Destroy American bombers at all costs! The cheeky raid of Japanese commandos


B-29 bombers methodically and inexorably turned Japanese cities into piles of burnt ruins


Beating


The main problem of the Japanese in World War II was the choice of an enemy beyond their strength. It was pointless to rush at America, the industrial potentials of the parties were so unequal. Having made a beautiful blitzkrieg in Southeast Asia due to careful planning and surprise of the strike, the Japanese were in a difficult situation when these factors ceased to act.

Already from the middle of 1942, the war in the Pacific ceased to go into "one gate", and from 1944 only the Japanese were beaten. And they beat me painfully. The Americans switched the industry to military tracks and built so many ships, planes, and ammunition that the enemy simply could not inflict damage on them, more or less comparable with their losses.

To make matters worse, the Americans, the farther, the denser they got to Japan itself. And since 1944, giant B-29 bombers were launched there. Climbing closer and closer to Tokyo, the Americans seized new islands. Large enough turned into airbases for heavy bombers - and attacks on Japanese cities were carried out more often.

By May 1945, the Americans managed to take possession of the lion's share of the large island of Okinawa, capturing, including several Japanese airfields. And, of course, the B-29s used them with pleasure. By that time, the tactics of bombarding Japanese cities with incendiary bombs had already been worked out - from low altitudes to hit more accurately. Paper and wood buildings flashed like matches. At least tens of thousands of people perished in fiery tornadoes.

Suicide


The Japanese did not have the strength to look at this. I really wanted to somehow influence the bombing. With this it was extremely tight: the air defense was weak, the material balance of power was extremely sad.

True, since 1944, the idea of ​​suicide attacks began to gain weight. The logic was simple: “Our people are massively dying and cannot cause the enemy distinct damage. So let them at least die and inflict this same damage. ”

The benefit of technical development allowed this to be realized. Era of managed weapons not yet come, but the Japanese could get it by paying for it with the life of a pilot. He simply "aimed" his plane at the target right up to the last, than achieved high accuracy of hitting. And raised the efficiency aviation as a whole.

This practice could be transferred to other types of troops. In the case of subversive units, simply by creating plans that did not imply a return. Which greatly saved resources, and, as a result, also increased efficiency.


Japanese paratroopers before flying to Yomitan and Kadena airfields

Approximately such a raid was conceived by the leaders of the Giretsu Kutaytai created at the end of 1944 - it was translated approximately as a "detachment of heroic paratroopers." The unit was originally made for the task of "suddenly breaking into the airfield and incapacitating as many damned B-29s as possible."

But, while administrative red tape and training of personnel were going on, the Americans moved further and further. And the leadership planned to strike at one airfield, then at another. And time passed. And in the end, they decided that it was a shame to delay Okinawa further and it was time to attack right now - otherwise, you see, the war would end.

Preparing for the final battle


"Heroic paratroopers" was planned to put in 12 Ki-21 bombers. Saboteurs have expanded the background of the task. Now they should not just spoil the bombers, but help a large wave of kamikazes who were trying to hit the American the fleet. The paratroopers had to do this by removing two important American airfields on Okinawa - Yomitan and Kaden, from a standing position.

The idea was to land at the airdromes with the landing gear retracted, and, after leaving the aircraft, disperse, and then deploy the explosives. Thus, the Americans will not be able to use the runways for as long as possible - first they will need to destroy the saboteurs, and then also drag the planes. While all this will be done, the kamikaze will be struck with a productive blow - enemy fighters will not interfere with them.

Destroy American bombers at all costs! The cheeky raid of Japanese commandos
Ki-21 take off

Weapons of the paratroopers were not stingy. They were given a lot of automatic weapons - both under the pistol and under the rifle cartridge, as well as light mortars. Divided into units, each with its own specialization. But each one carried explosives - in order to disable as many American aircraft as possible, ideally - B-29.

Everything goes awry


On the evening of May 24, 1945, on the eve of the kamikaze attack, 12 aircraft with saboteurs flew towards the anti-aircraft guns and American fighters. They were supported by fifty Japanese bombers, delivering distracting attacks on the very airfields that the paratroopers were targeting.

Four Ki-21s with saboteurs had to be turned back - technical problems. But the rest went to the full program. The Americans at night Hellkets with radars smashed the attackers to pieces - dozens of attacking bombers and all planes with saboteurs were shot down.

One, however, was shot down with an unexpected effect. Ridged, the Ki-21 crashed into the runway of the Yomitan airfield. Surviving saboteurs jumped out - only 11 people. And set to work.

Seize your chance


The Americans did not expect such tricks from a snuffbox. According to all the laws of military logic, the pilots of a downed plane had to leave it in the worst case and rush into the jungle - where it is most difficult to find them. But a lot of small ones rushed out of the big dead bug - and then it began to painfully sting.

All this had to be digested. Then open random shooting - the dispersed Japanese were, it seemed, everywhere. It took tens of minutes to establish more or less distinct attempts to organizely catch and kill saboteurs in an organized manner, and it took long hours to fully clear Yomitan from the Japanese.


Aftermath

For those half days that the airfield did not operate, the paratroopers managed to destroy 8 American planes - though, mostly, the Corsairs and transporters, not one of the coveted B-29s. Well, 26 pieces were damaged - and again without damage to heavy bombers. Still managed to kill as many as 2 Americans and injure about two dozen. The list of Japanese successes completes the burned fuel depot.

The cat and mouse cost the Japanese who got to Yomitan 10 killed saboteurs. One, having used up ammunition and explosives, managed to escape into the jungle - a month and a half later he reached his own and cheerfully reported his adventures. In total, the "heroic paratroopers" lost 99 people - most of them were those that were shot down before they had time to fly up to their targets.

The “exchange” was perhaps not legendary. But at least the saboteurs managed to inflict losses on the Americans, more or less comparable with their own. By the standards of 1945, it was quite a success, despite the failure of the raid concept as such. But such actions, of course, could not save Japan - it was already too late.
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  1. Pessimist22 5 February 2020 05: 28 New
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    I also read about balloons with an ulcer, like they started in the direction of the wind, they thought to poison America.
  2. Talgarets 5 February 2020 05: 45 New
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    An impudent attempt to raise a corpse to its feet ...
    One wonders involuntarily, but was there any sense in the death of these paratroopers?
    1. Olgovich 5 February 2020 08: 18 New
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      Quote: Talgarets
      One wonders involuntarily, but was there any sense in the death of these paratroopers?

      A drowning man grabs a straw ...

      It makes no sense, but nothing else is left ...

      Although, I think, if they sent troops to the jungle, there would be much more sense: the same only survivor calmly got to his own through them ...
      1. Blackmokona 5 February 2020 11: 36 New
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        Could capitulate and save millions of lives of their compatriots. All the same, there was no chance of winning
        1. Olgovich 5 February 2020 12: 06 New
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          Quote: BlackMokona
          Could capitulate and save millions of lives of their compatriots. All the same, there was no chance of winning

          it was the best way out for all, yes, but there are few examples of such in recent history ....
        2. Fat
          Fat 6 February 2020 16: 04 New
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          Quote: BlackMokona
          Could capitulate and save millions of lives of their compatriots. All the same, there was no chance of winning

          There are always chances for a decent world. How many lives were saved by Admiral Kurita, who escaped from Leyte Gulf? Operation Ce 1, brilliantly played out the day before, remained incomplete. Many sailors and ships died for his breakthrough.
          “Humanist” Kurita simply leaked all the sacrifices for the breakthrough of his group.
          Actually, from his flight, the procession of Super Fortries began.
        3. Old shoe 7 February 2020 17: 39 New
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          Quote: BlackMokona
          Could capitulate and save millions of lives of their compatriots. All the same, there was no chance of winning

          And you know, if you ignore the fact that they are enemies, you can probably only pay tribute to their courage. And about expediency and chances ... Now, everyones especially smart and practical like to speculate on the expediency of the defense of Leningrad and the justification of such losses. Or maybe our grandfathers won in that war because they simply fought for their homeland, and did not figure out the chances of a favorable outcome of this or that battle
          1. Blackmokona 7 February 2020 18: 03 New
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            If they had started to reason right away, then the Germans would have been kicked in the back in 1940 while they were rushing to France, and they would have met 41 years in Berlin. And for all sorts of reasonings which we are not heroic we would send to
            1. ccsr 7 February 2020 19: 15 New
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              Quote: BlackMokona
              If they had started to reason right away, then the Germans would have been kicked in the back in 1940 while they were rushing to France, and they would have met 41 years in Berlin.

              For such cases, there is a good Russian proverb - "Walking broadly, tearing your pants."
              We did not have the opportunity to start a war against the best army in the world in 1940 - we still did not fully learn the Finnish lessons to bring the Red Army to such a level.
              1. Blackmokona 8 February 2020 09: 00 New
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                Verkhmakht’s progress for this year was much more than the Red Army, Verkhmakht received mountains of arms from France and Britain, captured the industry of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway, Greece, Luksenburg, gained valuable combat experience, raised morale, trained tactics and strategies and so on list
                1. ccsr 8 February 2020 11: 15 New
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                  Quote: BlackMokona
                  Verkhmakht’s progress for this year was much more than the Red Army,

                  I think that you have a poor idea of ​​what the Red Army was in 1939. If you are interested, read the reports on the Finnish results, and everything will immediately become clear to those who know military affairs.
                  1. Blackmokona 8 February 2020 13: 15 New
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                    Any army like this, read the war on the Foklands, the British described it in detail.
                    Yes, and the United States sucked their storm in the desert as they could. Like Israel its wars.
                    Everywhere a complete mess, insanity, weapons that are not working at every opportunity, throwing allies and so on.
                    1. ccsr 8 February 2020 15: 46 New
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                      Quote: BlackMokona
                      Any army like that, read the Fokland War

                      There isn’t any, because there are wars the main purpose of which is a banal robbery, and they waged a war against us to destroy our people. So if we did not have the opportunity to defeat Hitler in 1939, then we did not have to provoke him into a war against us - for any sane person this is obvious.
                      1. Blackmokona 8 February 2020 16: 03 New
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                        Firstly, in 1940, when Hitler stormed France.
                        Secondly, all wars are like that, from protecting their land, suddenly the weapon does not start to work without errors, tactics do not blow into the sky of infallibility, and so on
                      2. ccsr 8 February 2020 16: 22 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Firstly, in 1940, when Hitler stormed France.

                        What does it matter to us if France refused to enter into a military alliance with us in 1939?
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Secondly, all wars are

                        Marxism divides wars into imperialist aggression and national liberation, and I am inclined to believe such a definition. In any case, the participants in the wars always have clearly opposite goals, if they are viewed from an independent perspective.
                        But this is not the point, but the fact that, in any case, neither in 1939 nor in 1940. we did not have an army capable of independently defeating the Wehrmacht. And there was no reason to believe the "little ones" - this discovery of the Second Front in 1944 proved.
                      3. Blackmokona 8 February 2020 18: 56 New
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                        1) What do we care about the opinion of France with whom to fight?
                        2) The objectives of the war do not affect the mess in the army
                      4. ccsr 9 February 2020 11: 28 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        1) What do we care about the opinion of France with whom to fight?

                        Then it is incomprehensible your itch about the fact that we supposedly had to hit the Germans in 1940 - why on earth should we do this if we had a peace treaty with them?
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        2) The objectives of the war do not affect the mess in the army

                        What are you trying to convey to the masses with these revelations?
                      5. Blackmokona 9 February 2020 12: 44 New
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                        1) In order not to snatch off in 1941
                        2) The fact that the correctness or incorrectness of the goals of the war does not affect the competence of the army and the military-industrial complex
                      6. ccsr 9 February 2020 15: 26 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        1) In order not to snatch off in 1941

                        If we did what you would like, then we would have suffered a worse defeat than in 1941, if only because the attacking units suffer heavy losses. You can call other reasons, but it’s better to study the results of Finnish yourself, where we were advancing.
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        ) The fact that the correctness or incorrectness of the goals of the war does not affect the competence of the army and the military-industrial complex

                        Well, where does the mess in the army then, which in your opinion is inherent in everyone?
                      7. Blackmokona 9 February 2020 15: 43 New
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                        1) The Berlin operation of the Red Army lost 80 thousand on our part, 400 thousand with enemy corpses and 380 thousand prisoners.
                        Okay, the Germans aren’t very here already, let's see how it was in Stalingrad when we went on the offensive
                        “During the Stalingrad offensive operation, two German were destroyed, two Romanian and one Italian armies were destroyed. 32 divisions and 3 brigades were destroyed, 16 divisions were destroyed. The troops of the Axis countries lost more than 800 thousand people [21], the losses of Soviet troops amounted to 485 thousand . people, including irrevocable - 155 thousand "
                        Oh what the hellish losses on the offensive
                        2) The fact that the presence of a mess in Finnish does not mean that the army is worthless.
                      8. ccsr 9 February 2020 16: 43 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        The Berlin operation of the Red Army lost 80 thousand from our side, 400 thousand with enemy corpses and 380 thousand prisoners.

                        Well, you compared - the Red Army in 1945 was a cut above the German, because we ourselves learned how to fight, and the country worked for war, and this is where such victories come from.
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Oh what the hellish losses on the offensive

                        Once again, you snatch an episode of the war and draw a conclusion on it, not taking into account a number of specific points, including the courage of our fighters in the battles for Stalnigrad. But at the beginning of the war, when the troops have not yet been exhausted by battles, the advancing units suffer an average of two to three times more losses than defenders - as military science claims, but you decided to refute it. Well, well, success to you ....
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        The fact that the presence of a mess in Finnish does not mean that the army is worthless.

                        This showed the true position of the Red Army in 1939. Why this was not the case in the war with a stronger Japan - you definitely did not think about it.
                      9. Blackmokona 9 February 2020 19: 22 New
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                        1) So we, when attacking Germany in 1940, will fight with its worst parts, the best in France
                        2) Military science says that the attacker needs three-fold superiority of fire in order to bear losses equal to those of the defender. But they attack with concentrated striking forces, and do not run strictly 1 to 1 on the entire front. Therefore, ordinarily superior superiority in firepower on the attack line is easily created, and then losses are not at all in favor of defense
                      10. ccsr 10 February 2020 11: 43 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        1) So we, when attacking Germany in 1940, will fight with its worst parts, the best in France

                        Who told you that the Germans could not correctly determine which units they should fight in case of real danger? The transfer of troops did not take much time - this is a fact.

                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Military science says that the attacker needs three-fold superiority of fire in order to bear losses equal to those of the defender.

                        And where would we get triple superiority over the Germans at least at the level of one front?
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Therefore, ordinals are easily created

                        This is only in theory, but in practice the enemy is not so stupid as not to monitor our troop maneuvers and take countermeasures.
                      11. Blackmokona 10 February 2020 12: 38 New
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                        Look how many tanks we had and other things, we had three times against the entire army of Germans
                      12. ccsr 10 February 2020 13: 40 New
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                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        The Germans had three times

                        This Meltiukhov thinks so. In general, if you really want to debate, now there is a discussion of intelligence actions on the eve of the war - you can give your reasons there:
                        https://topwar.ru/167648-1941-razvedka-o-korpusnyh-shtabah-protivnika.html#comment-id-10111584
              2. Octopus 9 February 2020 20: 33 New
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                Where did you dig up such nonsense?
                Stalingrad 900/1100 thousand common in favor of the Axis, the Germans 300-400 thousand common (it depends on what boundaries understand Stalingrad in time and geography). If we take only the killed and only the Germans, then in general 1:10, 60 thousand Germans, 600 thousand Soviets. Although the Romanians won on the other hand, there are no questions.
                Berlin according to the killed 1: 1 approximately, 80-100 thousand people.
              3. Blackmokona 9 February 2020 20: 54 New
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                Not all of Stalingrad, but do not confuse the Stalingrad offensive. At first we defended ourselves, and then we advanced. I took the offensive, because it was the loss of the offensive that interested us
              4. Octopus 9 February 2020 21: 20 New
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                Quote: BlackMokona
                Not all of Stalingrad, but do not confuse the Stalingrad offensive

                That is, on the one hand, you take the final part of the operation, and on the other hand, all the losses of the boiler? Oh well.
              5. Blackmokona 9 February 2020 22: 54 New
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                I take the results of this operation for both sides. Thus, it estimates how large the losses in the offensive are.
  • Vladimir_2U 5 February 2020 05: 46 New
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    In total, the "heroic paratroopers"
    But aren't they heroic? The fact that they are hostile does not diminish their courage.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Lexus 5 February 2020 17: 20 New
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      Vladimir hi
      Yes, here the Japanese worked defiantly and decisively. With microscopic chances of success.
  • Same lech 5 February 2020 05: 50 New
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    We sing fame to the fools of the brave ... the Japanese understood very well that this was a one-way flight and nevertheless went on this adventure.
    Each of us can imagine ourselves in the place of these saboteurs and feel what it means to fly nowhere ... these saboteurs certainly have great respect for the desire to fulfill a combat mission at any cost.
  • svp67 5 February 2020 06: 07 New
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    Yeah, the courage and selflessness of the Japanese soldiers must be paid tribute. But everything crosses out that all this was in vain. It was already agony and a senseless waste of the country's main resource - human
    1. ccsr 5 February 2020 12: 41 New
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      Quote: svp67
      It was already agony and a senseless waste of the country's main resource - human

      The fact that it was agony, I agree - by that time, Japan had no chance to win the war, especially in the light of the Yalta agreements.
      As for the "senselessness" of spending, here I cannot agree, if only because the delivery of arms and military personnel from the USA to the Pacific theater of operations was much more expensive for our allies than for the Japanese.
      By the way, one should not think that the units of the special forces of the Soviet Army, created at a later time, were more likely to return alive - a similar fate awaited them, and they were well aware of this. These are the realities of all modern wars, and this is taken into account by the command.
      1. Kronos 5 February 2020 13: 41 New
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        Japan didn’t win chances after losing in the battle for Midway Atoll
        1. ccsr 5 February 2020 13: 53 New
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          Quote: Kronos
          Japan didn’t win chances after losing in the battle for Midway Atoll

          The Americans in the sixties also believed that the Vietnam War did not last long, and it all ended not at all as they planned. They themselves intended to end the war with Japan by the spring of 1946, so they would have won if they won, but what would cost them without our help, the question is certainly interesting.
          1. Kronos 5 February 2020 13: 58 New
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            Um, they threw off atomic bombs that pushed the Japanese to surrender. Of course, help from the USSR accelerated the process, but it was the bombs that broke the Japanese.
            1. Krasnodar 5 February 2020 18: 38 New
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              Bombs - to a lesser extent. The task was to put the Americans at the negotiating table, inflicting heavy losses during the landing in Japan. It was supposed to stir up the negotiations with the mediation of the USSR. The Union’s entry into the war crossed out these plans - the Kwantung army didn’t get it at all, the landing of the Red Army on the islands would end extremely sadly for the imperial dynasty - and physically.
              1. However, dear 6 February 2020 03: 33 New
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                It was the atomic bombing and nothing else that led to the immediate and unconditional surrender of Japan. Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

                On the morning of August 9, the US Air Force dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki (the city where the large naval port was located, a number of shipyards for the repair of military ships, a large number of military units). On the same day, at the court of the Emperor, a meeting of the Supreme Council for War Management was opened. At it, Japanese Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki, 26th Minister of the Imperial Navy Mitsumasa Yonai and Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo advised the Emperor of Japan Hirohito to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration and declare unconditional surrender. After the closure of the bombing shelter, the Japanese Prime Minister again convened the Supreme War Control Council, this time in the form of an imperial meeting (御前 会議 з gozen kaigi), which was attended by Emperor Hirohito. It took place at midnight on August 10, in an underground bomb shelter. Emperor Hirohito agreed with the Foreign Minister, as a result of which the terms of the Potsdam Declaration were adopted. Subsequently, the Japanese Commissioner in Sweden and Switzerland notified the Anti-Hitler Coalition about this decision.
                1. Krasnodar 6 February 2020 04: 33 New
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                  I read it. Only on August 9, the Soviet Union, on which the Japanese had hoped so in mediating negotiations with the Anglo-Saxons, broke through the Japanese defense lines in Manchuria. The bombing of Hiroshima claimed less lives than the bombing of Tokyo with napalm. Nagasaki is the same story. The entry of the Soviet Union into the war meant for the emperor the following:
                  1) Americans will have less losses when landing on islands - minus the trump card in negotiations;
                  2) Which will not be - the USSR is no longer a mediator, but an enemy;
                  3) Russians are less sensitive to losses, they don’t favor monarchs (on the example of Nicolas who was struck by the Japanese city dwellers, everyone knew this), imperial power, as well as the country's integrity, will come in kirdyk.
                  1. However, dear 7 February 2020 03: 22 New
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                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    I read it. Only


                    Only the official version of the story does not suit you?

                    Yes, the USSR urgently declared war on Japan to the very eyeballs of World War II, thereby violating the non-aggression pact, which Japan did observe. Also, the USSR, taking advantage of the helpless state of an almost broken country, chopped off its territory, which even the Americans did not. That is why the Americans are now friends for a long time, and there is not even a peace treaty with Russia.
                    1. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 03: 29 New
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                      Logics. Sources. Causal relationship. )))
                      1) the USSR fulfilled its part of the contract with the Anglo-Saxons - allies at that time
                      2) Chopped off - and rightly so. If the battle near Moscow was lost, I would see how the samurai would not grab a couple of tidbits of the Far East of the USSR. )))
                      3) Americans are friends because they are the largest market for Japanese products. And so - the gadzhin to the Japanese is not a friend.
                      1. However, dear 7 February 2020 03: 36 New
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                        "Logic. Sources. Causation.))
                        1) the USSR fulfilled its part of the contract with the Anglo-Saxons - allies at that time
                        2) Chopped off - and rightly so. If the battle near Moscow was lost, I would see how the samurai would not grab a couple of tidbits of the Far East of the USSR. )))
                        3) Americans are friends because they are the largest market for Japanese products. And so - the gadjin is not a fellow to the Japanese. "

                        Only paragraph 1) - everything is true. The rest are solid errors in the logic. The Americans were wiser and more far-sighted.
                      2. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 03: 45 New
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                        Well, where are the mistakes?
                        Americans stupidly occupied Japan - wiser, farsighted, pious - this is the third thing))
                      3. However, dear 7 February 2020 03: 51 New
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                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Well, where are the mistakes?
                        Americans stupidly occupied Japan - wiser, farsighted, pious - this is the third thing))


                        No mistakes. Earthlings have grown. :) And that was not enough. :)) Only somehow these occupied Japanese people suspiciously well live, much better than the winners. :)))
                      4. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 03: 54 New
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                        Germans live better
                        South Koreans live better
                        Finns live better
                        So what? )))
                        What does this have to do with Japan’s nuclear bombing as the main reason for surrender?
                      5. However, dear 7 February 2020 03: 58 New
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                        About the "occupation" of Japan by America, you started.
                      6. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 11 New
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                        So I'm not saying that this is bad laughing
                      7. However, dear 7 February 2020 04: 13 New
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                        Moreover, this was not laughing
                      8. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 14 New
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                        How was it not? The Americans entered the army there, there was occupation power, etc.
                      9. However, dear 7 February 2020 04: 22 New
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                        And there was a peace treaty in 1951, after which the occupation ended. But the USSR is not in the peace treaty, not signed.
                      10. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 27 New
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                        That's right, the bases were left in Okinawa, so the USSR did not ratify this treaty
                      11. However, dear 7 February 2020 04: 30 New
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                        But basically, the reason for not signing was the same Kuril Islands.

                        "At the conference, Gromyko tried to obtain official recognition of the USSR sovereignty over the southern Kuril Islands from the US and Great Britain as part of the Habomai ridge, the Shikotan, Kunashir and Iturup islands, which were part of the territory of Japan before World War II. Gromyko insisted on relevant amendments to the draft treaty, however they were rejected by the delegations of the United States and Great Britain and were not included in the final text of the treaty. For this and several other reasons, the Soviet delegation refused to sign the treaty, as a result of which the final the ownership of South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands was not identified under the San Francisco Treaty. "
                      12. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 31 New
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                        This, too - the Cold War was in full swing))
                      13. However, dear 7 February 2020 04: 37 New
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                        Oh yeah. And she, too, passed, like the 2nd World War. But the argument for the Kuril Islands remained. :)
                      14. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 39 New
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                        Well?
                        Israel has a dispute over the Golan
                        UK - for the Falklands
                        Etc.
                      15. However, dear 7 February 2020 04: 47 New
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                        Israel and the Golan are both Russia and Koenigsberg. With a stretch. For Israel to compare with huge Russia is nonsense. Although the Americans did not chop off the Germans either. And they got Germany as a friend. The USSR made mistakes when it seized territories from its neighbors. The Americans are great in this regard.
                      16. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 04: 57 New
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                        Well, how do you imagine the chopping off of German territory by the Americans? )))
                        And in Mexico, the States didn’t chop off anything? laughing
                      17. However, dear 7 February 2020 05: 05 New
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                        And what prevented the Americans from doing with the British in West Germany some “Old New World”? :))) About Mexico - well, this is like a question: did Russia chop off Yakut, Tuva, Chukchi and others? :)))) Answer: no. For neither Meks, nor Chukchi with Yakuts make claims. :)))
                      18. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 05: 08 New
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                        What got in the way? GDR for example laughing Mexicans - they used to be indignant before - now Trump is building a second wall of shame)) After Yehuda and Shomron - only the Gates didn’t climb
                      19. However, dear 7 February 2020 05: 16 New
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                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        What got in the way? GDR for example


                        No, the GDR would not hurt. They had no such plans at all. They wanted to attract economically and attracted.

                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Mexicans - used to be outraged before


                        So, while Yermak and the peoples of Siberia and the Far East, like him and their gangs, conquered, taxed the yasak, forced them to pay tribute to the Russian tsar, they were also very unhappy. then they got used to it. :)))
                      20. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 05: 20 New
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                        No, the GDR would not hurt. They had no such plans at all. They wanted to attract economically and attracted.
                        Nobody in Germany wanted to attract economically - the Cold War just loomed and, in contrast to the GDR, they were given money according to the Marshall plan - as the next ally in Europe. Before that, they generally wanted to divide Germany into volosts under foreign control, forbidding them to have their own industry. Make it an agrarian country.
                        So, while Yermak and the peoples of Siberia and the Far East, like him and their gangs, conquered, taxed the yasak, forced them to pay tribute to the Russian tsar, they were also very unhappy. then they got used to it. :)))
                        It was. This proves that border growth due to neighboring territories is natural.
                      21. However, dear 7 February 2020 05: 31 New
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                        The Marshall Plan has helped 18 countries in Europe, including Germany.

                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        This proves that border growth due to neighboring territories is natural.


                        This says only one thing: if there are no complaints, then everything can come down.
                      22. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 05: 32 New
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                        That's right - why did he give it to Germany? The peoples of other European countries were not enthusiastic about this - obviously)).
                      23. However, dear 7 February 2020 05: 33 New
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                        To have a competitive ally against the USSR.
                      24. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 05: 36 New
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                        Quince, I'm a habibi. Therefore - there was no economic attraction there)).
                      25. Mordvin 3 7 February 2020 05: 50 New
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                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Therefore - there was no economic attraction there

                        It was, it was ... The Americans traded there with might and main. One ampoule of poison cost 50 thousand bucks.
                      26. However, dear 7 February 2020 05: 51 New
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                        It is an economic attraction. Economic development, high standard of living. This is what makes reliable allies. The alternative was on the other side of the barricades: the Soviet tanks, poverty and faith in a fairy tale about communism.
                      27. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 05: 58 New
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                        laughing
                        Yes, no one at that time was interested in the standard of living of Europeans - they were interested in politics, how to ensure sales markets, as part of the confrontation with the USSR in the Cold War. In the first part, political, the States did everything beautifully - they gave loans, secured a place for themselves in interesting areas of the economy of these countries, etc. In the second part - lohanulsya. Because themselves have become a market for German and Japanese products since the early 70's.
                      28. However, dear 7 February 2020 06: 04 New
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                        The Marshall Plan began to be implemented on April 4, 1948, when the US Congress passed the Law on Economic Cooperation, which provided for a four-year program of economic assistance to Europe. The total allocation under the Marshall Plan (from April 4, 1948 to December 1951) amounted to about 13 billion [P 1]. dollars, with the main share in the UK (2,8 billion), France (2,5 billion), Italy (1,3 billion), West Germany (1,3 billion), the Netherlands (1 billion). In this case, the Americans, as a precondition for the provision of assistance, demanded the removal of the Communists from the governments of the countries that signed the agreement [3]. By 1948, no government in Western Europe had communists.
                        Later, the Marshall Plan was also applied to Japan and some other countries of East Asia.
                      29. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 06: 09 New
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                        I know )). Moreover, they most effectively used it in Germany. And pay attention to the condition about the communists - i.e. politics in its purest form.
                      30. However, dear 7 February 2020 06: 12 New
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                        They were afraid of the Communists. No doubt about it. fellow
                      31. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 06: 19 New
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                        Right.
                        For two reasons.
                        1) The popularity of the USSR in the States - respectively - of the Communists.
                        2) The presence of the USSR in Europe, threatening American markets, therefore - the US economy.
                        The first was dealt with by McCarthyism, and the second by Marshall’s plan. But, in the end, they themselves became the market for the Germans, Japanese, etc.,
                      32. However, dear 7 February 2020 06: 35 New
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                        The bulk of the Communists lives and lives in one and a half billion China. But Communism has lost popularity in the world. You could say the Americans won. Although there are trade wars. But a showdown on who sells to whom more and what duties on goods are not real wars, agree.
                      33. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 06: 42 New
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                        In the Cold War, the Americans won, of course. Communism in the world has really lost its popularity, in China it is ... mmm ... nominal-managerial. Trade wars - from the very beginning I wrote that the policy of the United States is a war for markets - and they do not care - cold or hot (except nuclear, of course) and neither Japan nor Germany should be pulled to a beautiful standard of living, such as attract economically, etc. none of the amers was about to! )))
                      34. However, dear 7 February 2020 06: 50 New
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                        When America invests for the economic development of Germany and Japan, this is an economic attraction on its side. So this was perceived by the former adversaries of the Second World War, and it worked.
                      35. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 06: 56 New
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                        This is the preservation of sales markets in the framework of the struggle against communist expansion - both by the Germans and the Japanese, and this is how it was perceived - they are not suckers! )). And the USSR’s economic mistakes in the GDR and Czechoslovakia worked mainly — more than Amer’s help. Regarding Japan, they perceive this more as compensation for a country smashed into dust, and they have claims against the Russian Federation as “victims” of WWII, in which they themselves were ghouls cleaner than the Nazis.
                      36. However, dear 7 February 2020 07: 09 New
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                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        But the economic failures of the USSR worked mainly


                        “And the USSR’s economic failures worked mainly” - But the USSR did not have any economic achievements aimed at people. The country was poor. With communist fanatics at the head. She had nothing to attract even defeated opponents. They lived better in the GDR.
                  2. However, dear 7 February 2020 06: 56 New
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                    "US policy is a war for markets" - no, US policy is much more diverse than just markets. This is still a war for brains, for technology, for resources, for everything you need for leadership in any field.
                  3. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 06: 58 New
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                    Those. - for sales markets)).
                    For providing their own labor market with work, etc. All of the above is correct, but it serves the purpose I mentioned!
                  4. However, dear 7 February 2020 07: 03 New
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                    No! The market is only one side of the trade. Another is what a country can supply to this market. Raw or iPhone? The most expensive product is brains and technology.
                  5. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 15: 02 New
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                    That's right - to get profit from markets, you need a quality product!
            2. Octopus 7 February 2020 07: 50 New
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              Quote: Krasnodar
              Communism in the world has really lost popularity

              Unfortunately not.

              When the empire was no more evil, those wishing to take and divide in the West intensified sharply. The scarecrow of the USSR by the very fact of its presence prevented them. The remaining Kims and Castro are perceived much more benevolently, like a kind of safari park. Some Di Blasio is directly threatening to make NY health care like in Cuba, and he is not hanged on the lamppost.
              Bulgakov was wrong: it was not Sharikov, but Professor Preobrazhensky, who urged to take away and divide. The opposition leader Her Majesty Corbin is a direct socialist, the leader of the current democratic primaries is a socialist, Warren is a socialist, Merkel is a member of the Komsomol from the family of a red informer, a commmented priest. The whole discourse of tolerance, inclusiveness, the fight against climate change is deeply left.
            3. Krasnodar 7 February 2020 15: 03 New
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              This is the pampering of practicing capitalists))
    2. ccsr 7 February 2020 13: 14 New
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      Quote: However, dear
      They were afraid of the Communists. No doubt about it.

      But why weren’t they afraid of the Chinese Communists, pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into their economy? Maybe they were not afraid of the Communists, but they were afraid to miss the benefit?
    3. However, dear 7 February 2020 23: 17 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      But why weren’t they afraid of the Chinese Communists, pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into their economy?


      The answer is simple. Because the Chinese commies did not pose a threat then, like the Soviet ones, with their idea of ​​a world revolution, backed up by hundreds of divisions and thousands of tanks and planes.
    4. ccsr 8 February 2020 11: 02 New
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      Quote: However, dear
      The answer is simple. Because the Chinese commies did not pose a threat then, like the Soviet ones, with their idea of ​​a world revolution,

      The answer is simple and incorrect - the communist ideas that have seized the masses of people themselves constitute a threat to capitalism.
  • gsev 7 February 2020 23: 29 New
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    Quote: However, dear
    and Russia didn’t chop off at Yakut, Tuva, Chukchi and others? :)))) Answer: no. For neither Meks nor Chukchi with Yakuts claims

    In Russia, indigenous peoples have the opportunity to preserve and develop culture and their national identity. For example, the phenomenon of the Yakut cinema. In the United States, Native American peoples were supplanted on a reservation — almost to concentration camps.
  • However, dear 8 February 2020 01: 20 New
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    Quote: gsev
    In the United States, Native American peoples were supplanted on a reservation — almost to concentration camps.


    This is you out of ignorance. There is no registration in the USA, and any Indian and anyone can live anywhere in America. The most “sloppy” live on Indian reservations: alcoholics, drug addicts, and other rogues. They live there on full state security and quite voluntarily. The rest have long since disappeared throughout America. But even now, when applying for a job, the category “native American” is gaining an advantage over white Americans. Also, upon admission to universities and upon receipt of various grants. The benefits of being an Indian in America is like being a veteran. By the way, being black is almost the same.
  • Octopus 8 February 2020 11: 22 New
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    Quote: However, dear
    But even now, when applying for a job, the category “native American” is gaining an advantage over white Americans.

    Famous senator Elizabeth "Pocahontas" Warren is trying on this basis to enter the White House with priority over white cisheder men)))
  • Octopus 8 February 2020 11: 20 New
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    Quote: gsev
    Native American peoples are supplanted in the reservation, practically in concentration camps.

    )))
  • sevryuk 12 February 2020 00: 06 New
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    I mean, is it worth it to attack someone and lose the war? Hmm ... Barin knows a lot about perversions!
  • ccsr 7 February 2020 13: 10 New
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    Quote: However, dear
    That is why the Americans are now friends for a long time, and there is not even a peace treaty with Russia.

    In vain you suffer so much from this - it is not so important for modern Russia whether there will be such an agreement or not, but the fact that our Kuril Islands is forever and most important, they are very important to us, like the returned part of Sakhalin. Your lying "compassion" reminds me of the cry of the cat Basilio, if Pinocchio had thrown him - but the story was different. But the fact that Stalin solved the problem of the Far East, we are all grateful to him for this - even though the Japanese do all the hara-kiri for themselves, they will never get these territories.
    1. However, dear 7 February 2020 23: 05 New
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      Who told you that I suffer? Not a drop. Just a statement of fact. When it was possible to cheaply get an ally or allies, the USSR stupidly robbed its neighbors of its territory and received enemies for many decades. Something similar can be seen in modern Russia.
    2. ccsr 8 February 2020 10: 59 New
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      Quote: However, dear
      The USSR stupidly robbed its neighbors of its territory and received enemies for many decades.

      Tell this to the Americans - they are directly bursting into tears because they have grabbed the best states from Mexico, and have enemies all over the world.
      Quote: However, dear
      Something similar can be seen in modern Russia.

      And very well - you need to regain what you lost in the early nineties. And leave your "cry of Yaroslavna" for the inexperienced - you in vain think that nobody here can understand your motives.
    3. Octopus 8 February 2020 11: 28 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      And very well - you need to regain what you lost in the early nineties.

      You are absolutely right. Peaceful coexistence of post-Soviet countries with Russia is impossible. Even the Old Man turned out to be a bulbofascist.
    4. However, dear 8 February 2020 19: 40 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      Tell this to the Americans - they are directly bursting into tears because they have grabbed the best states from Mexico, and have enemies all over the world.

      Quote: ccsr
      And very well - you need to regain what you lost in the early nineties. And leave your "cry of Yaroslavna" for the inexperienced - you in vain think that nobody here can understand your motives.


      Yes, I have no ulterior motives. Now I will explain more accessible. Rulers must understand when it is possible to take land and there will be nothing for it, and when there will be a conflict for many decades. Mexico will not present Mexico to California, nor will anyone present Russia to Buryatia, Chukotka, Yakutia. This is the "right" land taken. And for the "wrong" land taken - you yourself know examples. If about Japan, the government should have understood that the Japanese are not Chukchi, there will be complaints. And so it turned out. Not atomic bombs are remembered, but lost islands, 70+ years already. By the way, in recent history, America has not wrested the earth from anyone, and yet, yes, they have a lot of friends and allies in the world, which can not be said about Russia. hi
    5. ccsr 9 February 2020 11: 42 New
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      Quote: However, dear
      By the way, in recent history, America has not squeezed the earth from anyone,

      The USSR also regained what belonged to it earlier in the war. So what claims to Russia may be at the present time?
      Quote: However, dear
      Yes, they have many friends and allies in the world, which can not be said about Russia.

      "In p ... with friends - the slogan of Trotsky" - they studied this situation in the MLF, but you probably didn’t find it, but it had a deep meaning ....
    6. However, dear 9 February 2020 20: 31 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      The USSR also regained what belonged to it earlier in the war. So what claims to Russia may be at the present time?


      And if anyone has a claim to Russia, then they will disappear. Russia is a military superpower. But the benefit from a more subtle policy would be greater than from some microscopic plots of land, which for ugh Russia - pah, nothing. This is my personal opinion.
    7. ccsr 10 February 2020 11: 51 New
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      Quote: However, dear
      And if anyone has a claim to Russia, then they will disappear.

      It `s naturally.
      Quote: However, dear
      But the benefit from a more subtle policy would be greater than from some microscopic plots of land, which for ugh Russia - pah, nothing.

      There is no thin policy now - there is our brute force, as indeed before, and from this we must build relations with all countries, because flirting with the pygmies did not lead to anything good.
      Quote: However, dear
      Russia is a military superpower.

      And let the whole world go to a well-known address on the basis of this. We must always pursue such a policy - this is the key to our survival.
  • ccsr 5 February 2020 19: 02 New
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    Quote: Kronos
    but it was the bombs that broke the Japanese

    The bombing did not make much impression on the Japanese - they did not even collect an urgent meeting of the Council after it:
    9 August At an emergency meeting of the Supreme Council for War Management, Japanese Prime Minister Suzuki said [16]:
    The entry into the war of the Soviet Union this morning puts us finally in a hopeless situation and makes it impossible to continue the war.

    General MacArthur, Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces in the Pacific, believed that “Victory over Japan can only be guaranteed if the Japanese ground forces are defeated” [17]. US Secretary of State E. Stettinius stated the following [17]:
    On the eve of the Crimean Conference, the chiefs of American staffs convinced Roosevelt that Japan could capitulate only in 1947 or later, and defeating it could cost America a million soldiers.
    1. Octopus 6 February 2020 00: 00 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      Victory over Japan can only be guaranteed if Japanese ground forces are defeated.

      Therefore, continued MacArthur, more resources to me, less to the fleet.
      Quote: ccsr
      the chiefs of American staffs convinced Roosevelt that Japan could capitulate only in 1947 or later, and defeating it could cost America a million soldiers.

      First, Mr. Stettinius very nicely translates arrows into Marshall for his own jambs. It was the State Department that should have informed Roosevelt that the question of surrender was at that time the main one for the Japanese government.
      Secondly, the story of a million soldiers. After the war, it was not possible to establish who launched this mess. It seems that the American warriors in their game with the politicians “ask for more - get as much as you need” managed to lose a hell of a lot. Including the lives of American soldiers. Not in the 45th, later.
      1. ccsr 6 February 2020 18: 01 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        First, Mr. Stettinius very nicely translates arrows into Marshall for his own jambs.

        I think that their internal problems are no longer interesting for us, since we have pledged to enter the war with Japan and fulfilled our obligations.
        Quote: Octopus
        Secondly, the story of a million soldiers. After the war, it was not possible to establish who launched this mess.

        I don’t know about the crap, but the fact that the Japanese soldiers were hiding for another twenty years after the war in the jungle suggests that on their territory they could wage a guerrilla war with the Americans for a long time - as the Vietnamese who later achieved victory over the United States did.
        1. Octopus 6 February 2020 19: 27 New
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          Quote: ccsr
          since we pledged to go to war with Japan and fulfilled our obligations.

          It was originally a crazy idea that cost the Americans of China. Those of them who retained sanity understood this.
          Quote: ccsr
          later did the Vietnamese, who achieved victory over the United States.

          The victory over the USA, I remind you, was that the Americans said "marry it all with a horse" and left. The Vietnamese ate grass for 30 years, like the North Koreans, and then introduced capitalism back with blackjack and masseuses.

          However, I remind you that only the most obvious hmm, patriots, wanted such a fate for their country. Neither the prime minister nor the emperor were among them.
          1. ccsr 7 February 2020 12: 51 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            It was originally a crazy idea that cost the Americans of China. Those of them who retained sanity understood this.

            This is a moot point, because in Yalta, the results of nuclear tests were not yet known, but they could fail. That's why the Americans laid straws ...
            Quote: Octopus
            The victory over the USA, I remind you, was that the Americans said "marry it all with a horse" and left.

            Yeah, figs there - for some reason, they still don’t say this in Iraq and Afghanistan, since foreign countries are so "easy" to leave.
            Quote: Octopus
            However, I remind you that only the most obvious hmm, patriots, wanted such a fate for their country. Neither the prime minister nor the emperor were among them.

            I can’t judge this, if only because our knowledge of that period of Japanese history is very superficial, and they are interpreted in the light of the defeat of Japan, and as it was, even inexperienced Japanese people hardly know for sure. Judging by the fact that even the Hitler Youth fought against us, in Japan the partisan movement could become much more powerful than in Germany, based on their ideas about loyalty to the emperor.
    2. However, dear 6 February 2020 03: 40 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      The bombing did not make much impression on the Japanese - they did not even collect an urgent meeting of the Council after it


      There is other information from Wikipedia.
      On the morning of August 9, the US Air Force dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki (the city where the large naval port was located, a number of shipyards for the repair of military ships, a large number of military units). On the same day, at the court of the Emperor, a meeting of the Supreme Council for War Management was opened. At it, Japanese Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki, 26th Minister of the Imperial Navy Mitsumasa Yonai and Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo advised the Emperor of Japan Hirohito to accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration and declare unconditional surrender. After the closure of the bombing shelter, the Japanese Prime Minister again convened the Supreme War Control Council, this time in the form of an imperial meeting (御前 会議 з gozen kaigi), which was attended by Emperor Hirohito. It took place at midnight on August 10, in an underground bomb shelter. Emperor Hirohito agreed with the Foreign Minister, as a result of which the terms of the Potsdam Declaration were adopted. Subsequently, the Japanese Commissioner in Sweden and Switzerland notified the Anti-Hitler Coalition about this decision.
      1. Reklastik 9 February 2020 07: 38 New
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        Reading Pedivikia is an occasion to think and figure out if what is written there is true, especially when it comes to historical facts in particular and history in general ...
        1. However, dear 10 February 2020 00: 26 New
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          Quote: Reklastik
          Reading Pedivikia is an occasion to think and figure out if what is written there is true, especially when it comes to historical facts in particular and history in general ...


          Suggest an alternative trustworthy source.
  • Alexey RA 5 February 2020 19: 57 New
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    Quote: ccsr
    The Americans in the sixties also believed that the Vietnam War did not last long, and it all ended not at all as they planned.

    Vietnam had a reliable rear in the person of the USSR. And Japan could only rely on herself.
    The loss of the four AB 1st and 2nd SAWs at Midway at once meant only one thing for Japan: until 1945, it had only two Cranes and Taiho. And that’s it. There will not be an equivalent replacement for the lost four during this period. And despite the fact that the crews of the 1st and 2nd SAA air groups for the most part survived, they will simply have nowhere to fly from.
    If the enemy were in the same situation, then Japan would still have a sense of fluttering. But the trouble is that the Americans started a year earlier and built half a year faster. As a result, the United States has exactly the ribbon of 1942-1943. was adopted by the fleet of the leading Essex. Six months later, he was recognized as combat ready and sent train on cats. And then every 2-3 months the fleet received a new average AB. Plus light Independence.
    So, by the time the new medium-sized Japanese aircraft reached combat readiness, a steam skating rink of the TF.38 / 58 high-speed aircraft carrier from 12-15 AB was rolling around the Pacific Ocean for a long time.
    Quote: ccsr
    They themselves intended to end the war with Japan by the spring of 1946, so that they would have won, but at what cost they could have done without our help, the question is certainly interesting.

    Three hundred thousand irrevocations is what the "field" specialists counted. A further increase in estimated losses is due to the fact that the numbers of losses began to be used for political purposes, including as an argument in the budget dispute.
    1. ccsr 5 February 2020 20: 31 New
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      Quote: Alexey RA
      Vietnam had a reliable rear in the person of the USSR. And Japan could only rely on herself.

      Vietnam did not have such an economic base as Japan had on the eve of the war with the United States. But they had a valuable combat experience - a war with the French, which is why they piled on only the Americans, but also the Chinese. Although of course it is foolish to deny our help - without it they would have had to fight much longer.
  • Sergey Sfiedu 5 February 2020 20: 45 New
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    "The Americans in the sixties also believed that the Vietnam War would not last long" - however, they write that the Yankees almost immediately realized that they had climbed the wrong way. But withdrawing troops is much more difficult than deploying.
    1. Kronos 6 February 2020 16: 54 New
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      In military terms, they did not lose, but in terms of popularity and the attitude of society to the war at home, yes
    2. Fat
      Fat 6 February 2020 17: 26 New
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      [/ quote] [quote = Sergey Sfyedu] "The Americans in the sixties also believed that the Vietnam War would not last long" - however, they write that the Yankees almost immediately realized that they had climbed the wrong way. But withdrawing troops is much more difficult than deploying.

      No, it's not true. It is very difficult to bring troops into battle, this is a serious job, but here is not to envisage a “reverse embarkation”. A miscalculation of non-military specialists. Politicians did not even foresee this. They did not want to reckon with total resistance ...
  • Fat
    Fat 6 February 2020 16: 34 New
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    Quote: Kronos
    Japan didn’t win chances after losing in the battle for Midway Atoll

    Japan has not had a chance since Pearl Harbor itself. There was a task: to organize a defensive perimeter on the designation of the borders and conclude a world worthy of the emperor. Force the US to abandon the embargo.
    Yamamoto knew for sure that if you didn’t get stronger at 43, all the advantage would be covered. By the first half of 1942, the Americans had to make tremendous efforts to overcome the shortcomings of their intelligence and warning systems. They had excellent services there and at 40. Congressional bureaucrats made them powerless ...
    1. Kronos 6 February 2020 16: 55 New
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      No Japanese codes cracked even before Pearl Harber
      1. Fat
        Fat 6 February 2020 17: 03 New
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        Quote: Kronos
        No Japanese codes cracked even before Pearl Harber

        Well yes, both purple and purple
        diplomatic codes from 38 to 40 of the last century, there was only 20-40 people in the subject, the wild mess in the US intelligence, even after the organization of special services continued.
  • Doliva63 5 February 2020 20: 42 New
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    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: svp67
    It was already agony and a senseless waste of the country's main resource - human

    The fact that it was agony, I agree - by that time, Japan had no chance to win the war, especially in the light of the Yalta agreements.
    As for the "senselessness" of spending, here I cannot agree, if only because the delivery of arms and military personnel from the USA to the Pacific theater of operations was much more expensive for our allies than for the Japanese.
    By the way, one should not think that the units of the special forces of the Soviet Army, created at a later time, were more likely to return alive - a similar fate awaited them, and they were well aware of this. These are the realities of all modern wars, and this is taken into account by the command.

    About special forces - it all depended on the task, training and support. The Japanese didn’t “suffer” from this, so the comparison is incorrect.
    1. ccsr 5 February 2020 20: 50 New
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      Quote: Doliva63
      About special forces - it all depended on the task, training and support.

      And from the capabilities of the enemy, too, and this played a decisive role.

      Quote: Doliva63
      The Japanese didn’t “suffer” from this, so the comparison is incorrect.

      In my opinion, they decided this in a hurry, which is why they did not succeed.
      As for the GENERAL task, it is almost the same for all subversive units, only goals and execution are different.
      1. Doliva63 5 February 2020 21: 06 New
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        Quote: ccsr
        Quote: Doliva63
        About special forces - it all depended on the task, training and support.

        And from the capabilities of the enemy, too, and this played a decisive role.

        Quote: Doliva63
        The Japanese didn’t “suffer” from this, so the comparison is incorrect.

        In my opinion, they decided this in a hurry, which is why they did not succeed.
        As for the GENERAL task, it is almost the same for all subversive units, only goals and execution are different.

        “Enemy capabilities” in a specific area of ​​reconnaissance are taken into account when defining tasks, manning, arming, and organizing the support of the group. Or did it seem to me?
        It’s funny to remind you that there have never been any sabotage units in the USSR Armed Forces. There was special intelligence, but no saboteurs. laughing
        1. ccsr 6 February 2020 17: 56 New
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          Quote: Doliva63
          Or did it seem to me?

          This is not the point, but the fact that long-distance delivery of groups through the air corridor is difficult to hide, which means that a serious adversary can quickly understand where the landing took place, and accordingly use their units to destroy reconnaissance groups. Well, of course, they know our regular means of communication, which is why they will track any broadcast using their radio intelligence tools. So, not everything is so simple in the pre-war period.
          Quote: Doliva63
          There was special intelligence, but no saboteurs.

          The special weapons unit in the SPN brigade was just designed to undermine wearable backpack nuclear charges. And the engineering company in the SPN brigade just specialized in sabotage, so the name "reconnaissance and sabotage group" (RDG) just suggests that the priorities in the group can be changed.
          1. Doliva63 6 February 2020 20: 14 New
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            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: Doliva63
            Or did it seem to me?

            This is not the point, but the fact that long-distance delivery of groups through the air corridor is difficult to hide, which means that a serious adversary can quickly understand where the landing took place, and accordingly use their units to destroy reconnaissance groups. Well, of course, they know our regular means of communication, which is why they will track any broadcast using their radio intelligence tools. So, not everything is so simple in the pre-war period.
            Quote: Doliva63
            There was special intelligence, but no saboteurs.

            The special weapons unit in the SPN brigade was just designed to undermine wearable backpack nuclear charges. And the engineering company in the SPN brigade just specialized in sabotage, so the name "reconnaissance and sabotage group" (RDG) just suggests that the priorities in the group can be changed.

            I did not serve in the brigade, but they called me to the special mine company in Neutimmen. Question studied and refused. I went to the brigade, was convinced of the correctness of the decision. Remained a scout. And the delivery of groups over long distances is carried out in advance and not at all by the method of landing. And about sabotage - the regimental intelligence also has such a task, but there are no sabotage groups there either. I recommend you read the Fundamentals of the combat use of reconnaissance units and units of the USSR Armed Forces, everything is stated there.
            1. ccsr 7 February 2020 13: 03 New
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              Quote: Doliva63
              I recommend you read the Fundamentals of the combat use of reconnaissance units and units of the USSR Armed Forces, everything is stated there.

              I was in Neu Timman for a total of several months on business trips until the conclusion, so I am aware of many things that happened there. Therefore, the ideas were preserved, because I was there at all the exercises and tests at that time.
              1. Doliva63 7 February 2020 17: 06 New
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                Quote: ccsr
                Quote: Doliva63
                I recommend you read the Fundamentals of the combat use of reconnaissance units and units of the USSR Armed Forces, everything is stated there.

                I was in Neu Timman for a total of several months on business trips until the conclusion, so I am aware of many things that happened there. Therefore, the ideas were preserved, because I was there at all the exercises and tests at that time.

                Neutimen, like, cohesively spelled, no? winked
                1. ccsr 7 February 2020 19: 12 New
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                  Quote: Doliva63
                  Neutimen, like, cohesively spelled, no?

                  On our maps it was designated as Neu-Tymen.
                  1. ccsr 7 February 2020 19: 55 New
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                    Quote: ccsr
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    Neutimen, like, cohesively spelled, no?

                    On our maps it was designated as Neu-Tymen.

                    Here is how it was indicated on the maps GS
                  2. Doliva63 8 February 2020 18: 08 New
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                    Quote: ccsr
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    Neutimen, like, cohesively spelled, no?

                    On our maps it was designated as Neu-Tymen.

                    Here is how it was indicated on the maps GS

                    Maybe. That was a long time ago. drinks
                  3. ccsr 8 February 2020 18: 39 New
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                    Quote: Doliva63
                    Maybe. That was a long time ago.

                    The fact is that the prefix "Noah" means "New" and part of the settlements with this prefix were written together, and part through a hyphen. Many years passed, much was forgotten, but the name that was written separately remained in my memory.
                  4. Doliva63 8 February 2020 19: 16 New
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                    Quote: ccsr
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    Maybe. That was a long time ago.

                    The fact is that the prefix "Noah" means "New" and part of the settlements with this prefix were written together, and part through a hyphen. Many years passed, much was forgotten, but the name that was written separately remained in my memory.

                    Well, I still remember what neu and neues mean in theirs. I’ve been a “translator” there. laughing But for some reason I was sure that it was written together. Yes, however, what's the difference? I remember Shanghai, which was actually called Schönehöhe, or Maningen instead of Meiningen. laughing Come on, have you seen this too? And in a village at the post office, the telephone operator mistook my 12 for 2, until I wrote the number on a piece of paper laughing although a teacher from Arnstadt praised my German. In general, life in the GSVG was interesting. I remember that at the station in Potsdam, Germans in red berets sat down at the next table, ordered beer. When they brought the beer, one of them came up to us (we were in uniform) and asked if we would mind if they let a glass go? We were surprised - what do we have to do with it? He points to our parachutist-instructor badges and says - we respect you very much and do not want to cause inconvenience. Literally I do not remember, of course, but somehow. Funny of course. laughing drinks
                  5. ccsr 9 February 2020 11: 36 New
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                    Quote: Doliva63
                    I remember that at the station in Potsdam, Germans in red berets sat down at the next table, ordered beer.

                    I liked to take fried sausages for beer at the bus station in Potsdam - there were the best in the entire GDR. I have visited Potsdam more than once - a good and comfortable city.
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    He points to our parachutist-instructor badges and says - we respect you very much and do not want to cause inconvenience.

                    We met with colleagues from the same structure regularly, and I knew the one who led this direction with them. Even the photograph was preserved somewhere from that time, it was an interesting time.
                    By the way, they all studied with us, except for their political officer, so they spoke pretty well in Russian without translators, although we also had them.
  • Fat
    Fat 6 February 2020 17: 36 New
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    Quote: Doliva63
    About special forces - it all depended on the task, training and support. The Japanese didn’t “suffer” from this, so the comparison is incorrect.

    Teixingtai units in the army began to be formed at the beginning of 43 in the Kwantung Army, different from even SAS training. They took the best and taught.
    The Okinawan episode carried out in the article is a particular one. It was the japas who taught ... Yes, they did not suffer ... A diamond breaks once. (WITH)
    You are absolutely right.
    1. Doliva63 7 February 2020 17: 20 New
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      Quote: Thick
      Quote: Doliva63
      About special forces - it all depended on the task, training and support. The Japanese didn’t “suffer” from this, so the comparison is incorrect.

      Teixingtai units in the army began to be formed at the beginning of 43 in the Kwantung Army, different from even SAS training. They took the best and taught.
      The Okinawan episode carried out in the article is a particular one. It was the japas who taught ... Yes, they did not suffer ... A diamond breaks once. (WITH)
      You are absolutely right.

      Today I unearthed a picture of my father in Japanese uniform, taken from their scout. Signed - Fowsin, 1945. Two reconnaissance groups encountered, ours turned out to be more experienced, the war did not go in vain. When I served, materials generalizing even that experience were secret. So then they themselves could teach japs. Another thing, as ordered later.
      1. Fat
        Fat 7 February 2020 18: 23 New
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        My father began his service in 5vdk, in hell, at the school of junior commanders. About Hell, it’s t9 ... Dear, dolivas 63. I can’t, there is no reliable information.
        But I clearly know the struggle of the USA against the Empire. This is just a war for resources. Wild and inexorable. Some forces in the USA to the Washington Agreement have something to designate .... But they are afraid they continued in the Atlantic from Britain ....
      2. Fat
        Fat 7 February 2020 19: 09 New
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        Well, it’s really true, the Union tapped the japs ​​on the hill; the descendants of the Meiji revolutions heard about the north specifically.
  • karabass 6 February 2020 20: 14 New
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    No, the special forces are not sending them to certain death, even if acceptable losses are forecasted, they still are not sending! If losses are predicted, motorized rifles are sent, and then if you really need to!
    1. Fat
      Fat 7 February 2020 19: 32 New
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      Quote: karabass
      No, the special forces are not sending them to certain death, even if acceptable losses are forecasted, they still are not sending! If losses are predicted, motorized rifles are sent, and then if you really need to!

      Tell this crap to my father, he started at the 5th VDK, the whole march from 39 gmsd from the day ... of the Red October Plant in that very Stalingrad. . . I ask you not to declare the unverified as something cool ...
      Wait, some without a name believe that the battle of Rzhevoy and the Stalingrad defense are different.
      This, at least, a mistake already then could the Red Army withstand the Wehrmacht.
    2. Doliva63 8 February 2020 18: 05 New
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      Quote: karabass
      No, the special forces are not sending them to certain death, even if acceptable losses are forecasted, they still are not sending! If losses are predicted, motorized rifles are sent, and then if you really need to!

      Spetsnaz, of course, can be "sent" to a thread like an infantry, which has happened quite often recently, but infantry instead of Special Forces is not realistic at all. drinks
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sandy 5 February 2020 06: 12 New
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    It is interesting how the surviving paratrooper got to his from the island of Okinawa?
    1. tlauicol 5 February 2020 06: 16 New
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      Quote: Sandy
      It is interesting how the surviving paratrooper got to his from the island of Okinawa?

      on foot. another month of fighting
      1. Sandy 5 February 2020 07: 40 New
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        on foot. another month of fighting
        - Yes, I agree, the fighting in Okinawa ended on June 23.06.1945, XNUMX.
  • Nikolaevich I 5 February 2020 06: 46 New
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    Can the Japanese be compared with the "ants"? And Japanese civilization, with the "anthill"? Soviet people (and "responsible persons" ...) looked closely at Japanese prisoners of war in the camps ... They noted the high discipline of the Japanese, the desire to observe national customs (traditions) even in conditions that were not entirely favorable for this, the high quality of the work performed .. Despite the defeat of the Japanese army, Japanese soldiers obediently obeyed their officers. Military experts from different countries noted the steadfastness and courage of Japanese soldiers in battle, their willingness to go and to sacrifice themselves. if necessary, as well as the ability. readiness to endure the hardships and deprivations of military life. Does this to some extent resemble the behavior of the "ants" and the organization of the "ant hill"? "Ant" cannot "work" poorly (!) ... or "super excellent" ...; he acts ("works") as it is laid in him! In the event of a threat to the "ant hill", the life of the "individuals" does not matter ... the life of the conglomeration as a whole matters! In various conditions, the ant "community" seeks to fulfill its duty, its responsibilities. And now the American "civilization of individuals" confronts the Japanese "ant community"! The first clash "American civilization" won! Actually, it was not “the civilization of individuals” that won, but the more advanced technological civilization, and, quite enough, numerous ...! (well. how can ants resist ... resist an anthill lit by a lit lighter?) But, if the conditions of existence of human civilization change on earth? For example, in the event of a "thermonuclear war" or a collision of our planet with an asteroid? When will high technology die,? Who will be the winners? American "civilization of individuals" or "anthill-type" civilization? what
    PS The views expressed in the commentary, the opinion as a whole are not “personally suffered by me”, but are a compilation of “some materials on the Internet”! We should not forget about the cruelty that the Japanese troops "generously" showed to the enemy and the civilian population ... about the atrocities committed by the "Japanese military" in the years of WW2!
    The ideology that "dominated" in those years in Japan is in many ways akin to Hitler's fascism ... like: "Japan is above all ... Japanese are super. People ... the rest are subhuman ...
    1. karabass 6 February 2020 20: 16 New
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      After your words, I thought, maybe not in the USSR, but in Japan it was necessary to build socialism
      1. Nikolaevich I 7 February 2020 02: 04 New
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        Quote: karabass
        After your words, I thought, maybe not in the USSR, but in Japan it was necessary to build socialism

        Well then ... think ... who will forbid you? Only there is a suitable expression: no matter how much you shout “sugar”, your mouth will not be sweet! This is for your ideas where it is better to build socialism ...
  • Free wind 5 February 2020 07: 35 New
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    The Japanese are the Nazis, and the terrible Nazis. Not Japanese, not a man, this is their credo.
    1. Pessimist22 5 February 2020 08: 47 New
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      That's for sure, Detachment 731, the massacre in Nanjing, and much more.
    2. Krasnodar 5 February 2020 18: 39 New
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      Quote: Free Wind
      The Japanese are the Nazis, and the terrible Nazis. Not Japanese, not a man, this is their credo.

      Monarchist racists)).
  • Aviator_ 5 February 2020 08: 44 New
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    In the last picture, the near plane is a broken C-47 (or DC-3)
  • Catfish 5 February 2020 08: 52 New
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    The Japanese were generally great originals, while fighting with America, they sometimes went so far as to simply shit the enemy.
    In September 1942, Japanese naval aviation bombed the United States! Sensation! laughing

    Launched from an I-29 submarine, the E4Y1 seaplane (Glen) dropped as many as four lighters on Oregon corn. The heroic pilot Nobuo Fujita, safely returned to the carrier submarine and was subsequently awarded the samurai sword. The Americans, however, found out about this "raid" only after the end of the war. request drinks

    1. Krasnodar 5 February 2020 18: 40 New
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      Anti corn raid.
      1. Catfish 5 February 2020 19: 09 New
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        Namely, a very far-sighted operation, with a great reserve for the future: they just wanted to disrupt the visit of the respected Nikita Sergeyevich to the States, his acquaintance with corn and, as a result, the disruption of the development of “virgin and fallow lands” in the Soviet Union. Did not work out !!! laughing
        1. Krasnodar 5 February 2020 19: 18 New
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          I also thought about it in conjunction with Khrushchev laughing
  • Undecim 5 February 2020 10: 41 New
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    It is unlikely that the war, all the more so bloody, should be told in such a frivolously vaudeville style that the author chose.
    It would be better instead of inappropriate humor to study the topic in more detail.
    But, while administrative red tape and training of personnel were going on, the Americans moved further and further. And the leadership planned to strike at one airfield, then at another. And time passed. And in the end, they decided that it was a shame to delay Okinawa further and it was time to attack right now - otherwise, you see, the war would end.
    There was no administrative red tape. The raid on the Mariana Islands, scheduled for December 24, 1944, was canceled due to the fact that the intermediate airfield at Iwo Jima was destroyed and the landing could not refuel aircraft.
    The attack on the Iwo Jima airfields was canceled, since after the surrender of the Japanese garrison of the island, it had very little chance of success.
    As for the raid on Okinawa on May 24, 1945, it was aimed not at destroying B-29s, which were not there at all, but at destroying fighters based on the west coast, which very successfully intercepted kamikaze planes.
    To destroy the B-29 on August 19-23, a raid was planned on the Mariana Islands, but on August 15, Japan surrendered.

    One of the Japanese paratroopers who died at the Yomitan airfield.
    1. Undecim 5 February 2020 10: 52 New
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      Special camouflage was sewn for the Giretsu Kūteitai unit and special equipment was provided.
      1. Undecim 5 February 2020 13: 30 New
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        https://www2.nhk.or.jp/archives/shogenarchives/jpnews/movie.cgi?das_id=D0001300380_00000&seg_number=002
        [media=http://blob:https://www2.nhk.or.jp/f09cbb9d-4e9a-483a-bed8-0bdf97a156b0]
        A small Japanese documentary about Giretsu Kūteitai
      2. Henrik the reader 6 February 2020 03: 24 New
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        Good day!
        Let me fix it a bit. Camouflage (dark green paint) on their uniforms, paratroopers of the detachment Giretsu Kutaytay inflicted independently on May 23-24, 1945 at the Kengun airfield. The paint was borrowed from the airfield technical services, which used it to paint the airfield structures.
        Regards, Reader
        1. Undecim 6 February 2020 09: 07 New
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          I agree. In my army habit, I called “camouflage” a uniform that was specially sewn for Giretsu Kutaytai.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Henrik the reader 6 February 2020 03: 37 New
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      That's right! The operation of the Giretsu Kutaytai detachment in Okinawa was designed to provide a large-scale attack by the 6th Air Army kamikaze (including the Thunder Gods on Oka manned missile planes) as part of Operation Kikusui No. 7.
      Squad action plan:
      "1. Giretsu detachment leaves Kumamoto airfield at sunset of day X (departure time 18.00), flying at a very low altitude above the sea for about 770 km, coming from the north-west direction (at 23.20) a group of 8 planes enters the Northern airfield (Yomitan), part of the squad 4 aircraft goes to the middle airfield (Kadena). The crews of the aircraft make a forced landing on the runways of airfields.
      2. After a forced landing, the unit immediately begin to undermine enemy aircraft, ammunition storage sites and other objects. In addition, if possible, the squad is dispersed near the airfield and prevents the enemy from further use of the airport.
      3. The third separate squadron and its crews are responsible for Captain Okuyama’s detachment until landing. After landing, the crew members of the aircraft are transferred to the Giretsu detachment under the command of Captain Okuyama.
      4. Actions of other units involved in the operation.
      (1) Cover fighters make sorties and attacks throughout the daylight before sunset, covering the ground operation.
      (2) Heavy bombers carry out attacks on the Northern and Middle airfields 30 minutes before landing. One side throws cargo from strips of aluminum foil and light bombs over Cape Dzampamisaki to create false targets for radar installations and distract the enemy.
      Changes in action plans are allowed according to the current situation. ”
      Regards, Reader
  • Operator 5 February 2020 11: 46 New
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    "Rushing to America was pointless, the industrial potentials of the parties were so unequal", - Japan in 1905 included all of Korea, then entered the war with China in 1931 by occupying Manchuria, by December 1941, the entire coastal zone of China with a depth of up to 1000 km, where 90% of the Chinese lived, was occupied. so the combined promotional potential of the three countries was impressive.

    The only thing the Japanese empire lacked was oil sources for producing gasoline for airplanes and fuel oil for the fleet (South Sakhalin gave a small amount of production). Therefore, Japan was forced to conflict with the United States and Britain (which sold oil at a minimum) to access the oil field in the British colony of Malaysia.

    And in the Soviet Far East and Siberia, there were no known oil fields by December 1941 at all.
    1. ser56 5 February 2020 12: 57 New
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      Quote: Operator
      And in the Soviet Far East and Siberia, there were no known oil fields by December 1941 at all.

      if not a secret - why in the war did they build the Okha-Komsomolsk-on-Amur oil pipeline bully
      1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 09 New
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        So this is the same Sakhalin with small volumes of production, not enough to cover the needs of the army, aviation and navy of the Japanese Empire, consisting of Japan, Korea, Manchuria and the vast majority of the inhabited territory of China.
        1. ser56 5 February 2020 13: 21 New
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          Quote: Operator
          And in the Soviet Far East

          Quote: Operator
          So this is the same Sakhalin

          you somehow learn to write clearly ... request
          Quote: Operator
          low mining

          only 0,5 million tons went to the Komsomolsk refinery ...
          1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 24 New
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            Quote: ser56
            0,5 million tons went to the Komsomolsk refinery

            And what - would it save the Japanese empire with a population of 500 million people? laughing
            1. ser56 5 February 2020 13: 29 New
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              Quote: Operator
              And what - would it save the Japanese empire with a population of 500 million people?

              1) I do not care about her salvation ...
              2) you wrote stupidity, I noted this, reasonable people admit mistakes, but do not run ... request
              1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 32 New
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                Reality is quantitatively different from alternatives request
                1. ser56 5 February 2020 13: 38 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  Reality is quantitatively different from alternatives

                  1) funny, you were caught on inaccuracies and it became an alternative? bully
                  2) 0,5 million tons covered the needs of the entire Soviet Far East in gasoline and went to the front ...
                  1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 40 New
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                    To distinguish the population and troops in the Soviet Far East (which has not fought since 1939) from the population and troops of the Japanese Empire (which has been continuously fighting since 1931) is not fate?
                    1. ser56 5 February 2020 13: 41 New
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                      Quote: Operator
                      it's not meant to be?

                      went the classic of demagoguery, so as not to acknowledge his blunder ... I'm too lazy on ... request
                      1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 44 New
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                        You were initially too lazy to compare digital indicators - it’s easier to execute the stream of consciousness on the keyboard.
                      2. ser56 5 February 2020 13: 58 New
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                        Quote: Operator
                        You were initially too lazy to compare digital indicators -

                        Quote: Operator
                        And in the Soviet Far East and Siberia, there were no known oil fields by December 1941 at all.

                        scratch your complexes ... bully
      2. Undecim 5 February 2020 19: 50 New
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        Quote: Operator
        So this is the same Sakhalin with small volumes of production, not enough to cover the needs of the army, aviation and navy of the Japanese Empire, consisting of Japan, Korea, Manchuria and the vast majority of the inhabited territory of China.

        At the beginning of 1941, all of Japan’s oil reserves amounted to 42,7 million barrels of oil, which is approximately 5750000 million tons.
        In 1940, the Sakhalinneft Trust produced 505 tons of oil, which is 000% of all Japanese oil reserves at the beginning of 9.
        The Japanese estimated annual demand for oil from the army at 780 tons.
  • Kronos 5 February 2020 13: 44 New
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    Nevertheless, far from the United States anyway, because the United States easily restored losses in the navy and aviation, and the Japanese could not
    1. Operator 5 February 2020 13: 53 New
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      No one argues that the Japanese got involved in an adventure (they are not the first and not the last): the same German Reich, together with the satellite countries (including the Japanese Empire) and the occupied territories, by June 22, 1941, was several times behind the United States, the British Empire and the USSR industrial potential, but still climbed into trouble.

      But US Senator Harry Truman in 1941 publicly expressed the US position: if Stalin wins, we will help Hitler, if Hitler - Stalin. Those. the Third Reich, even with a favorable course of the war, had no chance of victory.
      1. Octopus 5 February 2020 16: 31 New
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        Quote: Operator
        the occupied territories on June 22, 1941 lagged behind the United States, the British Empire and the USSR in terms of aggregate industrial potential, but nevertheless climbed into trouble.

        And what can all these people do to them with their industrial potential? By the way, where does the United States, in June of the 41st?

        Quote: Operator
        Harry Truman in 1941 publicly expressed US position

        The US stance on the European War was expressed in the Lend-Lease Act, and not in Senator Truman's newspaper speeches. Truman, by the way, is as far from the Democratic Party as Roosevelt.
        Quote: Operator
        Those. the Third Reich, even with a favorable course of the war, had no chance of victory.

        You already decide. According to the version of the pro-Soviet comrades, Lend-Lease did not play any role, as Truman stated there, that he did not.

        Truman's statement, few people in Russia understand this, a big plus for the USSR. A big plus is that the very idea of ​​helping the USSR is allowed.
        1. Operator 5 February 2020 19: 49 New
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          My friend Partagenigenosse Octopus, it’s time you yourself decide on your orientation - I personally belong to the pro-Russian comrades laughing
        2. Alexey RA 5 February 2020 20: 35 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          By the way, where does the United States, in June of the 41st?

          Already at what - as the main supplier of "fire hoses" in the UK. wink
          And even to the detriment of their "fire brigades" - you remember how the generals at the beginning of 1941 barely knocked out of the FDR the decision to give the British only half of the produced weapons and equipment. Plus Neutral Patrol. Plus the re-occupation of Iceland. Plus a base-EM deal.
          The Americans even began to launch mass production of the Beauforts even before they received the license - under the pretext that all products will go to Britain, which has this license. So in the summer of 1941, the United States was the strong rear of the Island Empire, building everything it needed for it, up to escort aircraft (the first Bogeys for VBR were laid in April 1941).
          Quote: Octopus
          Truman's statement, few people in Russia understand this, a big plus for the USSR. A big plus is that the very idea of ​​helping the USSR is allowed.

          Just few people remember about the pre-war US policy towards the USSR. For example, about the moral embargo of 1939.
          Due to the military situation and the spread of the moral embargo on the Soviet Union, placing our orders in the USA and deliveries of already placed ones encounter a number of obstacles both from the US government and individual firms ... The conditions for placing our orders in the USA have worsened. When placing our orders, a 20% advance payment and an irrevocable letter of credit are now required. If the firm, on the recommendation of the US government, refuses to fulfill the accepted order, then 10% of the advance payment remains in favor of the firm. In connection with the above, the question arises of the appropriateness of transferring our imports from the USA to Germany on the basis of the trade and economic agreement of the USSR with Germany. But the placement of our orders in Germany is limited, firstly, by the size of the loan agreement between the USSR and Germany, secondly, by the terms of the business agreement (product range) and, thirdly, by loading German industry with domestic orders.
          © certificate of the People's Commissariat for Foreign Trade on May 20, 1940.
          And "moral" this embargo was only by name. In fact, this emargo was mandatory - the state strictly monitored the morality of the “sharks of capitalism," and the companies-violators immediately fell under the regular checks of state bodies. And the chance to fly past government orders sharply increased (and it was precisely at this time that the FDR began to deploy a multi-million army, and then to supply Britain).
          1. Octopus 5 February 2020 22: 30 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            For example, about the moral embargo of 1939.

            Well, what to do. Mr. Roosevelt did not like the Allies of the Reich. Moreover, in the 39th year, even Mussolini was neutral, he was still smart enough, but the later winner of fascism led a much stranger realpolitik. The only one in Europe.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Already to do with

            Hitler underestimated this moment. On the other hand, the activity of the Americans precisely in terms of military potential didn’t really decide then.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            the generals in early 1941 barely knocked out of the FDR the decision to give the British only half

            American generals could go about their direct business. After 3 years to go to war, we could already begin to prepare 60 thousandunters for lieutenant programs, as you know who. No, they rewrote the combatants as an army and pretend that they are ready for war. Roosevelt Million, Lord God.
            1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 10: 35 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              American generals could go about their direct business. After 3 years to go to war, we could already begin to prepare 60 thousandunters for lieutenant programs, as you know who. No, they rewrote the combatants as an army and pretend that they are ready for war. Roosevelt Million, Lord God.

              And the generals in 1941 answered: we would be glad, Mr. President, to prepare the army, so there’s nothing. You yourself take away from us everything that we ordered for the new army - Three tape recorders, three movie cameras abroad, three domestic cigarette cases, a jacket ... suede ... Three. Jackets
              I was especially pleased with the Roosevelt trick with 75-mm guns: since the army still switches to the 105-mm caliber, then I withdraw half of the 75-mm guns from it for Lend-Lease. But the fact that the 105-mm guns will only be in 1942, and before that there’s nothing to equip artillery regiments of new formations and train artillerymen — these are trifles. smile
              1. Octopus 6 February 2020 11: 26 New
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                Quote: Alexey RA
                we would be glad, Mr. President, to prepare the army

                I recall the problem of a bad dancer.
                Firstly, LL of the beginning of the 41st year is dozens of guns in the Balkans.
                Secondly, to say that unfortunate Americans have nothing to train artillerymen, because there is no American ZIS-3 - this is one of the most stupid excuses that you can think of. He came to Congress and said the question is cheap.
    2. Fat
      Fat 6 February 2020 18: 19 New
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      Quote: Kronos
      Nevertheless, far from the United States anyway, because the United States easily restored losses in the navy and aviation, and the Japanese could not

      Well. They set the task to reproduce more than lose. There were many superfluous people during the depression ... Sailors, workers in the military-industrial complex. So you’ll think about whom the war is like a Mother Native. Is it easy for states to get a breakthrough? The confrontation was worse for the British, from the Empire to debtors.
      Oh, it’s worse not to come up with, from the former alays, we look worthy only of the USSR and the Russian Federation ....
  • Alexey RA 5 February 2020 20: 12 New
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    Quote: Operator
    Japan in 1905 included all of Korea, then entered the war with China in 1931 through the occupation of Manchuria, by December 1941, the entire coastal zone of China with a depth of up to 1000 km, where 90% of the Chinese lived, was occupied. so the combined promotion potential of the three countries was impressive.

    Oh yes ... the industrial potential of Manchuria was so great that Japan received its first profit from the occupied territories only ten years later. And before that, the Japanese only had to invest in new territories. smile
    Quote: Operator
    And in the Soviet Far East and Siberia, there were no known oil fields by December 1941 at all.

    Mwa ha ha ... Japanese oil production on Sakhalin consisted of production on Japanese southern Sakhalin and Soviet Northern Sakhalin. Allocation of oil fields of Northern Sakhalin for production by Japanese companies was one of the conditions of the Convention on the basic principles of relations between the USSR and Japan - these concessions, in fact, we paid for the departure of Japanese interventionists from the Far East.
    Japanese oil production in North Sakhalin ceased only in 1943.
    Another thing is that by the end of the 30s this production for the Empire was a drop in the bucket: a maximum of 200 tons was reached in 000, only 1931 tons were mined in 1939, and even less in the war:
    17 thousand tons of oil produced in Northern Sakhalin in 1942, accounted for approximately 0,4% of Japan's total consumption.

    By the way, a surreal picture turns out: the army men are fighting with the gaijins at Nomonhon to death, and the dazybatsu pump oil on the territory of these gaijins. smile
  • Mikhail3 5 February 2020 12: 51 New
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    Japan is a failed empire. The then Japanese elite built all their actions taking into account the fact that you should try to seize your chance at this very empire. The attack on the United States was a daring calculation, consisting in the fact that America could not have survived if Hitler had achieved its goals. Having knocked out the USSR from the war, and having overturned England, the Germans would be natural, and extremely powerful allies of the Japanese.
    However, the Japanese blitzkrieg of the outbreak of war could also succeed. If the Japanese acted a little more successfully (they would have at least half the luck that they had in Russian-Japanese), and everything could end with the landing of Japanese landings in American industrial centers. Extremely vulnerable from the sea, the United States could well lose.
    Did not happen...
    1. Kronos 5 February 2020 13: 46 New
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      No, they could have simply ended their military resources by the summer of 1942, after which they did not win a single battle
      1. Mikhail3 5 February 2020 15: 08 New
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        Given the gigantic army that had to be kept on the border of the USSR ... The resources that this army devoured would have been enough for at least another year of war, and if the Japanese landed in the United States, and if the attack on Pearl Harbor were more successful, they could have to do, it could be supplied in the United States. There, on the coast, there are a lot of things.
        1. Kronos 5 February 2020 15: 11 New
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          For the landing, a fleet and aircraft were needed which blew off corny so that the landing was impossible. Actually, just like the Germans could not land in Britain, for example
    2. Octopus 5 February 2020 16: 22 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      the attack on the United States was a daring calculation that America could not have survived if Hitler had achieved his goals

      On December 7, 41, Germany and the United States were not at war. Even after the US PX, Germany was not declared a war. Roosevelt's main slogan in the 40th election is neutrality in the European war.
      Quote: Mikhail3
      Having knocked out the USSR from the war, and overthrowing England, the Germans

      The Germans should have mastered these resources for decades. Just like the victory in WWI over Russia, the Germans did not give any quick buns, except for the release of forces.
      Quote: Mikhail3
      Act the Japanese a little more successfully

      The Japanese acted fabulously successfully, they themselves did not believe that everything turns out so easily.
      Quote: Mikhail3
      landings of Japanese landings in American industrial centers

      Detroit, or what? Drugs are bad, but illiteracy is even worse.
      Quote: Mikhail3
      The United States could well lose.

      The United States could have thought that all these Pacific affairs were seen in a coffin. They are not smeared with honey there, to fight for the liberation of the Dutch, English and French colonies. But then the Japanese were greatly miscalculated.
      1. Alexey RA 5 February 2020 20: 47 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        The United States could have thought that all these Pacific affairs were seen in a coffin. They are not smeared with honey there, to fight for the liberation of the Dutch, English and French colonies.

        Heh heh heh ... you can still recall the decisions of ABC-1, according to which Europe was designated as the main theater of the future war. And the American military plans - all kinds of WPOs, in which it was written in black and white that military planning is based on these very decisions.
        Yes, and in real life, the theater of operations was not particularly respected. Remember that Nimitz collected for the defense of Midway. Or how did the squadrons in the Solomon Islands complete (decommissioned Lend-Lease aircraft by Britain belay ) Or, as Nimitz, to accompany TF.16 and TF.17, Midway could not find a single high-speed LC at his place, while at least two were pickled in the Atlantic (I only take combat-ready ones).
        1. Octopus 5 February 2020 22: 16 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          Yes, and in real life, the theater of operations was not particularly respected. Remember

          Here I see rather a complete livejourn in terms of preparation for the war.

          Now, now they criticize Comrade a lot. Stalin and, of course, for the cause. He established something there in the 41st, for something there he was not ready. But there is a consensually good Mr. Roosevelt. He has a major adversary, a cricket behind the stove for economics and technology, sent all maritime treaties away in the 34th year. What is Mr. Roosevelt going to defend his anti-Soviet homeland 7 years later, in the 3rd year of the great war, and the 5th year of the Asian war, in which he is quietly participating? 9 old LK against 11 Japanese, including Yamato, 3 AB against 6 Japanese. Air defense of any base looks pathetic even against the background of Singapore.

          Question on the summer of the 42nd. And where are the five spitfires at this time? Protect Australian Darwin. For Americans, air defense is represented by the Brewsters and Wildcat. Well, OK, cho, planes are also normal.

          Quote: Alexey RA
          Europe was appointed the main theater of the future war

          Two d-la is power, liked to repeat Mr. Marshall and Mr. Eisenhower. War in Europe in 42nd, Slajhammer. Aiki had to howl for six months in Tunisia with horror, imagining that it would be if Churchill's heroes weren’t swathed on time, and if they were, like in Tunisia, under the full Wehrmacht of '42.
          1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 10: 54 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Two Dr.s are power, Mr. Marshall and Mr. Eisenhower used to say. War in Europe in 42nd, Slajhammer. Aiki had to howl for six months in Tunisia with horror, imagining that it would be if Churchill's heroes weren’t swathed on time, and if they were, like in Tunisia, under the full Wehrmacht of '42.

            Everything is considered a powerful hurricane. © smile
            Those who participated in the FAA also did not particularly want to substitute the army in Europe immediately under the entire Wehrmacht. Therefore, of course, Germany was appointed the main adversary, but Italy was assigned as the primary target in Europe.
            The first task of the war in Europe was to drive out the weakest member of the Axis. And since it was possible to get to Italy in 1941 only from the south, the preliminary training on cats in Africa was predetermined initially.
            Quote: Octopus
            What is Mr. Roosevelt going to defend his anti-Soviet homeland 7 years later, in the 3rd year of the great war, and the 5th year of the Asian war, in which he is quietly participating? 9 old LK against 11 Japanese, including Yamato, 3 AB against 6 Japanese. Air defense of any base looks pathetic even against the background of Singapore.

            Campaign, Mr. Roosevelt, too, did not have enough "one peaceful year." smile
            Quote: Octopus
            Air defense of any base looks pathetic even against the background of Singapore.

            Come on. The same PX only in the army air defense had two anti-aircraft artillery brigades (actually 86 - 76 mm, 20 - 37 mm guns and 109 - 12,7 mm machine guns with a staff of 110 - 76 mm, 144 - 37 mm and 516 - 12,7 mm) and under a hundred "axes". And that's not counting Marine Defense Battalions on the island.
            Another thing is that, due to the excellent American organization, the 37-mm guns received ammunition only on December 5, 1941 - 10 (ten!) Months after arriving in Oahu.

            But you can not look at the Philippines - they should have been sacrificed anyway according to pre-war plans.
            1. Octopus 7 February 2020 08: 27 New
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              Quote: Alexey RA
              Therefore, of course, Germany was appointed the main adversary, but Italy was assigned as the primary target in Europe.

              It is as if for a 42-year-old American there is such a difference between Italy and France.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              pre-cat training in Africa was predetermined initially.

              Unfortunately, the averaged version of the story is that Roosevelt jumped out of his pants with the desire to land right in France, and Marshall and Eisenhower assented him. Criminally assented, American Keitel that the first, that the second.
              The same American mission in Britain that you like to remember, in the 41st examined with masterful eyes future world republic of councils unsinkable aircraft carrier / unsinkable UDC is not at all aimed at the summer of the 44th.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Mr. Roosevelt didn’t have enough “one peaceful year”

              Yes and no.
              Yes, the fleet was indeed ready for war by the end of the 43rd (that is, two peaceful years). Moreover, almost everything that they had in the 41st was already beginning to be done, the game was quite small.

              On the other hand, the main need of the Americans, even more, than you know where, - a radical contraction of the commanding staff. In peacetime, this is difficult to expect. Would King and Knox learn about the existence of enemy submarines without second happy times? I doubt it very much.

              Well, the land investigators, of course. To the wanderers, not a year or ten years was enough to grow wiser. As Eisenhower struggled with the military and military-industrial complex in the 40s, he continued to do so until the 60th year. Only the militia, only the ersatz weapons of a special period. Swords on yelling, that's all.

              Quote: Alexey RA
              had two anti-aircraft artillery brigades

              It is somehow strange to remind you that air defense is not the number of barrels. This is a management system. Moreover, the Americans, with the mentioned owner's eyes, should be in the know. And axes, yes, a good air defense plane for the 42nd year.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              The Philippines can not be watched - they still had to be sacrificed according to pre-war plans.

              Only Marshall, for some reason, runs in circles and calls them Texan, EMNIP, Zazhopinsk, former Adjutant MacArthur, so that at least someone can find out how everything is on the ground.

              Philippines planned to surrender King Stark. The fact that Marshall does not know about this is, well, such Marshall was the chief of the General Staff. The fact that the Americans had a cunning plan to work out the evacuation of Comrade Oktyabrsky from Sevastopol in advance, I might have believed earlier, but if I had learned the cunning plans of the Didovs a little better, I won’t believe it.
    3. Alexey RA 5 February 2020 20: 38 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      If the Japanese acted a little more successfully (they would have at least half the luck that they had in Russian-Japanese), and everything could end with the landing of Japanese landings in American industrial centers.

      Not in this life. Even in real life, mobilization of transports for operations in Southeast Asia left the Empire only 20% of the minimum tonnage required for transportation peacetime. A hypothetical landing in the United States would kill the Japanese economy faster than a military defeat.
    4. Hantengri 5 February 2020 20: 57 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      Act the Japanese a little more successfully (they would have at least half of the luck that they had in Russian-Japanese)

      "Every good fortune has a last name, first name and patronymic." (c) (almost). Japanese luck, 1904 - 1905, was called mainly Kuropatkin Alexey Nikolaevich. hi
  • Kostadinov 5 February 2020 15: 10 New
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    Quote: BlackMokona
    Could capitulate and save millions of lives of their compatriots. All the same, there was no chance of winning

    You think so now. And then, by May 1945, the USSR was still beaten by a neutral state and the Japanese were beaten up by a lot of chances to avoid surrender if the USSR remained neutral and even more likely if Soviet neutrality allowed the delivery of materials necessary for Japan (fuel, metals, etc.).
    1. Mikhail3 5 February 2020 15: 22 New
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      I think your opponent is still right. I read a book by Akio Morita, one of the founders of Sony's company. So, he wrote about the time that Japanese cities and production facilities were destroyed by bombing so qualitatively that they literally turned into rubble. By that spring, Japan was already getting its last stock. It was too late to help.
      If it were possible to convey a little of today's knowledge in those years, help should be organized at the beginning of the 44th. For example, the conclusion of a secret non-aggression pact, which would allow the Japanese to transfer troops standing on the border with the USSR to the American theater, at least two-thirds. Plus oil ...
      Only this is all unrealistic.
      If the USSR industrial production greatly pulled by the year 44, then the food was a complete seam. Lend-lease was literally a salvation in this respect. Plus steel, especially armored plates, and just sheet metal. Plus spare parts for machines, which were mostly American. Yes, there’s a lot more ... it’s not known whether Pokryshkin, accustomed to Aerocobra, would have survived if he had been transplanted to the UC, from which the duralumin began to crumble when it was exceeded.
      And Japan’s help would never have been hidden.
      1. Kronos 5 February 2020 16: 25 New
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        And why help the Japanese who are allies of the Nazis?
        1. Mikhail3 6 February 2020 12: 20 New
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          To prevent the 90s from happening. The Americans, as the flagship leader of the capitalist world, were the natural enemy of the USSR, as demonstrated by waging a constant war with us around the world, which ultimately ended in their victory. Tactically they were allies then, strategically it was necessary to do everything to weaken them, which is only possible.
    2. Kronos 5 February 2020 16: 23 New
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      What a chance the US troops systematically seized the territory of Japan, the Navy and aircraft are defeated
    3. Octopus 5 February 2020 16: 33 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      allowed the delivery of materials necessary for Japan (fuel, metals, etc.).

      And what will Mr. Nimitz say about these deliveries? And Land Liz in the USSR has been going on all this time, how did it go on in real life?
  • Kostadinov 5 February 2020 15: 22 New
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    Quote: Kronos
    No, they could have simply ended their military resources by the summer of 1942, after which they did not win a single battle

    The Japanese had a very successful offensive in China in 1944. Their ground army beat almost the whole and prepared for a decisive battle in their own territory. They had enough weapons, ammunition and fighting spirit for this battle with a beat. The second atomic bombing of the city of Nagasaki showed the Japanese command that the devil is not so terrible. If the USSR remained neutral, then the war could end in a ceasefire without the surrender of Japan.
    1. Kronos 5 February 2020 16: 27 New
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      The whole army, but aviation and industry are destroyed. There the cities were in ruins like Germany, the whole army without supplies would quickly end; I’m not saying that they can be bombed corny
    2. Octopus 5 February 2020 16: 38 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      the war could end in a ceasefire without the surrender of Japan.

      That would be a very reasonable solution. Like Hitler, by the way. But the United States did not consider such an option at all.
    3. Engineer 5 February 2020 19: 18 New
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      The second atomic bombing of the city of Nagasaki showed the Japanese command that the devil is not so terrible. If the USSR remained neutral, then the war could end in a ceasefire without the surrender of Japan.

      Oh, this myth that the atomic bombing did not impress Japan.
      Impressed and gave a good trump card to peace supporters.
      But the effect was undoubtedly integral - the death of the fleet, underwater blockade, bombing, atomic bombing, the entry into the war of the USSR. Here the most stubborn people realized that this was the end.
  • Kostadinov 5 February 2020 16: 40 New
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    I read a book by Akio Morita, one of the founders of Sony's company. So, he wrote about the time that Japanese cities and production facilities were destroyed by bombing so qualitatively that they literally turned into rubble. By that spring, Japan was already getting its last stock. It was too late to help.

    Japanese cities made of wood and paper are more than 80% - where crushed stone could appear unclear. The production of power for large ships and large airplanes no longer hit, but for weapons and ammunition for the army, aircraft and boats for kamikazes they were enough. In addition, there were large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition for the ground army, which practically did not fight throughout the war.
    If it were possible to convey a little of today's knowledge in those years, help should be organized at the beginning of the 44th. For example, the conclusion of a secret non-aggression pact, which would allow the Japanese to transfer troops standing on the border with the USSR to the American theater, at least two-thirds. Plus oil ...
    Only this is all unrealistic.

    The non-aggression treaty between the USSR and Japan had already beaten the clear conclusions in April 1941 so that there was no need for a secret treaty. Japanese troops in Manjuria beat little and they stood against the Chinese mainly. If the USSR helped to conclude the armistice of Japan and China, then this could be significant, but even without it more than two-thirds of the Japanese ground forces were already in the metropolis and did not leave the whole war anywhere.
    If the USSR industrial production greatly pulled by the year 44, then the food was a complete seam. Lend-lease was literally a salvation in this respect. Plus steel, especially armored plates, and just sheet metal. Plus spare parts for machines, which were mostly American. Yes, there’s a lot more ... it’s not known whether Pokryshkin, accustomed to Aerocobra, would have survived if he had been transplanted to the UC, from which the duralumin began to crumble when it was exceeded.

    Japan did not need food and the USSR didn’t die of starvation without Lend-Lease, if Germany did not die in 1944-45, especially since the USSR, which by the beginning of 1945 had liberated a number of European countries. If Kozhedub survived on Soviet aircraft, Pokrishkin could also survive - all the same, the war was not waged not for the voyage of Pokrishkin.
    Lend-lease armor plates hit very little. The USSR produced armored plates using simplified technology in large quantities.
    And Japan’s help would never have been hidden.

    Normal trade with a neutral state does not have to be beaten to hide.
    1. Alexey RA 5 February 2020 20: 55 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      Japan did not need food

      Read Hattori Takushiro, "Japan in the 1941-1945 War."
      In 1941-1942 The Japanese metropolis imported more than 2,5 million tons of grain per year. In 1943, imports fell by half. In 1944, twenty times. And the famine began on the islands.
      The demand for basic foodstuffs in Japan itself tended to increase every year, but in order to bring them in line with the supply possibilities, they were limited at 13 million tons. Nevertheless, the shortage of rice and grains remained unfulfilled even with significant replacement by potatoes. , sugarcane and other cereals

      That is precisely the problem of the Island Empires - under the domination of the enemy in communications, it is not the figures of total production that are important, but the figures for goods delivered to final consumers. What is the use of Japanese Kyushu from rice in a warehouse in Manchuria? No, there is rice, and in theory it is enough for everyone. But in practice, he will not get on the plate in the Metropolis.
    2. Mikhail3 6 February 2020 12: 30 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      Japanese cities made of wood and paper more than 80% - from where the rubble could appear unclear

      Can’t you do without stupid things? Production buildings were made of stone, which crumbled. Where did the “stored reserves” and production facilities come from? The Americans bombed with a carpet, destroying everything, and they completely achieved their goals.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The non-aggression treaty between the USSR and Japan has already beaten with the apparent conclusions in April 1941

      And it was, as both sides understood, a worthless piece of paper. In case of the slightest change in the situation, the Japanese would immediately attack, and we ... In general, for the conclusion of the PRESENT agreement, the conditions matured only when the Japanese had seriously grabbed into the face. And then most likely we would have to “invite” the emperor’s family to the USSR, for example, to confirm the agreements, we would very much risk such an agreement.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Japanese troops in Manjuria beat a little

      Indeed. What a million people, a trifle. And millions of tons of concrete only ... Sheer nonsense!
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Japan did not need food and the USSR didn’t die without Lend-Lease

      This is already turning into trolling, sir. We had hells hunger in 46-47. Why do you think so? What food from the destroyed countries? This is not an argument, this is nonsense.
      1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 16: 17 New
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        Quote: Mikhail3
        Indeed. What a million people, a trifle.

        In fact, the Kwantung Army by 1945 was severely lost in combat power. Units and formations were constantly pulled out of it - first for the defense of the Perimeter, then for the defense of the Metropolis. As a result, the army had to be replenished even at the expense of local resources:
        In 1944 and early 1945 many divisions were recalled from the Kwantung Army to the metropolis and to the southern fronts. In just 10 months, during which I commanded the 1st front, 6 divisions were recalled from the front. Among them: 11, 25 infantry and 1 tank division - to the metropolis, 111 and 120 infantry - to Korea and 12 infantry to FORMOZU.
        In July 1945, at the direction of the headquarters of the Kwantung Army, the 1st Front formed 134, 135 and 139 front and 132 mixed brigades. For the formation of these compounds, in addition to the called-up Japanese and Koreans living in MANCHURIA, various small detachments and units were used, including from border garrisons. We managed to finish the formation mainly by July 30, but not completely, because there were not enough people and weapons (guns and machine guns).
        In July 1945, the formation of new formations was also carried out in the districts of 3 fronts, which almost all were re-created during this period and in the districts of 4 armies. In early July 1945, 59 pd arrived from China to Korea.
        © Protocol of interrogation of the Commander 1 Front of General Seiichi
  • Kostadinov 5 February 2020 17: 35 New
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    Quote: Kronos
    The whole army, but aviation and industry are destroyed. There the cities were in ruins like Germany, the whole army without supplies would quickly end; I’m not saying that they can be bombed corny

    The destruction of Japanese aviation, and especially industry, is an exaggeration, to rephrase Mark Twain.
    The Korean and Vietnamese cities were also beaten in ruins, but the Americans in Korea did not succeed in bombarding the Korean-Chinese land army with aviation, although it hit several times less than the Japanese and was not better armed. So I am tormented by deep doubts about the success of the American operation in the Japanese metropolis, with the neutrality of the USSR. The United States beat another option - to strengthen the Chinese army several times, but for this it took time - at least 2-3 years.
    1. Kronos 5 February 2020 19: 31 New
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      The neutrality of the USSR in the signed treaties with the allies is not an alternative story but unscientific fiction + do not forget that the USSR wanted to return the territories taken by the Japanese, and nobody forgot about their aggressive actions in the 20-30s. No neutrality of the USSR was impossible
    2. Alexey RA 5 February 2020 21: 03 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      The Korean and Vietnamese cities were also beaten in ruins, but the Americans in Korea did not succeed in bombarding the Korean-Chinese land army with aviation, although it hit several times less than the Japanese and was not better armed.

      The Korean and Vietnamese army were supplied from factories lying outside the territory of the bombing. And the Japanese army - from factories regularly destroyed by US army aviators. It came to the point that new planes could not find screws - the plant was destroyed, new production has not yet begun.
      Horikoshi briefly describes how Japanese industry degraded in 1944-1945. And for Hattori - how the army could not arm the newly created defense divisions of the Metropolis.
  • Operator 5 February 2020 20: 14 New
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    Quote: Undecim
    land army oil demand

    Plus intensely warring fleet and aircraft.
  • serg v zapase 6 February 2020 03: 58 New
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    This japania has a bunch of ninja and karateka, where did they all go during the war?
  • Military Builder 6 February 2020 06: 25 New
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    Quote: svp67
    Yeah, the courage and selflessness of the Japanese soldiers must be paid tribute. But everything crosses out that all this was in vain. It was already agony and a senseless waste of the country's main resource - human

    Adzhimushkaysky quarries, Brest Fortress, winter 1941-42 in besieged Leningrad and many others. other examples - could be called Agony and a senseless waste of human resources. But maybe thanks to these events, they survived and won.
  • Kostadinov 6 February 2020 11: 54 New
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    Quote: Kronos
    The neutrality of the USSR in the signed treaties with the allies is not an alternative story but unscientific fiction + do not forget that the USSR wanted to return the territories taken by the Japanese, and nobody forgot about their aggressive actions in the 20-30s. No neutrality of the USSR was impossible

    What alternative history and science fiction - is there a real treaty between the USSR and Japan I signed in April 1941? At the time of Japan, Japan did not break this treaty when its ally Germany fought with the USSR. They knew about this agreement both in the USA and in Germany, but could not change anything. If you don’t know, the USSR interned in its territory American planes bombing Japan, including the B-29. This is the plane the United States never thought was delivered to the USSR. The USSR broke off the treaty with Japan only in August 1945.
    No territories and aggressive actions interfered from April 1941 to August 1945.
    1. Karen 6 February 2020 12: 00 New
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      There is irrefutable evidence that Japan was also preparing for war against the USSR ... They had tank prefixes in their troops allowing them to move their tanks by rail ... By rail of the USSR standard :)
  • Kostadinov 6 February 2020 12: 01 New
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    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Kostadinov
    The Korean and Vietnamese cities were also beaten in ruins, but the Americans in Korea did not succeed in bombarding the Korean-Chinese land army with aviation, although it hit several times less than the Japanese and was not better armed.

    The Korean and Vietnamese army were supplied from factories lying outside the territory of the bombing. And the Japanese army - from factories regularly destroyed by US army aviators. It came to the point that new planes could not find screws - the plant was destroyed, new production has not yet begun.
    Horikoshi briefly describes how Japanese industry degraded in 1944-1945. And for Hattori - how the army could not arm the newly created defense divisions of the Metropolis.

    Exactly - if the USSR maintained neutrality in the summer of 1945, after the defeat of Germany, the Japanese army could be supplied from the factories of bombings lying outside the territory - Korea and Manjuria.
    Do not exaggerate the degradation of the Japanese industry due to the bombing. Take a closer look at Japanese arms production in the summer of 1945. It was enough for the army and for the kamikaze.
    1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 13: 58 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      Do not exaggerate the degradation of the Japanese industry due to the bombing. Take a closer look at Japanese arms production in the summer of 1945. It was enough for the army and for the kamikaze.

      The end of 1944:
      An important problem was the provision of new compounds with weapons and military equipment; the available reserves made it possible to provide new formations with rifles by 50%, light machine guns by 23%, field artillery by 28%, anti-tank artillery by 74%, and mountain artillery by 75%.

      1945 year:
      The aviation units included about 10 thousand aircraft, of which 75% were training, converted into attack aircraft.
      © Takushiro Hattori
      So, out of the "paper" ten thousand combat aircraft, in fact only two and a half thousand are combat, and another seven and a half thousand are "flying targets."
      And here is what happened in the aviation branch of Mitsubishi in the summer of 1945:
      July 22nd. I returned to Mitsubishi Factory No. 1 in Matsumoto, where I received a new position in the design department. Matsumoto remained one of the few cities that have not yet been subjected to air raids. The rest were: Kyoto, Hiroshima, Nara, Nagasaki, Fukuyama, Mito. The company was desperate to establish effective communication between units and workshops scattered across the country after the dispersal program. However, these efforts yielded almost nothing, and things came into a state of complete chaos. Management was ineffective, and we achieved little due to general confusion. Our efforts seemed hopeless. The bombing continued and captured the whole country. Now everyone understood that there was no way to win the war. It was pointless to continue the fight, but we were sucked by a quagmire of warfare.
      © Horikoshi Jiro
      Japan industry as a whole:
      It is impossible to pinpoint the effect of the bombing due to the state of terrible chaos in which Japan found itself by August 1945. Over 30% of our aviation industry has been seriously affected. These attacks led to a reduction in production by 7000 aircraft per year. We lost more than 70% of the propellers, which in itself was a terrible blow. Towards the end of the war, the bombing caused disruptions in the production of high-octane gasoline. Although we had excess production capacity, by August 14, 1945, the Super Fortress had destroyed 11 of the most modern refineries. You should not evaluate the total damage to industry by simply summing up the destroyed production facilities. Many plants were useless, having lost the raw materials and machines necessary for normal operation. They suffered from a shortage of workers who fled the cities in fear of new raids.
      By the end of July, approximately 90 cities had turned into funeral pyres. Only 4 major cities in the country remained untouched - Kyoto, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Sapporo. Only random bombs fell on them. Our industry has been strangled. Even entire Tohoku and Hokkaido plants were idle. The machines were inactive because there was no raw material, and most importantly, the transport that delivered their products to Honshu did not work. The flocks of aircraft carriers completely paralyzed the work of all communications and practically stopped the transportation between Hokkaido and other islands of Japan.
      The 4 most important industrial areas of Japan were Tokyo - Yokohama, Osaka - Kobe, Nagoya and Kita-Kyushu. The condition of these cities best reflects the state of Japan itself at the time of surrender. The 5 largest cities, not counting Kita-Kyushu, received almost half of all the bombs dropped by the XII Air Army. The core of these cities, with a total area of ​​103,22 square miles, was completely destroyed. They ceased to exist as targets.
      © Okumiya Matasaki
  • Kostadinov 6 February 2020 12: 46 New
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    Quote: Karen
    There is irrefutable evidence that Japan was also preparing for war against the USSR ... They had tank prefixes in their troops allowing them to move their tanks by rail ... By rail of the USSR standard :)

    It was preparing but not attacking either in 1941 or in 1942 when this could have had grave consequences for the USSR.
    In 1942, the Japanese were beaten up with all the possibilities, although they would interrupt Lend-Lease delivery to the USSR through Siberia and the Persian Gulf. Exactly at that moment when the Germans interrupted the delivery to Murmansk. From this, the USSR certainly could not perish, but they could spoil.
    At the beginning of 1945, Japan offered to sell the USSR its large ships (Yamato, cruisers, aircraft carriers) in exchange for oil and the Il-2 ground attack aircraft (they were very suitable for kamikaze).
    1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 14: 09 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      In 1942, the Japanese were beaten up with all the possibilities, although they would interrupt Lend-Lease delivery to the USSR through Siberia and through the Persian Gulf.

      Yeah ... smart plan: start a war with the USSR - and get the B-17 armada over the Metropolis. This is one of the favorite ideas of the FDR in 1942-1943. - if the USSR provides us with airfields in the Far East, then we will send two hundred B-17s that will bomb everything. to reach.
      Taking into account the state of air defense of the Japanese Metropolis and the results of the Japanese intercepts of the B-17, the "fortress" in 1942 was an unbreakable image on the theater of operations.
      And how to interrupt supplies on the Southern route? Kido Butai in the Indian Ocean cannot be registered for a permanent - her schedule is scheduled for six months ahead: at the 5th DAV - the Coral Sea, at the 1st and 2nd DAV - Midway. And from everything else, Somerville will be beaten off.
  • Fat
    Fat 6 February 2020 17: 52 New
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    It seemed to me that the author was skewed with the sources. Teishintai in the imperial army appeared half a year earlier than the simpu tokubetsu kogekitai (kamikaze). And it was the army paratroopers who gathered the fighters. And such groups had serious successes. And that the author did not say what, his affairs ...
  • Kostadinov 6 February 2020 18: 07 New
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    Yeah ... smart plan: start a war with the USSR - and get the B-17 armada over the Metropolis. This is one of the favorite ideas of the FDR in 1942-1943. - if the USSR provides us with airfields in the Far East, then we will send two hundred B-17s that will bomb everything. to reach out.
    Taking into account the state of air defense of the Japanese Metropolis and the results of the Japanese intercepts of the B-17, the "fortress" in 1942 was an unbreakable image on the theater of operations.

    Two hundred B-17 destroy Japan? Here is a plan much more chic. Roosevelt's favorite idea could only end since Operation Shangri-La ended — another of his favorite ideas.
    The interceptions of the much better B-29 in 1945 do not allow the B-29 to be called an “unbreakable imba” for Japanese air defense. A hundred B-17 in 1942 without escort over Japan is worse than the B-17 in 1943 over Ploiesti or Schweinfurt. This will be a bloody sight not for the faint of heart. Moreover, in the Far East they should be beaten and equipped with bombs and fuel. Vyi scored what happened in Poltava with the B-17 in 1944? With Beth, all B-17 children had to be removed from the front against Germany to the joy of the Germans.
    And how to interrupt supplies on the Southern route? Kido Butai in the Indian Ocean cannot be registered for a permanent - her schedule is scheduled for six months ahead: at the 5th DAV - the Coral Sea, at the 1st and 2nd DAV - Midway. And from everything else, Somerville will be beaten off.

    Why not? What prevented Ceylon from occupying and engaged in the "liberation" of the Middle East, Iran and India in 1942, together with Romel and the Italian fleet? In this region, there was no great love for the British to say the least. And what Somerville in 1942 - he escaped breaking screws from the Japanese.
    1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 20: 30 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      The interceptions of the much better B-29 in 1945 do not allow the B-29 to be called an “unbreakable imba” for Japanese air defense. And a hundred B-17s in 1942 without escort over Japan are worse than the B-17s in 1943 over Ploiesti or Schweinfurt.

      Do not confuse 1942 and 1945
      In 1942, the B-17 was an extremely difficult goal even for the naval with their cannon fighters. About army men with their machine-gun Ki-43 or even Ki-27 I do not speak.
      About 100 army aircraft, about 200 naval aircraft, about 500 ground artillery barrels and about 200 naval anti-aircraft artillery barrels were allocated for Japanese air defense. These forces completed the formation and were trained.
      © Hattori
      Quote: Kostadinov
      With Beth, all B-17 children had to be removed from the front against Germany to the joy of the Germans.

      So you yourself write. that the B-17s in Europe were meat. That is, instead of meaningless death in Europe, they had a chance in the Far East to bring benefits.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Why not? What prevented Ceylon from occupying and engaged in the "liberation" of the Middle East, Iran and India in 1942, together with Romel and the Italian fleet?

      What got in the way? Lack of own forces and conditions for the operation.
      1. Ceylon operation:
      a) The purpose of the operation: the capture of Ceylon to eliminate the influence of the enemy in the Indian direction;
      b) To participate in the operation one or two divisions are allocated from the army, from the fleet - most of the forces of the United Fleet;
      c) The operation is carried out after the enemy’s forces stationed in India will be constrained in the West as a result of Germany’s successful actions in West Asia;
      d) the 38th and 48th divisions concentrate respectively on Northern Sumatra and on Fr. Java to prepare for landing operations in the tropics;

      Disembarkation two divisions against all the forces of Britain in India. Not constrained by any Germany’s successful actions in West Asia. Yes, and even without the support of the United Fleet, which is first occupied by Midway, then rakes up its consequences, and then gets into a meat grinder at Guadalcanal.

      The Japanese in SEA with ground units had a real fifth point. In the same Anakim, the Japanese did not defend themselves against the British division from a good life — there simply were no more forces. And they were saved only by the fact that the limes could not provide for the offensive in the jungle.
  • Kostadinov 6 February 2020 18: 35 New
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    It is impossible to pinpoint the effect of the bombing due to the state of terrible chaos in which Japan found itself by August 1945. Over 30% of our aviation industry has been seriously affected. These attacks led to a reduction in production by 7000 aircraft per year. Towards the end of the war, the bombing caused disruptions in the production of high-octane gasoline.

    And I thought that the Japanese had lost much more by August 1945. If 7000 aircraft were 30%, then their production dropped to 16 thousand aircraft per year.
    And they not only made propeller planes. They beat, for example, a copy of Me-262 and human control a copy of German Fau-1. By the way, they don’t have propellers and they don’t consume gasoline.
    An important problem was the provision of new compounds with weapons and military equipment; the available reserves made it possible to provide new formations with rifles by 50%, light machine guns by 23%, field artillery by 28%, anti-tank artillery by 74%, and mountain artillery by 75%.

    This is only the stocks available and only for new compounds. And how many weapons were produced in 1945, including mortars, MLRS, counter-attack grenade launchers, and so on? And their old formations were beaten in a hack, their army was at war only in China.
    The aviation units included about 10 thousand aircraft, of which 75% were training, converted into attack aircraft. © Takushiro Hattori
    So, out of the "paper" ten thousand combat aircraft, in fact only two and a half thousand are combat, and another seven and a half thousand are "flying targets."

    These paper and textbooks were great for kamikaze. Intercepting them at night was no easier than Po-2.
    1. Alexey RA 6 February 2020 20: 50 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      And they not only made propeller planes. They beat, for example, a copy of Me-262 and human control a copy of German Fau-1. By the way, they don’t have propellers and they don’t consume gasoline.

      What's the point? Fuel supply decreased by 80%. What will we fly on?
      Oil was delivered from the southern regions in 1942 - 1420 thousand cells; in 1943 - 2610, in 1944 (planned) —1500 thousand cells. In 1942, in addition, it was possible to fully satisfy the needs of the stocks. Prospects in the supply of liquid fuel for 1945 (subject to the cessation of delivery from the southern regions and subject to the total mobilization of resources within the country) - 400-450 thousand cells. In 1944, the needs of the civilian population were provided by 50%.

      Possibilities of maritime transport. From the beginning of the war until July 1942, 2090 thousand grossstones were built, losses - 4,5 million tons. Thus, the losses are 2,5 times higher than the replacement due to new shipbuilding.

      And most importantly - what to learn to fly? Where to get gas for preparation? “Disposable pilots” will not work - American “newcomers” will come out against them with 200 hours of flying time.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      This is only the stocks available and only for new compounds. And how many weapons were produced in 1945, including mortars, MLRS, counter-attack grenade launchers, and so on?

      What to produce and how - in 1945 the B-29s switched to bombing of medium and small cities, while naval aircraft frolic in the coastal zone, storming railways and ordinary roads. It even came to shelling the coastal railway from submarines.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And their old formations were beaten in a hack, their army was at war only in China.

      Look at the map of the deployment of land forces in Japan at Hattori. There, most of the divisions are the "two hundredth" and beyond, the brainchild of mobilization of 1944-1945. Old divisions with numbers "less than a hundred" - a pair of pieces per defense area.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      These paper and textbooks were great for kamikaze. Intercepting them at night was no easier than Po-2.

      And whom will they beat at night? Really try to find AUG in the ocean? smile
      Moreover, they will make large airdromes almost immediately - the Americans worked it out in the Philippines. And from temporary sites, neither guidance nor massaging of the strike can be achieved.
  • Fat
    Fat 6 February 2020 18: 40 New
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    Sorry, Timur. But to me personally. Your article seemed superficial. And, as it seemed to me, it was very selectively "knocked out" for the episode. To think further. The natives were beaten .... But somehow the Bombs could not do without ..
  • Kostadinov 7 February 2020 11: 46 New
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    Do not confuse 1942 and 1945
    In 1942, the B-17 was an extremely difficult goal even for the naval with their cannon fighters. About army men with their machine-gun Ki-43 or even Ki-27 I do not speak.

    But about Ki-45 did you score, not to mention the Ki-61? And they have been in units since 1941.
    About 100 army aircraft, about 200 naval aircraft, about 500 ground artillery barrels and about 200 naval anti-aircraft artillery barrels were allocated for Japanese air defense. These forces completed the formation and were trained.

    This is quite a lot of 300 fighters and 700 guns. Better than the Romanian air defense in August 1943. And we know how the bombing of Ploiesti ended on August 1, 1943. At that time, no planes were still flying over Japan. And if such could appear, more fighters and more cannons could hit, and the Japanese had enough pilots for rams with a hack.
    So you yourself write. that the B-17s in Europe were meat. That is, instead of meaningless death in Europe, they had a chance in the Far East to bring benefits.

    Without the Mustangs, they beat meat in Europe and the same could have done in Japan. But their death didn’t beat them completely without number. They distracted fighters and guns from the fronts for air defense.
    Quote: Kostadinov
    Why not? What prevented Ceylon from occupying and engaged in the "liberation" of the Middle East, Iran and India in 1942, together with Romel and the Italian fleet?
    What got in the way? Lack of own forces and conditions for the operation.
    The landing of two divisions against all the forces of Britain in India. Not constrained by any successful German actions in West Asia. Yes, and even without the support of the United Fleet, which is first occupied by Midway, then rakes up its consequences, and then gets into a meat grinder at Guadalcanal.

    And why only two divisions without the United Fleet. They could go to Ceylon instead of Midway.
    And what kind of mighty British power was beating in India and the Middle East? Those 35 thousand who surrendered in Tobruk by the Italians? Or are those 80 thousand who surrendered in Singapore to three Japanese divisions?
    The Japanese in SEA with ground units had a real fifth point

    Two-thirds of the Japanese ground forces stood the whole war doing nothing in the metropolis and you have a fifth point?
  • Kostadinov 7 February 2020 12: 24 New
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    [quote] [quote = Alexey RA] [quote = Kostadinov] And they not only made airplanes with propellers. They beat, for example, a copy of Me-262 and human control a copy of German Fau-1. By the way, they don’t have propellers and they don’t consume gasoline. [/ Quote]
    What's the point? Fuel supply decreased by 80%. What will we fly on? [/ Quote]
    A guided copy of the V-1 company Kavanishi and all other kamikaze flew in battle only once. And they had very few training flights and were very short. They also consumed fuel an order of magnitude less so that 20% was enough with a hack.
    [quote] Prospects for the supply of liquid fuel for 1945 (subject to the cessation of delivery from the southern regions and subject to the total mobilization of resources within the country) - 400-450 thousand cells. In 1944, the needs of the civilian population were provided by 50%. [/ Quote]
    400 thousand tons only liquid fuel is not so bad. The civilian population can do without it.
    [quote] Opportunities for maritime transport. From the beginning of the war and until July 1942, 2090 thousand grossstones were built, losses - 4,5 million tons. Thus, losses are 2,5 times higher than replenishment due to new shipbuilding. [/ Quote]
    How much is left? And their communication at the end was reduced to the extreme waters of Korea and Japan by orders of magnitude.
    [quote] And most importantly - what to learn to fly? Where to get gas for preparation? “Disposable pilots” will not work - American “newcomers” will come out against them with 200 hours of flight. [/ Quote]
    Disposable pilots passed very well on ordinary combat aircraft and through the Americans from 2000 hours of flight and through anti-aircraft guns and fell well into American ships. There are statistics on this issue. And in the end, they already realized that on the “book” training planes they would go even better through these American Rambovites in the air.
    [quote] From what to produce and how - in 1945 the B-29s switched to bombing of medium and small cities, while naval aircraft frolic in the coastal zone, storming railways and ordinary roads. It even came to shelling coastal railways from submarines. [/ Quote]
    And what was the use of these bombing villages and shelling roads and even submarines. And why submarines, and not battleships and cruisers, what were you afraid of? There are statistics about what weapons, planes, boats, guns, minimotiv, RS ammunition, produced in Japan in 1945. There are statistics about what losses the Americans suffered.
    [quote] See a map of the deployment of ground forces in Japan at Hattori. There, most of the divisions are the "two hundredth" and beyond, the brainchild of mobilization of 1944-1945. Old divisions with numbers "less than a hundred" - a pair of pieces per defense area. [/ Quote]
    What does the old division mean - pre-war or what? The main thing is that all their divisions in the metropolis did not fight a whole war. They have insignificant losses, full strength and all stockpiles of weapons and ammunition untouched.
    [quote = Kostadinov] These paper and textbooks were great for kamikaze. Intercepting them at night was no easier than Po-2. [/ Quote]
    And whom will they beat at night? Really try to find AUG in the ocean? smile
    Moreover, they will make large airdromes almost immediately - the Americans worked it out in the Philippines. And from temporary sites, neither guidance nor massaging of the strike can be achieved.
    1. Kostadinov 7 February 2020 13: 04 New
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      No problems.
  • Kostadinov 7 February 2020 17: 35 New
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    And whom will they beat at night? Really try to find AUG in the ocean? smile
    Moreover, they will make large airdromes almost immediately - the Americans worked it out in the Philippines. And from temporary sites, neither guidance nor massaging of the strike can be achieved.

    A single wooden-linen training biplane was drowned on July 29.07.1945, 792 by the destroyer Kalakhan (DD-47), XNUMX of his crew were killed.
  • Doliva63 9 February 2020 17: 14 New
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    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Doliva63
    I remember that at the station in Potsdam, Germans in red berets sat down at the next table, ordered beer.

    I liked to take fried sausages for beer at the bus station in Potsdam - there were the best in the entire GDR. I have visited Potsdam more than once - a good and comfortable city.

    I remember the Potsdam “Bazenplatz” from childhood when the long-set Icarus walked from it. drinks
  • However, dear 9 February 2020 21: 50 New
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    Quote: ccsr
    The answer is simple and incorrect - the communist ideas that have seized the masses of people themselves constitute a threat to capitalism.


    The Chinese received help from the United States to recover from WWII, despite their communism, because they did not pose a threat, and the Soviet commies at that time were waging a cold war with the West, and accordingly, they received no "help" from the United States. This is the correct answer.
  • However, dear 11 February 2020 01: 41 New
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    Quote: ccsr
    There is no thin policy now - there is our brute force, as indeed before, and from this we must build relations with all countries, because flirting with the pygmies did not lead to anything good.


    In order to survive - yes, but in order to live well one brute force is clearly not enough. Yes, and the Pygmies are not the same today. They get together and it turns out NATO. smile But you can’t argue against NATO with brute force. So smart politics is an important thing.