Military Review

Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit

434
Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit

The 103rd armored plant was instructed to supply the RF Armed Forces with 800 modernized tanks within 3 years. Such rates imply the delivery of about 22 vehicles per month. In this regard, the question arises - what should we expect from these machines? Is such a move rational, or is it an act of desperation? Let's try to understand these and other issues. First, some dry characteristics, and then some analytics.


Design features and booking


One of the main design features of the T-62 tank in comparison with later models is the absence of any automatic loader. This function is performed by a person, which implies the presence of a loader in the crew. In my opinion, this is an absolute plus in terms of a combination of factors, the first of which is an increase in the reliability of vehicles (the exclusion of a breakdown of the automatic loader). As the experience of Syria shows, no matter how inhumane it may sound, it is often easier to replace a retired loader than to repair complex automation.

The booking scheme is shown in the photo below. It is a homogeneous armor (NLD and VLD) with a thickness of about 100 mm, located at the corners, providing 200 mm of reduced armor when fired from the front.


Of course, modernization implies strengthening the reservation by installing:

- additional spaced screens made of modern armored steel with high hardness;

- elements of dynamic protection;

- protective grilles.


One of the possible options for rebooking the T-62

What to compare with?


Most of the materials devoted to the analysis of the potential capabilities of the T-62 in the current conditions consider this vehicle mainly from the position of a tank. A large number of critical conclusions are based on this, they say, the machine is hopelessly outdated, and no modernization is able to change this. In general, the supply of such equipment to the troops borders on shame.

However, I still allow myself a different approach - the technique cannot be considered in isolation from the tactics of its application. And, of course, it is impossible to provide an adequate level of protection for equipment of the 60s against anti-tank weapons of the XNUMXst century with modernization.

But after all, no one says that the tactics of using the T-62 will be identical to the use of modern models.

Yes, of course, at the beginning of the special operation, we made a number of serious mistakes and stupidly lost a large amount of equipment, but you still need to understand that there is still a huge number of more modern tanks, both in service and in reserve.

The production facilities at which the production and modernization of this equipment are set up are fully loaded, so, for example, Uralvagonzavod continues to supply troops with new tanks, including the T-90M "Breakthrough".

Taking into account the above, I think it is quite appropriate to assume that the T-62 will be used in a slightly different way than the main battle tanks, and in this sense it is appropriate to compare them with the most modern version of the BMP, which is in service with the Russian army - the BMP-3. That is, as a fire means of strengthening motorized riflemen.

In this capacity, the machine no longer looks like an obsolete technique, but like a very formidable combat unit.

Armor BMP-3 spaced, and is a combination of 60 mm aluminum and about 20 mm steel. While even in the base armor T-62, as mentioned earlier - 100 mm steel. The ongoing upgrade will increase the level of protection even higher.

The situation is similar with weapons.

BMP-3:
projectile weight - 15 kg,
explosive mass - 1,7 kg,
initial speed - 250 m / s,
ammunition - 34.

T-62:
projectile weight - 18 kg,
explosive mass - 3,1 kg,
initial speed - 800 m / s,
ammunition - 42.

Attention is drawn to the presence of twice the explosive charge inside the projectile, which contributes to both a multiple increase in high-explosive action and fragmentation, by giving these same fragments more kinetic energy.

The initial speed is three times higher, which makes the trajectory more flat, reduces the flight time of the projectile, which means it increases the accuracy of firing. In addition, the ammunition load of the T-62 also, it turns out, is larger.

There is a fundamental difference when shooting at armored targets. The fact is that shots for infantry fighting vehicles are low-pulse, i.e., the “knock-out” powder charge in them is insignificant, which is the reason for the low initial speed. The T-62 has a full charge, which means that, along with high-explosive fragmentation, it becomes possible to use classic sub-caliber "crowbars", which in the case of the T-62 have armor penetration of 300–400 mm. The numbers are more than modest for modern tank guns, but in practice they mean a huge difference between the inability to penetrate a tank in principle (in the case of an infantry fighting vehicle) and the ability to penetrate into vulnerable places, for example, into the side, in the case of the T-62.

Fire support infantry in defense


I propose to carefully look at the distinctive features of the T-62 tank in the above photo. Personally, my attention was attracted by a lifting mast with an observation device.

Equipping a tank with such a tool most likely means working on the defensive from closed positions. In this case, the silhouette of the tank is hidden, but observation is difficult. The presence of a lifting mast solves this problem. The tank hides in the trench, completely, raises the mast and conducts observation. Having found the enemy, he goes to the firing position and fires a shot, and hides again.


The illustration above is nothing new, standard motorized infantry defense tactics. Only in the case of the T-62, the place of the BMP is taken by a significantly protected vehicle with a more powerful gun.

Hitting the T-62 in such a position will be an extremely difficult task. Yes, there are “roof-piercing” ammunition and missiles that have an option to attack a target behind cover, but the firing range of such complexes using the NLAW example is 800 meters. While the range of aimed fire with a high-explosive fragmentation projectile is 6 meters. I note that this is almost 000 times higher than the same indicator for the BMP-3, and since there are many open spaces in Ukraine, this parameter is very important.

In the case of the Javelin, the task is simplified, although the cannon still shoots 2-3 times farther than the Javelin hits. However, in his case, it takes time to capture the target. The tactic in which the tank appears in position, fires 1-2 shots and retreats to cover, excludes its defeat by the Javelin.

Comparison with other infantry fighting vehicles


It is impossible not to mention another very important aspect. Russia has a disproportionate number of tanks against the background of a lack of modern infantry fighting vehicles. To put it simply, there are a lot of tanks with a 125 mm cannon, but there are disproportionately few BMPs with a Bakhcha (this particular combat module is armed with a 100 mm cannon).

This difference will become even more significant in a situation where partial mobilization has been announced in Russia, which means that the number of infantry will increase, which will be in dire need of fire support vehicles. You need to understand that the BMP with the Bakhcha combat module is simply not enough for everyone, and the difference between the BMP / BTR with a 30-mm cannon and the T-62 is simply huge.

Under the circumstances, it seems a much more logical step to transfer these tanks to motorized riflemen as "exotic" BMPs (let's not deceive anyone, in Ukraine both ours and Ukrainians still ride on top of the armor), which enhance the firepower of the unit.

About new ways of warfare


It is quite natural that our "well-wishers" hastened to give out their expert opinion on outdated equipment.

This video is an example.


Indeed, one may get the impression that the arguments in favor of the T-62 are just an attempt to pull an owl on the globe, wishful thinking. However, many military experts and armor enthusiasts in Russia have long proposed using old tanks in one way or another for the so-called mobilization reserve.

As an example, I will quote from my old article “AU-220M "Baikal" (57 mm): prospects for practical use in future wars":

In Russia, in 2016, there were about 2 T-500 tanks armed with a 55-mm cannon (against modern calibers of 100–120 mm) in storage. Serial production of cars ended in 125. It is no longer possible to bring this tank to a level comparable to modern models (in terms of armament and armor) through adequate costs (which, however, does not prevent the Syrians from continuing to fight on them). However, its parameters are excellent for a machine operating from the second line. Replace the cannon with a 1979 mm gun with controlled detonation, hang some remote sensing and screens, put a "birdhouse" with a 57 machine gun on top - and you get an excellent tank support chariot.

Alas, but as a demonstration of what I wrote about, I have to use the video of the APU.


Do Ukrainian experts question the age of the gun in this case? I don't think. Although the S-60 is a development of the 40s, and not the 60s, like the T-62 (this is if you do not take into account that the Ukrainian expert said that the T-62s were produced in the 50s, although they were produced in the 60s -x and 70s). Why? Yes, simply because this direct-fire gun is capable of tearing to shreds any medium-armored vehicles, both Soviet and NATO, including the most modern models. But in addition to this, she is able to work on enemy positions along a hinged trajectory - pay attention to the frames after the 50th second of the video.


Positions on which the S-60 fires direct fire

Thus, given weapons you can well nightmare enemy infantry in shelters.

Therefore, the Ukrainians did everything right, taking these guns from storage. Another question is that in the presented version they have a number of disadvantages:

1) are not self-propelled, which means they are low-mobile. Although it is worth noting that they are brought to the stowed position much faster than the same artillery. This disadvantage is solved by the Ukrainians simply - by installing trucks on the chassis;

2) not armored - very vulnerable to shrapnel. Truck chassis also do not save from fragments;

3) the chassis is still designed to work as an anti-aircraft gun, i.e. the barrel looks steeply upwards, and 70% or more of the recoil momentum goes into the ground. When working at shallow angles when shooting, there is too strong a recoil, which shakes the truck (if the gun is installed on it) and sharply reduces the accuracy of fire.

Thus, the installation of this gun on the chassis of an old, but tank, solves all of the above problems.

We get a vehicle that is better armored than any BMP, which destroys any equipment on the battlefield with direct fire, except for tanks, and can also nightmare infantry positions along a hinged trajectory. At the same time, it has a frantic rate of fire: 120 rounds per minute versus 12 for the Bakhchi.

Moreover, I note that all of the above is true for standard ammunition. If these ammunition were developed (new feathered cores with a large elongation factor, new high-explosive shells for firing like a mortar, with a smaller charge, but with an increased projectile-mine, fuses with controlled detonation over enemy infantry positions when undermining over trenches), the effectiveness of the gun would increase many times over.

But, alas, the concept was not destined to be embodied in metal.

But, speaking of the T-62 with a classic 115-mm gun, you can take a fresh look at the photo below.


It features a new US light tank, with a 105 mm cannon.

That is, having begun to modernize the T-62, our military-industrial complex, apparently without planning it themselves, conceptually took the path of the most advanced militarily country - the United States.

The US military plans to purchase 504 Griffin-2 units by 2035. At the same time, tanks formed into companies will be given to infantry brigades of the US Army and the National Guard.

In other words, the concept is the same - light tanks are transferred to reinforce infantry units.

Conclusions


In short, there would be no happiness, but misfortune helped, and our military-industrial complex finally began to move in the right direction. The only depressing thing is that this was not done a few years earlier in a calm environment.

As for obsolete equipment, what is happening in Ukraine has shown that not very high-tech types of weapons (civilian drones for video filming, Geran-2, S-60 installations, etc.) can also be effective. In view of the foregoing, we can conclude that, with proper use, the T-62 tanks can become not just an ersatz solution, but a truly new combat vehicle in the entire concept of the use of motorized rifles by the Russian army.

It is also necessary to understand that other countries are quite successfully (and correctly) modernizing even older tanks. The photo below shows the modernization of the T-55 (Romanian and Slovenian).


Author:
Photos used:
Wikipedia, RF Ministry of Defense, RIA Novosti, http://ksovd.org, http://www.adsl.kirov.ru/
434 comments
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  1. Silver99
    Silver99 18 October 2022 11: 06
    +40
    No matter how beautifully the author describes the role of the loader, the future belongs to robotic equipment, and if you need to plug the gaps at the front with a number of tanks, then the T-34 will do (((((The question is where is the equipment that goes beautifully in parades?
    1. cold wind
      cold wind 18 October 2022 11: 27
      +52
      The question is between what and what is the choice. If in front of the T-72 Ural / T-72A without modernization or a faulty T-72B / B3 or simply ничем, then the T-62M + clearly wins.
      Here the question is different. Who will be responsible for the "lost" T-72B3/80BVM/90A? Approximately a third of tank losses in Ukraine are broken and abandoned or just abandoned fully serviceable equipment.
      It is not surprising that in 31 years the supply of T-72/80 ended. All these years they fought, sold, transferred, pulled for spare parts, rotted, stole.
      Who is responsible for the simply given away tanks, that the stock of equipment for the war has not been formed, or that there is no modern tank on the conveyor?
      1. MBRSS
        MBRSS 18 October 2022 12: 17
        +28
        All these years they fought, sold, transferred, pulled for spare parts, rotted, stole.

        I remember old pictures from the Internet, where rusting T-72, T-64, BMP-1, MTLB and a bunch of other armored vehicles and vehicles stand in the forests (!), without any protection. It’s interesting, was this good taken out in the end for conservation, or was it left to be torn apart by local scrap metal workers?
        1. vlad106
          vlad106 18 October 2022 23: 16
          +1
          Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit
          Quote: MBRBS
          was this good taken out in the end for conservation, or was it left to be torn apart by local scrap metal workers?


          Scribe! In order not to immediately go to spears, bows and arrows ...
          1. seregatara1969
            seregatara1969 19 October 2022 10: 56
            +5
            You need a lot of weapons and different things! In the conditions of the city, the usual ZU 57-2 would have shown itself well in the fight against machine-gun points on the upper floors. Slightly armored, self-propelled. This is my opinion.
          2. zenion
            zenion 19 October 2022 13: 05
            -7
            vlad106. If you are talking about mines and bows, then only with an optical sight they have no analogues either now or in the distant ages. In addition, you can use axes and clubs with an optical sight, as well as cores, discs and other projectiles with an optical sight and homing. Buy and residents, real, Australia boomerangs. Killed and returned. And if you make a boomerang out of iron or oak, then it will hit all the equipment of its choice. If launched into the sky, so they will be chasing rockets and planes.
          3. Dimcor
            Dimcor 19 October 2022 18: 55
            +5
            Scribe! And Musk uses round wheels in his Tesla cars! Round shape! Estimate? It's like the carts of Ancient Rome straight.
            If we talk about bows and arrows, then weapons have no statute of limitations, there is a concept of effectiveness, in Vietnam, since there are jungles, pits with stakes, they caused more damage than modern F-22s. And if you get hit by an arrow, you won't laugh about what an "outdated" weapon it is, you will either scream in pain or die.
      2. Havoc
        Havoc 18 October 2022 12: 45
        +22
        Quote from cold wind
        The question is between what and what is the choice. If in front of the T-72 Ural / T-72A without modernization or a faulty T-72B / B3 or simply ничем, then the T-62M + clearly wins.
        Here the question is different. Who will be responsible for the "lost" T-72B3/80BVM/90A? Approximately a third of tank losses in Ukraine are broken and abandoned or just abandoned fully serviceable equipment.
        It is not surprising that in 31 years the supply of T-72/80 ended. All these years they fought, sold, transferred, pulled for spare parts, rotted, stole.
        Who is responsible for the simply given away tanks, that the stock of equipment for the war has not been formed, or that there is no modern tank on the conveyor?

        You know the same question. I now understand what feelings people had by the autumn of 1941. They were also told "with little blood and on foreign territory" and that our army was "invincible and legendary", but it became it only after two years of non-human efforts. Again repetition?
        1. Civil
          Civil 18 October 2022 12: 52
          +17
          The 103rd armored plant was instructed to supply the RF Armed Forces with 800 modernized tanks for xnumx years

          I don't understand now. I don’t even touch on the essence of modernizing old Soviet tanks.
          And that SVO has already ended? Can you slowly remove from the reserve and upgrade a teaspoon per hour?
          1. MBRSS
            MBRSS 18 October 2022 14: 59
            +31
            Civil, now it will be necessary "by a teaspoon": part of the capacities, vocational schools, half of the technical schools have been "optimized" in 30 years. am
          2. alexmach
            alexmach 18 October 2022 15: 43
            +20
            800 for 3 years, but in the current conditions, this is by no means "a teaspoon per hour", it can even be called an accelerated pace. And I have a reasonable question, what kind of modernization is this, and will these tanks have the same retractable mast with surveillance equipment described in the article.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 19 October 2022 09: 27
              +5
              In Russia, a large-scale modernization of the T-62M tanks is underway. Andrey Gurulev, deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, who visited the 103rd armored repair plant in the urban-type settlement of Atamanovka (Chitinsky district, Transbaikal Territory), spoke about this in his telegram channel.

              The updated "sixty-second" in most characteristics will correspond to the level of the tanks of the next generations in service.

              You could get acquainted with one of the options at the eighth International Military-Technical Forum "Army-2022" held last summer in the Patriot Park near Moscow.

              The demonstrated sample had modules for additional multi-layer armor of the hull and turret, hinged dynamic protection "Contact", anti-cumulative lattice screens.

              The mounted eight-barreled grenade launcher is designed to create aerosol curtains that hide the tank from high-precision enemy weapons.

              Updated fire control system increases the effectiveness of the 115-mm gun 2A20 (U-5TS) "Hammer", which, in addition to conventional ammunition, can also fire guided long-range missiles.

              The car was equipped with a special electromechanical mast with MGOES (multispectral gyro-stabilized optical-electronic system), thermal imagers, a television camera and a laser rangefinder.

              It was reported about the installation of a diesel engine with a capacity of 780 hp, which affected the speed characteristics - the maximum speed on the highway can now reach 60 km / h. The fuel range is 550 km.

              At the 103rd BTRZ, in addition to the T-62M, they also repair tanks of the T-72 family, armored repair and maintenance vehicles BREM-1.
              A few years ago, the T-90A was updated, the restoration of the T-80BV was mastered.
          3. Rutrick
            Rutrick 18 October 2022 16: 04
            +17
            This is only at one repair plant in the Far East. It is clear that in parallel there is a modernization of the same t 80 in Omsk, in Tagil they are doing t90. Cars continue to be removed from storage. There is no need to take things so simplistic.
            1. MSG363
              MSG363 20 October 2022 03: 09
              +1
              This is not the Far East, this is Transbaikalia. There are at least two more factories in the Far East where you can do all of the above. And yes, all commentators approach the issue in a very simplified way, just like the author. If the equipment has begun to be modernized, then there is already a clear understanding of how and where to use it, and this is not necessarily a CBO. Since we can talk, for example, about the time after SVO
          4. storm
            storm 19 October 2022 10: 47
            +1
            And that SVO has already ended? Can you slowly remove from the reserve and upgrade a teaspoon per hour?


            It was under Stalin that thousands of new tanks were produced per month, and for today's managers from Rostec and 22 modernized Soviet tanks per month is already an achievement ...
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 19 October 2022 18: 49
              +2
              Quote: assault
              It was under Stalin that thousands of new tanks were produced per month, and for today's managers from Rostec and 22 modernized Soviet tanks per month is already an achievement ...

              Firstly, the repair, modernization, and even reactivation of tanks is piecework and mostly manual work, and thirty-fours were riveted on the conveyor.
              Secondly, the T-90 and even the T-62 are a completely different level of technology compared to the T-XNUMX. I won’t say exactly how much to connect and debug electronics in new and even modernized tanks, since I’ve never been a tank specialist, but if I say “fuck it”, I won’t be mistaken. And how many electronics were in the thirty-four? One walkie-talkie, and that is not the ideal of reliability and quality. So a comparison of the then and current tanks in terms of production rates is at least not entirely correct.
              And, by the way, about the quality. Several thirty-fours were specially selected and hand-finished to be sent to the allies for information and comparative tests. The first thing that the Americans noted was the extremely low quality (by their standards). But then it was not up to that, and the tankers fought on what they had. Judging by the end result, they fought well. But, most likely, the quality of the war years today will not fail.
        2. alexey sidykin
          alexey sidykin 18 October 2022 18: 35
          -17
          You understand? I doubt it ... then they didn’t whine, they didn’t whine, but they stood in line at the military registration and enlistment offices ...
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 19 October 2022 15: 47
            -3
            Quote: Alexey Sedykin
            then they didn’t whine, didn’t whine, but stood in line at the military registration and enlistment offices ...

            Then they worked for the benefit of the entire working people, and not in the name of Sechin, Miller and Rotenberg, Aven and Vekselberg, Fridman and Abramovich.
            So there is no need to soil the pure aspirations of people to protect their homeland with such pathos.
            1. alexey sidykin
              alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 16: 50
              +1
              Strange ... it turns out in the "Time of Troubles", in 1812 ... Did they not defend their homeland? You have strange ideas about the Motherland. For me, the Motherland is Russia and not the government and polit.stroy. which has already changed twice in my life. Motherland is the land where I was born... but you don't understand that. Not given.
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 20 October 2022 06: 49
                -1
                Quote: Alexey Sedykin
                For me, the Motherland is Russia and not the government and polit.stroy.

                No, for you, the homeland is the power, not the country. This can be understood by scrolling through your pre-war comments.
                It is your power that has brought the country to the edge when they are forced to patch up old tanks. Yes, today it is a forced step, but who is to blame for this?
                At the cost of one World Cup-18, it was possible to build 1500 Armats along with a technical support park. But show-offs are more expensive, right? wink
                It is precisely such "guardians" like you who are the accomplices of traitors in high offices. So there is no need to crucify high words about the Motherland.
                1. alexey sidykin
                  alexey sidykin 21 October 2022 11: 24
                  -1
                  It's you who are talking about power, not me...I don't care who is in power if it benefits Russia. Give your leader who you can follow and I will follow, but you don’t have him. So all your words are one continuous demogogy. First, find a worthy person in your ranks and then you will offer to choose your side. Just keep in mind, he should be much better than Putin and be able to negotiate with different people ... even unpleasant ones. And personally, you can’t even do without hackneyed stamps ... can you at least say something in your own words? Without fittings for the World Cup of the Olympics and pensioners ...
      3. Sergei Kazarin
        Sergei Kazarin 19 October 2022 02: 03
        -2
        They blew in Syria ...............................
      4. zombirusrev
        zombirusrev 19 October 2022 12: 17
        +2
        Who destroyed the LKZ in Leningrad ... Sobchak is known during the time of measures and the production of tanks and design bureaus ... In general, to the wall of the "Foremen of Perestroika" ...
      5. goose
        goose 19 October 2022 13: 07
        +8
        I am amazed at the level of analytics, almost everyone who talks here. And no one opposes them.
        First, let's start with the author, why does he give such strange data on shots to the 2A70 gun only for the old ZUOF-17 ersatz shells? ZUOF -19x is 350 m / s and twice the radius of destruction, and this projectile is no worse than the OFS for the T-62M.
        Further, the Ukrainian expert and some others are just talking nonsense about the number of remaining tanks, we still have a lot of T-72B, T-72A, and T-64 in storage, there are several hundred T-80s. The need for the T-62M arose, because. you need a company-level operational tool to destroy field fortifications. By the way, Nona would fit. The second factor is the preparation of drugs, and the T-62m is the easiest tank to master in our army.
        Talking about 57-mm high-ballistic artillery systems on a modern battlefield without remote detonation and without new SLA capabilities to combat drones and helicopters is generally verbiage. An 82mm or 120mm mortar on a truck is better.
        The capabilities of 30-mm autocannons have not been canceled, but they are not able to cope quickly and far with field targets, and you have to enter the affected area.
        But the main reason is different - poor communication on the battlefield. After all, it’s very easy to have a VHF station and eyes and a mortar with a modern FCS and topography at the other end in 30 seconds to put a series of mines at the right point.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          20 October 2022 12: 53
          -1
          Quote: goose
          First, let's start with the author, why does he give such strange data on shots to the 2A70 gun only for the old ZUOF-17 ersatz shells? ZUOF -19x is 350 m / s and twice the radius of destruction, and this projectile is no worse than the OFS for the T-62M.

          For a combination of reasons.
          1) Still, it was about the fact that the BMP cannon is not capable of kinetically hitting armored vehicles. A land mine hit can damage a tank or disable less armored vehicles, but for this you need to hit the target. And if the target is moving, and if the enemy is approaching the positions, then he is moving, you need to hit the moving enemy, and not the stationary target. And here the difference is huge, between the BMP cannon and the tank's sub-caliber projectile.

          Subcaliber speed 1700 m/s. Compared with this, that 250, that 350 ... let's say equipment entered the affected area. BMP shoots, how long will the projectile fly? Even if we consider the average as 330 ms for convenience (although in reality it will be less), it will fly 9 seconds. The sub-caliber will fly for 2 seconds with a little. Plus, they can start working not at the turn of 3000 meters, but at the turn of 4 meters.
          Those. by the time the infantry fighting vehicle can start firing at the enemy, the tank will already be able to fire 10 shots.

          2) These shells appeared in the press along with plans for proximity (guided) fuses for them back in 2015. But for the entire period of the special operation, we did not see a single case of the use of controlled detonation over the positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. I also did not find them in the TechMash catalog. There is also the question of the prevalence of ammunition, it is clear that there are much more old ones.

          An 82mm or 120mm mortar on a truck is better.

          Better. But the question of universality - a mortar cannot destroy an infantry fighting vehicle with direct fire. The "mortar" function is just a "bonus" in this case.
        2. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 22 October 2022 19: 30
          0
          "The T-62m is the easiest tank to master in our army" - Not really, they say it is more difficult to manage than the 72nd and beyond.
      6. Dimcor
        Dimcor 19 October 2022 18: 35
        +1
        One tank was abandoned by some bunglers - immediately begins "a third of the losses were left completely serviceable." Again, we read your nonsense about the fact that the Ukrainians have run out of film on their phones and have not removed it.
        The few T-62s that have been are being withdrawn from the Donbass rather than being brought in, and the T-62 has not been used by the Russian army. And look at those, it turns out that the T-72s are over ... Well, yes, they are almost over, a thousand others are left. And there are no new tanks, despite the fact that only recently a batch of new T-90s went to Ukraine. I also highlighted it in black, strange, but why not in caps?
      7. Vlad2012
        Vlad2012 20 October 2022 10: 57
        +1
        And where did you get the idea that the supply of T-72 and T-80 ended? The same Military Balance for 2022 gives a figure of something around 7000 T-72s and 3000 T-80s. Another thing is that it is quite possible that these are tanks of the first series and are not much better than the T-62. The decision to modernize them was probably taken as the simplest in terms of logistics or costs, plant experience or something else. On the other hand, they are really easier to master than the T-72. This was written before the SVO.
      8. nickname7
        nickname7 22 October 2022 13: 26
        0
        The head of the Siberian Crane, who did not start mobilization in March, is to blame for a third of the abandoned equipment. Apparently there is no one to advise, there are no specialists in the immediate environment, and the analytics of the lower ones were thrown into the wastebasket. Meanwhile, the ratio of troops by September reached 1:8 in favor of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they rushed into attacks regardless of losses, respectively, we did not have enough shells and cartridges to repel the attacks, we had to abandon tanks and run. Alas, at the top are indecisive and incompetent who have made many mistakes. Strelkov was right, mobilization should have been carried out in March.
    2. Emergency
      Emergency 18 October 2022 12: 08
      -1
      As where? Brings makeup for new parades.
    3. free
      free 18 October 2022 14: 01
      +32
      Yes, the news, of course, is just like a bucket of the Cold War on the head. There are advantages to both a bow with arrows and a bronze shield. But how is it, where is the money spent on new equipment, where are the guilty? Are the perpetrators sitting in the tank turret as a loader? As for modernization, there are also big doubts regarding active protection. The screen will be welded at best, which is also not a panacea (according to research, in order to avoid burning through the armor with a cumulative jet, the screen must be brought to a distance of half a meter to a meter !!! There was a good article on VO about shielding) The right thought goes in the comments on VO in the last time: "SVO revealed the abscesses of our system." Question: what are we going to do? Should we delete them or leave them as they are?

      P.S. There are no claims to those who made the decision to reopen, a bold decision. T62 is better than sitting with nothing and chewing snot.
      1. odometer
        odometer 18 October 2022 14: 30
        +6
        Execution cannot be pardoned ... I'm sure we'll leave it as it is ... And yes, after at least the victory in Finnish, it was the beginning of 41-42 ...
      2. Azis
        Azis 18 October 2022 20: 26
        +10
        Quote: Free
        "CBO has exposed the abscesses in our system." Question: what are we going to do? Should we delete them or leave them as they are?
        It turns out that we will anoint with iodine or brilliant green (not in the sense, unfortunately). Removal requires surgical methods.
      3. Shark Lover
        Shark Lover 19 October 2022 02: 32
        +22
        T62 is better than sitting with nothing and chewing snot.
        I don't think so. All the same, it is not correct to collect everything from all districts. There is Kazakhstan, there are sprat territories, it is not clear where the second Ukraine will come from, but along the way it will arrive. Therefore, a quick way to replenish troops with tanks, especially since you need to quickly (relatively) form several corps, the method is correct. It will be necessary and ISs will be used))). Here is another question, I went to both the T-62 and the T-72 (I had a tank platoon in my company), first 62s, then changed them to 72s. Reconnaissance in reconnaissance. Here is the work of a driver mechanic on the T 62 is completely different compared to the T-72. At 62 ke everything is muscular strength, including the clutch and brake pedals. Switching speeds there is something with something. In general, the fur needs to be retrained a lot. Yes, and the hatch at 72 ki is not in the center, but on the side, when you drive on the machine, you may not fit in. But everything is simple in repair, I myself repaired it on the march, with a pin)))), with wire.
        In terms of armor, in our brigade in the DRA there were 62ki, so one time she came by herself with 7 RPG 7 hits and nothing. So the tank is quite suitable for such conditions. Of course, for tank biathlon it sucks, it is suitable for combat.
        1. Monster_Fat
          Monster_Fat 19 October 2022 07: 36
          +16
          There is such a site German Oryx. This site displays the losses of various equipment of the warring parties. Moreover, the type, brand and number of the lost car or weapon is given, in addition, they are accompanied by a photograph of at least one, and sometimes several from different angles, confirming the loss - just click on the number. There are some errors, but they are minor and they are quickly corrected. I will not focus on the level of losses, who needs to come in and take a look himself, but I want to focus on the T-62 tank. This tank has been used in a special operation for a long time and the number of these vehicles is not so small. And now, despite this, the number of lost - abandoned these tanks is minimal, compared to all others - literally one. I don’t know how to explain this - use in the second line, higher reliability, fewer or all of these combined, but this is a fact.
          1. User_neydobniu
            User_neydobniu 19 October 2022 11: 07
            -2
            And now, despite this, the number of lost - abandoned these tanks is minimal, compared to all others - literally one. I don’t know how to explain this - use in the second line, higher reliability, fewer or all of these combined, but this is a fact.

            I’m just wondering, in your opinion, the T-72 was designed by idiots and made a tank that is much worse protected than the T-62?
            So it will soon become clear that the t-34 is the most protected tank
          2. Essex62
            Essex62 19 October 2022 13: 54
            +4
            I wonder how the organizers of the site will collect information on the destroyed equipment, up to the serial number and photo, in the conditions of hostilities, for example, in Syria? This is how much dough you need to have in order to interest those who exploit them and lose them in battles, so that they promptly give out information? Or is it only on our GV infa goes? But does it matter that our command of the German tsutsik gives information about the losses? Doubtful something.
            1. alexey sidykin
              alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 15: 44
              0
              And not only the site ... in general, accounting for padded equipment, what we have, what they have, who is in what much. However, it was the same during the Second World War. Although I must say that then we were stricter with this.
      4. Mazunga
        Mazunga 19 October 2022 15: 31
        -1
        you can shoot from tar and even with Maxim’s machine guns, not everything is so simple))) in skillful hands and a vibrator spoon, it’s just where everything goes, it’s interesting, although if you bury 62 in the ear and there’s still good flooring on top, then you can definitely shoot at the Nazis from fluff one thing is interesting that the author of the article himself would like to fight on the t-62?
      5. nickname7
        nickname7 22 October 2022 13: 31
        +1
        abscesses of our system." Question: what shall we do? remove them or leave them as they are?

        Our system is closer to monarchical, without feedback, alas, no one will ask your opinion.
    4. Foundling
      Foundling 18 October 2022 18: 17
      +10
      Why don't they upgrade the t72//80 from storage? Or are they no longer there? Or are the upgraded t-72/80s worse than the upgraded t-62s?
      1. bayard
        bayard 19 October 2022 09: 24
        +8
        Quote: Foundling
        Why don't they upgrade the t72//80 from storage? Or are they no longer there?

        Now all existing types of tanks are being modernized and are returning to service: the T-72A (and M) are returning to service after refurbishment, the T-72B is being upgraded to B3\B3M, the T-80 is the same - some are undergoing deep modernization, others are being put into service after restoration repair. The production of the T-90M and the modernization of the T-90A to M continues.
        And the plant, which had previously specialized in repairs of the T-62 and having a nearby base / storage bases for such tanks, began to modernize the T-62M. New sighting systems, dynamic protection and anti-cumulative gratings will raise the level of its security, situational awareness and fire accuracy. 115 mm. the gun will remain the same, but the absence of an automatic loader (and the presence of a loader) will provide, oddly enough, greater reliability of the gun and the exclusion of the very possibility of an automatic loader failing in battle.
        Tank of the second line, infantry support and for service at checkpoints - cheap, simple, reliable, unpretentious.
        Without an automatic loader there is almost nothing to break.
        And we need a lot of tanks for this (and future) war.
        1. Foundling
          Foundling 19 October 2022 09: 48
          +4
          And why then are there no reports of modernization of 800 t72 / 80?
          1. bayard
            bayard 19 October 2022 11: 35
            +9
            Quote: Foundling
            And why then are there no reports of modernization of 800 t72 / 80?

            These upgrades are going according to previously concluded contracts. Now the pace of this work has increased, work is going on in 2-3 shifts, batches of modernized equipment are sent to the troops ahead of schedule (relative to peacetime plans and schedules).
            Moreover, due to the lack of repair facilities for tanks in the European part of the country, it was decided to urgently build two new tank repair plants in the European part. There are attempts to revive the Rembats to organize the repair of armored vehicles in the near rear.
            Reserve General Gurulev blabbed about the work begun and the order for the modernization of 800 T-62M. That is why this fact and these figures began to caress in mass media. The usual leak of facts and figures gave rise to many articles, broadcasts, interviews ... Now there is an energetic process of returning a large number of various armored vehicles and artillery systems, self-propelled guns, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, vehicles from storage to service. If there is a leak about numbers and graphs, this will give the enemy the whole picture of the combat deployment of the RF Armed Forces.
            And this is unacceptable.
            Therefore, the "fog of war" will envelop all these processes.
            Approximately, with extrapolation to the increased pace of work with the start of the SVO, we can say that the troops will receive at least 72 T-3B3 \ 300M units per year. , T-80BVM - about 150 - 200 pcs. , T-90M (including upgraded T-90A to M) - up to 200 units.
            But you need to remember that some of the tanks go to the troops without modernization, but after undergoing refurbishment after being removed from the DH.
            ... By the way, I would pay attention to about 4000 pieces. T-64 at our storage bases. It is clear that the tanks of the Kharkov plant, but the amount in storage is enviable, and the Donbass corps have been fighting on such tanks for over 8 years. Repairs can be made through "cannibalism", but the sighting system can also be modern. To find a suitable repair plant for this.
    5. Oleg Barchev
      Oleg Barchev 18 October 2022 18: 48
      +17
      Imagine, now people over 30 will come to the troops and they urgently need to be trained to work with the equipment of the T-90M and T-72B3M tanks. In this situation, it will be most effective to restore skills on a simpler vehicle, and the T-62 is very suitable here. The scope of the T-62 is escorting supply columns to protect against DRGs, reinforcing checkpoints on the 2nd and 3rd lines of defense, etc. Those. many places except 1 front line.
      1. Metal bro
        Metal bro 18 October 2022 20: 26
        +7
        What to restore? In modern tanks, God knows what difficult control, on the contrary, everything goes along the way to make it easier for the crew
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          19 October 2022 16: 56
          0
          Quote: MetalBro
          What to restore? In modern tanks, God knows what difficult control, on the contrary, everything goes along the way to make it easier for the crew

          After reading your message, I understood by what logic modern girls pass on the rights)))
          The car drives itself. Before the first problem
          2.3. Guidelines and recommendations on the second educational issue: Possible malfunctions of the automatic loader and ways to eliminate them.

          Nafig need! Everyone has these skills - they are transferred with mother's milk.
          Throw it in the glove compartment, you will have to get it and read it at the traffic light)))
          And do not pay attention to those who will be on the air asking questions "why our tank does not shoot" and say what they want to do with you)))
      2. Foundling
        Foundling 18 October 2022 22: 49
        +3
        Isn't the t-34 easier to train? From drg again. And yes ... better than body armor. Got my point?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 October 2022 11: 09
          +2
          Quote: Foundling
          Isn't the t-34 easier to train?

          Nope. There, one shift of gears will bring modern man into shock and awe.
          I'm not talking about leverage.
          ... to deploy the T-34, it was necessary to pull the steering clutch lever with a force of 35-45 kg. And this, mind you, is already the post-war release of a design licked over six years of production.
      3. Devil13
        Devil13 19 October 2022 02: 36
        +7
        What year is the t-72?
        Who are you going to call on, 80 year olds?
        Nothing, NOTHING fundamentally new, which has not been in the t-30 or t-90b72 for the last 3 years !.
        So please don't be rude.

        Yes, against DRGs on carts it will do.
        But! If hard meth screens are hung on it on the sides, at least contact-5 is everywhere and gratings - then yes. If they grab SIGHTS in the form of a panorama, in the form of a thermal imager.

        And so it would be better if the T-10M was removed from the reserve, if they still exist.
        The gun is incomparable in power, like two 14mm machine guns. Well, DZ would fit more on a pike, like a landing - on such a barge)
    6. Barberry25
      Barberry25 18 October 2022 20: 38
      +8
      again 25 ... in a month we decided to increase the size of the ground army by 2 times .. do you really believe that to ensure them you need to purchase ONLY modern, expensive and piece samples? t-150, and with modernization, this is a normal solution, it would be worse if, on the contrary, they started singing songs about "we will equip them with t-6s"
      1. Foundling
        Foundling 18 October 2022 22: 52
        -3
        Correctly! The T-72/80 does not need to be upgraded. Are these modern and expensive tanks for modernization?
        1. Barberry25
          Barberry25 19 October 2022 10: 50
          +3
          those. turn on your brain and think hard for you? Well, I’ll specifically reveal a terrible secret for you - the modernization of the t-72 and t-80 continues ... now live with it
          1. Foundling
            Foundling 19 October 2022 12: 19
            -4
            You think so? And if, instead of upgrading 800 t-62, upgrade 800 t-80 from storage? OK, did I figure it out? Therefore, you are more careful about the brain. It may very well be that it is not at all "disabled" for me, but for my opponents))))))
            1. Barberry25
              Barberry25 19 October 2022 12: 49
              0
              yes, you can think of anything, even a destroyer of planets from a toilet bowl, the question is in the implementation - tanks are needed and they need a LOT and we have a question - since the BTRZ has logistics and a well-established modernization scheme for the t-62, it has a warehouse next to these tanks and a technological chain that provides supplies with everything you need. A trite engine repair is already a problem if it is a gas turbine engine .. And we have a choice - to ditch the entire chain to stop the modernization of tanks for 2-3 months, in order to theoretically get a return to service, even without modernization of the t-80b, which, within the framework of the SVO, will not provide significant superiority over the t-62M, which will still be modernized at the same time ... so you still turn on your brain.
              1. Foundling
                Foundling 19 October 2022 15: 22
                -3
                You still need to turn on your brain. Spend precious resources on the modernization of the t-62 or the same resources on the modernization of the t-80. A leading question: "Which of the cars will provide the best protection for the crew?" Will you sit in the "modernized" T-62 yourself, or would you prefer someone else to do it?
                1. Barberry25
                  Barberry25 19 October 2022 17: 30
                  +1
                  it’s hard for you to think, I already noticed this .... can you tell me a modernization kit that will allow you to quickly and a lot of tanks for the mobile reserve? Especially, which will allow you to make 3 dozen tanks a month on a single BTRZ ??
                  1. Foundling
                    Foundling 19 October 2022 20: 08
                    -1
                    I understand that thinking is not for you. But an outdated, less protected tank is as much easier to destroy as it is to produce. Crews are not enough.
                    1. Barberry25
                      Barberry25 19 October 2022 23: 15
                      -1
                      as practice has shown, destroying a t-80 in a modernized form is no more difficult than a t-62, so choosing between no tanks and a modernized t-62, the choice was made in favor of the t-62, but of course you can throw in a modernization scheme and contact the Moscow Region with a logistical explanation
                      1. Foundling
                        Foundling 20 October 2022 02: 00
                        0
                        Learn more about practice. Or blah blah. Under what circumstances were both tanks destroyed? But I think you've stooped to obs
                      2. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 20 October 2022 10: 26
                        -1
                        and you don’t follow the losses? that for the t-62m there is a budget upgrade that significantly increases its capabilities, and for the t-72/80 such upgrade starts from 50 million per unit. This is the math of large numbers - for the same amount you can get either 100 tanks or 50 , but just 100 tanks are needed, especially since active oncoming tank battles are not expected now, and the enemy has an increase in the amount of light armor, for which a 115 mm gun is more than enough for the eyes, so I repeat, the better principle applies here a titmouse in the hands than a crane in the sky and a woodpecker in the anus.
                      3. Foundling
                        Foundling 20 October 2022 23: 15
                        +1
                        Yes, be your way. Good news from the front. Lost the desire to argue. Lish would be smaller guys maimed and killed. Glory to the Airborne Forces! Glory to Russia! Beauties today!
                      4. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 20 October 2022 23: 49
                        +1
                        so be it, the main thing is the victory and the saved lives of our boys.
            2. Barberry25
              Barberry25 19 October 2022 13: 03
              +1
              by the way, the t-62m (2021) is very well suited within the framework of the SVO, as it has a mast with an ECO, which allows you to detect enemy equipment at a distance of up to 5 km, which at this stage cannot be done by any tank, except for the Turkish modernization of the M-60, and then there is an idea to look behind the wall
              1. Foundling
                Foundling 19 October 2022 15: 24
                -3
                "Suitable" of course. Don't you sit in it
    7. Piligrim
      Piligrim 18 October 2022 22: 41
      0
      Quote from Silver99
      The question is where is the technique that goes beautifully in parades?

      You know the answer.
      You also say that the Kremlin Regiment should be sent to the Northern Military District in order to fire at the officers and instill in them the skills of practical combat work.
      Everyone understands that liberalism has not brought the army to good anywhere in the world. I am glad that in this case the pace of our gouging (wrecking) turned out to be less than that of our "partners". I would only like organizational conclusions to be made faster and decisions to create new personnel, primarily for the rear, made more quickly and brought to life immediately.
      1. Sergei Kazarin
        Sergei Kazarin 19 October 2022 02: 05
        +6
        And here is liberalism, when total nepotism is to blame, when they put their own people everywhere, and not competent ones
        1. Piligrim
          Piligrim 25 November 2022 21: 35
          0
          Quote: Sergey Kazarin
          And here is liberalism, when total nepotism is to blame, ...

          Isn't that cause and effect? Not?
    8. Bulgarian_5
      Bulgarian_5 19 October 2022 01: 10
      -3
      FULL protection in the frontal, side projection, and the upper hemisphere of the tank.
      AZ complex against ATGMs
      multispectral panoramic gyro-stabilized observation device for the commander with the ability to work as a replacement for the aiming sight.

      Auth. multi-speed transmission (and in reverse) to ensure fast speed in reverse.

      network-centric system for data exchange between combat vehicles.

      Only when all these conditions are fulfilled, then you can safely ride on such tanks. Otherwise, it turns out a 'modernization' of the T72 B3 type, and hundreds of crews burned alive.

      1 high-quality and well-made tank is better than 100 handicraft ones that do not meet modern requirements.
      It was also visible during the Second World War / WWII, when for 1 German tank the Allies lost dozens of their own.
      1. zombirusrev
        zombirusrev 19 October 2022 12: 24
        +2
        Two panthers minus the T-70 in an ambush ... it all depended on the situation .. Everything was very different ..
      2. Barberry25
        Barberry25 19 October 2022 12: 52
        +2
        and be sure to include a valet and a prostitute in the tank kit for greater comfort
    9. The comment was deleted.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 19 October 2022 13: 06
        +4
        Do you know such a term as a reserve mobilization tank? This is just in case what is happening with us now when you need a LOT of equipment, not even the best, because average quality + a huge amount will kill any quality with zero quantity
      2. alexey sidykin
        alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 15: 52
        -2
        At all times there was a technique that did not become mass-produced, but the production of which made it possible to test many developments ...
    10. Bayun
      Bayun 19 October 2022 17: 08
      -1
      And, here’s a radio-controlled T34 with an automatic loader - it wouldn’t be “ridiculous” ... When, for example, 100 pieces of such “robots” with machine-gun and cannon fire are rushing, the defense is not funny.

      And behind comes 10 new T90s and shoots open firing positions with high precision. Quite to itself - the tactics of modern tank combat.

      It's strange somehow, "Buran" from space was landed on the machine, "Lunokhods" were driven on the Moon, but "Robot-Tank" for a breakthrough and detection of anti-tank weapons - they did not.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 19 October 2022 17: 32
        +1
        so maybe the fact is that we DO NOT NEED tank robots now? We now need armored vehicles with FCS, optics and a powerful weapon that can be used to defeat enemy troops.
        1. Bayun
          Bayun 20 October 2022 02: 21
          0
          can not. LOGIC OF WAR = CONST. If somewhere it can be reduced to "toys" - it must be reduced.
          1. Barberry25
            Barberry25 20 October 2022 10: 29
            0
            1) This model is not in production.
            2) no tactics
            3) what's the difference where the crew will sit in a tank in a trench for destruction, or in a separate armored personnel carrier 5 km behind it? We now have such a situation that we don’t need to play spillikins. But to provide the front with a large amount of equipment, otherwise it turns out that for now you will provide one company with such robots, you will have a whole battalion without equipment and shoot at the enemy with machine guns .. Any decision has its bad sides, remember this when you offer something
            1. Bayun
              Bayun 21 October 2022 15: 37
              0
              one is not a hindrance to the other. And by the way, "the game of spillikins" is a very difficult thing.
              1. Barberry25
                Barberry25 21 October 2022 15: 43
                0
                you understand what, but in general, the problem is that now everyone is offering a bunch of options, without even thinking about why they suddenly decided to supply t-62m, and not armats or mobilized t-90m.
                1. Bayun
                  Bayun 23 October 2022 15: 47
                  0
                  With all due respect to the “whatever happens” approach, I prefer: “Forward while we are alive.”

                  PS: "at least I tried" (C) ... "offer".
                  1. Barberry25
                    Barberry25 23 October 2022 16: 57
                    0
                    and we wouldn’t have 3 lost t-90m, but 230 ... what would that change?
                    1. Bayun
                      Bayun 23 October 2022 17: 06
                      0
                      site today read? this is not true - with which I congratulate us.
                      1. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 23 October 2022 17: 17
                        0
                        I didn't read it, so tell me what's there?
                      2. Bayun
                        Bayun 26 October 2022 22: 21
                        0
                        we are discussing what is not, in short;)
  2. Foul skeptic
    Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 11: 09
    +28
    Indeed, one may get the impression that the arguments in favor of the T-62 are just an attempt to pull an owl on the globe, wishful thinking.

    The only adequate proposal for the entire article.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 18 October 2022 11: 12
      +25
      Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit
      right ... you need to take care of the equipment ... "armata"
      and "su 57" will come in handy in the war of 2080 ...
      1. Havoc
        Havoc 18 October 2022 11: 33
        +32
        Quote: Dead Day
        Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit
        right ... you need to take care of the equipment ... "armata"
        and "su 57" will come in handy in the war of 2080 ...

        You are an optimist, it seems to me much earlier. The main resource is people, and if we thoughtlessly lose men in childbearing age, then we will never get out of the demographic hole. And by 2080 there will be no one to fight.
        1. aars
          aars 18 October 2022 12: 29
          -13
          There will be no pit, that is, there will be no pit at all, as such
          Find someone to replace, easy and simple
          I work in the field - our company accepted the first Tajik
          Once there were almost only Tatars and Bashkirs
          Then the Kazakhs appeared ...

          We really need to look at things, there’s something, but we don’t have a population deficit and are not expected to
          1. Havoc
            Havoc 18 October 2022 13: 13
            +14
            Quote: aars
            There will be no pit, that is, there will be no pit at all, as such
            Find someone to replace, easy and simple
            I work in the field - our company accepted the first Tajik
            Once there were almost only Tatars and Bashkirs
            Then the Kazakhs appeared ...

            We really need to look at things, there’s something, but we don’t have a population deficit and are not expected to

            What country do you live in, in the Russian Federation, in general, the titular nation is Russian, and what does it have to do with Tajiks and Kazakhs?
            1. aars
              aars 18 October 2022 13: 23
              +3
              Belonging to the titular nation does not give any advantages, as well as defeats in rights
              Doesn't really matter, off topic.
              People from the former USSR come and will come to us, whether they accept citizenship or not, but there is no shortage of labor, population, and is not expected
              It's just a bare fact, an objective reality
              It is from these considerations that the government and the ruling class in general act.
              It doesn't matter if you like it or not
              It just was, is and will be
              1. Havoc
                Havoc 18 October 2022 14: 16
                +13
                Quote: aars
                Belonging to the titular nation does not give any advantages, as well as defeats in rights
                Doesn't really matter, off topic.
                People from the former USSR come and will come to us, whether they accept citizenship or not, but there is no shortage of labor, population, and is not expected
                It's just a bare fact, an objective reality
                It is from these considerations that the government and the ruling class in general act.
                It doesn't matter if you like it or not
                It just was, is and will be

                But did I write about the benefits, I just wrote that not one Tajik, Uzbek or Kazakh will protect if the Russian Federation needs it, this is not their country.
                1. Lepsik
                  Lepsik 18 October 2022 18: 11
                  +2
                  In the United States, it has long been not titular Americans in the main - but those wishing to obtain citizenship
              2. Bayun
                Bayun 19 October 2022 17: 14
                0
                no matter how sad it is for the "Russian-Russians" - but this is a FACT. Almost 2 billion "neighbors" will not let the "holy place be empty." Before the Russians, they say, the Hyperboreans lived here, then the Tartars ... And where are they now? It is clear that AMONG US, but are called by someone else.
          2. MBRSS
            MBRSS 18 October 2022 15: 08
            +13
            aars the problem is not the shortage of the population in general, but the shortage of personnel with the appropriate education, skills and motivation. We need professional patriots, not just anyone. (Patriots, of course, are not the "patriots" that Solovyov and Skabeeva open their mittens, but work on the production.)
            1. aars
              aars 18 October 2022 22: 34
              -1
              I completely agree that personnel are needed to overcome technological backwardness
              To overcome with a leap, quickly - frames are foreign
              This is what Japan did after WW2.
              Ours are doing the same now - https://www.cnews.ru/news/top/2021-09-20_nmteh_perevezet_v_rossiyu
              Demography, the titular nation is generally aside here, they are not important, they do not matter
              By the way, and with patriotism, the titular nation is by no means better than the non-titular ones - the multi-kilometer queues at all borders did not consist mainly of Buryats, Tatars, etc. at all.
              1. Devil13
                Devil13 19 October 2022 02: 44
                +4
                1. The replacement of the working-age population by migrants has never led to anything good.
                2. In Japan, a migrant receives 25-40% higher salary than his own, according to the law. And he comes by invitation, so they have migrants - highly qualified specialists.
                3. At the border, of course, not the best representatives of society.
                But I wonder, why should they fight?
                For thanks? For the memory of the Motherland?
                These people have been told for 30 years that no one (and the state in the first place) owes them anything. They were abandoned by the state.
                Why are they suddenly, drlzhny state? Yes, and not within the framework of the law (where martial law, war and martial law (force majeure, all obligations are assumed by the state)
                We even have holidays on loans, yeah.
                That is, you are flesh nologs with a beggarly salary (in Moscow time with Sobyanin's 50 = salary 90 for mobiks not in the database zone), flesh loans, fight so that after 4 years you will be handed over to collectors and sue the last house.

                Perspective norm?

                And yes, this is not my personal opinion, but I can understand these people.
        2. Reindeer
          Reindeer 18 October 2022 13: 45
          -9
          Well, I agree, but with the terminology there is a clear failure ... for a long time, our men began to give birth, I'm embarrassed to ask?
          1. Havoc
            Havoc 18 October 2022 14: 03
            +8
            Quote from Reindeer
            Well, I agree, but with the terminology there is a clear failure ... for a long time, our men began to give birth, I'm embarrassed to ask?

            Respected childbearing age is the age at which you can conceive a child, as you understand, two must be present at conception, and not one who can give birth. Something like this.
            1. Arriva
              Arriva 18 October 2022 15: 42
              -6
              Wow. It was like no one knew this. Once again - have you already been awarded the Nobel Prize for giving birth to a man?
              Do you even know that one man can fertilize at a time, with the availability of technology, all at once the country's women of childbearing age?
              1. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 19 October 2022 10: 25
                -1
                Quote: Arriva
                Wow. It was like no one knew this. Once again - have you already been awarded the Nobel Prize for giving birth to a man?
                Do you even know that one man can fertilize at a time, with the availability of technology, all at once the country's women of childbearing age?

                This is true. One Tajik will fertilize all.
              2. Havoc
                Havoc 19 October 2022 13: 58
                +3
                Quote: Arriva
                Wow. It was like no one knew this. Once again - have you already been awarded the Nobel Prize for giving birth to a man?
                Do you even know that one man can fertilize at a time, with the availability of technology, all at once the country's women of childbearing age?

                He can fertilize, but who will educate them, the problem is not complete families, we heard about it. And who will work Gaster.
            2. Reindeer
              Reindeer 18 October 2022 16: 35
              +11
              Childbearing age, as follows from the definition - the age at which an individual can give birth; not to be confused with reproduction. In terms of education in the country, of course, it is very neglected ...
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 17: 16
                -3
                Childbearing age, as follows from the definition - the age at which an individual can give birth; not to be confused with reproduction. In terms of education in the country, of course, it is very neglected....

                Especially when you consider that childbearing and reproductive are synonymous concepts. winked
                1. Reindeer
                  Reindeer 18 October 2022 17: 43
                  +2
                  By the way, just checked - and did not find a canonical definition -_- There are some definitions / boundaries for women (well, that is, reproductive age for women is understood ...); but they don’t write about men :( So it’s quite possible that you are right, and I’m not, and in some cases the concepts of “childbearing” and “reproductive” coincide. Nevertheless, I remain of my opinion that the term “childbearing age "doesn't apply to men :)
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 17: 53
                    +1
                    The term "childbearing age" categorically does not apply to men :)

                    Are reproductive organs related to men or not? ))
                    1. Reindeer
                      Reindeer 18 October 2022 18: 01
                      +1
                      If you follow the same logic - no, they do not apply 8)
        3. Morris812
          Morris812 19 October 2022 12: 11
          +1
          I'll tell you a cynical thing - one "childbearing" man is enough for 100 women so that the birth rate does not fall. But not vice versa...
          And the demographic pit is about something completely different
    2. alexey sidykin
      alexey sidykin 18 October 2022 18: 39
      -4
      About how ... Ukraine is supplied with all kinds of equipment of the 50-60s from conservation, this is a serious weapon ... but how do we immediately guard the trash ...
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 09: 22
        +1
        About how ... Ukraine is supplied with all kinds of equipment of the 50-60s from conservation, this is a serious weapon ... but how do we immediately guard the trash ...

        Show me where I call the 50-60s equipment supplied from conservation a serious weapon? Well, you didn't think of that, did you? Or invented?
        1. zombirusrev
          zombirusrev 19 October 2022 12: 26
          0
          You need to blurt out something .. so this is it ...
        2. alexey sidykin
          alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 16: 34
          -1
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          About how ... Ukraine is supplied with all kinds of equipment of the 50-60s from conservation, this is a serious weapon ... but how do we immediately guard the trash ...

          Show me where I call the 50-60s equipment supplied from conservation a serious weapon? Well, you didn't think of that, did you? Or invented?

          I admit I'm wrong about this.
      2. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 19 October 2022 10: 29
        0
        Quote: Alexey Sedykin
        About how ... Ukraine is supplied with all kinds of equipment of the 50-60s from conservation, this is a serious weapon ... but how do we immediately guard the trash ...

        Give an example of what kind of equipment of the 60-70s? Yes, there may be some ancient guns, but basically everything is quite new. Pysy. Polish T-72 tanks are much newer than the bearded T-62
  3. credo
    credo 18 October 2022 11: 11
    +3
    I think that the author is right and the "old men" should still show themselves very well at the forefront, after modernization.
    By the way, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were also happy with the T-55s transferred to them from the stocks of the former Warsaw Pact countries, although they should already have been called mammoths.
    1. Nikolay310
      Nikolay310 18 October 2022 11: 18
      +8
      By the way, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have not allocated so much money from the budget in the last 20 years, as it were ...
      1. Genry
        Genry 18 October 2022 12: 08
        +5
        Quote: Nikolay310
        The Armed Forces of Ukraine have not allocated so much money from the budget in the last 20 years, as it were ...

        In 2015, the entire social program was cut by 2 times, + taxes on the army + "help" for the transition to NATO.
      2. Emergency
        Emergency 18 October 2022 12: 10
        +2
        Yes-ah-ah-ah? what What were they doing with their suitcases?
    2. filibuster
      filibuster 18 October 2022 12: 17
      +7
      I think that the author is right and the "old men" should still show themselves very well at the forefront, after modernization.


      Much will depend on what the opposite side will have, plus the question of what is there with the engine life of the T-62 and what we have in terms of shells for 115-mm.
  4. AvesevA
    AvesevA 18 October 2022 11: 12
    0
    The article is wrong. The very statement that there will be 800 names of 62 is erroneous. T-62 was given as an example, at the factory you can also see T-80 tanks
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 18 October 2022 20: 40
      +1
      people are lazy creatures, they are too lazy to look for information. so no one will check, especially since the information is "tasty" about 800 t-62
  5. stels_07
    stels_07 18 October 2022 11: 12
    +3
    Why didn’t the army team immediately think of it and implement it? Or is it all a belief in air mobility ..
  6. rocket757
    rocket757 18 October 2022 11: 16
    +12
    Is such a move rational, or is it an act of desperation?
    . Many times and many have said / repeated that bad weapons do not happen so often, but the ability to use them correctly / effectively, what they have ... is a rarity in general.
    It’s simpler ... a fool will be able to break a house, and another can stop a tank with a shovel.
    1. Quote Lavrov
      Quote Lavrov 18 October 2022 11: 21
      +18
      It might stop. One in a hundred. And before that, thousands of those with a shovel will die.
      Of course, no one canceled the mind and ingenuity, but the very level of technology development on the battlefield every year leaves less and less chance for that hero with a shovel against a tank.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 October 2022 11: 45
        +1
        So no one offers to distribute shovels to soldiers, instead of ATGMs and other modern machinery.
        I am not at all happy with the current situation, but I will not argue that correctly modernized equipment, the previous generation cannot be effectively used, where it is POSSIBLE.
        All the same, a specialist in the profile, or even the results of combat use, can give a more or less objective assessment ... but for us, expeots from the sofa, it remains either ... and here are the options, everyone chooses to the extent ... better in moderation, than just spouting nonsense.
        1. Barberry25
          Barberry25 18 October 2022 20: 52
          +4
          in fact, hitting the nabbat would make sense if the Armed Forces of Ukraine would consist entirely of brand new Leo 2a6 at least or Abramsov with a 120 mm cannon, and there it is already seriously discussed that the M60 will be normal, especially since our certain number of T-62s are the same they will put in the troops .. except for the t-90m, t-90, t-82bvm, t-80bv, t-72b3m and t-72b
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 18 October 2022 12: 15
      +8
      Quote: rocket757
      Many times and many have said / repeated that bad weapons do not happen so often, but the ability to use them correctly / effectively, what they have ... is a rarity in general.

      I would say this: "It's not tanks, rockets, anti-aircraft guns, machine guns, etc. that are fighting - the army is fighting." An army is a system in which different types of weapons interact with each other, covering each other's weaknesses. And this is the correct use of weapons and equipment.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 October 2022 12: 35
        +2
        Those. largely depends on the training of personnel, commanders, at all levels of decision-making.
        So this is not news ... it has always been, is and will be.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 18 October 2022 13: 07
          0
          Quote: rocket757
          Those. largely depends on the training of personnel, commanders, at all levels of decision-making.

          I mean the command that determines the overall strategy. What you write about begins to affect later, when orders from above begin to be carried out on the ground.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 18 October 2022 14: 25
            +4
            competent specialists, commanders, are needed at all levels ... but alas, this, probably, only happens in fairy tales.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 19 October 2022 11: 17
        0
        Weed out Durikov on the way ... to teach and equip normal people as they should. A simple method, and the result is quite good, optimal.
  7. Quote Lavrov
    Quote Lavrov 18 October 2022 11: 17
    +11
    Yes, the main problem is not in the tanks themselves, but the fact that the crews that could and should have been used in modern vehicles will die (the question of why we ended up in this situation at all is a separate topic for discussion). This is where the greatest danger lies. And not that, as in an article, situations in a spherical vacuum should be discussed, how 62 can hit more modern tanks on board. After all, everyone knows that the enemy is so stupid that he only moves sideways.
    1. Genry
      Genry 18 October 2022 11: 43
      +10
      Quote: Quote Lavrov
      Yes, the main problem is not in the tanks themselves, but the fact that the crews that could and should have been used in modern vehicles will die

      Do you want more use of lighter under-tanks on IFV chassis?
      The T-62 is an excellent SAO for escorting offensive units and as a replacement for lighter armored vehicles.
      1. alexey sidykin
        alexey sidykin 18 October 2022 18: 46
        -2
        This Ts. L. wants nothing but one thing... to say once again how bad things are with us.
    2. rocket757
      rocket757 18 October 2022 11: 49
      -4
      Quote: Quote Lavrov
      After all, everyone knows that the enemy is so stupid that he only moves sideways.

      There are options ... everything depends on the commanders.
      Moreover, the enemy does not have a lot of highly modern equipment, and so far, it is not expected.
      Those. What will happen and how is not clear.
    3. Barberry25
      Barberry25 18 October 2022 20: 53
      0
      i.e. do I understand correctly that it is necessary to put 10 tank crews from the battalion into the t-72b3m, and put the remaining 30 crews on foot into the bayonet?
    4. Bayun
      Bayun 19 October 2022 17: 23
      0
      Goblin with them with enemy tanks. They have ATGMs. And, here, against infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, jihad mobiles and infantry, the T62 is an EXCELLENT and very powerful weapon. I completely agree with the author.

      If you do not arrange the "Kursk Bulge" of a meeting battle against modern tanks, but competently reinforce defense - a buried tank and better than a single gun and better than an infantry fighting vehicle.
  8. Nikolay310
    Nikolay310 18 October 2022 11: 17
    +22
    but isn't 800 T-90s better ??? they write correctly, so it’s possible to set up the T-34 ... what’s the point of this ...

    we allocated a lot of money for the army ... and instead of asking where everything is, we rejoice at 800 obsolete Soviet tanks ... I wonder if one historian is ready to take back his words about galoshes? what would he fight now if not for Soviet galoshes and Iranian geraniums ??? probably so beloved sweet mosquitoes?
    1. mag nit
      mag nit 18 October 2022 11: 28
      +10
      Let this "historian" eat galoshes.
    2. aars
      aars 18 October 2022 11: 32
      -7
      Quote from another article:
      You can object, they say, on the old T-34-85, KV-85, T-54, T-55, IS-3 and T-10 tanks, the ammunition was located in much the same way.
      In this case, the comparison is inappropriate.
      The ammunition of these tanks consisted of unitary shots.
      The charge of gunpowder was placed in a metal sleeve and the fire hazard of these old machines was incomparably lower.
      And the charges in the partially burning T-72 sleeve are ready to blaze from any touch of the cumulative jet.
      The same applies to the T-80
      And the ammunition load of the T-62 also consists of unitary shots, that is, the probability of the turret being torn off due to the detonation of the ammunition load is much lower than that of the "more modern" T-72, T-80 ...
      The T-62 is more suitable for the needs of a special operation, by the way, there was an article about this recently.
      1. UA3QHP
        UA3QHP 18 October 2022 21: 59
        0
        IS-3 and T-10 ammunition was located in much the same way.
        In this case, the comparison is inappropriate.
        The ammunition of these tanks consisted of unitary shots.

        The IS-3 and T-10 have separate loading, the caliber of the gun is 122 mm.
        1. aars
          aars 18 October 2022 22: 39
          -2
          Mistake yes...
          But the sleeve was still metal.
          1. UA3QHP
            UA3QHP 19 October 2022 07: 33
            -1
            Naturally, it was metal, there were no others in those days.
    3. Grandfather
      Grandfather 18 October 2022 12: 04
      +2
      Quote: Nikolay310
      ..interesting, but is one historian ready to take back his words about galoshes?

      good
    4. Dart2027
      Dart2027 18 October 2022 12: 17
      -11
      Quote: Nikolay310
      interesting, but one historian is ready to take back his words about galoshes

      About the crisis. Yes, the crisis was deep, and we "fell" more than many countries, absolutely sure. What is it because of? Due to the fact that we have a one-sided economy. And what did she do yesterday? Yes, it has developed like this for 70 years. Because everything we made ...
      Yes, my dears, yes. No need to debate. The fact is that what we produced, and no need to wave your hands, was not needed by anyone, because no one bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That's the whole point.
      We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense industry after the Great Patriotic War.
      Voice from the audience:
      - And the first satellite.
      V. V. Putin:
      - Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet regime, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
      But consumer goods... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.

      Can you take back your words?
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 12: 58
        +14
        Can you take back your words?

        And why? The passage you cited is a shameful and pathetic excuse from the mouth of the President.
        The United States, France and others bought "unnecessary" Soviet watch movements in hundreds of thousands (and sometimes millions) of pieces a year. Great Britain and France bought tens of thousands of "unnecessary" Soviet radios and cameras. Switzerland imported our carpets and musical instruments. Medicines, toys, light bulbs, sports equipment and other consumer goods were supplied to Western Europe.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 18 October 2022 13: 04
          -9
          Quote: Nefarious skeptic
          "No one needs" Soviet watch movements

          That's just what went somewhere and what went to mere mortals was very different, not to mention the quantity. There really was a problem with consumer goods in the USSR, and this is not to mention the fact that with your lies about "galoshes and tanks" you attribute to Putin something that he never said. So will you take or will you compose another shameful and pathetic excuse?
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 13: 09
            +7
            That's just what went somewhere and what went to mere mortals was very different, not to mention the quantity

            AND? Does it somehow change that not only Africans, and not only galoshes? And, especially, in incandescent lamps (for example) significant differences wassat
            not to mention that with your lies about "galoshes and tanks" you attribute to Putin something that he never said. So will you take or will you compose another shameful and pathetic excuse?

            It doesn't matter to you who to write to, as I understand it.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 18 October 2022 13: 18
              -3
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Does it somehow change that not only Africans, and not only galoshes?
              It somehow changes what
              Quote: Dart2027
              There really was a problem with consumer goods in the USSR
              not to mention the fact that the same watches were created on the basis of technologies received from the Swiss, and the radio engineering of the USSR was in the category "for the poor."
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              It doesn't matter to you who to write to, as I understand it.
              That is, there is nothing to argue.
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 13: 35
                +7
                It somehow changes what

                Are you not absorbing information? This changes the fact that "not only Africans, and not only galoshes."
                not to mention the fact that the same watches were created on the basis of technologies obtained from the Swiss

                First, it is a very strong distortion of reality.
                Second... so what?
                and the radio engineering of the USSR was in the category "for the poor"

                First, how convenient it is to come up with arguments on the go.
                Second... so what? Show me Russian radio equipment for the poor of Western Europe.
                That is, there is nothing to argue.

                Reply to what? What didn't I say?
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 18 October 2022 14: 56
                  -3
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  This changes the fact that "not only Africans, and not only galoshes."
                  It's just that some Africans lived in American ghettos.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Show me Russian radio equipment for the poor of Western Europe.
                  What they did in the USSR. Soviet citizens were ready to crawl out of their skin to acquire what was being done in other countries.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Reply to what? What didn't I say?

                  Quote: Nikolay310
                  what would he fight now, if not for Soviet galoshes
                  Do you remember what you wrote yourself?
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 15: 07
                    +4
                    It's just that some Africans lived in American ghettos.

                    Brilliant! They walked along the "hot sand" in the same place, in the ghetto. And the decision to import from the USSR was also made at the ghetto level. I wonder how far you are willing to go.
                    What they did in the USSR.

                    You confirm my hunch about the inability to assimilate information. You were asked to show not Soviet radio equipment, but Russian, exported to Western Europe.
                    Do you remember what you wrote yourself?

                    The catch is that I did not write what you quoted in the quote from the forum member "Nikolay310".
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 18 October 2022 15: 20
                      -3
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Russian, exported to Western Europe.

                      http://irdclub.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Export-Club.pdf
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      The catch is that I did not write what you quoted in the quote from the forum member "Nikolay310".

                      Quote: Dart2027
                      what would he fight now, if not for Soviet galoshes
                      So not your words?
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 15: 46
                        +3
                        http://irdclub.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Export-Club.pdf

                        Who is it intended for? Firstly, zero information on household radio engineering, which was discussed.
                        Secondly, a complete "fake" in relation to companies - for a long time non-Russian companies (like Transas) that have switched to production in China under their own brand (like Telesystem), which are simply resellers (like the liquidated Solnechnyveter) are given out as Russian. Didn't the fact that Sukhoi "sell" a hundred SuperJets to Asia in any way embarrass you in this cidulka by 2018? And it turns out that 20 SuperJets are flying in Mexico. The Mexicans don't know. And the mention of Angstrem, originally from the 60s, which is the same Soviet galosh of the 60s, is also amusing..
                        So not your words?

                        Obviously not mine.
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 18 October 2022 16: 35
                        -4
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Obviously not mine.

                        Then why are you protecting them?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And it turns out that 20 SuperJets are flying in Mexico. The Mexicans don't know.

                        https://aviation21.ru/centr-toir-v-toluke-i-22-meksikanskix-superdzheta-chto-v-perspektive/
                        Well, the fact that the company is not the most successful, so it's not about the planes.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Angstrom, originally from the 60s
                        Almost nothing of what was produced then is now produced, because the process of development of production is underway.
                        .
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        non-Russian companies are issued for Russian companies for a long time (like Transas)

                        USC owned a shipyard in Helsinki - was it Russian or Finnish? Have you seen the rest?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        zero information on household radio equipment, which was discussed
                        In the age of smartphones, no one needs household radio equipment for nothing. Progress.
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 18 October 2022 17: 07
                        +4
                        Then why are you protecting them?

                        I? Protecting? I just asked you, after you inserted a quote from Putin, why a person should apologize for his words.
                        https://aviation21.ru/centr-toir-v-toluke-i-22-meksikanskix-superdzheta-chto-v-perspektive/
                        Well, the fact that the company is not the most successful, so it's not about the planes.

                        Yes, bankruptcy is not a success. The point is in their service, or rather in its absence. In 2021, before the final, 4 SuperJets remained in the fleet.
                        Almost nothing of what was produced then is now produced, because the process of development of production is underway.

                        1) Does the time of origin change from this? I repeat, Angstrem is just the same "galoshes" from the USSR.
                        2) Yes, the gap has widened in terms of lagging behind foreign products.
                        3) I had civilian electronics from Angstrem in the 80s and 90s. This is the question of domestic consumer goods then and now.
                        USC owned a shipyard in Helsinki - was it Russian or Finnish? Have you seen the rest?

                        1) Was the owner of USC also in Helsinki?
                        2) What else?
                        In the age of smartphones, no one needs household radio equipment for nothing. Progress.

                        What, they stopped producing and selling? What are we talking about then? Or were Russian smartphones replaced Soviet radio equipment in exports?
                      4. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 18 October 2022 18: 05
                        -4
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        why should a man apologize for his words
                        For a lie.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Does this change the time of origin?
                        Have they been kept since then, or is everything being done now?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I had civilian electronics in the 80s and 90s
                        Well, I had Soviet electronics. Like many others. But I remember how people wanted to get equipment made abroad.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What else?
                        How do they resell something and everything else.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What are we talking about?
                        About what is being produced and sold now.
                      5. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 10: 38
                        0
                        Here is a quote you copied that you thought was a lie
                        interesting, but one historian is ready to take back his words about galoshes

                        Putin did not talk about "galoshes"? You yourself cite an excerpt from his speech, in which, among other things, there is
                        The fact is that what we produced, and you don’t have to wave your hands, was not needed by anyone, because no one bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on hot sand.

                        Where is the lie then? And there is no need to translate the conversation into the fact that this is not about the defense industry, but about consumer goods. First, because what was said about consumer goods (even if we consider that only about consumer goods, and not a set of export positions) is a lie. Secondly, because the productive forces are not rubber, and if you have to use the tanks created under the USSR now, then these tanks appeared partly because a comparable number of consumer goods did not appear then.
                        Have they been kept since then, or is everything being done now?

                        Who is being kept - the year the scientific and production association appeared? I didn’t write clearly enough that Angstrem appeared not in Russia, but in the USSR? And, if we focus on the words of the president, he produced galoshes for Africans, instead of electronics
                        Well, I had Soviet electronics. Like many others. But I remember how people wanted to get equipment made abroad.

                        You could not have Soviet electronics. Only galoshes. Do not mislead people. And the "aspirations" of people are well shown in the old "Wick" in the scene "Dachurka". For me, such an example (not the only one, but the most memorable due to the visibility of human stupidity) from life was the hype with colorful plastic bags made in Georgia in underground workshops in the 80s, from which the paint peeled off from any moisture. They sold for 2 (TWO !!!) rubles per package of a penny cost. It was impossible to use them, any attempt turned into the need for a new purchase. Therefore, they were simply carried with them, to show their "bohemianism". Therefore, the "aspirations" of people are best left alone.
                        How do they resell something and everything else.

                        I certainly did not see how you "obtaining watch technology from the Swiss." So there is no need to worry about this.
                        About what is being produced and sold now.

                        Well, now they produce and sell Russian smartphones to Western European countries? If not, then here are your words
                        In the age of smartphones, no one needs household radio equipment for nothing. Progress.

                        become meaningless within our conversation.
                        The only, in my opinion, positive change in the issue of comparing consumer goods then and now is the variety of goods that can be considered Russian, for construction and repair. And, this is just an example of both extensive and intensive development in a single industry.
                      6. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 10: 52
                        -3
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Putin did not talk about "galoshes"?

                        Quote: Nikolay310
                        instead of asking where everything is, we rejoice at 800 obsolete Soviet tanks ... interesting, but one historian is ready to take back his words about galoshes

                        Read what you comment.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I didn’t write clearly enough that Angstrem appeared not in Russia, but in the USSR?

                        The Baltic Shipyard was founded on May 1, 1856. Everything that he built, including nuclear icebreakers and cruisers, is the merit of the Republic of Ingushetia, and not the USSR.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I certainly didn't see it that way.
                        That is the source of the OBS.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Well, now they produce and sell Russian smartphones to Western European countries?

                        Cellular communication in Europe appeared at a time when paired phones were installed in the USSR, so it would be surprising if they were developed in a backward country, but now the market is already inundated.
                      7. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 12: 21
                        0
                        Read what you comment.

                        I'm reading. Therefore I will say that
                        1) First, ask yourself, you just brought the wrong passage from Nikolai than you posted in the message where you accused him of lying.
                        2) Especially for you, I wrote in advance that there was no need to "transfer the conversation from consumer goods to the defense industry."
                        The Baltic Shipyard was founded on May 1, 1856. Everything that he built, including nuclear icebreakers and cruisers, is the merit of the Republic of Ingushetia, and not the USSR.

                        Your "arguments" are getting dumber and dumber.
                        That the Baltic Shipyard was founded in 1856 it only means that not only "galoshes for Africans" were produced in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                        That is the source of the OBS.

                        Was it now your confession about the sources of the information you provided? Since my words are torn out of the text of the message. This one
                        For sure not so seen how you "obtaining watch technology from the Swiss". So there is no need to worry about this.

                        Cellular communication in Europe appeared at a time when paired phones were installed in the USSR, so it would be surprising if they were developed in a backward country, but now the market is already inundated.

                        1) Primitive manipulation and ignorance. 0G was also in the USSR, before perestroika there was continuous development, both technical and user, it was used in Russia even in the 21st century, 1G from the 80s was a highly specialized project with the same functions as 0G, only a different implementation due to the features relief of the Scandinavian countries. What can already be considered public cellular communications are 2G networks. 90s.
                        2) Oh well, "the market is now swamped", how convenient wassat
                        3) You don't even hide your prejudice with your "backward country". So I see no point in continuing the conversation.
                      8. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 14: 10
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Especially for you, I wrote in advance that there was no need to "transfer the conversation from consumer goods to the defense industry."
                        Especially for you I explain that it was about the defense industry.

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Your "arguments" are getting dumber and dumber.
                        The fact that the Baltic Shipyard was founded in 1856 means
                        exactly the same thing that some plant was founded not in the Russian Federation, but in the USSR.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Primitive manipulation and ignorance. 0G was in the USSR
                        Primitive manipulation and ignorance of what was there in the Academy of Sciences and what was for the people are two different things. The fact is that Soviet citizens looked at cellular communications as a wonder of the world.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You don't even hide your prejudice with your "backward country".
                        That is, there are no objections?
                      9. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 15: 22
                        0
                        Especially for you I explain that it was about the defense industry.

                        1) the topic of Putin's speech is not the defense industry, but consumer goods
                        2) it's still a lie
                        3) Nikolai's words - about the situation when those who talk about the bad economy of the USSR turn out to have "lost sight" of the validity of such an economic structure, since now we can quickly make up for the losses only due to those very "distortions". And the tanks here are not the most critical, if it were not for the Soviet artillery systems and stocks of shells, everything would become sad not from autumn, but at the end of spring. The front is now held only by Soviet artillery.
                        exactly the same thing that some plant was founded not in the Russian Federation, but in the USSR.

                        Your ignorance of what they write to you is very eloquent. The fact that the Baltic Plant was founded in 1856 only means that not only "galoshes for Africans" were produced in the Republic of Ingushetia
                        Primitive manipulation and ignorance of what was there in the Academy of Sciences and what was for the people are two different things. The fact is that Soviet citizens looked at cellular communications as a wonder of the world.

                        1) What "was there in the Academy of Sciences"? On what basis do you carry this peremptory nonsense? What was the connection at the Olympics-80, huh? I am more than sure that you found the USSR only as a child who, due to his age, didn’t know anything, who passed into a conscious age just in the 90s and therefore, for him, cellular communications became a "wonder of the world." For the majority of the population in developed countries, mobile WEARABLE public commercial communications (that is, cellular communications in your mind) was a wonder of the world in the 90s, in the 80s it did not exist at all.
                        That is, there are no objections?

                        And everything that has been written to you before, and that you prefer not to notice - what is this?
                      10. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 16: 19
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) the topic of Putin's speech is not the defense industry, but consumer goods

                        Which were not, as he said.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        The fact that the Baltic Shipyard was founded in 1856 means
                        exactly the same thing that some plant was founded not in the Russian Federation, but in the USSR. No more no less.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What "was in the Academy of Sciences"? On what basis do you carry this peremptory nonsense?

                        A photo of a Soviet academician with a Soviet cell phone can be easily found. The Soviet cell phone was absent in principle. Actually, there were problems with the usual connection.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And everything that has been written to you before

                        Like fairy tales about non-existent consumer goods?
                      11. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 16: 34
                        -1
                        Which were not, as he said.

                        You as an interlocutor become completely uninteresting. Blatant nonsense no desire to comment
                        exactly the same thing that some plant was founded not in the Russian Federation, but in the USSR. No more no less.

                        So call it THE SAME lol
                        A photo of a Soviet academician with a Soviet cell phone can be easily found. The Soviet cell phone was absent in principle. Actually, there were problems with the usual connection.

                        You are simply ignorant. And you pass off your ignorance as the truth.
                        Like fairy tales about non-existent consumer goods?

                        wassat
                        Did you understand that you blurted out? Yes, "non-existent consumer goods in the USSR" is a fairy tale, that is, fiction. And in your performance - just a stupid lie.
                      12. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 18: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You as an interlocutor become completely uninteresting.
                        because I don't believe in fairy tales.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        So call it THE SAME
                        Well, you were outraged by the fact that the plant was founded in the USSR, how can you attribute it to Russia. Your logic in relation to the USSR.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You are simply ignorant.
                        Well, how was the situation with cellular communication, besides a photo of an academician with a phone?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Yes, "non-existent consumer goods in the USSR" is a fairy tale, that is, fiction.
                        That is, there were no queues, no shortages, no cronyism, no hunting for equipment made abroad.
                        Kindergarten teacher asks:
                        - Children, which country has the most beautiful toys?
                        Children (in chorus):
                        - In Soviet Union!
                        The teacher:
                        - And in which country are the most elegant children's clothes?
                        Children (in chorus):
                        - In Soviet Union!
                        The teacher:
                        - Which country has the happiest childhood?
                        Children (in chorus):
                        - In Soviet Union!
                        Suddenly Vovochka roared.
                        The teacher:
                        - Vovochka, why are you crying?
                        Little Johnny (through tears):
                        - I want to live in the Soviet Union!
                      13. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 19: 02
                        -1
                        because I don't believe in fairy tales.

                        Believe
                        Well, you were outraged by the fact that the plant was founded in the USSR, how can you attribute it to Russia. Your logic in relation to the USSR.

                        Again a lie. Or another manifestation of the inability to perceive information. Show me where I say this.
                        Well, how was the situation with cellular communication, besides a photo of an academician with a phone?

                        To the restructuring of tens of thousands of subscribers with repeater stations in a hundred cities.
                        That is, there were no queues, no shortages, no cronyism, no hunting for equipment made abroad.

                        That is, it does not reach you that in the absence of consumer goods, queues, shortages, and blat are impossible. Since there is a queue for something, there is a lack of something, an illegal form of supply of something. And this is something - TNP. Moreover, it is already completely clear that you do not even understand what consumer goods are, since you persist in your stupidity about their absence.
                      14. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 19: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Believe
                        Unfortunately for you, no.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Show me where I say this.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I didn’t write clearly enough that Angstrem appeared not in Russia, but in the USSR?
                        Decide already.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic

                        To the restructuring of tens of thousands of subscribers with repeater stations in a hundred cities.

                        And where were they?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        That is, it does not reach you that in the absence of consumer goods, queues, shortages, and blat are impossible.

                        That is, the presence of all of the above indicates the presence of a sufficient amount of consumer goods?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Moreover, it is already completely clear that you do not even understand what consumer goods are, since you persist in your stupidity about their absence.
                        We are discussing consumer goods here, but if you have something else, please specify.
                      15. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 09: 15
                        0
                        Decide already.

                        I decided - you do not perceive information or primitively manipulate. The phrase is simply taken out of the context of the correspondence.
                        I repeat the question
                        call it SAME

                        And where were they?

                        IN THE USSR. I understand that for a child of perestroika and the 90s, this is stunning news.
                        That is, the presence of all of the above indicates the presence of a sufficient amount of consumer goods?

                        That is, it does not reach you that when
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        non-existent consumer goods

                        there can be no queues or shortages.
                        We are discussing consumer goods here, but if you have something else, please specify.

                        Yes, we are discussing consumer goods. Do you understand what consumer goods are? What?
                      16. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 October 2022 09: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I have decided - you do not perceive information
                        In other words, I read carefully.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        IN THE USSR. I understand that
                        Well, where exactly?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        there can be no queues or shortages.
                        That is, you claim that
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Does the presence of all of the above indicate the presence of a sufficient amount of consumer goods?
                        How is it again?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        for the child of perestroika and the 90s
                        if you seriously believe in the nonsense that you write, then I argue with a child who didn’t even catch perestroika.
                      17. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 10: 07
                        0
                        you choose not to notice
                        call it SAME

                        Do you understand what consumer goods are? What?


                        Well, where exactly?

                        Minsk, Kyiv, Kuibyshev, Voronezh, Moscow, Leningrad, Tashkent, Budapest, Sofia... Enough? Or do you list all the cities in general? Or maybe you will require to name tens of thousands of names? I won't be surprised.
                        That is, you claim that
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Does the presence of all of the above indicate the presence of a sufficient amount of consumer goods?

                        Where do I state this? You once again assign to the interlocutor what he did not say.
                        if you seriously believe in the nonsense that you write, then I argue with a child who didn’t even catch perestroika.

                        What nonsense? The fact that the USSR exported not only galoshes for Africans? What did those categories of consumer goods export to Western Europe that Russia does not export now? That mobile communications were introduced in the USSR before perestroika? What is this nonsense? What about your ignorance?
                      18. The comment was deleted.
                      19. The comment was deleted.
                      20. The comment was deleted.
                      21. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 10: 52
                        -2
                        Quote from warlord
                        If the government wanted to, it would have taken Kyiv in the first 2 months.. This is a conspiracy!

                        So go ahead and show me how.
                      22. Warlord
                        Warlord 6 November 2022 11: 57
                        0
                        8 years ago I would have shown, but I am not fit for military service for health reasons. Disappointed? Yes, but I condemn the crimes of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the murder of civilians is, as Ramzan Kadyrov would say, Haram!
                        The authorities had 8 years to resolve this issue, instead they left the ripened abscess. The result is reaping now, whose fault is it? Russia had 8 years to prepare mobilization reserves and train, to establish the production of Armats, which were only seen at Parades. Serdyukov was arrested but not executed. This is why the people rightly believe that the 5th column is ruled by the enemies of the people. Putin should step down and give young and determined patriots power.
                      23. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 6 November 2022 12: 28
                        0
                        Quote from warlord
                        The authorities had 8 years to resolve this issue

                        The question is what the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation could really do 8 years ago.
                        Quote from warlord
                        Russia had 8 years to prepare mobilization reserves

                        And who is being called now, if they are not?
                        Quote from warlord
                        set up the production of Armat

                        Is it necessary? As the current situation shows, a lot of armored vehicles are needed, and the Armata tank is far from cheap.
                        Quote from warlord
                        Why does the people rightly believe that the 5th column is in power enemies of the people

                        Yes, yes, yes, we are controlled by the Anglo-Saxons ... True, none of these "patriots" can clearly answer with whom we are then fighting.
                      24. Lepsik
                        Lepsik 18 October 2022 18: 14
                        0
                        And the Mexicans don't know.
                        Very much even in a course and very much praise.
                      25. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 09: 11
                        -1
                        And the Mexicans don't know.
                        Very much even in a course and very much praise.

                        stupid lie
                      26. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 10: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        stupid lie

                        True eyes hurts?
                      27. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 11: 13
                        -1
                        What is the truth?
                        If, according to yesterday's messages, I still had a glimmer of hope that perhaps I was wrong, and you are not just thoughtlessly and stupidly denying reality, but simply have not yet had time to sort out some issues, then after such your trick, my doubts disappeared.
                        There are no airlines in Mexico that have SuperJets in their fleet. And the one that had them got rid of them - the costs for them exceeded the income from them - since they were idle more than they flew - it’s not enough to build an aircraft, you need to create a service network, but Sukhoi has not yet been able to do this and is unlikely to be able to. Interjet bet... and lost. Armavia, Kartika Airlines, Orient, Interjet, Sky Aviation, Comlux, Greenland Sky, Air Armenia, Air Leisure, VLM Airlines, Alliance Air, Peruvian Airlines, Adria Airways - through all of them we tried to bring our aircraft to the market. And all these companies have ceased their activities.
                      28. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 14: 17
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        There are no airlines in Mexico that have SuperJets in their fleet. And the one who had got rid of them

                        Because it broke? I would just like to see where it says that because of them?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Armavia, Kartika Airlines, Orient, Interjet, Sky Aviation, Comlux, Greenland Sky, Air Armenia, Air Leisure, VLM Airlines, Alliance Air, Peruvian Airlines, Adria Airways - through all of them we tried to bring our aircraft to the market.

                        Did all these companies have it? I looked at a couple and did not find any superjets.
                      29. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 15: 34
                        -1
                        Because it broke?

                        No
                        I would just like to see where it says that because of them?

                        I would like to have a look. It will be more useful pastime.
                        Did all these companies have it? I looked at a couple and did not find any superjets.

                        All companies had orders. Within their framework, only Armavia, Interjet, Sky Aviation, Komlux received part of the aircraft.
                      30. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 16: 14
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I would like to have a look. It will be more useful pastime.

                        That is the source of the OBS.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        All companies had orders. Within their framework, part of the aircraft received only

                        So they didn't have planes?
                      31. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 16: 22
                        -1
                        That is, the source of the OBS

                        That is, make an effort and find information.
                        So they didn't have planes?

                        It seems to be clearly written who partially received the planes, and who did not at all.
                      32. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 18: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        That is, make an effort

                        Should I look for confirmation of your words? What about yourself?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It seems to be clearly written who partially received the planes, and who did not at all.

                        And what do those who have not received them have not yet come up with?
                      33. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 18: 49
                        -1
                        Should I look for confirmation of your words? What about yourself?

                        Sami what? Should I take care of your education? It would make sense if your ignorance were not militant. Otherwise, this is a standard practice for a certain contingent - to divert from the essence of the conversation with third-party sketches, constantly demanding confirmation of the answers to these sketches.
                        As soon as you confirm the "praise of the Mexicans", then you can immediately demand something in return.
                        And what do those who have not received them have not yet come up with?

                        And what and to what are you trying to find a relationship here:
                        Armavia, Kartika Airlines, Orient, Interjet, Sky Aviation, Comlux, Greenland Sky, Air Armenia, Air Leisure, VLM Airlines, Alliance Air, Peruvian Airlines, Adria Airways - through all of them we tried to bring our aircraft to the market.

                        If this is just a list of companies through which we tried to bring our aircraft to the international air transportation market.
                      34. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 19: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Sami what? Should I take care of your education?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is the source of the OBS.


                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        If this is just a list of companies through which we tried to bring our aircraft to the international air transportation market.
                        Because
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And all these companies have ceased their activities.
                        Don't remember what you wrote?
                      35. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 09: 03
                        0
                        That is the source of the OBS.

                        No
                        Confirm that the Mexicans praise the SuperJet.
                        Don't remember what you wrote?

                        Don't worry about my memory. AND? They didn't stop?
                      36. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 October 2022 09: 30
                        0
                        https://1prime.ru/transport/20200509/831415000.html
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Don't worry about my memory. AND? They didn't stop?

                        That is, they did not have superjets, but the fact that they stopped their activities is connected with superjets. What is it like?
                      37. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 09: 47
                        0
                        https://1prime.ru/transport/20200509/831415000.html

                        Another fake link. Which is another confirmation that you do not understand what you are showing. If only because as of May 2020, Interjet did not have 22 aircraft. This
                        "Interjet says the reason for working with the Superjet 100 is that they are ideal to meet the low demand the airline is currently facing."

                        veiled - Boeing stopped working with us, so we have no choice. And the fact that immediately after this it is written that 19 out of 22 aircraft are idle, that the flight time on board is 20 hours a week (!!!), that they are idle due to difficulties with service does not tell you anything at all, right? Now there are 2 dozen airlines in Mexico, so where can Mexicans praise the Superjet?
                        That is, they did not have superjets, but the fact that they stopped their activities is connected with superjets. What is it like?

                        And where does it say that they all stopped their activities due to the order of Superjets? Do you like to think out for the interlocutor what he did not say?
                      38. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 October 2022 12: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        veiled - Boeing stopped working with us, so we have no choice

                        Veiled by you? And why would Boeing stop working with them? Well, you certainly didn’t read about what it says about the readiness to organize a service center.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And where does it say that they all stopped their activities due to the order of Superjets?

                        Then what does their closure have to do with superjets?
                      39. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 13: 32
                        0
                        Veiled by you?

                        No
                        And why would Boeing stop working with them?

                        Didn't even begin to actually start.
                        Well, you certainly didn’t read about what it says about the readiness to organize a service center.

                        I read it and laughed. Your "knowledge" of the topic is hastily snatched articles from a Google search, moreover, non-core ones, moreover, from an interested party. The news on your link appeared in 2020, but describes the situation as of 2015. Anyone who is aware of the situation with Superjets will understand this. And on such "news" the competence of the interlocutor is instantly checked tongue Tell me about the service center in Mexico wassat
                        Then what does their closure have to do with superjets?

                        Ask yourself this question, because stuffing, what I said, you did the same. And now you expose yourself? laughing
                      40. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 October 2022 16: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Didn't even begin to actually start.

                        That's right, because another giant, Airbus, worked with them. And most of the planes they had from him. So what about knowledge of the topic?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Ask yourself this question, because stuffing, what I said, you did the same.

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Armavia, Kartika Airlines, Orient, Interjet, Sky Aviation, Comlux, Greenland Sky, Air Armenia, Air Leisure, VLM Airlines, Alliance Air, Peruvian Airlines, Adria Airways - through all of them we tried to bring our aircraft to the market. And all these companies have ceased their activities.

                        Quote: Dart2027

                        Then what does their closure have to do with superjets?
                      41. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 20 October 2022 16: 36
                        0
                        That's right, because another giant, Airbus, worked with them. And most of the planes they had from him. So what about knowledge of the topic?

                        Yes, do not disgrace you completely, an expert on the topic. Boeing did not supply its aircraft to Interjet because they had Airbuses in their fleet. What a stupid assumption (especially in the era of leasing) - to show you companies that have cars from both aircraft giants on the wing?
                        I listen attentively about the service center in Mexico, about the Superjets flying there and the enthusiasm of the Mexicans.
                        Then what does their closure have to do with superjets?

                        Once again, for the gifted, here's your stuffing
                        That is, they did not have superjets, but the fact that they stopped their activities is connected with superjets.

                        The words you copied from me do not indicate the connection between the cessation of activities and the presence of Superjets in them. And it can't be AT LEAST BECAUSE I know who got them and who broke the contract. The fact that you consider it convenient for yourself to interpret my words in this way, passing off correlation as a causal relationship, is not my problem.
                      42. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 October 2022 19: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Yes, do not disgrace you completely, an expert on the topic. Boeing did not supply its aircraft to Interjet because they had Airbuses in their fleet.

                        I remind you that you, trying to say at least something, blurted out:
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Boeing stopped working with us, so we have no choice
                        Yes, do not disgrace you completely, an expert on the topic.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        The words you copied from me do not indicate the connection between the cessation of activities and the presence of Superjets in them. And it cannot be AT LEAST BECAUSE I know who received them and who broke the contract.

                        That is, you admit that you initially wrote nonsense in the hope that it would suddenly work.
                      43. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 October 2022 09: 32
                        0
                        I remind you that you, trying to say at least something, blurted out

                        I know very well what I'm telling you. AND? You again decided to "denounce" without knowing the topic? Good luck wassat Tell me how the American cargo carrier Interjet West is related to the Mexican passenger carrier Interjet? And then I'll enlighten you about what Boeing has to do with it tongue
                        That is, you admit that you initially wrote nonsense in the hope that it would suddenly work.

                        Problem with perception of information?
                        The fact that you consider it convenient for yourself to interpret my words in this way, passing off correlation as a causal relationship, is not my problem.
                        Nonsense was originally written by you and only you
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        True eyes hurts?

                        Considering this to be "true"
                        Very much even in a course and very much praise.

                        in response to this
                        And it turns out that 20 SuperJets are flying in Mexico. The Mexicans don't know.

                        And since you cannot confirm your nonsense for obvious reasons, you simply began to distort my words in order to blur the topic. What is here, what is in communication about "galoshes".
                      44. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 21 October 2022 10: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Tell me what is the relationship between the American cargo carrier Interjet West and the Mexican passenger carrier Interjet?

                        That is, apart from noticing a typo, there is nothing to object to and all your attempts to say something have ended.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        The fact that you consider it convenient for yourself to interpret my words in this way, passing off correlation as a causal relationship, is not my problem.

                        That is, you admit that you initially wrote nonsense in the hope that it would suddenly work.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And since you cannot confirm your nonsense for obvious reasons, you simply began to distort my words in order to blur the topic. What is here, what is in communication about "galoshes".
                        And since you cannot confirm your nonsense for obvious reasons, you simply began to distort my words in order to blur the topic. What is here, what is in communication about "galoshes".
                      45. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 October 2022 10: 37
                        0
                        That is, apart from noticing a typo, there is nothing to object to and all your attempts to say something have ended.

                        What is this set of letters? I didn't "say something", I said quite specific things. To which you cannot answer anything, because you got into a topic, the knowledge of which is a momentary search on the Internet.
                        That is, you admit that you initially wrote nonsense in the hope that it would suddenly work.

                        And since you cannot confirm your nonsense for obvious reasons, you simply began to distort my words in order to blur the topic. What is here, what is in communication about "galoshes".

                        You have passed into the last stage of militant Internet ignorance - parroting. It saves militant internet ignoramuses from having to answer substantive questions they can't answer. Since the interlocutor loses interest in a meaningless conversation.
                      46. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 21 October 2022 10: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What is this set of letters? I didn't "say something", I said quite specific things.
                        Consisting in the fact that they say the superjet was bought by those who could not buy anything else, although they calmly bought aircraft from another manufacturer. I said very specific things. To which you cannot answer anything, because you got into a topic in which knowledge is ideological clichés.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You have reached the final stage of militant internet ignoramus
                        that is, there is nothing to object.
                      47. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 21 October 2022 11: 07
                        0
                        Consisting in the fact that they say the superjet was bought by those who could not buy anything else, although they calmly bought aircraft from another manufacturer

                        belay
                        I said very specific things.

                        Oh, and what else: consumer goods did not exist in the USSR, there was no mobile communication, it is true that 20 of our Superjets fly in Mexico, and so on.
                        ideological stamps

                        Name at least one "ideological stamp" that I used in this thread.
                        that is, there is nothing to object.

                        A simple explanation - you go to the pet store and stand near the parrot. Will you object to him in response to his parroting? Me not. So here.
                      48. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 21 October 2022 11: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Oh, and what
                        corresponding to the truth, unlike your fairy tales.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Name at least one "ideological stamp"
                        What was good in the USSR with consumer goods, etc.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        A simple explanation - you go to the pet store and stand near the parrot. Will you object to him in response to his parroting?
                        That is, you consider yourself to be at the level of a parrot? Self-critical.
              2. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 19 October 2022 10: 37
                -2
                Quote: Dart2027
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Does it somehow change that not only Africans, and not only galoshes?
                It somehow changes what
                Quote: Dart2027
                There really was a problem with consumer goods in the USSR
                not to mention the fact that the same watches were created on the basis of technologies received from the Swiss, and the radio engineering of the USSR was in the category "for the poor."
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                It doesn't matter to you who to write to, as I understand it.
                That is, there is nothing to argue.

                What difference does it make on the basis of whose technologies the goods were created? Now at the factories of Putin, beloved by you, almost all equipment and technologies are imported. So there was a phrase about galoshes.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 19 October 2022 14: 18
                  -2
                  Quote: Pilat2009
                  So there was a phrase about galoshes.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  About the crisis. Yes, the crisis was deep, and we "fell" more than many countries, absolutely sure. What is it because of? Due to the fact that we have a one-sided economy. And what did she do yesterday? Yes, it has developed like this for 70 years. Because everything we made ...
                  Yes, my dears, yes. No need to debate. The fact is that what we produced, and no need to wave your hands, was not needed by anyone, because no one bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That's the whole point.
                  We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense industry after the Great Patriotic War.
                  Voice from the audience:
                  - And the first satellite.
                  V. V. Putin:
                  - Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet regime, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
                  But consumer goods... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.

                  Read how the conversation started.
            2. alexey sidykin
              alexey sidykin 18 October 2022 18: 50
              -4
              Just like you don’t care what to write now ... at least an outright lie, just to say how bad everything is with us ... for whom do you work as a citizen?
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 09: 16
                +3
                It remains to indicate this "outright lie", if possible.
                Because your ceiling is "who do you work for, a citizen."
                1. alexey sidykin
                  alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 15: 38
                  -2
                  In a lie you have already been caught here more than once ...
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 16: 03
                    0
                    In a lie you have already been caught here more than once ...

                    Empty chatter. You failed to back up your words.
          2. aars
            aars 18 October 2022 13: 15
            +16
            Worked as an electrician on a drilling rig
            And I had a 630 kW synchronous motor manufactured in 1987, it worked without comment in 2021
            And the pumps of the 600s were also of comparable age

            We are still largely leaving at the expense of the Soviet legacy, even in sectors that do not experience a shortage of funding

            And I also have a Soviet refrigerator in my dacha, I got it from my father
            Freon never even refilled, it just works

            There were problems for sure.
            But the varied "darkness" about the USSR is largely propaganda and nonsense
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 18 October 2022 15: 02
              -5
              Quote: aars
              worked flawlessly in 2021

              The margin of safety in Soviet technology was triple, this is a fact. But if you compare the USSR computer and the US computer in terms of its functionality, it becomes sad.
              Quote: aars
              But the varied "darkness" about the USSR is largely propaganda and nonsense
              In many ways. But the stories about how everything was wonderful there also strongly do not correspond to reality. In this sense, Putin told the truth - the defense industry, space, global scientific research, everything was there, but the everyday life was at a minimum level.
              1. Barberry25
                Barberry25 18 October 2022 20: 57
                0
                it's not a margin of safety .. the point is that we need to sharply get equipment to support 300 troops, and this is 000 regiments - and we have a choice - either use one and a half plants for the production of new tanks, or use these one and a half plants for the production of new ones , use a few more to modernize the t-150/72 to acceptable levels of t-80b72m / 3bvm and a few more factories to modernize the t-80 and return the t-62b / 72b to service, which will make it possible to obtain at least 80-100 tanks per month for the needs of the front, instead of 150-10 tanks
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 18 October 2022 22: 56
                  -2
                  Quote: Barberry25
                  it's not about the margin of safety .. the fact is that we need to sharply get equipment to support 300 troops

                  At the moment, not military equipment is being discussed, but civilian.
                  But I agree with what you write.
                  1. Barberry25
                    Barberry25 19 October 2022 11: 02
                    +1
                    well then, sorry, by the way, about civilian equipment .. taking into account the increase in the number of troops, I already see a problem with equipping troops with lightly armored vehicles, we don’t have such a number of armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers in a month, but we need up to about 30 units, if this is done on business ..the only option I see is an increase in the production of mraps-Ural explosives / military-industrial complex, Ural coinage, Kamaz shot, gas athlete, gas snowstorm






                    they are all built in fact by reworking civilian trucks, which will allow them to be built in a number of industries and a lot, not to mention the support of the automotive industry
                    1. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 19 October 2022 13: 21
                      -2
                      Quote: Barberry25
                      well then, sorry, by the way, about civilian equipment .. taking into account the increase in the number of troops, I already see a problem with equipping troops with lightly armored vehicles, we don’t have such a number of armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers in a month, but we need up to about 30 units, if this is done on business ..the only option I see is an increase in the production of mraps-Ural explosives / military-industrial complex, Ural coinage, Kamaz shot, gas athlete, gas snowstorm






                      they are all built in fact by reworking civilian trucks, which will allow them to be built in a number of industries and a lot, not to mention the support of the automotive industry

                      There was an article here about the shortage of trucks by the army. For various reasons, factories are in no hurry to make military options. Kamaz generally stated that it did not want to be subject to sanctions, because it cannot be without imports
                      1. Barberry25
                        Barberry25 19 October 2022 13: 40
                        0
                        Well, the factories will do it if there is an order, about "Kamaz doesn't want" - well, that means let them supply car kits for a remdiesel or a Muromteplovoz where they will be mass-produced, although it honestly makes me laugh when they say "we don't want sanctions", since they are like once they hit anyway, and if Russia loses the war, then they won’t be at all
            2. MBRSS
              MBRSS 18 October 2022 15: 42
              +5
              And I also have a Soviet refrigerator in my dacha, I got it from my father

              Likewise! When I looked at the release date of my country Saratov-2, I just went nuts - the end of the 1950s (I don’t remember the exact year). And working! Simply fantastic!!! (Freon was not updated either.)
        2. Fangaro
          Fangaro 19 October 2022 12: 02
          0
          Which of our radios went to Great Britain and France by the tens of thousands? I don’t ask about anything else, but about radio receivers - which ones?
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 13: 00
            0
            Rigonda-Symphony (Symphony, Riga)
            VEGA-2 (Spring-2, Zaporozhye)
            Astrad Orion and Micro (MICRO, Zelenograd and Minsk)
            Cosmos, Yura and Globus (Cosmos, Sarapul)
            SURPRIS (Surprise, Grozny)
            Vega, F3TR9, Astrad (Riga-302, Riga)
            Signal, Astrad Сygnus (Signal, Kamensk-Uralsky)
            VEGA JADE and COMIX-403 (Sokol-403, Moscow)
            VEGA Sapphire MK 2 (Russia-303, Chelyabinsk)
            SELENA (Ocean, Minsk)
            VEF-206 (I think there is no need to explain here)
            ZIRCON 6TR10, SOLAR, MEREDIAN (Meridian, Kyiv)
            Leningrad-004 (Leningrad-002, Leningrad)
            EuroMatic-001 and Salute-001 (Salyut-001, Riga)
            and so on
      2. MBRSS
        MBRSS 18 October 2022 15: 34
        +10
        Putin: "But consumer goods ... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? They were not."
        -- firstly, "... like Trotsky." And secondly, what would we do now if, instead of producing "cool, strong" weapons, we would be carried away by the production of consumer goods? Why "instead"? Yes, because the country's resources are not rubber, but it was necessary to restrain NATO.
        In short, Putin is a hypocrite and anti-Soviet. But cunning. Recently, he somehow moderated his anti-Soviet rhetoric, noting that the people liked it less and less.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 18 October 2022 16: 39
          -6
          Quote: MBRBS
          And secondly, what would we do now if, instead of producing "cool, strong" weapons, we would be carried away by the production of consumer goods? Why "instead"? Yes, because the country's resources are not rubber, but it was necessary to restrain NATO.

          But most of these weapons rotted in warehouses and did nothing for the USSR. It is clear that guns are needed and will always be needed, but it will not be possible to live long without oil.
          Quote: MBRBS
          Recently, he somehow moderated his anti-Soviet rhetoric.

          With the beginning of the "decommunization of Ukraine named after Lenin"?
          1. MBRSS
            MBRSS 18 October 2022 18: 04
            0
            rotted in warehouses and nothing helped the USSR.

            It would not be necessary to comment on such nonsense, but I could not resist. Not a minus - others, I hope, will help with this :)
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 18 October 2022 20: 35
              -5
              Quote: MBRBS
              no need to comment on such nonsense

              And why nonsense is a fact. Most of the weapons that were riveted for the war with NATO turned out to be tritely superfluous. Plus, an incomprehensible practice was imposed to carry out a complete replacement of weapons with the advent of new developments. That is, a new one, of course, is needed, but the same T-62s could be modernized and used for another 10 years, rather than sending fully combat-ready vehicles for storage, saving on the production of new ones.
              1. Former soldier
                Former soldier 18 October 2022 21: 40
                +3
                Most of the weapons that were riveted for the war with NATO turned out to be tritely superfluous.

                And who knew that it would be superfluous? And suddenly everything turned out so that it turned out to be necessary? Remember, people are not gods and do not know what will happen ahead. That is why they are preparing for the future. By the way, the situation is the same in the USA - whole fields of very outdated equipment.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 18 October 2022 23: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: Former soldier
                  And suddenly everything turned out so that it turned out to be necessary?

                  A direct clash with NATO was guaranteed to lead to the use of nuclear weapons, but even without taking this into account, what prevented modernization programs from being carried out instead of senseless storage. Well, it’s impossible to make a breakthrough tank out of the T-62, so why not put a howitzer on its chassis, converting it into a self-propelled gun? Or how did they deal with trophies in Israel - they converted the T-55 into an armored personnel carrier, and already in the 1980s? What's the point of keeping a weapon that, if something happens, is corny outdated, and its modernization will take time, which will not happen? When the first reports about the T-62 appeared, they talked about 6000 tanks, and now they are talking about upgrading only 800.
                  Quote: Former soldier
                  By the way, the situation is the same in the USA - whole fields of very outdated equipment.

                  The United States could afford it, since initially they had more extensive resources, although they did stupid things too.
                  1. Former soldier
                    Former soldier 18 October 2022 23: 42
                    +3
                    Direct clash with NATO guaranteed to lead to the use of nuclear weapons

                    It's like looking. Now NATO is practically participating, but there are no nuclear strikes. Conventional weapons were used. And it turns out that quasi-strategic goals can be achieved by conventional methods. And in a similar situation in the 70-80s, the T-62 was quite a combat unit. This is, firstly, and secondly, in the event of a nuclear strike on the European part of the USSR, at that time it was quite possible to move this entire armada of armored vehicles accumulated to Western Europe. There is nothing more to lose on its territory except radioactive dust. So they would have looked at how the USA is hammering nuclear charges on the cities of its European allies.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 19 October 2022 07: 10
                      -2
                      Quote: Former soldier
                      There is nothing more to lose on its territory except radioactive dust. So they would have looked at how the USA is hammering nuclear charges on the cities of its European allies.

                      Easy and casual. In this sense, they are generally without complexes.
                      Quote: Former soldier
                      and secondly, in the event of a nuclear strike on the European part of the USSR, at that time it was quite possible to move all this accumulated armada of armored vehicles to Western Europe

                      It wouldn't work. Removing tanks from mothballing and forming combat-ready units would take a lot of time, plus the logistics to supply this entire armada.
                      1. Former soldier
                        Former soldier 19 October 2022 10: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It wouldn't work. Removing tanks from mothballing and forming combat-ready units would take a lot of time, plus the logistics to supply this entire armada.

                        Does not matter. There were much more combat-ready units than, for example, now, and the crews from the reserve are more ready. My comrade, a lieutenant in the reserve tanker, disappeared from work for a week. It turns out that without any preludes they drove equipment around the tankodrome. Logistics and supply? Basically, what you find is yours.
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 19 October 2022 10: 55
                        -1
                        Quote: Former soldier
                        There were combat-ready units

                        Not units, but units, that is, battalions, regiments, etc. It is clear that technology outdated by a decade will not be as backward as by half a century.
                        Quote: Former soldier
                        Logistics and supply? Basically, what you find is yours.

                        Can you find spare parts for armored vehicles? Fuel and ammunition?
                      3. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 19 October 2022 13: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Former soldier
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It wouldn't work. Removing tanks from mothballing and forming combat-ready units would take a lot of time, plus the logistics to supply this entire armada.

                        Does not matter. There were much more combat-ready units than, for example, now, and the crews from the reserve are more ready. My comrade, a lieutenant in the reserve tanker, disappeared from work for a week. It turns out that without any preludes they drove equipment around the tankodrome. Logistics and supply? Basically, what you find is yours.

                        And did we find much in Ukraine? Aviation, helicopters and homing submunitions were already quite successfully operating against tanks.
                    2. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 19 October 2022 11: 55
                      0
                      Quote: Former soldier
                      This is, firstly, and secondly, in the event of a nuclear strike on the European part of the USSR, at that time it was quite possible to move this entire armada of armored vehicles accumulated to Western Europe.

                      In the event of a nuclear strike on the European part of the USSR, there would be no need to move anyone anywhere. For this meant the beginning of a global nuclear war, in which both blocs would actively glass each other's territories.
                      In the same Europe, "Pioneers" and R-12 would have worked.
              2. Victor Leningradets
                Victor Leningradets 19 October 2022 07: 22
                +2
                Since NATO did not attack the USSR, it is not superfluous. And what rotted in the warehouses had to be replaced in a timely manner with a new mobile reserve.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 October 2022 11: 35
          0
          Quote: MBRBS
          And secondly, what would we do now if, instead of producing "cool, strong" weapons, we would be carried away by the production of consumer goods?

          Would live in the USSR. Because it is very difficult to believe in the inevitable triumph of communism and advanced teaching, when those consumer goods that can really be used should not be bought, but get.
          It is impossible to leave all the time at the expense of the labor enthusiasm of the masses, without supporting it financially. Especially when an ideological adversary pours into the ears sweet speeches about 300 varieties of sausage, their houses with workers and the free sale of cars to anyone who wants them - without an appointment and a long queue.
          Quote: MBRBS
          Yes, because the country's resources are not rubber, but it was necessary to restrain NATO.

          Or maybe it was necessary to moderate the appetites of the military-industrial complex a little, huh? And the military too? So that, for example, they do not build an army based on march to the English Channel - which would still end in mutual nuclear annihilation?
          Maybe the admirals needed to straighten their brains? So that they do not order ships over and over again, which had nowhere to base and repair - after which they put them against the wall and ordered new ones?
      3. ada
        ada 18 October 2022 19: 48
        +3
        Quote: Dart2027
        ... Can you take back your words?
        Have pity on the wolves in the forest, there are so few of them wassat
  9. Yrec
    Yrec 18 October 2022 11: 20
    +6
    There is such a concept unfamiliar to "experts" as the economy of war. To put it very simply in the language of computer RTS players, it looks like rebuild-rivet-dunk. You need to rivet and repair your equipment faster than the enemy has time to knock it out. Whoever wins this race wins. The production cycle of any modern military equipment, especially tanks, is tens of months. The life of equipment in a high-intensity conflict is about 2-3 weeks. Syria lost 1200 tanks in the first year of the civil war. The start of use in the SVO T-62 is a completely logical move. There are many of them, and the Ukrainians have fewer and fewer tanks. All anti-tank weapons are cumulative and the forehead of the T-72 with remote sensing does not greatly exceed the forehead of the T-62 with remote sensing in terms of resistance to godfather. And the main striking force of the SV is tanks, and whoever has more of them is advancing.
    1. Postcode
      Postcode 18 October 2022 11: 39
      +2
      According to the principle of the Chinese in the 60s, put up your "Grads", and we will advance and infiltrate in small groups of 2 - 3 million people?))) That is, a "doomsday" tank, or a "tank of one battle" for the crew, in I mean, fill in fuel and lubricants no more than half a tank, give out no more than 5 shots, one hell, it won’t go further, and it won’t have time to shoot. The enemy has been there for a month now, as he has been begging for Abrams and Leoperds, but they will get it .... And they will have a safari ...
      1. Yrec
        Yrec 18 October 2022 11: 56
        +4
        Tank vs tank combat is the exception rather than the rule. Even during WWII with tens of thousands of tanks, the main losses were from anti-tank artillery, mines and bombs. In any case, the tank operates as part of a unit with artillery support with air support, etc. A safari will not work, anyway.
        1. Postcode
          Postcode 18 October 2022 13: 17
          +2
          This is according to the BU SV, but in reality, look at the "news from the front", the videos on TLG, I highly recommend, dispel all myths and doubts. Not a single attack by an adversary, in practice, is complete without reinforcement by tanks, rarely when our rod is only on infantry fighting vehicles. especially on foot. (I don’t mean urban battles)
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 October 2022 11: 58
          0
          Quote: Yrec
          Tank vs tank combat is the exception rather than the rule.

          This rule is. After the end of WWII, the concept changed - and now the tank is considered one of the anti-tank weapons.
          Actually, the constant development and refinement of "crowbars" and "kuma" shows what goals for the tank have become the main ones.
    2. Hypertension
      Hypertension 18 October 2022 11: 58
      +12
      Quote: Yrec
      You need to rivet and repair your equipment faster than the enemy has time to knock it out. The one who wins this race wins... ...The start of using the T-62 in the SVO is a completely logical move. There are many of them, and the Ukrainians have fewer and fewer tanks.

      Well ... I somehow thought that the confrontation between the 2nd and 22nd armies of the world would look like a qualitative superiority of the 2nd in tactics and weapons ...
      Quote: Yrec
      And the main striking force of the SV is tanks, and whoever has more of them is advancing.

      With the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Izyum, they didn’t seem to have more tanks? Then it became more when they captured the abandoned tanks of the RF Armed Forces.
      1. Yrec
        Yrec 18 October 2022 12: 04
        +5
        This question is better addressed to the Ministry of Defense, the General Staff, the rear service and other Kutuzovs in our military-political leadership.
      2. Alexander Vorontsov
        18 October 2022 13: 47
        +4
        Quote: Hyperion
        Well ... I thought it was a sinful thing that the confrontation between the 2nd and 22nd armies of the world would be

        Those. you sinfully thought that the Americans would let Russia deal with their offspring 1 on 1?
        1. Hypertension
          Hypertension 18 October 2022 14: 04
          +2
          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          Those. you sinfully thought that the Americans would let Russia deal with their offspring 1 on 1?

          Partial assistance of the Americans raised the rating of the Ukrainian army? And if so, how much do you think? APU became the 3rd, 5th, 10th army of the world? Judging by aviation (which plays one of the main roles in modern databases), the UkroVVS generally flew from 34th place to the bottom of the list.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            18 October 2022 15: 03
            +9
            Quote: Hyperion
            Partial assistance of the Americans raised the rating of the Ukrainian army? And if so, how much do you think? APU became the 3rd, 5th, 10th army of the world? Judging by aviation (which plays one of the main roles in modern databases), the Ukrovs generally flew from 34th place to the bottom of the list.

            To begin with, let's figure out where the bike about the 2nd army of the world came from. By what parameter is Russia 2nd? on the budget from 70 to 700 in the USA? By number? From combat experience? By the manufacturability of weapons? It would be more objective to say that Russia occupies 3rd to 6th place in the world.

            With regard to "partial assistance to the United States."
            Take at least Cruise missiles caliber - if Ukraine were an isolated country, this weapon alone could decide the outcome of the war, even against the backdrop of the game that our command was doing. Simply by the fact that they would destroy all factories and warehouses.

            But the United States is constantly bringing everything you need. And the bombing of railways will not fundamentally change anything, because the United States already has 20 years of experience in supplying groups like ISIS in conditions when the enemy destroys centralized supply. Or about ISIS, you will also say that they made their own weapons, and the United States is so ... partial help?

            Communication - Ukrainians would have big problems because of our EW systems. But the US gave them Starlink. That is why Ukrainians are so fuming when Musk starts to swell.

            The successes of anti-tank warfare are associated with the supply of NLAW and Javelins in huge quantities. The most advanced systems.

            The entire constellation of US satellites is working for Ukraine now.

            NATO reconnaissance aircraft reveal the radio-electronic situation, while the American HAYMARS and anti-radar missiles strike and knock out our electronic warfare systems and air defense surveillance radars.

            NATO also supplies artillery of its own caliber, including mobile artillery with high-precision projectiles.

            The ability to withdraw soldiers for training on the territory of other states and train them there without fear of attacks on training camps.

            Salaries for all mercenaries from all over the world, including all sorts of Canadian Valli snipers ... and American Academy PMCs .. former soldiers of the French legion and just all kinds of scumbags?

            This is what you call "partial assistance"??? And what then, against the background of this, is the very Ukrainian army, you can find out?
            1. Hypertension
              Hypertension 18 October 2022 16: 16
              +1
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              To begin with, let's figure out where the bike about the 2nd army of the world came from. By what parameter is Russia 2nd?

              According to the set of parameters. Of course, there is a fair amount of conventionality in these ratings. But by the way, how do you determine that Russia is actually in 3rd-6th place? You write that your assessment is more objective. What is it based on?
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              With regard to "partial assistance to the United States."

              As long as the US has not delivered modern air defense armored vehicles and aircraft, US assistance has been partial. Well don't say what full? The full one was during Lend-Lease during WWII, and even then with significant reservations.
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              Or about ISIS, you will also say that they made their own weapons, and the United States is so ... partial help?

              Kind of partial. At the same time, the United States and the Kurds helped, who fought against this ISIS * (* organization banned in the Russian Federation).
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              Ukrainians would be big problems because of our electronic warfare systems ... ... Take at least Cruise missiles caliber - if Ukraine was an isolated country, this weapon alone could decide the outcome of the war

              If yes, if only. What's the use of the subjunctive mood? So many myths have been piled up about electronic warfare that there is already no trust in him. It is possible to argue that "it would be", but it is impossible to verify this.
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              The entire constellation of US satellites is working for Ukraine now.

              Oh-she! Just the same and all. And who will follow China and Iran?
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              This is what you call "partial assistance"???

              Yes. I call this "partial (albeit significant) help." And you, let me ask you, what do you call it? And how will you rename the aid when (if) modern NATO planes and tanks go?
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              And what then, against the background of this, is the very Ukrainian army, you can find out?

              Like what? Relatively modern army. Not the most modern in the world, of course, but the RF Armed Forces are capable of containing (and in some cases, pushing back).
              1. Alexander Vorontsov
                18 October 2022 19: 03
                -1
                Quote: Hyperion
                According to the set of parameters. Of course, there is a fair amount of conventionality in these ratings. But by the way, how do you determine that Russia is actually in 3rd-6th place? You write that your assessment is more objective. What is it based on?

                In addition to subjective parameters, there are measurable parameters - these are the budget and the number.


                In both cases it is 5th place. What allows you to apply for the 2nd, provided that the budget there is already under 300 billion, i.e. almost 5 (!!!) times more than ours, I don't know.

                And you, let me ask you, what do you call it?

                A hybrid war against NATO proxies in the context of open support by the entire NATO bloc, both logistically and economically / politically / informationally.

                But not a war against the 22nd army of the world.
                1. Hypertension
                  Hypertension 18 October 2022 20: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                  In addition to subjective parameters, there are measurable parameters - these are the budget and headcount.

                  Just 2 options? Do you think that this is enough for a "more objective assessment"? And what about the Global Fire Power website, where 50 parameters are taken into account? Including the budget with the number of personnel.
                  https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php
                  Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                  Hybrid war against NATO proxies in the face of open support by the entire NATO bloc

                  Support is open, but not complete, huh? So NATO is still China, in which case it will be necessary to somehow and somehow curb it.
                  Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                  But not a war against the 22nd army of the world.

                  Well, what place will you put the current Ukrainian army, given the support of NATO?
                  1. Alexander Vorontsov
                    18 October 2022 20: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    Just 2 options? Do you think that this is enough for a "more objective assessment"?

                    This is 2 more parameters than yours. Your 2nd army of the world was taken from nowhere - for the whole dialogue you yourself could not even substantiate this in any way, at least objectively, at least subjectively.

                    Support is open, but not complete, huh?

                    "Incomplete" is more than enough that this war would not be a war exclusively with "with the 22nd army of the world." I gave my arguments. You can continue to enter your criteria for "full" incomplete "half a bump for a quarter, etc.
                    1. Hypertension
                      Hypertension 18 October 2022 21: 58
                      -2
                      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                      This is 2 more parameters than yours. Your 2nd army of the world is taken from nowhere

                      You didn't see the link, did you? Duplicate just in case:
                      https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php
                      In terms of numbers and budget, you put the Russian Federation respectively below the DPRK and Great Britain in military power, and you don’t even understand how ridiculous it looks. Great Britain, despite a larger budget, neither numerically nor in the number of armored vehicles, artillery and aviation surpasses Russia.
                      The DPRK is superior in numbers, but everything related to technology is also inferior to the Russian Federation. China / India are serious players in terms of technology and numbers, but without combat experience.
                      In general - to judge the power of the army, based only on the size and budget - a profanity. Take in this case the total cost of all types of weapons (except for nuclear weapons), and then the comparison will turn out to be at least a little more relevant. And do not forget about the dollar PPP in the Russian Federation and in the world.
                      1. Alexander Vorontsov
                        19 October 2022 01: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Hyperion
                        You put the Russian Federation in terms of number and budget

                        I don't put it on. These are objective data.

                        In general - to judge the power of the army, based only on the size and budget - profanity

                        Do not ascribe to me the word "only" I just pointed out to you the OBJECTIVE, MEASURABLE criteria that any person can operate on. Unlike the rating, which expresses the strength of the army, what the hell is it.

                        And don't forget

                        Don't forget to ... find in which column here the United States took into account its injections into the "22nd Army of the World."
                        https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=ukraine&country2=russia

                        At the same time, show everyone, otherwise I could not find something.
                        Maybe because they don't exist...
                      2. Hypertension
                        Hypertension 19 October 2022 12: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        I don't put it on. These are objective data.

                        And you don’t take into account such objective data as the amount of equipment? For example, the UK has 227 tanks, while Russia has 12.
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        At the same time, show everyone, otherwise I could not find something.
                        Maybe because they don't exist...

                        There are no rankings. It is pre-war (pre-operational). That's why I asked you, as a kind of expert, what do you think the Armed Forces of Ukraine occupy now, taking into account this influence. But you didn't answer the question. And now I'm not interested in your opinion. You have shown your competence.
                      3. Alexander Vorontsov
                        19 October 2022 12: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: Hyperion
                        There are no rankings. It is pre-war (pre-operational). That's why I asked you, as a kind of expert, what do you think the Armed Forces of Ukraine occupy now, taking into account this influence.

                        The army rating is originally a delitant paraphonation from and to in the likeness of a beauty contest. Because the process is so multifactorial that it is simply impossible to take into account all of them in the rating. The competition itself reflects to a greater extent the individual preferences of the jury member.

                        Something else is noteworthy.
                        The United States has been waging a hybrid war against us not even since 2014, but much earlier.
                        The information war is part of the hybrid war.

                        And against this background, you take INFORMATION OF THE ENEMY.
                        The meaning of which boils down to the fact that THEY are weak, and we are strong.
                        And then on the basis of the same information you become dejected.

                        Our commanders adhered to the same logic. We are strong and they are weak.

                        You, before asking more complex questions, realize an elementary thing - initially we were misled about the fact that we are 2 and they are 22.
                        Option 2 or you really do not understand. Or you deliberately continue to spread the ENEMY'S INFORM AGENDA.

                        As for 12 tanks - yes, they counted. Despite the fact that a minimum of irrigation of them is in storage, there are no crews for them, an inventory and culling has not been carried out, and they are stupid in an incompetent state. They counted our only aircraft carrier and immediately gave 000rd place in the world in the corresponding column. Nakhimov was counted.

                        United Shipbuilding Corporation, estimated the restoration of the cruiser at 30 billion rubles, and taking into account the installation of new weapons - up to 50 billion rubles.

                        These are 150 of the most modern T-90M tanks.
                        Which is 50 more than it is now.
                        Another 150 are called "repair and modernization of Kuznetsov."
                        Great rating...
                      4. Hypertension
                        Hypertension 19 October 2022 13: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        And against this background, you take INFORMATION OF THE ENEMY.

                        But is it okay that in Russia, even without this enemy information, the image of a powerful army was cultivated, inferior only to the US army?
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        Option 2 or you really do not understand. Or you deliberately continue to spread the ENEMY'S INFORM AGENDA.

                        Tell the jingoists that the Russian army is not the 2nd. Surprise later who will end up being the ENEMY. They also solder the discrediting of the army.
                2. Drleavesee
                  Drleavesee 18 October 2022 20: 13
                  +1
                  The number is good, but it does not quite determine the strength of the army. It is clear that if we take conditional Estonia and Russia, then the number will decide even without superiority in weapons. Even if we take Poland and Russia, for example, the difference will not be the same
                3. Illanatol
                  Illanatol 22 October 2022 08: 40
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                  In both cases it is 5th place. What allows you to apply for the 2nd, provided that the budget there is already under 300 billion, i.e. almost 5 (!!!) times more than ours, I don't know.


                  1. Do you seriously believe that the military spending of the Russian Federation is less than 70 billion dollars?
                  Yeah ... and the USSR spent only 4 billion rubles on a 17 million army. laughing
                  Our system of financing the Armed Forces is complex and confusing (probably intentionally). Our real military spending is at least twice as high.

                  2. It would be nice to look at the structure of military spending. How much goes to salaries and pensions? How much - for the maintenance and service of military bases?
                  It is not surprising that the Yankees, with such a budget, sometimes do not have enough money to repair military equipment.

                  3. Do you seriously believe that military power is determined only by funding, in direct proportion?
                  Well, if everything was like that, then the army of Saudi Arabia in no time would have finished not only with the Houthis in Yemen, but could also arrange a blitzkrieg against Iran. But alas, ah...
                  There have been many examples in history when wars were won by powers with less GDP and less military spending. Macedonian Empire against Persia, Rome against Carthage...
                  As for the Chinese. They have a good army, but there is very little combat experience, and what they have cannot be called positive. The last military campaign - against Vietnam ended not very well, despite the clear quantitative superiority of the PRC army.
            2. Lepsik
              Lepsik 18 October 2022 18: 19
              -3
              --- According to the manufacturability of weapons?
              The Russian Federation has entire classes of weapons - which the United States does not have due to a hopeless technological lag. there are submarines of the 5th generation, the submarines themselves are 6 classes - the USA is only 2. Flurry-type torpedoes, Mig-31 interceptors, supersonic missiles, etc., etc. - you can list endlessly
        2. Negro
          Negro 18 October 2022 14: 07
          +2
          And what did the Americans put there from armored vehicles?
        3. MBRSS
          MBRSS 18 October 2022 15: 54
          +3
          Alexander VorontsovI have to admit, I thought so too. But worst of all, the President's office thought so too. And there they thought even dumber: that they would meet us with flowers and tricolor flags and (c) "the brothers will give you the sword."
          PS And we also thought it was a sinful thing that our leadership would respond appropriately to the supply of weapons to the Ukrainian Reich. For example, it will stop supplying raw materials to the West, stop supporting the ISS, exit the moratorium on nuclear weapons testing, and something else. I think it will come to that eventually. True, with a strong delay, as usual.
          1. alexey sidykin
            alexey sidykin 18 October 2022 19: 04
            -4
            And why doesn't it occur to you that they just wanted to spend 08 according to the Georgian scenario? Why is everyone fussing with these flowers... although the Georgian script 0808 lies on the surface... and after that they still say that they don't watch the PolitTok Show on TV... because all the flowers come from there.
            1. MBRSS
              MBRSS 18 October 2022 20: 39
              +2
              alexey sidykin The Georgian scenario did not provide for the annexation of regions of Georgia to Russia. Georgians were not considered one people with us either. This is not the case.
              1. alexey sidykin
                alexey sidykin 19 October 2022 15: 34
                -2
                Did anyone other than experts talk about joining in the spring? In addition, do not forget that Abkhazia and South Ossetia held referendums on independence and not on joining Russia. Until 08.08 they were formally Georgia.
      3. AdAstra
        AdAstra 18 October 2022 17: 34
        +1
        Which we are now heroically "cutting out"
    3. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 13: 32
      +7
      Speaking in a very simplified language of computer RTS players, it looks like rebuild-rivet-dunk.

      The key word here is "VERY". How would you like to "rivet" tank crews to replace the retired ones? Take "from the street", with a two-week preparation? After all, the storekeepers also lost their skills during the civilian life, and their number is not infinite.
      The life of equipment in a high-intensity conflict is about 2-3 weeks.

      The more modern the tank and the more prepared the crew, the longer the lifespan, and vice versa. Therefore, modern tanks and professional crews should go into battle first of all if people's lives are important to us.
      And the main striking force of the SV is tanks, and whoever has more of them is advancing.

      many believe that this war is driven by artillery, at least at this stage.
      1. Lepsik
        Lepsik 18 October 2022 18: 23
        -1
        --- Take "from the street", with a two-week preparation?
        You can immediately see that they were not a tanker. The operator-gunner can be trained in a few days.
        Unless, of course, this is a ram that crawled out of the cave. There is one switch - the choice of the type of projectile, and two buttons - a cannon and a machine gun. The rest is no more difficult than in the Soviet naval battle game. I speak as a former T72 commander
        1. MBRSS
          MBRSS 18 October 2022 20: 21
          0
          Lepsik, yes, he was not a tanker, although he served a term in a tank division, and even climbed into the 80s :)
          Well, do you need to prepare mechanic drivers? Commanders? Okay, you see...
        2. Foul skeptic
          Foul skeptic 19 October 2022 13: 48
          0
          You can immediately see that they were not a tanker. The operator-gunner can be trained in a few days.

          And I was a tanker. And I say that in a few days the operator-gunner, who will not be an empty place in the car, cannot be prepared.
    4. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 19 October 2022 13: 33
      -2
      Quote: Yrec
      There is such a concept unfamiliar to "experts" as the economy of war. To put it very simply in the language of computer RTS players, it looks like rebuild-rivet-dunk. You need to rivet and repair your equipment faster than the enemy has time to knock it out. Whoever wins this race wins. The production cycle of any modern military equipment, especially tanks, is tens of months. The life of equipment in a high-intensity conflict is about 2-3 weeks. Syria lost 1200 tanks in the first year of the civil war. The start of use in the SVO T-62 is a completely logical move. There are many of them, and the Ukrainians have fewer and fewer tanks. All anti-tank weapons are cumulative and the forehead of the T-72 with remote sensing does not greatly exceed the forehead of the T-62 with remote sensing in terms of resistance to godfather. And the main striking force of the SV is tanks, and whoever has more of them is advancing.

      You are behind the times. Now you rarely see more than a battalion in an offensive. Now there is a trend of mobile groups in pickup trucks that quickly seep into the rear. Xs, but we left all our tanks in the open spaces of Ukraine
  10. Toucan
    Toucan 18 October 2022 11: 20
    +10
    Today I saw how tanks taken from the storage base were loaded onto platforms. The sight is depressing.
    1. Jager
      Jager 18 October 2022 12: 02
      +13
      I ABSOLUTELY do not understand why our valuable military equipment is rotting in the open? Thousands of tanks could be built in the USSR, but building sheds over them is expensive ... And what is faster, easier and cheaper - to restore a car that was at least under a shed (ideally in a hangar) or stood up to the tower in the snow in winter, and in summer burned from the heat?
      Our unparalleled mismanagement in the world is depressing, not the old tanks.
      1. ycuce234-san
        ycuce234-san 18 October 2022 22: 54
        0
        Quote: Jager
        And what is faster, easier and cheaper - to restore a car that was at least under a canopy (ideally in a hangar) or stood up to the tower in the snow in winter, and burned out from the heat in summer?


        It is more profitable to build hangars only for aircraft. Armored vehicles are well stored in the open, compared to aircraft, which are even more expensive and difficult to produce. For armored vehicles, the requirements for its simple and long-term storage and quick reactivation in open areas must initially be laid down in the terms of reference for design and modernization - then it will receive additional stability when operating in the field.
    2. Lepsik
      Lepsik 18 October 2022 18: 24
      -2
      And what's so depressing? Judging by the photo, the tank is going somewhere
      1. Toucan
        Toucan 19 October 2022 08: 00
        +1
        Quote: Lepsik
        And what's so depressing? Judging by the photo, the tank is going somewhere

        Where he is going, there is no doubt. But this tank has the most decent appearance in the composition. The rest are very rusty.
    3. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 20: 32
      +1
      The sight is depressing.

      The tank in the photo is sad, with a downcast trunk :(
  11. ammunition
    ammunition 18 October 2022 11: 21
    +8
    the pace implies the delivery of about 22 machines per month.

    0.73 tanks per day. "Even a little - a teaspoon, that's good!", Winnie the Pooh.
    1. aars
      aars 18 October 2022 12: 19
      +3
      So this is _one_ plant, it is not rubber, it can no longer be!
      We need to restore production...
    2. Sergey Drozdov
      Sergey Drozdov 18 October 2022 12: 26
      +3
      During the years of the Great Patriotic War, 74 tanks were built in the USSR, which is 576 times more than the country possessed at the time the war began.
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 18 October 2022 14: 54
        +1
        that's right .. at the cost of killing the civilian economy .. is it really needed now? it’s not the Third Reich + the Armed Forces of almost the entire EU near Moscow that is against us, however .. and the tanks have become SLIGHTLY more complicated .. and the Russian Federation is not at all the USSR .. by any parameters, except for succession .. i.e. dad we have in common with Ukraine (USSR), but just a bigger house - he left his eldest son (RF) ...
      2. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 19 October 2022 13: 36
        0
        Quote: Sergey Drozdov
        During the years of the Great Patriotic War, 74 tanks were built in the USSR, which is 576 times more than the country possessed at the time the war began.

        You still modestly calculated this. Calculate better how much you lost.
  12. ZIF122
    ZIF122 18 October 2022 11: 22
    0
    Everyone is doing it right! As an infantry support, a very good idea!
    1. goblin xnumx
      goblin xnumx 18 October 2022 12: 27
      +9
      Are you sure that their use will be limited to this function? looking around, remembering where we live, remembering the words spoken from the highest stands, I would give 100 percent that they will not limit themselves to this and cut them into anti-tank and breakthrough and air defense functions, and perhaps they will try to replace the Navy and Air Force with them
      1. MBRSS
        MBRSS 18 October 2022 16: 14
        +1
        they will cut them into anti-tank and breakthrough and air defense functions, and perhaps they will try to replace the Navy and Air Force with them

        for subtle trolling - fat plus :)
  13. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 18 October 2022 11: 23
    +4
    Russia to receive 800 modernized T-62s – an act of desperation or a serious combat unit
    As always, which way to look... request With ours: technology can harm the enemy, and without significant manufacturing costs, then go ahead. From the side of the dill: full pants, 800 tanks, they don’t even have these and no one will give them. Do you think they would not be happy with them, at all corners they would yell about the victory.
    1. Negro
      Negro 18 October 2022 14: 39
      +4
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      From the dill side: full pants, 800 tanks, they don’t even have these and no one will give

      So far, the shortage of armored vehicles is not noticeable. Well, the possibilities of supplying tanks of the T-62 level (Leo1 and M60) are almost limitless.
  14. Havoc
    Havoc 18 October 2022 11: 25
    +9
    Additional armor is a weighting of the structure, can the chassis of the tank cope with this. In the USSR, the designers laid down a certain weight for this tank, and the suspension was designed specifically for this weight.
    The bad thing is that in the Russian Federation, for ten years now, the rearmament of the army has been going on, which should end in 2024, but not only did we not supply the required number of T-90s to the army, but we began to modernize the old tanks decommissioned in the eighties. Where is 70% of new technology, as stated by the Moscow Region. There is not even talk about the T-14.
    1. aars
      aars 18 October 2022 12: 01
      -1
      Suspension will withstand, with less resource
      Not important in war
      Mobility is more critical, but, as far as I understand, it is planned to replace the standard engine with a 780 hp engine from the T-72
      1. Havoc
        Havoc 18 October 2022 12: 21
        +4
        Quote: aars
        Suspension will withstand, with less resource
        Not important in war
        Mobility is more critical, but, as far as I understand, it is planned to replace the standard engine with a 780 hp engine from the T-72

        You try to load more than the norm into a passenger car and drive on a bad road, what will happen to your suspension and how long it will last. These tanks will simply register in rembats.
    2. Jager
      Jager 18 October 2022 12: 14
      +3
      This applies to the innovative aluminum chassis T-64. The task of the designers of that time was to create a car that was head and shoulders above all its competitors. At the same time, the size and weight of the T-62 should be maintained, as well as improved armor protection and a more powerful gun. The engineers had to look for solutions that would allow the saved chassis weight to be put on armor and a gun. It was precisely because of the achievement of the maximum weight of this machine on the undercarriage that subsequent major upgrades turned out to be impossible back in the mid-80s. However, the "solid iron" T-62/72/80/90 are deprived of this drawback.
      1. goose
        goose 19 October 2022 13: 34
        0
        Quote: Jager
        It was precisely because of the achievement of the maximum weight of this machine on the undercarriage that subsequent major upgrades turned out to be impossible back in the mid-80s.

        The problem was still in the diesel two-stroke monoblock engine, which could not be reproduced at other plants, due to the difference in machine equipment. And which in Siberia is very difficult to start in the winter without a shaman-conscript with a tambourine.
        1. Jager
          Jager 19 October 2022 15: 38
          0
          The "diesel locomotive" 6TD was just created for this concept - minimal volumes and weight with maximum power-to-weight ratio. That is why the engine had many "childhood diseases".
    3. Alexander_Schlidt
      Alexander_Schlidt 18 October 2022 12: 39
      +11
      Quote: Havoc
      Where is 70% of new technology, as stated by the Moscow Region.

      Protect hidden 1.5 million sets of uniforms.
  15. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 11: 27
    +5
    Quote: credo
    many military experts and armored enthusiasts in Russia have long proposed using old tanks in one way or another for the so-called mobilization reserve

    The situation with Ukrainians' equipment is rather characterized by the proverb "for lack of fish and cancer - fish." And if this is also true for us, it's more than sad
  16. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 11: 28
    +3
    Quote from Avesev
    The article is wrong. The very statement that there will be 800 names of 62 is erroneous. T-62 was given as an example, at the factory you can also see T-80 tanks

    All the news talks about the modernization of 800 T-62. It is clear that at the plant not only this order and not only these tanks under this order
  17. Glagol1
    Glagol1 18 October 2022 11: 30
    -1
    There is nothing wrong with upgrading these machines. The only question is the price. The author did not voice this important factor, I think few people know the true figure. If it is 20-30 million rubles. on a tank, this is acceptable, but 50-70 is no longer there. We need night sights, high-quality ones, dynamics, gratings, and another question about 115 mm shells. Do we have enough of them in storage? And how alive are they?
    1. Genry
      Genry 18 October 2022 12: 15
      0
      Quote: Glagol1
      We need night sights, high-quality ones, dynamics, gratings, and another question about 115 mm shells.

      About sights - it's a matter of choice. They are! And in Belarus and Russia.
      The rest is like dirt.
    2. goose
      goose 19 October 2022 13: 39
      0
      Quote: Glagol1
      and another question about 115 mm shells. Do we have enough of them in storage? And how alive are they?

      Anti-tank sub-caliber and cumulative shells live. His OFS is antediluvian, cheap, explosives over 40 years of storage could become sensitive to heat and shock. Perhaps the initial speed dipped due to the aging of the propellant charge by 10-15%.
      But for the current conditions, all this does not matter much.
  18. Ulan.1812
    Ulan.1812 18 October 2022 11: 33
    0
    The more weapons the better.
    Whether the author is right will be shown by the practice of using the T-62 on the battlefield.
    As they say, practice is the criterion of truth.
  19. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 11: 34
    -2
    "Russia has a disproportionately large number of tanks against the backdrop of a lack of modern infantry fighting vehicles"
    "many military experts and lovers of armored vehicles in Russia have long suggested using old tanks in one way or another for the so-called mobilization reserve"
    "the number of infantry will increase, which will be in dire need of fire support vehicles"

    In my opinion, the history of such modernization is the wrong prioritization. We really have a huge drawback in modern infantry fighting vehicles. Moreover, under "modern infantry fighting vehicles" I am more impressed with the definition of "adequately armored". I read here a proposal to convert old tanks into heavy infantry fighting vehicles by "turning" the engine part into the "nose" and replacing the turret with a new combat module. In my opinion, this is more relevant (to give adequate protection to infantry fighting vehicles) than creating something in between artillery and infantry fighting vehicles. At the indicated distances, for the effective operation of the T-62, it will still be necessary to use the UAV for adjustment. And in this case, it is already possible to use artillery support - the main thing is to ensure interaction.
    1. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 13: 53
      +3
      convert old tanks into heavy infantry fighting vehicles by "turning" the engine part into the "nose" and replacing the turret with a new combat module.

      non-science fiction. It’s easier and cheaper to release a new BMP, the same Armata T-15. At least an infantry squad will fit in there.
      1. Kurganets-45
        Kurganets-45 19 October 2022 13: 34
        +1
        who will produce these new infantry fighting vehicles? There is such a thing as production capacities, but they are already loaded with current orders, and new production lines do not appear at the click of a finger.
  20. Engineer
    Engineer 18 October 2022 11: 40
    +6
    I propose to carefully look at the distinctive features of the T-62 tank in the above photo. Personally, my attention was attracted by a lifting mast with an observation device.

    It remains to find such observation devices in the list of measures to modernize the T-62
    But in addition to this, she is able to work on enemy positions along a hinged trajectory - pay attention to the frames after the 50th second of the video.

    Alas, unlike Art. the guns of the tank shoots from the PDO, well, very badly. It is poorly adapted for this, and most importantly, the structure of the tank unit is not adapted for this.
  21. gromit
    gromit 18 October 2022 11: 43
    +10
    Let's not deceive anyone.
    The question is not worth T 62, T72, T90 or Armata.
    The question is T62 or nothing.
    And the old tank is much better than nothing ..
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Havoc
      Havoc 18 October 2022 13: 34
      +4
      Quote from Gromit
      Let's not deceive anyone.
      The question is not worth T 62, T72, T90 or Armata.
      The question is T62 or nothing.
      And the old tank is much better than nothing ..

      It is, of course, better, but a simple layman, including myself, really wants to know where the trillions of rubles allocated by the state for the rearmament of our army went. And it cannot happen that after checking the Moscow Region, we will remember Serdyukov as an honest and decent person.
      1. gromit
        gromit 18 October 2022 14: 46
        +2
        We are adults and we understand that it was not Shoigu personally who stole 23 trillion rubles)
        Everyone in his post took as much as he should according to his rank. Someone had enough for a palace and vineyards, someone for a yacht, someone for a penthouse in Dubai and Arabian horses, someone for an apartment on the Patriarch ....
        And so on descending to 5000 rubles received for fake processing.

        Well, in all honesty, didn't you know that they cheat and steal a lot from us?) They saw, roll back, spend it in hindsight, close their eyes?

        The system, therefore the system, is that it is impossible to be different in it. Personally, you may not participate, but for an overly principled position or the removal of rubbish from the hut, you will fly out nafig.
  22. Covid
    Covid 18 October 2022 11: 48
    -1
    With T62 tanks, it turns out something like a joke.
    1. goose
      goose 19 October 2022 13: 47
      0
      The author of the video, the troll - yes, he is also an ignoramus. Firstly, there was ONE T-62M, not 26 T-62s. Secondly, the 115-mm gun was only on the rare T-64s of the first issues, which you also need to look for. And the presence of T-62M units in the RF Armed Forces was an extremely rare occurrence.
  23. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 18 October 2022 11: 49
    +8
    The 103rd armored plant was instructed to supply the RF Armed Forces with 800 modernized tanks within 3 years

    If this is not a joke or a fake, then in fact this is a dispersion of resources on machines that are SIX DECADES YEARS old in absolutely horse figures, by the way.
    I don't see anything positive in this.
    As the experience of Syria shows, no matter how inhumane it may sound, it is often easier to replace a retired loader than to fix complex automation.

    A very similar view of things was taken by the Japanese in BB2 in their "banzai attacks". To say that this is adequate for a superpower with declining demographics is to be very narrow-minded.

    What can I say? No, I agree that the T-62 was GENERALLY a suitable solution for strengthening the extended front and supporting the LDNR (on the defensive) - but let's think, what for did we get to that then? And then it turns out that this was because the initial expansive pace of action was violated, effective means of solving problems were introduced gradually, it was the military solution of the issue that was constantly mixed with the political one. That is, if our Armed Forces acted the way the Armed Forces should act and if they had a well-thought-out plan for military (mostly) impact (including early mobilization or without it) - and we would not need to strengthen the T-62 front. It's stupid because this front would be located much more conveniently at least.

    "Resuscitation" of an array of antediluvian tanks, besides the fact that this is a dissipation of funds, is extremely doubtful for a modern military conflict with a superior enemy (after all, we are not going to still fight in Ukraine in 3 years, right?), and also incomprehensible from the point of view " troubleshooting". The work on the mistakes indicates to us that the Armed Forces should either act expansively or rely on the so-called "festungs" as the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass, from where they will be dug out or where they will be bypassed. A certain third position is no longer subject to the T-62 as a machine, due to its outright antiquity - mobile defense or a careful offensive is not what this machine is suitable for in the 21st century.
    Further, I want to note that 800 * 4 is 3 trained tankers who will actually be "suicide bombers" in this bank, which is absolutely not designed to use most modern weapons against it, to saturate the battlefield with which "to the maximum" everything goes. Not even Ukraine. And now let's imagine a hypothetical conflict with NATO - there will be no less.

    By diverting funds and focus of attention to these tanks in the FUTURE, we will get a bad decision, frankly unsuitable for modern warfare. We all saw how massively dropped out even in the conflict 30 years ago (Desert Storm) and more modern tanks - to hope that after these 30 years the losses of the T-62 would be less catastrophic is absurd.

    I summarize - a waste of flesh.
    1. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 14: 16
      +1
      it's a waste of resources
      -- exactly!!! And not only material, but also human (workers, engineers). It is necessary to modernize, but in peacetime, with feeling, with sense, with arrangement!
      It seems to me that the best solution would be to buy a couple of hundred Type-99s from China. We are going to build early warning antennas (!), so let them help with modern tanks. Otherwise, they don’t sell anything modern at all.
      1. Negro
        Negro 18 October 2022 14: 36
        +2
        Quote: MBRBS
        the best solution would be to buy a couple of hundred TYP-99s from China

        Do not sell.
        Quote: MBRBS
        Otherwise, do not sell anything modern to them at all.

        They will manage without you.
      2. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 18 October 2022 14: 47
        0
        IMHO, we need to strive for a 2-3 tank system, when there is an outgoing generation of tanks (T-72, for example), there is a current one (T-90) and an incoming one (for example, "Armata").
        In such a system, 2 types of tanks (2 and 3) are produced simultaneously in the country and 2 types of tanks (1 and 2) are modernized - and resources are gradually redirected from category 1 to category 2. By the time the (objective-actual) potential of the 1st category is exhausted, it is being curtailed for storage, being decommissioned, the place of the 1st category is occupied by the former 2nd (T-90), the place of the second - by the former third (conditionally "Armata"). By the time the T-72 is finally put into storage - the "conditional" Armata "is already a run-in product, with an understanding of the directions for further evolution based on the results of the operation of the T-90 and Armat" - and the process of experimental running-in of the next generation tank begins. Thus, simultaneously in there are 2-3 tanks in the army... In the event of a timely change of these generations, the chassis of the departed may be widely used for other military vehicles, and the stored vehicles themselves will not be just a useless accumulation of rusting metal.
        By the time the actual obsolescence of the T-90 begins, the pilot-small-scale production of the tank "behind Armata" is already beginning, by this time the T-72s at the bases have already been reworked with benefit for the most part - and by the time the last T-90 arrives in storage, there are no more T -72 or almost none.

        Something like this . As for the purchase of MBT from China, it is doubtful, Type99 is a deep modernization of the T-72. Modern conflicts show that it is necessary to design a tank for modern threats, optional unmanned mode (possibility), increased crew survivability, network centric and possibly maximum modularity.
    2. ada
      ada 18 October 2022 23: 34
      0
      I like to read you, you think interestingly, but here, let me give you some guidance on the timing.
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      ... (we are not going to still fight in Ukraine in 3 years, are we?)...
      You will not believe it, but we really have not yet begun to "fight", and no one has yet begun, with the exception of the culprit of disgrace. Previously, the readiness of all parties to escalate in Ukraine, with the development of the conflict to the level of a regional one and the subsequent escalation into a war on the continent, was assessed as probable at the turn of 2025 (under the full development of NATO military planning in the amount of "Defenders"), the most likely dates were assumed later , by the period of 2027 - 2030 (Polandia was pulled up and solutions for the Republic of Belarus were tried). In addition, no development of the situation in Ukraine with the involvement of the main forces of the NATO coalition without obtaining advantageous positions in the Republic of Belarus and the Baltic was planned due to the difficulties of implementing tasks in such a configuration. So, for now, you are witnessing a smoothing stage of preparing the parties for war with a set of military elements in the form of a database and others, during which part of the forces, means and infrastructure of NATO is destroyed at the geostrategic foothold of Nezalezhnaya, respectively, we suffer losses and gradually adapt to a different type of existence . It is believed that this may lead to some period of discharge, but I doubt it. If you want - you can call it a war, but take my word for it, this is not it yet - you will not miss the war. So, 3 - 5 - 8 years, and then it will begin, unless, of course, someone from NATA feels like a superhero ahead of time. wassat
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 18 October 2022 23: 41
        -2
        Oh, I understand all this very well - however, life and history are very good. amusing thing. Sometimes actions affect the consequences to a much greater extent (both ways) than in just some mechanistic-predictive model. If you'll allow me, I'll expand.
        Here is a good example - the Soviet-Finnish war. It was conceived, among other things, as an event that improves the country's security architecture - in the end, "de jure", yes, they improved it .. but "de facto" they pushed the Finns into the arms of the GG, gave them an excellent reason to become one of the parties (albeit a small one), lost a bunch of personnel officers and technology, and most importantly, they showed the Nazis that "we are not a cake." All our epic-armored-aircraft power somehow didn’t shine in the Soviet-Finnish one, so much so that the GG’s calculations about the degree of complexity of a potential operation against the USSR changed not for the better for us - the guys decided that we were a "colossus with feet of clay".
        1. ada
          ada 19 October 2022 00: 01
          0
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          ... but life and history Pts. amusing thing. ...
          It's like that. fellow
          1. Knell wardenheart
            Knell wardenheart 19 October 2022 00: 30
            0
            As for those unfortunate tanks ..
            In the "coming war" when and if it takes place on our territory, the T-62 has no place. Simply because the machine was designed without taking into account unmasking factors (important for weapons) - exhaust, radio visibility, etc., modern, the most important weapons (long-range "smart" artillery, MANPADS, UAVs, air-to-surface missiles with various guidance heads), without taking into account the capabilities and nature of the destruction of modern shells (which frankly sneeze on her armor). Neither in attack nor in defense will this tank "in a big war" work from the word in any way, because IF it is a conventional conflict, then on the other side of the ocean they will release "smart weapons" like sausages, for which this tank is a target on the pope . And even if he is hung with capes, KAZs and other bells and whistles, the money will be spent plentifully, and he will not survive the collision with the Abrams, and moreover, if found, he will be beaten from some kind of "roofbreaker" like a pretty one.
            Of course, all this is another "elephant against a dinosaur", I just want to say that as soon as the war is serious, you should not meet it again with Maxim machine guns, it is better to invest this money in Breakthroughs or UAV Art.

            As for "didn't start fighting" well, how can I tell you .. when we have the capital of the region recently admitted to the Russian Federation being evacuated (Kherson) and General Surovikin says in plain text "it will be hot" - to say that "there is no war yet" is somehow not sounds..
            Looking at all this, I understand that there was no war in Chechnya then, and there was no war in Afghanistan either. A large-scale conflict - a bunch of victims and destruction on both sides, a hefty front line, etc. - how do we call it? :) That's right - NWO.
            We say CBO - we mean <...>.
      2. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 19 October 2022 00: 13
        0
        Accidentally pressed send earlier .. I will continue the thought.
        Suppose that the USSR would have carried out the Soviet-Finnish war somewhat more impressive OR would not have started one at all, continuing to effectively throw dust in the eyes of the GG, and being a closed country, to some extent would have achieved this effect through exercise parades and gilded agitprop. Could this play a positive role in terms of the beginning of the Second World War? I mean adjustments to the logic of the decisions of the GG - through the prism of ideas about the power of the USSR, its relations with Western states, through the attitude of the Finns towards an alliance with the GG, and so on. It is possible that the logic of the constructions of even such a cannibal as Adolf Aloizovich would have changed somewhat from this, and he would have preferred to observe the Molotov-Ribbentrop, somewhat postponing his Eastern plans for the sake of hurting the WB, or even completely, temporarily focusing attention on North Africa. Further, we will assume that a certain sequence of actions postpones the attack of the GG on the USSR that summer (for the sake of finishing off the VB, for example, or for the sake of diplomatic "pressing" Turkey and Finland for a more advantageous attack configuration). In North Africa, meat is already on the way, and in December we have Pearl Harbor, which still makes the USA a party to BB2. The WB stands for itself remarkably, at least the island part, in North Africa it may be put on the shoulder blades (the focus of attention, that's all), the US Lend-Lease is pumping the WB with equipment and "strategists", and Adolf Aloizovich is simply forced pay more and more attention to the western or southeastern flank, finally putting aside their intolerance towards the USSR (to the great joy of the latter, because the successes of the German blitzes in Europe were frankly impressive and cooled all hotheads) for some time.
        This topic could be developed, but this does not make much sense - all of the above is a HYPOTHETICAL scenario in which BB2 could not touch the USSR indefinitely. God knows how it would have happened there, but the chain of certain actions could have had a more long-term impact on the consequences and decisions - and as a result, the cup of history would have tilted not to the right, but to the left - and hot chestnuts from the fire would have to be carried mostly not by us .

        So it is now - the observed dynamics directly indicate the growth of insurmountable contradictions in the world, the degradation of diplomacy and deliberative bodies such as the UN, the gradual formation of an opposing bloc, and so on. However, until the bubo bursts, there is an opportunity to manipulate what is happening within certain limits, to direct it. And with skillful actions, the focus of what is happening can shift to the APR, and our yellow-faced friends will carry hot chestnuts. And we will be such a huge Sweden in BB2, which is "like neutrality" and which sells what it wants and to whom it wants (almost). Fortunately, nuclear weapons would allow us to do this.
        Actually, what would we hypothetically need for this? First of all, stop shaking your nuclear weapons to the point of madness and let the West understand that within a purely conventional conflict, approximately the same hardcore awaits it - and specifically Europe. It's just worth climbing. Because a nuclear conflict, with all due respect, is something "incomprehensible to the mind", despite all these "fallouts". But the destruction of the URO of everything more or less valuable "to the English Channel" is understandable, this has already happened (albeit a long time ago). Actually, for this, our army would have to show the blitz in Ukraine in the best light for good. Or do not climb there until you could show a blitz. Because when the enemy (as in the Soviet-Finnish) sees a fierce dissonance and something vaguely incomprehensible, he begins to doubt other things, begins to think "is the devil as terrible as he paints himself?" . And it makes adjustments in planning. When we nightmare Ukraine 100500 times with "terrible punishments" for some bad steps and do not do it (until recently it was often like this), the enemy begins to think - will they also pull the strap with nuclear weapons? He will not see pressure, determination. And this can also make adjustments to his construction.

        Why am I doing all this? To the fact that something bad and global, yes, is coming. It would hardly have been possible to cancel all this without the "American Yeltsin". But it is possible to reorient the focus of attention. Of course, a further outline would still make us participants, most likely. But we could have avoided the fate of "the first figure under the rink" and entered on our own terms.
        1. ada
          ada 19 October 2022 12: 52
          +1
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          Why am I doing all this? ...

          Well, well, I read with interest, as always. We need to think about the questions. What can I say about some. Well, war and military operation are determined by military-political decisions, in fact there may not be strong differences, but a number of characteristic ones can be distinguished. So, in terms of functionality, volume and results of the database, they are not comparable in most cases, in particular, such concepts of outcome as "victory", "surrender" and various financial insinuations are not used in the terminology of operations, only in wars, costs, efforts and sacrifices not comparable and so on.
          I think you should not pay too much attention to the T-62 tanks and their use, this is not significant for the war, so, a reason for talking, the NATO Allied Forces on the European. TVD in the tables of BChS and VCh and indexes of samples of weapons and military equipment, their types and brands, just like before there was a significant number of old samples, and it was also planned to replenish losses from their reserve. I do not think that the situation has changed fundamentally and it is obvious that they are in no hurry to distribute their reserves of tanks. The military prefers to take into account experience, mathematical analysis and sober calculation. The higher VPR and its controlling shadow side - these, I believe, are capable of spontaneous decisions that are little consistent with the opinion of the military leadership. Let's "see".
  24. certero
    certero 18 October 2022 11: 50
    +3
    Any military man will tell you that if a tank is used, then they will be used as a tank. Therefore, all arguments about armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles are from the evil one.
    Why modernize the t-62, I don’t understand. in Russia that they really ran out of more modern tanks?
    Then we don't know anything about losses.
    We also do not know a single case of the use of tanks with an active protection complex. Although before the special operation, these very complexes were shown in many places and it was believed that we had a sufficient number of tanks equipped with them.
    The future of tanks is where every tank is actively protected.
    1. Vladimir80
      Vladimir80 18 October 2022 13: 42
      0
      Therefore, all arguments about armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles are from the evil one.

      of course, it takes more than a dozen years to create an infantry fighting vehicle with reliable armor with our mo, at least there will be tanks, at least t62
      Why modernize the t-62, I don’t understand. in Russia that they really ran out of more modern tanks?
      Then we don't know anything about losses.

      people are starting to see
  25. alexey_444
    alexey_444 18 October 2022 11: 54
    +1
    On YouTube, the guy told a long time ago that armats and other things are not needed for urban battles, no matter how corny expensive, repairs, spare parts, and not much more efficient, you need a minimum 100mm gun and armor, not like on an infantry fighting vehicle, I'm glad that he was heard. The authors about the lost tanks were sick of putting them in the tank and on the front, the crew is much more valuable than a piece of iron, no one wants to die, but that's the way it is
    1. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 14: 23
      +3
      On YouTube, the guy said a long time ago that armats and other things are not needed for near urban battles, ...

      this is exactly the guy that needs to be stuffed into the T-62 and into the city battle so that he doesn’t get smart.
      And I would prefer to sit in the T-15 and watch its maneuvers)))
      1. alexey_444
        alexey_444 18 October 2022 14: 51
        +2
        I would also prefer, but we live in the real world, it would be nice to have a bunch of high-precision weapons, we wouldn’t lose planes with fabs, but from the fact that there is a way out, unfortunately
  26. Postcode
    Postcode 18 October 2022 11: 56
    +4
    "... infantry support tank", and other tanks are not infantry support vehicles? Of course, I would like to know the opinion of a real expert on this matter, that is, one who graduated from a tank school, served in tank troops for a dozen, or even more years, maybe he shot at targets from a tank somewhere.
    Theoretically, taking into account what the Armed Forces of Ukraine are currently fighting on, a certain modernization of the T 62 is very temporary and will allow creating a certain saturation of the battle order, but as soon as the crew "hit" something modern from the enemy, and his trained crew, then the famous song comes to mind .... modern equipment (tank, infantry fighting vehicle, infantry fighting vehicle ...) is primarily distinguished by its automation, observation and aiming devices, that is, by the fact that it primarily affects the rate of fire (sometimes the first shot), hit accuracy and decision speed. It is not for nothing that at all training grounds since the USSR there were posters: Cadet, your first shot, and right on target. The main explanation of the teachers was that if the first did not work out, the second might not happen. They themselves taught their subordinates in the same way ....
    To what extent do the capabilities of tank repair plants allow, again, taking into account the characteristics of the products themselves, to carry out really real modernization, and not welding, sorry, "bed nets"? The design protruding from above with an attractively blue "headband", in general, is a myth ... which will be dispelled after a couple of 152 mm gaps nearby, or demolished by dense fire of a 30 mm BMP / BMD 2 cannon.
  27. Dartanian
    Dartanian 18 October 2022 12: 05
    +1
    According to the author, automation is worse than a loader :))))))) you can not read the article further, with such authors we miss the Motherland. m......
    1. aars
      aars 18 October 2022 12: 15
      -2
      Automation with a burning sleeve is worse than a loader with a metal one, this is certainly true - practice has shown more than once, not twice.
      But the author could not say this directly for obvious reasons.
      1. goose
        goose 19 October 2022 13: 18
        -1
        This needs to be proven. In the meantime, the evidence, both in terms of the rate of fire and the design of the tank, is on the AZ side. The disadvantage of our old Soviet tanks is that the ammo rack does not have sufficient protection and propellant charges are available for fire. This protection weighs only 80 kg according to the engineers from the factory and reduces the BC by almost half. But this is not an AZ problem, but a problem of an outdated concept according to which tanks were designed. Tell me about the bad AZ on Leclerc, and you will be laughed at.
  28. U-58
    U-58 18 October 2022 12: 07
    +3
    Why is everything so bad with automatic loaders?
    I ask people competent to clarify.
    Not special, so I keep wondering why not the T-64, which was "our everything", the father of the T-72 and the grandfather of the T-90?
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 18 October 2022 12: 21
      +1
      No, not bad. Reliable devices.
      The fact is that on the T-64 and T-80, the rate of fire in manual mode (emergency) is 1-2 rounds per minute. And on the T-72, spiteful critics say, it is practically impossible.
      Therefore, on both lines of tank development, for years, the maximum reliability of the MZ and AZ was ensured. and achieved success.
      1. goose
        goose 19 October 2022 13: 20
        +1
        During the exercises, the T-72 was more often loaded by hand, quite possibly. But 2 shots per minute cannot be mastered out of habit.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 19 October 2022 14: 35
          0
          By 72-ke took on trust the Old from the Internet. 64-ku manually charged himself. More precisely, uts from 64 matches.
  29. MBRSS
    MBRSS 18 October 2022 12: 08
    +1
    It's not even about the gun, but about booking and the absence of AZ (an extra tanker). Of course, it is necessary to modernize, but is it worth delivering to the front right now? Have all seventy deuces already been raked out of storage ???
  30. Genry
    Genry 18 October 2022 12: 25
    +4
    For modern anti-tank systems, without equipping KAZ tanks, there is no difference: T-62 or T-90.
    1. goose
      goose 19 October 2022 13: 22
      -1
      Quote: Genry
      For modern anti-tank systems, without equipping KAZ tanks, there is no difference: T-62 or T-90

      And how do modern KAZs fight missiles with an impact core that flies from above? I don't think so.
  31. Aleprok
    Aleprok 18 October 2022 12: 39
    +1
    in the absence of a heavy infantry fighting vehicle (and an armored personnel carrier) and the time of its development and production, this decision looks quite reasonable
  32. Suslik_2
    Suslik_2 18 October 2022 12: 39
    +5
    As local commentators who were banned by indignant patriots wrote earlier, it is obvious that a technical hunger for tanks began in the troops after the offensives of March-June 2022, when the unprotected KAZ T-90 and T-72 were knocked out by javelins. Where did the KAZ for the T-90 and the T-14 tanks go - obviously a rhetorical question, and in the Russian Federation everyone subconsciously knows this, although they will deny it. The T-62, like the T-90 and T-72, will not do any weather, especially in the offensive, because. the lifetime of the crew and tank without KAZ will be about 30 seconds until the javelin operator takes aim, cools the IR head and the missile reaches the tank. The Russian industry, as the last 30 years have shown, can produce about 7 T-90 tanks per month in one shift, presumably - 21 in three, in principle this does not give anything, however, the T-90M can at least be used locally in the offensive, unlike from the rest of the junk. Regarding the economy, the residual value of the T-62 today is $300.000 (no one will count people - because it is a consumable), the cost of a javelin missile is $100.000, which, as it were, hints at losses from using each tank for 30 seconds. The use of the T-62 in the Russian army is clearly an act of extreme need as a result of a catastrophic lack of modern technology, because. a tank designed in 1943, cannot compete with the technology of the late 20th, early 21st century in general, because it was created in a different era, with different technologies, and for use with other concepts of warfare.
    1. Negro
      Negro 18 October 2022 14: 33
      +6
      The T-62 is still not the 43rd year, you are confusing it with something. By the way, I would not underestimate the WWII tanks represented by the Centurion.

      Tanks of the 60s can really show themselves well. But this requires a complete reworking of communications, surveillance equipment, SLAs and reactive (against RPG) protection. Like the notorious Slovenian T-55s or Israeli/Turkish M60s. If all this goodness remains at the level of the 60s, then the tank goes into the "better than nothing" category.

      At the same time, on the fields of a special operation, the saturation of enemy formations with modern anti-tank weapons is extremely high. So the difference between the T-90 and T-54 is somewhat erased.
      1. Suslik_2
        Suslik_2 18 October 2022 15: 02
        +2
        I don’t confuse anything because the T-62 is a modernization of the T-55 tank, which is a modernization of the T-54 tank, which in turn is a modernization that was developed in 1943-1944, and has been produced since 1945.

        A complete redesign of the tank for a new concept is called a new development. Because every 25 years there is a change in the technological cycle of the Kuznets, as a result of which there is an introduction of the development of new fundamental and applied research into new technological developments, which is why new tanks are being developed, the design of which already has a place for new technologies and the ability to meet new realities .

        The T-62 is so outdated that it simply opted for a fully modernized potential. Those. to counter the new ATGMs, you need to install new armor, to interact with the new ACS of the "constellation" type, thermal imagers, night vision devices, satellite communications, KAZ - you need to install a lot of electronics for which there is simply no place, because at the time of designing this tank, no one can even imagine I couldn’t imagine that all this would be in the tank. It is necessary to change weapons, for modern barrels and calibers, for them a new tower. All this leads to the weighting of the tank, under which it is necessary to change the suspension, and with it the engine, to a modern one, so that the tank retains its mobility. Those. in fact, to upgrade the T-62 to the level of the T-90, you need to spend more resources and time than to release the T-90M from scratch, and even with an unpredictable result.

        The difference between the T-90, T-72, T-62 and T-90M is only that the T-90M allows the crew on the battlefield to survive for a long time under the influence of javelins and enemy equipment while completing the task and that's all - as they say, a trifle, but a decisive , especially on the offensive ...
        1. Negro
          Negro 18 October 2022 15: 57
          +6
          Quote: Suslik_2
          Those. in fact, to upgrade the T-62 to the level of the T-90, you need to spend more resources and time than to release the T-90M from scratch, and even with an unpredictable result.

          Under the modernized T-62, we mean the Israeli Tiran-6 modifications of the 80s (replacement of MTO, dynamic protection Blazer, replacement of the FCS and all optics, etc.). I would venture to suggest that such modernization is out of the question. Will reach the gates of the plant and thank God.
          Quote: Suslik_2
          as they say, a trifle, but decisive, especially in the offensive ...

          If we see attacks with tank lava T-62 in the style of Doctor of Military Sciences Rotmistrov, preferably on Abrams, then the picture of a special military operation will become even more harmonious.
          1. Suslik_2
            Suslik_2 18 October 2022 16: 33
            0
            Any equipment has a service life, and it physically and morally grows old. Therefore, there are several classes of reserve, as a result of which equipment moves from "good" storage to junk storage, depending on the value and expediency of use. At the moment, the T-62 is outdated tanks, a couple of generations newer than their T-72 and T-90, so they were already mainly intended as donors and for disposal ...
            1. Suslik_2
              Suslik_2 18 October 2022 16: 34
              0
              Sorry, the comment was not posted here...
    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      18 October 2022 15: 43
      -2
      Quote: Suslik_2
      As local commentators previously wrote who were banned by indignant patriots, it is obvious that a technical famine has set in in the troops

      Especially if you listen to Lyusenka Aristovich. Missile famine came back in March.
      Russia has lost a lot of equipment and that's a fact.
      But the scale of what Ukrainians call "hunger" is not what Lucien would like.

      because tank design 1943

      Yeah 1843...
      with the technique of the late 20th,

      Where is Russia before the Ukrainian anti-drone dome of the 21st century, codenamed "Point". Boomerang is missing.
      https://youtu.be/3iYNGLW6DZ8?t=21

      And they tried to train this army according to the best NATO standards ... billions of dollars went like water into the sand.
      1. Suslik_2
        Suslik_2 18 October 2022 15: 48
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Russia has lost a lot of equipment and that's a fact.

        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Missile famine came back in March.

        Weird? Missile famine came back in March. - didn't he come? Since purchased Iranian Shahed-136 is used, and not purely domestic Caliber? And usually old tanks are not removed from conservation when they don't "... lose a lot of equipment and that's a fact."
        Yeah 1843...

        More like 2043.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          18 October 2022 18: 22
          0
          Quote: Suslik_2
          Weird? Missile famine came back in March. - didn't he come?

          Do you like Aristovich or from the point of view of common sense?
          No, it didn't come. Many key facilities are not located in Ukraine, but on the territory of other countries - as I wrote here, the United States has worked out the tactics of dispersed logistics even on ISIS. Fuel and shells are supplied by NATO, they move around Ukraine in small batches under the cover of civilians. There is no ammunition factory. There is nothing to bomb.

          Remember Chaplino? A bit of military, a bit of civilian.
          They are warriors of light. It's the best thing to hide in kindergarten.

          Therefore, there are no mass targets for calibers. There are those who will require a political decision, such as permission to send the entire country to the stone age by blackout. Russia can do it at any moment. This is not a question of lack of missiles.

          If you bomb every echelon that transports 10 jeeps, then yes, we will throw away the missiles for nothing.
          Shahed in this regard is more suitable for the price of cost / damage. Than covering such targets with calibers.

          Quote: Suslik_2
          More like 2043.

          Rather, you need to think with your head before writing something)))
      2. Negro
        Negro 18 October 2022 17: 14
        +5
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Missile famine came back in March.

        Judging by what is happening now, something was not thought out with the missiles. Well, or Iranian military-technical assistance was also included in the NWO plan.
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Where is Russia before the Ukrainian anti-drone dome of the 21st century

        There is no anti-drone dome.
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        they tried to train this army according to the best NATO standards ... billions of dollars went like water into the sand.

        According to not the best NATO standards (the best standards are at least 2 years of study), Ukrainians have been studying for the last months. Approximately a couple of teams per month.

        Well, billions of dollars is not the most profitable topic for the RF Ministry of Defense, you should not have remembered them ...
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          18 October 2022 18: 33
          -1
          Quote: Negro
          According to not the best NATO standards (the best standards are at least 2 years of study), Ukrainians have been taught for the last months.

          Don't be naive and don't spread this.

          The United States has been actively teaching Ukrovermacht since 2015.
          https://www.rbc.ru/politics/24/07/2015/55b29b9b9a7947679ccc6be9

          At that time, I was monitoring the situation a little on Facebook posts - even in open sources of information there was so much that mom don’t worry, it felt like they were registered there and the new year was joint and year-round adjusted.

          As for the training program, they were well taught what they needed - mine blasting, sabotage work, artillery, reconnaissance, sniper work, defense in a building, etc.

          Moreover, at different levels of training, ranging from ala-national guard, ending with AZOV and MTR of Ukraine. And people received combat experience in the same way in the Donbass.

          So do not write that they started only in 2022.
          1. Negro
            Negro 18 October 2022 21: 11
            0
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            The United States has been actively teaching Ukrovermacht since 2015.
            https://www.rbc.ru/politics/24/07/2015/55b29b9b9a7947679ccc6be9


            )))
            I read something about Georgians in 2008.

            Yes, they did something, mainly with a variety of special forces and middle officers. APU were not completely useless. This can be called NATO standards, if by NATO we mean Albania. The first-class armies of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are very, very far away even now.
          2. ada
            ada 18 October 2022 22: 12
            0
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            ... The United States has been actively teaching Ukrovermacht since 2015 ... .

            Subtract a couple of decades, do not underestimate the importance of an earlier cycle, such as the training of officers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on internships in the United States since 1991 and in the course of other "experience exchange" programs and not only them.
        2. ada
          ada 18 October 2022 22: 24
          0
          Quote: Negro
          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          Missile famine came back in March.
          Judging by what is happening now, something was not thought out with the missiles. Well, or Iranian military-technical assistance was also included in the NWO plan ....

          I believe that it is not a matter of "hunger", and there is no way or method of implementing the rumors yet. You can provide the guys with some conditions for work, if they ask.
    3. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 16: 50
      0
      produce about 7 T-90 tanks in one shift, presumably 21 in three, in principle this does not give anything

      Well, how does it not work? It even gives.
      By the way, the capacities of the repair plant can be used with greater efficiency if car kits for assembling the T-90 are supplied there. True, it is not a fact that it is physically possible, just an assumption.
      1. ada
        ada 18 October 2022 22: 00
        0
        Quote: MBRBS
        ... By the way, the capacities of the repair plant can be used with greater efficiency if car kits for assembling the T-90 are supplied there. ...
        I can not help but ask - is this a joke of humor or is there any reason?
        1. MBRSS
          MBRSS 19 October 2022 09: 54
          0
          ada Mishustin announced the construction of three new tank repair plants in the European part of the country? What fundamentally prevents organizing the assembly of the T-90M on one?
          Of course, if Uralvagonzavod provides a complete set.
          1. ada
            ada 19 October 2022 11: 37
            0
            Duc, this is for the war, they also train personnel, here it’s just right to start with the repair and restoration of the main fleet of BTT models, they will have several years to reach their design capacity and gradually master modernization. . I hope that something else will be built in the depths of the territory before the war.
  33. Alexander_Schlidt
    Alexander_Schlidt 18 October 2022 12: 52
    -3
    In dozens of conflicts, the T-62 proved to be a good car, but with quality service and in capable hands. Last time we used them in South Ossetia. It's good that we are introducing reserves into battle. They also need to be used, they were created for this. It is bad that these stocks are the property of the Union. And there are no made in Russia and Russia yet. I hope they will. And in future conflicts (and they definitely will) T90 will already be taken out of conservation. To the aid of Armata.
  34. perun1988
    perun1988 18 October 2022 13: 00
    +5
    IMHO, it would be better if heavy infantry fighting vehicles were made of them, like the Akhzarites.
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 18 October 2022 18: 05
      +1
      Quote from: perun1988
      according to the type of Ahzarites
      They did it, the BTR-T was called, only the landing was not like that of the Israelis, through the aft manhole, when the engine was displaced, but like the BMP-3.

      Back in Soviet times, IT-62 was created on the basis of the T-1.

      The essence of the idea is to replace the "main caliber" with missiles. In essence, it is the tank gun that gives significant weight and absorbs the volume of the tank, replacing it with compact missiles can make it possible to increase protection while maintaining weight and dimensions.
      The author of the article recalled the 57 mm automatic cannon, which, as an auxiliary, could revive the idea of ​​​​a "rocket tank", in combination with new missiles.
      The base could be both the old T-54 / T-55, T-62, and outdated versions of the T-72.

      Otherwise, speaking about the use of the T-62 on the front, as "light tanks" or self-propelled guns, then this is better than nothing, if the question is put that way.
  35. Vasilyevich Pensioner
    Vasilyevich Pensioner 18 October 2022 13: 02
    +3
    Russia to receive 800 upgraded T-62s

    Is such a move rational, or is it an act of desperation?
    Another nonsense, sucked from the finger. It seems that the author is not in the know, or pretends not to be in the know. But there were talks about such plans for old models back in 2017. And if they undertook to modernize, then why not start using it.

    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation decided to prepare 6 thousand old tanks for the return from the arsenals at once


    https://voenhronika.ru/publ/rossijskaja_armija_udarnaya_sila/zachem_minoborony_vozvrashhaet_v_stroj_6000_starykh_tankov_otvet_napugaet_zapadnykh_partnerov_2021/49-1-0-10832
  36. Vasilyevich Pensioner
    Vasilyevich Pensioner 18 October 2022 13: 17
    0
    Quote: Nikolay310
    they write correctly, so you can set up the T-34 ... what's the point of this ...
    It will not be possible to set the T-34.
  37. spirit
    spirit 18 October 2022 13: 23
    +21
    the first of which is an increase in the reliability of vehicles (excluding the breakdown of the automatic loader).
    Guys are changing shoes) For so many years I have been reading comments on this resource about stupid Americans with their "NEGRO JOE", but when it got locked, then the conversations went different. Forgive us, "Negro Joe", we underestimated you laughing good
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      20 October 2022 13: 03
      -1
      Quote: spirit
      Forgive us "Negro Joe" we underestimated you



      Guys let's change)

      Why are we changing clothes? It's just that people have different points of view.
      Those who are in the subject understand that both solutions have their pros and cons.
      And people who believe that since an automatic means 100% better than a manual one, they haven’t gone anywhere and don’t plan to change their shoes.
      According to the author, automation is worse than the loader :))))) you can not read the article further
  38. Adagka
    Adagka 18 October 2022 13: 45
    +9
    it turns out that armadas of new tanks exist only in the reports of striped managers, in fact, everything has long been stolen and sawn into metal. but "Rafik is to blame."
    now "from a good life" they are engaged in the resuscitation of fossil T-62s (there is also a T-55 there - an unplowed field for the creative of defective under-managers)
    A kind of reverse evolution performed by Kremlin officials - from the atomic bomb back to the plow.
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 19 October 2022 18: 30
      0
      it turns out that armadas of new tanks exist only in the reports of stripe managers

      Listen, let's not be la-la. What other armadas of new tanks? "new" aka 72B3 and before the start of the SVO for the entire army of "peacetime" was not enough. And now they are going to deploy new divisions.
  39. Damir Shamaev
    Damir Shamaev 18 October 2022 13: 47
    -1
    It is necessary to put a remote control complex in them (surveillance camera, controls, communications, navigation), let the operator sit at a distance of 5 km and nightmare the enemy infantry)))))
    1. Vladimir80
      Vladimir80 18 October 2022 13: 57
      +1
      nothing will come of it without an automatic loading mechanism, for 1 shot ...
      1. ycuce234-san
        ycuce234-san 18 October 2022 22: 37
        -1
        Quote: Vladimir80
        nothing will come of it without an automatic loading mechanism, for 1 shot ...


        A long time ago there were multi-barreled guns. Here are their modern counterparts with remote guidance and electric fuse and will be the desired fairly cheap solution.
        Accordingly, instead of a turret, a robot tank has a block of several cannon or mortar barrels with pre-loaded shells or missiles, protected by anti-fragmentation armor. By refusing to load in battle, we remove this problem from the agenda.
  40. Alexey Balashov
    Alexey Balashov 18 October 2022 13: 56
    -6
    Again, couch experts came running !!! Oh, shame on upgrading old tanks!? And why was it not a shame for Germany to modernize its Leoperds1 because it was also a very successful tank, and for a minute the German economy was already at its peak! Did Israel modernize Pattons to fit its needs until they created the Merkava mastodon that no one needed? Now the whining will begin, but where is Armata? Is it okay that Armata costs as a conversion of 7 existing T-72s to T-72MV3? And how many T62s can be converted? And that one Armata will do more than 7 !!! T72?
    1. Vladimir80
      Vladimir80 18 October 2022 14: 14
      +10
      it’s not a shame to modernize old tanks, it’s a shame to organize parades and biathlons, but to be at the front in old holey trousers ...
      1. Alexey Balashov
        Alexey Balashov 3 November 2022 01: 49
        0
        When was it different? There is always someone on the spot who will sell everything and will report that he is doing well! Well, here's the most striking example from the movie 9 company with a crooked machine gun is the best fit!
    2. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 17: 25
      +9
      Alexey Balashov, if you think like that, then new equipment in the troops is not needed at all.
      By the way, instead of the palace grounds in Gelendzhik, it was possible to upgrade as many as 5000 T-72s (theoretically) or build 700 Armats. I made this up as a joke.
      1. Alexey Balashov
        Alexey Balashov 3 November 2022 01: 46
        0
        And if you believe Onal, then instead of victory, sew mittens on the zone!
  41. acetophenone
    acetophenone 18 October 2022 13: 56
    +2
    A good thing is 800 tanks, albeit old ones. Collect in a heap, yes kaaaak go! Ukpy, ess-but, they will scatter. The only question is, how far will they go? I have neither an ear nor a snout in armored affairs, but I know for sure that such equipment does not work for a long time without supply, maintenance and repair. Not a shovel.
    How many different types of tanks and other heavy armored vehicles do we have in the army? Does it make sense to expand this "zoo"? Will it not turn out that there are tanks on paper, but in practice - just iron boxes? No spare parts, no consumables, no ammunition.
    1. agond
      agond 18 October 2022 14: 45
      0
      The automatic loader takes up a lot of space inside the tank, and for 1-2 shots it is not needed, and in general its absence greatly simplifies operation, and you should probably think about removing the automatic
      from the early models of the T-72, especially since the modernization itself will be a relatively simple matter
  42. Wildcat
    Wildcat 18 October 2022 14: 36
    +4
    In the case of the Javelin, the task is simplified, although the cannon still shoots 2-3 times farther than the Javelin hits. However, in his case, it takes time to capture the target. The tactic in which the tank appears in position, fires 1-2 shots and retreats to cover, excludes its defeat by the Javelin.

    Hmm ... a rare, even for VO, level of ideas ... fool

    Russia has a disproportionate number of tanks against the background of a lack of modern infantry fighting vehicles.
    but to see how the tanks of the USSR in the BTR-BMP are being remade in one country near the Mediterranean Sea poorly? Which is better: "any kind of tank" or a good Akhzarit "a la rus"?

    And do not give out need for virtue: " ... to say briefly, there would be no happiness, but misfortune helped, and our military-industrial complex finally began to move in the right direction"

    All in all, a very bad article. negative
  43. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 14: 45
    0
    Quote: MBRBS
    convert old tanks into heavy infantry fighting vehicles by "turning" the engine part into the "nose" and replacing the turret with a new combat module.

    non-science fiction. It’s easier and cheaper to release a new BMP, the same Armata T-15. At least an infantry squad will fit in there.

    There was an article here. There are examples, including Ukrainians (BMP-55), and others (Akhzarit). And I don’t agree that it’s easier and cheaper to release TBMP on the armata platform. Firstly, this can only be done at the manufacturing plant, and not at the repair plant, as is the case with the conversion to TBMP T-55, T-62. Secondly, it will be clearly more expensive, at least for the cost of the power plant (you can use existing ones for conversion, and not a new one designed for armata), hulls.
    1. MBRSS
      MBRSS 18 October 2022 17: 52
      0
      ZuekRek, I agree, I got excited about Almaty. However, in the event of an alteration, only the chassis will remain of the tank, and even then it is necessary to alter it. The second-hand motor is also somehow not very good. Basically, who the hell knows...
  44. steelmaker
    steelmaker 18 October 2022 14: 51
    +4
    Putin has been in power for over 20 years. And I'm wondering, what will we modernize after Putin? Again Soviet galoshes?
  45. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 14: 52
    +5
    Quote: Alexey Balashov
    Again, couch experts came running !!! Oh, shame on upgrading old tanks!? And why was it not a shame for Germany to modernize its Leoperds1 because it was also a very successful tank, and for a minute the German economy was already at its peak! Did Israel modernize Pattons to fit its needs until they created the Merkava mastodon that no one needed? Now the whining will begin, but where is Armata? Is it okay that Armata costs as a conversion of 7 existing T-72s to T-72MV3? And how many T62s can be converted? And that one Armata will do more than 7 !!! T72?

    Here you understand what questions arise: 1. Why T-62 and not T-72? Or the T-72, which can be put into operation relatively quickly, is no longer there (which is strange, if you look at what numbers the "reserves" were estimated at)? 2. Is it really the highest priority to support motorized riflemen with such a caliber located nearby? Maybe the question is better to solve the problem of firepower by improving the interaction of motorized riflemen with reconnaissance (unmanned) aircraft and artillery (primarily the issue of communications and software and hardware automatic interaction), and for motorized infantry to quickly put into operation heavy, normally armored infantry fighting vehicles, which are right from since they started riding armor, are you needed? 3. Well, the figure of 800 and a period of 3 years is not some kind of "experimental" party, and not a panacea, as the conclusion is made here for a squad-platoon. Again, without developed reconnaissance equipment, such a caliber and firing range will not be of much use. And if there is aerial reconnaissance, it is better to specialize in the development of interaction with artillery.
    1. Alexey Balashov
      Alexey Balashov 3 November 2022 02: 02
      0
      According to your strategy, will you also be the only UAV to attack?
      1. ZuekRek
        ZuekRek 3 November 2022 10: 14
        0
        Did you carefully read my comment? It is not clear why time and resources are wasted on the T-62 at all, when we supposedly still have thousands of unmodernized T-72s, which are the main battle tank in our troops and which are more modern than the T-62 in principle. Tanks are needed, there is no doubt about that.
  46. Oleg Eliseev
    Oleg Eliseev 18 October 2022 15: 09
    0
    If my memory serves me right, then the main tank of the IED was the T-62. So what's the problem?
    1. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 19 October 2022 13: 28
      0
      Maybe because he never was?
  47. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 15: 22
    +1
    Quote from: perun1988
    IMHO, it would be better if heavy infantry fighting vehicles were made of them, like the Akhzarites.


    I don't understand all this fuss either. The most important thing now is to protect people as much as possible. The Israelis already, in my opinion, mk. 3 (third generation) Akhzarites. And as far as I know, they were just removed from the personnel units (replacement - Namer). BUT! They gave it to the reservists. Damn, well, there is an example of the real combat use of such TBMPs. Even the Ukrainians developed the BMP-55.
  48. ZuekRek
    ZuekRek 18 October 2022 15: 24
    -1
    Quote: Vladimir80
    it’s not a shame to modernize old tanks, it’s a shame to organize parades and biathlons, but to be at the front in old holey trousers ...

    The author of the article makes the assumption that it will not be a tank, but something like self-propelled guns at the forefront.
  49. certero
    certero 18 October 2022 15: 40
    +3
    Quote: alexey_444
    The authors about the lost tanks were sick of putting them in the tank and on the front, the crew is much more valuable than a piece of iron, no one wants to die, but that's the way it is

    In order not to die in a tank, you need to protect the tank with an active protection complex, hang it with active armor, and suppress the enemy with the help of drones and high-precision weapons.
    And do not upgrade the T-62 at all when the T-72T80 T-90 is available, to the level of security of which it is impossible to bring the T-62.
    Therefore, they ask the question, do we have no other tanks left?
  50. certero
    certero 18 October 2022 15: 44
    +4
    Quote: Suslik_2
    KAZ - must be installed

    I am also surprised why there is not a single tank with an active defense complex on the battlefield? Suggests that they simply do not exist in combat readiness?
    Modernization of old tanks figs with him this contract could come up with his own, but now he just goes to drink.
    But it leads to bad thoughts.
    instead of hanging modern tanks with active protection complexes, they are again trying to overwhelm the enemy with quantities to test armata on the battlefield. however, after 3 years, the SVO will continue once the contract is so long?