Military Review

250 days of heroic defense of Sevastopol and three days of shame on the command

273

The heroic defense of Sevastopol for 250 days, from October 30, 1941 to July 2, 1942, is well known and described in detail. At the same time, the three tragic last days of defense are bypassed, when the command cowardly fled from the besieged city and threw tens of thousands of their fighters at the mercy of the Germans.


One can only be proud of the courage of the defenders of Sevastopol, who have fulfilled their duty to the end, but what was done to them in the last days of the defense cannot have any justification. In the early 70s, I had to face a fact that shocked me. An excursion to Sevastopol was organized for us, we drove to Sapun-Gora, a group of people stood on the site, one of them with orders on his jacket, there were few of them, then the veterans wore only military orders, they did not just cry, but wept. We approached and asked what happened. They explained to us that he was the defender of Sevastopol, remembered how they were abandoned on the Chersonesos peninsula and the Germans, defenseless, simply finished off them. We were young, raised to believe in our army and could not imagine that this could happen. Years later, the real picture of those tragic days is revealed and these facts are confirmed.

Siege of Sevastopol and defense in 1941


Before the fall of Odessa, there were practically no land units in Sevastopol, the city was defended by the forces of the Black Sea Marine Corps fleet, coastal batteries and retreating units of scattered Soviet troops.

In connection with the complication of the situation on the Southern Front and the breakthrough of the Soviet defense at Perekop at the end of September, the Headquarters on September 31 decided to evacuate the Primorsky Army from Odessa to Sevastopol to strengthen the defense of the Crimea. Part of the troops of the Primorsky Army took part in the defense of Perekop along with the 51st Army, but after the breakthrough of the front by the 20th Army of Manstein on October 11, Manstein's 51th Army retreated to Sevastopol and became part of the Sevastopol defensive region, and the 16st Army was defeated and left Kerch on November 16. With the transfer of the Primorsky Army on October 50, the garrison of Sevastopol increased and numbered about 55-30 thousand people, it remained in the Crimea the only territory not occupied by the Germans, and Manstein concentrated all his efforts on taking this last line. German troops, pursuing the retreating Soviet troops, reached the distant approaches to Sevastopol and on October XNUMX they began the first assault on the city.

250 days of heroic defense of Sevastopol and three days of shame on the command

The city was turned into a fortress, from land the defense relied on a series of large artillery forts, such as "Stalin", BB-30, BB-35, in which large-caliber artillery mounts were installed, removed from active and sunken ships, concreted and connected by underground passages.

The Wehrmacht also stole here a lot of large-caliber artillery, including super-heavy 420 mm and 600 mm guns. Manstein ordered the secret delivery of a super-heavy 807-mm Dora gun from Germany, whose fire was directed against forts and underground ammunition depots with shells weighing seven tons, but the effectiveness of the gun was not as high as expected. Manstein later wrote:

"In general, in World War II, the Germans never achieved such a massive use of artillery."

During the first assault, the Wehrmacht tried to capture the city on the move, by November 10, Sevastopol was completely surrounded from land, the Germans managed to penetrate only slightly into the defense zone and by November 21 the assault was suspended.

The second assault began on December 17, but after the landing of the Soviet troops in Feodosia, the German command was forced to transfer part of the troops to the Kerch Peninsula, the assault was choked, and the offensive was stopped by December 30.

Third assault in June 1942


The third and final assault began on June 7, after Manstein defeated the Crimean Front and the remnants of the three Soviet armies in panic were evacuated from Kerch to the Taman Peninsula on May 20. This defeat allowed Manstein to gather all the forces of the 11th Army for the assault on Sevastopol.

Sevastopol had a well-fortified defense, but there was a serious flaw in it, ammunition could only be delivered by sea. Manstein decided to blockade the city from the sea, throwing an armada at it aviation - 1060 aircraft (the defenders had only 160 aircraft based mainly on the Caucasian airfields) and deployed patrol boats overland. The blockade was ensured, the Germans virtually cut all sea communications, depriving Sevastopol of the delivery of ammunition.

In May 1942, the situation in Crimea was catastrophic, the commander of the North Caucasian Front, Budyonny, on May 28, sent a directive to the leadership of the city's defense:

“I order to warn the entire commanding, commanding, Red Army and Red Navy personnel that Sevastopol must be held at any cost. There will be no crossing to the Caucasian coast ... "

The heroically fighting troops with a shortage of ammunition could not resist for a long time, since June 17, the Germans achieved a turning point, reached Sapun Mountain and captured a number of key forts, including Stalin and BB-30.

By June 23, the outer ring of defense was broken, the Germans reached the Northern Bay and blocked the supply of ammunition across the bay with artillery fire. The inner ring of defense with powerful engineering fortifications was still preserved, it was not so easy to overcome them. At 2 am on June 29, Manstein organized a daring landing of troops on the southern side of the Northern Bay, which took root there, and this fundamentally changed the course of the battle. On this day, the Germans took the village of Inkerman and Sapun-gora, installed artillery there and were able to shell the entire city, and on June 30, Malakhov Kurgan fell. The position of the defenders of Sevastopol became critical, almost all the ammunition was used up, and the blockade at sea did not allow them to be delivered.

Nevertheless, the troops fought bravely and fiercely, knowing from Budyonny's order that there would be no evacuation from Sevastopol. Many defenders later stated that it was quite possible to repel the third assault, everything depended on the support of the fleet and the delivery of ammunition.

Indeed, the Germans used their last reserves and suffered tangible losses. One of the defenders of the city later recalled, when they were driven as prisoners, that the Germans laughed: “You had to hold out for two more days. We have already been given the order: two days of assault, and then, if it does not work out, make the same siege as in Leningrad! " Manstein also wrote in his memoirs that "it was impossible not to admit that even if the enemy's reserves were mostly spent, then the striking force of the German regiments was running out ..."

The heavy defeats of the Soviet troops in the spring of 1942 near Kharkov, in the Crimea and the beginning of the German offensive in the Caucasus, Stalingrad and Voronezh demanded, in order to contain the German offensive, to defend Sevastopol to the last, besides, the Maritime Army at that time was one of the best battle-hardened units of the Red Army and it was necessary to preserve it by all means. But everything turned out differently.

Flight of command


On the evening of June 29, the commander of the defense, Admiral Oktyabrsky, moved the command post to the 35th coastal battery. By the morning of June 30, in the areas of Streletskaya, Kamyshovaya and Kazachya bays, the bulk of the troops and artillery were concentrated, already practically without ammunition. By the end of the day, at the cost of heavy losses, the enemy reached the eastern outskirts of Sevastopol and captured the main approaches to the city.

Instead of organizing the defense of the Chersonesus peninsula, where the retreating troops were flocking, Oktyabrsky at 9.00:30 on June XNUMX sent a telegram to Budyonny and the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Kuznetsov:

"The enemy broke through from the North side ... I ask you to allow me on the night of June 30 to July 1 to take out by air 200-500 people of responsible workers, commanders to the Caucasus, and also, if possible, leave Sevastopol myself, leaving General Petrov here."

Kuznetsov at 16.00 on June 30 sent a telegram:

"Evacuation of responsible employees and your departure are permitted ..."

It is difficult to understand the logic of the admiral. A sailor from the age of 16, he knew perfectly well that the captain was the last to leave the ship and, nevertheless, took such a shameful step, hiding behind the evacuation of the army commanders. Later, he justified his actions with the desire to save the fleet and command, while he lost the army and gave tens of thousands of unarmed defenders of the city to the Germans to be torn apart.

Admiral Oktyabrsky, having received Kuznetsov's telegram, convened a meeting and said that General Petrov was also evacuated, and General Novikov would lead the defense. This decision further aggravated the situation, General Petrov knew the situation better than anyone else, the army believed him: knowing that "Petrov is with us", the soldiers felt more confident.

This was followed by even more monstrous orders, all senior officers of the army and navy, up to the major, had to leave their units and concentrate in the area of ​​35 BB for evacuation. The troops were left without control and without commanders, who for nine months successfully organized the defense of the city and held back the enemy.

The flight of such a mass of commanders had a strong demoralizing effect on everyone, led to a complete collapse of the city's defense, caused panic and chaos in management. Defense participant Piskunov then said to the admiral:

“We all had a common mood that we were surrendered. We could fight and fight. Many cried out of resentment and bitterness. "

The army lost its combat effectiveness and during July 1 rolled back to the 35 BB area, and the Germans followed it to the battery itself.

The troops could still hold on, gradually withdraw and evacuate in an orderly manner. The rescue of the army required the efforts of not only Oktyabrsky, but also of the Headquarters to transfer aviation for several days to support the fleet capable of evacuating. None of this was done.

The order to General Novikov read: "To fight to the last, and whoever remains alive must break through the mountains to the partisans." The remnants of the troops were to complete the last combat mission - to cover the command evacuation area. Those left without ammunition were expected to be defeated, killed or captured.

In the area of ​​35 BB and the airfield, thousands of unorganized soldiers, sailors and civilians accumulated, and the wounded were brought here. There was noise and shouts, everyone was waiting for the evacuation. Inside, 35 BB was overflowing with army and navy commanders.

At berth 35BB, on the shores of Kazachya, Kamyshovaya and Krugla bays, everyone was waiting with hope for the "squadron" (this was the most popular word among this mass of the doomed), waiting for ships to come up and evacuate them. They could not believe that there would be no more help, it did not fit in their minds that they had been left to their own devices. Among them were also soldiers of the Primorsky Army, who were evacuated in an organized manner from Odessa in October 1941.

The evacuation of the Primorsky Army from encircled Odessa was an example of a carefully prepared and carried out operation on October 15 from 19.00 to 05.00 with practically no losses. The retreat of the army was covered by rearguard battalions, reinforced with artillery. Before the withdrawal, a blow was struck at the enemy by army artillery, armored trains and ships of the fleet with an imitation of an offensive. The troops, according to the plan, left the positions and loaded with heavy weapons on the pre-scheduled ships. After loading, the ships left the port and went to sea. The rearguard battalions departed according to the schedule to the port and were delivered to ships on longboats.

For the evacuation, a whole squadron (more than 80 ships for various purposes) was involved, the Black Sea Fleet warships and 40 fighters covered the withdrawal. During the transition, only one transport was sunk, on which 16 people died. 4 divisions were evacuated with full equipment, 38 thousand people, 570 guns, 938 vehicles, 34 tank and 22 aircraft and 20 thousand tons of ammunition.

In Sevastopol, none of this was planned, the army was thrown at the mercy of the enemy. The evacuation of the command officially began on June 30 at 21.00. The evacuation plan by aircraft, submarines and patrol boats was designed for speed of execution and secrecy, but the spontaneity of the mass of soldiers who had accumulated on the bridgehead, indignant and indignant with the flight of the command, was not taken into account.

At about one in the morning, Oktyabrsky, together with the headquarters, through the underground passage, accompanied by a group of machine gunners, went to the airfield. Lieutenant Voronov, a witness to the evacuation of Oktyabrsky, later wrote that the admiral arrived at the plane, dressed in some kind of civilian rags, "in a shabby jacket and an unprepossessing cap." After the war, Oktyabrsky made excuses that the "special officers" seemed to have thrown a civil cloak over him, since the German agents were hunting him. Such a spectacle made a depressing impression on everyone, when the plane took off, after it bursts of machine gun fire were heard, so the soldiers saw off their commander. In total, 232 people were taken out by air that night.

At about 1.30, General Petrov, the headquarters of the Primorsky Army and the highest command personnel along the 35BB underground passage went to the harbor pier, guarded by machine gunners from the multitude of unorganized military and civilians who had accumulated near the pier. In a small tug, they were transferred to two submarines in the roadstead of the pier and went to sea.

The tragedy of the last days of defense


The remnants of the troops fought on their own to contain the enemy and left the city at night, poured together with the civilians into the general stream to the bays and the Chersonesus peninsula in the hope of evacuating. By the morning of July 1, a mass of people took refuge in various places of the Chersonesus peninsula under rocks, in shelters and dugouts, since the entire peninsula was constantly under fire from enemy machine guns and artillery and was subjected to air strikes.

General Novikov's attempts to organize the defense turned out to be of little use due to the lack of communication, uncontrollability of units and groups, complete confusion and the desire of everyone to evacuate, although he had about 7-8 thousand combat personnel at his disposal. By the end of the day, the Germans approached 35BB at a distance of about a kilometer, Novikov managed to keep weapon organize a counterattack. According to the recollections of a counterattack participant, "the crowd of attackers, gray, burnt out, almost completely whitening with bandages, something roaring mass produced such a terrible impression that the German companies, which were pretty exhausted during the day, fled." During the attack, Novikov was wounded in the arm, the fighters advanced one and a half kilometers, fizzled out and returned to the shore waiting for the "squadron".


On the same night, the remnants of the border guard regiment, surrounded by Cape Fiolent, tried to break through to 35 BB, but the attack was unsuccessful and the surviving groups took refuge under the coast and fought for about twenty days.

The evacuation of about two thousand senior commanders was planned only from the roadstead berth 35BB, where a cantilever-type berth covered with logs was built with a length of about 70 meters. The commanders were on the territory of 35BB, lists were drawn up and everything was painted for specific boats that were to come to Sevastopol. By the night of July 2, the number of people in the coastal area at berth 35BB was, according to eyewitnesses, more than 10 thousand people.

Instead of the promised four minesweepers, only two and ten patrol boats arrived. The wounded General Novikov, without a tunic and shirt, and the accompanying officers went to the pier, the whole road to it was packed with people, almost everyone was lying on the pier. The escorting security officer began to say: "Let the wounded general in!" and the whole group quietly passed the pier and crossed the walkways to a large stone.

Boats began to approach the pier, the crowd rushed to the pier, swept away the submachine gunners and quickly rushed around the pier. Under her pressure, the wounded and the first rows on the pier were thrown into the water, then the section of the pier collapsed along with people. Part of the crowd rushed along the suspension bridge to the cliff where General Novikov's group was. To contain the crowd, the guards opened warning fire, and then to defeat ...

At about 01.15 am, 35BB was blown up, the explosion was not warned, and some of the officers who were on the territory of the battery died or were badly burned.

At two o'clock in the morning, the boat with Novikov went to sea, the rest of the boats went at low speed at the roadstead pier and took people from the water. Only about 600 people were taken to Novorossiysk on boats, and most of the senior officers removed from the front on June 30 for evacuation were unwittingly abandoned and most of them died or were captured.

Separate groups of fighters that night tried to escape on found fishing boats, lifeboats, on rafts from cameras covered with sides of cars and on other improvised means. Some of them managed to get to the Caucasian shores.

Not all boats reached Novorossiysk, at dawn off the coast of Yalta the boat, where Novikov was, was attacked by four enemy boats and shot at point-blank range. The survivors, including Novikov, were taken prisoner and taken to Simferopol, later he died in 1944 in a German concentration camp. On another boat, the engine stalled and he had to go to the shore in the Alushta region, where they encountered a Tatar self-defense detachment. Many died in the battle, the Tatars began to shoot the wounded, and only the intervention of the Italian soldiers who arrived in time saved them from reprisals.

By the morning of July 2, tens of thousands of heroic defenders of Sevastopol, including about 30 thousand wounded, were left without ammunition, food and fresh water on the shores of the Khersones Peninsula, Kamyshovaya and Cossack bays and in other places. The entire coast was quickly occupied by the enemy, with the exception of a strip of 500-600 meters, and then a bloody meat grinder began: the Germans mercilessly destroyed the exhausted and emaciated fighters, and took prisoners who were able to move.

In the city itself, unorganized resistance continued, but the defenders were deliberately doomed to death or captivity. The last captured defenders, accompanied by a detachment of Tatar self-defense, were driven to Bakhchisarai. At Cape Fiolent, the Tatars began to break through their heads with clubs for the weakened prisoners, an Italian unit standing nearby intervened, promising to shoot the Tatars for such a reprisal. This is about the "injustice" of the expulsion of the Tatars from the Crimea in 1944.

Their tests did not stop there, in the camps on the territory of Crimea they continued to be brutally killed, several thousand prisoners of war were loaded onto barges and set on fire in the open sea, more than 15 thousand prisoners of war were killed in total.

During the evacuation from June 30 to July 2, 1726 people were evacuated from Sevastopol by all types of vehicles (aircraft, submarines, boats). These are mainly the commanding staff, the wounded and some responsible city officials.

According to archival data, as of June 1, the total number of troops in Sevastopol was 130125 people, on June 10, 32275 people were irrecoverable and 17 wounded, evacuated before June 894, that is, 28 soldiers were thrown in Sevastopol, of which only 79 people were rescued. The Germans lost 956 thousand people during the third assault.

Thus ended the heroic defense of Sevastopol. Despite the unparalleled courage of the defenders of the city, he was surrendered, and the command did not have the willpower to stand to the end with their fighters and to press the front command and Headquarters to take measures to evacuate the dying army.
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  1. Comrade
    Comrade 3 August 2020 05: 55
    81
    On another boat, the engine stalled and he had to go to the shore in the Alushta region, where they encountered a Tatar self-defense detachment. Many died in the battle, Tatars began to shoot the wounded

    Things need to be called by their proper names.
    What kind of "self-defense" is there?
    It was just Tatar gangs, who, like jackals, came running to torment our helpless fighters.
    And it is necessary to write about the genocide of the Slavs in the Crimea, organized by the Tatars. As during the occupation of Crimea, the Tatars threw people tied with wire into the wells. When the Germans were thrown out of the Crimea, the Tatars' crimes were revealed.
    By the way, the help of the Tatar guides, who showed the Germans secret paths in the mountains, played an important role in the fall of Sevastopol.
    And now the liberals and democrats are shedding tears with crocodiles, they feel sorry for the deported Tatars.
    1. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 3 August 2020 07: 47
      -9
      Instead of organizing the defense of the Chersonesus peninsula, where the retreating troops were flocking, Oktyabrsky at 9.00:30 on June XNUMX sent a telegram to Budyonny and the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Kuznetsov:
      "The enemy broke through from the North side ... I ask you to allow me on the night of June 30 to July 1 to take out by air 200-500 people of responsible workers, commanders to the Caucasus, and also, if possible, leave Sevastopol myself, leaving General Petrov here."
      Kuznetsov at 16.00 on June 30 sent a telegram:
      "Evacuation of responsible employees and your departure are permitted ..."
      It is difficult to understand the logic of the admiral. A sailor from the age of 16, he knew perfectly well that the captain was the last to leave the ship and, nevertheless, took such a shameful step, hiding behind the evacuation of the army commanders.
      Everything is clear with the author, horses, people are mixed in a heap ...
      What does the sinking ship have to do with it?
      Yes, it is hard that it was not possible to evacuate everyone, but the command to evacuate was simply essential.
      How much does it cost to train a simple sailor and how much does it cost to train an officer ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?
      1. Octopus
        Octopus 3 August 2020 08: 07
        16
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        How much does it cost to train a simple sailor and how much does it cost to train an officer ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?

        Thoughts arose. For example, such.
        In connection with this Paulus radiogram, I would like to say the following about the evacuation of individuals. From a purely business point of view, it would naturally be desirable to save as many valuable specialists as possible, of course, regardless of their rank. And from a human point of view, it is clear that I would like and should try to save everyone. But this evacuation had to be considered from the point of view of soldier's ethics. Soldiers' ethics require that the wounded be evacuated first. Measures were taken to evacuate them, and their effect in such a difficult situation was striking. But the evacuation of specialists could be carried out only by evacuating the wounded. In addition, inevitably, the majority of the evacuated specialists would be officers, since, due to their training and experience, they are of greater value in war than ordinary soldiers (unless we are talking about specialists with a very special technical or scientific training). But in the situation in which the 6th Army was, according to the concepts of German soldier ethics, when it came to saving lives, the officers had to give way first of all to the soldiers for whom they were responsible. Therefore, the command of the army group did nothing to get Hitler to accept the proposal of the commander of the 6th army.


        But, of course, this kind of co-patronage is not applicable to Soviet people.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 3 August 2020 10: 26
          +4
          But, of course, this kind of co-patronage is not applicable to Soviet people.

          Sure. The Sevastopol escape is a common situation, just because of the evacuation by sea and the published telegrams, the system is clearly visible here.
          Stalin therefore allowed the "evacuation" of responsible comrades because he considered it natural.
          It is unnatural to die with your fighters like Kirponos.

          And the essence of the system was formed even with the Civil, we fight to the last fighter on the front line, when it’s about all, we collect the staff, the cashier, and with good security on good horses (typewriters, airplanes, boats) to the rear.
          They caught their breath, washed, cleaned themselves, reported received pills, hanged orders and re-formed for a new meat.
          The main thing is not to forget the banner of the unit.
          That is why, by the end of the war, the soldiers on their tunics had one or two medals, and the marshals had at least on their backs. These soldiers have already changed 20 times.



          In all fairness, this works in all armies, to one degree or another.
          It's just that they usually fought there not until the last soldier, but took them out early.
          The main advantage of such a system is the transfer of experience.
          And all the time here for the first time - in the first grade.
          1. VIP
            VIP 3 August 2020 11: 19
            +8
            Cruel but true
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 3 August 2020 22: 20
            +5
            It's just that they usually fought there not until the last soldier, but took them out early.

            Were they taken out to the rear or taken prisoner themselves at the head of the columns?
            Or they ran away themselves, but they forbade their subordinates to run away!
            In turn, General Bennett, returning to his headquarters, gathered all his senior commanders and informed them of the surrender. After that, he issued an order that the units should remain at their posts and assemble to surrender their weapons by 8:30 am the next day. The issue of escape was also raised, but the meeting decided that any major, disorganized escape attempt would lead to confusion and massacre. Against the background of Bennett's subsequent escape, this decision looks like an attempt to make it easier for him to save himself.
            On the evening of February 15, Bennett handed over command to Cecil Callahan, who had just returned from the hospital, the former commander of the Northern Sector artillery, making him temporary major general (this rank was officially confirmed only when Callahan resigned in 1947, but with seniority from September 1, 1942) ... Bennett himself, with several junior officers, accompanied by several local planters, quietly left his troops, reached the shore and boarded a boat. Since the rest of the escapes were prohibited by his own order, the alarm was avoided, and the Japanese did not notice the disappearance of the general.

            Surrender of Singapore
            warspot.ru
            1. Doctor
              Doctor 3 August 2020 23: 14
              -3
              Surrender of Singapore

              Anything happened everywhere. I'm talking about the very approach - to fight to the last soldier.
              Everything has been published today. Loss of units by day, if you like.

              http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/DivDocs/DivDocs.html
          3. EvilLion
            EvilLion 7 August 2020 13: 42
            +1
            I understand that history is not taught, but what is described is called "permanent mobilization". Parts are grinded, new ones are formed instead. It is a very extreme way of waging war, and the Red Army also wanted to avoid it. But when entire armies are dying in boilers, one has to recall the experience of the civilian. Ideally, units should generally be replenished at the front. Do not think that our people are stupider than others.

            And that a marshal lives longer than a private, or a lieutenant, that's why he is a marshal.
      2. Yuri Nemov
        Yuri Nemov 3 August 2020 09: 57
        +6
        No need to say! What nonsense - "The captain leaves the ship last" - invented nonsense. How much does the captain cost and how much does the sailor cost ?! It is necessary to prescribe directly in the charter, as soon as the turmoil began, then the expensive command staff should skid to the rear, and let the cheap soldier phones perish covering the retreat. The revolution in 1917 was not started for equality and brotherhood, but in order for the party nomenclature to realize its high value.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 4 August 2020 08: 53
          +1
          The revolution in 1917 was not started for equality and brotherhood, but in order for the party nomenclature to realize its high value.

          Rozhestvensky and Nebogatov committed ritual suicide?
          Who delivered the Dalny port with its warehouses and supplies?
          And then Port Arthur. General Anatoly Stoessel!
          He did not wait for the death of the "last soldier" and received a sentence of execution, replaced by 10 years of imprisonment in the fortress!
          After serving a little over a year in prison, on May 6, 1909, he was released by order of Nicholas II.
          Should I have done this in Sevastopol?
          1. Bogatyrev
            Bogatyrev 4 August 2020 22: 46
            +2
            Yes, but we still remember Baer, ​​Lebedev, Mikloukh-Maclay, Kolomeitsev, Kern, Essen, Makarov.
            And not Stoessel, Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov.
            Whose names, pardon the banality, are forever inscribed in golden letters in the history of the fleet?
            Yes, none of the mediocrities and cowards hanged themselves or shot themselves. But they died nonetheless.
            And these people - they will be remembered even through the centuries, as long as our people exist.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 5 August 2020 08: 11
              +2
              It turns out for you Nebogatov who saved hundreds of souls from senseless slaughter - the Enemy of the Russian State?
              Or he should have given the order to shoot back to the end from the superior forces of the Japanese fleet.
              To die with honor, but at the same time increasing the death toll of Russian sailors by hundreds?
              Being responsible for yourself is one thing.
              And when for hundreds and thousands - completely different ...
              1. Bogatyrev
                Bogatyrev 5 August 2020 15: 48
                +1
                Nebogatov is not a nanny, but a naval commander. And he commands not an almshouse, but warships with naval sailors.
                The infamous surrender of the squadron hit the country with the strongest recoil, the revolution broke out and the foundations were shaken.
                Therefore, Lebedev, Miklouha-Maclay, Kern were right, fighting to the last in hopeless conditions, having no thought of surrender, mercilessly substituting their teams and ships for Japanese shells. Their example of honor would have been impossible to throw into the furnace and use in propaganda of agents and enemies of Russia.
                But Nebogatov gave them a huge gift.
                And in the flame of revolutions both the fleet and millions (NOT HUNDREDS, BUT MILLIONS) of no less innocent souls burned down.
                And the naval commander, as one of the people who was entrusted with the protection of Russia, had to understand this and not hide behind a pseudo-philanthropic idea, but think about the strategic consequences of his actions for the country. He's an admiral, not a midshipman.
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 August 2020 21: 30
                  +2
                  He's an admiral, not a midshipman.

                  And he was not a bloody commissar in a leather jacket with a Mauser ...
                  Wait, admiral! The son of his time.
                  And a pupil of the environment in which Kuropatkin, Stoessel and, unfortunately, many others lived ...
                  And so they were good. They took care of the soldiers ... Unlike the "red commanders" ...
                  1. Bogatyrev
                    Bogatyrev 8 August 2020 09: 06
                    +2
                    The Lebedev, Miklukha-Maclay, Kern, Kolomeytsev, Rudnev, whom I named, are also not red commanders. And they were also brought up in the same environment.
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 9 August 2020 22: 57
                      0
                      Only they were responsible for a smaller number of their subordinates ...
                      The platoon leader and the front commander are both commanding people.
                      But the number of their subordinates is very, very different.
      3. Serg65
        Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 21
        -2
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        the command to evacuate was simply essential

        Was it evacuated?
      4. antivirus
        antivirus 3 August 2020 15: 20
        +8
        minuses are well deserved - no one really needs it ... clip thinking about "the last from the ship" won.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 4 August 2020 09: 54
          -2
          Quote: antivirus
          cons are deserved

          It may be deserved, but the truth that most of the command died for nothing or was taken prisoner really does not interest anyone! recourse
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 4 August 2020 11: 30
            0
            Sevastopol is our everything. and what happened at that moment with the Rzhev ledge? How was Voronezh kept? Blockade of Leningrad: were the dead in the winter of 41-42 counted?
            4000 km of front and one city. now he is our everything, then - one of many ", after stubborn battles left ..." without specifying the number of dead and prisoners
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 4 August 2020 12: 55
              +4
              Quote: antivirus
              Sevastopol is our everything

              The point is not even about our everything, the point is that in Sevastopol, unlike Voronezh, Rzhev and Stalingrad, on May 15-19, 1961, a Military Historical Conference was held, the official goal of which was the rehabilitation of Oktyabrsky and Kulakov in the person of the public, but something went wrong ... two colonels made their way to the podium, the former chief of staff of the 345th SD Colonel I.F. Khomich and the former chief of artillery of the 109th SD Colonel D.I. Piskunov. Both of these colonels led the defense of Chersonesos and Fiolent after the flight of Oktyabrsky, Petrov and Novikov, they more than went through the whole hell of captivity. Their performance was like a bolt from the blue! The open accusation of Oktyabrsky in the Sevastopol tragedy was not included in the plans of this conference and looked like an atomic bomb among the laudatory praises! After their speech, the conference was hastily closed. And the assignment of the title of Hero of the Soviet Union to Oktyabrsky and Kulakov 4 years later in honor of the 25th anniversary of the Victory in general caused a wave of indignation among the sailors and veterans of the Black Sea Fleet!
              Maybe I missed something, but for 4000 kilometers of the former front, I have not heard of anything like that ...
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 4 August 2020 13: 39
                0
                boilers - Minsk, Kyev, Vyazma, Izyum; Myasnoy Bor saw the graves? Race to the east in the Don bend summer 42g
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 4 August 2020 14: 19
                  0
                  Quote: antivirus
                  Have Myasnoy Bor seen the graves?

                  I saw Babi Yar filled to the brim with waste from brick factories, but I somehow did not hear speeches with direct accusations of the true culprits of the tragedies in Minsk, Kiev, Vyazma, Izum, Myasny Bor, Leningrad, Kerch. If these two idiots in admiral ranks did not want to become Heroes, then there would not be so much conversation for Sevastopol!
                  1. antivirus
                    antivirus 4 August 2020 15: 02
                    +1
                    but simply lost the Kuban airfields, Tikhoretsk and the port of Novorossiysk - the supply stopped (through Baku and Poti?)
                    and 80 tons of people were thrown
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 4 August 2020 15: 05
                      -2
                      Quote: antivirus
                      just lost the Kuban airfields, Tikhoretsk and the port of Novorossiysk - the supply stopped (through Baku and Poti?)
                      and 80 tons of people were thrown

                      Something I didn't get the sense ... slow down, I'm writing ...
                      And now Tikhoretsk confused me ...
                      1. antivirus
                        antivirus 4 August 2020 17: 44
                        0
                        several years ago - Sevastopol was abandoned, there was no opportunity to supply - Novorossiysk (Rostov \ Don-Tikhoretsk) was handed over, there was no point in carrying it through Baku

                        Admirals (in the 60s), according to this logic, are worthy of Heroes - they successfully defended Sev-l (then Novoros-k), and others surrendered the railway from the center of the country to the Ch. Sea + "ambush" in the North Caucasus
      5. snucerist
        snucerist 3 August 2020 16: 21
        -13 qualifying.
        "Yes, it is hard that it was not possible to evacuate everyone, but the command to evacuate was simply absolutely necessary."
        Who is arguing?
        This is exactly what was done. Not in Ozerov's konoopupey, but in real front-line everyday life.
        The life and health of the authorities in Russia has always been valued higher.
        Probably for this reason, in besieged Leningrad, Zhdanov and his apparatus ate somewhat different food standards. Unlike ordinary Leningraders, who received 125 grams of bread per day.
        1. Varyag_0711
          Varyag_0711 3 August 2020 16: 58
          21
          snucerist (Vladlen)
          Probably for this reason, in besieged Leningrad, Zhdanov and his apparatus ate somewhat different food standards. Unlike ordinary Leningraders, who received 125 grams of bread per day.
          You must have seen a modern cinematographer?
          Of course Zhdanov ate somewhat better than ordinary Leningraders, but how was it necessary? Let Zhdanov bend our land is rich in talents, will we find a new leader?
          Excuse me, but personally have you ever worked in managerial positions, well, at least at the level of a department head? Apparently not necessary. It is necessary to raise a good leader for a long time and persistently, which is why they are appreciated. Or do you really think that any cook would fit in Zhdanov's place?
          If you think so, then I am sincerely sorry for you ... crying
          1. snucerist
            snucerist 3 August 2020 18: 33
            0
            It was necessary.
            I have the courage to believe that the position of chief technologist at an experimental plant with a staff of 1950 is categorized above the position of head of department.
            As for the cook's skills to run the state, the revolution was carried out under this slogan, study the classics. They saw nothing reprehensible in this. IN AND. Lenin in his article "Will the Bolsheviks Retain State Power?" talked about just that.
            Comrade Stalin saw nothing reprehensible in the general replacement of old, "long and stubborn" army cadres, when, on the eve of the war, he boldly replaced the out-of-order brigade commanders and division commanders (for whatever reason - we will not specify) lower-ranking officers.
            And in our time, your reasoning raises questions.
            It is unclear, for example, who, where and when "for a long time and persistently raised" the leaders of today's Rosneft or Roscosmos? In what specialized institutes and postgraduate studies?
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 3 August 2020 19: 44
              11
              snucerist (Vladlen)
              As for the cook's skills to run the state, the revolution was carried out under this slogan, study the classics. They saw nothing reprehensible in this. IN AND. Lenin in his article "Will the Bolsheviks Retain State Power?" talked about just that.
              That's right, take and read Lenin's grandfather, and do not take his phrase out of context. There the meaning is somewhat different when fully read.
              Comrade Stalin saw nothing reprehensible in the general replacement of old, "long and stubborn" army cadres, when, on the eve of the war, he boldly replaced the out-of-order brigade commanders and division commanders (for whatever reason - we will not specify) lower-ranking officers.
              Yes, I bet for the lack of the possibility of replacing it with something more prepared. General Kopets as an example to you. They had no leadership experience, hence the fatal mistakes.
              So don’t pull the owl on the globe. There was no replacement for Zhdanov at that time, and he didn’t gobble up what you and other liberals ascribe to him. He also had diabetes, which is a tough diet. So the forest with your comments.
        2. BAI
          BAI 3 August 2020 19: 17
          19
          in besieged Leningrad, Zhdanov and his staff ate somewhat different food standards. Unlike ordinary Leningraders, who received 125 grams of bread per day.

          The 2nd secretary of the city committee (this is the second person after Zhdanov in the party hierarchy) Kuznetsov, his son was officially registered with dystrophy of the 2nd degree. The father ate in 3 throats, and not a crumb for the son?
        3. Kisa
          Kisa 4 August 2020 17: 33
          -2
          The most striking example for me was when the nomenklatura draped from Moscow on October 15-17, 41, when the real chaos began. These are their own patriots, for example, the author of the words "The Holy War" Vasily Lebedev-Kumach "brought two pickups of things to the station, could not load them for two days and became mentally mad ...
          not bad about this page of history ...
      6. Dart2027
        Dart2027 3 August 2020 19: 52
        +3
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        Yes, it is hard that it was not possible to evacuate everyone, but the command to evacuate was simply essential.
        How much does it cost to train a simple sailor and how much does it cost to train an officer ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?

        - The command is concerned that the front headquarters is very close to the front line of defense. It is necessary to bring him east, beyond Moscow, approximately to the Arzamas area. A command post to organize on the eastern outskirts of Moscow.
        There was a rather long silence.
        - Comrade Stepanov, ask at the headquarters, do they have shovels? - without raising a voice, Stalin said.
        - Now. - And again silence.
        “What shovels, Comrade Stalin?”
        “Anyway.”
        - Now ... There are shovels, Comrade Stalin.
        “Tell your comrades, let them take shovels and dig graves for themselves.” The front headquarters will remain in Perkhushkov, and I will remain in Moscow. Bye.
      7. DrEng527
        DrEng527 3 August 2020 21: 49
        +4
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        and how much does officer training cost ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?

        and who needs such officers who abandon their soldiers?
      8. Wertgan
        Wertgan 3 August 2020 22: 01
        0
        These words of yours are complete liberal nonsense. Everything is exactly the opposite. It is the commanding staff who should not think about retreating and leaving the group of troops. But alas, people just can't be remade. Everyone wants to survive. It's instinct. And with such people, with such commanders, only the methods of the legendary Genghis Khan work. If someone retreated in the unit, then ... It is further known.
      9. Umalta
        Umalta 4 August 2020 00: 40
        -2
        I completely agree with you, but I can't imagine that the general, the admiral of tsarist Russia would have done the same.
        1. Parsec
          Parsec 4 August 2020 02: 29
          +1
          Quote: Umalta
          I completely agree with you, but I can't imagine that the general, the admiral of tsarist Russia would have done the same.


          This is your weak imagination and lack of knowledge.
          Inquire about the history of the Russo-Japanese War, both on land and at sea.
          1. Umalta
            Umalta 4 August 2020 19: 00
            -1
            Stoessel got a sentence, though he was released ahead of schedule, but Oktyabrsky ?! I beg his merits, it was thanks to him that the World Cup met the war fully armed.
    2. Snail N9
      Snail N9 3 August 2020 08: 01
      14
      If you read Manstein's memoirs, then in them he writes that his last assault on Sevastopol was already running out of steam, the soldiers did not move forward, tired, suffering heavy losses, they lost faith in success and he was already preparing to give the order to withdraw and end the assault, when suddenly there was a monstrous explosion - the adits of Inkerman exploded, on which the Russian defense was based in many ways. The defenders of Sevastopol were demoralized by this explosion, while the German troops, on the contrary, perked up and increased pressure as a result of the defense of Sevastopol fell. Until now, there is no exact data what happened - why Inkerman exploded - an accident or, nevertheless, someone blew it up by order ... Well, but about the Tatars and their role in the collapse of a well-prepared partisan movement in Crimea, it is well written in "Crimean notebooks" ...
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma 3 August 2020 19: 54
        +3
        Quote: Snail N9
        why did Inkerman explode-

        Inkerman's adits - "Champagne". Many and many climbed on them, in the internet and photos and stories, just dial Champagne. And what is interesting, no one mentions the remains of people (although many media outlets claim that both the hospital and the civilian population were blown up) together with the warehouses. There is also no glass breakage from bottles. But many people mention all kinds of ammunition. Below is an excerpt from the story of one of the Champagne diggers (May 2003, Sevastopol.ws website).
        And I still can't understand: why do they write in their memoirs that, they say, the ammunition in the adits was outdated, substandard, and practically useless in defense? Therefore, they were blown up so that the enemy would not get it (who, if you develop the idea further, was very interested in the decommissioned Soviet blanks?). It's strange. It is all the more strange because the markings on most of the ammunition lying in the depths of Champagne are 1941. New. It is clear yet - not every artillery shell can be used in the existing artillery: the caliber, for example, is not the same (near Sevastopol, by the way, the defenders used guns of seventeen (!) Different calibers: from 37 to 305 mm.). But why were not thousands of cases of rifle cartridges taken out on time? For readers who are very far from the topic under discussion, I will explain: the Russian rifle cartridge cal.7,62x53R, except for the familiar "three-line", in those years was used in the "Maxim" machine gun, Degtyarev light machine gun, self-loading rifles SVT-38, SVT-40, ABC, as well as in other models of small arms, including aircraft, anti-aircraft, tank machine guns; carbines and sniper rifles. Everything was buried under the rubble: But, three days later, on Cape Khersones, the defenders of the fortress had to fight more and more with a bayonet and stones.
    3. Serg koma
      Serg koma 3 August 2020 08: 51
      -3
      Quote: Comrade
      They were just Tatar gangs, which, like jackals, came running to torment our helpless fighters.
      drinks
      This is about the "injustice" of the expulsion of the Tatars from the Crimea in 1944.

      Probably, according to the author of the article, the Ukrainians should have been evicted, at least for Khatyn. All nationalities of the Northern Caucasus, the Baltic states, Wed Asia for the national battalions, the Don and Kuban Cossacks, as well as all the Russians for the radioactive waste and those Judas who licked a German boot, mocked the prisoners, shot civilians ...
      Twice Hero of the Soviet Union Ametkhan Sultan
      Hero of the Soviet Union Uzeyir Abduramanov (the hero had no right to return and live in his homeland - in Crimea. Together with his relatives, he lived in the Narpay district of the Bukhara region in Uzbekistan. Uzeir Abduramanov died in 1992 in the city of Navoi.)
      Fetislyam (Anatoly) Abilov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner four times, as well as the Orders of Suvorov III degree, Kutuzov III degree and the Order of Lenin (twice presented with the Hero of the Soviet Union award). Awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union in 1990.
      Hero of the Soviet Union Abduraim Reshidov Awarded high government awards - two Orders of Lenin, three Orders of the Red Banner, Orders of the Red Star, Suvorov, Alexander Nevsky
      Hero of the Soviet Union Seitnafe Seitveliev
      Hero of the Soviet Union Abdul Teifuk
      Hero of the Soviet Union Seit-Ibraim (Saadul Isaevich) Musaev
      Full Cavalier of the Orders of Glory Seit-Nebi Abduramanov.
      Together with them, thousands of Crimean Tatars fought honestly and selflessly, many of whom died for our Motherland, the USSR ...

      Although I consider Stalin one of the greatest world leaders. but in this matter, it would probably be better to carry out a total sweep with the identification of true enemies, and not a total repression of the entire people. To some extent, this was caused by Stalin's "long-term plans" for the Yalta conference, but this my personal opinion.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 3 August 2020 21: 53
        -4
        Quote: Serg Koma
        cleansing with the identification of true enemies, and not total repression of the entire people.

        first time what? see mass repressions against kulaks, Cossacks, etc.
      2. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 3 August 2020 22: 11
        +5
        but in this matter, it would probably be better to carry out a total cleanup with the identification of true enemies, rather than total repression of the entire people.

        And how do you imagine, there is a war going on, even the Belarusian operation "Bagration" has not yet begun, and in Crimea it is necessary to begin long-term investigative actions concerning the complicity of the Tatars? This is unrealistic. How sad it is, but it was the entire Crimean Tatar people in Crimea who helped the occupiers during the occupation. Individual dropped points like Amet-Khan Sultan do not count. By the way, his direct relatives were in the Tatar Sonderkommando (see Sermul's memoirs "900 days in the mountains of Crimea", Simferopol, 2003). Stalin, having evicted the Tatars, saved them from the just retaliation of the former partisans. They would have forced them to walk to Turkey on foot, straight across the sea.
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 7 August 2020 20: 40
          0
          Quote: Aviator_
          And how do you imagine, there is a war going on,

          And how do you imagine the Yalta conference was organized, during the war, on the newly liberated territory?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 7 August 2020 20: 46
            0
            I can well imagine - they cleared the Crimea of ​​traitors and held a conference. It was possible to arrange processes like the Nuremberg one only after the end of the war. And then everything had to be done quickly.
      3. albert
        albert 3 August 2020 23: 54
        +4
        Quote: Serg Koma
        Twice Hero of the Soviet Union Ametkhan Sultan

        And his brother served as a policeman for the Germans. They didn’t shoot him only because of Amet Khan. But they gave him ten years.
      4. user1212
        user1212 4 August 2020 05: 09
        +5
        Quote: Serg Koma
        Fetislyam (Anatoly) Abilov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner four times, as well as the Orders of Suvorov III degree, Kutuzov III degree and the Order of Lenin (twice presented with the Hero of the Soviet Union award). Awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union in 1990.
        Hero of the Soviet Union Abduraim Reshidov Awarded high government awards - two Orders of Lenin, three Orders of the Red Banner, Orders of the Red Star, Suvorov, Alexander Nevsky
        Hero of the Soviet Union Seitnafe Seitveliev
        Hero of the Soviet Union Abdul Teifuk
        Hero of the Soviet Union Seit-Ibraim (Saadul Isaevich) Musaev
        Full Cavalier of the Orders of Glory Seit-Nebi Abduramanov.
        Together with them, thousands of Crimean Tatars fought honestly and selflessly, many of whom died for our Motherland, the USSR ...

        All this is true, but ... Firstly, in those parts, according to old customs, people lived in large families. These heroes, not all, but many, had relatives who served the Germans and participated in many crimes against our country. The families provided these relatives with asylum, hid them from the just retribution of the NKVD. Here is one family member receives a hero star, and tomorrow his mother is against the wall for harboring a Nazi criminal, so in your opinion it should be? Secondly, with the arrival of our troops, the local population, not very friendly to the former accomplices, began to simply cut them. So the so-called "forced eviction" is rather a salvation from the just retribution of "grateful fellow villagers". Yesterday one is awarded a star for liberation, and tomorrow "grateful neighbors" will slaughter his family for aiding. Better to settle them further away, less blood will be shed
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 7 August 2020 20: 38
          0
          Quote: user1212
          Better to settle them further away, less blood will be shed

          They settled it further, but not throughout the territory, but compactly. What prevented the massacre in Kyrgyzstan, for example?
          1. user1212
            user1212 12 August 2020 07: 11
            0
            Quote: Serg Koma
            What prevented a massacre in Kyrgyzstan for example?

            Local NKVD
            1. Serg koma
              Serg koma 12 August 2020 19: 13
              0
              Quote: user1212
              Local NKVD

              Yeah wassat in the Crimea, the NKVD was not like the Kyrgyz ... And there is no SMERSH at all, in comparison with the Central Asian laughing
              In January 1943, an operational-KGB group of the NKVD (then NKVD - NKGB) was created for the Crimea.

              The counterintelligence department "SMERSH" of the 4th Ukrainian Front possessed data on the deployment and activities of German and Romanian special services in the Crimea in 1941-1944, as well as lists of persons involved in their activities. Special operational groups "SMERSH", which included the most qualified personnel with experience in the liberated regions of the country, followed with forward units to the settlements where the enemy's intelligence and counterintelligence agencies were stationed.




              It is further emphasized that in the general stream of prisoners of war the villain can evade responsibility, in connection with which the author of the special message cites his signs: "Age about 40 years old, tall, thin, dark blond hair with gray hair, short cropped, eyes are light gray, nose straight "
        2. Serg koma
          Serg koma 7 August 2020 20: 50
          0
          Quote: user1212
          So the so-called "forced eviction" is rather a salvation from the just retribution of "grateful fellow villagers".

          I am not a representative of the Red Tatars, or Chechnya, Balts, etc. I am against general purges.
          "The forest is chopped - chips fly" - but this leads to the fact that a person who is undeservedly and unjustly punished (guilty without guilt) loses faith in the Law and the State, and the loss of faith leads to betrayal. This betrayal can be overt (helping the enemies), or it can be hidden, something like "quiet sabotage" and the upbringing in children not of patriotic feelings, but hatred of the State / system / another nation / other religion ... so I think on this topic.
    4. DrEng527
      DrEng527 3 August 2020 21: 47
      -7
      Quote: Comrade
      They feel sorry for the deported Tatars.

      the question arises - why were the perpetrators not punished for treason, but sent? how then and Bandera?
      maybe the anti-Russian essence of Soviet power?
  2. Far B
    Far B 3 August 2020 06: 13
    +8
    I wonder what words General Chuikov spoke with Oktyabrsky after the war? Surely they crossed
    1. VIP
      VIP 3 August 2020 11: 23
      +1
      Is Chuikov involved in the defense of Sevastopol?
      1. Seal
        Seal 3 August 2020 14: 59
        +9
        Apparently it means the mirroring of the situation. Oktyabrsky himself demanded that he be allowed to escape. And he ran away. And Chuikov's is the opposite. The higher-ranking officials demanded from him that he move his command post to the left bank. And Chuikov ignored their instructions. And he did not leave the right bank.
    2. Serg65
      Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 23
      -4
      Quote: Dalny V
      Surely they crossed

      Chuikov which side to Oktyabrsky?
    3. AAK
      AAK 3 August 2020 16: 28
      +2
      The circumstances described in this article are written in sufficient detail in the book by Vladimir Karpov "The Commander" about General of the Army I.Ye. Petrov, who led the land defense of both Odessa and Sevastopol
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 3 August 2020 06: 13
    +5
    It's hard to read about that ...

    The betrayal by the command of the heroes of the defense of Sevastopol cannot be justified by anything. Alas, it was not even punished and was hidden in every possible way after the Second World War. A terrible tragedy of abandoned people.

    It can be added that not all abandoned their soldiers: contrary to the order, several commanders stayed with them and shared their fate.
    They did not save the situation, but they retained the honor. Unlike the so-called. admiral of October.
    1. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 3 August 2020 07: 59
      0
      Olgovich (Andrey)
      They did not save the situation, but they retained the honor. Unlike the so-called. admiral of October.
      They may have retained their honor, but there is no life that would be very useful to the Motherland. What is more important in that situation, to preserve honor and die, or still survive and beat the fascists further?
      It was no longer possible to save ordinary soldiers and sailors, but it was simply necessary to save the officers.
      You need to think with your head, not oop ...!
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 3 August 2020 09: 33
        -4
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        You need to think with your head, not oop ...!


        You offer one thing, but you do ... the exact opposite. request

        1. Without preservation of honor, an army and victory are impossible.
        Therefore, such a “successful” flight of “necessary“ specialists ”from subordinates was shyly silent both in the Second World War and after.

        By the way, is Petrov's son (adjutant) also a great specialist? Petrov-papa also ran away despite Budyonny's orders. The fleeing commissars and secretaries of district committees, who inspired the soldiers to feats and threw them without warning in the middle of the night, were they also specialists?
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        What is more important in that situation, to preserve honor and die, or still survive and beat the fascists further?

        It is more important to fight in Sevasatopol, saving the Caucasus and Stalingrad. Even without this fleeing rabble, the resistance went to July 4, and in some places until July 12..
        How much longer would it take under leadership?

        2. The defense of the city collapsed precisely after the flight of the would-be leaders - read Manstein, while the October one blatantly lied about the end of the organized response, begging for permission to escape .. There were even TANKS who died after the flight.
        1. Rakovor
          Rakovor 3 August 2020 11: 00
          +6
          Damn, you should at least read this article. Even it says that on June 30, Inkerman, Sapun-Gora, Malakhov Kurgan were occupied, i.e. the defense had already collapsed, even before the command was evacuated.
          And how, interestingly, Sevastopol "saved" the Caucasus, if Manstein's army did not take part in the attack on it, it (more precisely, the command and control and individual units, mainly artillery) were going to be transferred to Leningrad. It was a siege army, and it could do little to help in a mobile war in the Caucasus.
          You should at least learn some history before scribbling comments here.))
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 3 August 2020 12: 42
            -7
            Quote: Rakovor
            Damn, you should at least read this article. Even it says that on June 30, Inkerman, Sapun-Gora, Malakhov Kurgan were occupied, i.e. the defense had already collapsed, even before the command was evacuated.

            bl.in read for yourself:
            К June 30 by the end of the day at the cost of heavy losses, the enemy entered eastern outskirts Sevastopol and captured the main approaches to the city..

            The approaches are not a city.

            About the city - read Meystein from July 1-they fired on the OUTSIDE, preparing to storm them, but the defense had already collapsed because of the "commanders" and commissars who ran away at night ..
            Quote: Rakovor
            And how, interestingly, Sevastopol "saved" the Caucasus

            Part of the 11th army was transferred to the "Yug" group and took part in the battles in the nga south.

            they will explain to you in elementary school how the release of strength in one place increases strength and resources in other places
            Quote: Rakovor
            Manstein's army was siege army,

            Steppe Crimea and Kerch. is this ... a fortress? Are these the trenches of the Crimean front?
            1. Rakovor
              Rakovor 4 August 2020 12: 39
              -1
              Are you capable of reading at all, or can you just scribble your stupid comments? It is written in black and white - Malakhov Kurgan fell on June 30. Have you ever been to Sevastopol? Malakhov Kurgan is practically the center of the city, what are the outskirts? On the outskirts, ours were just concentrated - in Kamyshi and Kazachka. This is still considered the outskirts, and then even more so.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 4 August 2020 13: 51
                -3
                Quote: Rakovor
                Are you generally able to read, or can you just scribble your stupid comments?

                Are you capable of reading at all or
                Quote: Rakovor
                only you can scribble your stupid comments?
                ?

                AGAIN for those writing nude like this (from the article):
                К 30 June by the end of the day at the cost of big losses the enemy went to the eastern outskirts Sevastopol and captured main approaches to the city ..

                dawned not?
                Meinstein,
                :Day July 1 began with massive fire pabout REGIONAL fortifications and INTERNAL support points cities.


                Got it, no?
            2. gsev
              gsev 9 August 2020 01: 05
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              The approaches are not a city.

              The defense of Sevastopol collapsed when Petrov was unable to prepare a defense in case the Germans forced the Sevastopol Bay. If this German landing could be repelled, Manstein would have to relocate his artillery to the South side to gnaw through the defense on Sapun Mountain. But in reality, the defenders of Sevostopal had to remove the infantry from Sapun Mountain and try to throw the German troops into the bay after a night of confusion under the fire of German batteries from the northern side. Do not trust the given map too much. Perhaps the Germans were advancing from Sevastopol and the Sevastopol Bay to Sapun Mountain.
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 3 August 2020 15: 24
          -1
          without preservation of honor, an army and victory are impossible.

          --WARE CONTINUED POLICY - ANY SR-WA IN DIRTY POLITICS ARE GOOD, AND ARE AWESOME ALSO USED
      2. Inorus
        Inorus 3 August 2020 10: 10
        +6
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        Olgovich (Andrey)
        They did not save the situation, but they retained the honor. Unlike the so-called. admiral of October.
        They may have retained their honor, but there is no life that would be very useful to the Motherland. What is more important in that situation, to preserve honor and die, or still survive and beat the fascists further?
        It was no longer possible to save ordinary soldiers and sailors, but it was simply necessary to save the officers.
        You need to think with your head, not oop ...!

        Your words seem to be correct, only a residue from them remains. And by the way, Army Commander Efremov, Corps Commander Petrovsky, acted completely differently than Oktyabrsky and company. Following your logic, did they think opoy too? Yes?
        1. Rakovor
          Rakovor 3 August 2020 10: 50
          +2
          No, they succumbed to feelings, although, according to their position, they should have been guided by reason. I wrote about this below. The same Petrovsky, subsequently leading the troops according to his experience and talent as a commander, could have saved many more soldiers' lives than that one, the wounded one he sent in his place.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 3 August 2020 14: 24
            +8
            Quote: Rakovor
            No, they succumbed to feelings, although, according to their position, they should have been guided by reason. I wrote about this below. The same Petrovsky, subsequently leading the troops according to his experience and talent as a commander, could have saved many more soldiers' lives than that one, the wounded one he sent in his place.

            I think some authors do not take into account the fact that on the eve of the war the fleet was withdrawn from the People's Commissariat of Defense and was an independent People's Commissariat, not subordinate to either the People's Commissar of Defense or the General Staff, which subsequently gave rise to confusion in the relations of senior military commanders in a critical situation when the Headquarters tried manage these structures. There is an obvious organizational mistake in the pre-war development of the armed forces, which later had to be corrected after the war. As for the accusations of admirals and senior naval officers that he left the sailors to fend for themselves, I note that there is no use for naval commanders in land battles, and they need to be retrained, which is why such an order could have been issued, which causes a nervous reaction in some people who do not know the intricacies of army reality. If a sailor owns small arms, and he can be taught to dig trenches in a couple of hours, then there is no use from a navigator or a ship's electrician in the field - this is obvious. After all, no one would even dream of appointing an artillery officer from a land artillery regiment as the commander of artillery systems on a ship, despite the fact that military specialties seem to be related. That is why I think that it was the use of naval commanders against the ground units of the Wehrmacht that was recognized as inappropriate, and therefore the command was given to evacuate them, because their presence would not have solved anything. Of course, they did not take into account the psychological moment of such an evacuation, as it affected the fighting troops, but at that moment, apparently, such a decision was considered correct and was carried out as best they could.
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 3 August 2020 15: 28
              -5
              Of course, they did not take into account the psychological moment of such an evacuation, as it affected the fighting troops

              - "WHEN TO COUNT WE BECAME" .... HOW AFTER THE WORLD THE WORLD STARTED TO STUDY DAYS AND NIGHTS OF VICTORIES (AND VICTORIES) HAIR STEADED IN CHOICE AT THE WINNERS. THERE IS SECRETY, YOU BETTER KNOW. THE AFTERNOON WILL NOT CHANGE THESE DECISIONS
      3. Serg65
        Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 41
        0
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        What is more important in that situation, to preserve honor and die, or still survive and beat the fascists further?

        Alexey, you are partly right, but only partly ... Oktyabrsky and Kulakov secretly, under cover of night, pulled out almost all commanders from the defenders, starting from the captain and almost all political instructors, in the morning the soldiers were surprised to learn that no one was in command. About two thousand officers and political instructors were gathered in the casemates of the 35th battery, all this mass stupidly sat in the casemates for 4 days and ate American cognac ... they were able to bring cognac into besieged Sevastopol, but somehow it did not work out with shells! Of the two thousand senior officers, only a couple of hundred considered it an honor to die with their soldiers, the rest of the expensive commanders either died in the explosion of a battery, or surrendered! Well, what is there to think about, Alexey?
        By the way, when Oktyabrsky arrived in Novorossiysk, when asked about the evacuation of Sevastopol residents, he immediately announced .... I won't let the ships be destroyed !!!
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 3 August 2020 15: 30
          -5
          I will not let you destroy ships !!!

          -I know better, in terms of the equivalent of the blood of soldiers for the sweat and blood of shipbuilders and the whole country. funny i get minuses for "7x70 000 t VI"
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 4 August 2020 09: 51
            +1
            Quote: antivirus
            he knows better

            My dear Anti-Virus, putting on one side of the scales the sweat and blood of shipbuilders and the whole country, and on the other 80 thousand lives of Soviet people and a huge amount of national property in the form of abandoned military equipment ... I don't even know which bowl will outweigh ...
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 4 August 2020 11: 36
              +1
              .I don’t even know which bowl will outweigh. --- WILL OUTLINE - THE PROSPECT TO RETURN TO SEVASTOPOL, AFTER THE VICTORY UNDER RYE AND MGOY, VORONEZH AND RADIANCE OF THE DON.
              all the blood of our country is forever on the conscience of the hands of the USSR and the command.
              there will be no other. And a victory, laurel and oak wreaths on their heads.

              every day we choose :::: to feed the children silently or with boring lectures, let them go for a walk or force them to learn their homework. long-term perspective or urgent, momentary affairs .... and a thousand more comparisons.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 4 August 2020 12: 19
                0
                Quote: antivirus
                we choose every day

                This opinion can be called highly philosophical, but it accurately defines human desire in a certain period of time!
                Quote: antivirus
                all the blood of our country is forever on the conscience of the hands of the USSR and the command.

                The slogan "At any cost !!" I still don't understand ...
                1. antivirus
                  antivirus 4 August 2020 13: 46
                  +1
                  The slogan "At any cost !!" I still don't understand ...

                  - something like this - while you, soldier, are eating American stew here in the rear, in Bryansk the Germans are "frying" your sister with five of them. all night, save her from dishonor! (at the cost of your life)
                  They always talked about the liberation of their native country through I can’t.
                  academic stars prevail here - how best to fight without dying. excluding the work of teenagers on the preparation of firewood for steam locomotives - coal is needed, it will be easier for your son to free Donbass at any cost,
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 4 August 2020 14: 05
                    0
                    Quote: antivirus
                    while you, soldier, are eating American stew here in the rear, in Bryansk the Germans are "frying" your sister with five of them. all night, save her from dishonor! (at the cost of your life)

                    what If a soldier is eating the Second Front in the rear, then who will free his sister? This time. How did it happen that the sister of this soldier in her native Bryansk ended up among the Germans? These are two. How best to fight without dying .. and here you have to think and not wave a sword! ... it's already ten!
      4. DrEng527
        DrEng527 3 August 2020 21: 56
        -1
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        You need to think with your head, not oop ...!

        are you about yourself hi
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        preserve honor and die, or still survive and beat the Nazis further?

        80t fighters - the army! abandoned and dying to no avail ... who needs such officers? will the troops believe them?
      5. Wertgan
        Wertgan 3 August 2020 22: 08
        +1
        An officer is, in fact, the same soldier for a superior officer. If an officer has lost the battle, why is such an officer needed? Hand over the lines and further?
    2. Serg koma
      Serg koma 3 August 2020 09: 10
      +3
      November 5 2016
      "The Time That Was Not"
      https://topwar.ru/102839-vremya-kotorogo-ne-bylo.html

      In "independent" Ukraine, it was customary to blame our Soviet military leadership for everything - the Supreme Command Headquarters, the commander of the IDF and Admiral F.S. Oktyabrsky. It was argued that "the soldiers were deceived", the command "fled in a cowardly and shameful manner", abandoning their units, and the warships, "rusty iron, smelled of needy goods," were sorry, leaving them to settle in the ports of the Caucasus. The virus of hatred for the Soviet past was being introduced into the public consciousness. The real culprit of the death of the Primorsky army - E. von Manstein was replaced by the imaginary one - Admiral F.S. Oktyabrsky. Such printed publications were sold even on the territory of the 35th Coastal Battery museum complex.

      Of course, from the point of view of civil morality, our command was unsuitable for us to leave our troops. But the war has its own laws, cruel, ruthless, based on military expediency, to achieve the main ultimate goal - Victory. "In war as in war." It takes 30 – 35 years to train a division commander, and a few months to train a fighter. In combat, the fighter breast closes his commander. So says the Charter (Ch. 1 Art. 1 UVS USSR Armed Forces). And in war it is normal. So it was under Suvorov, and under Kutuzov, and under Ushakov. So it was in World War II.
      1. A.TOR
        A.TOR 3 August 2020 11: 32
        +7
        Any IMORAL actions have consequences, which, in turn, have the property of accumulating in the minds of people. This happens imperceptibly, over time. Gradually, the critical mass of "unbelief" becomes an unbearable burden and people stop feeling that "this" country is the way they would like to live.
        This happened with the USSR - no one came out to defend it. Faith is gone
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 3 August 2020 12: 59
        -2
        Quote: Serg Koma
        proceeding from military expediency, to achieve the main ultimate goal - Victory. "War is like war." It takes 30–35 years to train a division commander, and a few months to train a fighter.

        At dawn on July 3, five patrol boats came to the bay to take only the operational staff of the Special Department of the NKVD of the Black Sea Fleet, the Primorsky Army and the Crimea.

        A.A. Kulakov, senior special group, battalion commissar: “A lot of swimmers began to swim up to the boat. I looked out among the approaching acquaintances of the Chekists and even shouted, for the special officers to respond.


        WHAT is this, the Chekists are ... military expediency? For ... victory?
        And the party activists who were evacuated instead of the soldiers, the executive workers of the executive committees, too .... the necessary specialists?
        1. DrEng527
          DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 01
          -1
          Quote: Olgovich
          What is it, the Chekists are ... military expediency? For ... victory?
          And the party activists who were evacuated instead of the soldiers, the executive workers of the executive committees, too .... the necessary specialists?

          this is an indicator of the essence of Soviet power and its nomenclature ... hi
      3. VIP
        VIP 3 August 2020 13: 07
        +2
        "For the training of a soldier for several months" front-line soldiers said that a company with a dozen experienced soldiers had fewer losses.
        The guys who went through the Chechen, told: the intelligence of "spirits", first of all, how many "old men"? Probably they are stupid and did not know that it takes several months to train a fighter
    3. denplot
      denplot 3 August 2020 18: 08
      +3
      The chief of staff of the coastal defense of the Black Sea Fleet, Colonel Kabalyuk Ivan Filippovich, left the group of evacuating commanders going to board the plane and returned to 35 BB. He stated that he would not go anywhere and would remain with the battery defenders. Killed. Many commanders followed his example.
  4. nikvic46
    nikvic46 3 August 2020 06: 15
    -3
    There was an evacuation from Sevastopol. I knew such people.
    1. Alexey Kurtov
      Alexey Kurtov 3 August 2020 08: 33
      +2
      evacuation from Sevastopol is well described above.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 3 August 2020 09: 33
        -6
        Quote: Alexey Kurtov
        evacuation from Sevastopol is well described above.

        Are you sure about that?
        1. VIP
          VIP 3 August 2020 13: 30
          +3
          Of course, the author invented everything and Admiral Oktyabrsky was the last to leave Sevastopol
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 3 August 2020 13: 43
            -1
            Quote: VIP
            Of course, the author invented everything and Admiral Oktyabrsky was the last to leave Sevastopol

            No, the author did not invent everything. But he could have conjectured something. No offense to the author. The topic is very painful. It is very easy for us to "make decisions" now, but what was it like for them? After all, not only Oktyabrsky is guilty of this, here the General Staff is guilty and many others. Why was Petrov able to organize the evacuation of Odessa and the same Petrov was unable to organize the evacuation of Sevastopol? It's not that simple. And, although I wrote the word - guilty, I do not accuse anyone, I have no moral right to accuse them of anything. I believe that the situation was such that it did not work otherwise. Though it is bitter to realize it.
            1. DrEng527
              DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 04
              -1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              After all, not only Oktyabrsky is to blame for this

              the admiral had a fleet, but he could not provide transportation ... Shirokorad gave good data on the removal of ammunition from the city ...
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 3 August 2020 23: 20
                -2
                Quote: DrEng527

                the admiral had a fleet, but he could not provide transportation ... Shirokorad gave good data on the removal of ammunition from the city ...

                Shirokorad, this is certainly good. But this is still a subjective opinion.
                We can accuse Oktyabrsky only of personal cowardice - he left his troops. But I think it is wrong to accuse him of not organizing the evacuation because of the lack of objective and complete information on this issue.
            2. art266
              art266 3 August 2020 22: 24
              -1
              The evacuation from Odessa did not take place under the conditions of a naval blockade of the city by the enemy and not during the assault on the city. The enemy realized that the Primorskaya army was evacuated from Odessa only after a few hours.
              In the event of an attempt to evacuate from Sevastopol in late June - early July 1942, they would have lost the entire Black Sea Fleet.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 4 August 2020 09: 29
                -2
                Quote: art266
                would also lose the entire Black Sea Fleet.

                is it better to lose an army?
                1. art266
                  art266 4 August 2020 17: 32
                  +2
                  No, it would be better to lose both the army and the navy at the same time, which would have happened in an attempt to evacuate the army in late June - early July. Read about the last trip of the leader "Tashkent" to Sevastopol.
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 5 August 2020 21: 20
                    -1
                    Quote: art266
                    Read about the last trip of the leader "Tashkent" to Sevastopol.

                    read hi saved him Pe-3
                    Quote: art266
                    No, it is better to lose both the army and the navy at the same time, which would have happened in an attempt to evacuate the army in late June - early July.

                    read how the Germans evacuated the troops at 44, and after all, they could do without a fleet - only BDB ...
      2. nikvic46
        nikvic46 3 August 2020 11: 34
        0
        Alexey, I meant the evacuation of civilians. They also took part in the defense. They dug trenches, helped to catch spies.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 46
          -1
          Quote: nikvic46
          I meant the evacuation of civilians

          Civilians were evacuated throughout the entire defense of Sevastopol, the motor ship Armenia is an example of this!
    2. Serg65
      Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 45
      -3
      Quote: nikvic46
      Evacuation from Sevastopol was

      How many were evacuated?
      Quote: nikvic46
      I knew people like that.

      And who are they?
      1. art266
        art266 3 August 2020 22: 30
        +2
        During the third assault on Sevastopol, ~ 15000 wounded and ~ 15000 evacuees were taken out by ships. Another 1313 wounded and evacuees were taken out by submarines.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 4 August 2020 08: 36
          -1
          Quote: art266
          During the third assault on Sevastopol, they were taken out by ships

          I meant the evacuation in the last days of June and the beginning of July 42nd. And so, yes, the evacuation of the wounded and civilians from Sevastopol took place throughout the defense of Sevastopol, and here I will not argue with you.
          1. art266
            art266 4 August 2020 17: 51
            +3
            It was unrealistic to evacuate someone there after the last campaign of the leader of the "Tashkent" to Sevastopol on June 26-27, 1942.
  5. BISMARCK94
    BISMARCK94 3 August 2020 06: 31
    -1
    Directly a guide "how not to carry out an evacuation." It turns out Kuznetsov allowed the evacuation of the command. And then Stalin did not ask him?
    1. Rakovor
      Rakovor 3 August 2020 07: 03
      +3
      Well, tell us, since you are so "smart", HOW should you carry out an evacuation with the enemy's complete domination in the air?
      1. BISMARCK94
        BISMARCK94 3 August 2020 07: 27
        -2
        Well, tell us, since you are so "smart", HOW should you carry out an evacuation with the enemy's complete domination in the air?

        at least to leave the commander, without whom the defense simply crumbles, isn't it obvious?
        1. Rakovor
          Rakovor 3 August 2020 08: 19
          -3
          At the time of the evacuation, the defense had ALREADY crumbled, there was agony, so the commander would not have helped.
          And in general, it is a worldwide practice to evacuate the command in critical situations, and everywhere it is considered NORMAL, and only here it is a betrayal.
          And yes, I admire in every way the actions of Generals Petrovsky and Efremov, but would they not have brought much more benefit to their country and saved more soldiers' lives if they had evacuated and led other military units? Moreover, Petrovsky is one of the few of our military leaders who defeated the Germans in the summer of 41.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 3 August 2020 14: 17
        +1
        Quote: Rakovor
        HOW should the evacuation be carried out with the enemy's complete air domination?

        Take up defensive positions in prepared positions from the headwaters of Streletskaya Balka to Marble Bay in order to cover the evacuation. Create an organized evacuation plan. All the remaining floating craft will be pulled to the Kazach area and 35 batteries. The evacuation should be carried out at night by forces of destroyers, seaplanes and transport aircraft, pulling together to cover most of the anti-aircraft artillery in the evacuation area. All would not have been able to withdraw, but most of the garrison of Sevastopol would have been saved! But the fact is that Oktyabrsky did everything to dramatize the situation and legally scramble to the Caucasus and not be punished !!!!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 3 August 2020 15: 53
          +4
          Quote: Serg65
          The evacuation should be carried out at night by forces of destroyers, seaplanes and transport aircraft, pulling together to cover most of the anti-aircraft artillery in the evacuation area.

          To do this, you need to move Sevastopol to the southern coast of the Barents Sea. In the winter.
          The main problem of Sevastopol in the summer of 1942 was that the ships could not turn around during the dark - the ships make the transition during the day. And with the disappearance of airfields on the Kerch Peninsula, the ships find themselves face to face with German aviation right up to Novoossiysk. And as practice shows, the air defense of the Black Sea Fleet ships did not even provide self-defense - they had to repel attacks by maneuver and fire. That is, no group air defense work will work - the order will disintegrate at the first raid.
          Well, the second toniky moment is the available composition of the ships. The figures of 1941 remained in 1941 - after a year of war, with the complete absence of pre-war specialized repair capacities, the Black Sea Fleet shrank to 1-2 CR, 1-2 LD, 3-5 EM and 1-2 TFR. Plus LK, which is either alive or dead - but sending it under German bombs is simply dangerous.
          Quote: Serg65
          pulling together to cover most of the anti-aircraft artillery in the evacuation area

          EMNIP, with shells at the ZA during the last assault was a full fifth point.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 07
            -2
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And as practice shows, the air defense of the Black Sea Fleet ships did not even provide self-defense

            They could not sink Tashkent into the sea ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 4 August 2020 08: 35
              +2
              Quote: DrEng527
              They could not sink Tashkent into the sea ...

              "Tashkent" arrived miraculously - by the time the "Smart" approached the ship was sinking. By the way, the "blue leader" got out the backlashes - right in the harbor of Novorossiysk.
              If it were not for the death of the "Impeccable", the "Tashkent" on that flight could have been sunk on the way to Sevastopol.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 4 August 2020 09: 31
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                By the way, the "blue leader" still got the backlashes - right in the harbor of Novorossiysk

                a good argument that even the air defense of the bases was not provided ...
          2. Serg65
            Serg65 4 August 2020 09: 46
            -1
            hi Hello Alexey!
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The main problem of Sevastopol in the summer of 1942 was that the ships could not turn around during the dark - the ships make the transition during the day.

            Of course, I am not Admiral Oktyabrsky or Vladimirsky, but I think that with proper planning, the evacuation could be done by destroyers ...
            We have two sevens and two sevens U. Exit from Tuapse at 12.00. Heading 260 degrees to traverse Zonguldak, speed 34-35 knots, arrival at the holding point at 20.00. We change course to North West 50 degrees and go to the Fiolent traverse at 23.00, we have 5 hours of dark time in reserve. Small craft, grouped in the Cossacks and at 35 BB, immediately begin to land the evacuees and unload the ammunition and food at the same time (left-right side) ... for everything about all 3 hours. at 03.00-03.30 Ships must return course.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The Black Sea Fleet shrank to 1-2 CR, 1-2 LD, 3-5 EM and 1-2 TFR.

            There were 5 destroyers .. four of the above + Nezamozhnik.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            with shells, during the last assault, the ZA had a full fifth point.

            Therefore, the destroyers will have to go to Sevastopol with ammunition, but in such a quantity that they would be able to keep the course of 32-35 knots.
            Well, somewhere like that! I had this idea back in 90, after conversations with the former navigator of the tug, nee SP-10, and now OT-463. According to him, in June at the raids of Sevastopol, the mess was incredible! At the end of June, a bunch of remaining watercraft were collected in Kamyshovaya, and on June 30 they almost half-empty left Sevastopol, of course not all reached, but they did. SP-10 was one of the last to leave Sevastopol, having on board, apart from their families, the families of port workers and workers of the Sevmorzavod.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 4 August 2020 15: 34
              +2
              Quote: Serg65
              Of course, I am not Admiral Oktyabrsky or Vladimirsky, but I think that with proper planning, the evacuation could be done by destroyers ...
              We have two sevens and two sevens U. Exit from Tuapse at 12.00. Heading 260 degrees to traverse Zonguldak, speed 34-35 knots, arrival at the holding point at 20.00. We change course to North West 50 degrees and go to the Fiolent traverse at 23.00, we have 5 hours of dark time in reserve.

              Pomnitz, in the memoirs of Petrov, who at that time was the navigator of the OLS of the Black Sea Fleet, described a safe route with a departure almost to the Turkish coast. But he went to the CD.
              As for pr. 7, the question arises about the range.
              ... the cruising range was much worse. In 1943, it was 722-770 miles at full speed and 1670 miles for "Thundering", "Loud" and "Grozny", for "Reasonable" and "Enraged" - 740 and 1750 miles, for "Bodroi" - 730 and 1300 miles, Boykoy has 625 and 1350 miles, Merciless has 770 and 1696 miles, Ryaniy has 959 and 2565 miles.
              © S.L. Balakin
              At 7U everything was even worse: there are more boilers, but the fuel supply is the same.
              So, in 1943, "Savvy" and "Capable" could travel only 1380 miles in economic progress, while the design assignment for the "sevens" determined a range of 3000 miles - more than twice that.

              Quote: Serg65
              Small craft, grouped in the Cossacks and at 35 BB, immediately begin to land the evacuees and unload ammunition and food at the same time (left-right side) ... for all about all 3 hours.

              It will be necessary to look at the "Gangut" - there were norms for the speed of boarding people and loading equipment on board (in the conditions of an equipped port). For some reason, I got a memory that 1 soldier took from 30 seconds to a minute.
              Quote: Serg65
              There were 5 destroyers .. four of the above + Nezamozhnik.

              Taking into account the fate of "Frunze", "Nezamozhnik" is a self-propelled maneuvering target for backlash.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 6 August 2020 07: 59
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                As for pr. 7, the question arises about the range.

                Well, here you can debate ... and dream up smile wink
                Hook Tuapse-Zonguldak-Chersonesos +/- 380 miles .... well, to be on the safe side, we schedule an exit from Tuapse at 08.00-08.30. After 11 hours, with a 20-knot stroke, we arrive at the turning point and throw 108 miles with a 35-knot stroke.
                Alexey, there were many options, only these options did not interest Oktyabrsky, with great relief he threw off the burden from his shoulders in the form of Sevastopol.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                It will be necessary to look at the "Gangut" - there were norms for the speed of boarding people and loading equipment on board (in the conditions of an equipped port). For some reason, I got a memory that 1 soldier took from 30 seconds to a minute.

                The height of the side in the stern of the destroyers and the height of the side for example of the same SP-10 are practically the same ... throw the gangway and run march. Boats, longboats ... and there is room for rationalization ideas ... the same wide gangway in several rows, for example ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                "Nezamozhnik" is a self-propelled maneuvering target for backlash.

                Well, I did not take it into account, although I forgot about Kharkov.
      3. DrEng527
        DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 05
        -1
        Quote: Rakovor
        with the complete dominance of the enemy in the air?

        at night .... or see how the Germans did it in 1944
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 3 August 2020 07: 26
      0
      When Stalin was informed that both Oktyabrsky and Petrov had been evacuated, according to eyewitnesses, he grimaced and muttered:
      ... one had to be left ...
  6. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 3 August 2020 06: 43
    +9
    It's scary to read this ... ((
    I can imagine what the people who were abandoned to their fate felt
    1. saigon
      saigon 3 August 2020 07: 04
      +7
      Find an exchange of telegrams on the evacuation of command personnel from Sevastopol. not only will you become scary, you will become creepy!
      As our admirals directly demanded to save them from Sevastopol.
      Stalin was forced to give permission to evacuate 100-150 people, in fact the drap was massive.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 3 August 2020 07: 07
        +4
        Quote: saigon
        not only will you become scary, you will become creepy!

        But where is it worse ...
      2. Igoresha
        Igoresha 3 August 2020 15: 30
        0
        in fact, the drape was massive.
        Lopukhtin / Zamulin about the Kursk battle: German documents - 50 people were taken prisoner, defectors -130
    2. Serg koma
      Serg koma 3 August 2020 09: 17
      +5
      Quote: Lipchanin
      It's scary to read this ... ((

      As a child I read "They conquered death" [Collection of memoirs of former prisoners of the fascist women's concentration camp Ravensbrück] (three editions, last 1966, but it should be published now instead of "madhouse2") - a lot of prisoners were captured in Sevastopol - I will remember for a lifetime ....
    3. VIP
      VIP 3 August 2020 13: 12
      +2
      Those who are older should remember how the front-line soldiers, after a "glass of tea", said that the hair stood on end
  7. The comment was deleted.
    1. Serg koma
      Serg koma 3 August 2020 09: 29
      +5
      Quote: 30 vis
      no evacuation attempts ...

      There was no evacuation plan as such. surrender was not supposed Sevastopol
      Directive of the Military Council of the North Caucasian Front from 28 May 1942 № 00201 / op was categorically said: “1. Warn the entire command, Red Army and Red Navy personnel that Sevastopol must be held at any cost. There will be no crossing to the Caucasian coast ... 3. In the fight against alarmists and cowards, do not stop before the most decisive measures. "

      12 June the command of the SOR received a welcoming telegram from the Supreme Commander-in-Chief I.V. Stalin: “... The selfless struggle of the Sevastopol people serves as an example of heroism for the entire Red Army and the Soviet people. I am confident that the glorious defenders of Sevastopol will fulfill their duty to the Motherland with honor ”.

      The signalmen of the 35th BB received Budyonny's directive at 22:30. 30 June... "1. By order of the Headquarters to Oktyabrsky, Kulakov urgently leave for Novorossiysk to organize the removal of the wounded, troops, valuables from Sevastopol. 2. Major General Petrov remains the commander of the SOR. To help him, assign the commander of the landing base as an assistant with the naval headquarters. 3. Major General Petrov immediately develop a plan for the sequential withdrawal to the loading sites of the wounded and the units allocated for the transfer in the first place. The remnants of the troops to conduct a stubborn defense, on which the success of the export depends. 4. Everything that cannot be exported is subject to unconditional destruction. 5. The SOR Air Force operates to the limit of its ability, after which it flies over to the Caucasian airfields "

      Exactly the same catastrophe - Minsk, Kiev, etc., who could have predicted ahead of time and prepared a plan for the evacuation of these cities in 1941? How many boilers were there in 1941-42, where the situation for the evacuation / breakthrough of the encirclement / was more favorable (in relation to Sevastopol) and was not produced?
      1. VIP
        VIP 3 August 2020 13: 23
        +5
        Evacuation of Hanko and evacuation of Odessa - an example of how to PLAN an evacuation
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 3 August 2020 16: 25
          +3
          Quote: VIP
          Evacuation of Hanko and evacuation of Odessa - an example of how to PLAN an evacuation

          The evacuation of Odessa was provided by six dozen aircraft. After the loss of the Kerch Peninsula, Sevastopol did not have such luxury on the evacuation route.
          And about Hanko ... it was an autumn night. And then the losses were significant, and the mess too - one VT-521 tragedy is worth it.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 09
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            provided six dozen aircraft. After the loss of the Kerch Peninsula, Sevastopol did not have such luxury on the evacuation route.

            there was an opportunity to strike at enemy airfields, etc.
            people just merged in here ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 4 August 2020 08: 37
              +1
              Quote: DrEng527
              there was an opportunity to strike at enemy airfields, etc.

              Is it possible to cover the bombers with fighters in these attacks? If not, then there will be another "massacre over Heligoland".
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 4 August 2020 09: 33
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Is it possible to cover bombers in these attacks with fighters?

                here the Germans arranged a wake-up call in Novorossiysk, but ours cannot a priori ... request
                Who is to blame that there was no Pe-3? Why didn't they say in the winter of 42 that it was impossible to hold Sevastopol without the Pe-3?
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 4 August 2020 09: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  here the Germans arranged a wake-up call in Novorossiysk, but ours cannot a priori ...

                  No, they cannot. Because the Germans, for example, do not need to look for targets - they have been bombing Novorossiysk since August 30, 1941. And during this time the port did not change its location. smile
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  Who is to blame that there was no Pe-3?

                  In July 1942, Bf-109s flew to Novorossiysk. Are you seriously looking to send a twin-engined pseudo-fighter into range of single-engined vehicles?
                  To ensure air superiority on the Sevastopol route, airfields in the Crimea are needed. Otherwise, our fighters simply will not reach.
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 5 August 2020 21: 18
                    -1
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And during this time the port did not change its location.

                    be surprised, but all the airfields in Crimea are Soviet - the coordinates are known ... hi

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    In July 1942, Bf-109s flew to Novorossiysk. IN

                    wasn’t there a Red Army Air Force near Novorossiysk?
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    You seriously want to send a twin-engined pseudo-fighter

                    even in July there is a night, during this time high-speed transports go 100 or more miles from the coast towards Turkey, and there the Pe-3 will come in handy against the Ju-87 \ 88 ...
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 3 August 2020 14: 19
        -1
        Quote: Serg Koma
        Exactly the same disaster - Minsk, Kiev, etc.

        Sevastopol could have held out for a long time if not for the actions of Oktyabrsky !!!
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 3 August 2020 09: 51
      -2
      Quote: 30 vis
      Therefore, the Headquarters was no longer up to the evacuation of the troops of the Sevastopol garrison. Everything was falling.

      There was little required from the Headquarters - not to allow the evacuation of commanders, which turned into their general flight, and this would be very useful for the Stalingrad you mentioned, etc.

      And yes, the evacuation of Odessa took place no less terrible days of the rapid advance of the Wehrmacht directly to Moscow.
      1. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 3 August 2020 22: 56
        +2
        In Sevastopol, the 30th armored turret battery fell ... The ammunition ran out .. It was the German Dora who was shooting at it, they shot it with 600 mm Karla ... And after the fall of the Zo-th battery, Sevastopol appeared, in front of the Germans, at a glance ... This is the topographic feature of the city's terrain. From the northern side of the city, it was possible to shoot at close range the positions of the Soviet troops ... Lack of ammunition and heavy artillery by the Germans caused the tragic events in Sevastopol in June-July 1942 ... I would not like to be in Sevastopol at this time ... 40 degrees in the shade. No water . There was no ammunition and no clear command of the troops ... And the people marched in chains in a bayonet attack on the German cannons, machine guns .. We walked without ammunition. We went into immortality ...
        http://sevdig.sevastopol.ws/stat/dora1.html " В этом же ряду и история упоминаемых Э.Манштейном двух мортир калибра 600 мм, имевших кодовоеназвание «Карл». Позиции этих сверхмощных орудий защищались особо — их окружали 5 специальных зенитных батарей, их безопасность берегла специальная авиация. Речь идет об артиллерийском оружии самого крупного из всех когда-либо применявшихся в боевых действиях калибра .Проанализировав систему советской обороны после первой неудачи в декабре 1941 года, немцы пришли к выводу, что взломать ее можно только авиацией и значительным перевесом в артиллерии. В конце подготовки к новому наступлению в начале лета 1942 года, по данным Э.Манштейна, на 35 километрах фронта у наступающих немцев было сосредоточено 1300 стволов, собранных в 208 батарей, то есть по 6 батарей на километр, что
        significantly exceeded the capabilities of the Soviet troops defending in Sevastopol. The Soviet command simply missed the appearance of "Karlov" near Sevastopol, although in the process of defense, their shells were immediately classified by the artillerymen precisely as mortars,
        and "Dora" missed at all. According to some reports,
        the command of the Sevastopol defense region, as well as
        Moscow, at first did not believe in the existence of the Germans at all
        near Sevastopol guns of this class, although the commander of the 30th
        battery repeatedly hit by direct
        "Karla", G. Alexander reported that they were firing at him
        unprecedented weapon. Only special photography of an unexploded shell with a person standing nearby (on
        on the back they made the inscription: “The height of a person is 180 cm,
        240 cm ") convinced the red commanders of the existence
        weapons-monsters, after which they reported this to the headquarters. "Yes, in Sevastopol there is a museum" 35th armored turret battery ".https: //vkrym.su/page/26 .. Everyone who has been there leaves shocked by the courage of Soviet sailors and soldier ...
    3. Petrik66
      Petrik66 3 August 2020 11: 30
      +1
      Only prisoners of the Red Army lost more than 200 thousand people in this area [6]? Where does this information come from?
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 4 August 2020 18: 57
        +1
        Quote: Petrik66
        Only prisoners of the Red Army lost more than 200 thousand people in this area [6]? Where does this information come from?

        This was already invented during the restructuring. Manstein wrote about 40 thousand prisoners, which included civilians.
        1. Petrik66
          Petrik66 4 August 2020 19: 20
          +1
          Yep, this once again confirms the "historicity" of the article ..
    4. VIP
      VIP 3 August 2020 13: 17
      +4
      In Sevastopol, EVERY battery was heroic
  8. svp67
    svp67 3 August 2020 07: 43
    10
    but what was done to them in the last days of the defense cannot have any justification.
    This is the view of a civilian with his logic of life. Alas, there is a different logic in war. And what, someone suggested that our entire command surrender, and we would have lost people who, even though they already understood in this war, and even had knowledge of a bunch of military secrets? Yes, it is a tragedy, the loss of so many troops, but a war has its own laws and its own ethics. The Germans, already in the battle of Stalingrad, realizing that it was impossible to save the troops, began to take the officers and valuable specialists out of the boiler. War has its own laws. Unfortunately.
    And for the tragedy of the last days and hours of the defense of Sevastopol, our ancestors more than repaid during the liberation of Sevastopol ... And now the coast and coastal waves were strewn with the corpses of Germans and Romanians ... in many
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 3 August 2020 08: 16
      +4
      Quote: svp67
      The Germans, already in the battle of Stalingrad, realizing that it was impossible to save the troops, began to take the officers and valuable specialists out of the boiler

      The Germans, on the contrary, refused to do this (there was a proposal from Paulus, neither Manstein nor Hitler supported him). They refused for ethical (what a word!) Considerations.

      But the wounded Germans took out 34 thousand people. By airplanes.

      Actually, the cases of Oktyabrsky and MacArthur on the one hand, and the case of 6A on the other, add color to the picture of that war.
      1. Rakovor
        Rakovor 3 August 2020 08: 56
        +7
        And after that, the transport aviation of the Luftwaffe ceased to exist. And yes, they flew there NOT for the wounded, they delivered supplies there, and the wounded were taken on the way back, not to fly "empty". Well, they had such an opportunity, but we did not have it near Sevastopol. But those ships that broke through also left for Novorossiysk, chock-full of wounded and civilians.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 3 August 2020 11: 13
          -1
          Quote: Rakovor
          Well, they had such an opportunity, but we did not have it near Sevastopol.

          Some opportunities were found
          The evacuation of the high command began with the help of aviation. 13 PS-84 aircraft took 222 chiefs and 49 wounded to the Caucasus. About 700 command personnel were taken out by submarines. Several thousand more were able to leave on light craft of the Black Sea Fleet
          (Vika)
          1. Rakovor
            Rakovor 3 August 2020 11: 15
            +4
            That's exactly "some". They took out as much as they could.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 3 August 2020 11: 17
              0
              So I don't argue. How many we could, who we could.
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 3 August 2020 11: 18
              +3
              The funny thing is that in 1944, in a mirror-like situation, the Germans did not count Soviet aircraft. They simply undertook a large-scale evacuation, which ended in partial success.
              "As much as they could and took out" Ok 50 thousand (from memory Isaev)
              1. Rakovor
                Rakovor 3 August 2020 11: 32
                0
                There is no need to compare the German aviation in the spring of 1942 and ours in the spring of 1944. The comparison is not in our favor. The Germans in Sevastopol had the corps of von Richthofen, a specialist in ships, who arranged for the British to "laugh" in Crete. If we had arranged a large-scale evacuation, then the Black Sea Fleet with a probability of 99% would be there, near Sevastopol, and remained without any results. And I think the Headquarters understood this perfectly well.
                Our pilots did not have any serious experience in "work" on naval targets (for objective reasons, and the Germans probably also guessed about this), so the German evacuation ended in "partial success."
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 3 August 2020 11: 54
                  -1
                  The pilots of the 10th Air Corps were the ship specialists.
                  Richtofen's guys did nothing outstanding against the ships. And in the Cretan operation too. Although they are definitely good. Plus Isaev writes about the problems with logistics at the end of the Sevastopol siege - the lack of bombs first of all.
                  PS "partial success" was due to mistakes in planning - ships were often sent to one point, and the troops were concentrated in others. If it weren't for this, the success would not have been partial)))
                  1. Rakovor
                    Rakovor 3 August 2020 12: 07
                    +2
                    Well, the shortage of bombs - we now know this, ours then could not know it.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 3 August 2020 12: 10
                      -1
                      You rush between the theses "would have drowned everyone anyway" and "limited information led to mistakes in decision-making"
                2. WapentakeLokki
                  WapentakeLokki 3 August 2020 19: 56
                  -5
                  ..and where was the heroic Red Banner Black Sea Fleet at that moment ??? .. defended in the bases .. and the submarines and the TKA fought .. and they drowned a lot of Deutsche ... and our aviation in the 3rd year of the Great Patriotic War, something like that ( .. well, yes, but for `` objective reasons '' ..) she is lumpy ??? .. after all, Minakov was on the Black Sea Fleet (and Polbin was on .. the edge ... well, like a master dive bomber ..) .. well she could have covered the fleet at the transition to Sevastopol from backlashes ??? .. (.. and after all, we, well, like we won air supremacy over the Kuban in the spring of 1943 .. or not ???) shtob LK Sevastopol additional from to Cape Chersonesos and races - .. Achil for the first and last time in the history of both the RIF and the Navy of the Red Army .. all that floating .. fleet .. that the Deutsches collected for the evacuation of their infantry from the Crimea ... but no .. (..and then only one thing comes to mind .. our heroic Red Banner Black Sea Fleet so .. endured from our daughters in 41-42 years .. that even to 44 glorious Chernomorets .. it was really ... and both at 42 they could not take out the brothers .. (albeit having lost 90% ... but there was some sense from him for the whole war ...) and at 44 .. no .. oh could not .. in one word .. well, just glory to the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet ... urya !!!
                  1. Rakovor
                    Rakovor 4 August 2020 06: 10
                    -1
                    Go sleep it off, uncle.
              2. Octopus
                Octopus 3 August 2020 11: 54
                -1
                Quote: Engineer
                "As much as they could and took out"

                There, Adolf had already begun to freak out. Not a step back, that's all.
                Quote: Engineer
                Approx 50 thousand

                There left about 50 thousand were taken out three times more. On the last night, May 12, they took out about 12 thousand people.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 3 August 2020 11: 57
                  +1
                  Without Isaev at hand I cannot clarify.
                  There, Adolf has already begun to freak out

                  This is a standard refrain. In fact, the Germans began the evacuation noticeably earlier than the moment the Red Army approached Sevastopol. That awkward moment when the demoniac is more sane than our command.
                  1. Rakovor
                    Rakovor 3 August 2020 12: 11
                    +8
                    But this is true. It was necessary to think about the evacuation of Sevastopol immediately after the fall of Kerch, for it was clear that there would be no way to keep it (especially taking into account the events that were brewing on the entire southern flank). But this was not done, probably because of some sacred significance of this city for us, although in the case of Odessa everything was done clearly and correctly.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 3 August 2020 12: 15
                      +1
                      I am glad that there are points of contact in the discussion.
                      Crimea in general and Sevastopol in particular is a colossal cemetery of the Russian people.
                      Perhaps this is where the sacred comes from. Direct act of necromancy of some kind.
                      1. Xnumx vis
                        Xnumx vis 3 August 2020 12: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Crimea in general and Sevastopol in particular is a colossal cemetery of the Russian people.
                        Perhaps this is where the sacred comes from. Direct act of necromancy of some kind

                        And how many Turks, British, Italians, French, Germans, Romanians, and you can count the Taurs, Scythians, Alans, Goths, Greeks, died near Sevastopol and in Sevastopol. a stream ... I don't know about necromancy ... But the attractive magic of this place exists .. This magic is called strategically important ... Otherwise, they would not have fought like that for this city.
                    2. Serg65
                      Serg65 3 August 2020 14: 26
                      -2
                      Quote: Rakovor
                      It was necessary to think about the evacuation of Sevastopol immediately after the fall of Kerch, for it was clear that there would be no way to keep it

                      Why did you decide that? By the way, it was precisely such a paralytic mood that seized almost the entire senior command staff of the ROV in May-June of the 42nd!
                  2. Octopus
                    Octopus 3 August 2020 19: 34
                    0
                    Quote: Engineer
                    This is a standard refrain. In fact, the Germans began evacuating much earlier than the moment

                    Jenske started. Hitler removed it on April 28 for defeatism.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 3 August 2020 20: 01
                      0
                      Germans acted like a textbook for crisis management
                      1. There must be a plan. Before the crisis
                      2. There must be a team. Before the crisis
                      The evacuation plan began to be developed from the end of 1943.
                      By the time of the evacuation, they had assembled a lot of watercraft, deployed additional airfields in advance, and established interaction. In January, 35 thousand tons of cargo were delivered, in February - more than 50 thousand
                      Yes, after May 12, the evacuation was practically disrupted, but they did what they could
                      Evil takes over our samotopes. Well, they themselves would have died, but they, like that substance, refused to sink. Their subordinates perished. Already you begin to remember Vitgeft with a kind word.
                      Conventional Filka Vayen as admiral is an unattainable dream for us.
                      Ps Eneke filmed on May XNUMXst
                2. Kronos
                  Kronos 3 August 2020 12: 51
                  +1
                  According to the recollections of the Germans themselves, much more were captured.
      2. smaug78
        smaug78 3 August 2020 12: 05
        +3
        The Germans took out military experts and officers, for example, General Hube - on direct orders from Hitler ...
      3. svp67
        svp67 3 August 2020 16: 22
        0
        Quote: Octopus
        The Germans, on the contrary, refused to do it.

        They refused ... And on what and from what platform could they have done it then? Yes, nothing and not with any ... And if there was an opportunity, they would have taken out. And so they all believed to the last that Manstein would save them
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 3 August 2020 19: 38
          +1
          Did you read Manstein's text above well?

          The Germans did not take out the officers. They took out the wounded two divisions.
          1. svp67
            svp67 3 August 2020 19: 52
            +2
            Quote: Octopus
            Did you read Manstein's text above well?

            And when did Manstein appear there? And he was personally involved in establishing an aviation bridge? You can write one more "lost victory" on his account
      4. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 3 August 2020 16: 29
        +2
        Quote: Octopus
        The Germans, on the contrary, refused to do this (there was a proposal from Paulus, neither Manstein nor Hitler supported him). They refused for ethical (what a word!) Considerations.

        Not all. The same Hans-Valentine Hube completely flew out of the boiler.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 3 August 2020 19: 40
          -2
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The same Hans-Valentine Hube completely flew out of the boiler.

          Are you really not picking on rule and exceptions?

          By the way, Hube flew away from the second order (he refused from the first, before that he flew from the encirclement to the headquarters and returned back), and then a little under escort.
          1. Liam
            Liam 3 August 2020 19: 50
            +1
            If I am not mistaken, I read at Beevor's, for sure they took out the tankers
    2. saigon
      saigon 3 August 2020 12: 01
      +5
      Sergei, forgive me, because our admirals and generals didn't have pistols and revolvers? Why lead the troops into captivity until the last opportunity, and then as General Efremov.
      About Stalingrad such an example of General Hube, Hitler appointed the commander of the corps, but Hube in the cauldron and refused to abandon the troops. Hitler's personal bodyguards tricked him out of the cauldron.
      Why didn't the ships go to Sevastopol? One of the reasons for mines and our mines! But against whom? Stalin never gave orders to leave the encirclement, always a breakthrough with a fight and the destruction of the enemy. Read Baghramyan about leaving the Kiev boiler well, a lot of interesting things. How the headquarters abandoned the management, how they tried to get out of the encirclement without leadership by breaking the connection.
      When command and control of the troops did not stop, the Germans could not give a damn. An example of the 5th army that cut the Army Group Center and South, competent leadership and the Hans were bogged down for a long time.
      In my soldier's opinion, when the commander is near and calm, then any situation is not scary.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 3 August 2020 14: 55
        -1
        Quote: saigon
        Why didn't the ships go to Sevastopol?

        Oktyabrsky banned!
        Quote: saigon
        One of the reasons for mines and our mines!

        With the normal organization of the designation of passages and the escorting of convoys, mines are not an obstacle and even their own.
        Quote: saigon
        But against whom?

        Not against anyone, but by order of the General Staff!
        Quote: saigon
        When command and control of the troops did not stop, the Germans could not give a damn.

        I totally agree with you!
      2. svp67
        svp67 3 August 2020 16: 35
        +3
        Quote: saigon
        Sergei, forgive me, because our admirals and generals did not have pistols and revolvers?

        Those who could be captured were shooting everywhere there. There are many such moments in the memories of our soldiers.
        Quote: saigon
        Why lead the troops into captivity to the last opportunity, and then as General Efremov.

        You know, I wouldn’t say half a word to Efremov now if he flew out of the boiler then. He was a very intelligent general and could have brought many, very many benefits to our country on the battlefield.
        Quote: saigon
        but Hube was in the cauldron and refused to abandon the troops. Hitler's personal bodyguards tricked him out of the cauldron.

        What a nightmare, but he resisted, rested with his feet and hands ... Paulus was not taken out, although he seemed to be not against it, but this one was against it, but he was tied up and taken out ... A fairy tale. They gave the order and flew, the Germans were very good with discipline, especially since they believed in Manstein's help until the very last moment, moreover, their encircled troops retained the opportunity for a breakthrough for a very long time, and only Hitler's political decision did not allow it, and then it became too late , our troops pulled up enough troops not only to hold the encirclement, but also to destroy the boiler and protect against the de-blockade. Then, in the course of the war, we have not once succeeded in driving the enemy into the cauldron and holding him back. The Germans, albeit with huge losses, but broke through from them.
        Quote: saigon
        Stalin never gave orders to leave the encirclement, always a breakthrough with a fight and the destruction of the enemy.

        Where are you going to break through from Sevastopol? At that moment, the entire Crimea and part of the Taman Peninsula were already under the Germans ...
        Quote: saigon
        Why didn't the ships go to Sevastopol? One of the reasons for mines and our mines! But against whom?

        They were afraid of the German, Romanian and Turkish fleets ... in the First World War, only TWO ships under the Turkish flag, but with the German teams they kept our fleet in tense. And the Turkish fleet calmly destroyed our coastal cities ...
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 3 August 2020 19: 42
          -1
          Quote: svp67
          What a nightmare, but he resisted, rested his feet and hands

          You are right, the idea of ​​shooting the SS men who had been sent by Hitler and staying in the cauldron looked very romantic.
        2. saigon
          saigon 3 August 2020 19: 43
          -2
          German fleet in the Black Sea at 42? Romanian fleet destroyers or all the same coal destroyers inferior to our sevens in everything, I will simply not say anything about the Turkish fleet.
          Sergei, forgive me, but in WWI Goeben mostly skedaddle from our empresses, and from the battleships, too, skedaddle. Moreover, by 1916, in the presence of Goeben and Breslau, the Turks could not deliver coal from the Zangulak region to Istanbul, even under the coast, everything was heated.
        3. Olgovich
          Olgovich 4 August 2020 07: 21
          -3
          Quote: svp67
          They were afraid of the German, Romanian and Turkish fleets ..

          Turkey did not participate in WWII, there was no German fleet in the World Cup (several boats), the Romanian stayed at the berths throughout the war: there was not a single battle between our ships and the Romanians
          Quote: svp67
          the Turkish fleet calmly destroyed our coastal cities.

          The Turkish fleet flew into Gibraltar and sat there like a broom mouse.

          The host of the World Cup in WWI was the Russian fleet.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 4 August 2020 08: 43
            +2
            The Turkish fleet flew into Gibraltar and sat there like a broom mouse.

            Maybe the Dardanelles?
            Let's flip through the Internet -
            Although for the period 1942-1944. skirmishes at the border were not so rare and often resulted in the death of Soviet border guards. But Stalin preferred not to aggravate relations, since he perfectly understood that if Turkey entered the war on the side of the Axis countries, the position of the USSR from the unenviable could instantly turn into hopeless. This was especially true in 1941-1942.
            In the autumn of 1941, Turkey transferred divisions to the border with the USSR 24, which forced Stalin to strengthen the Transcaucasian Military District 25 with divisions. Which were clearly not superfluous on the Soviet-German front, given the state of affairs at that time.
            With the start of 1942, Turkey’s intentions were no longer in doubt among the Soviet leadership, and in April of the same year, a tank corps, six air regiments, two divisions were deployed in Transcaucasia, and the Transcaucasian Front was officially approved on 1 in May.

            The fleet may not have "strained", but the land army and the political leadership of the Turkish Republic greatly strained the USSR during the Great Patriotic War!
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 4 August 2020 11: 33
              -3
              Quote: hohol95
              Maybe the Dardanelles?


              I'm sorry, I was mistaken in my sleep, -Bosphorus, of course
              Quote: hohol95
              The fleet may not have "strained", but the land army and the political leadership of the Turkish Republic greatly strained the USSR during the Great Patriotic War!

              It was about the fleet.
  9. Eug
    Eug 3 August 2020 07: 50
    +7
    There was complete confusion and departmental structure in the organization - the ammunition was EXPORTED from Sevastopol, but the naval ammunition, not the army ammunition - and the army was responsible for the defense of Sevastopol. And they were exported to the Caucasus after the relocation of ships. In addition, fearing the Italian fleet, the Black Sea Fleet under the leadership of Oktyabrsky piled up a bunch of minefields, as always without maps or with very rough maps, leaving only narrow fairways for passage to the Sevastopol bays. German pilots "learned" them quickly enough ... as a result, according to statistics, more ships were lost on their mines than were sunk by the Germans ... There is an excellent book by Shirokorad "October against Mussolini", I highly recommend it!
    1. Eug
      Eug 3 August 2020 08: 15
      +2
      He wrote falsely - it was not the army that was responsible for the defense, Oktyabrsky was in charge of the defense, Petrov was his deputy for the land unit. But the fact that naval ammunition is being transported to the Caucasian naval bases does not change this ...
      1. Rakovor
        Rakovor 3 August 2020 08: 51
        -3
        Would you rather the Germans got the ammunition?
        1. Eug
          Eug 3 August 2020 11: 12
          +4
          I would prefer the ammunition to be shot at the enemy.
          1. saigon
            saigon 3 August 2020 12: 15
            +5
            The problem is . that many of the shells did not fit the guns that were in Sevastopol. I had to undermine the adits.
            75 mm shells for UVS and ZIS did not fit, as well as shrapnel from the old three inches (75 mm is not a typo, this is the caliber of old naval guns)
            122 mm shells for the new howitzers were not 120 mm old naval ones at the beginning of the century were full, did not go to army howitzers.
            Caliber 6 "in enough of what? Cast iron grenades of the beginning of the century, segmented and armor-piercing with a small amount of explosives useless on the land front. So they fired.
            1. Eug
              Eug 3 August 2020 20: 10
              -1
              This was also, but I read about the export of 37 mm. shells for anti-aircraft artillery, because of which Sevastopol and its defenders were practically helpless in front of the dominant German aviation .. and 37mm anti-aircraft guns are useful in land defense. And so on for several more calibers.
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 3 August 2020 08: 20
      0
      Quote: Eug
      as a result, according to statistics, more ships were lost on their mines than were sunk by the Germans


      And then, suddenly, the main crime of the Luftwaffe vultures of this theater of operations - Armenia - comes to mind.
  10. stoqn477
    stoqn477 3 August 2020 09: 02
    +5
    Quote: Varyag_0711
    How much does it cost to train a simple sailor and how much does it cost to train an officer ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?

    Now calculate how much it costs to train 80000 soldiers abandoned like dogs? Although there is talk of an army that has been fired on and is behaving with dignity, not recruits. And not every officer has the qualities to become a future Suvorov.
    1. nnz226
      nnz226 3 August 2020 13: 30
      +4
      Among the abandoned nearly 80000 fighters were not only privates, but also officers / commanders, and not a few! And all (!!!) they had great combat experience! These are not Caucasian national divisions on the Crimean front, not capable of anything!
  11. Ruby
    Ruby 3 August 2020 09: 14
    +5
    The fighting on the Crimean peninsula, personally, has always evoked different feelings in me. On the one hand, the heroism of people, a number of brilliant operations (the same landing operation on the Kerch Peninsula). On the other hand, the stupidity of the command, which eventually led to the fall of both Kerch and Sevastopol.
    The fleet is a separate topic. The heroism of the light forces and submariners in supplying Sevastopol and the complete inaction of heavy ships. What was the use of the fact that the same Paris Commune and the cruisers survived the war, they were cut on pins and needles almost immediately after the Victory. The fleet did not do everything it could in the defense of the Crimea, and practically did nothing in its liberation. It was possible to completely block the evacuation of the Germans without any problems. Especially considering the dominance of our aviation in 1944.
    1. Rakovor
      Rakovor 3 August 2020 09: 59
      +1
      Well, stupidity can only be attributed to Kerch, this does not apply to Sevastopol. After the fall of Kerch, the fate of Sevastopol was decided, especially considering the general situation on the southern flank of the defense.
      As for the large ships, would the Germans have sunk a battleship with cruisers, would it make it easier for you? All the same, they would not have saved anyone - the example of Tashkent, the fastest ship in the fleet, which reached Novorossiysk with its last gasp, is indicative.
      And in 1944, the questions were more likely not to the naval, but to the Headquarters, which actually banned large ships from going to sea, fearing their loss (quite rightly) due to the lack of BP of sailors.
  12. smaug78
    smaug78 3 August 2020 10: 30
    -3
    It is difficult to understand the logic of the admiral. A sailor from the age of 16, he knew perfectly well that the captain was the last to leave the ship and, nevertheless, took such a shameful step, hiding behind the evacuation of the army commanders.
    Just the logic is normal, the Germans from Stalingrad also evacuated a lump. composition. So the author is wrong.
    1. nnz226
      nnz226 3 August 2020 12: 58
      -2
      The commander of the 6th Army and the commanders of the Wehrmacht corps did not leave the Stalingrad cauldron! We stayed with our soldiers ...
      1. smaug78
        smaug78 3 August 2020 14: 30
        +2
        Quote: nnz226
        Commander of the 6th Army

        Still, he would not stay, and the military experts were evacuated. And the same Hube.
  13. Ruby
    Ruby 3 August 2020 10: 44
    +4
    Quote: Rakovor
    And in 1944, the questions were more likely not to the naval, but to the Headquarters, which actually banned large ships from going to sea, fearing their loss (quite rightly) due to the lack of BP of sailors.

    And the lack of BP sailors can probably be credited to the leadership of the fleet.
    There is no war without victims. The question is what to donate. An old battleship with near-zero value, or tens of thousands of soldiers with colossal combat experience, defending a key position.
    Hitler banned the breakthrough of the 6th army for a reason. For he understood perfectly well that sacrificing it saves the southern flank.
    The fall of Sevastopol caused not only a huge moral effect, but also allowed the Germans to free a large number of troops.
    1. Walking
      Walking 3 August 2020 16: 43
      -1
      From many ships to the land front, to the marines, half of the crew left. Then this shortage was made up by recruits in 1943-44, and the quality of training dropped noticeably.
  14. nnz226
    nnz226 3 August 2020 12: 57
    +4
    Oktyabrsky, back in September 1941, ordered to take out half of the Black Sea Fleet's ammunition to the Caucasus, thereby depriving the defense of ammunition in July 1942! The defense was mainly held on the 20 and 35 coastal batteries, and if they had shells, the Germans would have fought against the defense of Sevastopol for a long time. For his "art" after the war, Oktyabrsky publicly got in the face on the stage of the Sevastopol DOF with applause from the audience! Such commanders surely had to rot in Siberia, in spite of the cries of the guardsmen!
    1. VIP
      VIP 3 August 2020 15: 20
      +5
      "Having deprived the defense of ammunition in July 1942," stacks of shells lay in the Inkerman adits.
      And in the XNUMXs, they still found whole shells for naval artillery
  15. tank64rus
    tank64rus 3 August 2020 13: 35
    +6
    Why Stalin allowed the withdrawal of the highest command personnel. The only answer is Vlasov's surrender. Now he was not sure that the remaining admirals and generals would not follow Vlasov's example. In the current situation, at that time it was unacceptable.
    1. place
      place 3 August 2020 14: 24
      +3
      Quote: tank64rus
      Why Stalin allowed the withdrawal of the highest command personnel.

      ------------------------

      For the same reason that Hitler once sent Manstein to rest in his own estate after a series of setbacks. But before that, he rewarded him.

      Stalin knew better than you that the "command staff" are highly qualified specialists who can be useful. Unlike you and the author of this opus, Stalin knew what was really going on in Sevastopol. And General Petrov later proved that he could be useful. On May 29, 1945, General of the Army Ivan Efimovich Petrov was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union for skillful command and control of troops in the Berlin and Prague operations, initiative and dedication.

      It is only our compatriots who suffer from insane hatred for each other and are ready to destroy each other at the first opportunity. Moreover, if there is such a cool reason. As the people are, such is their fate!
      1. Igoresha
        Igoresha 3 August 2020 15: 39
        -6
        Ivan Efimovich Petrov was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union.
        the generals of the order were hung up for reason and without reason, even those who burned the tank corps at Prokhorovka, a Soviet tradition, read on iremember.ru who went to the orders, and who was closer to the headquarters and sat in it
        1. place
          place 3 August 2020 16: 49
          +3
          Quote: Igoresha
          the generals of the order were hanged for and without reason
          Quote: Igoresha
          Soviet tradition

          -------
          Of course, this was not the case in Tsarist Russia. There the Tsar ruled simply because the Tsar was born, although he could not understand a single belmes .... and even now - all the awards are solely on merit ...... right now, oh, how strictly with this.

          You know better, you probably would have shown yourself better than General Petrov in the Berlin and Prague operations ... I don't know. really, how would Stalin reward you ...... if he rewarded and shot you for no reason, it’s not clear how he even managed to "cope with the management"?

          It seems to me that iremember.ru has the same "specialists" as you, and their "memories" are built in accordance with funding.
          1. saigon
            saigon 3 August 2020 20: 03
            -2
            In tsarist Russia, the main reward on the list was the royal favor.
            And in the Republic of Ingushetia, they were not awarded with orders, but were promoted to knights of the order. And everything that was worn on the chest or on the ribbon was the insignia of the knights of the order. The order implies the presence of MONARCHY in the country, in non-monarchist countries all awards are, in fact, medals.
        2. Rakovor
          Rakovor 5 August 2020 10: 20
          -1
          The one who burned his star under the Prokhorovka corps only at the Brezhnev "starfall", Stalin in general, according to rumors, wanted to put him under a tribunal, but they stood up. And in 1945 they didn't give a "hero" for nothing, so you don't need to write something you don't know.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 3 August 2020 14: 39
      +6
      Quote: tank64rus
      Why Stalin allowed the withdrawal of the highest command personnel. The only answer is Vlasov's surrender. Now he was not sure that the remaining admirals and generals would not follow Vlasov's example. In the current situation, at that time it was unacceptable.

      In fact, Vlasov surrendered later and his fate was not known to Stalin before the evacuation of the naval commanders began. But you are right - such a fact would cause irreparable damage to our armed forces, which is why this decision was made. And the benefits of naval commanders in land battles are not so great as to appreciate their commanding experience - they have been trained completely differently. For example, during the war, even ordinary tankers and artillerymen were forbidden to be transferred to the infantry, because there were not enough trained military personnel, and there was an order from the Headquarters prohibiting this. I think, in this case, the fate of the naval commanders was determined not from the fact that they have shoulder straps and a commanding voice, but simply did not see the point in sending them to the infantry units.
      1. Farewell
        Farewell 3 August 2020 19: 01
        0
        If you can fit into this logic the appointment of sailors to command the land defense of Sevastopol, then maybe it will be possible to agree with it ...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 3 August 2020 19: 52
          +2
          Quote: Adieu
          If you can fit into this logic the appointment of sailors to command the land defense of Sevastopol, then maybe it will be possible to agree with it ...

          There the logic is different: since the time of Port Arthur, the naval ones have demanded that the coastal defenses of their bases be subordinated to a single command - the naval. And then, in the opinion of the naval officers, the army men are always blowing their tune and demanding something strange from the fleet (ICH, the naval, according to the army men, do the same).
          Another thing is that naval officers were not supposed to command coastal units. For this, the RKVMF had sea ​​land - commanders of coastal troops in the Navy (such as Kabanov).
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 3 August 2020 19: 55
          +3
          Quote: Adieu
          If you can fit into this logic the appointment of sailors to command the land defense of Sevastopol, then maybe it will be possible to agree with it ...

          I have already reported that on the eve of the war an organizational mistake was made and the People's Commissariat of the Navy was withdrawn into a separate structure of the armed forces, which created a number of problems in coordinating the actions of different types and branches of the troops. When the Stavka began to determine who is better to lead the defense of Sevastopol, they did not take into account that the Germans were more using ground forces, and not their own fleet, to storm our naval base, and therefore the appointment of naval commanders was hardly advisable in that situation. But I do not presume to judge the decision of that time - at that time we did not have combat experience, which came much later, and we were weaker than the Germans.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 4 August 2020 08: 41
            +2
            Quote: ccsr
            I have already reported that on the eve of the war an organizational mistake was made and the People's Commissariat of the Navy was withdrawn into a separate structure of the armed forces, which created a number of problems in coordinating the actions of different types and branches of the armed forces.

            He-he-he ... the most interesting thing is that although the NK of the Navy was made a separate structure, with the beginning of the war, the main fleets were quickly subordinated to the army. As a result, comrade Kuznetsov was, as it were, out of work - the same KBF in 1941 was actually commanded by Voroshilov (EMNIP, the order to close the southern fairway on the Tallinn-Kronstadt route came from the headquarters of the SZN).
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 4 August 2020 17: 21
              +1
              Quote: Alexey RA
              He-he-he ... the most interesting thing is that although the NK of the Navy was made a separate structure, with the beginning of the war, the main fleets were quickly subordinated to the army.

              In fact, this decision was determined by the Headquarters, which included N.G. Kuznetsov, and which was obliged to fulfill all orders and directives of the Headquarters:
              On June 23, 1941, the Main Military Council of the Red Army was abolished. On the same day, by the decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) No. 825, the Headquarters of the Main Command of the Armed Forces of the USSR was established. It consisted of: S. K. Timoshenko (chairman), G. K. Zhukov, I. V. Stalin, V. M. Molotov, K. E. Voroshilov, S. M. Budyonny, N. G. Kuznetsov.

              And what decisions were at that time not for me to tell you - you yourself know that in the first days and weeks of the war there was a mess even at the level of front management, and there is nothing to say about the fleet. Even in peacetime, traditionally, the groundmen did not always find a common language with the naval ones, and even when the war began, all these problems surfaced even at the highest level.
    3. BAI
      BAI 3 August 2020 19: 12
      +2
      Why Stalin allowed the withdrawal of the highest command personnel. The only answer is Vlasov's surrender.

      Vlasov surrendered a week later: the defense of Sevastopol ended on July 4, and Vlasov surrendered on July 11, 1942.
  16. Blue fox
    Blue fox 3 August 2020 13: 42
    11
    Being in the 4th year I went on a cadet vacation to Sevastopol. I traveled by trolley to Kamyshovaya Bay, but what, on a military card, travel was free then. Type of spearfishing was engaged - he learned to dive with his first underwater gun and shoot, since there are no beaches and there are few swimmers. Iron on the bottom is lying, of course, mostly post-war, but the trunk of a mosinka with a bayonet attached 5 meters from the shore, I immediately distinguished from rusty pipes. He pulled it out, looked, and she was without a shutter. He sat then, smoked for a long time and thought who the fighter was, that the one pressed to the sea took extra care so that the enemy did not use his weapon. Now I've seen a lot in the search, but no, no, and you will remember.
  17. Serg65
    Serg65 3 August 2020 13: 47
    +3
    Quote: BISMARCK94
    It turns out that Kuznetsov allowed the evacuation of the command. And then Stalin did not ask him?

    In those days, without Stalin's approval, a fly had no right to squeak!
  18. Earthshaker
    Earthshaker 3 August 2020 14: 05
    +1
    When Mussolini was rescued, about 200 inveterate thugs (read highly qualified specialists) Skorzeny were also left to fend for themselves, as the only Storch took off with a great creak. But these specialists knew that they were on their own and they had to get out on their own. Knowing how our propaganda and leadership know how to keep silent about information, I will not be surprised that the commanders deliberately did not spread about the number and composition of the evacuees, but they talked about evacuation. The Germans never dreamed of such a scale.
  19. VIP
    VIP 3 August 2020 15: 03
    +1
    Two or three years ago, on the History channel, I watched a d / f about these events. In short: a traitor has appeared in the city committee or in the Oktyabrsky headquarters. The consequence of this was that Manstein "at 2 o'clock in the morning, on June 29, organized a daring transfer of troops to the southern side of the Northern Bay," in fact, then key defenses fell down.
    Explosion of Inkerman warehouses. There were tens of thousands of shells, there were shells from PMA, and the cartridges were like dirt. While the fighters had every cartridge in the account.
    The evacuation of the fighters was possible on July 3-4, but large ships could not approach, and hundreds of fishing seiners and pleasure boats from the Azov and Black Seas were destroyed by order of Budyonny in May 1942.
    1. Igoresha
      Igoresha 3 August 2020 15: 42
      +1
      and the Crimean front collapsed (earlier) with a breakthrough width of 5 km
  20. antivirus
    antivirus 3 August 2020 15: 05
    -2
    it was quite possible to repel the third assault, everything depended on the support of the fleet and the delivery of ammunition.
    -the fleet defended the Caucasian oil - the last geopolitical argument of the USSR against Turkey's entry into the war
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 August 2020 19: 46
      +1
      Quote: antivirus
      it was quite possible to repel the third assault, everything depended on the support of the fleet and the delivery of ammunition.

      The fleet in the summer of 1942 was "disposable". The same "Tashkent" was able to break through to Sevastopol for the last time only because the backlashes were unloaded on the "Impeccable" going in front of it, sinking the EM.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 4 August 2020 07: 17
        -2
        it was quite possible to repel the third assault, everything depended on the support of the fleet and the delivery of ammunition.
        -this is the text of the article, from "-" my opinion
    2. saigon
      saigon 3 August 2020 20: 06
      0
      The question from whom did the fleet protect the Caucasian oil? From German BDB or Romanian destroyers?
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 4 August 2020 07: 16
        0
        from allies - Angles and the USA
        the hunted ones are shot ...
        1. saigon
          saigon 4 August 2020 10: 54
          -2
          The question is how in 1942 the Allies could get into the Black Sea, the answer is not how.
  21. VIP
    VIP 3 August 2020 15: 09
    -1
    Quote: nnz226
    The commander of the 6th Army and the commanders of the Wehrmacht corps did not leave the Stalingrad cauldron! We stayed with our soldiers ...

    So the commander's 6th surname was not Oktyabrsky
    1. art266
      art266 3 August 2020 16: 59
      +2
      Comparison with Stalingrad is not correct. It is necessary to compare similar situations, and this is the defense of Sevastopol by the Germans in April-May 1944. The commander of the German 17th Army, Almendinger, on May 10 shot from Sevastopol by sea together with the headquarters on a schnelboat. He threw the remnants of the army at Cape Chersonesos.
  22. Seal
    Seal 3 August 2020 15: 11
    0
    Quote: ccsr
    that on the eve of war The fleet was withdrawn from the People's Commissariat of Defense and was an independent People's Commissariat, not subordinate to either the People's Commissar of Defense or the General Staff, which subsequently gave rise to confusion in the relations of senior military commanders in a critical situation when the Stavka tried to manage these structures.

    I didn't want to get involved, but I can't help but notice that the People's Commissariat of the USSR Navy (NKVMF USSR) was separated into an independent People's Commissariat on December 30, 1937.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 3 August 2020 20: 13
      +2
      Quote: Seal
      I didn't want to get involved, but I can't help but notice that the People's Commissariat of the USSR Navy (NKVMF USSR) was separated into an independent People's Commissariat on December 30, 1937.

      A year and a half before the start of World War II, and three and three and a half before the start of the Great Patriotic War - this is certainly not considered "the day before" in your opinion, especially since the very formation of the NKVMF for at least six months had to take place due to organizational changes. This is all happening quickly with you, but in reality it was feverish for at least a year and a half, so there was no time for issues of interaction between the two people's commissariats at that time. You just didn’t face it, and I went through this during the collapse of the Union and the withdrawal of troops from the GSVG, when some formations and units were sent to other Union republics, and not to Russia.
  23. fa2998
    fa2998 3 August 2020 15: 16
    0
    [quote = Varyag_0711] Yes, it is hard that it was not possible to evacuate everyone, but the command to evacuate was simply essential.
    How much does it cost to train a simple sailor and how much does it cost to train an officer ?! The author does not seem to have any thoughts on this?

    Well, yes, they saved the "generals"! Yes, training an officer is certainly more expensive and longer than a private. But without the command of life, tens of thousands were sacrificed.
    There were many cases when the command REFUSED to evacuate, and fought with the troops. In Crimea, it itself demanded to withdraw "responsible persons". No.
  24. Seal
    Seal 3 August 2020 15: 21
    -3
    Quote: Rakovor
    the example of Tashkent, the fastest ship in the fleet, which reached Novorossiysk on its last legs, is indicative.

    The example is not the best. Tashkent did not have a reservation for a deck or sides. Had only armored turrets ..... armor thickness 8 mm.

    But the battleship Chervona Ukraine is another matter.
    Reservation
    board - 76 mm,
    wheelhouse - 76 mm,
    deck and top chord 25 mm.

    Or take the cruiser Krasny Kavkaz.
    Reservation
    75mm main belt
    20-25 mm armored deck
    125 mm conning tower
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 August 2020 16: 41
      +5
      Quote: Seal
      But the battleship Chervona Ukraine is another matter.

      Since when did the Svetlana-class light cruiser become a battleship? wink
      She was of the same type with "KyrKav" before the modernization of the latter.
      1. Seal
        Seal 16 August 2020 20: 15
        0
        Hmm, I got screwed up. Ashamed crying
    2. BAI
      BAI 3 August 2020 19: 55
      +1
      board - 76 mm,
      wheelhouse - 76 mm,

      Well, the KV-1 has such armor. The forehead of the tower is 90 mm.
      Here is Bismarck - side 320 mm.
      And Chervona Ukraine has never been a battleship.
      1. Seal
        Seal 16 August 2020 20: 17
        0
        Hmm, I got screwed up. Ashamed crying
    3. saigon
      saigon 3 August 2020 20: 11
      +1
      Battleship Chervona Ukraine? Yes, fear God, an old light cruiser like Svetlana, Krasny Kavkaz is also a light cruiser, only 180 mm guns
      1. Seal
        Seal 16 August 2020 20: 15
        0
        Hmm, I got screwed up. Ashamed crying
    4. andrew42
      andrew42 4 August 2020 14: 20
      +1
      Let me be curious, when did Chervona Ukraina manage to grow into a whole battleship? - So, for clarification I asked. I don't like mistakes in details in the middle of pathos.
      1. Seal
        Seal 16 August 2020 20: 15
        0
        Hmm, I got screwed up. Ashamed crying
  25. art266
    art266 3 August 2020 16: 43
    +2
    The Germans in May 1944 did the same. Almendinger with his headquarters flew to the mainland, leaving the remnants of the 17th army, which was no longer possible to evacuate.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 3 August 2020 17: 23
      -3
      Some strange analogy. Almendinger was evacuated on May 10, in the midst of a full-scale evacuation of the 17th Army.
      1. art266
        art266 3 August 2020 22: 04
        +3
        And how did this "large-scale evacuation" end?
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 4 August 2020 10: 04
          0
          Ends with limited success
          From May 3 to May 8, 3200 people were taken out, on May 10-13, 19.000 people arrived in Constanta, on May 13 at 12 noon, another 2500 people were at sea. On the same day, 700 people arrived in Sulina. From May 3 to May 13, 300 people were evacuated by aircraft, while 150 people arrived on the mainland who were not registered. From 3 to 13 May, 850 people arrived from subordinate to the sea commandant of the Crimea and other subdivisions of the fleet. In total, 26.700 people, of which 10.000 were wounded.

          In total, since the beginning of the evacuation on April 12, out of 230.000 people of the 17th Army, 130.000 people were taken to the mainland by the German and Romanian fleets, while another 21.457 soldiers were taken out by Luftwaffe aircraft.
    2. Yuri Guliy
      Yuri Guliy 3 August 2020 19: 57
      -4
      In May 1944, near Sevastopol, about three thousand Germans and Romanians were taken prisoner.
      That "somewhat" less than the Soviet soldiers and officers because of the "wise" leadership of Oktyabrsky.
      1. art266
        art266 3 August 2020 22: 01
        +2
        What three thousand ?!
        At Cape Chersonesos, 21 thousand enemy soldiers and officers were taken prisoner, a large amount of equipment and weapons were captured.
        If only minimal information was made on the defense and liberation of Sevastopol!
        1. Rakovor
          Rakovor 5 August 2020 10: 24
          -2
          Does he need it? Just to fart into a puddle.))
          1. Yuri Guliy
            Yuri Guliy 6 August 2020 06: 10
            -1
            I really hope that the Military Review in the next publication will give objective information about the captured Germans and Romanians in May 1944 in Sevastopol, and not throughout the Crimea
  26. Operator
    Operator 3 August 2020 18: 44
    -3
    Oktyabrsky's corpse at the Sevastopol cemetery must be dug up, ground up and scattered in the wind.
  27. BAI
    BAI 3 August 2020 18: 53
    +2
    In general, in World War II, the Germans never achieved such a massive use of artillery.

    Sevastopol, in essence, disabled almost all German large-caliber artillery - the barrels were worn out. Remained only in Leningrad. After Sevastopol, the Germans did not use large-caliber artillery practically anywhere in battles. And if Karl and Dora were firing at Leningrad?
    An exemplary retreat - Model's departure from Rzhev.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 August 2020 19: 11
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      After Sevastopol, the Germans did not use large-caliber artillery practically anywhere in battles. And if Karl and Dora were firing at Leningrad?

      For work in Leningrad, the "Karlov" has too little firing range. They would have to be dragged practically to the front lines. But in Warsaw, one of these mortars worked.
      And although Manstein did not bring the Dora and Karlov, other KK guns arrived with him.

      At Leningrad, the German KK artillery fired almost until the blockade was completely lifted. Even large-caliber Frenchmen (40 cm and 52 cm) were used at one time.
      On December 28, 1943, as part of the units and subdivisions of the 303rd High Artillery Command, the Germans had such a grouping of artillery of large and special power near Leningrad:
      2 24 cm Czech cannons;
      9 24 cm H39 howitzers;
      1 24 cm French railway cannon;
      6 21-cm K38 cannons;
      2 cannons K5;
      8 40 cm French railway howitzers;
      2 installations "Short Bruno";
      3 (two on alert) 34 cm French railway guns;
      3 (one in combat readiness) 37 cm French howitzers;
      1 mortar "Gamma";
      1 42 cm Czech mortar;
      5 30,5 cm Czech mortars.

      https://warspot.ru/11875-osadnaya-artilleriya-pod-leningradom
      1. saigon
        saigon 4 August 2020 11: 09
        0
        An interesting list, but why did the Czech and French guns caliber in cm for the Chekhovs and the French, the caliber in mm for the Germans, and in cm for the Germans? Strangely, I followed the link, and there are all the tools in cm!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 4 August 2020 15: 37
          0
          Quote: saigon
          An interesting list, but why did the Czech and French guns caliber in cm for the Chekhovs and the French, the caliber in mm for the Germans, and in cm for the Germans? Strangely, I followed the link, and there are all the tools in cm!

          Because this is most likely taken from German documents. And for the Germans, the caliber for all guns, even for captured ones, was written in centimeters.
  28. BAI
    BAI 3 August 2020 19: 07
    +3
    The defense of Sevastopol ended on July 4, 1942. On July 11, 1942, Vlasov surrendered. Before that, the entire command of the South-Western Front, led by Kirponos, was surrounded and killed. Several army commanders were captured or killed in cauldrons on the Western Front.
    Everything looks (the evacuation of the command) rather disgusting, but from a military point of view, this makes a certain sense.
    Manstein near Korsun-Shevchenkovsky was happy first of all that the command of the surrounded group had managed to get out of the encirclement.
  29. depressant
    depressant 3 August 2020 22: 14
    +2
    Yes, reading was unbearably painful. But there were also the Adzhimushkay quarries in Kerch.
  30. RoTTor
    RoTTor 3 August 2020 22: 48
    +1
    F. Oktyabrsky - the hero of the Khrushchev spill:
    "For" skilful leadership of the fleet and shown courage, courage and heroism in the struggle against the Nazi invaders "by the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of February 20, 1958, Admiral Oktyabrsky (Ivanov) Philip Sergeevich was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union with the award of the Order of Lenin and a medal" Gold Star "(No. 10800).
  31. DrEng527
    DrEng527 3 August 2020 22: 55
    -2
    The author has sincere respect for raising a very complex topic ... hi
  32. Pacifist
    Pacifist 4 August 2020 09: 42
    -1
    I read and forgive me. It's a pity you can't minus the articles. I read more nonsense only in the media of Banderland.
  33. place
    place 4 August 2020 13: 55
    +2
    I didn't quite understand why, given the "forces of the parties" (119 thousand - the USSR, 204 thousand - Germany) -
    losses of the USSR were more than 200 thousand?
    How to explain this? In the conditions of defense (!!!!) hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers were transported to Sevastopol?
    And why the losses of Germany (36 thousand) are given only for the last 2 months?
    And before that, they did not die at all?
  34. andrew42
    andrew42 4 August 2020 14: 16
    +1
    These were the "command cadres" like Comrade Oktyabrsky. At the same time, many extremists regularly try to blame Stalin for his attitude towards the generals of the Red Army. There were not so many reliable and capable personnel. So we have, on the one hand, General Lukin, who died during a breakthrough from the encirclement along with his army with the remnants of others, and on the other hand, the "commodity" Oktyabrsky, frankly speaking, sdrisnul from Sevastopol. But he was not seriously injured, he could well perform duties. Life is such a thing that it happens, there is nowhere to retreat, it remains to sell your life dearly. But not everyone is capable of bravely accepting death among his comrades in arms. And the higher the post / position of the runner, the more shame and shame.
    1. place
      place 4 August 2020 14: 49
      +1
      Quote: andrew42
      Life is such a thing that it happens, there is nowhere to retreat, it remains to sell your life dearly.

      --------------------------------------

      This is yes! Only the Germans had and enjoyed the right to surrender. Their life could still be useful to Germany!

      And who needs the life of a Russian, even a general, or even a soldier? Other Russians will spit and grind: "Maxim died, and to hell with him ....." About the same reasoned then and the employees of the NKVD- "ordinary Russian people"; "You bastard, why didn't you die and shoot yourself ??? Why did you stay alive?"
      DO NOT JUDGE YOU !!! A whole people fucked up their country with songs in peacetime in 1991-1993, and now they are talking more ...
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 4 August 2020 16: 54
        -2
        ort. "And who needs the life of a Russian, even a general, even a soldier?" - so a general, or a soldier? You really decide. It was about a "general" leaving his "soldiers" to die in the tens of thousands in a hopeless situation. Why are you interfering in one heap? In your opinion, it turns out that the defeated "military genius" is more valuable than 80 Red Army soldiers? Oh well. In the Russian language there is such an epithet called "Skin". This is about those who have their own shirt closer to the body. Who hopes to die in a warm bed and not "For their own friends." ... There are always self-seekers, and they will eat, but these are not the Sons of the Fatherland, they are not worthy of awards and titles. And why is it "NOT YOU JUDGE", and where does 000-1991? My judgments do not need your sanction, this time. I consider the deliberate destruction of the Soviet Union (by the sold part of the party elite) a crime that has no statute of limitations, that's two. But this does not apply to the topic of the article. These are three.
    2. Rakovor
      Rakovor 5 August 2020 07: 01
      0
      Generally speaking, General Lukin was wounded and taken prisoner, and died in 1970. Go teach history, uncle, before you post your illiterate comments here.
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 5 August 2020 13: 17
        -2
        Yes. with Lukin I was a little mistaken, it happens when you write from memory. But this does not change the essence of my presentation. So, my erudite uncle :) Googled it myself and am glad to answer from tyrnet.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 5 August 2020 17: 35
          0
          Quote: andrew42
          Googled right away and was glad to answer from the tyrnet.

          Those who were even slightly interested in the history of the Second World War do not need to google Lukin's fate. Because Lukin is a textbook example of successful filtration after captivity.
  35. place
    place 4 August 2020 15: 18
    +1
    Even after losing the war, the Germans honor both their beaten veterans and generals and, I guess, their attitude towards Hitler is not what they officially demonstrate.
    They honor their own people, because neither their own. THIS IS WITH ALL MINUSES - A CIVILIZED NATION.

    This level is not yet available to us. To spit and spoil the memory of ancestors, "who died in vain", because they were not obeyed to those who had to poke their noses with a contemptuous look at mistakes, call it disgusting, to put it on our chest as a reward. The Lord will look at such, look, and one day he will take, and even wipe them off the face of the Earth ...
    1. Rakovor
      Rakovor 5 August 2020 07: 06
      -1
      Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side, then bish from his sofa.
  36. Yuriy31
    Yuriy31 4 August 2020 18: 28
    +1
    The disgrace of the command in the defense of our city was not 3 days, but all 250 days. Studied this story closely. There, as they used to say in the old days: "The sea is vast and the guides are innumerable." And for all the miscalculations of these stupid sycophants, a Russian soldier and a sailor paid with their lives. If not for the Kerch landing, the city would have been taken in winter, and without any problems. And in the end, Land General Manstein wiped his nose to Admiral Ivanov with an amphibious assault, which our leaders discovered only when the second wave of this assault went, and then they thought it was an air assault and not a sea one. And I studied history not from the vyseurs of the escaped admirals, but also from the words of the few soldiers who survived then. That sad story turned out helluva lot.
  37. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 4 August 2020 18: 28
    -2
    First, by the beginning of July, the defense of Sevastopol disintegrated into separate centers, which were no longer possible to lead.
    Secondly, Admiral Oktyabrsky was also the commander of the Black Sea Fleet.
    Therefore, one can only imagine what would happen if he and the staff were captured?
    What kind of gift would it be to Hitler? And the fleet would be left without command?
    1. Rakovor
      Rakovor 5 August 2020 07: 16
      +1
      But to whom you explain, here, basically, stupid trolls are sitting. As for me, Oktyabrsky shouldn't have been in Sevastopol at all, because the main forces of the fleet were on the Caucasian coast, and he was supposed to be there with his headquarters, to lead this fleet. It was at the whim of the Stavka that they shoved him into Sevastopol, but then they realized it and took him out.
      It is generally nonsense to put the naval base, albeit the main one, at the head of the defense, the commanding officer of the fleet.
      For some reason, Tributs and Golovko were not at the head of the defense of Leningrad and Murmansk.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 5 August 2020 17: 39
        0
        Quote: Rakovor
        For some reason, Tributs and Golovko were not at the head of the defense of Leningrad and Murmansk.

        Duc ... who is Tributs in the background first red officer or the former NGSH RKKA? smile
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 6 August 2020 12: 35
        +1
        Quote: Rakovor
        It is generally nonsense to put the naval base, albeit the main one, at the head of the defense, the commanding officer of the fleet.
        For some reason, Tributs and Golovko were not at the head of the defense of Leningrad and Murmansk.

        Quite right - only illiterate people believe that a naval commander is simply obliged to be able to command ground forces, especially against a more powerful and better trained group of the Wehrmacht. As for the departure of Oktyabrsky from Sevastopol, he left it by order of the Headquarters, and not out of his own cowardice, otherwise he would have simply been shot, regardless of his position. And I am 100% sure that he personally did not ask Kuznetsov or Stalin to give permission for his evacuation - it was easier for him to shoot himself immediately after such a request. One can somehow imagine that under more favorable conditions he would have undertaken an exit from the encircled Sevastopol, as Boldin did in Belarus in 1941, but the units that broke through would simply not have been able to leave the Crimea, because the terrain is different, and it is unlikely they could be evacuated somewhere. And it would have happened what happened to the heroes of Adzhimushkaya, who could not break through and remained surrounded until almost everyone died, because our troops from the other side of the Kerch Strait could not help them. As for the awarding of Oktyabrsky after the war, it was, of course, a political trick, because Khrushchev tried in every possible way to smear Stalin, and in this he did not disdain anything.
  38. Polar Bear
    Polar Bear 4 August 2020 22: 09
    +2
    If the commanders died along with the soldiers, would it be better? Even before the war there was a shortage of personnel in the senior officers, and even more so in 1942. And many died and were captured, were shot by the tribunal, but there is no replacement for them and nowhere to take. It is easy to condemn now 75 years later, both them and Stalin.
  39. Andycomm
    Andycomm 5 August 2020 08: 05
    +1
    I have argued and will always maintain that in military affairs, the fact of heroism, and even more so the mass heroism of soldiers, is the surest sign of deficiency, incompetence and other treachery of the staff.

    "Everyone around is just repeating:" Saboteurs, saboteurs! "If the protection is carried out correctly, there can be no saboteurs." (C) gene. Serpilin
  40. Metropolitan
    Metropolitan 5 August 2020 10: 15
    +1
    What did the author want to say? What bastards commanders? But this is not so, the commanders are also people and they are inherent in the usual human fears and vices, and among them, as among ordinary soldiers, there were cowards and cowards. BUT! The overwhelming majority of soldiers, sailors, officers, generals, admirals and ordinary people showed miracles of heroism and fortitude! The only fact is MASS HEROISM AND STABILITY OF THE SOVIET PEOPLE at all levels! God forbid anyone from writing such articles and maliciously commenting on them in such circumstances as the defenders of Sevastopol appear. And the big question is how they would behave in these circumstances. And it is not necessary to sit on a warm sofa, "scratch" with your tongue and carry on abstruse reasoning!
  41. Molot1979
    Molot1979 8 August 2020 07: 22
    +1
    The heroism of the fighters is beyond doubt. But I would like to talk about the command in more detail.
    The thesis that the command has "thrown to the mercy" is puzzling. Was it Spider-Man and Batman in command? Could it destroy the attacking Germans with its superpower? It alone could replace the missing thousands of tons of ammunition? And then mystically would transfer all the defenders to the mainland? Yes, it seems like nothing of the kind has been noticed by the COP command. Ordinary people. Therefore, if they had stayed in Sevastopol, only the statistics of our losses would have changed. Without any benefit to the cause. They like to remember about commander 33 Efremov. But what did the country and the army really get from his chivalry? +1 dead general and nothing else. And what has been received from the evacuated generals of the SOR? Krylov is one of the organizers of the defense of Stalingrad. Petrov - in the future he spoiled a lot of blood for the Germans. Oktyabrsky alone did not win laurels. And what about the enemies? And they have the same thing. No one pulled Paulus out of the cauldron. But Hube was ordered to dump and he dumped. And then he did us a lot of harm. Likewise, the commander of the Velikiye Luki garrison. The order was given, and Scherer departed to the rear, leaving von Sass to puff. And no one asked if Scherer wanted to go to the rear or if he wanted to fall heroically, leading the last platoon into the attack. The army is discipline and order, not its own wishlist and a field of knightly quirks.
  42. lelik613
    lelik613 8 August 2020 08: 02
    0
    "it was necessary ... to evict ... all nationalities ..."

    You are missing the context of what is happening; it is an act of war, like evacuating factories and digging defensive lines. The balance fluctuates and very dramatic changes are possible. And .... the plan "Unthinkable" did not grow from scratch ...
  43. orcinus
    orcinus 8 August 2020 14: 44
    -1
    When you just read a description of the geographical points of hostilities, then the completeness of the picture is not in your head, but when I was resting in Nikolaev in 2011 and traveled on excursions to those places, looked at the places of those battles, I realized that the participants in the defense had accomplished a superhuman feat! As for the escaped, it is the escaped! command, then I consider them unambiguously guilty! Here someone writes that it is advisable to save a general, not a simple soldier, they say the general has more experience and education, but how can such a "specialist" practically help if he could not really assess the situation with the capabilities of the Germans in terms of the duration of the assault, and the landing across the Northern Bay is generally a separate topic for analyzing the "genius" of the commanders
  44. uralant
    uralant 26 August 2020 11: 47
    0
    The aspects of defense are well disclosed, but the conclusions ... The conclusions are the usual liberoid ones. Either an old perestroika article or a new liberalist reprinted it. It's good now to see a fight from the side over a cup of coffee. They can't throw help - they blocked it, they can't bring ammunition - they blocked it, and they can't evacuate thousands of fighters, there is no organization. In Odessa, the organization was not blocked, but in the blocked Sevastopol, it disappeared somewhere. Here's a bad luck. Lost and netuti. Here's a grandfather, a defender, he was crying not because he was abandoned, he understood that there was no way to evacuate even part of the soldiers, he cried, remembering the dead friends and imagining that such hulks would appear and slander their feat. Them, their commanders! You'd better be swollen apukhtin!
  45. Living7111972
    Living7111972 21 September 2020 09: 04
    0
    The bitch leadership showed itself from the very first days of the war ...
  46. The comment was deleted.
  47. xomaNN
    xomaNN 1 October 2020 21: 13
    0
    the Tatars began to shoot the wounded,

    The genes of the Crimean Tatars are still making them "cannon fodder" for the Ukrainian. SBU in sabotage in Crimea
  48. xomaNN
    xomaNN 1 October 2020 21: 21
    0
    that is, 79 soldiers were thrown in Sevastopol, of which only 956 people were saved.

    And this is after the competent evacuation of the defenders of Odessa.
    And the little soul adm. October negative , which not only ruled the Black Sea Fleet mediocrely. And with the overwhelming superiority of the Black Sea Fleet over the enemy: small BC of the Germans, Romanians and Italians managed to lose the battle at sea. So such a "valuable cadre" had to be taken out, so that in a few months he would again fail in Taman and Kerch the management of raiding naval operations. hi
  49. Lena.72mail.ru
    Lena.72mail.ru 26 October 2020 13: 12
    0
    To cleanse the hero city of Sevastopol from shame, you need to remove the name "G. Oktyabrsky" from our streets, as long as this name is, the city will not be cleansed of it.