Green revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word

654
Green revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word


Nobody tried to put together the numbers and statistics on the European "alternative" energy? Recommend. Very fascinating sight. After half an hour of enthusiastic digging on the Internet, I realized: everything that is written about the energy alternative is a lie. And a lie from the first to the last word.



I propose to calculate the cost of "green" electricity produced in Europe. To calculate and make sure that NEVER, or under any circumstances, it can compare with the traditional one, and that everything that is written about it today is a deception from the first to the last word.

I will make a reservation right away: you cannot indiscriminately reject any idea Wind generation with the confluence of certain circumstances can be economically beneficial. She has even a very local, but future. True, in Europe it is just the last thing. In general, it is very likely that all this beautiful tale of green energy arose only as a result of the energy war being waged by Washington against the USSR for more than a decade. And the Europeans themselves, who believed in this fairy tale, suffer. Tale from the first to the last word.

Smooth was on paper

As we have seen past materialThe most effective and most promising form of "green" electric power is wind power. The remaining methods of producing electricity are much more expensive, and therefore lower, so as not to waste time, we will not consider them.

By the way, you did not pay attention, how do supporters of the “green energy industry” explain their advantages? I took an interest and found out that 80-90% of the numbers in the articles have been moving for the second decade from material to material, and nobody really cares that these data are outdated for a long time, and some are simply fictitious. On the other hand, the Greens talk a lot about their achievements. And every year new figures come out, showing how quickly the “green energy” is catching up with the traditionalists. And they really do not like to go into details. Why? But just this I understood only after I plunged into them myself and found out that the king was naked. And he will be naked all the time, no matter how developed technical progress.

For example, in recent publications, the figure of the cost of commissioning 1 kW of installed power for wind generation in the amount of approximately US $ 1000 appears everywhere. The parameter is very important, because the final figure of the cost of electricity produced by “windmills” largely depends on it.

But, as the documentation of real projects shows, this is the cost of only one turbine. It is all the same if we estimated the cost of nuclear power plants based on the cost of the reactor plus the turbine hall. But these are albeit important, but far from complete figures.

At the same time, this figure is not applicable to all equipment, but only to the weakest segment (turbine power is of the order of 100 kW). But such generators themselves are inefficient due to their structural limitations, the most powerful ones are already much more expensive. For example, the cost of building one of the most powerful modern wind turbines Enercon E-126 with a power of 7,58 MW is 11 million euros. And this is today 1,5-1,7 thousand dollars (depending on the cross exchange rate of currencies). Plus you need more money to connect it to the power grid.

In this case, we are still considering options for land wind farms. But in Europe it is very difficult to find a place so that on the one hand it is cheap to build, and on the other - that sufficient winds blow there. That is why now the main wind farm projects are being built at sea. But completely different numbers are already working here.



An example of the latest projects. The most powerful offshore wind farm (300 MW) Thanet Wind Farm, Kent (England). Cost - 1,4 billion dollars, or 4,67 thousand dollars per 1 kW of installed capacity.

Agree that there is a difference between 1,0 thousand. $ And 4,67 thousand. $.

But even if we consider the cheapest American WECs, we still will not get the stated figure. According to According to for 2016 a year, the average unit capital cost in the USA for 1 kW of installed capacity for this type of station was US $ 1590 with the average cost of the turbines themselves even slightly lower than US $ NNXX. Moreover, the analysis of investment projects on 1000 year shows that no reduction of this figure this year is foreseen !!!

Why not foreseen? About this below, but for now let's think about this.

It is not enough to build a station. Ultimately, it can be built and not work a single day. In this case, we get a net loss, no matter how much it costs us. In the energy sector there is such a parameter as the utilization factor of the installed power (ICUM). Moreover, unlike the efficiency, it can be higher than one, that is, 100%. For example, in modern nuclear power plants today it averages about 75-80%. But this is in the context of the year, and if the unit did not stop for a month for repairs, the capacity factor of it may be 105% and even slightly higher.



Due to what? Just initially the unit was designed for some TVELs. But technology does not stand still not only in wind power. But also for nuclear scientists. New assemblies are being developed, which have improved characteristics and make it possible to obtain a greater amount of heat in the same reactor and, therefore, electricity. That is why the power plant utilization capacity of NPPs today sometimes reaches 95-98% during the fuel session, even taking into account the necessary technological downtime associated with the replacement of part of the fuel and spare parts that have worked their life. In general, the figure is consistently higher than 80% in the industry as a whole is attainable today, and this is not the limit.

And what do we have with the capacity factor for wind generation? The most efficient windmills are in America. For example, in the USA, this parameter rarely drops below 25%. Now China has 15%. AT Germany, as shown by long-term measurements (from 2002 of the year), from 15 to 20% in total. And there has not yet been any progress.



And this is just explainable. In terms of wind generation, the USA has some of the best conditions in the world. There are many places where constant and strong winds blow. China and Germany have fewer of them. And it is also obvious that the farther, the less places will remain with similar conditions. Here you can either put up with the constant fall of the capacity factor and compensate for its height of raising the turbine, or build at sea, which, as we saw above, has its drawbacks. The price of such a power plant is multiplying, as well as maintenance.

So at the expense of what today we are seeing a decrease in the cost of electricity production at wind farms? Everything is very simple. There is no technical secret or know-how here. The theory was developed in 1950-x, and it says that the efficiency of such units can be increased by raising them as high as possible and increasing the size of the bearing blades.

Actually, that is why today all the developers of “wind turbines” have chased the power of the generators. If even 10 years ago, turbines with a power of 100-300 kW were mounted with might and main, today we already have megawatts. They are large, but, despite the high cost, more cost-effective than low-power units.

But such growth cannot be infinite. Even today, the most powerful generators are 120 meter towers with a height of the upper edge of the blades up to 180 meters.



It is impossible to increase these dimensions to infinity, as it is impossible to increase the average wind speed on the ground. At some stage, the further increase in the cost of such an aggregate will begin to exceed the increase in its efficiency. And "technical progress" will stop at this as expected, as it began 20 years ago.

With this question, I think everything is clear. And now the fun part. Is there a chance for a wind farm, even in theory, to become competitors, for example, a nuclear power plant? Well, at least at the cost of electricity produced.

About the stability of the energy supply, of course, in this case it is simply incorrect to speak.

So, we calculate the cost of electricity for modern American wind farms. Capital costs 1600 US dollars per 1 kW, equipment life 25 years (equipment life time specified by the manufacturer), power factor 0,25. The price of electricity at 2,9 cents capital costs.

RememberWhat numbers did we get for the Belarusian NPP under construction:

Capital expenditures, taking into account the construction of the town of nuclear industry with its entire 0,93 infrastructure of eurocents per 1 kWh, or 1,1-1,3 US cent. Apart from the related infrastructure (for correctness), we have 0,62 eurocents or 0,8-0,9 US cents per 1 kWh of electricity generated.

Perhaps overhead costs put everything in its place? We have already obtained the operational costs of NPPs from these environmentalists (that is, our opponents). This is roughly 1,1 US cent per 1 kWh. It was difficult to find data on WEC, but I found it in the brochure of Russian sellers of this equipment. They claim that this amount is no more than 1 rubles per 1 kWh. That is, at the current rate of approximately 1,7 cent. Let 1,5.

Moreover, I focus attention, the figures are taken for the WPPs the most favorable, that is, those that the developer and the seller of equipment insist on, and for the NPP, on the contrary, the numbers are taken from the reports of opponents.

Total, taking into account the cost of operating the plant, US wind farms that were commissioned in 2016 year, on average, will have the cost of electricity production at the level of 4,5 cent per 1 kW * h.

At the NPP, this parameter is obtained 2,8-3 cent per 1 kWh. In order to reach the same efficiency figures as nuclear power engineers, American wind defenders need to cut their specific capital construction costs at least twice. Or less, but then you also need to achieve and reduce operating costs. Which in many respects constitute the SPTA and ZP of the attendants, and here you won’t save much.

But, I repeat, this is the case of the United States, that is, the most ideal case. In Europe, you guessed it, everything is much worse.

We take the real (and not theoretical) project of the Thanet Wind Farm wind power plant that we have already reviewed above.

It is easy to calculate that at the cost of capital expenditures in the area of ​​4 670 US dollars for 1 kW * h and CFC 17% (on average in Europe), the cost of such electricity will increase to 15 cents for 1 kW h.

And even if this parameter will ever be reduced threefold (which is unrealistic in theory), even then such wind generation will be at least twice as expensive as today's NPP indicators.

Someone else has questions about why I consider the European “green energy” to be a great profanation and the greatest deception? In my opinion, everything is so clear.
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  1. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 20: 30
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    I followed the links.

    - oh, you are making first progress! :)
    Maybe we should have started with this, and only then banged something on the keys? :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      +1
      22 December 2017 21: 50
      Quote: nickd55
      - oh, you are making first progress! :)
      Maybe we should have started with this, and only then banged something on the keys? :)

      you should stop being rude, I personally had enough of your stupidity said on air that the kettle and air conditioner are not turned on at the same time
  2. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 20: 33
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Next is the solar tracking system.

    - yes, she is not needed, she is NOT NEEDED! :) Expensive and difficult, and in regions where there is a stormy wind, it’s generally stupid.
    However, everyone is “treated” in their own way... You can achieve the same result at different costs. :)
  3. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 20: 43
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    You can hardly fit into a million.

    - I repeat - for an average house in the southern regions of the country and, if everything is done WITH YOUR HEAD on your shoulders, then you can easily fit in 350-450 thousand for a hybrid power supply system.
    Often more costs will not be required, it simply won’t make sense.
    And in those places where there is at least some kind of network, but there is no network gas, it is generally possible to build an energy-efficient house, which will also provide itself with heat and hot water supply using a heat pump, while the annual balance of consumption from the network can generally be reduced to ZERO. :)) But in this case, indeed, the costs for a solar power plant and a heat pump will be about a million. But what is the result! :) And land in such places, by the way, costs the same million (or even more) - cheaper. :) How do you like this arithmetic? :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      22 December 2017 22: 05
      Quote: nickd55
      - I repeat - for an average house in the southern regions of the country and, if everything is done WITH YOUR HEAD on your shoulders, then you can easily fit in 350-450 thousand for a hybrid power supply system.

      Before you get smart, you should pick up a calculator and do the math, maybe you should stop writing nonsense
      Quote: nickd55
      I will add that 5000 kWh per year is 417 per month.

      we take your minimum figure of 350 thousand
      we take data on tariffs in the Krasnodar region (it seems like you live there)
      Tariffs for rural population:
      within the social norm
      from January 1 to June 30, 2017 - RUB 3,00. per kWh
      from July 1 to December 31, 2017 - 3,11 rubles. per kWh
      above the social norm
      from January 1 to June 30, 2017 - RUB 3,00. per kWh
      from July 1 to December 31, 2017 - 4,35 rubles. per kWh

      your social norm is 250 kW
      let's take the maximum 4 per month, that comes out to 35 rubles
      at the cost of the system, the payback will be 192,95 months or 16 years
      that is, I can buy electricity for 16 years for 350 thousand from your supplier without having any hemorrhoids and without taking 350 thousand out of my pocket, which for most is simply not affordable, but I can easily pay 1800 rubles a month, and this is at an inflated tariff, I'm just too lazy to count two tariffs

      I don’t know what you can do with your hands, but you’re bad at thinking and counting with your head
      1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
        dubovitskiy.1947
        0
        22 December 2017 22: 26
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Quote: nickd55
        - I repeat - for an average house in the southern regions of the country and, if everything is done WITH YOUR HEAD on your shoulders, then you can easily fit in 350-450 thousand for a hybrid power supply system.

        Before you get smart, you should pick up a calculator and do the math, maybe you should stop writing nonsense
        Quote: nickd55
        I will add that 5000 kWh per year is 417 per month.

        we take your minimum figure of 350 thousand
        we take data on tariffs in the Krasnodar region (it seems like you live there)
        Tariffs for rural population:
        within the social norm
        from January 1 to June 30, 2017 - RUB 3,00. per kWh
        from July 1 to December 31, 2017 - 3,11 rubles. per kWh
        above the social norm
        from January 1 to June 30, 2017 - RUB 3,00. per kWh
        from July 1 to December 31, 2017 - 4,35 rubles. per kWh

        your social norm is 250 kW
        let's take the maximum 4 per month, that comes out to 35 rubles
        at the cost of the system, the payback will be 192,95 months or 16 years
        that is, I can buy electricity for 16 years for 350 thousand from your supplier without having any hemorrhoids and without taking 350 thousand out of my pocket, which for most is simply not affordable, but I can easily pay 1800 rubles a month, and this is at an inflated tariff, I'm just too lazy to count two tariffs

        I don’t know what you can do with your hands, but you’re bad at thinking and counting with your head

        To your calculations you need to add three or four times replacement of equipment, because the lifespan of the same batteries is two to three years. The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels.
        It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have. And servicing third parties will make him a hostage to these organ grinders.
        It will be especially funny to see him not fulfilling his obligations regarding energy supplies as provided for in the Treaties. And those who pay penalties and fines.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
          Vasilenko Vladimir
          0
          23 December 2017 08: 23
          Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
          To your calculations you need to add three or four times replacement of equipment, because the lifespan of the same batteries is two to three years. The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels.

          I deliberately did not turn on maintenance services, because frankly speaking, it complicates the calculation and I have no desire to sit in vain
          As for 2-3 years, you went too far; the manufacturer gives much more, but the fact that the service life is approximately equal to the payback period is a fact, that is, as soon as you have paid off for a year or three, many things need to be replaced with new ones
          Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
          It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have.

          this is extremely untrue, especially for industrial equipment, warranty, service life are completely different things
          1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
            dubovitskiy.1947
            0
            23 December 2017 10: 37
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            To your calculations you need to add three or four times replacement of equipment, because the lifespan of the same batteries is two to three years. The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels.

            I deliberately did not turn on maintenance services, because frankly speaking, it complicates the calculation and I have no desire to sit in vain
            As for 2-3 years, you went too far; the manufacturer gives much more, but the fact that the service life is approximately equal to the payback period is a fact, that is, as soon as you have paid off for a year or three, many things need to be replaced with new ones
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have.

            this is extremely untrue, especially for industrial equipment, warranty, service life are completely different things

            You are absolutely wrong about the service life. You have changed cause and effect. The length of service at an enterprise is a guiding period, but not for technical services, but for the chief accountant. If the technical documentation indicates a service life of 10 years, then it charges depreciation at 10% per year. If the service life is 5 years, then = 20%. And then everything will come together. Bukh will not sign the write-off act ahead of schedule if the costs are not attributed to the culprit. That's how this kitchen works.
            In the USSR, a product worth more than 50 rubles was considered a fixed asset. At a lower price - to a low price, which was written off from the balance sheet of the enterprise at the time of issue from the warehouse.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
              Vasilenko Vladimir
              0
              23 December 2017 11: 13
              warranty and service life are different things, that's what I'm talking about
          2. dubovitsckij.viktor Rank
            dubovitsckij.viktor
            +1
            23 December 2017 22: 42
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            To your calculations you need to add three or four times replacement of equipment, because the lifespan of the same batteries is two to three years. The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels.

            I deliberately did not turn on maintenance services, because frankly speaking, it complicates the calculation and I have no desire to sit in vain
            As for 2-3 years, you went too far; the manufacturer gives much more, but the fact that the service life is approximately equal to the payback period is a fact, that is, as soon as you have paid off for a year or three, many things need to be replaced with new ones
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have.

            this is extremely untrue, especially for industrial equipment, warranty, service life are completely different things

            And for this you do not need to incur replacement costs. It is enough to evaluate whether it is possible to operate it in such a long-term mode. For 20-25 years not a single piece of hardware standing in the open air works.
  4. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 20: 45
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    I'm not talking about the difficulties of licensing this business.

    - What are you talking about now? :)) Some kind of kindergarten... Licensing is NOT REQUIRED at all. :) Don't confuse warm with soft. Hey, do you even know what you’re writing? :)
    1. dubovitsckij.viktor Rank
      dubovitsckij.viktor
      +1
      23 December 2017 22: 46
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      I'm not talking about the difficulties of licensing this business.

      - What are you talking about now? :)) Some kind of kindergarten... Licensing is NOT REQUIRED at all. :) Don't confuse warm with soft. Hey, do you even know what you’re writing? :)

      While you're going crazy behind your fence, that's your business, you can generally work with bare wires twisted into scrolls. But when you go out the gate, then be kind, know and be able. Or do you think that with their equipment they will allow you to calmly kill your neighbors and more? Or do you think that your energy, which burned down the neighbor’s refrigerator, will not regurgitate you in a good way?
  5. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 20: 51
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    I doubt that such wooden comrades understand law.

    - want to talk about it? Aren't you afraid that it will look very stupid again? :)
    Come on, I’m really looking forward to documents from you that talk about licensing microgeneration. I'm all ears. :)
    1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
      dubovitskiy.1947
      +1
      22 December 2017 23: 13
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      I doubt that such wooden comrades understand law.

      - want to talk about it? Aren't you afraid that it will look very stupid again? :)
      Come on, I’m really looking forward to documents from you that talk about licensing microgeneration. I'm all ears. :)

      No, schizophrenia is not my diagnosis.
  6. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    22 December 2017 21: 08
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    I just had fun looking at this naive chick - where is he going? Does he think he will set the selling price? If I pay 2,3 rubles per kilowatt-hour, then at this, everyday price, will it go crazy? And even more so - at the prices of industrial enterprises! He will receive a price at the level of the wholesale price in the region. Fifty dollars, and no more. It would be nice if he read this message. Maybe it will turn on the brain.

    - Grandfather, I’m sorry, but I’m not as young as you imagined for yourself. :)
    Try reading the topic again, maybe then your brain will turn on...? :)

    For people with a head I will repeat - the microgeneration system will “blow up” at a price determined as the average market (wholesale) in a particular region (indicated in the Government Decree). Whether it will be one and a half, two or three rubles is not so important, the main thing is that in what the Government has planned there are no “green tariffs” (that is, no one will stretch the budget), the task set by the legislator in the Law “On Electric Power Industry” in terms of compensation is being fulfilled losses in the “last mile”, and the owners of micro-SPPs get the opportunity not to waste a single Watt of the energy received.
    Thus, it is planned to implement a reasonable compromise, interaction and consideration of the interests of all parties, as grandfather recently bequeathed to us here. :)
  7. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 10: 37
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: nickd55
    You still don’t understand which way the wind is blowing. :)

    I'll continue. Replacing meters is not done to help crazy people go crazy. Not at all. This is a fight against defaulters. Moreover, at the expense of the consumer. It says that the meters will be replaced and in the future transferred to the ownership of energy companies. But there is no other way to pay for this work except from the pockets of ordinary consumers. And through the same electrical network, these smart devices will communicate digitally with that same energy company. They will change the tariff, and they will know what the costs are, and turn off the defaulter. All without leaving your offices.
    What are you up to, forgive me, Lord!

    Honor.

    Consumers are tired of green energy. They're asking the White House to stop subsidizing it.

    http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1513072287


    :) You are again trying to tell me what I know without you. And you don’t need to “poke” me.
    I read this article yesterday and have been aware of events for a long time. This is a tug-of-war between two sides of processes in the WHOLESALE market.
    Microgeneration has NO relation to this and does not imply ANY “green” tariffs, and does not require ANY budget money. :)
    You are not the first to throw a spear at “windmills” that do not exist. :) Only earlier did people, after studying the equipment, for some reason begin to realize the difference between microgeneration and the wholesale market, in which investors of large stations play with their own pockets. But in your case, medicine seems to be powerless. :)
    However, this does not reach you.
  8. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 10: 45
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    AND WHERE DOES THESE TWO LINKS SAY THAT YOU CAN JOIN ENERGY GENERATION TOMORROW? It says that at the expense of consumers (indirectly, through an increase in tariffs, they will be replaced with meters that have the ability to remotely, including via network wires, transmit information about energy consumption, disconnect a consumer who has not paid for consumption, and also drive via the Internet tariffs, changing them in accordance with your interests. There is not a word about reversible meters and microgeneration. You have greatly confused something. Your preparation in the legal and technical aspects is visible.

    - Do you even know how to read? Two government orders specifically talk about microgeneration and only about it. :) Where and when exactly did I write that everything will be decided TOMORROW? :)
    But the fact that this, with a high degree of probability, will happen next year is due to Government decisions that you do not know how to read.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 11: 30
      Quote: nickd55
      But the fact that this, with a high degree of probability, will happen next year is due to Government decisions that you do not know how to read.

      you would also learn to understand what you read
  9. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 11: 02
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    the payback of the generator is considered to be elementary costs (all that you incurred to install the system), then you divide this cost by the cost of electricity at which you could buy it from a third-party consumer, you get the total amount of electricity that you could buy from a third-party supplier, divide by the average consumption, you get time payback is calculated in the same way as everything else, just unlike you, I have calculated the payback of industrial equipment for my own company more than a dozen times

    - I repeat:
    The term "payback" is not applicable in this case at all. I have already described ten reasons here. When you calculate the payback period for your personal car and washing machine, then maybe I’ll explain at the eleventh hour. :)
    Your calculations are completely incorrect. If we count costs, then we need to count EVERYTHING:
    - and the cost of connecting to the network “from scratch” in a specific location, and the cost of an emergency gas generator plus fuel and lubricants and operating costs, and the cost of burning televisions or other household appliances due to network surges during emergencies, and the current tariff, and its expected growth cost over the service life of solar power plant equipment (25 years), and “social norms”,
    - on the other hand, it is ALSO necessary to take into account ALL costs for 25 years of operation.
    It is by taking into account ALL these costs that it is now possible to install systems that will produce electricity over their service life at a price of 3,2-3,5 per kWh.
    Those interested can take their tariff and calculate how much a kWh can cost approximately, provided that it grows by 4% every year (the result will be interesting), and then calculate the approximate average annual cost of a kWh and compare it with the calculated one when using a solar power plant.
    1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
      dubovitskiy.1947
      0
      23 December 2017 11: 12
      Quote: nickd55
      It is by taking into account ALL these costs that it is now possible to install systems that will produce electricity over their service life at a price of 3,2-3,5 per kWh.

      The cost of electrical energy at hydroelectric power plants is around 1 ruble per kilowatt-hour (in Siberia at Sayano-Shushenskaya 18 kopecks). If you sell yours for 3 rubles today, and the consumer today pays 2-2,5 rubles, depending on the region. And whoever buys from you, he will dump the difference out of his own pocket, and he will also do the delivery, and he himself, like the Jew who sold boiled eggs at the price of raw eggs, claimed that he drinks the brine from these eggs as a profit. The wholesale price is not what we pay at all.
      And second. I wanted to see an eccentric who has kept prices the same for 25 years. When competitors raise 4% per year.
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 12: 03
      Quote: nickd55
      I repeat:
      The term "payback" is not applicable in this case at all.

      child truly
      payback applies to any economic project
  10. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 11: 39
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    I have calculated the payback of industrial equipment for my own company more than a dozen times

    - What does all this have to do with it?
    You earn PROFIT from your promotional equipment, and a home SPP is not intended for making money at all, it is a HOUSEHOLD device that increases the level of comfort of living in your own home, provides protection from network emergencies, allowing you to eliminate all costs for a gas generator and its operation, and also - provides reasonable savings on network consumption for a given location. :)
    Just as the word “benefit” cannot be applied to a personal car, it should not be used in relation to a home SES.
    This is NOT a benefit, this is CONVENIENCE! Supported, in some cases, by sober economic calculations.
    That's all. :)
  11. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 09
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Once again, for the ignorant, give (without unnecessary numbers) the total amount of costs and the average monthly volume of consumption and within 30 seconds we will understand whether it is economically profitable or not, I will repeat without unnecessary snot the total amount of costs for installing and purchasing the system

    - once again for the “not balabols”, you think - it’s crooked, but it’s not worth saying “we” for everyone.
    The average monthly volume of CONSUMPTION has nothing to do with the calculation of economic efficiency.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 13: 09
      Quote: nickd55
      you think it’s crooked

      refute, only in numbers
      Quote: nickd55
      The average monthly volume of CONSUMPTION has nothing to do with the calculation of economic efficiency.

      Economic efficiency (production efficiency)
      - this is the relationship between the results of production - products and services, on the one hand, and the costs of labor and means of production - on the other
      payback without average parameters you will never calculate the calculation is exactly how it is done
      By the way, what do you do when you’re not advertising individual installations?!
  12. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 29
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    I repeat - I am ready to answer in court for every word I say.
    Are you ready to prove these nonsense of yours in court? :)

    Why are you scaring everyone with a lawsuit, what does the court have to do with it, do you really think that someone will sue you?!!!

    - firstly, not all,
    - secondly, I’m not “scaring”, but I propose to resolve the issue of your slander, as it should be for adults, in court. :)
    And you are afraid of this, because you cannot confirm anything with facts, that’s all. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 13: 25
      Quote: nickd55
      - secondly, I’m not “scaring”, but I propose to resolve the issue of your slander, as it should be for adults, in court. :)

      What is slander?!!!!
      further, “adult” uncle, they show you the inconsistency of your reasoning in numbers, but like most enthusiastic amateurs, you aggressively defend, defend your love and affection without delving into any arguments
      payback period of 15-25 years is not my idea (although this is exactly the time calculations showed) this figure appears in almost all analytical articles on micro generation
      Quote: nickd55
      And you are afraid of this, because you cannot confirm anything with facts, that’s all. :)

      mdaaaaa
      baby, open your eyes and carefully study the calculations that were given to you
      If you find a mistake, for God's sake, just correct it with numbers, you're not happy with the monthly average, let's calculate a more accurate average for the year in five years
      the only problem is that people like you don’t know how to do calculations, you’ve created something on your knees and really think that it’s a masterpiece that will replace the “Volga cascade”
      and the fact is that installation costs are very simple and at today’s tariffs will not pay off very soon
      this makes sense in Germany, where the price per kW is about 20 rubles and, accordingly, the payback time of the installation drops from 15 to 3 years; you feel the difference
      but for us it is profitable only where it is not possible to lay lines or there is a lack of capacity, in other cases IT IS NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE
  13. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 30
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    would you stop being rude

    - and what is my “rudeness”? :) Can you prove it?
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 13: 26
      Quote: nickd55
      - and what is my “rudeness”? :) Can you prove it?

      so you read your statement to which was my answer
  14. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 34
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    your social norm is 250 kW, let's take a maximum of 4 per month, it comes out to 35 rubles, with the cost of the system the payback will be 1813,95 months or 192,95 years, that is, I can buy electricity for 16 years for 16 thousand from your supplier without having any hemorrhoids. pulling 350 thousand out of my pocket, which for most is simply not affordable, but it’s easy to pay 350 rubles a month, and this is at an inflated rate, I’m just too lazy to count two tariffs

    - The introduction of social norms has been postponed three times so far, but after the elections they will probably be introduced.
    Your calculations are no good for reasons that I have already stated here many times. :)

    Will I wait for you to calculate the “recoupment” of your personal car? :)
  15. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 48
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    To your calculations you need to add three or four times replacement of equipment, because the lifespan of the same batteries is two to three years. The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels. It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have. And servicing third parties will make him a hostage to these organ grinders. It will be especially funny to see him not fulfilling his obligations regarding energy supplies as provided for in the Treaties. And paying penalties and fines.

    - “You need to add three or four times replacement of equipment to your calculations” - well, yes, if you initially install (sorry) crap and then replace it with the same crap, then you can only replace it and keep doing it for 25 years. :))
    If you haven’t noticed this yet, the materials I provided here included ALL operating costs, including multiple (7-8 times!) equipment repairs (although, taking into account the accumulated real statistics, these costs are included in excess). By the way, my inverter and controllers have been working without breakdowns for the sixth year. Although no, there was one breakdown when I added panels and installed a second
    - “the resources of the same batteries are two to three years” - WHAT specific batteries and in WHAT specific operating conditions? :) For example (I REPEAT!) - in fairly harsh conditions of cyclic operation in an autonomous house, my American Trojans, which have a resource 1,5 times less than domestic armored ones, have been serving for the SIXTH YEAR without any replacement. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong? :)
    And under conditions of a buffer charge, such batteries would last twice as long (if the user’s crooked handles do not contribute to premature “death”).
    In hybrid SES (buffer charge!), even gel ones can last up to 8-10 years.
    But in an autonomous environment, YES - gel ones “die” in 2-3 years, even in capable hands (there are enough examples of this nearby).
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 13: 28
      Quote: nickd55
      In hybrid SES (buffer charge!), even gel ones can last up to 8-10 years.

      and if you have a network connected, and you fence the installation behind the floor, then you either don’t know how to count money or you’re not quite smart with your head
  16. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 50
    Quote: nickd55
    Although no, there was one breakdown when I added panels and installed a second

    - Although no, I did have one breakdown when I added panels and installed a second controller, which was burned due to accidental moisture getting on the contacts in the outer box. But this is already my joint, it cost 3 thousand.
  17. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 12: 54
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Look on the Internet what kind of disease this is - paranoia. This is from there. Non-recognition of geniuses. All are enemies and retrogrades. Idiot. With my experience as a designer of a quarter of a century, I often came across such things. At first, careful remarks infuriate him. If we had sat next to him, he would have eaten him to death. He's fed up. He won't let go, after all.

    - "Everyone is an enemy and a retrograde." - where and when exactly did I write or talk about this? :) You again
  18. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 13: 02
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Look on the Internet what kind of disease this is - paranoia. This is from there. Non-recognition of geniuses. All are enemies and retrogrades. Idiot. With my experience as a designer of a quarter of a century, I often came across such things. At first, careful remarks infuriate him. If we had sat next to him, he would have eaten him to death. He's fed up. He won't let go, after all.

    - You are again sucking some nonsense out of your own finger. :) Can you somehow confirm that I said somewhere about “enemies and retrogrades”? :)) You're not a buffoon, are you? :)
    "Idiot." - Grandfather, but this is getting personal and a direct insult. :) This is usually what happens to those who have no real arguments in the dispute. :)
    You are breaking the Forum rules.
    "At first, careful remarks infuriate him." - rabies? :)))
    Yes, you just amuse me... and I smile, looking at your impotent anger. :)
    The only thing that holds me back in your company here is that OTHER people will read all this and be able to draw their own conclusions, and not what you are palming off on them here. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 13: 30
      Quote: nickd55
      The only thing that holds me back in your company here is that OTHER people will read all this and be able to draw their own conclusions, and not what you are palming off on them here. :)

      here you are right, everyone has already drawn conclusions
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      23 December 2017 14: 48
      Quote: nickd55
      The only thing that holds me back in your company here is that OTHER people will read all this and be able to draw their own conclusions, and not what you are palming off on them here. :)

      and here are other people
      Green energy: dreams and reality
      22.12.17 06:27
      Science, technology, education
      Dmitry Talanov
      http://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/analysis/view/126935
      /
  19. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 13: 40
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels. It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have. And servicing third parties will make him a hostage to these organ grinders. It will be especially funny to see him not fulfilling his obligations regarding energy supplies as provided for in the Treaties. And paying penalties and fines.

    - yes, yes, and about any household appliance that can last for decades, everyone is lying...
    And I personally strongly recommend that you immediately throw any equipment, including your personal car, into the trash immediately after the expiration of the warranty period. :)
    Yes, yes, the other day I was already told that solar panels last a maximum of 5 years (despite the fact that mine is already in its sixth year). And I also need to put one of my friends to shame, whose Soviet-made sockets I’ve been working with for four decades, he’s lying... :)
    And here the Swiss are lying about the fact that their SES has been operating continuously for 35 years:
    http://renen.ru/solar-power-plant-in-switzerland-
    has-been-working-continuously-for-35-years/

    For reference, I am ready to take on (and I, in fact, am not the only one working) the necessary maintenance (which is required at the bare minimum in a good system) on a contractual basis, including emergency replacement of failed equipment (out of about four dozen units - three times users burned the inverters themselves and twice more damage was caused by a lightning strike when the user himself did not follow the recommendations for organizing lightning protection). There have been no other repairs at all yet (except for the replacement of the display panel, in which after 3 years the LED went out and it became not very convenient to look at the screen), the warranty period (2 years) has already expired for half of the people. The manufacturer himself literally turns the equipment I offer inside out and shows all the contents, unlike many others.
    “It will be especially funny to look at him not fulfilling his obligations for energy supplies stipulated by the Agreements. And paying penalties and fines” - WHAT are you talking about anyway? What are the “obligations” for energy supplies for home solar power plants? :)) You are delusional again...
    I CAN commit to providing the annual average of my own energy production at a specific location for a hybrid system under a number of conditions:
    - availability of a statistics collection system and my remote monitoring,
    - a service agreement with me,
    - unconditional implementation of all my recommendations for installation and operation of the system,
    - the possibility of physical access (if necessary) to SES, etc.
    :)
    1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
      dubovitskiy.1947
      0
      23 December 2017 17: 25
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      The inverter will not be able to last this long, not to mention open solar panels. It is most correct to focus on warranty periods that do not exceed three years. The service life is longer, but they provide for write-off periods when servicing on their own, which this comrade does not have. And servicing third parties will make him a hostage to these organ grinders. It will be especially funny to see him not fulfilling his obligations regarding energy supplies as provided for in the Treaties. And paying penalties and fines.

      - yes, yes, and about any household appliance that can last for decades, everyone is lying...
      And I personally strongly recommend that you immediately throw any equipment, including your personal car, into the trash immediately after the expiration of the warranty period. :)
      Yes, yes, the other day I was already told that solar panels last a maximum of 5 years (despite the fact that mine is already in its sixth year). And I also need to put one of my friends to shame, whose Soviet-made sockets I’ve been working with for four decades, he’s lying... :)
      And here the Swiss are lying about the fact that their SES has been operating continuously for 35 years:
      http://renen.ru/solar-power-plant-in-switzerland-
      has-been-working-continuously-for-35-years/

      For reference, I am ready to take on (and I, in fact, am not the only one working) the necessary maintenance (which is required at the bare minimum in a good system) on a contractual basis, including emergency replacement of failed equipment (out of about four dozen units - three times users burned the inverters themselves and twice more damage was caused by a lightning strike when the user himself did not follow the recommendations for organizing lightning protection). There have been no other repairs at all yet (except for the replacement of the display panel, in which after 3 years the LED went out and it became not very convenient to look at the screen), the warranty period (2 years) has already expired for half of the people. The manufacturer himself literally turns the equipment I offer inside out and shows all the contents, unlike many others.
      “It will be especially funny to look at him not fulfilling his obligations for energy supplies stipulated by the Agreements. And paying penalties and fines” - WHAT are you talking about anyway? What are the “obligations” for energy supplies for home solar power plants? :)) You are delusional again...
      I CAN commit to providing the annual average of my own energy production at a specific location for a hybrid system under a number of conditions:
      - availability of a statistics collection system and my remote monitoring,
      - a service agreement with me,
      - unconditional implementation of all my recommendations for installation and operation of the system,
      - the possibility of physical access (if necessary) to SES, etc.
      :)

      They work for 35 years. So what? In the USSR, metalworking machines worked for 50 years. Is this a credit? No. This is due to poverty. Climb under the trash and restore what is broken. Do not have the right to write off and replace with new ones. This is hard labor, not work.
      Demand that suppliers (everyone down the chain, right down to a relay or a tricky nail) continue to produce equipment like spare parts that has been out of production for 20 years. Okay, here in the USSR. We had one boss over everyone. If he orders, he will carry it out. At our factory, we have been struggling with the production of such crap for decades. How can a private owner be forced to keep the materials, equipment, and tools needed to make this rubbish? Do you understand what you are writing about? And then, what TV do you prefer - modern plasma or one released 35 years ago? Half-colored, weighing a hundredweight and eating half a kilowatt? Let's return to Soviet machines. If only I knew what a headache the chief accountant of the plant has with these machines. Depreciation deductions cannot be avoided, and the residual price for the machine is already with a minus sign. Conditionally write off, leaving it in the workshop? 5 years in prison for the chief accountant and director.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
        Vasilenko Vladimir
        0
        23 December 2017 17: 37
        Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
        They work for 35 years. So what? In the USSR, metalworking machines worked for 50 years. Is this a credit? No. This is due to poverty.

        Here again I disagree, this is not due to poverty, but normal practice, only the iPhone is changed every year
        1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
          dubovitskiy.1947
          0
          23 December 2017 17: 52
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
          They work for 35 years. So what? In the USSR, metalworking machines worked for 50 years. Is this a credit? No. This is due to poverty.

          Here again I disagree, this is not due to poverty, but normal practice, only the iPhone is changed every year

          There is no need to talk about what you are not good at. Old equipment, and even with such output, has neither accuracy nor productivity. It does not serve as an incentive for the younger generation to move to the workshop; they are more interested in places where new pieces of hardware appear frequently. Old equipment, in addition, is a hindrance to the acquisition of modern equipment, including machining centers and robots. The states completely changed the machine park in 5-8 years. And we achieved an increase in quality, productivity and interest in working on advanced machines among young people. In Japan at that time, 80% of the robotic complexes operating AROUND THE WORLD worked.
          You need to judge things by thoroughly studying the problem.
  20. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 13: 48
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    As for 2-3 years, you went too far; the manufacturer gives much more, but the fact that the service life is approximately equal to the payback period is a fact, that is, as soon as you have paid off for a year or three, many things need to be replaced with new ones
    - the battery manufacturer very often writes in large print - “UP TO 10-12 YEARS”, and then only under a microscope can you read the important addition “in buffer mode”. :)
    In general, when it comes to batteries, it is better to look at the technical characteristics and mode of future operation, and not at the manufacturer’s promises.
    By the way, serious battery manufacturers do not make such promises in their technical documentation at all. This is basically what the sellers are already adding. :)
    1. dubovitskiy.1947 Rank
      dubovitskiy.1947
      0
      23 December 2017 17: 05
      nickd55

      By the way, serious battery manufacturers do not make such promises in their technical documentation at all. This is basically what the sellers are already adding. :)


      Well, in my opinion, they write. Serious.
      And they even seriously warn that without a device that monitors the health of EACH battery in the battery, they cannot be connected.
      Search, find and read carefully. My product, of which I was the leader, had a warranty period of 11,5 years and a service life of 1000 hours.
      Based on this, it should have been replaced either after the warranty period or service life expired.
  21. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 13: 49
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    this is extremely untrue, especially for industrial equipment, warranty, service life are completely different things

    - You won’t believe it - I completely agree with you! :)
  22. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 21: 21
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: nickd55
    You don’t even know that the Dominator type inverter ALREADY has remote control capabilities, and the hybrid version can easily be equipped with it. :)
    The fact that this hardware has a control input does not mean that without the appropriate equipment it is ready to work on the network. Your computer has a network card, perhaps even Wi-Fi. But this does not mean at all that it can be controlled from a remote device located tens of kilometers away. How to get him into the network if you don’t have a communication channel with energy workers. And it is not at all necessary that they do not use their own, isolated from the Internet. In the USSR in the 70s, a communication and telecontrol system operated through high-voltage power line wires. It is possible that even now. Figure it out.
    Well, you're a dumbass.

    - You are again violating the rules of the Forum, getting personal and trying to insult me.
    “But this does not mean at all that it can be controlled from a remote device located tens of kilometers away.” - any inverter of the specified Russian manufacturer can be controlled from anywhere in the world (by connecting the Malina PAK to it), where there is access to the Internet, and the Dominator version already has everything necessary for this.
    Learn the materiel, grandpa. :)

    In any case, the coordination of any additional protocols (if this is required at all!) does not pose any serious technical problem. And talking about this now as a problem is the lot of grandfathers who are chronically behind events.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      +1
      23 December 2017 22: 07
      Quote: nickd55
      And talking about this now as a problem is the lot of grandfathers who are chronically behind events.

      baby, apparently you have never signed a single agreement in your life
  23. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 21: 40
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    If the technical documentation indicates a service life of 10 years, then it charges depreciation at 10% per year. If the service life is 5 years, then = 20%. And then everything will come together. Bukh will not sign the write-off act ahead of schedule if the costs are not attributed to the culprit. That's how this kitchen works.

    - OPS, it turns out you’ve already missed a lot here too... :)
    In accordance with Government Decree No. 600, a list of energy-efficient equipment (which includes solar power plants, wind generators and much more) has long been defined, according to which an enterprise can carry out ACCELERATED depreciation and other tax benefits. :) Maybe it would be better for you to go fishing more often or play some chess?
    Learn the materiel, please:
    http://ivo.garant.ru/#/document/10900200/paragrap
    h/1965:0
    1. dubovitsckij.viktor Rank
      dubovitsckij.viktor
      +1
      23 December 2017 23: 08
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      If the technical documentation indicates a service life of 10 years, then it charges depreciation at 10% per year. If the service life is 5 years, then = 20%. And then everything will come together. Bukh will not sign the write-off act ahead of schedule if the costs are not attributed to the culprit. That's how this kitchen works.

      - OPS, it turns out you’ve already missed a lot here too... :)
      In accordance with Government Decree No. 600, a list of energy-efficient equipment (which includes solar power plants, wind generators and much more) has long been defined, according to which an enterprise can carry out ACCELERATED depreciation and other tax benefits. :) Maybe it would be better for you to go fishing more often or play some chess?
      Learn the materiel, please:
      http://ivo.garant.ru/#/document/10900200/paragrap
      h/1965:0

      Increasing depreciation per year increases costs and makes the job less competitive. You don't understand shit about these things.




      Show me where your link says about reversible meters and microgeneration?
  24. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 23: 52
    Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
    Increasing depreciation per year increases costs and makes the job less competitive. You don't understand shit about these things.

    - wow, grandpa is also an accountant? :)
    Learn the materiel, please (I repeat again):
    http://vesbiz.ru/buxuchet/uskorit-amortizaciyu.ht
    ml
    http://buh-spravka.ru/buhgalterskij-uchet/amortiz
    aciya-iznos-os/koehfficient-uskorennoj-amortizaci
    i.html
    But it turns out that our Government does not even suspect that it is increasing taxes with benefits. :)
    And once again I ask you not to “poke” me.
  25. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    23 December 2017 23: 57
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    nickd55

    By the way, serious battery manufacturers do not make such promises in their technical documentation at all. This is basically what the sellers are already adding. :)


    Well, in my opinion, they write. Serious.
    And they even seriously warn that without a device that monitors the health of EACH battery in the battery, they cannot be connected.
    Search, find and read carefully. My product, of which I was the leader, had a warranty period of 11,5 years and a service life of 1000 hours.
    Based on this, it should have been replaced either after the warranty period or service life expired.


    You are a strange “specialist”.
    The warranty period is NOT EQUAL to the battery life. :) And the latter is determined (APPROXIMATELY!) from tables with battery operating parameters, which indicate temperature, average discharge depth and the estimated number of charge-discharge cycles. :)
  26. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 00
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    And talking about this now as a problem is the lot of grandfathers who are chronically behind events.

    baby, apparently you have never signed a single agreement in your life

    - another evil grandfather? :)
    I understand... nerves and hard life with goats... happen. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 08: 21
      Do you know how to answer specific questions or are you simply afraid to show your inadequacy?!
  27. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 09
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    They work for 35 years. So what? In the USSR, metalworking machines worked for 50 years. Is this a credit? No. This is due to poverty.

    Here again I disagree, this is not due to poverty, but normal practice, only the iPhone is changed every year

    There is no need to talk about what you are not good at. Old equipment, and even with such output, has neither accuracy nor productivity. It does not serve as an incentive for the younger generation to move to the workshop; they are more interested in places where new pieces of hardware appear frequently. Old equipment, in addition, is a hindrance to the acquisition of modern equipment, including machining centers and robots. The states completely changed the machine park in 5-8 years. And we achieved an increase in quality, productivity and interest in working on advanced machines among young people. In Japan at that time, 80% of the robotic complexes operating AROUND THE WORLD worked.
    You need to judge things by thoroughly studying the problem.

    :))) Bravo, accountant!
    And this is written by the same cool specialist who just wrote here that accelerated depreciation leads to higher taxes. :)
    Let me remind you of your words:
    "Increasing depreciation per year increases costs and makes the job less competitive. You don't know shit about these things."

    And now (attention) what experts write about this (I already gave the link):
    "Conclusion
    The application of accelerated depreciation to objects of tangible capital allows you to get rid of the ballast that does not allow the enterprise to develop at an accelerated pace. Structures and machines that have completely expired and are used in harsh operating conditions must be replaced with new, more advanced material objects.
    Read more http://vesbiz.ru/buxuchet/uskorit-amortizaciyu.ht
    ml
  28. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 11
    Quote: nickd55
    subject to replacement with new, more advanced material objects.

    and further in the same place:
    “Thanks to the use of accelerated depreciation, such a replacement can be carried out in a much shorter time, thereby allowing for the abandonment of the use of various material objects produced in the last century, and which are largely outdated both physically and morally.”

    Read more http://vesbiz.ru/buxuchet/uskorit-amortizaciyu.ht
    ml

    How so, specialist? :) Don't be in such a hurry, just think first, and only then write something. :)
  29. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 15
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    They work for 35 years. So what? In the USSR, metalworking machines worked for 50 years. Is this a credit? No. This is due to poverty.

    - Is it the SES that has been operating in Switzerland because of poverty for 35 years? :))) That's five points! You have outdone yourself, congratulations! :)
  30. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 26
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    How can a private owner be forced to keep the materials, equipment, and tools needed to make this rubbish? Do you understand what you are writing about? And then, what TV do you prefer - modern plasma or one released 35 years ago? Half-colored, weighing a hundredweight and eating half a kilowatt?

    - and again - LEARN THE MATCHING PART, grandfather... :)
    http://invertor.ru/postgarant.html
    A normal manufacturer provides support for their products throughout their entire service life.
    The classic low-frequency technology used in high-quality inverters has not undergone fundamental changes for about a hundred years, and the self-consumption of a modern inverter is in the range of 10-20 watts.
    And, by the way, I do NOT prefer plasma and do not recommend it to others, since it consumes much more than an LED TV. :)
  31. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 30
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    The only thing that holds me back in your company here is that OTHER people will read all this and be able to draw their own conclusions, and not what you are palming off on them here. :)

    and here are other people
    Green energy: dreams and reality
    22.12.17 06:27
    Science, technology, education
    Dmitry Talanov
    http://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/analysis/view/126935
    /

    - so what? I read this yesterday. There is a lot that is reasonable, but there is a little that is controversial. But, most importantly, very little is related to the topic of one’s own MICROGENERATION. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 08: 14
      this relates to the topic of feasibility study
  32. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 33
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    In hybrid SES (buffer charge!), even gel ones can last up to 8-10 years.

    and if you have a network connected, and you fence the installation behind the floor, then you either don’t know how to count money or you’re not quite smart with your head

    - I REPEAT - depending on where and why.
    In some places this may be true, but for the southern regions of the country, anyone who “knows how” to count money the way you do here is already “out of their depth.” :))
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 08: 13
      Quote: nickd55
      In some places this may be true, but for the southern regions of the country it is already

      if the payback period is 16 years, then even now it is not profitable
  33. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 44
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    slander in what?!!!! Next, “adult” man, they show you the inconsistency of your reasoning in numbers, but like most enthusiastic amateurs, you aggressively defend, defend your love and affection without delving into any arguments, the payback period is 15-25 years, this is not mine just a mere notion (although calculations showed exactly this time), this figure appears in almost all analytical articles on micro generation Quote: nickd55 And you are afraid of this, because you cannot confirm anything with facts, that’s all. :) yeah baby, open your eyes and carefully study the calculations that were given to you, you will find a mistake, for God’s sake, just correct it with numbers, you’re not satisfied with the average for the month, let’s calculate a more accurate average for the year in five, the only problem is that people like you don’t know how to do calculations, you’re on your knees they built something there and you really think that this is a masterpiece that will replace the “Volga cascade” and the fact is that the installation costs are very simple at today’s tariffs; it won’t pay off very soon; in Germany it makes sense, there the price per kW is about 20 rubles and, accordingly, the payback time for the installation drops from 15 up to 3 years you can feel the difference, with us it is profitable only where there is no possibility to lay lines or there is a lack of capacity, in other cases IT IS NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE

    - well, show me at least one “analytical report” on MICROGENERATION. I'm all in anticipation. :)
    Your crooked calculations are complete nonsense!
    And talking about BENEFIT and payback period in relation to microgeneration is bullshit. :) The same goes for calculating the benefits and payback period of a personal car or washing machine. :)
    By the way, why haven’t you yet presented here a calculation of the payback of a personal car? So you don’t know how to count? :)

    Write me your mailbox in a personal message, I will send there examples of calculating system options with an economic justification, it is impossible to insert tables here. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 08: 12
      Quote: nickd55
      Your crooked calculations are complete nonsense!

      let’s say I agree, well, refute them, but the problem is that the numbers need to be refuted with numbers, indicate where in my calculations there is an inaccuracy or error, show yours
      only you don’t do this for a very simple reason, the numbers show everything at once and you, puffing out your cheeks, sell bullshit to people, the majority cannot make a calculation and believe convincing managers who, without knowing a damn thing, repeat stupidity by rote, but stupidity that benefits them

      p/s/ in your words, either you prove that my calculation is nonsense or you are a babble, but post it here about the box, you accused me of stupidity publicly and want to present evidence of this behind the scenes - WILL NOT GO
  34. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 00: 55
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    - this is the ratio between the obtained production results - products and services, on the one hand, and the costs of labor and means of production - on the other, payback without average parameters, you will never calculate the calculation, this is exactly how it is done. By the way, what do you do when you are free from advertising of individual installations?!

    - COMPLETELY CORRECT, the estimated economic efficiency of any system is the ratio between ALL costs during the planned service life to the planned result for this period (in relation to SES, the result is expressed in the number of kWh). And if we divide the first by the second, we will ultimately get the estimated cost of kWh, which will show the effectiveness of the designed system in combination with other possible advantages (elimination of costs for operating an emergency gas generator, freeing up time, protection against losses during accidents, etc.) .P.).
    This parameter should be the key when assessing the feasibility of investments in a given case.
    I am involved in the construction of energy-efficient private houses, mountain tourism and “silent hunting”. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 08: 07
      Quote: nickd55
      And if we divide the first by the second, then in the end we get the estimated cost of kWh

      Well, divide and show the resulting figure wink
      Why don’t you give calculations again?!
  35. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 01: 06
    Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
    Show me where your link says about reversible meters and microgeneration?

    - Grandfather, yesterday at 19.37 I gave links to two primary sources in which this is directly written, repeat? :)
    Quote:
    "- installation of double-sided electrical energy metering devices, providing separate hourly metering, and automation is carried out at the expense of the applicant;"
    Source:
    http://government.ru/orders/selection/401/26467/
    Quote:
    "introducing the obligation of the applicant to ensure separate hourly accounting of the volumes of electrical energy transferred to the electrical network and received from the electrical network;" - clause 2.1. ACTION PLAN to stimulate the development of generating facilities based on renewable energy sources with an installed capacity of up to 15 kW (hereinafter referred to as RES microgeneration).
    Source:
    http://government.ru/news/28559/
    http://static.government.ru/media/files/D7T1wAHJ0
    E8vEWst5MYzr5DOnhHFA3To.pdf

    Learn materiel! :)
  36. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 01: 32
    Quote: nickd55
    and here are other peopleGreen energy: dreams and reality22.12.17 06:27Science, technology, educationDmitry Talanovhttp://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/analysis/view
    final match.

    - and here are the third people:
    http://renen.ru/on-the-development-of-renewable-e
    nergy-in-russia-until-2030/
    And I myself am somewhere in the middle between everyone. :)

    By the way, on the topic of batteries, I can report that Toshiba has been mass-producing lithium-titanate batteries with fantastic parameters for a couple of years now, and they will soon appear in Russia.
    Up to 15000 thousand cycles, the ability to charge and discharge down to minus 30, and charge/discharge currents up to 10C - that's cool!
    There is also a manufacturer of such batteries in Moscow, but there is no mass production there yet and no practical results confirmed.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      24 December 2017 07: 40
      Yes, the flag is in your hands, you cannot refute the economic failure of the project
      it doesn’t matter whether the batteries last 10 years or 20, if the payback for the project itself is 16 years or more, then it is NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE
      1. dubovitsckij.viktor Rank
        dubovitsckij.viktor
        +1
        24 December 2017 17: 29
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Yes, the flag is in your hands, you cannot refute the economic failure of the project
        it doesn’t matter whether the batteries last 10 years or 20, if the payback for the project itself is 16 years or more, then it is NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE

        A person is best characterized not by desires, but by actions. Making all this stuff yourself, when it was expensive to carry out the state line, is great. But then neighbors, poles and wires appeared. And this is not stubbornness that does not allow you to connect to a ready line, but something else. Apparently, the neighbors demand to invest their share in the work done. However, I could be wrong.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
          Vasilenko Vladimir
          0
          25 December 2017 08: 38
          Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
          Making all this stuff yourself, when it was expensive to carry out the state line, is great.

          you can take a pick and break the wall, or you can do it with your head, the smart one will take the pick
          We also had problems with the light, sometimes the voltage was 110 volts, we didn’t talk nonsense, we wrote letters competently and forced the electricians to run a separate line into the village and install a new transformer and it didn’t cost us a penny

          people stupidly sell expensive toys to people using some theory behind it
  37. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 20: 48
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    And if we divide the first by the second, then in the end we get the estimated cost of kWh

    Well, divide and show the resulting figure wink
    Why don’t you give calculations again?!

    - Yesterday I asked you via PM to tell me the mailbox, since there is, in principle, no possibility of placing tables here. :) And until now I have not received anything from you.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      25 December 2017 08: 35
      and you don’t get to mess up the box, I have no desire, the dispute is public, so post it for everyone to see, and if you don’t have enough brains to post it all in the “cloud,” then sit quietly and don’t be smart
  38. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 20: 51
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Do you know how to answer specific questions or are you simply afraid to show your inadequacy?!

    - I will answer all specific questions, and when will you show the calculation of the payback of your personal car? I've already asked seven times. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      25 December 2017 08: 34
      Quote: nickd55
      When will you show the calculation of the payback of your personal car? I've already asked seven times. :)

      you want a direct answer to your extremely stupid question
      I already wrote uh
      then it’s calculated in the same way, the benefits, including economical ones, are calculated; I don’t see the point in wasting time to prove your complete economic illiteracy
      I will need to collect a lot of data, the cost of private transportation, the cost of manually carrying goods, the cost of medicines, the cost of man hours
      I already wrote, you are an ordinary self-taught amateur who imagines himself to be an unrecognized genius
  39. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 20: 55
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Yes, the flag is in your hands, you cannot refute the economic failure of the project
    it doesn’t matter whether the batteries last 10 years or 20, if the payback for the project itself is 16 years or more, then it is NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE

    - I have already written here many times about where and under what conditions the use of SES can be very economically justified. :) It’s impossible to post tables with calculations here (you can try it yourself), and you don’t provide your box. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      25 December 2017 08: 29
      Quote: nickd55
      It’s impossible to post tables with calculations here (you can try it yourself), and you don’t give me your box. :)

      it’s possible to place everything and there’s no need for tables; total costs and average consumption are all you need; it’s a shame they pulled it out from under you and poked your nose into your economic illiteracy
      If you want to refute it, for God’s sake, give the cost of kWh of your unit
  40. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 20: 56
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Yes, the flag is in your hands, you cannot refute the economic failure of the project
    it doesn’t matter whether the batteries last 10 years or 20, if the payback for the project itself is 16 years or more, then it is NOT ECONOMICALLY PROFITABLE

    - by the way, you cannot prove the economic benefit of your personal car - is that right? :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      25 December 2017 08: 22
      Quote: nickd55
      You cannot prove the economic benefit of your personal car - can you? :)

      I'm sorry, you're just running into trouble, but it's not a flattering review so that later you can scare me with the rules of the forum
      calculated, well, only if it’s not an item of show-off or luxury

      Another question is that it takes longer, there are more introductory characteristics such as time costs, etc.
  41. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 21: 13
    Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
    And this is not stubbornness that does not allow you to connect to a ready line, but something else. Apparently, the neighbors demand to invest their share in the work done. However, I could be wrong.

    - Yes, everything is as usual. :) You don’t just make a mistake, but you end up again with your finger, I won’t tell you where. :)
    Regarding the first, I already wrote an answer here, but you persistently again and again pull out some new nonsense. :)
    I feel like I need to write about the same thing three times at once.
    REPEAT:
    - as the initiator of the topic of microgeneration, I am routinely awaiting the necessary decisions of the Government, which will outline all the regulations for actions, a list of certified bidirectional meters and all the responsibilities of each party. And I will convert my system into a hybrid one only when everything is finally decided. What is the point of buying a meter now, which I will then simply have to throw away, and now change the inverter to a hybrid one?
    As for the partial electrification of our field, this is the merit of the head of the fuel and energy complex committee of the regional Legislative Assembly, to whom the neighbors miraculously broke through and only after his personal intervention the process began.
    Literally before the eyes of my neighbor, local power engineers were “ripped out” according to the old Russian tradition with all the attributes and phraseological turns of the mighty Russian language required by the situation, after which, on New Year’s Eve, December 30 (!!!) both the means and the strength were found to begin work . :)
    A “kind” word and a “Colt” sometimes work New Year’s miracles. :)
    No one paid anyone a penny, so no one collects anything.
  42. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    24 December 2017 22: 11
    Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
    While you're going crazy behind your fence, that's your business, you can generally work with bare wires twisted into scrolls. But when you go out the gate, then be kind, know and be able. Or do you think that with their equipment they will allow you to calmly kill your neighbors and more? Or do you think that your energy, which burned down the neighbor’s refrigerator, will not regurgitate you in a good way?

    - I will repeat for the fifth time on this issue - everything was invented a long time ago, you are chronically behind events. :))
    1. dubovitsckij.viktor Rank
      dubovitsckij.viktor
      +1
      26 December 2017 16: 31
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitsckij.viktor
      While you're going crazy behind your fence, that's your business, you can generally work with bare wires twisted into scrolls. But when you go out the gate, then be kind, know and be able. Or do you think that with their equipment they will allow you to calmly kill your neighbors and more? Or do you think that your energy, which burned down the neighbor’s refrigerator, will not regurgitate you in a good way?

      - I will repeat for the fifth time on this issue - everything was invented a long time ago, you are chronically behind events. :))

      So how will you be different from a generating station if you do the same thing? Power? But a power of 2 Watts quite reliably kills a person. In the history of electrical engineering, there was a case when a voltage of 9 volts ended a human life.
      So, THEY are required to certify their equipment and pass it to the admission group, but you are not?
      Don’t you know that individually iron complies with GOST requirements for energy quality, but in combination they can categorically violate this compliance. and only when correctly calculated, in the right proportions, it works both efficiently and reliably for a long time. Apparently you don't know.
  43. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    26 December 2017 13: 55
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    You cannot prove the economic benefit of your personal car - can you? :)

    I'm sorry, you're just running into trouble, but it's not a flattering review so that later you can scare me with the rules of the forum
    calculated, well, only if it’s not an item of show-off or luxury

    Another question is that it takes longer, there are more introductory characteristics such as time costs, etc.


    - I’m sorry, but a personal car is one continuous expense, and in principle there can be no “recoupment” in it, no matter how much you try to calculate something there. :) It is for this reason that you will not be able to make such calculations. Delivering a body from point A to point B by bus is much cheaper, by bicycle - even cheaper, and on foot - almost free (except for the calories that a person consumed to move his legs). :)
    The only advantages of a personal car (and other household appliances!) are freedom and ease of movement, as well as saving time - and EVERYTHING! :)
    Home SES is a household device from the same area, which is also not intended to make a profit. :)
    It provides an increase in the degree of freedom and independence from network failures, saves current consumption from the network, saves the cost of operating an emergency gas generator, and also saves time due to the absence of the need to “dance with a tambourine” around the gas generator or run around the house with a flashlight. :)
    Everything else (system parameters and even the very feasibility of its use) is determined by local conditions. If a kWh from an outlet costs significantly more than what can be produced using a home SES, if the accident rate in the network is low and short-lived, then there is no point in installing such a SES.
    But if even the accident rate alone goes beyond reasonable limits, then it may make sense to use a similar system of some capacity in any place.
    And in the southern regions of the country, almost everywhere there is already a reason to use home SES.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      26 December 2017 15: 51
      Quote: nickd55
      - I’m sorry, but a personal car is one continuous expense, and in principle there can be no “recoupment” in it, no matter how much you try to calculate something there. :)

      damn....
      you are completely economically illiterate
      I already wrote if a car is a means of transportation and not a show-off or luxury pays off

      I go about 10 times a month to buy animal feed, groceries, etc.
      Let's say I don't have a car, there are two options
      first, I take a cart and trudge 10-30 km, load it up and trudge back, in this case the costs will be n number of person hours with the average cost of a person hour being about 700 rubles, plus depreciation of shoes and clothes
      second option, I hire transport and go shopping in this situation, the costs will be the cost of hiring plus the cost of the nth number of person hours, since transport will not be available when I need it, but when it is free

      if I drive my own car the cost will be the cost of fuel plus depreciation

      the difference between these values ​​will be an economic gain or loss
      if this is a benefit, then dividing the cost of your own car by this amount will give you the payback time
      this is very primitive, in reality there will still be a variable, but for you it will be fine
    2. The comment was deleted.
  44. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    26 December 2017 16: 16
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Have you even studied somewhere?!!!You are so illiterate that you are amazed. Who told you that walking is free?!!!!You will go barefoot?!!!You will not waste extra time. Are you familiar with the concept of a man's clock?

    - please wipe away the drool and wipe the screen of your monitor. :)
    I wrote to you in Russian - “almost free”, since you will eat, dress and put on shoes regardless of whether you have a personal car or whether you walk exclusively or take a bus.
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      26 December 2017 17: 20
      Quote: nickd55
      I wrote to you in Russian - “almost free”, since you will be able to eat, dress and put on shoes regardless of whether you have a personal car

      Once again, for those who are in a tank, the wear and tear on your shoes will be different even if you walk or drive a car, your calorie expenditure will be different, the time it takes to get your butt from point A to point B will be different, and that’s all MONEY

      study the basics of economics again, and then become smart
  45. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    26 December 2017 16: 18
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Why create hemorrhoids?!!!

    - So I’m telling you - why create hemorrhoids with a car, if it’s easier to walk or go to work by bus? :)
    And you could wash your pants with your hands; physical labor is good for your health. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      26 December 2017 17: 17
      Quote: nickd55
      And you could wash your pants with your hands; physical labor is good for your health. :)

      in order to wash with pens you must incur financial costs
  46. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    26 December 2017 16: 21
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    they are impossibly stupid in matters of economics, I am amazed at people who, I don’t know the topic, start arguing and even prove something, I will never allow myself to get involved in a dispute over the performance characteristics of types of weapons, so don’t meddle in and don’t anger people again I repeat, in matters of economics, you are not even an amateur, you are a complete layman

    - You are violating the rules of the Forum with pathetic attempts to get personal and insult me. :)
    When the arguments end, some people's rotten insides come out. :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      26 December 2017 17: 17
      Quote: nickd55
      You are violating the rules of the Forum with your pathetic attempts to get personal and insult me. :)

      you're tired of the phrase about violating forum rules, no one is insulting you
      Perhaps you have golden hands and you are an excellent mechanic, but in economics you are really illiterate and this is not an insult, but a statement of fact
      Quote: nickd55
      When the arguments end, some people's rotten insides come out. :)

      Well, yes, the earth is flat, otherwise everyone would fall off it, this is YOUR argument
      you don't know basic things
  47. nickd55 Rank
    nickd55
    0
    26 December 2017 16: 42
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    are impossibly stupid in matters of economics

    - it’s funny to read how “great economists” take the cost of a home SES and simply stupidly divide it by the current tariff from the outlet. :)) Like - what’s there to think about? :)
    And nothing that you have ALREADY spent before and will still spend some money on providing yourself with network electricity?
    But it’s okay that the main funds in the form of some kind of thermal power plant or hydroelectric power station, or nuclear power plant and the entire infrastructure have ALREADY been spent once (very often - back in the USSR) and now someone will have to spend an ever-increasing amount on updating generators money?
    Is it okay that the Government is now racking its brains at whose expense will it update these generators, which in the next 5-10 years should be taken out of service due to complete wear and tear?
    For this very reason, they are coming up with all sorts of DPM mechanisms that will add a burden to current tariffs and will inevitably increase this burden, since the volume of renovation in the coming years should be very large - the legacy of the USSR is ending.
    Is it okay that a home SES can solve SEVERAL important problems at once (which I have already written about here many times)?
    Is it okay that it ALSO can save time and money?
    Is it okay that by investing once, taking into account ALL operating costs, you can ensure for many years to come the constant cost of solar kWh and guaranteed own electricity supply (in the planned useful volume!), in no way dependent on rising tariffs?
    And after this you will teach me economics and mathematics? :)
    Better go to your goats and compare warm with soft. :)

    I will repeat for the last time - a home SES is a household device, and not a means for making a profit!
    Selavi... :)
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir Rank
      Vasilenko Vladimir
      0
      26 December 2017 17: 14
      Quote: nickd55
      - it’s funny to read how “great economists” take the cost of a home SES and simply stupidly divide it by the current tariff from the outlet. :)) Like - what’s there to think about? :

      miracle, do you really think that I will waste time on a full feasibility study
      Quote: nickd55
      Is it okay that the Government is now racking its brains at whose expense will it update these generators, which in the next 5-10 years should be taken out of service due to complete wear and tear?

      Tariffs include depreciation and fleet renewal
      Quote: nickd55
      Is it okay that by investing once, taking into account ALL operating costs, you can ensure for many years to come the constant cost of solar kWh and guaranteed own electricity supply (in the planned useful volume!), in no way dependent on rising tariffs?

      useless, well, you can’t explain to a 1st grader what a sine is if he doesn’t know what division and a triangle are
      Quote: nickd55
      And after this you will teach me economics and mathematics? :)
      Better go to your goats and compare warm with soft. :)
      I will repeat for the last time - a home SES is a household device, and not a means for making a profit!

      fool household devices make your life easier by reducing your costs hi
  48. rtutaloe
    rtutaloe
    0
    April 9 2018 15: 59
    Everything we take out of the ground has, or often has, increased radioactivity. Modern ecologists are fanning too much panic about this. Even mineral water has radioactivity, and some are even specifically used to treat diseases.
    http://chem21.info/info/1453029/

       "The content of radium, uranium and thorium in natural waters is much less and on average is about 1-10 10 kg of radium, 0,6 - 8 10 kg of uranium and 0,5 10 kg of thorium per m. Natural waters also contain radioactive dissolved in them gas - radon. Radioactive waters are used for medicinal purposes - mineral-radioactive waters (Tskaltubo, Pyatigorsk, Borjomi, Izhevsk, etc.) are used for drinking and bathing."

    At the same time, different sources use different units of measurement of radioactivity, which does not give the average person the opportunity to compare the real danger with the imaginary one.

    Wind generators, in turn, carry significant magnetic radiation and even interfere with mobile communication frequencies. And solar panels fry birds and take up huge areas of usable land compared to traditional power plants. Hydroelectric power plants kill fish, not to mention flood land. Which of these is more harmful to nature and humans?

    As for coal, the main radionuclides settle into the ash during the combustion process. But no one has ever died from a bucket of bugs in the yard. ))) And modern coal boilers for power plants capture almost everything except water and gases such as CO and CO2. Having lived in a coal region all my life, I am sure that this whole danger is grossly exaggerated.