"The incident is not directed against Russia": Azerbaijan admitted that it shot down a Russian helicopter

711
"The incident is not directed against Russia": Azerbaijan admitted that it shot down a Russian helicopter

Official Baku acknowledged that the Russian Mi-24 helicopter was shot down by the Azerbaijani side. This is stated in the statement of the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry.

The foreign ministry of the republic said that the helicopter was shot down by accident, Azerbaijan expresses its condolences, apologizes to the Russian side and is ready to pay compensation. At the same time, it is emphasized that this incident is in no way directed against Russia.



The Azerbaijani side apologizes to the Russian side in connection with this tragic incident, which is accidental and was not directed against the Russian side.

- said in a statement.

The Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry explained that the Russian helicopter flew in close proximity to the Azerbaijani-Armenian border during active hostilities in Nagorno-Karabakh.

The helicopter flight took place in the dark, at low altitude and outside the radar detection zone of air defense equipment. (...) Russian helicopters have not previously been seen in the area where the incident occurred

- said in a statement.

Earlier, the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed the loss of the Mi-24 helicopter, which accompanied the convoy of the 102nd Russian military base through the territory of Armenia in the airspace near the Armenian settlement of Yeraskh near the border of the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. The helicopter was shot down by MANPADS in the airspace of Armenia outside the combat zone.

As a result of the missile hit, the helicopter lost control and fell in a mountainous area on the territory of Armenia. Two crew members died, one was evacuated with moderate injuries to the home airfield

- said the official representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense, Major General Igor Konashenkov.

The footage is presented, the signature of which claims that they are the very same attack on the Russian rotorcraft:


If this video is indeed from the place of the strike on the Russian Mi-24, then the question arises: what is the reason for the fact that the cameraman pointed the lens in advance to where the rocket eventually hit the helicopter?

Baku does not specify what caused the Azerbaijani mistake. According to the latest information, "could have been mistaken for an Armenian Air Force helicopter."

Now it is worth waiting for the comments of the Russian Ministry of Defense and the Foreign Ministry on what happened - I mean Moscow's reaction to the recognition by the Azerbaijani side.
711 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +12
    9 November 2020 22: 26
    GO to any segment of Azerbaijani groups, even to VK. There is jubilation over the destruction of the Russian helicopter. And hickeys in the gums with Ukrainian bros!!!!!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  2. -8
    9 November 2020 22: 33
    It is an accident. During wars, anything happens. Our condolences to those who died.
  3. -6
    9 November 2020 22: 34
    Why do helicopters fly over the danger zone? Who gave them the command?
  4. +4
    9 November 2020 22: 34
    Well, at least they didn’t hide it here. They showed whose territory it was, who was the boss.
    Now wait for comments and responses from our military.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  5. +2
    9 November 2020 22: 35
    What's it like in that old movie?
    Errors must not be recognized. They must be washed off. Blood!
    And this has its own homespun truth. Money is just money. You can’t transfer everything into money.
  6. +5
    9 November 2020 22: 40
    We express our deep concern.... Lavrov... This is exactly what will happen
    1. 0
      9 November 2020 22: 45
      Quote: Garri
      We express our deep concern.... Lavrov... This is exactly what will happen

      me.. we need to react with restraint and thoughtfulness.. ahem not to give in to provocations.. times are difficult now and no one knows who benefits from all this.. mea ahem..
      Azerbaijan is our important partner, no one will deny that we need to strengthen good neighborly relations cough, cough
      First we need to understand my situation...
      And we have a separate conversation with those who are against friendship with Azerbaijan and do not want to deal with it. cough cough
  7. 0
    9 November 2020 22: 43
    It must be admitted that Azerbaijanis have texts. And steel ones at that!
    They shot down, immediately admitted, apologized and did not play dumb and tell tales for the Armenian DRG, which allegedly fired under their guise.
    But on the other hand, they showed that all sorts of hybrid attacks will not work.
    It's beautiful though.
    1. -3
      9 November 2020 23: 37
      Quote: dgonni
      It must be admitted that Azerbaijanis have texts. And steel ones at that!


      Yes, I admit it. Don't take away their courage. They are from a normal culture with good family traditions. In all seriousness, I respect them in some way.
      Therefore, recognize their bravery and destroy at least one base first.
      Well, citizens from figs from Russia
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. +2
    9 November 2020 22: 44
    99% is a prepared provocation, and it will not be of any use to Azerbaijanis or Turks.
  10. +4
    9 November 2020 22: 46
    Quote: MTN
    Quote: finish
    Thoughts from one TG analyst:

    Isn't the analyst Pegov from WarGonzo by chance?

    We look at the map and photo.




    If it is not strange for you that a Russian helicopter flies almost at the border with Azerbaijan at night (instead of flying northward next to the road) without notifying the Azerbaijani side, then I have no words.

    I have questions. Why does it fly at low altitudes on the border with Azerbaijan, and even into darkness? With MANPADS hit from the city of Sadarak in Nakhichevan. Who dictated this route? There are many questions. But in any case, the answers will not return life, for my part I can say I'm very sorry. My condolences to the family members of the pilots. But all the same there is a sediment in my soul that this is a provocation. Especially to drag Russia into the war.

    Why should I warn you when flying on “my territory”???? Even the Turks did not touch the drying, they waited for it to cross the border
  11. +8
    9 November 2020 22: 54
    Russia has once again been humiliated, now not by Türkiye, but by Azerbaijan.
    And they do it right. Since Russia allows itself to be humiliated with impunity, it would be a shame not to take advantage of it.
  12. +2
    9 November 2020 22: 56
    And somewhere in his office, friend Erdogan started dancing...
  13. +2
    9 November 2020 22: 57
    Well, the CSTO expressed its “oh, how can it be”:
    “The Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) expresses serious concern about the emergency in Armenia with the Russian Mi-24 helicopter, which was accidentally shot down by the Azerbaijani side. This was stated by the organization’s press secretary Vladimir Zainetdinov.”
  14. -1
    9 November 2020 22: 59
    More than half of the military personnel at the Russian military base in Gyumri are Armenians. Is this option not being considered? The Armenian servicemen of the Russian base set up all this. Here many asked technical questions - why did they fly in the wrong place, why didn’t they notify, why didn’t they do something purely military? Vervia of the Armenian setup explains everything logically. Azerbaijan does not need a conflict with Russia, but Armenia desperately needs to drag Russia into the war. I really want to know the names of the pilots.
  15. -1
    9 November 2020 23: 02
    Quote: Artavazdych
    They shot down like an Armenian helicopter (they themselves admitted to “apologies”!)
    That is - here's to you (Armenians) - wipe yourself off! And that’s where we saw your CSTO!
    I repeat, but this was not the first time, the Azerbaijanis made it clear to the Armenians at the very beginning that they would beat and shoot down everything that would threaten or fire from the territory of Armenia.

    Quote: Artavazdych
    And if Russia again gets involved, like with the Su-24 in Syria, like with the murder of the Russian ambassador in Turkey, like with the murders of Russian pilots, like with the downing of a passenger plane in Egypt (by Turkish fosterlings), then the sultan will already feel like the ruler of the world. Which, in fact, will almost correspond to reality if Russia wipes itself out...
    And Vovan is not a fool, and why do you consider our senior officers and diplomats to be fools?... Is it so fashionable?
    It wasn’t that a pot was broken, our helicopter was shot down, our officers were killed, but since Zakharova repeated and again outlined her position that we do not interfere in the conflict, it means that there are circumstances for this and there is information that you and I do not have. One of the crew survived, I think a lot of information, and I think that they will figure it out.
    Everything happened on time and very opportunely with our helicopter... everyone will be checked and rechecked.
    And in any case, Aliyev is pulling pressure on Pashinyan, without us he would not have started the war, and it is in our interests. Aliyev is also losing his people and the number is already in the thousands, but we have lost two officers, not civilians, and it is not yet clear how and why.
    I myself don’t believe in the coincidence that our helicopter ended up there at the moment when Pashinyan and company were almost completely defeated in Karabakh.

    Okay, the morning is wiser than the evening, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow we will know everything for sure. You can’t rush in this shithole, you need to double-check and check everything a hundred times, there are both Armenians and you, and this is another duet.
  16. +3
    9 November 2020 23: 02
    That’s not what we’re all talking about, comrades..
    Condolences to the families and friends of the deceased pilots! May we rest in peace to those who fulfilled their military duty to the end!!!
  17. 0
    9 November 2020 23: 03
    Already "answered": laughing
    “We express our serious concern about the incident and express our condolences to the families and friends of the deceased crew. We’ll wait for the results of the investigation into where the shot was fired from,” RIA Novosti quotes Zainetdinov’s statement.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. +1
    9 November 2020 23: 04
    If we put aside emotions, then the beneficiary of this “event” is Armenia. By the way, what prevented the Armenians from buying an Azerbaijani mug with MANPADS and handing him a flight map?
  20. +6
    9 November 2020 23: 05


    It’s clear what needs to be done and for a long time!
  21. -2
    9 November 2020 23: 05
    The 31st Brigade is sent to Nagorno-Karabakh
    1. -1
      9 November 2020 23: 25
      where did the firewood come from?
      1. -1
        9 November 2020 23: 32
        Ulyanovsk deputy Airat Gibatdinov announced the dispatch of Russian troops to Karabakh, we have smart deputies who reveal military secrets....
        1. -2
          9 November 2020 23: 38
          such a source in fact, I think there would have been a video of the training camp, the loading of equipment onto the railway platforms, or how they stomp to the airfield under their own power, so it’s too early to write about anything, but I wouldn’t want to go to war
  22. +1
    9 November 2020 23: 10
    But in fact, if I were our top officials, I would introduce a no-fly zone over Karabakh, transfer S-400s and aircraft to Gyumri, so that no one’s thoughts would be disturbed. Well, at the same time he would introduce a forced truce under the threat of destruction of the unit who violates it. And then I would talk about compensation from one side, and maybe from the other. IMHO.
    You can all throw guano.
  23. +2
    9 November 2020 23: 11
    Quote: Vadim237
    Well, yes, he set it up - and Azerbaijan took over.

    Where should Azerbaijan go? It was his anti-aircraft gunners who fired, in any case they are to blame. So they did the right thing by offering apologies and condolences in a timely manner, without turning around, in their position it was better to come and put their heads on the chopping block, so there was a chance than to wait until they brought them in bracelets, there were no options.
    1. -2
      9 November 2020 23: 15
      Today in Armenia at about 18:30 local time near the village of Yeraskh a Russian attack helicopter Mi-24 (unofficially called "crocodile") was shot down from a MANPADS (portable anti-aircraft missile system). "Twenty-four" accompanied a convoy of Russian military (according to our source - Russian paratroopers).
      According to our information, the Russians were heading to Goris (a city located 170 km from Yeraskh, on the very border with Artsakh). The Russians arrived in Goris over the weekend. Their exact number is not known, their tasks are not obvious (our source in the Artsakh Defense Ministry covertly called them "long-awaited peacekeepers"), but the Russian "turntable" was accompanying just another column of Russians when it was shot down.
      By the way, from Friday November 6, Goris was “closed” to the press - groups of Russian journalists leaving Stepanakert no longer went through Goris, but along a bypass dirt road passing in the area of ​​Lake Sevan.
      Of course, the presence of the Russians could not have been a surprise to the Turkish and Azerbaijani intelligence services, and, quite likely, they “got their ears off.”
      The Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry said today that the incident occurred “in light of the tense situation in the region and increased combat readiness in connection with possible provocations by the Armenian side.”
      According to our data, in the near future we should expect the arrival of an additional contingent of Russian peacekeepers in Armenia in the interests of forcing peace on all parties involved in the conflict.
    2. -1
      9 November 2020 23: 17
      There's a war going on, as long as the rear is covered!
  24. -1
    9 November 2020 23: 18
    Quote: well
    Exactly. Let's go to the morning once again.

    Let's all boycott pomegranate juice!!!!
  25. -2
    9 November 2020 23: 21
    Armenian provocation. 80% of employees at the 102nd base are Armenians.
    2 states are at war. Yesterday they didn’t shoot on this section of the border, but today they can, the military is at the highest level of readiness. And then it turns out that a helicopter is flying with Armenian provocateurs serving at the 102nd base at a low altitude so that the air defense does not detect it, 500 meters from the border. Of course they will shoot you down, where are the base authorities looking? And one more thing: the 102nd base in Gyumri, hundreds of kilometers from the border with Nakhichevan (where it happened), it is immediately clear that the Armenian provocation
    1. -3
      9 November 2020 23: 34
      come up with something better, Russian pilots, 102 is moving troops closer to Karabakh, it was a “hello” from Turkey, you bastards!
  26. -1
    9 November 2020 23: 24
    Quote: Tank Hard
    Quote: Moonsund
    For those who are not very smart and thoughtful: this is not a call to bomb Baku, there should be punishment, sanctions, the expulsion of a significant number of representatives from Moscow, a blow to their business, something like that. Civilized and cruel.

    So hi

    Armenia has still not extradited the killer of Russian special forces soldier Belyankin. The Armenians staged a series of explosions in Moscow in 77. An Armenian carried out an explosion at Orly airport in 83. Armenian legions of the fascist Vermath during the Second World War. Was there any punishment for the Armenians?
    1. -2
      9 November 2020 23: 37
      old propaganda change)
  27. -2
    9 November 2020 23: 24
    Quote: Dimon71
    GO to any segment of Azerbaijani groups, even to VK. There is jubilation over the destruction of the Russian helicopter. And hickeys in the gums with Ukrainian bros!!!!!

    Armenian lies. And the pilots were Armenians, so another Armenian provocation
    1. -1
      9 November 2020 23: 35
      be-be-be from you Mahmud) Russian pilots! You are responsible for the downed helicopter!
  28. +1
    9 November 2020 23: 28
    Hey, loyal Zaputinites and fiery United Russia members.
    Well, I’m reading your comments again about “let’s not let ourselves be bullied!”
    I don't even want to comment on you. Disgusting. “Putin raised the greatness of Russia”...Damn

    The only correct option in this story is to destroy the military facility on the territory of Azerbaijan and say “apology accepted, no compensation needed”
    1. 0
      9 November 2020 23: 33
      but they can’t, they can only express puzzlement and concern
    2. -5
      9 November 2020 23: 53
      we are ready
      and you try to do something with your crap...
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 09: 46
        I'm sick of it, go sell tomatoes, otherwise they'll steal you.
  29. The comment was deleted.
  30. -1
    9 November 2020 23: 35
    Azerbaijan must pay for this meanness with blood!!!
  31. -2
    9 November 2020 23: 35
    Quote: tralflot1832
    Those who see in this tragic incident a threat to the statehood of Russia or Armenia can show their belligerence in Nagorno-Karabakh


    I really like this verbiage of the faithful Zaputinites!
    It turns out that I pay taxes and fight and make decisions for those who should make these decisions?
    What then is this “team” sitting in the Kremlin for? In order to build dachas in foreign countries under patriotic slogans?
  32. 0
    9 November 2020 23: 39
    Will tangerines be banned?
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. +1
    9 November 2020 23: 54
    The Supreme Commander does not care about the lives of the military. Old man. He plays chess.
  35. 0
    9 November 2020 23: 56
    I was on a business trip. Returned to my favorite city near Moscow. In “Pyaterochka” I noticed an excessive population of Armenian women with children who do not speak Russian. What, already the Exodus?
  36. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 09
    Once again we mumble, “Please be understanding” (C). Su-24 is not enough.
  37. -1
    10 November 2020 00: 10
    Quote: nobody75
    Yes, you are not sorry! Tears are crocodile ...

    Are you itching, professional provocateur?
  38. +2
    10 November 2020 00: 14
    A joint statement by the presidents of Russia and Azerbaijan, as well as a joint statement by the president of Russia and the prime minister of Armenia, is expected in the coming hours.
    The warring parties, through the mediation of Russia, reached an agreement on a systemic truce. The agreement will pave the way for the preparation of a Grand Political Agreement.
    According to information, Armenia undertakes to withdraw the occupied troops from the Kelbajar, Lachin and Aghdam regions. In addition, Azerbaijan retains combat positions won during active military operations, including the city of Shusha.
    Azerbaijan and Armenia have expressed agreement to the deployment of Russian peacekeeping forces in Nagorno-Karabakh. According to a preliminary agreement, Russian troops will act as a demarcation cordon between the opposing forces. Along with this, the parties agreed on the active participation of the Turkish government in the final settlement of the Karabakh problem.
    The final status of Nagorno-Karabakh within the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan will be determined during further negotiations.
    Early in the morning of November 10, the defense ministers of Azerbaijan and Armenia will arrive in Moscow to discuss the details of the systemic ceasefire regime.
  39. 0
    10 November 2020 00: 15
    a tough forceful reaction is needed if it does not happen. They will start wiping their feet on Russia...
  40. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 25
    Quote: Counter Strike
    Nakhichevan is generally a completely different front, on the opposite side of Nagorno-Karabakh, through Armenia. There is no fighting there. How could a helicopter flying along the border of Armenia and Nakhichevan have come under fire?
    If this shot were from Azerbaijan, relatively speaking continental, where direct hostilities are being conducted, then an accident could have taken place. But this is in a completely different place, and it smacks of the same handwriting as the Russian plane was once shot down by the Turks. Namely, a provocation to drag Russia into the conflict.

    Armenians shell Nakhichevan.
  41. -1
    10 November 2020 00: 29
    Well, let’s stick our heads in the sand again and don’t take care of our people. you would have already fucked up and stopped talking
  42. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 31
    Quote: Gofman
    Quote: Ragnarok
    can you imagine such a situation with the Americans or the Chinese?

    Libya, 2012 - brutal murder of the American ambassador and embassy staff. Belgrade, 1999 - US airstrike against the Chinese embassy. Iraq, January 2020 - Iranian missile attack on a US military base. Imagine.
    With flags - absolutely nothing: you did not know about these events at all, and if you knew and still remember about them, then you did not associate them with the state flag.

    Add to this the downing of a passenger plane by Armenians of an Iranian Air Force C-130 military transport aircraft with the families of Iranian diplomats on board over Nagorno-Karabakh, 32 people were killed.
  43. +5
    10 November 2020 00: 31
    MTN (KGB school)
    Yesterday, 21: 56
    "Look at the map and photograph."
    There is a place on the Internet where the turntable fell. This is the territory of Armenia, not Nakhichevan, as shown on the map. I know these places personally. The border along Nakhichevan is heavily mined. That's count. people and equipment, which is visible in the video, will not travel even 100 meters.
    Conclusion. The map is fake. MTN disinformer.
  44. +1
    10 November 2020 00: 33
    In the video, if you look closely, you can see how the helicopter flies at night with beacons, as this could have been accidental. Kozlov who did this will be sent to Russia for trial!!! Two lives in two
  45. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 35
    Quote: finish
    Thoughts from one TG analyst:
    The downing of the Mi-24 was not an accidental event. They prepared it, studied the activities of our military at the Gyumri base, the flight schedule of aviation, they knew about the military convoy. The calculation of MANPADS took an advantageous position (practically hitting at close range), and the spectators from Nakhichevan took their places in the stalls.
    Let me remind you that Azerbaijan is not a NATO member. Therefore, the answer must be tough. It was different with Turkey, a NATO member, and it shouldn't be like that with Azerbaijan.
    Russia's response to the planned and orchestrated provocation of Azerbaijan (not without the participation of Turkey and its patrons, the Anglo-Saxons) - must be tough and inevitable.
    Rubicon passed!

    Another Armenian gloating reaction) You Armenians are used to calling yourself Russians, but you admitted that you are an Armenian. Are you pretending to be Russian again? Oh, you are a malicious and vile troll)
  46. +1
    10 November 2020 00: 37
    In the video you can clearly hear the Barmaley Allah Akbar. It was most likely the Turks.
  47. The comment was deleted.
  48. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 40
    Quote: Keyser Soze
    In the EU and in many BV countries, they will not cry if an inland sea and several strait zones in addition to the existing ones appear on the territory, because Erdogan got many ...


    Blah blah ... but the fact is that all and sundry can kick you and then he will have nothing. You also need to trade in gas and oil .... take care and mustache.

    If at night you take down the base from which the vassals of the Yedik shot, in the morning I will personally apologize, sprinkle ashes on my head, for these words. Until then, you are anxious ally and your CSTO is bullshit.

    Another putrid post from an Armenian pretending to be a Bulgarian. Rottenness and gloating just creep out of you. I suppose you've arranged a feast, are you celebrating?
  49. +1
    10 November 2020 00: 41
    EMERGENCY MESSAGE
    Information Department 01:07

    As haqqin.az learned from informed diplomatic sources, a joint statement by the presidents of Russia and Azerbaijan, as well as a joint statement by the president of Russia and the prime minister of Armenia, is expected in the coming hours.

    The warring parties, through the mediation of Russia, reached an agreement on a systemic truce. The agreement will pave the way for the preparation of a Grand Political Agreement.

    According to haqqin.az, Armenia undertakes to withdraw the occupied troops from the Kelbajar, Lachin and Agdam regions. In addition, Azerbaijan retains combat positions won during active military operations, including the city of Shusha.

    Azerbaijan and Armenia have expressed agreement to the deployment of Russian peacekeeping forces in Nagorno-Karabakh. According to a preliminary agreement, Russian troops will act as a demarcation cordon between the opposing forces. Along with this, the parties agreed on the active participation of the Turkish government in the final settlement of the Karabakh problem.

    The final status of Nagorno-Karabakh within the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan will be determined during further negotiations.

    Early in the morning of November 10, the defense ministers of Azerbaijan and Armenia will arrive in Moscow to discuss the details of the systemic ceasefire regime.
    1. -2
      10 November 2020 00: 48
      One to one Idlib scenario.
    2. -1
      10 November 2020 00: 57
      Idlib scenario: joint patrolling of Nagorno-Karabakh by Russian peacekeepers with Turkish ones, a corridor to Nakhichevan for the Nazis. This is in the best case, in the real: goodbye to Karabakh for the fraternal Armenian people. Not at all sorry. “You, my friends, are too greedy in the banking sector (robbing the impoverished Russian people) and in the asphalt sector, and that’s why you cannot protect your lands.” Let the azers take everything back.
      Emotionally... Really. sad Let the West help you!
  50. -2
    10 November 2020 00: 44
    Soon everyone will be knocking us down, but even if someone feels sorry for us later, in theory this shouldn’t change the essence. We don't shoot down. So you have to bomb and then say that it’s also a pity and that we apologize and that this is not directed against Azerbaijan, it just happened that way!
    1. 0
      10 November 2020 20: 16
      and all sorts of nonsense
  51. -3
    10 November 2020 00: 45
    Night. From Gyumri, our base, 200 km. to the south, along the Turkish-Azerbaijani border, a Russian column is walking along the highway. At night, it is covered by an MI-24 helicopter at an extremely low altitude, hiding from radar 400 meters from the borders, its blades rattling throughout the entire area...
    - What was the Russian Armed Forces column doing there?
    - What kind of cover and what was required from the crew, albeit a night version of the MI, on this “campaign”?
    - The Base command (200 km from the incident) and the National Defense Control Center understood that this area was fully monitored by Turkish radar and monitored by Azerbaijani air defense COMPLETELY, or was it hoped for for the purpose of provocation?
  52. -1
    10 November 2020 00: 45
    [quote=Counter Strike]If you look at the map where the helicopter was shot down (marked with an arrow), and look at where Karabakh and the fighting are, it becomes clear that this was a provocation against the Russian Federation. Direct, like aggression against a Russian helicopter, or indirect, like aggression against Armenia, a member of the CSTO.
    [/ quote
    But how?) Not otherwise)) Armenian logic. Have you already set the table and are you raising a toast to great Armenia?
  53. -1
    10 November 2020 00: 46
    Quote: Dimon71
    GO to any segment of Azerbaijani groups, even to VK. There is jubilation over the destruction of the Russian helicopter. And hickeys in the gums with Ukrainian bros!!!!!

    Don't talk Armenian nonsense here. As always, opportunists are ready to write any meanness under a Russian name.
  54. +2
    10 November 2020 00: 46
    A few minutes ago, the son-in-law of ex-President Serzh Sargsyan, former Armenian Ambassador to the Vatican Mikael Minasyan said that Prime Minister of Armenia Nikol Pashinyan, betraying the interests of the Armenian people, signed an act of surrender and defeat of Armenia in the Karabakh war.

    “I signed...we didn’t have time, in secret from everyone, I deceived.” Former Armenian Ambassador to the Vatican Mikael Minasyan wrote about this on his Facebook page.

    “I signed...we didn’t have time, secretly from everyone, I deceived. A deranged miscarriage stole our past, desecrated our present, deprived thousands of parents of their children, destroyed our victory, devoured our future... Signed... Damn you, Nikol and your flock,” he wrote.
  55. 0
    10 November 2020 00: 47
    It’s a shame that the Russian Foreign Ministry responded!!!! The enemies of the Russian Federation are sitting inside, that’s what’s clear!
  56. -1
    10 November 2020 00: 49
    Peskov will probably purr with concern, dammit.
  57. +1
    10 November 2020 00: 59
    What is the reason for the camera? The author doesn’t understand that the filming is carried out by the calculation itself? Somehow I haven’t seen any proposals to bomb Iran for the downing of a Boeing passenger plane. Or Syria for the downed Russian aircraft... Or the Azerbaijanis, like with the Malaysian Boeing, should have blamed others. Now the Armenians have activated their lures in order to raise “popular anger” among the distant ones, of whom there are many, and who think that we will hit, but nothing will happen to us in return. We will watch winning videos on the news and write hateful posts. Take care of your youth, old losers. There, a whole generation is being destroyed on both sides, so you still want to send your own people there
  58. -3
    10 November 2020 01: 03
    shame on our Russian Foreign Ministry and authorities!!!!!!!!!!! We appreciate the fact that Baku immediately admitted its guilt!!!!!!
  59. The comment was deleted.
  60. 0
    10 November 2020 01: 07
    “Dear compatriots, sisters and brothers. I personally made a very difficult decision for myself and all of us. (...) I made this decision as a result of a deep analysis of the military situation and the gratitude of the people who are best in control of the situation,” he wrote.

    Pashinyan called the text of the statement “incredibly painful” for him personally and for all Armenians.

    Well, that's what you'd expect! The Armenians held their fate in their hands until they relied on the West. But the issues were resolved in Moscow and Baku.
  61. +2
    10 November 2020 01: 07
    There won’t be any divergence:
    "In connection with the statement of the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry about the tragic incident as a result of which a Russian military Mi-24 helicopter was shot down:

    We appreciate the fact that Baku immediately admitted its guilt. We also note the assurances given to us by the Azerbaijani side that a prompt investigation into this incident will be carried out and those responsible will be punished."
    https://www.facebook.com/MIDRussia/
  62. 0
    10 November 2020 01: 12
    Russia, after the downing of the helicopter, delivered an ultimatum to Baku, but with the recognition of Azerbaijan’s victory. Pashinyan admitted defeat. Let him shout: glory to the Armenian diaspora! It's not clear what the truth is...
    1. +3
      10 November 2020 01: 20
      Pashinyan is now a traitor to the Motherland. For Armenians... sad
  63. -1
    10 November 2020 01: 14
    Are the Russian military really stupid? What else is needed? .....to install a system for electronic warfare, for example, Vitebsk, Rychag-AV,.. to protect their helicopters. Incredible conservatism and slowness harm the reputation of the Russian army
    1. -3
      10 November 2020 01: 36
      First of all, it's expensive! Secondly, was it necessary? Was the command’s goal to protect the helicopter? Or was a night “trip” along the border at night (400-500 m) without identification signs planned? Against the backdrop of war. After all, the MANPADS, "Strela", for example, turned on the cooler for the IR GNS, then either you shoot, or you scrap the thing for 100 thousand bucks. For a nervous Azerbaijani operator, it is extremely expensive to scrap an unused MANPADS. And so he ended up in a pepelats worth several million bucks. It doesn’t matter whose, the main thing is not yours. And the fact that our command reported: that the Turkish-Azerbaijani command finally acted and took the bait, finally shot down our “revolver” over the territory of independent Armenia - this is unambiguous. Now they are signing a truce, or rather the surrender of Artsakh, but on our terms.
  64. -3
    10 November 2020 01: 47
    You don’t have to be an armchair specialist to understand that the MI-24 crew is being exposed to MANPADS (based on video data). This is exactly what he does! I don’t know what kind of insurance they promised the pilots. But knowing that the positions of the Azerbaijani army, armed with MANPADS, hang over the Yerevan-Yeraskh highway, no one in their right mind would give the order to fly over these heights, especially MI-24 helicopters, which can be detected by ear at night.
    1. -2
      10 November 2020 02: 32
      What are you minus? “The Vertushka” did just that: it flew back and forth along Azerbaijani positions at a distance of 500 meters. If I had a MANPADS, and the enemy was opposite, I would gasp! And you?
  65. The comment was deleted.
  66. +2
    10 November 2020 02: 01
    Quote: Old Tankman
    first

    Not the first!
    The first was in Putilkovo, when a Russian special forces soldier
    who passed through the Syriaskub company was vilely killed by the inhabitants of the country, 60% of the population of which, out of great love for their Motherland, “screwed” to Russia.
    And our “valiant” government, for the sake of a flawed geopolitics, did not even ask for the extradition of one of the murderers who fled to Armenia.
    How much can you sell the lives of Russian people in exchange for “partnership”?
    Both those (Armenian) and others (Azerbaijani) settled down well in Russia.
    They have influential oligarchs who protect the interests of national diasporas. They receive orders and the favor of our leader.
    What about the Russians? We can't even defend our rights! There is no one to petition the Tsar-Father for us! Should Avens, Abramovichs, Friedmans defend our rights?
    Yeah, they ran away.
  67. 0
    10 November 2020 02: 04
    Stop breaking spears. Our people from Ulyanovsk are already there, with the status of peacekeepers with the consent of both sides. And they took off even before the helicopter story.
    Armenia is withdrawing troops from Azerbaijan. The war is over, and I congratulate everyone.

    What to do now on this remote location? laughing
  68. +3
    10 November 2020 02: 05
    Quote: AĞGURD
    we are ready
    why on earth should we be afraid of someone or were we afraid of someone else ..? do you follow the speech

    Are you swollen or dandruff?
  69. +1
    10 November 2020 02: 07
    Quote: wmn5500
    There won’t be any divergence:

    Alas, everything is just beginning
    The text of the statement by Aliyev, Pashinyan and Putin on ending the war in Karabakh has been published.
    Russian President Vladimir Putin, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan signed an agreement to end the war in Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia will send 1960 peacekeepers to the region, and Armenia will withdraw its troops.

    Document text -
    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4565588
  70. 0
    10 November 2020 02: 08
    Perhaps this incident is aimed at preserving part of the territory of NK for the Armenians? So that the Azerbaijanis are more negotiable.
  71. -1
    10 November 2020 02: 15
    My respect to the Azerijan people, for not starting to lean on the bullshit, but honestly, calmly admitting their guilt! I feel sorry for the guys who died for no reason! Condolences to family and friends! Peace to this planet!
  72. -1
    10 November 2020 02: 22
    1. A complete ceasefire and all military operations in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict zone are announced from 00:00 Moscow time on November 10, 2020. The Republic of Azerbaijan
    and the Republic of Armenia, hereinafter referred to as the Parties, stand on their positions.
    2. The Agdam region and the territories held by the Armenian Party in the Gazakh region of the Republic of Azerbaijan shall be returned to the Azerbaijan Party until November 20, 2020.
    3. Along the line of contact in Nagorno-Karabakh and along the Lachin corridor, a peacekeeping contingent of the Russian Federation is deployed in the amount of 1960 servicemen with small arms, 90 armored personnel carriers, 380 units of automobile and special equipment.
    4. The peacekeeping contingent of the Russian Federation is being deployed in parallel with the withdrawal of the Armenian armed forces. The duration of the stay of the peacekeeping contingent of the Russian Federation is 5 years with automatic extension for the next 5-year periods, if none of the Parties declares 6 months before the expiration of the period of intention to terminate the application of this provision.
    5. In order to increase the effectiveness of control over the implementation of the agreements by the Parties to the conflict, a peacekeeping center is being deployed to control the ceasefire.
    6. The Republic of Armenia returns the Kelbajar region to the Republic of Azerbaijan until November 15, 2020, and the Lachin region until December 1, 2020, while reserving the Lachin corridor (5 km wide), which will ensure the connection of Nagorno-Karabakh with Armenia and at the same time not will affect the city of Shusha.
    By agreement of the Parties, in the next three years, a plan for the construction of a new traffic route along the Lachin corridor, providing communication between Stepanakert and Armenia, with the subsequent redeployment of the Russian peacekeeping contingent to protect this route will be determined.
    The Republic of Azerbaijan guarantees the safety of traffic along the Lachin corridor of citizens, vehicles and goods in both directions.
    7. Internally displaced persons and refugees return to the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh and adjacent areas under the control of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.
    8. The exchange of prisoners of war and other detainees and bodies of the dead is carried out.
    9. All economic and transport links in the region are unblocked. The Republic of Armenia provides transport links between the western regions of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic in order to organize the unimpeded movement of citizens, vehicles and goods in both directions. Transport control is exercised by the bodies of the Border Service of the FSB of Russia.

    By agreement of the Parties, the construction of new transport communications connecting the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic with the western regions of Azerbaijan will be ensured."

    The war is over, Aliyev is beautiful. Putin is great.
    1. 0
      10 November 2020 02: 27
      Yes, rather, they froze the conflict for 5 years. Some will continue to suffer in the unoccupied territories, others in the lost ones. And it will all be our country’s fault.
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 02: 36
        We'll see in 4 1/2 years - point 4.
    2. +2
      10 November 2020 02: 28
      Krasnodar Today, 02: 22
      The war is over, Aliyev is beautiful. Putin is great.


      And Pashinyan, it seems, is “kirdyk.”

      A protest rally began near the Armenian government building in Yerevan by those who disagreed with Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan’s decision on Nagorno-Karabakh. He previously announced that he had signed agreements with the presidents of Russia and Azerbaijan, Vladimir Putin and Ilham Aliyev, to end the war in Karabakh. The government building was cordoned off by police, Interfax reports.

      Protesters broke into the Armenian government building in the center of Yerevan. They broke down the doors and started breaking the glass inside. A protest rally is taking place near the government building over an agreement to end the war in Karabakh.

      According to Interfax, dozens of people entered the building. They smash doors, windows and tore down a sign from Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan’s office. “Where is Nikol, where is this traitor,” the agency reports the words of the protesters. RIA Novosti claims that hundreds of people entered the government building.

      The police did not use force and tried to calm the protestersTASS reports
      1. +2
        10 November 2020 02: 38
        Well, so - a suitcase, a plane, Rostov. Maybe Krasnodar. I'm renting an apartment, inexpensive.
        1. 0
          10 November 2020 02: 58
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Well, so - a suitcase, a plane, Rostov. Maybe Krasnodar...

          That's the right idea. We need to develop the regions.
          Otherwise, I’m afraid that in Rostov, after Trump moves there, it will be a bit crowded.
          Although, if the latter builds another “Trump Tower” in Rostov, then it will be possible to receive “formers” from all over the world. wassat
          1. 0
            10 November 2020 03: 25
            Why do we need this Soros litter? If Yanukovosch is at least somehow close to us, then this is absolutely nothing. You will also offer to give Saakashvili shelter.
      2. +3
        10 November 2020 02: 43
        They would take the “available” means and go to defend Artsakh. And the government building in Yerevan can be destroyed by anyone who wants it. At the front, however, these “pogromists” are nowhere to be seen.
        1. 0
          10 November 2020 02: 51
          Quote: rruvim
          They would take the “available” means and go to defend Artsakh. And the government building in Yerevan can be destroyed by anyone who wants it. At the front, however, these “pogromists” are nowhere to be seen.

          That's exactly what I thought - you voiced it!
    3. 0
      10 November 2020 02: 40
      Both are "well done." But why sacrifice two MI-24 pilots? Is it sacred?
    4. 0
      10 November 2020 02: 48
      Well, it turns out that the 24 pilots had to pay with their lives for this Karabakh “peace”? How fast everything is, one after another.
      By the way, there are reports of powerful explosions in Baku. Looks like a missile attack.
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 02: 56
        Nobody knows what was primary and what was secondary. More realistically: peace was concluded (agreed on) earlier, and our helicopter was shot down at “farewell”, when our columns were already heading towards Artsakh within the framework of the agreements. In any case, what should she do there?
  73. 0
    10 November 2020 02: 31
    Quote: Old Tanker
    That is, as in the market, in the calculation. Oh well. We still lacked an exchange of missile strikes with Azerbaijan.

    why are you snapping? wipe yourself off and walk silently))) otherwise you see here he is for peace in the whole world, but he is responsible for answering)))))
  74. The comment was deleted.
  75. +1
    10 November 2020 02: 51
    ...in the amount of 1960 military personnel with small arms, 90 armored personnel carriers, 380 units of automobile and special equipment.
    I think that such agreements were already discussed in advance, and MI-24, OUR, was shot down as a “reminder”. For this column was already moving towards its destination. “A farewell kiss,” so to speak, to our brilliant army command. I kept thinking before this why Shusha was surrendered without a fight. Now it is clear...
    1. +1
      10 November 2020 03: 00
      More like an act about the end of the Russian Federation’s patience. They shot down a helicopter, Putin stamped his foot, shouted “ODEKABE” and... forced everyone to peace. Power and influence have been proven, the war has been stopped, the hidden goals of the Russian Federation, AZ, AM and TR have been achieved. The price tag is thousands of lives, thousands of destinies and our two pilots. This is the Karabakh performance.
  76. +1
    10 November 2020 02: 53
    My condolences to Russia and the families of the tragically killed Russian pilots! The Kingdom of Heaven to them! May we rest in peace to the fallen Russian servicemen...
  77. 0
    10 November 2020 02: 53

    Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev announced the Armenian prime minister’s refusal to sign a ceasefire statement in Karabakh.
    BAKU, November 10 - Sputnik. The Prime Minister of Armenia refused to sign a joint statement to end hostilities in Nagorno-Karabakh, but he will have to do so.

    Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev stated this during his address to the nation

    People are becoming more and more wonderful what
    1. 0
      10 November 2020 03: 06
      “If you can’t, we’ll teach you. If you don’t want to, we’ll force you!” The brigadier decided to finally “stir up” the peace in Karabakh with Aliyev and Erdogan, hence Stir up. And the prime minister for Armenia is a figurehead. Pashinyan signed and that’s enough. The Armenians themselves pooped their “halav”, it’s time to come to terms...
    2. +3
      10 November 2020 03: 11
      Quote: Krasnodar

      Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev announced the Armenian prime minister’s refusal to sign a ceasefire statement in Karabakh.
      BAKU, November 10 - Sputnik. The Prime Minister of Armenia refused to sign a joint statement to end hostilities in Nagorno-Karabakh, but he will have to do so.

      Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev stated this during his address to the nation

      People are becoming more and more wonderful what

      Well, then Pashinyan is twice out of luck. No.
      If he is not killed in Armenia now, then when he tries to escape, he will definitely end up in Rostov, but as a scarecrow (in the natural sense). For edification, so to speak.
      Because Putin has already made an official statement about the signing on TV.
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 03: 20
        I am concerned about the safety of the peacekeepers given such discord among the Armenians.
        1. +1
          10 November 2020 03: 48
          Quote: Krasnodar
          I am concerned about the safety of the peacekeepers given such discord among the Armenians.


          <<More and more curious>> (c)
          A message appeared that the peacekeepers, according to Aliyev’s statement, would be joint Russian-Turkish ones. Although in the text of the “tripartite statement” there is not a word about the Turks.

          After the end of hostilities, a joint peacekeeping mission consisting of military personnel from Russia and Turkey will be deployed in Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev stated this in his address to the nation, Sputnik Azerbaijan reports on Telegram.

          “There will be a joint peacekeeping mission between Russia and Turkey. This is a new format,” Aliyev said during a video conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin, Interfax reports.

          Read more at RBC:
          https://www.rbc.ru/politics/10/11/2020/5fa9ccb49a79471b3c305f60


          PS. It seems that the Armenian Simonyan is out of control, since Sputnik is a subsidiary of RT.
          - Interpreting Aliyev’s words about Erdogan’s political assistance in peacekeeping activities as the introduction of Turkish peacekeepers is “adding gasoline to the fire of the conflict.”
          I think “organizational conclusions” will follow. Although - “we’ll see.”
          Aliyev's words about Erdogan's role from 4:05
  78. 0
    10 November 2020 03: 00
    But I don’t understand why our column moved out at night?
    In a war zone, despite the fact that we are not a belligerent party.
    What was the need to drive cars at night across the battlefield?
    Apparently someone wanted to play the hero?
    1. 0
      10 November 2020 03: 12
      Fix the status quo
  79. -2
    10 November 2020 03: 24
    I don’t understand why the Brigadier decided to introduce a peacekeeping contingent in Artsakh from Russian citizens, without asking the citizens themselves? After all, out of these 1960 guys and girls from the sanitary services, the dead and wounded will definitely appear. Unexploded shells and mines that were not neutralized, shooting from the Azerbaijanis and “response” from the Armenians (crossroads). Why do we need all this? Why does the Brigadier decide all this for our country without asking our opinion? After all, Karabakh is outside the coverage area of ​​the CSTO treaties and outside UN resolutions. For some reason, our guys (men) must become a cordon between the “snickering” Christian Armenians and the Pank-Turks of Erdogan-Aliev. Why do we need this? What is the “plum pit”, so to speak?
    1. +1
      10 November 2020 03: 43
      Preserve and increase your influence in Transcaucasia. Score political points. Don't let the Armenians be slaughtered in the end. And you won’t envy our guys for having to climb into such hell.
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 03: 56
        Do you understand what you are writing? In August 2008, we lost 300 people killed, incl. and peacekeepers in the territory that bordered us. Here we leave 1960 personnel as hostages, only with lightly armored equipment, without aviation support (one of the conditions of the Turkish-Azerbaijani command). You understand that these so-called peacekeepers will be swept away when necessary. But these are Russian people. Someone's sons. It would be good if they could fulfill their “duty” if there were communications, and not in the territory that is now, “a priori,” located in an enclave. And this is not Kaliningrad!
        1. 0
          10 November 2020 04: 19
          With these distances, aviation and air defense support is provided within minutes from the moment the decision is made
  80. +2
    10 November 2020 03: 57
    And this is where the war ended, the tension broke, both sides got stars, they played around, they went too far, it’s time to end it. Happy memory to the pilots.
    1. -1
      10 November 2020 04: 05
      Pilots, obviously blessed memory! They carried out the order. Like the icing on the cake of the Brigadier-Aliyev-Pashinyan “peace” agreement...
  81. 0
    10 November 2020 04: 18
    This is a provocation of Soros, he needs to drag the Russians into the conflict between the Azeri and the Armenians............
  82. -1
    10 November 2020 04: 22
    If they shot it down, and they treated it with understanding, then why not shoot it down again?
  83. The comment was deleted.
  84. 0
    10 November 2020 05: 10
    Aliyev did the right thing by apologizing; those responsible will be punished. There's no time for that now. And then they will find who they need. But our command also needs to conduct an internal investigation into the advisability of using the Mi-24 to escort the convoy. Strange helicopter flight...
  85. +1
    10 November 2020 05: 14
    For such “things” it is necessary to take a tough answer, but our “supreme” forgives all Jews and Turks and will forgive them. This is wrong. Our guys are dying!
  86. 0
    10 November 2020 06: 05
    ALLAH bless you pilots
  87. 0
    10 November 2020 06: 45
    The USA and England will do everything possible to drag Russia into a war in Transcaucasia or somewhere else in the post-Soviet space... We cannot do without war, but only when it is beneficial to us and not to the Anglo-Saxons.
    For now, our job is not to succumb to enemy provocations.
  88. -1
    10 November 2020 08: 29
    The Armenian provocation has crossed all boundaries. 80% of employees at the 102nd base are Armenians.
    2 states are at war. Yesterday they didn’t shoot on this section of the border, but today they can, the military is at the highest level of readiness. And then it turns out that a helicopter is flying with Armenian provocateurs serving at the 102nd base at a low altitude so that the air defense does not detect it, 500 meters from the border. Of course they will shoot you down, where are the base authorities looking? And one more thing: the 102nd base in Gyumri, hundreds of kilometers from the border with Nakhichevan (where it happened), it is immediately clear that the Armenian provocation
  89. 0
    10 November 2020 08: 44
    And where are the photos of the large craters at the launch site and control center?!
    Well, and, of course, an apology for fighting back...
  90. 0
    10 November 2020 09: 08
    Revenge is a dish that should be served cold!
  91. 0
    10 November 2020 09: 27
    Putin will again wipe himself with a wad of greasy Turkic money.
  92. 0
    10 November 2020 10: 24
    What kind of comments, a complete lack of political will, everyone is talking, the entire economy has been ruined, now we will find out. that foreign policy is lame on both sides, lawyers in high positions with professionalism below the plinth. Who will be responsible for the two dead, how will their relatives and friends live? Whining and tongue wagging. Ugh, disgusting to watch and listen to. Which normal person would believe that it was shot down by accident? Only an irresponsible and cynical little man.
  93. +1
    10 November 2020 10: 47
    Don’t worry, there will definitely be a response from our side, but we are unlikely to know about it. In some places a truck with Azeri tomatoes will be stopped at the border for a couple of days, in others they won’t let a journalist in.
  94. 0
    10 November 2020 11: 42
    Shoooooo!!!!! Again!!!!!!???????????
  95. 0
    10 November 2020 11: 58
    Was it a civilian helicopter or a military one, if military, then why is there no missile defense? Where does the budget money go? For nano-pocket developments?
  96. 0
    10 November 2020 12: 15
    Condolences to the families of the deceased guys! A speedy recovery to those still alive! Where the Turks are, there is the Blood of our Guys! Why doesn't the blood of the Turks flow??!! In response!!!
  97. 0
    10 November 2020 14: 21
    Quote: Vsepomni
    But what about the Russians in Azerbaijan. You are not sorry for them

    no, they are no longer Russian... they don’t need Russia to fight for their Azerbaijan. Well, let them do the raking themselves. Everyone who wanted to left has long ago left... and there are a lot of them. Azerbaijanis are fierce nationalists... how many people were killed not of their own nationality in the 90s... they are just silent about it now.
  98. 0
    10 November 2020 14: 24
    Quote: TermNachTER
    There are not many traps on board. They start shooting only if there is a real danger. Apparently no one expected such meanness.

    as always... we think that there are adequate people on the other side... as usual, it turns out to be jackals
  99. 0
    10 November 2020 14: 30
    Both Armenia and Azerbaijan have shown that they are savages who have not matured into an independent state. Well, they have neither the will, nor the experience, nor the desire to live in peace with everyone.
    Therefore, they need to be included in the new supranational formation on the territory of the former USSR. Only then will these problems disappear.
  100. 0
    10 November 2020 14: 45
    Unfortunately, it is in the “Turkish direction” that the Kremlin’s foreign policy is more than strange.
    Turkey shoots down our plane, our ambassador is killed, there is a terrorist attack at Istanbul airport, and we open up the flow of tourists... We sell a small amount of S400 to a NATO country, which is clearly not enough for protection, but enough to reveal its potential, characteristics and technologies... Now a vassal of Turkey (Azerbaijan) our helicopter was shot down... What next? Shall we open a couple more gas flows through the Erdogan valve or sell Iskanders and Calibers to Turkey???
    1. 0
      10 November 2020 18: 48
      They have their own analogues of Iskander and Caliber.
      1. 0
        10 November 2020 19: 20
        For example? and in the case of the S400, they also have the opportunity to purchase a “patriot”)))
        As a NATO country they must follow STANDARDS. Buying our weapons is pure technical espionage...
        1. 0
          10 November 2020 19: 40
          An analogue of the Iskander is the OTRK Bora.
        2. 0
          10 November 2020 19: 47
          Turkish analogue of the caliber.
          1. 0
            10 November 2020 19: 53
            Moreover... I’m just saying this because the Turks bought the S400 not for protection, but for technical espionage. Both Calibers and Iskanders can be sold for the same purposes...