The future of tanks in the light of the fighting in Ukraine

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The future of tanks in the light of the fighting in Ukraine
Tanks will not disappear, but may change beyond recognition


The ongoing hostilities in Ukraine have simply overturned a number of ideas about how the Armed Forces should be organized and equipped. This applies mainly to the Ground Forces, in the case of fleet what many authors have long warned about has been confirmed - the state of the fleet is inadequate to the threats, instead of development, its crude but expensive imitation takes place.



In the case of combat aviation also revealed the need for major changes.

But the Ground Forces have shown that what is needed is a complete revision of the concepts.

From approaches to planning operations, to the tactical and technical characteristics of military equipment, from the organization of a motorized rifle squad to the ranking of the combat properties of armored vehicles.

Previously, the author has already raised questions about how the troops are to change, for example, we can cite articles “How not to prepare for the last war instead of the next one?”, "Heavy armor for the Russian infantry" and a number of others.

In the proposed material, an attempt is made to briefly consider such an issue as the future of the appearance of tanks, in the light of how the fighting in Ukraine has changed.

In order to make some assumptions on this issue, it is worth starting with the differences in the conditions in which tanks actually operate from those for which they were created, and how their performance characteristics and design features correspond to these conditions.

Ukrainian battlefield


The fighting in Ukraine demonstrated the following specifics of the combat use of tanks.

Firstly, in the context of the unprecedented scale of the use of Javelin anti-tank systems, RPG NLAW, FPV-drones and heavy quadrocopters with mortar drop devices, the amount of ammunition hitting the tank in the roof exceeded all forecasts and calculations.

Prior to the entry of the RF Armed Forces into hostilities in Ukraine, there were various assessments in the expert community of the effectiveness of those anti-tank weapons that Ukraine received from Western countries, from dismissive to fear that they would bring heavy losses to our troops, along with statements that competent tactics and the interaction of tanks with other branches of the armed forces will reduce these losses to acceptable levels, but no one was really ready for what happened.

For the first few days, it seemed that Ukraine simply could not realize the potential of all anti-tank weapons, which she received, and in the long run, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had problems with NLAW, in particular with maintaining battery charge, but as a result, the losses of the RF Armed Forces in tanks from hitting the roof turned out to be unacceptably high, even without taking into account the so-called. "brooch".

Thus, the first trend is clearly drawn - now most of the tanks are hit not in the forehead, but in the upper projection.

Does this mean that now it is necessary to sacrifice frontal armor in order to increase the protection of the tank from being hit from above?

Literally, no. Just because in other conditions our tanks may well face massive fire from tank guns, and frontal armor cannot be sacrificed.

But how then to be? A technically equally protected tank cannot be realized.

Let's fix this as an important contradiction - you need to build up both the forehead and the roof, but in such a way as to remain in a reasonable mass of the hull and tower.

At the same time, an important point should be noted - no active defense system (KAZ) can protect a tank - simply because there can be too many attacks from above, massive and cheap FPV drones allow you to attack the tank many times, which will lead to the rapid shooting of all KAZ charges, and to the subsequent defeat of a tank that has lost its ability to defend itself.

Secondly, the situational awareness of the opposing sides on the battlefield had a major impact on the conditions for the combat use of tanks.

SWO in Ukraine - the first case in stories, where the situational awareness of even junior commanders is absolute - they can observe the entire neutral zone in front of their positions along the entire width of the sector of the front designated for defense or the offensive zone, and to a depth of several kilometers to more than ten. At higher command instances, awareness is even higher - up to tens of kilometers.

This was not the case before. Now it is almost impossible for a tank to reach direct fire range covertly, or at least so quickly as not to get under artillery fire and FPV drone strikes.

One of the consequences of this state of affairs was the massive use of indirect fire (ZOP), from a range of at least twice the usual range of actual fire on a visually observed target. In part, tanks have become self-propelled field artillery - but only in part, since traditional tank battles still take place regularly.

We can say that another task has been added to the traditional role of a tank on the battlefield - firing from the PDO from a range of 6-9 km.

At the same time, such shooting is not a new invention, this is how the Americans fired while they were armed with tanks with 90-mm guns, this is how our tankers fired in the 50s and 60s of the last century, until the tanks T- 62 with a smoothbore gun, which has a shorter barrel life than rifled guns, and the worst aerodynamic shape of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile.

Nevertheless, for modern tank troops, this is precisely a new form of combat use.

Thirdly, and this follows from the previous paragraph, the adjustment of fire from a tank gun with the help of a small unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) - a quadcopter (copter) has acquired particular importance.

It was the copter that made shooting from a tank gun with a smooth barrel with a PDO quite accurate, especially in conditions when the firing tank and the UAV operator working with it have special software for adjusting fire (for example, by gaps observed from the copter).

As a somewhat specific feature of the conditions of the situation, it is worth designating the need to somehow ensure the very interaction with the copter - there is no place in the tanks for the UAV operator, there is no place for the copter either. Another important point is that with all the need for a copter, its control channel can often be detected by enemy electronic intelligence.

If we assume that a way to control the copter from the side of the tank is found, then such a tank will very quickly be hit by enemy artillery forces. And this problem also needs a solution.

Another important point - all of the above does not cancel all the previously existing requirements for tanks, since it is not at all a fact that the specific conditions of Ukraine will be completely repeated in the next wars, most likely, what the Armed Forces encountered in Ukraine will be combined with conventional conditions for the use of tanks.

Let's analyze how all the above features of the conditions in which tanks are used will change their appearance.

The threat from above and adaptation to it


First of all, it is worth detailing the issue not only taking into account the current situation, but also taking into account trends.

To date, loitering ammunition has appeared in the Russian Federation, capable of independently recognizing targets on the battlefield and attacking them. This is a further development of the now famous "Lancet", the so-called "Product 53".

Moreover, a group of enthusiasts producing FPV drones for the troops created a variant with homing, the operator just needs to take such a drone to an area where a target will fall into the field of view of his camera, and then he will aim at it himself.

It can be said that while the algorithms that control such attacks are imperfect, however, their polishing is a matter of no more than a year.

In 2024, strike UAVs that independently select and attack a target will already be commonplace.

The algorithm that selects a target for defeat in the viewed picture is not much more complicated than the one that selects a person's face when photographing the latter with a mobile phone. And this is where things start to get interesting.

If the homing system of a loitering ammunition or an FPV drone can independently detect a tank and aim at it, then can it aim at its vulnerable part?

So far, most likely not, but this, again, is an issue that can be resolved "within the year."

And now we look at modern tanks from above.

For example, the latest prototype of the T-14 Armata tank. It is perfectly clear that a sufficiently accurate loitering ammunition can hit directly into the hatch or near it.


It must be clearly understood that the frontal armor of the tank is several times thicker than the top, and this cannot be fixed - an equally protected tank will be too heavy for any engine existing in the world and for tracks of any realistic width, it is unrealizable.

So - in the battles of the future "Armata" will fly directly into the roof of the habitable compartment.

Of course, some of the attacks will be beaten off by KAZ.

But to understand the scale - only one of the "creative associations" created with the help of Russian volunteers has delivered under 50 FPV drones to the front, and this cannot be compared with the capabilities of any military-industrial complex to supply missiles hitting a tank from above, such as those or Javelin. In the foreseeable future, cheap FPV drones will be able to be delivered to the front in the millions.

The expected number of roof-hitting weapons per kilometer of front has already increased by at least two orders of magnitude compared to old forecasts, and this is just the beginning.

No KAZ, no protection can cope with such an amount, the tank must have armor on top.

As a second example, let's take the American "Abrams" - a thin roof over the driver. Evil tongues claim that the rupture of a 100-mm projectile, driven into the joint between the hull and the turret above the driver's hatch, breaks through it with a shock wave and kills the driver. It is obviously difficult to check, but the armor there really will not withstand any serious impact, as, apparently, with the "Armata".

As a plus, the Americans can put a small width of the "coffin" of the driver - if it gets closer to any of the sides, it will not be the control compartment that will be hit, but the fuel tank, between which the mechanic driver of this tank is sandwiched. From above, it is partially covered by the gun barrel.

But ammunition, even with primitive artificial intelligence, may well get where it needs to be.


At the same time, you need to understand that these are not errors. The creators of the tanks proceeded from the installation, which was absolutely correct up to Ukraine, that the most likely for a tank is a projectile hit in the frontal projection - and up to a certain point this was the case. The frontal projection of all of them is protected. No one could predict how the battlefield would change.

What to do with the new threat?

The answer is that the architecture of the tank hull needs to be revised. Since it is impossible to combine the large thickness of the upper and lower frontal parts (VLD and NLD) and the roof of the hull and turret, then you will have to combine “two in one” - the VLD and the roof should become one part, and savings in mass should be ensured by minimizing its area compared to area of ​​conventional VLD, NLD and roof.

Some ideal shape, which we now need to strive for, is shown in the figure below.


An unattainable goal is the shape of the hull, in which there is almost no roof, it is combined with frontal armor, both on the hull and on the turret. Due to this, mass is saved - there is no thick roof. This will have to be striven for. It is also worth paying attention to the angles of the vertical aiming of the gun - this is also very important

The tank has no hull roof and almost no turret roof, there are inclined armored parts: VLD / hull roof and frontal part of the turret.

The slope also provides high resistance to frontal shelling due to the armor angles, and at the same time provides increased protection from weapons that hit the tank from above.

Naturally, it’s easier to draw than to do, such a tank will have a lot of layout problems, it will not be convenient for the crew, the designers will have to suffer, providing, for example, the ability to leave a wrecked tank with a jammed turret, and, apparently, like this in its purest form It won't work, but that's exactly what you need to strive for.

In an interesting way, if we talk about the shape of the hull, then the Soviet tanks that have been criticized for many years in a row turned out to be closest to the ideal - for example, below - the T-72. It can be seen that the VLD was made within the framework of such an ideology, although the vulnerable area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe hull - part of the turret sheet with the driver's hatch is still there.


The shape of the hull of Soviet tanks suddenly turns out to be much closer to the required one than anything else.

As for the towers, all the tanks in the world have them not adapted to protect against roof-hitting weapons, especially future loitering ammunition with autonomous homing.

What else needs to be noted?

Placing an ammo rack or an automatic loader in the aft niche of the tank turret now looks somewhat ambiguous.

On the one hand, such an arrangement really provides greater safety for the crew in case of fire in the ammo rack, but on the other hand, if even a penny FPV drone with weak non-tandem cumulative ammunition is hit in the knockout panels of the compartment with the ammo rack, the tank is guaranteed to be disabled.

Naturally, this does not mean that we should blindly go to the old Soviet scheme, but the Western scheme for placing an ammunition rack or an automatic loader in the aft niche of the tower is no longer adequate.

Now we are moving from layout solutions to active protection.

Of course, active protection is needed, moreover, there are certain developments in simplified detection systems compared to the Afghanit.

However, one must clearly understand that it is technically impossible to place KAZ ammunition sufficient for future threats on a tank.

What to do?

It is necessary to single out FPV drones as a separate threat and equip tanks with a separate tool to deal with it.

KAZ will have to deal with incoming missiles. With low-speed loitering ammunition compared to them and FPV drones, special machine-gun installations working in conjunction with KAZ will have to fight.

Practice shows that with a sufficient density of fire from small arms, a copter (and an FPV drone is, in fact, just that) can be shot down, as well as fragile loitering ammunition. The speed of these weapons is relatively low, and this gives some margin of time to fire at them.

Primary detection and target data (bearing, approximate range) can be issued by KAZ, then the installation should turn to aim at the target along this bearing and shoot.

Making an automatic guidance system for a machine gun that allows shooting down such small targets as a copter is not an easy task, but it can be solved.

However, the question arises of what the machine gun should be.

No variation of the Kalashnikov machine gun has the desired characteristics. Neither two- nor three-barreled installations based on such machine guns will provide the required density of fire.

The only solution is to use the GSHG-7,62 four-barreled machine gun as an “anti-drone” machine gun, which needs to be produced again.

Here, the Belarusian modification of this machine gun - 9-A-622, is of great interest, the difference of which is the use of an electric drive of the barrel block.


Machine gun 9-A-622. Approximately such a weapon should become the base for the "anti-aircraft guns" on the tank turret. Copyright on photo

Moreover, Belarus has developed a robotic fire system (ROK) "Berserk", armed with such machine guns.

Naturally, as soon as such an installation appears on the tank turret, then it is necessary to ensure the possibility of its use in manual control mode for targets other than air ones.

The next step in the creation of such installations should be the realization of the absolute insufficiency of the ammunition load of tank machine guns on our tanks. The GShG-7,62 and its Belarusian version have a huge rate of fire, and it will be necessary to create the desired density of fire.

And this means that the PKT machine gun ammunition numbers, traditional for Russia, measured by 250 rounds in a tape and a couple of thousand in total in a tank, will not work here. In truth, they are not suitable for coaxial machine guns either.

A simple example - in 2003 in Baghdad, holding strongholds inside the city limits for units of the 3rd Infantry Division turned out to be critically dependent on tank machine guns. Those interested can find some details of these fights on the Internet. What is important here? The fact that the Abrams tank has 11 rounds of 400 mm caliber for two machine guns and 7,62 rounds of 1 caliber for one heavy one. And they were used very intensively in Baghdad, having a decisive impact on the course of the battles for American strongholds.

To repel the massive attacks of FPV drones using a multi-barreled machine gun, you will need even more ammo. Moreover, it will not be possible to do the same as with the PKT, when there are 250 rounds of ammunition in the tape and after firing them the machine gun must be reloaded, the supply of cartridges must be continuous.

This goes against everything we've done before, but it's necessary if we don't want to lose expensive tanks and tankers to cheap FPV drones.

Shooting from a closed firing position


PDO shooting has become commonplace in the NWO, and, as mentioned above, the reason for this is the unprecedented level of situational awareness of the commanders of both sides. It is often simply impossible for a tank to be at direct fire range without falling under artillery fire.

There is no reason to believe that in future wars the level of situational awareness of the opposing sides will be lower, which means that this method of firing should be considered one of the regular ones, on a par with direct fire.


An American tank in Korea in a closed firing position, in this case with a ramp. Shooting without a ramp is also possible and applicable, only the range is less

Critical to long-range shooting is to provide a large vertical aiming angle (VAN).

Currently, for modern tanks, the limiting values ​​​​of UVN are -10 ... + 20 degrees. This is enough for direct fire at any distance. However, for accurate shooting from a closed position at a remote, visually unobservable target, this may not be enough.

Thus, it is necessary that the tank of the future has a higher value of positive air pressure - 30–35 degrees.

There is nothing unique in such angles, for example, for a light amphibious tank PT-76, the UVN is -4 ... + 30 degrees. A negative angle of -4 is extremely small for a main battle tank, -9 ... -10 degrees is normal.

But thirty "up" is a completely different matter. With the same or greater angle, shooting becomes possible over long distances and without bulk ramps.

An example from artillery - for a 76-mm divisional gun ZiS-3 UVN (for artillery, the correct “elevation angle”) is -5 ... + 37 degrees, for a divisional 85-mm D-44, respectively -7 and +35, that is, if tank positive maximum UVN - +30 ... +35, then this is enough. But such an angle requires different approaches to designing a tank turret. Just like booking adequate to modern threats.

Also, perhaps a new fire control system is required, correlated with such a task as shooting from the PDO and the corresponding sights. In turn, PDO shooting requires a different, higher level of situational awareness, now for the tank crew as well.

Situational awareness and interaction with UAVs


It makes no sense to write about the gigantic significance of copters, literally everyone knows about it. In the case of tanks, small Drones critically important both for reconnaissance, in order to avoid falling into an ambush or a sudden collision with the enemy, and for adjusting fire when firing from the PDO.

Combat experience suggests that, generally speaking, there should be two people in the calculation of the drone - the pilot and the navigator.

This will not work with a tank, but one operator assigned to a tank will often be needed. A copter is critically needed by every tank crew leading the battle. And here we come across an organizational limitation.

We have no place in the tank for an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) operator, and there is nothing to use it, no storage space, no battery charging capacity, no place to store a spare UAV, replaceable batteries, etc.

There are no antennas for this.

That is, the only UAV operator who can theoretically help the tankers is external, and he will sit on the radio channel.

Which is already a problem, since the radio stations on our tanks, including new ones, are not really compatible with anything, except for other tanks.

But even without taking into account this specifically Russian problem, the tank today needs its own UAV operator, for which there is no place in it.

In the case of tanks of existing designs, the problem is unsolvable - there is nowhere to put an additional person, a place for him in theory can only be found in Israeli Merkavs and long-obsolete T-34s, which are not in service, and which in their current form are unsuitable for participation in modern military actions.

The newest tanks are almost all the same. In "Armata" tankers sit in a single compartment, three people in a row, and the Americans adopted the same crew placement for their promising Abrams X with an uninhabited tower.


On Abrams X, the Americans repeated the layout of our T-14

At the moment, there is only one tank in the world that has a place for a specialist who is not part of the main crew, there is a separate control channel for unmanned aerial vehicles and a place for their placement.

This is a German experimental tank "Panther" KF51. This tank is equipped with an automatic gun loader, but instead of simply removing the gunner from the crew and reducing the armored volume, German engineers placed another crew member there, which means mainly the UAV operator.


Prototype of the main battle tank KF51 Panther. Photo: Wikipedia

With all the shortcomings of this machine, which is more of a concept demonstrator than a combat vehicle, unsuitable for mass production and has a lot of intractable shortcomings, it is impossible not to note the need for innovation with a reserve seat.

And this will also have to be repeated.

Before Ukraine, a crew of three was the main global trend, all tank-producing countries in the world were divided either into those who had already come to this, or those who would come to this.

Now the need to have a drone operator on board breaks this trend - now you need both an automatic loader and one more person in the crew.

Taking into account the previously stated requirements for armor, which will inevitably lead to a decrease in the usable volume in the tank, it will be very difficult to enter a fourth tanker there. But it will have to be done anyway.

The second tool that increases situational awareness will have to be a folding or telescopic mast with an optical-electronic surveillance or even sighting system that allows the crew to observe the situation from behind a vertical barrier, while remaining unobserved from the front.

Tank and quadcopter - integration in terms of technology


Let's outline what should be in the tank so that it can effectively interact with the copter.

In the minimum version, these are screens for displaying information from the commander and gunner, on which it would be possible to broadcast the image from the UAV cameras, moreover, the screens are color and larger, in the place of the UAV operator, too, plus a connector for connecting control points instead of the screen.

We need battery chargers, and with an eye on future new form factors, USB ports for charging from a portable charger or for charging a “power bank”. There must be a place to store quadcopters when folded, and a place for a case or stowage in which they can be carried out of the tank if necessary.

Antennas for controlling the copter via radio channel and a connector through which the use of an external antenna can be provided must be installed on the body.

The latter is very important, since often the Ukrainian artillery begins to work on the "illuminated" UAV operator within a minute or two after the start of work, their radio reconnaissance accurately detects the places where radio signals are emitted and the fact of data exchange between the copter and its operator.

On the one hand, there are ways to hide the fact that the radio control of the copter is working, there are technical solutions with directional antennas, a flight to the designated area without the participation of the operator is “on the way”, etc., but nevertheless, the ability to spread the tank and the antenna that unmasks it is needed, for example , when a dug-in tank in defense is used as a firing point.

Naturally, there should be such a trifle as a coil with an antenna cable protected from dirt, flames and theft.

At the place of the tank commander there should be a backup set of controls, in case of death or injury of the UAV operator.

If we don’t stop at the minimum, then we also need a landing pad on which the copter could be in motion without falling overboard and being protected from dirt, from which the operator could pick it up, including on the go, without opening his hatch (which is especially important, since with new approaches to the layout it is not known where this hatch will be located). Technically, such a platform is just a box attached to the tower, at the bottom of which there is a copter.

In a very luxury version, it will be a partially mechanized device in which the copters are stored, and from where they are launched, and where they then return to, if necessary.

Then you will have to somehow ensure the battery charge without human intervention, but the person will not have to leave the booked volume.

Another important innovation should be the ability to control UAVs over an optical fiber cable.

At the moment, it is the UAV control over the cable that is the only guaranteed way to avoid detection of its work by means of electronic intelligence. When operating in conditions where the operation of radio equipment will immediately cause an accurate artillery strike, the use of UAVs will be dangerous for the tank.

The cable is a solution for such a case, it sharply limits the maneuvering of the UAV, but does not unmask the tank in the electromagnetic range.

The copters should have a parallel cable control channel, and the tank should have a coil with an optoelectronic cable and a mechanism for releasing / reeling it so that the drone does not have to pull the cable with engines.

The cable should be located in such a way as to minimize the time spent by the UAV operator connecting it to the copter outside the reserved volume.

It is highly desirable that the tank, if necessary, be able to transmit the “picture” to other tanks or the unit commander to his tactical information display terminal.

This will require a completely different approach to communications than is shown in the RF Armed Forces, but it is really necessary so that one tank can be the eyes of a platoon or company, and the commander can receive more objective information than a voice report.

Other solutions


Closing the question, it is necessary to list a number of solutions that are either needed right now and can even be tested on existing tanks, or must appear in the future on tanks with the appearance features described in the article.

The first is the need to equip the guns with programmers for a programmable high-explosive fragmentation projectile and, by analogy with American tanks, an FMS capable of aiming such a projectile at an air target.

Shooting a projectile with a programmable detonation at helicopters is, of course, exotic, especially considering the range from which modern helicopters work on targets, but such a projectile will make it possible to effectively hit lying and even dug-in infantry. The combination of the ability to fire from the PDO, precise adjustment of fire from the UAV and a high-explosive fragmentation projectile with a programmable detonation will be a completely lethal combination for any enemy and will allow the tank to effectively deal with dispersed and dug-in infantry, being outside the range of the actual fire of its anti-tank weapons and its dug-in tanks, limited to direct fire.

At the same time, the high flatness of the trajectory of a tank projectile will make it difficult to determine the exact location of the counter-battery radar tank.

The second requirement follows from this requirement - the expansion of the ammunition line, which should include a projectile with a programmable detonation. But not only him.

Firing from closed firing positions requires a high-explosive fragmentation projectile with different aerodynamics, providing better accuracy when firing at extreme distances. Technically, the development of such a projectile is possible, and there is nothing to invent here, while old shells may well be used until stocks are exhausted.


125 mm OFS. It can be seen that the aerodynamic scheme is far from perfect.

A laser-guided projectile looks logical.

Tanks now use guided missile rounds using a laser-beam guidance system, which require the gunner to observe the target being fired at through the scope and control the missile's flight.

And we should be talking about a high-explosive fragmentation projectile that could be aimed by infantry from the front line using a portable laser designator, while the tank would be behind the infantry battle formations.

Unusual, but requiring elaboration, is the idea of ​​​​launching loitering ammunition through a tank barrel.

Being fired with a very weak explosive charge, such ammunition could be controlled by the UAV operator on board the tank through the standard UAV controls. Such ammunition could be used where it is impossible to hit a target with a conventional shot, for example, when an enemy tank is hidden behind a building.

This use of disposable kamikaze UAVs is more rational than what the Germans came up with in the Panther, where there is a separate launcher for 4 UAVs.

Apparently, the use of such ammunition will launch a new round of their evolution, which now can only be guessed at.

Also, the appearance of a modification of the Lancet strike UAV in the transport and launch container makes it possible to place such containers on the tank turret and use these UAVs as a strike tool if necessary.

It is necessary to multiply the ammunition load of the coaxial machine gun.

Another innovation is the need to install external telephone intercoms on tanks.

The “tank telephone” is intended for emergency communication of any serviceman with the tank crew; structurally, this is a telephone set installed outside the tank and connected to the tank intercoms of the tankers.

In an emergency, when a soldier does not have time to resolve the issue through his commander and the radio network of the unit, he, if the tank is nearby, can directly contact the crew, bringing to him information, for example, about a firing point that has shown itself, which the tankers do not see, or about that there are mines ahead on the road. This phone is not a substitute for radio communications and has a different purpose than radio communications between infantry and tankers. This is just an emergency.

The US Marines and Army have been using these phones since 1943. On the M1 Abrams tanks, the Americans removed the telephone, since the noise level from the gas turbine engine outside the tank is very high, and, as it was believed, it would interfere with talking, but after the start of the war in Iraq, the phones had to be returned, it turned out that it was inconvenient to fight without them, and losses in troops higher than they should be.

Similarly, since 2002, all main battle tanks of the British Armed Forces have also been equipped with such phones.


An American soldier talks to a tank crew in Iraq. Photo: Wikipedia

Unlike work for the future, equipping with telephones is also possible for combat tanks, and this must be done. However, now there are much more important problems with communication, but in the future, this one also needs to be addressed.

As for a promising tank, such phones should be on it right away, “by default”. Together with full-fledged communication systems, and not instead of them, of course.

The last thing worth noting is the gun.

For a long time, the inability of the domestic industry to create a sufficiently effective 125-mm armor-piercing projectile gave rise to a desire to switch to a larger caliber, which, in turn, gave impetus to the development of increased caliber tank guns, of which the implementation of the 152-mm 2A83 tank gun went the farthest.

The experience of fighting in Ukraine, however, showed that a 125-mm gun (in the future it will be 2A82) with the latest shells is sufficient to deal with any armored targets. Thus, the development of a 152-mm gun should be carried out as an experimental one for some distant future and work to achieve an acceptable barrel resource for this gun, but in general, with a high degree of probability, a 125-mm 2A82 or its further development in the same caliber will be sufficient for the future tank.

Conclusion


From the theory of evolution it follows that the fittest survives. Adaptability and adaptability to changing conditions, unfortunately, turned out to be not the strongest side of our society and the Armed Forces. The course of the Ukrainian conflict speaks precisely about this - there are changes, but they are completely insufficient, as a result, our country is still very far from victory, although the NWO has been going on for a year and a half.

However, this will not always be the case, moreover, under favorable circumstances, it will not be so for long. And this means that already now it is necessary to conduct a thorough analysis of the lessons of this SVO and work for the future.

Tanks are the backbone of the Ground Forces' strike power, but the military innovations of the NMD have led to a colossal increase in their losses in battles. Now an evolutionary leap is needed - tanks must adapt to new realities. This, apparently, will lead to the need to abandon those achievements that are now considered the latest, for example, the T-14 Armata tank clearly does not fully meet the new threats and does not ensure the realization of all the capabilities of the tank on the battlefield, its survivability against new threats will also be in question.

Perhaps it’s even good that this tank “didn’t work out”, and it’s worth using the experience gained during its creation to move on to a new project, taking into account the experience of the SVO in Ukraine.
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  1. +2
    30 August 2023 05: 40
    The ongoing hostilities in Ukraine have simply turned a number of ideas about how the Armed Forces should be organized and equipped with what

    These words need to be carved into granite...
    1. +15
      30 August 2023 08: 18
      Quote: Luminman
      These words need to be carved into granite...

      It's easy to knock out in granite. But try to drive them into the heads of shoulder strap carriers with big stars. These heads are no harder than granite.
      1. +9
        30 August 2023 09: 24
        The same old joke in the subject.
        The foreman in front of the line of recruits asks the question "What is the most important thing in the army?"
        "Private Petrov?"
        - To become an excellent student in combat and political training, comrade foreman.
        - Yes, it is necessary, but it is not the main thing.
        - Private Ivanov?
        - Comrade foreman will learn to defend the Motherland.
        Yes, it's important, but it's not the main thing.
        And so on.
        - So, sons, I answer the question. In the army, the most important thing is to get drunk.
        - Comrade foreman, how is it?
        - I'm showing.
        He takes an iron stake, puts it on the turret of the tank and, with a running start, hammers it into the tank with his head up to the hat.
        - Here are the sons, in two years everyone should be able to do the same.
        Two years have passed, there is a system of demobilizations, the foreman comes out.
        - Well, sons zadubeli?
        “That’s right, comrade sergeant-major.”
        - Ivanov forward.
        Ivanov runs up and drives a stake in half.
        - Petrov forward.
        The same picture.
        And so the whole platoon.
        The foreman decided to try it himself. The same story.
        He opens the hatch of the tank, and there the major leans his head against the armor and sleeps.
  2. +5
    30 August 2023 05: 41
    Reading inspired
    The technical inspection commission arrived at the tank unit. A drunk lieutenant comes out of boxing and, having seen the general, approaches him with a marching step:
    - Comrade General! The commander of the tank corps, Lieutenant Petrov!
    - How long I serve, I have never seen a lieutenant in the position of a corps commander.
    - It's simple. They drank the engine, they drank the chassis, they drank the cannon, only one body remained ...
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 08: 32
      The commander of the tank corps, Lieutenant Petrov!
      The joke is very old, at the time of my youth it did not sound like this:
      The commander of the tank corps, Lieutenant Petrov!

      and like this:
      The commander of a separate tank corps, Lieutenant Petrov!
      smile
  3. +2
    30 August 2023 07: 27
    Alexander, I welcome you! In general, I fully agree with what is stated in the article, but let me put in my 5 cents.

    You forgot such an important thing as an additional electric generator that allows you to power the electronic systems of the tank without turning on the main engine, which allows you to hide thermal radiation, reduce fuel consumption and save the life of the main power plant.

    As for the new type of ZPU, this is not the first time in more than a year and a half that I recall an attempt to modernize the T-64 tank under the symbol "E" by the Kharkov Design Bureau (which was the subject of a corresponding article on VO). There, a module with a twin GSh-23 gun was installed on the tank turret. Why not a thunderstorm for drones? Here you have a good caliber and a high rate of fire and good accuracy. And if there are no drones in sight, such a cannon can be used to "parse" long-term and not very enemy fortifications. Plus, as far as I remember, the pilots had three or four types of ammunition for it, including high-explosive fragmentation.
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 08: 47
      Quote: Dante
      twin gun module GSh-23

      as an anti-aircraft gun only if there is an air-blasted sniper, otherwise they will be ineffective and the ammunition will quickly run out
      1. +5
        30 August 2023 10: 02
        23 mm and is ineffective with detonation, the fragmentation flow is too weak, it will be necessary to shoot them like crazy, no ammo will be enough if you shoot at a long distance. And putting a tank on the roof is expensive and hard.
        1. +3
          30 August 2023 19: 39
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          23 mm and with undermining is ineffective
          A machine gun is also unlikely to help: the target is painfully small, but it flies fast and low. One plus - it definitely flies to the protected object. IMHO, you need to dig in the direction of a large-caliber automatic shotgun. Large, because the buckshot will need to be large enough not only to damage the UAV, but to knock it off the trajectory.
          1. +2
            30 August 2023 21: 35
            Quote: bk0010
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            23 mm and with undermining is ineffective
            A machine gun is also unlikely to help: the target is painfully small, but it flies fast and low.
            And if you dream ... The laser is much more efficient. There is no need for a bookmaker, or to determine the distance and speed, or to give a lead. I shoot as I see it. But are there lasers of sufficient power to hit a drone with one or two short pulses, and at the same time so that it is compact enough to put on the roof of the tower, and so that the power of the generator is enough to charge it?
            And another idea, to put a combat module (well, let's say, a small-caliber autocannon plus a rifle-caliber machine gun) on the VLD, since there is enough space with a margin. Yes, the nearest heavy machine gun, if it does not completely sweep it off the armor, then disable it. But the tank itself will only lose some small part of its combat capabilities, and will be able to continue the combat mission. In addition, in the same way, a machine gun will disable the module if it is mounted on the roof of the tower. And the roof of the tower should be given entirely for protection from drones and other roof thieves.
            And another idea. In such a wedge-shaped layout, it makes sense to stick the MTO forward according to the Merkava model, and move the habitable compartment to the rear of the hull, then (especially if you put an uninhabited tower) there will be no hatches from above, entry / exit / evacuation through the stern.
            1. 0
              1 September 2023 01: 13
              Quote: Nagan
              And another idea. In such a wedge-shaped layout, it makes sense to stick the MTO forward according to the Merkava model, and move the habitable compartment to the rear of the hull, then (especially if you put an uninhabited tower) there will be no hatches from above, entry / exit / evacuation through the stern.

              And you know, there was a project with such a lineup. But it was at the turn of the 80s and 90s at the competition program "Improvement". With such a layout of the fighting compartment and an entrance through the back door, even a two-gun tank with 152 mm was presented. cannon. Two-link is, of course, too much, but I like the fighting compartment in the aft.
              Under current conditions, you can take a slightly lowered TBMP T-15 hull, and install a T-95 turret instead of a bonnet module. And the crew capsule is in the stern.
            2. 0
              1 September 2023 05: 32
              There are already lasers. Turks and Jews. Like they work. It remains to trim the dimensions. And the tank has enough power to pull the laser. For the duration of its action, you can stand.
    2. +3
      30 August 2023 10: 05
      You forgot such an important thing as an additional electric generator that allows you to power the electronic systems of the tank without turning on the main engine, which allows you to hide thermal radiation, reduce fuel consumption and save the life of the main power plant.


      This is already in Armata, the Tula diesel engine is standing there.

      There, a module with a twin GSh-23 gun was installed on the tank turret.


      Unreasonably difficult and expensive to protect against FPV in short
    3. 0
      30 August 2023 15: 23
      The most optimal solution is a 30 mm chain autocannon.

      1. +5
        30 August 2023 20: 23
        Don't call a chain gun a "chain autocannon" please, it's technically incorrect, there are no chains
        1. +2
          30 August 2023 21: 07
          Well, yes, not very Russian. This refers to the electric circuit, Automatic gun with an electric drive - a long time to write.
      2. +1
        1 September 2023 01: 21
        Quote from cold wind
        The most optimal solution is a 30 mm chain autocannon.

        In our case, this is quite simple to implement - we take the combat module from the BTR-82A and install it on the MBT turret. The commander controls it and fires, combining observation of the battlefield and firing at identified targets. Well, the target designation function for the gunner.
        And yes - the term "chain gun" in Russian translation sounds ridiculous and clumsy.
    4. +1
      30 August 2023 16: 19
      There will not be enough ammo for work on copters, in this regard, either a gshg or the development of a new machine gun under 5,45 type XM214 microgun under 5,56 ... Because it is the volume of ammo in this case that is more important than power ...
  4. +1
    30 August 2023 08: 14
    About rapid-fire machine guns. Maybe it makes sense to blow off the dust from the ShKASs lying in the warehouses? In multi-barreled devices, and even with an electric drive, there are too many things that, in principle, can break. And in combat conditions, even something that, in principle, cannot break, will break, especially considering that the machine gun will be fixed on the outside and is not protected from anything.
    Just don't say they're out of stock. In Soledar alone, there are kilometers of galleries littered with boxes, in which all kinds of different shooters, domestic, imported, and trophy, lie in lubrication, often factory-made. If you search, you will find. And in the archives there should be complete design and technological documentation, according to which it is possible to resume production.
    1. +1
      30 August 2023 10: 03
      In multi-barreled devices, and even with an electric drive, there are too many things that, in principle, can break.


      There is a GSHG without an electric drive.
      In general, everything depends on the rate of fire.
      1. -1
        30 August 2023 14: 58
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        There is a GSHG without an electric drive.
        In general, everything depends on the rate of fire.

        More like accuracy. By the way, initially KAZs were supposed to be machine-gun
      2. +1
        30 August 2023 20: 58
        After all, the 7,62 GShG machine gun always had an electric drive, but the 12,7 YakB machine gun has a combined, torsion-gas drive of automation.
    2. +1
      1 September 2023 05: 29
      So it is. But the real reliability of the ShKAS is still not for landmen. Yes, and there is a special cartridge.
  5. +2
    30 August 2023 08: 18
    It is easier to solve the problem tactically. Namely, the introduction into the battle order of machines to combat UAVs.
    1. +1
      30 August 2023 10: 32
      This is an illusion. Firstly, this is immediately an abrupt growth in the number of l / s, moreover, in the conditions of a demographic failure.
      Secondly, what will the tanks do if this vehicle is lost?
      Thirdly, the financial question, whether a machine gun, or a whole combat vehicle.
      1. +5
        30 August 2023 13: 59
        The article is interesting, but, it seems to me, about the UAV operator, this is superfluous. For some reason, now many consider that tanks and planes are cut off from the rest of the structure. In my opinion, the same Armata or Su-57 is primarily a network-centric "player". In this case, network-centric capabilities, their development and application come to the fore. And in this case, neither the UAV nor the tank operator is needed. But reliable communication with good channels for transmitting and receiving large amounts of information, and not from one UAV, but from an intelligence complex, is much more important. And it’s better for the UAV operator not to sit in the tank, but tens of kilometers away.
        And if suddenly a tank (or plane) finds itself "alone in an open field", then no UAV with an operator (or "stealth") will help him much.
        1. +2
          30 August 2023 14: 04
          In my opinion, the same Armata or Su-57 is primarily a network-centric "player". In this case, network-centric capabilities, their development and application come to the fore. And in this case, neither the UAV nor the tank operator is needed.


          Yes and no.
          On the one hand, indeed, within the framework of a large system, it is possible to provide an external control center or transfer intelligence data on board.
          On the other hand, it is clear from practice that such interaction regularly collapses, in addition, the RER now cuts even datalinks inside the air defense system, for example, and immediately flies through them, in the case of using HIMARS, this is a 100+ km range.
          Therefore - not a fact, so to speak.
          The Germans position their specialist as a replacement crew member, I would most likely do the same, but there should be a place for him
          1. +1
            30 August 2023 15: 25
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            their specialist is positioned as a replacement crew member, I would most likely do the same, but there should be a place for him

            The new European EMBT tank also has 4 crew members, where instead of the loader, the operator or another person.
      2. 0
        30 August 2023 17: 03
        Thank you for the article. But here I agree with Victor. Firstly, protection from UAVs is required not only for tanks, but also for self-propelled guns, infantry fighting vehicles, etc. At one time, tanks successfully covered from Shilka aircraft, then from Tunguska helicopters, then Terminator was needed from anti-tank systems, now you need a specialized machine from a UAV. The problem of combating UAVs must be solved comprehensively for a unit or for a position, and not individually for each type of armored vehicles. Secondly, the idea with the rapid-fire GShG-7,62 is good in terms of abandoning the 12,7-mm caliber as an individual tank anti-aircraft weapon. But with a rate of fire of 3500-6000 rds / min, even for ammunition with a rifle cartridge, this is two or three bursts of an extremely small object with excellent maneuverability. And with the imperfection of the means of detection, control and guidance, it is not a fact of successfully repelling an attack. One proposal was voiced by Viktor, another - the transition to a 5,45-mm caliber and six barrels according to the Gatling system (an increase in the ammo ready for firing and rate of fire with smaller dimensions and weight).
        1. +1
          30 August 2023 21: 14
          Following the legendary phrase, “Everything has already been invented before us.”
          We need a system that destroys everything flying and hovering within a radius of up to 200 meters, more is not needed.
          Rate of fire and reliability are the most important aspect after detection, and if the mechanics are difficult and expensive, then come electronics and lasers. Lasers take a long time and are expensive, but the “Metal Storm” system is just right, various ammunition and a minimum of mechanics with a frantic rate of fire.


          1. +3
            1 September 2023 01: 55
            Quote: merkava-2bet
            "Metal Storm"

            Yes, just an automatic shotgun that shoots buckshot. It will then create a striking "field of fragments" at a distance of 100 - 200 m. And the search system is not on a radar with 4+ canvases, but an OLS that scans space and has typical target images and an algorithm for their destruction in memory. Laser rangefinder to help determine the line of opening fire.
            And the tanks themselves, taking into account the experience of large losses and the difficulty of replenishing them during the war, should become again ... simpler, cheaper and more numerous. In war, quantity always beats quality. And all the control and firing of the tank should be as simple and intuitive as possible for the crew.
            Maximum serial production on proven and proven platforms, uniformity and unification. Big Battalions always win.
            1. +2
              1 September 2023 05: 23
              If you make a unit like an AGS with remote detonation, it may be even more interesting. Although, it's easier than the shotgun principle, it's hard to come up with something.
            2. +1
              1 September 2023 05: 25
              The most interesting thing is that ordinary American soldiers from farmers brought the shotgun to the war. Not blinded by all sorts of European military theories. Just like drones now.
              1. 0
                1 September 2023 21: 30
                In NWO, shotguns against drones are also quite used for themselves. Hunting is no more difficult than duck hunting.
                1. 0
                  2 September 2023 12: 30
                  In the same way, it is safe to say that they were dragged to the battlefield by their ordinary soldiers. You can also, for example, mention chainsaws and small generators. Prior to this, the generals would never have thought of it at all. Our generators knew the service. For each dugout, this was not supposed to happen at all. We, in training, just the second company were electricians. They also had all sorts of generators. But we have always had light. And the rest - no)))). This is simply not enough for modern weapons.
                  What can I say, if the civilian Shoigu dragged showers and washing machines into the army. How long did it take the authorities not to realize their necessity!
            3. +1
              2 September 2023 12: 42
              Quote: bayard
              Yes, just an automatic shotgun that shoots buckshot

              There is a rational grain, but everyone spoils the nuances:
              The real distance of shooting by hunters and stand-builders-athletes at UNIFORMLY flying targets is 30-40 meters. When shooting even at 100 meters, for large buckshot, the average speed will be plus or minus 300 m / s, which is a third of a second. For a drone flying at a speed of 120 km / h, the displacement along the trajectory will be 10 meters. Yes, the trajectory as a whole is directed at the shotgun, but, any drone by itself inadvertently "maneuvers" due to turbulence and imperfection of control channels. And what will happen if he maneuvers deliberately, automatically? In this case, the chances of hitting from a turret with a shotgun will only be at close range.
              Therefore, we leave the buckshot to the hunters, and we will use high-speed arrow-shaped striking elements. And we will already have a second to hit the target. It seems to be enough, with a rate of fire of 5-10 rounds per second, we can take down any drone. But, for a synchronized attack of a couple of drones, this is catastrophically insufficient. For example, they fired three cartridges, waited for the result (this is already more than half a second), and either repeated for the same target, or transferred to the next one (and turning an installation weighing a hundred kg, in principle, cannot be instantaneous). Two drones in the diametrical plane will already create a situation on the verge, without the slightest margin.
              Therefore, we need at least a revolving system, or a Gatling system for a sharp increase in the rate of fire, and this is even more heavier and more expensive, and still the available time reserve will not change. Those. it directly makes sense to immediately switch to a rapid-fire machine gun. He will have much better time with a margin.
              But a machine gun, and to a lesser extent a shotgun with swept elements, has a significant disadvantage - an increased likelihood of "friendly" fire. Hundreds of bullets, with a lethal range of 1300 meters, for 5,45, flying not strictly in the direction of the enemy, but wherever God sends, this is not very good. And if it so coincides that on the trajectory of the line, half a kilometer away, there will be a truck with fighters? A dozen lives taken instead of three saved in a tank. And most importantly, the situation is not predictable, because no AI can predict who is there in a circle of 2,5 km, in which bushes or behind the fog. With such a KAZ, there is no need for an enemy.
              IMHO, the best and simplest solution would be a banal modification of KAZ Afghanit under a TURNED four to nine tube mortar, with a pointing angle of 360 / -10 + 90. Two such turrets on the sides will protect against almost any reasonably imaginable attack. For hundreds of drones attacking one tank are not vital. So much simply, in principle, a specific unit opposing a specific tank cannot have.
              Of course, friendly fire is also possible here. But the danger zone is extremely clear, and is a dozen or two meters. Do not go to your tank under the barrels and everything will be fine.
      3. 0
        1 September 2023 06: 29
        IMHO, in some cases, a vehicle for combating UAVs can generally replace a tank. If only to assign to it not only the fight against UAVs, but in general all the tasks of the tank, except for those related to the gun, and refuse the gun, because. in some cases it is not really needed. But we need a fight against enemy infantry, which is sitting in the bushes with ATGMs.

        And how to call it - the tenth question. BMP, BMPT or something else. Maybe it's a tank too. In the end, the British had "girl" tanks without a gun and without a turret back in WWI.

        I will write a little more about this below.
  6. -1
    30 August 2023 08: 46
    From the theory of evolution it follows that the fittest survives.
    That's what evolution is for, so that the most adaptable survive.
    The experience of the NWO shows that it is necessary to change the tactics of warfare towards drones and artificial intelligence, minimizing the role of people. The role of a person in such a war should be assigned only for management and decision-making, everything else should be done by robots. Whoever manages to realize this first will gain superiority over the enemy, because. the reproduction of robots in a developed industry will be faster than the birth of people. hi
  7. +1
    30 August 2023 09: 11
    Shaw to do. Equipment and the Armed Forces as a whole are preparing for the last war ...
    New features have arisen, in 15 years tanks will change for them.
  8. +1
    30 August 2023 09: 24
    It seems to me that it is easier to introduce the concept of action, relatively speaking, as a link. Well - as in aviation, the leader with the follower. Or like combat troikas, a sniper-grenade launcher-machine gunner. So it is here - the tank should not act alone, but exclusively, for example, with five. Two tanks, one Terminator-type crap for fighting infantry, one, for example, a self-propelled mortar, and - always one ZSU, sharpened specifically for defense against drones. All this should have armor equal to the tank one, and ZSU - the maximum rate of fire and ammunition for working at short distances. It would be nice to add local electronic warfare equipment to one of the machines. Something like this. For attempts to create equally protected armored vehicles are obviously doomed to failure.
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 09: 42
      When one machine fails, even for technical reasons, the link becomes inferior.
      1. +1
        30 August 2023 11: 48
        This means he is being taken out of the battle. This is better than trying to cook up something like a wunderwaffle.
  9. +1
    30 August 2023 09: 55
    since 2002, all British main battle tanks have also been equipped with such phones.
    T-34-85 of Czechoslovak construction also had such telephone equipment.
    https://topwar.ru/182857-prikljuchenija-tridcatchetverki-na-beregah-temzy.html
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 10: 00
      Thanks for the tip, didn't know about that.
  10. +1
    30 August 2023 11: 23
    "globally changes the concept of NWO"- well, yes, it changes .. but provided that the conflict is the same - almost without the Air Force .. and with the presence of the Air Force in the sky, it changes a lot, but not globally .. and big conflicts with developed countries will in any case be with Someone's Air Force is in the sky, and this is not quite the same concept, or not at all .. but the Armed Forces of Ukraine, in fact, are not "barmaley" and not an advanced army, something in between, thanks to supplies ..
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 13: 04
      When faced with the presence of air forces on both sides, the sides will fight in the sky for dominance, and the tanks will patiently wait to see who will win up there)) this is if we exclude nuclear weapons immediately and at the edge))
  11. 0
    30 August 2023 13: 00
    Considering that to protect a tank, drones can be shot down near the tank, the problem with the density of damaging elements can be solved with the help of “shotguns,” which makes it difficult to build an automatic shooter of 12(?) caliber (possibly more) with a mass of striking elements, I think three cartridges per drone, on approach to the tank it will be more than enough
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 14: 05
      what prevents the construction of an automatic shooter 12 (?) caliber (possibly more) with a mass of striking elements, I think there are three rounds per drone, there will be more than enough on approach to the tank


      Short range and large weight and size parameters
      1. +1
        31 August 2023 09: 11
        It is highly debatable, the dimensions are no larger than those of a machine gun (the boar 12 hammer, they are made on the basis of the PKK, it is a completely reliable device, to conjure with the ammunition supply system and norms), but why have a long range to shoot down an incoming kamikaze, 100 meters is enough for the eyes, flying shells The KAZ shoots down much closer to the tank and nothing happens.
  12. +2
    30 August 2023 14: 17
    The war in Ukraine shows that the tank needs all-round cover and its work: action from ambushes, or as a mobile gun, any entry into the enemy’s anti-tank weapons coverage area entails a high probability of tank death. No KAZ, increased armor, canopies, etc. do not lead to the salvation of the tank, but can help withstand one or two hits.
    And most importantly, what the war in Ukraine showed is that tanks are needed cheap and a lot, because it is better to have a T54 here than a T90 at 100 km, so the rise in the cost of tanks leads to a decrease in the number. Trying to protect the tank drives up the price and weight, making it a pointless pile of expensive iron, the loss of each vehicle is perceived as a horror.
  13. 0
    30 August 2023 14: 34
    Interestingly, it resembles "tanks", but what other USB connectors are there for grandma yaga))) in military equipment
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 20: 25
      Ordinary. Get used to it, this is the world we live in.
    2. 0
      1 September 2023 05: 19
      The simpler the better it works. A USB controller with a port costs nothing. And the special connector invented by the military, which can withstand a bullet hit, will cost like a car and work only with special means of communication.
  14. +1
    30 August 2023 14: 47
    You need to shoot at copters with shot (at least at short distances), then the issue of rate of fire will be much less acute. Plus less severe possible collateral damage from friendly fire.
  15. -1
    30 August 2023 15: 18
    Tanks are the basis of the striking power of the Ground Forces ....

    But the author completely forgot about this in his research, equated the tank to the self-propelled guns and, as a result, the fog floated away in his fantasies.
    What will the infantry do on the offensive if the tank sits behind the wall to shoot back from a closed position? Why is it needed at all then, is there an ACS?
    An armored combat vehicle is needed to cover the advancing infantry with armor and defeat the defending infantry and enemy equipment. This is where you need to start in your fantasies. This means that the tank must have means of defeating all those flying in the air, against which its armor is not intended, plus means of effectively defeating enemy infantry (do not offer a tank gun, too slow a means).
    And, in general, the author exaggerates the epochal nature of the appearance of drones in relation to tanks. Just another means of destruction, as before it there were cumulative shells, then guided missiles, now drones. The tanks chewed the previous wunderwaffles, they will chew this one too.
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 22: 28
      What will the infantry do on the offensive if the tank sits behind the wall to shoot back from a closed position?


      And what's the difference if the tankers from the copter see the targets and hit them with precision - from a closed position?

      Why is it needed at all then, is there an ACS?


      And if enemy tanks break through to our positions, how will the self-propelled guns fight when firing at direct fire? They have neither the appropriate armor, nor sights.
      How to attack at a stage when we have won the pace and can wage a war of maneuver?
      A tank remains a tank, PDO shooting is just another feature that didn't matter as much before.
      Judging by the nonsense that you write, you are probably a member of the editorial board. No?

      An armored combat vehicle is needed to cover the advancing infantry with armor and defeat the defending infantry and enemy equipment. This is where you need to start in your fantasies.


      You remind me of a homeless person who teaches me how to live as a successful person. There is no knowledge, there is no understanding of the issue under discussion, but the aplomb is a wagon.
      Can you throw in tank battles that were decisive for those wars in which they took place and in which the infantry DID NOT PARTICIPATE?
      Go study before you write nonsense. It's not for you to rant about other people's fantasies.

      And, in general, the author exaggerates the epochal nature of the appearance of drones in relation to tanks.


      The author understates. Drones will have the same impact on warfare as motorization did, and it's already obvious.

      The tanks chewed the previous wunderwaffles, they will chew this one too.


      Yes, the article is just about how and what to chew.
      1. 0
        31 August 2023 15: 14
        For a successful person who has knowledge and understanding, your fantasies are too stupid. They don't solve problems, they sidetrack.
        Each type of equipment in the Armed Forces has its own tasks. Simply because general purpose machines tend to be less efficient than specialized ones. The tank is designed to attack, break through the defense. Therefore, it is so armored, unlike self-propelled guns. If he stands when the infantry advances, the infantry suffers increased losses, because they have no tank armor. A tank without infantry will not be able to capture the line, simply because it is beyond its power to destroy enemy infantry in the trenches, which means it will finish it off. What part of what I said you do not understand?
        Your suggestion about sloped armor is nonsense. Because the carrier, turrets and engine cannot be placed on top of each other, in fact the armor area will be equal to the upper surface of the tank. Is this also unclear?
        Drones are just a new type of means of destruction applied to a tank. They will affect the means of reconnaissance radically (already have), but as means of destruction they will soon come to naught. Just because they are slow-moving and cumbersome in terms of combat load compared to missiles, they are inferior to them in everything except the cost. As soon as a means of destruction corresponding in cost is selected, this function of theirs will end. What do you not understand here?
        1. +2
          1 September 2023 05: 07
          Quite a few military theorists burned out on the slowness of drones. But in practice, low-speed nature leads to very high accuracy in pointing drones. And after all, the practice of prisoners teaches little. This was encountered back in 1982 in Syria. And all in the same place, give speed.
          Craftsmen in the trenches once again wipe their noses with highbrows.
      2. +1
        31 August 2023 17: 18
        Drones will have the same impact on warfare as motorization did, and it's already obvious.
        + + + + +
        There is a wonderful story by R. Sheckley about Armageddon involving robots.
        ;)
        1. +1
          31 August 2023 21: 18
          I don't remember exactly, but it seems to be called "Battle"
          1. 0
            1 September 2023 06: 48
            Is this where the robots eventually took the Mother of God to heaven?
            1. 0
              1 September 2023 17: 42
              Quote: Evil Eye
              Is this where the robots eventually took the Mother of God to heaven?

              Yes. But like a godfather. However, I will not argue.
      3. 0
        1 September 2023 05: 10
        A colleague should look at the tank and self-propelled guns standing nearby. The tank is like a sofa, and the self-propelled guns are like a closet. Saushka cannot even be hidden. And then it turned out that the flat projectile of the tank did not cut the radar.
      4. 0
        15 September 2023 20: 51
        Self-propelled guns have a sight for direct fire, study the issue more carefully. Modern sights allow you to control ATGMs without a separate remote control. Equipping self-propelled guns with ATGMs both to fight tanks and to increase the range of a direct shot is also not a problem.
    2. 0
      1 September 2023 05: 17
      Hm. Drones do not give life to anyone in this war. In terms of the amount of money spent on the effect, they surpass everything. Drones have made the battlefield transparent, you can see everything. And, as it turns out, electronic warfare is not a panacea. It's the drones. And not combat drones, on which everyone was betting. A lousy F-1, thrown off for sure, does as many things as a few shells can't do.
      Here I saw a video from jokes, as a man flew over the fence in the Phantom. I just took it with my hands and that's it. Here's another topic: fast transportation of soldiers over short distances. Or BK.
  16. 0
    30 August 2023 15: 21
    until the T-62 tanks with a smoothbore gun, which has a shorter barrel resource than rifled guns, went into service en masse,


    To the author and everyone versed in artillery. Explain so that even I understand why such a fright does a smooth barrel have LESS than a rifled one, and not vice versa? /sincerely perplexed/
    1. +2
      30 August 2023 20: 29
      The pressure in the barrel bore + the speed at which the projectile passes through the bore + its thickness.
      The resource of 2A46 is approximately 900 rounds, the resource of D-30 is 6000 rounds
      1. 0
        31 August 2023 16: 39
        They forgot to add the abrasive effect of powder gases on the internal cavity of the barrel.
    2. 0
      1 September 2023 05: 04
      On the tank, you have to save a lot of weight. And taking into account the survivability of the tank, they calculated that it would be better this way. And so, yes, the pressure in the channel of a smooth bore is incomparably greater. The walls of tank barrels, compared to rifled ones, are very thin. By the way, the smoothbore theory is all from the 19th century. Naval artillery was smoothbore longer than field artillery. It is precisely because of the ability to disperse the projectile more strongly. True, only the British.
    3. 0
      1 September 2023 06: 50
      As I understand it, this is because the tank gun is smooth precisely in order to fire a high-powered projectile. Hence the increased wear. Unlike the smooth barrel of a mortar or shotgun, which, on the contrary, are designed to work in a more gentle mode compared to rifled counterparts.
      1. 0
        2 September 2023 12: 18
        In general, yes. More precisely, to provide a projectile that has reached the limit in terms of mass, aerodynamics, hardness, etc., with more energy. The one that can no longer be reached in a rifled barrel. By reducing the firing range. Which the tank does not really need at the level of a rifled gun.
  17. +1
    30 August 2023 15: 29
    In general, I would talk about the division into 2 types of tanks.

    1. Tank of limiting parameters. Packed with all kinds of technology. But they will be few, because they are expensive.

    2. Infantry tank, infantry fighting vehicle with 100+ mm cannon. Cheap mass, which is not a pity to lose.
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 22: 33
      Cheap mass, which is not a pity to lose.


      In any case, it's a pity to lose tankers.
      1. 0
        30 August 2023 22: 39
        By focusing on crew survivability, losses can be kept to a minimum.
        A crewless option is also possible, but there are many controversial points.
  18. +2
    30 August 2023 16: 19
    And also to protect UAV operators from direction finding with subsequent artillery damage: it is possible to develop a box-borobok that imitates the operation of the UAV control channel. We place it in a deserted area and turn on the timer. We call fire in an open field. The number of shells the enemy has is a finite value anyway.
    1. -1
      30 August 2023 22: 30
      Oh yeah.
      You can't even imagine what development the theory of such games has received.
      Unfortunately, while the RF Armed Forces are not involved in such things, but their possibility is obvious and clear, I myself took part in events on this topic.
    2. 0
      1 September 2023 06: 52
      You can also place artillery simulators in the field. With blank shots.
      Where else would imitators of soldiers be found? Maybe prisoners of war will come? what
  19. +2
    30 August 2023 16: 44
    Another idea: can, in principle, abandon the tank gun? Instead, launchers for kamikaze UAVs with ramjet engines (for cheapness, for example). Firing of a UAV in the direction of the enemy - withdrawal by the operator/gunner to the target area - search and indication of the target - acceptance of the target for auto tracking/homing (by contrast or heat signature) - defeat. The advantage is the use of almost any caliber with high protection for the crew. You can remake old tanks. Lancet control system (adapted).
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 22: 31
      No, you can't refuse a gun, no way. The control system should be in the head of the shock bird, since this is already technically feasible and inexpensive. The operator should only correct the UAV, if necessary.
  20. Des
    0
    30 August 2023 18: 24
    Just ask): from the article "An American tank in Korea in a closed firing position in this case with a ramp. Without a ramp, shooting is also possible and is used, only the range is shorter."
    there is a ramp, but where is the closed firing position?
    1. +1
      1 September 2023 04: 57
      In general, shooting from closed positions is shooting at invisible targets. Invisible to the gunner. And not shooting from positions where you cannot be seen.
  21. 0
    30 August 2023 19: 35
    The most effective fight is not with fpv dorons, but with their operators. An analogue of anti-radar missiles. Smaller sizes and in much larger quantities. With accommodation both on helicopters and on a wheeled and tracked base
    1. +1
      30 August 2023 20: 25
      They will be autonomous in six months
      1. 0
        1 September 2023 06: 54
        Is it possible to extinguish them with radio pulses or in real life, and not in science fiction, is this impossible without nuclear weapons?
        1. 0
          3 September 2023 00: 24
          Is this impossible without nuclear weapons?

          Electromagnetic bomb. Developments have been carried out since the 50s and it seems that even the tests were successful in Soviet times.
  22. -2
    30 August 2023 22: 10
    A tank is a means of attack and it should go with infantry in armored personnel carriers, mine-clearing vehicles should go ahead and there should also be large numbers of drones ahead of the movement
    In theory, it’s time to make tanks without a crew, infantry is nearby and controls the tank, corrects tasks, drones mark targets, the tank shoots at targets.
    If you just use a tank without everything, no matter what it is, they will knock it down. Now it turns out that tank units are not needed, but brigades of infantry and tanks are needed, and so that they always train together and know each other.
    Personally, my idea is that it is necessary to create units from there three tanks, even more tank support vehicles for each, two in order to protect from the sides, well, even more infantry vehicles. Also, air defense vehicles are small. Also a drone control unit. If everything is together, then it will work. If taken separately, there will be no effect.
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 22: 32
      A tank is a means of attack and it should go with infantry in armored personnel carriers, mine-clearing vehicles should go ahead and there should also be large numbers of drones ahead of the movement


      You are just like the Ukrainians near Rabotino, really.
      Then you will be surprised that you have 120 burnt boxes in a circle with a diameter of 6 km
      1. -2
        31 August 2023 08: 14
        The idea of ​​a wedge-shaped tank shown by the author in the figure is so-so, the inclined front armor will have a larger area and weight, while the internal volume of the tank will be reduced compared to the classical design
        1. +1
          31 August 2023 22: 15
          Yes, and this is what I meant by the problem with developing the layout of such a tank.
          However, the task cannot be considered hopeless, see, for example, object 490 (without letters).
          1. -1
            1 September 2023 00: 48
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            However, the task cannot be considered hopeless,

            If we apply algorithms for solving inventive problems, then without describing the course of solving the result briefly:
            The ideal tank of the future is a monolithic turret hull in the form of a body of revolution - an arch (ellipsoid, paraboloid). Rotation due to tracks rotating under the tank (maybe two classic ones, or maybe five or six). The problem is the dimensions, transportation of a round tank by railway.
            This is so unusual that you immediately decide that it is complete idiocy. But new ideas are always welcome.
            1. 0
              1 September 2023 04: 54
              What! We made this kind of turtle tank. On 4 tracks. Very similar in concept. Moreover, the performance was very high.
            2. 0
              1 September 2023 06: 55
              Wait, is this by any chance a Leonardo da Vinci tank? belay
  23. 0
    31 August 2023 15: 59
    Hand face. The problem of providing the tank and the UAV operator with communications cannot be solved, so it is necessary to make a new tank with space for the operator. Logic, what to say.
    1. 0
      1 September 2023 04: 52
      You can't put anyone else in our tanks. Everything is tight. Increase the size - the weight will not crawl, it will fly.
  24. 0
    1 September 2023 04: 51
    Again and again the Merkava comes to mind. There is also a solution to the problems of placing drone operators - the landing compartment. Operators can even be dropped off. And put a lot of copters in there. There is also the possibility of evacuating the wounded not mentioned in the article. And communication with the infantry through this compartment. And the possibility of evacuation. And many other useful things. "Merkava" was just made for such a "viscous" war as it is now.
  25. +1
    1 September 2023 07: 00
    Personally, I always wrote in all holivars: it’s not specific models of tanks that are outdated (it’s clear here) and not a tank as a concept. Tank troops are obsolete as the main means of breaking through enemy defenses and developing success.

    Tanks have become more vulnerable, and in addition to the necessary work to determine the new look of tanks, their strategic role needs to be determined.
    If we summarize your articles on the suppression of air defense and overcoming the positional impasse, articles by other authors (in particular, Andrey Kolobov's article "On the role of VTOL aircraft in the combat operations of modern armies"), then the following picture emerges.

    In the era of the Second World War (to simplify), tanks (after artillery preparation and bombing) broke through the front and rushed deep into enemy territory, surrounding the enemy troops, cutting them off from the rear and disorganizing the rear itself, as well as pursuing the retreating. But now the anti-tank defense capabilities have grown a lot and drone attacks on the roof are already the last nail in the coffin of the old concept.

    Now, ideally, the enemy’s defense and rear should be softened as much as possible by strikes from tactical missiles, kamikaze drones, and, if possible, aviation, which should lead to a weakening of the troops and at least partial isolation of at least the area of ​​​​the proposed offensive (and even better, of course, along the entire line front). Then the artillery comes into play. Considering the realities, it is still necessary to adopt a Western view of artillery: it should be predominantly self-propelled and high-precision, with good armor. However, for her, shooting from a closed position on guidance from a drone should be the main mode.

    And only then - breaking through the line of defense, and taking into account the realities (mining, strengthening infantry weapons, etc.) it is better to try to minimize possible losses, which should lead to more complicated tactics.

    Among other things, the organizational structure of the troops is likely to become more complex. On the one hand, the horizontal interaction of different branches of the armed forces working on the same task (for example, the notorious request for an air strike directly "from the field", or, conversely, a request from the Air Force for the destruction of air defense systems by infantry). And on the other hand, the creation of special units dealing with their own special task. Including:
    • Aviation, solving strategic tasks (and separately - air defense suppression groups). Including unmanned aerial vehicles.
    • Gunners and drone pilots involved only in counter-battery combat.
    • Well-trained assault groups, which, in cooperation with engineering troops, will only clear the way for the bulk of the advancing troops: they will break into enemy fortified areas, remove mines, give target designation for aviation and artillery, etc., but at the same time they will not go further on the offensive on their own .
    • Possibly, troops for especially complex theater of operations, including for urban battles.
    • It is logical if, by analogy with the suppression of air defense and counter-barrier combat, there will be separate units engaged mainly in the fight against drones.

    It is quite possible that it will not always be possible to defeat the enemy with a dashing lightning attack, and then the breakthroughs will become only the final chord, and the “softening of the defense” will take most of the time and effort (even with all the efforts not to slide into position).
    [to be continued]
    1. 0
      2 September 2023 12: 14
      Still, the tank is vulnerable not because it is vulnerable in itself, but because it is the most dangerous thing on the front end. Therefore, the tank is a priority target. He is the most feared. And for this they made a bunch of all kinds of weapons to defeat the tank. You won’t hit - there is a risk of draping without a guarantee that you will run away. Or just die.
      That is why there is no replacement for him yet. And it's unlikely to be.
      1. 0
        2 September 2023 13: 32
        And helicopters, aviation - are not dangerous and are not afraid of them? wink
        1. 0
          4 September 2023 15: 18
          There was already an article about obsolete helicopters here laughing
  26. 0
    1 September 2023 07: 04


    [Continuation] Thus, tanks should appear on the battlefield already when the enemy is largely weakened. Obviously, this does not affect the need to defend against attacks from above (because you cannot transfer all the infantry with copters and javelins in advance), and therefore does not dispute the conclusions of the article about the shape of the tank hull, armor and anti-drone weapons.
    However, it is quite possible that these considerations may affect tank armament and, in general, the typology of tanks.

    Firstly, a certain amount of light equipment (including floating) will still remain in the troops, which means that it is necessary to somehow solve the issue of protection from drones and from it (taking into account the tasks that this equipment must decide).

    Secondly (again, taking into account the author's previous articles on armored vehicles), it is quite possible that in some cases it is possible to completely abandon the tank gun! And that means from the tank as such (in the modern sense). And all the tasks that tanks solved, but not related to the gun, should be assigned to other types of equipment (in which the level of protection should also increase significantly) - to engineering vehicles, to armored personnel carriers, to self-propelled guns. The level of protection of which should still be close to the tank one. Perhaps you still need a combat vehicle, protected like a tank, but sharpened for close air defense and fighting enemy infantry. Accordingly, the rejection of the gun can simplify the layout.
    Missiles and anti-aircraft machine guns can be placed on any vehicle, as well as tools for launching and maintaining a drone. So, perhaps, in some cases it is not necessary to release a universal machine on the battlefield, and, perhaps, it will still be possible to apply the division of labor between them.

    This, of course, also does not eliminate the need to have a new type of universal tanks capable of fighting on their own (which is what the article says), but at least it will allow in some cases (when solving secondary tasks) to use old tanks (provided they are modernization, of course), or do without them at all. For example, it is possible that "new good universal" tanks will be used mainly to break through the defense line, and to break into the deep rear, prefabricated formations from simpler specialized vehicles will be used, incl. tanks of the old type.
  27. 0
    1 September 2023 07: 05
    [P.S].

    Since we are talking about the fight against drones, a question to the author. Have you considered the idea of ​​​​fighting enemy drones in the rear (namely, in the rear) with the help of inexpensive aircraft (such as "corn" or even "biplane of the First World War")? It seems to me that there are certain considerations in favor of this option (I can outline if necessary). Do you plan to write articles on this topic?
    1. 0
      1 September 2023 11: 07
      When a comment is longer than some of the articles on this resource.
      All in all, an interesting point of view.
      1. 0
        15 September 2023 09: 10
        Thank you))
        I’ve just been reading Timokhin and other good authors for a long time so that I can draw some conclusions and generalizations on my own)
  28. +1
    1 September 2023 07: 52
    If the air defense had begun and continued as it should - with air strikes on headquarters, concentration areas and air defense systems to the full depth, suppression of enemy electronic warfare communications, actions of sabotage groups in the rear, attacks from the sea and in all directions, then the enemy would not have gotten around to it before the use of drones. All these toys are a consequence of a protracted conflict, “regroupings” and agreements, and the indecision of the Russian government.
  29. +1
    1 September 2023 08: 00
    Isn’t it easier to put an electronic warfare jammer on tanks? And on the Armata with its radars you can also install an automatic anti-drone cannon.
    1. 0
      1 September 2023 08: 35
      No, because then there will be autonomous drones with AI.
  30. -3
    1 September 2023 20: 04
    If we are guided by the principle that the simplest solution is usually the most effective, then each Armata should be equipped with a small electronic warfare system to protect against FPV drones, the prototype has already been shown by the PPSh laboratory. Plus, you can build up the back of the tower with a lightweight structure that protects the MTO compartment. It is also possible to place modified KAZ modules fired upwards.
  31. Owl
    +1
    1 September 2023 20: 11
    "Tank telephone" - it is extremely necessary, three connectors are needed (port, starboard and stern), elongated cables are also needed for this phone, in order to organize interaction in defense. It is better to give the quadrocopter-observer to the tank crew, together with the calculation prepared for its operation, the operator’s communication with the crew via the “tank telephone” and it is necessary to have, next to the phone connectors, connectors for transmitting images to the commander and gunner-operator on simple removable displays.
  32. 0
    2 September 2023 13: 25
    Some ideal shape, which we now need to strive for, is shown in the figure below.

    The author, take a calculator already, and count the simplest things. Make real proportions, six meters long hull, one meter high, the tower is less than a meter, and make sure that in the proportions of a real tank you get a wedge of 18 degrees, where to place the filling of the tank? That's right, nowhere. If you increase the height of the tank, then the proposed "ideal" shape will stupidly sharply make the tank heavier. For the angle of inclination does not significantly affect the equivalent thickness of the armor, the angle of inclination generally does not increase the armor, and to “cut off” unused volumes, reduce the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe roof and sides, due to which the mass is actually saved, it is the transverse area of ​​the frontal projection that is important, it is she who determines weight required for frontal armor resistance.
    Everything that could have been cut off long ago, until there is a sharp decrease in the required volumes, it is geometrically impossible to increase the "wedge shape" without increasing the mass as a whole.
  33. -1
    3 September 2023 13: 17
    Just because in other conditions our tanks may well face massive fire from tank guns
    For example? Well, hypothetically? Herd to herd?
    1. 0
      3 September 2023 17: 30
      For example, ours are breaking through, and the enemy are trying to plug the breakthrough.
  34. 0
    4 September 2023 11: 12
    That's why you need to build uninhabited, easily replaceable modules - aka, a tower. An experienced tanker is more important, the t-14 is an example. Only now for each tank you need a supply of such modules .....
  35. 0
    9 September 2023 12: 21
    Why not use a grenade launcher aimed from a KAZ, placed on a turret with circular rotation, and having large vertical aiming angles? - up to 90 degrees. The grenade launcher can use 2 belts, switched by the fire control system - with high-explosive fragmentation grenades and shrapnel. Shrapnel is used specifically against copters and infantry in the dead zone. A single shrapnel grenade that creates a stream of balls or arrows aimed at the copter can be much more effective than a burst from a machine gun. But the machine gun must also be left for long-distance shooting at infantry and field fortifications
  36. 0
    11 September 2023 11: 55
    The future belongs to ground combat systems - light, medium and heavy. I have been talking about this for the last five years. One base without any design changes. The Chelyabinsk Design Bureau in the USSR developed such an object and even partially tested... A single base would allow it to be combined on one platform and other types of military branches...Armata does not provide such an opportunity. The whole conversation about a single platform is a bluff...well, or a lie..