Russian guy shot down "Focke-Wulf" from a mortar

Calculation of 82-mm mortar BM-37. Stalingrad. 21.10.1942

Without a small 75 years ago, a unique case occurred on the old town: a Soviet Focke-Wulf aircraft was shot down by Soviet 82-mm mortar 41 infantry regiment 84 rifle fire.

Immediately I would like to clarify that the mortar as weaponcompletely not designed to combat aviation. Its main use is to fire to suppress or destroy enemy manpower and firepower, located mainly in ravines, shelters, trenches and trenches. Mortars are also used to destroy light field structures, trenches, wire fences.

In order not to look like "fantasy", let's turn to the documents. From the award list to the squad leader of the 1 th mortar company sergeant Peter Petrovich Kalinin:
“In the battles near the village of YERZOVKA, the Stalingrad district of the same region, from 27 to 29 this September. Comrade KALININ destroyed two heavy machine guns, three company mortars and twenty-three enemy soldiers with the fire of his mortar. This ensured the advancement of the arrows. October 2, this year. Comrade KALININ, with his mortar, fired methodical fire on the leading edge of the German defense. At this time, a German plane FOKKE-WOLF appeared over the sector of shelling of com. KALININA. Tov. Kalinin quickly made the calculation and began firing his 82-mm mortar on an enemy aircraft. The third mine hit right on target, the enemy’s FOKKE-WOLF aircraft caught fire and crashed to the ground at the enemy’s location. ”

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/podvig-chelovek_nagrazhdenie11766664/

Sergeant P.P. Kalinin was awarded the order of the Commander of the Don Front, Lieutenant-General K.K. Rokossovsky Order of the Red Banner.

About Peter Kalinin himself know little. Born in 1917, candidate member of the CPSU (b) since 1942. He is one of those whose entire youth passed on military service - in 1939, the Taganrog GVK was drafted into the Red Army. I'd like to hope that Sergeant Peter Kalinin fought before the victory. At least in the lists of the dead or missing it is not. In the year 1985 three Petr Kalinin 1917 year of birth were awarded the Order of the Patriotic War. But it was difficult to say whether our sergeant, who shot down a German plane from a mortar, was among them.

Comments

[Grandfather]

Russian guy shot down "Focke-Wulf" from a mortar

yes ... it’s harder than a hiller ...

[Korsar4]

A good video. Up to the details, like a patch on a sleeve with a German flag.

[iouris]

To begin with, the Germans did not fight the Czechs, so the Czech could not bring down a German plane.

[iouris]

This is an alternative reality created by advanced American technology.

[Dalailama]

Not really - agipropom. From the article:

Immediately I would like to clarify that the mortar, as a weapon, is not at all designed to combat aircraft. Its main use is to fire to suppress or destroy enemy manpower and firepower, located mainly in ravines, shelters, trenches and trenches. Mortars are also used to destroy light field structures, trenches, wire fences.

I would immediately like to clarify that the infantry suffered the main losses from mortar fire in the open. For one entry into the trench, several hundred mines are needed, and vice versa, one mine on unprotected anti-fragmentation armor is enough to kill several soldiers.

[Dooplet11]

He didn’t go on a date yesterday ...

[Nikolaevich I]

"Sexy Czech girl shot down a plane ..." hoe. Cool was at Leo ..... birthday!
PSA, actually, once this video was shown on Russian sites without mentioning "Czech" ....

[Fitter65]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

But actually, once this video was shown on Russian sites without mentioning "Czech" ....

It’s just that the Czech company Eduard advertised the appearance of its next Bf-109G6 model on a scale of 1: 48 with this video. Therefore, it’s also logical for Czech.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Fitter65

It’s just that the Czech company Eduard advertised the appearance of its next Bf-109G6 model on a scale of 1: 48 with this video. Therefore, it’s also logical for Czech.

By-and-a-e-t!

[Amurets]

At this time, a German aircraft FOKKE-WOLF appeared over the shelling sector of Comrade KALININ. Comrade Kalinin quickly made a calculation and started firing from his 82-mm mortar on an enemy aircraft. The third mine hit the target precisely, the enemy plane of the FOKKE-WOLF brand caught fire and crashed to the ground at the enemy’s location. ”

For the reminder of this incident, the author thanks and I want to hope P.P. Kalinin stubbornly went through the whole war. But this is not the only case when planes were shot down from weapons not intended for air defense
What miracles just do not happen? War in Korea "On July 3, 1950, four F-80C Shooting Star fighter-bomber pilots led by the commander of the 80th fighter-bomber squadron, Major Amos Sluder, went to the Pyongyo Ri area to attack the North Korean front-line equipment ..... However, an unexpected response from the North Koreans followed: the T-34-85 opened fire from 85-mm guns at low-flying aircraft.
A successfully fired shell exploded in front of the lead aircraft and damaged fuel tanks with fragments. A fire broke out on board. Captain Verne Peterson, who went as a follower, told Major Sluder on the radio: “Boss, you are burning! You better jump. ” In response, the commander asked for a direction to the South, where he was obviously about to turn, but at that moment the plane collapsed and burning debris crashed to the ground. Major Amos Sluder was the first pilot of the 5th Air Fleet to die in the fighting on the Korean Peninsula. "
Bodry destroyer March 26, 1942, a German bomber in the Tuapse region shot down 130 mm main-caliber guns.

[Dooplet11]

I suppose the Fokke-Wulf most likely could only be the Rama, so unloved by our foot soldiers.

[bubalik]

"Rama" like flying high?

[Dooplet11]

Fact: The award sheet is dated December 1942.
The second fact: The case of the shooting is dated October 1942.
Third fact: Place of downing, - Erzovka Stalingrad district.
Now we look, where and when on the Eastern Front appeared PV-190. We don’t look at Condor at all; in October, he has nothing to do with the 42 above the front line in the Stalingrad region, and two more months to encircle the 6 army. Only Rama remains the method of exclusion. And the other Focke-Wulfs at that time in the infantry did not know. It’s difficult to confuse the “Ram” with another plane. And the "Frames" flew in every way, even bombed and stormed on occasion.

[bionik]

Quote: Dooplet11

I guess Focke-Wulf could probably only be Rama,

By the way, about the "Rama", I read that there was such a thing shot down by the FV-189 from the PTR. I found the link:
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum7/topic1226789.html

[Zug]

Frames didn’t fly so low, while the wolves were flying too fast)))

[bubalik]

Frames didn't fly so low

[Zug]

Yes, in the newspapers there are a lot of things to write — at fv 189 such equipment stood that from the height of 10 thousand meters in the back of the ant the hair could take pictures — they didn’t fall as low as I didn’t read, they tried to intercept thousands of three meters or more

[bubalik]

The Order of the KZ was not so easily given

[Zug]

I do not claim that this case was not ...

[iouris]

I do not claim either. It may very well be, although unlikely. This is similar to cases repeatedly described in fiction: "... who shot, where did he hit?"

[Ivan Tartugai]

Quote: bubalik

Order of KZ so simple did not give

They shouldn’t just give it, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t give it.
For example, Ruslanova received the Red Star in friendship with Zhukov.
And the nurse under Zhukov, Lydia Zakharova, also received the Red Banner, the Red Star, and another half a dozen medals, such as For Courage and others.
Yes, a lot of dexterous and fighters, and officers, and generals received all sorts of orders and medals for friendship, for fawning, for other non-combat "merit."

[Dooplet11]

Could not FV-189 with 10 thousand meters of hair in the back of the ant photograph. I can argue.
At the same time, with the sixth charge, the maximum height of the mines flight path is of the order of 1500 m. Rama may have more than enough reasons to drop to 1000m. In addition to photographing, the Rams were engaged in adjusting the fire, and even attacking.

[Zug]

watch a movie from the series-The Hour of Truth-the Kursk Bulge — ours overwhelmed Fok 189 — our quality went astray! —the photo equipment was amazing. and the scouts with cameras under them flew under 8 or how they were used for these purposes. 88 per 189 m mark did not make sense at all!

[Dooplet11]

Look TTX FV-189. Ceiling 7tys with copecks. We will continue to argue about 10 thousand? And about 1000 ... October. Autumn . What cloud height can it be? Or mortars fired and Rama flew only with a clear sky? This is only one reason I called for 1000 to decline. "Forgetting" about the attack. :)
The facts of the cycle "Hour of Truth" should not be taken on faith. Better double-check. Archives store photos of air reconnaissance. Can be found on the net. The quality of German shots is good. But the hair of an ant with 10 ™ cannot be seen on them. Maximum, a separate tank or plane with 3-4 tm decrypt. And then, if not disguised.

[Zug]

10 thousand meters is just a turnaround — and why don’t I believe the transfer? —The professionals have been studying materials for years — and 7 thousand by the way decently, but the fact that mortar calculation knocked down the frame is from the collection of the library — the fantasy section is the fifth shelf on the left. I have not heard so that the frames storm something, maybe some unprotected targets ... but so that the defense line ... in short, this article simply cut off a fairy tale from the cycle-100 with an ax when the Germans took away his rifle and about Pavlichenko with her 340 Germans in less than a year at the forefront .by the way 7300-practical ceiling-maybe higher

[Dooplet11]

The practical ceiling of the aircraft (English service ceiling) is the maximum height of the actual use of the aircraft, helicopter [1]; the highest altitude at which, when flying at a constant horizontal speed, there is still an excess of thrust (power) sufficient to perform the lift at a certain vertical speed [2]. This vertical speed is usually defined as 0,5 m / s [3] (or 100 feet per minute [4] for reciprocating and 500 feet per minute for foreign turbojet aircraft). (C)
What about the weather and cloud cover over the leading edge? :)
"Just a turn" or an argument you cited as evidence of altitude? Be careful with the revs. 100 ax, - Rudel didn’t say that. Nothing, believe.

[Zug]

Listen, I’m --- 10 thousand or 7300, the difference is not great — their equipment was excellent — I never heard. I didn’t read that 189 would be hit from the ground with such things — you’ll fill him up with the fighter, and the Germans aren’t fools to 500-1000 meters, flying over directly forward positions. You want to believe in a mortar sniper — it's your right. To “drive out” such a flyer, our fighters usually called in — it wasn’t possible to get it from the ground .. And he usually dived from a height of speeds over 600. Our such speeds could not stand and, falling apart — their standard care — a steep peak to the ground and home.

[Dooplet11]

I didn’t hear that the frames stormed something, maybe some unprotected targets ...

“At the end of the 1942, a peculiar“ ersatz-stormtrooper ”Fw189A-4 appeared in small numbers. This car retained the scout's glazed gondola, but the MG17 wing machine guns were replaced by two MG FF 20-mm cannons. In addition, engines, fuel tanks the cockpit was partially covered from below with thin armor. "
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_189_U
hu

[Zug]

This is an attack aircraft, I'm talking about a scout. What then they remade it is unknown to me

[verner1967]

Quote: Amurets

Successfully fired shell exploded in front of the lead plane

the shell was okay, my parents told me that in the newspapers they wrote how a Vietnamese peasant, from despair, shooting an bow at an American helicopter shot him down, damaging his fuel tank, which caused a fire to burn. I don’t know, is it true that the newspaper was Soviet. And the mortar man did well, I thought he accidentally got in, but he, it turns out, hit accurately.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: verner1967

how a Vietnamese peasant, from despair, shot from an bow into an American helicopter shot him down, damaging his fuel tank,

Not a peasant, but partisans ... not from a bow, but from a crossbow .... not into the fuel tank, but into the pilot's neck
(The landing was supposed to be ... the Americans did not know that an ambush was organized at the place of landing by the partisans)

[verner1967]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

crossbow...

at the Vietnamese partisan .... he rambo was Or are you confusing something?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: verner1967

a Vietnamese partisan .... was he Rambo or are you confusing something?

M-d-ah! So in your opinion: the peasant from the onion struck (!) The fuel tank is naturally !!! ??? And the partisans from the tribe, where the crossbow has been handed down since childhood and do not part with it day and night, fell into the pilot's ambush when the helicopter almost landed and the porthole was opened due to the heat, is it incredible!?

If anyone confuses, it’s not me, but the author of a book with the title .......... of the type “Vietnam War: an inside look”

[verner1967]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

So in your opinion: the peasant from the onion struck (!) The fuel tank is naturally !!! ???

this is not in my opinion, but according to the Soviet newspaper. Now about the crossbow, rummaging through the literature I found:

However, primitive or not, in good hands, the crossbow turned into a well-aimed and noiseless messenger of death. A month before, in the base camp of the 1st Division, deployed in An Khe, a helicopter was shot down with an arrow from a crossbow: it hit the tail of a car and got stuck in a steel casing.

or

From the novel of an American journalist who served in Vietnam in 1966-67.
"The Viet Cong were making large crossbows with arrows eight feet long, their mechanism was triggered by a gust of wind, and they were able to shoot down a helicopter."

So I take Rimbaud and the crossbow back, but the case of damage to the helicopter’s materiel was still an arrow and, apparently, not one.

[hohol95]

By the way, in one of the documentaries about the actions of Soviet advisers in Vietnam, information slipped -
the commander of a partisan detachment — killing American helicopter pilots from a crossbow — while being on vacation in Northern Vietnam, was jealous of a girl (a guy fell in love) a former translator with Soviet advisers! And he tried to arrange a “DARK” one of the advisers! The adviser turned out to be also a good boxer - he filled his face and ROMEO and his 2 or 3 friends! After that, a call came from the Vietnamese to DUEL - it was proposed to shoot from crossbows! The adviser was sent back to the Union! A partisan ROMEO was sent to fight with the Americans!

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: verner1967

From the novel of an American journalist who served in Vietnam in 1966-67.

American journalists ?! Surely ! The most truthful and educated representatives of the "second oldest" profession! Well, how can you not believe them?

Quote: verner1967

"The Viet Cong were making large crossbows with arrows eight feet long, their mechanism was triggered by a gust of wind, and they were able to shoot down a helicopter."

Yo mine! You would notice how "fake" and these phrases are indistinctly perceived !!! "Able to shoot down a helicopter" : 1. The journalist was “inspired” by the watched Hollywood movie, where the mythical Odysseus kills an “equally mythical dragon” from the “wall-hung” device, and?!; will drink. yes who will give him! " ?
3.And why do not you explain this indistinct phrase: "from the blow of the wind"?

Quote: verner1967

a helicopter was shot down by an arrow from a crossbow: it hit the tail of a car and got stuck in a steel casing.

Freshly legend. Yes hard to believe!
And for dessert, here is the entot fragment from the article:
The Americans quite seriously admitted that the Vietnamese shot down their helicopters with the help of crossbows of a special design and extraordinary power. According to rumors, the Viet Cong had a training camp in which they fired from such crossbows at a model of an airplane tied with ropes. Of course, such a fantastic version is untenable due to the extremely low efficiency of such weapons, not to mention common sense.

[verner1967]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

American journalists ?! Surely ! The most truthful and educated representatives of the "second oldest" profession! Well, how can you not believe them?

Well, yes, I forgot, only Soviet journalists wrote the truth in us, remember the information you criticized from the Soviet newspaper about the bow and helicopter)))) That's it, the circle has closed ...

[hohol95]

From the novel of an American journalist who served in Vietnam in 1966-67.

"The Viet Cong were making large crossbows with arrows eight feet long, their mechanism was triggered by a gust of wind, and they were able to shoot down a helicopter."

"The Viet Cong were captured in a cave about 100 meters long. There were 50 women and children with them; they were all hiding in the cave as a bomb shelter. Men did not admit to being partisans, convincing that they were ordinary peasants.

They were peasants. Only during the day and at night they became Viet Cong fighters. It was these people who controlled the neighborhood and supplied passing NEA regiments. We emerged from the jungle, and VK fighters crowded into a clearing: they squatted and were silent. Their weapons were composed side by side in two pyramids: seven carbines, an AK-47 assault rifle, four crossbows and a large number of ammunition. It struck me that the Viet Cong, whom we called the “Gang in Black Pajamas,” used such primitive weapons as crossbows. However, primitive or not, in good hands, the crossbow turned into a well-aimed and noiseless messenger of death. A month before, in the base camp of the 1st Division, stationed in An Khe, a helicopter was shot down with an arrow from a crossbow: it hit the tail of a car and got stuck in a steel casing. "

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: hohol95

Quote: verner1967
From the novel of an American journalist who served in Vietnam in 1966-67.
American journalists ?! Surely ! The most truthful and educated representatives of the "second oldest" profession! Well, how can you not believe them?
Quote: verner1967
"The Viet Cong were making large crossbows with arrows eight feet long, their mechanism was triggered by a gust of wind, and they were able to shoot down a helicopter."
Yo mine! You would notice how "fake" and these phrases are indistinctly perceived !!! “Capable of shooting down a helicopter”: 1. The journalist was “inspired” by the watched Hollywood film, where the mythical Odysseus kills at least a mythical dragon from the “wall-hung”, device!?; 2. vodka? Drink something will drink. yes who will give him! " ?
3.And why do not you explain this indistinct phrase: "from the blow of the wind"?
Quote: verner1967
a helicopter was shot down by an arrow from a crossbow: it hit the tail of a car and got stuck in a steel casing.
Freshly legend. Yes hard to believe!
And for dessert, here is the entot fragment from the article:
The Americans quite seriously admitted that the Vietnamese shot down their helicopters with the help of crossbows of a special design and extraordinary power. According to rumors, the Viet Cong had a training camp in which they fired from such crossbows at a model of an airplane tied with ropes. Of course, such a fantastic version is untenable due to the extremely low efficiency of such weapons, not to mention common sense.
Nikolaevich I
2 hohol95 Yesterday, 20: 23 ↑ New

[Amurets]

Quote: verner1967

his parents said that in the newspapers they wrote how a Vietnamese peasant who, from despair, shot from an bow into an American helicopter shot him down,

Everything can be. There is a book Kolesnik. N.N. "The Vietnam War ... How It Was" There are many different episodes of that war. There are the most incredible, but mostly these are stories of our specialists who were former or fought in Vietnam at that time.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Amurets

A successfully fired projectile (85-mm tank) exploded in front of the lead aircraft and damaged fuel tanks with fragments. A fire broke out on board.

I will not argue very much, not “Copenhagen” in this “question”; but ... "some doubts": a projectile with a contact fuse (without self-destruction) exploded in the air in front of the aircraft ???
PS Actually, there is an opinion that the German tigers often fired from the 88 mm wok at the Il-2 attack aircraft and sometimes shot them down. But we must remember that the tiger tank’s cannon is a “converted” 88 mm anti-aircraft gun ! The tank crews could get hold of deuterium and anti-aircraft shells!

[Amurets]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

PS Actually, there is an opinion that the German tigers often fired from the 88 mm wok at the Il-2 attack aircraft and sometimes shot them down. But we must remember that the tiger tank’s cannon is a “converted” 88 mm anti-aircraft gun ! The tank crews could get hold of deuterium and anti-aircraft shells!

So the 85-mm tank gun of the T-34 tank was also made on the basis of an anti-aircraft gun: "Work on the 85-mm tank D-5 was started in January of the 43rd year, they were led by Petrov. The barrel with 52K ballistics was used in the gun"
https://topwar.ru/16207-otechestvennye-tankovye-o
rudiya-protiv-tigrov-i-panter.html
52K gun Nowadays, strong and weak qualities of the 85-mm Soviet and German 88-mm anti-aircraft guns were repeatedly discussed. Indeed, “aht-komma-aht” has covered itself with fame and has earned a reputation as an excellent weapon. But the fact is that the 52-K was not much inferior to her in anything. And in the same way she dropped German planes to the ground and stopped the tanks. https://topwar.ru/119921-rasskazy-ob-oruzhii-85-m
m-zenitnaya-pushka.html

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Amurets

So the 85-mm tank gun of the T-34 tank was also made on the basis of the anti-aircraft gun: "Work on the 85-mm tank D-5 was started in January of the 43 year, they were led by Petrov.

Incidentally, the D-5 gun was installed on the T-34 tank temporarily (!), Before the production of the 85-mm tank gun ZIS-S-53 ... D-5 was produced in a quantity ... somewhere around 4,5 and ZIS-S-53-in count ... approx. 26.000! What do you think, how much D-5 could survive by the end of the war? However, it doesn’t matter ... The C-53 was also created on the basis of the 52-K. Here is just the ZIS-S-53 ammunition ...:
The following shells are available for this gun:
BR-365A - armor-piercing blunt-headed chamber projectile
BR-365K - armor-piercing pointed-headed chamber projectile
BR-365P - armor-piercing projectile
BR-367 - armor-piercing shell with armor-piercing tip and ballistic cap
O-365K - high-explosive fragmentation shell
Where are the shells with a remote fuse (tube)?

[Amurets]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

de here shells with a remote fuse (tube)?

I did not write about shells with a remote tube: But here is the list of ammunition that the ZiS-S-53 cannon could fire: Ammunition of the S-53 gun
Mark of a shot Type of a shell Mark of a shell Weight of a shot, kg Weight of a shell, kg Weight of explosives, g Mark of a fuse Muzzle velocity, m / s Range of a direct shot at a target with a height of 2 m Year of adoption
Armor-piercing shells
UBR-365 armor-piercing blunt-headed with a ballistic tip, tracer BR-365 16,00 9,20 MD-5 or MD-7 800 950
UBR-365K armor-piercing sharp-headed tracer BR-365K 16,20 9,34 MD-8 800 900
UBR-367 armor-piercing sharp-headed with protective and ballistic tips, tracer BR-367 DBR-2 post-war period
UBR-365P armor-piercing reel-type sub-caliber, tracer BR-365P 11,42 4,99 — — 1050 1100 1944
UB-367P armor-piercing streamlined sabot, tracer BR-367P 11,72 5,35 — — 1024 1140 post-war period
High-explosive shells
UO-365K steel one-piece anti-aircraft fragmentation grenade O-365 16,30 9,54 660 KTM-1 or KTMZ-1 793
UO-365K steel fragmentation grenade with transition head O-365 16,30 9,54 660 KTM-1 or KTMZ-1
UO-367 steel full body fragmentation grenade, with a reduced charge O-365K 9,54 741 KTM-1 or KTMZ-1
Practical shells
UPBR-367 practical continuous, tracer PBR-367 —
Pay attention to fragmentation shells: UO-365K steel one-piece anti-aircraft fragmentation grenade O-365 16,30 9,54 660 KTM-1 or KTMZ-1 793 What ammunition was loaded into the tank by the Koreans, neither I nor you know. They could upload anything, as long as it fit.
https://armyman.info/artilleriya/tankovye-pushki/
32076-85-mm-tankovaya-pushka-obrazca-1944-goda.ht
ml

[Nikolaevich I]

So ... you need a spook! We close our eyes .... we breathe calmly and rhythmically ... we see a bird’s glittering river in the sun, flowing among the magnificent mountains .... And now "again": Korean tankers go into battle with infantry equipped with bazookas (!) ; with anti-tank artillery (!); with enemy tanks (!) ...... will they “collide” with enemy aircraft? “FIG knows him!” And since 2MV the tactics of escorting advancing units with air defense systems have been known! What for the Korean tankers shells "with a remote tube"? And now, please be kind. Explain to me: what manipulations should be done. To "correctly and accurately" install the dist handset? How long will it take? What is needed for this? Do you need range (to set the time)? And how to determine the range (time) with an acceptable error? Keys are needed ... with which only anti-aircraft guns are equipped? And now honestly and logically say: do you believe that the American plane was shot down by a shell with a dist. Tube, or was it a direct hit?

[Amurets]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

And now honestly and logically say: do you believe that the American plane was shot down by a shell with a dist. Tube, or was it a direct hit?

I know only one thing, that barrage was fired against airplanes.
“It was all about the difference between the tactics of the air defense in the USSR and the allies. The latter did not rely on obstructive fire, which leads to the senseless consumption of a huge amount of ammunition, but on aimed, pre-emptive and accompanying fire, which was carried out according to the data of gun guidance stations and radar . " The fact that the plane was shot down accidentally is not in doubt, but for the sake of a red word, the correspondent can write anything. In addition, for some reason they forget about the visual effect. An example from how ignorant journalists describe the firing of anti-aircraft guided missiles: a direct hit by a missile destroys a missile; a missile hits a plane and other crap ... It never happens - the warhead of a missile fires at a certain distance from the target, depending on the type of missile.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Amurets

I know only one thing, that barrage was fired against airplanes.

Here! This phrase alone is enough to "explain" ,, what happened ,,!

[Zug]

They shot down, in an interview with a stormtrooper veteran, he mentions that during an attack on the left of a neighbor at the exit, a shell hit me, Ila burst in the air

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Zug

They shot down, in an interview with a stormtrooper veteran, he mentions that during an attack on the left of a neighbor at the exit, a shell hit me, Ila burst in the air

In the book "In the harsh air" by Vasily Emelianenko, the fact of a tank shell getting into an airplane is described.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Stroporez

The fact of a tank shell getting into an airplane is described.

Direct (contact!) Hit! And here: a shell rupture in the air!

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Direct (contact!) Hit! And here: a shell rupture in the air!

It describes the direct hit.

[Zug]

Yes, yes, I read, it was a matter of sadness of course ...

[bubalik]

the fact that a tank shell hit the plane.

Fadin Alexander Mikhailovich (10.10.1924 - 10.11.2011)

The brave commander of the tank twice presented for the assignment of the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. The first time he was presented to the heroic rank in November 1943 of the year for the difference in the battles to liberate Kiev. The performance reached the Military Council of the 38 Army. The commander and a member of the Army’s Military Council decided to award A.M. Fadina Order of the Red Banner.

The second time he was presented to the heroic rank in February 1945 of the year for the difference in the battle for Dashukovka in the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky offensive operation. This time the performance reached the Military Council of the front. The commander and member of the Military Council of the Front did not leave a written decision on the award sheet. The assignment of a heroic title did not take place.
http://www.bvtkky.ru/alleya/ratnaya_slava_nashih_
vipusknikov / fadin_aleksandr_mihaylovich.html

Alexander Mikhailovich recalled: “The plane cruised along this line and, knowing approximately the distance between the posts, I calculated its speed. It was small, on the order of 50-60 kilometers per hour. When the plane dropped the cargo and flew past us, I decided that if he will turn around, I’ll try to bring him down. I give Fetisov a command to unscrew the cap and charge it with fragmentation. The plane turns around, I take the lead - a shot. The shell hit him right in the engine, and the plane broke. "

This does not happen on the battlefield every day, machine-gun points and armored personnel carriers are common, but to shoot down an airplane from a tank ,,,

http://sovsojuz.mirtesen.ru/blog/43015228005/Podv
ig-tankista-Aleksandra-Fadina



http://podvignaroda.ru/?#id=30690560&tab=navD
etailDocument

[faiver]

I agree with you - a rupture of a shell of a tank gun in front of an airplane is a bullshit - only a direct hit ...

[Dooplet11]

The ammunition included:
1 - UBR-365P round with a BR-365P projectile (sub-caliber armor-piercing projectile tracer "coil" type);
2 - UBR-365 shot with a BR-365 projectile (blunt-headed with a ballistic tip with tracer localizers);
3 - shot of UBR-365К with a projectile BR-365К (pointed-head tracer with localizers);
4 - shot UO-365К with a shell O-365К (steel fragmentation all-case grenade with fuse KTM)
Source: http://www.tucson-club.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=
128380 & page = 17
The KTM fuse had a remote handset, if not mistaken.
Therefore, the "bullshit" is not worth rushing.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Dooplet11

4 - shot UO-365К with a shell O-365К (steel fragmentation all-case grenade with fuse KTM)

The KTM fuse had a remote handset, if not mistaken.

The KTM-1 fuse (the most common) did not have (!) A remote tube!

[Dooplet11]

I do not argue. You are probably right.
"The list of ammunition for the 85-mm rifled towed gun D-44 and tank guns ZIS-S-53 and D-5T, D-5С
...
For shooting from cannons can also be used:

Shot 53-UO-365 with anti-aircraft fragmentation steel shell 53-O-365
Shot of the 53-UO-365M with the anti-aircraft fragmentation steel shell 53-О-365М and the charge 54-Ж-365 or 54-ЖН-365 "
http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=1
2065.0

[faiver]

those. the North Korean gunner from the plow calculated the speed of the shooting-old distance and set the time for the undermining of the projectile? I belittle you

[Dooplet11]

And who pointed North Korean anti-aircraft guns? Not the same gunners "from the plow"?
This is so, by the way. The Americans could confuse who hit them, tanks, or anti-aircraft guns. Now, only to guess who, but Sluder was shot down!

[faiver]

Well, anti-aircraft guns were clearly not directed by North Korean tankers
could kanesh mix up ..
my grandfather fought there ..

[Dooplet11]

So the tank platoon could command LiSiTsin.
"Platoon! Anti-aircraft projectile, Distance ... Volley! Fire!"

[LiSiCyn]

All ... Have to confess it's me, shot down the plane !!! But, he shot at the crow (she was sitting on a pillar), the crow managed to get up, the shell went after her .... And then, these .... I, only means Mishka, oh, that is, Mina, I say: "SchA smells." ... Suddenly, from behind the hillock "shooters", and straight to the raven ... Major battles, just Agony, were, wore for three years !!! But Mishka, the Colt got a flask with viskar ....

[Dooplet11]

"Manual on fire business. Rules of firing from tank weapons, 1941"
Table of Contents:
"Introduction
Chapter first. Shooting training
Chapter Two Stop shooting
1. General information
2. Fixed target cannon shooting
3. Machine gun shooting at a fixed target
4. Shooting a gun at a moving target
5. Machine gun shooting at a moving target
Chapter Three Short Stops Shooting
Chapter Four Shooting on the move
1. General information
2. Fixed target cannon shooting
3. Machine gun shooting at a fixed target
4. Shooting a gun at a moving target
5. Machine gun shooting at a moving target
Chapter Five Shooting in various conditions
1. Shooting at night
2. Shooting in the mountains
3. Air Shooting
4. Crew exit from the tank and grenade throwing
Application"

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Dooplet11

And who pointed North Korean anti-aircraft guns?

Maybe you meant: "who pointed North Vietnamese anti-aircraft guns?" In any case, not North Vietnamese tankers.

[Dooplet11]

No, I spoke for the Koreans. But anti-aircraft guns and they did not induce tankers. And, probably, not always Koreans.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Dooplet11

And, probably, not always Koreans.

Well, yes ........ these were the Chinese!

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Amurets

But this is not the only case when planes were shot down from weapons not intended for air defense

During World War II, there were probably a lot of cases of downing enemy aircraft from various weapons. There are references in both fiction and non-fiction. After all, they shot at airplanes from everything that can shoot.
After all, it is not for nothing that in the film of Bondarchuk there is a scene of a shot down from the PTR. And given the fact that Bondarchuk was a front-line soldier, such facts cannot be in doubt.
However, I believe that to bring down a plane with a shot from a mortar or tank, I consider it an accident.

[Amurets]

Quote: Stroporez

However, I believe that to bring down a plane with a shot from a mortar or tank, I consider it an accident.

So do I. During WWII, a method of setting up water columns from main-caliber guns in front of an attacking aircraft was used against torpedo bombers and tank-top officers. EMNIP. The first to use it were the American destroyers in Pearl Harbor
And these are ours in the Baltic: P. Tsupko “Torpedo bombers ....” A sudden attack did not work; the Nazis met the aircraft with concentrated obstructive fire. First, the destroyer began firing. Five of his long-range main-caliber guns opened fire simultaneously, as if on command. But they did not shoot at the planes, but in front of them at the water. Very far from the ship — for fifteen, eighteen kilometers — heavy hundred and twenty-seven-millimeter shells thrashed into the water, exploded and lifted huge bursts of pillars to the sky, almost twenty meters high. The destroyer’s guns were fired so often that some pillars still didn’t have time to settle down, as new ones rose nearby; connecting with neighboring ones, they formed an almost continuous fence and thus blocked the path of the torpedo bomber to the target. "But here, too, there is only obstructive fire and an element of an accidental collision of an airplane with a water column.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Amurets

During WWII, a method of setting up water columns from main-caliber guns in front of an attacking aircraft was used against torpedo bombers and tank-top officers. EMNIP.

I sometimes think how little we know about the Great Patriotic War and regret that I did not record the stories of war veterans at one time.

[bionik]

Comrade Kalinin quickly made a calculation and started firing from his 82-mm mortar on an enemy aircraft. The third mine hit the target exactly, the enemy plane of the FOKKE-WOLF brand caught fire and crashed to the ground at the enemy’s location

Most likely as they say with a fool, and not an accurate calculation. As I watched the docfilm "Defending the Sky of the Motherland" it says that to shoot down one plane, about 600 shells had to be used up, and with the help of a POISO !!!!!!!!! And here from three minutes on a moving target !!!!!!!!

[Sling cutter]

Quote: bionik

And here from three minutes on a moving target !!!!!!!!

If you take into account the rate of fire of the mortar, taking into account the reconfiguration of the aiming, the speed of the aircraft is around, even in the wilds I will not climb, 300km / h = 83,33 m / s.
Although the Shumov brothers are legendary people.
The basis for the success of the calculation of the Shumov brothers was the high speed and accuracy of shooting. During the January battles, the Shumovs “hung in the air” up to 18 minutes. When the first reached the goal, the brothers loaded the twentieth into the mortar. Mines exploded in the enemy camp every three seconds, creating the illusion of firing a rocket mortar.
In one of the battles, the Shumov mortars skillfully hit a target located on the return slope. Mines flew from the barrel of the mortar almost up and plummeted onto a slope that was not visible from our side. Acting on a tip from an observer, mortar bombers hit with mounted fire many targets inaccessible to other types of weapons.
And so that foker came under the mounted fire, which led the calculation of the mortar. Here I would also like to say that during firing, the calculation has no special time to observe the air situation.

[Dooplet11]

Any accident is an unconscious pattern. :)

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Dooplet11

Any accident is an unconscious pattern. :)

Philosophy her mother

[Dooplet11]

No, it's math.

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Dooplet11

No, it's math.

It seems that this is more "Theory of Probability", again, her mother

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Stroporez

After all, it is not for nothing that in the film of Bondarchuk there is a scene of a shot down from the PTR. And given the fact that Bondarchuk was a front-line soldier, such facts cannot be in doubt.

PTRs were quite actively used as an improvised anti-aircraft defense system. During the time of V.O.V. PTR (S) ... five-shot., But five-shot PTR (D) were considered the most effective! An axle with a cartwheel was used as an “anti-aircraft” machine. In some places, they even used target-shooting practice firing (plywood similar to an airplane sliding on ropes stretched from the tops of tall trees to the ground ....)

[bionik]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

As the "anti-aircraft" machine used the axis with the wheel of the cart.

[bionik]

And not only the cartwheel has any emphasis for shooting.

[bionik]

And then just off the shoulder.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: bionik

And not only the cartwheel has any emphasis for shooting.

Of course! About the cart wheel is a bit "exotic" And, probably, this is a well-known option ...

[Andrey NM]

One of our tank crews said that a German plane was shot down from a gun above the front line, although there was a biplane there. His interview was published in one of Drabkin’s books. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the name of the tanker, but I have this book, you can find it if it’s important. So there are more than one cases with that intensity of hostilities.

[Korsar4]

Terkin:

"Not an anti-aircraft gunner, and not a pilot.
And the hero is no worse than them. "

[parusnik]

The case when a stick shoots ...

[igordok]

Except for this case.
During the defense of Sevastopol, the commander of the 2th mortar company of the 31th infantry regiment of the 25th Chapaevsky infantry division, Captain Vladimir Polikarpovich Simonok (later Hero of the Soviet Union) shot down a low-flying German aircraft from a 82-mm mortar.
I came across an article about the downing of aircraft from Katyusha. The Katyush unit commander, having noticed a group of enemy aircraft at low altitude flying in the Katyush zone of fire, delayed a salvo. Having opened fire afterwards, several planes were shot down or damaged. Unfortunately, the repeated search for the article did not give any results.

[Amurets]

Quote: igordok

I came across an article about the downing of aircraft from Katyusha.

Anti-aircraft "Katyusha" during the Second World War, was engaged in Lieutenant Baranov.N. And. Little is known about him. This is a quote from the "Wiki" and additionally see the link: http://yablor.ru/blogs/protivosamoletnaya-katyush
a-baranov / 4614314
anov / 4614314
"Baranov, Nikolai Ivanovich (1916 -?) - Soviet self-taught missile designer, former toolmaker of the Leningrad Linotype plant. He is considered one of the fathers of Soviet anti-aircraft missile weapons, as the first designer who confirmed in practice the fundamental possibility of defeating enemy air attack weapons missiles and the high efficiency of this type of weapon in comparison with traditional anti-aircraft artillery, as well as having proved the fundamental possibility of organizing small-scale production of anti-aircraft weapons of this type in a semi-artisanal and factory way according to the drawings provided in wartime conditions at enterprises in the frontline rear. "

[igordok]

Thank you, about the anti-aircraft "Katyusha" I am in Kursk, and it seems about them, in the article was. But hitting non-specialized PSUs on planes is a rarity, often an accident.

[Amurets]

Quote: igordok

But hitting non-specialized PSUs on planes is a rarity, often an accident.

Here I completely agree with you.

[Andrey NM]

The use of RS as an anti-aircraft weapon was mentioned in the memoirs of one of the fighter pilots. After the first use, the "shooter" was covered in dirt and soot, but the enemy planes drove off.

[Freeman]

igordok Today, 09:18
I came across an article about the downing of aircraft from Katyusha.

You can recall the use of rockets by our Air Force in air battles with Japanese aircraft at Khalkhin Gol.
In August 1939, for the first time, RS-82 missiles were used for the first time in combat, mounted on I-16 fighters of an air group (commander - Captain N.I. Zvonarev), an organizational unit of Major G.P. Kravchenko.
Under each wing console of these machines, four rail guides for 82-mm caliber RS-82 powder rockets were installed. To reduce the fire hazard, the linen sheathing of the lower surfaces in these places was replaced by duralumin. On the control handles reinforced buttons elektrozapalov.

The experience of using the RS-82 against air targets showed that the advantage of this weapon is its wide range of destruction, and its main disadvantages are its large dispersion and the absence of a remote fuse on the rocket. From the pilot was required to very accurately determine the distance to the target, otherwise rockets exploded with a shortage or with a flight. But even in the case of the correct calculation of the distance, the defeat was not guaranteed, since the fuse timer gave a large variation in the moments of operation.
In total, from August 8 (the day of the first departure of aircraft with suspended RS-82s) to September 15, 1939, the group completed 59 sorties and participated in 16 air battles using rockets, and in 6 battles using machine gun fire. At the same time, 17 enemy aircraft were shot down by Soviet pilots (I-97 - 14, SV-96 - 2 and LB-97 -1). In air battles 413 shells were used up (24,3 shells per one downed plane).
It is curious that the Japanese did not understand that rocket weapons were used against them. They believed that the Russians somehow managed to install large-caliber artillery shells on fighter jets that fire tracer shells

[Sofievka]

Precisely, I remember, they shot down in Sevastopol from a mortar, and on the street. Simonok lived my father-in-law

[Ham]

reminded the Amer film Air America ... there, too, the plane flies and below is a Vietnamese with a musket ... stupidly removes the musket from his shoulder and not aiming to shoot towards a flying plane ...
next scene: aerodrome team extinguishing debris

[andrewkor]

I watched this film in the video salon. I remember this episode very well, it only seems that the peasant had 98k Mauser.

[XII legion]

If the fact is reliable, then it is unique.
At what interesting height did the plane go?

[Nikolaevich I]

I read this Old (about a downed 82-mm mine plane) in my school years: it was said there by chance !!! (the shelling of German positions from 82-mm mortars was conducted; and here the German "scout" turned up foolishly ..)
PS Try to imagine how you can "aim" intentionally on a plane !!! ???

[Naputeon bonaput]

It is written, then it is possible. If in doubt, you are Russophobe.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Naputeon Bonaput

If in doubt, you are Russophobe.

W-l-e-ezny argument!

[Nikolaevich I]

PPS

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Try to imagine how you can “aim” deliberately on a plane

... from the mortar !!!

[faiver]

through the trunk

[Cat Marquis]

It's fake. The country needed heroes and wrote about "different" heroism. Think yourself with a mortar to take aim (it’s already impossible considering the aiming speed), then put a mine, wait for the mortar to “fart”, and then the slowly flying mine “gets” into the plane? Yes, this is pure nonsense. The plane could be shot down by a flying fighter — it flew about its business — it saw a “frame” —turned, gave a turn and, without seeing the result, flew on, and the “frame” also damaged then caught fire. So, I don’t believe in a downing of a plane with a mine, and even with an “aimed” shot.

[Dooplet11]

About aiming, indeed, one can doubt. A simple intersection of the trajectories of the aircraft and mines may have a certain probability. This does not detract from the merits of Sergeant Kalinin in the crash of the plane. In the real case, nobody will refuse to propaganda material. Hollywood as an example.

[svp67]

Quote: Cat Marquis

So, I don’t believe in a downing of a plane with a mine, and even with an “aimed” shot.

Sighting - no, this is not real, but you can shoot down. Mina rises to a height of 3 km and then begins to descend ... somewhere on some site there may well be a meeting with a plane flying at altitudes of up to 3 km ...

[svp67]

Without a small 75 years ago, a unique case occurred on the old town: a Soviet Focke-Wulf aircraft was shot down by Soviet 82-mm mortar 41 infantry regiment 84 rifle fire.

Let's just say this is of course an accident, which unfortunately often happened with our aircraft, especially with attack aircraft, for example:

Il-2, the crew (Lieutenant Philip Pashkov and Jr. Lieutenant Ivan Efremenko), came under mortar fire and was shot down while performing a combat mission in the Gogol area, May 30, 1943.

which is not surprising, since they flew at low altitudes and often suffered even from explosions of shells and their bombs.

[pro100y.belarus]

Accidentally hit or not - it does not matter. He shot ... and hit, but could sit quietly in a trench and smoke a cigarette.
Good luck accompanies those who seek it.

[mr.ZinGer]

One of our advisers recalls a completely anecdotal incident that took place in one of the discussions on the outcome of the first battles. The Deputy General Staff made a stunning statement:
"The missile fighters fought well, shooting down two American planes with twenty missiles."
These words caused bewilderment on the faces of Soviet specialists - after all, according to their calculations, 12 aircraft were shot down, but the report continues:
“But truly outstanding successes were achieved by the self-defense units of the girls, who, having adopted the combat experience of the self-defense units of the elderly, shot down 10 American planes from carbines, spending only twenty rounds on them ...”
Perplexity is replaced by amazement. Some of the advisers could not stand it:
“Why are we then sending you echelons of missiles? Let’s bring a cart of cartridges - it’s enough for all of the American aviation! ”
The Vietnamese pretended not to understand the remark, and after the meeting he went up to a group of advisers and tried to justify his words:
However, sometimes such "air defense systems" were used that previously could not have been dreamed even in a nightmare. As you know, the F-105 Thunderchief had an airborne terrain tracking system, which the Americans used to fly at very low altitudes. The Vietnamese, having noticed this, began to dig ditches on the favorite routes of American pilots, filling them with explosives with scraps of reinforcement. When the plane approached, this “infernal mixture” was blown up, and the plane, flying through an unexpectedly rising wall of fire and iron fragments, was significantly damaged. In such cases, the pilot often did not even have time to eject.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: mr.ZinGer

However, sometimes such "air defense systems" were used that previously could not have been dreamed even in a nightmare. As you know, the F-105 Thunderchief had an airborne terrain tracking system, which the Americans used to fly at very low altitudes. The Vietnamese, having noticed this, began to dig ditches on the favorite routes of American pilots, filling them with explosives with scraps of reinforcement. When the plane approached, this “infernal mixture” was blown up, and the plane, flying through an unexpectedly rising wall of fire and iron fragments, was significantly damaged. In such cases, the pilot often did not even have time to eject.

This is one of the myths of the Vietnam War ...

[BAI]

It is known that the Germans fired from mortars from IL-2. A case was recorded on Kursk - Yu-87 was shot down in a volley of Katyush batteries.
When there is so much metal in the air, sooner or later some piece of iron will fall into the plane.
Yes, the Americans had a chance - they dropped bombs on their lower flying plane. Hit, shot down.

[Dooplet11]

In 1987 in the USSR, 393 cases of collision of aircraft with birds were registered. https://ria.ru/incidents/20090116/159413848.html
The concentration of flying iron over the battlefield is always greater than the concentration of birds. A piece of iron, unlike a bird, is not afraid of an airplane, and does not try to turn it away. Hence the conclusion: there were more crazy hits of iron on the plane than we would like.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: BAI

Yes, the Americans had a chance - they dropped bombs on their lower flying plane. Hit, shot down.

This was not the only case. To significantly increase the effectiveness of the bombing and suppress German defenses, the Americans developed a multi-tiered construction of bomber battle formations. It was also estimated that with this “know-how” a certain percentage of the defeat of their bombers was inevitable ... and yet this battle formation was adopted for “arming”, because with the previous construction, losses from German air defense were significantly higher than "friendly losses"!

[alstr]

And if we recall the articles about ersatz last year’s anti-aircraft defense facilities for the ships of England in the war, including those based on mortars, the episode seems to be real.
But most likely, of course, everything was an accident. Like an airplane brand, it could be written incorrectly. Here, as with tigers. All that looks like a Tiger.
Most likely, this was the case. Mortars were treated by the Germans. Those were offended and called (as usual) air support. The Germans arrived and fell under a random projectile (for example, when entering or leaving the mortar battery).

And then they attributed both about aiming and about everything else (here it is necessary to IMHO pay tribute to the commander, who correctly composed a piece of paper).

[Ivan Tartugai]

Quote from the article:

In order not to look like "dreamers", we turn to the documents.

In order not to look like dreamers, it would be better to place a scanned document, for example, a presentation for rewarding from the regiment commander, a photograph of the hero, and not quotes from the document. The quotes are unconvincing.
Moreover, it was believed that during the whole war there was only one single casewhen the plane was shot down from a mortar. And the commander of the mortar company, the 31st Infantry Regiment, the 25th Chapaev Infantry Division, Vladimir Polikarpovich Simonok, shot him down.
He shot down near Sevastopol, on December 23, 1941, personally lining from an 82-mm mortar. Simonok VP received no reward for this. Everyone thought that the plane was shot down by accident, although Simonok claimed that he was shooting at the plane. On March 26, 1942, the hero of the defense of Odessa and Sevastopol, Captain Simonok, died in battle. The burial place has been lost.

[bubalik]

Ivan Tartugai Today, 16: 48 In order not to look like dreamers it would be better to

Do you think those who signed the award document did not know what they were signing?

Moreover, this fact appears in another award


https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/podvig-chelovek_n
agrazhdenie11766663 /

[Ivan Tartugai]

Quote: bubalik

Do you think those who signed the award document did not know that sign up?

The first document you submitted is not disclosed.
And in the second document in general no signatures, You submitted a small clipping without signatures.

[bubalik]

Ivan Tartugay Today, 19: 19

If it’s not difficult, go to the site “Memory of the People”
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/
Kabaidze Alexander Moiseevich .1918 born

[bubalik]

Ivan Tartugai In order not to look like dreamers, it would be better to place a scanned document

Battle log 41 cn 84 cd

Period from 29.08.1942 to 31.12.1942

TsAMO Archive, 6217 Foundation, 98855 Inventory, 10 Case

[sd68]

Do you yourself believe that the Fokke-Wulf Fw 189 spotter can be shot down by a mine?
He was a serious problem for fighters

[Dooplet11]

If you get, you can shoot down. Apparently, there were witnesses to the hit. In the practical case, if they were just looking for a reason to reward, they would have found a simpler reason. Destroyed, for example, five dugouts and to the company of the enemy. Go check it out.
Presentation for the award is not fools signed.

[Dalailama]

Practical ceiling is the height of the maximum speed of the aircraft. The hartman spoke, they stopped checking the photo machine gun on his personal order from the Fuhrer.
Before a company, a German mortar could destroy, because in the Soviet army was accompanied by armored personnel carriers with anti-fragmentation armor.

[Dooplet11]

Practical ceiling is the height of the maximum speed of the aircraft

Can I drag in the piggy bank "You can’t imagine it"? Flyers are neighing.
For reference: the maximum speed is Bf-109F4 610 km / h at 6000m, and the practical ceiling is 11000m.

[Dalailama]

Do they fly fishing with stewardesses on it? They will look at the height-speed diagram and laugh at you. Do not confuse the practical ceiling with the maximum height of combat use.

[Dooplet11]

No, the clouds are "breaking up"

Especially for you I will repeat the generally accepted definition of "Practical ceiling":
"Practical ceiling
aircraft - the highest altitude at which, when flying at a constant horizontal speed, the aircraft has a slight excess of thrust (power), sufficient to rise at a certain vertical speed. Usually, airborne forces take such a height at which the maximum vertical speed (for aircraft of various types) is 0,5 — 5 m / s. Due to the fact that supersonic airplanes can easily exceed spacecraft using the range of dynamic heights, this concept becomes conditional for them (see. Dynamic ceiling). However, airborne aircraft remains an important characteristic when comparing aircraft of various types and in controlling the quality of their serial production.
Aviation: Encyclopedia. - M .: Big Russian Encyclopedia Editor-in-Chief G.P. Svishchev 1994 "
But you can live with your understanding that there is a "practical ceiling". But do not climb with the flyers, they will laugh.

[Dalailama]

It happened before. Above the practical ceiling, the speed at maximum thrust drops, so it is certainly not practical to rise above it. Dynamic and static ceilings are completely different. Correct in the encyclopedia.

[Letnab]

What can I say, everything can be, probably remember how they discussed the penetration of a bullet by a bullet in Stalingrad. Iron really flew a lot along the front line, so whoever hit it, someone even on purpose ...

[sd68]

Comrade Kalinin quickly made a calculation and started firing from his 82-mm mortar on an enemy aircraft. The third mine hit right on target,

The invention is clear. Theoretically, you can believe in a random hit, but aiming is nonsense.

[sd68]

Specifically, this story is similar to a propaganda fake, then there were a lot of them, heroes were needed to follow.
According to Wikipedia, in September there was no 1942 Fokke Wulf 190 in the Stalingrad region, they appeared under Leninrad only, and it is impossible to believe in even accidentally knocking down the Fokke-Wulf Fw 189 frame.
Most likely, the plane simply crashed for some third-party reasons, and was ranked as a merit for the credibility of the award presentation

[Dooplet11]

Most likely, the plane simply crashed for some third-party reasons, and was ranked as a merit for the credibility of the award presentation

I think it would be more convincing for an award performance to "get a mine into the tank." He’s standing on a blank line, lined. There are fewer questions. And the plane, where is he? Fell on enemy territory? Where are the witnesses? (and witnesses can contradict each other!).
Another question is whether there was a hit on the plane sighting. It is on sight that you can make a propaganda fake, they say, know our people. Based on the fact of a real, rather random, downing.

[sd68]

if the tank was not there, but the plane-plane fell and attributed. Again, the merits of the unit went.
About aiming, as in the award, this is generally not serious.
And about the random - well, a purely heretical probability is present, and even with such a huge amount of "if" - what he did at low altitude, that the probability that he fell for independent reasons, for example, technical, is incomparably higher than such a hit, that seriously getting considered does not make sense.

[Mikhail Matyugin]

Quote: sd68

Specifically, this story is similar to a propaganda fake, then there were a lot of them, heroes were needed to follow.

Yes, I agree with you, very likely.

Quote: sd68

According to Wikipedia, in September there was no 1942 Fokke Wulf 190 in the Stalingrad region, they appeared under Leninrad only, and it is impossible to believe in even accidentally knocking down the Fokke-Wulf Fw 189 frame.

Here I am about the same. Fw190 nebylo at Stalingrad, and the "Rama"? Well, I don’t know, a high-altitude scout will fill up a bike with a mortar from a mortar ... although the Frames were light bombers and attack aircraft, but rarely ...

[Dooplet11]

Zug,

Listen, I’m --- 10 thousand or 7300, the difference is not great — their equipment was excellent — I never heard. I didn’t read that 189 would be hit from the ground with such things — you’ll fill him up with the fighter, and the Germans aren’t fools to 500-1000 meters, flying over directly forward positions. You want to believe in a mortar sniper — it's your right. To “drive out” such a flyer, our fighters usually called in — it wasn’t possible to get it from the ground .. And he usually dived from a height of speeds over 600. Our such speeds could not stand and, falling apart — their standard care — a steep peak to the ground and home.

Duck can be us, but:
1. LaGG-3 dive speed limit by RLE ~ 700km / h. At La-5, the order of numbers is similar.
2. The dive speed of the PV-189 was limited to ~ 450 km / h. It is no longer possible, the motor will spin up with a screw.
3. Typical actions for adjusting artillery fire: "In September 1944, my crew (navigator, senior lieutenant Krasulya) was given the task by the regiment commander: to fly out to the artillery area, establish radio communications and act as directed by the artillery.
After careful preparation at the airport, I flew out on a mission on an Il-2 aircraft under the guise of four Yak-9 fighters. Not reaching the location of the artillery chief’s NP, the navigator established a connection and was tasked with reconnaissance of the enemy’s active batteries and, upon detection of the latter, correct our artillery fire for these purposes. The goals of our intelligence were located on the reverse slope of the mountain near the village. They decided to conduct reconnaissance at an altitude of 1200 m as the most convenient for detecting point targets. Approaching the target area, we realized that it was difficult to detect the batteries, since the observed area was on the edge of the forest, facing the enemy, which made visual observation difficult. They decided to go from the rear from the side of the sun. Changing the course and altitude, I went to the territory of the enemy (15.00 time, cloudiness 23 score, altitude up to 1500 m). Moving 23 km away from the supposed location of the enemy’s batteries, we noticed 3 flashes at the edge of the forest at a distance of 200300 m from the road. By the nature of the flashes, the battery was approximately 152 mm caliber. Without wasting time, I turned around sharply and with a decline went in the area of ​​the target. From a height of 700 m, the goal appeared to us clearly and distinctly. "(Http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/59327/315/
Falaleev _-_ Sto_stalinskih_sokolov._V_boyah_za_Rod
inu.html)
3. Aerial photography can be “perspective” and performed from a small height
depends on the task.
4. FV-189 could get away from the fighters and be at low altitude: "The usual maneuver to exit the battle, used by the FV-189 aircraft, is to spiral to low altitudes and shave flight." (http://www.airpages.ru/mn/fw189_01.shtml)
5. You can believe it or not in the aimed hit from the mortar on the FV-189, but there is a certain probability of the intersection of the trajectory of the 82mm and FV-189 mines in the presence of a number of conditions for the low-altitude flight of the FV-189: low cloudiness, solved by the combat mission aircraft, avoiding enemy fighters.
PS. If you have not read about the downing of Rama at a very high height by fire from the ground, this does not mean that this could not be. However, you can stick to my arguments and we will continue to live.

[Dooplet11]

Dalailama,

DalaiLama Today, 13: 21 ↑
It happened before. Above the practical ceiling, the speed at maximum thrust drops, so it is certainly not practical to rise above it. Dynamic and static ceilings are completely different. Correct in the encyclopedia.

“Dynamic and static ceilings are completely different” - certainly.
"Correct in the encyclopedia." - write your own. Judging by the aplomb, you have every right. Then retrain aviators on it. I think you will succeed. And you will begin to understand these lads, "flying fishing with stewardesses."
By the way G.P. Svishchev, to whom you recommend "fix in the encyclopedia":
Georgy Petrovich Svishchev (1912 — 1999) - scientist and organizer of aviation science, creator of a number of works on aerodynamics and aircraft engines. Academician of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR / RAS. Twice Hero of Socialist Labor [1]. Laureate of the Lenin Prize.

[Dalailama]

So write down:

Above the practical ceiling, the speed at maximum thrust drops, so it is certainly not practical to rise above it.

and no other way.

Quote: Dooplet11

“Dynamic and static ceilings are completely different” - certainly.

Well, why? You had written:

Quote: Dooplet11

Usually, P.'s are taken at such a height at which the maximum vertical speed (for aircraft of various types) is 0,5-5 m / s. Due to the fact that supersonic aircraft can easily exceed P. p. Using the range of dynamic heights, this concept for them becomes conditional (see Dynamic ceiling).

With some joy, in addition to “conventionality,” they were still confused with a dynamic ceiling.
And what does he say about crests there, since you get education from such funny books?

[Dooplet11]

Well, why? You had written:
...
With some joy, in addition to “conventionality,” they were still confused with a dynamic ceiling.

Not with me. Academician Svishchev. But I agree with him. The concept of "Practical ceiling" for supersonic aircraft is becoming conditional. At the same time, it is clear that a dynamic, practical, and static ceiling are two different things. But I’m afraid that this logical construction is not clear to you, since you are operating in your own terms, and I am using the terms of academician Svishchev.

And what does he say about crests there, since you get education from such funny books?

So read if you are curious.

[Dalailama]

Quote: Dooplet11

The concept of "Practical ceiling" for supersonic aircraft becomes conditional

imagine - no, for them, too, there is such a height above which the maximum speed begins to fall.

[Dooplet11]

imagine - no, for them, too, there is such a height above which the maximum speed begins to fall.

I completely agree with the fact that there is a height above which the maximum speed of the aircraft begins to fall. Some aircraft even have two such heights.

[Dalailama]

take that limit of altitude below or above which a large range is reached.
note that the plane that was made with the purest aerodynamics does not have this.

[Dooplet11]

Which one? "there is no such"? What is this? Why not?

[Dalailama]

one that is marked with dots

[Dooplet11]

Why not? And what is “this” not?

[Dalailama]

because with an inverted engine and clean aerodynamics.

Quote: Dooplet11

Some aircraft even have two such heights.

[Dooplet11]

And why do others have two such heights?

[Dalailama]

because aerodynamics and problems with remote control are worse

[Dooplet11]

All clear. I thought this was due to the type of supercharger. Was wrong. Now I have Zen. :)

[Dalailama]

along with remote control besides its low power, with carburetors and high-altitude compensators,
in aerodynamics there was no large fairing of a coca screw and the ability to make a long thin tail all-metal monocoque beam.
Well, wing profiles, of course
should now be

[Dooplet11]

Yes. Right And what profile gives such an effect?

[Dooplet11]

So write down:
Above the practical ceiling, the speed at maximum thrust drops, so it is certainly not practical to rise above it.
and no other way.

Bf-109F4 did not fly above 6000? All reference books lie, indicating for him a practical ceiling of ~ 11000m?

[Dalailama]

This is a battle. To intercept it was necessary to climb for a long time above its practical ceiling.

[Dooplet11]

Yeahhhh.
All directories lie. Urgent need to make corrections. May I ask you to announce the entire list of aviation terms with your definitions for them?
PS. It is imperative to write to the respected Zug that, according to the Dalai Lama, the practical ceiling of the PV-189 is only 3000m, since the maximum speed was reached at this height. (http://www.airpages.ru/mn/fw189_01.shtml)

[Dalailama]

This was one of the reasons for the development of the Me-163, even he had a greater number of approaches to the target in one interception. Was the screw on the FW-189 not feathering?

[Dooplet11]

And I almost believed them !!!! A great teacher came and said. how to understand zen!

[Dalailama]

it's in terms of WWII
so that such gestures do not occur, for non-reactive ones it is now negotiated, for helicopters the type of h / v diagram is also negotiated.

[bubalik]

Dorzhiev Tserendisha Rapchakovich 1912g.

[Rusfaner]

Quote: Dooplet11

About aiming, indeed, one can doubt. A simple intersection of the trajectories of the aircraft and mines may have a certain probability. This does not detract from the merits of Sergeant Kalinin in the crash of the plane. In the real case, nobody will refuse to propaganda material. Hollywood as an example.

Twice the hero of the USSR, SD Lugansk, in the book "On deep turns" has an episode where his plane got into the confused track of a large-caliber projectile. The pilot flew out or left the car - I don’t remember, I read it fifty years ago.