Military Review

The appearance of American ATGM in Ukraine will change a lot

90
The appearance of American ATGM in Ukraine will change a lotThe Pentagon still keeps intriguing how exactly weapons plans to strengthen the armed forces of Ukraine, but in Kiev they hope that it is Javelin ATGM. There is an opinion that even in this case the alignment of forces in the Donbass will not change as much as the Ukrainians would like. But the translators of this opinion do not take into account the main thing - the economy of war.


Reports of the possible supply of "Javelins" APU still cause violent disputes. At the same time, on the eve of the General Staff of Ukraine came the news that the Americans were greedy and decided to send an old anti-tank missile system TOW instead of "Javelins".

Subsequently, a spokesman for the Pentagon said that “so far there are no plans to sell or transfer TOW to Ukraine”. Thus, the intrigue is preserved: perhaps Kiev will receive the coveted “Javelins”, perhaps something else, and maybe, nevertheless, TOW? After all, the word "bye" sounded.

The TOW ATGMs were developed in the 60s of the last century, and for a long time the TOW became the main US anti-tank weapon. It is worth emphasizing that the system turned out to be quite good and is still in service with about fifty countries of the world.

TOWs were used in all armed conflicts involving the United States, therefore it is not surprising that a great many modifications have multiplied. What exactly Ukraine will get is unknown. For example, in Iraq against the Saddam tanks The T-72 Marine Corps used the TOW-2A and TOW-2B. From this ATGM they shot at the sons of Hussein - Kuseyu and Udey. Nobody came to complain.

Today, the Western coalition is actively using TOW missiles in Afghanistan.

The main difference between TOW and the Javelins is that they are lower class. They need to be controlled and on the wire, and the complex is heavy - you can barely drag it. However, we must remember that the main weapon is a man. Skillfully it is possible to achieve your goals with a chopstick stick. Therefore, it is worth imagining a certain collective image of a certain anti-tank missile system, calling it “Javelin” for simplicity and seeing how the distribution of forces in the Donbass will change with its participation.

Among the observers, two opinions prevail. The first: “Javelins” is a complete nonsense, they are not terrible for Russian tanks. Second: the supply of the Javelins will lead to an escalation of tension and even to the second hot phase of the war. But in any case, the victory will be in favor of the DPR / LPR, since even in Syria, the vaunted Javelins could only light a Russian T-90 bulb. It is emphasized that the tank shoots at five kilometers, and the Javelins only two and a half, that is, the tank will “see” the enemy crews with anti-tank systems earlier and destroy it with the very first shot.

However, everything is not so simple.

Brutal lesson of Chechnya

In the first Chechen campaign, when Russian troops were only approaching Grozny, the militants of Dzhokhar Dudayev did not pose any real threat - this was the opinion of the Russian Armed Forces command. Indeed, on the outskirts of the city, the Russian army successfully and quickly suppressed individual centers of defense of terrorists.

Especially significant comedic cases. When tanks captured by militants fired from a large-caliber machine gun, the Chechen "tankers" jumped out of the cars in a panic, that is, they had no knowledge of the material part at all. And if a person thinks that a tank can be pierced with a machine gun, that says a lot about his military training in general.

Columns of Russian armored vehicles, famously entering Grozny, destroyed an average of a couple of hours each. Moreover, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers entered the city twice - and both times from the powerful columns there was only a pile of charred metal. What is the miscalculation commanders?

The first blunder is hats and bias towards the enemy. Until now, there is an idiotic opinion that the enemy at the sight of our tanks should scatter in panic. Should not.

The second critical mistake is that the tanks in the city do not fight; they are there purely auxiliary means. Yes, on the classic battlefield the tanks rush ahead, the infantry is running after them, the BMP covers the rear. However, in the city tank turns into a very vulnerable target. And any tanks turn into such a target.

In the city are the first assault infantry groups. Moving forward along parallel streets, they capture buildings to the left and to the right. Their flanks are in contact all the time, so that enemy units cannot penetrate through the battle formations. For the assault groups are single tanks that are guarded by infantry from all sides. These tanks support the assault groups with fire and suppress the indicated targets - guns or enemy machine-gun crews that prevent them from moving forward. And the rear they cover all the same infantry fighting vehicles with infantry.

This is a classic scheme for taking any city, the gold standard. For the “discovery” of this scheme, the Red Army paid tons of soldier’s blood. Suffice it to say that Georgiy Zhukov alone drove two tank armies to Berlin - and almost all of them were killed by the 14-16-year-old German boys from the civil militia.

Chechen militants looked at the world soberly and were well aware that hand-held anti-tank grenades or incendiary bottles like the Molotov cocktail would not do much to help armored vehicles, especially against tanks. Many of their commanders had experience of war in Afghanistan, served as officers in the Soviet army, therefore, they knew the "habits" of the army command and could calculate its actions a few steps ahead.

And, finally, the main thing: the Chechens stocked up with an inconceivable number of RPG-7 hand grenade launchers and rounds of them, both conventional and tandem-type. This decided the outcome of the battle. When the first Russian convoy entered the city in defiance of all regulations and instructions, the militants “classically” knocked out the first and last vehicles from the RPN-7, and then methodically shot the rest of the armored vehicles and personnel.

On that day, tanks could be anything - even T-90, even “Leopard-2”, even “Abrams” or “Merkava”. Machines could be protected by any armor, equipped with at least active, though passive protection in the appendage, in those conditions it did not play any role. Because 7 – 10 RPG-7 shots flew into every car simultaneously from different sides. And if the tank still miraculously moved, the next ten shots turned it into scrap - the militants did not spare the ammunition.

Grenades flew into ordinary trucks, and RPG-7 fired at single tank crews who tried to leave the car through a tower hatch. One of these shots struck the tanker through and did not detonate. The unfortunate burned, half leaning out of the hatch, leaning on the tower and on the grenade sticking out of his chest.

After the disgraceful defeat, when several army units at once simply ceased to exist, the military command turned on the wit. The corps of General Lev Rokhlin, marching "in the second echelon", did not go to Grozny with traveling columns. In order to lure the strike groups of the grenade launchers, he sent his soldiers into ambushes, and then imitated the entry of the next armored column of "fools".

Here pride played a cruel joke already on Dudayev’s. Since the rating of the Russian army among the militants did not rise above the baseboard, many rocket launchers fell on the Rohlinsky ploy. Hearing the clang of the caterpillars and the roar of the engines, numerous groups of Dudayevites, loaded with RPG-7 shots, began to flock to the road, and invariably were ambushed by Rokhlin from Volgograd, and then destroyed. This trick allowed the units of the Russian army not only to exterminate significant forces of anti-tank units of terrorists, but also to advance into the city.

Along the way, it turned out that a tank was too bulky a weapon. He constantly needs care, like a rich uncle. The most maneuverable infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers in street battles can bring significantly more benefits. So, virtuoso drivers from the Maikop brigade in their BMP dodged a dozen or more shots from a grenade launcher during the battle.

Thus, if you have a well-trained team of grenade throwers, a sufficient number of RPG-7 and ammunition to it, and an arrogant enemy moves tanks through, this at least balances the opposing forces.

Applied arithmetic

One shot from an RPG costs about 20 thousand rubles, the pipe itself is about 40 thousand. Suppose you need to spend ten shots on every tank to ensure it is destroyed - these are 200 thousand rubles.

At the same time, the old and simple T-72 is estimated at five million rubles. T-80 costs over one hundred million rubles. For T-90 will have to pay no less than 174 millions. Mass BMP-2 and BMP-3 stand like a new tank - about 170 millions. Even if we spend more than a dozen RPG-7 shots on the destruction of a tank or BMP, the proportions between the damage inflicted on the enemy and the cost of applying it speak for themselves.

Comparing RPG-7 and Javelins is not entirely correct. RPG-7 is a melee weapon, ambush weapon and firing round the corner in the back. The Javelins are a weapon of a classic battle, when two full-fledged armies clash face to face in the open field and begin to eliminate differences on the agrarian issue. But while we are discussing only the cost and mass use of weapons, such a comparison is quite appropriate.

So, the Javelin complex with six rockets in the set costs 91 a million rubles. One shot costs about six million rubles. The firing range is two thousand five hundred meters. What is important, the complex does not require support of the target after the shot, that is, it fired and forgot, and even better - ran away until you were remembered on the opposite side. The rocket itself finds the target, makes the so-called slide - takes off higher and from there falls on the tower of the enemy’s armored vehicles. The top of the tower, feed - all this is traditionally the weak points of any tank.

According to some reports, only in service with the army of the DPR costs about 800 tanks. Suppose all these machines are equipped with the most advanced protection technologies. But even if for each tank to spend five Javelin missiles (which in itself is excessive and excessive), it will pay back with interest. How many missiles will be needed in the end, you can find out only in a practical way, but arithmetic persists: the more such complexes will be in the anti-tank units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the better for them. Even if happiness is not in the Javelins themselves, it is in their number.

If the suppliers are not stingy and every soldier will shoot at least 20 – 30 missiles in the training manual, this is quite enough to multiply the LDNR armored forces to zero as soon as possible.

How can air supremacy be destroyed Aviation enemy, so you can achieve superiority on the battlefield, destroying all armored vehicles. At the same time, engaging in expensive tank battles is not necessary.

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https://vz.ru/society/2018/1/11/902957.html
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  1. Titsen
    Titsen 14 January 2018 06: 55 New
    +4
    And what will we put in response to the Javelins?
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 14 January 2018 07: 25 New
      48
      Muddy article. Two tank divisions of Zhukov were destroyed by German schoolchildren? belay Well, this is chaos of ignorance and stupidity.
      As for the American rocket-propelled grenade launchers, this will not affect the balance of power in any way, but it will untie Russia’s hands to set up a "Voyentorg" through South Ossetia and Abkhazia. So to whom it will be beneficial - the question is backfill. hi
      1. Vard
        Vard 14 January 2018 08: 14 New
        10
        Unfortunately, the author has an idea that he writes only according to the publications of the yellow press ... he didn’t serve in the army .. I have never really seen an RPG ... And the tank on the move at one time cost 30 euros ... Provided that Ukrainians overtake the line of contact themselves ..
        1. Reserve officer
          Reserve officer 14 January 2018 15: 25 New
          +9
          Something is wrong in the article. Juggling. It’s more like not an objective analysis of the current situation, but propaganda horror stories from the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
          It turns out that wars are won by those who possess miraculous weapons (Hitler's dream), and not by those who provide competent interaction between the armed forces. And then, where did the figure come from - 800 tanks? I have never heard anything like this anywhere.
          1. Hanokem
            Hanokem 15 January 2018 08: 31 New
            +4
            The article is sensible. Offset.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 15 January 2018 16: 39 New
              +2
              Quote: Hanokem
              The article is sensible. Offset.

              that is, the author has no idea either about the real hostilities or about Javelin (actually about what he writes), but "the article is sensible" laughing you tag # sarcasm just did not forget? laughing
            2. Cossack 471
              Cossack 471 15 January 2018 22: 34 New
              0
              What is sensible in the article? So ..water ..
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 19 January 2018 18: 42 New
                0
                Quote: Cossack 471
                What is sensible in the article? So ..water ..

                This is yes, since the author writes about city battles, but Donbass is not only Donetsk, and he kept silent about field battles.
          2. oldyjakob
            oldyjakob 15 January 2018 18: 47 New
            +1
            http://lostarmour.info/armour/
            377 trophies (from the Armed Forces to the Armed Forces) and another about 400 of their own = approximately 800 ...
      2. Brylevsky
        Brylevsky 14 January 2018 08: 28 New
        18
        Of course, the author “had enough” of the two tank armies destroyed (the 2nd and 3rd Guards tank armies lost 16% and 23% of combat vehicles, respectively), but the students from the Hitler Youth burned our tanks with Faustpatrons along with the Wehrmacht soldiers, - you won’t throw words out of a song. In general, the article is written well enough and leaves rich food for thought: how to protect our tanks from possible attacks of these ATGMs? For one tank burned down with the crew is irrevocable human losses and huge economic damage.
        1. bya965
          bya965 14 January 2018 08: 57 New
          12
          Quote: Brylevsky
          “enough” (2nd and 3rd Guards Tank Armies lost 16% and 23% of combat vehicles, respectively),

          I’ll even clarify according to Isaev (Georgy Zhukov: the King’s last argument) he took this information in the archives
          Extensive statistical material was also found in the "Report on the hostilities of the 2nd Guards. of the tank army as part of the 1st Belorussian Front to defeat the Berlin [445] enemy group and capture the city of Berlin. " During the operation, the army of S.I. Bogdanov irretrievably lost 209 combat vehicles. By types they were distributed as follows: 123 T-34, 53 M4A2 Sherman, 7 IS-2, 7 SU-122, 7 SU-100, 1 SU-85, 6 SU-76 {224}. During street battles in Berlin from April 22 to May 2, 1945, the 2nd Guards. the tank army irretrievably lost 52 T-34, 31 M4A2 Sherman, 4 IS-2, 4 ISU-122, 5 SU-100, 2 SU-85, 6 SU-76 {225}. Before the operation in the army, there were 305 T-34, 176 M4A2 Sherman, 32 IS-2, 41 ISU-122, 46 SU-100, 11 SU-85, 53 SU-76, a total of 667 units. Thus, the total irretrievable losses amounted to 31% of the number of tanks at the beginning of the operation, much lower than in the 1st Guards. tank army. Losses on the streets of the city amounted to 16% of the number at the beginning of the operation, that is, comparable to the army of M.E. Katukov. They received combat damage, but 92 vehicles could be repaired and put into operation. A total of 576 tanks were disabled, of which 259 units were damaged by artillery fire, from mines 25, from aircraft operations - 29, from faustpatrons - 106, stuck in transit - 22, burned out (apparently, this category included vehicles, whose damage did not allow us to unambiguously determine the cause of death) - 135. I note that in the “disabled” category there is a double score due to damaged vehicles, but again put into operation combat vehicles. Of the total number of disabled 289 T-34 tanks, 108 vehicles were lost from artillery fire, and 65 vehicles from faustpatrons.
          If we assume that losses on the streets of Berlin amounted to 20% (both irretrievable and recovered) losses, then the assault on the city itself cost the army [446] S. I. Bogdanov 10 T-34, 6 Shermanov and 1 IS-2 lost from the fire of the “Fausters”. Two dozen tanks - is it a reason for discussion, to introduce a tank army to the streets of Berlin or not to introduce? In the conditions when Volkssturmists remained in the city and the remnants of the formations defeated at the Zeelovsky heights, the introduction of tank formations into the city and the loss of two dozen tanks from hand-held anti-tank weapons are perfectly acceptable.
        2. saigon
          saigon 14 January 2018 09: 52 New
          +7
          And again cute artillery is forgotten, and the war in Donbass confirmed who the god of war is.
          It seems that a tank attack is tanks directing their defenses directly and alone in an open field and not firing.
          So forget about artillery, but all the other variety on the field
        3. Irbenwolf
          Irbenwolf 14 January 2018 14: 37 New
          +1
          how to protect our tanks from possible attacks of these anti-tank systems? For one tank burned down with the crew is irrevocable human losses and huge economic damage.

          Automate scrap.
          Reduce the number of people in the crew to 2 people and try to shove the armored capsule into existing tanks, even if this leads to a decrease in ammunition.

          “The Azov” with its T-Rex is “doing it” to the public .... They have 99% window dressing, but ... There is a rational grain in this.

          Modern tanks (equipment) are destroyed in the first weeks of the war, and then the “warehouse run” begins, and so, it makes sense to try to make old vehicles more efficient by introducing modern FCS and electronics.
      3. xetai9977
        xetai9977 14 January 2018 10: 12 New
        10
        "And what do we put in response to the Javelins?"
        "will untie Russia's hands"
        Russia has supplied and is supplying everything it can. And to put it mildly, not the miners are fighting against the Ukrainians, in their free time from the shift. This is an open secret for no one, including those who scribble "Ichtamnet."
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 14 January 2018 13: 03 New
          15
          Quote: xetai9977
          Russia has supplied and is supplying everything it can.

          If so, then the so-called. "Ukraine" would not exist anymore. And it’s a pity that they deliver little
          Quote: xetai9977
          And to put it mildly, not the miners are fighting against the Ukrainians, in their free time from the shift.

          On the “immortal regiment” in the DPR and LPR, see how many portraits of Donetsk people are carried, how many of them died, defending their homeland from ukrobandits.
        2. German Titov
          German Titov 14 January 2018 17: 15 New
          +8
          And to put it mildly, not the miners are fighting against the Ukrainians, in their free time from the shift.

          Are you serious? Small inclusions of volunteers from different countries. If we have on the form the flags of the Russian Federation and the DNI, does not mean the Armed Forces of Russia. Now there are much fewer people from other countries than in 2014. L / s equipment at the expense of "local resources". It’s not very easy to get into units. Miners (if it turns out) both worked and work.
          1. Victor_B
            Victor_B 15 January 2018 02: 45 New
            +2
            Miners (if it turns out) both worked and work.

            Miners dig up the latest weapons hidden there in old mines.
            So do not bother them dig. Accumulate as much as you need and the most modern.
            There, according to rumors, even the T-90 tanks are buried. In commodity quantities.
            Old abandoned mines - this is still the golden bottom of the arms!
        3. Pathos
          Pathos 17 January 2018 07: 33 New
          0
          they really are not there
      4. avt
        avt 14 January 2018 10: 32 New
        12
        Quote: siberalt
        Muddy article.

        Svidomo bully From the new sect, “Witnesses of the Javelins” from the Ruins. There used to be a Cossack on, “Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka,” in which the Vareniks themselves flew into their mouths, after dipping in sour cream. Now here in the brain, the Javelins "dissect."
        fired and forgot, and even better - ran away,
        And he ran away from Europ on a visa-free "BEFORE," he fired. Here's what to discuss ??? Here is such a hangover nonsense Svidomo?
        As a result, how many missiles will be needed can only be determined by practical means, but arithmetic persists: the more such complexes are in the anti-tank units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the better for them. Even if happiness is not in the Javelins themselves, it is in their quantity.
        If the suppliers are not stingy and every soldier will shoot at least 20 – 30 missiles in the training manual, this is quite enough to multiply the LDNR armored forces to zero as soon as possible.
        As you can achieve superiority in the air, destroying enemy aircraft, so you can achieve and superiority on the battlefield, destroying all armored vehicles. At the same time, it is not necessary to enter into expensive tank battles.
        about the prodigy in the clumsy hands of a cyborgiv ?? bully
        1. The comment was deleted.
      5. Fitter65
        Fitter65 14 January 2018 11: 38 New
        16
        Quote: siberalt
        Two tank divisions of Zhukov were destroyed by German schoolchildren? Well, this is chaos of ignorance and stupidity.

        The author generally wrote
        that only Georgy Zhukov drove two tank armies to Berlin - and almost all of them died there at the hands of 14-16-year-old German boys from civilian militias.

        Not even a division, but an ARMY !!! A “holy cause” for some authors on this site. Talking about one thing like kicking something from Soviet history, and it doesn’t matter if it’s true or false, the second incident is always more often in these deviations, but the main thing is to spit on the past of our country. One word grantoedy ...
      6. sabakina
        sabakina 14 January 2018 12: 44 New
        +7
        Oleg, it seems to me very much that the author is very deceitful. To this day, I have not heard such information. And yes, Oleg, the author burned not two divisions, but already two armies.
        It is enough to say that only George Zhukov drove two tank armies to Berlin - and almost all of them died there at the hands of 14-16-year-old German boys from civilian militias.
    2. bald
      bald 14 January 2018 08: 13 New
      +1
      Yes, at least - a vodka! They oh love her. But its branded apparatus - Pinocchio will weld.
      1. Brylevsky
        Brylevsky 14 January 2018 08: 36 New
        +1
        And what immediately is not Iskander or Topol-M? Officially, we don’t have our troops in the Donbass, the Buratino militias also don’t ... but then, suddenly - hop! - painted, you won’t erase ... Offer "Putin, bring in troops!". Just kidding, just kidding ... don’t be offended, please. It is quite possible that, if necessary, the militia will “purchase” the necessary weapons from some other “operators” other than the Russian Defense Ministry.
    3. 210ox
      210ox 14 January 2018 08: 31 New
      0
      Probably a concern ... I hope this will be only in the diplomatic channels. There are a lot of things that can be put into reality. There would be a desire for the Kremlin.
      Quote: Titsen
      And what will we put in response to the Javelins?
    4. krops777
      krops777 14 January 2018 08: 32 New
      +1
      And what will we put in response to the Javelins?


      Yes, they will not reach the front line, the United States has already shown a fig, they will give TOW and then it’s in question, they have established with drones in Syria (Russia has a trump card that can be presented), and even if they put it, the Ukrainians will quickly sell them to third countries.
    5. Oden280
      Oden280 14 January 2018 15: 50 New
      +2
      The author of the article is a collector of Internet statues. Especially pinned his or downloaded opinion about the first Chechen company.
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 14 January 2018 06: 56 New
    +3
    Again about the Javels ... They will not give the mericatos to their ukronatsiks, they will not. The capitalist first of all considers his benefit, so at best they’ll rebuild RPG-7. And LDNR will untie its hands to acquire weapons from some recognized countries, in any assortment and quantity. wink
  3. PSih2097
    PSih2097 14 January 2018 07: 18 New
    +2
    For ATO workers in Ukraine, even the delivery of nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles will not help, because their generals will immediately sell it ...
    1. Lelek
      Lelek 14 January 2018 08: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: PSih2097
      For ATO workers in Ukraine, even the supply of nuclear weapons and their delivery systems will not help

      hi
      Considering the fate of dill for the inhabitants of LDNR in the event of the seizure of these territories, of course, neither the American darts, nor the NATO secret supply of weapons and ammunition, nor the "international" gangs in the ATO will help VSUshniki. And Russia, in which case, will not be left aside, as Putin warned the Western guardians of Kiev.
      1. sd68
        sd68 17 January 2018 23: 34 New
        +1
        primitive and dumb fake
        most of the Donetsk region is controlled by Kiev.
        The income level of the population there is one of the highest in Ukraine.
        and no refugees from there are observed
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 14 January 2018 07: 47 New
    +9
    this is enough to multiply the LDNR armored forces by zero in the shortest possible time
    Powerfully said from a height of at least the army commander. Before multiplying by 0, you need to have a multiplier and trained operators. And in LDNR, non-stock sergeants are developing plans.
    1. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah 14 January 2018 08: 06 New
      +8
      That's for sure. In LDNR, they just sleep and see how their ukrovermaht will shoot from the Javelins. Unlike Germany and Chechnya, LDNR never attacks, but defends. And this is a completely different battle tactic. But APU will be this scrap metal. There is no difference with the Javelins or not. In addition, the Syrian experience of fighting in urban conditions in some part of the militia, volunteers is present.
      1. Lelek
        Lelek 14 January 2018 09: 06 New
        +5
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        Mar.Tirah

        hi
        However, the situation on the front end is heating up more and more every day. OSCE observers completely "pupated" and switched to spectator mode from sofas. Every day, dill draws more and more equipment and ammunition to the contact line (which flow from the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty). The air smells of gunpowder and blood.
        1. sd68
          sd68 17 January 2018 23: 39 New
          0
          a lie, of course.
          there was no rain and close, dry warm weather was until January 13
    2. alstr
      alstr 14 January 2018 12: 55 New
      +4
      Especially, if it is an honor that there are TOTAL 35 launchers, and 210 shots versus 800 (data from the article) armor of the LPR / DPR, then of course they will multiply.

      And the intelligence of the militias do not take into account. At the same time, we forget that portable ATGMs are weapons more than defense, because shoot from it on the run does not work - you have to equip the position (by the way, unlike RPG-7).

      So yes - scary, but not very))))
      1. kirgiz58
        kirgiz58 14 January 2018 20: 44 New
        +2
        Quote: alstr
        We forget that portable ATGMs are more defense weapons.

        Well, the author knows knows where the armored armies of LDNR will go on the offensive, absolutely without the support of motorized rifles. And surely the tankers will not have any intelligence at all, and all aiming and observation devices will be sealed with adhesive tape. laughing
      2. Astapan
        Astapan 15 January 2018 19: 06 New
        0
        The shots to the "Javelin" have been counted individually, like the tanks (exactly 800). Where does arithmetic come from?
        1. Astapan
          Astapan 15 January 2018 19: 08 New
          +1
          And the scotch tape will be silver - like you have used Hollywood films.
        2. alstr
          alstr 16 January 2018 09: 44 New
          0
          From articles and news. About the number of Javelins - the figure is accurate, but as for the tanks, I'm not sure. This is to the author of the article.
  5. bald
    bald 14 January 2018 08: 07 New
    +3
    Naive - ATGM is not a magic wand and will have little effect on them, so a trifle in some cases. Only the alternative will increase significantly. They want to see a second Syria - all this is shitty - after all, then wake up like children.
  6. unignm
    unignm 14 January 2018 08: 33 New
    +2
    what nonsense?
    1. vasya.pupkin
      vasya.pupkin 14 January 2018 13: 08 New
      +9
      Quote: unignm
      what nonsense?

      This is not just nonsense, but a well-thought-out provocative article by a “specialist” on the other side. Although he refers to some “facts” about Chechnya and others, he doesn’t bother with everything. Take at least the “fact” that the DPR has 800 tanks! Yes, the OSCE spies have long scoured and found nothing of the sort. And if you read the previous fakes of this specialist, then there ALWAYS /! / Defeated APU.
  7. izya top
    izya top 14 January 2018 08: 38 New
    0
    again, the mustache is gone, is the Donbass being drained? belay
    1. German Titov
      German Titov 14 January 2018 17: 26 New
      +3
      Do not believe me, since 2014, "everything is drained and drained." I somehow think with my brain and I agree with my colleagues that first the artwork will work. And somehow we are not in a hurry on the offensive - (a certain deterrent). "Wunderwaffle" is not a panacea for all ills in / in Ukraine.
  8. parusnik
    parusnik 14 January 2018 08: 40 New
    +1
    Dead, poultices will not help ...
    1. novel66
      novel66 15 January 2018 11: 14 New
      +3
      maybe they will look better (or smell less)
  9. Herculesic
    Herculesic 14 January 2018 08: 49 New
    +5
    Many have clearly developed "javelin fear," since the tantrum becomes literally massive! Here is the given author from that cohort about which they say that “the frightened crow is afraid of the bush!” True, the Yankees began to urgently develop ATGMs to replace them with a “spear, because a missile’s flight speed of 100 m / s does not guarantee 100 percent target destruction! The author ridiculed - spend 5 times each on a republic’s tank! And who will sell him so much? Does the author know the number of shots for this complex fired by the US industry? ATGM javelin can be effective against motionless, or low-speed, lightly armored targets! Only now, from this complex there is already a reliable protection! When I answer the question, ask the FSB, only if they solder 20 years for espionage, don’t be surprised! And in the end I will indicate that it is better to have an Israeli spike, because of the more advanced missile flight monitoring system using the closed channel.
    1. TOR2
      TOR2 14 January 2018 18: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: Herkulesich
      Many have clearly developed "javelin fear"

      And with this disease, “Javelino-Fetish” is quite comfortable. Why these phobias have developed to such an extent is not difficult to understand. As a rule, attention is paid to the protection of new equipment, while those that are in operation are traditionally bypassed. Not hoping for any decisions of the Ministry of Defense, many people are very concerned about one question - is it possible to create a counteraction system on their knees. In addition, the "Javelino Fetishists" do not get tired of repeating - there is also a highly intelligent IR matrix, there is an IR portrait of the target, and everyone must die.
      If we have an object (engine) emitting infrared waves of a certain length, then what prevents us from taking parameters from the object and, based on the received data, control another object that will emit rays at the same wavelength. This is the third course.

      In the upper left figure of the BMP without a "Floor lamp". On the rest, with the “Floor lamp” turned on. All that is needed to create such a thing in LDNR is.
      Quote: Herkulesich
      Only now, from this complex there is already reliable protection! To the question I will answer, ask the FSB, only if you solder 20 years for espionage, do not be surprised!

      If our defense industry created something more technological, then let it be a surprise.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 January 2018 19: 47 New
        +8
        Quote: TOR2
        Moreover, with this disease, “Javelino-Fetish” is quite comfortable.

        Just a good advertising company. Although in fact, "Javelin" among the complexes of the third generation is a very, very mediocre thing. So much so that even the faithful allies of the Poles, ready to buy used F-16s from the Americans, chose to buy Israeli Spikes. Like most other US allies in NATO.

        Quote: TOR2
        As a rule, attention is paid to the protection of new equipment, while those that are in operation are traditionally bypassed. Not hoping for any decisions of the Ministry of Defense, many people are very concerned about one question - is it possible to create a counteraction system on their knees.

        A counteraction system has existed since the First World War. Tough camouflage discipline plus artillery fire.
        1. novel66
          novel66 15 January 2018 11: 16 New
          +1
          and magnesium flash from ancient cameras
        2. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 15 January 2018 17: 02 New
          +1
          well, at least someone studied the subject of controversy hi
          Moreover, before starting the launch, the operator must hang out under fire for almost half a minute to direct the rocket. what is the meaning of the "shot and forgotten" Javlen so beloved by adepts of Javlen, it is not clear. there are also strong doubts about the ability of a javelin to hit moving targets. I did not find a single sight with shooting at a moving target. even commercials shooting at stationary objects.
          Quote: Spade
          So much so that even the faithful allies of the Poles, ready to buy used F-16s from the Americans, chose to buy Israeli Spikes.

          also a strange decision. is it worth buying an expensive complex with a range of 12 km if the range of fire contact on a European theater is 2-1.5 km? see the Poles issued a loan in Israel on more favorable terms wink
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 15 January 2018 17: 14 New
            0
            Quote: SanichSan
            is it worth buying an expensive complex with a range of 12 km if the range of fire contact on a European theater is 2-1.5 km?

            Quite the contrary, Spike is preferable in this case. It allows target capture (or retargeting) already in flight. That is, unlike Javelin, the Spike operator does not have to see the target before launch. It is enough to know what it is. For example, from an infantryman with a radio station who will tweet “near the landmark of the third tank”
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 15 January 2018 18: 00 New
              0
              Quote: Spade
              Quite the contrary, Spike is preferable in this case.

              doubtful. the case described by you is much faster and more efficient and most importantly much cheaper, artillery from a distance of up to 20 km can handle wink
              IMHO, the troops need easy-to-operate, cheap and quite powerful anti-tank missile systems. same Cornet or TOW. and so, the operator sniper cocked and consider the complex is not. some ordinary who was in the vicinity will no longer be able to use it. and again, in real combat, their range is 2-1.5km maximum, usually 700-500m. there are no places on the European theater of operations where the operator can aim at 12km.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 15 January 2018 18: 10 New
                0
                Quote: SanichSan
                doubtful. the case described by you is much faster and more efficient and most importantly much cheaper, artillery from a distance of up to 20 km can handle

                Artillery requires coordinates, and not an approximate area of ​​the target.
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 16 January 2018 17: 57 New
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  Artillery requires coordinates, and not an approximate area of ​​the target.

                  well don't exaggerate wink one way or another it needs to be pointed. Yes there is an option that allows you to direct after the start, but (!) Anyway to direct. and there is this option only on modifications to NLOS. this is by the way not a portable complex at all. rocket weight 70kg. range 25km. and now the question is, what difference does it make, an expensive Spike or a battery of howitzers provided with modern means of target designation? right! no. Well, apart from the fact that howitzer shooting is much cheaper wink

                  But what did the Poles buy there? MR or LR? this, respectively, with the best scenario, 2500 and 5500 battle range. but most likely 2500 and 4000. once again I remind you that these missiles do not have the guidance option after launch.
                  so what is the profit?
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 16 January 2018 18: 25 New
                    +1
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    and there is this option only on modifications to NLOS.

                    "This option" is not only on the platoon SR and on the mini-Spike. The rest is present.

                    Quote: SanichSan
                    But what did the Poles buy there? MR or LR?

                    Both that, and another, and still "ER" for helicopters are going to take.
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 17 January 2018 15: 01 New
                      0
                      Quote: Spade
                      "This option" is not only on the platoon SR and on the mini-Spike. The rest is present.

                      checked yes you are right hi

                      Quote: Spade
                      Both that, and another, and still "ER" for helicopters are going to take.

                      but then it is necessary to compare not with Cornet and Bassoon but with Hermes. yes, Germas does not have a guidance system after a shot, but for a rocket with a flight speed of 1000m \ s this is an absolutely pointless option wink for Spaysk with its 150m \ s yes, but not for Hermes with 500m \ s on the march.
                      I don’t know how Spike does, but in Germas the attack is made in the upper hemisphere.
  10. alavrin
    alavrin 14 January 2018 09: 51 New
    +5
    A lot of mistakes. The author, BMP-2, for example, is not worth 170 million, well, unless it is made of titanium. Etc, etc ...
    1. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 15 January 2018 09: 28 New
      +3
      They are not just made of titanium, but with gilding. And the ends of the armor plates are smeared with platinum. So as not to rust.
  11. Glory1974
    Glory1974 14 January 2018 10: 04 New
    +3
    At the end of the Second World War, Hitler also promised the Germans a miracle weapon that would change the course of the war. It did not grow together.
    In this case, I think that the most sophisticated ATGM will not be able to change the course of the war. The number of combat losses can increase and it is necessary to reckon with it.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. 1536
    1536 14 January 2018 13: 00 New
    +3
    A day off at a construction site and your wife did not come? In the absence of serious military analytics of local conflicts, do you have to retype babble?
    As they say, Game OVER ...
  14. Wolka
    Wolka 14 January 2018 13: 52 New
    +3
    The conclusion suggests itself: it is competent operational and tactical planning of any operations using armored vehicles, and the mass production of a mounted module for active protection of the upper hemisphere of a tank and installing it on tanks can be expensive, but all of this is not more expensive than money and human lives ...
  15. cariperpaint
    cariperpaint 14 January 2018 14: 00 New
    0
    Yes, as much as you can already ...
  16. _Jack_
    _Jack_ 14 January 2018 14: 15 New
    +1
    The article is clearly a minus. But you can’t argue with the main idea of ​​the article - our T-72s are completely defenseless against the 3rd generation ATGM, as, indeed, all other tanks. Even the Merkavas, with their much-praised KAZ, have a dead zone funnel on top, where rockets will fall remarkably.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 16 January 2018 10: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: _Jack_
      The article is clearly a minus. But you can’t argue with the main idea of ​​the article - our T-72s are completely defenseless against the 3rd generation ATGM, as, indeed, all other tanks.

      I think that the hysteria with the American anti-tank systems is more of a propaganda character than their real influence on the victory in the DNR-LNR war against the APU. There will be no tank battles according to the type of times of the Great Patriotic War, but everything will be decided by completely different methods of destruction, including those that will not allow entering the coverage area of ​​such complexes. I think that really everything will depend on what weapons Russia supplies these republics, and how those who are trusted will be trained, in particular the training of young officers and soldiers of these republics. All other arguments about such complexes are empty transfusion from empty to empty, because they do not decide the fate of the war, other laws enter into force there.
  17. seos
    seos 14 January 2018 16: 07 New
    0
    In the case of deliveries of the Javelins, the militias will have to upgrade the tanks under a new threat .... even the installation of a smoke screen can save the tank ....
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 15 January 2018 00: 54 New
      +1
      The smoke screen will immediately make it possible to detect the position of the equipment and cover it with artillery fire, and there it’s horseradish, he knows, maybe in the USA they have already developed “Javilin” with GOS IR + UV + TV.
  18. NF68
    NF68 14 January 2018 16: 32 New
    +1
    As a result, both American ATGMs and American RPGs will quickly appear in the LPR and DNR.
  19. cedar
    cedar 14 January 2018 17: 37 New
    +1
    But what about the “Lever” or what we still have in the echo guard of electronic warfare, you can no longer tap the javelins on their electronic brains ..?
  20. Vadim_2
    Vadim_2 14 January 2018 19: 19 New
    +1
    This is even difficult to read. Typical crafts from the "Look".
  21. Prisoner
    Prisoner 14 January 2018 21: 38 New
    +1
    Grafoman decided to promote the American anti-tank systems and even tried to humor him. Mutota!
  22. Altona
    Altona 14 January 2018 21: 44 New
    0
    Quote: siberalt
    As for the American rocket-propelled grenade launchers, this will not affect the balance of power in any way, but it will untie Russia’s hands to set up a "Voyentorg" through South Ossetia and Abkhazia. So to whom it will be beneficial - the question is backfill.

    ------------------------------------
    The author, of course, has thickened his paints with the “800 LDN tanks” (God forbid, there are about 300 units of more or less intelligible state of armored vehicles there). It also seems to me that the issue will be more political. As you rightly noted, this will untie the hands of not only Voentorg, but even Russia, to stop this hot spot using the direct military method.
  23. Northern warrior
    Northern warrior 14 January 2018 21: 52 New
    +1
    Russia needs an analogue of Javelin. You can praise the Cornet as much as you like, but the reality is somewhat different. For the average man, the Cornet is better than an American missile in all respects: armor penetration of 1200 mm per DZ versus 800 mm, firing range of 5500 m versus 2500 m, rocket speed of more than 200 m / s versus 100 m / s from a competitor. This is all true, but the devil is in the details: armor penetration of 800 mm is enough to defeat ANY tank in the world in the upper hemisphere, 2.5 km of range is quite enough in the vast majority of situations, and a high rocket speed is more needed to deal with helicopters. How are things going with the Russian Autonomy ATGM? If it is no worse than Javelin, it will become a bestseller in the arms market. Judging by the silence of the defenders, they faced insurmountable difficulties in creating the 3rd generation ATGM.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 15 January 2018 00: 58 New
      0
      The first and only difficulty is the cost of TGSN - which will cost more than a million rubles.
    2. Yarhann
      Yarhann 15 January 2018 01: 18 New
      +1
      The firing range of 2500 meters is sufficient for the ATGM calculation to be destroyed and guaranteed from a tank gun, all the charm of long-range shots that using them at a long distance of about 4 km - the calculation of the bird does not risk anything - not to be discovered all the more destroyed. and such a shortfall on the modern battlefield is no longer needed - for 2000-2500 any kind of birdies are mocked 30-40 years ago that cost a penny.
      ATGMs with GOS are there, but they are in the version that should be, that is, airborne - these are missiles from the HERMES complex - there various guidance systems are applicable, as well as the dual guidance system, both by means of on-board target designation by a laser and by means of an on-board GOS. But only there the missiles work much further and the warhead is larger and the probability of hitting armored vehicles is much greater, and the security of the calculation (counter) is also at altitude.
      ATGM type Jewelin in the Russian Federation will not be a dead end branch with major shortcomings that emerge from the on-board seeker.
      More or less decent ATGMs were made by Jews now. I mean those about Spike-LR that fire at 5500 m - there is nothing more than decent infantry in the world. javelin is a dinosaur among birds - and it’s stupid to compare it not only with a cornet, but even with a Ukrainian stingy.
  24. Yarhann
    Yarhann 15 January 2018 01: 08 New
    +2
    complete nonsense . even in the last hot phase, ATGMs on both sides were used to their full height and effectively sawed not only armored vehicles but also cargo trucks, roadblocks and other fortified places.
    the fact that the ATGM in the reserves of the ACU has become less is clear and understandable, the fact that they can make modern stugn type urns is also a fact - and in some important TTXs the stugna is superior to the javelin - this is a significantly longer firing range, the ability to fire at non-contrasting targets against an arming background (disguised tank, checkpoint, bunker, etc.).
    I think here the main move of all this short-term care is to get military technical assistance in much larger quantities than what came before - that's all. The Americans have large warehouses and all kinds of junk there are mountains and they never mind writing it off and steaming the Papuans.
    The only thing that stops the Americans in this deal is that these weapons can easily emerge in the Middle East and start firing at the mercenaries and at the Americans themselves - because if deliveries are made only under the supervision of the military representatives of the Pentagon and the CIA.
    And it will not change any alignment on the line of contact - there and now they are not fighting especially tanks.
  25. zoolu350
    zoolu350 15 January 2018 07: 48 New
    0
    About WWII, in general, it’s a complete mess, the tank armies of the USSR in Berlin destroyed so many Hitler youths that they still can’t count them.
  26. Prometey
    Prometey 15 January 2018 07: 53 New
    +1
    How can deliveries of these anti-tank systems change the course of the war in the Donbass? Who will Ukrainians shoot from these Javelins?
    And again the question - who saw the use of the Javelis in real combat, and not in production videos?
  27. garmonist
    garmonist 15 January 2018 10: 39 New
    0
    maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I remember, the javelins have a very serious drawback - they are induced by thermal radiation. Simply put, if you attach a trolley with smoldering coals to a tank, then at least 30 javelins let everyone get into the trolley)))
    1. Brylevsky
      Brylevsky 15 January 2018 11: 47 New
      +2
      You should at least read Wikipedia to finally understand how the GOS of this ATGM works ... Before a shot, the homing head remembers the thermal image of the target being attacked. Roughly speaking, her “photo” is in the infrared. It’s not possible to confuse her with such measures - the thermal signatures of the tank and the traps are completely different. It is not necessary to consider Americans fools, so that, in the end, they themselves will not be ... And that's what’s more important. This rocket does not need to be illuminated with a laser, therefore the target until the last moment will not be aware that it is an object of attack. We do not have on any of the tanks UV-radiation sensors characteristic of a torch of a working rocket engine. They have only KAZ "Afghanit", but where is it, is it "Afghanit"? And if tomorrow is war? So it turns out that the people have “ideas” on how to deceive the “Javelin” mass, but in fact, there is nothing.
      1. Sanichsan
        Sanichsan 15 January 2018 17: 17 New
        +1
        Yeah. just before the shot you need to hang around under fire for almost half a minute to:
        Quote: Brylevsky
        Before the shot, the homing head remembers the thermal image of the target being attacked.

        and what is better than a complex that needs to illuminate the target for 10 seconds or a TOW or unguided munition that does not need to highlight anything at all?
        Quote: Brylevsky
        It’s impossible to confuse her with such measures

        you are sure? probably for this the vaunted javelin does not shoot at moving objects? laughing
        do you yourself understand the principle? the head receives an IR photo of the target from a distance of 2500m. what do you think, with 2500 and with 500m at an angle of 45 degrees from above it will be the same image? or do you believe that a skynet capable of comparing two completely different images in a neural network head? or do you have your own option?
        or maybe all the same the head is stupidly pointing at a heat source and safely go into a heat trap? wink
        1. Brylevsky
          Brylevsky 15 January 2018 18: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: SanichSan
          and what is better than a complex that needs to highlight the target for 10 seconds

          The fact that irradiating the target with a laser will trigger the optoelectronic counteraction system. It will become obvious to tankers that they are being attacked by ATGMs. As for the TOW, its gunner-operator must keep the target in the sight of the sight, otherwise the rocket will go "nowhere." Yes, in this case there is no target illumination, but the gunner is “tied” to the launcher’s scope all the time during the attack. If they kill him, the rocket can go past the target. This "Javelin" and better. There are no unmasking signs, nor the need to constantly control the flight of the rocket.
          Quote: SanichSan
          probably this vaunted javelin does not shoot at moving
          objects?

          I do not know that.
          Quote: SanichSan
          do you yourself understand the principle? the head receives an IR photo of the target from a distance of 2500m. what do you think, with 2500 and with 500m at an angle of 45 degrees from above it will be the same image?

          Man, you are pretending to be, or really so ... Of course, the angle of the target will change as the rocket moves. How can I explain to you what’s dawned on you ... Here, a rocket flies from a television seeker. In her crosshairs is the goal. The difference is that in one case the visible part of the spectrum is used, in the other - infrared. This does not change the essence of the matter.
          Quote: SanichSan
          or do you believe that a skynet capable of comparing two completely different images in a neural network head?

          One of the Iskander variants is aimed at the target in this way: by comparing the image. Does something bother you? This time I ask you already: read, after all, the Wikipedia article and please spare me your inappropriate irony.

          Quote: SanichSan
          or maybe all the same, the head is bluntly pointing at a heat source and will safely go into a heat trap

          I would like the same for us to be happy. And for this you do not need to consider the enemy a fool, but yourself smart. You are the commander of the T-72 tank, driving along the road, conducting reconnaissance. How do you determine if a Javelin flew into your tank? When to interfere? Than?
  28. Nikolay Evdokimov
    Nikolay Evdokimov 15 January 2018 13: 02 New
    +2
    “If the supply chain isn’t stingy and every soldier fires at least 20-30 rockets in training, this is enough to multiply the LDNR armored forces by zero” © The author believes that the Russian army did not take into account the lessons of Chechnya? Then how did she manage to drive the "barmaley" in Syria? Amazing nearby ...
  29. JonnyT
    JonnyT 15 January 2018 16: 53 New
    +1
    well, a mustache)) Javelina is the savior of kakloreih. As soon as this complex appears among the Natsiks, the Buryats with horse-drawn aircraft and space divers of the Russian Federation immediately run away, and the inhabitants of Donetsk and Lugansk will present Pedro Chocolate on a gold tray the keys to the city))))

    The appearance of the Javelins will bring the end of the Nazis to Kiev. Minsk will not be there, and with impunity behind the Minsk formats, no one will let them burn all the LDNR equipment.

    Another wet dreams Svidomo
  30. VOENOBOZ
    VOENOBOZ 15 January 2018 22: 11 New
    0
    Thermal imagers are excellent fighters against infantry and all kinds of fighters with tanks.
  31. ccsr
    ccsr 16 January 2018 10: 33 New
    0
    Author: Alexey Overchuk writes:
    It is enough to say that only George Zhukov drove two tank armies to Berlin - and almost all of them died there at the hands of 14-16-year-old German boys from civilian militias.

    This is an absolute lie, because the author has no idea that the tanks of three armies participated in the battles, and the total losses of all tanks and self-propelled guns according to TsAMO were about 264 units, which is comparable to the number of armored vehicles of one division.
    As the saying goes, the author adheres to the rule - "trust me as an eyewitness" ...
  32. lukewarm
    lukewarm 16 January 2018 13: 10 New
    0
    An article with its military focus suffers from accounting one-sidedness: the price of a tank is the price of a weapon. The following describes briefly the experience of using RPG-7 (about 18, 26, and so on, the author forgot) and since Javelin is cooler than RPG, he concludes that LDNR tanks have no chance. Moreover, it is "profitable." And besides accounting, there is a tactic, and for the military it is a specialized science, as for an accountant accounting is unknown to the author. Well, the defeat of Zhukov in Berlin is a masterpiece of alternative history for the alternative gifted.
  33. Mustached Kok
    Mustached Kok 16 January 2018 23: 21 New
    0
    I have an idea why they need these anti-tank systems.
    In battles at the front, their usefulness is doubtful, the radius of action is too small. Yes, and 20 wrecked tanks will not help much (especially considering that they are unlikely to spend precious time EXACTLY on tanks, they can also shoot in BMPs and armored personnel carriers, and there are more of them than tanks). Only in two cases will they be useful.
    1) This is for ambushes in the rear of the leaders and military leaders of the LDNR. Due to an attack from the upper hemisphere, a hit will result in a guaranteed defeat. There are 15 such "ambushes" here that would be enough to disrupt the communication of management in the Republics. Well, of course, a psychological factor.
    2) For breakthroughs from boilers. You should not think that they have solid military and advisers from NATO, such a "cap-and-shoot" does not bring anything good, people also think of them. So, if some of the “armies” (in fact, there are no armies, more likely there will be divisions and regiments, no more) will fall into the boiler, then with the help of the Javelins they will be able to break through because of the environment in a place where there is less concentration of artillery and high concentration of armored vehicles. During a breakthrough, the distance between the soldiers is reduced and the work distance may be enough for a massive breakthrough.
    But both options will only work with the Javelins. And only with sufficient dexterity and, most importantly, the AVAILABILITY of these systems at the right time in the right place for them.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 17 January 2018 11: 18 New
      0
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      2) For breakthroughs from boilers.

      The issue is debatable, if only because the intelligence of the republics will be aware of the presence of these weapons, and therefore the commanders will try to prevent the loss of armored vehicles, pushing it to a distance of destruction. By the way, this technique is not so compact as to drag it on itself when breaking out of the boiler - they will throw it as soon as the cock pecks in the ass.
  34. zombirusrev
    zombirusrev 17 January 2018 17: 29 New
    0
    The author translates into the brain liberal myths about the Second World War and FW, it is pointless to refute the propaganda of ALL because the propagandist, as a student of Ph.D. J. Goebbels, will come up with other nonsense, and YOU will have to refute it for a long time. But you can’t leave nonsense without attention at all. According to this, we will be methodical. The first author did not provide any links to reliable sources, and without them there is no need to refute personal inventions. It is enough to confine ourselves to one phrase "Links to sources confirming your data on all episodes otherwise FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTopku!" (C)