The myth of the "stupid cavalry" Voroshilov

Marshal K. E. Voroshilov receives a parade in Kuibyshev on November 7, 1941

140 years ago, Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov was born, statesman and military leader, Marshal of the Soviet Union. A man who has come a long way from a simple worker to the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR, always devoted to the Motherland.

Revolutionary

Born February 4, 1881 near Lugansk in the family of a poor worker. Clement knew hunger as a child and begged for alms with his younger sister. From a young age he worked as a shepherd and miner. He had no opportunity to get a good education - two years in a zemstvo school. Became a worker. Since 1903 in the Bolshevik Party. Leader of the Lugansk Bolshevik Committee and the Lugansk Soviet.

The usual career of the then revolutionary: organizer of strikes, prison, training of military squads (during the First Revolution), underground activities, multiple arrests and exile. He spent several years in exile in the Arkhangelsk and Perm provinces. During the First World War he worked at the Tsaritsyn artillery plant, was exempted from conscription. After the February Revolution he returned to Lugansk.

Member of the October Revolution, one of the organizers of the All-Russian Extraordinary Commission (VChK). In 1918, at the head of the red detachments, he defended the Donbass from the Germans, then became commander of the 5th Army of the Red Army. After that, he commanded the Tsaritsyn group of troops, together with Stalin distinguished himself in the defense of Tsaritsyn. Here Voroshilov and Stalin repulsed the "attack" of Trotsky, who tried to oust them. Then Kliment Voroshilov was a member of the Military Council of the North Caucasian Military District, assistant commander and a member of the RVS of the Southern Front, commander of the 10th Army.

In 1919, the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, the commander of the troops of the Kharkov District, the 14th Army and the Internal Ukrainian Front. From November 1919 to March 1921 he was a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 1st Cavalry Army. During the Civil War, for the first time received a personal revolutionary weapon - a golden checker with the emblem of the Republic. In 1921-1924. - Member of the South-Eastern Bureau of the Central Committee of the RCP (b) and commander of the troops of the North Caucasus District. In 1924 - Commander of the Moscow Military District, member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR.

V. I. Lenin and K. E. Voroshilov among the delegates of the X Congress of the RCP (b) - participants in the liquidation of the counter-revolutionary insurrection in Kronstadt. 1921 g.

People's Commissar of Defense and Marshal of the Union

From 1925 to 1934 - People's Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs, Chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic. From 1934 to May 1940 - People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR. Since 1935 - Marshal of the USSR. Since 1938, chairman of the Main Military Council. In August 1939, he headed the Soviet delegation at the negotiations of the USSR, England and France.

Under the leadership of Kliment Efremovich, a tremendous amount of work was done to reorganize and build the Armed Forces of the USSR. He carried out work on technical re-equipment, development and expansion of the military education system, training and education of troops. He took part in the pre-war "purge" of the army.

During the years of the dominance of liberal myths, repression in the Armed Forces was assessed only negatively. However, then detailed, factual materials appeared that show that the "purge" of the army led to the improvement and strengthening of the USSR Armed Forces. The military opposition (part of the "fifth column"), which, during Hitler's attack, was supposed to raise a rebellion against Stalin, was eliminated, and the cadres were rehabilitated.

The Soviet command made a number of mistakes in the training of troops, including in their technical readiness. This affected the course of the Finnish campaign of 1939-1940.

For his mistakes in May 1940, he was removed from the post of People's Commissar of Defense. But he did not fall into disgrace, Stalin appreciated Voroshilov's loyalty. Appointed Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars (SNK) of the USSR and Chairman of the Defense Committee under the SNK.

During the Great Patriotic War, he was a member of the high command: a member of the State Defense Committee (GKO), Headquarters, led the troops in the northwest direction, the partisan movement.

He did a lot for the development of the partisan movement, improved the guerrilla control system. The central headquarters of the partisan movement through the efforts of Kliment Voroshilov became a powerful governing body. He solved many supply problems, aviation transportation and training of partisans.

From April 1943 he headed the Trophy Committee. The trophy service played an important role in the collection of captured equipment, weapons, ammunition, fuel, scrap metal and other valuables, as well as in helping the population freed from the Nazis.

After the war, Voroshilov continued to be a member of the top leadership of the USSR.

He died on December 2, 1969.

He was buried in Red Square in Moscow near the Kremlin wall.

Even during the life of the Marshal, Lugansk - Voroshilovgrad was named after him, two Voroshilovsk and Voroshilov (Ussuriysk) appeared.

Twice Hero of the Soviet Union, Hero of Socialist Labor, awarded 8 Orders of Lenin, 6 Orders of the Red Banner, Order of Suvorov 1st degree, etc.

General Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks I. V. Stalin with Marshal of the Soviet Union K. E. Voroshilov in 1935

Opinions of contemporaries about the marshal

Lenin met Voroshilov in 1906.

The leader of the revolution had a low opinion of

"Village head"

"Voroshilov-Balalaikin".

Obviously, the difference in the social origin and living conditions of the two revolutionaries affected. Clement was a beggar in childhood, begged, then a proletarian, did not receive a good education. However, Lenin valued Voroshilov for his unwavering proletarian loyalty to the party, communist ideals and the people. It did not have a "double bottom" like many revolutionaries who came from abroad. In boots, a cap and a blouse under a cheap coat was a devoted man, a favorite of the workers and a bright orator from the people.

Stalin's Foreign Minister Molotov was not a friend of Voroshilov, but he also noted the loyalty of the People's Commissar of the Party and personally to Stalin. Although Kliment Efremovich could express his personal opinion, as it was in 1927 about the policy in China. He was distinguished by bright and crushing peasant-proletarian simplicity in speeches.

Marshal Zhukov believed Voroshilov

"Dilettante in military affairs."

Stalin's choice in favor of Voroshilov when he was appointed head of the USSR Armed Forces is quite understandable.

He followed Lenin's logic. Joseph Vissarionovich knew Clement well, was disposed to him. Unlike the same Frunze, Voroshilov did not have a political instinct, a talent for a commander and military erudition. But unlike Trotsky, he was devoted to Stalin, the party and the people. He helped to defeat the "fifth column" in the country, which was one of the main reasons for the Great Victory.

He made up for the shortcomings with great dedication, energy, efficiency and hard work. Having made his way from a simple worker to the People's Commissar of Defense, he retained his simplicity and sincerity, while greatly growing intellectually. He created the country's new Armed Forces, traveled among the troops, conducted exercises and conferences. With all his might, he consistently and methodically built up the might of the Red Army. The troops respected and loved him.

Member of the State Defense Council of the USSR Kliment Voroshilov holds the Stalingrad sword after the presentation ceremony in the conference hall of the Soviet embassy during the Tehran conference

The cavalry myth

In perestroika and democratic Russia, a myth was created about

"Stupid cavalry"

Voroshilov and Budyonny, who allegedly clung to the outdated experience of the Civil War, fettered the development of the USSR Armed Forces, hindered their mechanization and put “outdated” cavalry in the first place. That was one of the reasons for the most difficult defeats of the Red Army in the initial period of the war.

In particular, Voroshilov was quoted at the 1934th Party Congress in January XNUMX:

"It is necessary ... once and for all to put an end to the wrecking 'theories' about replacing the horse with the machine."

However, this is a phrase taken out of context.

In addition, the People's Commissar spoke about the horse population in agriculture, and not about the army. The point was that, despite the mechanization of agriculture, the need for which no one denied, a horse is still needed in the village.

And in the section devoted to the Red Army, Kliment Efremovich said something different: not a word about cavalry. And a lot about

"War of motors".

The People's Commissar noted the need for forced motorization, mastering the production of new motors.

In 1940, there was a large reduction in cavalry in the army: in 1937 there were 7 cavalry departments, 32 cavalry divisions (of which 5 mountain cavalry and 3 territorial), 2 separate cavalry brigades, 1 separate and 8 spare cavalry regiments.

The number of red cavalry in peacetime states was 195 thousand people. In 1940, it was planned to leave 5 departments of cavalry corps, 15 cavalry divisions, 5 mountain cavalry divisions, 1 separate cavalry brigade and 5 reserve cavalry regiments with a total number of 122 thousand sabers.

Instead of the disbanded cavalry divisions, they created tank and mechanized.

In early 1941, the People's Commissar of Defense Timoshenko and the chief of the General Staff Zhukov presented Stalin with a note outlining the scheme for the mobilization deployment of the Red Army. On its basis, on February 12, 1941, a draft mobilization plan was prepared. According to it, the army had 3 cavalry directorates, 10 cavalry and 4 mountain cavalry divisions, as well as 6 reserve regiments.

The total number of cavalry was reduced to 116 thousand people.

This plan was even exceeded. And by the beginning of the attack of the Third Reich, only 13 cavalry divisions remained in the Red Army.

The war showed that the reduction in cavalry was rushed.

The importance of cavalry in the modern "war of motors" has been underestimated.

In Russia, with its vast expanses, the lack of good roads and large forests, it was the cavalry that turned out to be a very effective branch of the army.

Horses were transport (horse-drawn) that perfectly suited Russian conditions. They had better cross-country ability than German cars and armored personnel carriers and did not require fuel. They could act in muddy roads and snowfalls.

The cavalry was used for reconnaissance, raids on the rear of the enemy, violations of communications in order to disorganize the control and supply of the enemy, and to strengthen the partisan forces.

Also, in the conditions of the weakening of the armored forces in the first period of the war (heavy losses), mobile units were required to develop the first success of offensive operations, break into the deep rear of the enemy, create "cauldrons".

Zhukov already on July 15, 1941 proposed to form light cavalry divisions (3 thousand sabers).

By the end of the year, there were already 82 light-type cavalry divisions (without tanks, divisional artillery, anti-tank defense and air defense, sappers and rear services).

In 1942, the cavalry divisions were reduced to corps, which (in the place with tank corps and armies) played a large role in the defeat of the Wehrmacht.

Tanks and cavalry complemented each other perfectly.

In addition, the cavalry corps, which did not require many tons of ammunition and fuel, could advance deeper than motorized formations.

And finally, they could easily do without good roads. Moreover, they even knew how to fight without them at all.

Comments

[Theodore]

Well, he was a shooter! VOROSHILOVSKY.

[GTYCBJYTH2021]

Quote: Theodore

Well, he was a shooter! VOROSHILOVSKY.

You said right ....... Here are horses with people on their backs, intelligence in the rear rode the enemy .... sabotage .... Cossack lava on the Nazis in the snow ..... A man is not a horse, feed that regularly it is necessary ... and not straw, oats and hay ...... Starter !!!! Tell us what year the cavalry units were left without rolling stock ... were withdrawn from the Armed Forces and transferred to the border detachments ... Uncle Vladimir Trofimovich on his father's side served on the border in Tajikistan in 1955, there is no equipment, only horsebacks ...

[Uncle lee]

We are the red cavalry
And about us
Epic epics
Lead the story:
About how clear in the night
About how rainy days
We are proud
We go boldly into battle

Chorus:

Lead us, Budyonny, bravely into battle!
Let the thunder rumble
Let the fire all around:
We are all selfless heroes
And our whole life is a struggle!

Budyonny is our brother
All the people are with us.
Order: “Do not hang heads
And look ahead! "
After all, Voroshilov is with us,
First red officer
We will be able to shed blood
For the USSR.

[Uncle lee]

Yes, not all the White Guards were wiped out by Budyonny and Voroshilov! There are still mental deficiencies. To them, Soviet power is like a bone in the throat ...

[hagen]

Quote from Uncle Lee

There are still mental deficiencies. To them, Soviet power is like a bone in the throat ...

Tell me, would you also consider Tymoshenko, who signed the Act on the Acceptance of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense in May 1940, to "mental deficiencies"?

[depressant]

Here is the beginning of this Act you are talking about, dear Hagen.

"1. The approved regulation on the People's Commissariat of Defense, approved by the Government in 1934, is outdated, does not correspond to the existing structure and does not reflect the current tasks assigned to the People's Commissariat of Defense. Newly created departments:
Main Directorate of the Red Army,
Department of Military-Technical Supply,
Supply Office, ... "
And so on ...
Colleague Hagen, this document only says that in those days people very quickly learned from the identified shortcomings of the management apparatus and instantly corrected them to the best of their understanding of how and what to do. Here we say: The Civil War ended in 1919. This is if I'm not mistaken about the end date. But it is not over! Those who believe that it is over are mistaken, it simply passed into a latent phase, taking on an outwardly peaceful form and manifesting itself only in repression. And in the conditions of the latent phase of the Civil War, someone learned faster, and someone more slowly. But time was running out! It was moving inexorably towards the date when the united West would unleash the terror on us, which we call the Great Patriotic War.
Because it was like this: you do not have time to understand how to do here, now, at this historical moment, so I will replace you, not doubting that soon you will understand that I was right. This is how statesmen worked then. Therefore, each year of that time went down in the history of our country as a significant contribution to its future victory.

[hagen]

Quote: depressant

this document only says that in those days people very quickly learned from the identified shortcomings of the management apparatus and instantly corrected them to the extent of their understanding of how and what to do.

You are not a military man, you are forgivable. I accepted and handed over positions (not with such acts, of course - the People's Commissar is a god of the last level ), and therefore I will tell you that this act can be called devastating and destructive. But the time was such that Stalin needed a person who was personally devoted to him in this position. Because a significant part of the generals and senior officers were previously very seriously associated with the figure of Trotsky. And the issue of conspiracy in the ranks of the Army and Navy is not an anecdote, but the harsh realities of those days. But the Winter War showed Stalin the ability of the Red Army in business and both horrified him, and also inspired Hitler. Therefore, extraordinary measures were taken. This is, if only briefly.

[depressant]

Dear colleague, I agree with you! I know about this conspiracy - it was. Heads flew in 37th. Here, at VO, two years ago we discussed this topic with regards to Tukhachevsky. And there was no time to correct punctures by the forces of the person who allowed them or did not see them. If you cannot, do what is available to you, and make room for the more far-sighted. And if you are to blame, you will answer as it should. How far from our reality is this approach!
And I keep thinking about how difficult it was then, in the era of the secret phase of the Civil War.

[hagen]

Quote: depressant

how difficult it was then, in the era of the secret phase of the Civil War.

I completely agree with you. In addition, it is necessary to take into account the inevitability of a war between Germany and the USSR. Therefore, I am extremely struck by the lightness of the negative assessment of Stalin's work from both Medvedev and Putin.

[depressant]

Well, you see, some people tend to increase their own importance not at the expense of personal achievements, but by lowering the self-esteem of others. But this is in everyday life. Statesmen should not do this with the past of their country. From this, the industry of today's Russia will not hesitate. Hiding a country's past will not raise its status in the eyes of the rest of the world. It seems to me that this is a policy of fitting into world capitalism. The signal sent by Putin and Medvedev abroad, they say, do not hesitate, we are with you. They have to do this in conditions when society and the population are still very Soviet in terms of mentality. Abroad they see this, and it becomes the basis of mistrust in our leadership. After all, there is an understanding that the mentality is such a state of the people, from which one can get out into another mentality only after centuries. Or even stay the same. And this understanding is extended to Putin and Medvedev ...
I read a long article by Putin about the Second World War. Everything is said there correctly, but he did walk around Stalin. Like, repression. He did not understand that the country had not yet emerged from the confrontation with the past, with which it was necessary to tie up as soon as possible on the eve of a big war. Or maybe he understands everything, but curtsies have to be done.
It didn't seem to help him.
And further. Shortly before the publication of Putin's article on VO, a large discussion took place on the Great Patriotic War. And what? I began to read the president's article, and it turned out that she reproduced the discussion literally from the comments. Presidential speechwriters didn't strain too much))))

[Kisa]

Quote: depressant

the country had not yet emerged from the confrontation with the past

here's a logical result - two classes of education or Manstein
16 of whose ancestors were Prussian generals with these tank wedges at the start of the war. reset to civilian officers, then in 37m again ... professionalism versus loyalty is still relevant

[mmaxx]

Which were with those and entered Berlin.
Check out the biographies of our military. Anyone. From bottom to top. Redneck. Well, what to take from them. Against the Mansteins and Kleists.
The result is only somehow illogical.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

I will support YOU. I agree. Personally, I am generally surprised how a country divided by revolution and civil war, almost destroyed, was economically able to industrialize and enter the Second World War, and win this war. Whoever said anything and compared tsarist Russia with the RSFSR and the Union, but the economic breakthrough was made, a tremendous one. For reference: many of the weapons were ordered by the tsar abroad. Even the legendary cruiser Varyag was built in the USA. With regards to Marshal Tukhachevsky, with all due respect, but the nobleman Tukhachevsky should have understood that in the workers 'and peasants' army, there is no place for nobles. I personally know about his general "talents" only "successes" in suppressing peasant revolts.

[Alexander Greene]

This act was drawn up by Voroshilov himself, he knew that he was going to another post and the People's Commissariat of Defense had been preparing this act for two weeks, which described all the existing problems so that Tymoshenko would quickly get into business .. This speaks of Voroshilov's high honesty and partisanship.

[depressant]

That's it, then. Such were the people! Spirit Titans! That is why we won the war.

"We have such a concern,
our concern is simple -
would be a native country,
and no other worries.
And in the snow and in the wind,
and in the stars the night flight
me my heart
calls into the alarming distance ... "

Not exactly from that time, but reflects!

[mat-vey]

Quote: Alexander Green

This act was compiled by Voroshilov himself

Look at the "act" according to which Voroshilov himself took the case ... And then such loud screams "oh, oh ... and there, and here", but was it "and there, and here." did not create .. and from what to create and provide? And who brought military education to the modern system? And who from that incomprehensible semi-territorial, half-militia state began to lead the army into the form that was needed for the war? For all this, just the political will was needed. no longer a politician, but a military man was needed.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Hagen

Quote from Uncle Lee

There are still mental deficiencies. To them, Soviet power is like a bone in the throat ...

Tell me, would you also consider Tymoshenko, who signed the Act on the Acceptance of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense in May 1940, to "mental deficiencies"?

When discussing the "mental shortcomings" I have the following question - how many months did Tymoshenko work in the People's Commissariat of Defense in commissions for studying the state of the army and who are the other members of these commissions?

[Vladimir_2U]

Not a genius, but not, although during the Great Patriotic War he did not command troops, which shows a sober assessment of his abilities I.V. Stalin.
And much less fouled him than Budyonny, against whom the myth of the "stupid cavalryman" was most exaggerated.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

although in the Great Patriotic War he did not command troops,

Commanded, but completely failed in office commander of the North-West direction.

It is on his conscience that the blockade of Leningrad took place so fast and so disastrous.

August 17, 1941. - occupied Narva. It is 134 km in a straight line from Leningrad. Stalin to Voroshilov:

"It is quite possible to eliminate this danger, since the Germans have little strength here, and the new three divisions thrown in to help, with skillful leadership, could eliminate the danger. WITHTavka cannot put up with the mood of doom and the impossibility of taking decisive steps, with conversations that everything has already been done and nothing else can be done. "

Voroshilov responds ... by creating volunteer labor battalions with antediluvian weapons. The militiamen were supplied with outdated rifles,ikami and daggers. , introduces the election of commanders.
Leads to ... attack

The huge potential of the artillery of the fleet is NOT used at all, artillery defense is not organized.
Stalin Voroshilov, 22 Aug:

Such a defense cannot be considered satisfactory ... We think that the defense of Leningrad should be primarily artillery defense. ... If you don't have enough army artillery, you could remove the artillery from the ships and install it in the entire encirclement of Leningrad.
... The link to your congestion is ridiculous. We are no less overloaded than you. You are simply disorganized people and do not feel responsible for your actions, which is why you act as on an isolated island, without reckoning with anyone.

The indiscriminate rapid retreat continues, but the city lives as in peacetime, there are almost no measures to evacuate people, enterprises, and Stalin urgently sent a Commission to organize it: due to the inaction of the local leadership, he is forced to lead manually
Stalin, August 29:

“If this continues, I'm afraid that Leningrad will be surrendered stupidly stupidly, and all the Leningrad divisions risk being captured. What are Popov and Voroshilov doing? They do not even report on the measures they think to take against such a danger. They are busy looking for new lines of retreat, and in this they see their task. Where did they get such an abyss of passivity and purely rural obedience to fate? "

Stalin Voroshilov and Zhdanov ::

"In Tikhvin there are 2 air divisions 39 and 2, both are at your disposal, but they did not receive assignments from you"

.

These two divisions, fighter and bomber - Voroshilov and Zhdanov "forgot" about their existence
September 9, Stalin to Voroshilov:

"We are outraged by your behavior, which is expressed in the fact that you only inform us about the loss of this or that area by us, but usually you don't say a word about what measures you have taken in order to stop losing cities and stations. ... What is your aviation doing, why does it not support the actions of our troops on the field? "

Voroshilov was recalled in disgrace and Zhukov was sent to Leningrad to save the situation.

On April 22, 1942, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) adopts a resolution on unsatisfactory performance K.E. Voroshilov during the period from the Finnish War to the Second World War.

"... Comrade Voroshilov did not cope with the assigned task and could NOT organize the defense of Leningrad... In view of the above, the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) decides:

1. To admit that Comrade Voroshilov did not justify himself in the work entrusted to him at the front.

2. Send comrade Voroshilov to the rear military work "

This is who deserved what Pavlov received

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

He also commanded in a very responsible direction, but completely failed as a commander of the North-West direction

Thank you, I was not in the know.

[mat-vey]

/goodlec.com/-isayev-heroes-civil-in-1941-1945-years-k/
A. Isaev probably still inspires more confidence.

[Vladimir_2U]

I was not aware of Voroshilov's command in principle.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I was not aware of Voroshilov's command in principle.

Ah-ah ... well, anyway, I think it will not be superfluous to get acquainted with Isaev's opinion - a person does not deduce value judgments without studying the archives.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Thank you, I was not in the know.

Not at all.

Near Leningrad, many "marked": read here: https://rg.ru/2020/05/09/rodina-desiat-perelomnyh-dnej-v-otnosheniiah-stalina-i-voroshilova.html

[chenia]

Quote: Olgovich

but completely failed as a commander of the Northwest direction.

To a greater extent, the responsibility for everything was borne by the commanders of the Northern Fleet and the NWF.
The commander-in-chief coordinates the actions of the fronts, and for the "successes" in 1941, first of all, the "merits" of the front commanders.

In the southwestern Budyonny insistently demanded a withdrawal from near Kiev, Kirponos convinced the Headquarters that he would hold. In command and control of troops, the commanders of the troops had sufficient independence.

[mat-vey]

Quote: chenia

but completely failed as a commander of the Northwest direction.

Voroshilov "organized" the very first boiler during the Second World War.

[icant007]

Quote: chenia

but completely failed as a commander of the Northwest direction.


To a greater extent, the responsibility for everything was borne by the commanders of the Northern Fleet and the NWF.

He also commanded the Leningradsky front, though only 9 days, but during the most intense period from September 5 to September 14, 1941.

[mat-vey]

The counterstroke near Soltsy (July 14-18, 1941) is one of the first successful counterattacks against German troops, inflicted by Soviet troops in the area of ​​the city of Soltsy. As a result of the counterattack, the German army was thrown back 40 kilometers. This counterattack, as well as the subsequent defense of the Red Army near Luga, delayed the enemy's advance on Leningrad by almost a month, which allowed the Soviet command to gain time to prepare the city for the upcoming defense.
There, a bunch of secret documents were seized, including the use of tanks by the Germans.

[Uncle lee]

Well, Voroshilov failed the Leningrad defense ... And in November 41 the Germans were near Moscow, is Voroshilov also to blame?

[Olgovich]

Quote from Uncle Lee

Well, Voroshilov failed the Leningrad defense ... And in November 41, the Germans were near Moscow, is Voroshilov also to blame?

Of course, as People's Commissar of Defense from 1925 to 1940 year.

In what ruin he left the army in 1940 - clearly spelled out in "The act of transfer of the Ministry of Defense from Voroshilov to Timoshenko" dated May 8, 1940.

You will read and see all the causes of the disaster of 41 years

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Uncle Lee

Well, Voroshilov failed the Leningrad defense ... And in November 41 the Germans were near Moscow, is Voroshilov also to blame?

Well, who transferred the NPO to his replacement, without even having accurate data on the number of his subordinates? But having 1080 titles of the current regulations, manuals and manuals (while the main ones, including the combat manuals, are outdated long ago) and 1400 states and timesheets according to which the troops lived and were supplied and which were not approved by anyone and were issued for leadership as temporary.
There was a special polar fox with mobilization: there are no mobilization plans, the last re-registration of those liable for military service is dated 1927 (yes, yes, no one has been doing this for thirteen years), the number of those liable for military service includes 3 untrained people, whose training plan for which the NCO also does not have ... Moreover, NPOs have no plans at all to retrain specialists and retrain poorly trained personnel.

[Uncle lee]

If he was such a pest, then why didn't Stalin put him against the wall? Here one cannot buy off devotion! And for less progress they got a tower .... Apparently, not everything is so simple.

[Vlad Malkin]

Uncle Lee (Vladimir)

It is quite possible that not everything is so simple! But in general, Voroshilov was untouchable, since under Tsaritsin he saved Stalin's life. And he once told Beria: "Do not touch Voroshilov!"

[mmaxx]

I think that even now to approach our Defense Ministry with the same objectivity as in 40, the report will be just as devastating.
Only now have we learned to write reports. So, that would not notice anything and do nothing.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Stalin Voroshilov, 22 Aug:

Which novel is the quote from?
By the time Zhukov appeared in Leningrad, the front had already been stabilized by Voroshilov.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Which novel is the quote from?

Novels artistic , according to which you were taught history, remained in the distant past, and now, at last, real DOCUMENTS are open present Stories:

Defense of Leningrad. 1941-1945. Documents and materials ... Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019.

These are telegrams, resolutions, etc.

You consider, for example, the Decree of April 1, 1942, a fiction:

The Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) adopts a resolution on the unsatisfactory work of K.E. Voroshilov during the period from the Finnish War to the Second World War.

"... Comrade Voroshilov did not cope with the assigned task and could NOT organize the defense of Leningrad. In view of all the above, the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) decides:

1. To admit that Comrade Voroshilov did not justify himself in the work entrusted to him at the front.

?

So refute, yeah!

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

By the time Zhukov appeared in Leningrad, the front had already been stabilized by Voroshilov.

See above.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

You consider, for example, the Decree of April 1, 1942, a fiction:
The Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) adopts a resolution on the unsatisfactory work of K.E. Voroshilov during the period from the Finnish War to the Second World War.

And how is this to be understood? Voroshilov's work in the period from November 30, 1939 to June 22, 1941 is estimated as April 1, 1942?

Quote: Olgovich

1. To admit that Comrade Voroshilov did not justify himself in the work entrusted to him at the front.

Now tell me what the action is. front in '42 was assessed positively?
Maybe Zhukov's leadership of the Western Front was highly appreciated?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And how is this to be understood? Voroshilov's work in the period from November 30, 1939 to June 22, 1941 is estimated as April 1, 1942?

Yes.
So what?

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Now tell me what the action is. front in '42 was assessed positively?

But the Resolution of the Politburo about Voroshilov

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Krasnoyarsk
And how is this to be understood? Voroshilov's work in the period from November 30, 1939 to June 22, 1941 is estimated as April 1, 1942?
Yes.
So what?

With the tension with which all members of the Politburo worked during the Second World War, to find time to analyze Voroshilov's work for the period a year earlier? This is an obvious stuffing. And you bought it.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

With the tension with which all members of the Politburo worked during the Second World War, to find time to analyze Voroshilov's work for the period a year earlier?

It is a DOCUMENT - with a specific date and subject on three typescripts - see. Collection

Defense of Leningrad. 1941-1945. Documents and materials ... Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019

Stalin on that Politburo:

1. The war with Finland in 1939-1940 revealed a great disadvantage and backwardness in the leadership of the People's Commissariat of Defense. In the course of this war, it became clear that the People's Commissariat of Defense was unprepared to ensure the successful development of military operations. The Red Army did not have mortars and machine guns, there was no correct registration of aircraft and tanks, there was no necessary winter clothing for the troops, the troops did not have food concentrates. Great neglect was revealed in the work of such important directorates of the People's Commissariat of Defense as the GAU (Main Artillery Directorate), the Combat Training Directorate. Directorate of the Air Force, low level of business organization in military educational institutions, etc. All this affected the protraction of the war and led to unnecessary casualties.

Comrade Voroshilov, being at that time People's Commissar of Defense, was forced to admit at the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) at the end of March 1940 the revealed inconsistency of his leadership.

Taking into account the state of affairs in the People's Commissariat of Defense and seeing that it is difficult for Comrade Voroshilov to cover such large issues as the People's Commissariat of Defense, the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) considered it necessary to release Comrade Voroshilov from the post of People's Commissar of Defense.

2. At the beginning of the war with Germany, Comrade Voroshilov was appointed commander-in-chief of the North-Western direction, which has its main task of defending Leningrad. As it turned out later, Comrade Voroshilov did not cope with the assigned task and was unable to organize the defense of Leningrad. In view of all this, the State Defense Committee recalled Comrade Voroshilov from Leningrad and gave him work on new military formations in the rear.
Stalin I.V. Works: T. 1-18.

M .; Tver, 1946-2006.

And your answer is nothing but ... language.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

Stalin I.V. Works: T. 1-18.

What does this mean? Can you give an explanation? What volume? What page? Volume 1? It cannot be there by definition. Only 13 volumes have been officially published. Volume 18, edited by R. Kosolapov? But this is not there either!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What does this mean? Can you give an explanation? What volume? What page? Volume 1? It cannot be there by definition. Only 13 volumes have been officially published. Volume 18, edited by R. Kosolapov? But this is not there either!

Gracheva.

and once again you can refute the given COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS, except language? Nothing?

So what is it about?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

and once again you can refute the given COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS, except language? Nothing?

How should I refute it? With an ax? The document contains references to Stalin, but this is not the case at the indicated address. And if not, then it is a lie. What else and how should I refute?

[Olgovich]

[quote = Krasnoyarsk] How should I refute it? With an ax? [/ quote]
Tongue, yes [quote = Krasnoyarsk] The document contains references to Stalin, but this is not the case at the specified address. And if not, then - a lie. [/ Quot] Stalin's words- This is the SECOND document from SS Grachev.

The resolution of the Politburo IS in collection of DOCUMENTS, see above: WHAT is not clear to you? How can you refute it?

Nothing? So why is your chatter empty?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Olgovich

The resolution of the Politburo IS in the collection of DOCUMENTS,

And who told you that this is a genuine document? The reference to Stalin, which does not exist in nature, is suspicious.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And who told you that this is a genuine document?

Resolution of the Politburo of April 1, 1942 r is given in COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS

Defense of Leningrad. 1941-1945. Documents and materials. Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019

What's not clear?

Go to the library and explore!

[vladcub]

"Maybe Zhukov's leadership of the Western Front was highly appreciated?" Why do you think Stalin appointed Zhukov as his deputy? Probably, Stalin took into account the REAL ABILITIES or tell me that he confused Voroshilov with Zhukov?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: vladcub

Why do you think Stalin appointed Zhukov as his deputy? Probably Stalin took into account the REAL

Zhukov was a good performer, with an iron will. He could demand and achieve the impossible. But Stalin, knowing Zhukov, did not give him the opportunity to make decisions on his own. At least at the beginning of the war. Therefore, Stalin entrusted the South and South-West with Tymoshenko, away from himself, because he knew about Tymoshenko's ability to make independent decisions. And he kept Zhukov close at hand, and through his head contacted someone. armies and even separate divisions and clarified the situation, gave orders. And, understanding the state of affairs in the West. the front is better than Zhukov, he did not give Zhukov the reserves he required, but bank them for a counteroffensive. And if Stalin had followed Zhukav's lead and squandered the reserves, it is not known how the battle of Moscow would have ended.
Therefore, Zhukov, possessing such a character, was often the representative of the Headquarters on serious fronts. He was "Stalin's fist". It was later, when Zhukov gained sufficient experience, Stalin entrusted him with the front.

[vladcub]

Now I saw your comment. : "knew about Tymoshenko's ability to make independent decisions" yeah Stalin needed an independent commander only in July 1941, and during the war he needed stupid executors?
What Stalin is not clever, but he physically could not think for everyone.
It was just that Stalin realized that Budyonny, Voroshilov and Timoshenko did not correspond to modern warfare. How else to explain that they were no longer placed even on secondary sectors of the front.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: vladcub

Now I saw your comment. : "knew about Tymoshenko's ability to make independent decisions" yeah Stalin needed an independent commander only in July 1941, and during the war he needed stupid executors?

Have you deliberately distorted the essence of my post?
When Stalin had a need to choose who to entrust the South and South-West, he chose Tymoshenko, realizing that he, unlike the then Zhukov, would not break the wood. And he kept Zhukov "with him", next to him, so that he could react quickly to Zhukov's decisions.
By the way, I doubt that instead of Tymoshenko, someone would have been better able to lead the direction. With all that happened there.

Quote: vladcub

It was just that Stalin realized that Budyonny, Voroshilov and Timoshenko did not correspond to modern warfare.

This is not the reason for Tymoshenko's "disgrace". Everything is much more complicated there.
Only two Soviet generals graduated from the Academy of the General Staff of the German Army. And who is it? Do you know?

[vladcub]

I confess: I don't know well the biography of S. K.
But I know very well that Stalin respected and appreciated: Govorov, Antonov, Rokossovsky.
With Stalin's assessment of Zhukov, it is more difficult: we personally have not heard, but Zhukov himself naturally "praises himself". Moreover, the first edition of Zhukov and the last one are different. Konev had his own "graters" with Zhukov. Rokossovsky is not a cheat

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: vladcub

But I know very well that Stalin respected and appreciated: Govorov, Antonov, Rokossovsky.

If not for the Polish "tail" of Rokossovsky, he would most likely have been a "victory marshal." Zhukov "got his mind" by the end of 43, and there was no equal to him, except for Rokossovsky. Therefore, he became the "marshal of victory"

Quote: vladcub

It is more difficult with Stalin's assessment of Zhukov: we personally have not heard

There was such a phrase of Stalin - "Zhukov fights better than Konev, and no worse than Rokossovsky"
Tymoshenko and Meretskov graduated from the Academy of the General Staff of Germany. The same Meretskov who conducted "defeatist conversations" with Pavlov.
Say, if the Germans attack and win, they will still create a Russian army and they cannot do without us. Something like this. But Stalin forgave Meretskov.

[vladcub]

In fact, judging by Zhukov's book, he is of course interested in pushing himself out, but everything Stalin took into account the REAL ABILITIES and Voroshilov and Zhukov

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

By the time Zhukov appeared in Leningrad, the front had already been stabilized by Voroshilov.

Voroshilov was removed on September 11, 1941. On September 13, Zhukov arrived in Leningrad.
By the time Zhukov appeared in Leningrad, von Leeb had bitten the bit, sent to hell with Directive No. 35, and, instead of forcing the Neva and connecting with the Finns, threw the 4th TGr into the suburbs of Leningrad to cut off the defending regular units of the Red Army from the city (von Leeb wanted to have time to take Leningrad like Berlin-45).
On September 13, the German infantry joined the offensive. On September 16, the Germans made their way to the Gulf of Finland and isolated the Oranienbaum patch. On September 17, Pushkin was captured.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Alexey RA

Voroshilov was removed on September 11, 1941 1

No one filmed Voroshilov, he was called to work in international negotiations on the preparation of a lend-lease. No one knew all the problems of the Red Army better then Voroshilov, and he was also a diplomat.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alexander Green

No one filmed Voroshilov, he was called to work in the international commission for the preparation of the lend-lease.

Yes, yes, yes ... at the height of the German offensive, when the enemy is a couple of tens of kilometers from the cradle of the Revolution, the front commander is summoned to work on an international commission. And in his place is appointed crisis manager Varangian from Moscow ... who said again Khalkhin-Gol?
You will also say that in 1940 Voroshilov was promoted for his services in building the Red Army, making him deputy chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR.

Quote: Alexander Green

No one knew all the problems of the Red Army better than Voroshilov, and he was also a diplomat.

Tymoshenko knew the problems of the Red Army much better - it was he who had to revise the Red Army after the acceptance from Voroshilov. During which, for example, it was not possible to find about one and a half thousand tanks and tankettes. The industry handed over their army, there are no certificates for cancellation - and the armored vehicles themselves are not available either.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Alexey RA

... the front commander is summoned to work on the international commission

But participation in negotiations with representatives of the United States and England at that moment was more important than commanding the front, and Stalin, realizing this, invited Voroshilov to negotiations, not Zhukov.

Quote: Alexey RA

Voroshilov was promoted for his services in building the Red Army, making him deputy chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR.

This is really a promotion, as deputy chairman, he oversaw a bunch of directions, including pure and military. Tymoshenko obeyed him.

As for the missing tanks, this should be asked from General Pavlov, he was in command of the armored department.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alexander Green

But participation in negotiations with representatives of the United States and England at that moment was more important than commanding the front.

If the front near Leningrad does not hold out, then the negotiations do not make much sense: with the fall of Leningrad, the northern route will be blocked, and the Germans will free up another couple of armies to attack Moscow.

Quote: Alexander Green

As for the missing tanks, this should be asked from General Pavlov, he was in command of the armored department.

And who to ask about the prohibition of combat training in the field at temperatures below minus ten? Or for the absence of the Disciplinary Regulations, without which some formations of the Red Army turned into a kind of partisan detachments? For the ostentatious maneuvers of 1935 and 1936, in which the Red Army units were unable to even play a ballet according to the script - did the intermediaries have to pull the situation out?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Alexey RA

If the front near Leningrad does not hold out, then the negotiations do not make much sense

It was Voroshilov who stabilized the front, which had been rolling back indiscriminately before him. A new line of defense was built by his handiwork ..

Quote: Alexey RA

ostentatious maneuvers of 1935 and 1936

The ostentatious maneuvers were not his initiative, but Tukhachevsky's groups, his accomplices did not teach the troops well.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

On April 22, 1942, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) adopted a resolution on the unsatisfactory work of K.E. Voroshilov during the period from the Finnish War to the Second World War.

Another mythologist.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Another mythologist.

a chatterbox cannot refute the DOCUMENTS with chatter.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

a chatterbox cannot refute the DOCUMENTS with chatter.

These "DOCUMENTS" were concocted by a certain V. Zhukhrai, who mowed down the illegitimate son of Stalin, and his son, the well-known former director of the State Archives of the Russian Federation S.V. Mironenko, pulled these fake documents into the light of day. Here's a family row. You can be seen in the share, since you sing along.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

These "DOCUMENTS" were concocted by a certain V. Zhukhrai, who mowed down under the illegitimate son of Stalin, and his son was a well-known former director of the State Archives

It is a COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS (telegrams, resolutions, orders, etc.

Defense of Leningrad. 1941-1945. Documents and materials... Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019

, not the stupid tales of your propagandists of the past.

Did it come, finally?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Defense of Leningrad. 1941-1945. Documents and materials. Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019

Send this encyclopedia of yours to the Leningraders for kindling. Rogue. Zhukhrai wrote this document about Voroshilov, his son led him through the archive, and R. Kosolapov, without understanding, included it in additional volumes of the collected works of I.V. Stalin. Not everything that was placed in volumes T-14-15-16-17-18 is real documents.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Send to kindle the Leningraders this encyclopedia of yours. Rogue. Zhukhrai wrote this document about Voroshilov

Nobody can pass or compose the resolution of the POLITBURO of April 1, 42.

And what for?

To defame some "Voroshilov"? To whom has this ignoramus surrendered?

2. WHO gave you the right to speak on behalf of Leningraders?
None?
So calm down, yes.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

To defame some "Voroshilov"? To whom has this ignoramus surrendered?

It was necessary for Khrushchev after the 22nd Congress of the CPSU, then they began to suppress and slander Voroshilov. Toda and Zhukhrai concocted these documents.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

It was necessary for Khrushchev after the 22nd Congress of the CPSU, then they began to suppress and slander Voroshilov.

Who is there to "denigrate" something already?

he denigrated himself and exposed himself to general ridicule, while others do not need to make efforts:

Voroshov: Gluboko realizing that huge harm, which the anti-party group of Molotov, Kaganovich, Malenkov and others could inflict on our party and the country, I strongly condemn her factional activities aimed at turning the party off the Leninist path. I fully understand the seriousness of my mistake, toWhen I supported the harmful actions of members of the anti-party group.

And HOW he changed his shoes in flight even earlier, in 1953, in general, he takes it in a hurry:

Voroshilov: The report of Comrade Malenkov, the speeches of the members of the Presidium and the Central Committee are enough fully revealed all the criminal abomination of the traitor Beria, gave an exhaustive and vivid description of this criminal adventurer.

First of all, comrades, in answering this question, I must emphasize, from myself I will say - Beria is a type of an insidious, cunning enemy, a type of a complete adventurer, an intriguer, who knew how to deftly enter into the trust of the leader, who knew how to hide his dastardly plans for a long time and wait for a convenient moment for himself. All this vile and the traitor's crime has been solved, well understood and suppressed in time.

During the life of the great Stalin, Beria was impudent, rude, arrogant, impudent, He strove everywhere and everywhere to show his "superiority" over others, did not take into account the human dignity of the people around him and especially the people subordinate to him, whether they were ministers or scientists, or his comrades at work - he treated everyone. T

Well, and after that who else to denigrate and what else? He said everything about himself.

Well, you have idols, yes ...

PS Decree of the devastating Politburo on Voroshilov -FACT

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Well, and after that who else to denigrate and what else? He said everything about himself.

And at that moment it was impossible to speak openly, Khrushchev's gang by the murder of Beria and the arrest (destruction) of his people showed their determination to destroy everyone who stands in their way. So there was no choice.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

And at that moment it was impossible to speak openly,

Those. yours turned out to be notorious cowards, hypocrites, liars, and to save their own skin did not even keep silent, but with the dirtiest words trampled Beria's comrade-in-arms into the mud.

Iconic recognition

Quote: Alexander Green

Khrushchev's gang by the murder of Beria and the arrest (destruction) of his people showed their determination to destroy everyone who stands in their way. So there was no choice.

There is always a choice. They did it. And who are they after that?

Well, you have idols ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

There is always a choice. They did it. And who are they after that?
Well, you have idols ...

Judge not lest ye be judged. An unprincipled cruel Khrushchev gang came to power, which did not stop at anything. What is the point of climbing on birth? Don't you know how much they were in 1953-1956. shot supporters of Stalin and Beria ?. Voroshilov was among those. Whoever tried after a while to remove Khrushchev from power did not work, but Khrushchev then did not dare to physically destroy them either. But he destroyed them historically - he slandered everyone. Under him, a whole commission was created to replace and clean up archives.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

An unprincipled cruel Khrushchev gang came to power, which did not stop at anything. What is the point of climbing on birth?

With this "gang" only a few were killed.

Meaning-protection of YOUR "truth."

And YOUR Khrushchev gang self-indulgently supportedread YOURS at the 1953 plenum on beria-more dirt is harder to think of.

Cowards, liars, unprincipled hypocrites, opportunists are all your idols. No one went underground, or to the barricades, but they settled down FIRMLY in the dachas and rations.

Shame ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

No one went underground, or to the barricades,

Khrushchev, having gathered around him crooks and scoundrels, carried out a powerful propaganda attack to discredit Stalin's cadres, using the weapons of all the conspirators. All the previous government and its actions were declared criminal. I'm not even talking about the labels hung in which politically illiterate people believed.
What to do in such an environment? To join the partisans, against the deceived people? - Nonsense! I did not even expect that you think so primitively. ...
Stalin's cadres acted smarter, they made it possible for Khrushchev and his Camrilla to expose themselves, which did not take long ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Khrushchev, having gathered around him crooks and scoundrels, conducted a powerful propaganda attack to discredit the Stalinist cadres

Those. your cadres turned out to be unsuitable for anything, incapable of anything, pouring dirt on beria, and they were bent over by all and sundry, even the despicable Trotskyists.

And what am I talking about?

Quote: Alexander Green

What to do in such an environment? To join the partisans, against the deceived people? - Nonsense!

Yes, that's exactly what they did before the thief

Quote: Alexander Green

Stalin's cadres acted smarter, they made it possible for Khrushchev and his Camrilla to expose themselves, which did not take long ...

They left their "beloved" people to be torn apart, and themselves sat down on special dachas and special rations and prospects ... "partisan" in their hearts.
Sale for money, you know, what is called, yes ...

Well, you have idols, yes ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

... your staff turned out to be unsuitable for anything, incapable of anything, ..

Your next comment only confirmed the primitiveness of your thinking, you see only the external form, moreover, distorted, but you cannot dig into the content.

The fact is that after the war, there were a lot of non-finishing touches, fighters who were educated and loyal to the party and communism were killed, and the Trotskyist rabble sat in the rear and in the camps. While there was the authority of Stalin, in whom the people believed, they sat quietly, and after his death they climbed out and deceived the people.

Many could not understand the situation and supported Khrushchev ex officio, therefore, the so-called "anti-party" group understood that nothing could be done without the support of the people, it was a crime to fight with their people, and they chose the right decision - they gave Nikita the opportunity to do it.

in 1957, they tried to remove him, but the politically short-sighted Zhukov helped Khrushchev stay in power until he got it all right. Only after that Khrushchev was removed.

PS I did not write this for you, it is useless to explain it to you. I wrote this for those who can think.

[vladcub]

Alexander, does not agree with you: "they began to keep silent and slander Voroshilov" Nikita Khrushchev had more things to do than "fight" with Voroshilov. He needed to fight the dead further

[aglet]

"Political Encyclopedia, 2019"
here the most important figure is 2019. finally?

[Olgovich]

Quote: aglet

"Political Encyclopedia, 2019"

It is a DOCUMENTS and MATERIALS-telegrams, orders and regulations.

Which the previous ones used to bashfully HID from people, feeding them with lies and stories.

Got it, no?

[aglet]

"Got it, didn't it?"
yes long ago it came, but the difference from you. all these modern discoveries of old facts are sucked from the thumb.

[bubalik]

These two divisions, fighter and bomber - Voroshilov and Zhdanov "forgot" about their existence

,,, well, it's certainly something

, Voroshilov, Zhdanov. For us it is unexpected and pleasant news.

Stalin: You did not understand us. Both of these air divisions are your old
divisions.

[vladcub]

In childhood and adolescence, I talked a lot with veterans of the Second World War, my mother is a participant in the Second World War, I will say that I heard from them.
.. Voroshilov did a lot to improve the shooting training of the Red Army. He introduced: "People's Commissars".
Regarding: "he solved many supply problems" comrades, do you think it is very difficult for a member of the Politburo to help with air travel? I think very much. For some reason, and: Kovpak, Saburov, Vershigor ALL praised Ponamorenko, but I don't remember Voroshilov. Who read Starinov? _ He must have detailed information about the Central Broadcast Center, I read a long time ago
About Budyonny on the site there were materials that as a commander he was weak. My grandfather, by my mother, was in the Marine Corps, defended Sevastopol. Not censored about S.M.
Why is that? By the way, the author "forgot" that Stalin criticized Budyonny before the war, and Stalin was an EXCELLENT understanding of people. If he was sure that S.M. could defend Moscow, why did he put Zhukov in command?

[aglet]

"My grandfather, by my mother, was in the Marine Corps, defended Sevastopol. He did not speak censorship about S. M."
and what is the attitude of S.M. had to Sevastopol at that time?

[Konnick]

The author did not mention one skill of the marshal, the ability to shoot accurately. Thanks to the movement "Voroshilovsky shooter" a lot of young people learned to shoot well, and when passing the standards for the second degree, they had to shoot from a combat rifle.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

The author did not mention one skill of the marshal, the ability to shoot accurately. Thanks to the movement "Voroshilovsky shooter" a lot of young people learned to shoot well,

But Isaev notes that in the German documents of the first year of the war, there are records of a large number of people killed in the head - a consequence of the large number of soldiers from the "Voroshilovsky shooter".

[tasha]

Blimey! I did not know and was incredibly surprised
It turns out that in Turkey, on the famous Taksim Square in Istanbul, next to the sculpture of the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, there are two figures in military uniform - Kliment Voroshilov and Mikhail Frunze. Their sculptures were sculpted at the personal direction of Ataturk and are included in the composition of the Republic monument.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: tasha

and Mikhail Frunze

Semyon Aralova actually

[tasha]

Thanks I'll know. Live and learn..
Here's another - it turns out that Cheburashka had a tail .. Oh, how! Discovery day I have today.

[nikvic46]

As a child, my friend and I read the exploits of Voroshilov during the Civil War. And all about him. And quite a bit about Budyonny. Over time, I realized that commanders bear the main responsibility for the armies, production facilities. And sweet myths are created about others.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: nikvic46

As a child, my friend and I read about Voroshilov's exploits during the Civil War, and all about him, and quite a bit about Budyonny.

For the commanders of the Civil War, who were stuck in those times, Pomnitsa, walked well leader and teacher at the meeting on the results of the SPV.

So, what prevented our commanding assembly from waging a war in Finland in a new way, not in the type of civil war, but in a new way? In my opinion, the cult of tradition and experience of the civil war interfered. As our command structure is regarded: have you participated in the civil war? No, I did not participate. Go away. Did he participate? Participated. Give him here, he has a lot of experience and more.
I must say, of course, the experience of the civil war is very valuable, the traditions of the civil war are also valuable, but they are completely insufficient. This is precisely the cult of the tradition and experience of the civil war that must be put to an end, and it prevented our command personnel from immediately reorganizing themselves in a new way, on the tracks of modern war.
Not the last person we have is comrade commander, the first one, if you want, in terms of the civil war, he has a lot of experience, he is a respected, honest person, but he still can’t adapt to a new modern way. He does not understand that it is impossible to immediately conduct an attack without artillery processing. He sometimes leads the shelves with a bang. If a war is waged like this, it means ruining the matter, whether it will be personnel or not, the first class will ruin anyway. If the enemy sits in the trenches, has artillery, tanks, then he will undoubtedly defeat.

The traditions and experience of the civil war are completely inadequate, and whoever considers them sufficient will surely die. The commander who believes that he can fight and win, relying only on the experience of the civil war, will die as a commander.

[bober1982]

Lenin uniquely characterizes Voroshilov, in his usual boorish manner, the culture of speech of the leader of the world proletariat, of course, left much to be desired.
Well, at least he didn't call him something like (from Ilyich's lexicon) - a horse dealer, or an archdryan and the like.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

Lenin uniquely characterizes Voroshilov

Do you believe that this is Lenin? These are the notions of rebuilders.

[bober1982]

Quote: Alexander Green

Do you believe that this is Lenin? These are the notions of rebuilders

No, this is not fiction. It can be read even in Lenin's MSS
Lenin was not restrained in abusive language, even in relation to his associates.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

It can be read even in Lenin's MSS

A specific link to that and the page is weak to make?

[bober1982]

-And for two weeks they go and talk! ..... for this it is necessary to rot in prison ....... Muscovites for six hours of bedwetting ..... foreign traders for 36 hours of bedworms
PSS Lenin, vol. 44 p. 429
-How many communists have you thrown into prison three times as severe as non-party ones ... how many bureaucrats have you thrown into prison ......
PSS Lenin t44 p. 396-400
-It would be most desirable for the section to adopt a massacre resolution against Kautsky ... raise the question of massacre to Kautsky ...
-In fact, this is not a brain, but Mr.
PSS Lenin t51 p. 47-49

[bober1982]

Quote: Alexander Green

weak to do?

Why are you doing this. devilishly!
Your lenin
PSS Lenin, volume 48, pages 226-228

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

Your lenin
PSS Lenin, volume 48, pages 226-228

I asked for a link from the PSS, where

Quote: bober1982

Lenin uniquely characterizes Voroshilov,

[bober1982]

Quote: Alexander Green

I asked for a link from the PSS, where

Ask the author of the article, I'm interested, I'll see it myself.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

Quote: Alexander Green

I asked for a link from the PSS, where

Ask the author of the article, I'm interested, I'll see it myself.

What then did they say to the author? He wrote perestroika bullshit about Voroshilov, and you go there too.

[bober1982]

Quote: Alexander Green

He wrote perestroika bullshit about Voroshilov, and you go there too

This is not bullshit, as you put it.
The fact is that Lenin really called Voroshilov that way - according to the recollections of party comrades, but this could not have happened in the PSS, since until his last days Voroshilov was a prominent statesman and so on. and leaving such characteristics in the MSS would be silly.
Lenin, who hated Russians and Russia, see PSS Lenin volume 36 - I don't give a damn about Russia, had an impeccable musical and literary taste, traveled a lot throughout Europe, knew a lot about good food, read a lot of all kinds of philosophical books, etc., and so on.
Kliment Efremovich was a typical Russian peasant, starved and beggarly in childhood, three years of education, all he could do was play the balalaika well, it is unlikely that he was well versed in Marxism-Leninism, as it is not difficult to guess.
And, therefore, Lenin treated Voroshilov with such disdain, given Lenin's own disgust for everything Russian.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

And, therefore, Lenin treated Voroshilov with such disdain, given Lenin's own disgust for everything Russian.

This is an elementary slander against both Lenin and Voroshilov. IN AND. Lenin greatly appreciated the party cadres, especially the workers. And about hatred of Russians, read his article "On the national pride of the Great Russians"

[Olgovich]

The usual career of the then revolutionary: organizer of strikes, prison, training of fighting squads (during the First Revolution), underground activities, multiple arrests and exile. He spent several years in exile in the Arkhangelsk and Perm provinces.

Why did this man, who did not work anywhere, eat deliciously and sleep well?

В

During the First World War, he worked at the Tsaritsyn artillery plant, was exempted from conscription.

During the war, he dodged the draft, dodged the army, but conducted anti-state propaganda and speeches.

What would have happened to him for this in 1941?

People's Commissar of Defense and Marshal of the Union

Not a day did not unlearn at the Academy of the General Staff, but took the highest military post and rank in the army and was not at all embarrassed that The General Staff Academy is named ... after himas well as ... Naval Academy

Under the leadership of Kliment Efremovich, a tremendous amount of work was done to reorganize and build the Armed Forces of the USSR. He carried out work on technical re-equipment, development and expansion of the military education system, training and education of troops.

The huge work on the collapse of the USSR Armed Forces is very clearly described in "The act of acceptance of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR Timoshenko S. K. from Voroshilov K. Ye. "Dated May 8, 1940

It is generally impossible to read it without swearing, but reading it you clearly understand that the wrong people were shot in 1937-40.

By the way, this Act clearly states ALL causes of the 1941 disaster

led the troops in the northwest direction

Leningrad almost gave up.

Stalin's choice in favor of Voroshilov when he was appointed head of the USSR Armed Forces is quite understandable.

Voroshilov on the Stalinists:

Deeply aware of the enormous harm that the anti-party group of Molotov, Kaganovich, Malenkov and others could inflict on our party and country, I strongly condemn her factional activities aimed at turning the party off the Leninist path.

Few people know, but not Khrushchev (he had no right), namely Voroshilov, as Chairman of the USSR Supreme Soviet, transferred Crimea from Russia to the so-called. Ukraine.

Where this man turned out to be "capable" is in the repression of his comrades-in-arms, Ukrainization and loyal service to the top leaders, and it does not matter whether Stalin, Khrushchev, or Brezhnev.

Lenin about him: "Voroshilov balalaikin"

So not a myth about a cavalryman, no.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

During the First World War, he worked at the Tsaritsyn artillery plant, was exempted from conscription.
During the war, he dodged the draft, dodged the army, but conducted anti-state propaganda and speeches.

Do you have any complaints about the legislation of Ingushetia? Or do you think that Voroshilov was familiar with the plans of the German General Staff and got a job in advance and got a job at a regime plant?
Although to send such an active "! Fighter against the regime" to the fighting army .... nu-nu. It would be very wise.

[kalibr]

That is, his main "dignity" was loyalty to those at the top ...

[smaug78]

myth-maker Samsonov ...

[sergo1914]

This stupid, that boor ... How did they even manage to build such a powerful state on the old ruins, defend and pass them on to descendants? Maybe the truth, as usual, is somewhere not there?

[Olgovich]

Quote: sergo1914

This stupid, that boor ... How are they even wiseto build such a powerful state

It's very simple: any fershal can, in theory, become a good cardiac surgeon: first will kill several dozen patients, and then learn, yes ...

[sergo1914]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: sergo1914

This stupid, that boor ... How are they even wiseto build such a powerful state

It's very simple: any fershal can, in theory, become a good cardiac surgeon: first will kill several dozen patients, and then learn, yes ...

Well, why are you talking about Vladimir Vladimirovich now?

[Olgovich]

Quote: sergo1914

Well, why are you talking about Vladimir Vladimirovich now?

1. No millions who died of hunger, hundreds of thousands of shot, millions of exiles.

2. And who trained, see. item 1

[Unknown]

It is not necessary to reduce everything to personal loyalty to comrade STALIN. Voroshilov showed himself well during the Civil War, and a member of the RVS 1-Horse. He was not a bad organizer. When creating the Red Army, he relied on the opinions of military experts, especially B.M. Shaposhnikov, with whom they jointly fought against Tukhachevsky's quirks. No one is immune from mistakes and shortcomings, and all the failures of the Finnish war should not be blamed on him. There, the command, at the army, corps and divisional levels, was not up to the mark, the leadership of G.Sh. did not heed the recommendations of B.M. Shaposhnikov. So not only K.E. Voroshilov is to blame for the failures of the initial period. By the way, at the meeting on the results of the Soviet-Finnish war, J.V. STALIN did not personally reproach the former People's Commissar. Zhukov's opinion is subjective, K.E. Voroshilov began to command the North-Western Front in the difficult time of 1941. Nevertheless, it was on this front, and under the command of Voroshilov, that the first and most sensitive counterattack was made against the Army Group North in the region of the Soltsy mountains, which Manstein reluctantly recalls in his “lost victories”. , forgotten in favor of the certainly inflated offensive of Zhukov under the mountains. Yelnei. And throughout the Second World War, K.E. Voroshilov was in full view. I.V. STALIN knew what this or that managerial worker was good for, knew how to select personnel.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

When creating the Red Army,

With TWO education classes a lot can be created, yeah ...

Quote: Unknown

.E. Voroshilov began to command the North-Western Front in the difficult time of 1941. Nevertheless, it was on this front, and under the command of Voroshilov, that the first and most sensitive counterattack was made against the Army Group North in the area of ​​the Soltsy mountains, which Manstein reluctantly recalls in his “lost victories”. This counterstrike, successful for 41 years , forgotten in favor of the certainly inflated offensive of Zhukov under the mountains. Yelnei.

Only Voroshilov has nothing to do with him: everything was conceived, planned and assembled for the offensive BEFORE him.

He's an extra, present at the impact.

He NEVER commanded anything, and when he started, he led to a quick and catastrophic blockade of Leningrad, which was noted: on April 22, 1942, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks took the decision on the unsatisfactory work of K.E. Voroshilov during the period from the Finnish War to the Second World War.

"... Tov. Voroshilov failed to cope with the assigned task and could NOT organize the defense of Leningrad... In view of the above, the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) decides:

1. To recognize that Comrade Voroshilov did not justify himself at the work assigned to him at the front.

Everything is clear and clear

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

He's an extra, present at the impact.

How interesting - both the success and the extra, and what is wrong is commanded .. You are flexible as always.

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

How interesting - both success and extra

Once again: the strike is planned, prepared BEFORE HIM, it is not sideways to it

Quote: mat-vey

what was wrong, he commanded

And the direction he is directed directly. And he was supervised.

He never, remember, never commanded troops anywhere (in the GV - a member of the Military Council), he did NOT have any military or ordinary education.

Quote: mat-vey

.You are flexible as always.

Not a nut, like some, yeah ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

Once again: the strike is planned, prepared BEFORE HIM, it is not sideways to it

At the same time, from the reserve of the Northern Front, the 237th rifle division was sent to the Luga line from the Petrozavodsk direction, and the 70th rifle division from the Karelian Isthmus. From here, the control of the 10th Mechanized Corps was transferred from the 21st and 24th Panzer Divisions. However, all these forces could fully concentrate on the Luga line only by mid-July. In addition, Voroshilov, having assumed the post of commander-in-chief of the direction, immediately decided to transfer these forces from the Northern Front to the 11th Army of the North-Western Front. According to the then chief of the engineering service of the Northern Front, BV Bychevsky, “when Major General DN Nikigiev [chief of staff of the front] found out about it, he almost got a blow. For the Luga line of defense again there were no necessary forces, and at the same time we weakened ourselves in the north. " [58]

You can understand the offense of the front command, from which with one stroke of the pen they took the troops torn out of Karelia with blood - but in fairness it should be said that it was thanks to this decision of Voroshilov that a shock fist was created, which was later used in the counterstrike near Soltsy. It can be assumed with a high degree of probability that otherwise these forces would have been used without much effect in the defense of Luga and the Leningradskoye Highway, while there would have been no obstacles for Manstein's breakthrough to Novgorod.
I didn’t prepare at all - I only distributed my forces .. Oh yes, this is "And he directed the direction directly"
You're right - it's not called "flexibility".

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

At the same time, from the reserve of the Northern Front, the 237th rifle division was sent to the Luga line from the Petrozavodsk direction, and the 70th rifle division from the Karelian Isthmus. From here, the control of the 10th mechanized corps was transferred from the 21st and 24th tank divisions.

Don't talk nonsense: the forces transferred BET:

July 9 - fascist troops occupied Pskov and began to spread freely north and east of this city. A real threat arose that they would enter the operational space on the near approaches to Leningrad. Taking this into account, the Headquarters of the Main Committee on the same day at 16 o'clock transferred to the command of the commander of the North-Western Front (Major General P.P. Sobennikov) the 21st tank division (etc.), the 70th and 177th infantry division (s.d.). 21st etc. immediately set out from Luga to Porkhov.

RATE DIRECTIVE N00260 July 9, 1941

And it didn't smell like "Voroshilov".
The order to strike was given to KCommander of the North-Western Front, Major General P.P. Sobennikov -to the troops of the 11th army of Lieutenant General V.I. Morozov, reinforced by the formations of the Northern Front (21st tank, 70th and 237th rifle divisions), to carry out a counterattack and restore the situation in the Soltsy area.
Vroshilov had just arrived, did not understand anything and did not understand - he was NOBODY in military terms. He NEVER commanded ANYTHING and did NOT have any education AT ALL.

And this is what Stalin told him already in August: L

Stalin: We know the existence of a fortified strip near Leningrad. Not from you, of course, but from other sources. ... But this fortified zone, it seems, has already been broken through by the Germans in the Krasnogvardeysk area, which is why the Headquarters is so acutely raising the question of the defense of Leningrad ...

As for the setx me questions, then you did not answer any of them really ... We have no guarantee that you will not think of something again that does not fit into the framework ... We never knew about your plans and undertakings, we always accidentally find out that something was outlined, something was planned, and then there was a gap... We cannot put up with this either. You are not children and you know well that you do not need forgiveness ... You are disorganized people and do not feel responsible for your actions, which is why you act as if you were on an isolated island, without reckoning with anyone ...

And threw this two-year inept in the rear, it's a pity, as with Pavlov, did not pat ...

[mat-vey]

"On the other hand, the command of the 11th Army arrived at its new troops only on July 12. Before that, for several years, the forces of the 41st and 22nd Rifle Corps were formally controlled by the front command, but in fact remained without control, which also played a negative role. in the original development of events. "
"At the same time, from the reserve of the Northern Front, the 237th Infantry Division was sent to the Luga Line from the Petrozavodsk direction, and the 70th Infantry Division from the Karelian Isthmus. However, all these forces could be fully concentrated on the Luga line only by mid-July. In addition, Voroshilov, taking the post of commander-in-chief of the direction, immediately decided to transfer these forces from the Northern Front of the 10th Army of the North-Western Front. "

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

In addition, Voroshilov,

He none militarily-ZERO: no education and experience.

His "command" is the catastrophe of the blockade of Leningrad, read STALIN.

9 grams is a worthy reward for him. yes, incl. for his 15-year-old "People's Commissariat" - read the ACT of May 8, 1940 transmission of the NCO.
You can't read it without mat

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

You can't read it without mat

Your myths, beaten by time, cannot be read without yawning.

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

Your myths, beaten by time, cannot be read without yawning.

You "Act of May 8, 1940" for a start - read.

And then, if you have a conscience, tell me if this is a myth, yes ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

And then, if you have a conscience, tell me if this is a myth, yes ...

If you are really so impartial and fair, then you can actually find some kind of act "dated 1934" so that you can compare what is actually collapsed and destroyed. And then you can speculate about "conscience" ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

If you are really so impartial and fair, then you can actually find some kind of act "dated 1934" so that you can compare what is actually collapsed and destroyed. And then you can speculate about "conscience" ...

I did not understand: Voroshilov - from November 6, 1925 to June 20, 1934 - People's Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs and Chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR; in 1934-1940 the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR. Total BIroshilov spent 15 years at the head of the military department, longer than anyone else during the Soviet period.

What does it have to do with ... 34 years old?

The 1940 Act was read (list of crimes), no?

What else to discuss?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

The 1940 Act was read (list of crimes), no?

And you can discuss something with you, your dogmatism is stronger than granite. [Media = https: //www.youtube.com/? Gl = RU & hl = ru]

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

And you can discuss something with you, your dogmatism is stronger than granite. [Media = https: //www.youtube.com/? Gl = RU & hl = ru]

Read the ACT, no?

And what to talk to you about?

Quote: mat-vey

Has the structure changed?

People's Commissar THE SAME. Did you host an NGO yourself?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

Read the ACT, no?

And the question arose - who "acted" ... When did you manage to analyze everything so thoroughly?
And yes Tymoshenko seems to be the same from the "cavalry". And Voroshilov himself was punished with a promotion - although these are commies, what can you take from them ..

Quote: Olgovich

People's Commissar THE SAME. Did you host an NGO yourself?

But the People's Commissariat has changed and the country has changed, and the tasks and methods of construction have changed ..
Turning stage ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

And the question arose - who "acted" ... When did you manage to analyze everything so thoroughly?
And yes Tymoshenko seems to be the same from the "cavalry".

The question is not on the merits: the Act was and it is, in fact, an indictment.

Quote: mat-vey

... And Voroshilov himself was punished with a promotion - although these are commies, what can you take from them ..

Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye.

So we got the worst military disaster in the history of the world.

And yes, the chairman is not a promotion.

Quote: mat-vey

And the People's Commissariat has changed and the country has changed, and the tasks and methods of construction have changed..
Turning stage ..

See Act -ab .... "changes"

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

The question is not on the merits: the Act was and it is, in fact, an indictment.

This is exactly the essence - the person himself wrote what else needs to be done and where to go, so that the receiver does not waste time on. But you never understand this - you have maniacs, sadists and mediocrity all around you. myself ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

This is exactly the essence - the person himself wrote what else needs to be done and where to go, so that the receiver does not waste time on. But you never understand this - you have maniacs, sadists and mediocrity all around you. yourself.

ignorant PUSHED his nose into the created about and did the right thing, otherwise Tymoshenko would have hung on someone else's.

Didn't get it, didn't it? Of course not.

And you will NEVER understand this (together, yes), you have successful leaders all around and are truthful, only it is not clear where from then .... SUCH losses and SUCH catastrophes then!

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

ignorant PUSHED his nose into the created about and did the right thing, otherwise Tymoshenko would have hung on someone else's.

Are you judging by yourself again?

Quote: Olgovich

only it is not clear where from then .... SUCH losses and SUCH disasters then!

You won’t understand how long you don’t explain it to you ... you see maniacs everywhere again ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

Are you judging by yourself again?

Until now you have not reached .... the topic of the article (about whom) is it?

Quote: mat-vey

You won’t understand how long you don’t explain it to you ... you see maniacs everywhere again ..

So I just understand the reason: the leaders were not successful specialists, but illiterate ignoramuses and mediocre ignoramuses.

You have problems.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

So I just understand the reason: the leaders were not successful specialists, but illiterate ignoramuses and mediocre ignoramuses.

Well, what was required ... But to cook armor, to extract tungsten, railway tanks did not do it because of the leaders, and so in a couple of years it was possible, especially the engineers and technologists with locksmiths-turners simply had nothing to do in view of the practical absence of them. And where did it all come from later ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

... But to cook armor, to extract tungsten, railway tanks did not do it because of the leaders, and so in a couple of years it was possible, especially the engineers and technologists with locksmiths-turners, there was simply nothing to occupy due to the practical absence of these. ...

What is this murky, incoherent stream of unconsciousness?
You either write in Russian or save people from it.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

What is this murky, incoherent stream of unconsciousness?
You either write in Russian or save people from it.

Well, well, immediately flow ...
Is your consciousness able to understand that to create an army you need first of all political will and industry (for the creation of which you also need political will), and not wishes for universal happiness and universal love? And that no matter how much you dream of a bright future in order for it to come you need to show will and stupidly build factories, train specialists, simultaneously fighting off any Bukharins, Trotsky and Tukhachevsky?

Quote: Olgovich

So I just understand the reason: the leaders were not successful specialists, but illiterate ignoramuses and mediocre ignoramuses.

This means that the ignorant did to the country what she could withstand in such a war ... Although ..

Quote: mat-vey

only it is not clear where from then .... SUCH losses and SUCH disasters then!

Maybe because people like you had to prove the obvious, and not prepare the country for war? That time was spent on all sorts of "showdowns" and "vacillations".

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

And no matter how much you dream of a bright future, in order for it to come, you need to show will and stupidly build factories, train specialists,?

NOBODY allowed those ignorant and non-smart people to "build ANYTHING, and even by SUCH" methods "- did not allow.

This is clear?

Quote: mat-vey

This means that the ignorant did to the country what she could withstand in such a war ... Although ..

PRICE-remember? Not?

And there was a country and BEFORE them and - for a thousand years I did without them, yes

Quote: mat-vey

Maybe because people like you had to prove the obvious, and not prepare the country for war? That time was spent on all sorts of "showdowns" and "vacillations".

If you can't, DO NOT torture: OTHER, smarter people will do, build and develop (as it was done all over the world-WITHOUT them),

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

If you can't, DO NOT torture: OTHER, smarter people will do, build and develop (as it was done all over the world-WITHOUT them),

Yes, yes ... on the rubble someone would have built something ...

Quote: Olgovich

PRICE-remember? Not?

Much less than the complete disappearance of the country.

Quote: Olgovich

NOBODY allowed those ignorant and non-smart people to "build ANYTHING, and even by SUCH" methods "- did not allow.

What kind of ... A-A-A .. executions and flogging of workers and peasants by punishers is another?

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

Yes, yes ... on the rubble someone would have built something

Your GW unleashers and broke.

Quote: mat-vey

Much less than the complete disappearance of the country.

For a THOUSAND years she did not disappear - and she coped WITHOUT your ineptitude.

And with your "achievements" "reached the borders of the 17th century and extinction.
It is a fact

Quote: mat-vey

What kind of ... A-A-A .. executions and flogging of workers and peasants by punishers is another?

You returned serfdom with corvee and quitrent, you imposed Tribute on 90% of the population of your defeated country (Stalin himself said), crushed and shot the workers with dozens

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

Your GW unleashers and broke.

Eck you belochekhov and belyakov then ..

Quote: Olgovich

And with your "achievements" "reached the borders of the 17th century and extinction.

How interesting .. what does "herself, herself" have in arithmetic?

Quote: Olgovich

You have returned serfdom with corvee and rent

Have you looked out the window for a long time?

[Olgovich]

Quote: mat-vey

Eck you belochekhov and belyakov then ..

This is me krasnyukov: there were no thieves before.

it is a fact.

Quote: mat-vey

How interesting .. what does "herself, herself" have in arithmetic?

I do not know what you have in your certificate

Quote: mat-vey

Have you looked out the window for a long time?

Yes, it was partially liquidated in 1974

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

This is me krasnyukov: there were no thieves before.

Well, the punishers just ran around the country ...

Quote: Olgovich

I do not know what you have in your certificate

Take a look at yours - it allows you to compare numbers for more or less ..

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

What does it have to do with ... 34 years old?

Has the structure changed?

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

With TWO education classes a lot can be created, yes.

Lack of education does not play a special role, that is, self-education, all the more so K.E. Voroshilov had other universities, the same underground party work, prison exile - this is a practice of learning, will learn to work with different. people, which then helps a lot in organizational work. And in general the revolutionaries of that time, with rare exceptions, did not have a brilliant education. IN AND. Lenin, too, preferred to pass exams as an external student, and not sit for years at the university. In general, the 20th century gave, leaders who had higher education in our understanding did not bother themselves. Churchill also studied mediocrely, and did not complex from this. Well, Gorbachev has two higher educations and ruined the country, and our current leaders, all have a higher education, some two, doctoral degrees, and the country is in the deepest ...

Quote: Olgovich

Only Voroshilov has nothing to do with him: everything was conceived, planned and assembled for the offensive BEFORE him.

He is an extra who was present at the impact

Yes, they developed and planned the headquarters, but Voroshilov made a decision and took responsibility upon himself, both in cases of success, as in the failure of a counterattack, for this one must have the will and determination, he had it.

Quote: Olgovich

He NEVER commanded anything, and when he started, he led to a quick and catastrophic blockade of Leningrad

Military science is simple and quite accessible to the common mind of man. But it is difficult to fight as Clausewitz used to say, Klement Yefimych has nothing to do with the blockade of Leningrad, then such a situation developed at the front. And in general, it is necessary to learn a simple truth, in 1941 the Wehrmacht was the most powerful army in the world, and it was not necessary to invent all sorts of versions this way, or maybe this way. When Prussia in 1870-71 quickly rolled France, all of Europe understood one thing, now Germany is different. That in WWI, that in WWII, there was no one to compete with the German Reich, from the word at all. All European countries began to conclude alliances, specifically against Germany. And even the Anglo-French alliance could not stand the power of the Wehrmacht. Only the USSR had to confront the power of the German Reich alone for three long years. To think that the General Staff and the generals of the Red Army could, in 41, outplay the German General Staff and the generals, where they are strong, fly in the clouds. 41 years will pass after him 42 years, and the time will come when we will beat the Germans. There will be other generals, other names for K.E. Voroshilov will find other things to do. But it is impossible to forget who in difficult times held back the Germans.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

Lack of special education does not matter, that is, self-education, the more K.E. Voroshilov were other universities, same underground party work, prison link

Indeed, why do military schools and the Academy of the General Staff?

"Turaki" everything, so much money and money spent on them

Quote: Unknown

Yes, they developed and planned the headquarters, but Voroshilov made a decision and took responsibility

He did not take or accept anything.

Quote: Unknown

Military it's simple и quite accessible to a sane mind person.

Well, what are you ....

[mat-vey]

Quote: Olgovich

Indeed, why do military schools and the Academy of the General Staff?

Also under Voroshilov, the reorganization of the training of military personnel was completed. During the reform, military education was divided into two main types: secondary (after graduation from a normal military school) and higher (after graduation from the academy). - this was again prepared by others, but he only commanded the direction ..

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

Indeed, why do military schools and the Academy of the General Staff?

"Turaki" everything, so much money and money spent on them

So Zhukov did not graduate from academies, but Marshal Kulik studied at the Frunze Academy, and somehow he did not shine. The generals of the Wehrmacht did not graduate from any academies at all, the same Keitel, Model, Schörner and others, which did not prevent them from commanding the armies. The topic of the academies of the branch of the military, a separate one, for which they were created and whether they are needed at the present time, there will probably be an article on V.O.

Quote: Olgovich

He did not take or accept anything.

The commander was responsible for the decision made by this rule. You do not know, do not argue.

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Unknown
Military science is simple and quite accessible to the common mind of man.

Well, what are you ...

It's not me, it's Clausewitz.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

So Zhukov did not finish academies

Zhukov went through the war and the army from the RANOVOI and LEARNED all the time, don't lie, incl. and at the courses of the HIGHER command personnel.

Voroshilov stayed with TWO classes of the village school for the rest of his life.

Quote: Unknown

The generals of the Wehrmacht did not finish any academies at all

it's funny.

Quote: Unknown

The commander was responsible for the decision made by this rule. You do not know, do not argue.

Alas, he did not bear it: he deserved a bullet for the defeat and blockade of Leningrad.

You don't know, but you argue.

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

Zhukov went through the war and the army from the RANOVOI and LEARNED all the time, don't lie, incl. and at the courses of the HIGHER command personnel.

Be careful with the words about lies. The courses of command personnel of 1921-24 were initially focused on retraining the command personnel of the civil war, leveling the general level of his knowledge, to give him theoretical training. So, the Higher Cavalry School in Leningrad (by the way, gave the Red Army such commanders as G.K. Zhukov (1923), A.I. Eremenko (1923), K.K. Rokossovsky, I.Kh. Baghramyan (1923-25) , D.G. Pavlov (1922), Ya.T. Cherevichenko (1924)) was reorganized into the Cavalry advanced training courses for command personnel (KKUKS), and the training time was reduced from two years to a year. This is what courses are. Voroshilov at that time was at the party work enough to do.

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Unknown
The generals of the Wehrmacht did not finish any academies at all

it's funny.

Yes, at your leisure, take an interest in the biography of the generals of the Wehrmacht, their passage through the service, in order to be in the subject.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

Be careful with the words about lies. The 1921-24 courses of command personnel were initially focused on retraining the command personnel of the civil war, leveling the general level of his knowledge, and giving him theoretical training. So, the Higher Cavalry School in Leningrad (by the way, gave the Red Army such commanders as G.K. Zhukov (1923), A.I. Eremenko (1923), K.K. Rokossovsky, I.Kh. Baghramyan (1923-25) , D.G. Pavlov (1922), Ya.T. Cherevichenko (1924)) was reorganized into the Cavalry advanced training courses for command personnel (KKUKS), and the training time was reduced from two years to a year. This is what courses are.

Zhukov studied all the time, unlike Voroshilov and in opposition to your lies.

Quote: Unknown

Yes, at your leisure, take an interest in the biography of the generals of the Wehrmacht, their passage through the service, in order to be in the subject.

Read this: http://militera.lib.ru/research/corum_js/04.html.

Maybe then you will understand at least something.

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

Zhukov - studied all the time, unlike Voroshilov and in opposition to your lies

Watch the words, I warned you, you are not selling seeds at the market in Chisinau, accusing me of lying. Voroshilov, in addition to purely military affairs, had to deal with party affairs, the time was not easy and he also studied self-education, communicated with different people at work, such as B.M. Shaposhnikov, with a number of designers of new weapons. Communication with these people meant understanding the very essence of the matter, but how can you get into the problem if you don't understand it? I had to learn everything on the go. There was no time for study at the courses at all. It is necessary to understand the rhythm of that time.

Quote: Olgovich

Read this: http://militera.lib.ru/research/corum_js/04.html.

Maybe then you will understand at least something

There is no need for references, without them it was previously known about the training of officers of the Wehrmacht, during the Soviet era. Edition: B. Vinser. Soldier of three armies. - M .: Progress, 1971.
Original: Winzer Bruno. Soldat In Drei Armeen. - Berlin, Verlag Der Nation, 1969. It was about the famous generals of the Wehrmacht and their biographies.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

Watch the words, I warned you, you are not selling seeds at the market in Chisinau, accusing me of lying. Voroshilov, in addition to purely military affairs, had to deal with party affairs, the time was not easy and he also studied self-education, communicated with different people at work, such as B.M. Shaposhnikov, with a number of designers of new weapons. Communication with these people meant understanding the very essence of the matter, but how can you get into the problem if you don't understand it? I had to learn everything on the go. There was no time for study at the courses at all. Understand the rhythm that time is necessary.

1. Leave your unnecessary warnings.

2. Yeah, and Napoleon's horse developed from many hours of presence at his brilliant instructions.

To help you "ACT of NCO acceptance from Voroshilov Timoshenko dated May 8, 1940".

There the level of "knowledge" and "rhythms" is well shown.

Quote: Unknown

No references are needed, without them it was previously known about the training of Wehrmacht officers, during the Soviet era

There, read about the German General Staff

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

1. Leave your unnecessary warnings.

2. Yeah, and Napoleon's horse developed from many hours of presence at his brilliant instructions.

To help you "ACT of NCO acceptance from Voroshilov Timoshenko dated May 8, 1940".

There the level of "knowledge" and "rhythms" is well shown.

No need to cross the border, there will be no warnings. As a representative of the nationalities, whose relatives were pressed by the Soviet power, you make exaggerated demands on that power. During the period that Voroshilov was in the post of People's Commissar, a lot has been done, but you can't change everything, you can't jump above the bar. And the mess in the army was always difficult to correct, whoever served he knows. It is not necessary to refer to the act of acceptance, Tymoshenko did not fall from the moon, he knew perfectly well about the shortcomings of the Red Army, since he was in command positions. It is always easier to talk about shortcomings, and when he himself became People's Commissar, I realized that things were not going well. The main thing is that at that time more than one army in the world could not reach the level of the Wehrmacht, and the Red Army is no exception. To press charges against the officer corps of the Red Army that they are not like the Germans is natural stupidity. There were those who were, and so they met the war.

Quote: Olgovich

There, read about the German General Staff

The German General Staff was rightfully the best in the interwar period. Naturally, the training of General Staff officers was at a high level. Besides, traditions, caste rules of the Prussian General Staff officer corps since 1816. Not one country in Europe did not have this. Why should the USSR be an exception?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

No need to cross the border, there will be no warnings.

You didn't get it: you are nobody to do them.

It is now clear?

Quote: Unknown

Как representative of nationalities,

This sho for such a beast?

Quote: Unknown

relatives whom the Soviet government pressed , make excessive demands on that power

What nonsense is this?
And who is there to demand from a second grader? ...

Quote: Unknown

Z, you can't jump above the bar.

Yes, ignoramuses do not jump (do not know how)

Quote: Unknown

. It is not necessary to refer to the act of acceptance

We must, we must poke him in the face of the justifiers: it lists the reasons for the military catastrophe of 1941, unprecedented in the history of the world.

Quote: Unknown

The main thing is that up to the level Wehrmacht at that time, more than one army in the world could not reach, and the Red Army is no exception.

this Wehrmacht is 5 (FIVE!) years old, and in the country, imposed and bled with sanctions.

We don’t see the difference?

Quote: Unknown

To press charges against the officer corps of the Red Army that they are not like the Germans is natural stupidity. There were those who were, and so they met the war.

It's foolish to talk about ... "officer "corps of the Red Army and cook commanders The Red Army the way they were trained before the Second World War: see in the aforementioned work about how officers were trained in humiliated, robbed and limited Germany

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

This sho for such a beast?

Don't pretend

Quote: Olgovich

What nonsense is this?
And who is there to demand from a second grader

Your compatriot, S.K. Tymoshenko, too, did not graduate from secular higher educational institutions. He managed to attend a parish school.

Quote: Olgovich

We must, we must poke him in the face of the justifiers: it lists the reasons for the military catastrophe of 1941, unprecedented in the history of the world.

The reasons are always the same. DE Gaulle also did not listen, which led France, the winner in WWI, to the unprecedented catastrophe of 1940. Well, something like this ... In this regard, it must be emphasized that all this took place not because they were afraid of discussing or reorganizing the army to reveal to the whole world the weakness of France, but only as a result of the confidence of the General Staff in the combat capability of the French army. Despite the large number of shortcomings revealed during the mobilization of 1938, no measures were taken in France to eliminate them. A few critics in parliament were assured that things are the best in this world. On the eve of the war, the army command issued another optimistic bulletin.

Quote: Olgovich

It is stupidity to talk about ... the "officer" corps of the Red Army and train the commanders of the Red Army as they were trained before the Second World War: see in the above-mentioned work about HOW they trained officers in humiliated, robbed and limited Germany

It has already been said about how the Wehrmacht officers were trained, there is no need to compare Germany with the USSR, we were in other starting positions. I had to be both students and teachers in one person.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Unknown

Don't pretend

Are you a representative of the National Bolsheviks? So do not pretend, but explain

Quote: Unknown

Your compatriot, S.K. Tymoshenko, too, did not graduate from secular higher educational institutions. He managed to attend a parish school.

But the Act of May 8, 1949 wrote, yes.

Quote: Unknown

The reasons are always the same. DE Gaulle also did not listen, which led France, the winner in WWI, to an unprecedented disaster 1940. Well, something like that.

France was captured in a month.

In a month from June 22, the Germans captured two France, and the dead cannot be compared.

And the reasons are indicated in the Act of May 8, in the Act on complete mess, incompetence, stupidity, laziness and slovenliness in the construction of the army and defense.

The wrong ones were shot in 37-38, yes ...

Quote: Unknown

It has already been said about how the Wehrmacht officers were trained, there is no need to compare Germany with the USSR, we were in other starting positions. I had to be both students and teachers in one person.

Of course, in different ones: Germany - WITHOUT an army, without equipment, in conditions of wild sanctions and restrictions of the country, in the USSR this did not happen, but there was a destroyed officer corps and the complete incompetence of the Voroshilovs.

[Unknown]

Quote: Olgovich

Are you a representative of the National Bolsheviks? So do not pretend, but explain

As I said, it is difficult to explain what they do not want to understand due to their mentality.

Quote: Olgovich

France was captured in a month.

In a month from June 22, the Germans captured two France, and the dead cannot be compared.

And the reasons are indicated in the Act of May 8, in the Act on complete mess, incompetence, stupidity, laziness and slovenliness in the construction of the army and defense.

The French were rolled out together with the British, who quickly hit the road behind the canal, and began to wait for better times. Well, the rest of them will not run anywhere, if only in the colony. Our losses would have been much less, if the peasants of the annexed western regions, Ukraine, Bessarabia, the Baltic states, did not run home and shoot in the back, but fought together with everyone.

Quote: Olgovich

Of course, in different ones: Germany - WITHOUT an army, without equipment, in conditions of wild sanctions and restrictions of the country, in the USSR this did not happen, but there was a destroyed officer corps and the complete incompetence of the Voroshilovs.

The tsarist officer corps could not fight in the Russo-Japanese, then in the WWI and finally baked into the Civil, without leaving a noticeable trace in military affairs, like the German one. There was no one to learn from.

[aglet]

"He did not take or accept anything."
were you present? Or did you take and accept everything?

[aglet]

"With TWO classes of education, a lot can be created, yes."
How many classes did Zhukov have? furrier apprentice, something like this

[Olgovich]

Quote: aglet

"With TWO classes of education, a lot can be created, yes."
How many classes did Zhukov have? furrier apprentice, something like this

Zhukov served in the army, starting with a soldier , passed all stages of military service, fought and studied.

Voroshilov did not serve in the army at all, did not study anywhere, but became ... a marshal.

The result of his "work: the failed Finnish, the failure of the army shooting (Act of transfer of the NKO of 1940), the failure of the defense of Leningrad (see Resolution PB).

[aglet]

"Zhukov served in the army, starting with a soldier, passed all stages of military service, fought and studied."
is it enough to become a marshal? that is, by length of service? and about Zhukov's studies, in more detail, please

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Unknown

By the way, at the meeting on the results of the Soviet-Finnish war, J.V. STALIN did not personally reproach the former People's Commissar.

Personal - no.
But on the commanders of the Civil War, who had not learned anything and were fighting as if they were still in that war, Stalin walked very sharply.

[Timofey Charuta]

The dirty liberals are right there ...

He was told - "in the family of a poor worker. Clement in childhood knew hunger and begged for alms with his younger sister. From a young age he worked as a shepherd and a miner ..." .. ". and so on throughout the text. They judge by themselves ...

The only thing I agree with the liberals is the participation of Kliment Efremovich in the repressions. Blot in the biography, there is nothing to cover ...

IN SHORT, A TYPICAL HERO OF ITS TIME!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Timofey Charuta

The only thing I agree with the liberals is the participation of Kliment Efremovich in the repressions. Blot in the biography, there is nothing to cover ...

What does "participation" mean? What does it mean? Did he shoot himself? Or passed sentences bypassing the court?

[evgen1221]

Under Stalin, the best 40g tank in the world would never have been named after the (stupid cavalier) KV! This alone shatters the Perestroika myth about Voroshilov. Such articles would be broadcast in schools and on TV, it would be enough to drive young people about the backward union. The USSR is something that today's Russia never dreamed of.

[kalibr]

J. Ya. Kotin named the tank KV because he was married to Voroshilov's adopted daughter. Well, how can such a father-in-law not do a good thing. And the memory of the dead Kirov had to be immortalized - hence the QMS.

[kalibr]

Quote: evgen1221

Enough to drive young people about a backward union.

And if he were ahead of the whole planet, we would still live there today!

[evgen1221]

But now it's not life but a fairy tale!)))

[mat-vey]

Quote: evgen1221

But now it's not life but a fairy tale!)))

And ahead of the rest of the world ... they have made significant progress ..

[kalibr]

Quote: evgen1221

But now it's not life but a fairy tale!

Not a fairy tale, but now it's fair: you are the boss, I ... And then there was a communist director Ivanov and a communist loader Sidorov, members of the same party organization and ... at party meetings they were equal! In words!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

and and ... at party meetings they were equal! In words!

Why "in words"? In working out the decision (resolution) of the meeting (conference, etc.), they were really equal. As are equal in the implementation of the decision (resolution) of the meeting (conference, etc.).
Whoever wants to see will see. Whoever wants to shit shit.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

meetings (conferences, etc.) they really were equal.

And then the director showed his I and showed the loader his place. There is no need to tell me tales about the bright past. I was there, I saw how it was all with my own eyes.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

And then the director showed his I and showed the loader his place.

The loader knew his place even without the direction of the director from the moment he got a job at the enterprise as a loader. How does this fact speak about the depravity of the Soviet system? What's in your head? I hate it because I hate it?

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

The loader knew his place even without the instructions of the director from the moment he got a job at the enterprise as a loader. How does this fact speak about the depravity of the Soviet system? What's in your head?

Yes, I was wrong! Everything was right and good ... Senile marasmus. Excuse me...

[MrFox]

Don't tell stories. Decisions always came from the top and were always voted for unanimously

[evgen1221]

Then the communist Sidorov could complain about the tyrant director of the communist Ivanov and his voice was heard, now, like in a fairy tale, where you don't go, the result is zero, well, if you don't have more money than the boss, of course.

[Doliva63]

Quote: evgen1221

Then the communist Sidorov could complain about the tyrant director of the communist Ivanov and his voice was heard, now, like in a fairy tale, where you don't go, the result is zero, well, if you don't have more money than the boss, of course.

That was a long time ago One of our elders in the year of "replacement" in another district of the NSh slapped 6 "stricters" - well, this is nonsense in itself, but what position will he be "replaced" with with such a personal matter? Party comrades decided to help. A party meeting was held, where, in addition to the NSh, they invited comrades from the higher party organization. Debriefing: This officer is characterized by colleagues and commanders as a principled communist and highly professional specialist. The whole problem is that NS has a personal dislike for him. It was decided: to ask the higher party organs to check the professional activities of the NSh, who dishonor the party with his behavior. Well, something like this. As a result, the reprimands were removed, the starley left for a major position, and the NSh got a "strogach", was replaced by an equivalent one. The party was useful, it was!

[kalibr]

Quote: Doliva63

The party was useful, it was!

And no one argues with that. While people adhere to certain principles and rules. But for some reason, almost the entire party in 91 put these rules and principles on ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

But for some reason, almost the entire party in 91 put these rules and principles on ...

Just don’t shift your betrayal to all party members. It was you who were "above", and you betrayed. How does the ship's crew know where the ship is going? If there is a captain, navigator and one who is at the helm, whom the team trusts. And when understanding came, there was no longer either the captain or the navigator, and the one at the helm was given the wrong course. And you, among them, changed your shoes and set the wrong course. And now you smear the whole lot with mud. Shame!

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

It was you who were "above", and you betrayed. How does the ship's crew know where the ship is going? If there is a captain, navigator and one who is at the helm, whom the team trusts.

And I didn't know that I was Gorbachev's referent, and not an ordinary teacher of the history of the CPSU. Does this mean "top" in your opinion? Well, that's cool! What about your head?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

And I didn't know that I was Gorbachev's referent, and not an ordinary teacher of the history of the CPSU. Does this mean "top" in your opinion?

Well, since you were a teacher of the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, it means that you read Marx and Lenin's works by heart and could not help but notice the change in course of the hunchbacked. Unlike me, a techie who is doing a plan. And having noticed that you did not start ringing all the bells? And now you make me guilty. Everyone must do their job. You monitor the implementation of the Party program, and I follow the implementation of the national economic plans. I have not missed my business, unlike you. So, my head is all right. And you have not only problems with your head, but also with your conscience.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

and I am for the fulfillment of national economic plans.

And they were carried out, right? Basis - Basis - Economics. And she was rotten in the first place. We even read lectures on the advantages of socialism in the summer of 1991! "The party began with itself," a lesson in truth "..." socialism with a human face. "And at this time," thugs "were dragging ..." You are the owner, not a guest, take away at least a nail! "And losses in rubles from -for booze ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

and I am for the fulfillment of national economic plans.
And they were carried out, right?

Absolutely. In the worst case, due to disruptions in the supply of materials and components, in the first days of the next month.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

I have not missed my business, unlike you.

Oh?

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And you, among them, changed your shoes and set the wrong course.

If the course was wrong, then I asked it according to the instructions from above. What kind of overshoes are we talking about? On the 91st we were still shod in worn-out Lenin's shoes. But you are partly right. We all brought this day closer as we could! And the paradox is that the more the teachers of Marxism-Leninism "drowned" for it, the closer was its collapse. But such a dichotomy, it is understood, is simply inaccessible to your intellect.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

We all brought this day closer as we could!

No, sorry, not all. I am not involved in this, like millions of people like me. No need to blame a sore head on a healthy one.
We fed, clothed and shod you "intelligentsia", but what were you doing? We started creating an emergency, fulfilling the slogan - get rich? Instead of leading us illiterates in the struggle to preserve the Sov. authorities. Be silent too. Do not be ashamed.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

to lead us illiterate

We have been doing this for so many years that we just got bored. But they fed ... the wrong approach. And you were treated and educated, so they were hegemonized and that's enough - at last it became as it should be: Caesar's Caesar's, and locksmith's - locksmith's!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

And you were treated and educated,

What kind of education did you give if the result is negative? Did you yourself believe what you taught? A fitter?

Quote: kalibr

finally it became as it should be: Caesar's Caesar's, and locksmith's - locksmith's!

So it was under Soviet rule. Only Caesar was a real one - he took care of the locksmith, so that he received an education, and so that he did not get sick, and so that he received housing, etc., etc., etc.
And now the fake Caesar cares only about his "Caesarites", but he doesn't care about the locksmith, not a stranger (!).

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What kind of education did you give if the result is negative?

What was ordered - this was given. The textbooks were ONE FOR THE WHOLE USSR, and no one was engaged in gagging. If the result was negative, then the education was poor. The teacher has nothing to do with it. The seeder that was put in it sows! And you cannot hope that if you planted potatoes, then bananas will grow!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

What was ordered - this was given.

But what about creativity? Or is it not about you? We, "locksmiths", were creative in solving the problem, making rationalizations. To implement it, we called the chief designer, nothing could be changed without his visa, showed him our proposal, he carefully studied it, and there was no case that he did not give consent. You, too, could make suggestions for changing the program or textbook. After all, what was the emphasis on in studying the history of the CPSU? On the dates of the congresses, the venue, Lenin's position, etc. But this is not very interesting for the student. It is much more interesting to consider the Congress itself. What issues are on the agenda, who made what proposals, what is their essence, who and why was for or against. Those. live struggle of opinions. This is what might interest the student. And you were forced to stupidly outline the primary sources. This, too, had to be studied, I admit. But it is no less interesting how the deputies of the congresses reacted to this. Yes, in general, what am I talking about and to whom ... You will still find an excuse - something is wrong in my head. For this, let me take my leave.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

You, too, could make suggestions for changing the program or textbook.

What are you laughing at? Senior lecturer at a supernumerary university from Muhos ... ka? When is there an Institute of Marxism-Leninism under the Central Committee of the CPSU? The lieutenant points out to the general? And you will be told: "Please do it!"

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

It is much more interesting to consider the Congress itself. What issues are on the agenda, who made what proposals, what is their essence, who and why was for or against. Those. live struggle of opinions. This is what might interest the student.

And all this was, by the way. The reader was attached to the textbook ... But ... the books by Trotsky, Orwell, Bernays were forbidden to read ... "The Living Conflict of Opinions" as it were! How is the party worth? Like a cliff! And how the delegates reacted ... There were collections of documents of the congresses. Everything is written there, how they approved. And there was no other information. So do not confuse teaching today with teaching in the 70-80s of the last century. That was the problem - INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE. If it were complete, the USSR would have covered itself with a copper basin much earlier!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

What are you laughing at? Senior lecturer at a supernumerary university from Muhos ... ka? When is there an Institute of Marxism-Leninism under the CPSU Central Committee? The lieutenant points out to the general?

I don't even smile. But we did not hesitate, being in the "muhos ... ke" to call from Moscow (!), Right from the design bureau (!) Of the Chief Designer himself. And "the lieutenant did not tell the general," but made a proposal.

Quote: kalibr

And all this was by the way. The reader was attached to the textbook ...

Yeah, it was attached. Have the students read it? Not! They barely had time to outline the primary sources. But it was you, the lecturers, who had to explain to the immature brains of the students the essence of the disagreements at the congress, what could have happened if the congress had accepted another, not Lenin's proposal. And if the students understood what is the essence of the disagreements at the congresses, what is the essence of non-Leninist proposals, then Gorbachevism would not have happened.
If we, locksmiths, treated our work as you do, the USSR would have nothing. If we went to work to serve the serving time, as you did. We lost not economically, not technically, we lost to the "West" ideologically. And who was engaged in ideology in our country? - You! It was you who lost to the "West"

Quote: kalibr

KNOWLEDGE. If it were complete, the USSR would have covered itself with a copper basin much earlier!

You are wrong. If the student understood, thanks to your efforts, what is the essence of the disagreements between Lenin and his opponents, then, I repeat, Gorbachevism would not have happened. This means that the USSR would not be covered with anything.
By the way, the ban on Trotsky's books is easy to explain. The Politburo understood that you, the teachers, are not able to explain to the students what would have happened to the USSR if it had gone along the path suggested by Trotsky.

[kalibr]

With logic, you are just a disaster. If we were not able to explain to the students the essence of Trotsky's books, then what do you demand from us to clarify the differences? So it was necessary to teach us to explain, right? Isn't it stupid to prohibit? After all, they were sent to advanced courses every five years ... That is, judging by your opinion, we had to explain what we ourselves did not know and did not understand? What wildness. So I write - all the troubles come from incomplete knowledge. But for some reason this is not available to you. Your production is probably harmful. Some parts of the brain die off. It is obvious...

[Krasnoyarsk]

[quote = kalibr
With logic, you're just a disaster. If we were not able to explain to students the essence of Trotsky's books, then which ones [/ quote]
No, you can't read that. Not the essence of Trotsky's books, but the essence of the differences between Trotsky and Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.

Quote: kalibr

Are you asking us to clarify the differences? So it was necessary to teach us to explain, right?

And why were you given higher education? Is it not so that you yourself will learn to think and understand what you have read, and not wait for you, an educated person, to chew again and again as a freshman the difference between Trotsky's plan and Stalin's plan for building socialism in the USSR?

Quote: kalibr

After all, they were sent to advanced courses every five years ...

It means not to feed the horse, since you yourself were not able to deal with Trotsky's ideas. It means you went on the wrong path. I had to go to the locksmiths. Maybe at least there would be some benefit from you.

[kalibr]

[quote = Krasnoyarsk] Not the essence of Trotsky's books, but the essence of the disagreements between Trotsky and Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. [/ quote]
There was a textbook where everything was stated. You could not get acquainted with this on your own. Can I explain it easily?
[quote = Krasnoyarsk] [quote = kalibr

No, you can't read that. Not the essence of Trotsky's books, but the essence of the differences between Trotsky and Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.
[quote = kalibr]
So how was I supposed to know them if we hadn't read his books IN THE ORIGINAL?
Why did you get a higher education? Is it not so that you yourself will learn to think and understand what you have read,

Yes, read ... BUT WE DIDN'T READ IT. You can understand READ. And how to understand NOT READ, when Trotsky's books were FORBIDDEN, and Hilferding, and Bernays, and Pareto - the theory of elites, and Orwell - everything was FORBIDDEN. And can a person with incomplete knowledge be considered educated?
After all, every five years they were sent to advanced courses ... [/ quote]
It means not to feed the horse, since you yourself were not able to deal with Trotsky's ideas.
So they figured it out themselves - they opened a textbook, the same from Kaliningrad to Chukotka and read ...
And what am I writing to you? All troubles are from INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

All troubles are from INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE.

A thousand times right.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

A thousand times right.

You see ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

You see ...

What do you see? what

Quote: kalibr

All troubles from INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE

?
Taki - yes. That you didn't want to expand your knowledge, didn't want to engage in self-education in this particular area of ​​knowledge? Taki - yes.
You were carried away by something completely different and put the device on your main activity. For which they received denyuzhku.
That's the whole story.

[kalibr]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Did you yourself believe what you taught?

You are kind of ... on the head. How many times to write, no matter what we believed. It is important what was given and how. That - there was a single textbook, a single program and an army of thousands of assistants, Art. teachers, associate professors and professors who could not step aside from the program. And they paid us not for our faith, but for how and what we gave to the people. And you know, it's nice to hang around and see how nice people are. How did we know it was noodles? So all the claims are against the CPSU Central Committee. We only did what we were told. And they did it well! Those who were bad were quickly kicked out. Why pay mediocrity? And no one saws the branch on which he sits and does not cut the goose that lays the golden eggs. Strain the foam of your brain and see that it is!

[aglet]

"You are kind of ... on the head. How many times to write, no matter what we believed."
absolutely correct, the main thing is how much we were paid for it
"And you know, it's nice to hang on to your ears"
that's it, and I mean too

[aglet]

"But for some reason, almost the entire party in 91 put these rules and principles on."
but because by that time people like you, the children and grandchildren of the party nomenclature had grown up to the leadership

[kalibr]

Quote: aglet

children and grandchildren of the party nomenclature

Well, the son of a teacher of a supernumerary university is far from a nomenclature. Here is an OK KPSS instructor - yes, but I was before him ... oh, how far away. And what do you want to say that all 18 million were children of the party nomenklatura? Okostya!

[aglet]

"And what do you want to say that all 18 million were children of the party nomenklatura? Okstay!"
no, of course, but it was not they who came to power, and not even their children, but the children and grandchildren of the party nomenklatura

[Alexey RA]

Quote: evgen1221

Under Stalin, the best 40g tank in the world would never have been named after the (stupid cavalier) KV!

I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the letter from the military representative of Kalivoda regarding the KV tank. Churchill's statement about the tank of the same name immediately comes to mind.
Moreover, the plant did not take any measures to eliminate the shortcomings of the tank even after the visit of the Mehlis commission. And so he continued to drive into the troops a 47-ton tank with a suspension and transmission designed for 40 tons, with twisting shafts and "balding" gear wheels, with an engine cooling system already boiling at 20 km / h, with an air filter that requires cleaning every hour and a half, with wedge brakes, with a barely rotating turret (the drive to the 7-ton unbalanced KV turret was taken from the 3-ton T-28 turret), etc.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Alexey RA

smile
Moreover, the plant did not take any measures to eliminate the shortcomings of the tank even after the visit of the Mehlis commission. And so it continued to drive the 47-ton

So there were reasons for that. But this is not the main thing for you, the main thing for you is to splash on the fan. By the way, the Germans, with their tiger and panther, also not everything went smoothly. And nothing, they continued to release. And today's Germans do not blame the then for this.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

So there were reasons for that.

There was only one reason - the plant hoped to correct all the shortcomings in the new KV-3 (that way, by 1942, if possible - because in 1941 the tank could not even drive normally). And therefore, he considered the KV tank to be "passable" and temporary, without taking any measures to eliminate the shortcomings that the army men had repeatedly reported.
In short, in 1940 and 1941, LKZ drove marriage, receiving money for it. Moreover, even with the marriage there were problems - to fulfill the plan, the acceptance certificates had to be forged (and even the factory workers failed, forgetting to remake the dates of the forms).

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

By the way, the Germans, with their tiger and panther, were not going smoothly either. And nothing, they continued to release.

If the Germans acted like Salzman, they would have produced the very modification of the Panther that burned on marches on the Kursk Bulge until 1945 - without any changes.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Alexey RA

There was only one reason - the plant hoped to fix all the flaws in the new KV-3.

"The plant was hoping ..." When you read such nonsense, you just take it off ...
With this, please, not to me.
Do you know what a complaint is? Is there a consumer complaint, the commander of a tank regiment (division, corps, etc.) for the products manufactured by the plant? Is there a reaction from the plant director (chief designer)? Are there any approved plans to address design flaws? You have nothing. Naked words.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Is there a consumer complaint, the commander of a tank regiment (division, corps, etc.) for the products manufactured by the plant?

There is even better - a letter from Mehlis to Stalin and Voroshilov on the results of work at the LKZ of the special commission of the People's Commissariat of the State Control:

In connection with a letter sent to me by a military engineer comrade Kalivoda (former military representative of ABTU KA at the Kirov plant) in which he said that the KV tanks had serious design flaws, the People's Commissariat of State Control, in agreement with comrade Voroshilov, checked the production of tanks at the Kirov plant KV.
As a result, the following was established.
The guaranteed mileage established for HF in 2000 km for individual units and assemblies is not maintained, which is confirmed by a number of tests carried out by the plant.
The KV gearbox is not strong enough ... Introduced in August of this year. in the design of the gearbox, the lock that fixes the position of the gears reduces the possibility of emergency breakdowns, however, the strength of the gearbox itself remains unsatisfactory. In October, the plant received a complaint report from the military unit, which indicated that in tank No. 3622 (adopted by the military representative on September 3), the intermediate shaft of the gearbox was twisted and the tapered bearing was destroyed.
The KV cooling system does not ensure normal engine operation due to high temperatures and oil in the radiator. On-board clutches fail due to overheating due to inadequate lubrication of the clutch bearings. The factory-introduced labyrinth seal does not retain lubricant.
In tanks KV No. 3652, 3653, which passed control tests with mileage and were accepted by the military representative in September, when preparing to ship them to the military unit, a leak was detected through the oil seals of final drives.
The engine air filter does not provide normal cleaning of air from dust, as a result of which the engine refuses to work when driving along a dusty dirt road.
Drawings and technical specifications (TU) for the manufacture and acceptance of KV tanks by the factory have not yet been fully developed and the ABTU KA has not been approved. The lack of approved drawings and technical specifications complicates the work of military acceptance and hinders the deployment of mass production.
It is especially necessary to note the presence of the main design flaws of the HF, which must be eliminated as soon as possible
1) insufficient engine runtime without repair (80-100 hours), which reduces the combat readiness of the tank;
2) poor visibility from the tank, inferior to medium German tanks.
3) the difficulty of controlling a tank in battle.

Plant reaction? The same as that of KhPZ regarding the T-34: all the shortcomings will be eliminated in the next model of the tank, revision of the design of serial vehicles will reduce the pace of production and delivery of tanks to the army.
However, the reaction of the plant becomes absolutely clear if you know one small caveat: to eliminate most of the problems of the KV, he needed to completely replace the chassis and suspension. For they were originally calculated by the factory design bureau for a tank weight of 40 tons (which GABTU, by the way, knew about).

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Alexey RA

There is even better - a letter from Mehlis to Stalin and Voroshilov on the results of work at the LKZ of the special commission of the People's Commissariat of the State Control:

In fact, there should have been at least a memo, not a "letter". And as a maximum - the conclusions of the special commission, the final document.
And I would like to receive from you a link to this "letter"

Quote: Alexey RA

Plant reaction? Same as KhPZ about T-34

I don’t understand, but what do you mean by that?
After all, it's not a secret for anyone that the USSR had problems with engines. And for aviation too. So what? Wasn't it necessary to release the KV and T-34 until they finished it properly? Was there a time for that? Would it be easier for you if by the year 41 these tanks were not in the army? To keep them on the test sites?

[BAI]

V. I. Lenin and K. E. Voroshilov among the delegates of the X Congress of the RCP (b) - participants in the liquidation of the counter-revolutionary insurrection in Kronstadt. 1921 g.

And who is next to Lenin with 2 Orders of the Red Banner? In 1921 it is very worthy! There were very few of them.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: BAI

And who is next to Lenin with 2 Orders of the Red Banner?

There is one more question - who is not next to Lenin (left), although he was in the original photo?

[bober1982]

Quote: Alexey RA

There is one more question - who is not next to Lenin (left), although he was in the original photo?

Bronstein is not there, he is not specifically shown in the photo, and in some of the photos there is an empty space instead of him, in the literal sense, it turns out, and at that time there were masters of Photoshop.
By the way, the caption to the photo sounded like this - Lenin and Trotsky at the meeting ..., then they left only - Lenin at the meeting ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: bober1982

Bronstein is not there, he is not specifically shown in the photo, and in some of the photos there is an empty space instead of him, in the literal sense, it turns out, and at that time there were masters of Photoshop.

Yeah, professional retouchers.
Look, for example, the father of nations visits the Volga-Moscow canal (gateway number 3): there was Yezhov - and there is no Yezhov. Only Voroshilov and Molotov remained.

[bubalik]

not next to Lenin (left), although he was in the original photo?

[BAI]

The author does not have many in the photo.

[bubalik]

next to Lenin with 2 Orders of the Red Banner

Lieutenant General "hero" of the civil war, Voroshilov's secretary, Rafail Khmelnitsky (1898 - 1964)

[BAI]

Why such confidence?
Khmelnitsky:

In the Red Army since January 1919. In January 1919, he was appointed secretary of the district military registration and enlistment office in Kremenchug, from April - the head of the mounted and foot units of the Kremenchug militia, then the commandant of the Znamenka station. From June 1919 - the representative of the Cheka for the quartering of the Red Army troops. In December 1919 - January 1920 he was underground, then he was a political worker of the Agitation department of the Kharkov provincial military registration and enlistment office, from May 1920 he was a secretary of a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 1st Cavalry Army. He took part in battles with the Poles, the troops of Generals A.I.Denikin and P.N. Wrangel on the Southwestern and Southern Fronts, as well as against the rebels in the Ukraine. Since June 1921 - the acting adjutant of the commander of the troops of the North Caucasus Military District (the commander of the district was K.E. Voroshilov.

Not a word about participation in the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion. But the person in the photo with 2 orders is wounded, and the wound is fresh. Those. he was directly involved in the battles.

[bubalik]

Take another look at the picture.

Next to Ilyich is a young Red Army soldier in a pointed Budennovsky helmet. On the chest there are two Orders of the Red Banner. The arm is in a sling. The head and neck are bandaged. And the eyes and the whole face of the young man still shine with a smile, proud joy - Ilyich is next to him.

Photo reporter L. Ya. Leonidov later said:

- Six minutes later (after the phone call: “Come to shoot”) I was in the Kremlin, on the stairs of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee building. I see: Vladimir Ilyich is standing among the people in greatcoats and affectionately looking into the face of some young soldier, completely tied up with bandages. First thing I thought: recent wounds. Where is he from?

I personally know well the young hero noticed by Lenin among other participants in the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion. In the picture he is an ordinary volunteer soldier. Three years later we met with him in the same auditorium of the Academy of the General Staff of the Red Army (later - the Academy named after M.V. Frunze).

Rafail Pavlovich Khmelnitsky - and this was him - became, on the recommendation of KE Voroshilov, a student [366] of the Academy a year before my arrival and was already considered an old-timer. He helped me to settle in a new place, to arrange urgent personal affairs.

We met quite often from 1924 to 1927. We also met on party affairs, at the party committee, at meetings and conferences. In my second year of study, I was elected secretary of the united party committee of four academies (the Frunze Academy, Higher Academic Courses, the Plekhanov Economic Academy and the Faculty of Oriental Studies).

Vasilyev Vasily Efimovich

And our spirit is young

Annotation of the publishing house: The author of the book is an old Bolshevik, a member of the CPSU since 1918, a participant in the storming of the Winter Palace, a man who knew V.I.Lenin, talks about his meetings with Ilyich, about those significant

[BAI]

And I think it is
Mikhail Petrovich Garussky (1894-1962) - Major General of the Soviet Army, participant in the Civil War, three times holder of the Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR (1919, 1921, 1922).

Distinguished himself during the repulsion of an attack of an enemy armored train near the village of Borovskaya, Petrograd province [1]. By order of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic No. 288 in 1919, platoon commander Mikhail Garusky was awarded the first Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR [2].

The second time he distinguished himself during a battle near the village of Nesterovichi, during which he was wounded, but continued to fight [1]. By order of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic No. 57 in 1921, battalion commander Mikhail Garusky was again awarded the Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR [2].

For the third time he distinguished himself during the suppression of the Kronstadt uprising[one]. By order of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic No. 1 in 65, the assistant commander of the regiment, Mikhail Garusky, was awarded the third Order of the Red Banner of the RSFSR [1922].

That is, he took part in the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion already being twice a cavalier. And he distinguished himself in battles. And he was wounded. Therefore, he is next to Lenin.
And the photo is similar.

Moreover, he was awarded the second order by order #57 from 17.02.1921 - just in time for the events, he could receive an order and be an elected delegate to the congress.
And in the biography of Khmelnitsky there is no participation in the suppression of the rebellion and twice he became a cavalier at the end of March 1921 - order No. 93 of 23.03.1921/XNUMX/XNUMX. He physically could not receive the order at the time of photographing.
Khmelnitsky:

In December 1919 - January 1920 he was underground, then he was a political worker of the Agitation department of the Kharkov provincial military registration and enlistment office, from May 1920 he was a secretary of a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 1st Cavalry Army. He took part in battles with the Poles, the troops of Generals A.I.Denikin and P.N. Wrangel on the Southwestern and Southern Fronts, as well as against the rebels in the Ukraine. Since June 1921 - the acting adjutant of the commander of the troops of the North Caucasus Military District (the commander of the district was K.E. Voroshilov.

I spent all my time in the South.

[bubalik]

We remembered more than once the ice of Kronstadt, a March day in the Kremlin, photographing.

- I, - said Khmelnitsky, - stood at the edge of the assembled group. I wanted to get closer to Lenin, but can you break through with with a tied hand? Fresh bandages, obviously, caught the eye of Vladimir Ilyich. I asked Kliment Efremovich: "Who is this wounded man?" “My secretary, Khmelnitsky,” Voroshilov replied.

Vladimir Ilyich came up to me. Gently, so as not to disturb my hand, I hugged my right shoulder and asked how old I was when I joined the party where I fought. Where and under what circumstances it was wounded. I asked if it was scary to attack.

- I, - continued Khmelnitsky, - said that really, Vladimir Ilyich, it was scary before starting to move on the ice of the Marquis puddle. Hardly anyone attacked in such conditions, when in front of you is a smooth ice field, where you can neither bury nor lie down. He said that we all understood that there was no turning back. We only thought about winning. Ilyich smiled: "You thought right." Somehow like a home, like a father touched the orders Of the Red Banner. Heading to the previous place, he invited me to stand beside him.

[BAI]

Where is the official confirmation not only of Khmelnitsky's participation in suppressing the rebellion, but at least. that he was leaving the South for Petrograd at this time?

[bubalik]

Where is the official confirmation not only of Khmelnitsky's participation in suppressing the rebellion

Order of the RVSR on awarding the Order of the Red Banner to the commanders and soldiers of the Southern Group who distinguished themselves during the storming of forts and the fortress of Kronstadt. March 23 // RCKHIDNI, f. 17, op. 65, d.557, l. 78 and about; op. 112, d.139, l. 5 and vol. The originals.

[bubalik]

Mikhail Petrovich Garussky

,, does not fit.
During the Civil War, he was twice wounded:
shell-shocked near the village of Nizy, Petrograd province in December 1919
wounded in the village of Nesterovichi in June 1920

[BAI]

Voroshilov's secretary, Rafail Khmelnitsky (1898 - 1964)

Not suitable.
Awarded with the 2nd Order, according to the above order - March 23 1921.
And the photo was taken - 22 March 1921. He did not have a second order at the time of shooting.

On March 22 in Moscow V.I.Lenin received delegates of the X Congresswho returned after the battles of Kronstadt. He told them about the results of the work of the congress, talked with them about the battles with the rebels {637}. At the request of the delegates, Lenin was photographed with them - today this photograph is one of the most famous in Leninians.

http://militera.lib.ru/research/semanov_sn/08.html
However, the third option is possible, since neither Garussky nor Khmelnitsky were delegates to the congress.

[bubalik]

,,, must see.
But the dark horse, in the official biography is not indicated, but in the award for the assault on Kronshatd he is, and it is indicated that this is his second order.

done - March 22, 1921.

,,, I guess after the assault was awarded. The order was officially passed later; there is a difference of one day.

[Alexey RA]

Under the leadership of Kliment Efremovich, a tremendous amount of work was done to reorganize and build the Armed Forces of the USSR. He carried out work on technical re-equipment, development and expansion of the military education system, training and education of troops.

1. By the time of the acceptance and surrender of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, there was no operational plan of war, operational plans, both general and private, were not developed and lacked.
The General Staff has no data on the state of covering the borders. The decisions of the military councils of the districts, armies and the front on this issue are unknown to the General Staff.

1. The People’s Commissariat does not have an accurately established actual strength of the Red Army at the time of admission. Accounting personnel due to the fault of the Main Directorate of the Red Army is in an extremely neglected state.

3. Among the reserves liable for military service are 3 untrained people. The People's Commissariat of Defense has no training plan for them. Among the trained personnel are registered military reserves with insufficient training and in a number of specialties, the mobilization need for specialists is not covered. The People's Commissariat of Defense also does not have a plan to retrain specialists and retrain poorly trained personnel.

The training of command personnel in military schools is unsatisfactory due to the poor quality of programs, disorganization of classes, insufficient workload of study time and especially weak field practical training. Improvement of the commanding staff of the cadre is not properly organized. The disadvantage of training programs for commanders in military educational institutions is: conducting classes mainly in classrooms, the lack of field studies, the saturation of programs with general subjects to the detriment of the military.

1. Infantry:
a) issues of organization, armament and training of infantry are not given due attention;
b) the infantry is trained weaker than all other branches of the army;
c) the accumulation of prepared stock of infantry is not enough;
d) the infantry command staff is poorly prepared and has a large shortage;
e) infantry weapons lag behind modern combat requirements and are not provided with mortars and machine guns.

© Act on the acceptance of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense Timoshenko S.K. from Voroshilov K.E.
Etc.
In general, the results of Voroshilov's leadership of the NPO were best manifested in the Soviet-Finnish war. According to the results victories where unsinkable first red officer fled from his post, signing the devastating NCO Acceptance Act, which looked more like an indictment.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Ha ... well, and an article ... dear commentators, I sketched a plan for you here, and you should add it in your comments ..

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Ha ... well, and an article ... dear commentators, I sketched a plan for you here, and you should add it in your comments ..

Duc, this is a long-standing tradition - the article is written in the comments.

[vladcub]

"Obviously, the difference in social origin affected"
Samsonov, and that's too much. Since when did V. And Lenin become a swaggering gentleman?
For some reason: "social origin" _ did not work in relation to: Kalina and Stalin.
Ah, I forgot: Stalin was the bastard son of the prince, and Kalin in that case was a landowner? I think you need to think before you say this

[yehat2]

1 one could expect support from Voroshilov, for example, good supplies
but such things as the Brusilov breakthrough or preparation for urban battles or new norms for stocks of shells for artillery (which Zhukov knocked out) should not be expected from him.
Voroshilov fired really well, but the commander needs other skills.

[Alexander Greene]

Samsonov did not expose all the myths. Read the book by P. Balaev “Klim Voroshilov. First Marshal of the country of the Soviets "
http://loveread.ec/view_global.php?id=72733

[Eug]

And the troops of the Red Army, under the command of Voroshilov, put Manstein's corps to flight in 1941 near Soltsy ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Eug

And the troops of the Red Army, under the command of Voroshilov, put Manstein's corps to flight in 1941 near Soltsy ...

And for the fact that the German tank division near Soltsy in the first boiler in the Second World War was hit, minuses were imposed ...

[da Vinci]

“I made up for the shortcomings with great dedication, energy, efficiency and hard work.” They say that it is worse than a fool - with initiative.

[ivan2022]

Quote: da Vinci

"They say that a fool is worse - with initiative.

Why don't they "say" who is better? Because for this you need to have convolutions in your own brain. But in our own practice of "recent history" we have something else;
worse than a fool with initiative, only the Banderlog, who in peacetime (!!) profiled their country in 1991 and 1993 instead of putting it in order. Well, then they began to judge, who was "worse than them" during the past wars. To sit and be silent and "sniff in two ...", but no, everything is itching to do it.
There has probably never been such a shame "in a single country" since the creation of the world ...

[ivan2022]

The myth of the stupid cavalryman is based on a more general, grandiose myth that resonates in the souls of the descendants of serfs, who have come to terms with the idea of ​​their own inferiority "according to Goebbels."

They recognize and blindly believe that their country of more than 100 million people was "enslaved by Jewish groups", that there were "millions of people sentenced to the zone, it is not clear why and why", although such a game is impossible in a normal society. They admit that they "overwhelmed the Germans with their corpses", which could never have happened in any war. That one can simultaneously be a complete "idiot - cavalryman" and at the same time defeat a strong enemy.

[Ingvard chijoff]

The horse pulled on itself the entire hardest part of the war, where the technique was useless.

[RUSS]

Quote: Ingvard Chijoff

The horse pulled on itself the entire hardest part of the war, where the technique was useless.

Horse yes, cavalry no.
By the way, the Germans also used heavy draft horses, especially when they attacked at 41.

[Ingvard chijoff]

I'm not talking about the cavalry, of course. The Germans used horses everywhere and everywhere and they did not have time for heavy trucks, any were suitable.

[RUSS]

Voroshilov's assessment by Marshal Zhukov: "Voroshilov remained a dilettante in military affairs to the end: he could not keep up with its development, he could not capture all its versatility, and most importantly, he did not catch the development prospects." Indeed, Voroshilov's speech in 1938 is known, in which he, a passionate lover of cavalry, a conservative of military affairs, seriously asserted that: “The Red cavalry is still a victorious and crushing armed force and can and will solve big tasks on all combat fronts ". Against this background, the fact that one of the legendary tanks of the Great Patriotic War - KV - bore his name looks ironic. By the way, this name was given to the tank by Joseph Vissarionovich, who respected the People's Commissar very much.

[aglet]

"Voroshilov's assessment by Marshal Zhukov"
But do you know about the assessment of Zhukov by various military leaders of those times, and personally by Comrade Stalin?

[mat-vey]

Quote: aglet

"Voroshilov's assessment by Marshal Zhukov"
But do you know about the assessment of Zhukov by various military leaders of those times, and personally by Comrade Stalin?

And they will pull this out when it will be necessary to support some kind of fairy tale from the times of "Ogonyok".

[RUSS]

Quote: aglet

"Voroshilov's assessment by Marshal Zhukov"
But do you know about the assessment of Zhukov by various military leaders of those times, and personally by Comrade Stalin?

Stalin forgave Voroshilov for failures that would cost anyone else their lives. As a people's commissar, Voroshilov was unable to prepare the troops for the war with Finland. At the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the commander-in-chief of the North-Western direction allowed the blockade of Leningrad. In Voroshilov, Stalin valued personal loyalty. The reason is that dictators need decorative figures that, with their insignificance, would set off the majestic figure of the leader. Voroshilov, indeed, is the only one with whom the General Secretary was on the "you", admitted in communication party nicknames - "Koba" and "Volodin", allowed in your office, bang your fist on the table and break out in abuse.

[Byurer]

And where, in fact, is the debunking of the "myth"?

[vladcub]

Quote: aglet

"My grandfather, by my mother, was in the Marine Corps, defended Sevastopol. He did not speak censorship about S. M."
and what is the attitude of S.M. had to Sevastopol at that time?

S.M.Budyonny was the commander-in-chief of the North Caucasian Front, and Sevastopol was not a hotel front

[aglet]

"S.M.Budyonny was the commander-in-chief of the North Caucasian Front, and Sevastopol was not a hotel front"
during the assault on Sevastopol, Budyonny commanded the reserve front, this is quite far from the Crimea. your grandfather was commanded by a sergeant, an extreme. He could see the weekday only in a photo in the newspaper, he could not know anything about his plans and orders, because the weekday did not order him. how could he judge Budyonny's actions elsewhere, even as a Marine? and where does the general Budyonny, if the article is about Voroshilov?