Changing the scenario of World War II

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The following abbreviations are used in the article: GSh - General base, Spacecraft - Red Army.

In the previous part materials were presented that allow us to draw the following conclusions:



1. The United States and Britain had their own goals in the coming war in Europe. England wanted to strengthen its position on the world stage, deal with the USSR and defeat Germany again. Therefore, the British invested moderately in the development of German industry.

The Americans have invested large sums in Germany: up to 70% of all financial receipts. Therefore, they assigned Germany a more significant role: not only to defeat the USSR, but also to help the Americans organize a new world order. This required weakening the economy and the armed forces of England and France, which held on to the old order.

US supplies to the allies would lead them back into a debt trap, and then America, destroying the Hitler regime, could take the place of the only superpower. With the rights of the strongest, the United States could dictate conditions when dividing the "Russian pie".

2. In 1939, the USSR government managed to avoid participation in the scenario of the allies: not to get involved in a war against Nazi Germany and the Anglo-French predators lurking in ambush.

3. The financial and industrial elite and the ruling circles of England and the United States surrendered Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland to Hitler. Ensured the exit of Hitler's troops to the Soviet-German border. After the defeat of Poland, Hitler did not rush to the USSR, but correctly assessed the greatest danger from the West.

4. Our government has managed to move the border in some areas to the territory of Finland and the former Poland.

5.From the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940, the Allied forces felt secure on the Western Front. They even began to prepare for the opening of a new front against the USSR in Finland and for air strikes on our targets from the southern direction.

Finland did not begin to attract allied troops for the war with the USSR, although on March 4, 1940, the American government announced its readiness to accept "Actual participation in the conflict"... On March 11, the American ambassador to Moscow notified the Finnish delegation that the United States would support the events of Britain and France in Finland. However, on March 12, a peace treaty was signed between the USSR and Finland.

6. In the spring of 1940, the Americans began to understand that the war went according to a different scenario and tried to return the situation in Europe to the pre-war borders. But all the participating countries decided to continue the war.

The allies were not afraid of Hitler and decided that they could force him to start a war with the USSR. They were also preparing to start a war with the USSR in secondary directions. After the victory, it was possible to deal with Germany.

In turn, Hitler already knew how he could defeat the Allied troops and remove the British from participation in European politics. Therefore, the envoy from the United States was told that Germany would go to peace. "Only on condition that once and for all it will be done with the desire of England to destroy Germany", that is, with the weakening of England to the level of a second-rate country. The British would never agree to this ...

German intelligence on the Western Front


In the mid-30s, the German command did not yet know the method by which they would break through the Maginot Line and the border fortifications in Belgium. The war was seen as a reflection of the battles of the Great War. In 1936, when visiting the Krupp firm, Hitler demanded the creation of a powerful weapon to destroy the fortifications of the Maginot Line and the Belgian forts, the development of which was completed the following year. The production of two 800-mm guns was to be completed in 1941. By 1941, several 600 mm mortars were also being made.

Since 1934, they began to carry out flights for photography objects of the Maginot line. In the spring and summer of 1939, the line was again photographed with all the important details: forts, infrastructure, warehouses and access roads.


The French command was convinced that the Ardennes were insurmountable for mechanized armies. Therefore, in the event of war, German mechanized groups will deliver the main blow through Central Belgium.

According to the general Pickenbrock, since 1936, the Abwehr began to pay main attention to France. Among other information, intelligence collected information about the Maginot Line. It turned out that the French transferred the construction of sections of defensive structures to private companies. In 1936, a French entrepreneur came to the Germans, offering to buy information about the fortifications that he was instructed to build.

K. Jorgensen ("Hitler's espionage machine ..."):

“During the alliance with France in 1935-1938. the Czechs had access to the system of fortifications [Maginot - approx. auth.]. These documents fell into the hands of the Germans in April 1939 ... [General W. Liss - approx. auth.] created detailed models of each fortification and conducted on them ... "study tours" for German officers. "

In the mid-30s, it was not clear how military operations in the West would proceed. The German command assumed that the French could capture part of the territory of Germany. Therefore, since 1936, a mothballed network with radio stations was created along the Oder to monitor the enemy who could occupy this part of the country.

Since 1937, a similar network of non-conscript Frenchmen has been created west of the Maginot Line. From these radio operators the necessary information was received before the German offensive in France. For a short period of time, information was not received, in connection with the eviction of the civilian population, but from the end of 1939 to the beginning of 1940. reports began to arrive regularly.

Changing the scenario of World War II

When Liss showed the map to the chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces Halder, he “I immediately discovered a flaw: this is their weak point. Here we must push through "... The Abwehr managed to find a vulnerable direction to break through the Maginot Line, but this option had two weaknesses. Detection of the enemy's reconnaissance direction of the strike and the transfer of reserves to it could put an end to the operation. Availability aviation for strikes against the mobile connections that began to be drawn into the breakthrough, could also lead to disaster.

In the diary Halder On January 21, 1940 it was written:

"Sedan - large tank strength (while keeping secret the true direction of their blow). "

The German command perfectly understood that it was necessary to hide the direction of the strike from enemy reconnaissance, and successfully completed this task.

On the other flank, the key role in bypassing the Dutch fortifications was played by the capture of bridges across the Meuse and the Rhine channels before the defenders had time to blow them up. The idea to deceive the Dutch with the help of German units disguised in Dutch uniforms belonged to Hitler.

Special services games


After the outbreak of war, Chamberlain hoped that a group of conservative German generals would take some action to overthrow "Austrian street child", but the British special services did not have access to the opposition. In October 1939, representatives of the "military opposition" were brought to the British agents in the Netherlands, in the role of which Schellenberg and a colleague acted. After a short game, both scouts on November 9 were captured and taken to Germany. The British did not understand that there was no active opposition in Germany. Therefore, before the start of the German offensive, they not only felt safe, but also believed in the presence of opposition to Hitler, which could eliminate him.

Since 1939, the British have been decrypting telegrams sent by the German headquarters using Enigma cipher machines. General Bertrand wrote in Operation Ultra:

Around the beginning of April 1940, the number of Ultra radiograms began to increase ... Many radiograms ... dealt exclusively with logistics issues ... In the last two weeks of April 1940, orders to move troops began to appear in radiograms ... and we ... received ... evidence that German ground forces and aircraft are being transferred to the western border ...

However, acquaintance with part of the German correspondence did not allow the allied command to find out the time of the start of the operation and one of the directions of strikes - in the Ardennes.

The defeat of the allied troops in France


В April 1940 Years, the allies offered the Belgian government to deploy Anglo-French contingents on its territory, but Belgium, trying to maintain neutrality, refused this offer. At the same time, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg attempted to obtain a guarantee of their neutral status from the United States, but the Americans refused.

After the refusal of the countries participating in the war from the American proposal for peace, the United States did not want to intervene in the war in Europe. In addition, a skirmish in the Benelux countries would weaken the Allied Powers. At that time, neither the United States nor the allies suspected that their defenses were a straw house ...

7 May hearings were held on the defeat in Norway. Chamberlain resigned the next day. On May 10, Churchill was appointed prime minister.

10 May the German offensive began on the Western Front. German troops invaded France, Belgium and Holland. The Dutch managed to blow up part of the bridges, but German troops were able to advance deep into the territory of the Netherlands and Belgium. 14 May the Dutch capitulated.

16 May panic reached Paris. The French government began to prepare for the evacuation, but on the same day it was canceled.

A pro-German government has been formed in Belgium.

The Americans were worried about the situation in Europe, which was spinning out of control. The President requested an additional $ 1,1 billion for defense and demanded the production of up to 50 thousand aircraft a year.

20 May there is an atmosphere of hopeless despair in England. Churchill writes to Roosevelt:

I cannot be held responsible for my successors, who, in conditions of extreme despair and helplessness, may be forced to fulfill the will of Germany ...

General Jodl wrote in his diary that Hitler remarked during the meeting:

The British can immediately get a separate peace if they give up the colonies ...

21 May Ribbentrop's representative Etzdorf reported to Halder:

"We are looking for contact with England on the basis of the division of the world."

22 May at the Operations Directorate of the US Department of War, Ridgway is preparing a note stating that Nazi uprisings in the countries of South America are possible in the changing world situation. The uprisings may be followed by the invasion of German troops. Therefore, the United States must take over the defense of South America.
President Roosevelt, General Marshall (Army Chief of Staff), Admiral Stark (Chief of Naval Operations), and Assistant Secretary of State Welles agreed with the conclusions of the note. From that moment on, Hitler began to be perceived as a threat to the United States. 23 May Roosevelt demanded that all Latin American countries hold secret military negotiations.

Gen. Bertrand:

On the morning of May 23, a radio message was intercepted and decoded. ... General von Brauchitsch ... ordered both army groups “to continue the offensive with the utmost determination in order to encircle the enemy ... This radio message convinced Churchill and Gort (chief of the General Staff - Ed. Ed.) That it was time to evacuate from France ...

The evacuation from the Dunkirk area took place from May 26 to June 4. 215 thousand British, 123 thousand French and Belgians were transported to England. All equipment and heavy weapons were abandoned in France. By giving the British the opportunity to leave France, Hitler signaled negotiations.

After the evacuation, there were 26 divisions in the British metropolis, of which only a few of them could be considered combat-ready. They were armed with 217 tanks and about 500 guns. Air defense was carried out by 7 divisions. The Air Force had 491 bombers and 446 modern fighters.

According to German intelligence, on August 12, 1940 in England (up to the Glasgow-Edinburgh line) there could be up to 28-30 divisions.


Having defeated France, Hitler was in no hurry to take up the destruction of England. He thought that after the collapse of the French, the British would surrender and perhaps join the German-Italian alliance. In this case, England should have recognized the hegemony of Germany in Europe, and she could not return the former German colonies. On June 2, Hitler said that "The time has come to get rid of Bolshevism".

26 May the US President sent a letter to the French government recommending the withdrawal of the navy from the Mediterranean via Suez and Gibraltar. Hit French fleet into the hands of Hitler was considered dangerous for the United States.
In late May, the Allies asked the United States to send warships to the Mediterranean to prevent Italy from entering the war, but the Americans refused.

10 June Italy declared war on France and England.

14 June Paris is occupied by German troops. On June 15, Churchill wrote to Roosevelt:


Churchill tells the Americans that if Britain falls, the United States will not be able to withstand Hitler's Europe and Japan. The situation seems hopeless to the British if the United States does not enter the war (with any conditions). England is saved by the fact that at this time Hitler does not know what to do with her ...

The USA seeks to prolong the British resistance longer. The possibility of excluding the falling of the British fleet and colonies into the hands of Hitler is being considered. For this, it is proposed to evacuate the British government to Canada. The United States requested Churchill's opinion on this matter.

16 June for help in repelling German aggression, the French government appeals to the United States, but is refused. The French President appoints Marshal Pétain as head of government, who on June 17 requested peace terms with Germany. On June 22, France surrendered. The only enemy of Germany was England with its dominions.

18 June... Schmidt (employee of the German Foreign Ministry, Hitler's translator) spoke about the negotiations between Hitler and Mussolini:

I was surprised to note that Hitler's attitude towards Great Britain had changed. He suddenly wondered is it good actually destroy British Empire. “Still, it is the force that maintains order in the world,” he said ...

The unexpected and lightning-fast defeat of the allied forces shows that the German special services were able to outplay the intelligence services of France, England, the United States, as well as previously defeated Poland.

Germany began to play a dominant role in Europe and achieved unprecedented power. The most rational thing was to stop, strengthen itself along the entire Mediterranean coast and develop the economy, occasionally fighting off attacks from British aviation and navy. But Hitler, believing in his army and intuition, began to incline to march to the East ...

Napoleon did the same ... Having an enemy in the person of England, he also invaded the vastness of Russia, where he lost his huge and strong army ...

At the crossroads


24 June Churchill sent a message to Stalin, which contained a veiled proposal to enter the war against Germany. Such a proposal did not meet the interests of our country, since the British had already betrayed their allies, they were preparing to attack the USSR and bomb our facilities. Under the blow of the German troops, they were helpless, abandoned their equipment, fled to the island and there were left alone at the "broken trough".

It was unacceptable for the USSR to save the British by throwing millions of Soviet citizens into the furnace of the war.

K. Jorgensen:

[In June 1940 took place - Approx. author] conversation between the Swedish ambassador Pritz and the assistant secretary ... Butler.
Making it clear that Britain would fight, Butler ... remarked that the government would do everything possible to achieve a peace treaty acceptable to both sides with Germany ... The possibility of a peace treaty exists, but the very idea of ​​"peace at any cost" is unacceptable to England.
Later, some members of parliament hinted to the ambassador that negotiations should begin on June 28, as soon as Churchill is replaced as prime minister by Foreign Minister Halifax. Churchill's intervention put an end to these maneuvers ...

27 June Roosevelt declares a state of emergency in the country and enacts the Espionage Act of 1917 to control the movement of ships in his territorial waters and around the Panama Canal.

30 June USA handed over to England a batch of obsolete weapons: 895 field guns, 22 thousand machine guns, 55 thousand machine guns and 500 thousand rifles. The British government is preparing to evacuate to Canada.

July 2 Hitler gave instructions to study the possibilities of landing in England, and on July 16 ordered to begin preparations for the invasion. He was confident that the news of military preparations for the invasion would frighten the British and persuade them to negotiate peace.

July 11 Grand Admiral Raeder reported to Hitler that the invasion of the island should be considered as a last resort and with complete air superiority.

In the directive from July 16 1940 the year it was noted:

Great Britain, despite its hopeless military situation, has not yet given any signs of readiness for negotiations. I decided to prepare a landing operation against England and, if necessary, carry it out. The task of this operation is to destroy the British state as a base for the continuation of the war against Germany ...

In all actions of Germany in Europe, the leadership of the country and the Wehrmacht received comprehensive intelligence information. When planning the landing in England, the problem came to light that there were few German agents on its territory. Therefore, there was not enough information about British troops, fortifications, and industry. Because of this, the planning of the landing of German troops on the island, Admiral Canaris regarded as a kind of madness.

July 19 in the Reichstag, Hitler declared:

To clear my conscience, I must once again call for prudence in England. I believe I can do this because I speak not as someone who has been defeated and is now making a request, but as a winner. I see no reason why it is necessary to continue this struggle ...

Such a meaningless and purely rhetorical statement could not have an effect on the sober British, who continued to strengthen their armed forces.

July 21 General Marx began working on the initial plan for the war between Germany and the USSR, which was developed by August 5. To participate in the war with the USSR, 147 divisions were allocated, of which 44 were in the second echelon. The calculation was carried out based on the presence of 170 divisions in the spacecraft. Field marshal general Paulus:

At the end of July 1940, Hitler informed the headquarters of the operational leadership of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, as well as the commander-in-chief of the three branches of the armed forces, that he does not exclude the possibility of a campaign against the Soviet Union, and gave instructions to begin preliminary preparations ...

The GSh perceived Hitler's intentions with ambivalent feelings. He saw in the campaign against Russia a dangerous fact of opening a second front, and also considered it possible and probable that the United States would enter the war against Germany. He believed that Germany would be able to resist such a grouping of forces only if it had time to quickly defeat Russia.

However, Russia's strength was a large unknown quantity. It was believed that operations are possible only during good times of the year. This meant that there was little time left for them. The General Staff considered it his task to determine the operational, material and human capabilities and their boundaries ...

In July 9 formations are being transferred to the Soviet-German border, bringing the German grouping in East Prussia and former Poland to 17 divisions. According to German intelligence, in the Western border region of the USSR (west of the line Arkhangelsk - Kalinin - Poltava - Western coast of Crimea) there could be about 113-123 divisions.



A significant number of spacecraft divisions did not frighten Hitler and the German command that the USSR could launch an invasion.

Halder (22.07.1940 g.):

“Stalin is flirting with England in order to force her to continue the war and thereby fetter us in order to have time to seize what he wants to seize, but will not be able to, if peace comes. He strives to ensure that Germany does not become too strong. However, there are no signs of an active Russian action against us. no... »

Jorgensen:

The attempts of the Swedes to promote the reconciliation of the parties continued in July. July 26-28 Goering met with Dahlerus, who was supposed to involve the Swedish king Gustov V to create a channel for negotiations with Britain. The British answer was unequivocal: no peace talks will not be with Hitler under any circumstances.

July 31 At a meeting with the leaders of the High Command of the Ground Forces, Hitler was informed that it was almost impossible to start a landing in England this year, but he still sets the task of preparing the invasion by September 15.

Hitler outlined his views on the war with the USSR:

The hope of England is Russia and America. If hope for Russia collapses, America will also fall away from England ...
If Russia is defeated, England will lose its last hope. Then Germany will dominate in Europe and the Balkans.
Conclusion: Russia must be liquidated ...
The beginning of the campaign is May 1941. The term for the operation is 5 months ...

Air operation


Before the war, Air Chief Marshal Dowding created an air defense system for England. The territory was divided into groups, which were divided into sectors. Enemy aircraft were detected by a chain of radars and a thousand observation posts along the coast. In the control center, the operators, having received messages from the observation posts, put on the map counters with the type of aircraft, their number and flight altitude. Groups of fighters were sent to intercept targets.

1 of August Hitler signed Directive No. 17:

In order to create the prerequisites for the final defeat of England, I intend to wage an air and naval war against England in a more acute form than until now.
For this I order:
1. The German Air Force with all the means at their disposal to destroy the British aviation as soon as possible. To direct raids primarily against flight units, their ground service and communications equipment; further - against the military aviation industry, including the industry for the production of the material part of anti-aircraft artillery ...

2 of August German planes scattered leaflets over southern England proposing a peace.

8 of August the British intercepted Goering's telegram on the conduct of Operation Adler by units of the 2nd, 3rd and 5th air fleets. Telegrams were intercepted constantly, and in England they knew: where the units of the fleets were located, what forces they had, when and what forces would participate in the raids, what tactics would be used, etc.

Since the German aviation during the air operation did not solve the task assigned to it, the battle over Britain won the British.

There are many reasons for the defeat of German aviation in various sources. The author would note only one thing: the loss of time between the defeat of the allied forces and the beginning of the air operation allowed the British command to prepare for the battle, replenishing the units with aircraft and pilots, and also creating the corresponding reserves.

Single-engine fighters proved to be the most effective in air battles: Me-109, Spitfires and Hurricanes. In the period from July to October 1940, about 688 Me-109s were produced in Germany. At the same time, 2116 British fighters were produced. Additionally, 211 fighters were delivered from Canada and 232 from the USA. In an air war lasting several months, the Germans had no chance of winning ...

Article I. Shikhova “Battle of Britain. Statistical analysis" numerous data are given. They are somewhat different from each other, but the author explains their difference. Using some data from this article, a scheme for changing the number of serviceable single-engine fighters is presented. It can be seen that the British Air Force, having held out for the first three weeks, were able to snatch victory from the Goering pilots ...


During the Battle of Britain, the preparations for the amphibious operation were monitored. General Bertrand wrote:

on September 7 readiness for invasion was announced; this meant that a German invasion could be expected within 1 hours. Troops and detachments of local defense were brought to a state of immediate readiness ... The barges still remained in their ports ... on September 10 the blessed rain fell, and the sky was covered with clouds. This weather persisted for four days ...
In the morning on September 17 [a radiogram received at the German headquarters - Approx. ed.], in which it was said that Hitler allowed to dismantle devices for loading aircraft at Dutch airfields ... [This meant that - Approx. auth.] the threat of invasion is over...

Reorientation to the East


According to the memoirs of General Bentivegni:

In August 1940 ... [Canaris - Approx. Auth.] informed me that Hitler had begun to carry out measures to carry out a campaign to the East ... In November 1940, he received an order from Canaris to intensify counterintelligence work in the places of concentration of German troops on the German-Soviet border ...

General Pickenbrock:

"From August to September 1940, the Foreign Armies of the East department of the General Staff of the Ground Forces significantly increased the tasks of the Abwehr concerning the USSR ... More precisely, I learned about the date of the German attack in January 1941 ..."

Since August 1940, about 80% of the personnel, financial and material-technical potential of the Abwehr has been used against the USSR. On the territory of Poland, 95 reconnaissance and crossing points were organized. From January 1940 to March 1941, the counterintelligence agencies of the USSR uncovered 66 German intelligence stations and exposed 1596 agents.

In the developed plan "Barbarossa", the direction of the main attack was determined:

The theater of military operations is divided by the Pripyat bogs into northern and southern parts. The direction of the main attack should be prepared north of the Pripyat swamps... Two army groups should be concentrated here ...

To misinform Soviet intelligence, it was required to show that the direction of the main attack would be on South... In the materials for the intelligence service (September 6, 1940) it was said:

Regrouping in Russia should by no means give the impression that we are preparing an offensive to the East.

At the same time, Russia must understand that there are strong and combat-ready German troops in the general government, in the eastern provinces and in the protectorate, and from this draw the conclusion that we are ready at any moment and with sufficiently powerful forces to protect our interests in the Balkans against the Russian interventions ...

Give the impression that the main direction in our movements is shifted to the southern regions General Governorship, to the Protectorate and Austria, and that the concentration of troops in the north is relatively low...

Part 1 it was shown that the German special services fulfilled their task of misinforming the leadership of the spacecraft and the USSR.

Events in the fall of 1940


on September 2 The United States signed an agreement on military cooperation with Britain, which provided for the supply of American weapons and 50 warships. In return, the British leased 99 naval and air bases in North and South America for 8 years.

on September 4 - The US Ambassador to Tokyo visited the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs and announced the US interest in maintaining the status quo in the Far East. On the same day, Churchill made a similar statement in the House of Lords.

K. Jorgensen:

The Swedish agent of influence Ekeberg conveyed a German proposal to the British ambassador on September 5.09.1940, 19, which was rejected by the ambassador. On September XNUMX, Churchill's secretary wrote in his diary that the enemy continues to seek ways to peace negotiations, and not only in Sweden. All suggestions of this kind were the British rejected.


on September 27 - the Tripartite Pact was signed between Germany, Italy and Japan.

12 October a directive was issued to postpone Operation Sea Lion until the spring of 1941.

23 October a meeting between Hitler and Franco took place. The issue of Spain's accession to the Axis countries was discussed. According to the memoirs of the translator Schmidt, Franco was ready to conclude an agreement on the conditions of supply of wheat, heavy and anti-aircraft artillery. The time of active intervention by Spain will be specified separately. Spain wanted Gibraltar and French Morocco. Ribbentrop insisted on the phrase:

Spain will receive territories from French colonial possessions to the extent that France can receive compensation from British colonial possessions "...
Logically thinking Sunier [Spanish diplomat - Approx. author] quite reasonably objected that in this case, Spain may not get anything ...

As a result, the contract was not signed.

24 October a meeting between Hitler and Pétain took place. It was also not possible to reach an agreement on the participation of France in the war with England.

Meeting in Berlin


In the fall of 1940, Moscow decided to probe the ground in relations with Hitler. On Stalin's instructions, Molotov was supposed to discuss several important issues... It was necessary to touch upon the questions of Finland, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, etc.

VM Molotov arrived in Berlin at 11:00 on November 12. At 12 o'clock, Molotov was received by Ribbentrop, and at 15 o'clock - Hitler. Discussion began on two issues that Hitler was not prepared to consider. It is unclear whether this was done on purpose or whether our government seriously thought that their demands could be implemented ... One of the questions concerned Finland, which could end in a new war with the USSR. Schmidt (Hitler's translator) wrote about these negotiations:


After a conversation with Hitler, Molotov reported to Stalin:

Today, November 13, a conversation with Hitler took place ... Both conversations did not yield the desired results. The main time with Hitler was spent on the Finnish question. Hitler said he was reaffirming last year's agreement, but Germany says it is interested maintaining peace in the Baltic Sea...


On the morning of November 14, Molotov left Berlin. It is likely that after this meeting Hitler made the final decision on the war with the USSR ...

18 November Molotov received the Japanese ambassador and confirmed to him the Soviet desire to conclude a pact of neutrality.

18 December Hitler signed Directive No. 21 on preparations for war against the USSR:

The German armed forces must be ready to defeat Soviet Russia in a short campaign even before the war against England is over ...

The development of the plan was carried out on the basis of the presence in the Western border region of up to 126 Soviet divisions and the presence of 35 divisions in the rest of the European territory of the USSR.

January 17 1941 Years Molotov expressed surprise to Schulenburg at the silence on the proposals of the USSR, expressed at the meeting with Hitler. On January 21, our ambassador was informed that Germany must coordinate a response with the allies. However, there were no consultations with the allies. Molotov asked several more times about the response of the German side.

April 18 1941 years in a conversation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Japan, Stalin regretted that in Berlin the question of the USSR's accession to the "pact of three" had not been resolved. It is difficult to say whether it was Stalin's game to gain time or not ...

Weakening England


December 17 1940 Treasury Secretary Morgenthau announced that the United States had already taken possession of most of England's gold reserves and a substantial portion of its overseas investment spent on paying American supplies in cash. England, Morgenthau said, "Scraped my barrel to the bottom", having become insolvent, and financial assistance to her in these conditions is in the interests of the United States. England could no longer compete with the Americans on the world stage.

President Roosevelt proposed a plan of financial assistance to England by providing her with weapons, raw materials and food in the form of a long-term loan and a loan (the "Lend-Lease" system). Legislation on the matter was passed by Congress March 11 1941 year.

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  1. +23
    19 June 2021 06: 17
    Alexey. Thanks for the analytics. Plus.
    Yes, if the Winter War dragged on it would be necessary to fight with the Anglo-French troops.
    The British still do not declassify the interrogation protocols of Hess.
    Apparently there is "such" that can explain Hitler's reorientation to the East
    1. -13
      19 June 2021 09: 37
      It was unacceptable for the USSR to save the British by throwing millions of Soviet citizens into the furnace of the war.


      unacceptable? But it turned out that way, which means it turned out very acceptable.
    2. +3
      19 June 2021 11: 25
      Wouldn't have to. A month after the reconciliation with Finland, the Angles, even in much closer Norway, could not transfer troops in sufficient numbers. So all the passions-mugs about the Anglo-French intervention in the Soviet-Finnish war were just a bluff.
      1. +7
        20 June 2021 11: 31
        Andrey, about the bluff.
        11 January 1940, the British embassy in Moscow reported that the action in the Caucasus could “bring Russia to its knees as soon as possible,” and the bombing of the Caucasian oil fields can inflict a knockout blow on the USSR.
        On January 15, Secretary General of the French Foreign Ministry Leger told American Ambassador W. Bullitt that Daladier proposed sending a squadron to the Black Sea to blockade Soviet communications and bombard Batumi, as well as to attack from the air the oil development of Baku. Moreover, the purpose of these operations was not only to prevent oil supplies from the USSR to Germany. Leger said: "France will not break off diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union or declare war on it, it will destroy the Soviet Union, if possible - if necessary - with the help of cannons."
    3. -6
      19 June 2021 13: 53
      Alternative history on VO is already folklore.
      Changing the scenario of World War II
      It takes place here that if the grandmother had the same as the grandfather, the grandfathers would not be needed a priori.
      1. 0
        19 June 2021 20: 36
        How easy it is to press minus and consider yourself the king of the universe. :)) Cons do not worry about cowardice to express your opinion. Or is there no opinion?
        1. 0
          20 June 2021 14: 35
          It's simple. History is not predetermined. Much could have changed. After all, history is created by the decisions of people - a person can make a different decision. There is such a concept - free will. Or do you think that nothing could have gone differently, that everything is a foregone conclusion?
  2. -10
    19 June 2021 06: 22
    England wanted .. smash Germany. Therefore, the British are moderate invested in the development of German industry.

    where is the logic? belay Arm to ... smash?
    The Americans have invested large sums in Germany: up to 70% of all financial receipts. Therefore, they assigned Germany a more significant role: not only to defeat the USSR, but also to help the Americans organize a new world order.
    Alas, the author is not aware of politics isolationism USA of the 1930s and the corresponding laws of the USA.

    Everyone who could invest in Germany, because it was very profitable financially
    In 1939, the Government of the USSR managed not to get involved in a war against Nazi Germany and the Anglo-French predators lurking in ambush.

    Hitler succeeded: with his pitiful 2800 tanks (2300 of them were no tankettes) against 10000 tanks of the USSR, there was little chance.

    The predators sat in such an ambush that they declared ... war on Hitler.
    But, according to the author, they shouldn't have been, after all, this pushed Hitler to the east even more.
    The allies were not afraid of Hitler

    to understand how deadly they are were afraid Germany., It is enough to read the speeches in the French parliament on August 2, 1939, where there was fear and where, in fact, a second Munich was proposed, just to avoid wars.
    1. +20
      19 June 2021 11: 09
      "Alas, the author is not aware of the US isolationist policy of the 1930s and the corresponding US laws adopted." ...
      **********************************************************************************
      Alas, these "isolationist" laws do not testify to anything other than the traditional hypocrisy and meanness of the Anglo-Saxons, in general, and the Trans-Occidental, in particular ...

      You, "dear teacher", are probably not aware of such "isolationist" tricks as the Jung and Dawes plan? ..

      Then I remind you ...

      Basic terms of the Dawes plan:

      1. France and Belgium left the Ruhr.

      2. Germany was obliged to pay reparations on time.

      3. USA OFFERED A CREDIT TO Germany to pay off the first reparations accounts.

      4. In Germany, conditions were created for foreign investment in the economy.

      5. Germany OPENED ITS MARKETS FOR IMPORTS FROM THE USA.

      6. INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL CONTROL IN GERMANY HAS BEEN ELIMINATED.

      And so, ACTIVE FOREIGN lending and ACTIVE ENTRANCE to FOREIGN markets, these are very convincing signs of US "isolationism" in practice ...

      According to Jung's plan, further, ALL KINDS of international economic and financial control over Germany are eliminated. The so-called. Bank for INTERNATIONAL Settlements, designed, above all, to ACTIVELY support heavy industry in Germany.

      And here, with American "isolationism", as we see, everything is also "in perfect order." And, of course, all these are just the initiatives of American "private individuals", to whom the "official" policy of "unmercenary" Uncle Sam has nothing to do with ...
      1. -8
        19 June 2021 20: 50
        Quote: ABC-schütze
        Alas, these "isolationist" laws do not testify to anything other than the traditional hypocrisy and meanness of the Anglo-Saxons, in general, and the Trans-Occidental, in particular.

        This passage does not speak about anything other than the applicant's ignorance and bias of such nonsense: in the first half of the 1s, in the face of the intensification of the aggressive aspirations of Germany, Italy and Japan, adherence to the principles of neutrality, non-interference and independence of action was seen in American society as an opportunity to prevent involvement of the United States in an imminent international military conflict. The neutrality laws passed by the US Congress in 1930-1935, which imposed an embargo on the sale of weapons to both aggressors and victims of aggression, clearly manifested the desire of the US government to follow the principles of isolationism.
        Quote: ABC-schütze
        You, "dear teacher", are probably not aware of such "isolationist" feints as the Jung and Dawes plan ?.

        learn, ignoramus, 1920s Dawes plan is a plan economic aid to Germany

        And isolationism is a direction in the external policy, which is based on the idea of ​​not being involved in the affairs of other states, nations, peoples and does not at all imply the curtailment of trade and other economic ties.

        Dawes and Jugng's plans are still dead BEFORE Hitler came-officially, the Yu plan was closed in 1932, but in fact in 1931.

        So with American isolationism, as we can see, everything is in order.
        1. +11
          19 June 2021 23: 14
          Oh yes ... It is precisely the "idea of ​​non-involvement" and precisely as a direction in "foreign policy" that is the basic platform of the US "isolationism" ...

          This is the rare case when you completely convinced me ...

          After all, I always believed that the so-called. The "Monroe Doctrine" (and still not canceled ...) and, moreover, some "14 points" of a certain Wilson, are purely "American" foreign policy products.

          The latter is even called the post-war program of the US GLOBAL EXPANSIONISM. But this, presumably, stems from a "misunderstanding" of the essence of American "isolationism" ....
          .
          1. -6
            20 June 2021 10: 52
            Quote: ABC-schütze
            The latter is even called the post-war program of the US GLOBAL EXPANSIONISM. But this, presumably, stems from a "misunderstanding" of the essence of American "isolationism"

            you have this belief out of ignorance: the United States even did not join the League of Nations declared in the points of Wilson-such is the xpionism lol and further pursued a policy of isolationism.
            1. +5
              21 June 2021 13: 17
              I myself am very surprised how I could "not notice" such a sad fact for the whole world ...

              Perhaps I was distracted by "meaningless" reflections on the topic, why would Uncle Sam "enter" somewhere and bind himself with some kind of obligations to HIS "no-go" DEBTORS? ..

              Moreover, the debtors themselves, relying, again, EXACTLY on the theses of ITS "14 points", quite successfully "reshaped" in their own interests, alien territories, while not letting go "free" of ANY OF THEIR OWN colonies ?

              Yes, and Uncle Sam himself, having made the world happy with his "points", his so-called. I didn’t throw the "Monroe doctrine" into the trash bin at all ...

              For this, to consider the "criteria" of overseas "isolationism", the departure home of the bespectacled professor with the tag "Wilson" or, equally opportunistic "non-entry" of the States into some League of Nations, where they helpfully "reserved a place" can only , "scholars" are scholastics.

              That is, the public, ostentatiously subordinating its public theses to the authority of formal dogma. In our case, the dogma of the overseas ...

              Of course, the latter has nothing to do with you ...

              We always "knew and understood" that such "isolationist" feints as the Monroe Doctrine, Dawes Plan, Jung's Plan, "14 Points" and, even ... almost 20-year "non-recognition" of the USSR, to manifestations US foreign policy can not be attributed. Moreover, long-term policies ...
              1. -3
                22 June 2021 07: 26
                Quote: ABC-schütze
                Perhaps I was distracted by the "pointless" reflections on the ..

                this is understandable: the turret head does not give rest to the legs. (c)
                Quote: ABC-schütze
                Moreover, the debtors, relying, again, EXACTLY on the theses of ITS "14 points", quite successfully "reshaped" in their own interests ALIEN'S territories, while not letting go "free" of ANY OF THEIR OWN colonies ?

                Yes, and Uncle Sam himself, having made the world happy with his "points", his so-called. I didn’t throw the "Monroe doctrine" into the trash bin at all ...

                For this, to consider the "criteria" of overseas "isolationism", the departure home of the bespectacled professor with the tag "Wilson" or, equally opportunistic "non-entry" of the States into some League of Nations, where they helpfully "reserved a place" can only , "scholars" are scholastics.

                That is, the public, ostentatiously subordinating its public theses to the authority of formal dogma. In our case, the dogma of the overseas ...

                Of course, the latter has nothing to do with you ...

                We always "knew and understood" that such "isolationist" feints as the Monroe Doctrine, Dawes Plan, Jung's Plan, "14 Points" and, even ... almost 20-year "non-recognition" of the USSR, to manifestations US foreign policy can not be attributed. Moreover, long-term policies ...

                you have already written WHAT is WHAT above, but AGAIN it did not reach: policy isolationism of the USA (see the adopted US LAWS) DOES NOT imply the exclusion of PROFITABLE economic ties and assistance programs. (Dawes and Jung).

                Your whimsical speculations are the last thing that interests you.
      2. +6
        20 June 2021 08: 08
        Werner, please note that the new US policy, the Yankees' financial support for the Nazis through dummies and banks, began after the expulsion of Trotsky, after a series of trials in the early 30s.
        Ie FINALLY hopes for an internal coup in the USSR collapsed.
        1. +6
          20 June 2021 08: 53
          The Americans themselves said otherwise.
          For example, the US War Committee said before the Senate (1946): "The Dawes Plan, adopted in August 1924, was ideally suited to the plans of the military economists of the German General Staff."

          "... When the Nazis came to power in 1933, they found that, since 1918, great strides had been made in preparing Germany for war from an economic and industrial point of view ..."

          Well, and, of course, they should have smeared their elite: "The United States accidentally played an important role in the technical armament of Germany ..."
          I would put the word "accidentally" in quotes ...
          1. +4
            20 June 2021 09: 08
            From a report to the US Department of State by the Commercial Attaché in Berlin (January 1933): "Germany will produce enough gasoline and soft coal gas for a long war. The Oil of New York Standard is providing millions of dollars to help it... . "
  3. -6
    19 June 2021 07: 41
    Epigon Samsonova is on air again laughing A mixture of half-truths, lies and the author's delirium ...
    1. -2
      19 June 2021 08: 54
      Quote: smaug78
      A mixture of half-truths, lies and the author's delirium ...

      And I would be glad to object, but there is nothing laughing
      1. -5
        19 June 2021 10: 22
        Thanks for your kind words drinks hi We are waiting for regular minus players laughing
        1. -15
          19 June 2021 11: 25
          Quote: smaug78
          Thank you for your kind words. We are waiting for regular minus players

          Do not worry - although I conceived do not agree with your opinion, but with regard to this false historian, I completely agree with your assessment of his "creativity". Moreover, he turned out to be very prolific in recent years, and took up the assessment of Soviet intelligence, neither ear nor digging in it, not understanding what it was doing on the eve of the war, and what materials it presented to the command. He repeatedly accused him of primitive lies and fraud, which he did not avoid in this article. So it is unlikely that those who understand the topic will strongly minus you, but the clakers from the team of this author will definitely throw minuses on you, it has been checked more than once. I even got the impression that he uses vpn addresses to praise himself.
          1. 0
            19 June 2021 17: 42
            We were all counted ...
    2. +2
      19 June 2021 11: 27
      By the way, regarding nonsense:

      In the mid-30s, it was not clear how the military operations in the West would proceed. The German command assumed that the French could capture part of the territory of Germany. Therefore, since 1936 along the Oder a mothballed network of radio stations was created to monitor the enemy who could occupy this part of the country.

      Watching the French from ODEER (which actually runs about 60-70 kilometers EASTERN BERLIN) is very original, yes :)
      1. +15
        19 June 2021 12: 12
        I also tried to "not understand", but I failed ...

        Alas, the teacher drew my attention to the fact that we are not talking about "visual" tracking, but about radio intelligence. That the aforementioned radio stations, for which "60 km." not particularly critical), in fact, were in a "conserved", not ACTIVE state. Those. ACTIVE "tracking", as such, for the PASSIVELY behaving French, to fight with Hitler were not going, and did not ...

        To put forward, for those times, the MOST MODERN means of technical reconnaissance on the territory, which the German command, is considered as "possibly occupied", there is a very interesting idea ...
        1. -13
          19 June 2021 18: 00
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          that, we are not talking about "visual" tracking, but about radio intelligence. That the aforementioned radio stations, for which "60 km." not particularly critical), in fact, were in a "conserved", not ACTIVE state.

          What does the radio intelligence and agent radio networks have to do with it, to which the author of the crazy idea points out? Even if the Germans created such groups and preserved them until the onset of war, they still had to be located near the French border, and certainly not on the border with Poland. And they had to conduct training taking into account the local radio situation - this is also taken into account.
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          To put forward, for those times, the MOST MODERN means of technical reconnaissance on the territory that the German command considers as "possibly occupied", there is a very interesting idea ..

          There is nothing interesting in this - all intelligence services in the world are pushing their radio reconnaissance structures as close to the enemy's borders as possible, and where this is impossible, they send out mobile groups. In 1941, the radio intelligence unit of the Baltic Fleet of the NK Navy was located in Belarus far from the sea, and was engaged in direction finding of German ships and headquarters in the interests of the USSR Navy.
          1. +11
            19 June 2021 23: 28
            Hopefully, "all radio intelligence services" in the world will shy away from using your services as a consultant. And even the APU ...

            1. Sorry, but are you reading what you undertake to "comment"? ..

            What kind of "intelligence services of the world" are deploying "mothballed" networks of military RADIO intelligence (and not agent intelligence with "radio stations") in the territories that are assumed by OWN military command to be "possible for occupation" already in the initial period? ..

            In 1941, the political leadership of the USSR and the command of the Red Army DID NOT CONSIDER either the territory of Belarus or the Baltic states as "possible for occupation." Unlike the command of the Wehrmacht, in 1936, what the author CLEARLY WRITES about. Citing your "example" with "BF radio intelligence", did you know about this? ..
            1. -9
              20 June 2021 13: 47
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              Hopefully, "all radio intelligence services" in the world will shy away from using your services as a consultant. And even the APU ...

              Hopefully, first, study where the radio posts of the OSNAZ divisions were located on June 22 in KOVO or ZAPOVO.
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              1. Sorry, but are you reading what you undertake to "comment"? ..

              "Uncle Petya, are you an eccentric?"
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              What kind of "intelligence services of the world" are deploying "mothballed" networks of military RADIO intelligence (and not agent intelligence with "radio stations") in the territories that are assumed by OWN military command to be "possible for occupation" already in the initial period? ..

              You are clearly delusional - radio intelligence and radio-equipped stations are in themselves different structures in military intelligence and they are not connected with each other, they even have different bosses in the intelligence department itself. There are no "mothballed radio intelligence networks" - you have not noticed this nonsense of the author of the article either.

              Quote: ABC-schütze
              In 1941, the political leadership of the USSR and the command of the Red Army DID NOT CONSIDER either the territory of Belarus or the Baltic states as "possible for occupation."

              And why, then, in May 1941, the Plan for the construction of URs on the third line of defense of the Rzhev-Vyazemsky region was signed and submitted for approval?
              Quote: ABC-schütze
              Citing your "example" with "BF radio intelligence", did you know about this? ..

              You are not in the subject at all, so you will blow bubbles in another place.
              1. +6
                21 June 2021 13: 56
                "And why, then, in May 1941, the Plan for the construction of URs on the third line of defense of the Rzhev-Vyazemsky region was signed and submitted for approval?"
                ************************************************** ********************
                Not only that I am not "in the know," I do not even regret at all that Zhukov and Timoshenko did not inform me about this and did not consult with me ...

                Me, in your "example" another attracted. What you "being in the know" somehow missed out on what to sign in "May 1941" (that is, three to four weeks BEFORE THE GERMAN ATTACK) orders and plans for "building UROV" , somewhat late in the day. Namely, in the context of discussions "about optimal military planning", even if only for the medium term ...

                I recommend that you pay attention to such a "trifle" as the mention by the author of the article that the command
                The Wehrmacht "preoccupied" the assessments of the potential development of the military situation in the DEFENDED territory, STILL (and ALREADY) in 1936, i.e. even (to Munich ", ie TIMELY ...

                "Hopefully, first, study where the radio posts of the OSNAZ divisions were located on June 22 in KOVO or ZAPOVO."
                ************************************************** ********************
                Thank you for your kind advice ...

                But I think that it will be much easier and clearer for you to do two simple things, such as:

                1. Referring to the documents, preferably German ones (and not to your "reasoning" about how "everyone is doing"), refute the following, "delusional" message of the author of the article: "The German command assumed that the French could seize part of the territory Therefore, since 1936, a mothballed network of radio stations was created along the Oder to monitor the enemy who could occupy this part of the country. "

                In short, show the VO forum not the breadth of erudition, but the fact that the Germans "did not have a place to have such ASSUMPTIONS AND ACTIONS" ...

                2. Well, and for me, it would be desirable to "look" (at least with one eye) at the plans prepared in advance by the General Staff of the Red Army (and the Headquarters of the "former" border districts and newly formed border districts) plans, which "allow options" for the occupation of the Soviet border territories by the enemy. Even if the occupation is temporary.

                And not to rhetoric, such as "why did Volodka shave off his mustache? .. Once again, I draw your attention to the fact that" the plans of "Timoshenko and Zhukov" from May 1941, about the BEGINNING of the construction of the URO, if it can be considered "an indicator of readiness "to the occupation of a part of the Soviet territory by the aggressor, then VERY LATE ...

                In any case, in order to roll out this "argument" as an intelligible antithesis to the author of the article. Well, and for me, for one ...
                1. -9
                  21 June 2021 18: 03
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  Not only that I am not "in the know," I do not even regret at all that Zhukov and Timoshenko did not inform me about this and did not consult with me ...

                  Those. you know nothing about the existence of this document - it is good that you admitted it.
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  Me, in your "example" another attracted. What you "being in the know" somehow missed out on what to sign in "May 1941" (that is, three to four weeks BEFORE THE GERMAN ATTACK) orders and plans for "building UROV" , somewhat late in the day. Namely, in the context of discussions "about optimal military planning", even if only for the medium term ...

                  At this time, the UR line on the new border had not yet been completed, there was not enough manpower and resources, which is why it was planned to start construction of the third line in the second half of 1941. What is there that is incomprehensible to your mind?
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  I recommend that you pay attention to such a "trifle" as the mention by the author of the article that the command
                  The Wehrmacht "preoccupied" the assessments of the potential development of the military situation in the DEFENDED territory, STILL (and ALREADY) in 1936, i.e. even (to Munich ", ie TIMELY ...

                  I would also recommend you to find out that in all developed countries the general staffs are preparing various analytical materials, but this does not mean that there will necessarily be a war. We live in the world after 1945, and what kind of plans the Americans have been creating with regard to the USSR during this time, you cannot imagine. And more than one military plan has not been fulfilled.
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  In short, show the VO forum not the breadth of erudition, but the fact that the Germans "had no place to have such ASSUMPTIONS AND ACTIONS."

                  Why don't you ask the author of the article to provide confirmation of his crazy ideas, at least with a link to a document? After all, it was he who invented it, not me - from him and the demand, since you are such an advanced researcher.
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  2. Well, and for me, it would be desirable to "look" (at least with one eye) at the plans prepared in advance by the General Staff of the Red Army (and the Headquarters of the "former" border districts and newly formed border districts) plans, which "allow options" for the occupation of the Soviet border territories by the enemy. Even if the occupation is temporary.

                  This plan best confirms where they were preparing to meet the enemy after the retreat:

                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  Once again, I draw your attention to the fact that the "plans of" Timoshenko and Zhukov "of May 1941, about the BEGINNING of the construction of an URO-in, if it can be considered an" indicator of readiness "for the occupation of a part of Soviet territory by the aggressor, then it is EXTREMELY LATE ...

                  They did not have a magic wand to build a new SD line in a month - the completion of construction was planned for 1942, because all forces were thrown into the construction of the SD on the new border. It is strange that your head does not fit that the country physically could not spend money but new construction without completing the old one.
                  Quote: ABC-schütze
                  Well, and for me, for one ...

                  And why do you need it, you are clearly not in the subject, and believe those who lie like a certain anonym AsmyppoL.
                  1. +4
                    22 June 2021 12: 33
                    "That is, you do not know anything about the existence of this document - it is good that you admitted it."
                    ************************************************** ***************
                    I'm glad you liked it ...

                    I will say more - I do not even regret it at all. For, unlike you, I do not pass myself off either as a "historian" or, even more so, as an "expert" in military history.

                    But I noticed and understood well that the map of the third line of the URO-V, which you cited as an "argument" and the answer to my proposal to you, to bring documents confirming that the General Staff of the Red Army, the People's Commissariat of Defense and the highest political leadership of the USSR, had defense plans in their depths. territory, confirms EXACTLY mine, and not at all your thesis. That is, taking into account the time of their "approval" - MAY 1941 (three to four weeks before the German attack), TIMELY, PREVIOUSLY DEVELOPED plans and intentions to defend against the Nazis in the DEPTH of Soviet territory.

                    Which, in fact, is understandable, because the USSR never planned to sign agreements with Nazi Germany in August - September 1939 either.

                    You, presumably, "forgot" that the so-called. "Stalin's line", which became "the will of fate", later the so-called. "the second line URO-v", was started by construction back in 1928. And, for this, initially and for a LONG TIME, no "defense planning" from the attack of Nazi Germany, did not assume in principle.

                    But what surprised me, as an amateur, most of all, was your stubborn unwillingness to "notice", precisely in the CONTEXT of REAL Soviet military planning, the so-called. "Molotov Lines". But it was IT, which later became the "first line of URO-v", after the forced signing of the German-Soviet agreements of 1939, in the course of TWO YEARS, from 1939 to 1941, was intensively built.

                    Built EXACTLY along the PERIMETER of the so-called. the "new" border, and not at all in the depths of Soviet territory. Those. "initially", for a war with Nazi Germany and "meeting" its possible attack on the ADVANCED frontiers, we were ACTIVELY preparing, but we DIDN'T PREPARE for retreat and defense in the DEPTH of their territory ...

                    And the "advanced" deployment of posts and units of the military radio intelligence of the Red Army in this period was determined by this very circumstance. Those. LACK OF INTENTIONS and DEFENSE PLANS from the Soviet military command in the DEPTH of its territory.

                    For this, your link to the map of the "third line of URO-v", from MAY 1941, as an "argument" and an answer to me does not "roll". For IN ANY of my PREVIOUSLY SPEAKED theses DOES NOT REFUTE. Rather, they are VISIBLY CONFIRMED.

                    For which special thanks to you ...
                    1. +4
                      22 June 2021 12: 49
                      I clarify by adding the word I missed in my text: "That is, taking into account the time of their" approval "- MAY 1941 (three to four weeks before the German attack), LACK OF TIMELY, PREVIOUSLY DEVELOPED plans and intentions to defend against the Nazis in DEPTH Soviet territory ".
                    2. -5
                      22 June 2021 13: 07
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      But what surprised me, as an amateur, most of all, was your stubborn unwillingness to "notice", precisely in the CONTEXT of REAL Soviet military planning, the so-called. "Molotov Lines". But it was IT, which later became the "first line of URO-v", after the forced signing of the German-Soviet agreements of 1939, in the course of TWO YEARS, from 1939 to 1941, was intensively built.

                      This surprises all amateurs, because they do not know that the timing of the equipment of the western theater of operations, after the annexation of new lands, was, according to the calculations of military specialists, including General D.M. Karbyshev, from 5 to 7 years of Peacetime. That is why the planning of the new UR line was started only in 1941, because the first line was not yet completed.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      And the "advanced" deployment of posts and units of the military radio intelligence of the Red Army in this period was determined by this very circumstance. Those. LACK OF INTENTIONS and DEFENSE PLANS from the Soviet military command in the DEPTH of its territory.

                      This is complete nonsense, because the intelligence unit is deployed in those positions from which it is most convenient for them to obtain information, and they are not tied to the operational plans of the General Staff, because this is the fiefdom of the chief of the General Staff.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      For this, your link to the map of the "third line of URO-v", from MAY 1941, as an "argument" and an answer to me does not "roll".

                      Of course, you are still not able to understand it, but here I cannot help you with anything.
                      Quote: ABC-schütze
                      For which special thanks to you ...

                      Not worth gratitude - it's still not a horse feed ...
                  2. +4
                    22 June 2021 12: 44
                    "They did not have a magic wand to build a new SD line in a month - THE END OF construction WAS PLANNED for 1942, because all forces were thrown into the construction of a SD on the NEW border. new construction without finishing the old one. "
                    ************************************************** ***************
                    A lot of things "don't fit" in my head ...

                    For example, I cannot understand how a person like you, especially one who is "in the subject", cannot understand that to "oppose" MY thesis about the EXTREMELY belated BEGINNING of planning by the Soviet military command for the construction of defensive lines in the depths of its territory, " with reference to "the planned END of the construction of these lines, is there, excuse me, TOTAL ABSURD and polemical helplessness? ..

                    helplessness, on a CONCEPTUAL level? ..

                    And even if you, as a person "in the subject", put a "clamshell" in the opened archives to study all the "new documents", it will hardly help you ...
                  3. +4
                    22 June 2021 13: 31
                    "Why don't you ask the author of the article to provide confirmation of his crazy ideas, at least by referring to a document? After all, it was he who invented, and not me - he is in demand, since you are such an advanced researcher."
                    ************************************************** ***************

                    Excuse me generously, but this saying addressed to your like-minded person with the assessment of the author, - "You rightly noticed this FANTASTIC nonsense of the author of the article, BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER SUCH ANYONE IN THE HEAD IN THE PREPARATION FOR A WAR WITH FRANCE", is it yours? ..

                    If yes, then now, ON THE THIRD DAY of discussion of the issue, it is a little too late for you to give me "advice" with what questions to contact the author ...

                    If it IS YOU, emotionally and IMMEDIATELY, rushed to "refute" the author with a whole set of "subjunctive" moods, and not with SPECIFIC references to German documents KNOWN to you, PROVING the absence of the Wehrmacht command, "delusional" military plans of such a CHARACTER, which allegedly "they are the author, you, not me, and it SHOULD be the first to contact the author with a proposal to give a link to SPECIFIC German documents.

                    You set off into banal, wordy lyrics and "demonstration of erudition." For this, I will not do your work for you as a "person in the subject" ...
      2. -1
        19 June 2021 12: 59
        Quite right remark ...
        I apologize.
        The point should be that in the event of a war with France and Poland, part of the territory in the east will have to surrender and hold the line along the Oder River.
      3. -13
        19 June 2021 17: 51
        Quote: Lieutenant Chetverkin
        Watching the French from ODEER (which actually runs about 60-70 kilometers EASTERN BERLIN) is very original, yes :)

        You rightly noticed this enchanting nonsense of the author of the article, because such a thing could never have occurred to anyone in preparation for a war with France. Since the author usually compiles various materials from the network and uses translated texts from other people's articles, in this case there is a translation error, which the author, due to lack of knowledge, did not even notice.
        Those who understand how this is all done simply laugh from the author's fantasies, as well as from that stupidity when he convinced that by changing shoulder straps one can easily deceive the radio intelligence of the Red Army.
  4. -9
    19 June 2021 08: 47
    Продолжение следует ...
    This is not encouraging. Samsonovshchina metastases.
    1. -4
      19 June 2021 09: 17
      "Chairs creep like cockroaches." (C) laughing

      Hi victor smile
      1. -11
        19 June 2021 09: 24
        Good afternoon, Constantine. Chairs are not scary yet. But such authors-propagandists from history are much worse. Moreover, the process is undergoing continuous hysteria about the rewriting of history by the West. This is how the slogan "Let us answer the rewriting of history by the West by our rewriting" is asking.
        1. -12
          19 June 2021 09: 43
          The adherents of the cockroach kingdom came, and everything was as usual. Not a single sensible word, only mouse clicks on the minuses. Squalor. Do they seriously believe that they can somehow harm us or spoil our mood? laughing
          1. -12
            19 June 2021 12: 54
            The adherents of the cockroach kingdom crawled

            This is the unforgettable Mikhail Samuelyevich about them.
      2. +4
        19 June 2021 13: 18
        Quote: Sea Cat
        "Chairs creep like cockroaches." (C) laughing

        Hi victor smile

        Victor and Konstantin - welcome! hi
        Cons for the phrase "Victor, hello!" - this is cheto with something laughing
        1. 0
          19 June 2021 13: 27
          Hello Albert! hi

          It's nice to know that people are growing above themselves and between themselves. laughing
          Next time I'll stick in the coat of arms of the Soviet Union with the inscription: "Long live Stalin!" Yes
          1. 0
            19 June 2021 13: 37
            It is better to draw a poster with a Tartar Red Army soldier stringing the Enemies of the Communists on a bayonet fellow
            1. -1
              19 June 2021 13: 50
              You can and this, for example.
              1. -1
                19 June 2021 14: 11
                Behind - in front of it recourse
        2. -1
          20 June 2021 11: 24
          Hmm, let's check - Albert, Hi!))
          1. +1
            20 June 2021 12: 24
            Greetings! hi
            Cossack rascal, Cossack entertainer negative
            1. +1
              20 June 2021 14: 08
              It worked!! The greeting is also a minus !!
              1. 0
                21 June 2021 11: 47
                The fighters against the enemies of the communists are not asleep laughing
    2. -1
      19 June 2021 16: 12
      "The claw is stuck - to the whole bird of the khan"
  5. +19
    19 June 2021 10: 53
    Quite a sensible article. Structure, stylistics, OBJECTIVE, not "cut off" from the GENERAL CONTEXT of the international situation, argumentation - "all the way" ...

    But to this thesis: "4. Our government managed to move the border in some areas to the territory of Finland and the former Poland."

    That the aforementioned "movement" of the border, in fact, was a LEGAL and TIMELY RETURN by the Soviet government of RUSSIAN TERRITORIES, ILLEGALLY TAKEN FROM Soviet Russia with the use of EXTERNAL MILITARY PRESSURE by INTERVENTS, SUPPORTED by them "SELF-SUPPORTED BY THE RUSSIAN TERRITORIES."

    For according to the Nishtat peace, the Russian Empire not only "took away" from the Swedes the Russian territories COLONIZED by them, TAKEN FROM RUSSIA earlier, by the Swedes FORCE. BUT AND GENEROUSLY PAID the Swedes with a "hard coin". So, from the point of view of international law (even the so-called "modern"), these Russian territorial acquisitions could not be considered a purely "forceful seizure" (which means - "a-priori", illegal ...).

    As for the "former Poland", one must remember and understand that "independence" to it, in March 16, 1917, was not granted at all by the Bolsheviks, but by the so-called. "Provisional Government". Those. CRIMINAL, from the point of view of state law, a group of Oath-criminals and traitors to the oath, which committed a STATE coup in Imperial Russia, DURING the ongoing war. This time ...

    And second ... Let's not forget that the territories of the Warsaw General Governorship (the so-called "Vistula Region"), since 1915 have been OCCUPIED by the Germans and Austro-Hungarians. That is to say, they were under the rule of the occupiers. This means that any "recognition" of their "independence", especially by those who committed the coup d'etat and OVERLAWED THE LEGAL head of the Russian state, CANNOT BE CONSIDERED LEGAL from the outset.

    And the third thing ... The notorious Bolsheviks, having committed a coup in Russia in October 1917, and expelling, BY THE SAME, THE FORMER TURNOVERS (the so-called illegal "power"), thereby DIDN'T COMMIT ANY CRIME.

    For they NEVER BELIED to illegal, "temporary" coups.

    Moreover, they did not swear allegiance IMMEDIATELY to the "allies" in ANTANTA, who immediately "recognized" these rebels as the "legitimate" Russian government. For the "ally" who entered into a treaty agreement with the LEGAL power, and then, "recognized" its ILLEGAL overthrow, thereby AUTOMATICALLY RELEASES THE STATE, PREVIOUSLY LEGAL POWER headed by and ALL of its PERSONS, FROM ALL PREVIOUSLY "TAKEN" by themselves.

    So here, too, the Bolsheviks, in legal terms, are completely flawless before ANTANTA. Like the Soviet government before the "ceased to exist" on September 17, 1939, yes, the former "Polish state" ...
    1. Fat
      0
      20 June 2021 15: 56
      And you are great! I have never tried to consider that difficult situevina from this point of view. Thank you.
      1. 0
        6 July 2021 11: 01
        The problem with this kind of view is that the beholder fixes the date from which he is looking. And do you know Vyborg was once a Swedish city. I'm not hinting at anything.
    2. 0
      5 July 2021 13: 26
      I apologize for adding to your "Discussion". But what about the document on Finland's self-determination signed by the "Council of People's Commissars"?
      Well, I understand that there is further civil war (between red and white) and so on, but the document is here it is.
  6. -11
    19 June 2021 11: 10
    Well, the regular minus markers, the victims of the exam, came running laughing Everything is according to the precepts of Navalny ...
  7. -17
    19 June 2021 11: 14
    Author:
    Alexey Ivanov

    On the morning of November 14, Molotov left Berlin. It is likely that after this meeting Hitler made the final decision on the war with the USSR ...

    This is not at all the edge of reason, because at first the author states that Hitler gave instructions in the summer to work out a plan for a war with the USSR, but the most important thing is that
    December 18, 1940 Adolf Hitler approved Directive No. 21 Plan "Barbarossa"

    Anyone who understands at least something in military affairs will immediately realize that such a plan is being prepared for at least a couple of months, i.e. long before meeting with Molotov, Hitler decided to attack the USSR, and gave the order to develop a war plan. What could Molotov have influenced if the decision on the war had already been made?
    I see no reason to analyze in detail the pearls of this "historian", but his statement that
    In the mid-30s, the German command did not yet know the method by which they would break through the Maginot Line and the border fortifications in Belgium.
    makes no sense, if only because the Reichswehr existed until 1935 and even Hitler would not have thought of fighting against France with a hundred thousandth army.
    As for the conduct of intelligence by the Germans in relation to France and the Maginot Line, the author, hiding his name under the nickname AsmyppoL, apparently does not know that the RKKA RU was constantly conducting intelligence throughout Europe, which can be seen in the reports of Soviet agents and information materials, which are now declassified :

    Item 2.10 of V. Kondrashov's book is just devoted to the materials of the spacecraft RU, concerning the mid-30s of the last century.
    In addition, in the table given by him, where he compares the number of divisions of the Red Army according to German estimates, and corrects their data with red numbers, a forgery was carried out, if only because the staffing of the divisions was different, and the Germans naturally proceeded from the number of divisions that were actually combat ready , or within a few days they became combat-ready, and not those that would appear during a full-scale mobilization. This is the whole author, because the overwhelming number of his articles is just a compilation of dubious texts and data, which he adjusts to fit his illiterate conclusions.
    In a word, this article is another set of ignorant cliches, and the author's conclusions can be safely thrown into the trash, because it reeks of an amateurish approach to military history.
    1. +7
      20 June 2021 09: 34
      Usually I skip your comments, as the opinion of a person who is not versed in the issue under discussion and who draws knowledge from Wikipedia and some of his own knowledge.
      The development of a plan for a war with the USSR does not mean that the war will inevitably take place. The military is always making plans. Just like in 1938, the USSR considered its plan based on the war against Germany and Poland, but such a war did not work out.
      Also, the plan developed in the summer of 1940 included only the calculation of forces, resources and time for such a war.
      This only testifies to the fact that the German plan for the war with the USSR is outdated after the defeat of the allies. I came across it in the fund 500 ...
      But simultaneously with this plan, plans for Operation Sea Lion and Attila were being developed.

      There is a similar Note from Tymoshenko and Meretskov from September (draft) - October (last version). This did not mean that immediately after the appearance of the plan, the Soviet Union would rush to Germany.
      Sergei Leonidovich Chekunov wrote at the forum that almost all of 1941 (before the start of the war) our General Staff was continuously developing and refining its war plans ...

      Naturally, after the reorganization of the tank and motorized divisions, the use of captured weapons, this plan needed to be clarified in the fall!
      This is what the General Staff of the Ground Forces did.
      After Molotov's visit to Berlin, some changes could be included in the developed doctrine of war.
      That being said, when Hitler signed the directive in December 1940, it was not yet a plan. These were only its main provisions. The fund 500 contains a huge amount of material showing that a more detailed plan (and plans for army groups, for tank groups, for armies and below) was developed in January-March 1941. Many adjustment documents date back to April. I don't remember about May ...
      Further, when Germany had a small army, even then the military had to have plans for the conduct of hostilities. But why necessarily offensive? Where does such nonsense come from?

      Further about exploration. How do you get the idea that German intelligence knew about the number of our combat-ready divisions and that they were examining them? What nonsense! If you look at their documents, then they generally had little idea about our troops in the North Caucasus Military District, in the Volga Region, in the Ural Region, in the Moscow Region. There are some questions and assumptions about the presence of rifle divisions there.
      Moreover, German intelligence has a poor understanding of the boundaries of our military districts. For example, their western district occupies the territory almost to the Moscow region.
      The pre-war data even show that they poorly represent the number of our divisions in the ZAPOVO and in the KOVO.
      Further on your knowledge at the level of an elementary school student, I do not even want to discuss ...
      1. -14
        20 June 2021 14: 15
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Usually I skip your comments, as the opinion of a person who is not versed in the issue under discussion and who draws knowledge from Wikipedia and some of his own knowledge.

        Because, in fact, you have nothing to argue, and your chatter does not deserve serious attention at all, and several people here at once pointed out this to you besides me. Especially many were amused by your pearls as a "military historian" ....
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        The development of a plan for a war with the USSR does not mean that the war will inevitably take place.

        And nevertheless, what is the point of developing it if war is not envisaged? The war may not take place, but if they develop a detailed war plan and hide its development, then the war will take place, which was confirmed by the seizure of Poland, Denmark, Belgium, France. Or were they captured without war plans? Why there the war took place according to plan and it was not canceled, you probably never will come to mind.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        The military is always making plans.

        You are lying as always, because the military does not develop WAR PLANS until they receive instructions on this from the government of the country, be it Germany, the USSR or another state.

        Quote: AsmyppoL
        This only testifies to the fact that the German plan for the war with the USSR is outdated after the defeat of the allies. I came across it in the fund 500 ...

        Another unverifiable lie, especially since you haven't even submitted a scan.

        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Sergey Leonidovich Chekunov wrote at the forum,

        I do not know what he wrote there and on what forum, but here he did not support your fantasies - at least I did not see his texts. Yes, and Chekunov is not an authority for me, after what he spit on the militia.

        Quote: AsmyppoL
        After Molotov's visit to Berlin, some changes could be included in the developed doctrine of war.

        Only in your fantasies - what does the German General Staff care about what Molotov said there, if they are engaged in specific military planning.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        That being said, when Hitler signed the directive in December 1940, it was not yet a plan. These were only its main provisions. The fund 500 contains a huge amount of material showing that a more detailed plan (and plans for army groups, for tank groups, for armies and below) was developed in January-March 1941. Many adjustment documents date back to April.

        Another amateur nonsense, because the signed directive is precisely the basis for the entire military mechanism to engage in the development of all materials specifically with reference to the instructions of this directive. Therefore, after the release of the directive, many plans and internal directives were created, including, for example, on the enemy's disinformation in February 1941.

        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Further about exploration. How do you get the idea that German intelligence knew about the number of our combat-ready divisions and that they were examining them? What nonsense!

        Nonsense is born in your head from an elementary misunderstanding of how military intelligence works, which I have repeatedly pointed out to you .. German intelligence conducted not only radio intelligence of our troops, but also radio-equipped agent networks worked on our territory until June 22, not to mention the ambassadorial station. Interception and deciphering of reports is a common occupation of the Wehrmacht's radio reconnaissance regiments, and from them they received information about our army.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Moreover, German intelligence has a poor understanding of the boundaries of our military districts.

        I don’t even venture to comment on this enchanting nonsense, if only because the Germans needed to know the opposing group, and not those who would give them orders. And they do not care about the boundaries of the districts, because with the beginning of the war they are opposed by the fronts, and the border districts cease their activities in a few weeks or months.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Further on your knowledge at the level of an elementary school student, I do not even want to discuss ...

        Twenty times they told me about this, you are our unsurpassed verbiage ...
        1. +6
          20 June 2021 17: 38
          Asmyppol: “The development of a plan for a war with the USSR does not mean that the war will certainly take place. The military is always making plans. "
          Ccsr: “And nevertheless, what is the point of developing it if war is not envisaged? The war may not take place, but if they develop a detailed war plan and hide its development, then the war will take place, which was confirmed by the seizure of Poland, Denmark, Belgium, France. Or were they captured without war plans? Why there the war took place according to plan and it was not canceled, you probably never would have thought.
          Lying as always, because the military does not develop PLANS until they receive instructions from the government of the country, be it Germany, the USSR or another state. "


          Here is what historian Sergei Leonidovich Chekunov writes about making plans: “Drawing up operational plans is the responsibility of the staff / general staff. To start drawing up a plan ... no instructions from above are needed ...
          There are duties of the General Staff, in which it is written that they are OBLIGED to monitor the situation and develop a plan of proposed actions ... There is a change in some parameters, the General Staff is obliged to develop and propose possible actions to the country's leadership (draw up considerations) ... "


          It couldn't be better. Before the war, cover plans (they are also plans of military action in case of war) were developed for the Transcaucasian, Central Asian, Trans-Baikal districts and the Far Eastern Front. But in the same place, military actions were not conducted either with Turkey, or with Japan, or with other countries. Plans were developed and existed, but there was no war in these areas. Now the same thing: plans are developed for different theaters of war, but there is no war.

          Ccsr: "This is not at all the edge of reason, because at first the author states that Hitler gave instructions in the summer to work out a plan of war with the USSR, but the most important thing is that Asmyppol writes:" On December 18, 1940, Adolf Hitler approved Directive No. 21 Plan "Barbarossa"
          Anyone who understands at least something in military affairs will immediately realize that such a plan is being prepared for at least a couple of months "


          Did I write something on time?
          The plan of the war with the USSR after the defeat of the allied forces, of course, had to be developed in the summer, tk. old is deprecated. After the reorganization of the tank and motorized divisions and the introduction of clarifications, the plan was again revised under a new name, played at the games, the project was shown to Hitler and, after making comments, was corrected and signed.
          After the signing of the directive, the operational and strategic planning was transferred to the headquarters of the branches of the armed forces and formations of troops, where more specific plans were developed, the tasks of the troops were clarified and detailed, measures were determined to prepare the armed forces, the economy, and the future theater of operations for war. All this happened in 1941.
          What does two months have to do with it? Learn to formulate a question coherently ...

          Asmyppol: "After Molotov's visit to Berlin, some changes could be included in the developed doctrine of war."

          Ccsr: "Only in your fantasies - what does the German General Staff care about what Molotov said there, if they are engaged in specific military planning."

          Hitler could come up with different ideas and he could give some instructions in terms of the plan. And what's so unusual about that? What does the termination of the development of the plan have to do with it?
          On December 17, Hitler made a change to the draft directive, and on December 18, he was presented with a revised version, which he signed. And none of the General Staff officers fell into hysterics that something needed to be corrected ...
          In addition, the directive itself contains a clause: "All orders that will be given by the commanders-in-chief on the basis of this directive must most definitely proceed from the fact that we are talking about precautions in case Russia changes its current position in relation to us ..." You never know what could have happened before May. In April of the following year, Hitler was in doubt ...
          1. +5
            20 June 2021 17: 52
            AsmyppoL: “Next, about intelligence. How do you get the idea that German intelligence knew about the number of our combat-ready divisions and that they were examining them? ... Moreover, German intelligence has a poor idea of ​​the boundaries of our military districts. "

            ccsr: “Nonsense is born in your head from an elementary misunderstanding of how military intelligence works, which I have repeatedly pointed out to you .. German intelligence conducted not only radio intelligence of our troops, but also radio-equipped agent networks worked on our territory until June 22, not to mention the ambassadorial station ... Interception and deciphering of reports is a common occupation of the Wehrmacht radio intelligence regiments, and from them they received information about our army ... And they don’t care about the borders of the districts, because with the beginning of the war they are opposed by the fronts, and the border districts cease their activities in a few weeks or months.

            Instead of providing accurate data that would confirm your words that the German intelligence knew very well about the troops of the Red Army ccsr, they are citing ordinary verbal rubbish. It means that he does not have data and simply presents his inventions in an insulting form as facts ...
            According to the intelligence and operational department of Army Group B, as of May 20, 1941, the enemy does not have complete data on our troops within the framework of the ZAPOVO. Enemy intelligence does not know about the formation of tank divisions. She does not know about the presence of the Oryol and Kharkov military districts. According to German intelligence, there are about 6,5 divisions in the Moscow, Oryol and Kharkov districts. German intelligence information turned out to be unreliable ...




            Not knowing the true number of our divisions Halder at first he was happy, and then he was sad:
            "8.7.41. Of the 164 enemy rifle divisions we identified, 89 were wholly or mostly destroyed. 46 combat-ready Russian rifle divisions remained at the front ... Of the 29 tank divisions we identified, 20 were wholly or mostly destroyed. 9 divisions are still fully combat-ready ...
            24.8.41 g. The general situation shows more and more clearly that the colossus-Russia, which was deliberately preparing for war ... was underestimated by us ... By the beginning of the war we had about 200 enemy divisions against us. Now we already have 360 ​​enemy divisions ... "

            AsmyppoL: "This led to the fact that the intelligence of the neighboring districts had to double-check the information received about the deployment of enemy troops at the junctions of the districts."

            ccsr: "This nonsense should not be taken seriously - the tasks of the intelligence department of the districts could only be set from the RC General Staff, and if such a command was not received, then no one will ever double-check someone else's information, if it does not apply to this district."

            Another phrase of a person who does not own information ...
            The intelligence departments of the district headquarters were subordinate to the chief of staff of the district or the direct chief (the commander of the district troops or his deputy).
            This is the same as that the aviation of the district was subordinate to the chief of the air force of the district, and not to the chief of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Red Army.

            That is why the Intelligence Directorate could not insist on the introduction of a single line of demarcation on the enemy's territory between PribOVO and ZAPOVO.
            In the reports of the intelligence department of the PribOVO headquarters, the line of demarcation runs: "on the left - Suwalki, Likk, Allenstein."
            In the summaries of the intelligence department of the headquarters of the Western Military District, the line of demarcation runs: “East Prussian direction. Within the borders on the right - Suwalki, Heilsberg. "

            Suwalki, Alenstein and part of the territory to the city of Likk ZAPOVO took over.
            Everything would be fine, but the Intelligence Directorate believes that there are 23-24 divisions against the PribOVO troops on May 31.5.41, 28 and up to 22 divisions by June 30. It also thinks that there are 31 divisions against the ZAPOVO on May 31 and 22 divisions on June XNUMX.

            Only ZAPOVO itself counted 33-38 divisions at the beginning of June and up to 46-49 divisions on June 21st.
            How the command of the ZAPOVO decided was not dependent on the opinion of the Intelligence Directorate.
            If in the summary of the ZAPOVO intelligence department there is a phrase: "two motorized divisions (data from the Baltic Special Military District)", and this territory in the headquarters is attributed to its own district, then the chief of staff may well instruct his subordinate, the chief of the intelligence department, to clarify these data. What is incomprehensible here ??
            1. -13
              20 June 2021 19: 06
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              According to the intelligence and operational department of Army Group B, as of May 20, 1941, the enemy does not have complete data on our troops within the framework of the ZAPOVO. Enemy intelligence does not know about the formation of tank divisions. She does not know about the presence of the Oryol and Kharkov military districts. According to German intelligence, there are about 6,5 divisions in the Moscow, Oryol and Kharkov districts. German intelligence information turned out to be unreliable ...

              As always, the deceitful author does not show where this text came from, and to whom it belongs. And knowing his craving for falsifications and lies, I am sure that he will never tell where he got it, especially since it was about May 20.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              Not knowing the true number of our divisions, Halder was at first happy, and then saddened:
              "8.7.41. Of the 164 enemy rifle divisions identified by us, 89 were wholly or mostly destroyed. 46 combat-ready Russian rifle divisions remained at the front ... Of the 29 tank divisions we identified, 20 were wholly or mostly destroyed. 9 divisions are still fully combat-ready.

              Again fraudulent - snatched data from July, after the start of the war, and trying to pull them to the pre-war period. But here, too, the author made a cheap mistake, because above he asserted that the Germans did not know about the number of our divisions, and suddenly the figure "164 identified" appears at once, i.e. the Germans studied in detail the state of the spacecraft, since they could identify the divisions.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              By the beginning of the war we had about 200 enemy divisions against us. Now we already have 360 ​​enemy divisions ... "

              The author once again shows his denseness, because the counted 360 divisions in reality were not like that, because there was a constant process of disbandment, formation, staffing of formations, and in order to avoid confusion, new formations that were created on the basis of the broken ones were given different numbers. And this, in particular, was done to mislead the enemy about our true capabilities. And the author lied to us, how the Germans deceived us by changing their epaulettes - yes, we drew so many new paper divisions for them that they themselves fell into a stupor about our power.

              Quote: AsmyppoL
              Another phrase of a person who does not own information ...
              The intelligence departments of the district headquarters were subordinate to the chief of staff of the district or the direct chief (the commander of the district troops or his deputy).
              This is the same as that the aviation of the district was subordinate to the chief of the air force of the district, and not to the chief of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Red Army.

              Another amateurish nonsense - how then could the RU know that the intelligence of the districts had mined? Marshal Konev was told by the head of the KOVO intelligence department that they constantly report all information to Moscow, and our false historian does not believe this either.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              That is why the Intelligence Directorate could not insist on the introduction of a single line of demarcation on the enemy's territory between PribOVO and ZAPOVO.

              Nonsense of a gray mare - RU GSh generally has nothing to do with the administrative-territorial division of districts, because it is determined by the government of the country, and not even by the people's commissar of defense. This is how the deceitful AsmyppoL imposes its illiterate conclusions on people, even has no idea how it really is.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              How the command of the ZAPOVO decided was not dependent on the opinion of the Intelligence Directorate.
              If in the summary of the ZAPOVO intelligence department there is a phrase: "two motorized divisions (data from the Baltic Special Military District)", and this territory in the headquarters is attributed to its own district, then the chief of staff may well instruct his subordinate, the chief of the intelligence department, to clarify these data. What is incomprehensible here ??

              Only one thing our dreamer will not understand that in the RU General Staff they could disagree with the opinion of the district intelligence officers, because they could have more reliable data from other sources.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              How the command of the ZAPOVO decided it did not depend on the opinion of the Intelligence Directorate

              And if they were given information from a higher level of agents, they, like rams, should believe only what they themselves got? Maybe enough to carry nonsense, homebrew "researcher"? By the way, the author cites these clippings from cards with photoshopped drawings as a reliable fact - in general, he is lying without blushing from his lies.
              Further on your knowledge at the level of an elementary school student, I do not even want to discuss ...

              What is it, have you forgotten what you were just screaming about?
          2. -11
            20 June 2021 17: 59
            Quote: AsmyppoL

            Here is what historian Sergei Leonidovich Chekunov writes about drawing up plans: “Drawing up operational plans is the responsibility of the staff / general staff. To start drawing up a plan ... no instructions from above are needed ...

            Your Chekunov is lying like a gray gelding, because if the military suddenly, on their own initiative, want to develop a war plan, then how will it reflect the participation of other people's commissariats of the country who have not received such an assignment from the government? I'm not saying that if such a plan begins to be developed without the government's instructions, then in the event that the enemy becomes aware of this, for example, because of his agent in the People's Commissariat of Defense, then this in itself can provoke a war that was not in the plans government for the near future. And who then will be responsible for such amateur performance? Chekunov or what?
            In general, this Chekunov bouncer like all would-be historians from the plow.
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            It couldn't be better. Cover plans were drawn up before the war

            You are definitely an amateur in military affairs - these are operational plans for the districts only, and not a plan for the war of the USSR against Germany.
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            What does two months have to do with it?

            Despite the fact that documents of this level require approval not only in the types of the armed forces, but also all other power structures of the state, including the police, and most importantly those who are responsible in industry for the production of weapons and equipment. And this takes time, especially if the documents have the highest secrecy stamps.
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            Hitler could come up with different ideas and he could give some instructions in terms of the plan.

            Now you "thought" for Stalin and began to think for Hitler - in an original way, you will not say anything. For our Lord our God have not yet tried to meditate in order to enlighten us all as it really was?
            1. +4
              20 June 2021 18: 51
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              What does two months have to do with it?

              Despite the fact that documents of this level require approval not only in the types of the armed forces, but also all other power structures of the state, including the police, and most importantly those who are responsible in industry for the production of weapons and equipment. And this takes time

              Where does this nonsense come from? Your fantasies again?
              It is now known that the directive was printed in nine copies. Six remained in OKW and three were sent to the command of the ground forces, air force and navy. In the indicated commands, they were intended for further planning. It is not provided on the directive of places for the resolution of the police and others.
              There is no need to refer to the fact that you know this for sure ...
              Bring documents that it was so. Your delirium is already just got
              1. -14
                20 June 2021 19: 20
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                Where does this nonsense come from? Your fantasies again?

                Educate yourself, dreamer, about this ten years ago they wrote in detail on VO:
                On August 5, General E. Marx prepared an initial plan, "Plan Fritz". The main blow against him was from East Prussia and Northern Poland to Moscow.
                .... Further elaboration of the plan was entrusted to General F. Paulus, who received the post of assistant chief of staff of the ground forces. In addition, Hitler enlisted the generals, who were to become the chiefs of staff of the army groups. They had to independently investigate the problem. By September 17, this work was completed and Paulus could summarize the results. On October 29, he provided a memorandum: "On the main concept of the operation against Russia." It emphasized that it was necessary to achieve surprise of the strike, and for this to develop and implement measures to misinform the enemy. The need was pointed out to prevent the Soviet border forces from retreating, to encircle and destroy them in the border zone.

                At the same time, a war plan was being developed at the headquarters of the operational leadership of the supreme command. At the direction of Jodl, they were dealt with by Lieutenant Colonel B. Lossberg... By September 15, he presented his war plan, many of his ideas were included in the final war plan.: destroy the main forces of the Red Army with lightning-fast actions,

                https://topwar.ru/5093-kak-razrabatyvali-plan-barbarossa.html
                Now, subtract the date when the directive was approved by Hitler, and you will get at least two months.
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                It is not provided on the directive of places for the resolution of the police and others.
                There is no need to refer to the fact that you know this for sure ...

                Exactly an amateur in military affairs - how the same police and SS units were supposed to act, which were supposed to provide a number of measures, including the mobilization and fight against the enemy's agents. Who was to be responsible for the creation of the prisoner of war and internee camps - the same the Wehrmacht? Who was responsible for creating the administration in the occupied territories and creating money for them? Go teach military history, verbiage ...
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                Your delirium is already just got

                You yourself got everyone with your lies, and here several authors versed in military history pointed it out to you. Now you understand that I was not the only one who exposed you.
      2. -7
        22 June 2021 13: 37
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Moreover, German intelligence has a poor understanding of the boundaries of our military districts. For example, their western district occupies the territory almost to the Moscow region.
        The pre-war data even show that they poorly represent the number of our divisions in the ZAPOVO and in the KOVO.

        This illiterate lie is refuted by declassified archival materials in the form of a map dated June 20, 1941, where a complete analysis of the forces and means of the Red Army is given:
        1. +3
          22 June 2021 17: 35
          Yeah, no words ...
          You can't even figure out the map ...
          Maybe at school on the ears of your classmates will take a train ??
          Find, according to Soviet data, eight cavalry divisions in the ZAPOVO!
          How many tank divisions, according to German data, are in the same district?
          For such an expert, there is no difference between a division and a corps ... Does life exist ???
          At the same time, the data are close to those given by me earlier on May 20, 1941.
          It seems that you see, then drag to the forum without understanding the content ...
          Well, what to talk to you about? ...
          1. -5
            22 June 2021 18: 02
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            Find, according to Soviet data, eight cavalry divisions in the ZAPOVO!
            How many tank divisions, according to German data, are in the same district?

            As if you are illiterate in military affairs - before the war, we also didn’t bast soup and tried to mislead the enemy, including with a radio game, exercises, training camps, imitating the arrival or movement of certain formations.
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            In life, she is ???

            Once again I am convinced of your absolute ignorance in military affairs, if only because the decision to deploy new mechanized corps in February 1941 was implemented in stages, because this is a lengthy process. That is why some of them were more or less equipped with equipment and people, due to the previously created connections. Some of the mechanized corps were just deploying in the spring of 1941, and most were supposed to be deployed in general in 1942-1943. in peacetime.
            That is why the Germans, having received the data, sometimes could not know the exact state of one or another unit in the mechanized corps, but assumed that it would be completed in the near future.
            There is an obvious error in assessing the combat potential of the Red Army, which is quite acceptable for such a scale of armies.
            But this is not the point, but the fact that you were foaming at the mouth to prove that Soviet intelligence could not determine exactly which tank regiment was where, and blamed it for it. Now, against the background of German intelligence data on our formations, maybe you have the courage to admit that you have in vain slandered Soviet intelligence? I think that you will start to wriggle out again, miserable verbiage ...
            1. +3
              22 June 2021 18: 42
              Yeah, what to talk about ...
              What I wrote above, that German intelligence did not know much about the number of tank divisions, you confirmed by placing a map.
              At the same time, they could not understand it.
              You have not refuted the fact that the Germans represented the structure of our districts located behind the KOVO and ZapVO even worse.
              Thus, you have not refuted the fragments of the maps posted by me above.

              In addition, it did not reach you that the map posted on the website of the RF Ministry of Defense has long been in the public domain. In my articles on intelligence, fragments of this map and another similar one were posted even more than two years ago!
              But for you this is a revelation ...
              I say, go talk to the students. They will believe in your inventions. I'm tired of telling you attributed truths ...
              1. -5
                22 June 2021 18: 54
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                At the same time, they could not understand it.

                A vile lie - the schoolboy will figure it out in the map, because there is a table with the number of Red Army divisions for June 20, 1941. But you poked me with the May fake, on which even the units of the Red Army were not indicated. So it turns out that you don’t understand an ear or a snout in military maps, and you also pose as a "researcher". You are just a dilettante in military affairs, which is why your lies are constantly exposed.
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                You have not refuted the fact that the Germans represented the structure of our districts located behind the KOVO and ZapVO even worse.

                Why do they need the structure of our inner districts if they are intended to replenish the mobreserves? If only one book on military affairs was read, then they would have an idea of ​​how the internal districts differ from the border ones.
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                In addition, it did not reach you that the map posted on the website of the RF Ministry of Defense has long been in the public domain.

                So you deliberately lied here on the forum about the Germans' ignorance of our group, knowing about this map, in the hope that you will not be exposed. I wonder what you hoped for, deliberately perverting military history.
                Quote: AsmyppoL
                I'm tired of telling you attributed truths ...

                They caught a liar on rigging, so he does not know how to get out after he was exposed with the help of documents. Lie further, you won't lose it, liar ...
  8. +2
    19 June 2021 11: 34
    That is, if Hitler had died of appetites for the colonies, perhaps he would have come to an agreement with Britain. Not necessarily with Churchill and George VI, these two were just determined to continue the resistance, hoping that either the USSR or the United States would help (which eventually ended). But in Britain there were others like Lord Oswald Mosley and former King Edward VIII.
  9. -10
    19 June 2021 12: 30
    England wanted to strengthen its position on the world stage, deal with the USSR and defeat Germany again. Therefore, the British invested moderately in the development of German industry.

    I don’t know where these conclusions come from. Pre-war Britain was "in chocolate" - there was a sea of ​​colonies, science flourished, and US influence in European affairs subsided after WW1. In Europe, a security architecture was organized that served "formally" to cordon the USSR and blockade Germany.
    The British were quite satisfied with this - because this scheme was one of the compromises, on the one hand, that allowed them to have good income, on the other, they did not invest much. The destruction of the USSR did not promise good profits - moreover, it would destroy the architecture of European security in Britain, because Poland (which had its own ambitions) and, probably, Finland (which is less important) would become stronger. The destruction of the USSR would create a vacuum from Europe to Asia saturated with weapons and military experts, which would strengthen the positions of Japan and China in the Far East. The WB itself could not take advantage of the fruits of such destruction, the main beneficiaries would be the countries bordering on the USSR. In general, there is no motive.
    About "moderately invested in the development of German industry" - the pre-war WB is the capitalist cauldron of the time of the exit from the Great Depression. The local businessmen were interested in profits - profits are investments in production, which has high-quality and cheap labor and loans for such production. The impoverished Germany, imprisoned by sanctions, was in fact the "Taiwan" of the Interbellum - and money was thrown into it.
    A similar "trick" with "growing" was repeated at the end of the 20th century in China - money flows to where the Deshman slave is. power, deshman resources and deshman construction. Always.

    The Americans invested large sums in Germany ... Therefore, they assigned Germany a more significant role: not only to defeat the USSR, but also to help the Americans organize a new world order

    Capitalists always invest where the most favorable conditions are. In Germany at that time, they were the most profitable. In the USSR at that time, the United States was sneezing - they were much more interested in sales markets in Europe and Asia. The USA sold us patents, production lines and entire factories, allowed us to hire engineers, etc. Good picture for a plan to defeat!

    In 1939, the USSR government managed to avoid participation in the allies' scenario: not to get involved in a war against Nazi Germany and the Anglo-French predators lurking in ambush

    And in the end ...?) In general, the "trap" is good - one country was occupied and crushed by itself, the second country a year after that was nightmare with aviation and submarines in splendid isolation. But in the end that - we are still in the war with the Reich in full force - Chot is not very drawn to some cunning plan.

    ... Our government managed to relocate the border in some areas to the territory of Finland and the former Poland

    Not for long, and now it didn’t decide at all. And they put a lot of energy into the Sov.Finskaya. So it seems to me not worth writing it down as a "profit".

    From the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940, the Allied forces felt secure on the Western Front. They even began to prepare for the opening of a new front against the USSR in Finland and for air strikes on our targets from the southern direction.

    It's amazing how the author can turn the factual side inside out))) It sounds like Finland, without mutual treaties, suddenly attacked the USSR in the midst of a European war, as if there was no partition of Poland (with which France and Britain had defense treaties) between the USSR and GG. The West was getting ready to cut down the Baku oil fields - after all, at that moment we were actually a party to the conflict, and an active party at that. But unlike England, which only "wanted" something there, we quite actively worked as "Molotov breadbins". Nevertheless, the West is still bad and ugly)) And we are in chocolate ^ __ ^))


    I summarize - no matter what reasonable thoughts or interesting facts are in the article further, there is a terrifying leftist propaganda, turning the story out like a grandma's bag. It reads like "the life of the saints from Marx" - all the bad and ugly, one Stalinist USSR chOtky.
    1. +17
      19 June 2021 15: 06
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      In Europe, a security architecture was organized that served "formally" to cordon the USSR and blockade Germany.
      The British were fine with that.


      And they were not satisfied with the rapprochement between the USSR and Germany. An alliance of the SPD, moderate parties and communists was possible (although both Thälmann and Stalin initially opposed this alliance, everything could change).
      And the emergence of strong allied relations between the USSR and Germany (resources and technologies) hardly suited the British. The Thames guys understand dialectics. and decided to play ahead of the curve.
      We needed a force in Germany, which was the absolute antagonist of the USSR.
      This is the reason Hitler got the privileges (not the Weimar Democrats).
      And then set on each other (here and Poland and connect France), more conflict points (if not create) claims and grievances.
      Everyone is in shit, and the lords are in white tailcoats.
      Centuries-old British politics.
      There should not be winners (the principle is a plague for both (three, etc.) of your houses.
      But. Something went wrong.

      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      In general, the "trap" is good - one country was occupied and crushed by itself, the second country was nightmare with aviation and submarines in splendid isolation a year after that

      Something went wrong. What you ordered (but in the author's interpretation of Hitler) receive and sign.
      But as I understand it, there are no complaints about the USSR.

      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      as if there was no partition of Poland

      As if there was no absorption of Austria and the partition of Czechoslovakia?
      The USSR finally began to play by European rules.
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      all bad and ugly, one Stalinist USSR chOtky.


      Right here. absolutely agree with you.
      1. -11
        19 June 2021 15: 40
        And they were not satisfied with the rapprochement of the USSR and Germany

        This is a beautiful beautiful fairy tale, which was then sang in the ears of the GDR workers by social propagandists, whose task was to justify and summarize.
        In principle, there could be no real "rapprochement" - the USSR had little hands to influence German politics (thanks to the cordon sanitaire), which was run by LARGE CAPITALISTS in hand with people who helped to prevent the German socialist revolution in its time happened. Given the pronounced surplus of labor and the desire of the Germans for order and discipline, there was no hope that the grassroots leftist movement in such conditions would become a Factor. So the "rapprochement" of the USSR and Germany proceeded according to the openly German scenario and was rather strictly limited to areas of interest to Germany. For which, among other things, Western loans were also important - because the USSR could not give this money. The rapprochement to a critical point between the USSR and pre-Hitler Germany was a near-utopian thing in terms of political, economic, cultural, geographic and ideological factors. In the west, they rather feared not a rapprochement but some military agreements - well, that's how they actually happened. Just because it could not have happened - Poland was equally disliked by both sides.

        We needed a force in Germany, which was the absolute antagonist of the USSR

        The USSR of the late 30s was such a wondrous beast that most of the planet looked like our antagonists)) Or we are the antagonists of most of the planet. Allowing 100500 of our capable citizens to use fertilizers for the garden and vegetable garden was our trademark long before it became a German counterpart.

        It always amazes me how we like to deduce from history such constructions in which everything revolves around our country)) For 20 years while the Western countries were at the peak of military power, the USSR was building up its forces - from the state of inability to destroy Poland to the state of the first army in Europe (in number) - and "such cunning" bourgeois all this time were hatching plans, being the unconditional victors of the last war, being in an ideologically welded bloc - well, they "nishmogled" to Hitler. Funny, right sounds funny.
        1. +16
          19 June 2021 17: 06
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          This is a beautiful beautiful fairy tale that was later sang into the ears of the GDR workers by social propagandists,


          And what has liberoid propaganda hummed into your ears? And end up bombarding your opponent with these cheap tricks. There is. what to say say. and do not spread the porridge on a plate.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          In principle, there could be no real "rapprochement" - the USSR had little hands to influence German politics

          And after WWI, Germany's position did not affect German politics. Are they all covered in oil? They are all smirked (such slang is appropriate for that situation), but can this really be the cause of social upheaval? And the Germans perceived Hitler as a messiah only when he succeeded. And suddenly all at once. How so?
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          So the "rapprochement" of the USSR and Germany proceeded according to the openly German scenario.
          .
          And the USSR is certainly unprofitable?
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          and some military agreements - well, that's how they actually happened.

          If you are about a pact?
          The claim that this was the cause of the war. swoops in on the question- "" Uncle Petya you d ... cancer "
          I hope you don’t freeze such stupidity.
          The USSR broke off all contacts with Germany when the Nazis arrived. He signed a non-aggression pact (a document that the Germans had with many Europeans.
          And a week later WWII began.
          And considering that before that two European countries had disappeared, and the USSR long and persistently sought from Britain and France to take strict obligations in the event of a conflict, and not general promises.
          That ..?
          Who is guilty?

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          then most of the planet looked like our antagonists)) Or we are like antagonists of most of the planet


          Well looked, so what?
          And dare, who can? That is why Germany and Poland were chosen.
          But be careful
          Quote: chenia
          And then set on each other (here and Poland and connect France), more conflict points (if not create) claims and grievances.
          Everyone is in shit, and the lords are in white tailcoats.
          Centuries-old British politics.
          There shouldn't be any winners (the principle is plague on both (three, etc.) of your houses.


          It's not even the USSR that matters, but the eternal British interests.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          such cunning "bourgeoisie" all this time nurtured plans, being the unconditional victors of the last war, being in an ideologically welded bloc - well, they "nishmogled" to Hitler.


          Fight. do not speak tongues. And how the Western countries fought in the peak of military power later? But by someone else's hands. nice thing.
      2. -9
        19 June 2021 15: 59
        Something went wrong.

        Ideal otmaza supporters of leftist historiography. Like, yes, there are Masons and the Bildelberg Club, there is also world Zionism, but they are smart and cunning, cunning, but THAT'S WHAT GOES WRONG and everything is in dust. Super-twisted plans of this level are very popular in Western film production, and they also ideally enter the brains of narrow-minded ordinary people - who have a poor idea of ​​HOW certain tasks are solved, so to speak by force and in a Western way. If there are any tasks.
        And they are solved by armadas of stratobombers, atomic weapons, large-scale landing and naval operations, and the same flexible defense, if required. None of the Western capitalists would have bothered to bother with Hitler if the REALLY task was to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth. They would simply assemble the fleet and arrange the Crimean War 2.0, or stupidly, with the support of Poland, would jerk off everything to Leningrad, while in the Far East everything would be jerked off everything more or less valuable by the United States and Japan. This is the end of the fairy tale - until 1934 we were stupid meat despite our big puffed cheeks. Behind him was only 1 five-year plan, there was hunger and discontent in the country, while in the west there was an industry incomparable with ours and a lot of people who would stupidly gnaw their throats for the salary of the military, just hang. Left or right. There was no sense in the West to strangle us, it was not. These are all fairy tales.

        As if there was no absorption of Austria and the partition of Czechoslovakia?
        The USSR finally began to play by European rules

        And what does this have to do with the question of the righteousness of Britain's actions to prepare aid to the Finns or to the bombing of the Baku oil fields?
        The author complained about the "insidiousness" of the West, they say, they were preparing to pile on the USSR. They were preparing after all, after the USSR itself piled on the two countries bound by treaties with the West. Did the USSR have mutual defense treaties with Czechoslovakia? Maybe with Austria?

        All this theorist about "Hitler, molded by the West" is really nonsense of sick Soviet propagandists - so one can argue that the USSR also blinded the West - but why, did they sell zhezh? Traded. Recognized in the League of Nations? Recognized. Have you sold patents? Sold. Did you buy grain? We bought it. Did you know that the proceeds go to militarization? Of course they knew, Lord Jesus! These same burzhiks in white gloves sold us entire factories and assembly lines, and they also sent specialists to fix this business. Well, yes, of course, of course, they wanted to destroy the USSR there, like ...
        1. +13
          19 June 2021 17: 40
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          Like yes, there are masons and the Bildelberg club, there is also world Zionism, but they are smart and cunning, cunning,


          Is this kind of like an introduction? That again we write off from last year's training manual. Well guys, aliens, be original already.
          It's boring.
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          None of the Western capital would bother with Hitler if the task was REALLY to wipe the USSR off the face of the earth

          This is probably you about those who fought with four divisions of the Wehrmacht for two and a half years.
          Or, in hysterics, he threw himself on the wall like MacArthur in Korea "give the atomic bomb", otherwise the Communists will force the Potomac. Forrestal, so he jumped out the window, so he hadn’t fought yet, but only saw the Russians (in Washington). .Bo how the existence of the USSR put pressure on the most hardened fighters of the West.
          They tried to fight after WWI, but with someone else's hands (well, as always). Did not work out.
          But again you didn’t understand, I didn’t even claim that the USSR was the main goal. The main war is to weaken the main players in Europe.

          And by the way, did not Hitler be "bombed"? After all, they could. with ease, up to a point.

          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          about "Hitler, molded by the West," this is really nonsense of sick Soviet propagandists -

          I look, I'm in Ukraine. and it seems not so nonsense. How similar.
      3. -11
        19 June 2021 16: 11
        And yes, a small addition about the Soviet-Czech treaties.
        There was indeed a treaty (extremely muddy) so-called "Prague Treaty", which implied joint defensive activities between Czechoslovakia and the USSR in the event of an attack by outside forces.
        However, the treaty could not come into force without the decision of the Czech side that it, in fact, is being attacked. What do they decide "nishmogli" there.
        However, this document itself was drawn up so persistently and the form of support was prescribed in it so “exotic” that it was more of a monument to epistolary carelessness than a really concrete document.
        In contrast to this phony letter, the governments of Finland and Poland just recognized that they were being attacked and took all the necessary procedural actions)
        This is, in fact, also an important difference.
        1. +11
          19 June 2021 23: 21
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          However, the treaty could not enter into force without the decision of the Czech side that it, in fact, is being attacked.


          They were raped, and they were pleased. Happenes. Or someone persuaded them to take the "statement".
          And after that, Stalin had the right to demand from future allies such obligations that they are obliged to fulfill under any circumstances. What they could not "go for" after consulting with the "boss" (and this is where the conspiracy component appears -
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          the Freemasons and the Bildelberg Club are also world Zionism,
          -
          cross out unnecessary.
          1. -10
            20 June 2021 00: 26
            Such an epic pause came out)
            Before, I argued with leftists, then I gradually came to the conclusion that a dispute with 80% + leftists is a dispute akin to a dispute between a scientist and a priest. For the most part, the issue is discussed in the competence of "faith" or evidence such as "it is written in the Holy Scripture!" When the discussion goes down, numerous evidences of selflessness, visions, quotes come into play, and finally, the discussion always comes to the conclusion that a scientist is a devil in the flesh and a priest is a level 80 paladin. Or you can save nerve cells and epidermal cells on your fingers.
            What has always amazed me about this leftist logic is consistency.
            So -
            1) The West (no doubt collective) wants to bury us. Here he sleeps and sees (well, it's like a Fable) ->
            2) Actually, he manages to bury the RI (which, SUDDENLY, fought on the side of this most insidious west against a common enemy, and a revolution in which, also SUDDENLY organized, not without the help of this common enemy) ->
            3) But the West did not calm down on this and, like, planned to finally bury Russia completely (for the purpose of which it waited on the priest almost exactly, having mobilized armies and a military economy, as well as Poles / Finns / Japanese and a white army to a heap, who with great joy Oh yes, the West also had weapons for all these funny guys - from 1918, German, Austrian, and in bulk of their own. It's just worth comparing the action of the Russian Civil War with the action that was at this time and earlier in Europe. (Soviet dogmatics traditionally explains this by the fact that they DID FEAR. Well, of course, they feared the heroic "winner" of the Polish gentry)
            4) Well, okay, let's say yes, we were preparing, oh, how we were preparing! So they sold patents to the USSR and allowed the Bolsheviks to ride around Europe, kidnap little people, conclude contracts and agreements. They bought different things from these same Bolsheviks - among others they also bought such things that there were wagons in their colonies. And they themselves calmly watched as the USSR was industrializing. Twenty years we watched, mdams .. but we will assume that, yes, we did. Actually - if we were preparing, then should we have the fruits of such preparation in the form of dispositions or industrial preparations? Should.
            But what are we seeing? Before BB2 - Poland (such as a state bordering the USSR) - 870 tanks 824 aircraft. And the USSR has 13 981 tanks
            9397 aircraft (7758 serviceable) (and thanks to Wikipedia for these figures).
            Great, great front flank preparation! But what do the countries of the "Insidious West" have, which have been "preparing" for 20 years? So - the forces of France (at the time of the French campaign) 4656 tanks and self-propelled guns
            4469 aircraft. The forces of Britain (in the metropolis and Europe in 1939) - 1456 combat aircraft, of which 536 bombers, alas, I did not find the numbers for the tanks - but for the French they were able to collect 284 tanks on the bottom of the barrel in the very heat)

            Why did I start this reasoning on Point 4? In addition, it is likely that at the time preceding the Second World War, "this very evil, despicable West" which had been preparing for 20 years, "entangling Europe with intrigues and eager to bury the USSR" had THREE TIMES LESS TANKS. AND AT LEAST THREE TIMES LESS AIRCRAFT - than in the USSR. Like a cherry on a cake - I will note that all these forces were concentrated (OUT of the blue) not in Poland, where they (Logically) should have been waiting for a convenient moment to attack the USSR - but far from its borders.
            So - either they were preparing to bury it badly, out of hand, or something is unclean here.
            What does Soviet dogma assert in this regard? That's right! Claims that they were preparing Hitler and Co. for this purpose! ->
            1. +11
              20 June 2021 10: 19
              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              Such an epic pause came out)
              I used to argue with the leftists, then

              This is human, a cry from the heart. You and now continue to conduct last year's argument with some kind of leftist. You don't hear me, and you broadcast the uttermost (well, this is only possible according to the training manual).

              SO.
              1.First, let us understand what dialectics is.
              Not scientific- " now, not like just now. " Then you can understand the changes that took place after WWI.

              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              1) the West (no doubt collective) wants to bury us


              2. Before WWII, there was no collective West (this happened later under the auspices of the United States), and so everyone wanted to spill their own garden on their own (although create a dozen Leagues of Nations). The Yankees generally had a tertiary relationship to events in Europe (to their displeasure). Britain just kicked them out after WWI (-doing their job-free). And the United States traded with Germany (in any case) and with the USSR - the crisis and post-crisis withdrawal).
              Well, no one was going to crush to the ground (so change the system, and there will appear more accommodating ones) - there must be a system of checks and balances and tension.
              Britain has no ... has ... interests.

              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              FEAR.

              After WWI and again into battle. And what we say to our people, they will not understand. There are few willing (performers). And so by someone else's hands all the time. And they hoped that the USSR would collapse on its own (which did happen).

              Quote: Knell Wardenheart
              And they themselves calmly watched as the USSR was industrializing. Twenty years watched, mdams ..

              What was there to do? By yourself! Not a dirty job, not for Lords.
              So the idea arose to send the offended Germans. Yes, only they are more offended to the West. So it was necessary to select those who decided to take out the insult to the East (while the SPD and other moderates, well, did not burn with this desire).
              And then let them kill each other.
              And you also say that this is contrary to the principles of the Anglo-Saxons.
              Let's laugh.
              The whole picture has taken shape.

              And what has become, is not so. as fortune-telling - well, shake it out. Hitler is an independent player, and made full use of the gullibility of the haughty lords. outplayed them ...
          2. -9
            20 June 2021 00: 26
            5) Well, Hitler & Co. are prepared and bursting with heat - the "finest hour" of the Soviet propaganda campaign has come - Hitler is "deliberately fed the kus of Europe so that he flooded to the East."
            Like such an insidious plan - let us restore a common enemy in BB1, who put a bunch of our people, whom we scratched with restrictions for years and who was worth such an effort to drive into a bottle - and let's throw him at the Bolsheviks! ohoho!
            To which, incidentally, still scratch, and decently. But France, it is much closer and warmer. And Belgium. And Poland. Etc. But, of course, the French were downright people - they agreed without batting an eye :-) Next, LET'S ALLOW the plan, the "Lord God" level did send Hitler to the East. Through the conquest of France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Yugoslavia, Norway, etc., etc. Well, like a plan, yes ..-->
            6) Here is our subject in the East - finally began to act. In theory, London-Washington should open a shampoo, but no.
            On July 12, 1941, we signed an agreement with the British to fight against Germany (OUT OF THE BOARD!)
            On June 24 of the same year, Roosevelt unblocked the accounts of the USSR in the USA (locked for the Finnish war)
            November 7, the United States extended Lend-Lease to the USSR
            On September 24, the USSR joined the Atlantic Charter - AG of the US + UK Coalition.
            To summarize on point number 6 - just the "plan" started working as it should, but at that moment the West is doing what? :-) It helps the USSR, negotiates with it, provides diplomatic and later material support. By the diplomatic standards of those years, practically out of hand, taking into account the "warm" relations that preceded it.
            WHERE IS THE LOGIC? What do the Soviet dogmatists carry about this? Usually they carry some kind of game about the fact that the Lend-Lease was garbage and that they were pulling with the second front. Well, yes, bullshit - whose aluminum was it? and cars? and whose tractors were they? Try to deliver this "garbage" by sea under the work of German submariners, and in non-homeopathic quantities. And the second front - until the end of 1941, the United States did not take part in the war. Then they have a difficult one and a half years of war with Japan. In total, it was basically impossible to organize a second front before 1943 with US forces. In addition to the United States, there was no one to organize a second front - to drag Britain alone?
            7) But let's say - okay, the plan is to bury the USSR? Here we have the mobilized economies of Western countries - 100500 stratobombers, a completely unrealistic production of industrial enterprises, the world's TOP fleet, nuclear bombs (~ 5 by the end of 1945, not counting those dropped on Japan). An almost ideal disposition because the mass of Soviet forces in the Far East, and the American / British ground forces in Europe and have the strongest aviation fist, well-organized supply, etc.
            There is simply no better time for a "burial plan" - because the Soviet Union has neither a strong fleet, nor a strong strategic aviation, nor nuclear bombs. Its ground forces are divided into 2 geographic fronts (both of which are reachable by strategic aviation) and are located fairly compactly (main forces). The "West" has an almost ideal opportunity to beat down the USSR, exhausted by the war - whether in a short campaign or in a long one - and anyway, the preponderance is on the side of the West. BUT NO, it doesn't. And the parties diverge, leaving the USSR with a solid cus of Europe.

            Epilogue - It was possible to write shorter or not write at all, because I knew in advance that you and other leftists would not understand me from the word at all. Faith smoked with incense and the logic of facts are two different poles of the perception of the world, well, that's nothing - you have reddish enthusiasm, jokes, jokes and rhino stubbornness, with which I'm not going to compare) My task is to set out a sequence of facts - which clearly shows - no REAL DESIRE the West did not have to finish off the USSR. And any constructions in which they "mold Hitler to come and finish the USSR" - this is a schiz and not a plan that could well have come to mind only in one country of the world, among other delusional plans and ideas. And this is not Hitler's Germany.
    2. Fat
      -1
      20 June 2021 16: 07
      Kapets, after "Option" I have not read such alternative. The author is an absolute plus. A wonderful art project. laughing wassat crying
  10. BAI
    +11
    19 June 2021 17: 12
    For misinformation Soviet intelligence it was required to show that the direction of the main attack would be in the south

    The Germans succeeded in this. The main forces of the Red Army were concentrated in the Southwest direction.
    And further. And how many intelligence services did the USSR have in 1939?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +8
      19 June 2021 22: 21
      Quote: BAI

      And further. And how many intelligence services did the USSR have in 1939?

      There is no description here.
      1. The Intelligence Directorate of the Red Army (since 1939 - the 5th Directorate of the People's Commissariat of Defense).
      2. Main Department of State Security of the NKVD of the USSR.
      This is for 1939.
      1. +6
        20 June 2021 03: 48
        You wrote everything correctly.
        I would only complement your answer.
        The GU GB NKVD filed general intelligence reports.
        Reconnaissance materials came from the overseas intelligence, from the territorial bodies of the NKVD (from detained foreign intelligence officers, smugglers, our railway workers, etc.) and from the intelligence of the NKVD border troops. The intelligence of the NKVD border troops received information from overseas agents, defectors, smugglers, detained border violators, as well as from visual observation (including information from border aviation, which flew around the western borders twice a day).
        Materials from the GU GB NKVD were sent both to the intelligence department of the General Staff (formerly the 5th department of the Red Army), and directly to Stalin and the Government. Some documents could be sent to one of the addresses.

        Materials in the intelligence reports also came through two independent channels: from the intelligence agency and from the intelligence agencies of the military districts. The reconnaissance of the districts had their own secret agents and conducted visual observation of the enemy's territory.
        The summaries of the intelligence departments of the districts were sent not only to the intelligence department, but also to neighboring districts. This led to the fact that the intelligence services of the neighboring districts had to recheck the information received about the deployment of enemy troops at the junctions of the districts.

        I would also note that there are many requests from the intelligence department to the NKVD to clarify the information of the military on the deployment of enemy troops. At the same time, the NKVD sent requests to the intelligence department to assess the information they provided.
        1. -12
          20 June 2021 14: 25
          Quote: AsmyppoL
          This led to the fact that the intelligence services of the neighboring districts had to recheck the information received about the deployment of enemy troops at the junctions of the districts.

          This nonsense should not be taken seriously - the tasks of the intelligence department of the districts could only be set from the Main Department of the General Staff, and if such a command was not received, then no one will ever double-check someone else's information, if it does not relate to this district.
          Quote: AsmyppoL
          I would also note

          It would be better to do an educational program, because in addition to the intelligence of the NKVD and the General Staff of the General Staff of the People's Commissariat of Defense, the headquarters of the NK Navy and some structures in the People's Commissariat of Foreign Affairs conducted intelligence. Moreover, the People's Commissariat of State Security, created in February 1941, also had intelligence structures.
  11. +5
    20 June 2021 03: 17
    Quote: BAI
    For misinformation Soviet intelligence it was required to show that the direction of the main attack would be in the south

    The Germans succeeded in this. The main forces of the Red Army were concentrated in the Southwest direction.
    And further. And how many intelligence services did the USSR have in 1939?

    Only in the memoirs of marshals and generals this fact is not disclosed ... Stalin is to blame, who allegedly stupidly decided to place the main forces in the South-West direction ...
    At the same time, when a decision was made on the required number of mechanized corps, Stalin asked this question to all commanders of military districts. Based on their answers and their considerations, the General Staff determined the number and deployment of these corps ...
    The lack of reliable information about the possible locations of the mobile groupings led to the fact that, for example, in the Western Military District, the locations of the anti-tank brigades identified by the General Staff turned out to be far from the breakthrough points of the 2nd and 3rd tank groups. Even more could be said. There was not a single such brigade on the southern flank of the district. there intelligence until June 22, 1941 did not see a large mobile group.
    The KOVO anti-tank brigades were supposed to cover, including the attack on the southern flank: from Romania, where there were no German tanks, but intelligence confidently reported the presence of 10 German tank and motorized divisions ...
  12. Fat
    -9
    20 June 2021 16: 40
    Former committee members fuck each other's brains in vain attempts to find the culprit in the failure of the USSR project.
    This is the only way I can assess the collision of outstanding experts on the pre-war situation.
    But in fact - everything was spit on by and large. Nobody prepared for a big war in Europe
    Have you ever played a tank general? It is difficult for the German army to steer there, taking into account the weather, but it can be solved in a short time. It was more difficult to bring the south of France to its knees.
    So I don't believe the author's arrivals. I'm not going to pull that by the ears ... It all depends on the fullness of the glass.
    Sorry, the ugly feeling from the text of the article remains.
    1. -13
      20 June 2021 17: 17
      Quote: Thick
      So I don't believe the author's arrivals. I'm not going to pull that by the ears ... It all depends on the fullness of the glass.
      Sorry, the ugly feeling from the text of the article remains.

      I have not only such a feeling from the article, but from all his "creativity", because it is obvious that he is fulfilling an order, or decided to make a "name" for himself among those who know little about military history. And hiding his name and surname best of all confirms this - for him it is tantamount to maintaining a state secret, because he is afraid of responsibility, like a naughty cat.
  13. 0
    8 August 2021 12: 38
    Therefore, since 1936, a mothballed network with radio stations was created along the Oder to monitor the enemy who could occupy this part of the country.


    Along what-what?
    1. +1
      8 August 2021 12: 58
      This was already discussed during the discussion ...
      The meaning of the article was distorted when processing the text.

      The point should be that in the event of a war with France and Poland, part of the territory in the east will have to surrender and hold the line along the Oder River.