Military Review

Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing

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Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing

The first part of the article The Leaky Umbrella of the Fleet caused a violent reaction, up to the accusation of the author of lying and of blaming the new ships of the Russian Navy and their weapons. Actually, the arguments of the opponents boiled down to the fact that


"Well, the target was shot down",

especially since it was

"first time",

"The developer will finalize"

etc.

Obviously, a detailed analysis of the "Thundering" firing is necessary (and the real work of the IBMK "Zaslon" to ensure the operation of the "Redut" air defense missile system). In addition, it is advisable to uncover complex (including old) air defense problems of ships and the Navy. For the situation is such that only the media can objectively do this today.

But first - according to the official information of the Ministry of Defense (Department of Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (DIMK) of Konashenkov). From the official response to the report of the author of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on unreliable publications of DIMK, No. 203/366 dated 06.03.2019, signed by the first deputy head of DIMK A. Komarov:

All materials and publications ... concerning ... the development of the RF Armed Forces, published in the media, are reviewed and evaluated by specialized specialists and military command and control bodies. Only based on the results of the consideration, a conclusion is prepared, which is used as an official commentary for the media.

As the saying goes, "read and enjoy." And about the landing ships in the role of minesweepers with trawls (as it was in the official information of DIMK on the exercises "Caucasus-2020"), and about the "conquest" of the target rocket with 30-mm machine guns "Thundering". All this was prepared by “specialized specialists” and “governing bodies” of the Ministry of Defense (in quotes) and “chief experts” of DIMK (as the deputy head of DIMK A. Komarov officially stated) ...

And there is no need to ask the author questions about why he makes a start from the official comments of the Ministry of Defense.

Well, now - to the shooting.

Rocket fire "Thundering"



The missiles went to the target.

DIMK published a video of the shooting, where, incl. the screen of the optoelectronic system was demonstrated at the moment of hitting the target missile (RM-15) of the 9M96 SAM.


The data indicated on the information field of the reticle clearly indicates the flight altitude of the RM-15 target missile at the time of its destruction (at a distance of 9 km) about ... 100 m (70-120, according to various estimates).

Sorry, but after all real anti-ship missiles (anti-ship missiles) fly at completely different heights! At the same time, at the terminal section, the height of their flight can be almost 1,5 meters above the crests of the waves!


Shooting at the US Navy BQM-74E Chukar target missile, "sultans" in the water from being hit by 20 mm shells.

The obvious "price" of the fraud and forgery with RM at 100 meters in the shooting of the "Thundering" is visible from the memoirs ("historical sketches ") Captain 1st rank Pechatnikov V.K. (officer URAV USSR Navy):

“... The previously predicted development of air attack means (a possible decrease in flight altitude) in 1974 received reliable confirmation (encryption from Washington, addressed to all members of the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee and signed by a“ GRU resident ”) about the start of development in the United States of cruise anti-ship missiles flying on extremely low altitudes (3-5 meters above the wave crest). Of course, the first reaction is: it can't be. But as more and more evidence was received, tension began to build.

Finally, the impossibility of effectively dealing with such targets, which are in service with the SAM ships, was revealed during the large-scale exercises "Proba-77". 20 RM-15M target missiles were allocated, with a modified radio altimeter. In practice, due to the scatter of aerodynamic characteristics, the target flight altitude was 8–11 meters. The results were disappointing. The complexes designed to combat enemy aircraft and quite confidently shot down missiles flying at altitudes of more than 100 meters, turned out to be ineffective against low-flying targets (NLC). Of course, because they were designed as anti-aircraft, and the lower boundary of the affected area was 100 meters (for "Osa-M" - 50).

Exercises "Proba-77" fully answered - the probability of shooting down a rocket flying at an extremely low altitude for different complexes is in the range of 0,12-0,17.

Calling a spade a spade, the rocket firing of the Thundering is a shame and a disgrace. Such targets were effectively hit by the air defense system of the 60s. type "Wave", - wrote A.P. Mikhailovsky in his work "Ocean parity. Commander's Notes fleet":

“… Two RM-6 target missiles and two RM-15 missiles with the calculation of their simultaneous approach from different directions to the squadron of ships. The first RM-6 was knocked down by the Admiral Isachenkov with a single launch. The RM-15, flying up after, was sent to the bottom by the Smyshleny. But with the second RM-6 I had to tinker. The "Indestructible" who was shooting at her missed.

By repeated launch, Marshal Tymoshenko set fire to the target, but did not shoot it down. Engulfed in flames, leaving a plume of black smoke behind it, the lionfish continued to rush straight towards the cruiser. It is not enough good if this barrel of burning kerosene falls on your deck! ..

The problem was solved by the fire of the cruiser's bow battery of anti-aircraft machine guns. The burning ugly creature fell apart and fell into the water just two cables on the right side of the Alexander Nevsky.

The last target RM-15, meanwhile, under the guise of finished off "Ognevoy".

That is, calling things by their proper names, the result of the “Thundering” firing would not be at all bad for another “Thundering” - this one.


Also "Thundering", but BOD project 57 (1960-1991) with the "Volna" air defense missile system. RM-15 at 100 meters, just his target.

As for the thesis “there will still be shooting, they will learn” (hereinafter, an insider's quote from one of the special resources, actively advertising the IMBK Zaslon):

"This is certainly not the last shooting, given the parameters of the downed RM and the customer's wishlist in TTZ, believe me."

The following must be said. State tests are, first of all, confirmation of the fulfillment of the specified requirements of the TTZ (tactical and technical assignment).

The way the IBMK "confirmed" them (in quotation marks) clearly says that the RM-15 with the radar seeker (and the EPR is more than an order of magnitude larger than the EPR of real targets), was specially "lifted" to a hundred-meter flight altitude and shot down by only 9 km! Before the Gos stage, there is a preliminary test stage ("Chief Designer tests"), where products or a complex are "taught to walk" (detect, hit ...).

And if what the "Thundering" "shot" is still suitable for the first shooting of the PI stage (and even then, only the first, with such a "result" on the Gos it is impossible), but in no way acceptable for the Gos. Moreover, the insider's quote directly states that the customer's TTZ was not confirmed during these "tests" (in quotes). "Then, someday" (and for the next big money of the customer).

Of course, the TTZ itself is a closed document. However, there is an "open version" of it (albeit a very truncated one) - this is an escort advertising passport of the MFRLS "Zaslon":

Maximum detection range in interference-free conditions with normal radar, km: - high-altitude targets (HC) (EPR more than 1 m2) up to 75 - low-flying targets (NLC), surface targets (NC) 0,9–0,95 radio horizon range.

The first thing that can be noted is that 70 km of the IBMK range against a target with an RCS of 1 m2 is, to put it mildly, sparse. Those interested can compare this parameter with aviation Radar "Irbis", and the comparison will be quite correct, because the Navy of JSC "NIIP" proposed a radar complex for small ships based on "Irbis" (this did not arouse interest, but more on that below).

Second, assuming the worst conditions - the radar height of 20 m and the target flight height in these tests, 70 m, we get the radio horizon according to the RM-15 in these tests 48 km (in reality - more). We take the declared 0,95 for the STC, we get 44,5 km, on which the IBMK simply had to detect and conduct the RM-15 with an EPR of 1,3 m2 (while according to the TTZ it is obvious that this figure is much higher). This value is close to the far border of the 9M96 missile defense zone.

Let's take the reaction time of the air defense missile system for 10 seconds (for a ship in combat readiness No. 1 there are a lot), then the missile defense system will be launched at a distance of 40 km to the target. Let's say the average speed of convergence between RM and SAM is 1 km / s, then the target will be hit in 40 s at a distance of about 26 km.

In fact, we have a target defeat at 9 km! Forgive me, but even the Sosny missile defense system works at such ranges (an order of magnitude cheaper than the gold 9M96)!

Moreover, such "results" (in quotation marks) of the "promising super-radar of the Navy" turn out to be rather pale even against the background of firing by the land-based air defense system "Tor-2MKM" on the frigate "Admiral Grigorovich", despite the large number of shortcomings in the organization of these firing "Torah "And the preparation of equipment for them.

What (and who - their creators) really worked at "5+" on these firing - SAMs 9M96.

At the same time, the presence of an active radar seeker (ARGSN) in them made it possible, in general, to organize firing in such a way that the defeat of the RM-15 would be ensured even without turning on the IBMK (by the console target and the stopwatch). Moreover, according to unofficial information, the issue of "firing missiles at the stopwatch" was considered, but nevertheless they decided not to disgrace themselves at all ...


The screen of the navigation radar of the Corvette "Thundering" with a "high-speed target" console broadcast from the ship's means (the "sword" of the velocity vector is highlighted on the screen) from the direction of the designated launch of target missiles.

SAM 9M96 are of extremely high importance and value for our air defense, primarily for increasing the ammunition load of the S-400 ground-based air defense systems. And in this situation, firing 9M96 missiles to hit a target at a distance of 9 km -

this is "to heat the oven with banknotes".

We have very serious budgetary constraints on the 9M96 series.

("No money, but you hold on").

Until now, none of our S-400 air defense systems has received "additions" to the ammunition of the new 9M96 missiles. And the only thing where they went en masse was the Turkish S-400.


Turkish SAM S-400E with 48N6E2 and 9M96E2 missiles (c) twitter.com/UretimYerli

From the article by A. Khramchikhin "The problems of the Russian air defense are surrounded by silence":

The fact that one missile defense system can shoot down no more than one target, apparently, does not need to be explained to anyone at all, this is arithmetic at the level of the first class. The combat algorithms of the S-300P and S-400 imply the use of two missiles at one target during automatic combat work; you can switch to the option "one missile - one target" only manually. That is, if there are 64 missiles ready for launch in the regiment, then it can shoot down a maximum of 64 targets, in reality - 32. After that the regiment is "reset". The standard for reloading one launcher (PU) for "excellent" is 53 minutes. That is, it will take at least an hour to restore the regiment's combat readiness., which is too much in the conditions of modern war.

However, in reality, the regiment will not recover in any hour, and in two, too. Just because the composition Air defense systems do not include charging vehicles; divisions do not even have at least one spare ammunition. All this should be brought from the missile storage and preparation bases. ...The United States has a very real opportunity to "load" Russian air defense systems with a huge number of BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-158 JASSM-LR missiles, "and so on and so forth."... This problem is becoming more serious, which we are already seeing on a small scale in Syria. But here she is turned into a "figure of silence".

This extensive quote is worth citing (interested readers are encouraged to follow the link. There is a very iconic "correspondence" in the media on this topic. With very clumsy attempts by the RF Ministry of Defense to object). Those. SAM 9M96 (and its long-range modifications) are very, very necessary for our anti-aircraft gunners. And "to hammer nails in with them" is, to put it mildly, "a mistake is worse than a crime."

And this is not only and so much about "the economy must be economical" (and the military economy - even more so). This is precisely the question of the effectiveness of the military system of the state, its real defense capability. When money for defense begins to simply squander on "cartoons" (effective only in "presentations"), then there will simply be no reliable and effective defense, because there will not be enough funds for it: all will be "eaten" by "effective managers" and "reputable businessmen" ...

Artillery shooting


The data of the ship sighting devices show that immediately at the time of the firing of the SAM, a very successful and accurate 100-mm gun mount A-190 looked exactly in the direction of the RM approach (to the starboard side).


The real shooting was carried out at a simulated target (like all previous ones, according to the RF Ministry of Defense) on the left side.


The desire of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (and the Navy) to receive the ship (corvette "Thundering"), in fact, without real tests of artillery - hitting real targets from under the radar fire control system, causes bewilderment. At the same time, very expensive ammunition at sea was “regularly thrown away” - for simulated targets.

What prevented you from working out at least on the Saman mass missile targets? Or to drive a Grad launcher to Cape Taran and at least once shoot at real air targets (albeit very far from the enemy's real anti-ship missiles)?

Here, in a positive regard, it is necessary to note the command of the Pacific Fleet, where for the two previous corvettes there was much greater adherence to principles and responsibility for testing new technology than at the Baltic Fleet. ... For example, the shooting down of the RM-15 at 7 km by artillery (the result is very, very good) was during the tests of the Pacific Fleet's lead corvette. The firing accuracy was then ensured by the Puma radar, designed to guide artillery to the target.

It is worth quoting from the comments to the previous article:

The article mentions the Puma system, and more than once. Let's remember at least with a kind word the Chief Designer of the Puma system and the director of the Ametist design bureau Nikolai Andreevich Shunaev, as well as the ideologist of the radar part of the system, Vasily Petrovich Zorin. Shunaev was fired in 2000. Then Zorin also left. Shunaev died of a heart attack in 2005, Zorin in 2006 ...

With a high probability, the Pacific Ocean would not have allowed to "lift" the target a hundred meters during the tests of the "Redut", as it was "allowed" at the BF, but as regards artillery, they raised the question harshly. Unlike the Baltic Fleet, the gun fired at the Pacific Fleet, and, according to rumors, the target was lower than in the Baltic. On December 17, the project 20380 Aldar Tsydenzhapov corvette, equipped with a simplified modification of the IBMK, successfully shot down the RM-120 target missile launched by the Iney MRK. True, "Tsydenzhapov" did not fire rockets ...

It should be noted that, on the one hand, the RM-120 is a very tenacious target (for which the developers of the air defense missile system do not like it very much), but on the other hand, it is a large-sized and rather high-flying target (lower than the RM-15 on the Thundering tests, but higher than the modified RM-15M can go at extremely low altitude). The fleet simply does not have targets adequate to real goals. They are afraid to shoot at the RM-24 (hitting a heavy engine or the missile itself on the side). They are also expensive. And there are very few of them. Mass “Samanas” (converted old SAM “Osa-M” SAMs) attacking anti-ship missiles cannot really imitate).


Photos from the round table on the topic of air defense of naval ships at IMDS-2019.
Here one cannot but recall the extremely problematic "near line" of most of our new ships (projects 20380 and 11356) - 30-mm AK-630-02 assault rifles. From the article by A.V. Zhukov "On the effectiveness of naval artillery installations in repelling anti-ship missiles":

“… The answer to the question about the low efficiency of the existing domestic artillery complex AK-630M is in a completely different plane. In the AK-630M complex, the quality measurement system, gun mount and fire control system MR-123 MTK 201 are made in the form of four independent posts and are located at different seats ...

Separate placement of the gun mount and control system in the AK-630M leads to large firing errors due to the impossibility of taking into account the deformation of the ship's hull and inaccuracies in the parallax correction between the posts.

Shooting errors reach 6 mrad instead of 2 mrad in the "Goalkeeper" complex.

... The multi-point scheme is sometimes offered in domestic complexing systems. Obviously, the effectiveness of artillery fire in this case will be low, which will discredit not only the caliber of shells, but also the benefits of gun mounts in the short-range air defense system ... "

I would like to emphasize that this is not a “private opinion”, but a professional opinion of the Chief Designer of the near-border marine complexes of KBP JSC.

Draw conclusions about the "effectiveness" (in quotation marks) of the close range of the air defense of naval ships. (And, accordingly, the unwillingness of the Navy to check this line by tests and during combat training. The consequences will be too scandalous).

Golden turret "Zaslon"


The aforementioned insider and lobbyist for Zaslon:

Zaslon is a good system. Conceptually, it's better than Polyment. At least, the possibility of practical installation on ships with a smaller displacement, the declared modularity and the integration of almost all means directly into the "turret", which reduces the ship's RCS. All this in 10 seconds, offhand and without reading the documentation.

Yes, there was a price to pay for "miniaturization". Yes, integration into ships with a significantly larger displacement and the operation of the IBMK with new missiles and target types will require time and money ...

The bottom line is that I do not see any real alternatives to fine-tuning the IFRLC. "Positive-Sigma-Pantsir" from Klimov is not an alternative, but a technical degradation and (already in the medium term) a path to nowhere. The complex must (and will) be refined. Both for the reason stated above and because the money has already been spent.

I see only one serious and really ineradicable drawback in IFRLK - the price. Everything else is practically solved during the debugging.

“Marriage” of “Positive” with 9M96, 9M100, “Sigma”, “Redoubt” and the rest of the REV for 20380 is an OCD for 3-5 years, without a guarantee of a positive final result.

Although "Positive-M" itself is really a good thing, it is true ...

He is in September this year:

“There (“ Zaslon ”and“ Thundering ”) have no serious problems at all, pah-pah. If, for comparison, we take the situation with the P-R (meaning the epic with the delivery of the lead frigate of Project 22350), there is heaven and earth. Although comparing how both ROCs were financed is not surprising. "

And this was written in September, after a half-year disruption of the deadline for the delivery of "Thundering". P-R - this is the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system of the frigate of project 22350 (with the far border of the affected area of ​​140 km "highlighted" in the official materials of the RF Ministry of Defense). At the same time, instead of it, a supposedly "new air defense system" is proposed (in fact, there is nothing like that), which on Gosakh was able to fill up a large target at a hundred meters only by 9 km! Moreover, the fact of very abundant and regular financing of work on the IBMK (in contrast to the P-R) is recognized.

The lobbyist is right only with the price. She is simply monstrous for this inoperative handicraft "from the Skillful Hands" circle - almost like the head corvette in the series.

Here it would be appropriate to recall the series of articles on "VO" on project 20386 with "Barrier" (“Worse than a crime. Construction of the corvettes project 20386 - error ", “Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam »), which, having a similar cost, actually "ran across the road" to the many times more effective frigate of Project 22350 with "Polyment-Redut".

Actually, the "logic" (in quotes) of these lobbyists from industry and the media (it made sense to quote them from the Internet resource, if only because similar "argumentation" is used in the "high offices" to "discourage" and "push" Barrier ") - the level of the cat Basilio and the fox Alice from" Buratino ":

"Drive the money!"

At the same time, there are (lettered and serial) funds, where the problem (for which the cunning gentlemen are going to "master" huge budget money for many years) was solved "yesterday" (writes a major domestic specialist):

"Positive" - ​​"Sigma" were worked out on the head 22800. "Positive" - ​​"Carapace" interface protocols were worked out back in the days of these for "Dirk". "Pantsir" - "Sigma" - RLK (from "Pantsir") on order 253, project 22800.

"Marriage of Positive and Reduta" is 3 months of coordination of the interface protocols between Varshavskaya, Setun and Kaluga.

And the comment of the same specialist about the desire of "Zaslon" "sometime later" "after all" to install means of radio correction on its "golden tower" (having spent more ... lard).

In ... [cut by the censor, - MK] "Barrier". Do not let him get close to this task! If you want to get the result. Only radio correction antennas of the "Redut" itself. Almaz-Antey has them. KGAI.464657.

The question arises: "What is going on in general?"

And what happens is that in 2010, an organization that previously developed airfield air conditioners, takes up the development of a "promising radar complex" for the Navy. Moreover, firms with vast experience and authority on radar (specifically, for example, Fazotron and NIIP) were immediately pushed aside from this (abundantly funded) topic.

At the same time, this organization declares its readiness to make its own radars "for everything": after all, "innovative", "modular", "everything is in order" with advertising and administrative resources ...


Screen from the advertising video of JSC "Zaslon": "mriya" IBMK from MRK to a heavy nuclear cruiser.

"The subject of inspiration" of the golden turret of the "Barrier" was Thales "tower".

At the same time, our "rationalizers" were unable to analyze even the elementary foreign development. For example, the I-MAST 400 has centimeter-band antennas placed on the “tower” as high as possible (because they actually solve the problems of a low-altitude detector, and due to the height, a long range is achieved for such targets). Accordingly, the decimeter radar antennas of the I-MAST 400 are located below.

And what about the "Barrier"? "Of course, the opposite."

As it should be "an innovative system that has no analogues." However, the approach to the issue turned out to be even more "creative" on the version of the MFRS "Zaslon" for project 20386, where the radio horizon (and the possibility of detecting low-flying targets) was maximally "slaughtered" by placing antennas on the superstructure.

Where did the Navy and the Ministry of Defense look at the same time (for example, when accepting a draft and technical design)? Unknown.

However, if we focus on the unconfirmed opinions of “insiders” about how [/ b] how [/ b] this project was approved, it turns out that the responsible persons saw it already with the signatures of the Commander-in-Chief and a number of other leaders ...

At the same time, the "Barrier" climbed not only into the ship's radar. Fans of "kicking" and "zirconizing" American AUG should pay attention to the phrase of the above-mentioned insider-lobbyist of "Zaslon":

In 10 years ... they will finish the "Liana" to a working state.

Don't be surprised. The "Zaslon" also took over the theme of the ship communication stations with the "Liana" satellites. In 10 years they will finish, maybe. And the Navy will have to intensively “feed the process of assimilating budget funds” all this time.

That is, in conditions when the risk of a global war is constantly growing, and we, perhaps, have the last years of peace, the last money that should have been spent on weaponare spent on stuffing the pockets of literally a few people - with the connivance of the state.

But what are we going to fight then, when the time comes?

By the way, the Zaslon lobbyists carefully hide behind the answer to this simple question with the phrase:

"There will be no war ...".

Actually, what did you want? If the immediate head of the organization-developer and manufacturer of the "innovative supersystem" is appointed a person who left his previous enterprise in a "state of a tailspin" (and this is in the conditions of a "fat" export contract!)? The irony of fate (sad and tough): the most risky part of the concluded contract of JSC ASZ for 6 corvettes for the Pacific Fleet is precisely IBMK Zaslon (and there is not only a question of price) from an organization whose managing director is the former CEO of ASZ (with a long a train of very heavy "corkscrews").

What else can we expect? If the other leader of this "innovative development" was the person personally responsible for the disaster with the air defense of previously built corvettes? Moreover, the experts shouted about this even before the fatal decisions were made (that is, those who did it perfectly understood all the consequences).

Conclusion


1. RLC "Zaslon" is obliged to pass full-fledged State tests with full verification of the entire scope of the requirements of the TTZ. In the current state, equipping ships with it is impractical, since it does not correspond to the TTZ.

2. The most massive ships of the fourth generation - the project 20380 corvettes - have such critical air defense shortcomings that they can be drowned by a competent attack of one or two aircraft. Technically, the solutions have these drawbacks, however, tough organizational measures are required to urgently "seal the holes" in their air defense.

3. AK-630 is the most widespread air defense system in the fleet, and the issue of its mass modernization, with placement on a single foundation with gun mounts of aiming means (at least optoelectronic), is extremely important.

4. Those in charge of the technical policy of the Navy must finally understand that attempts to create a superweapon from a corvette can only lead to a collapse in the number of the Navy and to nothing else. In theory, I would like to get a corvette with the power of a frigate. But in practice, we have for the same money: instead of a series of combat-ready ships (albeit built "not according to the latest fashion"), there are several incapable ships with a superweapon that has never been obtained. And this is always the case with everyone: Americans, British, French. We cannot be an exception. And in fact they didn't.

5. Law enforcement agencies should finally pay attention to what is happening. Since (purely legally), if "Thundering" after such Gosov will be accepted into the combat composition, then the actions of each person who signed the acceptance act will have "serious legal issues." And it's time to do something about it. The personal interests of "respected" people have not just come into conflict with the country's defense capability, they are already simply destroying it.

In the near future, an analysis of the capabilities of domestic shipbuilding for mass and inexpensive saturation with naval ships, taking into account the capabilities of the domestic industry - for contrast.

PS


It would be unfair not to report everything to law enforcement agencies.



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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 25 December 2020 10: 11
    +30
    Not a specialist in the fleet, from the word "absolutely", but after reading the article I will write briefly - depressing ...
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 25 December 2020 10: 23
      +35
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Not a specialist in the fleet, from the word "absolutely", but after reading the article I will write briefly - depressing ...

      It cannot be bad everywhere, but good in one place. I'm afraid, and with the defense in general, not everything is as rosy as we are told.
      1. Dread
        Dread 25 December 2020 11: 01
        +7
        Quote: Maxim Klimov
        Second, assuming the worst conditions - radar height 20 m and target flight altitude in these tests 70 m, we get radio horizon according to RM-15 in these tests 48 km (in reality - more).

        Dear Captain! You are confusing radio horizon with radio visibility.
        With a radar antenna height of 20 m and a target flight height H = 70 m, we have
        1. The radio horizon is 18,43 km.
        2. Range of direct radio visibility
        - 52,92 km.
        1. Galleon
          Galleon 25 December 2020 11: 18
          +11
          Dread, what did you think? Your numbers are too small. 18 km is seen by the signalman with full visibility from the signal bridge at a height of about 15 m. And you have a 20m antenna and a 70m target height. The radio horizon should be larger.
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 25 December 2020 11: 36
            +6
            He counted correctly.

            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 13: 47
              +7
              Where is it right?
              Read the terms carefully.
              we get a radio horizon according to RM-15 in these tests 48 km

              The author spoke about RADIOGORIZONT.
              Find the same word in the calculator.
              Radio horizon - 18 km.
              The author was mistaken in terms - not a radio horizon, but a direct radio visibility of the target of about 50.
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 25 December 2020 13: 49
                -1
                I'm talking about "Dred". The author wrote the wrong term, it happens. "Galleon" I got on some wrote.
                Take a closer look at the numbers.
                1. Alexander Vorontsov
                  Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 13: 55
                  +4
                  What about "Dread"? Dred got it right.
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 25 December 2020 14: 00
                    -1
                    That's what I wrote. "He counted correctly." Don't be stupid.
                    1. Dread
                      Dread 26 December 2020 04: 45
                      +7
                      Quote: Maxim Klimov
                      In this case, our "innovators" were unable to analyze even the elementary foreign development. For example, the I-MAST 400 has centimeter-band antennas placed on the “tower” as high as possible (because they actually solve the problems of a low-altitude detector, and due to the height, a long range is achieved for such targets). Accordingly, the decimeter radar antennas of the I-MAST 400 are located below.

                      Dear Captain! "Power is in the truth!"
                      Why don't you like Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...
                      You are somewhat confusing the forward range equation and the maximum range equation - they are not the same thing.
                      Basically, decimeter radars are used for a long distance, in which EMW (electromagnetic waves) are less attenuated in the earth's space due to water vapor and precipitation, they spread further due to refraction, better bend around obstacles due to diffraction, and so on. However, there are also disadvantages - the larger dimensions of the antenna systems and the smaller rectangularity of the probing pulses, hence the lower accuracy in determining the range to the target ...
                      Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
                      The radar is higher than the centimeter radar antennas for a greater detection range according to the direct range equation, which determines the greater radio visibility, and the maximum range equation - the technical capabilities of the radar - which I cited above. Centimeter radars are very sensitive to precipitation, sometimes even the use of polarizers in antenna mechanics does not save you from large rainfall illumination, while missing targets is possible.
                      Captain - you just haven't figured out what the French want. Russian
                      Constructors are stronger in this matter!
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 59
                        +2
                        Quote: Dread
                        Captain - you just haven't figured out what the French want. Russian
                        Constructors are stronger in this matter!

                        YOU are illiterate nonsense
                        Quote: Dread
                        Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
                        Radar above centimeter radar antennas for greater detection range according to the direct range equation, which determines greater radio visibility, and the maximum range equation - the technical capabilities of the radar - which I cited above

                        1. ONCE AGAIN - DM WORKS LOW IN THE DRIVE LAYER
                        2.CM - GOOD
                        3. MM is even better, but there are very serious problems with GMU
                        more than 90% navigation radar - 3cm range
                        acc. for the maximum radio horizon, it is the CM-radar that should be as high as possible!

                        Quote: Dread
                        Why don't you like Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...

                        wassat
                        and they also have three heads and five arms
                      2. Dread
                        Dread 18 January 2021 14: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: Dread
                        Basically, decimeter radars are used for a long distance, in which EMW (electromagnetic waves) are less attenuated in the earth's space due to water vapor and precipitation, they spread further due to refraction, better bend around obstacles due to diffraction, and so on. However, there are also disadvantages - the larger dimensions of the antenna systems and the smaller rectangularity of the probing pulses, hence the lower accuracy in determining the range to the target ...
                        Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
                        Radar above centimeter radar antennas for greater detection range


                        Quote: Fizik M

                        1. ONCE AGAIN - DM WORKS LOW IN THE DRIVE LAYER
                        2.CM - GOOD
                        3. MM is even better, but there are very serious problems with GMU
                        more than 90% navigation radar - 3cm range
                        acc. for the maximum radio horizon, the CM-radar should be as high as possible!

                        Basic Radar Equation.

                        Captains: Klimov and Timokhin, the basic radar equation shows completely my correctness and your complete illiteracy. The numerator under the root of the equation is the wavelength squared. Decimeter waves are attenuated less, since they have a long wavelength and decimeter wave antennas should be set higher, the target detection range will be greater - the main purpose of long-range radar is to detect a target! However, at the same time there are problems with maintenance, and what I wrote above. therefore
                        it is also necessary to use centimeter radars for guidance, more accurate, by definition, target parameters.
                        The French, on the other hand, followed the path - the use of centimeter radars at once in order to reduce the amount of equipment on board. However, at the same time they are forced to significantly increase the power of the radar transmitting devices, which greatly reduces the efficiency of the equipment and requires more powerful power sources, which is not good.
                        Captain Klimov! And now regarding your statement about the drive layer - you hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. I will give you a few expressions about this:
                        1. One of the most important mechanisms of radio wave propagation centimeter range
                        is the evaporation waveguide, since
                        transceiver points of the ship communication and radar system are either within it or above it. The evaporation waveguide actually constantly appears directly above the ocean surface in the presence of a rapid decrease in humidity with an altitude that in the adjacent air layer reaches
                        one hundred%. Humidity decreases rapidly with height and narrower at heights of several meters reaches the value, which is determined by general meteorological conditions.
                        2. The influence of the sea surface on the space-time structure of the electromagnetic field propagating over it causes a limitation of the radar range and a significant deterioration in the accuracy of measurements of the angular coordinates of surface objects. Various effects occur when working in millimeter or centimeter range at angular heights of the observed objects in units of milliradians, when due to strong darkening with the irradiating field, only the tops of sea waves interact.
                        And in this case preferably install decimeter antennas
                        above centimeters. In general, the technical installation of antennas is carried out by designers, and not by illiterate captains of the Russian Navy, such as ... (but not all such captains)!
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Quote: Dread

                        Why don't you like Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...

                        and they also have three heads and five arms

                        Captain Klimov with Captain Timokhin - you are very far from the designers of Russia in radar.
                        This is for you - I proved it above!
                      3. 2534M
                        2534M 11 February 2021 10: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Dread
                        Captains: Klimov and Timokhin, the basic radar equation shows completely my correctness and your complete illiteracy

                        fool
                        Quote: Dread
                        The numerator under the root of the equation is the wavelength squared. Decimeter waves attenuate less

                        fool
                        Monsieur, DO YOU generally realize WHAT TRAPPING YOU ARE CARRYING?!?!?
                        the question is not about "fading" but THE INFLUENCE OF THE DRIVE LAYER !!!!
                        Quote: Dread
                        However, at the same time there are problems with aiming, and what I wrote above.

                        YOU didn’t "write" anything at all, but shrieked an illiterate nonsense
                        Quote: Dread
                        The French, on the other hand, followed the path - the use of centimeter radars at once in order to reduce the amount of equipment on board.

                        TO PSYCHIATRIC
                        DM channel in the "Tyles Tower" IS
                        and it is located CORRECTLY
                        Quote: Dread
                        radar transmitting power, which greatly reduces the equipment efficiency

                        Monsieur, fYzYk-hYmYk, but would not YOU be willing to confirm YOUR ACHINA with at least some "evidence"? wassat
                        Quote: Dread
                        Captain Klimov! And now regarding your statement about the drive layer - you hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. I will give you a few expressions about this:
                        1. One of the most important mechanisms for the propagation of radio waves in the centimeter range
                        is the evaporation waveguide, since
                        the transceiver points of the ship's communications and radar systems are either within or above it. Evaporation waveguide

                        wassat
                        TO PSYCHIATRIC
                        I'm not a doctor
                        Quote: Dread
                        In general, the technical installation of the antennas is carried out by designers, and not by illiterate captains of the Russian Navy!

                        Monsieur ILLITERATE TRAPPING Dread! YOUR "counter-PULLERS" "promising antennas" on "promising projekt" 20386 have set so that:
                        - DM WAS NOT AT ALL
                        - SM-ANTENNAS HAVE BEEN AT A HEIGHT AND A HALF TIME LESS THAN 20385
                        Quote: Dread
                        Captain Klimov with Captain Timokhin - you are very far from the designers of Russia in radar.
                        This is for you - I proved it above! Learn materiel, illiterate captains!

                        Monsieur ILLITEATE dread, PSYCHIATORS don't even cry for YOU, but CRY lol
  2. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 25 December 2020 11: 14
    +7
    Quote: Svarog
    I'm afraid, and with the defense in general, not everything is as rosy as we are told.

    If we analyze the wars of this year, the picture is generally not rosy, on the contrary. Just 2 examples, there are many similar examples.
    At 80 (!) Km from our base, MALE-class UAVs fly en masse, destroying the ground troops of the ally and striking its airfields.
    In 15 minutes, half of the air defense of our ally is destroyed, or rather our air defense, tk. it is united. Although, 2 months before, exercises were conducted against this.

    Turkish UAVs hit the airfield in Hama. Russia does not guarantee security for Turkish Air Force over Syria
    March 2 2020

    https://topwar.ru/168518-tureckie-bpla-nanesli-udar-po-ajerodromu-v-hame-rf-ne-garantiruet-bezopasnost-dlja-vvs-turcii-nad-siriej.html

    Armenia lost four of the six Russian-made Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems (the most modern models) deployed in Karabakh in the first 15 days of the war, and half of the entire NKR air defense was destroyed in 15 minutes on September 27.

    This was stated by the former secretary of the Security Council of the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic Samvel Babayan.
    According to him, after the destruction of the "Thors", four more complexes were sent to the combat zone.

    Planned exercises of the joint air defense system of Russia and Armenia started in Armenia today. (23.07.2020)

    The main task: to study methods of countering reconnaissance and strike UAVs.
    Press Secretary of the Armenian Defense Ministry Shushan Stepanyan reported this on his Facebook page.
  3. paul3390
    paul3390 25 December 2020 11: 25
    +10
    And so everywhere, where people, instead of doing business, they saw the loot .. Even in the USSR, and unfortunately this was the case, I can imagine what kind of battle for the development of the budget is going on now .. For the sake of profit in the right pocket, they sniff any bullshit .. Capitalism, sir ..
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 26 December 2020 02: 44
      0
      Paul hi ,
      after all, not "sawflies", their children and other uryakalka will perish when it comes to "hot".
      1. SARANCHA1976
        SARANCHA1976 30 December 2020 16: 53
        0
        As soon as they smell fried, their children will immediately fly away to our potential opponents .. well, who is not there yet
  4. Malyuta
    Malyuta 25 December 2020 11: 45
    +20
    Quote: Svarog
    It cannot be bad everywhere, but good in one place. I'm afraid, and with the defense in general, not everything is as rosy as we are told.

    Around the collapse and cut.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 26 December 2020 02: 45
      0
      And there are no guilty ones, of course. All "ours". Except the "switchman". hi
  5. bayard
    bayard 26 December 2020 05: 34
    +8
    "One vizier, betraying the king
    Has entered into a criminal conspiracy with enemies
    And armed the army with glass swords
    And the army died in that battle ... in vain

    And courage armed with glass
    It didn't help us against damask steel ...
    If the whole retinue breathes treason
    And the stupid king is just their puppet ... "


    "Treason always disguises itself as well-meaning stupidity.
    And passing off the doll as a "king", he passes off theft as ... stinginess
    Like "no money", "alas and ah" ... taxes, pensions, tariffs ...
    And "Happy New Year to you friends" ... all from the 90s unfinished. "

    Everything is really "not so rosy".
    1. Malyuta
      Malyuta 26 December 2020 07: 16
      +15
      Quote: bayard
      "Happy New Year to you friends" ... all from the 90s unfinished. "

      Everything is really "not so rosy"

      Then the hope was that here ... here ..., and now "It was a difficult year ....."
      1. bayard
        bayard 26 December 2020 07: 29
        +5
        It's just a meme ... now every year we have a "difficult" one. And this one, so simply - amazing.
        Quote: Malyuta
        Then there was hope

        Someone now. yes
        The hopes of young men are nourished. bully
        To whom it is now more convenient to blame everything on the "precursors" (predecessors). First - to the "dashing 90s", now - to the Soviet Union (in which only galoshes were produced).
        ... Soon they will remember about "accursed tsarism" ... although ... repeat After all, they want everything as under Nicholas II ... to return ...
        Holy FEUDALISM with a bourgeois touch of "novelty". fellow
        What ships ?!
        What planes ?!
        For this you need to work ... creatively ... persistently and for a result ...
        Not ! stop
        It will be easier to master the budget. bully
        1. Malyuta
          Malyuta 26 December 2020 08: 02
          +14
          Quote: bayard
          ... Soon they will remember about "accursed tsarism" ... although ... they want to feel everything as under Nicholas II ... to return ...

          For this, the playfurer lacks only the Lena execution and bloody Sunday, and, accordingly, the columns in the "nobleman" patchport. That is, on those vaults through hanging and all business then.
      2. Fast_mutant
        Fast_mutant 26 December 2020 17: 33
        +1
        So that's it! For the last 15 years for sure!
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  • Machito
    Machito 25 December 2020 10: 28
    +9
    In 1990, the older brother demobilized from the quiet fleet. He served in Kamchatka in the OVR at the MRK. He told how, during the exercises, the MRK did not shoot down the rocket with anti-aircraft guns, the rocket entered the wheelhouse and the MRKashka stitched right up to the car, the box fell apart, and the sailors sank. Rocket training is a dumb gem.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 25 December 2020 11: 08
      +18
      Yes, there was such a story. Killed MRK "Monsoon", 1987, Pacific Fleet. We used a non-standard Termit-M target missile. Instead of the expected height of 100-200 meters, this one went at an altitude of 25 m. As a result, neither two missiles nor a gun could hit the target. And the incorrectly disconnected seeker aimed exactly at the middle of the ship instead of going higher. Despite the lack of a warhead, there was enough fuel left to destroy the boat.

      Everything is exactly as Klimov writes. We hoped to shoot at the target at 100 meters, for the report, but the target came in as real. Low-flying missiles still have nothing to effectively hit. In fresh weather, they are lost in interference from the water surface.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 25 December 2020 12: 04
        +3
        Quote: Saxahorse
        As a result, neither two missiles nor a cannon could hit the target.

        what Didn't the fragments of the KILLED missile hit Monsoon?
        1. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 26 December 2020 00: 39
          +8
          Quote: Serg65
          Didn't the fragments of the KILLED missile hit Monsoon?

          The Monsoon was hit by a target missile. Although the "Wasp" worked on it with two missiles and artillery fire was fired. And they even reported that the target was shot down. And take the target and hit exactly the wheelhouse of the ship. MRK burned out and drowned.
          This is not an isolated case. In 1990, the fate of the "Monsoon" at the Baltic Fleet was almost divided by the "Meteor" MRK, but then nothing happened - the target rocket went higher, knocked out the antennas, everyone got off with a slight fright.

          By the way, after the death of "Monsoon", the commission conducting the "debriefing" also concluded that it was necessary to develop "measures to dramatically improve the quality of anti-aircraft missile and artillery systems, radar stations of ships for guaranteed destruction of cruise missiles in the self-defense zone."
          Perhaps the measures were developed. However, as often happens with us, they are not implemented in life. And, as we see, things are still there.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 26 December 2020 20: 25
          0
          Quote: Serg65
          Didn't the fragments of the KILLED missile hit Monsoon?

          There were no debris or debris, the rocket had gone entirely. In the official version, there was an assumption that one of the last shells did hit the rocket and it suddenly dived down. In general - "accidents inevitable in the sea".

          Nobody observed this visually. The rocket entered exactly the middle of the picture, as it should be when the seeker is working. Indirectly, this is also hinted at by the sudden replacement of the target missile at the last moment. The old P-15 Termit had to be used, it basically cannot fly below 100 meters. But at the last moment, either they did not find it, or it turned out to be faulty, they replaced it with a P-15M "Termit-M". He has a different GOS. Indeed, they could screw up or show "initiative" without having instructions on how to set up this GOS for the target.
      2. huntsman650
        huntsman650 26 December 2020 00: 56
        +1
        And what about the SDC regime?
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 26 December 2020 20: 31
          +1
          Quote: huntsman650
          And what about the SDC regime?

          Works but with problems. As I understand it, due to the fact that the wave is also moving. There are problems with spectrum filtering. Well, the signal from the PRK itself is weak.
          1. huntsman650
            huntsman650 26 December 2020 23: 13
            0
            I used BALL and VARU. But also useful si
  • Kart
    Kart 25 December 2020 10: 33
    -32%
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Not a specialist in the fleet, from the word "absolutely", but after reading the article I will write briefly - depressing ...

    That's why it is written.
    That's why you comment here. That would be depressing.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 25 December 2020 10: 40
      +9
      With great pleasure I would write words of admiration and phrases of gratitude to domestic gunsmiths and sailors.
      But, unfortunately, his colleague Svarog is probably right - "not everything is calm in the Russian kingdom." On the "military-industrial complex" fronts, at least.
      And if you think that VO publishes only negative news on purpose and at the same time constantly visit it, then you are ... an informational masochist, perhaps?
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 26 December 2020 02: 52
        +11
        The author, Maxim Klimov, is a professional naval sailor and an honest man. For this, he is nothing representing himself, incl. "floating", kremblevoty spread rot and scoff.
        1. Victorio
          Victorio 26 December 2020 16: 36
          0
          Quote: lexus
          Author, Maxim Klimov - professional military a sailor and an honest man. For this, he is nothing representing himself, incl. "floating", kremblevoty spread rot and scoff.

          ===
          professional critic now. well, in terms of the quality of the material they give out, this is current specialists.
        2. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 26 December 2020 20: 43
          -9
          only for some reason he blames everyone around for his cant, that he screwed up with the article on the teachings and is now trying to cover it up with all available means
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 55
            0
            Quote: Boris Chernikov
            in his jamb that he screwed up with the article about the teachings and is now trying to cover it up with all available means

            lying bunny, you are delusional
  • prior
    prior 25 December 2020 10: 35
    +18
    I read the article and felt like a defenseless target ...
    Is it possible to call a country a successful state where such a mess reigns ?!
    Purely "sawmill" for cutting the budget .....
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 25 December 2020 11: 06
      -26%
      Quote: prior
      I read the article and felt like a defenseless target ...

      Trouble-ah ... Oh, trouble ... wassat wassat wassat However, for the Klimov "audience" this is the norm. yes
    2. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 25 December 2020 12: 26
      -11%
      Quote: prior
      I read the article and felt like a defenseless target ...

      Exactly! There are so few of them and they are so expensive! I propose to create a "Target Protection Society" - # YAMISHEN. And then, you see, they shoot at them than without hitting - with different rockets, and cannons ... And to fly low-low, where it is not scary, is not allowed! Free your targets! "Target Heaven" is the dream of KBCH-2.
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    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Vasiliev S.
        Vasiliev S. 25 December 2020 11: 54
        +3
        For such a dirty business as poisoning, people are needed, first of all, devotees.
        Competence is also needed, but the contingent of devotees is not large, and they make their way through devotion, as a rule, because they are not very competent.
        At the same time, for positions in the design bureau, the list of requirements may well include a candidate.
        Not only.
        And after that - "unable to even analyze the elementary foreign development"? !!
        Ну can not be such.
        1. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 12: 06
          +19
          Believe me, having an advanced degree is not an IQ indicator. In addition, the scientific community is full of outspoken careerists who, for certain bonuses, can test almost any solution (this is me, as a person who is a little involved in the scientific world, I can honestly confirm it)
          1. Vasiliev S.
            Vasiliev S. 25 December 2020 12: 11
            +1
            I agree.
            As if I worked in geophysics, I had to communicate ...
            Actually, I'm not trying to assert that everything is fine with us, that it's as big as mountains, etc.
            But I don’t like the article - it’s kind of loud ...
    2. timokhin-aa
      25 December 2020 13: 08
      +19
      Or maybe you are scribbling comments here for a doshirak? If you have information about other antenna locations, feel free to post it.
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 26 December 2020 02: 54
        -1
        Alegsander hi,
        please send my regards, words of support and thanks to Maxim for the article.
      2. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 26 December 2020 09: 59
        -8
        soldier Well, make a mine (in the sense of a mine buyout Klimov is his nickname) sponsons in the sides from 4 sides of the ship and in them so to swing behind glass or even like mb turning about a storm or covered with a streamlined shell .. so that the radars were low for RPNVs and also different frequencies and even on the HBO towers, make an early detection, while all-frequency and with a clear rotation, i.e. at least 3 sets at once ... can't you? so no one can) draw 2 meters of armor from the area at the stern of the tank ...
  • antivirus
    antivirus 25 December 2020 12: 23
    -4
    "Tukhachevsky effect" .............................................. .................................................. .......... will be in demand?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Evil Booth
    Evil Booth 26 December 2020 09: 55
    -6
    Klimov in his repertoire. suddenly there is no radar station seeing from a height of 10 at a height of 1 against the background of water with a wave and for the target to move) the same discovery for me. In the USSR, there were anti-ship missiles attacking like torpedoes, they dived under the water on approach and walked in the water. Sosbtveno so what and about air defense and about in NATO on orablyah for low targets is definitely useless, look at the bare butt of old cruisers in AUG there is NOT nothing, or maybe something bad. the number of systems is also lower than ours, as is the range of sights. in addition, the author clearly messed up by issuing 1 test of the ship for technical readiness with a test for the limiting parameter. it's like requiring a KPVT bullet to have a full reach of 9 km in this test, but it can be 7 km! and that's ok !!!. but generally cunning attacks yes .. very dangerous current is to put it mildly not a secret. and repeats the situation on the ground of the current of the anti-ship missiles, all the same, they can be lower in comparison with the CD, and it is still more difficult for ships to have the type of radars on the towers. frankly, I always put cannons along the side like on a sailing ship)) at dozens of points of fire)) and what and what ... about reloading, he is also oh surprise .. yes, everyone knows that. without recharging. but how will they write so oh that you will shoot all 24 granites and not let 48 and not in the nose where the dead zone is stupid and that's all .. even at 10 meters fly at least 1.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 25 December 2020 10: 26
    +22
    Strong and ... sad if everything is as written.
    The author OFFICIALLY applied to the authorities, and this is already a REAL responsibility, an attempt to influence events. This is already very serious.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 25 December 2020 10: 30
      -28%
      Quote: rocket757
      This is already very serious.

      Cap three Klimov M.A. in stock (from the last century?) is not serious. No one will admit him to the performance characteristics - neither the court nor the prosecutor's office, no matter how much he wishes.
      1. Kart
        Kart 25 December 2020 10: 35
        -41%
        This is another article from the mega-specialist "who served and commanded" that everything has already disappeared.
        Fundamental, with justification, figures, pictures.
        It is clear that no one will refute this as fundamentally.
        And the reader's brains, at least a little, will be dirtied by this.
        There are just a lot of such articles here on VO lately.
        They walk together, one by one, and right there in the comments there is a well-known group of mourners for 10 footcloths of the text.
        That's it, the job is done.
        And the more messages about launches, construction sites, etc. - the more this madness.
        It's just a shame that this is VO, once a respected and objective site.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 December 2020 10: 46
          +25
          This means that when everything is praised and urya it is "objectively and respected", and when they criticize it is "snot and demonic possession." At one time, with this approach, they jumped to the Germans near Moscow and in the Caucasus. History teaches nothing at all?
          1. Nasrat
            Nasrat 25 December 2020 10: 58
            -8
            Quote: Sea Cat
            At one time, with this approach, they jumped to the Germans near Moscow and in the Caucasus.

          2. Boris55
            Boris55 25 December 2020 11: 19
            -17%
            Quote: Sea Cat
            At one time, with this approach, they jumped to the Germans near Moscow and in the Caucasus. History teaches nothing at all?

            Teaches. The war begins only when part of the elite is ready to surrender the country.

            The fact that the Germans ended up near Moscow is primarily the fault of the Trotskyists in power, who, with the help of external forces (fascists), wanted to remove the Bolshevik Stalin from ruling the country and come to power themselves. When the Trotskyists realized that nothing would come of it, then they drove the Germans to Berlin (the weapons were different? - not much).

            The use of external power to achieve domestic political goals is not new. Look at the same color revolutions that are happening with outside support.

            The Soviet Union was not destroyed by atomic bombs - it was destroyed by the corrupt elite.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 25 December 2020 11: 24
              +12
              The fact that the Germans ended up near Moscow is primarily the fault of the Trotskyists in power,

              Such statements must be supported by facts. What are the names of the Trotskyists in the power structures of the USSR in the period from 1935 to 1940?
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 25 December 2020 11: 25
                -11%
                Quote: Sea Cat
                What are the names of Trotskyists in the power structures of the USSR

                Khrushchev - was originally a member of Trotsky's party.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 25 December 2020 11: 27
                  +13
                  So it is Khrushchev alone who is to blame for the fact that the Germans reached the Caucasus ?! wassat
                  It is not even funny.
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 25 December 2020 11: 37
                    -12%
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    It is not even funny.

                    It is sad when a person does not understand how the government is structured.

                    You will compare the size of the party before the revolution and after the revolution:



                    The number of Bolsheviks and Trotskyists in the party was 1: 8 in favor of the Trotskyists. In order to govern the country, the Bolsheviks were physically not enough. For this reason, they were forced to take the cadres who decide everything from the Trotskyists. At 38 they were cleaned up a bit, but not all.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 December 2020 12: 06
                      +8
                      Oh, come on, Vyshinsky was at one time a Trotskyist and that did not stop him from putting both of them against the wall. And as for understanding how power is arranged in a state ruled by a dictator, let's better not talk about it. Moreover, Khrushchev is to blame for everything.
                      1. Boris55
                        Boris55 26 December 2020 09: 10
                        -2
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        And as for understanding how power works in a state ruled by a dictator

                        You have too naive ideas about the structure of power in the state.

                        For you that Grozny, that Stalin, that Putin - these are people, at one request of which, the boyars throw off their trousers, kneel down and backward with a can of Vaseline outstretched, they say: "choose me, choose me" ...

                        This is your mistake. This is absolutely not the case.

                        "State policy and governance in a crowd-" elite "society is an agreement reached on the capabilities of various clan-corporate groupings to use the state structure and system to achieve their narrowly corporate goals" - DOTU.

                        The State Council is a meeting of representatives of different clans (who are the leaders of the parties, etc.), to resolve inter-clan conflicts, where the president acts as an arbiter. His room for maneuver is limited by the desires of the clans. The desire of some can support, but others cannot.

                        They negotiate with the strong.
                        Weak (Shaimiev, Luzhkov, etc.) dictate their will.
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 27 December 2020 00: 01
                        +5
                        You have too naive ideas about the structure of power in the state.

                        I do not argue, there was never a desire to poke around in the garbage in order to fully understand its structure. But, regardless of this, she did not spoil the air and poison the environment less. request
                  2. Esoteric
                    Esoteric 25 December 2020 12: 20
                    +6
                    Sorry. And did not Comrade Lenin speak of Comrade Trotsky in extremely positive and admiring tones? Lenin is a Trotskyist?
          3. Serg65
            Serg65 25 December 2020 12: 08
            +9
            Quote: Boris55
            that the Germans ended up near Moscow is primarily the fault of the Trotskyists in power, who wanted to remove the Bolshevik Stalin with the help of external forces (fascists)

            wassat The insanity grew stronger, our tomatoes blushed !!!
        2. frog
          frog 25 December 2020 12: 20
          +4
          Well, here, after all, it may be different, colleague ... Maybe people are at work, and there - a job description ... It's not good to break it, is it? Of course, it may well be ..... "lover of kvass." They do not study history and are not in great friendship with real life repeat
        3. antivirus
          antivirus 25 December 2020 12: 26
          -7
          jumped to the Germans near Moscow and in the Caucasus.
          - came from the west.
          -but from the east they were not allowed.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 25 December 2020 12: 32
            +12
            -but from the east they were not allowed.

            And they themselves did not climb. smile
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 25 December 2020 13: 12
              -2
              the military tend to consider themselves great (eg Zhukov).
              And he won in the Second World War - the people, in the rear there may have been more feats than at the fronts.
              that is why I believe that the correct internal policy made it possible to minimize (?) threats from all other directions.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 25 December 2020 13: 21
                +5
                As for Zhukov, I agree with you; it is possible to argue with regard to the correct domestic policy, but it does not make sense.
                As for the "threat from other directions" - are you aware of the "struggle" for influence in the Japanese General Staff of two groups, naval and army? The "naval faction" won with its idea of ​​an offensive in the Pacific Ocean. History has no subjunctive mood, but if the “army men” had won, we would have had to fight on two fronts and no “correct domestic policy” would have helped here.
                1. antivirus
                  antivirus 25 December 2020 13: 45
                  -4
                  The "naval faction" won with its idea of ​​an offensive in the Pacific Ocean. History has no subjunctive mood, but if

                  -it was beneficial for the USA itself. a reason to expand the sphere of influence.
                  I read articles about Iran-Afghanistan. to Wo and other China-Mongolia. Turkey.
                  the most complicated foreign political "squiggle" was straightened by the titanic efforts of the peoples of the USSR.
                  much is not completed yet - due to internal factors. overstrained.
                  received the 8th warning from Tuman for the assessment of RSkomorokhov. (Wasp drowned) - "writes for the call. Galley slave"
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 25 December 2020 13: 56
                    +6
                    "writes for a call. a galley slave"

                    Well, I don’t know, I didn’t think so, and the style of presentation is captivating.
                    And about the warning, as my chief of staff said: "The reprimand is not a heart attack, you can survive."

                    PS And who is the Fog?
                    1. antivirus
                      antivirus 25 December 2020 14: 47
                      0
                      You violated the rules of the site, admitted in the comment:
                      "Trolling, provocation: Skomorokhov writes a lot - he gives out a plan for the mountain.
                      not for the soul, for citation VO.worker in galleys "in the article Sea stories. Torpedo nightmare September 15, 1942.
                      You have 8 violations. Site rules

                      this is the inquisition. you can write only in excellent colors about the Authors (and with a capital letter). it was in vain to read the art literature in childhood.
                      there is one style - the "site owner" thoughts are correct as well.
                      Fog - Anastasia, I don't know who.
                    2. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 December 2020 15: 12
                      +4
                      He also had warnings from this lady, and not from her alone. What can you do, it's pointless to be offended. By the way, the authors are often criticized, including Skomorokhov, and there seems to be nothing, no claims, maybe there is some kind of "special" attitude towards you?
                    3. antivirus
                      antivirus 25 December 2020 16: 57
                      +1
                      some kind of "special" attitude?

                      -not about "birds" - there is only one jamb-denial of the decisive role of the military in the Victory in the Second World War. - the people won, part of which rose from the trench, in boots and fed, to attack, and the other part worked "for themselves and for that guy" hungry and barefoot.
                      + otkryalovka to any strangers in the occupied territories, including civilizers from Europe.
                      a bright manifestation of the partisans. and simplified - strangers do not go here. only perish. because and doors without locks were.
                    4. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 December 2020 17: 21
                      +5
                      I slightly disagree on personalities, without such generals as Rokossovsky, Chuikov, Konev, and many others, of a lower rank, victory would hardly have been possible, or it would have been given with even greater blood and losses.
                    5. antivirus
                      antivirus 25 December 2020 17: 31
                      +3
                      I would call-- "other blood and other losses." Our Marshals (and most of the officers) of Victory are flesh of the people, they knew how the command would go and how they would execute it and what they would not do. What could be demanded and what should be abstained from under any circumstances - only volunteers to die.

                      also my cant is the denial of the need for aircraft carriers. Until we control the whole of Eurasia (or our enemies in it), we can’t climb over the seas.
                    6. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 December 2020 18: 12
                      +2
                      also my cant - denial of the need for aircraft carriers


                      Somewhere in the mid-seventies, there was another conflict between India and Pakistan. Both our fleet and the American one grazed there nearby, or rather grazed each other.
                      I happened to be at a closed speech by our Rear Admiral, who had just returned from there. So he almost talked to the swearing words about how the planes with American white stars constantly hanging over their heads got them, and what a massive delight there was in the squadron when our bombers with red stars passed at a relatively low altitude over this area. The psychological effect was amazing. And not only for us. I don't remember which country then allowed our planes to land for refueling, but if there were aircraft carriers in our squadron, the Americans would not have such total air supremacy.
                      And it was at this time that our country began to build aircraft-carrying cruisers.
                      But the interests of the state can arise anywhere in the world. So consider whether you need an aircraft carrier or not.
                    7. antivirus
                      antivirus 26 December 2020 12: 48
                      0
                      control of Eurasia-1 place - this is already France (2 thousand km) and other ports for disembarkation of the United States in Europe + Tychok - Yapi (from Primorye and Sakhalin)

                      in 7th place - AIRCRAFT CRUISERS - MULTI-PURPOSE, independent units (now they will also push PLO to air defense-KR and other trifles.
                      Ustinov did not build clean avs either. and we don't need it.
                    8. Catfish
                      Catfish 26 December 2020 23: 33
                      0
                      Kuznetsov is a clean aircraft carrier built in the USSR.



                      And he was not alone, by the way. hi
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 25 December 2020 19: 42
    +12
    Quote: Sea Cat
    As for the "threat from other directions" - are you aware of the "struggle" for influence in the Japanese General Staff of two groups, naval and army? The "naval faction" won with its idea of ​​an offensive in the Pacific Ocean. History has no subjunctive mood, but if the “army men” had won, we would have had to fight on two fronts and no “correct domestic policy” would have helped here.

    In fact, there were more groups. IJA only from the side of the USSR seemed monolithic and aimed at war with the Union - because we looked at it through the prism of the Kwantung Army.
    In real life, the Expeditionary Forces in China saw their goal as the conquest of China, the Kwantungs raved about a war with the USSR, and the General Staff in the Metropolis (who really assessed the results of the conflict at Nomonhan) already stated on 02.07.1941 that:
    The Soviet Union is too early to discount. We must wait 50 or 60 days. And only if we make sure that Germany is sure to win, will our turn come

    The reversal of the Japanese strike vector towards Southeast Asia is largely a merit of the US foreign policy, which systematically cut off Japan from oil (from the breakdown of the Japanese negotiations with the Dutch colonies to a direct oil embargo). The Americans, of course, pursued their own goals - but that helped us too.

    For the IJN and IJA (well, except for the scumbags from Kwantung) understood perfectly well that without regular oil supplies, it is possible to fight, but not for long. And even in the event of victory over the USSR, these supplies will still not be there is no gold in the Gray Mountains in the Far East at that time, there were no large developed oil fields. All of Soviet Sakhalin's annual production was less than IJN's two-month demand. So, in the event of a hypothetical war with the USSR, Japan would find itself in a worse position than without it: there is still no supply, there are no new deposits, and the existing reserves have been wasted. Come, black ships, take the islands with your bare hands. smile
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 25 December 2020 20: 02
      +3
      Come black ships, take the islands with your bare hands. smile


      In the end, they came anyway.
      Thank you for a sensible comment, Alexey. smile drinks
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 26 December 2020 12: 56
      +3
      + capture to Baikal (natural boundary) did nothing for victory in China and Southeast Asia (even without a war with the United States).
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 December 2020 10: 57
    +5
    Quote: Carte
    And the more messages about launches, construction sites, etc.

    Where are the messages? :))))
    1. frog
      frog 25 December 2020 12: 22
      +9
      https://topwar.ru/178485-peredacha-vmf-rf-treh-atomnyh-submarin-perenesena-na-sledujuschij-god.html
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 25 December 2020 11: 06
    +16
    Quote: Carte
    This is another article from the mega-specialist "who served and commanded" that everything has already disappeared.

    and, of course, regular comments from the "pink-eyed mega-commentators", such as "we have all the best, the best mega-ships, mega-missiles and mega Putin! Hurray!" and you can't prove to them that the sore subject with naval air defense and missile defense lasts for years, by the way, there are also problems with the GAS, and in this we really skid in comparison with the Yankes, for example, and skid for decades, but the "pink ponies" do not care, they continue tearing hair on my legs shouting "I will win everyone!" fool
  • qQQQ
    qQQQ 25 December 2020 11: 08
    +12
    Quote: Carte
    It is clear that no one will refute this as fundamentally.
    And the reader's brains, at least a little, will be dirtied by this.

    There is even nothing to refute fundamentally, the complex, which should shoot down targets within a radius of hundreds of kilometers at a minimum height, strikes a sufficiently high-altitude target for 9 km, this is a disaster, why is it needed then when the ancient air defense is coping with this goal?
    1. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 11: 57
      +13
      I have long and stubbornly asserted that the Redoubt for a ship of this displacement as such is redundant, since an updated version of the Dagger (with cells instead of drums) would be enough here, especially since the corvette is a BMZ ship, and therefore equip it with air defense exceeding the average range is impractical. True, from the average we have only Calm, but it is already heavy, but the Dagger, although it belongs to the short-range air defense system, really copes with the tasks assigned to it (among the alternatives to it, in fact, only the Israeli Barak). It seems like they promise that Pantsir-M will have characteristics similar to the Dagger, however, why fence a garden if the Dagger itself has perfectly demonstrated itself over the years of service? In addition, unlike the Shell, it does not have to be recharged. The only drawback of the Dagger is that you cannot surprise anyone with it and, as a result, get big on its development and subsequent implementation.
      1. qQQQ
        qQQQ 25 December 2020 14: 59
        +4
        Quote: Dante
        I have long and stubbornly asserted that the Redoubt for a ship of such a displacement as such is redundant, because an updated version of the Dagger would be enough here

        It may well be so, but I understand the obvious desire of the military, to have a longer arm, when they were also promised to do all this quickly and for cheap. And how they wrote it correctly, and how to get past the budget.
      2. huntsman650
        huntsman650 26 December 2020 01: 08
        +4
        He gave Dagger 13 years in the service. There is already a modernized Dagger, there is a social from the torus, it is much better than K12, it has one wide beam. And one !!! operator. Somehow the program on which the Dagger was handed over caught my eye. There is far more than one RMka !!!)
        1. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 26 December 2020 10: 38
          0
          There is already a modernized Dagger, there is a social from the torus, it is much better than k12

          Quite right, this was installed on the modernized Admiral Shaposhnikov, however, only in the front hemisphere, in the back for some reason they decided to leave the old antenna post recourse request
          1. huntsman650
            huntsman650 26 December 2020 12: 54
            +1
            No, there is a Puma, in the nose of the AP "Dagger" there is no (((on "Hat."
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Dante Alighieri
              Dante Alighieri 26 December 2020 21: 33
              +1
              No, this is clearly not a Puma. It looks different, and it takes up much less space.
              For example, I found the closest possible snapshot of the updated BDK and attached a mockup of the Puma's aircraft next to it, as well as a photo of how it looks live on frigate 22350. It can be seen that the current installed antenna post, compared to the Puma, is several times higher

              Personally, I am inclined to think that this is precisely the modernized antenna post of the Dagger itself, in which the SVR and SPK antenna from the TOR-M2 land complex were taken as a basis.
              1. Dante Alighieri
                Dante Alighieri 26 December 2020 21: 48
                +1
                I also found a picture where this thing apparently works in passive scanning mode because it is directed in the other direction
                1. huntsman650
                  huntsman650 26 December 2020 23: 15
                  0
                  This is not a Dagger 100 percent!
      3. Cympak
        Cympak 28 December 2020 14: 18
        +1
        Alas, "Daggers" have forgotten how to produce in Russia. And "Pantsir-M" can not be installed everywhere: it freezes on the tank, the smoke interferes with the chimney, on the helicopter hangar you are left without automated reloading of missiles ...
  • Malyuta
    Malyuta 25 December 2020 11: 51
    +23
    Quote: Carte
    And the more messages about launches, construction sites, etc. - the more this madness.
    It's just a shame that this is VO, once a respected and objective site.

    I'm sorry, but should BO just toss your nightcap into the air?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 December 2020 10: 54
    +21
    Quote: Boris55
    Cap three Klimov M.A. in stock (from the last century?) is not serious. No one will admit him to the performance characteristics

    He works in the defense industry, as far as I know, so he knows quite a lot.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 25 December 2020 11: 08
      +12
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      He works in the defense industry, as far as I know, so he knows quite a lot

      So he was not the only one who worked there. The question is when and with what level of clearance.
      It is clear that military, service, Goss secrets and all that stuff ... but knowledge, the ability to analyze even available information, it remains with us .... for a long time.
      I myself had to watch / listen to victorious reports, advertising, propaganda videos and swear, swear, be disappointed!
      Those who served in the army do not laugh in the circus ... and those who have been in the shoes of a military representative rarely laugh at all.
      The article is not for a bang or it's all gone. An attempt to illuminate the problem at the level that is available to us.
      Maybe someone will remember how once, at the Pacific Fleet, missile boats were conducting exercises to repel a missile attack and how it ended .... by the way, in front of our sworn "partners" ??? The information should be, although it was a long time ago.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 December 2020 11: 35
        +9
        Quote: rocket757
        I myself had to watch / listen to victorious reports, advertising, propaganda videos and swear, swear, be disappointed!

        No doubt who's arguing. hi
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 25 December 2020 13: 02
          +6
          To constantly sing the song "Everything is calm, calm in Baghdad ...!" Is a dangerous business!
          Constructive criticism, only for the benefit of the grandfather, always and everywhere!
  • timokhin-aa
    25 December 2020 13: 10
    +18
    In stock since 2009. Then - in the defense industry. The last closed issue is in the first half of 2020.
    It's all right?
    Well, traditionally - in essence, there is something to object?
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 15: 00
      -2
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      In stock since 2009. Then - in the defense industry. The last closed issue is in the first half of 2020.
      It's all right?
      Well, traditionally - in essence, there is something to object?

      In essence, it would be great if they answered the question, which gives reason to believe that 9 km is the maximum range of destruction of this complex (which follows from the context of the entire post).

      Normal, serious question.
      1. timokhin-aa
        25 December 2020 16: 06
        +7
        I am transmitting the answer from the author of the article, M. Klimov:

        I have NOT written ANYWHERE that 9 km "the maximum range of destruction of this complex" is YOUR LIE, moreover, the article clearly states that this figure is more than 4 times higher (according to the characteristics of the 9M96 SAM "Redut" SAM).
        However, one of the requirements for testing air defense equipment is verification, incl. FAR BOUNDARY of the affected area (set in TTT). Here, they simply "hammered the bolt" into her, and they fired so that the "golden tower" of the "Barrier" could be turned off altogether, the missile defense missile system would have covered the control center's errors anyway.


        More in another comment.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 16: 38
          +2
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          I am transmitting the answer from the author of the article, M. Klimov:
          I have NOT written ANYWHERE that 9 km "the maximum range of destruction of this complex" is YOUR LIE, moreover, the article clearly states that this figure is more than 4 times higher (according to the characteristics of the 9M96 SAM "Redut" SAM).
          However, one of the requirements for testing air defense equipment is verification, incl. FAR BOUNDARY of the affected area (set in TTT). Here, they simply "hammered the bolt" into her, and they fired so that the "golden tower" of the "Barrier" could be turned off altogether, the missile defense missile system would have covered the control center's errors anyway.

          More in another comment.


          OK. I understood. Those. "the blame" is that the "camera" was not launched at the maximum distance.

          By the way, is there a document confirming that these tests were supposed to be firing exactly at the maximum range?

          How the situation looks in my understanding.
          There is a complex. It has certain calculated characteristics (theoretically) and has actual capabilities (which can be either slightly higher or lower than the calculated and / or stated in open sources).

          So the actual possibilities, in my understanding again, are not checked publicly.
          Shooting on which REAL boundaries are revealed ... and the capabilities of this complex, a priori
          1) not single shooting
          2) not public

          Unless, of course, we want to make the task as easy as possible for our opponents by providing them with the most accurate numbers.

          Not a single person in their right mind will demonstrate the real limits of their weapons on camera.

          Well, for some reason, Maxim assumes that the setting of such a task was serious and bad that it was not fulfilled.
          I think it is good that it has not been implemented. And I hope that the command has enough brains to understand the above logic.

          Therefore, I consider all the round dances of the maxim around these firing to be unfounded. see above "logic does not allow us to perceive these firing as a reliable and EXHAUSTIVE source of information on the effectiveness of this complex."
          1. timokhin-aa
            25 December 2020 17: 18
            +5
            Alexander Vorontsov
            How the situation looks in my understanding.
            There is a complex. It has certain calculated characteristics (theoretically) and has actual capabilities (which can be either slightly higher or lower than the calculated and / or stated in open sources).
            So the actual possibilities, in my understanding again, are not checked publicly.


            from Klimov:
            Musier !, YOU are absolutely IMMEDIATE TRAPPING! We look at GOST 203:
            5.6.1 The purpose of the stage of state testing of a prototype VT product is:
            - assessment of the combat capabilities of the created VT product, verification and confirmation of the compliance of the technical and operational characteristics of the VT prototype with the customer's TTZ requirements to carry out development work;
            ...
            https://documentsite.net/1962895/

            So WHERE is the CONFIRMATION of these requirements TTZ (and on a heap of parameters, but only DGZP), taking into account the fact that this shooting "Redoubt" from under the IBMK was the ONLY one?!?!
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 17: 44
              +4
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Alexander Vorontsov
              How the situation looks in my understanding.
              There is a complex. It has certain calculated characteristics (theoretically) and has actual capabilities (which can be either slightly higher or lower than the calculated and / or stated in open sources).
              So the actual possibilities, in my understanding again, are not checked publicly.

              from Klimov:
              Musier !, YOU are absolutely IMMEDIATE TRAPPING! We look at GOST 203:
              5.6.1 The purpose of the stage of state testing of a prototype VT product is:
              - assessment of the combat capabilities of the created VT product, verification and confirmation of the compliance of the technical and operational characteristics of the VT prototype with the customer's TTZ requirements to carry out development work;
              ...
              https://documentsite.net/1962895/

              So WHERE is the CONFIRMATION of these requirements TTZ (and on a heap of parameters, but only DGZP), taking into account the fact that this shooting "Redoubt" from under the IBMK was the ONLY one?!?!

              I say absolutely sensible things. The fact that you saliva here will not change.
              The fact that some arguments seem unpleasant to you suggests that the question is "personal" for you and that you are deeply biased and your real arguments are extremely weak.

              We look at GOST 203:
              5.6.1 The purpose of the stage of state testing of a prototype VT product is:

              I do not know of course about you, but in my understanding Prototype should be tested BEFORE being adopted.

              So that on the finished ship, it would no longer be an EXPERIMENTAL sample, but a serial one, if possible, devoid of childhood sores.

              If you do not understand, then I am in favor of this - testing of the ship, which is transferred to the fleet, this is not "testing a prototype."
              These are state tests of the ship - and they are fundamentally different from the entire scope of testing of prototypes. Towards simplification. The cannon fires. The rocket takes off. Everything is working. Is the ship ready? The ship is ready.

              Logically. Before equipping a ship, it is necessary to make a decision about how to arm it. Based on ... some data. And this data ... should come from ... "prototype tests." BEFORE deciding to build a ship with this weapon.

              So WHERE is the CONFIRMATION of these requirements TTZ (and on a heap of parameters, but only DGZP), taking into account the fact that this shooting "Redoubt" from under the IBMK was the ONLY one?!?!

              Obviously, these results should not be made public.
              And this is not a question for me. There are people who did this, shout at them, sprinkle them with saliva))) True, such a hyip won't work) Likes will not be delivered.
              1. timokhin-aa
                25 December 2020 23: 05
                +4
                Of course, I don't know about you, but in my understanding, the prototype should be tested BEFORE being put into service.


                The prototype ceases to be experienced after the state tests. And you can't test a shipborne radar without a ship. At the stands, one can check the operability of individual systems, but the decisive moment is state testing on a complete ship.
                Tie up with verbiage.
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        2. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 20: 42
          +1
          Alexander welcome you! I carefully read both the previous and today's article and I have one question left: why did we actually all decide that during the exercises it was the 9M96E2 that was used, and not the 9M100? No, of course, I understand that testing a new air defense radar complex without using the maximum missile defense system for this complex is nonsense, but given the current realities, I personally would not be surprised at anything. Varying in diameter and length, the missiles are visually very similar in profile, so show me who this picture is and ask what exactly was used to hit the 9M96E2 or 9M100 target, I will most likely find it difficult to answer. This, however, does not in the least negate the fact of the use of pre-obsolete and inadequate target missiles, as well as the very controversial situation with the art.
          1. timokhin-aa
            25 December 2020 22: 58
            +4
            Visually, this is in an obvious way the 96th rocket.
            And the fact that 1 cell - 1 rocket also hints.
      2. Charik
        Charik 5 January 2021 04: 12
        -2
        My opinion is that the face of that soldier in the photo gives reason to believe that he is out of what he saw
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 54
        -1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        In essence, it would be great if they answered the question, which gives reason to believe that 9 km is the maximum range of destruction of this complex (which follows from the context of the entire post).

        this is YOUR personal pump
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 25 December 2020 10: 42
    -10%
    Quote: Svarog

    It cannot be bad everywhere, but good in one place. I'm afraid, and with the defense in general, not everything is as rosy as we are told.

    It cannot be that you wrote otherwise.))
    Your line has long been clear and predictable.
    1. qQQQ
      qQQQ 25 December 2020 11: 12
      +12
      Quote: Tagan
      Your line has long been clear and predictable.

      It's not about the line, it never happens that everything is bad, and suddenly bam and great. Now people from the same class are in charge, former apparatchiks and their children, they do not allow specialists, and with what joy will the defense industry be different?
  • Land defence
    Land defence 25 December 2020 10: 50
    +21
    Law enforcement agencies must finally pay attention to what is happening ... The personal interests of "respected" people not only came into conflict with the country's defense, they are simply destroying it

    I would very much like the law enforcement agencies to be independent enough to restore order in this area.
    Thanks to the author good
    1. Vasiliev S.
      Vasiliev S. 25 December 2020 11: 09
      0
      Law enforcement agencies are not competent in this area.
      Accordingly, nothing but confusion should be expected from them.
    2. Roman070280
      Roman070280 25 December 2020 11: 35
      0
      so that law enforcement agencies are independent enough



  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 25 December 2020 10: 56
    +17
    Excellent article.
    Maxim, in addition to your appeal, can anything else be done? Well, there, to organize the collection of signatures, or something else?
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 25 December 2020 11: 11
      -16%
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      to organize collection of signatures, or something else?

      Half measures will not save - only open disobedience and armed resistance. am wassat
    2. timokhin-aa
      25 December 2020 16: 07
      +4
      Yes, but more on that later.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 10: 57
    +26
    Even just for the fact of addressing the prosecutor's office to the author, a real bow.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 25 December 2020 11: 10
      +16
      Well, yes, this is no longer an empty blah blah, it is an assumed responsibility.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 25 December 2020 11: 04
    +32
    Quote: Bearded
    He told me how I did not shoot down a missile with anti-aircraft guns during the exercises,

    It was MRK "Monsoon" ... 1987 ... RM-15 was hit by two anti-aircraft missiles, which, as expected, exploded in the zone of its destruction. But further, instead of falling into the water, RM changed its trajectory and aimed at " Monsoon ", from which the brothers still managed to fire on it from the gun mount ...
    the box fell apart, and the sailors drowned.

    If they had drowned, it would have been all the more terrible - they would have burned alive ... At the moment of hitting the rocket, there was still fuel and an oxidizer left. Metal ship structures made of aluminum-magnesium alloy (AMg) became a "help" in the fire, they flared up like a torch Then 6 officers, 5 warrant officers, 23 sailors and foremen and 5 cadets-trainees died. Rest in peace, brothers ...
    37 people were saved. Then there was a similar case on the Twice Red Banner with the Vortex MRC, but the guys were lucky there - only a few antennas on the superstructure were knocked down ..
    PS The author is an indifferent naval officer.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 25 December 2020 13: 04
      +9
      Quote: Crowe
      further, instead of falling into the water, RM changed its trajectory and aimed at the "Monsoon"

      This is one of the versions!
      Quote: Crowe
      Then there was a similar case

      1972 Northern Fleet, DBK Utes hit the anti-ship missile minesweeper.
      1980 Black Sea Fleet, RRC Golovko hit the anti-ship missile minesweeper Kherson Komsomolets.
      1983 Northern Fleet, missile boat R-86 hit by anti-ship missiles
      2000 Black Sea Fleet, anti-ship missiles launched from the Redoubt DBK hit the Ukrainian ship Vereshchagino
      1. timokhin-aa
        25 December 2020 16: 11
        +12
        Forgotten Moldovan dry cargo ship
  • makmak
    makmak 25 December 2020 11: 09
    +7
    In my opinion, the article is based on a photo, where the parameters of the sight are indicated. But the coordinates of the target and the point of interception are not there, and visually the defeat was much lower ...
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 25 December 2020 12: 34
      +7
      Quote: makmak
      In my opinion, the article is based on a photo, where the parameters of the sight are indicated. But the coordinates of the target and the point of interception are not there, and visually the defeat was much lower ...

      See "Military Acceptance". They never showed hits on low-flying targets (a lot of gears for different complexes with real shooting).
      1. makmak
        makmak 25 December 2020 14: 13
        +2
        I agree, I looked - I did not see. But if this is a bad result, then relative to what? Which NATO (Chinese, etc.) air defense system works lower and further? Where is the video with objective control? The article contains an example from "Shooting at the US Navy BQM-74E Chukar target missile," sultans "in the water from being hit by 20-mm shells" - but here the work of artillery is apparently up to 2 km. The Wave thundering from the air defense missile system - but there is a difference in weight and dimensions, channelization, interference, working hours, etc. And most importantly: the target is hit by the first missile and still everything is bad. Give criteria for evaluation and for comparison, an example where "everything is fine".
        1. pmkemcity
          pmkemcity 25 December 2020 14: 23
          +2
          Quote: makmak
          But if this is a bad result, then relative to what? Which NATO (Chinese, etc.) air defense system works lower and further? Where is the video with objective control?

          I agree one hundred percent, but to be feared, we must be better!
    2. timokhin-aa
      25 December 2020 16: 11
      +5
      There is a target angle. The range was voiced by a trusted (more than) insider.
      Further - the school course of trigonometry.
      1. makmak
        makmak 25 December 2020 17: 26
        0
        I will assume that the elevation is relative to the crosshair of the reticle, not the target. And the height of the warhead's detonation is similar in trigonometry for the range sounded by an insider, but at what height was the target at that moment? After all, SAM strikes not only with a direct hit ... It is unlikely that we will be presented with objective data for reasons of secrecy. I repeat: But if this is a bad result, then in relation to what? Which NATO (Chinese, etc.) air defense system works lower and further? Is there a video with objective control?
  • Angry
    Angry 25 December 2020 11: 10
    +13
    Well done Maxim! But there is no prophet in his homeland! Scammers are robbing the country, Defense has been turned into Business! The Country does not care! They themselves live abroad .... and most importantly, they will not get anything for this sabotage? Or orders? A fleet without air defense!
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 25 December 2020 11: 22
    +10
    Separate placement of the gun mount and control system in the AK-630M leads to large firing errors due to the impossibility of taking into account the deformation of the ship's hull and inaccuracies in the parallax correction between the posts.
    Considering this quote, the height at which the target was shot down and other data given in the article, it is safe to say that the array of sensors used by firing computers, as well as the computers themselves, are at the level of the 60s of the last century. That is, these are variants of BSEM 6 with memory on ferrite rings and relay automation. Lord God ...
    A small example. One of many. Already 40 years ago, or even more, devices have been known that allow listening to speech in rooms, the windows of which overlook the viewed area. The principle of wiretapping is based on measurements of changes in the position of the window glass with a laser rangefinder. Anyone can imagine what are the geometrical values ​​of displacement of flat glass during a quiet conversation in the back of the room.
    And Mr. Chief Designer, without any hesitation, says that he cannot organize measurements of changes in the geometry of the ship ?! Yours to God, to your soul, to your liver, to your kidneys and other rotten liver ...
    1. TAMBU
      TAMBU 25 December 2020 12: 21
      +5
      cannot organize measurements of changes in ship geometry

      there parameters, most likely, are at least an order of magnitude larger and their calculation depends on constantly changing input data (including being in the aquatic environment), plus the heterogeneity of the structure itself, which must be calculated for each unit separately and most likely at a time. According to the input parameters, these are calculations almost at the level of the weather forecast ... I do not think that he was very cunning here, although a person can do everything ... if he wants)
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 25 December 2020 12: 26
        +5
        Probably more) Only here the Civil Code named these, and arguing that he was not able to measure them. In this case, the geometry of the ship does not need to be measured at every point. Honestly, the laser "herringbone", capable of providing modern computer mathematics with enough data, can be counted on your knee. And the data is enough. How much data is needed to decipher a human voice from glass? And computers even older than the 286th, and also in real time, coped with decryption. One hundred percent - BIUS developed by the USSR, covered with a new casing. Shame ...
        1. Vasiliev S.
          Vasiliev S. 25 December 2020 13: 15
          0
          Quote: Mikhail3
          BIUS developed by the USSR, covered with a new casing
          No.
          There are no specialists left for crumbling.
          It's easier to build on stm32.
        2. timokhin-aa
          25 December 2020 13: 30
          +12
          The fact is that in fact, the problems are almost insoluble, we, the Americans and the Chinese fought over it, in the end we were left with inaccurate fire control systems, and everyone is trying to screw the guidance radar directly above the barrel or next to it (see that the same "Falanx")
          1. Land defence
            Land defence 25 December 2020 14: 19
            +18
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            everyone is trying to screw the guidance radar directly above the barrel or next to it

            I keep thinking - why won't they do this? After all, this is the most logical decision. Does the shaking of the gun interfere?
            1. Lex_is
              Lex_is 25 December 2020 16: 11
              +1
              The radar does not fit
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 25 December 2020 19: 54
                +4
                Quote: Lex_is
                The radar does not fit

                Fits - only the result is heavy and cumbersome ("Dagger" and "Pantsir-M").
                1. Dante Alighieri
                  Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 20: 52
                  +2
                  And what prevents the use of the Palm / Broadsword, as, for example, on frigates of project 22350? Yes, this complex is more expensive, but not as much as the Pantsir, but it can be installed in the same place as the AK-630, which is confirmed by its tests, for which it was installed on the R-60 missile boat, project 1241. Yes, its dimensions More than 630 metal cutters, but there are more trunks, which means the density of fire is higher.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 28 December 2020 10: 23
                    +2
                    Quote: Dante
                    And what prevents the use of the Palm / Broadsword, as, for example, on frigates of project 22350?

                    Does the "Broadsword" have its own radar on the AU? Ibid, EMNIP, only ECO.
                    1. Cympak
                      Cympak 28 December 2020 14: 26
                      +1
                      "Broadsword" on 22350, in addition to its own ECO, receives information about the target from "Polynom"
    2. Dread
      Dread 25 December 2020 19: 48
      0
      Quote: Mikhail3
      A small example. One of many. Already 40 years ago, or even more, devices have been known that allow listening to speech in rooms, the windows of which overlook the viewed area. The principle of wiretapping is based on measurements of changes in the position of the window glass with a laser rangefinder. Anyone can imagine what are the geometrical values ​​of displacement of flat glass during a quiet conversation in the back of the room.

      Dear - conduct special research and give your recommendations, if you have such a right. I assume that now you do not have such rights and write about it completely out of place. The chatterbox is a godsend for a spy!
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 28 December 2020 09: 17
        0
        And where to write this "to the point"? Given the helplessness of today's "military science"? Radar mounted on the axis of the barrel. Mechanically. Mom dear ...
  • Roman070280
    Roman070280 25 December 2020 11: 30
    +8
    4. Those in charge of the technical policy of the Navy must finally understand ...
    5. Law enforcement agencies must finally pay attention ...


    the last money that should have been spent on weapons is spent on stuffing pockets literally a few people - with the connivance of the state.


    Now, if you take into account that stuffing your pockets does not take place with the connivance of the state, but with its support .. Then points 4, 5 can simply be thrown out of my head as absurd ..

    PS .. The State is not Me .. and not the Author .. and not the rest of the citizens of the country .. Our state is the very "literally a few people" .. They make all the landmark decisions .. and they cannot do anything or with connivance against yourself !!
  • mark1
    mark1 25 December 2020 11: 32
    +4
    So I say (they just threw a bag of minuses to me) that an official response from the Ministry of Defense with explanations is needed. For this, the editors of the site are quite capable of organizing an official request. Does someone really think that it is not necessary?
    1. timokhin-aa
      25 December 2020 13: 31
      +15
      It's useless, I wrote such requests based on articles, always the same reaction - unsubscribing.
      Klimov did that too.
      You just have to make the noise louder and that's it.
      1. mark1
        mark1 25 December 2020 13: 44
        +3
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        You just have to make noise louder

        Agree
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        I wrote such requests based on articles,

        It means that the status of the requestor needs to be increased, for example, an open request from a reputable media outlet (to which I think VO can already be included)
        1. timokhin-aa
          25 December 2020 16: 13
          +8
          He will still be redirected to the performers of the relevant subject - to the Main Command
          1. Dante Alighieri
            Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 21: 00
            +3
            One thing confuses me, if now to raise a fuss around the 20385th, will it not affect the construction of the ASZ of the declared 6 corvettes of this class (namely, coming from the latest news: two 20385th and four 20380th), for which you are Alexander for a long time? I understand the overpricing, which, moreover, may be far from the stated performance characteristics, but what is the alternative? It seems to me - to get at least this or not get anything at all. Correct if I'm wrong.
            1. timokhin-aa
              25 December 2020 22: 50
              +9
              In theory, you just need to refuse to supply Zaroslav radars for new ships until they start working on old ones. There are options for other complexes, and an article is already being written about this.
            2. A_Lex
              A_Lex 26 December 2020 00: 59
              +1
              It seems to me - to get at least this or not get anything at all.


              In principle, if the goal is to display the flag at parades that have become fashionable, then, of course, it is better to get something that works poorly than not to get anything at all, because the main thing for the parade is the corps itself, as well as the crew in beautiful shape.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 25 December 2020 11: 48
    -11%
    Quote: qqqq
    Quote: Tagan
    Your line has long been clear and predictable.

    It's not about the line, it never happens that everything is bad, and suddenly bam and great. Now people from the same class are in charge, former apparatchiks and their children, they do not allow specialists, and with what joy will the defense industry be different?

    Did you take Svarog's words as an axiom?
    As for Svarog, it is in the line. He has long been asleep, and is not capable of more effective and flexible tactics. They'll fire him soon. He spoils the air, but not as high quality as prescribed in the job description)))
  • TAMBU
    TAMBU 25 December 2020 12: 08
    +8
    No need to be surprised.

    I'm not surprised. Thanks for covering the topic.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 25 December 2020 12: 14
    0
    Quote: Dante

    It would seem that there should not be such persons as Petrov and Boshirov among the intelligence officers of the GRU, but we managed to surprise the world once again.

    Agree, you also surprise not weakly.
    How do you know about the GRU personnel? Are you a spy or a defector?)))
    Here is one more little nuance. The GRU has probably been called differently for ten years.
    Why rehash? ;)
    1. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 25 December 2020 23: 16
      +3
      How do you know about the GRU personnel? Are you a spy or a defector?)))

      Take it higher! Evil incarnate itself. Authorized representative of Satana Icorporeted. Would you like to sell your soul? 100% prepayment guarantee and customer service throughout the entire duration of the contract. System of bonuses and savings. High liquidity and practically no additional costs, with the exception of automatic inclusion in the number of voters of United Russia.
  • Alexander Vorontsov
    Alexander Vorontsov 25 December 2020 14: 46
    -1
    My findings.

    The more Maksim Klimov writes on this topic, the stronger some personal hostility towards the developers appears in the post and the more "emotions" become.
    From the stream of chernukha it becomes simply difficult to "get" worthwhile arguments, even if you want to understand the issue.


    Also "Thundering", but BOD project 57 (1960-1991) with the "Volna" air defense missile system. RM-15 at 100 meters, just his target.

    Here, the author continues to ignore the arguments repeatedly voiced in his previous topics - namely, the ship he cites belongs to a fundamentally different class and has twice the displacement.

    But apparently the author is so confident in the strength of his arguments that he is forced to resort to such comparisons, we wake up to compare a pistol with a submachine gun, and a submachine gun with a machine gun. So what is "different" ...


    Second, assuming the worst conditions - the radar height of 20 m and the target flight height in these tests, 70 m, we get the radio horizon according to the RM-15 in these tests 48 km (in reality - more). We take the declared 0,95 for the STC, we get 44,5 km, on which the IBMK simply had to detect and conduct the RM-15 with an EPR of 1,3 m2 (while according to the TTZ it is obvious that this figure is much higher). This value is close to the far border of the 9M96 missile defense zone.

    Let's take the reaction time of the air defense missile system for 10 seconds (for a ship in combat readiness No. 1 there are a lot), then the missile defense system will be launched at a distance of 40 km to the target. Let's say the average speed of convergence between RM and SAM is 1 km / s, then the target will be hit in 40 s at a distance of about 26 km.

    This is where it gets interesting.

    The logic is that the target flies at 70 meters. And according to theoretical calculations, it should have been hit at 26 km.
    And they struck at 9.

    Well what can I say .... well, we do not have any reliable information to draw real conclusions.
    This has already been written in the comments to previous articles.
    Well, a technically competent specialist cannot draw a conclusion based on 1 measurement. Moreover, with a positive result.


    War is the art of deception. It is absurd to assume that our command will shoot at 100 targets on all cameras during which the exact boundaries of the operation of this air defense system will be established.

    So that all NATO countries would receive the exact figure of 26 km, according to Klimov.

    Before their use, the Caliber had a range in open sources of about 400 km. And flew for 1000.

    Shot down a rocket by 9.
    What this suggests is that this is the maximum range.
    How did the author decide that this is the maximum range?

    from nothing.
    Nothing gives reason to believe so. But the author does not undertake to warn readers about this ...


    Sorry, but real anti-ship missiles (anti-ship missiles) fly at completely different heights! Moreover, at the terminal section, the height of their flight can be almost 1,5 meters above the crests of the waves!

    Well, it's fun here too.
    Calculate the detection range of a target that is flying not at 70 but at 20 or 5 meters.
    It turns out that they will shoot it down at about the same distances of 5-15 km (detect further, but hits will occur in these ranges)
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    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 45
      -1
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      From the stream of chernukha it becomes simply difficult to "get" worthwhile arguments, even if you want to understand the issue.

      but YOU DO NOT have a desire to understand
      YOU, Monsieur YksperD, are stupidly carrying an illiterate ACHINA
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Here, the author continues to ignore the arguments repeatedly voiced in his previous topics - namely, the ship he cites belongs to a fundamentally different class and has twice the displacement.

      RAVE
      the M-1 affected area is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the Reduta affected area
      and the displacement in general has nothing to do with the case
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Well what can I say .... well, we do not have any reliable information to draw real conclusions.

      do YOU ​​have a vision like?
      or tsifirki in the video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation "I really do not want to see"?
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Well, a technically competent specialist cannot draw a conclusion based on 1 measurement. Moreover, with a positive result.

      for the first part - YES
      and now an AWESOME QUESTION - HOW THEN THE GOSES "closed" - according to the ONLY TEST?
      about the "positive" (SO) "result" - see the navigation radar screen with the "sword" of the PANEL target - ie. they were preparing to shoot AT IT (PANEL !!! - that is, the "golden tower of the Barrier" could NOT be switched ON AT ALL!)
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Shot down a rocket by 9.
      What this suggests is that this is the maximum range.
      How did the author decide that this is the maximum range?

      monsieur, this is YOUR pump
      I clearly wrote that this range is MUCH less than the ZGZP
      but GOST 203 clearly says that there MUST be a TTT CHECK
      acc. - and DGZP
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Calculate the detection range of a target that is flying not at 70 but at 20 or 5 meters.
      It turns out that they will shoot it down at about the same distances of 5-15 km (detect further, but hits will occur in these ranges)

      counted
      YOU'RE LYING
  • hydroy
    hydroy 25 December 2020 16: 23
    -2
    Lord, one ship is new for the entire fleet and then you both)
    1. timokhin-aa
      25 December 2020 17: 20
      +6
      That is, accepting a ship without air defense in combat is good and right?
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 25 December 2020 20: 54
    +1
    Thanks to the respected brave Maxim Klimov for the truth!
  • Flashpoint
    Flashpoint 25 December 2020 21: 01
    +5
    This is all depressing. And the most offensive thing is that at my work (I am engaged in the automation of technological processes) everything is the same. At the same time, I clearly understand the following: you need to be an expert in the full sense (developed, tested, installed, configured, used - emphasize the necessary) in order to
    give out your expert opinion.
    On the one hand - there is no completeness of the test picture - and there may be gaps in the performance characteristics and a waste of time that could be used for revision;
    On the other hand, there is a large amount of information, everything is in a heap, there are many contradictions.
    PS: A little bit of positive! Well, let's have a corvette tow a barge from the S-400 - as a temporary solution. :)
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 26 December 2020 01: 07
    +1
    As I understand it, the corvette is what in normal times was called the TFR. The main function of the TFR is PLO.
    Those. the long-range air defense system in this project is not the most important thing, unlike, for example, 22350.
    In this regard, I would like to ask: how does the author assess the effectiveness of PLO 20380 (5)? Those. Do the regular GAS, Package, as well as the Ka-27M, to the level of which the regular Ka-27PL is supposed to be modernized, meet the requirements of the time?
  • Tagan
    Tagan 26 December 2020 05: 57
    -1
    Quote: Dante
    How do you know about the GRU personnel? Are you a spy or a defector?)))

    Take it higher! Evil incarnate itself. Authorized representative of Satana Icorporeted. Would you like to sell your soul? 100% prepayment guarantee and customer service throughout the entire duration of the contract. System of bonuses and savings. High liquidity and practically no additional costs, with the exception of automatic inclusion in the number of voters of United Russia.

    Well, everything is clear with you. If you need to sprinkle the head, please. Aspen stake with installation as a gift.
  • Alexander Vorontsov
    Alexander Vorontsov 26 December 2020 11: 10
    +2
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Of course, I don't know about you, but in my understanding, the prototype should be tested BEFORE being put into service.

    The prototype ceases to be experienced after the state tests. And you can't test a shipborne radar without a ship. At the stands, one can check the operability of individual systems, but the decisive moment is state testing on a complete ship.
    Tie up with verbiage.

    What you call verbiage is really an attempt to bring at least some structure into that shapeless, unstructured pile of material that was dumped.

    And I want to understand the real state of affairs - what is wrong.
    The author believes that a couple of people should be shot.
    I look more broadly - perhaps there are problems in the approach to testing.

    The prototype ceases to be experienced after state tests

    Again, you "hide" fundamentally different concepts behind 1 word.
    State tests of the ship.
    And the state. testing a separate system.
    Can't you see the difference?

    And you can't test a shipborne radar without a ship.

    Possible and necessary.

    In the USA, for example, there are SEVERAL specialized training grounds, in particular the Combat Systems Engineering Development Site (CSEDS).

    Below is SPY-6 mounting for testing.


    And below it, but already on another training ground in Hawaii. Attention ... at the ROCKET Range.




    Therefore, normal people, the entire series of tests in PM at maximum ranges are carried out at such test sites.

    And when the complex is installed on a ship, the volume of tests on it is drastically reduced.
    If, say, during tests at proving grounds, missiles confidently hit targets 30 times at different distances and heights.

    It is enough to shoot from the ship 1 time at any range and height - here the very fact of the operability of a particular ship is checked. And not the parameters of the complex.
    The parameters of the complex have already been verified by a series of tests at the test site.

    But this automatically deprives both Maseem topics of one of the main reasons why the golden rocket fired 25 km.
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      1. Alexander Vorontsov
        Alexander Vorontsov 26 December 2020 16: 02
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        For RLC, this is technically impossible.

        We too. But at these sites, preliminary tests of individual systems are being carried out.

        Is it impossible or is it being carried out?

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Just for illustration - how are you going to check the electromagnetic compatibility of ship systems at the stand?

        Do not confuse warm with soft.
        You are now doing this with all your might trying to save the frankly losing arguments of your ever-banned comrade Maxim.

        Electromagnetic compatibility is a separate component of the work, which is carried out by the relevant specialists. And there is no need to try again to pass off ordinary technical issues of a specific technical direction as insurmountable difficulties.
        To begin with, nothing prevents to put on the shore
        1) The superstructure of the ship with elements of the ship's radar (photo above)
        2) Launcher (video above)

        And already in this format it is possible to experience a lot - which is what the Americans are doing at their training grounds.
        And this is not some kind of know-how, but the elementary logic of the development of any concept of "step by step", from simple to complex.
        When the work is structured and phased.
        First, achieve the result at the 1st stage, and then proceed to the 2nd.

        You, out of habit, lump everything together.
        1. timokhin-aa
          27 December 2020 13: 28
          +2
          Do not move away from the topic, everything that you write about is different stages of preliminary tests, and the ready-made and mounted product must show full compliance of its performance characteristics with the previously approved TTZ, your verbiage has no points of contact with reality.

          Electromagnetic compatibility is a separate component of the work, which is carried out by the relevant specialists. And there is no need to try again to pass off ordinary technical issues of a specific technical direction as insurmountable difficulties.


          Nobody passes it off as insurmountable difficulties, it's just that these works can be finally completed only on a finished ship.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            Alexander Vorontsov 27 December 2020 22: 16
            +2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Do not move away from the topic, everything that you write about is different stages of preliminary tests,

            You breed verbiage, constantly trying to jump from the main fundamental issue to the secondary ones.
            I will not allow you to do this and will bring you to clean water. I ask the question directly.

            Do you agree that there are a number of weapon parameters, the maximum values ​​of which should by no means be demonstrated to the general public?

            Or are you a supporter of the point of view according to which we must publicly ... when adopting each new ship, supply all intelligence in the world with reliable and complete information?

            All. Here are 2 options. Which one do you think is correct?
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  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 26 December 2020 13: 10
    +3
    In the initial message of DIMK there was also a "difficult jamming environment". But if there is ambiguity and suspicion of fraud on much simpler issues such as target flight altitude, then what about the complex ones? Which are generally impossible to discuss here for many different reasons, for example, because of a million technical details and a lack of knowledge ... The flight altitude can be measured with one figure, understandable to everyone, or determined from a photograph, but the "complex jamming situation" cannot be represented by one figure and cannot be objectively verified.
    PS: My sofa opinion - this corvette looks modern. It is sad that there are suspicions of its construction as "Potemkin villages".
    1. A_Lex
      A_Lex 26 December 2020 15: 56
      +5
      My couch opinion - this corvette looks modern


      Corvette is a product. Any product is a set of functionality. Each functionality can be assessed based on its compliance with the specified characteristics.

      Thus, you don't need to be a professor to evaluate a product.
      To evaluate a product you need:
      - to know the specified characteristics of a particular functionality. Example: Full speed (functionality) - 30 knots (maximum performance)
      - carry out tests, during which all specified characteristics must be confirmed
      - the test conditions must fully comply with the current quality standards adopted in the industry producing the product and its analogues

      Those. if you are offered a TV in a store that works, but at the same time shows not a color, but a black and white image, the possibility of interaction with the remote control is not declared and, for example, there is no USB output, such a TV cannot be described as "an actual and modern product" ...

      Thus:
      - if the product does NOT demonstrate the specified characteristics during testing
      - or if the test conditions DO NOT comply with current industry quality standards
      the product cannot be considered relevant and modern, even if it works as a whole.
      1. Falcon5555
        Falcon5555 26 December 2020 20: 12
        0
        To deal with the "complex interference environment", to set or evaluate characteristics, tests, you just need a "professor", or even a professor without quotation marks.
        1. A_Lex
          A_Lex 26 December 2020 21: 00
          +3
          just a "professor" is needed, or even a professor without quotes


          Those. You thereby assert that a "common man" is a priori incapable of understanding anything and his destiny is to receive chewed up information from "experts" who are now appointed as experts by the media. The position is understandable and traditional in the style of "a big giraffe, he knows best" and "the master will come and figure it out, and therefore there is nothing with a pork snout in a Kalashny row."
          1. Falcon5555
            Falcon5555 26 December 2020 21: 59
            0
            Professors and experts are not nominated by the media - real professors and experts. I affirm that a high professional, professorial level of knowledge in modern radar and electronic warfare is needed in order to set or evaluate characteristics, tests in this area.
            1. A_Lex
              A_Lex 26 December 2020 22: 43
              +1
              I affirm that a high professional, professorial level of knowledge is needed


              Clear. Those. you are not able to choose a TV, smartphone, jacket, meat, tomatoes, cheese, evaluate the quality of treatment, shoe repair, a dish in a restaurant, because you need a "high professional, professorial level of knowledge" in each of the industries that produce this or that product. In other words, to judge the quality of a TV or beer, you yourself must be able to produce TVs and beer on a professional level.
              1. Falcon5555
                Falcon5555 26 December 2020 23: 19
                0
                Clear. Those. the production and selection of beer, televisions and radar systems with air defense systems are, in your opinion, tasks of the same level. Then you are probably the same and even a very "simple person" from your previous post. sad
                1. A_Lex
                  A_Lex 27 December 2020 01: 14
                  +1
                  Those. production and selection of beer, TVs and radar with air defense systems are, in your opinion, tasks of the same level


                  What does "one level tasks" mean? Beer, TV, air defense system, radar - these are products, each of which has its own specifics. To evaluate the quality of the product, following your logic, you should be a professional, i.e. be able to produce a similar product yourself, in order to personally know all the subtleties and details. Presumably, since you buy meat in a store, a shirt in a supermarket, or use the services of a dentist, you yourself are at the same time a professional in all these areas, i.e. agronomist, breeder, designer, tailor and dentist, right? Otherwise, you will definitely not be able to personally assess the consumer quality of the products you purchase. Well, this is if you follow your logic of reasoning.
                  1. Falcon5555
                    Falcon5555 27 December 2020 13: 24
                    +1
                    Where did you get all this ??? Are you studying to be an "effective manager"? In some "Hello, is this a laundry? - Waste ..." laughing
                    Although, now stooltkin is in charge of aviation ... sad Before that he "distinguished himself", destroying airfields ... sad Rosatom was headed by a marine transport engineer. As a result, something exploded there in the White Sea ... sad
                    Well, if you want me to explain it to you as in kindergarten, then so. I'll taste the beer. About TV - I'll see what's on the shelves of a good store with well-known labels, i.e. what other people have already tried, and I will look on the Internet. The laws of the market work here. Others will try and the best will remain on the shelves. About Russian-made radar and air defense systems - "people" have already tried this many times with results usually in the form of complete defeat in the war. By the way, the latter happened quite recently. laughing But if you are not a politically neutral buyer, but a Russian Ministry of Defense, and you need not only to choose and buy the best of what is offered, but to formulate a technical task for a publication that the world did not know, or knew, but somewhere out there, and you don't have a clear idea of ​​how they are; conduct tests; to help the manufacturer improve his technique - and this is exactly what is needed - then yes, you should have a professorial level of knowledge, and motivation, by the way, which, like knowledge, apparently, you do not have, since you equate radar in beer. sad
  • Polente the Wanderer
    Polente the Wanderer 26 December 2020 18: 10
    +2
    Has the report been sent to the Supreme Commander? Have you asked a question at the press conference?
    Or 1905 awaits us as a result of shapkozakidatelstva or closer 41-42 years
    1. timokhin-aa
      27 December 2020 13: 24
      +2
      Has the report been sent to the Supreme Commander?


      in the SHG.

      Has the report been sent to the Supreme Commander?


      First, 1905, then, on the wave of popular anger, the buildup to the level of "February 1917", then, in the chaos that arose, a short special operation to neutralize an early warning system and a massive nuclear strike.
      By about 2027-2030, if the "partners" do not fail.
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 28 December 2020 19: 20
        -2
        the problem of 1905 was simple: Nicholas 2 refused to continue the hostilities because of "why do we need extra expenses", although the troops would have defeated the Japanese within a year, they were just pulled up ... So the likelihood that Putin will go to the same stupidity- low..about the article..About "the target, which was finished shooting and still finished shooting" I wrote in an old article .. From the current article, a good proposal for modernizing the AK-306/630, it was high time to combine the artillery installation with optical base from Gibka ... and fasten the same anti-aircraft missiles, the same Needles / Verba or on the kraynyak Attacks in anti-aircraft performance and with radio explosions .. Well, launching shells from a distance. undermining is needed ..
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 8 January 2021 12: 07
          0
          A radar on the same platform with a gun and optics is also needed.
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 12
          -1
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          to combine the art installation with the optical base from Bending ...

          fool
          this is nonsense
  • Fast_mutant
    Fast_mutant 26 December 2020 18: 19
    +4
    Quote: Angry
    A fleet without air defense!

    It's much worse! A fleet without SHIPS!
    1. A_Lex
      A_Lex 26 December 2020 18: 54
      +3
      It's much worse! A fleet without SHIPS!


      Everything is really bad! There is no adequate leadership that would act in the interests of Russia's development, i.e. society!
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 26 December 2020 20: 45
    -7
    it will be funny when the corvette hits the low-flying R-We at the exercises ... there will be excuses again ... although in the last article he bluntly stated that he wrote a lie, but it will do just fine and nothing needs to be changed ... Simply put, Klimov is ready to write a lie, if it suits him ..
    1. timokhin-aa
      27 December 2020 13: 11
      +4
      Sooner or later, he will amaze, simply because now there is no choice, this sawmill took the cost of several warships, it will now be completed.
      But, firstly, for new, additional state. money.
      Secondly, with a complete redesign and rebuilding on ready-made ships, for example, people from the Pacific Fleet have already pointed their fingers at the racks with equipment, which will simply have to be turned off and left on the ship as monuments, because cleaning them is expensive and pointless.
      Thirdly, all this will take a long time - many years.
      Fourthly, because the beneficiary and the former director of "Zaslon" Gorbunov was jacked up to this place by the Americans, then all the parameters of the system will be known to the potential enemy.

      And fifthly, right now we have cheap mass-produced radars, which already today provide those opportunities, upon reaching which the "evolution" of the "Zaslon" craft will be stopped.

      In general, everything is as you like.
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 27 December 2020 13: 48
        -6
        eh ... how many times have I already said, never write with 100% certainty that this is how it will be ... and then it will be very sad ... and it will be like an epic with the Su-27, when the plane was difficult to create, and It seems to me that then there were also "experts" who offered not to suffer garbage, but to invest in the next modernization of some moment-21 .. But I'm wrong as usual, and Topvar's experts know better .. they know better .. hi
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 10
          -1
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          It seems to me that then there were also "experts" who offered not to suffer garbage, but to invest in the next modernization of some instant-21.

          fool
          IT SEEMS TO YOU lol
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 11
      -1
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      there will be excuses again ... although in the last article he bluntly stated that he wrote a lie

      Lying here you
  • avk80
    avk80 27 December 2020 01: 07
    +2
    The video of the defeat shows that the anti-ship missile system is flying to the side. That is, either they did not shoot at the corvette, but at another target, or the registration of the hit was not from the corvette. The ZR trajectory suggests that this is the second option. This means that all this analysis with an estimate of distance and height has about zero value, since it starts from the wrong premise.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 05
      -1
      Quote: avk80
      The video of the defeat shows that the anti-ship missile system is flying to the side

      do it on purpose
      so that the shot down on board does not arrive
  • Konnick
    Konnick 27 December 2020 11: 05
    +3
    Quote: Dread
    Russian
    Constructors are stronger in this matter


    Our country is rich in talents, only there is no incentive for a designer to use his talent to the fullest. A piece of budget money will not reach him in case of proactive fulfillment of a complex task. As our designer sits on a salary, he sits, fulfills the time schedule and he, knowing the difference in the assessment of his work with the assessment, for example, of the same Rogozin, simply hammers in a bolt, and they know how to do this, especially with incompetent leadership. From yourself, sometimes you say a term to such a leader, you see emptiness in your eyes and don't speak again.
    The design bureau's system of organization was destroyed by creating a managerial superstructure that can cut the budget, all the more so the Soviet generation of engineers is leaving.
    The author correctly addresses the prosecutor's office ... only there is little hope.
  • Siegfried
    Siegfried 28 December 2020 14: 53
    +1
    maybe it's not bad that a competitor to Almaz is creeping onto the scene. Of course, you only need to allow the Barrier to do anything if they create something better than Diamond. In general, it is bad when in the military-industrial complex one monopoly of the military complex has to take what they give and pay what they say. Everywhere you need to have at least two competing manufacturers, and let's hope that the Zaslon will someday reach its standard. Now, of course, they must be sent
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 04: 00
      -1
      Quote: Siegfried
      maybe it's not bad that a competitor to Almaz is creeping onto the scene

      where did you find your "competitor"?
      although - according to the "appetite" for dough - what a "competitor" ...
  • Vlad is short
    Vlad is short 28 December 2020 17: 50
    -1
    The author's deep knowledge of issues that simply cannot be agreed is suspicious. Where did you get the texture, to the envy of the residents of the NATO special services?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 59
      0
      Quote: Vlad is short
      The author's deep knowledge of issues that simply cannot be agreed is suspicious. Where did you get the texture, to the envy of the residents of the NATO special services?

      from the official video of the RF Ministry of Defense
      complain
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 29 December 2020 10: 11
    -1
    The facts are announced, examples are given, conclusions based on this are correct. The article is correct. Only when Serdyukov was breaking up the army, they shouted about this too. Until they stop stealing!
    1. Polente the Wanderer
      Polente the Wanderer 4 January 2021 18: 15
      0
      Serdyukov was the Minister of Defense in 08-12 (Putin, Medvedev were appointed), and the Zaslon radar station began to appear at presentations only in 2015.The generals were in their places and remained in charge ...
  • Dartenvald
    Dartenvald 29 December 2020 19: 36
    +2
    I would like to draw the attention of the venerable author and readers to one moment that has escaped your attention. Several years ago, on the "Savvy" corvette, there were already successful redoubts firing at the control center from "Furke-2". "Furke-2" is installed both on "Thundering" and on 2103. And now attention is the question ... was the target at all accompanied by the x-range zasarovka or was it a skillful imitation to close the state. This assumption is confirmed by the work of 2103, according to eyewitnesses, there was an art of firing A-190 at a real RM-15, think out the result yourself, the artillery will not have enough accuracy of the control center from the detection station. And as for the alternatives to the IFRLK, I want to tell you, many have ideas and developments, but because of the lobbyists, they are not allowed in the Navy's Civil Code, even the eminent guards from the AGAT Concern. The only way to restore the work of artillery on corvettes is to return the Puma back, perhaps by modernizing it.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 3 January 2021 04: 17
    0
    the last money, which should have been spent on weapons, is spent on filling the pockets of literally a few people - with the connivance of the state.

    You don’t understand - these few people enjoy the patronage of those who are the state. Therefore, the same Serdyukov and others like him, in the worst case scenario, simply change seats.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 04: 22
      0
      Quote: 3danimal
      Therefore, the same Serdyukov and others like him, in the worst case scenario, simply change seats.

      wassat
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 3 January 2021 05: 47
      +1
      Moreover, we cannot influence this. Everything is decided for us in a narrow circle, but we are invited to trust the "immeasurable wisdom" of permanent leadership.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 8 January 2021 12: 52
    0
    Question in connection with the radar problems of the new ships:
    why not create it on the basis of the existing land-based (S-400, S-350, Buk-M3), placing it on a rotating platform and covered with a radio-transparent dome? You got an analogue of the British, quite possibly.
  • koramax81
    koramax81 9 January 2021 01: 03
    0
    I'm wondering, where did the author get the photo from the combat posts of the ship? If my memory serves me correctly, is shooting on the territory of a military facility prohibited?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 57
      0
      Quote: koramax81
      I'm wondering, where did the author get the photo from the combat posts of the ship? If my memory serves me correctly, is shooting on the territory of a military facility prohibited?

      report the opera
      let them be punished
      screenshots with video DIMK laughing
  • czes
    czes 14 January 2021 21: 46
    -1
    Ahrenet! Things are even worse than imagined. And why the heck do we have such a fleet? Give your money to aviation!