Byzantine and papal sources about the Mongols

“I think you just will not find. They simply do not.
All references to the Mongols from Arab sources.

Vitali (lucul)


Contemporaries of the Mongols. Publishing material "Persian sources about the Mongol-Tatars" caused a “heated discussion” on “VO”, so we will have to start with some “preamble” to the main text.

Byzantine and papal sources about the Mongols

Siege of the city. Thumbnail of the manuscript of "Roman about Alexander". XIV century. (Archive of the Hellenistic Institute of Venice)


First of all the sentences: I am not against “alternative” points of view on the course storiesBut let us discuss in the materials about the Mongols precisely them, and not the class affiliation of the author of commentators, as well as their nationality and prospects for the world revolution. There will be an article stating that "Stalin and Hitler differ in the length of a mustache" - that’s there, please. Second, already specifically to “alternatives”: please do not a priori consider exactly your point of view to be the only correct one, but if you still think that this is the case, but you are not academicians of the Russian Academy of Sciences, then cite references to the sources of your deep awareness. Also note that the articles are not candidates and doctors of science published on popular sites, including “VO”, but without reference to the literature used in them, DO NOT CONSIDER. Any person can write any fabrications today, he has every right to do this, until he is locked in a place where doctors should decide. But let him show where his ideas came from, because unfounded statements do not prove anything to anyone, especially to me, and, moreover, are not needed by anyone. Do not take time from yourself or from others. Next, before you write something, look first at the Internet. After all, in him, darling, today there is almost everything that is needed, even in Russian, not to mention English. Remember that one fool (meaning the ignorant, of course!) Can ask so many questions that even a hundred wise men will not answer them. Don't be like this ... Why, for example, is the epigraph placed here? Yes, simply because its author was convinced that there are no Byzantine sources about the Mongols and that they cannot be found. However, they are, and they are many. If he wanted, he could check it out very easily. But he did not want to. And that is why this material is dedicated to the subject of Byzantium’s connection with the Mongols.

Everyone has their own world!


Let's start with the fact that we will remember, think or find out (who did not know before) that all civilizations of the planet Earth, starting from the Stone Age, and even from the Bronze Age and even more so, had the character of global communication. People exchanged goods produced thousands of kilometers from the place where archaeologists found them. And in the same way they exchanged ideas. Not without reason, researchers of national epics and legends constantly pay attention to the similarity of their subjects and characteristic images. Here, for example, that the Persian Pahlevan Rustam in Shahnameh says about his significance: “My throne is a saddle, my crown is a helmet, my glory on the field. What is Shah Cavus? The whole world is my power. ” But the words of the bogatyr Ilya Muromets: "Drink you, goals, do not fail, / I will serve as prince in Kiev, / And with me you will be the leaders." Appeared writing facilitated this process. The information process materialized. There were records of trade deals, travel stories, reports, spy reports ...

At the same time, the question of faith was very acute at all times. People tend to strive for like-mindedness, and even more so they strove for it at a time when it could be mined with a sword blow. But ... the death of people was already perceived (albeit for different reasons) as a tragedy that could have been avoided if they had the same “correct faith”. In the Middle Ages, everyone aspired to this, and above all, Christians and Muslims. Moreover, it was “the choice of faiths” by Prince Vladimir that became the very point of bifurcation that could change the whole course of world history in the last thousand years. It could, but ... did not change. Nevertheless, everyone tried to spread his faith then and later. And in particular - the papal throne, which, naturally, was aware of the fact that the newcomers from Asia, who destroyed the Christian troops at Legnitz, and on the river Shayo - are pagan polytheists! Well, since they are pagans, then the holy duty of Christians is to direct them to the true path and curb them! Correspondence between Pope Gregory IX and the Georgian Queen Rusudan has been preserved, from which one can clearly see his concern with Mongolian expansion as harming primarily the political interests of the popes in the Caucasus. The pope did not like the claims of Khan Ogedey to world domination, since the Holy See himself sought to do the same! The relations of the Mongolian nomadic empire with the popes after the invasion of Hungary deteriorated even more, followed by messages sent to Western rulers from Khan Guyuk (1246) and Khan Munke (1251) with the requirements of absolute subordination.


Mongol Empire during its maximum expansion in 1279


Why dads did not like the Mongols?


And how could it be otherwise, when Khan Mongke openly declared the need to continue the Mongolian expansion and expansion of the empire to the West to the “last sea”. In the Middle East, this led to the campaign of Khan Hulagu and the destruction of Baghdad, Aleppo and Damascus. The kingdom of Jerusalem, he also presented an ultimatum demanding to obey. Then the Mongols took and destroyed the city of Sidon (February 1260 of the year), which clearly showed the strength of the Outremer crusaders. In Rome, all of this was immediately reported in a series of letters, among which the message of the Bishop of Bethlehem, Thomas of Anya, is very interesting. Most of all, he was outraged by the statements of the Khan not so much by the demand for submission as by the words about the divine origin of the power of the Mongolian kagan.

Did Hulagu want to be a Christian?


However, the papacy would not be what it was, if it did not possess the vast experience of managing the rulers of other countries with the help of various methods. When Hulagu in 1260 decided to found a new ulus, it became an innovation, which was not provided for by the traditional Mongolian ruling elite division of the empire between the sons of Genghis Khan, and therefore was not recognized by the khan of the Golden Horde Berke. Hulagu’s relationship with the Golden Horde immediately deteriorated due to Hulagu’s refusal to give Berke a certain share of taxes from Transcaucasia and Khorasan, and so much so that they led to war between them in 1262. The clash between Ilkhanat and Horde repeated in 1279 year. And this “stab in the back” for the Khulaguid state was all the more dangerous since at the same time it was conducting active military actions against the sultanate of the Mamelukes of Egypt (1281 and 1299-1303). It is clear that it took allies, which here in the East for Hulagu could become only ... Western Europeans! In 1260 -1274 In the camp of Ilkhan there was a bishop from Bethlehem, a certain David from Ashby, and it was he who became the mediator in the Franco-Mongol negotiations. A letter from Hulagu, dated 1262 year, was transmitted to the King of France and the Roman Curia. In it, the khan openly declared ... his sympathies for Christianity (even as it happens!) And suggested coordinating the actions of the Mongolian troops against Egypt with the naval expedition of the Western crusaders. Dominican John of Hungary confirmed that Hulagu was baptized, but Pope Urban IV did not really believe it and invited the Jerusalem Patriarch to check this information and, if possible, find out how missionary activity among the Mongols is possible.

Restoration of the "second Rome"


As for the Byzantine-Mongolian relations known to us, they began to develop gradually from the middle of the 13th century, when the Byzantine Empire, yes, we can say that it no longer existed. But ... there was the Trebizond Empire, which was trying to establish friendly relations with the Golden Horde and the State of Hulaguids. In addition, just in 1261, the Byzantine Empire was able to re-establish itself, after which it entered into active relations with the Mongols, trying to push Hulaguids dangerous for it with the Golden Horde and thereby weaken both those and others. The implementation of the eternal principle of “divide and rule” included in practice not only the exchange of embassies and gifts, but also military cooperation, not to mention the dynastic marriages popular at that time and ... active correspondence. All this was and is reflected in the documents of both parties, and many of them have survived to our time.

As for the Trebizond Empire, after the defeat of the Seljuk sultan Giyas al-Din Key-Khosrov II in the battle with Baiju-noyon at Kose-dag in 1243 (near the city of Sivas in modern Turkey) during the Mongol invasion of Anatolia, she hurried to recognize a vassal of the Hulaguid state, which immediately opened up the Mongols to the land of Asia Minor.

Frightened by a possible attack from the Mongols, the emperor of the Latin Empire Balduin II de Courtenay, at the beginning of the 1250s, sent his knight Baudouin de Hainault to the great Khan Munch with an embassy mission. At the same time, the embassy from the emperor of the Nicene empire John Vatac also went there, which marked the beginning of diplomatic relations between these two states of the West and the East under the rule of the Mongol khans.


Byzantine warriors of the XII - XIII centuries. Fig. Angus McBride


Byzantium and the Mongols


As for Byzantium, Emperor Michael VIII there immediately after the restoration of the empire in 1263, concluded a peace treaty with the Golden Horde, and two years later went to give out his illegitimate daughter (Christian!) Maria Paleolog for Ilkhan Abaka, the ruler Hulaguidic power, and concluded an agreement with the alliance. But, nevertheless, he still couldn’t avoid invading the nomads. Khan of the Golden Horde Berke did not like the alliance between Byzantium and the state of the Hulaguids, and in response to him in the same 1265, he undertook a joint Mongolian-Bulgarian campaign against Byzantium. This attack led to the plundering of Thrace, after which the Mongols invaded the lands of Byzantium several times. In the 1273 year, after another attack, Mikhail VIII decided to marry the Golden Horde beklyarbek Nogai his daughter Euphrosinia Paleologue and ... in this way, through a marriage bed, he achieved an alliance from him. And not only the union, but also real military assistance! When in the 1273 and 1279 years, the Bulgarians undertook campaigns against Byzantium, Noghai turned his warriors against their yesterday's allies. A Mongol detachment of 4000 warriors was sent to Constantinople in the 1282 year, when the emperor needed military force to fight the rebellious despot of Thessaly.

The basis of diplomacy - dynastic marriage!


Emperor Andronicus II, who assumed the throne in 1282, continued the policy of his father and tried his best to maintain peaceful relations with the Mongolian states. Around 1295 of the year, they were offered Gazan-khan, the ruler of the state of Hulaguids, a dynastic marriage in exchange for rendering him in the fight against the Seljuk Turks, who plagued the Byzantines on the eastern border of the empire. Ghazan Khan accepted this offer, and promised military aid. And although he died in 1304, his successor, Olgeitu Khan, continued the negotiations, and in 1305, concluded a treaty of alliance with Byzantium. Then in the 1308 year, Olzheit sent the Mongol army to 30 000 warriors in Asia Minor and returned Byzantium Bithynia captured by the Turks. Andronik II also managed to maintain peace with the Golden Horde, for which he gave his two daughters as Khans Tokhta and Uzbek, under which, by the way, the Golden Horde converted to Islam.


Byzantine warriors of the 14th century Fig. Angus McBride


But at the end of the reign of Andronicus II, relations with the Golden Horde had deteriorated sharply. In the 1320 — 1324, the Mongols again invaded Thrace, once again plundering it. And after the death of Ilkhan Abu Said in 1335, Byzantium lost its main eastern ally in Asia. It got to the point that already in 1341, the Mongols planned to seize Constantinople, and Emperor Andronicus III had to send an embassy to them with rich gifts, just to prevent their invasion.


Byzantine armor Clivanium, X — XII centuries. Reconstruction of Dimitris, Greece


Papacy reaction


And how did the Roman papacy respond to all these events? His reaction can be seen from the mention of possible Mongolian aggression, which in the messages of Pope Urban IV are becoming less frequent with each year, the last remark relates to 25 in May 1263 of the year. At the same time, relations with Eastern Christians, for example, with the Armenian Church, have improved. There has been a resumption of negotiations on the possible conclusion of a union. An important role in the promotion of Catholic missionaries to the East was also played by the trade colonies created by the Genoese in the Crimea. The Mongol khans did not hinder them, allowed them to trade, but together with the merchants monks, the eyes and ears of the papal throne, penetrated there.


Michael VIII Palaeologus is kneeling before Christ. The image on the coin, issued on the occasion of the celebration of the liberation of the capital of the empire from the Crusaders


Western merchants actively penetrated the Trapezund Empire, which was subject to the Persian khans, where their activity has been observed since 1280. Reaching the capital of the Ilkhanat Tabriz, which became the center of Asian trade after the fall of Baghdad in 1258, they established their trading posts there and established close sea connections with Europe. But they needed to pray somewhere, so they asked for permission to build Catholic churches in the lands subordinate to Mongol rule. That is, papal power began to be present even where the general population professed Islam or Buddhism. For example, Giovanni from Montecorvino managed to build a Catholic church in Beijing next to ... the palace of the Great Khan himself. Funds for the construction were used very different, including they were taken from people of a different faith. Thus, the Catholic archbishop of Fujian, an extremely important center of commerce in southern China, built a church in 1313 there with funds received from a widow of a certain ... Orthodox Armenian merchant.


Fortress walls of Constantinople


To strengthen ties with the Mongolian empire, the activity of the Franciscan monks, who founded their monasteries in the Crimea, in Trebizond, and in Armenia, as well as in the capital of Ilkhanat, was of great importance. They were directly subordinate to the Roman Curia, which, although it experienced considerable difficulties in relations “with its people” in the territory so remote from Rome, but nevertheless considered their work very important. With increased missionary work in Asia, Pope Boniface VIII decided to give it a more independent character and in 1300, he established the Franciscan Diocese in Cuffe, and three years later in Sarai himself. The Diocese of Saray in 1307 was subordinated to the Vicar of China, created by the works of the same Franciscan monk Giovanni from Montecorvino. The Dominican diocese in the new capital of Ilkhanat, Sultania, appeared by the decision of Pope Giovanni XXII, who more favored Dominicans than Franciscans. And again, many of the Catholic missionaries arrived in Asia through Byzantium, and in the East they performed the tasks not only of the popes, but also ... of the Byzantine emperors.

At Vienne Cathedral (1311 - 1312), the issue of teaching missionaries to local languages ​​in special schools in the territory of the Mongolian empire was specifically discussed. Another serious problem was the actual nomadic way of life of the Mongols, their traditional activities and life, greatly complicating the execution of Catholic rites, as well as their polygamy, which could not be eradicated. That is why the preaching of Islam found a greater response in their hearts and contributed to their progressive Islamization. By the way, what the missionaries reported to Rome in their secret reports. At the same time, the popes' reaction to the strengthening of Byzantium’s contacts with the Mongols, and with it the Eastern Church, was sharply negative. Before them was a vivid example of the baptism of Russia according to the Greek rite, and the popes did not want a repetition of such a scenario.


Michael VIII Paleolog. A miniature from the manuscript of the history of Pachimer, XIV century. (State Library of Bavaria, Munich)


In general, the activities of Western missionaries, although they did not produce any special effect, nevertheless contributed to the growth of the authority of the papacy within the European continent. But the Greek Church clearly lost this round of opposition to the papacy. Although the papal envoys had only to testify as a result of the triumph of Islam among the Asian nomads. The negative consequence of the Franco-Mongolian military alliance and the spread of Catholicism in the East was ... and the destruction of the kingdom of Jerusalem in 1291. But if the Persian khans had adopted Christianity, then the states of the Crusaders would exist in Palestine and beyond, and Byzantium would have every chance for further existence. Whatever it was, but all this activity was already useful because it literally left us mountains of documents stored in libraries and archives in many countries, but mainly in the Vatican Apostolic Library in Rome, where there is a whole department for such documents.


Scroll of Joshua, a Greek manuscript of the 10th century, probably made in Constantinople (Vatican Apostolic Library, Rome)


Использованная литература:
1. Karpov S., History of the Trapezund Empire, St. Petersburg: Aletheia, 2007.
2. Malyshev A. B. Report by an anonymous Minorite about Franciscan missionary posts in the Golden Horde in the 14th century. // Archeology of the Eastern European steppe. Interuniversity collection of scientific papers, Vol. 4. Saratov, 2006. C. 183-189.
3. Shishka E.A. Byzantine-Mongolian relations in the context of political and military conflicts in the Mongolian empire in the 60-s. XIII in // Classical and Byzantine tradition. 2018: collection of materials of the XII scientific conference / resp. ed. N.N. Bolgov. Belgorod, 2018. C.301-305.
4. Letter from brother Julian about the Mongol war // Historical archive. 1940. T. 3. C. 83 — 90.
5. Plano Carpini J. Del. The history of Mongalov // J. Del Plano Karpini. The history of Mongal / G. de Rubruk. Journey to Eastern countries / Book of Marco Polo. M .: Thought, 1997.
6. Ata-Melik Juvayni. Genghis Khan. History of the Conqueror of the World = Genghis Khan: The history of the world conqueror / by J. E. Boyle, from the text of Mirza Mohammed Qazvini to English, with a preface and bibliography of D. O. Morgan. Text translation from English to Russian by EE Kharitonova. M .: MAGISTR PRESS Publishing House, 2004.
7. Stephen Turnbull. Genghis Khan & the Mongol Conquests 1190 – 1400 (Essential histories №57), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. Mongol Warrior 1200 – 1350 (Warrior # 84), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. The Mongol Invasions of Japan 1274 and 1281 (Campaign No. 217), Osprey, 2010; Stephen Turnbull. The Great Wall of China 221 BC – AD 1644 (Fortress # 57), Osprey, 2007.
8. Heath, Ian. Byzantine Army 1118 - 1461AD. L .: Osprey (Men-at-Arms # 287), 1995. RR. 25-35.


To be continued ...
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  1. Pessimist22 1 June 2019 05: 53 New
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    The Mongols were noisy at one time, now they are under protection in UNESCO.
    1. Nicholas C. 1 June 2019 06: 10 New
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      Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
      provide links to sources of your deep knowledge. Also note that the articles are not candidates and doctors of sciences published on popular sites, including “VO”, but without reference to the literature used in them, DO NOT BE CONSIDERED. Any person can write any fabrications with us today, he has every right to do so, until he is locked up where he should be by decision of the doctors.
      Shpakovsky, articles and references to the literature used in them are NOT ACCOUNTED. It’s even strange that you don’t know and don’t even understand. Perhaps because you are not a scientist, but a PR man. From the point of view of PR, IMHO, any means of giving credibility to any indecency is good. What you are proposing is a pseudoscientific deception and demagogy, which is used, for example, by your local Ukrainian brothers, not in search of truth, but in order to color lies and propaganda in a beautiful Jesuit color. They even measure whose list is longer so that it seems that they only yesterday learned the names of these works. Because often in the materials on the list there isn’t close to what such "authors" write about, and even if it does, it doesn’t have the same meaning that the "author" gives him in order to promote propaganda beneficial to him.

      How to provide links is set out in GOST R 7.0.5-2008 "Bibliographic link. General requirements and rules for compilation." The link can only be specific, as written in the GOST, so that a statement backed by a link can be checked immediately. Otherwise, an article with a list of "used" "literature" is an unproven, at best, graphomania.
      1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 12: 29 New
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        Quote: Nikolay S.
        How to give references set out in GOST

        You already seem to have been explained the difference between a scientific journal and this site. If it is not clear, I can repeat.
        9 February 2019 15: 21
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Regarding the literature used - it would be nice if you read at least part of what is given at the end of the article, then you would not have written nonsense. Regarding the lack of references, I am not writing to the journal Ancient Russia. Questions of medieval studies. With all due respect to this resource, its format is not very suitable for articles with academic links. There are publications of the relevant subject and level - with similar reproaches, please go there.

        As for this material, it was prepared qualitatively, set out clearly and intelligibly, and who doubts that the author did not distort the information obtained from the listed literature, he can check that the list is attached.
        Check out, read, find where the author has lied and put the disclosure here. I think if this happens, Vyacheslav Olegovich will bring his apologies. In the meantime, an apology on your part will look more appropriate.
        1. Boris55 1 June 2019 13: 18 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          who doubts that the author has not distorted the information obtained by him from the listed literature, he can check - the list is attached.

          I have no doubt that the author, when preparing the material, used the listed literature, but where is the guarantee that the truth is written there? laughing

          The confrontation between the old faith and the newcomer is unfinished to this day. The active phase just came to the so-called "Mongol-Tatar yoke." In the end, the aliens won and wrote their story. It is this interpretation of history that is used by the majority, including the author. hi
          1. Nicholas C. 1 June 2019 14: 36 New
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            A message on the topic of the preamble in the "article" under discussion.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Regarding the literature used, it would be nice if you read at least part of what is provided at the end of the article, then you would not write nonsense ... With all due respect to this resource, its format is not very suitable for articles with academic links .. .
            Check out, read, find where the author lied and post the revelation here.
            I reviewed your "works" in https://topwar.ru/153570-knjaz-jaroslav-vsevolodovich-chast-4-pohod-na-em-i-kreschenie-korel.html#comment-id-9071302 He cited academic references and quotes to show that you are wrong. It turned out, according to your answers, that you are not mistaken, namely, you are lying. And then, as now, you should be rude not only to me, but also to the readers of VO and VO itself, because this, they say, is not a resource where you need to provide confirmation of your words with correct links even in case of a question. And whoever doesn’t believe you can go ... read literature from the "used" list. Very Svidomo.
            Characteristically, Shpakovsky (Shevchenko) supported you in your next serial “article”:
            Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
            Yes, the article is great! Would honor other kin ...
            For a compliment with the. Need links to primary sources, and he only secondary!
            It turns out that Shpakovsky himself has no idea how the link should look. It's funny Shpakovsky is not a dyn, to claim something like a ding, but the degree of kin is more than doubtful. I have already cited the topic of his dissertation and a list of similar dissertations defended a year or two before three, only in his region and only slightly differing from his topic. Moreover, the topic of his dissertation concerns simply statistics on their region in the previous small period (this is the work of simple statistics) and the wise leadership of the CPSU. No scientific novelty or benefit. However, he betrayed the CPSU. In theory, an honest person in this case would have to give up the degree. I also provided a link to the Penza forum, where people familiar with him criticize his human and professional qualities. I will not deal with charges of plagiarism, theft, etc. Shpakovsky is even proud that the Rodina magazine, which accused him of plagiarism, did not file a lawsuit against him - he did not find the time for such a significant figure. I was most struck by the story about how Shpakovsky held pickets in the center of Penza in one person in support of Yeltsin ... during the reign of Yeltsin.
            1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 18: 49 New
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              Quote: Nikolay S.
              Cited academic references and citations to show that you are wrong.

              Go back and read what you got there.
              Just tried to triple the next srach about Ukraine, nothing more. You did not like that Kiev, it turns out, that surprise was the largest city of Russia right up to the Mongol invasion. PP Tolochko was already brought in by 1982 (some of the girls born that year become grandmothers), they say, the population in Kiev was less than what I wrote. And a lengthy quote from the chronicle about the capture of Kiev by Mstislav Andreevich in 1169. Everything.
              But I could not even understand my objections to this, not so clearly to answer.
              Apparently, the words "Ukraine", "Kiev" acts on you as a kind of naked woman on a pimply teenager - eyes in a heap, drooling from the mouth and violent masturbation until exhaustion. And the one who is not with you-a hundred percent Svidomo. wassat
              Ask VO users - they need articles with extensive scientific quotes like
              the situation of civilization transition is accompanied by a corresponding change in the type of memory from the historical one, which serves to collectively identify society in the historical space, to a different type of memory, which serves to identify the individual in the whole cultural space
              and academic references in the style of "NPL 88, 156" or "CH. XV, 6; Muratov, Feldman, 2002. C. 138 — 142". or they prefer a coherent text, written in simple and accessible language, not burdened with links, but with lots of illustrations.
              1. Nicholas C. 1 June 2019 21: 28 New
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                Quote: Trilobite Master
                view of a naked woman on a pimple teenager - eyes in a pile, drooling from the mouth and furious masturbation to the point of exhaustion.
                A great characteristic of your intelligence. In my opinion, the rest of the circle of “historians” Shpakovsky not far from you have left. Vyacheslav Olegovich himself is much smarter and more educated than you. He, along with the girls, finished something teacher, emnip, Penza ped. And in the fourth dozen, "made it" "into the people" with the help of the CPSU - "defended" something according to the "history" of the CPSU.
                The link according to GOST does not burden the text. Not at all. There is a footnote, and at the bottom of the page is the correct link. The reader has the opportunity to verify what your controversial statements are based on. But you do not set such a goal. Do not bet, therefore, want to cheat and cheat.
                It is a pity that there are no scientists in your circle, otherwise we would have known how scientific articles differ from pseudo-scientific ones. And then you take one for the exact opposite. Throughout my life, I had the opportunity to be with scientists of various sizes, up to the maximum size, so I know that the more a scientist, the easier he can pose the most difficult problem. What is far from my education, even verbally, is explained on the fingers so that you remember it for life.

                About your lying "cycle" can not justify. Kiev was not the largest Russian center before the Mongol invasion. No 100 thousand lived in it. The largest Kiev archaeologist assessed that in Kiev could to live a maximum of 47-50 thousand people. But whether so many lived even at the time of the highest prosperity of Kiev - when it was the Russian capital - is not a fact. Already in the year of the capture of Kiev by all-Russian troops under the command of the son of Andrei Bogolyubsky, he was defended only non-Russian (Torquay and Berendey) and the squad of the usurper prince himself (but she just dissuaded the prince from the confrontation). In support of this, a chronicle text was given. In response, you are only capable of low abominable abuse, because you were caught in a lie.
                1. Catfish 1 June 2019 22: 50 New
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                  In my opinion, the rest of the circle of “historians” Shpakovsky not far from you have left.

                  Well, thank you, lubesny soul! This is about the intelligence of the "circle of historians." This is not my topic, the one on which spears are now breaking, and I will not interfere here. But I know Vyacheslav’s articles on firearms and I consider them to be of high enough quality in order to respect their author. I don’t know you at all, did you publish anything on the site? If so, reset the link.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2019 05: 53 New
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    Many thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    “And again the battle, for your opinion about the truth” !!!
    Sincerely, Vlad!
    1. Catfish 1 June 2019 23: 05 New
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      Hello, hello! hi “And who is this victim, I don’t know him” (S. Mimino), is he like a great expert?
      So also, Bender said what to do with such "experts".
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 June 2019 06: 52 New
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        Good morning Konstantin!
        In our case, the “History” is recognized as the victim .... although denying the obvious and inventing the incredible about our Fatherland's past, we will destroy it ourselves !!!
        An example, as a game of the mind ....
        Suppose, hypothetically, we will convince ourselves that we are descendants of the super-duper-Slavic-Rus nation of 30 years, take pride in drawing sleep in textbooks, filming films and cartoons, rejecting the legacy of the Vikings, Kobyaks, Rusov and the yoke ..... And then a bald professor of history, any bald professor introducing into the scientific circulation of one or two artifacts all this “bubble” will blow away? Moreover, the loss of the foundations of truth will be similar to disappointment in "communism in the 000th !!! Tear in minds and souls, gives the opportunity to the "neighbor" to take away everything that is bad!
        I’ll say more with the same “technological” mines stuffed all the post-Soviet countries! Some Black Sea dug, others ......
        So, in our past, it is necessary not to look for a blunder, but a truth!
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. Trilobite Master 2 June 2019 11: 34 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          So, in our past, it is necessary not to look for a blunder, but a truth!

          Truly, Vladislav! hi
          Moreover, in our history, not the shortest, I must say, there is something to be proud of and without any fantasy.
          1. Semurg 2 June 2019 15: 40 New
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            On the Internet, I read that the baptist of Russia ordered that Christian history be destroyed and rewritten, then, like Ivan the Terrible, he did this and brought all the scrolls to his library, which disappeared. Then Peter 1 and Catherine the Great rewrote history to fit their needs. This is not counting the scribes of the monks who made edits according to the current moment. Do you think how much “truth” is there in ancient history, because even in assessing modern history, for example, the collapse of the USSR or World War II, there is no final point over and.
        2. Catfish 2 June 2019 21: 14 New
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          Hello Vladislav!
          Over my long life, history has been rewritten, corrected, and supplemented so many times that I already regard it (history) as a kind of virtual discipline that lives on its own, professing the well-known formula of historians about the past and the future.
          But in essence, I agree with you one hundred percent. hi
  3. Lannan Shi 1 June 2019 06: 48 New
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    A little about how "real" historians pull an owl on a globe.
    "And what are the Tatars and what kind of faith they are, as far as we can, we will tell about this in this letter.
    It was reported to me by some that the Tatars formerly inhabited the country now inhabited by the Cumans and, in truth, are called the sons of Ishmael (hence the Ishmaelites), and now they wish to be called Tatars.
    The country where they originally came from is called Gotta, and Ruben called her Gotta (In other manuscripts of Gothia (B) and Gotha (F). L. Bendefy explains Gothia: scilicet Kathai.).
    The first Tatar war began like that. There was a sovereign (BF leader (prince).) In the country of Gott, named Gurgut (So ​​BF, in Du Gurgatam. This is obviously Genghis, but the name itself is probably the spoiled Ogedey, Occodai.)"
    From - A letter from Brother Julian about the Mongol war, (number 4 in references) with comments (bold) of "real" historians. For which Gothia = Kathai, and Gurgut no one else, but "obviously, Genghis."
    In fact, after reading such revelations, mathematicians and other physicists, simply by virtue of the profession accustomed to logic, simply cannot have a different attitude to “real” historians, except for slightly sick people. And to their work, as to frank delirium.
    Author ... Here, build a chain like Genghis or Ogedey. Occodai can be "spoiled" to Gurgut. Linguistics damn it. But when did this interfere with "real" historians? There is an owl, there is a globe, which means you have to pull it.
    1. Shturmer 1 June 2019 10: 46 New
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      I agree. Logic there and does not smell. I was thinking about the actions of Dmitry Donskoy in the Battle of Kulikovo and when Tokhtamysh attacked Moscow, set out by official historians, and some kind of not quite adequate commander loomed. The story of changing clothes, during a battle, in a simple fighter, is something !! And how did he lead the battle there, then? Then he threw the carts to eat Jagiello. And during the approach of Tokhtamysh’s troops to Moscow, he screwed it to Kostroma for help) And the Lithuanian prince arrived in Moscow to lead the defense, that is, Dmitry Donskoy did not leave anyone in his place ?! Or Dmitry Donskoy was, I’m sorry, a fool, or historians are pulling something.
      1. nafanal 1 June 2019 11: 04 New
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        Dmitry Donskoy was not a fool .. Historians made him that way ..
  4. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2019 07: 17 New
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    Interesting article,
    and the preamble!
    Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  5. nafanal 1 June 2019 07: 52 New
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    Lord ... When this nonsense about the greatness of the Mongols ends .. I looked at hundreds of miniatures in ancient manuscripts, but everywhere the so-called Mongols have thick beards European appearance and dressed like Europeans .. In any case, their clothes resemble the clothes of Russian men .. yes and the armor is clearly not Mongolian ... The whole truth about the so-called Mongols is stored in the libraries of the Vatican. But who will allow us to go there ... So everyone sculpts what much because of their education Author .. turn on the brains Well, how can one be alive commander, albeit three times brilliant to ward off such an empire .. while not giving a damn about all the laws of economics. Yes, for them, the Nobel’s shining just for one act .. For the whole of Mongolia it wouldn’t be enough to subordinate such territory .. The Russians have almost 300 empires years of creation. And probably it's time to finish this canoe about the nomadic empire ... Uzbekis !!!!
    1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2019 09: 24 New
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      You do not read and write carefully, sorry, but nonsense. The author does not approve anything at all. Re-read.
      1. nafanal 1 June 2019 11: 20 New
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        Yes, I read it more than once ... And the epigraph is a classic of the genre ...
    2. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 13: 01 New
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      Quote: Nathanael
      I looked through hundreds of miniatures in ancient manuscripts.

      Oh, damn, you are an expert simply. Miniatures, I suppose they were written in Europe? Ages that way in the XV-XVII? Check out the same miniatures in Chinese manuscripts, there are hundreds of them too - you will be surprised.
      Quote: Nathanael
      The whole truth about the so-called Mongols is stored in the Vatican libraries.

      I was there. Truth not found. Where did you see her there?
      Quote: Nathanael
      Author ..include brains

      Commentator, turn on your own. What you wrote below is some kind of painful nonsense, probably provoked by the inordinate absorption of some Fomenko or other freak's discharge. Before writing any nonsense, criticizing "historians", it would be nice, at least in part, to get acquainted with their works, not limited to history textbooks for pre-puberty children and the metabolic products of those who, in your ignorance, earn their bread and butter.
      1. nafanal 1 June 2019 15: 29 New
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        Well yes .. of course .. Miniature miniature discord .. Compare portraits of at least the same Timur. The Chinese have a typical Mongol with a thin beard, narrow-eyed, the Arabs have a handsome man in a turban, with wide eyes with a strong beard. Timur did not find European images, but I will give a recent example. I. Lenin. Look at his images of artists of different peoples. Each gave him features inherent only to these peoples .. I liked the portraits of Lenin made by Kyrgyz artists of the 30s. Lenin there is incomparable .. By the way, Gerasimov himself later admitted that he thrashed a little Timur ... I did not find the truth anywhere, although not in the Vatican was ... Even so with your unloved A.T. Fomenko..Only one of the options of our history. At one time I re-read Gumilyov. Likhacheva Nechvolodova .. It’s not that ... about 10 years ago I printed the book Mavro Orbini-Slavic Kingdom on my order. Everything else ... You probably still believe that the Roman Empire existed. The Iron Legions .. Thousands of triremes plowed the sea ...
        1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 16: 14 New
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          Quote: Nathanael
          Each gave it the features inherent only to these peoples.

          This is not a boy's speech, but a husband. And not only the features of his face, but also clothes that he wore in his time in his region. So what are your arguments regarding the hundreds of thumbnails and "thick beards" that you viewed?
          Regarding the Vatican, the “truth” might as well be hidden in the library of the US Congress, for example, or in secret dungeons near Jerusalem, where the fanatics with sad Semitic eyes make inhuman experiments on abducted Slavic children, mumbling cabalistic mantras. Come on, what is there ...
          Quote: Nathanael
          Gerasimov himself later admitted

          No words. To whom he confessed? He confessed to my grandmother that Timur was a typical Semite in general, and he had a face - exactly the same as Hitler's face, but Stalin issued a personal order on a parchment of seventy-year-old virgin's skin, sealed it with the Holy Grail, and in the eyes of an amazed anthropologist began Hollywood films acquire Mongoloid features.
          As far as my faith in the Roman Empire is concerned, it is not faith. This knowledge is confirmed by numerous data. If you had a hunt, you could have read them yourself.
          1. nafanal 1 June 2019 17: 53 New
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            Yes, I tried to get acquainted .. But all this somehow did not fit either with the laws of physics or with the tactics of military art. The laws of physics and shipbuilding were different at that time? And you probably know how to build a trireme. And the iron Roman legion was in complete disarray if at least a dozen opponents burst into its location. Take an interest in any battle of the Romans at sea. The degree of organization and command is a couple of goals higher than two thousand years later ..... In the complete absence of communication facilities .. The Mongols have the same parsley. .When trying to conquer Japan, the most powerful fleet was wounded off. If you believe the Chinese. Where did they get the infrastructure from? Well, yes, the paper will endure .... hundreds of years later ...
            1. Lord_Raven 3 June 2019 10: 14 New
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              Quote: Nathanael
              And the iron Roman legion was in complete disarray if at least a dozen opponents burst into its location.

              And can a source, in what battles did this happen? At Ausculum? Aqua Sexties? Cannes?
              Quote: Nathanael
              When trying to conquer Japan, a powerful fleet was wound off. If you believe the Chinese. Where did they get the infrastructure from?

              But nothing that shipbuilding was fully developed in China even before the Mongol invasion. However, it was focused on river and coastal waters, which affected the results of the invasion of Japan, since the flat-bottomed ships built by the Chinese were simply not able to survive a serious storm. There is a good documentary on the National Geographic television channel on this subject, which tells about the results of many years of work by underwater archaeologists in the area of ​​the Mongol landing.
              PS And, in the end, the possibility of Chinese shipbuilding of that time is perfectly illustrated by the expeditions of Zheng He, who sailed to Africa.
              1. nafanal 3 June 2019 11: 26 New
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                Do you take the Chinese word for it? If you believe them, the description of these voyages appeared almost 250 years later, then their ships were more than one hundred meters in length and almost fifty in width .. Yes, even with modern technologies it is unrealistic to build such a vessel. You can build it more faithfully but you can’t walk on it. Even with a small wave it just breaks in half. Therefore, modern sailboats are built no more than 20 meters wide .. Someone tried to build a Chinese ship. Or at least his remark When we see a giant ship in Chinese films, don’t believe it. All this is nonsense .. Historians gleaned all the information about Chinese shipbuilding by studying the images of these scandals on dishes or according to the descriptions of Chinese historians .. Some people, like all historians, have little faith ... Although blessed is anyone who believes .. But before that, try at least noodles shake off ears. And about the Roman legions, read Plutarch’s description of the uprising of Spartacus. The leader of the slaves often planned so. After one of the battles of Crassus and spent his famous decimation ..
                1. Lord_Raven 3 June 2019 15: 47 New
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                  Well, as soon as it comes to the specifics, verbal balancing act begins.
                  Quote: Nathanael
                  Do you take the Chinese word for it? If you believe them, the description of these voyages appeared almost 250 years later, then their ships were more than a hundred meters long and almost fifty wide ..

                  Why believe if there are results of the work of underwater archaeologists off the coast of Kyushu and the remains of several ships have been found. Or did their "evil official historians" plant it?
                  Quote: Nathanael
                  And about the Roman legions, read the description by Plutarch of the uprising of Spartacus. The leader of the slaves often planned so. After one of the battles of Crassus and spent his famous decimation ..

                  Why read, if, in your words, "historians have little faith"?)) You really either remove the cross or put on your underpants. And name the specific battles where the "dozen opponents" brought frustration to the Roman legion. It seems to me that even in the example of the uprising of Spartak that you cited, the number of attackers was significantly larger. If, according to the estimates of Appian and Libya, in the battle near Mount Gargan, the Crixus detachment was from 20 to 30 thousand, then the army of Spartak was clearly larger.
                  1. nafanal 4 June 2019 08: 53 New
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                    Something the results of the work of your underwater archaeologists are very modest. If not to say more, zero .. The bottom of the sea of ​​the Salamin Strait should be strewn with fragments of Greek triremes. They don’t find anything ... Jonka is the summit of Chinese shipbuilding ... And about the evil historians- any historian should be trusted with a fair amount of skepticism. And turning on brains to separate fiction from the truth. Here is an example of the "evil" historian Herodotus .. I sat this uncle somewhere in the port town and listened to the stories of drunken sailors. Then I literally processed .. and now the opus is ready ..Talantically, the scoundrel portrayed and therefore earned the title -father of history .. Although it would be better if such a story remained an orphan
                    1. Lord_Raven 4 June 2019 10: 16 New
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                      Quote: Nathanael
                      Something the results of the work of your underwater archaeologists are very modest. If not to say more, zero

                      "Congratulations to you, dear citizen!" There are the results of many years of work of the Japanese archaeological expedition led by Torao Mozai, the results of which are regularly published, including in Russian in journalism. See for example http://www.vokrugsveta.ru/vs/article/1485/
                      Quote: Nathanael
                      The bottom of the sea of ​​the Strait of Salamis should be strewn with fragments of Greek triremes. They find nothing

                      What is the habit of jumping off the topic of discussion and spreading thought over all periods of history. We began to discuss the death of the Khubilai fleet, where are the Greeks? Or are you involved in this too? And if you want to use the historical-comparative method, then first you need to justify it somehow.
                      Quote: Nathanael
                      As for the evil historians, any historian must be trusted with a fair amount of skepticism. And turning on the brains to separate fiction from the truth.

                      What are you? !!!! This thought draws on a great scientific discovery !!! But nothing that methods of working with the source, "internal and external criticism of the source." Designed and used for a very long time. And most scientific publications are applied a priori.
                      PS In summary, you can answer one simple circumstance, "Where are the proofs, Billy?" As soon as it comes to specific facts, such as finding the remains of ships, you begin to carry a "blizzard" about the "lied" historians.
                      1. nafanal 4 June 2019 11: 55 New
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                        Well tse later ... la vaascha !!! So says my neighbor-crest ... To refer to the popular half-time scientific journal .. Not comme il faut ... But to believe the national geografik - do not respect yourself .. Finding the remains of ships, I believe only one Swedish "Vase" And even then it is different in descriptions from what they raised. And you do not need to ascribe scientific discoveries to me .. I am not a historian by training but a techie. And I used to believe everything with algebra ...
                      2. Lord_Raven 4 June 2019 15: 50 New
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                        Quote: Nathanael
                        I’m not a historian by education, but a techie. And I’m used to checking everything with algebra

                        Well, if you are a techie, then for you the absolute criterion of truth should be the presence of an established fact. With regard to our topic of discussion, this is 1) the discovery of the remains of ships (the fact is documented and verified more than once)
                        2) objects, weapons, ceramics (more than 4 objects) belonging to the Mongolian and Chinese culture of the second half of the 000th century AD
                        3) the seal of the Mongol commander, where the date is indicated - 1277
                        4) Research by geologists who, having examined Kyushu, came to the conclusion that in the second half of the XNUMXth century AD several abnormally strong hurricanes hit the island.
                        5) data of radiocarbon analysis, which indicates the time of construction of ships - XIII century.
                        6) Analysis of granite, which served as the basis for anchors and wood, which showed that they come from the Chinese province of Fujian. It was from there in 1281 that the second Mongolian fleet came to the Japanese coast.
                        7) And, finally, written sources - Chinese and Japanese annals, the information in which describes these events.
                        As you can see, Mr. Technician, you can either touch your 6 of 7 actual data with your hands, or they are based on data obtained by natural science methods. Or are geologists and physicists also "in collusion with historians who have sold themselves"?
                      3. nafanal 5 June 2019 19: 32 New
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                        Well, I didn’t write about historians who have sold, although the same geologists have often caught historians on mukhlezhe. Radiocarbon analysis sins with such assumptions that it should not be taken seriously and taken into account. Written sources of the Chinese and Japanese are so synchronized up to days that it involuntarily suggests an idea of ​​fake ... There are plenty of ships left at the bottom. Why did the Japanese decide that they were the same ones ... Printing the military commander was probably the same anecdote as Mamaia’s pistol on the Kulikovo field .. And then the first expedition failed miserably and seven years later the second left with such an inconceivable fleet that inadvertently takes a goiter .. Approximately the same fleet was set up after 700 years .. Guess where .. That's right: the operation is overlord. Amazing labor productivity. By the way about the same Chinese .. Why are they after the voyages of this admiral poheril this case .. They surely would have met with the Portuguese. Although in India .. And then shish the Portuguese and not Macau
                      4. Lord_Raven 6 June 2019 10: 32 New
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                        Well here again. Some allegations. No facts, no data, nothing.
                        Quote: Nathanael
                        Radiocarbon analysis sins with such tolerances that it is serious and should not be taken into account

                        Evidence in the studio! Is this the result of your research? If yes, then a reference to the publication, please. If this is someone’s opinion, then what is it based on? And, it is desirable that the qualification level of this specialist be comparable with the status of an academician, both in Russia and abroad and for which the objectivity of radiocarbon analysis is beyond doubt.
                        Quote: Nathanael
                        The seal of the commander is probably the same joke as the Mamaia pistol on the Kulikovo field

                        Once again, what is this point of view based on? Surely this is not an argument.
                        Quote: Nathanael
                        Why did they, after the voyages of this admiral, steal this business .. After all, they would surely meet with the Portuguese. Although in India

                        If you had even spent a little time studying this issue, you would have known that the expeditions of the Chinese and Portuguese have diverged in time by 70 years, but the Portuguese have learned about the “unknown sailors in India” and conducted a whole investigation, the results of which are documented.
                        PS You want to argue, use the facts and documents. So far, your style of argumentation of your point of view is not something that does not stand up to criticism; in principle, it casts doubt on your statement that you are a “techie”, since the method you use is unfounded statements and the absolutization of your own opinion. Or is it a new trend in science and now all "gentlemen believe the word"?
                      5. nafanal 6 June 2019 11: 44 New
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                        We’ll start from common sense. Why the hell did the Chinese go so far .. To satisfy their curiosity .. Expensive ... I understand that the voyage didn’t justify itself financially. There was no continuation. Trade ... India was a rich country time Yes, and those Chinese were no more stupid than the present .. Although the east is a delicate matter. Evon Europeans were not in vain looking for India, although they discovered America .. But they used it to the maximum. And why did the Chinese crash ... The question is however ... The radiocarbon method is good only for long periods of time Historians speak about this at almost every congress. That's for sure .. you can take my word for it. About Mamai’s pistol .. Why did you decide that it belonged to Mamai .. There was a gold plate with some inscription. like: for military merit is awarded ... namerek .... And what words did you find absolutism unfounded that you and I attribute a cult of personality. At the last historical congress in my opinion in 2015, a proposal was made to create a commission to combat unconventional rii.Pod some who are already harvesting firewood .. Know historians lied ... If such values ​​as Newton began to doubt
  • victor50 5 June 2019 08: 56 New
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    Quote: Nathanael
    Well, how is it possible during the lifetime of one commander, albeit three times brilliant, to ward off such an empire ... while he does not give a damn about all the laws of the economy

    Napoleon does not refute you? What about Hitler? Imagine only that they defeated Russia and the USSR ?! And one more thing: if I don’t know or understand something, this does not mean that this is unknown to anyone!
    1. nafanal 5 June 2019 19: 39 New
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      You confuse a Chinese aircraft carrier with a finger ... How did Napoleon start? That's right, with the reform of industry .. with the establishment of the blockade of England. Hitler began with the nationalization of industry. Something about the reforms of Genghis Khan no one defended his dissertation. I do not argue for the patronage of trade. But again he considered it as intelligence activity .. So Ian and Gumilyov wrote ..
      1. victor50 6 June 2019 07: 18 New
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        As I understand it, according to the same authors, Genghis Khan carried out no less reforms that organized the life of the Mongols in a completely different way. It seems to me that his role for the Mongols is comparable to that of Mohammed for the Arabs.
        Quote: Nathanael
        You confuse a Chinese aircraft carrier with a finger ...

        Do you think this "argument" is much more convincing than any argument? Or...?
        1. nafanal 6 June 2019 08: 42 New
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          I don’t know how much Genghis changed the life of the Mongols, but he didn’t wait for the “gratitude” of the descendants .. They forgot it .. Imagine a couple of generations and it was erased from memory ... Neither legends nor legends .. I personally don’t believe in it ... Great-grandfathers reached from the Pacific Ocean to the Adriatic. and spit out for the great-grandchildren ... As for the aircraft carrier ... if I insulted, I'm sorry .... I served in the army - I still can’t break the habit ...
          1. victor50 6 June 2019 08: 51 New
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            Quote: Nathanael
            I don’t know how much Genghis changed the life of the Mongols, but he did not wait for the “gratitude” of his descendants ..

            Is that so? We remember that they are still looking for his grave, in Mongolia, it seems, a monument has been erected. And if the next generations coming after him (children, grandchildren), then it is not surprising: wars, divisions of the empire, the struggle for power, the desire to become famous as an ancestor - everything is as usual. And even more distant descendants decide who is truly great. Is not it so?
            Quote: Nathanael
            As for the aircraft carrier ... if offended, I'm sorry .... He served in the army, I still can’t break the habit ... Barracks

            Do not offend. We all went through the barracks. I just caught myself thinking that I’m not looking for an argument, but with what else to compare a finger! laughing Barely restrained! laughing But do we need it ... such ... instead of arguments that make you think, do you learn something? I objected to you because your argument "hooked." In a good way. hi
            1. nafanal 6 June 2019 11: 01 New
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              Well, take an interest when they installed this monster .... After all, before the Christian missionaries arrived, the Mongols did not know that they were great. They will look for the grave for another thousand years. They will not find it.
  • Luc Mokart 1 June 2019 08: 00 New
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    "But ... the death of people at that time was perceived (albeit for various reasons) as a tragedy that could have been avoided if they had one" correct faith ".
    Moreover, it was precisely the “choice of faiths” by Prince Vladimir that became the very point of bifurcation that could change the whole course of world history over the past thousand years. Could, but ... did not change. "

    The author, you, by chance, are not a Catholic missionary?)
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        1. just exp 1 June 2019 13: 04 New
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          much better .
          look for info about Tarim mummies and mummies in South America.
          a lot of questions will arise, the answers to which traditional history refuses to give.
          and this is just the beginning. in history there are so many things that do not fit with the official version.
          and the same genetics asks good questions.
          and among alternativeists, the Germans have this version - they are an artificial people, the western part of the Celts, the Eastern Slavs, they were gathered into one state after baptism, and they gave a common language, and for several centuries they created a common culture.
          the tractionals had only German barbarian tribes that destroyed Rome and so on. and Slavs like they survived centuries before.
          and geneticists have shown east is r1a, west is r1b.
          1. Kronos 1 June 2019 13: 29 New
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            When I was 16 years old, I was also like that, like they cheated on us and when I grew up I realized that these were ordinary manipulations and making money on the credulity of people who want sensations
            1. just exp 1 June 2019 15: 29 New
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              and there is such a thing. but there are facts, mummies are still a fact. and how to explain them and where to put genetics?
              1. victor50 5 June 2019 09: 00 New
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                Quote: just EXPL
                and there is such a thing. but there are facts, mummies are still a fact. and how to explain them and where to put genetics?

                It has long been concluded (by many laughing ): historians are pathological liars, from birth, and genetics are exclusively disinterested holy truth lovers, moreover, they are never mistaken! laughing Sarcasm - if that! hi
      3. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 13: 10 New
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        Quote: just EXPL
        By the way, they did not notice that a few months ago, IN completely changed and became from a pro-Russian resource to a pro-Western one?

        Go to other sections - everything is in order. However, here, too, you can always read Samsonov's articles and comments to them, there, (I do not read them) probably everything is correct and patriotic.
        There are articles, after reading which you can learn something new. There are articles, after reading which you are once again convinced that you already know everything and you know only correctly. The second option is definitely yours. Just find your author.
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          1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 14: 28 New
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            Quote: just EXPL
            I see the same script here

            I, as a representative of the opposite camp, on the contrary, see the last few months activating my ideological opponents - pseudo-patriots, who, as a rule, are also champions of all sorts of new chronologies, DNA genealogies and the great Scythians.
            So don't be discouraged, there are still a lot of yours left and they will not get anywhere from this resource, in any case, while the backbone of the "patriotic" -minded authors remains. Well, then, a herd of screamers from the street to recruit as commentators is much easier than to form a community of thinking people, of whom there will always be a minority and they will always be divided, since they are always independent in their assessments and judgments.
            Dont be upset. If the mood deteriorated - correct it in other sections.
            1. just exp 1 June 2019 15: 33 New
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              Yes it was. and then everything changed dramatically.
              what is it for ?
              1. voyaka uh 1 June 2019 21: 03 New
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                Sociology ... The last three years have changed the general mood
                in Russia. Accordingly, the mood on the forum has changed.
                Comments have changed. Here is a social sample
                all classes and regions.
                In Israel, the last three years, nothing has changed.
                Comments are about the same as before.
            2. vladcub 1 June 2019 21: 47 New
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              Michael, oh, and you lectured "Fomenkovtsev"
  • igordok 1 June 2019 08: 41 New
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    The map "The Mongol Empire during its maximum expansion in the 1279 year" is incorrect. After all, many believe that Belarus is called Belarus because there were no Mongols. smile
    1. just exp 1 June 2019 09: 25 New
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      By the way, only after your post I understood why during the revolution the Finns were called white-Finns.
      the Mongols didn’t reach them either.
    2. Aviator_ 1 June 2019 09: 25 New
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      The card is far-fetched. On it, both Pskov and Novgorod are on the “Mongolian” territory
      1. igordok 1 June 2019 10: 20 New
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        Pskov on the map, just did not get into the "Mongolia", but Novgorod on the border. Which basically corresponds to historical sources. The Mongols did not reach Novgorod a few miles and turned. Pskov and Novgorod were not captured, although both cities paid tribute.
        1. Aviator_ 1 June 2019 14: 06 New
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          On the map given by Shpakovsky, the northwestern border of the Mongol empire runs along the southern shores of Onega and Ladoga lakes, which is by no means correct.
        2. vladcub 1 June 2019 15: 30 New
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          It was easier to pay off what Pskov and Novgorod the Great did.
          I had to meet in the media the opinion that the Mongols could not advance further: the horse is not convenient, but in my opinion it is precarious. The khan probably preferred a ransom than an extra loss. Then, too, losses in manpower were taken into account, and nobody needs extra losses
          1. vladcub 1 June 2019 17: 20 New
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            Someone doubt that these cities have decided to pay off?
            What was the number of Tatars who came with Batu? I think no more than 10-15 000, but in modern terms, what is the size of the garrison of the same Ryazan? Probably about 200-250 people. What will comrades say about this?
  • just exp 1 June 2019 08: 56 New
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    by the way. and where can I look at the mass graves of the Mongols in Russia?
    or were they innumerable? or did the Mongols send thousands of corpses on horses back to Mongolia?
    1. Lannan Shi 1 June 2019 09: 42 New
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      Quote: just EXPL
      or did the Mongols send thousands of corpses on horses back to Mongolia?

      They ate them. Karpini, the most "reliable" eyewitness, says bluntly, the Mongols are cannibals. yes Well, the fact that the Arctic Ocean washes off this “eyewitness” of the coast of Mongolia, the Volga flows into the Black Sea, there is plenty of snow (if you can, 10 megasug is already XNUMX cm for a real Mongolia), nomads brew beer, apparently, and thump it out of manure sitting on benches, this is garbage. It is obvious to mathematicians that if Karpini was east of Kiev, it was exclusively in a dream. But “real” historians do not want to think. yes
      1. nafanal 1 June 2019 11: 26 New
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        Fat like you for the "real" historians
      2. Sunstorm 9 June 2019 16: 07 New
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        Quote: Lannan Shi
        Quote: just EXPL
        or did the Mongols send thousands of corpses on horses back to Mongolia?

        They ate them. Karpini, the most "reliable" eyewitness, says bluntly, the Mongols are cannibals. yes Well, the fact that the Arctic Ocean washes off this “eyewitness” of the coast of Mongolia, the Volga flows into the Black Sea, there is plenty of snow (if you can, 10 megasug is already XNUMX cm for a real Mongolia), nomads brew beer, apparently, and thump it out of manure sitting on benches, this is garbage. It is obvious to mathematicians that if Karpini was east of Kiev, it was exclusively in a dream. But “real” historians do not want to think. yes

        How has the climate changed in the last 20 years? According to rumors, secretly transmitted between those who are not mathematicians ... but for example, the geologist has changed for himself ... based on this, you can make a terrible in its simplicity guess ... the current climate is not at all what it was then ... Moreover, there is some a sect ... insolently asserting that in the 13th century in Eurasia there was still a place for Glacier to be .. but I would definitely not trust this sect as a mathematician.
    2. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 13: 19 New
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      Quote: just EXPL
      and where can I look at the mass graves of Mongols in Russia

      Do you know anything about their funeral rites?
      But if they knew something, they would not have asked such nonsense.
      Understanding that you yourself are not able to learn anything except from the books of Fomenko, I will explain. The funeral rite of the Moguls consisted of digging up a deep hole in a secret and remote from the beaten path, folding corpses there, then digging in and destroying all traces of burial, so that the enemies would not defile the dust of the dead. It is unlikely that, being in a foreign land, they abandoned their ancient customs. Later mausoleums - a consequence of the influence of the culture of the conquered peoples.
      1. just exp 1 June 2019 13: 36 New
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        darkness, actually I won the history olympiads. moreover, on a regional scale, though this is not a professor of course, but I am more than familiar with the official history.
        I didn’t read Fomenko at all, I have more confidence in Sidorov, because I know mythology very well (I have been interested in it since 11 years old and read more books on it than most people have seen) and I have never managed to catch it in mythology. this is mythology, not science, I will not argue here.
        but there is one BUT, mythology has a plot type, that is, a different version of history, the one with the gods and ancient civilizations, and here oops, there are things that are in mythology, but not in official history. how to be to score because it cannot be simple because it cannot be?
        or is the whole science that if any new data has been received, then it is necessary to take them into account and investigate them and reconsider the official position or how are they doing now, remove what does not fit into the official version and pretend that it does not exist?
        Are you definitely for science?
        look for info about the mummies of South America, and let me remind you that Indians have ONLY black hair, not at all different shades, but ONLY completely black.
        if after that you have no questions, then nothing will help you.
        Threat at the expense of the Mongols, you are probably one of those who thinks that the Mongols should be 10 people?
        I’ll give a hint, after battles where thousands of soldiers died, burials should be very large and such burials are found. by the way, thousands of bodies still need to be taken to the burial place. and the transportation of thousands of bodies leaves big traces, and for some reason they find the burial grounds of Russian soldiers, including those armed with Tatar arrows, but the Mongols don’t.
        fuck what they masters hide mass cemeteries
        1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2019 14: 45 New
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          Quote: just EXPL
          after the battles where thousands of fighters died, the graves should be very large and such graves will find

          It is extremely rare, in any case in comparison with the number of known battles - regrettably small. As for the Mongols, there is an opinion that they “buried” their own people in the swamps — dumped their bodies in order not to bathe in digging frozen ground. The main purpose of their ceremonies was to hide the body, to protect it from the access of enemies and (or) the minorites. Marshes are suitable for this as best as possible, especially in winter.
          As for mythology, a thing, of course, is useful, interesting, fascinating, but painfully unreliable.
          The trouble of some people, and yours, apparently, including that they want to get answers to their questions immediately, as they arise, wait for them, you see, there is no time, but they themselves do not allow them to do research.
          For some questions, science, normal science, has been looking for answers for decades, and for centuries, and having found it, it immediately begins to refute and start everything from the beginning. You are all simple: there is a riddle, so there must be an answer. Figures that in order to build at least a hypothesis on the issue of interest, you need to collect and collect material for research and generalization, we come up with one (not five, not ten, one!) Hypothesis and forward - it is the truth, and the evidence under it we will pick up, not shy away from, including mythology, why not? And considering how many people have been thinking about over the millennia of their existence, you can always choose a fairy tale.
          1. just exp 1 June 2019 15: 28 New
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            but what if mythology is right?
            Have you thought about an alternative?
            why should she be killed without considering her position?
            I thought that science is when all the data is taken, analyzed, and then a conclusion is drawn.
            and when they take one version and make it official, and other data is discarded, then in my opinion this is NOT a science.
            Threat Darwin's theory is still just a theory, but do you know how the theory differs from fact and axiom?
        2. vladcub 1 June 2019 17: 05 New
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          In fact, to learn history from fairy tales and myths is the same as to learn the war of 1812 on Lermontov's insurance "Borodino" It is fascinating, but not reliable.
          1. just exp 1 June 2019 20: 31 New
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            tales and myths are sometimes the only source of information.
            1. vladcub 1 June 2019 21: 42 New
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              Oh the creation of the world?
              You may be right, but I studied in a Soviet school, and there, if you didn’t forget, I brought up materialists and atheists. How it turned out, good or bad - the question is already different
          2. Undecim 1 June 2019 21: 24 New
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            In fact, to learn history from fairy tales and myths is the same as to learn the war of 1812 on Lermontov's insurance "Borodino" It is fascinating, but not reliable.
            From your comment I understood that Lermontov is the owner of the Borodino insurance company, in which the war of 1812 was insured.
            Who writes comments to you?
            1. vladcub 1 June 2019 21: 34 New
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              And you do not know that the auto editor corrects as it wants. If you gape or rush so that you don’t lose your thought. Zhelezyaka fix as he wants
    3. nafanal 1 June 2019 14: 22 New
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      Actually, according to Mongolian concepts, corpses are not buried but taken to the steppe and the animals are pulled out there. The faster they tear to pieces, the more respected the person was, so the absence of burials indicates a degree of respect for the Mongols in Russia
  • Undecim 1 June 2019 14: 35 New
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    Mongol Empire during its maximum expansion in 1279
    The map is not very informative. This, in my opinion, is better.
    1. Operator 1 June 2019 21: 48 New
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      Both maps of the Mongol Empire at the end of the 13 century have only a partial relation to reality, since they are deliberately mixed into one heap of territory. controlled by the Mongols, but with a fundamentally different status:
      - Central Asia, the Volga region and the Black Sea steppes, which had the status of the Mongolian metropolis (the Turkic-speaking population headed by the Mongol khans and the Mongolian administration);
      - China and Iran, which had the status of the Mongolian colonies (non-Turkic-speaking population led by the Mongol khans and the Mongolian administration);
      - Russian principalities that had the status of vassal states (non-Türkic-speaking population headed by local princes and local administration).

      Explicitly, the difference in the status of the territories of the "Mongolian Empire at the end of the 13 century" should be reflected on the map, which claims to historical accuracy.
      1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 07: 53 New
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        Russian lands were no vassals of the Mongols. These were the immediate territories of the Mongol Empire and Ulus Jochi. And the Russians were the direct subjects of the Mongol khans, called them their kings, were counted by censuses and paid the imperial tax-output. The presence of a local administration over the local non-Mongolian population was not only in Russia, but also in China, Iran, the Volga region, and the Caucasus. This can not serve as evidence of the special status of Russia as part of the empire. It’s just that domestic historians in a fit of patriotism thus like to mitigate the humiliating yoke. It is difficult to call these relations a vassality, given that the Horde tsars appointed Russian princes as officials or governors.
        1. Operator 2 June 2019 08: 57 New
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          Damn, another Tatar historian: you can tell the Russian prince from the Chinese khan or the Persian Khan?

          PS Tatar historians - exactly the same Arab doctors laughing
          1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 09: 49 New
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            Of course, the Russian prince is a petty feudal lord, not a couple of the Yuan Kagan and the Ilkhan Great Khan. Both have similar positions of heads of small counties and regions held by the Chinese, Persians and Turks. The level of the Persian (Ilkhan) Khan of the Chinese (Yuan) Kagan is the Khan of the Golden Horde.
            By the way, did Judea of ​​King Herod belong to the Roman Empire or not? )))
            PS Russian folk historians exactly like sofa specialists all over xD
            1. Operator 2 June 2019 13: 05 New
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              The Khan of the Golden Horde did not label the county Russian princes, but limited itself to the label of the great Russian prince - in strict accordance with the feudal principle: my vassal is not my vassal. Therefore, all the Russian princes were not government officials (as in the Mongolian colonies of China and Persia), but remained the hereditary owners of their feuds.

              Absolutely the same system of feudal dependence of states at the same time existed in Western Europe: the French kings had vassals in the person of the dukes of Normandy, Burgundy and the king of Basque, the German emperors - dukes of Lorraine, Bavaria, Swabia, Franconia, Saxony and Lombardy, the British kings the kings of Scotland, Wales and Ireland, one of the Scandinavian kings - two other Scandinavian kings.

              PS As a Tatar historian, it is useful for you to study a more topical question - why the "Mongolian Empire" merged into the toilet just 250 years after its formation laughing
              1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 13: 39 New
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                Are you a historian yourself? No? So another couch amateur))) Do you know the name of the amateur who argues with the specialist? . No matter how much the Horde stayed there, it makes no difference to me, I am not a Tatar and I do not shed tears on it.
                In fact, the specific princes were obliged to receive the Horde labels. And you did not know, dear amateur? )))
                Shield shield? Did the French king give labels to the rule of the Norman and Burgundian dukes? Or maybe he was deciding who would be the Norman and Burgundian duke? Or maybe the Norman duke needed to go to Paris and kiss the seat of the king of France in order to obtain the right to the duchy? ))))
                You do not seem to understand what feudalism is.
                And I'm still waiting for your answer about the Roman Empire.
                1. Sertorius 3 June 2019 08: 36 New
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                  it was necessary to go to Paris and kiss the seat of the king of France in order to obtain the right to the duchy

                  Alas, yes. It was necessary to go to Paris and kiss (in the mouth, and not in the seat, as you deigned ...) your overlord to confirm the rights to his fief.
                  Homage from receiving the label differs only in the ritual side. The legal basis is almost the same.
                  1. Pancher88 3 June 2019 11: 33 New
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                    Those. Could the French king, in his own understanding, deprive the Duke of the Norman Duchy?
                    1. Sertorius 3 June 2019 23: 44 New
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                      This happened at the beginning of the 12th century. Only not the French king, the English. Normandy then entered the kingdom of England. Guillaume Red took the duchy of his brother Robert. But in order to keep up appearances he proposed a compensation, which did not suit his brother. The result is the death of Robert in prison. But the famous and respected crusader was.
                      1. Pancher88 4 June 2019 01: 45 New
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                        There the situation was a little different. The fact is that the Norman Duke Robert was not a vassal of his brother, the English king William Rufus. Moreover, he himself claimed the English throne as the eldest after the death of their father. Conversely, Wilhelm Rufus could claim the Norman Duchy as the son of the same father. After the death of their famous pope, Rufus became by his will the king in England, and in Normandy Robert became the duke. But he was not a vassal of the English king (rather French). The Kingdom of England and the Duchy of Normandy were separate possessions of their father, Giom the Conqueror. And of course, every brother wanted to take another's share. Rufus did not take away the duchy of Robert. The latter just in the midst of a showdown screwed into a crusade. He was put in prison, another brother Henry, who also became king of England. But Henry (like Rufus, if he had managed to defeat Robert in due time) did not take the Duchy of Normandy from Robert as overlord from the vassal, but as one brother from the other, because he, too, being the son of William the Conqueror, had inheritance rights to her.
                      2. Sertorius 4 June 2019 03: 29 New
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                        he himself claimed the English throne as the eldest after the death of their father. Conversely, Wilhelm Rufus could claim the Norman Duchy as the son of the same father

                        The possessions of William the Conqueror were divided in accordance with the norms of that era. The eldest son - patrimonial possessions acquired - at the discretion of the father. Therefore, the elder Robert and received Normandy. (F.Gis Marriage and family in the Middle Ages. 2002).
                        The latter just in the midst of a showdown screwed into a crusade.
                        Robert received 10000 marks from his brother and gave Normandy as collateral, paid the debt upon return and returned the duchy.

                        But he was not a vassal of the English king (rather French).

                        Louis Tolstoy unsuccessfully tried to achieve vassality from the sons of the Conqueror. It is important that they did not recognize themselves as vassals of the French crown. The Norman nobility almost without exception had lands in both Normandy and England (for participating in the conquest), for which they brought the oath of allegiance to the king of England. Thus, despite the efforts of Suger, who emphasized that Normandy was part of Gaul, the very fact of constant military harassment from Louis to Normandy testifies that she did not obey him as overlord. Therefore, on the part of Heinrich (yes, I was mistaken, Guillaume the Red died to the return of Robert from the Holy Land), the usurpation of the fief of the vassal is evident. Although Henry most likely found arguments to legally cover up his actions. Maybe due to the fact that Robert did not bring him homage? I do not remember. Digging - no time.
      2. Trilobite Master 2 June 2019 13: 05 New
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        Quote: Pancher88
        The Russian lands were not any vassals of the Mongols.

        What a news. Let's see what will happen next. laughing
        Quote: Pancher88
        These were the immediate territories of the Mongol Empire and Ulus Juchi. And the Russians were directly subjects of the Mongol khans, called them their kings, were counted by censuses and paid imperial tax-out.

        As long as everything is true and this is precisely the signs of vassalage.
        Quote: Pancher88
        The presence of a local administration over the local non-Mongolian population was not only in Russia, but also in China, Iran, the Volga region, and the Caucasus.

        That is, the Russian princes led the population of Russia subservient to them, without coordinating their actions with the overlord. Normal vassalitet. But China - how was the dynasty called before the Mongols? Jin? And became Yuan? Got it.
        How are things going with Khorezm? Oh, the last Khorezmshah - Jelal-ad-Din died in 1231, and who ruled after him on his lands? Chagatay, Hulagu?
        And how are things in Bulgaria? Who was sitting in cities and villages? Again the Mongols? Yes, how much can you!
        Well, look at Russia. Rurikovich were before the conquest, Rurik remained. What about the Mongol vicar? Yes, there were Baskaks from Karakorum, which were collecting output. 15 years, until they were killed. And then everything - the Mongols (later the Horde) did not have any administrative functions in Russia. Something doesn't fit, right?
        Quote: Pancher88
        This cannot serve as evidence of the special status of Russia within the empire.

        So, we recall that the Mongolian dynasty directly rules in China. In Khorezm, too, in Bulgaria there are Mughal governors with all the functions of management, and who in Russia? Rurikovich ... Nothing special, of course, no special status.
        Quote: Pancher88
        Simply, domestic historians in a fit of patriotism like to soften the humiliating question of the yoke. Vassalitet these relations difficult to call, given that the Horde kings appointed Russian princes as officials or governors.

        This is how it was directly assigned. They did not claim, in accordance with the Russian clan inheritance law, but appointed someone where they wanted. Well, then yes, then of course. Ryazan princes were appointed, for example, in Tver, Rostov - in Pereyaslavl, of course, this is known to all. wassat
        In short, do not write nonsense.
        It was really a vassal of dependence, with a much wider autonomy than in the rest of the lands under the control of the empire, later the Horde. The Khans received a way out - a tax from the subordinate provinces, represented the highest judicial body in the resolution of conflicts between Rurik dwellers and provided power to resolve controversial issues. Everything. The rest was entirely under the jurisdiction of the Russian nobility and the Khans were not interested. The most that neither is an exceptional position within the empire.
        1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 14: 00 New
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          The Ryazan princes were appointed, for example, in Tver, the Rostov princes - in Pereyaslavl, of course, everyone knows this. [Quote] [/ quote]
          In fact, the khans appointed princes wherever they wanted. For example, Nevsky was appointed to reign in Kiev. The Mongols did not experience any reverence for Russian inheritance law. Whoever better licks will be appointed.
          By the way, unlike China and Khorezm, the Russian lands were primitive small formations without a single absolute ruler. Therefore, they were part of a larger entity, the Golden Horde. The Mongolian khan, the king of ulus Juchi, could not appoint himself the specific prince of each small principality))) Until the 16th century, even the Tsar was not. For the king was in the horde. The level of Russian principalities is the level of European counties and baronies. And the king ali, the emperor in Europe could not appoint whoever he wanted to possess one or another barony. And he could not decide who would be the duke or the marquis. And the king of the Horde could. He gave it a label, this is not, then he took it from the first, passed it to the third. And he ordered the first to be broken by horses. From the bulldozer. In short, he owned the Russian principalities as his thing. This is not feudal vassalage. Vassalism implies a certain independence and even the right to war with the overlord. This is already absolutism, as in France of the 18th century, when the king could, at the request of his heel, take away any county and transfer it to another. Or the duchy.
          1. Trilobite Master 2 June 2019 16: 11 New
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            Quote: Pancher88
            The Mongols did not feel any piety for the Russian hereditary law.

            However, he was strictly considered. laughing
            Alexander Nevsky to Kiev - in strict accordance with the right of success - at the time of the invasion His father was sitting in Kiev, and then from the hands of Batu received the "Russian land", which Kiev was considered to be the oldest city. Alexander in Kiev - "in the father's place" in its purest form.
            The only case when the Horde had neglected the Russian law was the fact of the transfer of the great table to Yury of Moscow from under Mikhail Tversky. But Yuri shortly before this, he became the son-in-law of the great Khan, which put him in the eyes of the Horde to an unattainable height relative to the Russian princes, an exceptional case. After the murder of Yuri, his murderer Dmitry Mikhailovich was punished, and the great reign was transferred to his brother Alexander Mikhailovich, and not his brother Ivan, since Ivan was not the son-in-law of Uzbek, in full accordance with the clan law of Russia.
            Quote: Pancher88
            Russian lands were primitive small formations without a single absolute ruler

            This is either just trolling or outright, fierce illiteracy. I think it will not be too much for you to learn a materiel before starting discussions on such topics. Only your "king of the ulus" speaks of that in the subject you do not understand at all - neither in the titles, nor in the political structure of the Mongolian empire, you do not even understand the basics of the feudal system.
            There are not many Russian Nazis here, and now even ... what kind of blood are you there - Tatar, Kazakh? - brought. wassat
            Quote: Pancher88
            And the king of the Horde could. This gave a label, this is not, then took the first, gave the third.

            Where did you get this nonsense? wassat Some kind of darkness ... I do not even ask for examples, I wonder, among what kind of nonsense do you derive these demonic nonsenses? Who is the author of this enchanting stuff? I want to know his surname ... With the same success, it can be argued that Genghis Khan served as a groom at Vsevolod the Big Nest, and the stepmen came to Russia because everyone was passively homosexuals and tearfully asked the Russian men to satisfy them. laughing I have exactly as many grounds for such statements as you have for yours.
            Of course, if this nonsense is sitting firmly in your head, it is clear where such conclusions come from ...
            But I am terribly interested where it appeared in your head. The name of the author and the name of the work, or references to the work, will suffice for me. I really want to laugh ... laughing
            1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 16: 22 New
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              No, not Tatar and not Kazakh, and generally nothing nomadic.
              This is not trolling. It is a fact. Just a lot of unpleasant. It is customary for us to exaggerate the weight of the ancient Russian principalities, putting them on a level not only with the European kingdoms, but as we see, already with Khorezm, Iran and China. But in fact, the Russian principalities were a group of small feudal formations. In China, Khorezm and Iran there was a powerful statehood, which was led by Genghiside. In Russia, no. Where could Batu sit in Russia? )))
              Khan Vlus Juchi Russians called the king. Hence this combination.
        2. Pancher88 2 June 2019 14: 08 New
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          And yes, it is not necessary to lie.
          In Russia, Basquality was formed in the 1250-1260s. Each principality was assigned a special Baskak. The Great Baskak had a residence in Vladimir. The Baskaki controlled the local authorities, in the XIII-XIV centuries collected from the Russian lands a tribute to the Golden Horde. Also, the Basques kept a record of the population in the conquered lands. At the disposal of the Baskaks could be large armed groups to ensure the timely collection of tribute.
          And where is only 15 years old? For most of the yoke, the Baskaks represented the Mongol administration in Russian lands.
          1. Trilobite Master 2 June 2019 16: 24 New
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            Quote: Pancher88
            And yes, it is not necessary to lie.
            In Russia, basquality was formed in 1250 — 1260's.

            After the imperial baskaks were slaughtered, the functions of these same baskaks began to include exclusively control over the taxable base and transfer of the exit to the Horde. They had no control functions or the right to make political decisions from the word “absolutely”. Count the exit and send the khan, and so on trivialities, to see that the exit size is not underestimated - nothing more. The princes themselves collected the tribute; the Mongols' attempt to do it on their own ended sadly for them - they just killed the Baskaks.
            Quote: Pancher88
            For the most part of the yoke, the Baskaks represented the Mongol administration in the Russian lands.

            Administration? wassat I already asked, where did you get this nonsense? Asked?
            Once again I explain: the Institute of Basquacity after the uprising during which the imperial Baskaks were killed was an exclusively fiscal body that supervised the timeliness and completeness of the output volume. Well, representative functions.
  • vladcub 1 June 2019 14: 41 New
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    Quote: Shturmer
    I agree. Logic there and does not smell. I was thinking about the actions of Dmitry Donskoy in the Battle of Kulikovo and when Tokhtamysh attacked Moscow, set out by official historians, and some kind of not quite adequate commander loomed. The story of changing clothes, during a battle, in a simple fighter, is something !! And how did he lead the battle there, then? Then he threw the carts to eat Jagiello. And during the approach of Tokhtamysh’s troops to Moscow, he screwed it to Kostroma for help) And the Lithuanian prince arrived in Moscow to lead the defense, that is, Dmitry Donskoy did not leave anyone in his place ?! Or Dmitry Donskoy was, I’m sorry, a fool, or historians are pulling something.

    In the first case, the actions of the prince can be interpreted as a kind of populism: "I am fighting for everything." What then management was: they began to wave and who whom. The decisive word was for cheerfulness, when he chose the moment to attack. And “pulling up the rear” with Kostroma, he had already matured and lost his youthful courage. As a rule, a person becomes more cautious with age, less reckless courage
  • vladcub 1 June 2019 16: 58 New
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    “If Tail wanted to become a Christian,” I think everything is just like 2 + 2 = 4: Hulagu hoped that the pope would send knights, they would help Hulag, and then “soup with a cat.” He would say, “I thought it over.” By the way, V.O. did not say that the patriarch of Jerusalem learned about Christianity Hulagu
  • Operator 1 June 2019 22: 10 New
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    <I> Secondly, already specifically to “alternatives”: please, you don’t need to prioritize your point of view as the only correct one, but if you still think that this is the case, but you aren’t academicians of the Russian Academy of Sciences, please refer to your sources deep awareness </ i>

    Alternative historians - gumilevtsy will protect you under a pile of quotations of his idol about the miraculous passionarity (the philosophical stone of history) laughing
  • Krasnoyarsk 1 June 2019 22: 15 New
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    = First of all, suggestions: (It would probably be better to write “First of all I OFFER”) I am not against “alternative” points of view on the course of history, but let's discuss them in the materials about the Mongols, and not the class belonging of the author of commentators, (" commentators' "this is beyond my comprehension) as well as their nationality and prospects of the world revolution. =
    If you do not find fault with the style, then we must agree with the proposal of the author.
    = Second, it’s specifically to the “alternativeists”: please do not a priori consider your point of view as the only correct one, =
    I’ll make a reservation, I’m not an “alternative person” even once, but I don’t agree with such a statement of the question! Why can you consider your point of view to be the only correct one, and to some "alternative" NIZZA ?!
    = Also note that articles not by candidates and doctors of sciences published on popular sites, including VO, but without reference to the literature used in them, are NOT ACCOUNTED. Any fiction we can write today, anyone =
    If you shorten the text and leave only semantic subtext, it will turn out - "No one has the right to write his own opuses in VO except me !!!"
    Well, the author cited a list of the literature he used, and so what? Does this prove that the author of the tutelka tutelka told us the true story of the existence of the Mongol Empire? Not at all.
    The author brought us a certain geographical map in evidence of the existence of the Mongol Empire. And who made it up? Is it possible that the “cartographer” in the adjacent to the khan's yurt, having rolled the skin of a sheep on his knee, painted these things? Or maybe the author himself or someone else, but the same "historian" as the author, in evidence of his innocence?
    But my question is - what is an empire? Perhaps this is a centralized state? No? Federated? No? But still - the state? Maybe yes! One of the attributes of the state, even the seediest, is money. Give me the monetary unit of the Mongol Empire. Tugriks? No. Tenge? Also no? Really dinars? No, dinars are not Mongols. It is a little off there. Writing. Where? Alphabet where? Well, the empire is !!! Next is the capital. Where? What was it called? Roman Empire - Rome, I know. Byzantine Empire - Constantinople, I know. Mongolian? Empire? No, I do not know. Heard some are fucking. Maybe realities, and maybe not fiction. Bogolyubsky left Kiev and everyone knows - the capital is in Suzdal, and then in Vladimir. Or maybe the other way around - first in Vladimir, and then in Suzdal (memory, you understand.) The main thing was to know where the capital is - the table, the princely. This is not khukh-mukhra. And here - somewhere, they are digging something, and that is being dug up unknown.
    = But ... the death of people at that time was perceived (albeit for various reasons) as a tragedy, =
    What sources did the author learn from? Fraud of petty injury.
    = To this in the same Middle Ages all sought, and, above all, Christians and Muslims. =
    "And then Ostap suffered" Who is it all? And herders - shepherds, and farmers, and artisans? All were directly preoccupied with the advancement of their faith. Author, calm down, slow down. You claim the historicism of your opus.
    = Moreover, it was the “choice of faiths” by Prince Vladimir that became the very point of bifurcation that could change the whole course of world history =
    Here the author used the word "bifurcation" and immediately became smarter in our eyes. "bifurcation" it somehow sounds like a peasant. Yes?
    = Correspondence of Pope Gregory IX with the Georgian Queen Rusudan has been preserved, from which one can clearly see the concern for his Mongol expansion, = (better - "I can clearly see his concern ...")
    This is where the reference asks - the booklet is such and such, the publication is such and such, the page is such and such. So I would like to read what Grisha and Rusudan corresponded with there. What were they really worried about?
    = The pope did not like the claims of Khan Ogedei to world domination, since the Holy See itself sought the same! =
    If this phrase is intended for the textbook history of the second grade, then all right. And for a scientific article somehow not comme il faut.
    = Why did the popes not like the Mongols? =
    Killer question. And whom did dad love?
  • Krasnoyarsk 1 June 2019 22: 52 New
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    = ... when Khan Munke (here the year of birth, the years of reign (by what? Mongol empire?), year of death) would openly declared the need for continued Mongol expansion and the expansion of the empire to the West to the "last sea".
    Author, what do you smoke? "Openly stated" (?) On TV or what? Or in his yurt in his yurt?
    = ... the campaign of Khan Khulag and the destruction of Baghdad, Aleppo and Damascus. = Who is it, what and when did it rule? Years of life?
    Bethlehem - Thomas from Anya. Most of all he was indignant in the statements of the khan not so much the demand for submission, as the words about the divine origin of the power of the Mongolian kagan. =
    I hesitate to ask - did Thomas himself from Anya tell you about his indignation?
    = Did Hulag want to become a Christian? =
    But didn’t you ask Thomas from Anya? You have a connection with him, as I understand it.
    = ... however, Pope Urban IV didn’t really believe this ... =
    So believed or not believed?
    = ... new ulus, this was an innovation that was not traditional for the Mongol ruling elite to divide the empire between the sons of Genghis Khan =
    A non-traditional separation provided? The author writes with such intricate phrases that it is just right to invite a linguist.
    Hulagu - who is he? Khan? What rules? The ulus of the Mongol Empire or the ulus of the Golden Horde?
    Author, you began to write about the Mongolian empire, so write not with fragmentary phrases, but from creation to disintegration.
    Further commenting is simply impossible. Because, no matter what the phrase, then - a masterpiece, the late Zadornov would have trampled to the fullest.
    Touches pictures of allegedly Byzantine soldiers. Perhaps tysyatskie and had such a "outfit", but not ordinary and even foremen. And even the aglitsky inscriptions in the pictures do not convince me, but rather the opposite.
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  • lucul 2 June 2019 02: 41 New
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    First of all, the proposals: I am not against “alternative” points of view on the course of history, but let us discuss in the materials about the Mongols precisely them, and not the class affiliation of the author of commentators, as well as their nationality and prospects of the world revolution. AT

    For all the great and mighty Russian language, there is always a bit of misunderstanding.
    What am I talking about? In Byzantine history there are many descriptions of various peoples, radically different from the usual and seen earlier. This is a detailed description of the Huns as a SEPARATE people, as well as a detailed description of the Slavs, also as a SEPARATE people, different from the usual environment of the empire. And all this was recorded almost 1 years before the arrival of the Mongols
    As follows from the official history, the Mongols are representatives of the Mongoloid race, with narrow eyes and yellowish skin. And they were quite different even in appearance from the Arabs of the Semites. Accordingly, the description of the Mongols was supposed to go as a SEPARATE people and a kind of surprise from the unusualness of strangers, as for example among the Huns. But this is not. In the Byzantine chronicles, the Mongols are mentioned routinely - as the usual neighbors of the Arabs. That is, there was no cultural shock when they appeared, as for a representative of another race.
    What, accordingly, is conceived as speculation — were the Mongols proper — representatives of the Mongoloid race?
    1. Sertorius 3 June 2019 08: 47 New
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      The answer is on the surface. Mongols in Western companies were initially few. And with the advance to the west - less and less. Those with whom the Byzantines fought are familiar to them Türks in the service of Genghisids.
  • rexby63 2 June 2019 10: 46 New
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    Could, but ... did not change.
    Why are you sure about this? Nobody knows how the course of history would go, accept Vladimir as the state religion, Islam or the western version of Christianity
    1. kalibr 2 June 2019 17: 11 New
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      And let's try to imagine?
  • Operator 2 June 2019 14: 34 New
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    Quote: Pancher88
    feudal princes were required to receive Horde labels

    Show at least one label for a specific principality. laughing

    The German emperors, the French and British kings, the Scandinavian kings received the right to suzerainty from the popes, for which they paid church tithes ("output" in Russian).

    PS In Russia, the Tatars called all Türkic-speaking (with the exception of the Mongols and Tunguses).
    1. Pancher88 2 June 2019 15: 41 New
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      And demonstrate at least one eagle of the Roman legion. No? So there were no Roman legions))) And then maybe you can demonstrate at least one label for a great reign? And these are dumb? Oh yes, the labels are not preserved. Like many historical documents. Which of course does not cancel the very fact of their surrender to the Grand Dukes. As well as specific.
      Did the French and English kings and Scandinavian kings go to Rome to beg for permission to rule in their kingdoms? And the dukes with counts and barons? But the popes themselves decided who would rule where? Seriously? )))
      In fact, in all these countries, kings were crowned themselves without asking permission from Rome. It was enough to be a Catholic. And they were never vassals of the Pope. So do not have fantasies.
      Nobody shakes what the Russians thought there. In fact, only the Mongols were a newcomer layer of invaders, and all kinds of Türks were the local population of Desht and Kipchak. And in the Golden Horde, as well as in Iran and Khorezm, the Türks retained their positions, including the Turkic nobility. Which was the reason for the ousterization of the Mongolian small elites. So there is practically no difference with Russia. That there the Russian nobility was preserved, that the Türkic nobility was preserved in the desht and Kipchak, Khorezm and Iran.
      And what about the Roman Empire? Was Judea with its kings part of a Roman power? And why, then, the entire Roman Empire on the maps are painted in one color, without separately highlighting on it the lands of all kinds of kings, leaders, "friends of Rome", "allies" and other federates?
      1. Operator 2 June 2019 21: 30 New
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        Give a link to the specific prince's label.

        The popes sanctioned (claimed) the coming to power of the German emperors, kings and kings. Otherwise, the popes excommunicated the overlords from the church - as in the situation with the German Emperor Henry IV.

        Before the arrival of the Huns in the 3 century AD the whole territory of present-day Kazakhstan and Central Asia was inhabited by Iranian-speaking peoples - Scythians, Sarmatians, Sogdians, etc. They switched to Turkic (with the exception of Tajiks) as a result of language assimilation by the Huns. After 900 years, the Mongols came to this region, also Turkic-speaking. Therefore, it makes no sense to talk about which of the two Turkic-speaking nobles retained their positions after the coming to power of the ethnic Mongol Tamerlane.

        Turks are Turks - even an owl on a tree stump, even a stick on an owl laughing

        On the territory of Russia, after the emergence of feudal dependence on the Golden Horde, no Turkic nobility (old, new, Hun, Mongolian, Tatar) were observed from the word at all, since Russia was not a colony, but a vassalit.
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    2. Pancher88 4 June 2019 09: 11 New
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      Give a link to the label of the specific prince

      Easily hi For example, Ivan Fedorovich Starodubsky in 1355 traveled to Horde to Khan Dzhanibek, where he begged for that label for this specific principality. Or here is Konstantin Vasilievich Suzdalsky. In 1341, Khan Uzbek gave him a shortcut to the following specific principalities: Nizhny Novgorod, Gorodets, Unzha. And also his son Andrei Konstantinovich, who also went to the Horde for a label on these destinies (not a great reign, I note). "In the summer of 6863. Prince Andrei Kostyantinovich, upon the death of his father, went to Orda to Tsar Dzhanibekui taking the degree of his father, Suzdal and Novgorod, Nizhnyaya and Gorodets. And you came to Russia to your homeland with the king and gray-haired king of Suzdal." Please note that he is forced to secure the inheritance of his father in the Horde, and not simply by the fact of inheritance, as was the case in normal feudal relations. Another famous case draws us Plano Carpini. After the death of Andrei Mstislavovich, the specific prince of Novgorod-Seversky specific princedom, executed in the Horde, his younger brother comes there to work on a label for this inheritance. Again we see that the inheritance cannot be simply inherited by tribal law, but must be transferred to the khan. His brother's request was granted, but the Mongols forced him to publicly copulate with Andrei's widow. According to Mongolian custom, in order to inherit the property of a deceased brother, one should also marry his widows. Those. here we see how the Mongols "respect" Russian customs and reckon with them laughing No way. For them, Russian lands are the usual part of their ulus. And they judge them according to their traditions. Boris Vasilkovich Rostovsky. In 1244, Boris, together with his uncle Vladimir Konstantinovich, prince Uglitsky, and other princes traveled to the Horde "about their homeland," that is, to bother the khan with the assertion of himself and his younger brother Gleb as hereditary inheritance; Batu "judged them once in their own homeland, and [they] came with honor to their land." His brother Gleb Vasilkovich Beloozersky also went to the Horde in 1244 to confirm his inheritance Beloozero. And in 1277 he again traveled to the Horde to receive a label for a new Rostov inheritance. Obviously remaining after the death of his brother Boris. Fedor Rostislavich Cherny in 1260 traveled to the Horde to Khan Mengu-Timur to receive a label for the specific Yaroslavl principality. Dmitry Svyatoslavich Yuryevsky in 1250 traveled with his father to the Horde to receive a label on the Yuryevsky inheritance. Prince Andrei Ivanovich Serpukhovskaya in 1341 traveled to the Horde to receive a label for this very destiny. And again, Konstantin Vasilievich. This time, Rostov. Also in the Horde procured a inheritance. Vasily Vsevolodovich Yaroslavsky in 1239, one might say, in hot pursuit traveled to the Horde "about his homeland." Those. receive the right to inheritance. Vasily Dmitrievich Kirdyapa and his brother Semyon in 1394 traveled to the Horde to understand about the specific Nizhny Novgorod principality. The essence of the proceedings was that the Grand Duke of Moscow Vasily the First had procured a separate label for this specific principality in the Horde.

      The popes authorized (claimed) the coming to power of the German emperors, kings and kings.
      Yeah now tongue No one asked the Pope there, everything was decided locally, and the pontiff was simply confronted with a fact. It was enough for the new king, king or emperor to be a Catholic. If the pope could choose who would be the king of France, England or the king of Norway, then all this would be decided not by feudal showdowns on the ground with the use of heavy cavalry, but by intrigue and sedition in Rome. Which by the way, we are perfectly observing in Sarai, where the Russian princes constantly traveled to beg for an inheritance or a great reign, simultaneously kissing the Horde loins, slandering and intriguing against each other. The decrease in the level of strife and strife in Russia in the Horde period compared with the period of pre-Mongol fragmentation was due to the fact that now everything was decided not by squads on the battlefield, but in the capital city of Sarai. The pope could not do anything like that even in dreams.

      Otherwise, the popes excommunicated the overlords from the church - as in the situation with the German emperor Henry IV.
      This is precisely what he excommunicated, and did not deprive the title of emperor and rights to the empire. For it was not in his competence. Dad could neither elevate him to the title, nor deprive him, nor give him lands, nor take them back. All that the Roman pantik was capable of was a purely moral impact. Amateurs like you, who heard something about Canossa there, believe that the emperor lost in that fight. Although in reality he not only remained emperor, but ultimately defeated all his enemies and killed Pope Gregory. But the Khan of the Golden Horde could, by wave of his left heel, both elevate him to the Grand Dukes and rob any Russian prince of his title, land and life. By the way, subsequently excommunications from the church generally ceased to mean something and the kings and emperors simply placed a large device on them. For these were only words. The second excommunication imposed by Gregory on the same Emperor Henry turned out to be an empty phrase. And it all ended up in the fact that a simple French nobleman slapped the pope in the face and dragged his king to France as a handmade toy. So here the popes supposedly could approve and remove the kings))) It is strange only that no one removed the French king then. Like the excommunicated Henry)))

      came the Mongols, also Turkic-speaking


      SHIELD? TURKING MONGOLS? fool Lord, with whom I argue! Turkic-speaking Mongols, Karl. Oh, how did these experts in history with a secondary special get to me? laughing Well, of course, who has the Turkic-speaking Mongols, to what we stumble, what about the stump. He has a tree there wassat You’ll be surprised, but the Mongols, they’re the most ... Mongol-speaking, which means that the Turkization of the Juchi ulus, as well as the Chagatai and Ilkhan uluses, took place because the local Turkic elites remained in power and in managerial places. So the higher Mongolian stratum, under their cultural influence, became a part of the rule. The Tamerlan you mentioned is a typical example. So the Russian regions of Ulus Juchi here did not differ from the rest of its regions. There everywhere on the ground, at the lower and middle levels, the local aristocracy has been preserved. By the way, the presence of the former Polovtsian nobility in the Golden Horde is confirmed by archeology. For example, the burial place of the Polovtsian khan who lived already in the Horde time (the barrow of the Korolevino tract near the village of Taganchi).

      On the territory of Russia after leaving the feudal dependence on the Golden Horde, no Turkic nobility (old, new, Hun, Mongol, Tatar) was observed from the word in general

      You do not know the history of Russia from the word at all. They grabbed the Internet nonsense upstairs and are trying to make people laugh. You recall how many of the Russian aristocracy descendants of the Horde? Unless of course you even knew about it. In how many Russian nobles, boyars and princes, the founder of the clan is this or that "who has left the Horde." Yes, what about the princes. Three Russian tsars have direct Horde ancestors along the male line.
      1. kalibr 4 June 2019 11: 00 New
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        Very good and competent comment! More like these here. But ... it's not destiny!
  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 39 New
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    Quote: Nikolay S.
    arranged for pickets in the center of Penza into one of his faces in support of Yeltsin ... during the reign of Yeltsin.

    I didn’t arrange it, you too much ascribe to me, even the “Penza comrades of this kind” never wrote anywhere, but participated in one. And why not participate? To have an idea about the picket, you do not have to look at it from the side, you have to take part in it! And about everything else ... do not bother to repeat, I just for all this ... urinate in the wind! There is only one benefit from your writings - you made a click and, as they say, thanks to that!
  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 47 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    The pope did not like the claims of Khan Ogedey to world domination, since the Holy See himself sought to do the same! =
    If this phrase is intended for the textbook history of the second grade, then all right. And for a scientific article somehow not comme il faut.

    There are no scientific articles. Here are popular science ...
  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 49 New
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    Quote: Operator
    In Rus, the Tatars called all Türkic-speaking

    Princess Mary at Lermontov speaks Tatar ... and yet not Tatar! So just like that!
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  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 52 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Touches pictures of allegedly Byzantine soldiers. Perhaps tysyatskie and had such a "outfit", but not ordinary and even foremen. And even the aglitsky inscriptions in the pictures do not convince me, but rather the opposite.

    If you knew how such pictures are created, then ... nonsense would not have written. However, this story will be. With the epigraph from your comment - do you mind?
  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 54 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    I hesitate to ask - did Thomas himself from Anya tell you about his indignation?

    Do not be shy - you need to ask! He informed the pope. Document in the Apostolic Library of the Vatican! There will be an article about it ...
  • kalibr 2 June 2019 14: 57 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Give me the monetary unit of the Mongolian empire. Tugriks? Not. Tenge? Also no? Are the dinars? No, the dinars are not the Mongols. It's a bit out of there. Writing. Where? Alphabet where? Well, the empire !!! Next - the capital. Where? What was the name? The Roman Empire - Rome, I know. Byzantine Empire - Constantinople, I know. Mongolian? Empire?

    There was further about the name of the person who asks a lot of questions. When pro hands on the Internet.
  • Asan Ata 3 June 2019 00: 07 New
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    One 84-year-old Italian, a very enlightened man, told me that Italians owe the steppes at least two things: Venice and pasta: Venice arose as an island city thanks to the Huns, the fear of which drove people to the islands; pasta, or rather a recipe for cooking dough, brought Marco Polo after his voyages to Asia.
    What am I talking about?
    After the Huns, Catholics considered the steppes to be the force that could destroy their dominant. And over the centuries they followed the covenant of destruction and fragmentation of this enemy.
    What can I say, if in 1921 academician Bartold, a very respected Turkologist, at the congress of the peoples of Central Asia invited the Uzbeks to make the Andijan dialect of the Uzbek language state language. And thus, the Uzbeks lost their native language, which Kazakhs speak today, and blood relationship with Kazakhs.
    Uyghurs, who earlier called themselves "taranchas" - farmers, they were also invited to be called "Uyghurs." Since then, this people considers itself the sole heir to the great Uyghur civilization, whose descendants are equally distributed among the Turkic peoples of Central Asia!
    And this is 1600 years after Atilla!
    That is, the work of the pope, who bowed to Atilla, lives and thrives in our time!
    1. Operator 3 June 2019 18: 25 New
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      Venice as a pile settlement in the sea lagoon was founded by the Slavs - Vendians for 1500 years before the arrival of the Huns on the Adriatic.

      Where and when Catholics "crushed" steppe people? This steppe (Huns, Mongols and Magyars) "crushed" Catholics.

      Academician Vasily Vladimirovich Barthold was Orthodox.

      Uzbeks and Kazakhs ethnically coincide with each other only on 25% in the part of the C2 haplogroup. At the same time the basis of ethnic Uzbeks are indigenous Sogdians (haplogroup Y2), and Kazakhs all 100% are made up of the descendants of alien nomads - the Huns (S2), Mongolia (S2), Tatars (N1c1), Aryan (R1a), etc.
      1. Pancher88 4 June 2019 09: 24 New
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        Venice was founded by the Slavs in the 10th century BC? This is where such nonsense is written?
  • kalibr 4 June 2019 15: 58 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Author, you began to write about the Mongolian empire, so write not with fragmentary phrases, but from creation to disintegration.

    The author did not undertake to write about the Mongolian empire from the word at all. Read the article title ...
    1. DWG1905 4 June 2019 19: 23 New
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      Written sources are an interesting thing, but if they do not fit with the modern data of genetic research, climate change (physical and geographical conditions), linguistics means they are not interpreted that way, they are tied to the wrong period. I am interested in the question of who they were by ethnic and racial composition, in which state language the generally understood majority of the population spoke. What physical and geographical conditions have developed for population growth and how have they worsened (poles have shifted?) So that movement can begin, they do not run away from a good life.
      Since this is a complex task and each science sits in its own house, the result is negative and causes many complaints from the public. With the advent of the Internet, curious citizens saw a bunch of inconsistencies. I accidentally came across a scientific book, it shows the thickness of organic sediments in the Arctic Ocean from river discharge depending on the time period, here the heat of deposition was large, then cold it was small, so the climate changed significantly. People naturally bowed where it is warm.
      The question is, of course, about the dating of events, i.e. time intervals between various events associated with changes in physical and geographical conditions. A written source is only one element of the input data for research. Let's say there are no forests in Russia over 300 years old (mountainous areas do not count), everything burned down, put into firewood? After that, I began to pay attention in the forest to the trees, the largest pine trees about 800 mm in diameter. But after 300 years, it is yesterday and there are no reasonable explanations. Here you need a calm systematic approach. For myself, I realized that Russia is the direct heir to the Golden Horde, with all the ensuing circumstances (mental, ideological, state system), it so happened that we became the main ones in this part of the world, were a province. And we are the descendants of the conquerors and the conquered, and they were most likely related peoples, you cannot crush genes with your finger. Naturally, this does not exclude the participation of small nations in the process, so the Mongol tribe entered Afghanistan.
      History is not needed on its own, but to predict tomorrow.
      Who is interested in the near history of "iron" (and it’s hard to find the ends), I ask in my blog
      BTT drawings http://drawingstanks.blogspot.ru/
      BTT in M ​​1: 43 http://drawingstanks.blogspot.ru/p/blog-page.html
      Toys of the USSR http://drawingstanks.blogspot.ru/p/blog-page_26.html
      1. kalibr 4 June 2019 19: 26 New
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        What interesting things you wrote!
      2. Yaik Cossack 4 June 2019 20: 48 New
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        Oh, about the forests - this is a long-standing favorite feature of the Fomenkozholtsy. They constantly copy-paste it from each other. To explain to them the stupidity of the arguments of their gurus is useless, they will remain silent and will repeat it again. It's like about the minting of antique coins, the local fomenkoid, having managed, just started copying another.
  • Operator 4 June 2019 19: 43 New
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    Pancher88

    For more than a century and a half, you could hardly count only 14 cases of Horde khans intervening in the hereditary rights of Russian princes, which testifies to this as an exception to the general rule of issuing labels only to great reigning. The same one-time violations of the principle of vassalage occurred from time to time in Western Europe.

    The popes did not need a "asking" - they themselves excommunicated this or that seigneur, after which the other seignors enthusiastically finished him off and privatized his inheritance (it was not a papal affair to crush his hands).

    You are a true Tatar historian - the Turks are not one ethnos, but many ethnos: Ugrofinians (Tuvans and Yakuts), Northern Semites (Azeris and much of the Uzbeks), Asian Celts (Turkmen), Asian arias (Kirghiz), the Mongols and Tungus themselves, well and all sorts of different mestizos (Volga and Crimean Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, etc.). It is called - the Turkic language family (based on the native language of the Tungus).
    A complete analogy with the Slavs, which include arians (Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Poles), Illyrians (various Yugoslavs), Hamites (Bulgarians) and Celts (Czechs). It is called - the Slavic language group of the Indo-European language family (based on the Aryan native language - Sanskrit).

    Descendants of the Türks in a straight male line among the Russian nobility were a few percent.
    Prizes for the whole history of the Russian kingdom were ruled by four houses: Rurikovich (not Türks), Godunovs (not Türks), Shuiskys (not Türks) and Romanovs (not Türks).
  • Yaik Cossack 4 June 2019 20: 43 New
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    Quote: Semurg
    On the Internet, I read that the baptist of Russia ordered that Christian history be destroyed and rewritten, then, like Ivan the Terrible, he did this and brought all the scrolls to his library, which disappeared. Then Peter 1 and Catherine the Great rewrote history to fit their needs. This is not counting the scribes of the monks who made edits according to the current moment. Do you think how much “truth” is there in ancient history, because even in assessing modern history, for example, the collapse of the USSR or World War II, there is no final point over and.


    “It’s not better to turn on yourself, godfather,”
    What modern Kazakh historians did some somersault - we can not keep up. Once they wrote about the progressive entry of Kazakh zhuzs into Russia, and now about bloody Russian colonialism. Your leader Nazarbayev, by the way a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, has also spoken out repeatedly about the centuries-old oppression of Kazakhs by Russians. What do you think - when they brazenly lied - then or now?
  • Serge Nktio 6 June 2019 00: 50 New
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    Let the newbie get in. Maybe I missed something. But. There was such a writer on historical topics, Konstantin Penzev. Already, unfortunately, the deceased. And in one of his books (“Princes of the Ros. Aryan Blood”), he drew attention to the fact that Byzantine sources of the 13th century called the Mongols invading Iran, not the Mongols and Tatars, but TAKHARI (a more common version of this ethnonym - Tohara). More specifically, we are talking about the book of George Pachimer, "The Story of Michael and Andronicus Paleologues," and the book of George the Acropolitan, "History". Here it directly says "tahars", but the translator in the notes declares them Tatar-Mongols. Penzev also claims that the title “Toharas” is also used in the work of the Armenian author of Magakia, but when translated into Russian, it is immediately replaced by “Tatars”. And so, if we assume that the Mongols (or rather, apparently Moguls, without H) are Tohars (known people!), Then some problems are immediately resolved, but even more arise. For example, the Tochars are Indo-Europeans, they are never Asians. From excavated graves in northern China, it is known that they are not even black-haired. So the absence of rhinestones in Russian Mongolian genes is explained. But, on the other hand, the Tochars created completely settled states. For example, the Empire of the Great Kushans on the territory of Bactria. Probably their descendants still live in Afghanistan and its environs, under other, naturally, names. But in the traditional (official) history, there is no Tohar state in the 12th and 13th centuries! Kushans were much earlier, and then disappeared somewhere. Well, and what to do with this information? The primary sources are quite reliable, and much more understandable than Rashid ad-Din. But official science ignores them! Ignores in the sense that he does not want to see that they have neither Tatars nor Mongols, but Tokhars.
    By the way, the Russian language retained the name Tohar. Remember the names of Tugarin and Tugarin. This is just them. Perhaps even some Tokarevs did not come from a well-known working profession.
    And further. For some reason, many do not pay attention to the Iranian basis of many "Mongolian" (or "Tatar-Mongolian" words). But it seems to me that the Horde is Arta, the central concept of the ancient Iranian religion (something like "sacred truth"), Yasa is Asa, or Asha from the same opera, and even Tatars and Tat are Iranian words. Tat is the original self-name of the native Iranians (Persians), which was subsequently borrowed by some of the surrounding peoples. And the Tokhars seemed to be relatives of the Iranians in their language ... It is surprising that everyone is looking towards the Turks and the present Mongols (who are the Khalkha), and Iran (in the broad sense, and this is the Sarmatians and Saks and Scythians) does not pay attention. But maybe I'm wrong, and just do not know something?
    1. Operator 6 June 2019 01: 23 New
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      Tats are a Turkic word for non-Turkic people.

      The indigenous inhabitants of the Iranian highlands are northern Semites, and, accordingly, their native language is Nakh. After cultural and language assimilation by the Black Sea Aryans, the inhabitants of the Iranian Highlands began to call themselves Aryans and use Farsi (Pfarsi) - a hybrid of Sanskrit and Nakh. Persians / Parsons / Parfaits is the name of a group of local Aryan tribes. In 1935, the Iranian leadership changed the name of the country from Persia to Ayran (the country of the Aryans).

      Tokhars are Uigur relatives, mestizo: 30% - carriers of the Aryan R1a, 20% - carriers of the Celtic R1b, 20% - carriers of the North Semitic Y2, the rest are Mongolian X2, Chinese O3, etc. The difference between the Tochars and the Uighurs is only in the language: the first were Iranian-speaking, the second were Türkic.
      1. Serge Nktio 6 June 2019 02: 06 New
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        Your information is radically different from what I had to read. And this was far from non-fiction. Do not prompt more reliable sources of information?
        1. Operator 6 June 2019 12: 17 New
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          For the origin of the names "tats", "Iran", as well as genuine and "false" tokhars - see Wikipedia.

          As for the ethnic basis of various nations - see the picture diagrams on the Internet using the search key "haplogroup of such a people."

          On the methodology for determining the ethnic basis - see Klesov's articles on the site pereformat.ru

          PS If it is possible, then it is better to address your questions to me in a personal, and then the VO website on articles with a large number of comments hangs not childish.
          1. Serge Nktio 7 June 2019 18: 27 New
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            Who is Klesov, and what are haplogroups, I know. And I look at the reformat. And books are available. Conducting a genetic analysis in living Uyghurs is one thing, but how can I conduct a reliable genetic analysis in a long-extinct people - here I am in great doubt. Can you take good genetic material from Tabum mummies? Moreover, there are some serious literature on Toharas, including monographs. Wikipedia after all this is simply uninteresting and even dubious. The issue of the essence of Tohar can be discussed for a very long time, and, of course, this is not for comments. And I recall the book of Igor Godovich Semenov (Doctor of Historical Sciences, an abstract can be found on the Web) "History of the countries and peoples of the Western Caspian Sea (1st millennium BC)", Kazan, 1994. Unfortunately, the book is rare, but very meaningful. The main interest of the author is the Khazar Khaganate, and the polemic with L.N. Gumilyov is clearly felt. But the level of argumentation and the richness of the quoted sources impressed me. And as for the Tat, I believe what Semenov said, who also didn’t come up with this himself, he has links to academic Iranians.
            For all that, these are all purely private issues. What I wanted to draw attention to were the Byzantine authors, where the Mongols are called Toharas in plain text (it’s more difficult to check Magakia, everything has already been erased). I do not claim any far-reaching categorical conclusions. Just wanted to pay attention. It seems to me that there is something to think about.
  • Operator 7 June 2019 18: 38 New
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    Quote: Serge Nktio
    how can you conduct a reliable genetic analysis of a long-vanished people

    The DNA of bone remains is taken from the nervous tissue of the teeth, the world record for today is the definition of a haplogroup of Illyrians from graves in the Balkans with an age of 45000.

    The Mongols involved in their conquests a lot of different nomadic tribes from Central Asia. It is quite possible that the Tokhars were in the forefront of the Mongol-Tatars in Asia Minor and were in direct contact with the Byzantines.
    1. Serge Nktio 7 June 2019 19: 19 New
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      That the Tochars were at the forefront is so far only your guess. It is possible, but it must be proved. Byzantine authors of the 13th century did not find any clues. Tahars - and that’s it. The translator (s) in the notes write that they are Tatar-Mongols. And they don’t explain anything. Specialists in the Tatar-Mongols cannot but know about this incident, but I have not seen an explanation from them either. They pretend that there is nothing.
      By the way, Semenov’s book can be downloaded from here:
      https://stmegi.com/library/books/istoriya-stran-i-narodov-zapadnogo-prikaspiya-1-tysyacheletie-novoy-ery/
      Open reading, the whole file will be downloaded, and it can be downloaded. See page 207, it says tat. I came across translations of Sasanian inscriptions, where the Iranian nobles had the names Tatars and Tatars. It is almost 1000 years earlier than the 13th century. If necessary, I can recall what kind of book it was.
      As for the genetic analysis of ancient bones, it is, of course, great, but it is hardly believed that such magic is put on stream, that everything always or in most cases turns out, and that one or two cases make it possible to draw a conclusion about the whole nation. And this provided that for Tohar such an analysis was really carried out. Tarim mummies are northern China, the graves are very old, and the objects that are found in them, no one seems to consider Uyghur. And the Chinese have frozen these studies. Something they did not like. Apparently, the ancient greatness of the Chinese nation is not confirmed.
  • Sunstorm 9 June 2019 16: 00 New
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    Quote: just EXPL
    much better .
    look for info about Tarim mummies and mummies in South America.
    a lot of questions will arise, the answers to which traditional history refuses to give.
    and this is just the beginning. in history there are so many things that do not fit with the official version.
    and the same genetics asks good questions.
    and among alternativeists, the Germans have this version - they are an artificial people, the western part of the Celts, the Eastern Slavs, they were gathered into one state after baptism, and they gave a common language, and for several centuries they created a common culture.
    the tractionals had only German barbarian tribes that destroyed Rome and so on. and Slavs like they survived centuries before.
    and geneticists have shown east is r1a, west is r1b.

    Pure water is nonsense and profanity .... Bother to find out what "assimilation" is ... Try to find out a little from the "traditional" about Albrecht the Bear and Heinrich Leo ... And can you pour proofs about the destruction of the Slavs and not "assimilation"?
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  • kKonstantin2 April 9 2020 10: 29 New
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    I am always amazed by the confidence of historians in the correctness of the existing version of history, despite all its contradictions. The author of the article behaves in the same way.
    The fact that in the story with the Mongols everything is completely wrong, examples confirmed by sources can be cited endlessly.
    For example, the Scythians left the historical arena in the 4th century (Wikipedia), although there are authors who write that this happened earlier, but the Byzantine author Nikifor Grigora (Roman history, t1) writes that Genghis Khan was a Hyperborean Scythian, and emphasizes that these are the very Scythians about whom Herodotus and Homer wrote. After that, the story that we know must be buried. But there is a way out, you can write that Grigor is mistaken, this is a standard technique for historians. But the fact is that the whole story consists of such examples, I can give these examples endlessly.