Chinese sources about the Mongol Tatars

85
I was seen and the sea and the mountains in the battle
with numerous knights of Turan.
What did I do - the star is my witness!
Rashid ad-Din. "Jami 'at-tavarikh"


Contemporaries of the Mongols.
Among the many sources of information about the conquests of the Mongols, the Chinese occupy a special place. But it should be emphasized that there are a lot of them. There are Mongolian, Chinese, Arab, Persian, Armenian, Georgian, Byzantine (yes, there are such!), Serbian, Bulgarian, Polish sources. There are also burials in which characteristic arrowheads and other weapons are found. Only one Penza Zolotarevka is worth, how much has everything been found and continues to find ...




Fight of the Mongolian horse units. Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)


Chinese sources report ...


After Persian sources we turn to Chinese sources. In theory, it should be the other way around, but the book by Rashid ad-Din is already very well written, and besides, I came across the first one, which is why we started with it.

Sources of Chinese authors are also very interesting. And not only can they give their researchers a very extensive material on stories both Chinese and Mongolian peoples, but allow many details to clarify. In particular, the evidence of the same Persian and Arab chroniclers. That is, we are dealing with cross-references to the same event, which, of course, is very important for the historian. At present, the value of Chinese sources containing information about Mongolia of the XIII century and other countries of the empire of Genghis Khan is generally recognized. Another thing is that our Russian researchers find it difficult to study. You need to know Chinese and Uygur languages, and at that time, you need to have access to these sources, so that there access is trivial money to live in China and have the opportunity to work with them. And the same goes for the possibility of working in the Vatican library. You need to know medieval Latin and ... it’s commonplace to have money, pay for food and accommodation. And the outright poverty of our scholars historians simply does not allow all this. Therefore, one has to be content with earlier translations and with what was done in a centralized manner by historians of the RAS RAS, as well as translations of European researchers in their own languages, which ... also need to know and know well!

Chinese sources about the Mongol Tatars

Page "The Secret Legends of the Mongols." In the left columns is the Chinese transcription of the Mongolian language, and in the right - a translation into Chinese and a glossary. China, 1908


Moreover, if the works of Plano Karpini, Guillaume Rubruk and Marco Polo were repeatedly published in many different languages, then books in Chinese are practically inaccessible to the general mass of readers. That is - "they simply do not exist." That is why many people say that, no, they say, there are no sources on the history of the Mongols. Although in reality they exist.

Let's start with the fact that the oldest known today essay, which is specifically devoted to the Mongols, is "Men-da Bei-lu" (or translated as "Full description of the Mongol-Tatars"). This is a note by the Ambassador of the Empire of Song or Song Chao, a state in China that existed from 960 to 1279 for the year and fell under the blows of the Mongols. And not just Song, but Southern Song - since the history of Song is divided into the Northern and Southern periods, associated with the transfer of the capital of the state from north to south, where it was transferred after the conquest of northern China by the Jurchen in 1127 year. South Song fought them first, and then the Mongols, but they were conquered by the year of 1280.


Battle of Badr. A miniature from the manuscript of "Jami 'at-tavarih" 1653 (Topkapi Museum).


Ambassadors Spies and Monks Travelers


In this note, Zhao Hong, the South Korean ambassador to northern China, who was already under the rule of the Mongols at that time, informs his superiors in detail about everything that he saw there and that at least had some significance. The note was written in 1221 year. The presentation is clearly structured and divided into small domes: “Establishment of the state”, “Beginning of the elevation of the Tatar ruler”, “Name of the dynasty and years of government”, “Princes and princes”, “Generals and honored officials”, “Trusted ministers”, “Military affairs "," Horse breeding "," Provisions "," Military campaigns "," Position system "," Manners and customs "," Military equipment and weapon, Ambassadors, Sacrifices, Women, Feasts, Dances, and Music. That is, we have the very real “spy report” in which its author described almost all aspects of the life of the Mongols. He also reports important information about Mukhali, the governor of Genghis Khan in North China and his closest circle. Among other things, from this message, we can learn that the Mongols on the ground widely attracted local cadres of Chinese officials and those ... actively collaborated with the conquerors!

Meng da Bey lu was translated into Russian as early as 1859 by V.P. Vasilyev and was widely used by Russian historians who wrote about the Mongols. But today we need a new translation, which would be deprived of the identified shortcomings.

The second valuable source is “Chang-chun jen-jen si-yu ji” (“Note on the journey to the West of the righteous man of Chang-chun”) or simply “si yu chi”. This is a travel diary of the Taoist monk Qiu Chu-ji (1148 — 1227), who is better known as Chang-chun. He was led by one of his students, Li Chih-chan.

It was discovered in 1791, and it was first published in 1848. The diary contains observations on the life of the population of those countries that visited Chang-chun with their students, including Mongolia.


Honoring the Mongol ruler. A miniature from the manuscript of Jami 'at-Tavarih (State Library, Berlin).


“Hay-da Shi-lue” (“Brief Information about Black Tatars”) - this source also represents travel notes, but only two Chinese diplomats. One was called Peng Da-ya, the other was Xu Ting. They were members of the diplomatic missions of the state of Southern Song and visited Mongolia and the court of Khan Ogedei. Returning back, Xu Ting edited these travel notes in 1237, however, they did not reach us in their original form, but came to the editorial offices of some Yal Tzu 1557 of the year published in 1908. Messages of these two travelers cover a wide range of issues, including the economic life of the Mongols, their appearance, the life of the nobility and court etiquette. They also described the hunt by the Mongols, noting that this is a good preparation for war. Xu Ting talks in great detail about the crafts of the Mongols and, quite understandably, the recruitment of Mongolian troops, their weapons, describes their military tactics, that is, these so-called "ambassadors" not only performed their representative functions, but also collected intelligence information , but it must always be very accurate.

“Sheng-u qin-cheng lu” (“Description of personal campaigns of the sacred-militant [emperor Chinggis]”) a source relating to the epoch of government of both Genghis Khan and Ugdei. Found it at the end of the XVIII century, but because of the complexity of the translation from the language of the XIII century for a long time did not pay much attention. As a result, it was prepared for publication only in 1925 - 1926, and extensive comments were made on the translation. However, this source has not yet been fully translated into Russian, and therefore has not been fully investigated!


Ilhan. A miniature from the manuscript of Jami 'at-Tavarih (State Library, Berlin).


The most important Mongolian source!


“Mongol-un niucha tobchan” (“The Secret Legend of the Mongols” - the most important source on the early history of the Mongols, the discovery of which was closely related to Chinese historiography. Initially, the “Legend ...” was written with the help of the Uygur alphabet borrowed by the Mongols in the early XIII century. but it came to us in writing in Chinese characters and with an interlinear translation of all Mongolian words and a shortened translation of all its parts already into Chinese. This source is very interesting, but also very complex for a number of reasons. To argue that everything is discussed in it, starting from the question of authorship and the date of writing and right up to the very name. There is a debate among specialists and a question whether it is a complete work or is it only part of a larger work and whether it appeared before or after Khan Udegeya. So today, even the date of writing this document requires additional research involving all well-known Chinese and Korean, as well as Persian sources, which, of course, can be done only by a large team of specialists by means of medication. The content of this monument itself gives grounds to believe that it was written (or recorded) in the form of the story of one of the old nukers of Genghis Khan, made in the year of “Mouse” (according to the Mongolian calendar) during a kurultai on the r. Kerulen. And for some reason this kurultay was not recorded in official sources. Interestingly, indirectly, this indicates its authenticity. Since all the dates of the kurultais are known, it would be easiest to be if it were a fake, attach it to one of them, which, however, was not done. But the exact dating is perhaps the most important task of any falsifier, and why it is so clear without much discussion. By the way, the translation by A.S. Kozina (1941) in Russian on the Internet is available ...


Khubilai Khan's letter to the shogun of Japan, dated 8 in the month of 1266. (Tadai-ji, Nara, Japan)


In China, the “Secret Legend of the Mongols” has long been retained as part of the “Yun-le da Dian”. It was an extensive compilation of 60 chapters in the table of contents and 22 877 chapters directly in the text of the works of various ancient and medieval authors, which was compiled in Nanjing in 1403 - 1408. Many chapters of this work died in Beijing in 1900, during the “Boxer Rebellion,” but the Russian Sinology researcher P. I. Kafarov acquired separate lists of this document in 1872, and then translated it into Russian. And in 1933, he was returned to China in the form of a photocopy from the original, which is now kept in the Eastern Department of the Gorky Scientific Library at Leningrad University. However, only after the Second World War, this document became widespread in the world scientific community. By the way, the first complete translation into English was made by Francis Woodman Cleaves only in 1982. However, in English the name of this source sounds not so vividly, but in a much more prosaic way - “The Secret History of the Mongols”.


Khubilai, Emperor of the Mongol Yuan Empire (1215-1294)


Legal documents


The time of the Mongolian domination in China left a large number of purely legal documents that are now combined into collections: “Yes Yuan sheng-cheng go-chao dian-chang” - an abbreviated version of “Yuan dian-chang” (“Establishment of the Yuan dynasty”) and “Tung-chzhi chao-ge” - again two large compilations of a multitude of works. Their exact dating is unknown, but the first one consists of documents 1260 - 1320, and the second one that appeared in 1321 - 1322. P. Kafarov met Yuan Dian-Zhang as early as 1872, but his photolithographic publication was carried out in China only in 1957. Accordingly, “Tung-chih tayo-ge” is a collection of Mongolian laws from 1323. It was published in China as early as 1930. It is clear that such primary sources are very valuable material for everyone studying the era of Mongolian rule in China.


The strife among the Mongols. Some Mongols drive others. A miniature from the manuscript of Jami 'at-Tavarih (State Library, Berlin).


On this, perhaps, it is worthwhile to dwell here, because the mere listing of all other Chinese documents on the history of the Mongols translates, if not a monograph, then into an article of so large a volume that it will simply be uninteresting for non-specialists to read. But it is important that there are many, very many such sources - hundreds of thousands of pages in different years, which is confirmed by cross-references and the content of the texts themselves. However, these documents are very difficult to study. You need to know Chinese and not just Chinese, but XIII century Chinese, and preferably also Uighur language of the same time. And who today and for what money will all this study meet in Russia, and most importantly - why! So insinuations regarding other Chinese sources, not to mention Mongolian, will continue in the future. After all, "she feeds on fables" ...

Использованная литература:
1. History of the East (in 6 t.). T. II. East in the middle ages. Moscow, publishing company "Oriental Literature" RAS, 2002.
2. Khrapachevsky P.P. Genghis Khan's Military Power. Moscow, publishing house "AST", 2005.
3. Rossabi M. Golden Age of the Mongol Empire. SPb .: Eurasia, 2009.
4. Chinese source of the first Mongol khans. The gravestone inscription on the grave of Ye-lii Chu-Cai. M .: Science, 1965.
5. Cleaves, FW, trans. The Secret History of the Mongols. Cambridge and London: Published for the Harvard-Yenching Institute by Harvard University Press, 1982.


To be continued ...
85 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +20
    4 June 2019 18: 09
    Chinese sources are one of the most important, quite right
    1. +3
      5 June 2019 16: 02
      Abroad will help us. Abroad, there is everything that we do not have.
      And like that all the time "abroad"; "abroad"; "abroad".
      Where did this very Meng-da bey-lu come from "abroad" ??
      “Men-da bei-lu” has come down to us as part of “Sho-fu” - an extensive collection of works by various authors compiled by Tao Zong-i in 1370, and “Gu-jin sho-hai” - the same compilation of 1544 ., in which “Men-da bei-lu” was reprinted with “Sho-fu”.
      Moreover, it goes without saying that only certain parts of the compilation of 1544 reached the time of historical materialism.
      Who is the author is also a god news. Both in Chinese literature and in other languages ​​for a long time since the XIV century. authorship of “Men-da Bei Lu” attributed to Meng Hunu (***). Indeed, during the Southern Suns, a prominent official and military commander Meng Hong (1195–1244), whose biography was subsequently included in the Song Shi (History of the (Song Dynasty) Song), held various important posts. But, judging by his biography, he had no relation to the embassies sent by the Southern Suns to the Mongols, but in the text “Men-da bei-lu” the author calls himself Hun. By assumption Wang Guo-wei, this is precisely the reason why Meng Hoon was mistakenly (or maybe not mistaken?) Considered the author of "Meng da Bei Lu." In other words, the compiler of the Sho-fu compilation, which included Meng da Bei Lu, Tao Zong-i made Meng Hoon the author of Meng da Bei Lu.
      Is he, obviously suggestedthat the well-known official Meng Hong, who lived during the times indicated in the text of the essay, could be sent to the Mongols as an ambassador and, therefore, was the author of “Men-da bei-lu”. In fact, according to the report by the South Sun writer Zhou Mi in the composition “Qi-dong e-yu” (“Informal Conversations in Qidong”), it was not Meng Hong, but Zhao Hong who was sent on a mission to the Mongolian Commander-in-Chief of the forces in Northern China, Mukhali, commander by the South Sun troops in Huaidong, Jia She returned to South China on the 7th moon of the 14th year of the reign of Jia-ding (July 21 - August 18, 1221). In other words, the name of Zhao Hong (Hong) and the date of his trip to Northern China (1221) coincide with the name of the author “Men-da bei-lu” and the year of his journey to the Mongols. On this basis, Wang Guo-wei rightly suggests that the author of “Meng da Bei Lu” is not Meng Hong, but most likely Zhao Hong. This tpoint of view was supported P. Pellio.

      One "authority" suggested that the author is this and that. Another authority supported the first. And everything seems to be "established the truth". And in fact, just two authorities have found a consensus. Between themselves.
      And are they right or wrong - the tenth matter.
      That is, the so-called "Chinese sources" are no better than any others.
      Originals have not reached us.
      What came of the 16th century.
      We have to agree on authorship.
    2. +1
      5 June 2019 19: 40
      Quote: Heavy Division
      Chinese sources are one of the most important, quite right

      Agas. Open the textbook "History of China" edited by Meliksentov. There it is indicated in black in Russian, on the first page, upon accession to the throne of a new dynasty, the previous history of the country was rewritten. So yes. Chinese fakes are a very valuable source. Yes
      1. -1
        13 June 2019 16: 22
        Exactly! Chinese "sources" which are now passed off as indescribable antiquity, remakes of the 16-17th centuries, made by the hard-working hands of the Jesuits. After the defeat of the order, these guys were in no hurry to return to Europe and stayed in China. They had names in Chinese, taught the "ancient civilization" many sciences - the Chinese should have erected a monument to them!
        This happened at about the same time as the census of European sources (after which the originals were lost, but by a strange coincidence, it was exactly COPIES).
        In Russia, the process of destroying ancient sources began with the accession of the Romanovs and took on a finished form through the efforts of GERMAN "historians of Slavism and the Russian state" (see how it sounds!) In the 18th century in the newly formed Academy of Sciences.
        And even about translations from complex, old and half-forgotten languages, there is no need to speak.
        The main thing in all this - to check the correspondence of the transmitted text to the original - is impossible!
        Knowing all this, admiration for the "antiquity of Chinese wisdom" looks a little sad ...
  2. +11
    4 June 2019 18: 14
    After all, "she feeds on fables" ...

    Better not tell. as they say about brevity?
    Excellent exhaustive article.
  3. +8
    4 June 2019 18: 18
    I wanted to add. It was in a number of key historical museums in China, alas, the collections are sharply inferior to those in Europe, everything has been removed. About the same Mongols, little can be found, and if there is, it is separated by 200-300 years. Who writes that now in China we will find artifacts, he is mistaken, for the same weapons - more in the State Hermitage Museum.
  4. +3
    4 June 2019 18: 24
    Bravo, Vyacheslav Olegovich! This is the hardest part in the historiography of the Mongols.
    But I will be insidious. About a year and a half ago, you promised to talk about identification marks of distinction and, accordingly, the control system of the Mongolian army. Where?
    1. +5
      4 June 2019 18: 43
      So, dear Anton, all this is in one of Nicolas's works, it seems it is called "Attila and the hordes of nomads" and I have it. But ... even then there was an idea to give a cycle on the soldiers of all countries and peoples. And only now he started, as you can see for yourself. And for now, while I am still within the framework of the FIRST VOLUME. It has 680 pages. In it there is no Rus, no Mongolia ... this is the SECOND VOLUME. Let's finish with the first (and still have to be distracted by other topics !!!), then!
      1. +3
        4 June 2019 18: 50
        Yes, okay, okay, I asked between the case ...
        1. +2
          4 June 2019 19: 07
          You have every right!
      2. +2
        4 June 2019 20: 20
        The winners and / or the most sneaky write the story ...)))
        About the Tatars, the topic is not disclosed recourse
        Peoples-countries are usually called as he calls himself in sound transcription in any language ... *
        China itself at the beginning of the 20th century became China as such in our time ** .., and before that, from the state of Yao to the state of Qin ***
        There were Huns ... the Mongols disappeared, and here the Mongols ... By the way, according to Max Fasmer’s etymological dictionary moŋgul, mo mgol comes from moŋg, i.e. Brave ...), and there were Baburids from the Mughal Empire
        It turns out that only the brave men attacked ... (in fact, those who remained after the state (?) Of the Huns (or in Chinese the Huns) (also an interesting topic, that the "historians" of the Huns in Europe overpowered recently, and where are the "roots"? Attila, what did you give the eastern lands to the Chinese?) ...
        ...........
        * In Russia, all nationalities who do not understand their language were called Germans, not only in the west but also in the east .., Tatars in the east appeared much later (before they were Germans drinks ))
        ** China-word ... I am inclined nevertheless to the fact that fenced off (behind the wall-fence) was called earlier in the old Russian "whale" .., I am inclined to believe that when the Russian nouveau riche traded with that area (behind the Great Wall of China ) and they called it China (and who and what state was there ... to the light ...)
        *** About the Qin Dynasty, the West is still the covenant of China
        1. 0
          8 June 2019 09: 07
          It is worth adding to your list that "Chinese" is a Russian word, hereinafter "merchant". "Chinese Wall" in Moscow - merchant ranks.
          Like the name of the country, China is Russian. The Chinese call themselves both Chin and the country. And not Qin.
  5. +5
    4 June 2019 18: 26
    Excellent article! Thank! hi
    1. +4
      4 June 2019 19: 20
      Come on! Here is a rare guest in our centuries-old battles! My respect (except for jokes), Andrew!
      1. +10
        4 June 2019 20: 51
        Anton, hello!
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Here is a rare guest in our long-standing battles!

        Yes :)))) And the point here is not even that this is not my profile, but the fact that I very carefully study such relatively recent historical events as RIAW and WWII, I see a number of serious questions (yes, here are the same losses Wehrmacht, for example) which will never be given an exact answer. Because despite hundreds of tons of documents, eyewitness accounts, etc. information is simply lost or not collected initially.
        That is, even with regard to recent historical events, perfectly well documented from all acting sides, there are so many questions that after 30 years of studying the issue it is time to shout "I only know that I know nothing!"
        I am interested in ancient history. But how would you try to understand the events that happened several hundred years ago, the documentary base for which is either absent or extremely doubtful, since everything is at the level of documented rumors? One unfortunate Rurik probably already, 100500 once turned over in his mound, as we discuss it :))))))
        Therefore, I do not climb into this jungle, but to the people who undertake to understand them - I respectfully. And again - for example, I did not know that the Mongol-Chinese "relationship" is so well documented. And now I know why I thank Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        1. +2
          4 June 2019 21: 40
          Andrey, I am now going to ask an extremely seditious question among the "tradiks" (to which I rank myself). Have you ever thought that History is not a rigidly determined substance?
          1. +1
            4 June 2019 23: 01
            I'll get in. Is this a Fantastic Saga ad again?

            On this topic. In nature, there is discreteness and continuity.
            Their combination allows miracles to happen.

            Around the same place takes place in history.

            Although all this is better in simple words.
          2. +2
            5 June 2019 06: 45
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Did the thought come to you that History is not a strictly deterministic substance?

            Oh, oh :)))) Your question should be written in a separate article, but let me ask you - what do you mean by determinism? Yet the classical definition of determinism implies a universal causality caused by the will of God or the laws of human development, society, nature, or something else, or all of this together :)))) Personally, I do not really believe in such determinism.
            In nature, everything is balanced, everything tends to balance. So, in my opinion, the laws of nature, society, development, etc. counterbalanced by free human will, and History is created in the struggle of these two opposites. All this is IMHO, of course, I'm not trying to postulate the Universal Truth at all, we just exchange opinions, don’t we?
            However, the fact is that regardless of what creates History - determinism, or the anarchy of human will, or all this together, we are talking about the processes that create the future. Determinism postulates its predetermination, my point of view is the lack thereof
            Why, for example, did Kurita steal his battleships when he almost broke through to the site of the American landing at the Battle of Leyte Gulf? Whether it was a manifestation of his free will, or the impact of some laws of the universe, regardless of this, the Japanese admiral created the Future, which, as it began, became history.
            Thus, I do not quite understand the formulation of the question - I think that only the future can be deterministic (and no, I do not consider it rigidly deterministic), but how can what has already happened and always be determined? It is, the way it is.
            Is it possible to change the story?
            From the point of view of our knowledge, this is unrealistic, because if History is changeable, then it exists as a thing, and not as a phantom of our memories. But if it is a thing, it means that there is not only the past, but also the future, and besides, then the laws of physics will extend to all of this. That is, to change a certain point of history it is necessary to make efforts = to change not only the history itself, but the whole future, and since the future is infinite, the change of history requires an infinite effort and is impossible.
            On the other hand, after wave-particle duality, I was forever disillusioned with physics laughing
            In other words, all of the above is true for 2 assumptions:
            1) The future exists (you can imagine that there is only the past), but there are many questionable nuances
            2) We correctly understand the physics of the processes of the universe (which is almost certainly wrong).
            And therefore I can only ask once again - what do you mean by determinism in this case?
            1. 0
              5 June 2019 06: 50
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              What do you mean by determinism in this case?

              Well, you also bent. Can I ask? Write how the Vikings stormed London. "Falling, Falling London Bridge" wink
              1. +2
                5 June 2019 06: 55
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                Well, you and bent.

                Well, that was the question :)))))
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                Write how the London Vikings stormed.

                It’s still not for me :) I don’t know this period well and there will be a terribly spreading cranberry
                1. 0
                  5 June 2019 07: 00
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  I do not know this period well and it will be terribly spreading cranberries

                  I'll have to take it myself. But I do not speak foreign languages, so the fig will not work crying And the Viking Age was somewhere from 900 to 1100 for a year, if I don't get sclerosis.
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2019 07: 04
                    Vashchenko promised a cycle about the history of the Normans.
                    1. +1
                      5 June 2019 07: 06
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      Vashchenko

                      And who is this? Why dont know? recourse
                      1. +2
                        5 June 2019 07: 26
                        The author, candidate of historical sciences, on the site since the beginning of March. Type in a search engine site.
                      2. 0
                        5 June 2019 07: 32
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        The author, candidate of historical sciences, on the site since the beginning of March. Type in a search engine site.

                        There are many of them.
                      3. +1
                        5 June 2019 10: 44
                        Pancake! In the search engine IN! Vashchenko Eduard.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                  2. +3
                    5 June 2019 08: 32
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    I'll have to take it myself. But I do not speak foreign languages, so the fig will not work

                    Taking into account the fact that I still have not figured out whether the Vikings wore horned helmets, or whether their horns grew straight out of the skull, and the helmets were just dressed from above - you will in any case get better laughing hi
                    1. 0
                      5 June 2019 08: 39
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      you will get better anyway

                      Oh nafig. If I take Marishka Semenov as a basis, then not a damn thing will come out .. crying
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      their horns grew straight from their skulls,

                      Where did you get that? Wow, more about the Blood Eagle will tell the bike. As the ribs on the back turned out, and the lungs threw on his shoulders.
                      1. +2
                        5 June 2019 08: 40
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Where did you get that?

                        Nuuuu, you can't joke too :)))))
                      2. +1
                        5 June 2019 08: 46
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Nuuuu, it’s impossible to joke:

                        You can! And yet the Viking era has not been revealed. As one newspaper was indignant: "When we gouged the runes, Russian letters were written to each other." This is when the birch bark letters were shown at the Copenganen Museum.
            2. 0
              5 June 2019 06: 55
              Thank you for the detailed answer. hi If you do not mind, in turn, I will write in the evening (over the past 10 hours problems have piled up).
              1. +3
                5 June 2019 06: 56
                No problem, now it’s time for me to work too :)
          3. 0
            8 June 2019 09: 21
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Did the thought come to you that History is not a strictly deterministic substance?

            It's funny Confucius offered the same to the conquered peoples.
            Problem: the story - real, and not interpreted by someone - climbs out all the time.
            And yet the author in vain denies knowingly documentary works, being carried away by knowingly artistic. In this case, the document is the "Golden Chronicle of Judy Khan". Well, the "Book of Kings".
            Since 1998-2002, the Novosibirsk Institute of History has been introducing new methods of excavating "materials of the dark ages", i.e. already decayed, but not yet petrified. Right, the materials from the excavations confirm Valishevsky's statement: "The Mongol-Tatars, like the yoke, were invented by French journalists in a series of articles dedicated to the tenth anniversary of the capture of Paris."
  6. +2
    4 June 2019 18: 58
    Vyacheslav O., the article is just - my respect. hi
    This year I planned to substantively ask the Mongols, it’s painful for me even about them, not to mention some of those who are alternatively gifted ... I don’t try to fill the gaps in my knowledge with immediate fantasy, what others sincerely wish, but the interest from it only increases. smile
    It is important that there are many, very many such sources - hundreds of thousands of pages over different years, which is confirmed by cross-references and the content of the texts themselves. However, these documents are very difficult to study. You need to know Chinese and not just Chinese, but XIII century Chinese, and preferably also Uighur language of the same time. And who today and for what money will all this study meet in Russia, and most importantly - why!

    The beginning was sincerely pleasing. This means that many discoveries, discussions, and disputes await us in the scientific community, which will be able (exclusively within the framework of science!) To somehow correct existing positions, and, in any case, blossom history with new details. But the question at the end of the quote is not clear. What do you mean "why"? Where does this pessimism come from?
    I also expect to read the latest research on this issue. smile
    1. +4
      4 June 2019 19: 26
      Good evening, Michael! Do not confuse alternativeists and folk. Moreover, there are common acquaintances among the former. Artyom will be upset.
      1. +3
        4 June 2019 20: 02
        Just join the above written comments! Vyacheslav Olegovich - thanks !!!
        Sincerely, Your Vlad!
        Dogs, dogs, something "partners" are not visible !!!
      2. +2
        4 June 2019 20: 09
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Do not confuse alternatives and folk.

        Greetings, Anton. hi
        I apologize if I wrongly offended anyone. "Alternatively gifted" in my understanding means people who consider alternative history to be a real reality, replacing their ignorance with their own (or other people's) fantasies. I am sure that, for example, our mutual friend Artyom would have a low opinion of people who would perceive his alternative constructions as an immutable truth and, foaming at the mouth, prove that everything that he has written is true.
        1. +2
          4 June 2019 20: 51
          I think he would first be flattered by such a high rating, and then he would laugh out loud.
      3. +4
        4 June 2019 20: 55
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Artyom will be upset.

        Nuuu, Artem is a highly adequate person, he obviously will not take the term "alternatively gifted" at his own expense :)))
        1. +2
          4 June 2019 21: 05
          You see what's the matter, Andrey, he is a pro, and I am an amateur (moreover, a very refined amateur, I have read The Rude Novel), so for a high-quality "alternative" I will "drown with all the money."
          1. +3
            4 June 2019 21: 09
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            therefore for a high-quality "alternative" I will "drown all the money."

            But who can be against it, I myself am an althistori regular in the past :)))) Now, unfortunately, there is not enough time, but my only book is just devoted to a little bit of an alternative Baltic fleet in a little bit to an alternative first world war :)))))
            In general, I know the historical alternatives, I love and respect. This is also because in order to write a high-quality alternative, you need to know VERY well the story that you undertake to rewrite :)))
            1. +2
              4 June 2019 21: 14
              Oh, how I agree with you here!
            2. +2
              4 June 2019 21: 18
              Yes exactly. Therefore, I have great respect for such people: Artyom, Anisimov, Martyanov ... In an amicable way, they envy that layer of knowledge in their luggage, which allows them to slightly "adjust" the story.
  7. +8
    4 June 2019 19: 04
    Uh ... And Samsonov once almost convinced me that the Mongols were Siberian Rus-Arians. So there everything was convincingly painted ... that the Rus, without understanding the relationship, Ryazan was taken from the Rus.
    But the Chinese sources ruined everything. sad
    1. +1
      4 June 2019 19: 09
      Alexey (Operator) is very well written about the haplogroups and those and others. I hope he will honor us with his comment this time too.
      1. +2
        4 June 2019 19: 49
        The operator is Andrey.
    2. 0
      4 June 2019 19: 11
      Quote: voyaka uh
      And Samsonov once

      I do not remember how stupid I stopped reading the articles of this author. It was a long time ago. And what, he still writes about Slavic-Scythian-Siberian Russia? About the Rus of the boreal period? Or was it a pain?
      1. +2
        4 June 2019 19: 33
        You will not believe what he writes today! It takes bread from the good historian Oleinikov.
        1. 0
          4 June 2019 20: 05
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          You will not believe what he writes today! It takes bread from the good historian Oleinikov.


          Anton, be careful of the "friends" with cons and ban! No one has yet canceled the administrative resource, although you are right, but ......
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. +3
            4 June 2019 20: 09
            Yes and figs with him! Do I lose the fig to the marginal!
            1. 0
              4 June 2019 20: 15
              For the banned "Yrody" laughing, okay, so I will be for you "fat" mice from Pan's cellar to drag !!!
              1. +1
                4 June 2019 20: 25
                Well, I'm still revenge on the most staunch tin of soldiers. Or the most cunning tin soldier.
            2. +1
              4 June 2019 22: 57
              What about chains? Some kind of wrong proletariat.
        2. +2
          4 June 2019 20: 15
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          He takes the bread from a good historian Oleinikov.

          By the name of the articles can be seen. I don’t look beyond the names, but have the Russian-Aryans and Scytho-Slavs left this reality forever? Or there are still in the vast civil war?
          1. +3
            4 June 2019 20: 29
            No, they changed the coloworth to a red ribbon on hats.
      2. +6
        4 June 2019 19: 43
        Well, and we laugh at ukrami, we have enough of our own "sea of ​​diggers"! All this is sad!
    3. +2
      4 June 2019 19: 31
      Yeah, in Timna they also convinced me that ancient Jews mined copper there. And in Figeiros they said that Dali, the only person who Franco allowed to speak Catalan in his presence ...
      1. +4
        4 June 2019 20: 51
        "In Timna, I was also convinced that the ancient Jews mined copper there." ////
        ----
        The mines were developed by the Egyptians, of course. But ancient Jews, I think, something
        fell into the historically short period of Jewish independence.
        In any case, they found a wool shirt in some walled cave
        of that period. The time of Solomon David. In Egypt, these were not worn. I.e,
        Jews were present at this place.
  8. +2
    4 June 2019 20: 06
    We look forward to continuing!
    1. +1
      4 June 2019 21: 17
      Continuation on the Japanese sources is already written ... that time will tell further.
  9. +4
    4 June 2019 20: 11
    Quote: kalibr
    Alexey (Operator) is very well written about the haplogroup and those and others

    The Mongols have the dominant haplogroup С2, the Volga and Siberian Tatars - N1c1, the Khazars and the Crimean Tatars - Y2, the Bulgarians and the Bashkirs - R1b, and the Slavs - R1a.
    1. +2
      4 June 2019 21: 16
      Sorry, that with the name I messed up - the RAM began to fail.
      1. +2
        4 June 2019 21: 20
        Vyacheslav, you just have to trace the etymology of the name "Mongols" and all your opponents will be crushed laughing
  10. +14
    4 June 2019 20: 29
    In my opinion, at some stage, they even identified the Mongol and Chinese empires, and the motherland in any case is nearby ...
    1. +2
      4 June 2019 21: 32
      They were not identified by anyone, all the Chinese and non-Chinese states on the territory of Modern China were conquered successively, though not always at one time, the wars went on for 70 years. These countries were either completely destroyed by the root, like the Jinchen empire of Jin (the capital of Beijing) or the Tangut Xi Xia and Nanzhao or Dali. Or captured, like the Chinese state proper, referred to in the article, Southern Song, and given the scale of the country, local forces were involved in the control and the Chinese system of governance was used. But identification has never happened. In the Chinese tradition, the Mongol dynasty is the Yuan dynasty.
  11. +3
    4 June 2019 21: 49
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are a wonderful author and storyteller. AMAZING YOUR ABILITY TO SELECT AN EPIGRAPH AND ILLUSTRATIONS - ME.
    But be modest, because at the beginning even a tear was kicked out when they described the difficulties of your work. This is considered a small appearance.
    I have been and will remain committed to traditional history. Fomenko - A PARODIST OF HISTORY.
    I would have made him constantly clean and cook. Women know what pleasure it is
  12. 0
    4 June 2019 21: 55
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Just join the above written comments! Vyacheslav Olegovich - thanks !!!
    Sincerely, Your Vlad!
    Dogs, dogs, something "partners" are not visible !!!

    Don't worry they will fit
  13. +5
    4 June 2019 22: 05
    The article is about Chinese sources, and all illustrations are from Persian.

    Khan Khubilai on the hunt. Fragment. Painting by the court artist Liu Guangandao, 1280. Museum of the Imperial Palace, Taipei.
    1. +4
      4 June 2019 22: 09

      The same picture is complete.
  14. +1
    4 June 2019 22: 20
    I’m embarrassed to ask - why don’t we ask the Mongols?
    From the official point of view of the Mongols, there are no Tatars. About the word in general.
    Genghis Khan cut out. His drive Temuchin was very offended by them.
    Father poisoned. so that when it came into force, it cut everyone out to the root.
    Source - the official Mongolian series about the great Genghis Khan.
    He watched it personally (he was getting ready for another business trip, he taught local folklore).
  15. +1
    5 June 2019 00: 18
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    I wanted to add. It was in a number of key historical museums in China, alas, the collections are sharply inferior to those in Europe, everything has been removed. About the same Mongols, little can be found, and if there is, it is separated by 200-300 years. Who writes that now in China we will find artifacts, he is mistaken, for the same weapons - more in the State Hermitage Museum.


    We must take into account the periodic catastrophic loss of population and cultural property in China.
    Here is one example.
    The total population of China (Jin and Song) by the beginning of the XIII century. ranged from 100 to 110 million people.
    The census in the Yuan era of 1290 revealed only 59 million people (actually in the territory of the former states of Jin and Song). (McEvedy and Jones, R. 342-351)
    In the 1391 year, the taxable population of Yuan was 56,8 million people. Given the exorbitant population, this number is estimated at 60-80 million people. (Sprenkel OB van der. P. 326; Gurevich, S.71-72)
    Consequently, the total population decline in China was approximately 40-50 million people.
    The losses of Jin, conquered by the Mongols before 1227, amounted to at least 1 / 3 of the total losses of China, and this - with the most hyperctic approach - at least 10-13 million people.
    According to Yuan Shi, by the fall of 1215, the Mongols had defeated the 862 city of Jin

    General estimates are indirectly supported by data on the catastrophic decline in annual revenue of states. The annual income of the entire Yuan Empire was 12 million tributes, and Jin - 78 million tributes.
    More:
    Sprenkel OB van der. Population statitics in Ming China // Bulletin of the school of Oriental and African Studies. 1953. Vol. Xv. Pt.2.
    Mc Evedy Colin. Jones Richard. Atlas of World Population History. Harmondsworth., Penguin Books. 1978.
    Durand John D. The population statistics of China, AD 2 - 1953 // Populational Statistics. 1959-1960. Vol. 13.
  16. 0
    5 June 2019 01: 10
    It seems Deng Xiaoping or Jiang Zemin said that throughout the entire history of China 2 \ 3 its rulers were Türks. Northern peoples always, like an ax, hung over China. In Confucius’s verses, one constantly encounters sadness according to a friend who has left for a war to the North, then sadness is leaving for this war.
    The Turks were hated by the Chinese, as reckless violators of their centuries-old traditions and peace. But at the same time, the Türks always dissolved in the Chinese, unlike the Manchus, by the way.
    What am I talking about?
    The "Secret Legend of the Mongols", written in Chinese, found at the end of the 19th century could have been a falsification, which was so much among the Chinese, belittling the role of the Turks in the creation of the "Golden Horde". Forest people, relatives of the Tungus, who came to Kerulen after the departure of the Mongols, adopted their name and way of life and in an unexpected way, thanks to this manuscript, suddenly became descendants of the Horde, and this, by the way, was confirmed by the leading historians of Mongolia (there is an article in the Kazakhstanskaya Pravda, half a page . Interview of Mongolian historians by a Kazakh journalist. Unfortunately, I do not remember the date, but can be found).
  17. +4
    5 June 2019 01: 29
    Quote: Asan Ata
    It seems Deng Xiaoping or Jiang Zemin said that throughout the entire history of China 2 \ 3 its rulers were Türks. Northern peoples always, like an ax, hung over China. In Confucius’s verses, one constantly encounters sadness according to a friend who has left for a war to the North, then sadness is leaving for this war.
    The Turks were hated by the Chinese, as reckless violators of their centuries-old traditions and peace. But at the same time, the Türks always dissolved in the Chinese, unlike the Manchus, by the way.
    What am I talking about. (there is an article in Kazakhstan truth, half a page. Interview of Mongolian historians by a Kazakh journalist. Unfortunately, I do not remember the date, but can be found).


    Indeed, what are you talking about? In the days of Confucius, there were no Turks on the borders of China. Moreover, one should not refer to journalistic inventions about the alleged words of Chinese leaders.
    Considering the chauvinistic “Turkobesia” encouraged by the authorities in modern Kazakhstan (numerous opuses of Genghis Khan-Kazakh, etc.), the articles of journalists in your newspapers are usually nationalistic fantasies combined with uneducation, therefore they cannot have any evidence. even if you recall them.
  18. +2
    5 June 2019 07: 19
    Quote: Astra wild
    and cook. Women know what a pleasure.

    I often have to cook, or together with my wife, or even alone - to do what she does not know how. And I can say that it is a pleasure! Although, probably, if you cook every day, you will get bored. But ... neither she nor me is particularly bored! Here is my signature recipe "for strengthening the mind", if health allows. "Shpakovsky croutons". Take chunks of a dried loaf and dip them in water. Just in the water on both sides, but not to get wet! Previously, pieces of walnuts are stuck into them. A wet loaf is placed on granulated sugar, scattered on a plate and rolled in this sand. Then immediately in a frying pan in olive oil and fry until brown. Then remove and sprinkle with cinnamon! Serve with coffee or tea. An excellent recipe for treating unexpected guests. While they powder their noses, you have already done everything. I put bread right under the tap ...
  19. -4
    5 June 2019 08: 22
    Again "Mongol-Tatars". This is the same as saying "Russians and Nizhny Novgorod", for example. Tatars, like other tribes of the great steppe, were Mongols, although the word Mongol itself originally referred to several tribes. They simply did not yet have an understanding of their common identity. Genghis Khan instilled. Then the Tatars were almost completely destroyed. There were a few hundred men left who simply became slaves. No one remembered them as a people anymore. The word Tatars appeared later in Europe, presumably from the word Tartar. Like, "escaped from the tar-tar." So the Russians have expressions about tar-ta-ra-ry. And then, what's the point of talking about "European sources"? Where in Europe can there be sources about the East? Sources of disinformation only. They have always done this successfully.
    1. +3
      5 June 2019 10: 25
      Mongol-Tatars is a name commonly recognized in science. Or those who believe that Tatars are not Tatars and Mongols are not Mongols, think that professional historians who study this period and read, unlike amateurs, in the languages ​​of the sources, are not aware of the ups and downs of the "nomadic empire" in the Mongolian steppes and about complex ethnic processes?
      So you can talk about any "nomadic empire" or a large tribal education in the steppes, the Hungarians are not exactly Hungarians, the Khazars are not quite Khazars. The Huns are not Huns at all. For example, the archaeological Huns can be traced only after their appearance in the steppes of Eastern Europe and the Podunavia, there are no archaeological monuments behind the Don and the Volga, from the word "absolutely." Does this mean that there were no Huns, obviously not, it is just necessary to take into account the formation of “nomadic empires”, when any new nomadic tribe of “people of long will” “grows”, willy nilly, subject to nomadic tribes living in the areas of their movement. About “Avar” Theophylact Simokatta writes this way: they took upon themselves the name, terrible for Turks, Avar. In the eyes of authors who have come down to us from written sources, this is like a single tribe, few people delve into the history of the “barbarians”. In the end, all that we know about certain nomadic peoples, all from written sources. Including fiction lovers.
      The Mongols certainly included a huge number of different tribes, the Turkic element increased constantly, in the steppes of Eastern Europe, the Turks who were not destroyed or went to Russia and Hungary became the main participants of the Golden Horde, and took the name of the new conquerors.
      1. +1
        5 June 2019 12: 49
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        The Mongols certainly included a huge number of different tribes, the Turkic element was constantly increasing

        Good afternoon, Edward.
        I have already written on this site several times something similar in the comments and not only me. Once again, I am convinced that educational comments are read only by the one to whom they are directly addressed and rarely by someone else, like me now. It is a pity, since some of such comments, like yours, for example, are quite worthy of being made public to the widest possible circle of people.
        1. +2
          5 June 2019 13: 40
          Michael thanks, I support!
  20. +2
    5 June 2019 08: 44
    Quote: Alexander Trebuntsev
    Where in Europe can there be sources about the East? Sources of misinformation only.

    Alexander? What did you not read the article? Why then comment?
  21. +1
    5 June 2019 09: 43
    Interesting article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And it is significant that “alternatively gifted” opponents have not yet come running with their “wonderful discoveries”. Probably too much specifics))
  22. +1
    5 June 2019 20: 07
    the Chinese all came up with both gunpowder and rockets (which, according to Chinese sources, are doubtful), that they did not scatter the wild tribes (as the Fomenkovites say), why the Russian Pushkari met the Tatars and not vice versa, they had to learn or make the Chinese work for themselves , it’s not clear with our lists, and the Chinese who survived the shocks have no less than Russia all in openwork, but I won’t believe it, they really like to exaggerate their significance, for them we are still barbarians and you won’t read anything in their slanting eyes
  23. +1
    5 June 2019 20: 25
    Quote: rayruav
    the Chinese came up with everything and gunpowder and rockets (this is according to Chinese sources that are doubtful) that they did not scatter the wild tribes

    There is a book on the Web Shkolyar S.A. Chinese pre-artillery artillery. M. 1980. Everything is well stated there. If very briefly - the Chinese came up with gunpowder, but not guns. They equipped with gunpowder rockets and bombs thrown by catapults. It happens. For example, the ancient Greeks made a working model of a steam turbine, but did not begin to develop and apply it.
    Gunpowder by the Chinese was used in the defense and storming of fortresses, and was not used in field battles. In addition, even in Europe, the first firearms (before the invention of the wheeled castle) were often inferior in combat qualities and rate of bows and crossbows.
    The main problem for China in the fight against nomads is the Huns, Mongols, etc. consisted in lower mobility of their armies (the steppe cavalry was superior in quality and maneuverability) and the hardest logistics on a very difficult theater of operations. Repeatedly huge Chinese armies advanced deep into the Gobi desert, but were cut off by nomads from communications, surrounded, exhausted by constant raids from all sides and suffered a crushing defeat.
  24. 0
    6 June 2019 06: 23
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    ...
    The Mongols certainly included a huge number of different tribes, the Turkic element increased constantly, in the steppes of Eastern Europe, the Turks who were not destroyed or went to Russia and Hungary became the main participants of the Golden Horde, and took the name of the new conquerors.

    Since we were talking about the Tatars, the Turkic element could not be related to them. They lived on the easternmost border of Mongolia in the neighborhood with the Jurjens. For the same reason, they were easily exterminated. At the first defeat of the Tatars, they were able to escape from the Jurjeni. All the Mongols were then afraid of the Jurjen and did not dare to invade the territory controlled by them. Then the Tatars attacked Jin, taking advantage of the turmoil in the empire and the Djurgeni demanded that the Mongols punish the Tatars. Now the Tatars had nowhere to hide and they were destroyed. At the time of Genghis Khan, the last Turks of the Great Steppe were the Kirghiz, but they lived northwest. There is an interesting map of the tribes of Mongolia at the end of the 12th century.
  25. 0
    6 June 2019 06: 32
    Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
    ...
    The main problem for China in the fight against nomads is the Huns, Mongols, etc. consisted in lower mobility of their armies (the steppe cavalry was superior in quality and maneuverability) and the hardest logistics on a very difficult theater of operations. Repeatedly huge Chinese armies advanced deep into the Gobi desert, but were cut off by nomads from communications, surrounded, exhausted by constant raids from all sides and suffered a crushing defeat.

    As for the frequent lesions from nomads, this is a strong exaggeration. The nomads feared the Jin army. True, they really didn’t have enough cavalry, and Jin always used the cavalry of the vassals when hiking. So the Turks were used in the war against the state of Korea (Korea) and the Mongols, and the Mongols against the Turks. Divide and rule. The Jin Empire was defeated by the Mongols (and even then not immediately) as a result of a failure of coincidence of factors for the Chinese. Several years of crop failures, riots within the empire, war with the southern Sun empire and its Western ally ally. And it seemed that the empire resisted then, but the Mongols came, who concluded an alliance with the enemies of Jin. And in the Jin empire itself, the ruling djurgenis were perceived by the enemies and the Chinese did not stand together to defend the country. At about the same set of circumstances, the Jurjeni conquered the Jin at one time.
  26. -1
    6 June 2019 06: 56
    Well, it all started .. We have that, the year of Mongolia is passing ... About the "greatness" of the Mongols, who just did not speak .. Maybe the gypsies have some kind of chronicles ... By the way, I have a portrait of Genghis Khan in some book. Strikingly similar to Kublai ... even in the same clothes ...