Green revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word

654
Green revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word


Nobody tried to put together the numbers and statistics on the European "alternative" energy? Recommend. Very fascinating sight. After half an hour of enthusiastic digging on the Internet, I realized: everything that is written about the energy alternative is a lie. And a lie from the first to the last word.



I propose to calculate the cost of "green" electricity produced in Europe. To calculate and make sure that NEVER, or under any circumstances, it can compare with the traditional one, and that everything that is written about it today is a deception from the first to the last word.

I will make a reservation right away: you cannot indiscriminately reject any idea Wind generation with the confluence of certain circumstances can be economically beneficial. She has even a very local, but future. True, in Europe it is just the last thing. In general, it is very likely that all this beautiful tale of green energy arose only as a result of the energy war being waged by Washington against the USSR for more than a decade. And the Europeans themselves, who believed in this fairy tale, suffer. Tale from the first to the last word.

Smooth was on paper

As we have seen past materialThe most effective and most promising form of "green" electric power is wind power. The remaining methods of producing electricity are much more expensive, and therefore lower, so as not to waste time, we will not consider them.

By the way, you did not pay attention, how do supporters of the “green energy industry” explain their advantages? I took an interest and found out that 80-90% of the numbers in the articles have been moving for the second decade from material to material, and nobody really cares that these data are outdated for a long time, and some are simply fictitious. On the other hand, the Greens talk a lot about their achievements. And every year new figures come out, showing how quickly the “green energy” is catching up with the traditionalists. And they really do not like to go into details. Why? But just this I understood only after I plunged into them myself and found out that the king was naked. And he will be naked all the time, no matter how developed technical progress.

For example, in recent publications, the figure of the cost of commissioning 1 kW of installed power for wind generation in the amount of approximately US $ 1000 appears everywhere. The parameter is very important, because the final figure of the cost of electricity produced by “windmills” largely depends on it.

But, as the documentation of real projects shows, this is the cost of only one turbine. It is all the same if we estimated the cost of nuclear power plants based on the cost of the reactor plus the turbine hall. But these are albeit important, but far from complete figures.

At the same time, this figure is not applicable to all equipment, but only to the weakest segment (turbine power is of the order of 100 kW). But such generators themselves are inefficient due to their structural limitations, the most powerful ones are already much more expensive. For example, the cost of building one of the most powerful modern wind turbines Enercon E-126 with a power of 7,58 MW is 11 million euros. And this is today 1,5-1,7 thousand dollars (depending on the cross exchange rate of currencies). Plus you need more money to connect it to the power grid.

In this case, we are still considering options for land wind farms. But in Europe it is very difficult to find a place so that on the one hand it is cheap to build, and on the other - that sufficient winds blow there. That is why now the main wind farm projects are being built at sea. But completely different numbers are already working here.



An example of the latest projects. The most powerful offshore wind farm (300 MW) Thanet Wind Farm, Kent (England). Cost - 1,4 billion dollars, or 4,67 thousand dollars per 1 kW of installed capacity.

Agree that there is a difference between 1,0 thousand. $ And 4,67 thousand. $.

But even if we consider the cheapest American WECs, we still will not get the stated figure. According to According to for 2016 a year, the average unit capital cost in the USA for 1 kW of installed capacity for this type of station was US $ 1590 with the average cost of the turbines themselves even slightly lower than US $ NNXX. Moreover, the analysis of investment projects on 1000 year shows that no reduction of this figure this year is foreseen !!!

Why not foreseen? About this below, but for now let's think about this.

It is not enough to build a station. Ultimately, it can be built and not work a single day. In this case, we get a net loss, no matter how much it costs us. In the energy sector there is such a parameter as the utilization factor of the installed power (ICUM). Moreover, unlike the efficiency, it can be higher than one, that is, 100%. For example, in modern nuclear power plants today it averages about 75-80%. But this is in the context of the year, and if the unit did not stop for a month for repairs, the capacity factor of it may be 105% and even slightly higher.



Due to what? Just initially the unit was designed for some TVELs. But technology does not stand still not only in wind power. But also for nuclear scientists. New assemblies are being developed, which have improved characteristics and make it possible to obtain a greater amount of heat in the same reactor and, therefore, electricity. That is why the power plant utilization capacity of NPPs today sometimes reaches 95-98% during the fuel session, even taking into account the necessary technological downtime associated with the replacement of part of the fuel and spare parts that have worked their life. In general, the figure is consistently higher than 80% in the industry as a whole is attainable today, and this is not the limit.

And what do we have with the capacity factor for wind generation? The most efficient windmills are in America. For example, in the USA, this parameter rarely drops below 25%. Now China has 15%. AT Germany, as shown by long-term measurements (from 2002 of the year), from 15 to 20% in total. And there has not yet been any progress.



And this is just explainable. In terms of wind generation, the USA has some of the best conditions in the world. There are many places where constant and strong winds blow. China and Germany have fewer of them. And it is also obvious that the farther, the less places will remain with similar conditions. Here you can either put up with the constant fall of the capacity factor and compensate for its height of raising the turbine, or build at sea, which, as we saw above, has its drawbacks. The price of such a power plant is multiplying, as well as maintenance.

So at the expense of what today we are seeing a decrease in the cost of electricity production at wind farms? Everything is very simple. There is no technical secret or know-how here. The theory was developed in 1950-x, and it says that the efficiency of such units can be increased by raising them as high as possible and increasing the size of the bearing blades.

Actually, that is why today all the developers of “wind turbines” have chased the power of the generators. If even 10 years ago, turbines with a power of 100-300 kW were mounted with might and main, today we already have megawatts. They are large, but, despite the high cost, more cost-effective than low-power units.

But such growth cannot be infinite. Even today, the most powerful generators are 120 meter towers with a height of the upper edge of the blades up to 180 meters.



It is impossible to increase these dimensions to infinity, as it is impossible to increase the average wind speed on the ground. At some stage, the further increase in the cost of such an aggregate will begin to exceed the increase in its efficiency. And "technical progress" will stop at this as expected, as it began 20 years ago.

With this question, I think everything is clear. And now the fun part. Is there a chance for a wind farm, even in theory, to become competitors, for example, a nuclear power plant? Well, at least at the cost of electricity produced.

About the stability of the energy supply, of course, in this case it is simply incorrect to speak.

So, we calculate the cost of electricity for modern American wind farms. Capital costs 1600 US dollars per 1 kW, equipment life 25 years (equipment life time specified by the manufacturer), power factor 0,25. The price of electricity at 2,9 cents capital costs.

RememberWhat numbers did we get for the Belarusian NPP under construction:

Capital expenditures, taking into account the construction of the town of nuclear industry with its entire 0,93 infrastructure of eurocents per 1 kWh, or 1,1-1,3 US cent. Apart from the related infrastructure (for correctness), we have 0,62 eurocents or 0,8-0,9 US cents per 1 kWh of electricity generated.

Perhaps overhead costs put everything in its place? We have already obtained the operational costs of NPPs from these environmentalists (that is, our opponents). This is roughly 1,1 US cent per 1 kWh. It was difficult to find data on WEC, but I found it in the brochure of Russian sellers of this equipment. They claim that this amount is no more than 1 rubles per 1 kWh. That is, at the current rate of approximately 1,7 cent. Let 1,5.

Moreover, I focus attention, the figures are taken for the WPPs the most favorable, that is, those that the developer and the seller of equipment insist on, and for the NPP, on the contrary, the numbers are taken from the reports of opponents.

Total, taking into account the cost of operating the plant, US wind farms that were commissioned in 2016 year, on average, will have the cost of electricity production at the level of 4,5 cent per 1 kW * h.

At the NPP, this parameter is obtained 2,8-3 cent per 1 kWh. In order to reach the same efficiency figures as nuclear power engineers, American wind defenders need to cut their specific capital construction costs at least twice. Or less, but then you also need to achieve and reduce operating costs. Which in many respects constitute the SPTA and ZP of the attendants, and here you won’t save much.

But, I repeat, this is the case of the United States, that is, the most ideal case. In Europe, you guessed it, everything is much worse.

We take the real (and not theoretical) project of the Thanet Wind Farm wind power plant that we have already reviewed above.

It is easy to calculate that at the cost of capital expenditures in the area of ​​4 670 US dollars for 1 kW * h and CFC 17% (on average in Europe), the cost of such electricity will increase to 15 cents for 1 kW h.

And even if this parameter will ever be reduced threefold (which is unrealistic in theory), even then such wind generation will be at least twice as expensive as today's NPP indicators.

Someone else has questions about why I consider the European “green energy” to be a great profanation and the greatest deception? In my opinion, everything is so clear.
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  1. +16
    11 December 2017 06: 53
    The biggest problem is that the bulk of the world's power plants are coal. In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in horrific amounts, they try to ignore this part of the problem. Now you understand why many developed countries are struggling to get away from coal stations even in unprofitable ways. Wind, tidal, hydro, solar panels, in France, in my opinion, in general, only atomic ones remained. Any - just not coal. So I think it’s not entirely correct to criticize wind generators ...

    The author did not open the topic.
    "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag" ... (C)
    1. +33
      11 December 2017 07: 04
      Quote: Shurale
      In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in simply terrifying quantities

      I read a lot of publications on this topic. So, this is at least not proven, but as for me, it’s just a lie and a juggling of facts. It’s like with mobile phones that destroy the brain, if you want to believe it or not. "research" supposedly confirming or refuting opposing points of view is full, choose what you like
      1. +19
        11 December 2017 07: 22
        Alas, I didn’t post it because I read it somewhere in the newspaper, I work in the nuclear industry, and I am familiar with these data as I work.
        1. +12
          11 December 2017 07: 29
          Quote: Shurale
          I work in the nuclear industry

          I served in conscripts in the Strategic Missile Forces in Zeleny, and just like you in nuclear power, so I in rocket engines did not understand anything
          1. +10
            11 December 2017 07: 38
            Normal statement)))))
            Do you really think you have proven your opinion? I do not work in the nuclear industry as a worker throwing a uranium with a shovel. I’m an engineer and just by the specifics of my work I know something that you don’t know.
            1. +8
              11 December 2017 07: 49
              Before you began to refer to your place of work, I expressed the thesis that there are no objective studies about the special harmfulness of radioactive contamination when burning coal. (well, apart from the obvious spray effect) More precisely, there are studies et pro con
              1. +6
                11 December 2017 07: 55
                I will advise you to read the methods for extracting atomic raw materials, where and how what is mined from what is mined, and what percentage of this good is in the layers of coal deposits. Read - talk.
                1. +13
                  12 December 2017 05: 45
                  Quote: Shurale
                  I will advise you to read the methods of extracting atomic raw materials, where and how what is mined from what is mined, and what percentage of this good is in the layers of coal deposits

                  The "problem" of the allegedly increased radioactivity of the environment is simply fucking up. For centuries, we have been living and working in Donetsk among coal mines, in my cellar the radon content is 17 times higher than the permissible norm (the grandfather was the chief engineer at the mine, he specially measured it in his youth).
                  And you know what? all alive healthy, no two-headed calves, no early baldness, no problems with potency wassat
                  Even, they say there was such a joke: the Japanese, somehow we wanted to build waste recycling, but when the radiation was measured, the engineers refused to go. they have in Hiroshima, at the epicenter MUCH cleaner.
                  So do not be compared to those American housewives and students - who, when polled in the USA, call radiation and nuclear energy the most dangerous factor from year to year, although in terms of the total number of deaths, it is in the penultimate, 19th place.
                  1. +2
                    16 December 2017 13: 47
                    We drown with coal all our lives. Grandfather miner - died at 83. Apparently from radiation. ))) He also drowned coal at home all his life. Oh no no no. ))) I guess this also threatens me. Does a stroke in 83 from radiation happen? )
                    1. +1
                      16 December 2017 16: 01
                      Quote: rtutaloe
                      83 stroke from radiation happens? )
                      no, only at 94
            2. +12
              11 December 2017 09: 18
              Quote: Shurale
              I’m an engineer and just by the specifics of my work I know something that you don’t know.

              “We have such devices, but we won’t tell you about them” laughing Throw a link? Sometimes I go to coal-fired boiler rooms, it turns out I need lead shorts.
              1. +5
                11 December 2017 09: 45
                I also love Mango Mango songs, especially about crane operators. And at the expense of links ... How will I give you links to documents that I read at work? This is not Wikipedia ... And at the expense of boiler houses, you can’t worry, we are talking about millions of tons of emissions from power plants.
              2. +3
                11 December 2017 15: 28
                If you want to be a father - wrap lead eggs !!! :)))
              3. 0
                13 December 2017 00: 41
                Lead pants are not needed, but those working in these boiler rooms need dust masks, of course, not only because of the low content of radioactive elements in the ash (sometimes many times higher than the natural level), but also to prevent pneumoconiosis.
            3. +2
              11 December 2017 21: 12
              Quote: Shurale
              I’m an engineer and I just know something by the specifics of the work that you don’t know

              And detail? Well, it's interesting what they hide from us! ))) Seriously!
              1. +1
                12 December 2017 10: 00
                No one is hiding anything! This has been written about dozens of years ago. It is written, for example, that one large coal-fired power plant emits more radioactive substances into the atmosphere with ash and smoke than ALL NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS OF THE WORLD!
                By the way. Charcoal cups are emitted into the atmosphere and an eerie amount of mercury, heavy metals and carcinogenic soot.
                Are you interested in something? So at least read Wikipedia, and we already have **** to educate all kinds of Winnie76, and completely insane Chert'ov. The main thing is that it is already impossible to bring their brains to a sane state!
                1. +2
                  12 December 2017 21: 49
                  It is written, for example, that one large coal-fired power plant emits more radioactive substances into the atmosphere with ash and smoke than ALL NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS OF THE WORLD!


                  When such a definition was found long ago in the technical literature "the main volume of the residues of the combustion process falls out at a distance of 11 times the height of the boiler pipe", but in fact it is not the pipe height, but gas purification and the concentration and power of such objects. For example, in Germany you will not find more than two cases of aluminum production, and given the fact that the capacity of their electrolytic cells is almost two times less than ours - 225 KA, and in Bratsk we have 24 buildings with a capacity of 2 times more and the number of electrolyzers is natural also larger and the yield of aluminum is also natural - in short, the economy. So, pheasants walk near the borders of the industrial zone in Germany, and in Bratsk the forest is dry in the district, and because of the excess fluoride in the ground near the cows, the bones become fragile, almost glass, they eat grass from this land. So the latest successes in gas cleaning have reached such a level that these problems are a thing of the past. But it costs money to implement them - the economy again I explained all this with the example of aluminum production because emissions and side effects there are much more problematic than just those that occur when burning coal.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2017 03: 39
                    Chimneys do not produce harmful substances. They only throw muck on a larger or smaller area. Cleanliness in German industrial zones is not due to the success of gas purification, but because of the removal of hazardous industries to third world countries.
                    Actually, energy is being discussed here and not all other industry.
                2. +1
                  13 December 2017 01: 00
                  I work in Dubna. This nonsense is very similar to the letters of protests that came to different authorities against the construction of the NUCL Nuclotron
                  1. +5
                    13 December 2017 04: 15
                    The biggest nonsense was after the publication of an article by a Swedish rural doctor who managed to catch a correlation with many nuclear tests conducted thousands of kilometers from Sweden from a dozen cases of cancer in a Swedish village. He immediately gave birth to the theory of the "thresholdlessness" of the harm of radiation. What a squeal in "civilized" Europe immediately began! And a whole Committee of anxious European housewives immediately created! Since this Committee had real MONEY, then immediately the Russian and Belarusian "ecologists" with great enthusiasm got involved. Especially zealous is the member of the political council of the Yabloko party "ecologist" Yablokov .. I have not met a more ugly and corrupt "scientist".
                3. +3
                  14 December 2017 14: 57
                  And I think why the Finns refuse gas and switch to coal. Probably they want to die faster. To date, Kuzbas sends all coal for export. I waited two weeks to buy coal home.
          2. +1
            11 December 2017 19: 01
            And I served in the Green as an officer. :)
            1. +3
              11 December 2017 20: 26
              And I’m the daughter of an officer and everything is not so clear here.
      2. +5
        11 December 2017 07: 42
        Look at one of the Galileo programs. They put an egg between the two phones. And they called. After 30, the egg was boiled. I agree on the "expensive" way to cook the egg.
        1. +13
          11 December 2017 07: 53
          Quote: victorsh
          After 30 minutes, the egg was boiled.

          Well on such a "button accordion" to be conducted ...... I am puzzled ... Are you a supporter of bulk?
          1. +17
            11 December 2017 08: 08
            And where does LeXa come from? I served in RTV for more than 20 years. And the young people arrived in practice showed what the radar was. They caught an ermine, tied to a pole and turned on the radar at 100 meters at 50% power. 10 sec. and it’s cooked. Fiercely towards an animal? BUT IT IS EXPLICIT to guys.
            1. +3
              11 December 2017 08: 15
              My father served on the radar near Klyuchevskaya Sopka, they tracked missile launches. So, they had a state of emergency once, the antenna changed the tilt during work, who managed to dive for cover, and one guy was slow, half-hearted.
              1. +7
                11 December 2017 09: 57
                Do you understand the difference in radar power and mobile phone?
                Mobile radiation power of about 1 watts. Is it possible to boil an egg with such power and for how long?
                1. +2
                  11 December 2017 10: 48
                  Did I say that this is possible?
                2. 0
                  11 December 2017 21: 11
                  100 micro watts per cm square is considered to be already harmful harmful radiation and employees must be paid for harmful working conditions and shortened working hours
                  1. 0
                    12 December 2017 10: 55
                    And how did you manage to measure the electromagnetic radiation power in the operator’s cabins?
                    Radar operators were harmed not by electromagnetic radiation, but by X-ray radiation from electron beam monitors. Old household televisions with picture tubes also gave x-rays
                    1. +1
                      13 December 2017 00: 56
                      Quote: Oops
                      Old household televisions with picture tubes also gave x-rays


                      A noticeable soft x-ray was from color tube televisions. Especially at the very first, in which stood the high-voltage kenotron GP-5. Here they (these televisions) strongly "fonil". At first, this kenotron was closed with a steel screen with a wall thickness of 5 millimeters. Then they began to save metal.
                3. 0
                  11 December 2017 21: 23
                  Quote: Mestny
                  Is it possible to boil an egg with such power and for how long?

                  You can cook ... but for a long time))
                  For "very young children" © ...
                  If you estimate that an electric kettle with a capacity of 2 kW boils a glass of water in about a couple of minutes (we don’t need more water to boil one egg), and the egg is boiled, let’s, 7 minutes ... total about 10 minutes ... It turns out about 330 watts /hour.
                  Or so: 330 hours (at 1 watt), which is almost 2 weeks.
                  Well, if it does not fade before! )))
                  1. 0
                    12 December 2017 10: 19
                    I don’t know about the egg, but I myself saw a video of how students made popcorn using three or four cell phones. Pretty quick they did it - like in the microwave!
                    1. 0
                      12 December 2017 10: 41
                      Moderator, why on earth did you delete the comment? What didn’t your tender soul like?
                      And will you delete it? Why are you so angry?
                      1. 0
                        12 December 2017 11: 00
                        The comment is back. Wonders...
                        Thank you moderator!
                4. 0
                  13 December 2017 00: 19
                  At the first moment of a call, when the phone is looking for a base station, the power of some models can reach 2 watts.
                5. 0
                  13 December 2017 00: 23
                  Quote: Mestny
                  Mobile radiation power of about 1 watts. Is it possible to boil an egg with such power and for how long?


                  At the first moment of a call, when the phone is looking for a base station, the power of some models can reach 2 watts.
            2. +1
              11 December 2017 09: 32
              And I have a familiar signalman in the north in the beam warmed the stew. Maybe he’s lying of course ...
              1. +4
                11 December 2017 09: 50
                I lied. There are signalmen in the "north" of the diesel engine. It’s safer to heat it up.
            3. +8
              11 December 2017 10: 40
              Quote: victorsh
              Caught ermine

              “Comrade Major, they’ll bring spirits today!”
              - Catch the ermine!
              1. +2
                11 December 2017 11: 13
                It’s enviable! I had a chief P-35-oh. An excellent chief of the station. His daughter walked in an ermine vest.
            4. +8
              11 December 2017 17: 06
              The next button accordion, I also served and worked all my life on the radar, and we also checked this bike, hung in the bag of a ridiculous cat directly on the radar antenna irradiator, noted the time, twisted it for half an hour, then took pity - took it off, the cat rushed to eat. after that, he "served" on the locator for another five years. Especially killed - a distance of 100 meters.
              1. +3
                11 December 2017 18: 56
                Quote: vlanis
                Another button accordion

                Quote: vlanis
                Especially killed - a distance of 100 meters

                "Birds do not sing there, trees do not grow ..."
                During my service at the RLC, I didn’t observe such horrors, TB was naturally observed, no one crawled out of the KUNG unnecessarily under "high", and cat accidents occurred solely on household grounds. laughing
              2. 0
                13 December 2017 01: 09
                Quote: vlanis
                they hung up in a bag of a ridiculous cat right on the radar antenna irradiator, noted the time, twisted it for half an hour, then took pity - removed it, the cat rushed to eat. after that, he "served" on the locator for another five years.


                Well I do not know. Maybe they hung this cat on the wrong side of the irradiator? We have one man under high hit, blinded. Belma in both eyes. And something else with vessels or something. Just like your cat lived five years after that. A man in a little over fifty was.
              3. 0
                14 December 2017 20: 00
                I was working at the starting position of the S-75 air defense system. and then PRV-13 starts bowing in my direction (power 2.7 kW in continuous mode) so the ringing was in my head. impossible to work. and before him was 300 meters
            5. 0
              13 December 2017 01: 03
              Well, you compared the power of the radar and the transmitter power of a mobile phone. MW and W. If anything, VUS 441002 and a civil diploma physicist
          2. +6
            11 December 2017 08: 10
            Are you a supporter of Putin?
            (Could not resist laughing it painfully reminds me of this scream - are you against the leading role of the party ?! Directly Michurinovschina some ...)
            1. +1
              11 December 2017 08: 27
              And here, whose supporter am I? We are discussing an article. A man doubted the information. I have a dzh. children (when they were little) knew why the grid was in front of DOS. And they don’t get sick on the cell.
              1. 0
                11 December 2017 09: 18
                Sorry, the question about Putin was not for you, I wanted to ask him to someone who started a conversation about Navalny, missed the button ...
        2. 0
          13 December 2017 00: 52
          It will not be possible to boil an egg with the help of mobile phones, but the madness of pure water can stroll in front of a powerful radar! Itself built an early warning radar type "Daryal", next to the construction site was the previous station (I don’t remember which one), so a couple de .... in a walk in front of it, they commissioned right away.
        3. 0
          15 December 2017 16: 56
          I do not believe. disa.
      3. +6
        11 December 2017 09: 06
        If you spray millions of tons of material, then it will somehow have something radioactive in it.
      4. +18
        11 December 2017 10: 15
        Quote: Chertt
        Quote: Shurale
        In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in simply terrifying quantities

        I read a lot of publications on this topic. So, this is at least not proven, but as for me, it’s just a lie and a juggling of facts.

        ...chemical industry!
        Harmful? Yes! Environmentally hazardous? Yes!!! And we all know that ... - with numbers, facts and statistics!
        But then a group of British people come to our country and our company to work (under a contract!) - no, don’t be alarmed! not "scientists ... - just chemical design engineers! however, among them was still one Korean ... hesitated, you know!
        So - in conversations with them (in the “worn in a smoking room” format) we began to learn incredible things: how useful this very “chemistry” is for our health (which, as we have been taught all our life, we considered harmful!), How it promotes increase vitality, potency (!!! -Well, how could we do without it !!! when even potato chips raise it now incredibly!) and finally everything! ... And where, we ask, did you get all this, so informative? And from official sources, sources - studies of "British scientists", scientific literature ... and, of course, official statistics!
        -----------------------------
        ... such speeches made you think deeply! And we are still thinking about it ... (about "research" - and for whom and by whom they are conducted ..., about "scientific literature" - and for whom it is written ..., and - at the same time - about " official statistics "... - especially about the" potency "excited some ...
        It was at the beginning of the 90s ... Draw conclusions about the dangers and benefits of this and that, the effect of all this breach "on potency" ... and mainly on the fact that it is much more important - on the brain !!! We need to think for ourselves, and not vaguely stated by the "scientific and statistical data" of some coolly interested "scientists" to be added!
        -------------------------
        In Africa, a tribe of blacks living in the area of ​​uranium tar deposits was discovered quite a long time ago; radiation level - well, completely unacceptable! Lived for centuries, tall and physically strong and healthy, even among the surrounding tribes; live to a very old age, all teeth are whole, and - most importantly - intelligence is significantly higher than that of people from neighboring tribes; their women - like brides - like hot cakes!, dear ransom-kalym-bakshish pay for them! ...
        ... or is it a fake? Well, in the 60s, even fakes were not in fashion - they haven’t been invented yet ...
        1. +3
          11 December 2017 21: 16
          ))))))))))))) This is not a fake. Because of the greens, they even ceased to mention that without radiation at least 20 microns people would die. Below immunity dies with all that it implies. And the leaves after rain with radiation do not fade, but only become greener. Wither from chemistry (sulfur compounds, etc.).
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 15: 35
            That's for sure. As my ship's doctor said: "the effect of low doses of radiation on humans is not understood." On my own, I personally can say - while I worked among uranium and plutonium for a dozen years - I was absolutely healthy - like an astronaut (examined annually with an addiction). when he went ashore - three years later he went to hospital with severe anemia and a bunch of accompanying sores on three sheets of description.
    2. +37
      11 December 2017 07: 09
      is there something unsolved? good article ....
      and from myself I’ll add a bit of humor, a little black ....
      1. +15
        11 December 2017 07: 53
        Coal - dirty, gas - dependent on the bloody Putin regime, there are few hydroelectric power stations, nuclear power plants are fukushimo dangerous, Santaclaus windmills cut ...
        Everywhere there are cons. Here the question of choice is what to put up with and what to overpay for.
        1. +5
          11 December 2017 10: 21
          Quote: Waltasar
          Coal - dirty, gas - dependent on the bloody Putin regime, there are few hydroelectric power stations, nuclear power plants are fukushimo dangerous, Santaclaus windmills cut ...
          Everywhere there are cons. Here the question of choice is what to put up with and what to overpay for.

          Felix Krivin had such a parable (about the essence of technological progress): What is the difference between the TV, which our contemporaries spend their free time on, from the bonfire, on which our ancestors spent the evenings in caves?
          So the fire is much better - it shines and warms! And the TV only shines, and even then only on one side ...
          (C)
          1. +2
            11 December 2017 13: 39
            EMNIP, this is from Savchenko. Discovery of oneself.
            1. +1
              11 December 2017 15: 02
              Quote: sxfRipper
              EMNIP, this is from Savchenko. Discovery of oneself.

              ??
              ... not, after all, Krivin ... It seems, "Hyacinth Islands", or "In the land of things"? ... If My Memory serves Me ...
              ... and if - "changes"? Then yes, Vladimir Savchenko, "Opening Yourself" ...
      2. +5
        11 December 2017 09: 07
        This is not humor, but reality. Windmills are poorly compatible with birds.
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 19: 06
          Are you generally interested in the speed of rotation of industrial windmills? :)
          Even my household for 5 years at a speed of up to 300 revolutions per minute, not a single living creature was killed. :) And for large ones - 15-20 rpm. :)
        2. +7
          11 December 2017 19: 37
          Quote: EvilLion
          and reality, windmills with birds are poorly compatible.

          Quote: nickd55
          my household for 5 years at a speed of up to 300 rpm did not kill a single living creature. :)

          With an increase in the size of the blades of the windmills, an infrasound effect occurs that adversely affects the flora and fauna. As a rule, no living creatures live near modern (and powerful) wind farms.
          1. +2
            11 December 2017 20: 06
            Quote: stalkerwalker
            As a rule, no living creatures live near modern (and powerful) wind farms.

            Breshet. Yes In Tatarstan (or in Bashkiria), the cafe stands next to the enti shaitan propellers. Good food good . not like on a ship tongue . Hi Ilyich! drinks
            1. +4
              11 December 2017 20: 25
              Quote: Angry Guerrilla
              Breshet. In Tatarstan (or in Bashkiria), the cafe stands next to the enti shaitan propellers.

              Hi, Yuri!
              hi
              Not. Do not shout. It is a fact.
              1. +2
                11 December 2017 21: 42
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                Not. Do not shout. It is a fact.

                Well I do not know... what How many times did I eat there and nothing request , and nothing, and nothing, and nothing, IR, and nothing, and nothing ....
                1. +3
                  11 December 2017 22: 29
                  Quote: Angry Guerrilla
                  How many times did I eat there and nothing

                  If you had lived there for half a year, we would have lost you .....
                  wassat
            2. 0
              11 December 2017 20: 55
              And the big ones there are “shaitan propellers”? :)
          2. +2
            11 December 2017 20: 42
            Right under my windmill, moles dig their holes and worms in the ground - darkness. :)
            I repeat, infrasound can accompany only large windmills, but it is not a fact that all living creatures scatter there. In my opinion, even for large windmills, such a danger is exaggerated. And the point here is not the size of the blades, but the frequency of their rotation.
            1. +3
              11 December 2017 22: 31
              Quote: nickd55
              And the point here is not the size of the blades, but the frequency of their rotation.

              Well yes....
              The desktop fan, like a helicopter, has rotating blades .... laughing
          3. 0
            13 December 2017 01: 47
            Even in Germany, local residents complain of constant drafts from the operation of windmills.
      3. 0
        11 December 2017 16: 41
        laugh the little devil
      4. 0
        13 December 2017 00: 56
        Well that reminded! We need to put a windmill before the holidays! lol
      5. 0
        15 December 2017 10: 54
        Exactly! laughing This is the maximum than a windmill can do. And if the nuclear power plant smells, the picture is more terrible and will be for a long time! In addition, there is no waste from the windmill, but the NPP, we still have to think about where to store the waste ... In general, the NPP is clearly cheaper, but the fact that windmills are a divorce! Stupidity. The author did not take into account a lot of things.
        Z.Y. I wonder when the windmill paid for itself ?.
        1. +1
          15 December 2017 11: 49
          Quote: kip9696
          In addition, there is no waste from the windmill

          Yes?!!!
          and who told you that ?!
          1. 0
            15 December 2017 14: 41
            Well, the waste wind has not harmed anyone! wink
    3. +7
      11 December 2017 07: 40
      So, horse-drawn transport will be cheaper in terms of gasoline / oats, but you can’t get far. lol
      1. +5
        11 December 2017 07: 56
        cheaper gas / oats

        will not .... if in terms of l / s - the ruble ....
    4. FID
      +7
      11 December 2017 08: 48
      Quote: Shurale
      "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag" ... (C)

      Well, well .... We are cultured people, don’t do it right away!
      1. +4
        11 December 2017 09: 25
        Someone else has questions about why I consider the European “green energy” to be a great profanation and the greatest deception? In my opinion, everything is so clear.
        Posted by Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)

        Peremptory statements of the author clearly do not belong to the culture ...
        1. +11
          11 December 2017 10: 29
          Quote: Shurale
          Peremptory statements of the author are clearly not culturally ..

          You do not get angry, but your most peremptory judgments. And if to summarize all the comments, it should be concluded that there is no single solution in the energy sector. All its forms have their pros and cons, which are easily rigged by interested groups.
    5. +18
      11 December 2017 09: 26
      Academician Petr Leonidovich Kapitsa has long opened this topic.
      "On October 8, 1975, at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences, Academician Pyotr Kapitsa, who was awarded three years later the Nobel Prize in Physics, made a conceptual report in which, based on basic physical principles, he essentially buried everything types of "alternative energy", with the exception of controlled thermonuclear fusion. ""
      https://alex-leshy.livejournal.com/1032365.html
      1. +3
        11 December 2017 10: 33
        Quote: To be or not to be
        "October 8, 1975 at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences,

        Well, you waved (with all due respect to Pyotr Leonidovich Kapitsa) you would have brought the treatise of the monk Bertold Schwartz as a proof
        1. +11
          11 December 2017 11: 24
          Have you read that document?
          Do you think that over 40 years the density of solar energy has changed, the winds began to blow harder? Or crop yields increased at times?
          Yes, the efficiency of modern systems has become higher, but not so much that the report is considered obsolete.
        2. +4
          11 December 2017 21: 26
          Quote: Chertt
          Well, you waved (with all due respect to Pyotr Leonidovich Kapitsa) you would have brought the treatise of the monk Bertold Schwartz as a proof

          And I googled. Interestingly, everywhere they write the number 250. One was mistaken, the rest are reprinted. wink
          1. Ren
            +2
            12 December 2017 06: 27
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            And I googled. Interestingly, everywhere they write the number 250. One was mistaken, the rest are reprinted.

            The Academy was founded on January 28 (February 8), 1724 in St. Petersburg by decree of Peter I.
            October 8, 1975 at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences

            1724 years have passed since 250, this is a fact (1975-1724). hi
            Learn diligent and do not forget the queen of sciences (at least its basics) lol
            1. +4
              12 December 2017 18: 17
              Quote: Ren
              Learn diligent and do not forget the queen of sciences (at least its basics)

              Why not 251? recourse The Academy of Sciences of the USSR was founded in the 1925 year, if I am not mistaken.
    6. +11
      11 December 2017 11: 53
      Quote: Shurale
      The biggest problem is that the bulk of the world's power plants are coal. In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in horrific amounts, they try to ignore this part of the problem. Now you understand why many developed countries are struggling to get away from coal stations even in unprofitable ways. Wind, tidal, hydro, solar panels, in France, in my opinion, in general, only atomic ones remained. Any - just not coal. So I think it’s not entirely correct to criticize wind generators ...

      The author did not open the topic.
      "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag" ... (C)

      What was the topic? In my opinion, nuclear power plants and wind farms were compared. Nothing was said about coal TPPs and TPPs, no comparisons were made. Moreover, the author did not mention and did not take into account in the article a number of problems of wind farm, which even more economically show the failure of this energy. There are difficulties in pairing electricity from different wind farm generators in the network - there are special filters there both with the frequency of the problem and with the voltage. Traditional power plants have no such problems. Moreover, here the economy does not steer, but banal subsidizing. In EU countries, not only wind energy is subsidized and exempted from taxes, but money is paid to the owners of the land on which the wind farm is installed from the state. And this is done at the expense of taxpayers - here economic comparisons should not be done at all - the wind farm generally has no part of the costs - and this is established at the legislative level.
      Regarding the radiation of coal stations - I agree with comrades.
      Quote: Chertt
      I read a lot of publications on this topic. So, this is at least not proven, but as for me, it’s just a lie and a juggling of facts. It’s like with mobile phones that destroy the brain, if you want to believe it or not. "research" supposedly confirming or refuting opposing points of view is full, choose what you like

      Modern coal plants with modern filters are quite effective. True, their economy is worse than that of gas or nuclear. But there is much more coal, it is rather cheap, and its amount is practically inexhaustible. It is worth noting that in Kemerovo at the outbreak of the USSR, an underground gasification technology for poor and depleted coal seams was developed. There, methane was produced directly from coal in the mine - then it was collected and used. The cost turned out to be no cheaper than the cost of gas produced somewhere on the Yamal Peninsula. A technology was also developed for hydro-mining coal - with high-pressure water jets, the coal seam was destroyed, coal was crushed, waste was separated, and coal was directly supplied with water to the furnaces of power plants or cement and lime rotary kilns. The problem was with their ignition, but after ignition even water decomposed into its components and only contributed to the complete combustion of coal. We have forgotten these technologies, they have forgotten, but sooner or later they will have to return to them anyway.
      Now, in terms of price-quality-ecology, gas stations, then nuclear ones, come first. Wind farms are significantly inferior to them, even in ecology - the noise from the wind farm is very significant, and the birds often fall under the blades. In many European countries, noise was legally limited to 45 dB, and even less at night. This also contributes to higher economic performance of US wind farms.
      So the author is right - there is no revolution in Europe, especially in wind energy.
      But wind farms are quite efficient to use - in hard-to-reach areas where power lines to stretch are either very expensive or impossible. And as an alternative to diesel or gasoline generators. In this case, and state subsidies or benefits - and for production, and for repairs, and for the operation of wind farms will be quite appropriate. Or a subsidy directly to the user. hi
      1. 0
        17 December 2017 19: 38
        Quote: andj61
        Quote: Shurale
        The biggest problem is that the bulk of the world's power plants are coal. In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in horrific amounts, they try to ignore this part of the problem. Now you understand why many developed countries are struggling to get away from coal stations even in unprofitable ways. Wind, tidal, hydro, solar panels, in France, in my opinion, in general, only atomic ones remained. Any - just not coal. So I think it’s not entirely correct to criticize wind generators ...

        The author did not open the topic.
        "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag" ... (C)

        What was the topic? In my opinion, nuclear power plants and wind farms were compared. Nothing was said about coal TPPs and TPPs, no comparisons were made. Moreover, the author did not mention and did not take into account in the article a number of problems of wind farm, which even more economically show the failure of this energy. There are difficulties in pairing electricity from different wind farm generators in the network - there are special filters there both with the frequency of the problem and with the voltage. Traditional power plants have no such problems. Moreover, here the economy does not steer, but banal subsidizing. In EU countries, not only wind energy is subsidized and exempted from taxes, but money is paid to the owners of the land on which the wind farm is installed from the state. And this is done at the expense of taxpayers - here economic comparisons should not be done at all - the wind farm generally has no part of the costs - and this is established at the legislative level.
        Regarding the radiation of coal stations - I agree with comrades.
        Quote: Chertt
        I read a lot of publications on this topic. So, this is at least not proven, but as for me, it’s just a lie and a juggling of facts. It’s like with mobile phones that destroy the brain, if you want to believe it or not. "research" supposedly confirming or refuting opposing points of view is full, choose what you like

        Modern coal plants with modern filters are quite effective. True, their economy is worse than that of gas or nuclear. But there is much more coal, it is rather cheap, and its amount is practically inexhaustible. It is worth noting that in Kemerovo at the outbreak of the USSR, an underground gasification technology for poor and depleted coal seams was developed. There, methane was produced directly from coal in the mine - then it was collected and used. The cost turned out to be no cheaper than the cost of gas produced somewhere on the Yamal Peninsula. A technology was also developed for hydro-mining coal - with high-pressure water jets, the coal seam was destroyed, coal was crushed, waste was separated, and coal was directly supplied with water to the furnaces of power plants or cement and lime rotary kilns. The problem was with their ignition, but after ignition even water decomposed into its components and only contributed to the complete combustion of coal. We have forgotten these technologies, they have forgotten, but sooner or later they will have to return to them anyway.
        Now, in terms of price-quality-ecology, gas stations, then nuclear ones, come first. Wind farms are significantly inferior to them, even in ecology - the noise from the wind farm is very significant, and the birds often fall under the blades. In many European countries, noise was legally limited to 45 dB, and even less at night. This also contributes to higher economic performance of US wind farms.
        So the author is right - there is no revolution in Europe, especially in wind energy.
        But wind farms are quite efficient to use - in hard-to-reach areas where power lines to stretch are either very expensive or impossible. And as an alternative to diesel or gasoline generators. In this case, and state subsidies or benefits - and for production, and for repairs, and for the operation of wind farms will be quite appropriate. Or a subsidy directly to the user. hi

        You are not accurate. Underground gasification of coal is a completely different song. An attempt to get methane from coal seams did not come out of laboratory research and public relations of Aman Tuleyev, the governor of the Kemerovo region. This gasification was carried out (now not in the know) at the world's only mine in the city of Kiselevsk, Kemerovo region. It is impossible to think of a more barbaric destruction of nature. After coal mining, laying ventilation openings, coal was burnt in the seams, and it burned with little air, emitting tar, carbon monoxide, any creosote and the entire periodic table, which they tried to catch and send to the storage tanks for processing . The scent from this affair spread dozens of kilometers around, the water in streams, wells and in the BURNES (!!!) became brown, wrapped in oily film, and bitter. Dips on the surface from the vacated area of ​​the burnt formation could appear anywhere and at any time. Perestroika, the only thing that did the positive, it ruined this way of dough extraction. The mines, many were closed, this one closed too.
        Next.
        Hydro production was and is being produced. Coal in the form of pulp (mixture with water) is fed by coal suction pumps (such there are devices) to the surface, and fed to processing plants. Coal in any mining technology is DISCOVERED. (mining term is clogged) by breed. In factories, it is enriched. Usually, it is ground with ball mills along with the extracted rock, to the state of the powder. Coal is lighter, has a specific gravity of 1,6 tons per cubic meter, the rock is heavier - 2,3 tons per cubic meter. The mixture is poured into baths with a solution, heavy salt is dissolved in water, bringing the specific gravity to 1,8 tons per cubic meter. Emulsifier (analogue of liquid soap). Bottom air is supplied. When bubbling, the foam floats upward, the rock sinks. From above, they are collected, dried and burned at power plants by blowing nozzles into the furnace.
    7. +4
      11 December 2017 12: 31
      In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in simply terrifying quantities

      As for the "terrifying" - an exaggeration. I lived in a small village, where both the production and heating of the village itself was provided by a coal thermal power station. Some excesses in the area of ​​the wind track were, but not horror, horror, horror (s). With the general background elevated in Primorye, this can be ignored.
      1. 0
        12 December 2017 06: 29
        Horrific - here was meant the total amount of this dirt in the world, since the number of coal-fired power plants is overwhelming.
        1. 0
          12 December 2017 08: 08
          If there are no terrifying ones right near the stations, then where are they on a global scale?
      2. 0
        12 December 2017 12: 47
        In China, because of coal-fired thermal power plants, I was constantly able to go in masks in cities, so they want to transfer everything to gas. We will help them soon.
    8. +3
      11 December 2017 13: 09
      The author is a clear fan of nuclear energy. has the right, but why not "keep silent" the facts?

      the cost of nuclear energy is killed when you start to include the cost of disposing of radioactive waste here. This was one of the main reasons in Germany when the state said - "and now USE!" Those. a private company should pay for the plant’s expenditures for the atomic station and expenses for 100500 years for disposal.

      UTB in Russia, the atom of the station is a state. And it is not private business that pays out of profits for disposal, but the state (i.e. you are from your taxes).

      I'm not a fan of windmills, but I think that with each year their cost will be lower and they have the right to have some market share :-)

      for reference - in Germany 20 years ago the share of energy from renewable sources (wind turbines, etc.) was 3%. Last year already 30%.

      Greetings to Gazprom, Arabs and other gas and oil-gas atoms :-)
      1. +7
        11 December 2017 17: 08
        Quote: vlad_vlad
        for reference - in Germany 20 years ago the share of energy from renewable sources (wind turbines, etc.) was 3%. Last year already 30%.
        Greetings to Gazprom, Arabs and other gas and oil-gas atoms :-)

        actually this is cunning
        first, what share in these 30% is taken by the washed enterprises
        second, how much energy is spent on PRODUCING equipment for generating "green" energy
        third, by how much you need to increase energy production capacities if we take into account heating, hot water supply, as well as the transition to electric transport
        when you answer all these questions you will send greetings to Gazprom
        1. +1
          11 December 2017 17: 42
          You with the Russian language are somehow worse than mine ...
          I do not understand what you are talking about. What does all your items have to do with it?

          More times Russian in white:
          30% of all electricity produced in Germany was made on the basis of green energy. The remaining 70% is gas, coal, oil, atom ...
          20 years ago - 3% of green energy, the remaining 97% - gas, coal, oil, atom.

          in both cases it turns out the sum = 100% (this happens). the more electricity is produced by green energy, the less gas, oil, coal, etc. are needed.
          Electricity - ETA is such crap in wires. etu crap is not visible but it is.

          so intelligibly?
          1. +1
            11 December 2017 19: 54
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            You with the Russian language are somehow worse than mine ...

            wrote "on the run"
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            30% of all electricity produced in Germany was made on the basis of green energy.

            you again move away from the answer, one thing is the “point” energy for households and completely different powerful consumers who need not smeared kW, but MW concentrated in one place
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            20 years ago - 3% of green energy, the remaining 97% - gas, coal, oil, atom.

            once again you subsidize households for the transition to green technologies, you can saturate this market, but can you translate the Ruhr into "windmills"?
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            the more electricity is produced by green energy, the less gas, oil, coal, etc. are needed.

            nope, you don’t think how much “coal” should be burned for reproduction of “green” generators
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            Electricity - ETA is such crap in wires. etu crap is not visible but it is.
            so intelligibly?

            It’s clear, I talked with those who do not distinguish the operating current from the starting current
          2. 0
            12 December 2017 06: 05
            Quote: vlad_vlad
            30% of all electricity produced in Germany was made on the basis of green energy. The remaining 70% is gas, coal, oil, atom ...
            20 years ago - 3% of green energy, the remaining 97% - gas, coal, oil, atom.
            in both cases the result is = 100%
            so intelligibly

            But nifiga. The fact that increased production of "wind" electricity does not mean that the rest was produced less.
            On the contrary, over 20 years, consumption has grown significantly, and if earlier
            (figures at random), they consumed 1 kW / h, of which “clean" 000 kW / h, now, after 000 years, consumption has grown to 30 kW / h, of which 000 kW / h.
            so intelligibly? bully
            1. 0
              12 December 2017 11: 22
              Is it in Germany for 20 years that consumption has grown significantly? :) Can you confirm with something? :)
            2. +1
              12 December 2017 12: 58
              At times, it doesn’t work out. According to the IEA, from 1990 to 2008, the average energy consumption per capita increased by 10%, while the world's population increased by 27%. Regional energy consumption also increased from 1990 to 2008: in the Middle East - by 170%, in China - by 146%, in India - by 91%, in Africa - by 70%, in Latin America - by 66%, in the USA - by 20%, in the EU-27 - by 7%, and throughout the world - by 39%.
              1. 0
                13 December 2017 01: 07
                After the rejection of tube TVs, there was a continuous energy saving. smile
                1. 0
                  17 December 2017 21: 05
                  Quote: sharp-lad
                  After the rejection of tube TVs, there was a continuous energy saving. smile

                  You think so in vain. Though as a joke.
                  Good savings came when they abandoned the planned production of unnecessary. They began to smelter less and as much as needed, under orders (before, 3 times more than the USA smelted), they plowed less land (it was more profitable to raise productivity), they stopped building BAM. etc.
                  1. 0
                    17 December 2017 21: 46
                    Remember how much the first tube color TVs consumed, and now my 42 x inch eats only 140 watts. With the same lighting, I changed the lamps to LED, I do not save on lighting and pay half as much for electricity at least. Also with street lighting, when switching to LED devices, consumption drops by a third with a simultaneous increase in illumination. About the savings in the offices (offices) in general I am silent. And this is nationwide!
                    Good savings came when they abandoned the planned production of unnecessary.
                    Not a planned economy is bad, but bad-looking planners! They plan at any enterprise.
                    They began to smelter less and as much as needed, under orders, (before, the United States smelted 3 times more)
                    As far as I remember, they began to smelter less, produce less various goods and at the same time began to buy more (at times) abroad. If you consider this an achievement, then I consider this situation in the industry to be DECLINE !!!
                    less plowing of land (it is more profitable to raise productivity)
                    And you can’t argue, but it does not have a big impact on electricity consumption (in terms of interest).
                    Build BAM have ceased.
                    There are hopes for the construction of a Mega BAM called the Silk Road.
                    Sincerely.
                    1. +1
                      17 December 2017 22: 36
                      Quote: sharp-lad
                      Remember how much the first tube color TVs consumed, and now my 42 x inch eats only 140 watts. With the same lighting, I changed the lamps to LED, I do not save on lighting and pay half as much for electricity at least. Also with street lighting, when switching to LED devices, consumption drops by a third with a simultaneous increase in illumination. About the savings in the offices (offices) in general I am silent. And this is nationwide!
                      Good savings came when they abandoned the planned production of unnecessary.
                      Not a planned economy is bad, but bad-looking planners! They plan at any enterprise.
                      They began to smelter less and as much as needed, under orders, (before, the United States smelted 3 times more)
                      As far as I remember, they began to smelter less, produce less various goods and at the same time began to buy more (at times) abroad. If you consider this an achievement, then I consider this situation in the industry to be DECLINE !!!
                      less plowing of land (it is more profitable to raise productivity)
                      And you can’t argue, but it does not have a big impact on electricity consumption (in terms of interest).
                      Build BAM have ceased.
                      There are hopes for the construction of a Mega BAM called the Silk Road.
                      Sincerely.

                      The planners were wonderful. Ready to bet.
                      M.S. Gorbachev, in his time, blurted out from the TV screen that, they say, the metallurgists did well, they made an obligation to cook steel on order. So, all this time, in the USSR, they cooked what would turn out. That is Comrade. Kosygin, not trusting either the State Planning Commission or the Gossnab, PERSONALLY distributed the metal to the ministries. My factory declared electrical steel 400 tons per year, we were allocated 200 tons. And we coped with the plans completely. Tell HOW to PLAN in the conditions of total lies, listing needs and fulfillment and concealment of opportunities? You flew Aeroflot planes, traveled by trains, stayed in hotels in those golden times? I didn’t get tickets, but the trains were half empty, I couldn’t get into hotels, but the rooms were empty, I couldn’t BUY anything, but REACH is quite possible.
                      1. 0
                        17 December 2017 23: 01
                        Partially agree, but much depended on local leadership! Where I lived in Soviet times, there were problems with food (everyone had everything, but had to stand in line), motor vehicles (who had funds for cars didn’t walk on cars), furniture (ordered through a store and waited three or four months), mopeds stood in the store almost without disappearing, IL brand motorcycles were delivered monthly, Java motorcycle, who wanted to wait and buy, who did not want to wait, could buy IL, and so on! The city authorities really worked and therefore in my city there was no total deficit. City of Gulbene, LSSR.
                        P.S. The number of citizens did not reach 10 people ..
                  2. 0
                    17 December 2017 22: 29
                    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                    less plowing of land (it is more profitable to raise productivity)

                    and how much did they raise ?!
                    1. 0
                      17 December 2017 22: 41
                      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                      less plowing of land (it is more profitable to raise productivity)

                      and how much did they raise ?!

                      THEN sang about stopudovo (record) harvest. But it is 16 centners per hectare.
                      In the past (2016) in Dagestan, the yield was 54 centners per hectare, the sowing material was Russian. Not elite.
                      1. 0
                        18 December 2017 08: 16
                        Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                        In the past (2016) in Dagestan, the yield was 54 centners per hectare, the sowing material was Russian. Not elite.

                        game with numbers
                        firstly, Dagestan is not quite an exact figure
                        secondly, if you take the data, there are no special changes by region, but there was a record but not many times, and this record is not kept at the same time, if you take on average the figure will be 26, 8
                        the union gave an average of 15, but again this average figure because the Kazakh SSR, due to its characteristics, gave lower yields
          3. +1
            13 December 2017 01: 04
            And this crap is painfully fighting! crying
      2. +7
        11 December 2017 19: 45
        Quote: vlad_vlad
        Greetings to Gazprom, Arabs and other gas and oil-gas atoms :-)

        Well, let's say, this is for you Germans, who will soon have to learn Farsi as a "second" state lol
        The problem with the disposal takes place, no doubt .... But who is to blame for the fact that you have no place in Western Europe for the disposal of radioactive waste? But there were many places for the "newly-minted" Germans from Afghanistan, Syria, Sudan, Libya ... And now the question is - which is more dangerous .... wassat
        And yet yes ... Hello G. Schroeder! laughing
      3. +2
        12 December 2017 09: 02
        Quote: vlad_vlad
        The author is a clear fan of nuclear energy. has the right, but why not "keep silent" the facts?

        the cost of nuclear energy is killed when you start to include the cost of disposing of radioactive waste here. This was one of the main reasons in Germany when the state said - "and now USE!" Those. a private company should pay for the plant’s expenditures for the atomic station and expenses for 100500 years for disposal.

        UTB in Russia, the atom of the station is a state. And it is not private business that pays out of profits for disposal, but the state (i.e. you are from your taxes).

        I'm not a fan of windmills, but I think that with each year their cost will be lower and they have the right to have some market share :-)

        for reference - in Germany 20 years ago the share of energy from renewable sources (wind turbines, etc.) was 3%. Last year already 30%.

        Greetings to Gazprom, Arabs and other gas and oil-gas atoms :-)

        Last year, a total of 32% of electricity was generated using renewable energy sources (RES) in Germany. But only with a significant increase in installed capacity of renewable energy sources, there was no significant increase in electricity in Germany in 2016 for these types, and even decreased in the wind. The difference in seasons is even more significant. In winter, when energy is most in demand, renewable energy sources are not able to cover 5% of Germany's electricity needs. Here is a link to a very interesting article on this subject. Http: //renen.ru/elektroenergetika-germa
        nii-osnovnye-itogi-2016 /
      4. 0
        17 December 2017 20: 57
        Quote: vlad_vlad
        The author is a clear fan of nuclear energy. has the right, but why not "keep silent" the facts?

        the cost of nuclear energy is killed when you start to include the cost of disposing of radioactive waste here. This was one of the main reasons in Germany when the state said - "and now USE!" Those. a private company should pay for the plant’s expenditures for the atomic station and expenses for 100500 years for disposal.

        UTB in Russia, the atom of the station is a state. And it is not private business that pays out of profits for disposal, but the state (i.e. you are from your taxes).

        I'm not a fan of windmills, but I think that with each year their cost will be lower and they have the right to have some market share :-)

        for reference - in Germany 20 years ago the share of energy from renewable sources (wind turbines, etc.) was 3%. Last year already 30%.

        Greetings to Gazprom, Arabs and other gas and oil-gas atoms :-)

        You think in vain. The wind will NEVER become cheaper than the same coal. That is, coal over the centuries will die in general, then it will be possible to think of something about it. You can not raise the power of the wind generator to lawlessness. The wind will never blow with other, completely different than now, parameters. You can not raise the wind generator up to lawlessness. So, the efficiency limit of this type of generation is already very close.
        Further. Efficiency is such a thing that appears in any form of ownership. Although it’s public, it’s even private. And in general, there is no difference, it will be effective even in Germany, even in Russia, and you need to fight for it.
    9. +4
      11 December 2017 13: 29
      Do not demonize modern coal-fired TPPs; their environment is not bad at all, well, maybe a little worse than gas ones. Take an interest in the Internet how they are arranged or search for the keyword "fluidized bed burning".
    10. +5
      11 December 2017 14: 04
      Quote: Shurale
      In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials,

      What to say? I will tell you in your words.
      Quote: Shurale
      "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag"

      Why is that? everything is simple, unlike you, I came across this "radioactive radiation of coal", and with a friend who works in the boiler room, he voiced a similar legend to me, I took a dosimeter, and checked their boiler room, which has been in operation for more than 25 years, no radiation, there is not even a background increase, both in the hall, in boilers, and in a coal pit. Maybe coal is wrong?)))))
      Now on the topic, if memory serves me, a friend put a couple of solar panels, 150 watts each, with all the pribludy attached, this miracle cost him about 150 tyrov, well, what do you think of the price tag. Well, a person has money, he can install this device for himself, God bless him, I think that such costs are not worth such an investment, it is about 10 years of payment for electricity.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 17: 28
        Just look at https://smartsystems21.ru/products/hevel-hvl-105-
        fulfillment-3
    11. +2
      11 December 2017 14: 22
      I met calculations that wind farms do not generate energy for the life of the energy, which reimburses the costs of its creation, a coefficient of 0,9 - 0,95.
      1. +1
        11 December 2017 15: 36
        If they do not produce, then in Germany there will be a collapse with energy.

        It remains to wait a bit ....
        1. +4
          11 December 2017 19: 47
          Quote: Krabik
          If they do not produce, then in Germany there will be a collapse with energy.
          It remains to wait a bit ....

          Banal "divorce" people on the "green" grandmother ... lol
          1. +5
            11 December 2017 20: 13
            Quote: stalkerwalker
            Banal "divorce" people on the "green" grandmother.

            No. Let me disagree with you, Colleague! hi Divorce is just not trivial, but very scientific, even high-tech. The people love this. Yes
            1. +5
              11 December 2017 20: 28
              Quote: Angry Guerrilla
              Divorce is just not trivial, but very scientific, even high-tech. The people love this.

              From then!
              The same "divorce" as in the case of electric cars .....
              I can understand this in the case of passenger cars. But the main tractors clearly do not fit into this number. It’s easier to launch freight trolleybuses with trams.
              1. +1
                11 December 2017 21: 34
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                freight tram trolleybuses

                In the 70s, city buses / trolleybuses with flywheels were actively tested. I remember exactly what they were doing in Lviv in the early 70s. What is the situation with this now? Not aware of Ilyich incident?
                1. +2
                  11 December 2017 22: 36
                  Quote: Angry Guerrilla
                  What is the situation with this now?

                  I remember such an interesting program "This is you can" .... And there this topic was sucked up. Mass and overall characteristics did not fit into the requirements.
                  1. +1
                    11 December 2017 22: 56
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    I remember such an interesting program "That you can"

                    Yes, there, and at a higher level, they dealt with this problem at the youth level (it was like that, although I don’t remember ...) KB of the Lviv Bus Plant. It seems like a couple of pieces went around Lviv. they had several inventions on this subject. Faced in Ukraine in the early 90's with one of the residents of Lviv in a hotel in Krivoy Rog. He buzzed all my ears about the flywheels ...
                2. +3
                  12 December 2017 09: 58
                  In transport, this is not the case due to the same gyroscopic effect. In the stationary version, everything is simpler, although at megawatt capacities it is necessary to take care of compensating for the precession of the earth's axis. And so there are industrial UPSs on this effect, they work normally, the resource and reliability are much higher than the battery analogues. Yes, even at nuclear power plants there is a power supply mode of the MCC due to turbine run-out during an accident, also flywheels are peculiar.
                  1. +1
                    12 December 2017 20: 41
                    Quote: vadimtt
                    too, because the flywheels are peculiar.

                    Well, not even peculiar, but the real flywheels Yes
                3. 0
                  12 December 2017 16: 59
                  You are not talking about this for an hour?
                  https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/101472/
              2. 0
                12 December 2017 17: 05
                In the case of city buses is also good. The main thing is that there is enough charge for the whole day. Rides during the day, charges at night ...
                1. +1
                  12 December 2017 20: 47
                  Quote: Gregory_78
                  Rides during the day, charges at night

                  There, it was exclusively about using flywheels to ensure that the vehicle begins to move after a stop. Or am I misunderstanding something? what I'm sorry then! request Old, drunk, sick ... recourse
            2. +2
              13 December 2017 10: 56
              Quote: wicked partisan
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              Banal "divorce" people on the "green" grandmother.

              No. Let me disagree with you, Colleague! hi Divorce is just not trivial, but very scientific, even high-tech. The people love this. Yes

              As well as solar panels with batteries from Ilon Mask, as a result, the life cycle of these pribludy goes more expensive per kilowatt of energy, plus an even more expensive disposal of batteries after the end of their service life. Green energy is profanity with the aim of taking the market from competitors and making a profit due to suckers of consumers.
    12. +1
      11 December 2017 16: 03
      Quote: Shurale
      The biggest problem is that the bulk of the world's power plants are coal. In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in simply terrifying quantities

      in physics there is no such appalling “horrifying number”
    13. 0
      11 December 2017 17: 18
      Calling creative shit, even if that is so, is not correct. This is just creatiFFcheg (in your opinion). You, mil pardon, to begin the topic of disclosure, continue ... And, after that, DISCUSSION will come ...)))
    14. +1
      11 December 2017 20: 32
      I totally agree! In Novocherkassk, we have at our side both nuclear power plants and thermal power plants. From one, the most noticeable is the sudden yellowing of the leaves of chestnuts in the very beginning of summer after rains. As for people, I’m on duty at the hospital and it is during the wind from the nuclear power plant that there is an increase in all kinds of crises and other things. And the work of the Novocherkassk station, which is now working at an incomprehensible angle, is noticeable in the snow, which turns gray in 2-3 days. That's why I am for wind farms.
    15. +2
      11 December 2017 20: 39
      coal-water slurry brings coal-fired TPPs in terms of environmental efficiency to the level of TPPs supplied with fuel oil, alteration of fuel supply equipment, and for injectors - cheap (in the sense of a very small :)) - this is first ...
      - Nobody has ever argued about the inefficiency of wind and solar power plants - this is a stupid cut in the budget - nothing more, so many corporations feed on this ...
      1. 0
        12 December 2017 13: 16
        In the framework of the program of research and development of clean coal technologies, called “CO02-poor TPPs” in Germany, there is a good opportunity to significantly increase efficiency. In this case, three strategies are considered:
        1. Development of efficient technologies. These include amalgamation of aspirations:
        • to high-temperature gas turbines;
        • combustion of coals with low emissions;
        • approbation of new heat-resistant materials for both steam and gas turbines and steam generators.
        2. New research on coal-fired TPP technologies:
        • Combustion of coal dust under pressure in combination with PTU;
        • combustion of exclusively dried brown coals;
        • integrated coal gasification, in combination with CCGT;
        • combustion in IKS with preliminary partial gasification of coals;
        3. Development of a set of measures, such as, for example, a fairly extensive testing of new working fluids at supercritical steam parameters.
    16. +1
      11 December 2017 20: 55
      Quote: Shurale
      So I think it’s not entirely correct to criticize wind generators ...

      A high price means that these same wind generators spent a lot of resources, including coal. The problem is that green energy is not self-sufficient, the same coal is spent on its functioning, as a result, not reducing emissions, but increasing.
    17. +3
      11 December 2017 21: 06
      I can’t say anything globally, but my village in the north was heated exclusively with coal. Six large boiler houses. By spring, everything was black. I worked at OMYAGP (Experimental Methodical Nuclear Geophysical Party). This is such an accelerator the size of a 3-storey residential building. The container with the rock is irradiated with hard gamma radiation and emits itself for about 8-9 seconds. Spectroanalysis shows the content of mainly heavy metals. So here I am for what. No matter how much the radiation level was measured in the spring in the village, there was always a norm. There was a slight excess on the arsenopyrite device. But in the village covered with coal dust there is no.
    18. +1
      11 December 2017 21: 24
      in Europe alone, half of the households are heated by coal. Electricity from Coal makes up one-third of everything ... There isn’t enough gas for everyone, and show-offs and anti-Russian hysteria do not add anything positive to Europe. The author correctly noted that windmills are only income for producers. For consumers, these are big problems.
    19. +2
      12 December 2017 00: 00
      On October 8, 1975, the famous scientist academician Pyotr Kapitsa made a report on the topic “Energy and Physics” (easily searched at the Institute) at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Based on the basic concepts of physics, he proved that existing sources of alternative energy (with the exception of nuclear energy) cannot fundamentally replace industrial energy generation.
      P.L.Kapitsa notes that, whatever the source of energy can be considered, it can be characterized by two parameters: the density of energy - that is, its amount per unit volume - and the speed of its transmission (propagation). The product of these quantities is the maximum power that can be obtained from a unit surface using energy of this type.
      Further, analyzing the types of alternative energy, he showed that all of them (with the exception of nuclear) are fundamentally not promising for industrial generation energy and can matter only on a small scale, for example, for domestic needs. With this report, P.L.Kapitsa, in fact, "buried" alternative energy in 1975.
      Currently, the conceptual conclusions of P.L.Kapitsa have already been comprehended by many in relation to the current state of alternative energy. The projection of the fundamental conclusions of P.L. Kapitsa on various types of modern alternative energy, such as wind energy, hydrogen energy, bioenergy, etc., also leads to the conclusion that their prospects are limited for industrial generation.
      The general conclusion is that alternative energy can be applied only on a small scale, as an addition (and even in small proportions) to industrial generation, for example, for domestic needs in remote areas.
      It would be good for us all to understand this more quickly, so as not to throw away "money down the drain" (in the literal and figurative sense of the word).
      One cannot disagree with the author of this article, especially since he confirmed his opinion with figures that are hard to argue with ...
    20. 0
      12 December 2017 04: 23
      I heard that coal combustion products are radioactive. The Japanese even offered to process open landfills near Vladivostok
    21. The comment was deleted.
    22. 0
      17 December 2017 14: 43
      Quote: Shurale
      The biggest problem is that the bulk of the world's power plants are coal. In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in horrific amounts, they try to ignore this part of the problem. Now you understand why many developed countries are struggling to get away from coal stations even in unprofitable ways. Wind, tidal, hydro, solar panels, in France, in my opinion, in general, only atomic ones remained. Any - just not coal. So I think it’s not entirely correct to criticize wind generators ...

      The author did not open the topic.
      "Kreotif guano - aftir mudag" ... (C)

      Any mining operations are pulled to the surface of the ore, and the finished product having increased radioactivity. Shudder, salt. And if small fractions fly out into the atmosphere after smoke exhausters at the station, a small fraction fall into your lungs from a small fraction, then in borsch you completely consume what you dug from great depths. A gas stove leaves radionuclides not available when turned off. In the cement of brickwork, in the wood of the table ..... In the spoon with which you stir the tea. Knowledge adds sorrow. Very happy are those who do not have higher education. It is harmful, especially for neurasthenic natures. That is why miners, of whom there are more than one million in our country, do not die of radiation at all.
  2. +9
    11 December 2017 06: 54
    Anyone familiar with physics understands that development is impossible without nuclear power. All these * green * and other zealots of nature require a lot of things, but they are not ready to give up the conveniences of civilization, it seems: - * Suddenly a magician will fly in a blue helicopter ... *.
    The simplicity of views is attractive for * ordinary * inhabitants *, not burdened with knowledge, and of course for those who use these * simple * citizens.
    1. +4
      11 December 2017 07: 08
      Quote: Vasily50
      Anyone familiar with physics understands that development is impossible without nuclear energy

      I am familiar with physics, I think that development is possible without nuclear energy, development is possible without a wheel, but why
    2. +7
      11 December 2017 10: 56
      I would clarify a bit. Industrial development is not possible.
      Those. for industry, all "green energy" is useless because it is expensive.
      But for home consumption, namely for individual houses - an alternative is quite suitable. Moreover, the most stable in this regard is the system when the thermocouple effect is used to produce electricity (there is only one restriction to dig the earth).
      And windmills and solar panels are more dependent on the weather.
      That is, based on existing technologies, depending on the location, you can always get a completely non-volatile house without the use of internal combustion engines.

      As for production, so far only nuclear power and hydro power. taxis. It is possible that something based on a thermocouple will work if one end is dipped in magma and the other end is in ice.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 17: 31
        "when the thermocouple effect is used to produce electricity" Can you read more? interested.
        1. +1
          11 December 2017 17: 47
          Everything is very simple. We take specially selected plates of metals. We heat one plate, cool the other. The result is email. current. The larger the difference, the greater the current.
          This type of food was described back in the 30s of the last century in the book “The Secret of Two Oceans”, where the Soviet submarine used this effect to charge batteries.
    3. +3
      11 December 2017 11: 53
      Vasily50, 06:54. *** Anyone familiar with physics understands that development is impossible without nuclear energy. All these * green * and other zealots of nature require a lot of things, but they are not ready to give up the conveniences of civilization, it seems: - * A wizard suddenly arrives in a blue helicopter ... *.
      The simplicity of views is attractive for * ordinary * inhabitants *, not burdened with knowledge, and of course for those who use these * simple * citizens. *** Not everything is so simple in this world. Not everything is so effective in the world of capital. Capitalism is a great illusionist deceiver. Capitalism has been well trained in managing consciousness through advertising. Conservationists are kind of good. But! Who needs it from the world of capital, if the main thing is 300% ??? Who believes that capital will sponsor its grave digger? But it looks like a multi-path. Declare everything sucks. Offer your product. Make a profit. But the protection of nature !? What did we have with the oil platform? Enviroment protection? Is this platform the only one in the world? There is still a bloody Putin regime! And what will happen if this regime does not supply carbon ?! And there will be a Miracle! Carbon will supply the most democratic regime in the world !!! And where not to deliver, there to give loans and control! But windmills must be done, not mined! Need to do! And you can plant them, if not extract. But what is interesting! Green technology, green technology! But! Shale gas is produced, shale oil is produced and even extracted from bitumen sands! The question is. Haha goat button accordion, if there is green energy ?! hi
    4. 0
      11 December 2017 17: 30
      Well, the wizard “IN THE HOLIDAY HELICOPTER” has been there for a long time ... People (namely PEOPLE), not elephants, Hypopotamus-hippos-monkeys-sperm whales ... a populated parrot ...
      BASIL 50! How can these, others be convinced that they are LEARNING ?! !!!
      That pre-educated stupid people put their heads in the jaws of a crocodile (who studied on the training of the ancestors of the pre-educated) ... ???
    5. 0
      11 December 2017 19: 10
      I have been living in my own house for the sixth year in conditions of absolute autonomy. I do not use a gas generator. Facilities - not deprived.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 20: 16
        What is the source of energy?
        type, power, price ?!
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 20: 45
          http://www.сам-себе-электростанция.рф/ Это - мой личный сайт, там все это написано.
          But I emphasize - since then prices have changed for everything, and simply copying someone else's system may not lead to the expected result.
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 20: 50
            you forgive your biography I am not interested in how much it costs to install a 15 kW windmill? !!!
            1. 0
              12 December 2017 21: 28
              Minimum 20% of the cost
              1. 0
                12 December 2017 21: 53
                you are a demagogue
                I understand correctly that you will come and put a 15 kW windmill for 4 pieces of bucks? !!!
                1. 0
                  13 December 2017 09: 30
                  What specific windmill? Where and in what conditions? You, as NOT a demagogue, generally understand that it is generally impossible to speak seriously about the cost of installation in absentia? Therefore, I wrote - at least 20% of the cost of equipment. And in the place there are always some moments that can affect the complexity in one direction or another.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2017 13: 58
                    Quote: nickd55
                    Therefore, I wrote - at least 20% of the cost of equipment.

                    what do you mean cheaper from the cost of equipment, do you steal? !!!
                    put a question on another Kaliningrad region Pravdinsky district
                    15 kW windmill
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2017 21: 45
                      Are you feeling well? :)
                      If a wind generator from the manufacturer in a complete set (with a mast) costs, for example, 400 thousand rubles, then installation and commissioning will cost at least 20% of this amount or 80 thousand rubles. :)
                      I will repeat it for the third time - windmills are very different and I am not a sorcerer in order to evaluate the time-consuming complexity of installing an unknown instance to me.
                      In addition, you will need to hire equipment for lifting and installing elements (this is also the cost of the customer).
                      As for travel expenses - this is generally a separate song. :)
                      1. 0
                        14 December 2017 08: 32
                        that's what I wrote about, you vparivat people chukhni obviously unprofitable but promise awesome benefits
                        your name is not fox alice ?!
            2. 0
              12 December 2017 21: 30
              And I did not offer you to read my biography. And to type on many pages the text that I wrote a long time ago - I don’t see the point.
              1. 0
                12 December 2017 21: 53
                Yes, you write nonsense, I'm sorry, and I looked at your interview exactly to the point of stupidity about the kettle and conder
                1. 0
                  13 December 2017 09: 33
                  If you are not an empty balabol and are able to answer for your words - then please, specifically, what did I say something about at the "ravings" level? :)
                  If you do not answer this question, then you are just a balabol.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2017 14: 08
                    Quote: nickd55
                    - then please bring specifically what I said something at the level of "nonsense"? :)

                    nonsense in what you say specifically, everything is streamlined, you do not give price and payback parameters even to your own home system, you are stupidly trying to push the trade in green bullshit proving that it is profitable only on the ground that during the accident everyone was without light and you with the light

                    can prove by numbers the benefits of YOUR OFFERS
                    invested - X rubles
                    received - Y kW
                    saved - Z
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2017 22: 04
                      Actually, all this has been described for a long time on my site (I have already copied a significant part here twice for the lazy), but you don’t want to read anything. :)
                      My system paid off immediately and repeatedly, as our valiant power engineers painted 6-7 million scars for my neighbors 1,5-2 years ago for electrifying private houses. And I just wondered about why on earth would I sponsor the development of slow and greedy networks? As a result, he took and made his own system, having spent 4-5 times less on this and for the sixth year now I’m not paying anyone. :) Not to mention other pluses and unique useful experience.
                      For the gifted, I repeat - I'm not a store. :) This can be convenient and useful not only during accidents, but already for purely economic reasons (I will not repeat it).
                      By numbers I have ALREADY proved here (and not only). Do you even know how to read? :) About 3,5 rubles / kWh is the result that I can provide in a hybrid SES in the south of the country now, which is generally several times cheaper than tariffs for small businesses. The full alignment of all costs for 25 years of operation, I already gave in the whole article.
                      And bullshit, in my opinion, is sitting somewhere in your head. :) It seems that you are just freaking out, not knowing what else to suck from your finger. :)
                      If all this is bullshit - why don't you just pass quietly by? :)
  3. +7
    11 December 2017 07: 37
    such an impression. that this is an advertisement from Rosatomprom :-)
    1. +4
      11 December 2017 08: 13
      Quote: sa-ag
      such an impression. that this is an advertisement from Rosatomprom :-)

      Of course, the electorate needs to be reassured, otherwise the patriot will wake up and find out that Russia is no longer an energy superpower and supplies in the same volumes are not needed in "completely dependent Europe" ...
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 22: 29
        And you look. already woke up and shit on the blades bring down.
    2. +3
      11 December 2017 10: 49
      May be. But, most likely, cruel reality. Itself is a bit of a topic, though in micro-wind energy (up to 10 kW), here it has a place to be, where the wind allows. And this is because the greed of “our” Russian oligarchs from the energy sector is off scale and the connection costs a lot of money. Or where it’s not possible at all. Here for this, there are good and environmentally (and simply) safe solutions.
      Here is an interesting option for a private house in an area with an average annual wind speed of about 3-5 m / s.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TspdI4Sd1o
      Naturally, if we still apply a reasonable simplification of the design, which is quite possible, as our craftsmen and firms from around the world prove.
      1. +1
        11 December 2017 12: 01
        NordU, 10:49 a.m. Probably for a private house or cottage, a windmill, what you need! A wind turbine for a summer residence can also be made from a generator. To increase the speed, put the gearbox from the gearbox. Then, through the converter, transfer to AC 220.
        1. +2
          11 December 2017 14: 29
          Everything is possible, but transmission reduces efficiency. The design in the photo allows the use of an ultra-quiet generator for low wind flow.
        2. +2
          11 December 2017 16: 04
          Quote: Region 34
          To increase the speed, put the gearbox from the gearbox. Then, through the converter, transfer to AC 220.

          Oh, how simple and cheap, you can store the surplus in a bag and in a shed, and if you blow it yourself .. Where there is no way out, I agree: we do not stand for price, and when there is, competition with cost, then the environment rests .. China fat walked up, now you can think about the environment ...
        3. +1
          11 December 2017 19: 15
          A self-made windmill will fly away on the first hurricane. In each particular place its own system of individual configuration is rational. In the southern regions of the country, if there is a network, it makes no sense to communicate with windmills in general, a hybrid SES can even provide a zero annual balance of consumption from the network (taking into account the micro-generation program, which will begin to work next year).
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 22: 25
            It depends on what. Here is such that in the photo, it will not fly away at 30-40 m / s.
            1. 0
              12 December 2017 21: 34
              Self-made - will fly away in any performance. Windmill is a fairly high-tech product, if only because it requires high accuracy in the manufacture and balancing of all mechanics, as well as a competent and multi-level protection system.
  4. +4
    11 December 2017 07: 42
    The author is not quite right; his reasoning is valid only for industry. With the delivery of electricity to the final consumer, the figure changes. Let’s say in the Far East and other not densely populated areas (farms, tractor brigades, small villages) it’s more profitable to build wind farms, because permanent repair of networks is also not cheap.
    The result in the civilian sector and small enterprises of the wind farm is more profitable hi
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 09: 04
      Windmills are beneficial in the United States. There are conditions. Especially in those mountainous areas where they stand. But for Europe it is a utopia.
      1. +2
        11 December 2017 19: 49
        Quote: yurasumy
        But for Europe it is a utopia.

        Nah ... lol These are jobs. Both in Europe and in China ..... fellow
      2. 0
        12 December 2017 12: 01
        Quote: yurasumy
        But for Europe it is a utopia.

        Well, the fact that the Netherlands periodically dumps surplus electricity generated by windmills to Germany is an objective reality, in my opinion, you even have to pay to get it, such a negative tariff
        1. +3
          12 December 2017 18: 34
          Quote: sa-ag
          Well, the Netherlands periodically dump surplus electricity generated by windmills to Germany

          "... Notice - I didn’t say that ..."
          Instability the magnitude of the total flow of e / energy - this is the Achilles heel of windmills. Today is empty, tomorrow is thick.
          The world navy in the 70-80 of the last century survived the euphoria of the possible use of sails as the main mover of naval vessels. And abandoned this venture. to trust in the forces of nature is a delusion. But a very lucrative business.
    2. +4
      11 December 2017 09: 12
      And the author did not understand a little the essence of all this action with windmills. But the essence there is not cost, and they are not built because they are supposedly cheaper. They are built because theoretically they are more environmentally friendly and do not pollute the environment. Cost in these projects is secondary.
      Well, at the expense of environmental friendliness - this is the topic of another article.
      1. +2
        11 December 2017 10: 53
        As for the environmental friendliness of large wind farms - there is still a big question.
      2. +5
        11 December 2017 12: 33
        Quote: Max Otto
        But the essence there is not cost, and they are not built because they are supposedly cheaper. They are built because theoretically they are more environmentally friendly and do not pollute the environment. Cost in these projects is secondary.

        More precisely, they are more environmentally friendly at the installation site. At the same time, the environmental friendliness of the production of wind farms themselves is usually out of the question.
    3. +1
      11 December 2017 19: 15
      Absolutely.
  5. +10
    11 December 2017 07: 43
    Windmills allegedly work "effectively, only in developed countries that subsidize this type of energy. In countries of the" third "world, windmills either work where it is impossible to build another type of power station or .... do not work. Most recently I was in the Brazilian city of Fortaleza, where several such wind farms have been installed. These wind turbines are standing and are not used. It turned out that the cost of operating wind farms is very high because of the rapid failure of the bearings of the loaded parts due to the horizontal (rather than vertical) arrangement of the rotating shafts. additional line from hydroelectric power station
  6. +4
    11 December 2017 07: 50
    Ah, it's Yuri again! The author, no one ever said that green energy is more economically profitable than traditional! I have not seen a single such message on the VO. And by the way, following the logic of the author, I’ll ask: how can the author evaluate the environmental safety of operation, I emphasize for some, namely operation, green technologies, and why the author is firmly convinced that technologies do not develop in green technologies. There are a couple of questions, but I will save time.
    1. +2
      11 December 2017 09: 06
      The author just writes about what "technology" and how to develop in the "green" energy. This development was theoretically justified and proved back in the 1950's. But he has his own dead end.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 15: 19
        I re-read the article again. There is not a word about any modern technologies in green energy. The power of modern windmills is not modern technology. And why are only windmills and batteries considered? And where is hydropower, PES, etc.? It really creates the feeling that the author is on a salary from Gazprom, Rosneft and Rosatom. But with his articles of this kind, he is just seeking the opposite.
  7. +2
    11 December 2017 07: 54
    It seems to me or the author did not understand the meaning of KIUM? If you ask Google to kindly provide us with a service, we will see that the KIUM is equal to the ratio of the arithmetic mean power to the installed capacity of the electrical installation for a certain period of time. Those. actual / maximum - and for some reason I don’t see any options for increasing KIUM except magically from the air (it sounds twofold against the background of wind turbines). If you touch on nuclear power plants, you should not forget that the builders of nuclear power plants like to disrupt the construction time of blocks (which leads to the cost of the project) and only Koreans in the UAE build their own nuclear power plants according to the plan. Also, do not forget about a very long payback period, which also affects the cost of the loan for the block. Potentially great harm during an accident, of course, modern nuclear power plants are extremely well thought out in terms of protection and the risks are all calculated, the probability of an accident is low. But engineers, like generals, are preparing for past accidents and you do not always know what a peaceful atom can throw out. The problem has not been resolved, not only that of the disposal of radioactive waste, but also simply processing (for most of the spent fuel elements from domestic reactors are located in temporary storage).
    Well, for dessert - one of the divisions of Rosatom is engaged in windproof energy.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 08: 39
      everything should be
      and the wind is also
      Norway will soon (?) drive for export electric \ n if only not from the Russian Federation. wind and others are possible and will become effective.
      and we need such on the ebbs and solar panels.
      fsya our effectiveness --- from poverty.
      30 years ago, gas + coal or fuel oil was in large boiler plants (and + factory settlement)
      now a modular gas or some other and no second fuel-- just go to other housing in the event of an accident
    2. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 07
      Apparently, you did not understand the meaning of KIUM. There are statistics on the operation of nuclear power plants (it is known) and wind farm (also known). Why produce speculation ???
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 13: 06
        And where am I wrong in the meaning of KIUM? Or did you write a comment from the bulldozer?
    3. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 11
      And the construction of windmills is not disrupted.

      They have been engaged in wind energy in various kinds of remote places for a long time, but not exclusively from a good life. As well as solar panels, which, by the way, are more stable. There are simply places where either the wind is constant or the sun, and building hundreds of kilometers of power lines, or carrying extra fuel is unattractive.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 13: 09
        Disruptions in the construction of windmills and gas turbines are not frequent and, due to the relatively low price (compared to nuclear power plants) and less time-consuming construction, the losses are much less. Also, the construction of such types of power plants does not meet any obstacles among residents and the government
  8. idr
    +11
    11 December 2017 07: 56
    It turns out, as always. All the idiots, (America, Europe, China) and the Russians are smart .... Strange, somehow, and not logical.
    It is somehow strange to compare the cost of electricity in Russia and America. And on this basis to draw some far-reaching conclusions.
    Well, now to the point. The cost of generation, in fact, is only one of many rooms the cost of electricity to the consumer. And so what, but in the West they know how to count money. So let's calculate the FAVORABLE to do it there or not profitable.
    For example, in developed Western countries the cost of maintaining networks is more than 50% of the cost of electricity from the consumer, i.e. if in Australia 1 kWh costs about 30 cents, then more than 15 cents goes for the maintenance of networks. The installation cost of solar panels for the home is $ 3899 for the 6.4 KW system
    http://skysolarenergy.com.au/solar/?gclid=CjwKCAi
    A07PRBRBJEiwAS20SIBdHbX8QyRSIDwtgWAfqWEZ25PwOOHdu
    ZHEO_IDWeSmm-2n0G55qhhoCuLIQAvD_BwE
    which will generate about 25 kWh per day or 25x0.3 = 7.5 dollars per day, the payback time will be 3899 / 7.5 = 519 days. Or about 1.4 of the year Even if we assume that the cost of generating electric power = 0, due to the fact that the cost of delivering it to the consumer will be NOT lower than 15 cents for 1 kWh, then the payback period will be only 2.8 of the year ... i.e. having invested 3899 dollars today, through 1.4 years, the average Australian will receive energy for FREE. That's all arithmetic. I'm not talking about the fact that the autonomy and survivability of such a system is ORDERED higher ... Remember how entire cities and regions in Russia freeze during accidents at thermal power plants. During the war, it’s even hard to imagine what will happen in winter. But all you have to do is let the adversary bang on all the little-significant power generators or network facilities ... Having a distributed and very autonomous energy supply system, the task of destroying it will be almost impossible to fulfill ... You think about it ...
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 09: 07
      USA? Did I write like that? Specify a quote? The United States is just great, forcing Europe to build windmills.
      1. idr
        +2
        11 December 2017 09: 51
        1. I re-read my post but didn’t find the glory of the USA ...
        2. In the West, NO ONE WILL FORCE. Only life can be forced, or rather the desire to earn or make a profit. And nothing more.
        3. It all depends on the place. As Chukotka will accept, where Abramovich put the windmills paired with diesel generators. ALL NEEDS TO BE READ.
    2. +2
      11 December 2017 09: 18
      Man, doesn’t it occur to you that you also need to make power lines from wind generators? Moreover, if they are at sea, then this is a separate song.

      Remember how whole cities and regions in Russia freeze during accidents at a thermal power plant


      It’s freezing in your country 404, but in Russia I don’t remember something like that for a long time, especially since an accident at a thermal power plant that would completely cut down the generation needs to be remembered when it happened, and the unified power grids with multiple sources are fine experiencing one-time emergency.

      Australia in itself is a country where “forward 500, back 500” and not a single living soul, it’s nice to put windmills there, and pulling power lines at such distances costs a lot of money, but civilized areas will not survive on windmills.
      1. idr
        +2
        11 December 2017 09: 58
        1. We are not familiar with you ... so I ask you not to poke.
        2. I did not write about windmills. You are probably confusing ... This is the author wrote.
        3. I also did not write about completely cut down generation ... But the fact that strict centralization of energy supply is BAD You think you will not dispute.
        4. In Australia, wind turbines in the overall balance are units of percent. So, there is nothing to do with power lines.
        Best regards
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 11: 42
          Quote: iDr
          . But the fact that tight centralization of energy supply

          In general, in Russia, a distributed power supply system is called the UNEG.
          1. idr
            0
            11 December 2017 12: 34
            Of course distributed. There are many generating capacities throughout Russia. but in cities and for 3, 5 and even 10 and more CHPs I work ... But what percentage of housing / production has a FULLY autonomous power supply? 0.00 ... 1%. Maybe even less
            1. 0
              11 December 2017 15: 47
              Quote: iDr
              Of course distributed. There are many generating capacities throughout Russia. but in cities and for 3, 5 and even 10 and more CHPs I work ... But what percentage of housing / production has a FULLY autonomous power supply? 0.00 ... 1%. Maybe even less

              You reason like that because you do not understand the principles of building an energy system in Russia. There is no such thing as autonomous power supply. All consumers are divided into 3 categories. Enterprises almost always belong to the 1st category and must have at least 2 guaranteed sources of power supply. This is usually its own TPP or GTTES, or at least two inputs from different power sources. Housing belongs to consumers of the 3rd category, i.e. non-responsible consumers. It follows that we cannot have “autonomous consumers”.
            2. 0
              11 December 2017 19: 20
              Probably the only one I am and now (with my help) is a whole series of private houses. :)
          2. 0
            11 December 2017 18: 09
            Quote: CONTROL
            Since then, I have been reluctant to use microwaves - I was convinced of the destruction of proteins ...

            Share the analysis method.
    3. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 51
      remind us about frozen cities and areas in a country with specifics ....
      1. idr
        +1
        11 December 2017 10: 44
        No problem.
        Accidents at TPPs and boiler houses in the Russian Federation, leading to major interruptions in heat supply. Dossier
        More on TASS:
        http://tass.ru/info/3977533
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 11: 32
          looked, accidents are listed, but there are no frozen cities on the list
          1. idr
            0
            11 December 2017 12: 37
            You were just lucky not to be in such a city once in your life ... Lucky ... But I had such an experience ... God forbid ...
            1. 0
              11 December 2017 13: 11
              I live in Yakutsk - a little more than a month ago, an accident at a power plant, and in December 2002, an accident at a power plant, so .... hi
          2. 0
            11 December 2017 19: 22
            Several years ago, half of Krasnodar and all suburban villages plunged into darkness for 5 days and many began to freeze, and I watched TV in my warm house about it. "Freezing rain" is called.
            1. 0
              11 December 2017 20: 18
              Quote: nickd55
              A few years ago, half of Krasnodar and all suburban villages plunged into darkness for 5 days

              once again what do you have (not in the sense) power, type ?!
              1. 0
                11 December 2017 20: 48
                "At the request of the workers," everything has long been described on my website: http: //www.sam-sebe-electric power station.rf/inzhener-vs
                em-rebjatam-primer / sistema-jelektrosnabzhenija /
                1. 0
                  11 December 2017 20: 52
                  Are you from the liberals? !!
                  answer a simple question is very strange
                  how much does what you have installed and how much power? !!
                  everything is simple and specific, two "numbers"
                  1. 0
                    12 December 2017 21: 38
                    I repeat again - two digits can not do here. I personally copied it twice for you from where you didn’t want to read it. The third time I will not do this, I'm sorry.
                    1. 0
                      12 December 2017 21: 55
                      enough listen
                      exactly two digits output power and price, ALL
                      you don’t have any data what you are trying to get involved with a smart look it is not clear what on your site
                      1. 0
                        13 December 2017 09: 58
                        If for some reason you do not know how to read, then I inform you - I do not "push in" anything to anyone.
                        I’m not a store (I NEED to sell more quickly exactly what is here and now in the warehouse, and not what the customer needs), I don’t have and will not have any “price list” (you can don’t look!). But I know and know how to better than these stores to solve the problems of their own energy supply in any situation, since I literally and long LIVE IN THIS. I maintain direct contacts with a number of equipment manufacturers. In addition, I deeply own the topic of energy-efficient construction, based on 15 years of experience. Everyone who turns to me CAM gets a calculation of individual systems optimized for specific goals and objectives, a list of the right equipment with optimal logistics for procurement from manufacturers, and a method for proper installation. In necessary cases, people also attract me to do work. I’m not interested in taking and selling anything at all costs, I like to SOLVE PROBLEMS, this is the essence and difference.
                        And still a lot of time it takes me to train and simply inform people on those issues in the field of energy-efficient solutions that are not covered much in the media.
                        That's it.
    4. +2
      11 December 2017 10: 59
      Now count the controllers and batteries (with a peak power of approx. 5 kW - for an electric kettle, iron, vacuum cleaner, etc., I’ll keep silent about heating and electric stove) with a replacement every couple of years for such a “home” windmill, annual revision of the windmill (from a few days to weeks), legislative restrictions on the construction of high-rise buildings (mast of a windmill) and infrasound, which is harmful to health - and now, the miracle evaporated.
      The cost of electricity increased by 2–3 times, the windmill needs to be moved outside the village, so the network still needs to be serviced,. And the mast with the stretch marks will take a few hundred parts, at least (this is for a 5-kW windmill). So add to the cost of equipment and zemlyatse.
      And in Russia there are few places with stable strong winds, the average annual wind speed in the Russian Federation is 4 m / s.
      So in our country, wind and solar panels need to be installed only where other methods of generating electric power are even more expensive - for example, a geodetic post somewhere on the island, or a distant capture in the taiga (if the owners can afford it).
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 19: 33
        Probably more than I know on this topic, no one can tell me. Yes, any windmill is a mechanic that needs attention, therefore, where there is a network, it is possible to use only solar stations of a hybrid type - with a minimum of battery, taking into account the statistics of accidents in networks. The microgeneration program, which I initiated almost 2 years ago, will increase the attractiveness of such solutions next year.
        Height restrictions for household windmills do not play any role, since there is no need to put such windmills at 30-40 meters. With a standard speed of rotation of such windmills of hundreds of revolutions per minute, no infrasound can exist in principle.
        In the south of the country now the cost of solar electricity can be much cheaper than from a wall outlet.
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 20: 46
          Quote: nickd55
          In the south of the country now the cost of solar electricity can be much cheaper than from a wall outlet.

          Yes?!!!
          can you name the power and price of such a miracle ?!
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 21: 47
            There is no "miracle" here, there is simply a lack of necessary information and persistent prejudice among many.
            If you still do not understand this, then my own system is autonomous, and above I wrote about hybrid-type solar stations - with a minimum of batteries, which can produce energy cheaper than from an outlet. Here is my article from where you don’t want to read anything (written back in March, and since then, solar panels have become even cheaper):
            23.03.2017
            Inspired by correspondence with skeptics ...
            Thoughts aloud about the "payback" of a solar power plant.
            Inspired by correspondence with skeptics ...

            To begin with, the term “payback period” itself, I think is not very correct to apply to this topic, it is much more reasonable to talk about economic feasibility in relation to a specific technical solution in a particular place for specific goals and objectives.
            In fact, after all, none of us thinks to consider the payback period for a personal car or a washing machine? If you take into account that you can ride a bus or bicycle (or even walk on foot), and wash it in the old-fashioned way on a washboard, then these technical devices familiar to us will never pay off.

            And now, let's move on:
            It is advisable to plan and design a non-volatile house / farm / store initially in such a way as to immediately take into account a number of technical solutions that can reduce the cost of operation in the future (which few people are thinking about now). But it is the latter that already plays an increasing role in the total cost of ownership of any object!
            Even the land itself is desirable to choose, taking into account a number of factors:
            - natural and climatic conditions inherent in this place,
            - local materials and resources, a rational choice that will be important for future use,
            - effective architectural solutions, optimal layout of the functional areas of the site itself, buildings, structures and premises inside,
            - the possibility of a reasonable turn around the world and adjusting the size of the openings in order to reduce heat loss,
            - Logistics of all future movements, so that later you will spend precious time not on a meaningless downtime in traffic jams, since time is also a resource that should be treasured.
            The use of energy-efficient solutions in a future autonomous or partially connected building / structure to networks will allow expanding the choice of plots or even maximizing the freedom of such a choice, reducing the cost of a plot of land at times, and sometimes even by an order of magnitude compared to those options where there are all communications. Naturally, this difference in costs can be invested in providing one's own energy to gain a reasonable level of independence.
            It is possible to significantly reduce or completely eliminate the expense item for the maintenance and operation of reserve and other gas and diesel generators, which are used in countless numbers throughout the south of the country. Then the passive reserve system can turn into an active one, which without energy costs constantly produces energy itself. And in the North of Russia, diesel generators are still the main source of power supply in many remote areas.
            Since any stick is always about two ends, that is why it is always necessary to start with the optimization of the consumption system - both in the form of modernization of the equipment used, and through the rationalization of consumption regimes. There is no economic point in wasting resources to compensate for unreasonable needs!
            If you have a network, it often makes no sense to plan full autonomy, it’s more reasonable to design a hybrid system with a small number of batteries (or without them at low network failure), which will provide a reserve in case of an accident (instead of a gas generator), and can increase available power (if there are restrictions), and it will automatically give priority to the consumption of solar energy, reducing consumption from the network, without losing a single watt (after making the expected decisions on micro-generation at the level of the Government and federal legislators).
            Solar energy, for example, in the Kuban in many places may now be cheaper than the grid, especially after the introduction of the so-called "social norms" this year.
            Consider this in the example below.
            All costs for a hybrid system, in which 5 kW of the total rated power of solar panels, now amount to about half a million rubles with a tendency to a gradual decrease in cost.
            During the estimated time of its service (25 years), it will generate about 7000 x 25 years = 175000 kWh of electricity.
            Let's make important corrections here:
            - Suppose, during this time, you have to change three times that small amount of gel batteries that will only work in the event of an accident in the network - this is about 100 thousand rubles. Instead of gel, it will be possible to immediately use shell or lithium, then there is a high probability that the former in the buffer mode will last for up to 15-20 years, and the latter for all 25 years.
            - also suppose that some more amount will be spent on the repair of some equipment. From many years of practice working with one well-known Russian manufacturer, it can be assumed that there will be relatively few cases of equipment breakdown, and the repair itself will be inexpensive (usually within 5-6 thousand rubles), then here you can lay with a margin for all 25 years, say, another 50000 rubles (just in case).
            Total, we have all the costs of about 650000 rubles for a system that will produce at least 175000 kWh (it can actually produce more, since the factory panels will continue to work further, however, with lower productivity).
            And now we take and divide the total costs by the amount of energy produced and get the estimated cost of one kWh = 3,7 rubles (!).
            On the other hand, the cost of mains electricity will inevitably increase during this time, and, of course, quite seriously.
            It can be assumed that after 25 years - to a level of at least 10-12 rubles / kWh or even more, that is, the average value of the cost of kWh from the network over these 25 years can be estimated at about 7 rubles for most regions of the European part of Russia.
            And now, compare these two figures - the average 7 rubles / kWh from the network and the average 3,7 rubles / kWh from the sun now (with the prospect of an inevitable increase in the first figure and a further decrease in the second).
            For reference:
            - already now in the cities of the Krasnodar Territory the tariff for the population is 4,38 rubles, and for those living in the SNT - about 5,5 rubles (including losses),
            - from July 1, all tariffs will rise again, and if the “social norm” is exceeded and the benefits are not provided, the tariff will already reach almost 7 rubles.
            - Commercial tariffs for small and medium-sized businesses in the Kuban are now already at the level of 7,5 to 9 rubles.
            Therefore, for the entire South of the country, the prospect of early achievement of the calculated average annual level for the estimated 25 years of operation of the system looks VERY real, to say the least.
            It should also be noted that your own power plant with the help of renewable energy will allow:
            - forget like a nightmare all the standard bustle and “dancing with a tambourine” around gas generators and reduce the cost of such a decision to provide a reserve,
            - free up a significant amount of time for the reason stated above,
            - clean the air from the exhaust gases of gas generators.
            Separately, I mention the problem of failure of complex household appliances and equipment due to poor-quality network power supply (here, it is also possible to reduce costs and waste precious time).
            I draw your attention to the fact that the calculations above did not take into account the figures for the costs of the gas generators themselves and operating costs (which could only improve the result of the calculations). For now, we will proceed from the worst case for assessing the economy of the issue.
            In my opinion, such a method of assessing the economic component is much more correct than a simple and very controversial division of the current cost of an SES (solar power plant) by the current network tariff, which does not take into account the many critical costs for the estimated life of the unit.

            Now everyone can think and calculate their money. :)
        2. +2
          12 December 2017 05: 08
          Quote: nickd55
          Probably more than I know on this topic, no one can tell me.

          It seems that Zhukovsky, Sabinin and Proskura are resting)).
          Let me remind you, colleague, that with an average annual wind speed of 4 m / s, to obtain the same amount of energy, the swept area and the installation height of the wind wheel tragically increase relative to the wind speed of 9 -10 m / s, for which the rated power of most wind generators is calculated. I hope that for you, as a prominent theorist (and maybe practice), it’s not news that in this case the main dependence for us is, namely, the cost of the entire installation in the complex, is non-linear here. Those. at the same power, the complex windmill-panel-controllers-accumulators for an average annual speed of 4 m / s will be more expensive than a windmill for a speed of 8-9 m / s more than 2 times - this can be 3, 4, and 5 times.
          Once again, hear my message: Russia is a continental country, relatively stable winds are concentrated mainly on the coasts, and for most of the territory of the cap. investing in green power is unprofitable.
          A simple calculation for my household: a 10 kW peak wind generator. to get at least half of the output in my area:
          https://tiu.ru/p193919735-vetrogenerator-kvt-cond
          or; all.html
          this requires the purchase of 20 batteries of 150 a / h, which is very expensive, plus the installation of a tower of 12 meters (obviously you need permission, this is a 4-storey house in height + the departure of a wind wheel), several hundred under stretch marks. As a result, about 1.5 million rubles. This is only one-time. Without annual add. infusions.
          We divide 1500000 into 2 (cost of 1 kW-hour from 1.5 (social norm) to 2.5 rubles, average 2) - 750 thousand kW / h. And in a month I burn in the summer of 250-300, in the winter - up to 400 kW hours. We take the average monthly consumption of 350.
          Total: 178 years using electricity. Even if inflation eats even half, 90 years will remain. And you still need to change the windmill in 10-15 years. We have 90 years against 15. So while the cost of the entire "green" complex is not reduced by 6 times, "by wire" is still cheaper. Well, why then fence the garden?
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 11: 35
            1. I repeat - for the sixth year I have been living in conditions of complete autonomy without the need to use a gas generator. Perhaps this in itself is already talking about something?
            2. I know perfectly well both in theory and in practice the relationship between wind speed and wind turbine productivity.
            3. In the Kuban (where I live) - there are many zones with an average annual wind speed of significantly more than 4 m / s. This is the coast (Taman, Anapa, Novorossiysk, Yeysk, Primorsko-Akhtarsk), and the continental part (Armavir and Kropotkin).
            4. I repeat - in the south of the country now it is already possible to ensure the cost of, for example, solar kWh much lower than from a power outlet. I didn’t consider it in the wind, therefore I can’t judge it and I think that a wind generator for a private house in most cases with a network is not needed at all.
            Do you understand this message of mine? :)
            A wind generator Condor manufactured in Omsk is not an example for calculation at all, because I know what shit they produce there. :)
            I can do the calculation of the OPTIMAL system myself, and, as a rule, it is much more accurate than many (taking into account rich practice).
            1. +2
              12 December 2017 12: 50
              1.
              Quote: nickd55
              Perhaps this in itself is already talking about something?

              Does not speak. In the summer, I also try to do without networks at the dacha, but consumption is minimal. Therefore, enough for lighting with LEDs, TV, etc. triples of small windmills. Sound the annual energy consumption and estimate, please.
              2.
              Quote: nickd55
              I know perfectly well both in theory and in practice the relationship between wind speed and wind turbine performance.

              I was not talking about the performance of a windmill, but about the financial costs of it. Believe me, there are such scientific works too. Read my post carefully.
              3. I was not talking about the blessed Kuban, but about Russia. Read carefully again. If it was exclusively about the Kuban - there would be another alignment.
              4.
              Quote: nickd55
              In the wind - I didn’t count, so I can’t judge

              But judge! And the wind is a more energy-intensive source of green power than sunlight / panels.

              I took into account the windmill, which first fell in the distribution of Yandex. Better, IMHO, will be even more expensive. You have not given a single number. Where are the arguments besides "I"?
              1. 0
                12 December 2017 20: 32
                Estimate for what? :) To my whole house, to the heating system, to the electricity supply system, to the water supply system, to the sewage system? :) For my own expenses made almost 6 years ago? Everything about my house is described in detail on my personal site, but here all the links are deleted.
                Please, here is an excerpt on the power supply system (answer to question No. 6):
                6. Equipment costs?

                Many doubt the reality of my expenses.
                To begin with, I’ll inform you that the figure of 350 thousand rubles applies to all the equipment of the autonomous power supply system (except, of course, for the completely regular expenses for internal wiring in the house). This figure also does not include the costs of my “gravitap” - a supporting metal structure with a shed on the first level. This is already my personal “whim”, because the panels could be placed on the roof of the house, and the windmills on standard or “self-made” mast-extensions, which would entail much lower costs for the placement of these devices. For example, one of those who copied my system at home, found second-hand thick-walled pipes from oil industry workers for nothing and welded both structures (for panels and windmills). It turned out for him about 7-8 thousand rubles per circle with the foundation.

                In order to dispel all doubts about the costs, I will give here the names and the CURRENT retail price of all components as of the beginning of the summer of 2014, which I installed:

                - inverter MAP "Energy" for 6 kW - 51900 rubles.

                - solar panels - 6 pcs each at 150 W at a price of 7200 rubles / pcs and 4 panels at 230 W at a price of 11000 rubles / pc. Total all panels - for a total of 87200 rubles.

                - two wind turbines of 1,5 kW each with a face value of 42000 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

                - solar controller - about 10000 rubles.

                - two windmill controllers of 11000 rubles each - only 22000 rubles.

                - Battery Troyan 105 RE series - 8 pieces of 10500 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

                Only 339100 rubles (three hundred thirty-nine thousand one hundred rubles).

                The rest went to small things - cables, lugs and transportation costs.
                If we take the same type of panels of 200 W each (9 pieces to gain about the same power as mine), then it will cost not 87200 rubles, but 8100x9 = 72900 rubles, that is, even less by almost 15000 rubles.

                So there is NO rumors in the figure of 350 thousand rubles - NO.
                Additions:
                1 - so far I have systematically changed the configuration of my system (as I had originally expected) - added solar panels and left one wind generator. Thus, now I have a total of 3,8 kW of panels and a 1,5 kW wind generator that I am launching for the winter.
                2 - as of 2017, I can report that for the amount of about 350 thousand rubles it is possible to create a sufficiently powerful hybrid solar system with a minimum of batteries (or network, generally without the latter), which will cover a significant share of the needs of an average house. For autonomous solutions, the total amount of expenses for the equipment of the power supply system of such a house will start from about 400-500 thousand rubles.
              2. 0
                12 December 2017 20: 34
                Here is my excerpt from my news from this spring:
                Energy efficient home with hybrid power system
                for areas of the Kuban without network gas

                Typical project:
                (removed link)

                Living space
                102,3 m²
                Built-up area
                123,0 m²
                Cubature
                271,1 m³
                Height
                6,36m
                Roof pitch
                35°
                Roof area
                200 m²
                Floor height: 2,8m

                Foundation: tape with a monolithic reinforced concrete slab
                Bearing walls - cladding brick 250mm, insulation 150mm (ecowool or stone wool)
                Partitions - cladding brick 120mm
                Exterior finish: 120mm facing brick (Slavic brick factory), hemming roof eaves, gutter system
                Floor: monolithic reinforced concrete
                Roofing: metal tile, insulation 200mm
                Distribution of engineering networks: electricity, sewage, heating, water supply.
                Internal finishing - floor with screed and insulation 50mm, plaster
                Own power supply - a hybrid SES (solar power plant) with a nominal power of 6 kW (maximum 9 kW and peak 13 kW) with solar panels with a total capacity of 8 kW and an annual output of 10500 kWh.
                Heating and hot water supply - an air-to-water heat pump with a 6kW Japanese compressor, water heated floors or radiators.
                Cooking - electric stove.
                The estimated annual demand for network electricity is less than 1500 kWh.

                Advantages:
                the minimum OPERATION COST of the house, which becomes the most important factor against the background of a constant increase in utility bills,
                outstanding energy efficiency with minimal heat loss, the walls of the house serve as a heat accumulator, which reduces the costs of both heating in winter and cooling in summer,
                reliable energy supply system based on domestic equipment, for most of the year the house will be able to provide itself with energy, and the need for mains electricity will mainly arise in the winter, when more than a day is cloudy with low and dense clouds,
                taking into account the expected decisions of the Government in terms of its own generation, the resulting excess of electricity can be sold to the network or offset, which will allow not to waste a single watt of energy and pay off costs much faster,
                now in many regions of the Kuban the cost of “solar” kWh (about 3,5 rubles / kWh for hybrid systems) is much lower than the network tariff,
                the complete absence of dependence on the so-called “social norms” of electricity consumption introduced in the territory of the Krasnodar Territory.

                Estimated cost - not more than 3 million 990 thousand rubles.
            2. 0
              12 December 2017 21: 05
              Mr. Driga of one of your statements that when they turn on the Conder they don’t use the kettle, it’s clear that you are a real “kettle” in matters of energy supply
              1. 0
                13 December 2017 10: 36
                What? :) Where and when exactly did I say that when the air conditioner turns on, you can’t use the kettle? :) You're not a balabol? Confirm Please. :)
                If you do not know how to listen, watch and read, then I will personally inform you - it was somewhere in my speech that we could talk about taking into account the parameters of the inverter used in each system as applied to the total power of the most powerful consumers that are simultaneously turned on, which is understandable. :) And yes - my own inverter fully allows the simultaneous operation of both the air conditioner, the kettle, and a number of standard consumers. And nothing prevents any consumer from installing an inverter with at least a triple power margin, but WHY? :) For example, if in a hybrid system with peak consumption up to 15-20 kW (which is not often the case), the most powerful consumers turn on rarely - WHY put an inverter of such high power? It is enough to ensure the work of all key consumers, and these rare and powerful ones - let them always work only from the network. Thus, the user can divide the power supply system of his house into two parts - redundant in the event of an accident in the network and not redundant, and also - reduce the not entirely justified costs of excess power inverter. Probably, if I were "sucking in" something, then I would try to persuade such a consumer to buy an inverter with a capacity of more than 20 kW, rather than try to optimize its costs. :)
                1. 0
                  13 December 2017 11: 12
                  Quote: nickd55
                  What? :) Where and when exactly did I say that when the air conditioner turns on, you can’t use the kettle? :) You're not a balabol? Confirm Please. :)

                  1. 0
                    13 December 2017 22: 21
                    So what? :)) You amuse me ...
                    Julianne asked me if I can simultaneously turn on a vacuum cleaner, kettle and hairdryer in my system? I replied positively, but added that, for example, in the summer, when the air conditioning also works, I and many people hardly need a kettle at all, because at this time there is heat and I want something cold. :)) What's wrong? It is interesting to know - what made you so overexcited in these words? :)
      2. 0
        11 December 2017 20: 19
        Quote: kuznec
        with peak power approx. 5 kW

        sorry but this is not power, private home ownership at the peak can take 15-20 kW
        1. +1
          12 December 2017 04: 36
          Vladimir, my post is just an answer to the comment above on the thread. Power is indicated by a colleague nickd55.
          1. +2
            12 December 2017 05: 14
            Or maybe not indicated. Excess covers the installation controller with batteries.
          2. 0
            12 December 2017 11: 41
            What is it all about? Where exactly did I mean some kind of power? :)
            1. +1
              12 December 2017 12: 56
              I apologize. You have not specifically designated.
              Quote: kuznec
              Or maybe not indicated.
    5. +2
      11 December 2017 12: 20
      Quote: iDr
      .those. having invested $ 3899 today, in 1.4 years the average Australian will receive energy for FREE. That's all arithmetic. I'm not talking about the fact that the autonomy and survivability of such a system is ORDERED higher ... Remember how entire cities and regions in Russia freeze during accidents at thermal power plants. During the war, it’s even hard to imagine what will happen in winter. But all you have to do is let the adversary bang on all the little-significant power generators or network facilities ... Having a distributed and very autonomous power supply system, the task of destroying it will be practically impossible ... You think about it ...

      Everything is correct - but the solar battery in Siberia, where villages have accidents (very often there is no centralized power supply, but old coal-fired boiler houses or diesel power plants - take care of them normally, reserve them a little - and there will be no problems!) Freeze out, putting it is useless - the effect is completely different than in Australia. Yes, and 6,4 kW of installed power is the maximum in theory - but we will take into account precisely this figure) there will not be enough solar battery for a house even in Australia - in my house in the evening, if you count, even more is consumed - a fridge-freezer -a pair of televisions and computers-washing machine- electric stove with oven. Well, light bulbs are a trifle ... And if you start a couple of air conditioners in the summer, then all the generated electricity will not be enough for them ...
      It should be noted: electricity is used mainly in the evening-morning, when it is not produced. This means that capacious batteries will be required - this also increases the cost of energy supply and payback. Moreover, the battery life is short. This is all good for increasing energy independence along with other sources of energy supply, especially with state benefits and subsidies for this business. hi
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 19: 36
        In the solar system, there may not be any batteries at all (if the network breakdown is low), and the Government’s micro-generation program will automatically sell the daily surplus to the networks, they will be required to redeem it and will not be taxed.
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 20: 41
          Quote: nickd55
          There may not be any batteries in the solar system

          belay
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 21: 49
            If you still did not know this, then let this be news for you. :)
            Network inverters have long been widely used around the world.
            1. 0
              13 December 2017 10: 32
              firstly, we are talking about independent sources, secondly, the inverter is not worth a little money plus any other
              1. 0
                14 December 2017 13: 01
                Sorry, you are talking about something of your own, but I'm talking about what is most effective for the vast majority of consumers.
                The issues of autonomous energy supply are each time a special case and the point in their consideration arises in the absence of physical networks.
                It makes no sense to disconnect from an existing network, but its joint use with renewable energy sources is the most reasonable solution in such cases (of which the overwhelming majority, I repeat!).
                Only a splinter costs nothing, a little more expensive - a candle. :)
                Why then do you even shake the air, if everything is so expensive? :)
                Always walk, wash your underpants in the river - this is the cheapest. :)
        2. GAF
          0
          11 December 2017 22: 48
          Quote: nickd55
          daily excess to sell to networks, they will be obliged to redeem it and will not tax it.

          Dear what are you talking about? Buckets will be the network to redeem whether an excess of electricity. To accept the excess, it must be synchronized with the network in phase and strictly! at a frequency of 50 Hz.
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 21: 53
            I’m talking about exactly what I personally initiated about two years ago, about which I made a report at the Analytical Center of the Government, and what will now be implemented next year. All necessary orders were given by the Government, work is underway to change the entire regulatory framework. Learn the materiel, please.
    6. +1
      11 December 2017 21: 30
      we saw how entire cities in the USA were cut down not even in accidents, but stupidly from a malfunction of the electronics ... We also set up a weak tower with a fan nearby, we wanted to disconnect from Chubais and live on our own. However, nothing came of it. Loot there only producers receive. Other serious problems
      1. 0
        12 December 2017 21: 55
        They say that with a fool, even in the temple, you can break your forehead. :)
  9. +6
    11 December 2017 08: 05
    to the author for the words
    NEVER AND NOT AT ANYTHING
    baAlshoy minus.
    Firstly I remember a telecast of the mid 80s. Chernobyl had not yet happened. And most scientists voted for nuclear power. But he got up alone and said that if the money that was invested in the atom was invested in the solar, it is not known what would be more profitable.
    Secondly, optionally, I was interested in how to "replace Chubais" for myself. It turns out that gas production systems from household waste have been created. Further, not only in China, but also in Russia, solar panels are produced where you can connect the house autonomously, watch TV, operate a refrigerator, charge a smartphone.
    The only global problem for the entire energy sector is the accumulation and conservation of electricity.
    1. idr
      +3
      11 December 2017 08: 10
      I totally agree. As soon as they develop cheap batteries, all of the traditional energy will fall ...
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 09: 09
        Have you read the article? A cheap battery only helps the stability of generation. SHE DO NOT ADD KIUM. Apparently you just did not understand anything in the physics of the process.
      2. 0
        11 December 2017 11: 36
        Quote: iDr
        I totally agree. As soon as they develop cheap batteries, all of the traditional energy will fall ...

        And these cheap batteries will be produced at enterprises that operate from traditional energy sources and it will be required to charge such cheap batteries from the same traditional energy sources. The conclusion suggests itself: traditional energy will not go anywhere. This is the basic industry, alternative sources can only complement it, but not replace it.
      3. +1
        26 December 2017 20: 55
        Quote: iDr
        I totally agree. As soon as they develop cheap batteries, all of the traditional energy will fall ...

        Batteries should not only be cheap, but free. Only then, perhaps.
        You do not take into account that the DIRECT use of energy and conversion into heat, light, movement is a one-time conversion, and the accumulation in the battery (it is not a source!) Of energy and conversion into an acceptable form for you is a multiple conversion. Which dramatically reduces the overall efficiency of the system. And, of course, reliability.
    2. +5
      11 December 2017 09: 32
      I’ll tell you one clever thing, just don’t be offended, but you won’t raise the intensity of solar radiation in any way. On 1 sq meter. something falls about 1 KW. 1 Million kW will be 1 Million sq. m. Or 1 square. km At 50% efficiency of the panel, we get. 2 sq. km at 1000 MW. In practice, it is good if 20% Efficiency, i.e., 5 sq. km at 1000 MW. Only on the panel. I have EMNIP city on 240 population, 20 km square. occupies, the industrial zone is even larger, but the 2 CHPPs in it are somehow even lost.

      But your “scientist” did not understand what he was carrying.

      Further, not only in China, but also in Russia, solar panels are produced where you can connect the house autonomously, watch TV, operate a refrigerator, charge a smartphone.


      Well, with a smartphone and a refrigerator, consciousness is limited, only to make a banal aluminum spoon you need a monstrous amount of energy to get the aluminum itself, and this metal became cheap only thanks to the cascades of the hydroelectric power station. Compared the penis with a finger, the house with the industry.

      However, there is nothing worse in terms of the high cost of communications than endless private development. In the city, you will have a maximum of a couple of hundred square meters of roof space on 3 dozen apartments.
      1. +1
        11 December 2017 09: 49
        I will post a video of wind turbine crashes. Pretty pretty.
        1. +3
          11 December 2017 11: 51
          Quote: igordok
          I will post a video of wind turbine crashes. Pretty pretty.

          Compare?
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 15: 26
            good Professor Bravo!
          2. +2
            12 December 2017 05: 21
            Then be consistent:

            Fukushima.
      2. 0
        11 December 2017 12: 50
        no offense,
        Yes, never, I'm interested in energy. and everything you wrote is correct, but ... re-read my last sentence. no matter what kind of energy, when there are surges in consumption, in the morning more than at night, in winter more than in summer. Nuclear power plants are not profitable to adjust, and TPPs are also not a fountain. So the main accumulation of energy.
        As for the alternative. More than a hundred years ago, electric cars began to be developed, but gasoline appeared. Or at first there were steam locomotives on coal, then electric locomotives, who knows, maybe they will soon be on solar traction .. So far your kW per meter is correct, but the possibilities of science are unknown.
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 14: 59
          I read it at a wonder. You heard about load graphs, or about the static power reserve of generators. All load fluctuations are calculated and predicted. For this, there are dispatch centers for managing the energy system of Russia. For nuclear power plants and thermal power plants, although thermal power plants will be more correct, there are daily load schedules that take into account load fluctuations during the day, therefore, morning and night load fluctuations are up to the bulb.
          1. +1
            12 December 2017 23: 31
            And to compensate for these fluctuations in load, huge capacities at power plants are constantly "in pairs" (so that it is "to the bulb"). Although (you will laugh), but quite recently, on the sidelines of a talk show on one television channel, a representative of a large energy company seriously complained that LED bulbs impeded their work. :)
            1. 0
              13 December 2017 01: 55
              So consumption is falling, and the power is idle, but asked "to eat."
              1. 0
                13 December 2017 10: 39
                So.
            2. 0
              13 December 2017 09: 21
              To be up to the bulb, all the generators included in the network have a power margin. The stock of static stability is called, due to it, any daily load fluctuations are compensated. Keeping huge capacities under steam makes no sense. What you write about is called a hot reserve. It is put into operation in the event of an emergency shutdown of the generator.
              1. 0
                13 December 2017 10: 44
                The concept of "huge" - with respect to the whole country.
                For example, in the Kuban, in addition to daytime fluctuations, there is a large seasonal bias in peak consumption (especially when vacationers come in the summer) and there is still a shortage of capacities in a number of places.
                1. +1
                  13 December 2017 14: 05
                  Quote: nickd55
                  For example, in the Kuban, in addition to daytime fluctuations, there is a large seasonal bias in peak consumption (especially when vacationers come in the summer) and there is still a shortage of capacities in a number of places.

                  I know the power system of the Kuban as a native Rostov. Do not write about what you are poorly versed in. All the same, the site is called VO, not Energetik.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2017 22: 08
                    So - there is absolutely no seasonal bias in consumption in the region? And there is no capacity shortage?
        2. +2
          11 December 2017 23: 42
          may soon be on a solar traction ..

          will not, the laws of physics can not be fooled.
          You can blindly believe in communism - this is normal, but to believe in devices that violate the fundamental laws of physics is stupid.
          Regarding the use of solar energy in the "farm" he was especially interested, the only thing that is justified is the heating of water on the roof, it really saves a lot
      3. +1
        27 December 2017 01: 34
        Quote: EvilLion
        I’ll tell you one clever thing, just don’t be offended, but you won’t raise the intensity of solar radiation in any way. On 1 sq meter. something falls about 1 KW. 1 Million kW will be 1 Million sq. m. Or 1 square. km At 50% efficiency of the panel, we get. 2 sq. km at 1000 MW. In practice, it is good if 20% Efficiency, i.e., 5 sq. km at 1000 MW. Only on the panel. I have EMNIP city on 240 population, 20 km square. occupies, the industrial zone is even larger, but the 2 CHPPs in it are somehow even lost.

        But your “scientist” did not understand what he was carrying.

        Further, not only in China, but also in Russia, solar panels are produced where you can connect the house autonomously, watch TV, operate a refrigerator, charge a smartphone.


        Well, with a smartphone and a refrigerator, consciousness is limited, only to make a banal aluminum spoon you need a monstrous amount of energy to get the aluminum itself, and this metal became cheap only thanks to the cascades of the hydroelectric power station. Compared the penis with a finger, the house with the industry.

        However, there is nothing worse in terms of the high cost of communications than endless private development. In the city, you will have a maximum of a couple of hundred square meters of roof space on 3 dozen apartments.

        And I give you a second clever idea. Record and remember.
        In the middle lane, in the summer, at noon, 1 kW from 1 square. m. With perpendicular illumination of the panel. The efficiency of the panel cannot be higher than 27%. Will explain. Each semiconductor layer of the panel clearly sees one color, and the other almost none. The first panels were sensitive to a single red color, and therefore had an efficiency of about 2%. Then they learned to make MULTI-LAYERED, transparent, but each layer was sensitive to its spectrum. Now they are doing a convoluted 25 ply. Further building up is pointless, since layers cannot be made completely transparent — they, since they are completely transparent, do not react at all to light. Light freely passes through them without giving up energy. And a little opaque, in sum make all layers together highly opaque. Hence, again, a decrease in efficiency.
        Further. Roofs do not turn after the sun.
        Do you remember geometry? The angle of incidence of light on the panel during the day varies greatly. Moreover, immediately in two planes. Hence the sharp decrease in energy removed by the evening. Besides. Light at noon occurs on the shortest path through the atmosphere. But in the evening, the path through the atmosphere becomes many times longer. And ..... Such a trifle as clouds, could, and more ....

        Aggressive supporters of green energy do not understand that wind farms, solar stations for network use in industry are being made giant areas, megawatt capacities are concentrated and centralized in the sense of flow control. Miserable attempts to make his garden a source of energy for use by the state does not cause a grin, pity as to a patient.
    3. +1
      11 December 2017 19: 37
      The problem of energy storage will be solved sooner or later by scientists and it is important for us not to oversleep this moment, or better yet, to lead research on this issue.
    4. +2
      26 December 2017 21: 04
      Quote: Gardamir
      to the author for the words
      NEVER AND NOT AT ANYTHING
      baAlshoy minus.
      Firstly I remember a telecast of the mid 80s. Chernobyl had not yet happened. And most scientists voted for nuclear power. But he got up alone and said that if the money that was invested in the atom was invested in the solar, it is not known what would be more profitable.
      Secondly, optionally, I was interested in how to "replace Chubais" for myself. It turns out that gas production systems from household waste have been created. Further, not only in China, but also in Russia, solar panels are produced where you can connect the house autonomously, watch TV, operate a refrigerator, charge a smartphone.
      The only global problem for the entire energy sector is the accumulation and conservation of electricity.

      All cyclic forms of energy generation (solar - only during the day, tidal - only twice a day, wind - only when the wind blows, which is even more unpredictable), makes the traditional more expensive, because the tradition cannot be turned off for a day. Thermal, hydroelectric power station, and, moreover, nuclear.
      Therefore, during the work of the "green" generation, the traditional will give an excess.
      only, and only, the worldwide electrical network can solve the problem. Not accumulators - accumulators that only increase the price, production from pollutes the environment, but energy transfer along the Earth's rotation. The sun illuminates the earth all the time. Tides are everywhere and at different times, the wind must blow somewhere ...
      1. 0
        26 December 2017 22: 06
        worldwide electrical network
        good idea too.
        1. +1
          27 December 2017 01: 42
          Quote: Gardamir
          worldwide electrical network
          good idea too.

          Believe me, it is as impossible as achievable as the manufacture of terawatt storage devices.
          We can never agree.
  10. +4
    11 December 2017 08: 11
    Guys, let's live together (c).

    First, Shurale, remember the basic physical law of nature - the law of conservation of mass. When coal is burned, new, additional radioactive isotopes are not formed - they simply move from the earth to the atmosphere. The radioactive isotopes contained in coal belong to the "natural background" - the radiation dose that we are used to from conception and which does not harm the body.

    Secondly, the extracted natural uranium raw materials and the enriched uranium used in the fuel elements of nuclear power plants are two big differences. Enriched uranium is not mined - it is produced at special enrichment plants.

    Thirdly, although they really try to get rid of TPPs, but the reasons for this are completely different, they have nothing to do with radioactivity:
    1. Emissions of carbon dioxide and soot
    2. The limited reserves of coal in nature
    3. The complexity and danger of coal mining in a closed way.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 14
      You are right, the particles emitted by coal-fired power plants are not activated, but this does not change my attitude to the article, the article does not reveal the problem.
      1. +2
        11 December 2017 23: 32
        particles are not activated

        Particles what?
        Do not tell me dear
        1. What engineer do you work in atomprom? there for example there are engineers specializing in sewer networks ....
        2. What does the atomomprom have to do with emissions from coal stations?

        but I forgot to say I am a supporter of Putin, judging by your comments, you are going to use this somehow in your answers .....
    2. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 35
      If in the corner they lay at a depth of 1 km, then they definitely did not belong to the background.

      Coal in the world just before a fig and more. Emissions of combustion products are no better than radiation, but they are simply used to them, and radiation is afraid. After all, people for the most part have not yet left the unwashed village.
    3. +1
      11 December 2017 09: 57
      Quote: AndreyM
      The radioactive isotopes contained in coal belong to the "natural background" - the radiation dose that we are used to from conception and which does not harm the body.

      Perhaps at the expense of the radioactive substances released into the air during coal combustion, paints are thickened, but these substances, in particular uranium compounds, are poisonous, like other heavy metals. In our town, where uranium was enriched, the tailing dump is adjacent to the private development sector. You won’t find a ward in an oncological hospital without people from there. This is the flip side of nuclear power.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +4
        11 December 2017 23: 34
        And I know where you come from. hi
        You can’t imagine how much rubbish is thrown into nature in the manufacture of solar panels.
  11. 0
    11 December 2017 08: 36
    Well, seeing with what persistence the “green” energy is moving forward, one can ask the sacramental-cosyrological question: exactly, what are the global economies on a market basis? belay
  12. +1
    11 December 2017 08: 39
    Industrial enterprises cannot depend on wind power. Should they be closed in calm?
    Alternative energy can only complement the traditional. Yes, the trouble is, traditional is cheaper. But what should they call black white? If they are ready to buy American liquefied gas, just not to use the Russian pipeline ...
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 19: 40
      Yes, renewable energy can only complement traditional energy (until capacious, durable and cheap energy storage devices appear). And now it is far from always traditional - cheaper than renewable energy sources.
  13. +2
    11 December 2017 08: 41
    The conclusion from the article suggests itself - do not rush to sell your homeland, in the sense of gas, oil, coal, wood ....
    - the time will come in itself fit.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 10: 29
      Quote: prior
      The conclusion from the article suggests itself - do not rush to sell your homeland, in the sense of gas, oil, coal, wood ....
      - the time will come in itself fit.

      ... especially the forest! From it, coffins get along well ... bigger!
      And gas, oil and coal - with you, to the next world - to the grave, to the coffin of a suitable size!
    2. +2
      11 December 2017 11: 01
      To the point, prior! And then screams of joy are rushing from all sides, that "our" oligarchs are selling more and more gas.
      And energy needs to be developed differently, only with the mind, in relation to a specific task and place.
    3. +1
      27 December 2017 01: 47
      Quote: prior
      The conclusion from the article suggests itself - do not rush to sell your homeland, in the sense of gas, oil, coal, wood ....
      - the time will come in itself fit.

      Who is stopping you from going to a university, getting a rare education and generating not only ideas, but also working projects for your homeland?
  14. 0
    11 December 2017 08: 57
    After half an hour of enthusiastic digging on the Internet

    Well, Wikipedia experts just turned my mind about the energy of Europe.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 09: 10
      Wikipedia? You draw everything from there. I've looked at the statistics.)))
      1. +1
        27 December 2017 01: 56
        Quote: yurasumy
        Wikipedia? You draw everything from there. I've looked at the statistics.)))

        What did they see there?
  15. +5
    11 December 2017 09: 11
    You know, guys, I’m already reading the second article by Yuri at VO on this topic and I can’t understand the main message of the author. The emphasis in both the first and second articles is on the fact that for the "green" energy of the West we are given fake figures. Or that the construction of the same wind farms is an expensive pleasure. Well, to be honest, I don’t care much what kind of noodles are being hanged up by Westerners about the "green" energy. What interests me the most is why the same wind energy is not used here. I understand that not every region is suitable for such construction, but there are some that are suitable. Watching on TV the “forest” of windmills in some Holland, which may even be slightly smaller in size from some of the regions of the region, you begin to ask yourself such questions. And why do not we have this? In our region, a number of cities are located, for example, in the zone where there are a very large number of sunny days. Why not there, 10-15 years ago, to begin to develop the same solar energy as additional means of generation. Turkey, which we never considered highly developed, is already making massive use of this gratuitous resource. And ....
    Or, again, as an example, our own Stavropol Territory. Some areas of the region in the wind are quite suitable. Yes, and the city itself, the capital of the region, too. City guests are usually surprised by the almost constant winds. But there is no smog. True, I must say thanks to Alexander Vasilievich Suvorov and the builder of the fortress, General Jacobi, who built the fortified city in such a place. Today, we have an unusually quiet morning for this time of year. The wind speed is small. only 15 meters / sec. Why not use this resource? Without going into these figures at the cost of such energy in the West? What is difficult to calculate, profitable to build them (wind farms) in the Stavropol Territory? It was clearly calculated, since it was stated that in the course of several years 9 such wind farms would be erected in the territory of the region. For the edge, additional energy I think will not hurt. The author makes all the emphasis in the article on the cost of kW * hours. It can of course and must be considered, but not always the cheapest may be the best and vice versa

    I agree with comrade Shurale about coal stations. The fact that in the area of ​​their operation there is an increased radioactive background was heard another 10 years before Chernobyl. And not at the level of rumors of OBS, but from people involved in the operation of such state district power plants, as well as those who, according to their duties, had to monitor such a situation as an increase in the radioactive background. The increase of course is almost imperceptible, sometimes by 5-10% compared with the natural background, but nonetheless. And they coal were "dirty" not even because of radioactivity.
    In his youth, he liked to walk with a backpack, rafting on the river in an emergency aircraft raft, and sit with a fishing rod by the river. So, when in the morning I went with my friends on the first train, the sky was just starting to change color and turn gray ... I’m not visible (it’s 8-9 km from the city - I lived in Novocherkassk then), but the “tail” of that muck ejected from the pipes (despite the filters) against the background of a gray sky clearly showed where the station is. And how many tens and hundreds of tons of all kinds of rubbish fell on the city a year was often written in the local “Brekhalovka”.
    Maybe not all coal stations had an increased background. Surely such a "theory" expressed by the comrade Shurale there are both supporters and opponents, but you should not simply discard this problem. as is the problem with brain diseases due to the use of cell phones. Also, one should not simply dismiss this problem. Something in reality, such a diagnosis more often appears - a brain tumor. And when in the same period of time there appears the only device that has become almost mandatory for everyone - a cell phone, you inevitably start asking yourself questions about the relationship ...

    Sorry for some messy post .....
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 09: 38
      To do this, they invented.))
    2. +1
      11 December 2017 10: 19
      I agree, windmills are suitable for some regions. But nationwide? It is enough to study the recommendations for the design of windmills (5m / s average annual) and SNiP Climatology and geophysics - in the territory of not even the Russian Federation, but the USSR, there are only a few places where the windmills will be really effective. And this is significantly less than 10% of the territory
    3. GIN
      +1
      11 December 2017 11: 35
      They chewed you that it is not profitable; you go there again
    4. 0
      13 December 2017 02: 04
      While all green energy is supported by subsidies, the exception is solar collectors for heating water.
      P.S. Subsidies can be different, but they appear only from the pockets of users. sad
  16. 0
    11 December 2017 09: 30
    For work, I’m in various dumps where it blows either hard or just blows. We use gasoline generators, despite the fact that a liter of gasoline with delivery costs about 1.6 dollars. There is a familiar fanatic of installing wind generators, he offered the services of our organization and others similar. So far, unsuccessfully. The payback period of the toy is too long.
    The feasibility of small and medium-sized hydroelectric power stations is not in particular disputed.
    Worst of all, by the combination of side factors, perhaps, coal-fired thermal plants. Because
    Quote: Shurale
    In coal, there is a large proportion of radioactive materials, when burning coal with ash, these materials are released into the atmosphere in horrific amounts, they try to ignore this part of the problem. Now you understand why many developed countries are struggling to get away from coal stations even in unprofitable ways.
  17. +2
    11 December 2017 09: 37
    Note that the green ones aren’t particularly fond of cars, and against airplanes, as well as against trains and other vehicles. And here where the Russian Federation is ahead of everyone, then everything is bad here. That on the rivers forbid to put hydroelectric power stations, they prevent fish from swimming, and they themselves are heated by a tree (by the way, too, a lot of trees are expensive and sorry) So why drown it? Right stream of consciousness from the green.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 10: 15
      And suddenly, under the drum roll in the arena, the theory of the "golden billion" appears.
      And suddenly it turns out that indeed, modern capitalism does not need all these billions of people who need to be fed, heated and the like. And you need comfortable living on a clean planet of a relatively small group of "elite" and their staff. Moreover, in energy-intensive areas only by the shift method, which is not such a big problem with the development of communications.
      And here is the conclusion - all these “green” technologies are for the comfortable stay of “clean” ones, those who are worthy.
      And all other methods, especially nuclear energy - they are for everyone, for the maximum possible number of people, cheaper and more.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 15: 29
        Local sorry, but it is far-fetched.
        1. -1
          12 December 2017 04: 57
          Yes, of course you are right.
          It was like a joke.
          At the moment, the efficiency and capacity of alternative sources is extremely low, and the cost of their production and operation is vice versa. In other words, with the available parameters of such devices, there will definitely not be enough for all of humanity with its industry.
          What is the conclusion? Either hammer on this solar-wind energy, and develop other methods, or ... reduce the costs of humanity. It is possible through a catastrophic population decline.
          1. 0
            12 December 2017 08: 39
            Dear Local! You are right in this and no one will argue with this here. But this does not mean at all that alternative energy is not necessary. On the contrary, it is necessary! Technology is being improved. We have all of the alternatives: sun, wind, fast rivers, coastal strip, thermal springs, etc. Imagine how many “parasites” -dealers fall off if your home is autonomous in this regard!
        2. +1
          27 December 2017 02: 10
          Quote: andrej-shironov
          Local sorry, but it is far-fetched.

          And you did not feel. Dock idea. Definitely.
          All dirty technologies are brought to Africa and to the periphery of Europe, China. They do not need superpower for super-energy enterprises. The territory of the golden elect is being built. We are most likely not included in this number.
    2. +1
      11 December 2017 19: 43
      Sawdust can be processed into pellets. :)
      1. 0
        13 December 2017 02: 09
        And you can burn in a "fluidized" layer. hi But process control is more complicated. smile
  18. 0
    11 December 2017 09: 56
    An interesting review. But how tired of reading revolutionary mathematicians! At school, in elementary grades, they teach that the numbers are only 10 (ten)! Where do others come from? Where did the numbers 1000 and others come from? For the beauty of the text, it is better to draw flowers. Or is the article addressed to people with an education that broke off after first grade? Total graphomania ... "About times, about morals ..."
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 11: 17
      Quote: SPLV
      Or is the article addressed to people with an education that broke off after first grade? Total graphomania ... "About times, about morals ..."

      are you about yourself?
      when they propose to verify "numbers" this does not mean that they compare "8" and "4"
    2. GIN
      0
      11 December 2017 11: 38
      Digit 10 order they have different
  19. 0
    11 December 2017 10: 04
    I read, I read .. already in the middle I got confused, spat, stopped reading .. You really are not angry. But as if simpler is all ..
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 11: 16
      Quote: Alexey Sobolev
      But as simple as that all

      EXPENSIVE
  20. +1
    11 December 2017 10: 12
    Thank you very much to Yuri for the educational program on wind energy.
    And also "green", blue, blue, what else is there. It was interesting to read.
    BUT!
    The accounting approach may be correct. More precisely, it is always correct when it is necessary to count what a thread.
    Only now, in addition to arithmetic, there is nothing to expect from such an approach. Such a life - they invested here, they wrote it off.
    But in reality, humanity (and not accountants) thinks little about depreciation periods, percent of annual depreciation and payback period. If anything is enough, it is property taxes.
    For example, any such wind stand can be sold. For instance. Or arrange tours of it - and you can come up with any reason - well, say, the most powerful, or the deadest, or concrete in the foundation of the P500 brand. It depends on the imagination under which sauce the nonsense to steam.
    Space technology, and for example - ballistic missiles - are generally unbearable, in principle. KIUM goes to the deepest disadvantages, if we take it into account. Efficiency - the same minus 200 percent. For it is unclear whether we will shoot or not. And keep the rocket town, and change the methylhydrazine, and carry out maintenance and repair work.
    How much joy do we bring American tourists into space? What is the return on such excursions? I would be glad that at least the reputation grows - but no, we carry them, and they give us the IOC.
    Still, research continues, rockets are being built, space is being gradually mastered.
    So it is with this wind energy.
    Yes, the business is designed so that it is NECESSARY to do something!
    Established the construction of risers, good. Let's now pump water under the ground, we will tear the layers. Nakoy, the question is? So wanted an exclusive gas? No, just a dvizhuha.
    Simply. It is necessary. Something. Do.
    Business does not tolerate downtime.
    And all business.
    ...
    And about baldness in the radar beam and cooking ermines wassat tongue laughing In some way, I’ve been able to work many times with working civilian radars Don, Donets, and Ocean, right in the beam. But how, for example, is it easier to check if there is a beam or not after scraping ice from the antenna? We take a gas-filled light bulb, and we bring it to light.
    About the lateral rays I will not specifically speak. But, a certain part of the male body works flawlessly until now, at 59 years old.
    It was not possible to climb into the radar of combat missions, firstly there was no need, secondly, from the beginning, it was not good for health. And the tale of raven cats, dogs, boiling in the beam during the study-service heard enough. And I would like to look at the commander of the calculation of such a radar, which would allow anyone to cook anyone in the beam of the radar.
    And finally - you catch the Ermine FIRST! Brew it yourself. Without any rays.
    Clean tales. Clean. But, enticing.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 14: 30
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      cooking ermines ...
      ... I couldn’t climb into the beam of a combat radar ... ... a tale about cat-dog-raven, welding in a beam even during study-service I heard a lot.
      ... you catch FIRST ermine! Brew it yourself. Without any rays.
      Clean tales. Clean. But, enticing.

      Ermine is a bust!
      But the chicken - plucked and gutted - yes! (stolen, alas ...); the microwave ...
      Since then, I have been reluctant to use microwaves - I was convinced of the destruction of proteins ... To eat this - only with great hunger! although - progress ... quality of life ...
  21. 0
    11 December 2017 10: 21
    rummaged in the internet, looked at the prices of wind generators and solar panels and I got the following - a hundred square meters need to put a wind generator and solar panels in our conditions, the minimum price of a set of equipment with half a million installation and payback for fifteen years, this is taking into account the fact that the equipment it will last so much, and without maintenance costs, but the batteries will still have to be changed this time, and maintenance will need one fig, respectively, the payback period grows to twenty years under ideal conditions - asks what for goat accordion ...
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 11: 10
      Quote: faiver
      the price of a set of equipment with the installation of half a million

      something cheap, what kind of power did you take?
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 11: 34
        this is the minimum price, i.e. accordingly, the question of product quality raises some doubts
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 15: 22
          as I considered the costs within $ 20 thousand
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 15: 30
            waved well hi
            1. 0
              11 December 2017 17: 16
              Quote: faiver
              waved well
              15-20 kW
    2. 0
      11 December 2017 19: 49
      And WHY, if there is a network, to set a goal to ensure FULL autonomy? :) Depending on the region, different solutions may be effective. Including - without batteries at all or with their very minimum. In the southern regions, you can do without windmills, only SES of some capacity with the possibility of selling surplus to the network, which will allow you to abandon the emergency gas generator (and the costs associated with this), and also in the current mode will save energy from the network (up to zero annual balance of consumption from the network, if appropriate). :)
      1. 0
        12 December 2017 08: 16
        Quote: nickd55
        And WHY, if there is a network, to set a goal to ensure FULL autonomy?
        and what do you think makes sense in connecting panels or a windmill
        1. 0
          12 December 2017 11: 50
          For private home ownership:
          1. Emergency power supply at home with the complete exception of the cost of acquiring a gas generator and its operation.
          2. Compensation of current consumption from the network in the desired amount, up to a zero or positive annual balance.
          3. A dramatic decrease in dependence on centralized communications when choosing a land plot.
          For example, in the southern regions of the country it is also possible to ensure a zero balance of consumption from the network, even when a private house is heated with a heat pump. However, at the same time, this house itself should be originally built using energy-saving technologies (which I am doing).
          Is it really bad to live in your own house and not pay anything to anyone at the end of the year?
    3. 0
      12 December 2017 22: 06
      A house per 100 m2 of consumers can be many times more than a house of 300 m2.
      In addition, the issue of energy saving should be resolved in the house BEFORE deciding on the installation of a solar power station (and this will be useful without the use of SES), since otherwise it will be necessary to compensate for the indefatigable appetite of ancient consumers and block it with additional bills.
  22. +4
    11 December 2017 11: 02
    Green energy is not a panacea, but it has its advantages! She can not replace the traditional, but can successfully complement it. Digged sources of energy (oil, gas, coal, uranium, etc.) will end sooner or later. They also greatly pollute nature. At that time, for example, solar energy is endless and has enormous potential. On Earth, there are huge areas that are unsuitable for economic use, but are ideal for solar power plants. Technology is developing very fast! The most promising source of energy is controlled thermonuclear fusion. In all developed countries, they have been working in this field for many years. There are certain difficulties, but sooner or later all technological problems will be resolved. This cannot be doubted.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 11: 09
      Quote: pytar
      They also greatly pollute nature.

      and you didn’t think what pollution is needed for the production of windmills and panels
      1. +2
        11 December 2017 20: 32
        Counted. Whenever machines / equipment are created at the first level, energy is consumed and there is pollution by nature. If this machine / equipment is designed to produce clean, waste-free energy, then the overall level of pollution decreases over time. As much as pure energy, the table is less polluted subsequent production of material products. There is such a fundamental principle in energy production. Hierarchical - I will say so. The extraction of eregy from renewable sources is the future of mankind. Sit all the time on oil, gas, coal, uranium, etc. impossible. They are not endless. This is not acceptable for the future. The planet is bathed in solar energy. It is a million times larger than all the energy in hydrocarbon reserves. It's crazy to burn and smoke, something that we can’t restore. The planet does not withstand such a load.
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 20: 54
          Quote: pytar
          Whenever machines / equipment are created at the first level, energy is consumed and there is pollution by nature

          far from it
          1. +2
            11 December 2017 22: 47
            far from it

            But as?
    2. 0
      11 December 2017 19: 49
      That's right!
  23. 0
    11 December 2017 11: 08
    Nobody tried to put together the numbers and statistics on the European "alternative" energy? Recommend. Very fascinating sight. After half an hour of enthusiastic digging on the Internet, I realized: everything that is written about the energy alternative is a lie. And a lie from the first to the last word.

    for this, half an hour is not necessary, just look at the cost of windmills and panels
    it is beneficial only in one case if there is no real opportunity to draw a line
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 22: 08
      No, I repeat, already now in a number of regions of the south of the country in hybrid SES the cost of solar kWh can be much cheaper than from the network.
      1. 0
        13 December 2017 10: 23
        Quote: nickd55
        can be much cheaper

        touches
        significantly, huge - one, two, many
        do you know how to communicate normally ?!
        significantly, by how much, what are the primary costs, payback time? !!!!
        1. 0
          14 December 2017 13: 20
          For noodles on the ears, contact the solar stores, there you immediately (without even delving into the essence and without making any calculations) will say some "exact" numbers. :)
          And I don’t know how. I repeat for you every fifth (if not more) - for an individual calculation of the economic feasibility of using renewable energy in a particular place, a number of initial data are required, on the basis of which you can then make this calculation and then - give the exact result - which system and under what it is the conditions of exploitation that can be effective in a given specific place and whether it can be at all. :) Again it is not clear? :)
          In the conditions of the Kuban, if a farmer or a small businessman pays electricity for 8-9 rubles, a solution for renewable energy in a hybrid system for him there is one that will provide him with 2,5 times cheaper cost of kWh (about 3,2-3,5 rub) and at the same time reduce the cost of maintaining an emergency gas generator.
          Even in conditions of complete autonomy, it is already possible to ensure the cost of kW * h cheaper than the commercial tariff - at about 6-7 rubles / kW * h.
          But disconnecting from the network, if it already exists, makes no sense. :))
          If this time you don’t understand anything either, then excuse me, but I'm not a doctor. :)
  24. +2
    11 December 2017 11: 26
    Read. Looked at the numbers. At the current price of electricity, our windmills are very profitable. Thanks to the author. I convinced you. good
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 15: 25
      Quote: professor
      At the current price of electricity, our windmills are very profitable. Thanks to the author. I convinced you.

      where do you have it ?!
      with us, with this money I can buy 333 thousand kW, which is about 1000 kW per month, 25 years
      1. +3
        11 December 2017 18: 46
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        where do you have it ?!

        On the Promised Land. 1KW costs 14 US cents. Therefore, "0,8-0,9 American cents for 1 kWh of electricity generated" is a song. I'm building a windmill. good I will not pull the nuclear power plant. However, the author does not want to describe such trifles as the ability of an individual or a small company to build a power plant. He easily built nuclear power plants. request
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 19: 51
          Depending on the region, the most rational solution may be individual. And you can have it and not a windmill (or not only a windmill). :)
    2. +2
      11 December 2017 20: 35
      And not only with you. And not only windmills. Technology is developing very fast! The fact that yesterday was unprofitable, now or tomorrow there will already be no competition.
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 22: 46
        We are waiting for thermonuclear energy.
  25. +2
    11 December 2017 11: 54
    It’s always the case when a person who knows little about the issue is taken to analyze the issue. Rummaged on the Internet and immediately exposed all the swindlers from renewable energy resources.
    The “green” revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word.
    And what, in fact, is a lie? Is using renewable energy sources less harmful than spending non-renewable ones?
    And how did the author calculate the impact of the development of programs for generating electricity from renewable sources on the cost of electricity by country? And it’s hard even to comment on the sufferings of Europeans who believed in a fairy tale and wind energy as an element of an energy war against the USSR.
    Maybe for starters the author should have searched the Internet for material on the history of wind energy.
    By the way, the most expensive electric energy in the Solomon Islands is about 90 cents per kW. Next are Tonga (47,00 cents), Jamaica (45), New Caledonia (44), Cook Islands (42).
    So the inhabitants of these islands. due to the fact that they do not read the articles of our author, they made a terrible mistake.
    Aruba, Cape Verde, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Denmark, Fiji, Tokelau, Niue, Saint Lucia, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Vanuatu plan to completely decarbonize national power systems over the next decades and receive electricity exclusively from renewable sources. They deceived the poor Papuans.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 15: 25
      Quote: Curious
      The “green” revolution in Europe: a lie from the first to the last word.
      And what, in fact, is a lie? Is using renewable energy sources less harmful than spending non-renewable ones?

      by the way and this is the same
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 16: 15
        And what is the main harm?
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 18: 15
          Quote: Curious
          And what is the main harm?


          and the fact that the sources of "green" energy do not multiply by budding and do not grow on trees, in order to create them you need to burn, dig and clog a lot of things
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 19: 43
            Correctly! And hydroelectric power plants, nuclear power plants, thermal power plants - they appear by simple division from a parallel world.
            For their construction, it is not necessary to violate the hydrology of rivers, nor to produce equipment. A coal to mine. so generally no harm. Therefore, before writing, it is recommended to think.
            1. 0
              11 December 2017 20: 55
              Quote: Curious
              For their construction, it is not necessary to violate the hydrology of rivers, nor to produce equipment. A coal to mine. so generally no harm. Therefore, before writing, it is recommended to think.

              Think about it, it’s very useful, or maybe everything just selling green energy is profitable
              1. 0
                11 December 2017 21: 17
                No matter how much I think, instead of you, I cannot. So you yourself will be tensed up.
                1. 0
                  11 December 2017 22: 12
                  tensed for a long time and counted
  26. 0
    11 December 2017 12: 36
    and hydroelectric power plants are not green? something not a word about them. or are there very few of them in the EU?
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 13: 09
      Quote: K0
      and hydroelectric power plants are not green? something not a word about them. or are there very few of them in the EU?

      Ecological harm from hydroelectric power plants is even worse than nuclear damage.
      1. +3
        11 December 2017 18: 16
        Quote: professor
        even worse than nuclear.

        you’ll laugh, but atomic ones are just one of the most environmentally friendly
        1. +2
          11 December 2017 18: 46
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          Quote: professor
          even worse than nuclear.

          you’ll laugh, but atomic ones are just one of the most environmentally friendly

          Chernobyl and Fukushima are an example of this.
          1. 0
            11 December 2017 20: 13
            you just didn’t live near the coal
  27. +1
    11 December 2017 12: 38
    For a long time he was engaged in the development of technologies and technological lines for alternative energy, through the processing of solid waste, of course, articles in magazines were printed and I was in the know about any research in this area. so back in the first decade in the journal by alternative sources, there were studies of Americans who clearly showed that by 2050 all this wind and other turbidity on a global scale would shrink to tenths of a percent. the main thing will be nuclear power plants, and other sources based on the splitting or synthesis of matter. Speaking about alternative sources, first of all, it is necessary to understand that this is BUSINESS ON FUCKERS. manufacturers of all these windmills raise very good money. That's all. like with gas. The main profit was made by equipment manufacturers. as with pederasts, the main profit is made by manufacturers of clothes, anal oil and so on. Business, nothing personal. The problems of the Indians are not interested in the American sheriff.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 15: 35
      So any business, or rather marketing, is built on suckers! Green energy is no exception. However, this is not a reason to block a bunch of nuclear power plants, thermal power plants, etc. in the country.
  28. 0
    11 December 2017 13: 24
    the author raves laughing
  29. 0
    11 December 2017 13: 39
    Quote: Shurale
    I do not work in the nuclear industry as a worker throwing a uranium with a shovel. I’m an engineer and just by the specifics of my work I know something that you don’t know.

    -------------------------
    Well, it's good that you work. But this does not mean that you can calculate the real cost of energy generated by nuclear power plants. And its cost is really much lower than "environmental" and has a tendency to decrease.
    By the way, about liquefied and natural piped gas. Pipeline gas is much more convenient. We used liquefied gas right up to 2004. That is, the gas carrier fills the gas at the beginning of the month, after half a month the burners burn weakly. So the United States can show off LNG as much as it wants, it only worsens the energy security of Europe.
    1. +3
      11 December 2017 13: 43
      Quote: Altona
      We used liquefied gas right up to 2004. That is, the gas carrier fills the gas at the beginning of the month, after half a month the burners burn weakly. So the United States can show off LNG as much as it wants, it only worsens the energy security of Europe.



      Are you sure that you understand what you are talking about from a technical point of view?
  30. 0
    11 December 2017 13: 58
    As I understood from the discussion, no one really argues about the high cost of green energy. And this, after all, is the main idea of ​​the article, as I understand it.
    As for ecology, it all depends on what to dance. In Europe, there is no oil and gas, so their main fuel is coal. I will not climb and look for numbers, but it seems that in Germany still about half of the electricity is generated by burning it. Switching to gas is probably not cheap, so the fact that alternative energy is developing there is quite natural.
    But if you burn gas, then even without calculations it is clear that thinking about green energy is stupid. In the European part of Russia, gas is mainly burned, coal in Siberia and the Far East. We draw conclusions ourselves.
    As for Holland and the "forests of windmills" - we remember the Dutch disease because of what happened? Maybe they are glad to burn gas, so it ended a long time ago ... Well, not quite of course, but not enough for the country.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 18: 46
      "As I understood from the discussion, no one really argues about the high cost of green energy." - I argue. :) And I have very good reasons for this. :)
      Tariffs in the Kuban:
      - rural - 3,1-3,5 rubles / kWh
      - city - 4,44 rubles
      - for living in SNT - about 5,5 rubles
      - commercial - 8-9 rubles (and even more)
      After the introduction of "social norms" next year, for a considerable number of citizens, the city tariff will turn into 6,22 rubles (and up to 6,94 rubles in the worst case scenario).
      And now the question - 3,5 rubles per kWh of self-energy against this background - is it very expensive?
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 19: 15
        expensive or cheap depends on your individual electricity consumption ...
        1. 0
          11 December 2017 20: 53
          No, it depends on the natural conditions of the region and network tariffs. Individual consumption is relatively small in this case (especially taking into account the microgeneration program).
      2. 0
        11 December 2017 20: 48
        Quote: nickd55
        And now the question - 3,5 rubles per kWh of self-energy against this background - is it very expensive?

        not expensive, the question is how much should you pay at a time for this miracle
        1. 0
          12 December 2017 22: 14
          This is no miracle.
          And why do you pay several times a lot of money for a personal car, if you can move the body on a bus / tram or on a bike, or even on foot? Moreover, such a car will never pay off at all. :)
          1. 0
            13 December 2017 10: 26
            Quote: nickd55
            You pay several times a lot of money for a personal car, if you can move the body on the bus

            I can’t, I have a bus passing by the house THREE times a day and then I don’t go where I need to, but the nearest store is 4 km away
            when I lived in a city I used a car only for trips out of town, as in the city I got tired of standing in traffic jams, and the car was needed for work
            Quote: nickd55
            Moreover, such a car will never pay off at all. :)

            mdaaaa ....
            1. 0
              14 December 2017 13: 24
              Buy a bike or jog - it's useful! :) And then you can get rid of the never recoupable costs of a personal car. :)
              And also - sell a washing machine and a dishwasher and other household appliances, they will also never pay for themselves. :))
  31. 0
    11 December 2017 14: 23
    Vigorous and once again vigorous.
    The other is just weak, and in Russia there are already full-fledged closed-cycle technologies for using nuclear fuel in stock.
    Twist the propellers of the gentlemen, catch the wave and sun bunnies.
    Envy, so envy silently.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 14: 44
      For the average monthly salary, our citizens can afford to purchase ~ 10 thousand kWh. About the same as in Denmark, the UK and most countries in Europe. That's only in tariffs in the EU includes up to 25% (as, for example, in Germany) of fees for green energy. That is, for the construction of those same windmills, etc. And with us, obviously, 25% of the tariffs go directly to the pocket of the members of the board of RAO UES and network companies such as PJSC Mosenergosbyt.
  32. 0
    11 December 2017 14: 37
    Quote: Town Hall
    Are you sure that you understand what you are talking about from a technical point of view?

    -------------------------------
    I say that liquefied gas is inconvenient from all points of view. I’m talking about my city. For a good example, I see how best.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 14: 50
      Quote: Altona
      Quote: Town Hall
      Are you sure that you understand what you are talking about from a technical point of view?

      -------------------------------
      I say that liquefied gas is inconvenient from all points of view. I’m talking about my city. For a good example, I see how best.


      And how is liquefied gas "inconvenient" for a simple consumer? What are the difficulties with him? .. isn’t that burning?
      1. 0
        11 December 2017 18: 18
        Quote: Town Hall
        not burning like that?

        By the way, yes
  33. 0
    11 December 2017 14: 47
    What a hysterical article.
    Here hysteria, do not hysteria. And the countries of the West, and not only they unequivocally keep a course on avoiding coal and other oil. Now the condition is only in its infancy, although there are countries like Germany. But clearly they all plan to have not only momentary benefits, but are building some long-term plans, even if alternative energy is currently more expensive.
    And here, as in any new business, whoever got up first broke the bank. As a result, in 10-20-30 years we may find ourselves sitting on a pipe with oil that nobody needs, and it will be too late to catch up.
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 19: 18
      and through 30 and through 50 everything will remain as it is now, unless there is a thread of scientific breakthrough in terms of energy extraction
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      16 December 2017 10: 47
      As a result, in 10-20-30 years we may find ourselves sitting on a pipe with oil that nobody needs, and it will be too late to catch up.
      In 10-20-30 years, our pipe will become much more in demand in Europe. Even if there is a sudden breakthrough in thermonuclear energy and all the countries of the Euro, having stretched themselves in a Stakhanov style, will cover Europe during this time with a network of power plants for fusion reactions.
      Bo hydrocarbons are not only valuable fur ... that is, not only energy generation, but also the most valuable raw materials for the chemical industry. Hydrocarbon consumption in Europe is growing steadily despite any crises. And nothing indicates a decline in consumption in the foreseeable future. They will burn less, recycle more.
  34. 0
    11 December 2017 15: 33
    Quote: Waltasar
    Have you read that document?
    Do you think that over 40 years the density of solar energy has changed, the winds began to blow harder? Or crop yields increased at times?
    Yes, the efficiency of modern systems has become higher, but not so much that the report is considered obsolete.

    Here's another question for the "knowledgeable." No one knows by chance how much of these reactive windmills work ?! Cosine fi mount necessary!
  35. 0
    11 December 2017 16: 28
    Yes, wind turbines at current speeds of air flow and air density are not profitable!, but it’s reckless to judge ALL green energy. It has been proved that 98% of the solar energy entering the Earth is reflected back into space and only 2% of this energy is absorbed by the ocean and plants! and again, BUT, not a single scientific shobla under the klikuha-Academy will not allow the manufacture of a mechanism that processes 98% of the unused solar energy into electrical energy, and there is only one reason "AND WHERE DO YOU NEED THIS SCHOOL?"
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 17: 39
      Do not be clever ... FOR SHOOT lol
    2. 0
      16 December 2017 10: 50
      BUT, not a single scientific shobla under the clique-academy, will allow making a mechanism that processes 98% of unused solar energy into electrical energy, and there is only one reason
      There is only one reason - such a concept as efficiency and losses ...
      Give me an example, a mechanical or electrical device that, when processing one type of energy into another, has an efficiency of 98%.
      1. 0
        16 December 2017 14: 04
        HEAT PUMP KE = 700% !!!
        1. 0
          16 December 2017 20: 35
          In general, it is true, but the heat pump has a COP coefficient, not an efficiency factor. :)
  36. +5
    11 December 2017 16: 48
    Is it an analyst? This is a kind of bulletproof vest for 5000 dollars - this is bad because the cartridge costs only 70 cents!
    Yes, wind energy is expensive and expensive, but it will never catch up with the "usual". However, if she takes at least some part of herself, even with subsidies, it will allow to clean the atmosphere and preserve the health of people who, even for a small fraction, will stop breathing smoke from power stations on fuel oil and coal.
    1. +1
      11 December 2017 18: 21
      Quote: A. Privalov
      if she takes away at least some part, even with donations, this will help to clean the atmosphere and preserve people's health

      and who the thread when the thread counted how much what needs to be burned to make one windmill or one element of the SB
    2. 0
      16 December 2017 10: 58
      However, if it takes away at least some part, even with subsidies, this will help to clean the atmosphere and preserve the health of people who, at least for a little bit, will stop breathing smoke from power plants in fuel oil and coal.
      That is why the United States and China spat at one time on the Kyoto Protocol and categorically refuse to reduce not only gross national emissions, but even the growth dynamics of atmospheric emissions.
      Like, you all tighten your belts here and increase the cost of the economy due to the increase in the cost of energy. And we will spoil the whole planet. We need to develop.
  37. 0
    11 December 2017 16: 56
    When I read at the very beginning of the article that all the information about green energy is a 100% deliberate lie of Europeans, which they do as propaganda and misinformation precisely because of the US energy war against Russia ...., I finished reading .
  38. The comment was deleted.
  39. +1
    11 December 2017 18: 22
    Quote: professor
    Ecological harm from hydroelectric power plants is even worse than nuclear damage.

    Exactly. On the Ob, one hydroelectric station near Novosibirsk brought down 0 sturgeon. all fish processing plants closed just a couple of years after the launch of this hydroelectric station, which even Novosibirsk itself lacks.
  40. +1
    11 December 2017 18: 38
    And I would not so categorically judge all RES. Moreover, even without "green tariffs" we can develop the topic for the benefit of the country.
    I live for the sixth year in my own autonomous house, I solve energy supply problems for people in difficult conditions, I build energy-efficient private houses, and now I dare say that now in the Kuban (for example) in a hybrid solar power supply system the cost of kWh can be significantly lower, than from the outlet (taking into account all operating costs per 25 years of operation - 3,2-3,5 rubles). You can talk for an arbitrarily long time that renewable energy sources are entirely one falsification, but if you "look at the root" (as the unforgettable Kozma Prutkov bequeathed), then it becomes noticeable that the very structure of world energy began to change actively, Siemens and General Electric in thousands reduce staff involved in the production of gas generating stations, nuclear scientists also sound the alarm about reducing demand. At the same time, the cost of traditional generation does not tend to fall, but with the help of renewable energy sources it is constantly decreasing. And the main thing for us here is not to oversleep the development of technologies, so I consider it extremely important to participate in the development of alternative energy. In addition, I do not understand why there is still not a single wind farm and a single powerful solar power station in the sunny Kuban, although up to now (and this lasts for decades!) There is a lack of capacities in the networks, a terrible accident rate and low quality of electricity. And no government is able to solve this problem. And the bias in consumption, which occurs in the summer with an influx of holidaymakers, could be largely leveled by solar power plants, which have exactly the highest output at this time of year.
    1. +1
      16 December 2017 11: 27
      You can talk for as long as you like about the fact that renewable energy sources are just one falsification,
      At first, none of the serious experts, and not environmental politicians or populists, say that RES is a scam. Everyone says that because of their shortcomings, which are different from other types of energy generation, these are purely niche technologies.
      SecondlyDo not confuse the cost of energy in the outlet and the cost of its generation. The prime cost of renewable energy (in the popular sense now) is several times higher than in traditional large energy. Whether you want it or not. Well, the price for the consumer under capitalism is determined only by the degree of greed of the energy monopolist and the degree of consumer interest in receiving energy, despite its cost to him. The justified niche of solar and wind generation is individual or medium-sized collective households with low power consumption and MANDATORY sustainability support from the central network. Otherwise, albeit rarely, but w ... happen. For example, if it is calm and cloudy for several days in a row, you will not have enough batteries. And this is even for home ownership. What to say about production ... Or the same centralized water supply to the city from water pumping stations.
      Thirdly, hydropower is in fact ALL (and not just small and micro-hydro) is RES. What they prefer to modestly keep silent about all interested "greenback" grant-eaters. This is so, note.
      And the bias in consumption, which occurs in the summer with an influx of holidaymakers, could be largely leveled by solar power plants, which have exactly the highest output at this time of year.
      Fourthly, the RES problem (the thunder of large hydroelectric power plants): 1) the inability to provide peak power on demand, 2) a poorly predictable change in the generated power (a cloud came in, gusts of wind), which requires a lot of effort to smooth out these surges, 3) a very weak power output - you calculate how many solar panels it takes to power at least one production line in medium-capacity production (and taking into account all the surges in power generation), or a city trolleybus network, or a railway line ...
      1. 0
        16 December 2017 20: 59
        "Secondly, do not confuse the cost of energy in the outlet and the cost of generating it. The cost of renewable energy (in the popular sense now) is several times higher than in traditional large energy." - in a number of countries this is, to put it mildly, not so.
        "Well, the price for the consumer is determined under capitalism only by the degree of greed of the energy monopolist and the degree of consumer interest in receiving energy, despite its cost to him." - Under capitalism, there is usually competition and a virtual absence of monopolism. The latter is especially pronounced with us.
        "The justified niche of solar and wind generation is individual or medium-sized collective households with low power consumption and MANDATORY sustainability support from the central network." - in general - I agree, but I will add that with the development of energy storage and storage systems, the situation will change.
        "Otherwise, it’s rare, but w ... pa will happen. For example, if it is calm and cloudy for several days in a row, you will not have enough batteries. And this is even for home ownership." - and it depends on where. My personal example clearly indicates the opposite.
        But this is not the point here, it is just the joint work of the network and the SES that is the most rational solution and there is no economic sense to refuse the network if it exists. And in a number of regions it is possible to build such a hybrid energy supply system in such a way that the annual balance of consumption from the network will be zero or even positive.
        "Thirdly, hydropower is in fact ALL (and not just small and micro-hydro) is RES." - I have no doubt about that.
        "Fourth, the problem of renewable energy (the thunder of large hydroelectric power plants): 1) the inability to provide peak power on demand, 2) a poorly predictable schedule for changes in the generated power (a cloud came in, gusts of wind), which requires considerable efforts to smooth out these surges," - I repeat , drive development is able to completely solve all these problems.
        "3) a very weak power return - you count how many solar panels you need ..." - I'm sorry, but sometimes "power return" may not depend on the number of solar panels at all. :) For example, in a system with batteries, its value depends only on the power of the inverter (s) and partly on the capacity of the batteries (which will determine the operating time at this power).
        Even for powerful consumers, the joint operation of the network and the SES can make economic sense in a number of regions of our country right now.
    2. +1
      16 December 2017 13: 55
      Stations - this is the last thing in the modern energy market. Everywhere there is a shortage of networks. And it is he, and not the shortage of production capacities, that determines the low quality of electricity in a particular household consumer. All these alternative energies have long been calculated and can only be an economical supplement to traditional energy. No more.
      1. 0
        16 December 2017 21: 05
        In the whole country, there is a surplus of capacities. But in the southern regions - yes, there is a chronic deficit on which seasonal factors are superimposed, plus a large amount of new construction. But in the coming years, the country will have to decommission a significant amount of old, still Soviet, capacities, and the Government is racking its brains on how to ensure the construction of new ones.
  41. 0
    11 December 2017 20: 27
    Quote: iDr
    ... In the West, NO ONE WILL FORCOME ANYTHING. Only life can make ...

    The USA is quite able (when they have such a desire) to arrange for some a life that will make ...
  42. +1
    11 December 2017 20: 48
    For a long time he worked in the energy sector, at the institute for saving energy. In different countries / it wasn’t very soon / they did research and found that during their life solar panels receive less energy from that
    expended for their production.
  43. +2
    11 December 2017 21: 05
    About 3 years ago when I read Topvar, it was a non-politicized publication that published articles about our and the global armed forces and their achievements. Now, not a word about the army, just bile and hatred of everything Western, mostly not backed by real facts. It's a shame, it used to be interesting to read, but now it's the same as on all other news portals. No.
  44. 0
    11 December 2017 21: 11
    And it’s nothing that uranium remains with Gulkin’s nose (see video with nuclear physicist Ostretsov) and coal will inevitably kill living things?
    1. 0
      11 December 2017 22: 53
      Uranium will end - they will switch to weapons-grade Uranus 235 and plutonium, and there Thorium and thermonuclear energy will appear.
    2. 0
      16 December 2017 13: 58
      Yeah, coal will kill. ))) I'll tell you a secret - sooner or later we will die. But the animal world and man usually easily adapt to any conditions when there is something to eat.
  45. The comment was deleted.
  46. +2
    11 December 2017 21: 23
    Alternative energy has only one plus. If necessary, there is complete autonomy. Everything else is not recouped and hemorrhoidal. When windmills and solar panels give 25 years, they do not really mention the reduction in productivity by half. And most importantly, these are batteries. Service life of less than 10 years. And they cost more.
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 11: 55
      Windmill 25 is unlikely to work, but good factory solar panels in 25 years will have a decrease in productivity of up to 20% (not in half).
      I repeat - there may not be any batteries in the system at all, but, taking into account the terrible accident in the networks, it is better to have a minimum of correct batteries (not the ones that are usually used in stores, they don’t last 5 years), which can serve much more in a hybrid system 10 years.
      Taking into account all operating costs per 25 years of service, now in the south of the country it is possible to ensure the cost of solar kWh at the level of 3,2-3,5 rubles. That's all. :)
      1. 0
        16 December 2017 14: 01
        There can be no batteries only under one condition - the use of traditional energy. And in power supply systems it is: every alternative watt is duplicated by a traditional watt. And when the alternative does not fry due to natural causes, the dispatchers transfer the production of electricity to traditional.
        1. 0
          16 December 2017 21: 07
          That's right, that's what I’m talking about.
  47. +1
    11 December 2017 23: 41
    On October 8, 1975, the famous scientist academician Pyotr Kapitsa made a report on the topic “Energy and Physics” (easily searched at the Institute) at a scientific session dedicated to the 250th anniversary of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Based on the basic concepts of physics, he proved that existing sources of alternative energy (with the exception of nuclear energy) cannot fundamentally replace industrial energy generation.
    P.L.Kapitsa notes that, whatever the source of energy can be considered, it can be characterized by two parameters: the density of energy - that is, its amount per unit volume - and the speed of its transmission (propagation). The product of these quantities is the maximum power that can be obtained from a unit surface using energy of this type.
    Further, analyzing the types of alternative energy, he showed that all of them (with the exception of atomic energy) are fundamentally not promising for industrial energy generation and can only matter on a small scale, for example, for domestic needs. With this report, P.L.Kapitsa, in fact, "buried" alternative energy in 1975.
    Currently, the conceptual conclusions of P.L.Kapitsa have already been comprehended by many in relation to the current state of alternative energy. The projection of the fundamental conclusions of P.L. Kapitsa on various types of modern alternative energy, such as wind energy, hydrogen energy, bioenergy, etc., also leads to the conclusion that their prospects are limited for industrial generation.
    The general conclusion is that alternative energy can be applied only on a small scale, as an addition (and even in small proportions) to industrial generation, for example, for domestic needs in remote areas.
    It would be good for us all to understand this more quickly, so as not to throw away "money down the drain" (in the literal and figurative sense of the word).
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 00: 47
      Quote: drags33
      With this report, P.L. Kapitsa, in fact, "buried" alternative energy in 1975 year.

      Did you read the report yourself?
      Quote: Kapitsa
      Now the main interest is attracted by those methods of generating energy that do not depend on the amount of energy stored in the past in various types of fuel. Here, the main of them is considered the direct transformation of solar energy into electrical and mechanical, of course, on a large scale. Again, the practical implementation of this process for high-power energy is associated with a limited amount of energy flux density.


      Annual average = 341 W / m²,average over the whole earth
      1975 G. Efficiency of solar cells at Kapitsa?
      2017 = up to 35,9%.
      A team of engineers from the US National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the Swiss Center for Electronics and Microtechnology (CSEM) and the Federal Polytechnic School of Lausanne (EPFL) developed solar modules with a multi-junction structure and record levels of efficiency (up to 35,9%.).


      the price of Chinese photocells fell from $ 4,5 per watt in 2006 to $ 1 per watt in 2011
      Pay attention to the deserts, all kinds of sugars there



      Quote: drags33
      The general conclusion is that alternative energy can be applied only on a small scale, as an addition (and even in small proportions) to industrial generation, for example, for domestic needs in remote areas


      Yes Yes Yes.
      Quote: Kapitsa
      Now there is also a discussion on the use of geothermal energy. As you know, in some places of the world on the earth’s surface, where there is volcanic activity, this is successfully carried out, true on a small scale.

      Sergey Petrovich lived in an era when gasoline cost 1,5 okpeiki, the same amount of energy and communal services was 3 rubles for an 3 room apartment all in

      Iceland does not have its own oil and gas deposits. At the same time, 80% of energy is generated from renewable sources.


      2012 POWER OF ICELAND PLAN TO EXPORT ELECTRIC POWER TO EUROPE BY UNDERWATER CABLE.
      in my opinion already paved?


      Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE traditional annual brochure Power Generation in Germany

      On December 12 2016 at three o'clock in the afternoon the sun and wind provided a total of 2,1 GW of power, with demand for 69 GW.

      it seems a penny? but

      2012 (I do not have other data) Germany with electricity sold at EXPORT in the amount of 65,4 billion kWh. = second exporter in the world

      2012 Russian Federation is located on the eighth ranked by major electricity exporters, exporting more 23 billion kWh.

      It's cool that in 2016 (for the first time) the development of solar power plants decreased by 3%, in wind energy - by 1,5%.

      So it’s cotton and this hedgehog is clear:
      Oil Prices Gas, End 2014,2015,2016 = BELOW PLINTH

      gas generation in German energy traditionally plays a minor role, the vast majority of gas imported by the Germans is used to generate heat.



      Quote: drags33
      It would be good for us all to understand this more quickly, so as not to throw away "money down the drain" (in the literal and figurative sense of the word).


      We will see
      In accordance with the German Law on Renewable Energy (EEG), the current version of which was approved in July last year, by 2050, at least 80% of German electricity should be produced on the basis of RES

  48. +1
    11 December 2017 23: 45
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    Someone else has questions about why I consider the European "green energy" a great profanity and the greatest deception?

    Yes there is.
    1. A wind farm is a renewable source (eternal), no nuclear power plant
    / and Europe, there are practically no reserves of "uranium" fuel, the United States is the same. Wind in bulk.
    2.
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    Perhaps overhead will put everything in its place? We have already obtained the operating costs of nuclear power plants from the data of environmentalists (that is, opponents). This is approximately 1,1 US cent per 1 kWh.

    To put it mildly, some kind of crap (1,1 sent / kWh)
    look


    in xnumx costs
    capital = 12,1
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    American cent for 1 kWh. [/ b]

    fuel = 6,4
    (there are “centimes” in the display, but this is a clumsy translation) Well, or “the costs of generating electricity
    4,8
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    American cent for 1 kWh. [/ b]

    1985 year Karl = 1985 ..
    And 2017
    I don’t know how many times $ dollar

    accordingly figure
    This is approximately 1,1 US cent per 1 kWh

    fool
    3.
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    New assemblies are being developed that have improved characteristics and allow the same reactor. get more heat, and therefore, electricity.

    belay
    Come on? And not fuck ... oh. Wouldn’t it happen like this lady?

    If the reactor is designed for fuel elements: cooler consumption, pressure, degradation, etc.
    as well as must not apply fuel elements with more heat (with less actually too)
    in Magnox you will not load (the same number) AGR fuel rods and vice versa.
    Although they are brothers.

    as if yes ... TVSA-PLUS (104%) but the whole devil is in the details, right?
    that's the essence of innovation

    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    But technology does not stand still not only in wind power. But also for nuclear scientists.


    4. And recycling .... In tse moroka.
    In the nuclear power plant everything is flouted: buildings, machinery, the ground under it, a cooler, testing, personnel, clothing, gloves, etc., and so on.
    everything needs to be buried



    in wind power stations - nothing, everything will be recycled and will go
    5.
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    It is impossible to increase these dimensions to infinity, as it is impossible to increase the average wind speed on the ground. .

    Right. Yes, and not necessary. I still remember:
    The GPS chip cost 130 $ / piece, in 2015: 1,3-1,5. It's a bit cents (I’ll soon be implanting in dogs,
    so with installations of WPPs - CHEAP and significantly,
    Efficiency is growing
    6.
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    But in Europe it is very difficult to find a place

    Oh, come on.

    But in Russia it is a fig.
    7.
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    In general, it is very likely that all this beautiful tale of green energy arose only as a result of the energy war being waged by Washington against the USSR for more than a decade.

    Well, why lie to something?
    Quote: Author: Yuri Podolyaka (Yurasumy)
    lie from the first to the last word

    After Chernobyl, everything started

    The first government program to support wind power called “100 MW wind” appeared in Germany in the 1989 year. Tangible growth in wind power began with the adoption of the Electricity Grid Feed Act in 1991 year. In 2000, a new version of the Act was adopted, and already in 2002, the total capacity of the German wind power reached 10 000 MW.


    =================================================
    ==
    State corporation Rosatom in 2017 comes out to the wind power market. According to Rosatom experts, by the year 2024 its volume can be 3,6 GW, the annual turnover is 1,6 billion US dollars. This guarantees the demand for the production of wind turbines and entire wind farms, the necessary infrastructure for them and technical support services. Collectively, this is estimated at 6,3 billion dollars.

    wink

    http://www.rosatom.ru/production/vetroenergetika/

    In 2016, a subsidiary of ROSATOM, VetroOGK JSC won the competitive selection of renewable energy projects conducted by the NP Market Council Association. According to the plans, the company plans to build wind generation facilities with an aggregate capacity of 610 MW. The capacity supply of the said facilities is planned to be carried out under capacity supply contracts (CSAs) on the wholesale market for electrical energy and capacity.


    At the same time, Rosatom does not plan to stop production of installations with a capacity of 610 MW (that is, 244 installations of Lagerwey design). The plans of ROSATOM include the production of wind turbines in the amount of 1,6 GW in the next 6-7 years (about 600 installations).
  49. 0
    12 December 2017 00: 07
    Nice article. But one thing has been clear for a long time, if wind power was profitable, then they would have switched to these mills long ago, because the generator itself doesn’t know where it is spinning, but so far why the wind has not surpassed another force.
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 02: 52
      No one has switched completely to wind power simply because wind is a free resource. You can’t make money on it because of oil or coal))
      Everything is simple. It's not about the power of energy))
  50. +1
    12 December 2017 02: 49
    1. It is simply amazing how the author ignores the cost of resources for the operation of the same nuclear power plant comparing the cost of construction.
    2. It is amazing how the author ignores the construction period - nuclear power plants are put into operation for 10 years, and the construction of a wind generator for several months.
    3. Surprisingly, the author does not know that nuclear power plants consume thousands of tons of non-renewable resources - radioactive materials and water. A wind generator consumes wind)
    4. And finally, ecology. At some point, the author apparently decided that radioactive water and fuel elements are not dangerous, and the cost of their disposal is a penny))
    For reference, the disposal of nuclear waste, the maintenance and protection of landfills - a separate article in the costs of nuclear power plants.

    In general, an unprofessional article. For the sake of collecting comments, apparently.
    I liked the video
  51. 0
    12 December 2017 07: 03
    As we saw in the previous article, the most effective and most promising type of “green” electricity is wind energy.


    I read the previous material. And I read the comments. And I became convinced that the most effective and most promising form renewable electricity generation is hydropower (the fact is that Atom also considers itself “green” energy). But for some reason the Author continues to follow his line and compare the incomparable. Blinding? Ignoring common sense? Or was the main idea still to at least turn inside out, but still write about the fact that Europe is “crazy”? Or maybe just stupidly farming comments? Well then.
  52. +1
    12 December 2017 12: 25
    “The author” of this work, counting on the ignorance of people who have never been in Europe, like himself, should drive along the coast of northern Germany and see how and how many “stupid Germans” set up turbines, and how they “don’t spin.” So, they are always hanging around there, day and night. There is no need to talk about 20 percent. And it is extremely difficult to believe that the punctual and careful Germans did not check the investment calculations at the project stage, the wind rose, etc. a hundred times. In 2016 VIA's share in Germany's energy balance was almost 40 percent and the rate (!) of this growth is growing every year. Thus, I wish the author to first understand the economics of his place of residence, yes, and it wouldn't hurt to clean his stairwell of shit and clean up the pissed off elevator, before teaching the “underdeveloped” European neighbors the basics of economical energy generation.
  53. +1
    12 December 2017 14: 52
    Quote: iDr
    The installed cost of solar panels for a home is $3899 for a 6.4 KW system

    which will generate about 25 kWh per day or 25x0.3 = 7.5 dollars per day, the payback time will be 3899/7.5 = 519 days. Or about 1.4 years Even if we assume that the cost of generating electricity = 0, then due to the fact that the cost of delivering it to the consumer will be NOT LESS than 15 cents per 1 kWh, the payback period will be only 2.8 years... i.e. By investing $3899 today, the average Australian will have FREE energy in 1.4 years. That's all the arithmetic is.

    Inspired. I looked at what we offer. For this money you can buy a 1.2 kW system, which is “designed to generate electricity from solar panels during the day and “pump” it in the existing home network." For $6000 you can buy 5 kW. "Intended for use in a private home as an autonomous power supply system during spring - early autumn". At the same time, "the average daily energy supply from batteries will be about 5 kW*hour per day".
    We are not Australia. Thick clouds have been hanging in Volgograd for a week. In such conditions, these panels are enough for a TV, a refrigerator and several light bulbs. And if the panels are covered with snow, give way and freeze... The car with frozen windows, I suppose, was started. In the summer, by the way, the panels need to be cleaned of dust.
    You forgot about batteries. As far as I understand, they are not included in the kit according to your link. They also cost money and are short-lived.
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 21: 22
      "For $6000 you can buy 5 kW." - what is "5 kW"? Inverter power or solar panel power? What is the inverter power - rated, maximum or peak?
      The equipment on the market is of a completely different class and some sellers are VERY disingenuous, while others generally show complete unprofessionalism when indicating the calculated characteristics of ready-made kits. My opinion is this - the most effective system is always strictly individual, since a large number of factors need to be taken into account. Even the installation itself can be done in different ways, with different final effectiveness.
      For 360 thousand rubles ($6000) you can buy good equipment for solar power plants with panels with a total rated power of about 4 kW, a hybrid low-frequency conversion inverter with a rated power of 3 kW, a maximum of 4,5 and a peak of 7 kW (for most consumers this is enough, and the most powerful ones in this case will work only from the network), a good controller and armored batteries with an available energy reserve of about 4 kWh. Such a kit will be able to collect an average of about 5000 kWh of energy per year near Volgograd. How much of your consumption this can cover - see for yourself. In the summer, on a good sunny day, this system will be able to collect up to 18-20 kWh; the excess can be officially sold to networks next year and will not be subject to taxes. The hybrid inverter will automatically supply energy to consumers, primarily from the sun, and only when there is a shortage of it (or at night) will it pull what is needed from the network. In the event of a network failure at night, you will always know that you have a reserve of about 4 kWh, so you can plan your consumption before the network appears or before sunrise. Thus, there will be no need to have an emergency gas generator in the house, and in the “online” mode during the day there will be serious savings in consumption from the network.
      If the panels are positioned correctly, then you won’t have to clean them at all from either snow or dirt (tested). Some types of regular panels can be positioned even vertically, since they are less dependent on the angle of sunlight.
      By the way, I went through the epic “ice rain” personally and without losses. :)
      Armored batteries in a hybrid system can last more than 10 years (up to 15-18, if you don’t forget to add water every few months, although you can also install special regenerator plugs). The approach is no longer even lithium “lifers”, but lithium titanate ones, which promise to become almost “eternal” with 15000 cycles and excellent other parameters. And for some reason I personally am inclined to believe in Toshiba.
      1. 0
        12 December 2017 22: 00
        Quote: nickd55
        For 360 thousand rubles ($6000) you can buy good equipment for solar power plants with panels with a total rated power of about 4 kW, a hybrid low-frequency conversion inverter with a rated power of 3 kW, maximum - 4,5 and peak - 7 kW

        that is, nothing
        homeownership at its peak will give you up to 15 kW without strain, no, of course if you only use a hairdryer and a kettle then yes

        By the way, comrade “specialist”, at today’s exchange rate and the price of electricity, with a consumption of 1000 kW per month, this is about 8,5 years of payback, but now tell me, what is the point of this hemorrhoid, provided that with your data you won’t even get 1000 a month?!! !
        sell suckers the toys they need?!!!!
        1. 0
          13 December 2017 11: 14
          “household ownership at its peak will give you up to 15 kW without strain” - my own homeownership - will not, because I think first and then do (the system).
          Yes, depending on the width of the owner’s cheeks, peak consumption may be even greater, but this is on the conscience of the consumer himself.
          And the choice of SES power may in no way be related to the volume and peaks of consumption; it all depends on the goals and objectives of the consumer himself. Some people only need to reserve a gas boiler in a heating system with a circulation pump (so as not to run after a gas generator), while others want to compensate for almost everything or even everything.
          For the sake of the “not a babble,” I solemnly inform you that I can create (and have already done this) systems of much greater power (including three-phase), the only question is the goals and objectives, as well as the feasibility of some reasonable solution in a particular place, taking into account mass of individual factors. :)
          So far, only you are “snorting” some crap into your own head that you just pulled out of thin air. :)
          1. 0
            13 December 2017 12: 44
            Quote: nickd55
            it won’t, because I think first and then do (the system).

            do you count thinking?!!!
            your water supply and water use system alone will give you six and a penny
            A modern hob can have a connection power from 3 to 10 kW
            oven 1-4 kW
            plus equipment pole maintenance of the farm, accountant damn amateur
            1. 0
              13 December 2017 13: 17
              Well, do the math, “not a balabol.” :)
              You can’t even imagine - many people don’t even have electric hobs and ovens in their homes, and they don’t even make any sense where gas is available. :)
              I repeat - there are different houses and each can have its own solution.
          2. 0
            18 December 2017 00: 25
            Quote: nickd55
            “household ownership at its peak will give you up to 15 kW without strain” - my own homeownership - will not, because I think first and then do (the system).
            Yes, depending on the width of the owner’s cheeks, peak consumption may be even greater, but this is on the conscience of the consumer himself.
            And the choice of SES power may in no way be related to the volume and peaks of consumption; it all depends on the goals and objectives of the consumer himself. Some people only need to reserve a gas boiler in a heating system with a circulation pump (so as not to run after a gas generator), while others want to compensate for almost everything or even everything.
            For the sake of the “not a babble,” I solemnly inform you that I can create (and have already done this) systems of much greater power (including three-phase), the only question is the goals and objectives, as well as the feasibility of some reasonable solution in a particular place, taking into account mass of individual factors. :)
            So far, only you are “snorting” some crap into your own head that you just pulled out of thin air. :)

            I read it three times and didn’t understand anything. You incorrectly define the capabilities of the system. In order to use solar panels to charge batteries during daylight hours with a consumption of 15 (?) kW and eat the rest of the time, which is at least 16 hours a day, an area of ​​half a hectare is needed. And not just passive, but with a system for tracking the movement of the star. And then you have to say the word OH.
        2. 0
          13 December 2017 13: 10
          I will add that 5000 kWh per year is 417 per month.
          This average consumption has the majority of households in Volgograd (and not only). :)
  54. 0
    12 December 2017 15: 16
    Printed +100500 lards of greenery...gave it on credit for the construction of a hydroelectric power station wind power plant solar power plant nuclear power plant road bridges, etc..as collateral for shares...it turns out a secured emission...industry work 5t...people too...taxes are paid, the economy is growing.. .ownership of banks...cost is the tenth thing...but the decrease in dependence on energy imports is obvious
  55. 0
    12 December 2017 18: 04
    And then Chernobyl-Fukushima happens and all calculations go to hell.
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 18: 09
      Quote: John Doe
      And then Chernobyl-Fukushima happens and all calculations go to hell.



      In fact, the calculations go to hell without any accidents. The issue of the cost of storing thousands of tons of radioactive waste is modestly silent in all Rosatom “statistics”
      1. +3
        12 December 2017 18: 44
        In fact, some of the waste is already quietly flowing into other reactors. A completely waste-free nuclear energy cycle is just around the corner. And then the countries that have nuclear waste disposal sites will become quite rich. http://peretok.ru/articles/innovations/14753/
        "...The vast majority of nuclear power plants in the world have reactors using thermal low-energy neutrons, and use water as a coolant. Their operation requires uranium-238, enriched with the uranium-235 isotope. The resource base of uranium-235 is very quickly depleted, and after 20– In 30 years it will become a very large deficit. Where is the way out? The way out is to use fast neutron reactors, which can consume natural uranium, thorium (of which there is a lot in the bowels of the planet), as well as spent nuclear fuel from reactors with thermal neutrons. The main feature of fast neutron reactors is that they burn isotopes of heavy elements that do not fission in thermal neutron reactors. Fast neutrons literally break them up.

        Now let's determine what meaning is inherent in closing the nuclear fuel cycle. In addition to the unburnt remains of uranium-235 and uranium-238, spent nuclear fuel from thermal neutron power units contains so-called actinides - plutonium, neptunium, americium, curium, as well as isotopes of palladium, technetium, strontium, cesium and other chemical elements. Many of the actinides (for example, americium) have high specific radioactivity and a half-life of several centuries. What to do with them? For now, spent nuclear fuel is kept for several decades in special refrigerated storage facilities (which is very expensive), and then buried in nuclear repositories (which is also expensive and very dangerous). However, spent nuclear fuel mixed with natural uranium oxide and other components can be used as fuel for a fast neutron reactor. Moreover, the waste from this reactor produces plutonium-239, which can be used as a fuel component in reactors with thermal neutrons. And the most dangerous actinides are converted into less dangerous fission products. Also on the BN-800, weapons-grade plutonium and the so-called waste uranium remaining after enrichment of nuclear fuel with uranium-235 can be used as fuel components.
        Ideally, a fast neutron reactor should at the same time be an almost “omnivorous” reactor, a factory for generating fuel for nuclear power plants using thermal neutrons, and a destroyer of radioactive waste..."
        Waste-free nuclear power is just around the corner.
        1. 0
          12 December 2017 21: 25
          "Waste-free nuclear power is just around the corner." - and this is very good. I follow these domestic developments a little.
        2. 0
          18 December 2017 09: 41
          thorium (of which there is a lot in the bowels of the planet), as well as spent nuclear fuel from reactors
          The most important thing for thorium is the half-life for several isotopes. It is radically higher than for uranium isotopes.
    2. 0
      12 December 2017 19: 00
      Don't confuse any bullshit. Fukushima is the result of outdated technology and natural disaster. And Chernobyl is a human factor, i.e. negligence. With this logic, you can say about cars, that’s why they have accidents, or about airplanes, that’s why they crash. But you have to drive and fly, and everything depends only on the people.
  56. 0
    12 December 2017 18: 58
    Storytellers gathered here. Don't confuse warm with soft. If everything was thrown away with coal like that, everyone would die. Alive? Well, that means it's all crap
  57. 0
    12 December 2017 20: 29
    Ecology is good, but what about those countries where coal is the main part of the population’s income, and coal mines are city-forming enterprises? Or will everyone give a damn about the millions of unemployed people?
  58. +2
    12 December 2017 21: 05
    Quote: Shaikin Vladimir
    Nice article. But one thing has been clear for a long time, if wind power was profitable, then they would have switched to these mills long ago, because the generator itself doesn’t know where it is spinning, but so far why the wind has not surpassed another force.


    Just by the number of comments and disputes, it is clear that the topic of energy will be relevant for a long time, and P.L. Kapitsa’s 1975 report, which was mentioned many times in the comments, is not outdated - scientists of this level think and make discoveries hundreds of years into the future.
    (report without abbreviations with formulas: https://ksv.ru/Exploring/Alien/Miscellaneous/misc_39.sht
    ml),
    Well, actually about windmills... About five years ago, a friend tried to connect his house in the village to a windmill, but was refused by the energy company without explanation, after rummaging around on the Internet, he came across an article where, in general, there was an answer...
    (thesis from the article link below: "...without state support, wind energy in its current state is doomed to commercial failure. This is confirmed by all countries where wind energy originates from public funds. This is further aggravated by the fact that not a single electrical system in its right mind will not want to take electricity generated by wind turbines. The fact is that wind turbines produce low-quality energy (see above discussion about current frequency). A complex of fairly serious equipment is required to correct this situation. Looking at the monitoring panel showing the production of a specific wind turbine, one is amazed "What you see. A wind turbine connected to the network during unstable or low winds not only sometimes provides, but sometimes also CONSUMES electricity from the power system to maintain its own rotation speed of the generator."
    "....For our country, wind energy is very relevant for the simple reason that there are a huge number of villages without a centralized power supply. However, it is important to understand that a wind turbine itself does not solve the problem of power supply as a whole. The installation itself is only the visible part of the iceberg "A wind turbine requires a huge amount of equipment to improve the quality of electricity, equipment for redundancy and duplication. In general, if we talk about the prospects of wind energy, the author of the material sees them in its integrated use with other renewable energy sources."
    Source: http://www.bnetweb.org/proxy/index.php?q=aHR0cDov
    L25ubTIuY29tL2Jsb2dzL2thYW51YmlzL2NodG9fbmFkb196b
    mF0X29fdmV0cm9lbmVyZ2V0aWtlLw%3D%3D
    1. 0
      13 December 2017 14: 08
      Just by the number of comments and debates, it is clear that the topic of energy will be relevant for a long time and the report of P.L. Kapitsa in 1975, which was mentioned many times in the comments, is not outdated - scientists of this level think and make discoveries hundreds of years into the future
      then why couldn’t he compress the gas to 1200 atm, but only to 3?
  59. 0
    12 December 2017 21: 32
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    What is the source of energy?
    type, power, price ?!

    - personally for you (I’m copying from where for some reason you don’t deign to read):
    6. Equipment costs?

    Many doubt the reality of my expenses.
    To begin with, I’ll inform you that the figure of 350 thousand rubles applies to all the equipment of the autonomous power supply system (except, of course, for the completely regular expenses for internal wiring in the house). This figure also does not include the costs of my “gravitap” - a supporting metal structure with a shed on the first level. This is already my personal “whim”, because the panels could be placed on the roof of the house, and the windmills on standard or “self-made” mast-extensions, which would entail much lower costs for the placement of these devices. For example, one of those who copied my system at home, found second-hand thick-walled pipes from oil industry workers for nothing and welded both structures (for panels and windmills). It turned out for him about 7-8 thousand rubles per circle with the foundation.

    In order to dispel all doubts about the costs, I will give here the names and the CURRENT retail price of all components as of the beginning of the summer of 2014, which I installed:

    - inverter MAP "Energy" for 6 kW - 51900 rubles.

    - solar panels - 6 pcs each at 150 W at a price of 7200 rubles / pcs and 4 panels at 230 W at a price of 11000 rubles / pc. Total all panels - for a total of 87200 rubles.

    - two wind turbines of 1,5 kW each with a face value of 42000 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

    - solar controller - about 10000 rubles.

    - two windmill controllers of 11000 rubles each - only 22000 rubles.

    - Battery Troyan 105 RE series - 8 pieces of 10500 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

    Only 339100 rubles (three hundred thirty-nine thousand one hundred rubles).

    The rest went to small things - cables, lugs and transportation costs.
    If we take the same type of panels of 200 W each (9 pieces to gain about the same power as mine), then it will cost not 87200 rubles, but 8100x9 = 72900 rubles, that is, even less by almost 15000 rubles.

    So there is NO rumors in the figure of 350 thousand rubles - NO.
    Additions:
    1 - so far I have systematically changed the configuration of my system (as I had originally expected) - added solar panels and left one wind generator. Thus, now I have a total of 3,8 kW of panels and a 1,5 kW wind generator that I am launching for the winter.
    2 - as of 2017, I can report that for the amount of about 350 thousand rubles it is possible to create a sufficiently powerful hybrid solar system with a minimum of batteries (or network, generally without the latter), which will cover a significant share of the needs of an average house. For autonomous solutions, the total amount of expenses for the equipment of the power supply system of such a house will start from about 400-500 thousand rubles.
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 22: 08
      Quote: nickd55
      For autonomous solutions, the total cost of equipment for the power supply system of such a house will start from approximately 400-500 thousand rubles.

      500 thousand and 5,3 kW
      water pump 1 kW
      washing machine 1.7
      dishwasher 1
      boiler 2,5
      and even 6.2 we fell outside your parameters
      At the same time, there is no light for all other household appliances as well as power tools that are necessary in a private household

      We put 500 thousand in one well-known metso
      1. 0
        13 December 2017 11: 24
        I don’t know what “not a balabol” is pushing into his head, but:
        1. There may not be an electric boiler at all (if there is network gas or a heat pump or another method of heating water in the hot water supply). And the boiler power may not be 2,5 but 1,5 kW (like mine, for example).
        2. Once again, it’s only you who “fell out” somewhere, because again for some reason you don’t want (or can’t?) see any other solutions other than installing more capacity and certainly taking it all in and turning it on at the same time. :)
        3. If we go back to my house, the peak power of my inverter is 9 kW.
        Nothing prevents any consumer from using an inverter of the power that will be convenient for him. For me personally, the power of my inverter is enough. :)
        So again you took yourself and just stuck it in some place. :) Continue on. :)
        1. 0
          13 December 2017 12: 48
          Quote: nickd55
          There may not be an electric boiler at all (if there is network gas or a heat pump or another method of heating water in the hot water supply). And the boiler power may not be 2,5 but 1,5 kW (like mine, for example).

          maybe 0.5 if you only wash your hands and I also sometimes take a shower several times a day, and if a family of 3-5 people, then your one and a half kilowatts can gently roll into 3-4
          gas is not a dream come true for most households in Russia
          Quote: nickd55
          Nothing prevents any consumer from using an inverter of the power that will be convenient for him. For me personally, the power of my inverter is enough. :)

          and we end up with such a price that this whole thing doesn’t make sense since the payback will exceed a quarter of a century
          1. 0
            13 December 2017 13: 30
            “Not a balabol,” you are again sucking some nonsense out of your finger. :)
            You need to look wider, deeper and further than your nose.
            I repeat once again - for each task there is a solution to the optimal configuration.
            Namely, it is the latter that allows the cost of solar kWh to reach about 3,5 rubles in the southern regions of the country. Whether this is a lot or a little and what task a person sets for himself in this case - let everyone decide for themselves. :)
            From my point of view, a reasonable person (who follows changes in the Legislation and learns to calculate his costs) will quickly understand that the ultimate goal should be to REDUCTION THE OPERATING COSTS of home ownership. And a hybrid SES is only one of the possible elements of a whole set of other important solutions that will allow the owner of a private house not only to minimize the cost of maintaining his household to the limit, but also to pay less property taxes in the future. :)
            Learn the materiel, and may you be rewarded... :)

            And here you are telling me about some electric stoves... :)
  60. 0
    12 December 2017 21: 36
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    A few years ago, half of Krasnodar and all suburban villages plunged into darkness for 5 days

    once again what do you have (not in the sense) power, type ?!

    - once again personally for you:
    6. Equipment costs?

    Many doubt the reality of my expenses.
    To begin with, I’ll inform you that the figure of 350 thousand rubles applies to all the equipment of the autonomous power supply system (except, of course, for the completely regular expenses for internal wiring in the house). This figure also does not include the costs of my “gravitap” - a supporting metal structure with a shed on the first level. This is already my personal “whim”, because the panels could be placed on the roof of the house, and the windmills on standard or “self-made” mast-extensions, which would entail much lower costs for the placement of these devices. For example, one of those who copied my system at home, found second-hand thick-walled pipes from oil industry workers for nothing and welded both structures (for panels and windmills). It turned out for him about 7-8 thousand rubles per circle with the foundation.

    In order to dispel all doubts about the costs, I will give here the names and the CURRENT retail price of all components as of the beginning of the summer of 2014, which I installed:

    - inverter MAP "Energy" for 6 kW - 51900 rubles.

    - solar panels - 6 pcs each at 150 W at a price of 7200 rubles / pcs and 4 panels at 230 W at a price of 11000 rubles / pc. Total all panels - for a total of 87200 rubles.

    - two wind turbines of 1,5 kW each with a face value of 42000 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

    - solar controller - about 10000 rubles.

    - two windmill controllers of 11000 rubles each - only 22000 rubles.

    - Battery Troyan 105 RE series - 8 pieces of 10500 rubles, a total of 84000 rubles.

    Only 339100 rubles (three hundred thirty-nine thousand one hundred rubles).

    The rest went to small things - cables, lugs and transportation costs.
    If we take the same type of panels of 200 W each (9 pieces to gain about the same power as mine), then it will cost not 87200 rubles, but 8100x9 = 72900 rubles, that is, even less by almost 15000 rubles.

    So there is NO rumors in the figure of 350 thousand rubles - NO.
    Additions:
    1 - so far I have systematically changed the configuration of my system (as I had originally expected) - added solar panels and left one wind generator. Thus, now I have a total of 3,8 kW of panels and a 1,5 kW wind generator that I am launching for the winter.
    2 - as of 2017, I can report that for the amount of about 350 thousand rubles it is possible to create a sufficiently powerful hybrid solar system with a minimum of batteries (or network, generally without the latter), which will cover a significant share of the needs of an average house. For autonomous solutions, the total amount of expenses for the equipment of the power supply system of such a house will start from about 400-500 thousand rubles.
  61. 0
    12 December 2017 21: 50
    Quote: kuznec

    The vast majority of nuclear power plants in the world have reactors using thermal low-energy neutrons, and use water as a coolant. Their operation requires uranium-238, enriched with the isotope uranium-235. The resource base of uranium-235 is being depleted very quickly, and in 20–30 years it will become very scarce. Where is the exit? The solution is to use fast neutron reactors,

    It can be added that Russia is the only country in which such reactors operate, albeit experimental ones. And we invest money in their development. There are many problems, but this is not thermonuclear fusion behind the clouds. Oh, it was not for nothing that the darkest one announced a plutonium ultimatum.
  62. +2
    12 December 2017 22: 17
    Quote: nickd55
    For 360 thousand rubles (6000 dollars) you can buy good equipment for solar power plants...

    I pay 1000 rubles for the light. It turns out that I have to pay in advance for 30 years. I can't live that long. And you also forgot to mention operating costs. For example, the inverter barked.
    Quote: nickd55
    In summer, on a good sunny day, this system will be able to collect up to 18-20 kWh; the excess can be officially sold to networks next year

    Something reminded me of the unforgettable Raikin, whose counter was spinning in the opposite direction
    1. 0
      12 December 2017 22: 26
      Quote: Timo
      Quote: nickd55
      For 360 thousand rubles (6000 dollars) you can buy good equipment for solar power plants...
      I pay 1000 rubles for the light. It turns out that I have to pay in advance for 30 years. I can't live that long. And you also forgot to mention operating costs. For example, the inverter barked


      How much do you pay for heating and hot water?
      1. 0
        13 December 2017 05: 55
        In winter up to 2000. On average, if you close one eye and squint the other, 700 rubles. Boiler 11 kW. How much will a 5 kW SES generate in winter?
        1. 0
          14 December 2017 14: 06
          Network gas is still the cheapest type of heating - a fact. I even calculated the cost per unit of heat for a dozen different fuel options. And if you ALREADY have it in the house, then there is no point in thinking about other heating options. :) Another thing is that even on the Black Sea coast we still have villages where people heat their houses with wood or electric boilers.
          Heating in general has many times more energy intensity (sometimes by an order of magnitude) than the standard power supply at home, so trying to heat a house with solar energy is, as a rule, completely futile, even for the south of the country. It is the sellers of solar collectors who lie to people that these devices can solve the heating problem. And then people come and call asking us to install a solar collector for heating. :) It takes a long time to explain and show with numbers... But in the absence of network gas and the presence of an electrical network, the heat pump rules (and a heat unit is more convenient and cheaper than other options).
          BUT! Under a number of conditions, it is possible to solve the problem of AUTONOMOUS heating in the conditions of Kuban and Crimea using the sun and wind, if:
          1. The house was initially designed and built for this task with minimal heat loss, with a rational location on the cardinal points, with some type of heat accumulator.
          2. The house uses a ground loop heat pump and a heat recuperator.
          3. There is sufficient power (calculated in relation to the natural conditions of the location) of a solar power plant and a wind generator.
          But, in any case, this is a most difficult engineering task even for the conditions of Kuban.
          At the same time, more widespread solutions in places where there is no network gas (if network electricity is available) will arise in the future as part of a hybrid solar power plant that works together with the networks. In this case, there is no need to install a ground circuit for the heat pump (costs will be lower), and the annual balance of consumption from the network can be reduced to zero.
      2. 0
        13 December 2017 10: 28
        Quote: Town Hall
        How much do you pay for heating and hot water?

        if you heat with an electric boiler, you will pay many times more, including for the generator, as I understand it, the “green” comrades are not at all aware of the loads, capacities and prices for all this
        1. 0
          14 December 2017 14: 07
          You understand VERY poorly even what you yourself write. :)
    2. 0
      14 December 2017 13: 47
      So what? Have I ever said that it makes sense to invest in renewable energy sources anywhere? :)
      And accidents on your network never happen at all? And you don’t spend any money or time on an emergency gas generator?
      Yes, for example, in Irkutsk the population still pays about 1 ruble per kWh due to the presence of a whole cascade of powerful hydroelectric power stations in the region. And there, if there is a network, there will be no economic sense for a long time to spend money on your solar power plant if the number of accidents in the network is small. But in other places the picture is radically different. As, for example, in Kuban and in neighboring regions (I wrote above the cost of kWh from the network).
      And also (you will laugh), but the option of twisting the meter in reverse has actually been working in the suburbs of Krasnodar for the third year now. :) This is SNT, in which a person uses an ancient bidirectional counter SO-505. He has a solar power plant with 3,5 kW panel rating, a 120 m2 house is well insulated, and a heat pump with a ground circuit for heating and hot water works. The meter turns in both directions, the surplus goes into the cooperative network, there are no batteries in the system. At the end of the year, the balance is close to zero. :) But this is exactly SNT, where there is a sane chairman. With a direct contract for electricity supply with electrical networks, such a number will not work yet, but next year the microgeneration system will officially allow the networks to sell surpluses.

      And also understand - I always and everywhere say that assessing the “payback” of SES is generally complete nonsense, just like calculating the “payback” of a personal car or household appliances. :)
      After all, all this only provides additional CONVENIENCE for life, and the question of spending money on it or not lies on an individual level.
      In relation to a personal solar power plant, it makes sense to calculate the cost of the kWh received over the estimated service life (taking into account all operating costs), evaluate your costs arising from network failures or insufficient power (or low quality electricity from the network), and from there draw more objective conclusions about the economic feasibility of using renewable energy sources in this particular location.
  63. 0
    13 December 2017 00: 21
    Quote: Mestny
    Mobile radiation power of about 1 watts. Is it possible to boil an egg with such power and for how long?


    At the first moment of a call, when the phone is looking for a base station, the power of some models can reach 2 watts.
  64. The comment was deleted.
  65. The comment was deleted.
  66. 0
    13 December 2017 01: 18
    Quote: Andvigor
    If you want to be a father - wrap lead eggs !!! :)))

    Victim of Unified State Examination education. As I hear, I write! EGGS!!!
  67. 0
    13 December 2017 09: 06
    Much in the energy sector depends on natural, economic and other factors. For example, in Norway, about 90% of electricity is produced at hydroelectric power stations of various capacities, which is facilitated by the natural terrain (fjords), without the need to flood large areas, as on lowland rivers. Production costs are one of the lowest in the world. At the same time, Norway is one of the leaders in oil and gas production. The French are world leaders in the percentage of energy generated at nuclear power plants, more than 80%. And, for example, Poland produces almost all its electricity at coal-fired power plants - this is facilitated by large coal deposits. It is not entirely correct to say that wind energy is unprofitable. For example, in Denmark, more than 40% is generated by wind turbines. And the percentage is likely to only increase, helped by stable winds between the Baltic and North Seas, where the country is located. The same applies to solar energy - in some places it is profitable, in others it is not..
  68. +2
    13 December 2017 13: 35
    Quote: kuznec
    ......Waste-free nuclear energy is just around the corner.


    Here are several, no longer new, articles where humanity’s gaze is directed in solving the energy problem in the future:
    "Treasure of the Moon - Helium-3"
    https://topwar.ru/24664-sokrovische-luny-geliy-3.
    html
    "Lunar helium 3 - thermonuclear fuel of the future"
    http://znaniya-sila.narod.ru/live/anknown_14_1.ht
    m
    http://znaniya-sila.narod.ru/live/anknown_14_2.ht
    m
    1. +1
      13 December 2017 14: 46
      It's still a long way from thermonuclear fusion. ITER is being built and built, but the end is not in sight. But in fact, it is only suitable for heating water in a pond. The rector of DEMO, which will provide electricity, is not even in the project, but in words.
      Meanwhile, fast neutron reactors have been operating for a long time (BN 800, BN 600). In 10 years, you see, they will go into series. They say you can even burn nuclear waste in them. If so, then this is generally a fairy tale. There is no need to transport Uranium 238 from the Moon. There will be enough of it on Earth for 1000 years. You can wait for thermonuclear fusion. The safety of nuclear reactors is increasing. Expensive for now. Traditional energy will become more expensive, alternative energy will probably become cheaper. But the resource of nuclear energy is much higher.
      1. +2
        13 December 2017 15: 14
        I agree, about the high resource of nuclear energy, in my opinion, even cheaper alternative energy will not completely replace traditional energy, at least in the next 100 years.
  69. 0
    14 December 2017 12: 54
    Vasilenko Vladimir,
    Sorry, but your empty balabolism is pure demagoguery, since you are not able to back up your verbal diarrhea and nonsense about the fact that I am “foisting bullshit on people.” :)) You are simply funny.
    But I am ready to answer for every word I say and for everything that I have already done and will continue to do useful to people.
    1. 0
      14 December 2017 13: 15
      well then answer once
      how much did your system cost, its power
      what are the monthly power consumption

      but for some reason you are afraid to voice this data, probably because it will show that the savings are 0.0000?
      1. +1
        14 December 2017 15: 59
        For nickd55
        The payback period for the solar power plant you cited in my conditions, as I already wrote, is 30 years. She's so much
        it just won't last.
        You ignore operating costs. The data you provided on armored batteries does not correspond to reality. But even if we believe you, we still need to change them. Breakdowns are inevitable during operation. If my power goes out, Uncle Vasya will come in a kirzach and fix everything. Let’s say your inverter is damaged, what is the delivery time for a new one?
        The system, in your own words, is not autonomous. You won’t last with it in winter, as the sellers honestly warn about.
        So what and to whom are you trying to prove?
        1. 0
          14 December 2017 16: 24
          Quote: Timo
          So what and to whom are you trying to prove?

          Pinocchio, that if you bury the money and say crack-fax-pex, a miracle will happen
          1. 0
            14 December 2017 20: 19
            I twist my finger at my temple... :))
        2. 0
          14 December 2017 20: 05
          What is the return on investment for your personal car or washing machine? :)
          Can you answer this question?
          I have already written my opinion about the “payback” of SES, I will not repeat it.
          And if you are going to compare something, then you need to do it correctly, taking into account ALL costs from all sides, so your subjective assessment is completely wrong.
          Sorry, but in my calculations of the cost of solar kWh, I EXACTLY take into account ALL operating costs based on 25 years of operation of the system (study my notes more carefully and you will see this), but you either did not notice this or ignore it. :)
          Please provide your data on armored batteries, then we’ll see what you’re talking about. :)
          For reference:
          - my Trojans (not armored, with a resource one and a half times less) under cyclic operating conditions with full autonomy have already been working for the sixth year. Why should I doubt that armored ones in the BUFFER mode (with cycling many times less!) will not be able to last up to 15-18 years? Moreover, armored technology has long been successfully used all over the world at energy facilities and has proven itself quite well.
          Those who wish, of course, can listen and believe the sellers from stores who will sweetly promise that gel ones (with a resource 3 times less than armored ones) will last 10-12 years - but this will be a pure lie. Even in buffer mode, they won’t last that long, but in cyclic mode, they will last 2-3 years (at best), and there are already enough examples of this.
          And if you haven’t noticed this, replacing armored batteries is included in my calculations. :)
          Possible repairs of the controller and inverter are also taken into account with a multiple margin. :)
          In order for equipment to work longer and fail less often, you must initially take equipment that is highly reliable and maintainable (which is what I recommend, taking into account practical experience) and then use it correctly. And if it breaks, so that repairs are accessible and not expensive. For those people in forced autonomy who, with my help, installed a solar power plant for themselves, even if they burned out their inverter themselves (this happened three times) - I install a replacement inverter for the duration of the repair and they live quietly for three or four weeks until their inverter returns from repair. In a hybrid system, in this case, everything is simpler - the person is connected to the network, repairs can be carried out without replacement. The inverters I recommend generally very rarely fail. In fact, out of about four dozen inverters, there has not yet been a single warranty repair or spontaneous failure after the end of the warranty; only the crooked hands of users have worked wonders so far. :) Once, in the third year of operation, the LED on the inverter’s display panel went out and not all parameters became visible - as planned, with the inverter replaced, they sent the device to the manufacturer and replaced the display panel - and that’s all.
          If you need special reliability in high-responsibility systems, there may be an individual solution with two inverters of different or equal power (depending on the goals and objectives). In three-phase systems, there is initially an inverter for each phase.
          The hybrid system - yes, is not autonomous and is not intended for complete autonomy at all. I repeat - where the network ALREADY exists, there is no point in completely disconnecting the latter. :)
          And WHY set the goal in winter not to consume anything from the network if it is available? Well, what's the point? :) It is more rational to have exactly the power of the solar power plant that, with a minimum battery capacity, provides the desired PART of consumption in the winter, and in the summer it covers at least everything, plus automatically sends the excess to the network. And - at the same time it provides the necessary reserve in case of a network failure at any time of the year (replacing all dances with a tambourine around the gas generator). The final ideal is a zero annual balance of consumption from the network. :)
          Autonomy in the presence of a network just for the sake of autonomy itself is nonsense or a manic desire to somehow “mess up” the networks. :)
          I’m just sharing with you my accumulated experience now to show options for the rational use of renewable energy sources in some cases, that’s all. :)
          1. 0
            14 December 2017 20: 23
            Quote: nickd55
            What is the return on investment for your personal car or washing machine? :)
            Can you answer this question?

            I'm talking balabol
            Although it’s not difficult to calculate the payback for a washing machine, take the cost of laundry and delivery on the one hand, on the other hand, the cost of lipstick and detergents on the other, plus the cost of depreciation of the equipment

            As I understand it, you don’t even know what feasibility study is, although when you sell it to suckers you don’t need it
            1. 0
              14 December 2017 21: 37
              “Don’t be a fool” - compare the cost of a washing machine with the cost of a manual washboard (it’s cheaper than a laundry). :) And the cost of a personal car is with tickets for a bus or for buying a bicycle (this is cheaper than a taxi). :)
              Do you want to get a feasibility study for yourself here? Sorry, this is not for me. :)
      2. 0
        14 December 2017 19: 22
        Are you generally healthy? :) I have already copied a whole article about this many times (with full content and all costs) here personally for you from where you for some reason cannot or do not want to read.
        In principle, there is no meter in my house, so I can only roughly estimate my average monthly consumption - in the summer about 500-600 kWh per month, in the winter - about 350-400.
        What kind of savings can we even talk about in my case? :) Compared to what?
        With 1,5-2 million rubles, who wanted to get electricity from my neighbors for connecting to the line? :) I ALREADY wrote to you here that my system “paid for itself” instantly, since I spent 4-5 times less than the networks wanted and have not paid anything to anyone for the 6th year. :))
        You can add to the amount of my savings the fact that I bought the land (23 acres of individual housing construction in an open field without communications in the suburbs of Krasnodar) for 50 thousand rubles, and with the funds saved I eventually built a house and equipped it with my own engineering systems and energy sources. :)
        1. 0
          14 December 2017 20: 24
          Quote: nickd55
          With 1,5-2 million rubles, who wanted to get electricity from my neighbors for connecting to the line? :) I ALREADY wrote to you here that my system “paid for itself” instantly, since I spent 4-5 times less than the networks wanted and have not paid anything to anyone for the 6th year. :))

          "name sister, name"
          that is, you are lying that for 300 thousand you installed an autonomous source of 9 kW?!!!
          keep talking to Pinocchio
          1. 0
            14 December 2017 21: 42
            Try to substantiate your next unfounded accusation. :)
            Please note, if necessary, I can easily document PROOF all costs for the equipment of my system incurred more than 5 years ago.
            Everything was purchased completely officially. :)
            1. 0
              14 December 2017 21: 53
              Well, prove it and give the full amount of costs and the amount of energy received
              so far only - “I can prove”
              1. 0
                15 December 2017 14: 01
                “Not a balabol”, you accused me of lying - now the move is yours. First you must provide evidence of your stupid speculations. And then I will be ready to file a lawsuit against you for libel and protection of my honor and dignity (if you don’t chicken out and hide), and there I will present all the accounting documents for the equipment purchased for my system. It's all right? :) Everything is grown-up.
  70. +1
    14 December 2017 21: 29
    Quote: nickd55
    With 1,5-2 million rubles, who wanted to get electricity from my neighbors for connecting to the line? :) I ALREADY wrote to you here that my system “paid for itself” instantly, since I spent 4-5 times less than the networks wanted and have not paid anything to anyone for the 6th year. :))

    Curious, what is that kind of money for? Under such conditions it is understandable. I would pay even more for the SES.
    Do not consider it intrusive, but I will repeat. From your words, we can assume that you are autonomous, since you don’t pay anyone. You said that in Volgograd you can collect 5000 kWh in a year. Let’s say there are 6000 in Krasnodar. That’s 500 per month.
    The difference between winter and summer is seven, eight, ten times. (please clarify if this is not the case). Without going into arithmetic subtleties, we can assume that in winter you will not have more than 100 kWh (excuse the pun).
    Two questions.
    1. Are you without power grids?
    2. What about in winter? Your 400 kWh is not very plausible.
    Don't be angry, I'm just curious.
    1. +1
      15 December 2017 14: 22
      This is a question for the networks. We can draw more. :) A farmer nearby was quoted 4 million, another farmer three years ago - 2,5 million, plus they were warned that for losses in a kilometer line they would still add a ruble and a half (with the standard price for such 8-9 rubles/kWh) . As a result, both solved the problem at a fraction of the cost and provide themselves with energy.

      No, for Krasnodar the difference in energy received from the sun in winter compared to summer is on average about 2-2,5 times.
      The reason here is that our weather very rarely lasts more than 2-3 deeply cloudy days in a row; the sun appears every week. In addition, in winter, standard panels have 10-15% higher productivity due to the temperature coefficient. Therefore, in winter, in any month (and the worst are November, December and January), my 3,8 kW panels collect much more than 100 kWh, at the very minimum about 250-280 per month. Look at the weather archive for Krasnodar, for example, on Gismeteo. There are never less than 10 sunny days a month, even in December.
      Answers to two questions:
      1. Yes, I have been without power grids for six years, but also without any centralized communications at all (I have already written here more than once).
      2. In winter, the wind also helps me.
  71. 0
    15 December 2017 04: 22
    This is camouflaged embezzlement under a good pretext. Previously, in Ontario they simply stole 6 billion dollars under the pretext of building gas turbine power plants, but now they don’t want scandals and are doing everything smartly.
    1. 0
      15 December 2017 15: 32
      Thanks nickd55, enlightened me. I thought that home alternative energy was the indulgence of fans or a whim of the rich.
      1. 0
        15 December 2017 16: 09
        Quote: Timo
        I thought that home alternative energy was the indulgence of fans or a whim of the rich.

        that's what he and people like him are counting on
      2. 0
        15 December 2017 18: 59
        Home alternative energy, at least in the southern regions of the country, in the coming years will turn into a standard household engineering system in many private homes, which increases the level of comfort, protection from accidents and at the same time saves money. The achieved level of cost of solar kWh will contribute to this.
        Moreover, the Government intends next year to begin implementing a Comprehensive Energy Efficiency Improvement Plan, according to which private houses will also be assigned a category, as they are now on refrigerators - A, A+, A++, A+++. And those who fall into the energy efficient category will be given various “goodies”. For example, property taxes will be significantly reduced. And home SES is one of the elements of energy saving.
        And options for building private houses, initially using a whole range of energy-saving solutions and equipment, will become increasingly popular for economic reasons - the cost of operating them will be several times lower than that of standard houses now.
        I write more about all this on my website.
        1. 0
          15 December 2017 19: 42
          Quote: nickd55
          and at the same time, it saves money. The achieved level of cost of solar kWh will contribute to this.

          you're funny, what kind of savings are you talking about?!
          price under lam at today's tariffs payback up to 20 years, what are the savings
          1. 0
            17 December 2017 19: 50
            I give a complete breakdown of ALL costs, including ALL operating costs, based on 25 years of operation of the solar system. So, during this time, the solar power plant in Kuban is capable of producing so much electricity that its price (I repeat - taking into account ALL costs!) will be about 3,5 rubles/kWh, which is significantly cheaper than from a power outlet for the majority of the region’s population and several times cheaper than the commercial rate. A reasonable person can also calculate the approximate dynamics of the cost of a kWh from an outlet, provided that it grows by 4% every year, as a result of which he will see unexpectedly interesting figures and will be able to be convinced of the direct economic benefit of such an investment (.under these conditions). An even more intelligent person will be able to calculate his costs for an emergency gas generator and its maintenance and find out the amount of money that he can exclude from his costs, since he will no longer need the gas generator. An even more reasonable person will understand that calculating the “payback” of a solar power plant is meaningless in principle, just like calculating the “payback” of a personal car, washing machine or any other household device or equipment.
            But an unreasonable person will waste precious time from himself and other people by asking stupid questions, associated, as a rule, with a reluctance to even read what is already right in front of his nose. :)
  72. 0
    15 December 2017 16: 30
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: Timo
    I thought that home alternative energy was the indulgence of fans or a whim of the rich.

    that's what he and people like him are counting on

    Getting into this grater, I looked at the electricity pole 10 meters from the house and thought - what do I need it for? Even now I’m not going to stand in line for the SES. I can’t even afford a gasoline generator for an emergency. Blackouts aren't that annoying.
    If you were a farmer, and you were charged a million for connecting to the bright present, I think that your intransigence would fade somewhat.
    1. 0
      15 December 2017 18: 51
      Quote: Timo
      If you were a farmer

      I live on a farm, I raise goats
      Quote: Timo
      and you would be charged a million for connecting to the bright present

      for the connection of three phases of 20 kW they asked for 200-300 thousand
      1. 0
        15 December 2017 20: 49
        Learn the materiel - personal subsidiary farming is NOT EQUAL to peasant farming.
        1. 0
          15 December 2017 21: 12
          and where did you get the idea that I write LPH?!!!
          I talked about this somewhere, I think not
          1. 0
            16 December 2017 21: 10
            “I live on a farm, I raise goats” - this phrase of yours speaks, rather, specifically about private household plots than about peasant farms.
            1. 0
              16 December 2017 22: 17
              this phrase says that I live on a farm and raise goats and nothing else
              She doesn’t talk about the type of ownership or economic activity at all
    2. 0
      15 December 2017 19: 06
      A year ago, one of my neighbors (he lives closer to the built-up area of ​​the village), across the road from which there is a main gas pipe at a distance of no more than a hundred meters, gas workers rolled out a technical specification with an amount of 14 million rubles. :)
      1. 0
        15 December 2017 19: 43
        the back does not hurt ?!
        http://gaz.tgv-nn.ru/?utm_source=yadir&utm_me
        dium=cpc&utm_campaign=poisk_k&utm_term=by
        connections%20gas%20Nizhny%20Novgorod&yclid=7
        467382414959974636
        http://zhkhinfo.ru/novosti/novye-pravila-podklyuc
        heniya-gaza-k-chastnomu-domu-v-2016-godu.html
        1. 0
          15 December 2017 20: 44
          No headache? :) If you don’t hide (and you will hide), then I will bring a copy of this neighbor’s TU to the trial with you. :) And I’ll bring you a pack as well. :)
          1. 0
            15 December 2017 21: 13
            Quote: nickd55
            then to the court with you I will bring a copy of this neighbor’s terms of reference.

            well, post a copy here, what is the problem or is it the same with the power and price of your equipment - words, words, words
            1. 0
              16 December 2017 21: 17
              The only problem is time - that's all. I need to look in the lists of 60 people for exactly that neighbor who rushed to our general meeting and showed everyone this specification for gasification for 14 million, and then find out if he threw it in the trash. I’ll ask my wife to find my specifications for connecting the power supply and post them here.
              In general, it’s not difficult for you to dig around on the Kuban.ru Forum and even create a topic there - people will quickly lay out a whole bunch of technical specifications for you with crazy numbers.
              1. 0
                16 December 2017 22: 18
                Quote: nickd55
                The only problem is time - that's all

                problem is lack of data
                Quote: nickd55
                In general, it’s not difficult for you to dig around on the Kuban.ru Forum and even create a topic there - people will quickly lay out a whole bunch of technical specifications for you with crazy numbers.

                so I dug around and found only the same numbers as you voice NO
            2. 0
              16 December 2017 21: 55

              Watch and enjoy - 5 million 721 thousand
              1. 0
                16 December 2017 21: 57

                And from there too
                1. 0
                  16 December 2017 22: 21
                  what exactly, you are specifically driving bullshit, which is included in 5 lyams, laying a 5 km high-voltage line or simply connecting a house to the network, what are you turning on the fool?

                  Please note: from 14 lyams we dropped to 5
                  I think that if we give a full explanation of the cost, it will turn out that you have cheated again
                  1. 0
                    17 December 2017 10: 29
                    Read THREE TIMES what I wrote about 14 million, maybe then everything will dawn on you (although hopes are rapidly fading). :))
                    1. 0
                      17 December 2017 12: 07
                      the cost of your home generator, its power and average monthly consumption?!!
                      Or will you continue to spin around like an eel in a frying pan?
                      1. 0
                        17 December 2017 19: 00
                        Go to the doctor, please. :) I have already copied here TWICE the entire schedule, which was described long ago with all the cost amounts on my website in the “Question and Answer” section. :)) How many times do you have to have something shoved right up your nose before you finally read it? :)
                      2. 0
                        17 December 2017 19: 01
                        And I have already described the average monthly consumption here. :)
              2. 0
                16 December 2017 22: 19
                for what?!!!
                for connecting a factory, a barn, laying a 15 kV line?!!!
                1. 0
                  17 December 2017 10: 35
                  You feel bad? Can you read? :)
                  Object - electrical installations of a residential building (private house in a low-rise building area of ​​the individual housing construction category).
                  1. 0
                    17 December 2017 12: 11
                    Quote: nickd55
                    You feel bad? Can you read? :)

                    no, you just don’t know how to write, or don’t want to
                    What is included in the installation, laying a line (which one, how many), installing supports (which ones, how many), installing a PT (which one), etc.?
                    1. 0
                      17 December 2017 19: 56
                      Should I definitely take pictures of the whole pack and post it here? :)
            3. 0
              16 December 2017 22: 00

              - so, are you ready to sue me and, perhaps, like any decent person, at least publicly apologize here for your slander?
              1. 0
                16 December 2017 22: 22
                Sorry, laying a 10 kV line and connecting a house are somewhat different things, you are fooling everyone
                1. 0
                  17 December 2017 10: 38
                  If for some reason it still hasn’t dawned on you, there is NOTHING to connect to in an open field. :)) So they draw the laying of a piece of line, first for 10 kV, and then 0,4 kV plus a substation with all the bells and whistles. :)
                  1. 0
                    17 December 2017 12: 12
                    you built a house in an open field?!
                    well then, excuse me, don't show off
                    1. 0
                      17 December 2017 20: 00
                      Good morning! :) Less than a week has passed before it STARTS to dawn on you that I originally built my house in an open field (which I wrote about many times both here and on my website already on the very first page. :)
                2. 0
                  17 December 2017 19: 57
                  I twist my finger at my temple again. :))
        2. 0
          15 December 2017 20: 52
          Another example - a man who had a house built a couple of years ago in a built-up part of the city, the gas workers initially drew more than a million specifications, but in the end they managed to fight back and now they promise to solve the issue for 200 thousand (the Government Decree on this issue helped).
    3. 0
      15 December 2017 20: 47
      I will add:
      - when a year and a half ago, a friend of mine, an energy engineer, talked me into applying for technical specifications for my private house, but on behalf of an individual entrepreneur, for the sake of sport, they drew 5 million rubles for me. :) There's a stack of pieces of paper lying around somewhere.
      1. 0
        15 December 2017 21: 17
        words words words

        According to Resolution No. 2011 adopted in 129, if the power consumption is up to 15 kW, and the distance from the site to the nearest pole is 300 and 500 meters (depending on the type of settlement), the cost of connecting electricity will be 550 rubles.
        http://stroychik.ru/elektrika/podklyuchenie-elekt
        richestva-k-domu-i-uchastku
        http://primarielt.ru/elektrofikacija/
        1. 0
          16 December 2017 22: 06
          I have known this for a long time and perfectly. Firstly, I had about 600 meters. And also - come down to earth, we don’t even have such “miracles” in Kuban. It's not difficult to check.
          1. 0
            16 December 2017 22: 26
            Quote: nickd55
            I had about 600 meters.

            and why did you charge 600 lyams for laying 380 meters 14 V?!
            1. 0
              17 December 2017 10: 39
              For the fourth time, first read about 14 million, and then write something so as not to look so stupid. :)
              1. 0
                17 December 2017 12: 12
                It's hard to look stupider than you
  73. 0
    15 December 2017 21: 03
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir

    I live on a farm, I raise goats
    for the connection of three phases of 20 kW they asked for 200-300 thousand

    What do you mean by connection?
    What if the nearest pole is 3 km away, and you pull alone or in a small company?
    Actually, for such cases, SES and so on are effective. Home alternative energy has its own niche. Just like big energy.
    1. 0
      15 December 2017 21: 19
      Quote: Timo
      What if the nearest pole is 3 km away, and you pull alone or in a small company?

      I see, why not build a new substation?!!!
      if you put your house in the forest, then have the nerve to demand another two-lane road to your house fool
      1. 0
        16 December 2017 08: 35
        I also pulled nets six years ago. Sharing for two hundred yards, within the city limits. There were no exorbitant sums. The actual connection is a different matter. Energy engineers are greyhounds these days. But you can still overcome it.
        nickd55, what did 1,5 million consist of?
        1. 0
          16 December 2017 22: 25
          I just posted my specifications here for 5,7 million, the cost structure is visible there.
          The neighbors had specifications for 1,65 million and 1,85 million, but I did not look at the certificate for calculating the amounts. I think that the cost structure itself is approximately the same everywhere.
          1. 0
            17 December 2017 08: 17
            Quote: nickd55
            I just posted my specifications here for 5,7 million, the cost structure is visible there.

            Unlike you, I have drawn up more than one document on calculations, but in your piece of paper there is nothing visible, there is a figure of 5 lyams, but for what is not, maybe for a mouse pad, or maybe for a dog kennel
            1. 0
              17 December 2017 10: 41
              Check your vision. I have posted a sheet with a complete breakdown of the amount here. :))
              1. 0
                17 December 2017 12: 14
                Quote: nickd55
                A sheet with a complete breakdown of the amount

                amount, but not a description of why this amount was not delivered
                1. 0
                  17 December 2017 20: 05
                  I’ll repeat it again, because I assume that you definitely need to write about the same thing multiple times:
      2. 0
        16 December 2017 22: 22
        Do you have any idea of ​​the amount required for the construction and commissioning of a new substation at your own expense? :)
        Which should then be transferred free of charge to the balance of power grids (that is, for nothing).
        Well, why the hell am I so happy?
        This is a widespread bad practice among us - to force people to build new substations and lines at their own expense instead of networks, and then simply transfer all this to the networks for free.
        And in the situation with the specifications for the gasification of a private house of one of my neighbors (for 14 million) - there was exactly the same attempt - for a person to build a new gas distribution station and a piece of a new main pipe at his own expense, and then donate all this to the gas workers. :)
        And yes - the village is located within Krasnodar, all plots in my zone are classified as individual housing construction. Only our administration doesn’t give a damn (Ilyich).
        About a year and a half ago, neighbors broke into the regional Legislative Assembly to the chairman of the committee on the fuel and energy complex (he turned out to be a decent person), there the power engineers were torn out in full and immediately found money, so much so that on the very New Year (!) on December 30, they caught up with the equipment and brought in the poles and the process began. Now part of our field has already been electrified and the neighbors on the side have already connected for exactly 550 rubles (plus for small pieces of hardware and labor - 30 thousand rubles), but I will not, in principle, connect for any money until the Microgeneration Program starts working ( on my initiative, work has been going on in the Government for a long time and it will definitely start working next year!), through which I will be able to sell surplus to networks. Only after this will I turn my system into a hybrid one.
        1. 0
          17 December 2017 08: 16
          Quote: nickd55
          Do you have any idea of ​​the amount required for the construction and commissioning of a new substation at your own expense? :)

          hmm everything is neglected
          Quote: nickd55
          This is a widespread bad practice among us - to force people to build new substations and lines at their own expense instead of networks, and then simply transfer all this to the networks for free.

          We have a widespread practice of being Pinocchio
          Quote: nickd55
          And in the situation with the specifications for the gasification of a private house of one of my neighbors (for 14 million) - there was exactly the same attempt - for a person to build a new gas distribution station and a piece of a new main pipe at his own expense, and then donate all this to the gas workers. :)

          Well, if he is rich and stupid, then these are his personal problems
          Quote: nickd55
          but on principle I will not connect for any money until the Microgeneration Program starts working

          yes your problems
          1. 0
            17 December 2017 10: 42
            Again I twist my finger at my temple. :)
            1. 0
              17 December 2017 12: 15
              are you looking in the mirror?
        2. +1
          17 December 2017 20: 50
          Quote: nickd55
          Do you have any idea of ​​the amount required for the construction and commissioning of a new substation at your own expense? :)
          Which should then be transferred free of charge to the balance of power grids (that is, for nothing).
          Well, why the hell am I so happy?
          This is a widespread bad practice among us - to force people to build new substations and lines at their own expense instead of networks, and then simply transfer all this to the networks for free.
          And in the situation with the specifications for the gasification of a private house of one of my neighbors (for 14 million) - there was exactly the same attempt - for a person to build a new gas distribution station and a piece of a new main pipe at his own expense, and then donate all this to the gas workers. :)
          And yes - the village is located within Krasnodar, all plots in my zone are classified as individual housing construction. Only our administration doesn’t give a damn (Ilyich).
          About a year and a half ago, neighbors broke into the regional Legislative Assembly to the chairman of the committee on the fuel and energy complex (he turned out to be a decent person), there the power engineers were torn out in full and immediately found money, so much so that on the very New Year (!) on December 30, they caught up with the equipment and brought in the poles and the process began. Now part of our field has already been electrified and the neighbors on the side have already connected for exactly 550 rubles (plus for small pieces of hardware and labor - 30 thousand rubles), but I will not, in principle, connect for any money until the Microgeneration Program starts working ( on my initiative, work has been going on in the Government for a long time and it will definitely start working next year!), through which I will be able to sell surplus to networks. Only after this will I turn my system into a hybrid one.

          All your (and ours too) troubles are connected with the monopoly of the state (the most merciless and invincible of all types of monopolist). The state has many ways to destroy a private monopolist. Of course, humanistic ones are the allocation of cheap credit for the organization of parallel production, the imposition of a high tax on the high prices of the monopolist, there is the police. there is an army. But what to do with the monopolist state? After all, all the listed levers in this case work to protect the monopolist.
          1. 0
            18 December 2017 14: 39
            Are you proposing to destroy the state? :) I'm not a supporter of anarchy.
            And I solved my problems a long time ago in a completely reasonable way.
        3. +1
          18 December 2017 12: 36
          Quote: nickd55
          Do you have any idea of ​​the amount required for the construction and commissioning of a new substation at your own expense? :)
          Which should then be transferred free of charge to the balance of power grids (that is, for nothing).
          Well, why the hell am I so happy?
          This is a widespread bad practice among us - to force people to build new substations and lines at their own expense instead of networks, and then simply transfer all this to the networks for free.
          And in the situation with the specifications for the gasification of a private house of one of my neighbors (for 14 million) - there was exactly the same attempt - for a person to build a new gas distribution station and a piece of a new main pipe at his own expense, and then donate all this to the gas workers. :)
          And yes - the village is located within Krasnodar, all plots in my zone are classified as individual housing construction. Only our administration doesn’t give a damn (Ilyich).
          About a year and a half ago, neighbors broke into the regional Legislative Assembly to the chairman of the committee on the fuel and energy complex (he turned out to be a decent person), there the power engineers were torn out in full and immediately found money, so much so that on the very New Year (!) on December 30, they caught up with the equipment and brought in the poles and the process began. Now part of our field has already been electrified and the neighbors on the side have already connected for exactly 550 rubles (plus for small pieces of hardware and labor - 30 thousand rubles), but I will not, in principle, connect for any money until the Microgeneration Program starts working ( on my initiative, work has been going on in the Government for a long time and it will definitely start working next year!), through which I will be able to sell surplus to networks. Only after this will I turn my system into a hybrid one.

          Let me disappoint you. You will never be able to connect to the grid with the ability to return energy to the grid. Installing a generator that provides you with energy, isolated and independent, is simple. But to generate energy and GIVE OUT means fulfilling a million energy quality requirements. Look at the standards governing these requirements. Giving it to the network is not just synchronizing your generator in frequency, voltage and phase. This means hanging it with a variety of devices that not only ensure quality, but also safety. Example - There is a short circuit on the line. The power engineers send a brigade and it begins work. Moreover, the work begins by turning off all sources supplying electricity here and short-circuiting the line both to the left and to the right of the work site. What if you find yourself INSIDE this area and use your generator to kill the person working on the wires? What if the shorts kill your generator? Any generating enterprise must be certified by inspection services. If a simple connection requires a lot of money, then rest assured that you will not have enough money for certification. Further. Are you going to fight the monopoly of energy companies, which, in general, belong to the state? Without an energy supply agreement, you will not be able to supply it. But will you fulfill the quantity, time, terms, and responsibilities usually written down in contracts? Let's. And report the results.
  74. +1
    17 December 2017 15: 00
    The accounting calculations are convincing. But this article is missing, perhaps, the MAIN THING. The fact is that all “green” methods of energy generation are cyclical. The wind does not always blow, the sun does not always shine, the tide is cyclical, etc.
    So, if we add here the disadvantages of traditional energy (all of them) - this is the inability to turn off when there is “green” energy and turn on when there is none, then it turns out that it is forced to work all the time, including when it is redundant. It follows that the greater the amount of “green” energy, the greater the costs of traditional energy. The fundamental solution to the problem is not storage in the form of batteries or pumping into high-altitude reservoirs, which will only increase prices, but connecting the entire Earth’s electrical network into a Unified Energy Network. The sun shines on the Earth around the clock. The wind blows at least somewhere on Earth. But will we, people, be able to come to an agreement?

    https://bezgin.su/articles/140-jenergetika/55857-
    solnechnye-jel-fy-kalifornii-chast-1
    1. 0
      17 December 2017 20: 08
      I think that storage devices will play a role here over time, as well as improving methods of transmitting energy over long distances with minimal losses.
      1. 0
        17 December 2017 22: 54
        Quote: nickd55
        I think that storage devices will play a role here over time, as well as improving methods of transmitting energy over long distances with minimal losses.

        Long distance transmission.
        The most fun part of the conversation. For us, with our time zones, this is quite expensive, but from a political point of view, it is quite. How to connect a hundred uluses of Europe with their heterogeneity, competition and hidden interests?
  75. +2
    18 December 2017 00: 03
    Quote: sharp-lad
    Partially agree, but much depended on local leadership! Where I lived in Soviet times, there were problems with food (everyone had everything, but had to stand in line), motor vehicles (who had funds for cars didn’t walk on cars), furniture (ordered through a store and waited three or four months), mopeds stood in the store almost without disappearing, IL brand motorcycles were delivered monthly, Java motorcycle, who wanted to wait and buy, who did not want to wait, could buy IL, and so on! The city authorities really worked and therefore in my city there was no total deficit. City of Gulbene, LSSR.
    P.S. The number of citizens did not reach 10 people ..

    Due to the nature of my work, I went on business trips several times a month. From Siberia to the Center. Designer and worked with customers. On every business trip I bought a new notebook. I knew all the women's sizes of the employees. The department is not small, 160 people. It was only thanks to this that my wife was at the top..... Friends, colleagues, were in Kyiv and bought a Dnepr motorcycle there. Scoundrels, how and where did they get a letter (maybe just a form) from the Regional Committee of the CPSU. And they themselves printed the text of a letter to the store with a request to help the young engineer.... etc. Only thanks to this scam they were able... I brought home red fish from Ukraine. Although she is never there and nowhere. It was found here in Russia, and nowhere else. Then fate brought me to Tajikistan. I sent friends in Siberia several washing machines called "Siberia-5". This, by the way, is one of the reasons for the desire to throw off all those whom we..... (I will not offend with words.).
  76. 0
    18 December 2017 12: 12
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    In the past (2016) in Dagestan, the yield was 54 centners per hectare, the sowing material was Russian. Not elite.

    game with numbers
    firstly, Dagestan is not quite an exact figure
    secondly, if you take the data, there are no special changes by region, but there was a record but not many times, and this record is not kept at the same time, if you take on average the figure will be 26, 8
    the union gave an average of 15, but again this average figure because the Kazakh SSR, due to its characteristics, gave lower yields

    However, THEN we were the largest buyer of grain, and now the largest seller. And this is despite a significant reduction in acreage. You are trying to hide your achievements. THEN, yields varied sharply not only in different regions, but also among their closest neighbors. Now the results are quite solid. The farmer does not need postscripts in reports. You are the one juggling with average numbers. We need not averages, but weighted averages. Take care of searching for THESE, and try to do the calculations again. Get a completely different picture.
  77. 0
    18 December 2017 12: 57
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    You incorrectly define the capabilities of the system.

    - Do you even understand that I have been living for six years in conditions of complete autonomy? :)
    And how can I “not imagine” something on this topic if it is vital for me?
    I am against trackers, if only because I know the strength of hurricane winds, which can easily disable the entire structure. In addition, trackers cost a lot of money and, in my opinion, it is simpler and more reliable for the cost of a tracker not purchased to simply add some more solar panels to the system.
    1. +1
      18 December 2017 13: 06
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      You incorrectly define the capabilities of the system.

      - Do you even understand that I have been living for six years in conditions of complete autonomy? :)
      And how can I “not imagine” something on this topic if it is vital for me?
      I am against trackers, if only because I know the strength of hurricane winds, which can easily disable the entire structure. In addition, trackers cost a lot of money and, in my opinion, it is simpler and more reliable for the cost of a tracker not purchased to simply add some more solar panels to the system.

      Did you not understand that I am writing about the difficulties of supplying energy to the state grid? Autonomously - for God’s sake, generate, use and live for a hundred years. Moreover, you can generate in different ways at the same time. How you will combine different generators or work in isolation is up to you.
      A generator with the ability to operate on a NETWORK costs an order of magnitude more than a generator without synchronizers. The system that allows you to work on the network becomes more complicated and becomes more expensive.
      Another very funny question - will you be able to provide supply power in dynamic mode, when state energy is a couple of volts less than the standard, and your system is of such high quality that it delivers exactly according to GOST? It seems that you are not an expert in energy, since you do not know the simplest questions.
  78. 0
    18 December 2017 13: 06
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    In order to use solar panels to charge batteries during daylight hours with a consumption of 15 (?) kW and eat the rest of the time, which is at least 16 hours a day, an area of ​​half a hectare is needed.

    - Let me explain:
    Above there was a conversation about a private house. How many private houses do you know with a consumption of 15 kW 24 hours a day? :)
    And I recommend that people first put things in order in their “conservatory”, and then count and think with their own heads what and how can be useful in relation to their goals, objectives, volume and mode of consumption.
    In addition, there may not be a goal to compensate for ALL consumption at all, since this may not always make sense. As for my own home, I ONLY use solar and wind, since I have not been physically connected to the grid for the sixth year (again). And all my consumption is optimized. I repeat (I wrote about this here too) - in summer my consumption can reach up to 600 kWh per month, in winter - 350-400.
    1. 0
      18 December 2017 14: 19
      Then how to understand yours:
      Quote: nickd55

      About a year and a half ago, neighbors broke into the regional Legislative Assembly to the chairman of the committee on the fuel and energy complex (he turned out to be a decent person), there the power engineers were torn out in full and immediately found money, so much so that on the very New Year (!) on December 30, they caught up with the equipment and brought in the poles and the process began. Now part of our field has already been electrified and the neighbors on the side have already connected for exactly 550 rubles (plus for small pieces of hardware and labor - 30 thousand rubles), but I will not, in principle, connect for any money until the Microgeneration Program starts working ( on my initiative, work has been going on in the Government for a long time and it will definitely start working next year!), through which I will be able to sell surplus to networks. Only after this will I turn my system into a hybrid one.


      This is exactly what I criticize.
      And the autonomous system - may Christ meet you.
  79. +2
    18 December 2017 13: 48
    Yeah! I suggest the disputing parties take a break, an interesting article “How much do utilities cost in other countries?”
    quote from the article: "... in Germany, the cost of electricity itself and the services of the supplier company do not reach even half the amount in the bill that is received monthly by the owner or tenant of the home. The rest is numerous taxes and fees. So, 23,6% is a mandatory fee for the development of renewable energy sources, 16% - value added tax, 7% - electricity tax, 5,7% - the so-called concession fee.

    source: http://proved.rf/society/consumer-market/45538-sk
    olyko-stoyat-kommunalynye-uslugi-v-dpugih-stpanah
    .html?utm_source=finobzor.ru
    1. 0
      18 December 2017 14: 44
      Quote: iaroslav.mudryi
      Yeah! I suggest the disputing parties take a break, an interesting article “How much do utilities cost in other countries?”
      quote from the article: "... in Germany, the cost of electricity itself and the services of the supplier company do not reach even half the amount in the bill that is received monthly by the owner or tenant of the home. The rest is numerous taxes and fees. So, 23,6% is a mandatory fee for the development of renewable energy sources, 16% - value added tax, 7% - electricity tax, 5,7% - the so-called concession fee.

      source: http://proved.rf/society/consumer-market/45538-sk
      olyko-stoyat-kommunalynye-uslugi-v-dpugih-stpanah
      .html?utm_source=finobzor.ru

      I looked at the Russian-language Canadian forum. It described procedures for housekeeping. For example, if you are even a three-time electrical engineer and you need to replace an electrical outlet, you do not have the right to do the work yourself. Only by inviting a company licensed to carry out this work. If the toilet was replaced (also through a licensed specialist), we are required to file a tax change declaration. Renovated housing costs more and, hence, taxes.... The punishment is immediate and severe - deprivation of insurance with the ensuing consequences. Or regard the actions as tax evasion. And this is a prison.
      1. 0
        18 December 2017 18: 40
        Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
        For example, if you are even a three-time electrical engineer and you need to replace an electrical outlet, you do not have the right to do the work yourself. Only by inviting a company licensed to carry out this work.

        How will they know what has been replaced?!
    2. 0
      18 December 2017 18: 46
      “An interesting article “How much do utilities cost in other countries?” - this in no way applies to us.
      1. +2
        18 December 2017 20: 21
        Quote: nickd55
        “An interesting article “How much do utilities cost in other countries?” - this in no way applies to us.

        Who knows, who knows!? In the era of globalization, many things in Russia are being unified with Western standards: laws, education, you see, and tariffs will be raised to their level, and laws will be rewritten to match Western ones.
  80. 0
    18 December 2017 14: 53
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Let me disappoint you. You will never be able to connect to the grid with the ability to return energy to the grid. Installing a generator that provides you with energy, isolated and independent, is simple. But to generate energy and GIVE OUT means fulfilling a million energy quality requirements. Look at the standards governing these requirements. Giving it to the network is not just synchronizing your generator in frequency, voltage and phase. This means hanging it with a variety of devices that not only ensure quality, but also safety. Example - There is a short circuit on the line. The power engineers send a brigade and it begins work. Moreover, the work begins by turning off all sources supplying electricity here and short-circuiting the line both to the left and to the right of the work site. What if you find yourself INSIDE this area and use your generator to kill the person working on the wires? What if the shorts kill your generator? Any generating enterprise must be certified by inspection services. If a simple connection requires a lot of money, then rest assured that you will not have enough money for certification. Further. Are you going to fight the monopoly of energy companies, which, in general, belong to the state? Without an energy supply agreement, you will not be able to supply it. But will you fulfill the quantity, time, terms, and responsibilities usually written down in contracts? Let's. And report the results.


    In this topic I have to repeat myself several times about the same thing. :)
    Now let me disappoint you. :) You are VERY behind the times, and I am in the thick of things on this topic. :)
    Almost 2 years ago, I studied all the technical and legislative issues and prepared my own initiative on this issue, with which I managed to reach the right people in the Government. As a result, preparations are now underway for the start of the implementation of a microgeneration program next year, according to which any owner of a solar power plant with a capacity of up to 15 kW will be able to officially sell surplus to the public network; network operators will be required to buy it back, and will not impose taxes on these operations.
    All security issues have already been thought through, so you don’t have to worry. Russian-made equipment that meets all requirements is mass-produced.
    I write more about this on my website.
    1. 0
      18 December 2017 17: 47
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      Let me disappoint you. You will never be able to connect to the grid with the ability to return energy to the grid. Installing a generator that provides you with energy, isolated and independent, is simple. But to generate energy and GIVE OUT means fulfilling a million energy quality requirements. Look at the standards governing these requirements. Giving it to the network is not just synchronizing your generator in frequency, voltage and phase. This means hanging it with a variety of devices that not only ensure quality, but also safety. Example - There is a short circuit on the line. The power engineers send a brigade and it begins work. Moreover, the work begins by turning off all sources supplying electricity here and short-circuiting the line both to the left and to the right of the work site. What if you find yourself INSIDE this area and use your generator to kill the person working on the wires? What if the shorts kill your generator? Any generating enterprise must be certified by inspection services. If a simple connection requires a lot of money, then rest assured that you will not have enough money for certification. Further. Are you going to fight the monopoly of energy companies, which, in general, belong to the state? Without an energy supply agreement, you will not be able to supply it. But will you fulfill the quantity, time, terms, and responsibilities usually written down in contracts? Let's. And report the results.


      In this topic I have to repeat myself several times about the same thing. :)
      Now let me disappoint you. :) You are VERY behind the times, and I am in the thick of things on this topic. :)
      Almost 2 years ago, I studied all the technical and legislative issues and prepared my own initiative on this issue, with which I managed to reach the right people in the Government. As a result, preparations are now underway for the start of the implementation of a microgeneration program next year, according to which any owner of a solar power plant with a capacity of up to 15 kW will be able to officially sell surplus to the public network; network operators will be required to buy it back, and will not impose taxes on these operations.
      All security issues have already been thought through, so you don’t have to worry. Russian-made equipment that meets all requirements is mass-produced.
      I write more about this on my website.

      Successes in the fight are not at the state level; there will not be the courage to resist such proposals. You will be screwed at the local level.
      To begin with, find GOST for power quality and compare the technical parameters of the requirements of this standard and those pieces of iron produced in Russia. If you find discrepancies, think about the fate of your proposal.
  81. 0
    18 December 2017 18: 44
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: nickd55
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    You incorrectly define the capabilities of the system.

    - Do you even understand that I have been living for six years in conditions of complete autonomy? :)
    And how can I “not imagine” something on this topic if it is vital for me?
    I am against trackers, if only because I know the strength of hurricane winds, which can easily disable the entire structure. In addition, trackers cost a lot of money and, in my opinion, it is simpler and more reliable for the cost of a tracker not purchased to simply add some more solar panels to the system.

    Did you not understand that I am writing about the difficulties of supplying energy to the state grid? Autonomously - for God’s sake, generate, use and live for a hundred years. Moreover, you can generate in different ways at the same time. How you will combine different generators or work in isolation is up to you.
    A generator with the ability to operate on a NETWORK costs an order of magnitude more than a generator without synchronizers. The system that allows you to work on the network becomes more complicated and becomes more expensive.
    Another very funny question - will you be able to provide supply power in dynamic mode, when state energy is a couple of volts less than the standard, and your system is of such high quality that it delivers exactly according to GOST? It seems that you are not an expert in energy, since you do not know the simplest questions.


    Sorry, but you missed a lot on the issue of the possibility of transferring energy from solar power plants to the network. :) I have already written here three times that the microgeneration program will start working next year.
    A hybrid inverter (which has the ability to supply excess to the network) costs about 15-18 thousand rubles more than a conventional inverter, and not by an “order of magnitude”. And it also ensures coordination and adjustment of the necessary parameters in dynamic mode.
    1. 0
      18 December 2017 21: 21
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      You incorrectly define the capabilities of the system.

      - Do you even understand that I have been living for six years in conditions of complete autonomy? :)
      And how can I “not imagine” something on this topic if it is vital for me?
      I am against trackers, if only because I know the strength of hurricane winds, which can easily disable the entire structure. In addition, trackers cost a lot of money and, in my opinion, it is simpler and more reliable for the cost of a tracker not purchased to simply add some more solar panels to the system.

      Did you not understand that I am writing about the difficulties of supplying energy to the state grid? Autonomously - for God’s sake, generate, use and live for a hundred years. Moreover, you can generate in different ways at the same time. How you will combine different generators or work in isolation is up to you.
      A generator with the ability to operate on a NETWORK costs an order of magnitude more than a generator without synchronizers. The system that allows you to work on the network becomes more complicated and becomes more expensive.
      Another very funny question - will you be able to provide supply power in dynamic mode, when state energy is a couple of volts less than the standard, and your system is of such high quality that it delivers exactly according to GOST? It seems that you are not an expert in energy, since you do not know the simplest questions.


      Sorry, but you missed a lot on the issue of the possibility of transferring energy from solar power plants to the network. :) I have already written here three times that the microgeneration program will start working next year.
      A hybrid inverter (which has the ability to supply excess to the network) costs about 15-18 thousand rubles more than a conventional inverter, and not by an “order of magnitude”. And it also ensures coordination and adjustment of the necessary parameters in dynamic mode.


      Hybrid inverters/Hybrid solar inverter SILA V 3000P 16 of 34


      Hybrid solar inverter SILA V 3000P

      Price 21 RUR

      When you show a double-directed arrow FROM THE NETWORK AND TO THE NETWORK on the description of the inverter, then you can talk about returning energy to the network.
      Perhaps you have a different inverter, then provide the name. But any inverter that returns to the network and operates on the network absolutely must have a SLAVE operating mode. Then, according to the parameters received from the network, it will repeat all actions in slave mode. Strictly synchronized. But this regime is extremely complicated and expensive. In this mode, the inverter can only deliver 70% of its rated power.
  82. 0
    18 December 2017 18: 49
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Then how to understand yours:

    - What do you not understand about these words of mine? As I wrote, this is how it should be understood. In my opinion, I am writing without any options for a different interpretation.
  83. 0
    21 December 2017 10: 10
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Successes in the fight are not at the state level; there will not be the courage to resist such proposals. You will be screwed at the local level. To begin with, find GOST for power quality and compare the technical parameters of the requirements of this standard and those pieces of iron produced in Russia. If you find discrepancies, think about the fate of your proposal.

    - I started this topic 2 years ago with a bummer at the local level. :) When it became clear that you couldn’t cook porridge here, I went to the federal level.
    For reference, Russian-made inverters from the Microart company provide the required level of quality for all parameters. If desired, the user can set these parameters even much better than according to GOST.
    Please study the materiel and think about your words.
    1. +1
      21 December 2017 11: 06
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      Successes in the fight are not at the state level; there will not be the courage to resist such proposals. You will be screwed at the local level. To begin with, find GOST for power quality and compare the technical parameters of the requirements of this standard and those pieces of iron produced in Russia. If you find discrepancies, think about the fate of your proposal.

      - I started this topic 2 years ago with a bummer at the local level. :) When it became clear that you couldn’t cook porridge here, I went to the federal level.
      For reference, Russian-made inverters from the Microart company provide the required level of quality for all parameters. If desired, the user can set these parameters even much better than according to GOST.
      Please study the materiel and think about your words.

      Your words express feelings, but not technical parameters. I asked for the name of the inverters that provide energy return to the network. You don't give. Either you forgot, or don’t have information, or don’t want to.
      It doesn't matter. No, no. From my experience working with electricity, I know that systems synchronized from a leading generator or from the network are expensive. Much more expensive. And you will be cut off at the local level not because idiots work there. But because you will not be able to meet all the demands (completely justified) of energy workers.
      Making very significant expenses by organizing return energy with capacities comparable to local generating ones is one thing. But going to similar costs with a generation of tens of kilowatts is pure madness.
  84. 0
    21 December 2017 10: 33
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    When you show a double-directed arrow FROM THE NETWORK AND TO THE NETWORK on the description of the inverter, then you can talk about returning energy to the network. Perhaps you have a different inverter, then provide the name. But any inverter that returns to the network and operates on the network absolutely must have a SLAVE operating mode. Then, according to the parameters received from the network, it will repeat all actions in slave mode. Strictly synchronized. But this regime is extremely complicated and expensive. In this mode, the inverter can only deliver 70% of its rated power.

    - You are now telling me everything that I already know. :) Any hybrid inverter produced by Microart can do all this. And the latest modification (Dominator) can also be remotely controlled (and something else). Please study the hardware:
    http://invertor.ru/pricelist.html
    Click on any hybrid or Dominator model and read a short description. You can study the possibilities in more detail by downloading the user manual from the link in the brief description or in this section:
    http://invertor.ru/teh.html
    By default, in the factory settings, the function of distributing surplus to the network is disabled, but with a slight movement of the hand (when needed) “the trousers turn...” :)
    1. 0
      21 December 2017 13: 55
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      When you show a double-directed arrow FROM THE NETWORK AND TO THE NETWORK on the description of the inverter, then you can talk about returning energy to the network. Perhaps you have a different inverter, then provide the name. But any inverter that returns to the network and operates on the network absolutely must have a SLAVE operating mode. Then, according to the parameters received from the network, it will repeat all actions in slave mode. Strictly synchronized. But this regime is extremely complicated and expensive. In this mode, the inverter can only deliver 70% of its rated power.

      - You are now telling me everything that I already know. :) Any hybrid inverter produced by Microart can do all this. And the latest modification (Dominator) can also be remotely controlled (and something else). Please study the hardware:
      http://invertor.ru/pricelist.html
      Click on any hybrid or Dominator model and read a short description. You can study the possibilities in more detail by downloading the user manual from the link in the brief description or in this section:
      http://invertor.ru/teh.html
      By default, in the factory settings, the function of distributing surplus to the network is disabled, but with a slight movement of the hand (when needed) “the trousers turn...” :)

      Apparently you haven't studied the material well yourself. It’s easy to talk about green energy on your couch. Without thinking about details and price.
      The simplest estimate is the power needed only for yourself, generating with solar panels - this requires a panel power of 10-15 kilowatts. In order to have at least a kilowatt generated in the evening in the twilight of winter. For recharging the battery and working on the computer. During the day, during the short time of the solstice, collect energy into the battery. In three to four hours. With afterburner for charging, which greatly reduces the resource. You need to forget about heating and refrigerator. Since this requires a power of at least 15-20 kilowatts. .Further. Inverter. Next - Battery. Next is a tower and a system for tracking the position of the Sun. At least a million per set. At an electricity price of 2,29 rubles per kilowatt-hour (my tariff today), the payback will take place in 500 thousand hours.
      1. 0
        21 December 2017 14: 40
        Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
        Apparently you haven't studied the material well yourself. It’s easy to talk about green energy on your couch. Without thinking about details and price.

        Further. You write about the extremely high cost of connecting networks to your home. And your costs are less than the costs of poles and wires. But then the question is fair - how then are you going to return energy to the network, without these poles and wires?
  85. 0
    21 December 2017 16: 34
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: nickd55
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    When you show a double-directed arrow FROM THE NETWORK AND TO THE NETWORK on the description of the inverter, then you can talk about returning energy to the network. Perhaps you have a different inverter, then provide the name. But any inverter that returns to the network and operates on the network absolutely must have a SLAVE operating mode. Then, according to the parameters received from the network, it will repeat all actions in slave mode. Strictly synchronized. But this regime is extremely complicated and expensive. In this mode, the inverter can only deliver 70% of its rated power.

    - You are now telling me everything that I already know. :) Any hybrid inverter produced by Microart can do all this. And the latest modification (Dominator) can also be remotely controlled (and something else). Please study the hardware:
    http://invertor.ru/pricelist.html
    Click on any hybrid or Dominator model and read a short description. You can study the possibilities in more detail by downloading the user manual from the link in the brief description or in this section:
    http://invertor.ru/teh.html
    By default, in the factory settings, the function of distributing surplus to the network is disabled, but with a slight movement of the hand (when needed) “the trousers turn...” :)

    Apparently you haven't studied the material well yourself. It’s easy to talk about green energy on your couch. Without thinking about details and price.
    The simplest estimate is the power needed only for yourself, generating with solar panels - this requires a panel power of 10-15 kilowatts. In order to have at least a kilowatt generated in the evening in the twilight of winter. For recharging the battery and working on the computer. During the day, during the short time of the solstice, collect energy into the battery. In three to four hours. With afterburner for charging, which greatly reduces the resource. You need to forget about heating and refrigerator. Since this requires a power of at least 15-20 kilowatts. .Further. Inverter. Next - Battery. Next is a tower and a system for tracking the position of the Sun. At least a million per set. At an electricity price of 2,29 rubles per kilowatt-hour (my tariff today), the payback will take place in 500 thousand hours.

    - Sorry, but you seem to be completely off topic. :)
    If you haven’t noticed this yet, then I’ll have to repeat it personally:
    1. I have been living in my house for the SIXTH YEAR in conditions of FULL autonomy without the use of a gas generator. Did you even understand this? :) My sofa is completely autonomous. :) How many times do I need to write about this here?
    My house is quite warm, light and has completely standard household appliances.
    It will be extremely difficult for you to find such an example. And literally, in my own skin, I apologize, I know all the features of using renewable energy sources much better than many. Therefore, you shouldn’t lecture me “sitting on the couch.”
    2. The power of solar panels can be several times less and in general the parameters of the system are determined based on many factors. How much and what it costs for me myself - I have already published here many times, I will not repeat it.
    3. I have already expressed my opinion on trackers here, I think their use in a private home is unreasonable.
    4. The overwhelming majority of consumers do not need to solve AUTONOMOUS problems (and I already wrote about this here!), which also reduces the technical requirements for the system in terms of power.
    In a hybrid system, there may be no batteries at all, or there will be only the bare minimum.
    5. In the vast majority of cases, a hybrid solar system with panels with a capacity of up to 3-4 kW and a cost of 300 to 400 thousand rubles including installation will be sufficient for a private home. Next year, the microgeneration system will increase the attractiveness of such solutions, since it will allow one Watt of energy not to be wasted, and especially advanced users in the southern regions of the country will be able to build houses for themselves with zero annual consumption from the network (including heating and hot water using a heat pump).
    I have already given the tariffs for Kuban here. I also wrote about the prospect of introducing “social norms”.
    And in general, if you deigned to read at least what has already been written here (not to mention the contents of my site), then you would not waste so much of your time and would not take it away from me in vain.

    And lastly, I gave you direct links to the website of the equipment manufacturer, from where you can get comprehensive technical information; “putting a teaspoon in the mouth” of an adult in the form of an excerpt from the description of the equipment is, I think, wrong.
    1. 0
      21 December 2017 19: 27
      Quote: nickd55
      5. In the vast majority of cases, a hybrid solar system with panels with a capacity of up to 3-4 kW will be sufficient for a private home

      you are in such a blizzard, it’s amazing, water pump 1 kW minimum boiler 1 kW kettle 1,5 microwave 1,1
      there is no refrigerator lighting or anything at all
      per apartment they install a minimum 25 ampere circuit breaker at the entrance MINIMUM according to the standards 50
      self-taught amateur, don’t say that you have comfort and order

      Let's assume that the apartment has:

      Refrigerator (400 W).
      Hob (7000 W)
      Microwave oven (1800 W).
      TV (200 W).
      Washing machine (700 W).
      Lighting fixtures (500 W).
      Adding up the power of all the listed devices, we get 10600W. The standard voltage in household networks is 220V. We calculate the load current using the formula I=P/U, 10600/220=48,18A. Based on the ratings of commercially available circuit breakers, we can say that to protect such a network you will need a 50A circuit breaker.
      https://yaelectrik.ru/jelektroshhitok/zamena-prob
      ok-na-avtomati
      1. 0
        21 December 2017 21: 05
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Quote: nickd55
        5. In the vast majority of cases, a hybrid solar system with panels with a capacity of up to 3-4 kW will be sufficient for a private home

        you are in such a blizzard, it’s amazing, water pump 1 kW minimum boiler 1 kW kettle 1,5 microwave 1,1
        there is no refrigerator lighting or anything at all
        per apartment they install a minimum 25 ampere circuit breaker at the entrance MINIMUM according to the standards 50
        self-taught amateur, don’t say that you have comfort and order

        Let's assume that the apartment has:

        Refrigerator (400 W).
        Hob (7000 W)
        Microwave oven (1800 W).
        TV (200 W).
        Washing machine (700 W).
        Lighting fixtures (500 W).
        Adding up the power of all the listed devices, we get 10600W. The standard voltage in household networks is 220V. We calculate the load current using the formula I=P/U, 10600/220=48,18A. Based on the ratings of commercially available circuit breakers, we can say that to protect such a network you will need a 50A circuit breaker.
        https://yaelectrik.ru/jelektroshhitok/zamena-prob
        ok-na-avtomati

        You are wrong in your calculations. A 4 kW solar battery is enough. But an inverter with such power will greatly fluctuate the voltage when starting the compressor of a refrigerator, washing machine, pump, etc. A much higher peak power is needed, for an apartment at least 10, and preferably 15 kW. Then the voltage drops will be within reasonable and acceptable limits. Drawdowns higher than those allowed for the inverter will lead to its normal shutdowns, within the limits of its passport. Normal for him, but for a person.....
  86. 0
    21 December 2017 16: 39
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Apparently you haven't studied the material well yourself. It’s easy to talk about green energy on your couch. Without thinking about details and price.

    Further. You write about the extremely high cost of connecting networks to your home. And your costs are less than the costs of poles and wires. But then the question is fair - how then are you going to return energy to the network, without these poles and wires?

    - You won’t believe it - I already wrote about this here. :)))
    Over the past years, a miracle happened: neighbors and pillars appeared around. But as a matter of principle, I will not connect to the grid now until the microgeneration program starts working. And this will happen next year, and I plan to convert my system into a hybrid one. Finally, read at least everything that I have ALREADY written above. :))
    1. 0
      21 December 2017 17: 02
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      Apparently you haven't studied the material well yourself. It’s easy to talk about green energy on your couch. Without thinking about details and price.

      Further. You write about the extremely high cost of connecting networks to your home. And your costs are less than the costs of poles and wires. But then the question is fair - how then are you going to return energy to the network, without these poles and wires?

      - You won’t believe it - I already wrote about this here. :)))
      Over the past years, a miracle happened: neighbors and pillars appeared around. But as a matter of principle, I will not connect to the grid now until the microgeneration program starts working. And this will happen next year, and I plan to convert my system into a hybrid one. Finally, read at least everything that I have ALREADY written above. :))




      You are inattentive.

      I am an ardent supporter of an AUTONOMOUS system when the cost of wiring and connection exceeds all reasonable limits. And I’m breaking spears on a completely different front. On RETURN. You simply do not understand the needs and requirements of local energy workers. (High offices will never tell you not to move around under your feet). Remember the Armenian radio with the question: is it possible to sit on a hedgehog with your bare butt? It answered, “You can if you sit on it with someone else’s bare ass.” That is why ....
      You will be interested in a local only when you gather a gang of like-minded people and present them with power, organized at your own expense, and the size of a good local thermal power plant. And not scattered in hundreds, when he needs to solve the same issue hundreds of times, but collectively organized.....
      And this is where you cut yourself short.
  87. 0
    21 December 2017 20: 23
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    5. In the vast majority of cases, a hybrid solar system with panels with a capacity of up to 3-4 kW will be sufficient for a private home

    you are in such a blizzard, it’s amazing, water pump 1 kW minimum boiler 1 kW kettle 1,5 microwave 1,1
    there is no refrigerator lighting or anything at all
    per apartment they install a minimum 25 ampere circuit breaker at the entrance MINIMUM according to the standards 50
    self-taught amateur, don’t say that you have comfort and order

    Let's assume that the apartment has:

    Refrigerator (400 W).
    Hob (7000 W)
    Microwave oven (1800 W).
    TV (200 W).
    Washing machine (700 W).
    Lighting fixtures (500 W).
    Adding up the power of all the listed devices, we get 10600W. The standard voltage in household networks is 220V. We calculate the load current using the formula I=P/U, 10600/220=48,18A. Based on the ratings of commercially available circuit breakers, we can say that to protect such a network you will need a 50A circuit breaker.
    https://yaelectrik.ru/jelektroshhitok/zamena-prob
    ok-na-avtomati

    - “not a balabol” is again in my repertoire... :)
    Write to him about the same thing at least 5 times, he simply CANNOT understand that:
    1. We are talking about a HYBRID system in which there is no need to always (24 hours a day and 365 days a year) compensate for 100% of consumption. :)
    2. In most private houses (this, by the way, is NOT an apartment) there are NO electric stoves at all, and in general it is not at all necessary to try to cover ALL the maximum power consumption with the power of the inverter. :)
    Moreover, in many cases, it is simply not reasonable or rational. :) Very often it makes sense to immediately divide consumers into 2 groups (reserved and non-reserved). The first ones will always be provided with energy, and the second ones will not work in the network during an emergency.
    3. Only a complete person will first spend a lot of money on the solar system, and only then try to think with his head. I always prefer and recommend conducting an “audit” of energy consumption and rationalizing the latter, then making the necessary calculations and thinking WITH YOUR HEAD, and only then designing the most rational system, which in this particular place and under certain conditions will have maximum efficiency and economic feasibility.
    4. In the conditions of the South of the country, for example, 4 kW of solar panels are capable of producing about 5000 kWh of electricity per year, which is quite enough for most private homes. :) I will repeat this also for about the fourth time. :)

    Amuse me some more... :)
  88. 0
    21 December 2017 20: 32
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    I am an ardent supporter of an AUTONOMOUS system when the cost of wiring and connection exceeds all reasonable limits. And I’m breaking spears on a completely different front. On RETURN. You simply do not understand the needs and requirements of local energy workers. (High offices will never tell you not to move around under your feet). Remember the Armenian radio with the question: is it possible to sit on a hedgehog with your bare butt? It answered, “You can if you sit on it with someone else’s bare ass.” That is why.... You will interest a local only when you gather a gang of like-minded people and present them with power, organized at your own expense, and the size of a good local thermal power plant. And not scattered in hundreds, when he needs to solve the same issue hundreds of times, but collectively organized..... And this is where you will cut yourself short.

    - You know, I am deeply indifferent to the needs and requirements of local energy workers.
    “High offices will never tell you not to move around under your feet” - Are you serious? :)
    I am not going to interest local energy workers in anything and I don’t see any need for this, they will simply be OBLIGATED to follow federal legislation, that’s all. :)
    We'll see in a year who's out there and what they'll cut it on. :)
    1. 0
      21 December 2017 22: 04
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      I am an ardent supporter of an AUTONOMOUS system when the cost of wiring and connection exceeds all reasonable limits. And I’m breaking spears on a completely different front. On RETURN. You simply do not understand the needs and requirements of local energy workers. (High offices will never tell you not to move around under your feet). Remember the Armenian radio with the question: is it possible to sit on a hedgehog with your bare butt? It answered, “You can if you sit on it with someone else’s bare ass.” That is why.... You will interest a local only when you gather a gang of like-minded people and present them with power, organized at your own expense, and the size of a good local thermal power plant. And not scattered in hundreds, when he needs to solve the same issue hundreds of times, but collectively organized..... And this is where you will cut yourself short.

      - You know, I am deeply indifferent to the needs and requirements of local energy workers.
      “High offices will never tell you not to move around under your feet” - Are you serious? :)
      I am not going to interest local energy workers in anything and I don’t see any need for this, they will simply be OBLIGATED to follow federal legislation, that’s all. :)
      We'll see in a year who's out there and what they'll cut it on. :)

      You are deeply mistaken. Permission is given by them. And it depends on them whether you succeed or not. Not from the President, and not from the Moscow offices. Try to prove to THEM that they are nothing of themselves. Simple connection will not be allowed. Ordinary. And they’ll start with something simple - install a reversible counter. Included in the Register of Measuring Instruments. Russia.
      Did you read it in the frame? This is, after all, a document taken from your link. And you didn’t read, apparently. This is the first step. And they have hundreds of them. And all because they haven’t needed you for a hundred years. With my pennies.
  89. +1
    22 December 2017 11: 27
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    You are deeply mistaken. Permission is given by them. And it depends on them whether you succeed or not. Not from the President, and not from the Moscow offices. Try to prove to THEM that they are nothing of themselves. Simple connection will not be allowed. Ordinary. And they’ll start with something simple - install a reversible counter. Included in the Register of Measuring Instruments. Russia. Did you read it in the frame? This is, after all, a document taken from your link. And you didn’t read, apparently. This is the first step. And they have hundreds of them. And all because they haven’t needed you for a hundred years. With my pennies.

    --Have you ever heard that federal legislation prevails over local legislation? :)
    I repeat once again - local power engineers will be OBLIGATED to comply with federal legislation.
    This is the essence of innovation. Let them try to come up with some gag that goes against the feds.
    Please study the materiel more deeply. :) At least two Government Decrees on the topic of microgeneration.
    I repeat - you just don’t know. It is bidirectional counters that are planned for use.
    And I directly wrote about this in my initiative almost 2 years ago, and even indicated there two mass-produced models of such meters by domestic manufacturers. :)
    1. +1
      22 December 2017 12: 19
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      You are deeply mistaken. Permission is given by them. And it depends on them whether you succeed or not. Not from the President, and not from the Moscow offices. Try to prove to THEM that they are nothing of themselves. Simple connection will not be allowed. Ordinary. And they’ll start with something simple - install a reversible counter. Included in the Register of Measuring Instruments. Russia. Did you read it in the frame? This is, after all, a document taken from your link. And you didn’t read, apparently. This is the first step. And they have hundreds of them. And all because they haven’t needed you for a hundred years. With my pennies.

      --Have you ever heard that federal legislation prevails over local legislation? :)
      I repeat once again - local power engineers will be OBLIGATED to comply with federal legislation.
      This is the essence of innovation. Let them try to come up with some gag that goes against the feds.
      Please study the materiel more deeply. :) At least two Government Decrees on the topic of microgeneration.
      I repeat - you just don’t know. It is bidirectional counters that are planned for use.
      And I directly wrote about this in my initiative almost 2 years ago, and even indicated there two mass-produced models of such meters by domestic manufacturers. :)

      But if you don’t understand, you will be obliged to fulfill all the technical requirements, and not the energy sector of your region.
      Do not think that only the official is obliged to fulfill the Law. Required to do EVERYTHING. And, first of all, you. As an initiator. No one has a nanny. You are boring me with your claims; you don’t notice that this is on the verge of schizophrenia.
    2. 0
      22 December 2017 13: 33
      Quote: nickd55
      --Have you ever heard that federal legislation prevails over local legislation? :)
      I repeat once again - local power engineers will be OBLIGATED to comply with federal legislation.

      so they will do it when you fulfill THOSE CONDITIONS laughing
      1. 0
        22 December 2017 13: 49
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        Quote: nickd55
        --Have you ever heard that federal legislation prevails over local legislation? :)
        I repeat once again - local power engineers will be OBLIGATED to comply with federal legislation.

        so they will do it when you fulfill THOSE CONDITIONS laughing

        A certain friend who erected a tower for solar panels near his house, installed an inverter and batteries from a car, thinks that he has comprehended all the intricacies of energy. He does not suspect that he will have to pay for the rework of a huge mnemonic board in the regional administration, on which ALL energy sources, ALL routes and ALL switching elements are marked, with the ability to control ALL elements remotely from this mnemonic board. He does not suspect that he will have to install a remote control device at the output of his generator, with which he can turn it on and off from the network, as a source of energy in emergency situations or other situations. From this very mnemonic board in the regional administration. And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector. He hasn't even entered the phase of understanding what it is.
        1. 0
          22 December 2017 14: 37
          awareness, the comrade’s task is to sell Pinocchio equipment they don’t need, he makes money on this
        2. 0
          22 December 2017 14: 38
          Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
          And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector.

          They have been trying to prove to him for a week, if not two, that with today’s tariffs and the cost of autonomous power supply, this is all beneficial only if it is impossible to draw a payback line of 10-30 years and who needs it then
          1. 0
            22 December 2017 15: 58
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector.

            They have been trying to prove to him for a week, if not two, that with today’s tariffs and the cost of autonomous power supply, this is all beneficial only if it is impossible to draw a payback line of 10-30 years and who needs it then

            The main idea of ​​ANY network, ANY community is INTERACTION. Everyone with everyone. He believes that the idea of ​​small-scale amateur activities will enrich society. But anarchy never produced positive results. How “green energy” is just a PR stunt, at least at the level of today’s interaction between members of society, which is humanity as a whole. Cyclic generations (only during the day, or only when the wind blows, or only when the tide is in) create a lot of problems. Nuclear, thermal, and hydropower plants cannot be switched off when there is a “green” signal. And they work all the same, but with excess energy production, burning, heating and poisoning.... Only universal all-terrestrial energy networks cut this knot. The sun always shines on the Earth. There is always a wind blowing, there is always a tide when you look at the Earth as a whole. But how to be able to come to an agreement is the main thing. "Green" energy in your yard will only work in isolation. No network will accept this mess. He doesn't understand it.
          2. 0
            22 December 2017 16: 14
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
            And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector.

            They have been trying to prove to him for a week, if not two, that with today’s tariffs and the cost of autonomous power supply, this is all beneficial only if it is impossible to draw a payback line of 10-30 years and who needs it then

            I followed the links. An inverter with the ability to generate into the network is a computer costing a hundred thousand rubles. There are, however, for 200 thousand. Next are solar panels. Next is the solar tracking system. Next are batteries. Then there are all sorts of network and other bells and whistles. Next is the installation of this facility. You can hardly fit into a million. I'm not talking about the difficulties of licensing this business. This, I think, will take almost the same amount. A license cannot be obtained without undergoing special training, obtaining a security clearance group, or equipment certification. Preparation of contract. I doubt that such wooden comrades understand law. Help from consultants and lawyers. I just had fun looking at this naive chick - where is he going? Does he think he will set the selling price? If I pay 2,3 rubles per kilowatt-hour, then at this, everyday price, will it go crazy? And even more so - at the prices of industrial enterprises! He will receive a price at the level of the wholesale price in the region. Fifty dollars, and no more. It would be nice if he read this message. Maybe it will turn on the brain.
            1. 0
              22 December 2017 16: 45
              Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
              Maybe it will turn on the brain.

              unlikely
  90. 0
    22 December 2017 19: 37
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    But if you don’t understand, you will be obliged to fulfill all the technical requirements, and not the energy sector of your region.

    - naturally (and I know and understand this), I will be obliged to fulfill all the specifications stipulated by FEDERAL Legislation, but at the same time, the entire procedure is planned to be scheduled in such a way that local power engineers do not have the opportunity to take any liberties of their own. A simplified connection procedure is expected, and for those who have already been connected to the network, a general notification procedure.
    Please read:
    http://government.ru/orders/selection/401/26467/
    http://government.ru/news/28559/
    http://static.government.ru/media/files/D7T1wAHJ0
    E8vEWst5MYzr5DOnhHFA3To.pdf
  91. 0
    22 December 2017 19: 40
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    You are boring me with your claims; you don’t notice that this is on the verge of schizophrenia.

    - I don’t care deeply about your opinion, and I won’t stoop to your level here and get personal, sorry. :)
  92. 0
    22 December 2017 19: 41
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: nickd55
    --Have you ever heard that federal legislation prevails over local legislation? :)
    I repeat once again - local power engineers will be OBLIGATED to comply with federal legislation.

    so they will do it when you fulfill THOSE CONDITIONS laughing

    - You opened my eyes! :) I had no idea...
  93. 0
    22 December 2017 19: 44
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    A certain friend who erected a tower for solar panels near his house, installed an inverter and batteries from a car, thinks that he has comprehended all the intricacies of energy.

    - in my opinion, it is you, without bothering to familiarize yourself with the primary sources on the topic of microgeneration, who are sucking various nonsense out of your own finger and then attributing it to me. :)
  94. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 04
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    He does not suspect that he will have to pay for the rework of a huge mnemonic board in the regional administration, on which ALL energy sources, ALL routes and ALL switching elements are marked, with the ability to control ALL elements remotely from this mnemonic board. He does not suspect that he will have to install a remote control device at the output of his generator, with which he can turn it on and off from the network, as a source of energy in emergency situations or other situations. From this very mnemonic board in the regional administration. And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector. He hasn't even entered the phase of understanding what it is.

    - I won’t have to pay for the problems of local energy workers, this is your personal nonsense. Everything that I will be required to do is directly described in the existing Government documents, please learn the materiel. :) Don’t you think that you are puffing out your cheeks and trying to talk intelligently even about something that you simply don’t even want to read the documents about? :)
    - You don’t even know that the Dominator type inverter ALREADY has the ability to remotely control, and the hybrid version can easily be equipped with it. :)
    - You don’t even know that there will be no need to disconnect my inverter remotely from the networks, since it will AUTOMATICALLY be physically disconnected from the external network in the event of an accident in the networks,
    - You don’t even know that almost 2 years ago, in my proposals to the Government on this topic, I personally already proposed to include in the equipment (just in case) additional protection in the form of a voltage control relay (I even indicated a specific model), which IN ADDITION to the standard means of the inverter, it will physically open the external network,
    - You don’t even know that if you use a network inverter, none of this is required in principle, since this type of inverter automatically turns off completely simultaneously with an emergency shutdown of the network. :))
    - You have not even entered the phase of understanding what actually happened with the release of Dvorkovich’s Resolution of February 17.02.2017, XNUMX and how the responsibilities of the consumer and networks will be delineated. :))

    Here's some more information for you to educate yourself:
    http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1510912284
    http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1513073223
    :)
    You still don’t understand which way the wind is blowing. :)
    1. 0
      22 December 2017 20: 44
      Quote: nickd55
      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
      He does not suspect that he will have to pay for the rework of a huge mnemonic board in the regional administration, on which ALL energy sources, ALL routes and ALL switching elements are marked, with the ability to control ALL elements remotely from this mnemonic board. He does not suspect that he will have to install a remote control device at the output of his generator, with which he can turn it on and off from the network, as a source of energy in emergency situations or other situations. From this very mnemonic board in the regional administration. And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector. He hasn't even entered the phase of understanding what it is.

      - I won’t have to pay for the problems of local energy workers, this is your personal nonsense. Everything that I will be required to do is directly described in the existing Government documents, please learn the materiel. :) Don’t you think that you are puffing out your cheeks and trying to talk intelligently even about something that you simply don’t even want to read the documents about? :)
      - You don’t even know that the Dominator type inverter ALREADY has the ability to remotely control, and the hybrid version can easily be equipped with it. :)
      - You don’t even know that there will be no need to disconnect my inverter remotely from the networks, since it will AUTOMATICALLY be physically disconnected from the external network in the event of an accident in the networks,
      - You don’t even know that almost 2 years ago, in my proposals to the Government on this topic, I personally already proposed to include in the equipment (just in case) additional protection in the form of a voltage control relay (I even indicated a specific model), which IN ADDITION to the standard means of the inverter, it will physically open the external network,
      - You don’t even know that if you use a network inverter, none of this is required in principle, since this type of inverter automatically turns off completely simultaneously with an emergency shutdown of the network. :))
      - You have not even entered the phase of understanding what actually happened with the release of Dvorkovich’s Resolution of February 17.02.2017, XNUMX and how the responsibilities of the consumer and networks will be delineated. :))

      Here's some more information for you to educate yourself:
      http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1510912284
      http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1513073223
      :)
      You still don’t understand which way the wind is blowing. :)

      AND WHERE DOES THESE TWO LINKS SAY THAT YOU CAN JOIN ENERGY GENERATION TOMORROW? It says that at the expense of consumers (indirectly, through an increase in tariffs, they will be replaced with meters that have the ability to remotely, including via network wires, transmit information about energy consumption, disconnect a consumer who has not paid for consumption, and also drive via the Internet tariffs, changing them in accordance with your interests. There is not a word about reversible meters and microgeneration. You have greatly confused something. Your preparation in the legal and technical aspects is visible.
    2. 0
      22 December 2017 21: 04
      Quote: nickd55
      You still don’t understand which way the wind is blowing. :)

      I'll continue. Replacing meters is not done to help crazy people go crazy. Not at all. This is a fight against defaulters. Moreover, at the expense of the consumer. It says that the meters will be replaced and in the future transferred to the ownership of energy companies. But there is no other way to pay for this work except from the pockets of ordinary consumers. And through the same electrical network, these smart devices will communicate digitally with that same energy company. They will change the tariff, and they will know what the costs are, and turn off the defaulter. All without leaving your offices.
      What are you up to, forgive me, Lord!

      Honor.

      Consumers are tired of green energy. They're asking the White House to stop subsidizing it.

      http://m.energosovet.ru/news.php?zag=1513072287
    3. The comment was deleted.
  95. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 05
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    awareness, the comrade’s task is to sell Pinocchio equipment they don’t need, he makes money on this

    - bullshit, sucked from your dirty finger. :)
    1. 0
      22 December 2017 21: 41
      How do you know how clean my fingers are?!
  96. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 09
    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    And when he calculates the costs and the possibility of receiving his three kopecks a month for the energy generated by his three-kilowatt inverter, he will understand how far he actually is from the energy sector.

    They have been trying to prove to him for a week, if not two, that with today’s tariffs and the cost of autonomous power supply, this is all beneficial only if it is impossible to draw a payback line of 10-30 years and who needs it then

    - Will you answer me about the payback period for your personal car and washing machine?
    :)
    I repeat - in the southern regions of our country this is economically justified, convenient and effective right now, and the cost of solar kWh in a balanced hybrid system can be significantly lower than from an outlet (sometimes by several times). :)
    1. 0
      22 December 2017 21: 48
      Quote: nickd55
      Will you answer me about the payback period for your personal car and washing machine?

      the generator's payback is considered elementary
      costs (all that you incurred to install the system)
      then you divide this cost by the cost of electricity at which you could buy it from a third-party consumer, you get the total amount of electricity that you could buy from a third-party supplier, divide by the average consumption, you get the payback time
      everything else is considered in the same way, just unlike you, I have calculated the payback of industrial equipment for my own company more than a dozen times
      Quote: nickd55
      I repeat - in the southern regions of our country this is economically justified, convenient and effective right now, and the cost of solar kWh in a balanced hybrid system can be significantly lower than from an outlet (sometimes by several times). :)

      once again for the illiterate
      give (without unnecessary figures) the total amount of costs and the average monthly volume of consumption and within 30 seconds we will understand whether it is economically profitable or not, I will repeat without unnecessary snot the total amount of costs for installing and purchasing the system
  97. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 12
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    The main idea of ​​ANY network, ANY community is INTERACTION. Everyone with everyone. He believes that the idea of ​​small-scale amateur activities will enrich society.

    - bullshit, it's simple - your very stupid gag, pulled out of thin air. :)
    I repeat - I am ready to answer in court for every word I say.
    Are you ready to prove these nonsense of yours in court? :)
    1. 0
      22 December 2017 21: 49
      Quote: nickd55
      I repeat - I am ready to answer in court for every word I say.
      Are you ready to prove these nonsense of yours in court? :)

      Why are you scaring everyone with a lawsuit, what does the court have to do with it, do you really think that someone will sue you?!!!
      1. The comment was deleted.
  98. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 13
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    But anarchy never produced positive results.

    - what kind of nonsense? :) Are you out of your mind at all? I suggest you prove all your accusations against me in court.
    Let's be mature, shall we? :)
  99. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 16
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Only universal all-terrestrial energy networks will cut this knot. The sun always shines on the Earth. There is always a wind blowing, there is always a tide when you look at the Earth as a whole. But how to be able to come to an agreement is the main thing.

    - please show me where and when exactly I spoke out against this? :)
  100. 0
    22 December 2017 20: 27
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    "Green" energy in your yard will only work in isolation. No network will accept this mess. He doesn't understand it.

    - You still don’t understand anything. :) Then - just sit still and watch the events of next year. :) You will see everything for yourself.
    For reference, before formulating my microgeneration initiative, I was advised on key technical issues by a highly qualified international energy specialist with 28 years of experience working with networks both in Russia and abroad (he now works for a large Australian company).
    In addition, representatives of various levels of networks, the Ministry of Energy, and the Federal Antimonopoly Service were present at the round table on this topic at the Government Analytical Center. And before that, an assessment of the possibility and feasibility of such decisions and all the associated risks and difficulties was ALREADY carried out. And the very adoption of the Preparation Program for the introduction of a microgeneration system indicates that, in the opinion of the Government, the advantages for the entire country clearly exceed the disadvantages discovered by someone.
    Is not it? :)
    Otherwise, how can you explain the fact of making these decisions? :) Well, at least think of something...