Great Scythia, Greece and Rome

59
Great Scythia, Greece and Rome

A number of researchers on the basis of numerous facts came to the conclusion that modern Russians (superethnos of the Rus, including Great Russians, Little Russians, Belarusians, Rusyns) are direct descendants of Indo-Europeans-Aryans of the Bronze Age, Scythians and Sarmatians. This topic is discussed in detail in the articles of the BO: Great Scythia and superethnos Rus. Part of 1. Great Scythia and superethnos Rus. Part of 2. In this connection, the relations of Great Scythia with Greece and Rome, the advanced civilizations of the then West, are of great interest. It is necessary to understand that the East-West confrontation did not arise in the XVIII-XX centuries and not even in the times of Ivan the Terrible or Alexander Nevsky, it has much more ancient roots. The information warfare of Greek (including late, Byzantine authors) and Roman authors against the "barbarians", the Scythians of the East, gradually turns into hatred of Russians, modern Russophobia. It is also necessary to note the ancient stories cultural expansion on the part of the West, attempts to dilute the basic values ​​of Northern civilization, “civilize” it using the “cultural cooperation” method. The main “work” was carried out with the military-political elite of Great Scythia. Almost all systemic crises that led to the Time of Troubles and the change of elite were associated with Western cultural influence on the nobility of Scythia.

The ties of Greece with Scythia were very close, diverse and almost related. It must be said that Scythia, in spite of its global, “Eurasian” geopolitical orientation, as well as later Russia, was always turned more to the west than to the east. The main contacts between civilizations passed through the Balkan Peninsula (its great importance was preserved during the Russian Empire). Given the great military might of Great Scythia, in general there were no major conflicts between Scythia and the Balkan states. The only exception is the attempts to invade Alexander and his commanders in the Scythian lands, but they were successfully repulsed. The “sea” civilization of the Aegean basin could not seriously threaten Great Continental Scythia.

At the same time, it must be said that cooperation, including cultural, was not one-sided, as it is often presented - directed from “civilized” Greece to the huge “barbarous” Scythia. In reality, the influence was bilateral. In the history of Greece, you can find many "Scythian" elements. Greek policies exported “democracy”, “market economy (built on the exploitation of slaves) economy, sophisticated (avant-garde) art forms, wine, olive oil, etc. And in return, Greece received religious and mythological tradition, statehood, bread, leather, skills horse breeding, iron production technology.

The foundations of the traditional “Greek civilization were laid in the Mycenaean period, in the Bronze Age. Although, according to researchers, Pelasgia, in which the Pelasgians, Lelegas and Carians lived, their later Greek historians considered "barbarians", played a big role in shaping this culture. How was Mycenaean Greece formed? Historians answer this question unequivocally: thanks to a series of migrations from the region of Southern Russia to the Balkans and Asia Minor. The beginning of these migrations dates back to the middle of 4 thousand BC. er Even in ancient times, among the peoples of the Northern Black Sea region were Akhai (Achaeans). Ancient authors noted the Achaeans between Taman and the Caucasus. The last migration along this route from the Northern Black Sea region to the Balkans occurred in the 12-11 centuries. BC e., after which there was an ancient Hellas. The steppe "barbarians" who came to the south of the Balkan Peninsula created the Dorian aristocracy of the feudal type, which also maintained its position in Greece of the classical era, although it was strongly pressed by the "democratic" reforms. The most famous example of the state created by the Dorians is Sparta. In Sparta, the “barbarous” traditions of a simple way of life, military valor and discipline of citizens remained the longest. The origin of the Dorians from the peoples who inhabited the steppes of Southern Russia during the late Bronze Age is indicated by the change in the character of burials in Greece at the turn of 2-1 in the thousand BC. er Instead of Mycenaean burials, barrows, traditional for the South Russian steppes, appeared in the tombs. Dorian burials coincide with the type that was common at that time in the southern Russian steppes.

The anthropological type of "ancient Greek", which is known to us from the famous bas-reliefs and statues of gods, representatives of the aristocracy, is far from the modern image of the Greeks and the "late Greeks." This type is quite familiar and common for northern tribes of Eurasia, peoples of Indo-European origin (especially Slavic, German-Scandinavian, Celtic groups) and does not at all correspond to the “Mediterranean” appearance characteristic of the modern peoples of the Balkans and the Mediterranean basin.

How were the Dorians established in Greece? It used to be thought that this was a “barbaric invasion” that destroyed the Mycenaean civilization (similar to the “invasion” of the Aryans in North India). But then it turned out that there was no single-stage invasion. The cities of Mycenaean Greece declined gradually, the process took more than a century - from the end of 13 to the end of 12 centuries. BC er Then, after a century break, a new cultural uplift began. As a result, some researchers came to the conclusion that the fall of Mycenaean Greece and the arrival of the Dorians were different events. The Dorians did not destroy anything (like the Aryans in India), the enemy came from the other side, apparently from the south. It is possible that the Spartan historical tradition sheds light on this situation. In Sparta, the Greek polis that maintained the continuity of the ancient aristocracy and the associated political and state culture the longest, it was reported that the “Dorian parish” that the local dynasty of kings (Heraklides), driven out by powerful enemies, asked the friendly Dorian people in the north of the Balkans and got it. With the help of the Dorians, Heraklides regained the throne. This legend says that the Dorians were not the enemies of the Achaeans. On the contrary, the weakened Mycenaean civilization attracted northern relatives to help. Thus, according to Homer, the army that besieged Troy consisted of Achaeans, headed by King Agamemnon and the “blond northerners” under Achilles (medieval sources say that he was a Scythian from Azov region). The conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles in this light is not a personal skirmish, but contradictions between the two layers of the military-political elite — the old and the new.

Homer does not mention the term "Dorians," calling the troops besieging Troy now Achaeans, now Danish. In the “Danaans” one can easily recognize the “new Greeks” who came with Achilles from the coast of Meotida (the name of the Sea of ​​Azov from the Greeks and Romans). Their name is derived from the toponym "don - dan - tana", common in the Black Sea and Azov region. In the language of Indo-Europeans, this word means "river", "bottom", "channel". This word has been used to designate the river Don - Tanais. It turns out that the Achilles' Danyans, who stormed Troy, are the same as the “Don”, people living along the Don River. The warriors who came from the steppes of southern Russia, helping the Greeks against their enemies, gradually seized control in their hands. Hence the conflict between the king of Miken and the leader of the “Danaians”. When the weakened Mycenae finally fell, the "barbarians" from the southern Russian steppes gradually restored the destroyed culture. In addition, it is necessary to take into account that it was the Dorians who brought the iron processing technology to Greece (the secret of Achilles’s “invulnerability”). The first iron swords were found precisely in the Dorian layers, from the 11 century BC. er .. Especially since the Greek alphabet, which does not have a direct continuity with the ancient Niken syllable letter, was apparently also brought from the north. As a result, in 11 century BC. er Alphabetical writing, iron processing technology, a new religion, and mythology (themes of Homeric epic) appear on the territory of Greece. All this brought with them the Dorians. Therefore, to talk about the "barbarization" of Greece in 11-9 centuries. BC er say no. Dorians restored civilization and raised it to a new level.

In fact, the “Greek” civilization received from Great Scythia a charge of energy (together with the settlers), which gave Greece a new life. Further maritime colonization, the “swimming of the Argonauts”, the flowering of old and new policies, the rise of the economy, the rise of art, all these are consequences of the “Dorian invasion”. Cultural forms that Scythia received from ancient Greece can be called a “boomerang”, returning to its owner.

It is clear that the Greco-Scythian relations were far from ideal. Many Greeks were annoyed by the aristocracy of Dorian origin and its tradition. In turn, the Scythians were unhappy with the crooks of Greek merchants, their predatory, pirate disposition. The Greeks corrupted the Scythian aristocracy by the method of "cultural cooperation", their free morals. Known history of the Scythian king 5. BC e Skila in the city of Olbia, whose mother Hellenca taught Greek language and literacy. Then a brisk Greek legion was placed in his bed, who dedicated him to the Greek-Asia Minor mystical cults. As a result, Skil in his house “lived in the Hellenic way around and made sacrifices to the gods according to the Hellenic custom,” thus betraying the Scythian traditions. In addition, he began lobbying in the Scythian kingdom the interests of his mother’s homeland, Istria. Rod Skil had to resort to heavy measures: the king was deprived of power and executed as a traitor.

If in the early Iron Age Great Scythia had a significant impact on the development of Greek civilization, then in the period of late antiquity the situation changed. The classical culture of Hellas had a serious impact on Scythia, and later on Sarmatia. This is indicated by archaeological excavations in the cities of the Black Sea basin. Archaeologists discover amazing examples of architecture, sculpture, painting, jewelry, which were made by local craftsmen, but greatly influenced by the Greek tradition. It is this influence that made it possible to attribute the creation of cities on the shores of the Black and Azov Seas to the “Greeks”.

An inevitable continuation of cultural expansion was the military pressure on Scythia. Since the end of 2 century BC. er “Landings” landed one after another on the southern coast of the Crimean peninsula. The wars with the Scythians began the famous ruler of the Pontic state Mithridates Eupator (134 - 63 BC), who united under his rule the vast territories of the Hellenistic Eastern Mediterranean. Initially, the Western Scythians had a serious resistance to the expansion of Mithridates. The troops of the commander Diophantus defeated the forces of the Roksolans, who were allies of the Scythian king Palak and eliminated the ancient dynasty of the Bosporian kingdom. However, a popular uprising of the Crimean Scythians, Sinds, and Meotians began immediately, headed by Savmak. The uprising was crushed, and for several decades Mithridates gained control of the Kingdom of Bosporus and Chersonese. At that time, the Black Sea Scythians were forced to maneuver in front of two strong opponents - Pont and Rome, so the Scythian Sarmatians supported Mithridates on the principle "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Part of the Black Sea cities were ceded to Ponto, and the Sarmatians supported Mithridates in the fight against a more dangerous enemy, Rome. The course of events of the Mithridates' wars with Rome, which lasted for several decades, is quite well known.

Mithridates was a very energetic and capable ruler who organized a very serious resistance to Rome. His power gathered around him the Hellenistic states of Asia Minor, and the Scythian-Sarmatian detachments were the striking force of his army. In addition, the Northern Pontic became for Ponta the main base of food supply. In fact, Great Scythia supported the Hellenistic world against Rome.

In the midst of the Pontic Wars (89-63 BC), the famous uprising of Spartacus (73 - 71 BC) occurred, which shook Rome to its very foundation. The actions of the Sparta forces were in the hands of the Pontic kingdom, Greece, and allied Scythia. Some researchers even believe that the Spartacus uprising was inspired by Pontus. It was too well organized and took on such a large scale. Obviously, it is difficult to attribute the uprising to the "intensification of the class struggle" - this is the largest uprising in the history of Rome. Rome at that time was overcrowded with slaves-prisoners of war from the “eastern front,” and they were sent to gladiator schools. It can be assumed that among the slaves were the commanders of the Scythian troops who served Mithridates. This explains the situation when the spontaneous revolt of slaves, which usually resulted in anarchy, gained such a dangerous character for Rome. Spartak and his commanders turned the hub of slaves and prisoners into a well-organized army.

Almost nothing is known about the origin of Spartacus. Sources call him "Thracian". In antiquity, the territory of Thrace (present-day Bulgaria) was closely connected with the Northern Black Sea region, Scythia. It was in the north of the Balkan Peninsula that the most intense hostilities were fought. The Romans called their opponents "Thracians", although it is known that it was there that the Sarmatian army, allied to Mithridates Eupator, acted. In addition, the geographic name "Thrace" was vague in late antiquity. Bulgaria was often called “Minor Thrace”, and Scythia - “Great Thrace”, emphasizing the kinship of the tribes inhabiting these lands. Therefore, a Sarmatian warrior could be a prisoner of war "Thracian", and not a native of the Balkans. The name of the leader of the gladiators also indicates the origin. Similar names are of Scythian origin - Savmak, Spartak, Arsak, Taksak, etc. The name "Spartak" was borne by some of the kings of Bosporus and Meotidas, there was even a dynasty of Spartacids. It is believed that Spartacus was from this dynasty (nowhere else is this name known).

This explains the success of the uprising, when the gladiator managed to gather an army in 120 thousand people and so successfully lead it that Rome was close to death. Spartak could be captured during one of the many military campaigns in Thrace. From sources it is known that according to the original plan, Spartak wanted, and probably could, just leave the Apennine peninsula and move to the east side, that is, in fact, break through to its own, beyond the front line on the Danube. However, the locals who did not want to leave Italy intervened. Spartak was forced to adjust his plans and stayed to join the final battle with the enemy. In addition, his army began to disintegrate on a national basis - the Gauls and the Germans broke off, their troops were destroyed separately. In addition, Roman sources say about the leader of the rebels with respect. If we recall the attitude of the Romans to the slaves, "two-legged guns", this indicates a high origin of Spartacus.

In fact, it was the uprising of Spartacus that stopped the expansion of Rome in the territory of Great Scythia (Sarmatia). The Roman elite made sure that the state could not “digest” such a piece of it. Rome's eastern policy has changed. Rome went to direct agreements with the Bosporus and the Scythians, bypassing Mithridates. The Scythians, seeing that the Roman patriciate was ready to stabilize the situation on its eastern borders, stopped supporting the Pontic kingdom. As a result, Pont, having lost the most powerful "Scythian military contingent", became the prey of Rome. The kingdom of Bosporus regained its independence.

Subsequently, on the border of Scythia-Sarmatia and Rome, there was a “cold neutrality” situation, which was at times interrupted by active hostilities. So, during the civil war in Rome 69 g. N. er Sarmatians crossed the Danube and invaded Moesia, large areas were devastated. In the end, the confrontation between Great Scythia (Sarmatia) and Rome, a free community with a people's aristocratic system and a slave-owning system, ended with the fall of the Eternal City. At the end of 4 - the beginning of 5 centuries. n er under the onslaught of the Alans-Sarmatians and Vendians-Vandals, the Roman Empire collapsed. The ring has closed ... And a new confrontation began - already the Christian Vatican with the pagan North and East.
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  1. +8
    5 October 2012 09: 00
    Finally, a continuation of articles on Scythia appeared. The question of the ancient history of the Slavic tribes is very important for us today, to understand how we were disconnected, clashed then, and what is happening now.
  2. +12
    5 October 2012 09: 22
    One of the first to suggest that the Russians are the descendants of the Scythians and that the Russian territory was not deserted and wild, but was developed back in the ancient period - M.V. Lomonosov. Subsequently, for this he was criticized by "true" historians and linguists, from Miller and Karamzin to our days. And Lomonosov, most likely, expressed his point of view not from scratch. But later the Scythians were amicably attributed to the Iranian language group and the question of the continuity of the Scythian-Sarmatians and Slavs was closed tightly. And it was politically unprofitable to write that civilization also existed in our territories, since all the lands to the east beyond the Danube a priori had to be considered wild and barbaric, because the ray of "Roman-Greek enlightenment" did not penetrate there.
  3. +3
    5 October 2012 09: 41
    I read interesting vishchi about the war of Macedon with the Scythians ... a very interesting topic ...
    1. 0
      5 October 2012 10: 50
      viruskvartirus,
      Do you mean Veles book? This topic is very interesting, but thoroughly misinformed, as well as the true goals of the campaign of Alexander the Great to India.
      1. +1
        5 October 2012 12: 17
        No, this is http://www.proza.ru/2010/06/01/530
        1. +1
          5 October 2012 17: 06
          viruskvartirus,
          Vyacheslav thanks! An interesting resource, I read carefully.
      2. mongoose
        +3
        5 October 2012 12: 42
        "Ross" would you please bring the original of this book, if I may say so? or a list, say 500 years ago? can not? naturally, it is as rare as 140 year old ukry
  4. mongoose
    -3
    5 October 2012 11: 03
    ha-ha-ha-ha, like the Russians are Ossetians? not tired of frank nonsense to read? I'm sick of am
    1. +8
      5 October 2012 11: 57
      mongoose
      And where is the evidence that the Scythians are an Iranian language family if the Scythian writing has not reached us? And accordingly, in this case, how can one refute the assumption that the Scythians were not Proto-Slavs? And why would the Scythians, who had lived on the plains for centuries, suddenly lock themselves in the remote Darial Gorge and stay there (if you are writing about Ossetians)?
      1. mongoose
        -1
        5 October 2012 12: 36
        to the school, dear Prometheus, you are apparently young, and I was still in the Soviet school, if you throw away ideological mud from it, then it was the best school in the world
        1. +4
          5 October 2012 13: 29
          mongoose
          Well, what does the school have to do with it? The school does not study half of the historical material. And I honestly feel sorry for schoolchildren who study in modern history textbooks. If you wanted to insult me ​​with my age, which you don’t know, it won’t work, but I consider myself still young and not a wise old man, despite the fact that I graduated from school 20 years ago.
          1. mongoose
            0
            5 October 2012 13: 33
            the school teaches how to learn and process data arrays, using the modern language, it also provides the basis for the methodology of cognition, I also like to read fantasy, but I prefer not pseudo-historical, but classical, with elves and gnomes laughing
            1. +5
              5 October 2012 13: 58
              mongoose
              Honestly, I would like to see at least one student processing data arrays and generally understanding what the cognition methodology is. The school always presented the finished material in the form of an axiom, but I am silent about the story altogether - no doubts about what was written in the textbook were allowed and are not allowed to this day.
              1. mongoose
                -1
                5 October 2012 14: 23
                there are established facts, according to chronicles, archaeological excavations, you can only change the content, thanks to the prevailing ideology, you replace the facts themselves with silly fantasies, and about school, you just were not lucky, as I
        2. +2
          5 October 2012 16: 42
          mongoose,
          The school is not the original, but the subjective opinion of the Ministry of Education and the teacher.
          By the way, I finished school at the end of the 60's.
    2. +5
      5 October 2012 12: 32
      The Russians and the Ossetians have different haplogroups among the Slavs R1a Most of all, this haplogroup is widespread among the Slavs, Scandinavians, North Indians (descendants of the Vedic Aryans) and Central Asian peoples (Iranian-speaking Bactrians and Sogdians were the substrate) of the Ossetians R1b. And once again I’m laying out this card, I advise you to pay very close attention to it http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png?uselan
      g = ru
      1. gor
        gor
        -1
        5 October 2012 21: 10
        it would be better if you gave the Scythians to the gallogroup)))))))))))))))))) and there is nothing to compare with)))))))))))))))))))))) )
        1. +1
          5 October 2012 23: 39
          Well, I met the data on genetic research of the royal Scythians, guess with 3 times the result)) ...
    3. gor
      gor
      -3
      5 October 2012 21: 07
      the main thing is that the languages ​​are very similar))))))))))))))))) and the comment is a little lower. Scythians are not the Iranian language family but Persian bishops.
      in fact, it’s all gon. it’s proved that all modern European languages ​​came from the region I don’t remember what is called in the territory of modern Turkey. But the name is Greek. And this progenitor of languages ​​appeared long before Alexander the Great. The Romans once also owned the floor of the world and now live in a relatively small area
  5. +2
    5 October 2012 11: 16
    In the “Danians” one can easily recognize the “new Greeks” who came with Achilles from the coast of Meotida (the name of the Sea of ​​Azov among the Greeks and Romans). Their name is derived from the toponym "don - dana - tana", common in the Black Sea and the Sea of ​​Azov. In the language of the Indo-Europeans, this word means "river", "bottom", "channel". From ancient times this word designated the Don - Tanais River. It turns out that the "Danians" of Achilles stormed Troy - this is the same as the "Don", people living on the Don River.

    The author probably did not read Homer (almost an eyewitness to those events), the Danes were the ancient Greek tribes who inhabited Argolis (Peloponnese) by the name of their king Danai. With the help of such research, in harmony with the words, it is possible to write the Etruscans into the Russian people, and the city of Pisa, in Italy, in general, turns out to be an indecent place. Jews generally compare Danians with one of the tribes of Israel (Dan). In general, history is an exact science, and not an interpretation of the harmony of words with modern language, history is studied from the source, in this case, the manuscripts of Euripides and Homer can give some idea of ​​what was happening then.
    1. mongoose
      +1
      5 October 2012 11: 36
      yes no! THAT WAS PREPARED! laughing
    2. Kshatriy
      +1
      5 October 2012 12: 54
      Quote: Rebus
      The author probably did not read Homer (almost an eyewitness to those events)

      "Was there a boy" ??? About the existence of Homer, modern linguists do not have a common point of view .... Achilles (according to the poetic epic) was the prince of Myrmidonyan (Myrmiki-Anty-Tavroskifs) .... The only people at that time (Bronze Age - "And the copper-shining Hector came out!") - having in his military arsenal - STEEL (given to him by Svarog!) ... At TRIZNE according to Patroclus, Achilles established a prize - an ingot of metal hardened in the waters of Styx .... (referring to the primary sources ... one should not hope that everyone else has not read them just like you !!!)

      Quote: Rebus
      in this case, the manuscripts of Euripides and Homer can give some idea of ​​what was happening then.

      Homer's manuscripts ......., read ????? .... You, dear, should submit a submission for the "Shnobel" Prize .., and you will have it, because besides you, there is no one in this world of "Homer's manuscripts" read....
      Quote: Rebus
      You can write the Etruscans in the Russian people,

      "Etruscano non legatur" ..... this is not relevant since the 19th century .... All translations exist ... I advise contemporaries to bother reading Professor Chudinov ... popular and accessible .......
      1. +2
        5 October 2012 13: 23
        Quote: Kshatriya
        On the existence of Homer, modern linguists do not have a common point of view .... Achilles (according to the poetic epic) was Prince Mirmidonyan (Mirmiki-Anty-Tavroskifa) ....

        Mirmidonians
        (myrmidons, myrmidons) - a tribe that lived in Phthiotis, in Thessaly, in the possessions of Peleus and Achilles. According to the myth, Eak lost all his people during the pestilence sent by the Hero, but at the request of Eak his father Zeus turned ants into people, and this people became known as “myrmidones” (“miramex” in Greek means an ant).
        And the Ants (tavroskifs) lived in the steppes of the Sea of ​​Azov and were nomads. Look at the physical map and tell me how the nomads could get from the Sea of ​​Azov to Asia Minor or Greece? Just do not say that on boats (boats, gulls, gullahs) not a single nomadic people ever built ships, they did not need it, Antam (Scythians) always had enough of the steppe, which begins in Mongolia and ends with the Carpathians.
        1. Kshatriy
          0
          5 October 2012 14: 14
          Quote: Rebus
          (myrmidons, myrmidons) - a tribe that lived in Fthiotides, in Thessaly, in the possessions of Peleus and Achilles

          Yeah ... so all the same, the Myrmidonians, not Danians?

          Quote: Rebus
          “Miramex” in Greek means ant).
          --- Anty Yescho one name for an ant .... in the Hellenic language .... which is very different from the Caucasian-Caucasian-lego-Greek !!!! ..... (do not kick with me using clippings from the context .... unrealistically difficult have to.....)
    3. +1
      5 October 2012 16: 48
      Rebus,
      Amazing nearby. And well, you tell me about the Russian inscription on the tomb of Tsar Aeneas in Italy, found in the 19 century?
    4. Horde
      +3
      5 October 2012 17: 20
      The author probably did not read Homer (almost an eyewitness to those events),


      The dating of the Trojan War by TI is controversial, but most researchers attribute it to the XIII-XII centuries. BC uh

      The chronological period in which modern science localizes the life of Homer according to TI is approximately the VIII century BC. e.

      the difference between the events of 400-500 years is not to hell himself OWNER! laughing
  6. +4
    5 October 2012 12: 11
    Here you need to understand a few points.
    Present Greece and Rome have no relation to ancient Greece and Rome.
    The West (Europe) has always been a poor, a backward region, an exporter of raw materials, they got rich with the beginning of the colonial policy by sucking resources from the colonies, they maintain their prosperity and there are no prerequisites to consider "ancient Rome or" ancient Greece "more developed than the Arab or Slavic world ...
    The manuscript, which first appeared in the 19th century, cannot be considered "ancient", there are no scientific prerequisites for this, Homer's works date back to the 18th or 19th century.
    We used to think that buildings stand for millennia, but in fact they are not, there is a wonderful doc film "A World Without People" about this. Any buildings are destroyed very quickly and if you are told about a thousand-year-old castle, then you are being deceived. Maybe on the territory of Russia there were stone structures in ancient times, but we cannot guess an ancient structure in a pile of stones buried in the ground.
    1. +1
      5 October 2012 12: 38
      Quote: Setrac
      The manuscript, which first appeared in the 19th century, cannot be considered "ancient", there are no scientific prerequisites for this, Homer's works date back to the 18th or 19th century.
      We used to think that buildings stand for millennia, but in fact they are not, there is a wonderful doc film "A World Without People" about this. Any buildings are destroyed very quickly and if you are told about a thousand-year-old castle, then you are being deceived. Maybe on the territory of Russia there were stone structures in ancient times, but we cannot guess an ancient structure in a pile of stones buried in the ground.

      If your statements are correct, then:
      1. The Bible was written in the Middle Ages, because it is not possible to prove its antiquity (Qumran scrolls could fake the Bedouins to benefit).
      2. The Egyptian pyramids were built by Napoleon (to attract tourists). According to your statement, you should forget about the ancient mention, because the ancient sources appeared in the 18-19 centuries, and the buildings have not been preserved for more than a thousand years.
      3. Knossos Palace is generally a hoax.
      4. Heinrich Schliemann turns out a sucker, who was led on a fake ...
      Did I understand you correctly?
      1. mongoose
        0
        5 October 2012 14: 24
        rebus! um, gallopreader?
    2. mongoose
      0
      5 October 2012 12: 41
      setrak, you are wrong and wrong at the same time, you are evidence of green, bring wet.
      There are a huge number of documents of the Ancient World, and there is not one written in Slavic to Cyrillic. Trade routes are described quite fully, and you should not compare Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt. Babylon with the Arab world, only the Romans encountered the Arabs.
      and don’t bring about castles, originally Russian was built of wood, like all people who lived in the forests. the degree of civilization is not determined by the presence or absence of stone architecture, nomads did not build houses at all
      1. +6
        5 October 2012 14: 10
        Quote: mongoose
        there are a huge number of documents of the ancient world

        I would like to look at least at least one of them in the original, but there isn’t one - only copies in repeated copying.
        1. mongoose
          -3
          5 October 2012 14: 25
          are you sure about that? exactly for sure? send you to the british museum? or in the museums of egypt?
      2. Horde
        +3
        5 October 2012 17: 38
        there are a huge number of documents of the ancient world,


        Are you talking about written sources on parchment or papyrus? Want to say that these media have lived for thousands of years? It cannot and cannot be that the skin or reeds of which the papyrus is made could not fade or crumble over millennia.
        1. +2
          5 October 2012 22: 38
          Horde
          That's right, the life of documents is a maximum of 300 years. Because in atmospheric conditions there is no such material that would serve 1000 years. even in modern archives documents of 150 years ago cannot always be obtained - poor condition - the material deteriorates, collapses. Copies required. In the Middle Ages, when there were no electronic media, one can imagine how much the original was copied and edited voluntarily or involuntarily (letters were abraded, and then words on the originals). And here we are thrown the preserved papyrus 2000 years ago and Sumerian clay tablets almost in its original form. Miracles are straight.
  7. Kshatriy
    +1
    5 October 2012 13: 04
    "The anthropological type of the" ancient Greek ", which we know from the famous bas-reliefs and statues of gods, representatives of the aristocracy, the distant modern image of the Greeks and the" late Greeks "." .................. ............
    ............... Read the prominent anthropologist of the 20th century --- Academician Porshnev .......... please ........
    1. mongoose
      0
      5 October 2012 13: 35
      and modern Greek is a wild mixture of Greeks, Asia Minors, Slavs and Turks!
      and during the Turkish occupation, they spoke a language related to the Slavs, until, like Ukroinsky, they were taught the Greek language
  8. +7
    5 October 2012 13: 29
    Maybe my view of history is the view of an amateur, but having a technical education, I see when I get in on it.
    First, about documents - the earliest documents of the 9-10th century AD, everything else, or copies, or fakes, found in our time or recently, created for propaganda purposes. The Qumran manuscripts are an example of such fakes, until the 20th century no one knew about them, there is no written evidence that they should be in other sources, a typical fake. The Bible - here you are right, it is impossible to prove, which means there is nothing to send the Bible to antiquity, somewhere in the early Middle Ages - the age of the Bible.
    Why the Egyptian pyramids were built, one can only guess (for example, in order to rewrite history - the information war), again, chronicle Egypt has nothing to do with the current one.
    Heinrich Schliemann did not "fall for a fake", he created this fake himself, he was seen in fakes before, why was he believed in this case? Maybe because they themselves sent him to "find" these "antiquities"?
    1. mongoose
      +1
      5 October 2012 13: 38
      engineer say? well, and an engineer, leave history to historians, language to philologists, and "fake" to specialists, you see a modern "engineer" who can't draw a nut in projection by hand, an intellectual is one word
      1. Kshatriy
        +2
        5 October 2012 14: 18
        Quote: mongoose
        modern "engineer" who cannot draw a nut in projection by hand, intellectual is one word

        Can you do it yourself ???? What is the name for projection in three-dimensional space in mechanical engineering ????
        1. mongoose
          +1
          5 October 2012 14: 25
          but figurines to you, not an exam, but by the way will you draw a nut?
          1. Kshatriy
            +2
            5 October 2012 14: 37
            Quote: mongoose
            but figurines to you, not an exam, but by the way will you draw a nut?

            Ayuu ... if I’m not familiar with you ... (you have two classes of education - read "murzilka and drink in two holes" ......)
        2. +1
          5 October 2012 15: 15
          what is called projection in three-dimensional space in mechanical engineering ????

          isometry smile
    2. +2
      5 October 2012 13: 47
      Quote: Setrac
      Why the Egyptian pyramids were built, one can only guess (for example, in order to rewrite history - the information war),

      Why so overwork yourself even now it is problematic to build a pyramid, both physically and financially. For information warfare and rewriting history, it is enough on a rock, or some stone, to scratch something and with a smart look to prove all garbage IMHO.
      1. Kshatriy
        +2
        5 October 2012 14: 21
        Quote: Rebus
        cannot draw by hand

        Drawing without the use of drawing tools (done by hand) as it is called ???????
        1. 0
          5 October 2012 16: 20
          Quote: Kshatriya

          Quote: Rebus
          cannot draw by hand

          Where did I write this?
  9. +3
    5 October 2012 13: 29
    These disputes ... about history ...
    clockwork little thing.
    Ancient manuscripts !!!! Ancient chroniclers - Homer and Strabo !!!
    The great archaeologist is Schliemann !!!
    Ohhhhhhhhh
    ...
    And take and type in a search engine - falsification of history.
    We find this ....
    1. mongoose
      -2
      5 October 2012 13: 39
      oooh, good sites, counterfeiters come out laughing
      1. Kshatriy
        +5
        5 October 2012 14: 26
        Quote: mongoose
        oooh, good sites, counterfeiters come out

        Adak you in the delirious chronology of Scaliger-Petavius ​​stay ... Wake up 21 century in the yard .... with a new 7521 In the summer of you .... dear .....
        1. 0
          5 October 2012 17: 15
          Kshatriy,

          It is useless to argue with those who have decided everything for themselves in advance.
        2. 0
          5 October 2012 21: 49
          And this is only the date of creation of the world in the heavenly temple, and before that, many thousands of years precede it. Well, at least Arkaim was not allowed to flood. At least something is left.
  10. +5
    5 October 2012 13: 41
    A little about "scientific dating methods"
    Radiocarbon analysis seems to be much more scientific, but there is a basic error in it (a systemic one, so to speak). The percentage of carbon isotope in the Earth’s atmosphere is not a constant, this parameter depends on many factors, and is a variable. Under the influence of cosmic radiation, a carbon isotope is formed in the upper atmosphere, that is, the amount of the carbon isotope (I draw attention to the fact that the quantity, not the percentage) depends on the intensity of cosmic radiation and with a denser atmosphere the percentage of the isotope will be less and, accordingly, the results will be numbered.
    For example, during the time of the dinosaurs, the atmosphere was 8 times denser, correspondingly an eight-fold error in determining age is obtained.
    Other methods also have their own nuances that make them unsuitable.
  11. +4
    5 October 2012 14: 05
    Dear mongoose, don’t need to call me an intellectual, you don’t know anything about me, maybe I'm interested in drawing and I draw people? And I will draw this nut with shadows and penumbra and with a screwed handle! I earn my piece of bread in the most unintelligent way on the railway.
    I would leave Caesar Caesarean if this and my children weren’t crammed into this lie. All who believe in Western propaganda are our enemies (approximately like the Nazis in 42), whether they consciously do it or not, does not justify them.
    1. +5
      5 October 2012 14: 20
      Setrac
      For such as Mongoose it is easier to go into insults, and consider others to be "shkolota" and after all he studied according to Soviet textbooks (as if none of those present here studied them). And the fact that in Soviet encyclopedias sometimes just nonsense occurs - is that also not worth questioning? - it's an encyclopedia!
      1. mongoose
        -5
        5 October 2012 14: 29
        insult you? what for? How can one offend those whom our wise ancestors called "Ivan who do not remember kinship"?
        1. Kshatriy
          -1
          5 October 2012 15: 11
          Quote: mongoose
          "Ivans not remembering kinship"?

          I have my ancestors since 1510, which is confirmed by the Coat of Arms and Shlyakhta ... I have the honor ... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (We have all the pedigree in the "estate book of the Russian Empire - is written ".... yes, not all of my ancestors were cut out by your ancestors from 1918 to 1924 ???? .... And in vain (the genocide of the Russ will not be forgiven and we will not forget !!!!!)
        2. +2
          5 October 2012 17: 37
          Quote: mongoose
          How can one offend those whom our wise ancestors called "Ivan who do not remember kinship"?

          That is, in your opinion, the desire to search for truth is a spit on your story? That is, if I doubt the historical presentation according to Karamzin, then I become Ivan Kinship unremarkable? Interesting logic.
          After all, indeed, it is easier to go with the flow and nod your head like a Chinese blank, and agree with everything that is written in the textbooks. We must undoubtedly trust the overseas Schliemann, who allegedly dug up Troy, but about any version of ancient Arkaim, for example, excavated by archaeologist Zdanovich in the Urals, at best meet with smiles?
    2. mongoose
      0
      5 October 2012 14: 27
      um, but do not you find that living in a fantasy world, you insult the memory of your ancestors? their faith? Their victories and defeats? Deprecate your present ????
      1. Kshatriy
        +1
        5 October 2012 15: 16
        Quote: mongoose
        um, but do not you find that living in a fantasy world,

        We are not Great Russians, just live in the real world. Wait and get ready ...
      2. Kshatriy
        +1
        5 October 2012 16: 22
        Quote: mongoose
        their faith? Their victories and defeats?

        God of my ancestors ROD - give the facts of the defeat of my ancestors under the banners of ROD ?????????????????????? Our present has to be in the Glory of our Ancestors !!!! As Prince Svyatoslav Ingvarovich said: "The dead have no shame !!!!!!!!"
  12. Kshatriy
    +1
    5 October 2012 14: 33
    Extremists from the "Old Testament" began to stir .... when your ancestors 5011 years ago descended from a monkey .. my Ancestors had THREE letters from their Gods ... for we have ORTHODOX in the courtyard of the 7521st Summer .....
    1. mongoose
      0
      5 October 2012 14: 47
      gee-gee-gee-gee-gee !!!! Buy the Old Testament and read! you will not carry nonsense !!!!!!! laughing
      You’ll come up with your own nonsense, you’ll dispute another nonsense !!!
      1. Kshatriy
        +1
        5 October 2012 15: 05
        Quote: mongoose
        gee-gee-gee-gee-gee !!!! Buy the Old Testament and read! you will not carry nonsense !!!!!!!

        Read your "Torah" or ask your rabbi to interpret it .... maybe then you will stop ...
        Quote: mongoose
        nonsense, you yourself dispute the other nonsense !!!

        Something like that ...., yes ????
  13. Geton
    +2
    5 October 2012 15: 09
    This explains the success of the uprising, when the gladiator managed to gather an army of 120 thousand people and so successfully lead it that Rome was close to death. Spartacus could be captured during one of the many military campaigns in Thrace. From sources it is known that according to the original plan, Spartak wanted, and apparently, could, just leave the Apennine Peninsula and move east, that is, actually break through to his own, behind the front line on the Danube. fool Such a tin of gray piranha is a straight Brusilov breakthrough! Especially "delivers" the size of the army of 120 thousand. lol . At the beginning of the 20th century, all of Greece could mobilize an army of about 83 - 85 thousand. man, and this is in wartime!
  14. +3
    5 October 2012 15: 12
    It is interesting, if in the west the ruler of the ... village in three houses and a pigsty is already a king, then the Slavs ruler of vast lands is a local king.
    1. Geton
      +4
      5 October 2012 15: 24
      On the site of Mukhin there was a conversation about the strength of Napoleon’s army, so the numbers are close to reality: 200 - 250 thousand people. Napoleon was far from as Papa Herodotus wrote - Tsar Xerxes with his millionth army.
  15. 0
    5 October 2012 16: 49
    The following chain is known: Scythians-Sarmatians-Alans (Roxalans) -Ossetians. This is confirmed by many facts, toponyms, linguistic identities, excavations and other scientific facts.
    1. Geton
      0
      7 October 2012 08: 21
      When I hear the words "historical science", I recall Goebbels' statement about culture.
  16. Geton
    0
    5 October 2012 16: 55
    The foundations of the traditional "Greek civilization were laid in the Mycenaean period, in the Bronze Age. Found an interesting article, written by a certain Kadychansky: http://chipstone.livejournal.com/848360.html. Through the looking glass "
    Previous Entry | Next entry

    The Bronze Age is a fake of “academic” history.

    Sep. Thursday, 13th, 2012 at 4:47 PM

    The original is taken from kadykchanskiy in the Bronze Age - a fake "academic" history.
    “One should not shamelessly lie, but evasion is sometimes necessary.”

    (Margaret Thatcher)

    I can imagine what a howl will rise now. There are so many accusations of ignorance, of supporting the "anti-scientific new chronology of Fomenko", etc. But let's take another look at what the official history teaches us and at concrete irrefutable facts. So today my sacrifice is the Bronze Age.

    Since school years, we used to trust textbooks and those who write them. Without hesitation, we accept as an axiom that Tin is one of the first metals developed by man. Its use in alloys with copper determined a whole era in the development of mankind, called the "Bronze Age" from the second half of the 3th millennium to the 2th-17th centuries. BC e. It has been documented that art molding was developed many thousands of years ago. In Egypt, sculptures found in bronze dating from the XNUMXrd millennium BC were found, in China by the XNUMXnd millennium BC. Also, art casting was widely used in ancient Greece and in ancient Rome. The peak of bronze casting occurred in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries in Western Europe, when any more or less wealthy person wanted to perpetuate himself in statues and epic compositions. It's like that. Even the seventh grader is a two-grader in the course that bronze consists of at least copper and tin. And here we find surprising ... If it is such an “ancient” alloy that the ancient Egyptians processed granitoids and even superhard diorite thousands of years ago, then tin was widely known all over the world. And here the first snake of lies easily creeps out. According to the acknowledgment of the same “historians,” the only known deposit of ore containing tin - where ??? Answer: - “The Romans called it Cassiterides and mined it from the Cornwall field in England. For reference:




    Cassiterite (from κασσίτερος - tin) is a mineral of SnO2 composition. Outdated synonyms: tin stone, vein tin, river tin, alluvial tin, woody tin. The main ore mineral for tin. Theoretically, cassiterite contains 78,62% Sn. It forms separate, often well-formed crystals, grains, veins and continuous massive aggregates in which the grains of the mineral reach 3-4 mm or more. Chemical stability of Sn, non-toxicity of its salts and alloys led to its widespread use in the form of tinplate in the canning industry (32% of the production). In addition, tin is used to produce bronzes, brass, babbits (22%), solders (29%), printing fonts and the chemical industry (15%), in the manufacture of dyes, in the glass and textile industries.
    1. Geton
      +3
      5 October 2012 16: 56
      And now the question for “historians”: How did cassiterite get from the British Isles to “ancient Egypt, Sumer, and China?” What, bulk carriers were transported all over the world, and they filled up all of Russia, that all the pagans Scythians - Pelasgians fought with bronze swords?

      Well, strain your brains, comrades! Did the Romans arm all their enemies around the world? Well is not it nonsense? And what do they tell us about the history of bronze in Russia?
      In Russia, art molding has been developed since the 11th century, when the ebb of bells became art. In the 16th and 17th centuries, wonderful foundry craftsmen (Chokhov, Dubinin, Motorin ...) appeared in Russia who specialized not only in bells, but also in the ebb of cannons.
      Motor in the early 18th century. How do you like? And why not Airplanes or Mobile phones?
      Move on. Maybe besides Anlia, after all, is there somewhere in the territory of Russia a deposit of tin ore? Read my favorite Mountain Encyclopedia:


      [Map of deposits here]

      "Almost 95% of all Russian reserves are located in the Verkhoyansk-Chukotka, Sikhote-Alin and Mongol-Okhotsk provinces. The main drawback of the mineral resource base in Russia is the large remoteness of tin mining enterprises from processing centers."
      Well, how do you like it? It will become clear even to a child that until the 20th century in Russia there simply could not be bronze! But what about swords, household items, and bronze jewelry? What about the bells? What were veche bells made of in Pskov and Novgorod? Let's look at the most famous:
      1. Geton
        +2
        5 October 2012 16: 57
        Bell Tsar Bell. XIX century. Photo Scherer, Nabgolz & Co.
        In 1730, Empress Anna Ioannovna instructed to cast it. The height of the bell with ears is 6,24 m, diameter - 6,6 m, weight about 200 tons !!!! According to the analysis conducted in the mine hull laboratory, the alloy contains copper - 84,51%, tin - 13,21%, sulfur - 1,25%, gold - 0,036% (72 kg), silver - 0,25% (525 kg). They then ... were like that !?


        Lifting characteristics of the Liebherr LTM 1200 truck crane

        And here we reveal another portion of lies: According to legend, the bell split in a fire when it was poured with water so that it would not melt. Well, do not tell me my slippers gentlemen historians! The melting point of bronze is about 1140 ° C. Can you run with buckets and tubs in such hell? And the burning temperature of wood can in no way be higher than 1090 ° C. Why lie? Anyway, why spend on some crap, as much as 26240kg. priceless tin !?

        What conclusions can we draw? I think you will no longer deny that the production of bronze could not be established around the world before the 19-20th century, if you believe the very "historians" who could not agree with geologists. So that they poured tin ore on every kilometer. This means that either all ancient bronze and the entire Bronze Age is a fiction. Either bronze was known, but then its distribution could occur only for one reason - there were no borders, states, principalities, but there was a single powerful centralized country, with an excellent transport system and high-tech enterprises. Where did the tales of medieval barbarism, ignorance, obscurantism come from? I am more and more inclined to believe that we are the descendants of savage conquerors who built their civilization on the ruins of a defeated or destroyed civilization. We just don’t know what to do with the artifacts we inherited from the disappeared. It's like giving a cannibal in the wilds of the Amazon a microwave. He will be proud of her, but he can only use it as a storage for scalps.
        1. Geton
          0
          5 October 2012 17: 18
          In pursuit of Bushkov: However, as they said a hundred times, they trained on this problem
          their exuberant imagination is a lot of people. Another years
          two hundred ago the director of the Danish National Museum Christian
          Thomsen invented "stone", "bronze" and "iron
          "Century. It was he who had to lead the preparation for
          serious exhibition of the art of primitive man and he
          in order to love order, I gathered objects on one stand
          from stone, from the second from bronze, from the third, respectively
          iron. I liked the idea and somehow imperceptibly
          turned into a firm belief that in the history of mankind
          indeed there were such "centuries." Though
          items made of bronze and iron are very often related
          to the same historical periods. A stone
          axes, as archaeologists irrefutably established, fought
          not only in time immemorial, but also in the battle of
          308
          Chapter Five WHAT SHOULD NOT BE
          Hastings, which took place in 1066 after Christmas
          Of Christ. Almost yesterday by the standards of the Great History.
          1. Brother Sarych
            +4
            5 October 2012 17: 28
            A mere trifle - in ancient times bronze was most often without tin ...
            1. Geton
              +1
              5 October 2012 17: 33
              Oh ..... these "unique secrets" of the ancient masters!
              1. Horde
                0
                5 October 2012 18: 32
                Oh ..... these "unique secrets" of the ancient masters!


                Geton, good evening! Very good about tin and bronze!

                Watching the films "History, Truth or Fiction" FIN, drew attention to the fact how all these ancient Romans with smoothly shaved muzzles of which so many on surviving sculptures miraculously could shave, after all, according to TI, the Iron Age comes 2-1 thousand. AD? If anyone thinks you can make shaving brushed blades, then why aren't they being used now?
                1. Kshatriy
                  +1
                  5 October 2012 19: 00
                  Quote: Horde
                  If anyone thinks it’s possible to make shaving fit for Brno, then why aren’t they used now?

                  ...... Break any (preferably expensive) pressure gauge, take out the baric flask, cut the plate out of "beryllium bronze", sharpen it and shave .... Current why is this necessary?
                  1. Horde
                    +1
                    5 October 2012 19: 43
                    Break any (preferably expensive) pressure gauge, take out the baric flask, cut the plate out of "beryllium bronze" - sharpen and shave .... Current why is this necessary?


                    so simple? let me not believe the question remains open, why now do not use bronze shaving blades?
                    1. Kshatriy
                      0
                      5 October 2012 19: 53
                      Quote: Horde
                      so simple? let me not believe the question remains open, why now do not use bronze shaving blades?

                      Yes, because stainless steel is cheaper and more technologically advanced than bronze .... (I said that you can shave with bronze ... but you don’t need ..)))
                2. Geton
                  0
                  6 October 2012 09: 01
                  Horde hello! There is a series of films by Kungurov on historical topics - I advise you to look at interesting questions.
            2. Kshatriy
              +1
              5 October 2012 18: 55
              Quote: Brother Sarich
              A mere trifle - in ancient times bronze was most often without tin ...

              Science is such a "metal science" is called ... an alloy of copper with aluminum, for example, also - bronze ..., or an alloy of copper with silver - again - bronze ... Why dispute, then ???
              1. Horde
                0
                5 October 2012 19: 52
                Science is such a "metal science" is called ... an alloy of copper with aluminum, for example, also - bronze ..., or an alloy of copper with silver - again - bronze ... Why dispute, then ???


                and the point of the conversation is this, all alloys of copper with arsenic, with the rest of the elements will never give those properties that have copper with tin. Bronze-copper with arsenic will be FRAGILE and weapons and tools, and armor from it will not work. With silver is expensive they added to the bells, but aluminum was obtained in the 19th century in limited quantities.
        2. 0
          6 October 2012 12: 54
          The melting point of bronze is about 1140 ° C. Can you run with buckets and tubs in such hell? And the burning temperature of wood can in no way be higher than 1090 ° C. Why lie?


          And ask yourself - what kind of fuel did the metal melt at that time? Isn't it already a tree? And why did a tree giving only 1090 C melt a metal with a melting point of 1140C? ;)
          1. Geton
            0
            7 October 2012 03: 10
            Quote: Chukcha
            And ask yourself - what kind of fuel did the metal melt at that time? Isn't it already a tree? And why did a tree giving only 1090 C melt a metal with a melting point of 1140C? ;)

            Coal
          2. Geton
            0
            7 October 2012 03: 13
            Quote: Chukcha
            And ask yourself - what kind of fuel did the metal melt at that time? Isn't it already a tree? And why did a tree giving only 1090 C melt a metal with a melting point of 1140C? ;)

            And if you think about it, you can remember about coal.
            1. 0
              7 October 2012 11: 47
              Do you know how coal was received at that time? Very simple - reheat the tree)))
      2. 0
        6 October 2012 12: 47
        "
        And now the question for “historians”: How did cassiterite get from the British Isles to “ancient Egypt, Sumer, and China?”


        Tin was transported to Egypt from the territory of present-day Iran. In Southeast Asia, quite large reserves of tin.
        China also has considerable reserves.

        A simple popular science book - http://tapemark.narod.ru/olovo/index.html#1
        1. Geton
          0
          7 October 2012 03: 15
          Quote: Chukcha
          Tin was transported to Egypt from the territory of present-day Iran. In Southeast Asia, quite large reserves of tin.
          China also has considerable reserves.

          By rail or by bulk carriers?
          1. 0
            7 October 2012 11: 48
            No, it was easier - they carried ships and caravans. Trade relations have already been established.
      3. 0
        6 October 2012 13: 08
        How did cassiterite get from the British Isles to “ancient Egypt, Sumer, and China?”


        Tin was transported to Egypt from various places - Spain, the Caucasus, Persia (Iran).
        http://www.chem.msu.su/rus/history/element/Sn.html
        China also has reserves.

        There is some kind of glitch on the site, while trying to edit, the current posts may disappear.
  17. Kir
    +1
    5 October 2012 18: 09
    The article is a plus, but the discussion turned into a skirmish !!! As for the story itself, then "this lady" looks like a whore who pays the same ...
    And if, in essence, true history is extremely disadvantageous to a sufficiently "wide circle" of people !!! I would like to give an example from another science of botany, to my question asked to the candidate of sciences, why plant taxonomy cannot be carried out on the basis of modern genetic research, answered that this is expensive !!! So it is so, but there are serious doubts that behind the real difficulties an unsightly reality is hidden, But what about new topics for institutes, dissertations and ..... !!!
    It's the same with History !!! Add a sweet couple of "politics + economics" here !!!! And the situation immediately becomes clear! The true story is NOT PROFITABLE!
    As for European historians, that is, the well-established opinion, and apparently correct, that before the XIIIV century there was a historical novel, more or less close to the truth !. because historians, especially the ancients, did not hesitate to insert from themselves, if they considered it appropriate and dialogues, etc. ...... The same "History of Rome from the founding of the city" by Titus Livy !! see the foreword !!!
    1. 0
      5 October 2012 18: 43
      I think this: there was a story as it is, but the role of the Russians is downplayed. All!
      1. Kir
        +3
        5 October 2012 18: 48
        Wildly I apologize: What is it, what is it? By objective reality or by books, and if by them, by what!
        1. Kshatriy
          0
          5 October 2012 19: 10
          Quote: Kir
          Wildly I apologize: What is it, what is it? By objective reality or by books, and if by them, by what!

          Personally, I really like "Veles's Book" and "Vedas of Perun" ..... (from contemporaries Gumilev, Solovyov, Roerich, Blavatskaya) .... from those who are now alive - for example Ernst Muldashev, Fomienko, Chudinov ...
          1. Kir
            0
            5 October 2012 19: 34
            Solovyov who is SM or another? Blavatskaya and Fomenko, together with Nosovsky, do not recognize at all! Gumilev and Roerich are questionable, but about "Veles's book" and "Vedas of Perun", by the way, Perun is not ours at all, I advise you to contact BUJAN or directly to Yar (from the sech!) I have known him personally for several years!
            1. Kshatriy
              +1
              5 October 2012 19: 43
              Quote: Kir

              Solovyov who SM

              This is which from the 19th century .....
              Quote: Kir
              Blavatsky
              cannot be separated from Roerich ....

              Quote: Kir
              Perun is not ours at all,
              ... Perun is the son of Svarog .......
              Quote: Kir
              "Veles's book"
              .. most likely one of the oldest written artifacts of the Slavs ....
            2. Horde
              +2
              5 October 2012 20: 04
              Blavatsky and Fomenko, coupled with Nosovsky, do not recognize at all!


              is that all? But let's say the dating of ancient horoscopes, Almagest obtained using mathematics and programming, too, do not recognize?
              1. Kshatriy
                +2
                5 October 2012 20: 30
                Quote: Horde
                is that all? But let's say the dating of ancient horoscopes, Almagest obtained using mathematics and programming, too, do not recognize?

                Let the supernova explosion first be refuted from where the crab nebula came from and the brightest "Bethlehem" star appeared ... this is the 12th century, but not 1 AD ... It is impossible to refute the New Chronology from the point of view of mathematical analysis and modern astronomy .. ..but after all there are obscurantists who foaming at the mouth prove the opposite ...
      2. Geton
        +1
        7 October 2012 05: 45
        Quote: Deniska999

        I think so:

        The academician from mathematics Fomenko considers however better.
  18. Horde
    +1
    5 October 2012 19: 37
    After reading Alexander Samsonov’s historical digression, I’d like, as usual, to pretend that the author does not bother with references to controversial issues. For example.

    The first iron swords were discovered precisely in the Dorian layers, from the 11th century BC. e .. Moreover, the Greek alphabet, which does not have direct succession with the ancient Mycene syllabic, was apparently also brought from the north. As a result, in the 11th century BC. e. in Greece, an alphabetical letter appears, iron processing technology, a new religion and mythology (subjects of the Homeric epos). All this was brought with them by the Dorians.


    Swords made of iron 11th century BC ??? vryatli according to TI, the iron epoch came 1-2 centuries BC
    The article is written in a kind of "mixed" style, i.e. - this is no longer a traditional story, taking into account the fact that, in spite of the TI, the author classifies the Scythians as the ancestors of the Russians, but does not pass us over to the position of the New Chronology of FIN, given that he leaves the time frame for the Dorians, Greeks, Scythians traditional.
    The main difference between HX and TI is that many facts found by history are not rejected by HX, but only transfer them to other time intervals, because how to explain such that Homer who lived 400 years after the Trojan War could sing praise to ancient heroes, and then 300 or 400 years before the invention of writing, word of mouth passed 24 songs on average 500 lines each and this is only Odyssey. Could this be? Rather, Homer is a medieval author, and the Trojan War is a medieval war in FIN between the Byzantines and Russia.
    1. Kshatriy
      +2
      5 October 2012 19: 58
      Quote: Horde
      Rather, Homer is a medieval author, and the Trojan War is a medieval war in FIN between the Byzantines and Russia.

      I completely agree with you ... + as always ...)))
  19. Gad
    0
    5 October 2012 19: 49
    The kings of the Bosporus were named Spartok and their dynasty was called Spartokid, although some scholars believe that the names Spartok and Spartok are the same.
    1. Kir
      0
      5 October 2012 21: 06
      By the way, on this topic there is a good book by the German author Helmut Höfling "Romans. Slaves. Gladiators" (Spartacus at the gates of Rome)
    2. 0
      5 October 2012 21: 13
      Personally, it doesn’t matter to me, Spartok or Spartak, most importantly he is the ancestor of the Slavs and put the Roman Empire on his ears.
      1. Kir
        0
        5 October 2012 22: 21
        Everyone can believe in anything. But since his pedigree is not known for certain, it remains in the field of myths as well as his demise, or there was a living witness of those events who dotted all I, but no one knew!
  20. Blat
    0
    5 October 2012 23: 53
    Burebista is the king of Dacia, who subjugated the vast Thracian territory from modern Moravia in the west to the Bug River in the east, from the Carpathians in the north, to Dionisopolis (modern Balchik) in the south.
    Decebalus is the king of Dacia, who won many battles with the Romans, but was defeated by the army of Trajan.

    Spartacus is a Roman gladiator who rebelled on the Apennine Peninsula in 73-71 BC. His army, consisting mainly of escaped gladiators and slaves, defeated several Roman legions in a war known as the “Third Slave War” or “Spartacus Rebellion”.
    GREAT HISTORIANS))))))))))))))))))))) WHAT DO THESE NAMES SAY FOR YOU? YES NOT ABOUT THESE ONLY, THESE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE HISTORY OF MY PEOPLE, PERIOD BEFORE THE GET Geto Dacia ROME.
    And the capital of GETA-DACIA was called SARMIZECHETUZA. Very Slavic name)))))))))))))))))))))

    but the description of the incomplete Thracian tribe of the Agathirs (Scythian-Thracian tribe)
    Agafirs (dr. Greek Ἀγάθυρσοι, eponym Agafirs) - tribes of the early Iron Age (VII-V centuries BC), which are mentioned by Herodotus. Neighboring the Scythians and the Neuros.

    The mythical ancestor - the eponym of the Agafirs, was Agafirs, the son of Heracles and the serpentine goddess - the autochthonous deity of Gilea [1] (for some authors - Echidna). According to Herodotus, the Pontic Greeks believed that Agafirs became the ancestor of the Western Scythians living at Istra, and similar in customs to the Thracians.

    Herodotus localized the country of the Agafirs at the northern border of Scythia - at the source of the Maris River, which flows into Istra [2] (possibly the modern river Mures and Transylvania) and considered their customs similar to the Thracian ones, adding that the agafirs are “the most effeminate tribe” and that they , unlike the neighbors, “come together with women so as not to envy and not be at enmity with each other” [3].

    According to Herodotus, in the Scythian war against Darius, the Agafirs - like other northern Scythian neighbors - refused their military assistance, since they considered Darius' campaign a response to the Scythian attacks on Persian lands [4].

    For Roman authors, the localization of agafirs is somewhat different from the Herodotine: Pliny the Elder places them northeast of Thrace - behind the lands of the Neuros at the origins of Borisfen (Dnieper), especially noting their “blue hair” [5]; according to Ammianus Marcellinus, agafirs are one of the peoples that lived on the swampy eastern coast of Meotida (the Sea of ​​Azov), behind the Asian possessions of the Bosporus kingdom, he wrote that their lands are abundant with “adamant stone” [6].

    The question of the ethnicity of agafirs and their localization is lively debated. Most researchers see them as Thracians, the ancestors of the Getae and Dacians who occupied the territory of Transylvania and Wallachia. Others - Scythians, Slavs, Scytho-Thracians. [7] [8]
  21. cooper
    +2
    6 October 2012 18: 26
    It is strange that all of the above has not been found, nor any responses in our ethnic group. Neither have you any tales or traditions.
  22. Miha_Skif
    0
    6 October 2012 21: 52
    Alexander, respectfully take off my hat hi
    It is a great work - to shove through a bunch of materials, rethink everything and publish such a fascinating article "on the mountain", and at the same time manage not to overload it with secondary details ... good