Backlog of Russian technology at the beginning of the XX century

It all probably started with this quote here:

"... Progressive, advanced Asia has dealt an irreparable blow to backward and reactionary Europe ... The return of Port Arthur by Japan is a blow dealt to all reactionary Europe."

Well, and the Russian national disease - a holy conviction, rooted in the era of Peter the Great, that the Russian is always worse, and the Russians cannot do things as efficiently as foreigners. Yes, and it's convenient - to blame everything on technology, the bosses seem to have nothing to do with it, the people are wild and crooked, what to do? Meanwhile, the Russian fleet before the Russo-Japanese War was technically advanced, worse than the English and French, but no worse than the American or Italian. And this was manifested literally in everything. Take the same power plant (main power plants): on the battleship "Rostislav" in 1898 they switched to oil as fuel.

And the results were impressive:

"The steam in the oil-fired boilers kept remarkably even, without the fluctuations that always occur with coal heating, and within the limits set by the specification."

Oil heating was slowly introduced on the destroyers of the Black Sea fleet, and on the gunboat "Uralets", it was planned on the "Potemkin", but in the end it did not take off. And curvature along with stupidity has nothing to do with it. Two extraneous factors worked: firstly, oil required more qualified specialists, which was, in principle, solvable, but secondly, the lack of the possibility of refueling in ocean voyages, which finally put an end to the idea. The fleet could not afford two types of fuel, and the world had not yet matured to oil (more precisely, fuel oil). As a result, logistics won out over innovation, but the development and purchase of new power plants did not stop.

In 1901, the destroyer "Vidny" of the "Buyny" type was laid down, in 1902 it was decided to complete it with a power plant in the form of two oil engines from Lutsk, three thousand horsepower each. The development of motors went slowly, this was not yet built in those days, and as a result, the destroyer was completed according to the original project, during the war it was somehow not up to experiments. Nevertheless, a step was taken, and a considerable step, ICEs increasingly became an alternative to steam engines. Although there was complete order with the turbines:

“... On September 23, 1904, a turbine destroyer Carolina disguised as a yacht (displacement of 160 tons, speed of 31 knots), disguised as a yacht, left the UK for Libau, and arrived at its destination on September 28. The destroyer <...> was enlisted in the Russian fleet in March 1905 under the name "Swallow". "

Already during the war in England (through the French intermediaries and under the guise of a yacht), a turbine destroyer was purchased for the production of experiments. "Swallow" survived until 1923. To summarize - the backwardness of reactionary Europe is somehow not noticeable - in terms of the GEM we were in no way inferior to other countries, there were also our own studies, there were purchased ones, like everyone else. The Japanese, by the way, in this sense were far from us, simply for the reason that they did not build more armored decks at that time. So maybe the cannons?

No, our guns may not have been like that, but the problem is that our medium-caliber guns were French of the Canet system, and no one scolded the 203-mm Brink systems and Obukhov's 305-mm ones. The same 305-mm, installed on the railway conveyors, served until the Second World War, and even a little after its end. In advanced Asia, guns, by the way, were Armstrong systems. Even the shells, which many consider to be the culprits of our defeats, and they carried the elements of high-tech - both relieving and detonating - these are all the consequences of Russian experiments. Yes, it didn't work, but at the same time it was, the work was carried out in an active way. In the same way as for armor, and for unsinkability, and anti-torpedo protection ...

With the light hand of battalier Novikov, everyone knows about rangefinders, or rather, their absence, but where and what are they missing?

“The fire control system was installed upon the arrival of the Retvizan in Russia. It included one Barr and Stroud rangefinder and five Lujol micrometers, which made it possible to determine the angular distances to the known vertical value of the target (for example, the height of the masts). The measured distance from micrometers entered the conning tower on the main rangefinder dial, where the artillery officer set the distance on the dial that he considered most likely. In the same place, in the conning tower, there was a combat indicator that determined the course angle of the target, and a projectile dial indicating the type of projectile. All this information was sent to the receiving dials in towers, batteries and cellars by means of synchronous electrical communication. The disadvantages of this system were the limited operating range (up to 40 kbt) and weak short-circuit protection. "

Let's say the Borodintsy went into battle with two rangefinders, Barr and Stroud each. There were, and about 40 cables - these are modern "inventions", in those days, a battle even for 30 was considered unlikely - far away. The Japanese had the same rangefinders and about the same number - "Asama" went into battle with the "Varyag" with two rangefinders Barra and Struda. But I have not heard about attempts to create a central fire control system among the Japanese. And in order not to walk twice - the firing range of the 254-mm guns of the "backward" Russian "Victory" reached 20,5 km, which was even a little too much at that time, it was possible to direct at such distances only by eye ...

In a word - wherever you stick, there is "backwardness" everywhere. And it especially manifested itself in the submarine forces:

"In March 1902" destroyer No. 113 "was enlisted in the lists of the fleet as" Torpedo boat No. 150 "."

Destroyer No. 113 is our first-born Dolphin, the first full-fledged submarine in the Russian fleet.

By the end of the war, there will be a whole detachment of submarines in Vladivostok, the Japanese will buy their first-borns in the United States after the war. Japan, by the way, will never catch up with Russia in submarines - neither in technology nor in tactics of use. Another question is that all this was not decisive - the era of the steel sharks of the ocean would begin later, and in 1904 these were fragile 100-150 ton ships capable of defending their bases, no more. Nevertheless, the groundwork was already in place, and while many were thinking - we were building.

We were also backward in aviation, so backward that they made for the Second Squadron a whole cruiser-balloon-carrier called "Rus".

“Enlisted in the fleet on November 19, 1904, this ship became the world's first balloon-borne cruiser. His weapons there was one spherical balloon, four kite and four signal balloons. However, due to technical problems caused by the tight timeframe of the conversion work, the ship turned out to be incapable of a long ocean voyage: it was not included in the squadron sent to the Far East and was soon sold. "

9 aircraft, while lighter than air, in the First World War it will already be seaplanes and seaplane carriers. It was not for nothing that the watchkeepers of the Navarin during the 2TOE campaign saw a balloon, and the squadron crews were afraid of submarines - for our sailors it was the norm, and they could not imagine that the Japanese (advanced) had none of this. And in vain they could not, and it was so.

The topic could be continued for a long time - it could be about radio, it could be about coastal batteries, or it could be about collapsible destroyers or something else, but why? And so it is clear - technically we were very "backward" and the Japanese were "advanced". And it is easier to repeat the words Lenin said, in essence, about the state system and social relations, than to admit that the iron is not to blame. And people are not to blame, those who served the iron. The fault is those who drew plans on maps and paper, and suffered giddiness from successes in foreign policy, while underestimating the enemy. Logistics and planning, coupled with corruption, would destroy the dreadnought fleet.

Comments

[Proxima]

"We were also backward in aviation, so backward that we made for the Second Squadron a whole cruiser-balloon-carrier called Rus "... - from the text. It turns out that Tsarist Russia was ahead of the rest of the world in aviation. And even produced aircraft engines! Over the entire period of its existence, Russia has produced as many as 50 pieces (including prototypes) An article from the series "The Advanced Russia We Lost".

[Olgovich]

Quote: Proxima

It turns out that Tsarist Russia was ahead of the rest of the world in aviation.

Russia is the world leader in the development and application of PMV naval aviation.

The aircraft carrier fleet of Russia is the second in the world during the Great War, it was armed with Russian aircraft: M-5 seaplanes (reconnaissance, artillery fire spotter, bomber), M-9 (heavy seaplane for bombing coastal targets, batteries and ships ), M-11 (the world's first flying fighter boat)

And it was he who, as part of the world's first AUG, struck the first Perlharbor strike on Zonguldak, Russian naval aviation bombed Istanbul, Bosphorus, Trebizond, Varna, Riza, Rumelia, Sinop, etc.

The world's first submarine mine-layer was built in Russia, like the first diesel submarine (the French claimant for the championship burned out and, as a result, ended up with a gasoline engine).

As for engines, Russia produced a lot of diesel engines, which it taught to work on oil, about 70% of the world's motor ships are Russian, the largest river fleet in the world is the Russian one of its own steamships with Russian machines, Russia is the world leader in steam locomotive construction.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Olgovich

The aircraft carrier fleet of Russia is the second in the world during the Great War, it was armed with exactly Russian aircraft: M-5 seaplanes (reconnaissance, artillery fire spotter, bomber), M-9 (heavy seaplane for bombing coastal targets, batteries and ships ), M-11

Only here's an ambush. On m-5 and 11 there were gnome engines, on m-9 salmon. And the naval aviation of the Republic of Ingushetia - an advanced, technically advanced power, without the supply of French engines, would be a pile of plywood and rails, for which purpose they were assembled into strange structures.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Lannan Shi

Only here's an ambush. On m-5 and 11 there were gnome engines, on m-9 salmon. And the naval aviation of the Republic of Ingushetia - an advanced, technically advanced power, without the supply of French engines, would be a pile of plywood and rails, for which purpose they were assembled into strange structures.

an ambush, it is in my head: Russia had its own aircraft carrier fleet, and the following, practically, did not.

And the pile, however, is already scrap metal - this is what they were able to "build" instead of at least ONE battleship in the next mode.

Russia has built many battleships.

[Civil]

Again the French bun crunched, after the defeat in the Japanese, Russia received the revolution of 1905 and the ruling class did nothing.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Civil

Again the French bun crunched, after the defeat in the Japanese, Russia received the revolution of 1905 and the ruling class did nothing.

the thieves crunched their bones again: an oceanic combat fleet was built, which was used by the USSR and after the Second World War: the battleship Peetropavlovsk was slaughtered until 1953

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Olgovich

Russia had its own aircraft carrier fleet, while the following practically did not.

The RIF did not have an aircraft carrier fleet. At all. There were seaplane transports. Which, in principle, were not aircraft carriers, that is, ships capable of producing aircraft. With the same success, an aircraft tractor can be written into aircraft carriers. Carries the same aircraft. Yeah.
By the way. A similar "wunderwaffe", if necessary, riveted at times. Even during the Civil War. Of all the waste, which is a pity to throw out, because they still somehow stick to the water, but there is nowhere to adapt. In one Volga flotilla there were 4 of them. Only 1 less than in the powerful RIF.
But the only real aircraft carrier in the entire history of the Russian fleet is not a super-industrial Republic of Ingushetia, and not the blessedly mighty Putin's Russia, but a damned scoop. Yeah.

Quote: Olgovich

And the pile, however, is already scrap metal - this is what they were able to "build" instead of at least ONE battleship in the next mode.

Laponka ... Do you even know that all the battleships of the RIF, without the help of the damned naglichans, were no more. than the same scrap metal? You understand what the matter is. Battleships of the early 20th century were slightly different from their counterparts from the 18th century. And the tactics - "lined up in a line, almost burying their cannons on the sides of the enemy", did not roll in the 20th century. And the battle distance of 15-25 cables (and this is the maximum that the RIF battleships could show, without the rangefinders of the damned British), was slightly small even for light cruisers PMV. And the only reason why Magdeburg could not have drowned the same seva, in purely Russian, without the help of the damned west, execution ... The capacity of the cellars of that very Magdeburg would not have been enough. And that's all. And so ... A purely Russian battleship would be absolutely helpless against a German light cruiser. For optical glass, the advanced RI did not produce in principle. And the mega-advanced battleships of the RIF would have to shoot according to the principle - well, roughly in that direction.
And by the way. About birds. Soviet cruisers of the 68-bis series are not much less than Sevastopol. But they built 2 times more of them, and they did not depend on imported components. Yeah.

Quote: Olgovich

ambush, she's in the head

Not in my head. In its contents. More precisely, in the scarcity of this very content. But you are the one. And then crucify about the RIF aircraft carriers. So my words will be clearer.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Lannan Shi

But you are the one. And then crucify about the RIF aircraft carriers. So my words will be clearer.

Oh, aircraft carriers in the Russian Empire are Olgovich's favorite feature, and he also loves about the advanced Russian diesel engine and the world's best steam locomotives ...

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Fitter65

and he also loves about the advanced Russian diesel engine and the world's best steam locomotives ...

I can suggest the points on which the leadership of the Republic of Ingushetia is undeniable. For example, the production of sickles, and the number of dry. Here, without options, ahead of the rest. Yeah. The truth with braids is already sadder. RI was not able to provide itself with this mega-complex device. had to be imported. Yeah.
And steam locomotives ... As for the best in the world, one can agree, one can argue. But mechanical engineering as a whole ... When 3 years of war were enough for the complete degradation of that very locomotive fleet, it seemed to hint that there were a little more problems in that very locomotive building. than dofiga.

[Aviator_]

production of sickles, and the number of dryers.

I forgot to write about bast shoes.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Lannan Shi

When 3 years of war were enough for the complete degradation of that very locomotive fleet

complete degradation, namely the death of the steam locomotive, occurred after the VOR and the "successful" economic policy of the VORs - until 1925, steam locomotives were practically not produced and the country went on Russian steam locomotives for many years

and during the war, Russia built steam locomotives 1914 - 763, 1915 - 917,1916, 600 - 1917, 420 - XNUMX, which is more than before WWI

Russia had the largest advanced river fleet in the world of steamers and motor ships of OWN production. The world's first diesel-electric ship-Russian

Quote: Lannan Shi

I can suggest the points on which the leadership of the Republic of Ingushetia is undeniable

yes, a Russian man could eat and dress, as in 1913, only after 40 years, see. report of the Central Statistical Board in 1955, and in the "happy" 1937 he was still dying of hunger and ate patal and surrogates. ... All GV, 1921,22,23,24,25,28,30,32,33,34,36,37,46,47 were dying of hunger in "Narstran".

[Olgovich]

Quote: Lannan Shi

The RIF did not have an aircraft carrier fleet. At all. There were seaplane transports. Which aircraft carriers, that is, ships capable of producing aircraft, were not, in principle,

it was still not enough for an ignoramus to define aircraft carriers.

Chop on your forehead:

aircraft carriers - a class of warships adapted for servicing and basing air groups as a mobile air base operating on the high seas

therefore Russia possessed aircraft carrier fleet, and it was he who provided the bombardment of Istanbul, Bosphorus, Trebizond, Varna, Riza, Rumelia, Sinop, etc., the VOR did not smell of this,

Quote: Lannan Shi

In one Volga flotilla such It was.

Such ?! Yes, to whom and the mare's bride. from)
drag your barge to the Bosphorus, yeah.

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the only one in the entire history of the Russian fleet, real an aircraft carrier, this is not a super-industrial RI, and not the blessedly mighty Putin's Russia, but a damned scoop

and you don’t know it: it’s an aircraft carrier cruiser, who scared the whole of Europe with his smoke and caused a lot of "will or will not" bets and got up from the experience to the eternal joke

Quote: Lannan Shi

Laponka ... Do you even know that all the battleships of the RIF, without the help of the damned naglichans, were no more. than thus scrap metal?

little knife, these Russian battleships served and fired in the Second World War, in contrast to scrap metal failed "battleship" of the Bolsheviks.

Quote: Lannan Shi

could not would, enough would... was would

you confused the site: this is not a fortuneteller's club, yes

Quote: Lannan Shi

Soviet cruisers of the 68-bis series are not much less than Sevastopol

that's it: it took the Bolsheviks several DECADES to at least catch up with

Quote: Lannan Shi

Not in my head. In its contents. More precisely, in the scarcity of this very content.

what kind of "content" can there be in ... the solid bone of the legs?

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Olgovich

aircraft carriers - a class of warships adapted for servicing and basing air groups as a mobile air base operating on the high seas

Laponka. Advice. Good. If you are pulling a quote from where, take it in its entirety, and do not edit it to your liking.

An aircraft carrier is a class of warships adapted for servicing and basing air groups as a mobile air base operating on the high seas. The main striking force of the aircraft carrier is the ship-based deck aviation (planes, helicopters and UAVs),

And this is how it sounds, if you take it in a slightly more expanded form.

Quote: Olgovich

therefore Russia possessed an aircraft carrier fleet,

Quote: Olgovich

and you don’t know it: this is an aircraft-carrying cruiser,

Ah ... Well, yes, well, yes. Kuzya is a poor aircraft-carrying cruiser, and the eagle is a full-fledged aircraft carrier. I repeat -
By the way. The seaplanes carried all the cruisers of the 26 and 26 bis series. Plus Ch. Ukraine and K. Caucasus. Well, all 3 LC. So ... By the beginning of the Second World War, the USSR had a powerful aircraft carrier fleet, if you take your nonsense.

Quote: Olgovich

it was still not enough for an ignoramus to define aircraft carriers.

How self-critical you are.

Quote: Olgovich

Russia had the largest forward river fleet in the world

And then what? A feature of geography, and nothing more. But in terms of the size of the merchant fleet tonnage, it did not fall into the top ten. Yielding to impudent people almost 25 times.

Quote: Olgovich

to eat and dress, as in 1913, the Russian people could only after 40 years-

Is this something like this? Not. This has not been achieved even 40 years later. This is only 80, under the new authorities. The Koi led the country to "boHATy and prosperity."

[Region-25.rus]

instead of at least ONE battleship in the next mode.

began to build battleships with 406-mm artillery! But (!) In the first place - war! Secondly, it was already clear that battleships did not rule. And aircraft carriers rule. Examples of Pearl Harbor, Prince of Wales, Yamato, Musashi and others rolled into a pancake by carrier-based aircraft do not say anything? Well, did we have "battleships" of the tsarist yet construction? With 305mm artillery. So the British had battleships (much more in the number of keels) on PMV and with 381-mm artillery. Germany has a similar story. And .... a lot of those battleships (royal) fought? Especially in the Baltic. Stood in the form of floating batteries !!! About

Russia has built many battleships.

.... and ... to the point? Where and how did they show themselves? What have you influenced?

[Andy]

look for pl Bars engines ... interesting stuff :)

[knn54]

The Anglophiles are to blame for the leadership of the Republic of Ingushetia. And the degradation of the nobility, especially in the upper echelons.
Virtually all of the naval elite perished during Tsushima.
I have long been tormented by one question - the surrender of Vlasov to the Germans by the peasants.
Would this have happened in tsarist Russia?

[Basil50]

There is no doubt that the RUSSIAN EMPIRE was technically developed no worse than France-Britain-Germany. This tsar and his entourage lived with representations of the terry Middle Ages. I read about how in RUSSIA they built a hydroelectric power station on Volkhov, for the production of aluminum from nearby bauxite, the tsar demanded to sell the power plant to the French on the terms of the French themselves. It is also significant how the company * Philips * arose and developed. It is also very revealing how Fyodorov's developments on automatic weapons were simply handed over to the French. There are many such examples, up to the return of gold mining in the Lena mines to the British.
But perhaps the most striking thing is the military alliance with France, and then with England, the very alliance of the * Entente *. It is amazing how this union was created and then executed.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Vasily50

There is no doubt about the fact that the RUSSIAN EMPIRE was technically developed no worse than France-Britain-Germany

Isn't that funny yourself? The "advanced" RI did not release its bearings, but the bearings, sewing needles, and they were German.)))))) Traded in grain, that's it! I didn’t make any tractors or agricultural machinery. Farm. there was no production of its own. As far as I remember, iodine and that, only the Bolsheviks began to make oaths, on an industrial scale.))))) You can google how many each of the countries in WWI made machine guns, RI is the same first, only from the end.))))

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Vasily50

There is no doubt about the fact that the RUSSIAN EMPIRE was technically developed no worse than France-Britain-Germany.

The pre-war "Most Subject Reports" do not share your optimism. Where you do not open them - everywhere it is written about a significant lag in agriculture and industry of the Empire.
And the well-known story with "Maxims" also somehow does not fit well with "technical development is not worse than France-Britain-Germany". Let me remind you that when, after the start of WWI, the need to dramatically increase the production of machine guns was revealed, it turned out that there is only one plant in the whole Empire that can technically produce Maxims - the same one that produced them before. at best half the needs of the front.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Vasily50

I read about how in RUSSIA a hydroelectric power station was built on Volkhov, for the production of aluminum from nearby bauxite, the tsar demanded to sell the power plant to the French on the terms of the French themselves.

WHERE did you read it? This is definitely not your unbridled fantasies?
The first hydroelectric power station on Volkhov (it is also the only one) was built by the Bolsheviks as part of the GOELRO plan, and the "nearby bauxites" are located in the Tikhvin-Boksitogorsk region, and this, neither more nor less, a hundred kilometers in a straight line and they also began to develop not earlier than the middle 20s last century...
Which king, which French? Only Stalin could sell the Volkhov hydroelectric power station to someone, but, as far as I know, he did not.
I fully admit that somewhere in the vastness of the Russian Empire, someone mined some kind of ore, a small power plant was built nearby on a local river, and out of all this wealth someone sold something to the French, perhaps on their terms and, perhaps, poor fellow Nicholas II might even know something about this deal. Perhaps it was in the Urals. Perhaps in Altai or Kuban.
But this was definitely not the case on Volkhov.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: knn54

one question is the surrender of Vlasov to the Germans by the peasants.
Would this have happened in tsarist Russia?

As far as I remember, everything was exactly the opposite: the peasants of the village into which Vlasov came out, offered him shelter in order to subsequently contact the partisans, who were enough in that area, but he only found out where the Germans had the nearest commandant's office and personally went there to surrender ...

[Richard]

Misha
With all due respect, you are wrong here:

"... On July 11, Chief of Staff Vinogradov proposed to split into groups of several people and go out to their own. Major General Afanasyev, the chief of communications of the army, objected. He suggested that everyone walk together to the Oredezh River and Lake Chernoe, where they can feed themselves by fishing. , and where the partisan detachments should be. Afanasyev's plan was rejected, but no one began to interfere with him on his route. 4 people left Afanasyev. Literally a day later, Afanasyev's group met with the partisans, who contacted the “mainland.” A plane arrived for the general who took him to the rear.
Alexei Vasilievich Afanasyev turned out to be the only representative of the highest command staff of the 2nd Shock Army who managed to get out of the encirclement. After the hospital, he returned to duty, and continued to serve, ending his career as the chief of communications for the artillery of the Soviet Army.
Vlasov's group was reduced to four people. He parted with Vinogradov, who was ill, which is why the general gave him his greatcoat. On July 12, Vlasov's group split up to travel to two villages in search of food. With the general remained the cook of the canteen of the military council of the army, Maria Voronova. They entered the village of Tukhovezhi, posing as refugees. Vlasov, who identified himself as a school teacher, asked for food. They were fed, after which they suddenly pointed their weapons and locked them in a barn. The local headman turned out to be the "hospitable host", who summoned local residents from the auxiliary police to help.
It is known that Vlasov had a pistol with him, but he did not resist. The headman did not identify the general, but considered the newcomers partisans.
In the morning of the next day, a German special group drove into the village, which the headman asked to pick up the prisoners. The Germans shrugged it off, because they were following ... General Vlasov. The day before, the German command received information that General Vlasov had been killed in a skirmish with a German patrol. The corpse in the general's overcoat, which was examined by the members of the group, upon arriving at the scene, was identified as the body of the commander of the 2nd shock army. In fact, Colonel Vinogradov was killed. On the way back, having already passed Tukhovezhi, the Germans remembered their promise and returned for the unknown. When the barn door opened, a phrase in German sounded out of the darkness: - Don't shoot, I'm General Vlasov!
The headman of the village for the extradition of Vlasov received from the command of the 18th German army a cow, 10 packs of makhorka, two bottles of caraway vodka and a certificate of honor ... "
link: Aleksandrov K. M. "General Vlasov. Final"

look, Aleksandrov has a lot of documents, both ours and German, interrogation protocols, testimonies of witnesses and eyewitnesses

[Trilobite Master]

We need to look more precisely. I have been interested in this issue for a relatively long time.
After reading the name "Tukhovezhi" I immediately remembered that I had read that it was there that Vlasov went to surrender. He came and began to ask that the Germans be summoned. Tukhovezhi before the war was considered a relatively large village, more than a hundred people of the permanent population, and there, according to all his calculations, there should have been German power.
Here's what I found - offhand.
https://casmeya.livejournal.com/9871.html

[Karabut Karabut]

- the surrender of Vlasov to the Germans by the peasants.
Would this have happened in tsarist Russia? -
There are two points, the first is that Vlasov asked to inform the Germans about him, and not to hide him at all.
The second village was Old Believer, and the attitude of the Old Believers to the imperial authorities was very negative (we read Pyzhikov), so they would have given up running.
In general, the soldier-commander of the Red Army could well count on the help of the population everywhere except Western Ukraine and the Baltic states, of course, not without exceptions.

[Ryazan87]

And even produced aircraft engines! Over the entire period of its existence, Russia has produced as many as 50 pieces (including prototypes)

No.
“In 1914–1916, factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. In November 1915 - November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; about 500 from Russian factories. At the time of its highest development, Russian industry gave in 1916 1769 aircraft (666 engines). "
Less silly emoticons, read more on the topic.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Ryazanets87

“In 1914–1916, factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. In November 1915 - November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; about 500 from Russian factories. At the time of its highest development, Russian industry gave in 1916 1769 aircraft (666 engines). "

Agree that not every country could compete with the Russian Empire in the production of aircraft, as many as 1769 aircraft,

true The German aviation industry built 47 aircraft during the First World War.

Well, again, this is German industry for the whole war, and not for one 1916th ...

[Ryazan87]

Agree that not every country could compete with the Russian Empire in the production of aircraft, as many as 1769 aircraft,

I agree. Less than a dozen countries in the world then, in principle, could produce aircraft.

Well, again, this is German industry for the whole war, and not for one 1916th ...

What did you want to say? That Germany's industry was more developed? Thanks for this valuable information.
Then you can, for example, compare the number of tanks produced in Germany and France in WWI - and instruct a bunch of emoticons. Winks. Laughing. Anything.

[boris epstein]

And if you also compare how many BUILDING tanks RI has released? ... Well, not a single one! Two experienced - "All-terrain vehicle" Porokhovshchikov and Lebedenko's tank carriage. Plus a project by Vasily Dmitrievich Mendeleev. In defense of Russian inventors, there are Novik-class destroyers with oil-heated boilers, powerful weapons and high speed, and Ilya Muromets-class heavy bombers. The unfinished battle cruiser Izmail was still on the stocks. And now about the quantity. RI built 7 dreadnought battleships. England-41 battleship + 6 battle cruisers, France-12 battleships, USA-22 battleships, Italy-10 battleships, Germany-19 battleships + 7 battle cruisers. RI did not produce light machine guns at all.

[Ryazan87]

And if you also compare how many BUILDING tanks RI has released? ... Well, not a single one!

Well, the Germans were able to less than 50. The Austro-Hungarians did not have a single one. With tanks, in principle, it turned out interestingly in the first war.

RI built 7 dreadnought battleships.

And a decent amount of unfinished - the same "Ishmaels". Of course, absolutely in vain, all this money and resources had to be spent on the land army.

RI did not produce light machine guns at all.

But the groundwork and the legacy left in the form of the existing JSC "Plant im. V. A. Degtyarev "(JSC" ZiD ") -" On August 27, 1916 in the city of Kovrov, construction of the plant of the First Russian Joint Stock Company of Rifle and Machine Gun Plants was started ... In January 1917, the plant received a license for the exclusive production of a "three-line rifle - machine gun "Madsen" "with all accessories," for the supply of such to the Russian army and navy, both in war and in peacetime. "
Well, if about the shooter, then the Fedorov automatic rifle is not a sin to remember.
Who was it good with handbrakes? The Lewis are British, the Shosh is still a dream of reason ..

[boris epstein]

Well, Dur-Vagena tanks were not in fact. These were lightly armored unarmed transporter tractors.

[Karabut Karabut]

destroyers of the "Novik" -type no longer cant, the historian M. Morozov proved the German project to Tactic Media.

[boris epstein]

"The media tactician proved the historian M. Morozov-German project."
Look without prejudice and make sure that Morozov is lying. The Noviks of both series were three-pipe, while the German destroyers of the V-99 and S-113 types were two-pipe. On German destroyers, the forecastle ended BEFORE the bow superstructure, and on the Noviks, the superstructure was on the forecastle. The noviks of the first series were twin-screw, the second series were three-propeller. The add-ons of the Novikov were very different from the add-ons of the German destroyers. The project was Russian. Initially, German destroyers armed with 88mm cannons, and Noviki 102,4mm cannons, which surpassed the Germans in firing range. Then the Germans re-armed their S-113 and S-100 with 105mm guns, but with manual feed and manual loading, which reduced the rate of fire. German sailors complained that the destroyers of these series were inferior to the Noviks in maneuverability. In addition, the specific fuel consumption exceeded the calculated one, which reduced the cruising range of the German destroyers. Of the eight firms that built Noviks, only two were German. And for "Noviks" the Germans supplied ONLY steam turbines, the rest was Russian. In the battle, the Novik himself knocked out one German destroyer and forced him to withdraw from the battle, and the second forced him to run aground. One against two!

[gsev]

Quote: Karabut Karabut

destroyers of the "Novik" -type-now do not sail, the historian M.Morozov proved on Tactic Media-German project

The mathematician and shipbuilder Krylov wrote in his memoirs that the Novik project was developed in Russia, but the Putilov plant could not independently make a ship that fully met the requirements of the military. To help in the development of working documentation and technology, the Putilov plant hired a German company. The revision of Novik was transferred to Germany. After alteration at a German plant, Novik showed the stated requirements during tests. The Germans liked the project and they began to make similar destroyers. Krylov had the opportunity to compare Novik with the French destroyers of the same type during World War I.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ryazanets87

“In 1914–1916, factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. In November 1915 - November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; about 500 from Russian factories. At the time of its highest development, Russian industry gave in 1916 1769 aircraft (666 engines). "

And now we look at the full quote from the original source:

In 1914-1916. factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. Between November 1915 and November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; from Russian factories - about 500. At the time of the highest development, Russian industry in 1916 produced 1769 aircraft (666 engines). In Germany, in the same year, the production of aircraft reached 8182 (7823 engines), in France - 7549 aircraft and 16 engines, in Great Britain - from July 875 to February 1915 - 1917; while a third of engines for British aircraft came from France. But even this comparison is lame, since in a significant part, Russian indicators for both engines and aircraft relate to assembly from finished parts and assemblies... The development of aircraft engines was carried out in the laboratories and workshops of the Shipbuilding Department of the Petrograd Polytechnic Institute, but the judgment of M.V. Alekseeva: “The main reason for the poor development of aviation in our country is the lack of engines. In this respect, we are helpless. We make the bodies of the apparatus, but we cannot produce their "souls" - the motors "

© Polikarpov V.V. Russian military-industrial policy 1914-1917

This is the key to hundreds of Russian aircraft engines - a screwdriver assembly from ready-made imported kits.

[Ryazan87]

It was even more difficult there: a part of the nomenclature of parts was required, and not ready-made kits (taking into account the difficulties of logistics, it was easier to supply ready-made motors).
If you give a list of problems:
1. The absence of its own school of engine building, it was just beginning to emerge. The inevitable way is to copy foreign designs. The USSR, in fact, was quite successful in doing the same, including after WWII;
2. The initial period of development of the industrial base of engine building - although many factories that are still operating today were just created at the end of the empire:
- PJSC "UEC-Saturn" - "... In 1916, with the highest approval of Nicholas II and on the basis of a state loan, an automobile plant was created in the city of Rybinsk - JSC" Russian Renault ".", - Yaroslavl Motor Plant (PJSC "Avtodizel") - "The plant was founded in 1916 by the Russian industrialist V. A. Lebedev as part of the government program for the creation of the automotive industry in Russia.",
- JSC "UEC-Klimov" - "On October 20, 1914, by the highest permission of Emperor Nicholas II, it was decided to open the Renault plant."
- PJSC "UEC-Kuznetsov" - "In 1912, in Moscow, behind the Semyonovskaya outpost, the" Gnome "plant was created, producing motors of the same name with a capacity of 50 hp. In 1918, the plant was nationalized, and it was assigned No. 2".
- JSC "UEC" Production complex "Salut" "-" The enterprise was founded on October 19, 1912 by the French company "Gnome-Rhone", when a small plant was created to assemble aircraft rotary seven-cylinder radial engines "Gnome" with a capacity of 80 hp. "
In short, they began to cross themselves when the thunder struck.
3. Late government policy to support and stimulate high-tech industries.
4. Lack of trained and educated personnel, and not so much engineers as skilled workers.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ryazanets87

The initial period of development of the industrial base of engine building - although many factories that are still operating today were just created at the end of the empire

And here we come to the main problem of the Empire: all imperial high-tech should be created with state money. Private traders received a state loan and a state order - after a while there will be factories, planes and cars. There is no government order - everything, everyone sits exactly, and if they produce high-tech, then in homeopathic quantities. Or they close the plant altogether, switching to what is demanded by the state.
For Russia does not have an internal market, the capacity of which would allow a private owner to establish mass production without state support. And in foreign markets, there are enough of their producers.
And if the state clicked its beak did not bother with the creation of the industry, then the private trader will not develop it. Vaughn, Lessner tried to produce cars - he spat. closed the plant and went to make torpedoes for the state order.
That is why many factories that are still operating were just created at the end of the empire - because the state order and loans for them were allocated either before or after the start of the PMA.

[Ryazan87]

Yes, absolutely. All high-tech from scratch (like fundamental science) will not bring quick money, the investments are huge, as are the risks. Unfortunately, resources began to be invested already during the war, when it was too late. At the same time, it is possible to understand the error in something: they did not count on protracted world conflict (and not only RI), so why? The Russian army by the 14th year - more than 1 million bayonets and sabers, modern small arms, excellent field artillery, a lot of excellent cavalry, the most numerous military aviation, fresh combat experience with an equal enemy - in contrast to the same Germans. For a short, up to six months, maneuverable war, it seems like all the reasons for optimism. It turned out, however, everything is much worse ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ryazanets87

All high-tech from scratch (like fundamental science) will not bring quick money, the investments are huge, as are the risks.

The ambush is that in the Empire high-tech a priori will not bring a lot of money - for it will remain a toy for an insignificant stratum of the rich. Who should we sell the same cars to, if 2/3 of the population lives practically on subsistence farming, from harvest to harvest? Taxi fleets? So they too - only for the rich. So it turns out that someone has 10 taxis in the capital, while others have 000.

[Ryazan87]

To whom to sell the same cars

Therefore, at first, not cars, but trucks and tractors. Leasing, something like MTS is also possible (but here, too, state support is needed) - to target agriculture and the needs of industry. Locomotives and wagons were quite successfully made and produced, by the way, and this is also a kind of high-tech, and it rose in cargo transportation. There were really few taxis, but trams were quite common in large cities and the show jumping was supplanted quite quickly.
With passenger cars, there is still a problem in the undeveloped network of at least highways.

[Karabut Karabut]

But the trams were German, and the main thing in the country was not, not a single research institute as a reserve for the future. In 1925, the Bolsheviks already had 80 of them.

[Ryazan87]

But the trams were German.

Not certainly in that way. Trams, indeed, were actively purchased abroad, but they were also produced in Russia:
- Mytishchi Machine-Building Plant (founded in 1897) - "In 1903, the production of tram cars and snow plows for Moscow began."
- Plant "Engine" (founded in 1899 in Revel) - "The plant was engaged in the construction of wagons of various types. Orders were accepted for the production of iron bridges, railway switches, trolleys, various metal parts. Trams were also produced, which were sold within the borders of the Russian empire ".
- Kolomna Machine-Building Plant (founded in 1870). Pay attention to the red line I have highlighted.

Russian-Baltic Carriage Works (founded in 1869)
for example: "... Of the 20 pre-revolutionary 4-axle trams in Moscow, 10 were built in Germany, and 10 in Riga at the Russian-Baltic Carriage Works (RBVZ, ...)."

[Karabut Karabut]

You are right, I have incorrect information.

[Alf]

Quote: Ryazanets87

And even produced aircraft engines! Over the entire period of its existence, Russia has produced as many as 50 pieces (including prototypes)

No.
“In 1914–1916, factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. In November 1915 - November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; about 500 from Russian factories. At the time of its highest development, Russian industry gave in 1916 1769 aircraft (666 engines). "
Less silly emoticons, read more on the topic.

Ay, you're not telling the truth ...
I found the place where you quoted the quote. And it was necessary to bring it in full.

Reporting on its work during 1911, the War Ministry reported to the tsar that Russia could already manufacture "all items of aeronautical equipment, with the exception of aeronautical engines and a few precision instruments ... Attempts by some Russian factories to manufacture engines did not yield favorable results."

We can do everything except what the airplane flies on ..

An analysis of the situation that had arisen by November 1916 in supplying the front with aircraft led the aviation department to the conclusion that it was impossible to carry out “even the minimal program of Russian airplane construction,” which was reduced to only about a third of the total army supply plan.
The front's demand reached 3375 aircraft. Russian factories at that moment were busy with orders for a total of 2290 aircraft, but 80% of them did not make sense to build, because there were no engines for them: there are 525 - "15% of the required number", not counting outdated and unusable (1933 PC.). Lacked 1765 pcs. The WWF management admitted that "there is no sufficient reason to count on the performance of Russian engine factories in a size that is in any way capable of filling this gap in motors."
The Office saw a faint hope of "at least partially rectifying" this "catastrophic situation" in "enforcing the exchange of aviation items with the allies for raw materials that we could give them." At a conference in Petrograd in January 1917, the Allies agreed to place orders for 3200 aircraft, including 2200 in France.

[Alf]

I will continue

The bill presented to the tsarist bureaucracy seems fair, considering that part of its burden was borne in solidarity by the owners of industry. The Duma addressed a request for measures "to the development of manufacturing at Russian aircraft engine factories" to the War Ministry when considering the estimates of the GUGSH for 1913 and 1914, and then the Duma members were presented with a reassuring answer: measures are being taken.
"For this purpose, orders are transferred exclusively to Russian factories, and only an insignificant part is purchased abroad as samples" - this concerns the aircraft themselves. But the provision of aviation with engines "cannot yet be considered achieved" "in view of the technical difficulties of their manufacture."
In the report to the tsar, however, the situation was presented in a lighter tone: “At present, almost all items ... including ... airplanes and motors for them, are being built at Russian factories. Abroad one has to acquire only the most limited number of items that require special conditions for their manufacture. "

As it is now for the tsar-father, everything is fine, beautiful marquise ..

[Alf]

I will continue

This circumstance had a particularly important meaning in view of the fact that at the same time, in 1912-1913, the Gnome company, following the calls of the Russian authorities, established its own assembly branch in Moscow (in 1912, the possibility of introducing the production of Gnomes on TOZ). In 1914, 7-10 engines a month were already assembled there.

For the largest supplier of aircraft engines, Russian Renault, the Preparatory Commission for the Special Meeting on Defense on February 2, 1917, approved an order for 1000 “automobile-type” aircraft engines for delivery from November 1917 to mid-1918.
At the same time, "Russian Renault" put forward "a number of wishes for the assistance of the Directorate [of the military air fleet] in obtaining materials, fuel, machines, machine tools, magneto, workers, etc."
Under a previous contract for motors of the same type (approved on October 12, 1915), GVTU also provided "assistance to the plant in obtaining finished parts from France for assembling part of the ordered motors in Russia."

Please note-only ASSEMBLY of spare parts.

[Alf]

Let's go further.

In 1914-1916. factories operating in Russia provided aviation with a third of the engines it needed. Between November 1915 and November 1916, 1184 engines were delivered from France and England; from Russian factories - about 500. At the time of the highest development, Russian industry in 1916 produced 1769 aircraft (666 engines).

In Germany, in the same year, the production of aircraft reached 8182 (7823 engines), in France - 7549 aircraft and 16 engines, in Great Britain - from July 875 to February 1915 - 1917; while a third of engines for British aircraft came from France. But even such a comparison is lame, since in a significant part the Russian indicators for both engines and aircraft relate to assembly from finished parts and assemblies.
The development of aircraft engines was carried out in the laboratories and workshops of the Shipbuilding Department of the Petrograd Polytechnic Institute {644}, but the judgment of M.V. Alekseeva: “The main reason for the poor development of aviation in our country is the lack of engines. In this respect, we are helpless. We make the bodies of the apparatus, but we cannot produce their “souls” - the motors ”.

Undertook to quote, so quote to the end.

[Ryazan87]

I found the place where you quoted the quote. And it was necessary to bring it in full.

Yes, I actually did not hide it.
However, if you pay attention, the situation between 1911 and 1916 changed in some way. Although there was an acute shortage of motors, this is a fact, which is why they planned to build 1917, if I am not mistaken, large industries for 5. We even started, but it was already too late ..

[mark1]

Quote: Proxima

Over the entire period of its existence, Russia has produced as many as 50 pieces (including prototypes)

I thought the same thing, but Buchgens claims that in 1917 alone more than 1090 aircraft and 374 engines were produced. In the aircraft industry in 1917, there were 34 enterprises, 14 factories produced aircraft, 7 - motors, the rest were all sorts of magneto, propellers, skis, aircraft instruments, up to 12 people were employed in the industry ... but materials and components were supplied from abroad.

[Aviator_]

but here Buchgens claims

Are you talking about Georgy Sergeevich Byushgens, an academician? In the mid-70s, he taught us a course on flight dynamics while still a member of the core. As far as I remember, he never dealt with the history of aviation. Can you link to his statement?

[mark1]

Quote: Aviator_

As far as I remember, he never dealt with the history of aviation.

Not until the 70s, or never at all?
I give a link - "Aircraft construction in the USSR 1917-1945" in 2 books, publishing department of TsAGI 1992 Edited by G.S. Buchgens.
Chapter 1 page 17
This chapter was not written by him, but his editorial staff

[Aviator_]

Thank you. He has never really dealt with history (we have other writing authors in our office), but he always loved being an honorary general - editing.

[Alf]

This word is annoying-

materials and components were supplied from abroad.

So modestly, we release from what they send us ...

[mark1]

What was, what was. Only a stubborn admirer of autocracy and the French roll can call tsarist Russia a great industrial power. But, nevertheless, it is not worth it to speak absolutely pejoratively about the industrial capabilities of Ingushetia - not England, but not Turkey either.
All these AMO-F15, M-5, M-6, M-2 aircraft engines, the R-1 aircraft of the 20s - everything grew (and was not produced in small quantities) from there, on that base. Another thing is that the base appeared just before the collapse.

[Bar1]

yes Russia has always been ahead of everyone in discoveries / inventions, but the policy of the Republic of Ingushetia "not to let go" has done its job Russia has lagged behind in technology and industry. But!
-the first aircraft Mozhaisky 1885.
- the first incandescent lamp Lodygin 1872
- the first arc lamp Yablochkov 1876
- internal combustion engine Kostovich 1877
-first welding of Slavyanov and Bernados 1882
-Radio Popov 1896
- caterpillar track Blinov 1878. endless rails.
- three-phase generator, asynchronous motor Dolivo-Dobrovolsky 1885.
- three-phase rectifier Larionov 1924.
- films for photography Boldyrev, Malakhovsky 1878-81.
-parashut-Kotelnikov 1911
-automaton Fyodorov 1916
-bulba Yurkevich - before the revolution, embodied in Normandy.
-TV Zworykin 1931
-penicillin -crustazin Ermoliev 1940g
- Sikorsky helicopter 1945 ("helicopter - Russian invention" - Sikorsky's words)
-Spaceship Korolev 1957
the first nuclear power plant, the first laser, the first computing machine — these are all our people.

[Nazar]

1. If you listen to the Author and believe in the technical perfection of Russian military equipment at the beginning of the 20th century, then the question arises - what kind of mediocrities one should be at all levels, from privates to generals and admirals, so that with such a "perfect" technology, lose clean
war against Japan?
2. Where did all this technical "perfection" go by the beginning of World War I? Until 1, not a single internal combustion engine was built in Russia, and as a result, both the RI's allies and opponents created tens of thousands of combat aircraft, and only a few hundred were built in RI, with imported engines. There is no need to talk about the creation of tanks, several armored cars were built, and those based on cars, of course, with imported engines.

[vladcub]

In fact, by the beginning of WWI, RI had the largest air fleet in the world, but the absence
The internal combustion engine did not allow to consolidate the superiority.
The Russian Black Sea Fleet includes a rescue vessel: "Kommuna", the former "Volkhov", built over a century ago and the metal has not rusted. There are no more such "long-livers" anywhere

[north 2]

Quote: vladcub

In fact, by the beginning of WWI, RI had the largest air fleet in the world, but the absence
The internal combustion engine did not allow to consolidate the superiority.
The Russian Black Sea Fleet includes a rescue vessel: "Kommuna", the former "Volkhov", built over a century ago and the metal has not rusted. There are no more such "long-livers" anywhere

For "Communa" in the Putilovsky plant, open-hearth steel was processed by bluing. This is why the Kommuna hull is so corrosion resistant. Can you imagine what kind of work it is to process all the sheets of steel for the hull of such a huge ship by bluing.
And further. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion, in those days when the "Commune" was being built, in my opinion, then there were no open-hearth furnaces at the Putilov plant. The closest open-hearth furnaces from St. Petersburg were then in Sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod and in Yuzovka, in today's Donetsk.
So this open-hearth steel for the Kommuna still had to be delivered to St. Petersburg. However, I may be wrong about the lack of open-hearth furnaces at the Putilov plant ..

[vladcub]

Vic Nick should be asked about open-hearth furnaces: he is a metallurgist + knows everything, or almost everything

[Fitter65]

Quote: vladcub

In fact, by the beginning of WWI, RI had the largest air fleet in the world, but the absence
The internal combustion engine did not allow to consolidate the superiority.

I just don't know if they can cry with laughter, if they just laugh.

The aircraft of the German Armed Forces was the second largest aircraft in the world at the beginning of the First World War. It numbered about 220-230 aircraft.

so what's next

By the beginning of the war, the entire British Air Force was organizationally consolidated into the Royal Flying Corps, divided into naval and army branches. In 1914, the RFC consisted of 5 squadrons, totaling about 60 vehicles.

and here it is the great Russian Empire.

At the start of World War I, the Russian Empire had the smallest air fleet in the world of 36 aircraft.

[Alf]

Quote: vladcub

In fact, by the beginning of WWI, RI had the largest air fleet in the world, but the absence
The internal combustion engine did not allow to consolidate the superiority.

Everything is the same .. Most of the planes, but there are no motors for them.
Especially "wonderful" such a state was seen on the example of Ilya Muromets, who almost did not have boards with the same motors. And if you remember that during the war, engines from downed German airships were installed on IM ...

[vladcub]

"from shot down German derezables" ICEs, and even more so aviation in the Republic of Ingushetia before WWII did not have.
Although aircraft engines appeared after WWI. They talked about this even in the program: "I Serve the Soviet Union." I read from Yakovlev that aircraft engines were bad. Read the book: "The Purpose of Life"

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Nazar

what mediocrity you need to be at all levels, from rank and file, to generals and admirals, in order with such a "perfect" technique, to lose outright
war against Japan?

Technology has nothing to do with it. Just got it right with preparation and "mobilization"
During the entire war, the Russian fleet never even had parity - it fought all battles in the minority. Here the question remains open why, before the war, it was necessary to send Sisoi and Navarin to the Baltic ... - so that in a year they could drive back with finally killed cars. In PA, they would be much more useful than in the 2nd TOE

[Alf]

Quote: Trapper7

Here the question remains open why, before the war, it was necessary to send Sisoi and Navarin to the Baltic ... -

And there were repair plants in the Far East? At least one?

[vladcub]

The question about repair plants is very interesting.
In my opinion, it was only before the war that they began to build something

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Alf

Quote: Trapper7

Here the question remains open why, before the war, it was necessary to send Sisoi and Navarin to the Baltic ... -

And there were repair plants in the Far East? At least one?

Did not have. Did they manage to undergo normal repairs on the Baltic Sea?

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Nazar

opponents created combat aircraft in tens of thousands

For this, the crazy adherents of lost Russia like Olgovich have an argument like something was built there and would have been built sometime, and in general the wise emperor made it so that the eastern front was not the main one, so it didn’t hurt your soulless planes and I wanted to.

[SERGE ANT]

iron is not to blame. And people are not to blame, those who served the iron. The fault is those who drew plans on maps and paper, and suffered giddiness from successes in foreign policy, while underestimating the enemy.

I agree. It wasn't about the bobbin!

[Revolver]

And in the cockpit sat the holy great martyr Nikolai Romanov, tortured by the Jews and Bolsheviks.

[Vladimir_2U]

Logistics and planning, coupled with corruption, would destroy the dreadnought fleet.

And technical backwardness!

[parusnik]

The fault is those who drew plans on maps and paper, and suffered giddiness from successes in foreign policy, while underestimating the enemy.

"Name, sister! Name!" (C) .. By the way, in 1945, the Japanese army was sufficiently equipped technically and the fighting spirit was strong. However, it took a month. Based on your logic, how would it all grow together? was, the enemy was assessed and the plans were correctly drawn on paper? The rest is on the side?

[vladcub]

The article "got lost" her place in the Opinion

[depressant]

And now, for some reason, all the articles on history are like that. As if from opinions and analysts have migrated here. The question is, why? I left there, and it got me with its tail.

[vladcub]

Lyudmila Yakovlevna, they probably missed you.?
If it's no joke then. There are very few good authors on the site and their absence is filled with such, with the permission to say "historians"

[depressant]

We missed you ... There and without me there are a lot of those who are capable of loudly yelling "How long!" )))
Although, zahazhivaya to read, and I read there, put the likes, I noticed that the number of those who vomit out of themselves "How long!" noticeably diminished. Maybe summer, vacation. Maybe tired of futile attempts to change something for the better. The paradigm is not built in our minds. The future can only be assessed if the vector is clear. But he is in a fog, and life ... It passes! And in the given conditions of covid life, for many, it passes unfairly quickly. And then the saying comes to mind - you can't break a butt with a whip. We are human material, alive, sickly and tired))))

[vladcub]

Probably all together

[Gvardeetz77]

That is why I read more and more Warspot, although history is no longer considered in a strategic aspect, in a tactical one, but the articles are imbued with love for their work, especially about WWII, where archival documents of the warring parties are cross-checked. In general, the professionalism there is unlike the local Irishkas F. and the like.

[Undecim]

Yes, there has not been an outline of such a high degree of uryapatriotism and such a level of primitivism on the site for a long time. The article is clearly designed to organize the next holivar, since its informational value is negligible.
The author begins to obtain information from the finger "in the first lines of his letter", citing a quote from Lenin's article "The Fall of Port Arthur", which has nothing to do with describing the level of technical development of the Russian Empire.
Strangely, for those wishing to refute the thesis of "backward Russia" there is something to argue for their position.
It would be foolish to deny that at the beginning of the XNUMXth century Russian science and technology gave a number of great names in various branches of knowledge and made a worthy contribution to the treasury of world culture. Russian scientists and inventors actively worked in the field of geology, metallurgy, oil refining, the theory of resistance of materials, soil science, electrical engineering, radio communications and in other important areas of scientific and technical activity. Major advances were made in mathematics, physics, mechanics.
That is, we can say not that Russia lacked achievements in the field of science and technology, but that the state, for certain reasons, was unable to realize the existing potential.
However, for some reason the author submits a complete nonsense, demonstrating anything but Russia's successes in the field of science and technology.
The power plant of the battleship "Rostislav" cannot be classified as an advanced achievement. Firstly, it turned out to be more than 300 tons heavier. than it was designed (1600 tons instead of 1300), secondly, oil heating, introduced on four of eight boilers, suffered from such a number of "childhood diseases" that a special commission chaired by His Imperial Highness Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich issued a conclusion: "with oil heating on the courts have many issues that are still not resolved in a positive sense. The Commission, without denying that most of the shortcomings can be eliminated, finds that before introducing oil heating on the aforementioned ships, all its shortcomings should be eliminated.
The very oil heating system on the battleship was dismantled in 1905.
About Lutskiy oil engines and steam turbines - examples are even more unfortunate, since Boris Grigorievich Lutskiy designed and built his internal combustion engines in Germany due to the lack of the necessary production base in Russia, and "the turbine destroyer Karolina disguised as a yacht is a former British experimental turbine vessel Carolina, built at the Yarrow Shipbuilders and purchased by the maritime department in order to familiarize with the design and operating experience of steam turbines, which at that time did not exist in the Russian Empire at all.
Well, about the successes in aviation on the example of balloons - this is generally a gem, as well as the fact that the presence of rangefinders on battleships is a sign of technical excellence.
The only thing that the author managed to demonstrate with his article very clearly is disrespect for the reader.

[Ryazan87]

At the same time, it should be noted that technical lag does not belong to the key problems that led to the defeat in the Russo-Japanese war. I remember one funny incident. Exponential:
".... from a telegram from Captain Zhukovsky, the commander of the Electric Cliff battery, sent to the Artillery Committee in February or March 1904, with a request to explain why sailors from the same cannon shoot 10 miles (" Peresvet ") or 8,5 ("Victory"), and he cannot shoot more than 6 miles, since the elevation angle, although it corresponds to 25 °, as on Pobeda, cannot be given more than 15 °, since then the cannon will hit with the breech part into the platform that serves for loading the cannon. This was answered from St. Petersburg: "Read §16 instructions for handling this gun", and indeed, when we read §16, we learned that when shooting at elevation angles greater than 15 °, this platform should be taken away altogether, for which purpose unscrew four nuts and give four bolts connecting it to the installation. " I didn’t take it in. It’s necessary to write directly to St. Petersburg, to the Art Committee, so that 4 nuts can be unscrewed.

[smaug78]

Looks like a historical anecdote. Yes, and memoirs are an imprecise matter, so that they can be trusted unconditionally.

[vladcub]

It is a masterpiece. Didn't bother to look into the instructions!
Although Stepanov positively showed the battery of "Electric Cliff" and its composition.

[Senior seaman]

The topic can be continued for a long time

I beg you, don't!
I myself do not like categorical statements about a gloomy and backward Russia, but this is just some kind of sur.

[Catfish]

“Enlisted in the fleet on November 19, 1904, this ship became the world's first balloon-borne cruiser. His weapons were one spherical balloon, four kite and four signal balloons. However, due to technical problems caused by the tight timeframe of the conversion work, the ship turned out to be incapable of a long ocean voyage: it was not included in the squadron sent to the Far East and was soon sold. "

If they sold it almost immediately, then why did they even buy a steamer and convert it into an auxiliary cruiser?

[Shiden]

You know, there is such a proverb “They don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”. "Rus" was bought by Count Stroganov and handed over to the fleet at the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War and even before the monetary contributions for strengthening the fleet began to arrive.

[Catfish]

Very interesting, Vitaly. Thank you. It is good to know that the count was known not only for his gastronomic delights.
I, in general, had in mind the expediency of finding such a ship in the Russian fleet. It turns out that he was not really needed, since they immediately wrote off.

[Shiden]

This is a controversial issue if Rozhdestvensky was not afraid of public censure, he would have given permission to the Ural commander to drown the signals of the Japanese reconnaissance ship and drown it, and probably there was no Tsushima either. Just because Admiral Togo was looking for a needle in a haystack. So it was simple at that time, as it were, not to understand the use of new types of warfare at sea, because submarines were then perceived as exotic and did not know how to apply until the First World War began.

[Catfish]

I agree with you that often the design idea is ahead of the military one. As an example, the British came up with a tank, and the Germans came up with the idea of ​​proper use and creation of tank troops much later.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Shiden

if Rozhdestvensky was not afraid of public censure, he would have given permission to the Ural commander to drown the signals of the Japanese reconnaissance ship and drown it

Understood in "Gangut" and on Tsushima. "Ural" did not have the physical ability to drown out the radio signals of the Japanese - for the "long-range" radio station of the "Ural" operated in a lower frequency range.
Between the RYAV and PMV in the Baltic, an intra-squadron communication system was created on the basis of low-power HF radio stations that operated outside the range of the main radio equipment of the ships of the fleet. During the exercises, this intra-squadron communication could not be drowned out even by an order of magnitude more powerful transmitters of armored cruisers.

[Aviator_]

Between the RYAV and PMV in the Baltic, an intra-squadron communication system was created on the basis of low-power HF radio stations, working outside the range of the main radio equipment ships of the fleet. During the exercises, this intra-squadron communication could not be drowned out even by an order of magnitude more powerful transmitters of armored cruisers.

Alexey, then there were only spark transmitters, and the spark gives a broadband signal, it shines in all ranges. Maybe what I don’t understand?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Aviator_

Alexey, then there were only spark transmitters, and the spark gives a broadband signal, it shines in all ranges. Maybe what I don’t understand?

From the discussion of the 2018 article on the first steps of electronic warfare:

Quote: Alexey RA

Right. But the maximum radiation was all the same (it was determined by the antenna) - and at the Ural it was shifted to the region of the DW.
It was not in vain that I cited an example after the BF exercises at Essen, when transmitters with a total power of 5 kW could not crush a "baby" of 100 W - because only a small part of their radiation fell into its range.
By the way, EMNIP, the presence of a certain range of spark transmitters already been in the simpsons It was discussed at one time on Tsushima.

[Aviator_]

Thank you. Somehow I didn't think about the influence of the antenna size.

[vladcub]

I have not heard this

[Alf]

Quote: Shiden

if Rozhdestvensky was not afraid of public censure

By whom is the blame? And public? Are you saying that the squadron commander who gave the order in a combat situation can be censured by someone? Did you understand what you said?
Or did Rozhestvensky know in advance that his squadron would be drowned and planned in advance for himself the way of excuses in the future tribunal?

[Shiden]

Vasily, you just judge as a man of the 21st century, and at the beginning of the 20th, if Rozhdestvensky did not step into battle, but simply brought the squadron to Vladivostok, he would simply be made the culprit in all the failures of that war. For example, the squadron of the North, after all, you probably don't know who even gave the order to go to Cuba, but you know the name of the admiral who lost the battle. And note, both admirals, according to the memoirs of contemporaries and documents, perfectly understood that they were assigned tasks that were not feasible.

[Alf]

Quote: Shiden

but would simply bring the squadron to Vladivostok, he would simply be made the culprit in all the failures of that war

Are you sure that in such a case, failures would have happened?
Once again, the Admiral commands a squadron going to war, which will then not worry him, his task is to win.

[Shiden]

I will answer you with the proverb "Victory has many fathers and always an orphan in defeat" if you understand the meaning of the proverb. And I say this from my own experience.

[Alf]

Quote: Shiden

I will answer you with the proverb "Victory has many fathers and always an orphan in defeat" if you understand the meaning of the proverb. And I say this from my own experience.

I understand, a conversation between a mute and a deaf.

[Shiden]

Quote: Alf

Quote: Shiden

but would simply bring the squadron to Vladivostok, he would simply be made the culprit in all the failures of that war

Are you sure that in such a case, failures would have happened?
Once again, the Admiral commands a squadron going to war, which will then not worry him, his task is to win.

I always wonder where people who are cut off from the realities of the world come from, because the comments show that you probably got a military education and you know for sure that the superior is above the boss who receives commands from the superior boss. And the world is so arranged that the glory of the winner goes to the superior but defeat is nothing.

[27091965]

"The most submissive report of the State Comptroller" addressed to "Father Tsar" to help the author. I will not even give examples from this report, after reading them the author learns about "great technological progress" who was at that time in Russia and at what level we were in this matter.

[Luty]

Any sample of equipment, including weapons, made in a single sample and not brought to serial development. This is just a concept with a lot of childhood illnesses, and they are corrected already in the course of mass production. To come up with this one thing, but to bring to mind another. And so it can be argued that the X-ray was invented in Russia, because John Vasilyevich told the boyars that I can see right through you.

[Alf]

Quote: Luty

for Ioann Vasilievich told the boyars that I can see right through you.

And he also invented a blowjob, as in a joke, I ..., into your mouth ...

[Luty]

Well, you've already vulgarized everything. Although this is now in trend))))

[Alf]

Quote: Luty

Well, you've already vulgarized everything. Although this is now in trend))))

This is not

now

, this is an old anecdote, although Peter the Great figured in it.

[Luty]

In the joke of my youth, John Vasilievich)))))

[Daniil Konovalenko]

"... Progressive, advanced Asia has dealt an irreparable blow to backward and reactionary Europe ... The return of Port Arthur by Japan is a blow dealt to all reactionary Europe."

... The author, read several times, this passage, did not find a word about the technical backwardness of the Russian Empire. And then, let's be frank, RI did not realize the powerful scientific and technical potential that it had at that time. You consider individual moments, mixing them into a whole. For schoolchildren, such an article may be suitable.

[Alf]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

RI did not realize the powerful scientific and technical potential that it had at that time.

It can be realized if there is something, but with the RUSSIAN industry, and even high-tech in the Republic of Ingushetia, there was, to put it mildly, byada.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

So that's the point.

[Time traveller]

"The Russia of the plow and flail, the water mill and the hand-loom began to quickly turn into the Russia of the plow and thresher, the steam mill and the steam loom. There is not a single branch of the national economy subordinated to capitalist production, in which there was no such complete transformation of technology." ... (c) V. I. Lenin. PSS, vol. 3, p. 597-598

[Fitter65]

.. 40 cables - these are modern "inventions", in those days a fight and 30 was considered unlikely - far away.

Cable is 0.1 nautical miles, 10 cable is 1 mile 30 cable is 3 miles. 1 nautical mile 1852 meters, respectively 3 miles is 5556 meters. If you look at the characteristics of the 305-mm gun of the Obukhov plant, which was adopted by the Russian Imperial Navy in 1895, we will see that the armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of the 1895 model are at 14640 meters, which is 2,6 more than 30 cables = 3 miles.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Fitter65

If you look at the characteristics of the 305-mm gun of the Obukhov plant, which was adopted by the Russian Imperial Navy in 1895, we will see that the armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of the 1895 model are at 14640 meters, which is 2,6 more than 30 cables = 3 miles.

Shoot и to fall - these are different things.
With the same success, you can look at the characteristics of a three-line rifle, the firing range of which exceeds 2 km. Shall we conduct aimed fire from a rifle at 2 km (with an open sight)?

[Fitter65]

Quote: Alexey RA

With the same success, you can look at the characteristics of a three-line rifle, the firing range of which exceeds 2 km. Shall we conduct aimed fire from a rifle at 2 km (with an open sight)?

Don't you confuse anything with a tram handle? ..

Quote: Alexey RA

Shooting and shooting are two different things.

With normal preparation and support, you can hit at maximum range. And again, if we look at the characteristics of the three-line, then for which relative of cabbage, in 1907, the firing range of this gun with a high-explosive and armor-piercing projectile was increased to 23997 meters, if the maximum you are capable of it 5556 meters = 3 miles = 30 cables. And the shells of the 1911 model at an elevation angle of 45 degrees generally flew 25880, and this despite the fact that we shoot at a maximum of 3 miles? In short, your comparison is not entirely successful. By the way, a high-explosive projectile of the 1928 model generally flew 29264 meters ... Of course, not a three-line, but for something it was sent to such a distance, and if it flew there, and this is not a cartridge from a three-line, this is an expensive thing and it should justify your flight, but not at 5556 meters.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Fitter65

And you are not confused with a tram handle? ..

Not. I'm just hinting. that the maximum and effective firing range can be quite different.
In addition, the maximum firing range in general may be a side effect of increasing the initial velocity of the projectile to increase armor penetration.

Quote: Fitter65

And again, if we look at the characteristics of the three-line, then for which relative of cabbage, in 1907 year increased the firing range of this gun with a high-explosive and armor-piercing projectile to 23997 meters, if the maximum you can do is 5556 meters = 3 miles = 30 cables. And the shells sample xnumx of the year at an elevation angle of 45 degrees, they generally flew 25880, and this despite the fact that we shoot at a maximum of 3 miles?

Let me remind you of the original thesis:

Let's say the Borodinians went into battle with two rangefinders, Barr and Stroud each. There were, and about 40 cables - these are modern "fabrications", in those times battle and 30 was considered unlikely - far away.

1907 and 1911 are far from 1904-1905. The bloody lessons of the RYAV are received and learned. Someone in the early 10s of the last century had already learned to shoot at 80-100 kbt.

Quote: Fitter65

By the way, the high-explosive projectile of the 1928 model of the year generally flew 29264 meters ...

1928 is very far from the RYAV. And the shells of the 1928 model were intended for the ZhDAU TM-2-12, which were part of the coastal defense with its epic horizontal-base rangefinders with multi-centimeter bases.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Alexey RA

1907 and 1911 are far from 1904-1905

In 1895, the range was 14640 meters, but the abilities and skills were only enough for shooting in line of sight ...

[Luty]

From Mosinka 2 km. If only with the help of the Almighty!

[Alf]

Quote: Luty

From Mosinka 2 km. If only with the help of the Almighty!

If only the crowd standing still and not the first time.

[Luty]

It's still a question of what kind of crowd)))

[Alf]

Quote: Luty

It's still a question of what kind of crowd)))

Well, yes.

[Time traveller]

The failure of the "Russian blitzkrieg" in 1914 was due, paradoxically, to the technical superiority of the Russian army over the enemy ... a few days after the start of the war, the Germans and Austrians managed to establish radio intelligence, that is, wiretapping and then decryption of radio communications that were conducted between the headquarters of the Russian army. Therefore, they, as a rule, were aware of the location of the Russian units and the plans of their headquarters ... This was indicated by the former head of Russian intelligence and counterintelligence during the First World War, General N.S. Batyushin ... and Austrian generals ... as Ronge writes, the use of radio communications in the Austrian army was significantly less than in the Russian.

(c) The failed "Russian blitzkrieg" 1914

[Black lotos]

Development has always been going on and that period was no exception.
The results of this development did not lead to a victory over Japan and are called lagging.
Capitalist Russia at the beginning of the 20th century had a low start before Europe. And there was a lot to make up for. Japan was also not very developed then ...
The difference was not so obvious - in the Eastern War, there was much more difference. But RYAV the reasons for the defeats were not the backwardness of technology. Moreover, much was purchased from advanced countries.

[Dart2027]

If the mythology of the Soviet regime that before the revolution Russia was backward, illiterate, etc. corresponded to reality, then no industrialization in the 20s-30s could exist in principle. Just because in a couple of years you cannot jump from the Middle Ages to the new time. The leader of the Republic of Ingushetia was not - a fact, but she was not a third world country either - a fact.

[Chack wessel]

Quote: Olgovich

And it was he who, as part of the world's first AUG, struck the first Perlharbor strike on Zonguldak, Russian naval aviation bombed Istanbul, Bosphorus, Trebizond, Varna, Riza, Rumelia, Sinop, etc.

And did the RI naval aviation bomb a lot? :) As for aviation in general, look at the production of airplanes in different countries during WWI and compare with the release in RI. And cry over the Russia We Lost. :)
P.S. And by the way, look at what engines were installed on planes in Russia. :)

[Chack wessel]

Quote: Olgovich

an ambush, it is in my head: Russia had its own aircraft carrier fleet, and the following, practically, did not.

And yet these "next" did not learn how to weave sandals. :)

[Basarev]

If everything was so great and we were so advanced, why then did we miss the war so shamefully? And why did Stalin say that we were 50-100 years behind the advanced countries? It is not worth denying the reality: Russia was precisely that backward, one of the poorest and weakest countries, the second sick person in Europe.

[Dart2027]

Quote: Basarev

And why did Stalin say that we were 50-100 years behind the advanced countries?

Because he got the country after a civil war that destroyed everything and everyone.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Dart2027

Because he got the country after a civil war that destroyed everything and everyone.

Do you even know who Stalin was in office? From whom "did he get the country"? He didn't seem to be the crown prince. He (sorry for not a decent statement) - ELECTED in VKPb COMMUNISTS AT PARTS MEETINGS AND CONGRESS.
From 1917 to 1923, Stalin worked in the government of Lenin as the people's commissar for national affairs and in the workers 'and peasants' inspection. And from 1923 to 1941 he did not hold any posts at all in the government of the USSR. Was a deputy of the top. Council. Heh, heh ... you call it "came and got a country"?
Eh-ma! They argue, argue, but they themselves are nothing, except "the red tsar came, and then the white tsar" - neither in ..... nor in the Red Army .....
yeah ... we are definitely degrading. Rulers and tyrants are taken straight out of thin air ....

[Dart2027]

Quote: ivan2022

Do you even know who Stalin was in office? From whom "did he get the country"?

He gnawed power with his teeth by eliminating competitors. AND? How does this compare with the fact that the country was destroyed by the GW?

[ivan2022]

Quote: Dart2027

He gnawed power with his teeth by eliminating competitors. AND?

About teeth, who did you learn from? Did you sit under his bed when he was "eliminating"? And how did he specifically "eliminate"? And? And what for and what did he get from this? Offshore accounts and villas on the French Riviera?

Quote: Dart2027

How does this compare with the fact that the country was destroyed by the GW?

The country was destroyed, but that's not why Stalin "got power". Next, go back and read the post again on June 30, 2021 03:43.
It says how and why Stalin got it and what he got and what for he needed such joy to "gnaw it with his teeth" .......

[Dart2027]

Quote: ivan2022

About teeth, who did you learn from?

And you do not know where his rivals for power have gone? Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev voluntarily abandoned it? And these are the most prominent figures.

Quote: ivan2022

The country was destroyed, but this is not why Stalin "got power"

And how does that change the fact that it was destroyed?

[Nekarmadlen]

Why, then, did they miss the war so shamefully? And why did Stalin say that we were 50-100 years behind the advanced countries?

…. And what did dear comrade Stalin do in general from 14 to 17 years old? Perhaps he fought heroically at the front, like his colleague from the Third Reich)? Or maybe he worked without sparing himself in the rear (everything for the front, everything for victory). ...)? No, Mr. Dzhugashvilli was engaged in terrorist and extremist activities aimed at overthrowing the system ... If the NKD 42 were in the place of the tsarist secret police at 15-16, all the Bolsheviks and their sympathizers would be instantly shot (according to the law of wartime) ...

[Karabut Karabut]

- Comrade Stalin from 14 to 17 years old, was in exile and not at all for "terrorist-extremist activities", in European countries it was called a trade union, but in the Republic of Ingushetia the struggle to improve the situation of workers was banned, which in 1917 and backfired.
! On April 23, 1900, Iosif Dzhugashvili, Vano Sturua and Zakro Chodrishvili organized a May Day, which was attended by 400-500 workers. At the rally, among others, Joseph himself spoke. This speech was Stalin's first appearance in front of a large gathering of people. In August of the same year, Dzhugashvili participated in the preparation and conduct of a major demonstration by the workers of Tiflis - a strike in the Main Railway Workshops. Revolutionary workers took part in organizing the workers' protests: M. I. Kalinin (exiled from St. Petersburg to the Caucasus), S. Ya. Alliluyev, as well as M. Z. Bochoridze, A. G. Okuashvili, V. F. Sturua. From 1 to 15 August, up to four thousand people took part in the strike. As a result, more than five hundred strikers were arrested "
"In 1904, he organizes a grand strike of oil workers in Baku, which ended with the conclusion of a collective agreement between the strikers and industrialists."
The situation is similar to the current one. If you are fighting corruption, then you are an extremist. At the beginning of the 20th century, all developed countries of Europe had workers' representatives in parliament, as was the case in Ingushetia. Find out for yourself.
.

[Ryazan87]

Still, it should be noted that Comrade Already in August 1898, Stalin joined the Tiflis organization of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party (RSDLP), which was by no means a legal party and directly, in the very first program document (Manifesto), declared, in particular: "... The Russian proletariat will throw off the autocracy is yoked with all the more energy to continue the struggle against capitalism and the bourgeoisie until the complete victory of socialism. " This, it must be admitted, is already somewhat broader than the trade union struggle. Further, the first revolution - the purchase and transportation of weapons, the organization of combat squads. Regarding the famous Tiflis expropriation - a dark matter, I agree.
Total:
- membership in an illegal political organization (and, from a certain point - in the leadership), planning the seizure of state power by violent means;
- organization of illegal rallies and meetings, organization of appropriate campaigning, issuing leaflets, writing texts;
- use of forged documents;
- violation of the requirements of the police, escape from public supervision;
- illegal acquisition and transportation of weapons, organization of illegal armed groups;
- direct participation in an attempt to seize state power (the first Russian revolution);
- robbery with murders (Tiflis expropriation) - but here its role is controversial, so for the sake of purity it can be excluded.
It all fits into the modern definition of extremism, if you take 114-FZ.

RI, the struggle to improve the situation of workers was banned

I do not think that this is the correct wording, see the factory legislation of the Russian Empire.
- the law of June 1, 1882 "On minors working in factories, factories and manufactories";
- the law of June 3, 1885 "On the prohibition of night work by minors and women in factories, plants and manufactories" (it was later, however, changed and not in favor of the workers);
- Law of 1886 "Rules on the mutual relations of factory owners and workers";
- The law of March 14, 1894 "On the transformation of factory inspection and the posts of provincial mechanics and on the extension of the rules on the supervision of the establishments of factory industry and on the mutual relations of factory owners and workers";
- Law of June 2, 1897 "On the duration and distribution of working time in the establishments of the factory industry." By the way, in terms of the length of the working day (11,5 hours), oddly enough, one of the most liberal in Europe (lower in Switzerland and Austria-Hungary).
- "Rules on the remuneration of victims of accidents of workers and employees, as well as members of their families, in the enterprises of the factory, mining and mining industry."
- "On the establishment of offices for workers 'insurance", "On the establishment of the council for workers' insurance" "On the provision of workers in case of illness", "On the insurance of workers against
accidents".
We must separate the struggle to improve the material conditions of the workers, their working conditions and political demands.

At the beginning of the 20th century, all the developed countries of Europe had workers' representatives in parliament, as was the case in Ingushetia, find out for yourself.

See Labor group in the State Duma, although it should be noted that it rather positioned itself as the spokesman for the interests of the peasantry. The workers' curia also existed during the elections to the State Duma, although it was most limited in its possibilities.
Here is the composition of the deputies of the State Duma of the Republic of Ingushetia of the 1st convocation by profession:
- 121 farmers,
- 10 artisans,
- 17 factory workers,
- 14 merchants,
- 5 manufacturers and factory managers,
- 46 landlords and estate managers,
- 73 zemstvo, city and noble employees,
- 6 priests,
- 14 officials,
- 39 lawyers,
- 16 doctors,
-7 engineers,
- 16 professors and assistant professors,
- 3 gymnasium teachers,
- 14 rural teachers,
- 11 journalists
- 9 persons of unknown occupation.

By the way, there will be 2 workers in the State Duma of the 32nd convocation, while in the State Duma of the 3rd convocation there will be fewer workers. But there were.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Nekarmadlen

No, Mr. Dzhugashvilli was engaged in terrorist and extremist activities aimed at overthrowing the system ...

As for terrorism, Stalin is a legend invented by gentlemen with non-Russian surnames already during our "modern history" after 1991.
And in the period from 1913 to the end of 1916 he was in exile in the Turukhansk region for participating in the issues of the newspaper Pravda. Mrs. Nekarmadlen, apparently, is better informed about Stalin's activities than the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Empire and judges the necessary punishment better than the courts of the Russian Empire. WHAT TO DO ? Every commentator is a prophet and
know-it-all.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Basarev

Why, then, did they miss the war so shamefully?

Excuse me, what kind of war was "so shamefully blown through"?

[Basarev]

Both the Russian-Japanese and the First - especially offensively, lost to the losers.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Basarev

Both the Russian-Japanese and the First - especially offensively, lost to the losers.

Well, for the defeat in the First World War, special thanks must be said to the Februaryists. It was they who opened the pandora's box, which led to the collapse of the army and internal unrest.

[Murrr 27]

The bottom line is that there was absolutely no industry in Russia. Who does not know - in the book "Order in the tank forces" the figures for the consumption of art. shots in PMA. There is also a book - I can't find it, but I can't get to that computer where there is a link, about the Russian industry in WWI. So there, with the numbers, the shit with which Govnosrukhin shit is debunked (this creature, by the way, even in Vicki - he worked for 1 year in his life, without completing 2 in distribution - he realized that it did not want to work, but wanted artists to work).
And why there was no industry - because the completely degenerated nobility became mongrels, nothing, after the decree "On the meanness of the nobility" did not give the country, but ate in three throats regularly. By the way, the history of the construction of a piece of iron in Murmansk is very interesting - the mongrels have been talking about this for 20+ years, and they had to do it already in WWI. And ALL pieces of iron from America - because if the Russian industry would start making rails, then there would not be enough iron either for weapons (they did something for themselves), or for shells.
And what are the single attempts ..... I think they were in Brazil.
"A flock of rams under the leadership of Leo will defeat a flock of lions under the command of a ram." And we were not even commanded by rams - mongrels.

[Gromovanton]

A highly controversial article in my opinion and here's why:
It is impossible to explain the defeat, for example, in the Russo-Japanese War and the First World War, only by the stupidity of the leadership. One might think to put another monarch in place, everything would be different - it would not be. The system, the system of social relations, is rotten to the very foundations.
The basis of this very political superstructure in the form of a strong economy-industry was absent.
And the fact that we had talented engineers, so who can argue with that?
The fact that they were lagging behind both in ammunition and in armament is simply the results of the war, but the fact that, like today, one copy was assembled in the garage that has no analogues in the world - well, they collected it ... The result is known. But to launch mass production, we need other competencies and a level of development. I am far from all a scavenger - many of us, as they say, are not worse than our potential partners, but we have too many dashing and optimistic statements about one that has no analogues in the world and there is very little that can be felt in marketable quantities in the troops and the economy of the country ...

[hjvtp1966]

Quote: Bar1

yes Russia has always been ahead of everyone in discoveries / inventions, but the policy of the Republic of Ingushetia "not to let go" has done its job Russia has lagged behind in technology and industry. But!
-the first aircraft Mozhaisky 1885.
- the first incandescent lamp Lodygin 1872
- the first arc lamp Yablochkov 1876
- internal combustion engine Kostovich 1877
-first welding of Slavyanov and Bernados 1882
-Radio Popov 1896
- caterpillar track Blinov 1878. endless rails.
- three-phase generator, asynchronous motor Dolivo-Dobrovolsky 1885.
- three-phase rectifier Larionov 1924.
- films for photography Boldyrev, Malakhovsky 1878-81.
-parashut-Kotelnikov 1911
-automaton Fyodorov 1916
-bulba Yurkevich - before the revolution, embodied in Normandy.
-TV Zworykin 1931
-penicillin -crustazin Ermoliev 1940g
- Sikorsky helicopter 1945 ("helicopter - Russian invention" - Sikorsky's words)
-Spaceship Korolev 1957
the first nuclear power plant, the first laser, the first computing machine — these are all our people.

It has long been known to everyone that Russians have racial superiority over other peoples - they are more inventive than all others, therefore they are superior in intelligence, won the last major war, therefore all are bold and stronger genetically. Why repeat the common knowledge?

[otto9966]

they poured water from empty to empty, they lost to the Japanese dry - it means they were still backward, compared to Japan ... I must admit,

[Petrik66]

Russia received such enchanting people that they can only be compared with the last performances of our national football team. But the author has his own truth. I was especially impressed by the opus about shells:
"Even the shells, which many consider to be the culprits of our defeats, and they carried high-tech elements - both relieving and detonating - these are all the consequences of Russian experiments. Yes, it did not work, but at the same time it was, the work was carried out in an active manner." The fact that Makarov, to put it mildly, was not up to par with his lightweight projectile and it cost the fleet very dearly - this is so, nonsense, the main thing = the experiment was, high-tech, etc. the 27/3 score speaks for itself. Losses in people: 5045 people were killed in our country and 117 people were killed in the Japanese. and shame 6016 taken prisoner from us.

[Baron pardus]

Hand face. Many of the most important elements of the submarine were purchased abroad. For example, electric motors and accumulators. And spark plugs. Although there were orders "Buy in France before, put your own, stearic". Only in Russia ... They could not provide themselves with heavy artillery and machine guns. (Italy, by the way, could). Rifles too. It is not for nothing that a project will appear during WWI, to equip every 10th soldier with a berdyshilm. Even frankly face-to-face mosinos were not enough. We bought M1895 hard drives (by the way, very good ones), Arisaki (also good ones). But, like today, the ROC CJSC opened "3 temples a day". We can talk about the Fedorov Assault Rifle, but similar experiments were done and put into service both in France and in the United States. A country with 27% literacy CANNOT beat a country with 95% literacy. Can not. I am generally silent about aircraft engines. They DIDN'T MAKE them massively in Russia from the word "Absolute". That is why the Soviet aircraft engine school had to start from scratch. It is interesting that little Denmark was able to provide itself with Madsen and offer them for export, and Russia, even under the license of Maxima, did not immediately get the hang of it. For some reason, Austria Hungary, which it is customary to laugh at, provided itself with rifles, machine guns, heavy artillery and aircraft motors. But the Russian Empire could not. Maybe something in the conservatory to correct?
In general, the activation of the crushers is not surprising. When the highest levels of the Russian government declare "our goal is Russia in the times of Nicholas II", there is nothing to be surprised at. And the activation of the crushers, and the destruction of education and industry. (So ​​that they do not ask why Ayatollah Gundyaev needs a Yacht at the price of Allie Burke, and so that other similar questions are not asked). The main thing is "more music and dancing" as Adolf Alloyzovich said. Well, the results will be the same as under Nicholas 2m - two defeats in two wars + revolution 2 + revolution 1 + civil ... Why? And because history does not teach anyone anything. Do you think South Korea, Japan and China have risen at the expense of "2 temples a day" and the desire to return to the anus where they once were? Do you think that China and Korea said "Our ideal is our country at the beginning of the 3th century"? Not.
Is a socially and scientifically backward state doomed to defeat and destruction? Want an example? India. Civilization, art, literature, poetry, everything is there. The British come and just take out the whole Empire. Do you think that the British were some kind of supermen? Super strong, super smart? Not. They just concentrated on technology and education (an illiterate soldier would ruin a rifle or a cannon). Therefore, they tore to shreds not only all kinds of mumba yumba, but also empires. And if you (and not only you) artificially lower your average level of education, technology and culture - you are khan. This was demonstrated to Russia first by the Japanese, then by the Germans and Austrians.

[Dart2027]

Quote: Baron Pardus

A country with 27% literacy CANNOT beat a country with 95% literacy. Can not.
first Japanese, then Germans and Austrians

Austria-Hungary, which the army of that country was beating so that shreds flew, in the course?

[Molot1979]

Since everything was in such a thick, thick layer of chocolate, why didn't the war end in Tokyo?

[Chief Officer Lom]

In my opinion, Russia before WWI possessed a developed science and possessed most of the technologies of that time and the potential to quickly develop the missing technologies, again thanks to advanced science. But there was no production at all. There were individual enterprises that produced quite high-quality products, both civilian and military, but in absolutely scanty quantities for our country. What were our wonderful royal authorities and the enlightened ruling class, crispy French buns doing in Baden-Baden and the Riviera? Did they give funds, invested them, or at least provided loans to expand existing industries? Everything was bought abroad, for decades hundreds of millions of gold rubles went abroad, and with this money production was expanded there and science was promoted.

[gsev]

Quote: Chief Officer Lom

In my opinion, Russia before WWI possessed a developed science and possessed most of the technologies of that time and the potential to quickly develop the missing technologies, again thanks to advanced science. But there was no production at all.

Above were listed the dubious Russian priorities in technology. Nothing is known about the control system of Mozhaisky's aircraft. If the steam engine had enough power to lift the machine off the ground, it would most likely capsize. Zvorykin developed television in the United States. That is, television was created by an American citizen. Until Edison invented the refractory filament, the light bulb was not in demand. Until Marconi implemented reliable tuning and filtering of the radio signal, radio had no practical value. The production of antibiotics was established largely thanks to intelligence and the existence until the end of the 1930s of a wide scientific exchange between the USSR and the West. The same can be said for nuclear research. Until 1940, no one in the world considered nuclear research capable of a military purpose, and states did not think to secret research in this area. The scientific takeoff in the USSR fell on the Khrushchev era, when the state security authorities cut off the allowances and limited their ability to nightmare the people.

[Chief Officer Lom]

What does Mozhaisky have to do with it? (By the way, when was his concept presented? Probably already when the progressive West was already flying on gasoline engines? No? Well, don't care.) Edison, by the way, is a typical American Bill Gates, Edison himself practically did not invent anything, appropriating the inventions of his employees and stealing ( oh, of course, without violating de facto laws) ideas of independent scientists. But I'm not talking about that, and not about the homeland of elephants. I mean that we made Russo-Balt cars in those days. But by the piece. Let's buy overseas. They built airplanes. But by the piece. And with foreign engines (and then the planes are practically the engine itself and a few sticks with canvas). But we knew how to make engines - we made several pieces ourselves. And no more, we will buy in France. We knew how to build world-class armored ships. But not enough. And many of them with foreign engines and equipment, because we made even fewer of them. The rest of the ships were ordered entirely in England, Germany, France and the USA. And so in everything. With the money spent on all this, it was possible to build many modern factories and train personnel, but practically no one was involved in this, but not because there was no opportunity, but because no one considered it necessary. As they wrote on one site - they steal abroad with profits, and our powers that be and "entrepreneurs" (I mean the times of Nicholas II, all coincidences with the present times are accidental, ha-ha) remind drunks who, in order to get a few bottles of vodka, steal a cable at the price from a half-car and leave people and production without electricity.

[TermNachTer]

"Oil boilers for 3 horsepower"))) citizens, well, you can't do that. Don't write about what you don't understand.

[mvbmvbmvb]

So, if a person with a modern education (EGE and paid !!!) reads this, in general, not bad article, then the following conclusion will be drawn. Then, once upon a time (see his education) RI won!