Military Review

"Ice Slaughter" as a tool of PR-impact on society

97
This material ends the cycle of articles about the “Ice Battle”. And those who liked the materials published in it, and those to whom they “stood across the throat”, can not fail to note that the materials were selected in an exhaustive way: chronicle texts for independent study, views on this event, based on the opinions of such well-known Russian historians like Kirpichnikov, Danilevsky, Kvyatkovsky, Zhukov, finally, how this event is viewed by modern English-speaking historians, and now it is time to look, and how it was reflected in the propaganda of past years.

Any action - if it is written about it, generates a corresponding reaction in society. Positive news is positive. Negative - negative. This is an axiom of advocacy with the population. And, by the way, it is for this - the prevalence of positive over the negative - journalists “do not like” PR people. After all, negative information is more accessible to journalists. She can say, she goes into their hands, and you need to look for the positive. And they pay both for the one and for the other in the same way, and since nobody wants to strain themselves ... journalists choose the first. But PR people, by definition, must avoid negativity, and they also give positive to journalists. It's a shame, of course, to journalists, but you can’t do anything.

As is known from the theory of James Grunig, there are four models of PR practices, and the first of them is propaganda and agitation. And it would be strange if such an event as the “Battle of the Ice” were not involved in the technologies of managing society. So information about him should be considered not only with historical point of view, but also from the point of view of PR-technologies, that is, how it was presented to this society. But this event was presented in such a way that as a result, the battle on Lake Peipsi in the eyes of most of our contemporaries became almost the “main battle of the Middle Ages,” largely due to skillful PR advancement. But it only became such in the 125th century. For our ancestors, who lived in the XIII century, it was, of course, a significant, but not an exceptional event. Let's at least count it ... according to the words. Thus, the Novgorod Chronicle devotes 1240 words to him, and the battle on the Neva (232) 1268 words, while the message of the Battle of Rakovors (780) has already been transmitted in XNUMX words, i.e. practically six times more is said about him than about the battle on Lake Peipsi. In addition to a larger volume, the Novgorod chronicler reports about his attitude to the Battle of Rakovors, saying that “the battle is terribly quick, as neither father nor father could see”. That is, the scale of this battle is compared with those that were earlier.

Well, the popularity of the “Battle of the Ice” is due to the skillful Soviet propaganda during the Great Patriotic War, during which the image of Alexander Nevsky, as the winner of the Teutonic Knights, was merged together with the victory over Nazi Germany. So any attempt on him is perceived by people who are far from history as an attempt on victory in the Great Patriotic War, and causes serious psychological discomfort. Moreover, the image of Prince Alexander was not very popular in the 20-30 years of the Soviet era and only with time began to be actively promoted.

However, first of all, the film was made. At first he had another story and another end, but after reading the script, Comrade Stalin wrote on it: “Such a good prince cannot die,” and ... the prince did not allow the prince to die!

"Ice Slaughter" as a tool of PR-impact on society

Nikolai Cherkasov as Prince Alexander Nevsky is one of his best roles (1938).

The film was released, began to be shown, but ... immediately after 23 August 1939, it was removed from the rental. Then we wanted to be friends with the Germans so much that they decided not to offend them with Soviet art!

But from the very first days of the war the film was returned to the screens, and along with the viewing they began to practice even short messages and comments to it, and after the show to conduct its discussion. If we look at the advertising posters, we immediately notice how they have changed since the beginning of the war. On the posters of 1938, we see Prince Alexander leading the troops into battle. The enemy is not shown! Epic image, but no more!


Poster of the film "Alexander Nevsky" 1938

On the posters of 41, the theme of the enemy is already presented quite concretely, and not abstractly, as before the war. Immediately, many publications appeared in newspapers, in magazines, on theater stages, performances went on, artists began to paint paintings, and printing houses printed postcards and brochures on this event. In 1941-45, at least 22 books about Prince Alexander and the Battle of the Ice were published as small-format brochures for soldiers. Numerous lecturers of the OC and the RK VKP (b) were actively involved in lecturing on military-patriotic topics. And of course, the Ice Battle was given the popularity of his 700 anniversary, which fell on the 1942 year, and ... the corresponding article on the front page of the newspaper Pravda!

The image of Prince Alexander Nevsky appeared on posters - and as an independent figure of the defender of the Russian land, and together with other great Russian generals of our history. Then no one wrote that Kutuzov was a freemason and made coffee to Catherine's favorite, that Suvorov fought against some Tartary, and everyone knew that they fought against the enemies of Russia, Russia, and in the end - the Soviet Union, and ... one look at such posters injected people with a certain amount of adrenaline into the blood. In this case, the enemies of Alexander Nevsky were exclusively the knights-Teutons. All other opponents of the prince, in particular, the Swedes, who kept neutrality, did not stand out on posters. “This is for specialists!” It is interesting that the armor of the knights on them almost never corresponded to the real armament of the knights of the middle of the XIII century, but referred to the XVI th, as a more “solid” and “impressive” type of armor. And it is not surprising that people remembered it, especially since it also simply flattered their vanity - “what kind of deluge!”


"Our land is glorified by the heroes of the heroes." Victor Govorkov. The pre-war poster of 1941. As you can see, the images of an ancient Russian warrior, similar to Ilya Muromets from the famous painting “Three Bogatyrs” and the modern Soviet tanker, are beaten very well. However, in general, they are static and do not encourage action!

The image of Alexander Nevsky was played up even in comic magazines, for example, such as "Front-line humor". In 1942, the following jokes in the form of mail telegrams were printed in it:
Berlin to Hitler.
I wish you, nemchin damned, the death of the ambulance.
I grieve that ... I can not personally put my hand to the German scruff.
A. Nevsky.

Germany, Gitlyaryak.
Remember, you bastard, how much I picked up the shaft of your ancestors on Lake Peipsi. On the occasion of the anniversary I can repeat.
Vasily Buslaev.

Funny is not it? And it really worked, and lifted the mood of people! Here only Busley's shaft with time began to be perceived as a historical fact! But on the other hand, all together, this consolidated the image of Alexander as a visible and impressive anti-German symbol, ideally suited for anti-fascist propaganda.

It should be noted that before the war, the attitude towards the military victories of the tsarist era was very ambiguous. So, in the book of V.E. Markevich "Manual gunshot weapon”, Published in 1937 year, the following Suvorov“ wonder heroes ”were written literally as follows (p. 157):“ Extremely hardy and unusually trained soldiers, who traveled thousands of kilometers on foot and worked in battles mostly with bayonets. They seldom served retirement and retirement, dying in battles, from illness, or from corporal punishment with sticks, which they were allowed to beat to death. The service was almost eternal: 25 years. These unfortunate people were recruited almost exclusively from the poor peasantry. Prosperous conscripts under the laws of that time could pay off from the service with money. General Suvorov gave such names as: slave-soldier - “miracle hero”, 15-kg knapsack - “wind”, disciplinary sticks - “sticks”, etc. ”However, Molotov’s speech (22 June 1941 of the year in which the war was he was named Patriotic), and Stalin (July 3 1941 of the year, in which his famous “brothers and sisters” sounded), at once sent the sound of Soviet propaganda into a different tone. Especially since they also touched upon the themes of the World War 1812 of the year and the struggle of young Soviet Russia against the German interventionists in the 1918 year. Therefore, Suvorov's soldiers stopped calling “slave-soldiers”.

Even more important for the canonization of Alexander Nevsky was the speech of Stalin 7 on November 1941 of the year. Then, on the 24 anniversary of the October Revolution, he said: “Let the courageous image of our great ancestors - Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov, Mikhail Kutuzov — inspire you in this war!” And besides the military leaders, Stalin also spoke about other great figures Russian culture: Pushkin, Tolstoy, Chekhov and Tchaikovsky.


“They beat, we beat and we will beat”. Vladimir Serov. The poster 1941 d. The following details draw upon themselves: the sword of the Russian warrior expanding towards the end (giving an image of epic significance to the image), the cow horns on the helmet of the German knight (showing his malignantness - “devilish horned” and at the same time doom to the death) German soldier. Yes, the Wehrmacht soldiers did not wear such emblems, but the enemy and its ideological identity were so clearly defined.

And immediately in the newspapers and magazines appeared articles whose authors turned to the history of the Fatherland, to the victory of Kutuzov over Napoleon, and historical battles: the Battle of the Ice, the Grunwald battle, the battles of the Seven Years War, as well as victories over the Germans in Ukraine, near Narva and Pskov in 1918 year, the fight against foreign invaders in 1918-20's. Now materials devoted to the propaganda of the fighting traditions of our ancestors in the Pravda newspaper began to occupy an average of 60%, in the Red Star - 57%, in Trud - 54%, that is, more than half of all publications aimed at promoting the ideas of patriotism among the peoples of the USSR.

Newspaper articles were supplemented with a massive publication of brochures of the corresponding series (for example, "Writers - Patriots of the Motherland", "Great Fighters for the Russian Land", etc.). "Children's Literature" and that published books for children on the history of weapons, for example, in 1942, a popular book was published about tanks O. Drozhzhina "Land Cruisers".

However, the speech of Stalin 7 November 1941 of the year acquired special significance for poster art. Posters in the USSR were a popular art form before that. Now they began to appear in the newspapers and on the walls of houses, in a word, everywhere, where they could meet their eyes. Moreover, the image of Alexander Nevsky took on the Soviet patriotic poster of the Great Patriotic War, if not dominant, then, in any case, a very prominent place, although images of Minin and Pozharsky, Dmitry Donskoy, and, of course, the commanders of Suvorov and Kutuzov were used.


Here it is, the very article in the newspaper Pravda, devoted to the 700 anniversary of the Battle of Lake Peipsi, and determined, so to speak, the trend of Soviet historical science in this matter. But it is interesting that even in it there is no talk about drowning knights in the lake. Even Stalinist propagandists understood that what was not in the annals should not be written in Pravda.

But on the whole, the process of “building bridges” between pre-revolutionary Russia and the Soviet Union has been going on since the beginning of the 30s, when the USSR decided to recognize itself as the historical heir of the Russian Empire. Many revolutionary phrases and slogans, including the world revolution itself in the medium term, were then also refused and decided to "build socialism in a single country." But the authorities needed a legitimizing basis for themselves. And this basis was supposed to be “Soviet patriotism”, and for its construction the ideologists took imperial patriotism as a model, which was easily explained. It was not only impossible, but also unprofitable, to “throw Pushkin away from the steamer of modernity,” as was suggested at the outset, and to start building his proletarian culture from scratch. Therefore, since 1931, history has again been taught in schools as a separate discipline. In 1934, the faculties of history were reestablished at Moscow and Leningrad universities, and then opened in other institutions of higher education. But the history of the Soviet government was required not for the sake of history itself, it needed a patriotic history filled with names, facts and events that would work for a new ideology and enhance the people's love for their country and for its political leadership. The mistakes of the past were also taken into account, when in the pre-revolutionary times the masses were basically not covered by such work, with all its tragic consequences for the state.


But an excerpt from the same article, which did not fit entirely into the top photo. Here we are talking about knights in forged armor, and this also became a trend, as if there were no books by Beheim and Le Duke and even banal school textbooks with copies from historical miniatures ... Why is it so clear if we remember what it was during this time. Stalin in print declared that the Germans were superior to us in tanks, and only because of this their infantry marched forward, and so we would have broken them long ago. Therefore, the gravity of the weaponry and the superiority of the enemy in it were transferred to the past! And from here comes the conclusion: they were beaten, chained from head to toe then, we will beat them even now, in spite of all their tanks! So it should have been written in 1942, and so it was written! But today is another time, another level of knowledge and knotted knights is another move. Lat because then just was not. Even before the battle of Visby (where the massive appearance of plate armor was recorded) was still more than a hundred years old!


The name of the legendary prince in the war years called the tanks, both our Soviet and Lend-Lease tanks.


Tank "Churchill" №61 "Alexander Nevsky." Photos of the war years.


Tank "Churchill" №61 "Alexander Nevsky." Modern design.


Airplanes wore his name. For example, here is this "Erkobra".

Therefore, the old imperial doctrine in the field of history was subjected to a corresponding revision. For example, Alexander Nevsky from one of the Orthodox saints, but also the patron of the royal family, which he was considered in Russia in the XIX century, turned into a military and, of course, political ... leader who is closely connected with the people, learns from him (scene in the movie with the story of the fox!), and at the same time stands over his subjects. The similarity of such a figure with the image of Stalin is quite obvious. And the society of Russia of the XIII century began to draw also very, very recognizable for those years. Naturally, there were numerous traitors and secret and obvious "enemies of the people", and the threat from the German enemies hung over the country all the time. Therefore, the only way out of such a situation was, firstly, a tough centralized power, and secondly, a fierce struggle against all internal enemies and collective subordination to the great leader. And all this was based on the mentality of paternalism peculiar to Russian society, so everything was connected in a very logical way. As a result, in the minds of a significant part of society, Alexander Nevsky is associated precisely with the “Ice Battle”. But those who have read a little more see him as an authoritarian ruler who, in the interests of the people, was forced to go for tough, and often even cruel measures. But "the father of the people", of course, everything is possible, because he is the "father" and leader!


The newspaper "Moscow Bolshevik" from 05.04.1942. Pay attention to the stark contrast of the text of the article placed in it with the editorial material in the newspaper "Pravda". A person writes a clear fiction, not based on anything, just takes the numbers from the ceiling, but ... no one pulls him. Cause? “Truth” “cannot be mistaken”, but to all other newspapers it is possible, and ... in this way, gradually, one information in the public mind was replaced by another, albeit “fabulous”, but more “useful” for the government and for the people. Especially interesting is written about the double-armor armor ...

As a conclusion, it should be said that, as a PR instrument, the image of Alexander Nevsky worked during the war years for all 100%, that is, the work of its creators corresponded to the tasks of time, the poorly educated people of that time, and was done conscientiously. But then ... then it was necessary to reduce the "image of the hero" (which the theory of mass communications also says!) On the basis of reference to scientific data, and at the level of state policy. What for? And then, in order not to jeopardize the entire national history as a whole and not to produce later those who would eventually speculate on all these and other similar exaggerations, rejecting our entire history as reliable. If this were done, the hyperbolized image of Alexander Nevsky would remain in people's memory, as one of the symbols of World War II, and a monument to the art of the Soviet era, and no one would break copies of it, for example, here at HE. “So it was!” So ​​what?

But then, according to his time, it was necessary to look for new heroes and raise them on a shield with the means of communicative technologies. That is, it was necessary to make a whole series of new, colorful and colorful films about ... Dmitry Donskoy, political instructor Klochkov, captain Marinesko, about the hero-pilots who bombed Berlin already in 41, and not worse, but better than the American movie "Memphis Beauty". We have more 400 (!) Heroes who have accomplished a feat similar to the exploit of Alexander Matrosov, and many made it much earlier than he. Of the ancient heroes about Svyatoslav alone, it would have been possible to make more than one epic film, so there would be no special problems with “nature”. Or, let's say, this is Pushkin: “Your shield is on the gates of Constantinople!” By the way, a good name for the film, and why don't we make it ?! After all, we also shot a wonderful series about Yermak or the same “Admiral” ... So even here it would be quite possible to “disperse” this topic for more than one series. The main problems here are money, professionalism and such a relic of the past, as the primacy of propaganda over historical science. But there's nothing to be done. It is what it is. But sooner or later, it will be necessary to realize that it is necessary to move away from the old attitude to history, as a servant of politics, to modern communication technologies, and to understand that there are other technologies for managing mass consciousness and that they are no worse than the order of everyone’s annoying propaganda and agitation. Well, it’s quite possible to say about Prince Alexander himself that, having stood against the Swedes and the Germans, he eventually turned into a symbol and a victim of propaganda, the power of which, by the way, under certain conditions, no one denies!

PS: Those who wish to deepen their knowledge on this topic and obtain additional information can recommend the following work:
Goryaeva T. "If tomorrow is war ..." The image of the enemy in the Soviet propaganda 1941-1945 // Russia and Germany in the twentieth century. Tom. 1. Seduction by power. Russians and Germans in the First and Second World Wars. M., 2010. C. 343 - 372.
Senyavsky A.S. Soviet ideology in the years of the Second World War: stability, elements of transformation, influence on historical memory // History and culture of the victor country: on the 65 anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War. Samara, 2010. - C.10-19.
Schenk FB Alexander Nevsky in Russian cultural memory: Saint, ruler, national hero (1263 - 2000). M., 2007.
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  1. Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 15 July 2016 06: 06
    +4
    Let's at least count it ... according to the words. Thus, the Novgorod Chronicle devotes 125 words to him, and the battle on the Neva (1240) 232 words, while the message of the Battle of Rakovors (1268) has already been transmitted in 780 words, i.e. practically six times more is said about him than about the battle on Lake Peipsi.

    and here about 2814 words about it, and everything to belittle (also induced through this and WWII)
    They don’t write a lot about the Great Victory at once;
    1. Vend
      Vend 15 July 2016 10: 08
      +8
      so as not to jeopardize the whole of Russian history as a whole and subsequently not to produce those who, over time, would speculate on all these and other similar exaggerations, denying our entire history as reliable. If this were done, the hyperbolized image of Alexander Nevsky would have remained in the memory of the people, as one of the symbols of the Great Patriotic War, and a monument to the art of the Soviet era, and no one would have broken copies, for example, here in VO. “So it was!” So ​​what ?!
      The film about the Kulikovo battle has not yet been shot, however, spears break wherever possible. And if you take your approach, you will get knowledge about the legendary Smolensk regiments at the Battle of Grunwald, which were almost never written about in Soviet and Russian history. So a stingy couple of lines in the description of the victory of the Polish-Lithuanian army.
      After all, we shot a wonderful series about Ermak
      The series is ugly.
      We need to make high-quality films about Russian history, even if they will be controversial, but they should be. Recently, there are very few quality historical films.
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 57
        +5
        . The series is ugly

        Looking with what to compare, if with the Battle of Sevostopol, then Ermak is a masterpiece.
        There is really no film about the Kulikovo battle, but there is a very good animated film.
        And to be honest, it would be better not to shoot patriotic films now, because there is no one to shoot and play, but good cartoons are shot, for example, the same Battle for Sevostopol and the cartoons Fortress and Prince Vladimir, which one has more patriotism? In my opinion, there are a lot more cartoons, and their audience is correct, an adult can read a book.
        1. Vend
          Vend 15 July 2016 16: 01
          0
          Quote: cth; fyn
          . The series is ugly

          Looking with what to compare, if with the Battle of Sevostopol, then Ermak is a masterpiece.
          There is really no film about the Kulikovo battle, but there is a very good animated film.
          And to be honest, it would be better not to shoot patriotic films now, because there is no one to shoot and play, but good cartoons are shot, for example, the same Battle for Sevostopol and the cartoons Fortress and Prince Vladimir, which one has more patriotism? In my opinion, there are a lot more cartoons, and their audience is correct, an adult can read a book.

          The cartoon is called Nepryadva Swans. Why is there no one to play. For example, the role of Yaroslav in the film "Yaroslav. 1000 Years Ago" Alexander Ivashkevich played very well, and the old Vladimir Antonik was at his best. However, for the rest, of course, you can recall Stanislavsky "I do not believe". Kravchenko was not drawn to the Viking in any way. Gone is the Soviet school of acting casting, and the directors have become weaker. There is a get-together, but talented young directors are not allowed there. However, it all starts about the script. If the script is not written professionally, then nothing good will come of it. When the heroes of the past speak in modern language and sprinkle phrases with parasites, for example, "let's just soak him", this is in the 17th century about the emperor. There is no need to wait for a quality film. Vasilisa's last disappointment. But you need to shoot. I'm waiting for the film "Viking" about Prince Vladimir. I do not harbor illusions, but suddenly.
    2. potroshenko
      potroshenko 15 July 2016 11: 19
      -3
      Quote: Simpsonian
      and here about 2814 words about it, and everything to belittle (also induced through this and WWII)

      I would like to thank the author for the article, there are people for whom the truth is dearer. And the fact that many "burns" from "breaking the covers" - do not pay attention.
    3. xtur
      xtur 15 July 2016 11: 21
      +7
      the author undertook to judge a region in which he did not understand the word at all. This is not about PR, but about myths, and their goal is to help create a nation.

      These are all elements of the theory of nation-building.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 15 July 2016 18: 56
        +1
        Quote: xtur
        the author undertook to judge a region in which he did not understand the word at all. This is not about PR, but about myths, and their goal is to help create a nation.
        These are all elements of the theory of nation-building.

        And here you are wrong, dear. The author is an ochchchen major specialist in PRI, advertising, though for some reason Japanese (I suspect we have a lot of secret Japanese and we need to sell crap taking into account the mentality) and so on. And on the example of our Stalinist propaganda, he shows how it works. PR and advertising are his bread, and history, Ph.D. "Party leadership of scientific and technical creativity of students of the Middle Volga region during the ninth five-year plan, 1971-1975". With such scientific baggage, only the wagons can be unloaded. “But there were good people, they picked it up, warmed it up,” and now he will teach us how to love the Motherland correctly, according to English patterns.
        "Kirpichnikov, Danilevsky, Kvyatkovsky, Zhukov, finally, how this event is viewed by modern English-speaking historians" But I have a question: we cleaned the duckweed for the Germans, Danes, and the works are offered by English, our ideological enemies, why the British know and understand more than the same Germans. And if ours, then the clown Zhukov slip. And what A. Nechvolodov wrote about Alexander Nevsky is not interesting, it's clear. I advise you to read: "The Tale of the Russian Land" St. Petersburg, 1913, because of the year in low circulation.
        1. user
          user 16 July 2016 10: 57
          +3
          “But there were good people, they picked it up, warmed it up,” and now he will teach us how to love the Motherland correctly, according to English patterns.


          Well, the author needs to do justice.

          “Such a good prince cannot die”


          Once again I am convinced of the genius of Joseph Vissarionovich, when he did something he always tried to predict the result of his actions. What is a rather rare quality, usually with us "the main thing is to crow, and then at least not dawn ah."
    4. Pavel1
      Pavel1 15 July 2016 15: 03
      +8
      Shpakovsky, who serves and serves Western history, intensely promotes Western weapons, fortresses, battles and the Western way of life at the same time intensely debunking the facts of Russian history. Not that business is this popularizer of Western armies.
      To investigate the very fact of the battle according to the annals, it doesn’t work out (maybe the problem is about the Old Slavonic, maybe laziness), but they muddle Soviet publications and the efforts of the Soviet information and political department, which by all means lifted the spirit of our army in the difficult hours of that time, always please.
      If such "historians-truth-lovers" would dare to do something like that in wartime, then there would be only one sentence - shooting for anti-Soviet propaganda, and if post-war then why should they be sent, like Solzhenitsyn with the stigma of anti-Soviet.
      The image of Alexander Nevsky is the image of the Russian defender and savior, the commander, who is honored with us and afraid in the West, and of course it is his image and his words that inspire the Russian people and soldiers to serve the Fatherland and not like touching Shpakovsky with their paws .. .
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 15 July 2016 17: 45
        +3
        Quote: Paul1
        history, Western weapons, fortresses, battles, and the Western way of life are intensely PR, at the same time, the facts of Russian history are heavily debunked.

        I admit, your words make sense. In 2 of 3 photos with the name of Nevsky western technology. On a single photo, ours, and lined. The picture is also with Western technology)))
        It turns out that in the photographs and pictures the war technique is represented by western samples 75% (and the whole ones), domestic 25% (and knocked out) In reality, Lend-Lease military equipment at best represented 5-8%. Here it is an example of hidden propaganda.
      2. Rivares
        Rivares 15 July 2016 17: 52
        +3
        so as not to say that there are no other images of equipment with the name of Nevsky
  2. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 15 July 2016 07: 25
    +10
    "The following details attract themselves: the sword of the Russian warrior expanding towards the end (giving the image an epic significance), the cow horns on the helmet of the German knight (demonstrating his malice -" devil horned "and at the same time doomed to slaughter), and the fascist emblem on the sleeve of the German soldier. Yes, the soldiers of the Wehrmacht did not wear such emblems, but the enemy and his ideological affiliation were so clearly indicated. "

    Does the author demand historical authenticity from the propaganda poster? request
    1. kalibr
      15 July 2016 08: 19
      -1
      On the contrary - everything is exactly as it should be, not just too much. In this case, all the necessary symbols are present and given exactly as they should. Isn't this written in the text? In my opinion, it is just written and detailed.
    2. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 10: 40
      +2
      The author does not require historical authenticity from the poster, analyzes the visual impact of the campaign material. Very good, author - well done.
  3. svp67
    svp67 15 July 2016 07: 28
    +7
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Let's at least count it ... according to the words. Thus, the Novgorod Chronicle devotes 125 words to him, and the battle on the Neva (1240) 232 words, while the message of the Battle of Rakovors (1268) has already been transmitted in 780 words, i.e. practically six times more is said about him than about the battle on Lake Peipsi.

    And how many words about this in the "Livonian Rhymed Chronicle" the author did not count?
    It is interesting that the armor of the knights on them almost never corresponded to the real armament of the knights of the middle of the XNUMXth century, but belonged to the XNUMXth, as a more "solid" and "impressive" type of armor.
    So the Russian armor is not exactly the same as it was and what of this?
    1. kalibr
      15 July 2016 08: 26
      -2
      The visual image of the poster does not match the image from the film. And he must comply. This is the foundation of the theory of propaganda, dear moderator. One must reinforce the other!
      1. svp67
        svp67 15 July 2016 08: 38
        +8
        Quote: kalibr
        The visual image of the poster does not match the image from the film. And he must comply. This is the foundation of the theory of propaganda, dear moderator. One must reinforce the other!

        Does this image fit?
        1. kalibr
          15 July 2016 08: 51
          +1
          Now that's an interesting question! It is not known how A. Nevsky himself looked. Whether he had a beard or not, so did. But when the conversation turned to what he should look like on the order, they decided - "Cherkasov's profile, as clear and recognizable." And from the point of view of information technology, it was absolutely the right decision. Visualizing a familiar image is always a very powerful move.
          True, I would not wear a Turkish-style shishak on him, but would put on a classic Russian helmet, but it is clear that this one is "prettier" and more sophisticated.
      2. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 15 July 2016 19: 02
        -1
        Quote: kalibr
        The visual image of the poster does not match the image from the film. And he must comply. This is the foundation of the theory of propaganda, dear moderator. One must reinforce the other!

        Should, and does not correspond, ay-ay-ay and does not enhance. How far advertising has gone in 75 years and "Caliber" with it.
  4. free
    free 15 July 2016 07: 43
    +8
    the author, under the guise of restoring historical accuracy, is trying to bring up our national pride as an inaccuracy, trying to break the ground from under our feet.
    1. kalibr
      15 July 2016 08: 22
      0
      The author tries to convey to the mentally poor that nothing in history can be exaggerated or underestimated, that this gives rise to innuendo and unhealthy sensations. We have enough reason to be proud of ourselves, but history is one thing, propaganda is another. If you don't understand, think about it. And the soil is bad that is based on unreliability and exaggeration. The Bible says: "A house built on sand will not stand"
      1. svp67
        svp67 15 July 2016 08: 25
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        And the soil that is based on inaccuracy and exaggeration is bad.

        And why is the soil of the "ice battle" bad? Explain to the poor.
        1. kalibr
          15 July 2016 08: 42
          0
          There were five articles on this topic here. It is difficult to explain in a nutshell. In short, it is like this: "You shouldn't lie where you can not lie." But it's better to read all these materials at your leisure. The texts of the annals are also there. Once again the text of Stalin's Pravda ... The newspaper Moskovsky Bolshevik is quoted here, where it is not clear where the figure of 1000 horsemen came from. Then I'm sure you will understand.
          1. svp67
            svp67 15 July 2016 08: 49
            +6
            Quote: kalibr
            Once again, the text of the Stalinist Truth ... Newspapers Moscow Bolshevik, where it is not clear where the figure of 1000 horsemen came up. Then, I’m sure you will understand.

            Listen to the saying that "there is no place where they do not lie like fishing, hunting and in the war," the PEOPLE came up with. And he knew what he was talking about. It’s not in the numbers, which, apart from historians, no one remembers, it’s the fact that there was a battle, that Nevsky won a victory in it, that’s the main thing. In people it was necessary to instill confidence that since their ancestors beat them, then we can. Indeed, for that generation, the events of the First World War did not go away from the memory.
            1. kalibr
              15 July 2016 08: 56
              +1
              And where does the article say what is not necessary? Why didn't they beat you? That is the difficulty, by the way, that you need to write history without going to extremes and (especially for children) interesting, understandable, and ... yes, patriotic! And at the same time do not lie, creating the basis for further pseudo-discoveries. You are a moderator - take a look at what Elim Zhukov talks about this battle in the "Goblin's Corner". Here it was laid out twice or three times. And he is a very good specialist. Read Kirpichnikov, what are the problems? And if you are so interested in the theory of propaganda, then at your service is my electronic textbook: History of PR (manual for distance learning). Shpakovsky V.O., Shpakovskaya S.V. there is everything about it and a lot of interesting examples.
              1. svp67
                svp67 15 July 2016 09: 09
                +6
                Quote: kalibr
                That's the difficulty, by the way, that you need to write history without going to extremes and (especially for children) is interesting, understandable, and ... yes, patriotic! And while not lying, creating the basis for subsequent pseudo-discoveries.

                Yes, everything seems to be correct. And now let's move on to the details, but what was known apart from the events of the "massacre" at that time, the 30s of the 20th century? The first real "comprehensive expedition to clarify the site of the ice battle" was formed and sent to those places only in the late 50s of the 20th century. And what do you want from the 30s? Now look the TRUTH in the eyes, people have little information, the same experts, but there is a fact and urgent action is needed. So they did it.
                By the way, they are acting in the same way in Ukraine. When from the slightest event they are trying to develop an event of a universal scale. They think about "today", a little about "tomorrow", but they don't even look into the "day after tomorrow", according to the principle "the winners are not judged." If your propaganda succeeds in attracting supporters, it's already excellent. And then the "history" will be written by the winners. Who will, if not hang "truth-lovers", then in any case will make his life very unbearable.
                And if it comes to that, the "battle on the ice" was the first to extol the ROC, long before the Bolsheviks. And Stalin was simply not a bad student at the seminary and knew how to apply the knowledge he received in it in time.
                1. kalibr
                  15 July 2016 09: 14
                  -1
                  I read your articles on Ukraine ...

                  And now let's move on to the details, but what was known apart from the events of the "massacre" at that time, the 30s of the 20th century?
                  CHRONICLES! Everything had to be built and built on them - See the article in Truth from April 5 1942. But they added too much to it - see Moscow Bolshevik - here. And it was necessary to limit ourselves to the text of Truth!
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 15 July 2016 09: 28
                    +3
                    Quote: kalibr
                    But they added too much to it - see Moscow Bolshevik - here. And it was necessary to limit ourselves to the text of Truth!

                    You know it’s good to evaluate now what has been done then, but it’s interesting how you would act then.
                  2. Svidetel 45
                    Svidetel 45 15 July 2016 14: 57
                    +4
                    In addition to chronicles, which may also not always contain reliable information, because they are written by people with their own subjective opinions and perceptions of the events of which they were contemporaries, it is necessary to use, analyze and use other sources of information, for example archaeological materials, or even epics, to determine the reliability and why not, they too may contain grains of truth that a real researcher can highlight.
                2. Zulu_S
                  Zulu_S 15 July 2016 11: 41
                  +4
                  Of course, Stalin was not the first to "raise on the shield" the image of the holy noble Prince Alexander Nevsky, made him a subject of state. propaganda, that is why the image of him as an ORTHODOX SAINT was especially successful for popular perception. Don't forget, even the church was used to win, after more than 20 years of persecution! After VICTORY, religion was again treated as an ideological enemy, but Alexander Nevsky remained. And any attempt to transfer HISTORY from the category of "ideological forgiveness here" to the category of science is a step in the right direction!
              2. Zulu_S
                Zulu_S 15 July 2016 11: 14
                +1
                Undoubtedly, ALL OPPORTUNITIES must be used in the fight against the enemy.
                And thanks to this, at least in such a form, they reminded the people that he had a GREAT HISTORY, GREAT CULTURE, and that the people were not a part of the "world proletariat" made with a finger. "There would be no happiness, but misfortune helped." And as you correctly noted in the series of articles, further analysis is needed!
                HISTORICAL TRUTH CANNOT DESTROY PEOPLE! The Clever will find in the TRUE story of his people, the hardest, perhaps the most impartial in some of his episodes, FORCE AND MATERIALS FOR MEDITATION. And to fools and Tolkien’s head! Also, hell, agitation of its kind. No wonder because there Orcs from the east go! Thanks again for the interesting and USEFUL article.
              3. Zulu_S
                Zulu_S 15 July 2016 11: 48
                -1
                Undoubtedly, ALL OPPORTUNITIES must be used in the fight against the enemy.
                And thanks to this, at least in this form, they reminded the people that they have a GREAT HISTORY, a GREAT CULTURE, and that the people are not a part of the "world proletariat" made with a finger. "There would be no happiness, but misfortune helped." And as you correctly noted in the series of articles, further analysis is needed!
                HISTORICAL TRUTH CANNOT DESTROY PEOPLE! The Clever will find in the TRUE story of his people, the hardest, perhaps the most impartial in some of his episodes, FORCE AND MATERIALS FOR MEDITATION. And to fools and Tolkien’s head! Also, hell, agitation of its kind. No wonder because there Orcs from the east go! Thanks again for the interesting and USEFUL article.
                1. cth; fyn
                  cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 48
                  0
                  Orcs are Germans, Russians are forest Elves, Eorlings are French, Gondors are English. The Lord of the Rings - an autobiography seasoned with myths and great self-digging with elements of self-flagellation.
                  1. Zulu_S
                    Zulu_S 15 July 2016 15: 01
                    +1
                    Quote: cth; fyn
                    Orcs are Germans, Russians are forest Elves, Eorlings are French, Gondors are English.

                    Such pesonification is hardly justified, especially in the modern epic based on the Scandinavian-Roman sagas. It is possible that at the time of writing - the orcs and could be associated with the Nazis, but by the time of publication in the 50s, after Churchill's Fulton speech, and even more so now, when some believe that Germany in World War II was an ally of America, Great Britain and "the whole civilized world" against "the tyrant Stalin and the communist Hitler" who do you think the orcs represent?
                    But this, however, has no direct relevance to the topic of the article. Want to debate on this topic, write in a personal. I will answer. Regards.
          2. Aleksander
            Aleksander 15 July 2016 09: 27
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            There were five materials on this topic. In a nutshell, it's hard to explain. In short, then: "You shouldn't lie where you can not lie

            Of course, so.
            However, the allegations of lies imply that the applicant knows absolutely as it really was. However, this is impossible a priori, which the author himself showed ..
            The only thing that is most likely true is the remark regarding lat. And even then, there was no armor in the accepted meaning, but there could have been, and most likely, were armor from metal plates — they had been known for a thousand years.
            Everything else: mentioned, not mentioned, drowned, not drowned, the number of words, indirect evidence that can be interpreted in the exact opposite sense.
            Article plus for the description of the general principle of the mechanism of propaganda, but in this particular example, propaganda is not proven (in my purely personal view).
      2. activator
        activator 15 July 2016 09: 06
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        The author tries to convey to the mentally poor that nothing in history can be exaggerated or underestimated, that this gives rise to innuendo and unhealthy sensations. We have enough reason to be proud of ourselves, but history is one thing, propaganda is another. If you don't understand, think about it. And the soil is bad that is based on unreliability and exaggeration. The Bible says: "A house built on sand will not stand"

        This is how it turns out when you debunk the image of Nevsky, you agree that basically this image is the merit of Soviet propaganda, you should have done it that way, but many, as well as in my childhood, considered the ice battle almost an analogue of the Second World War. Just by historical standards, the beginning of a propaganda campaign began relatively recently and this can be traced, which is what the fighters for historical truth do, especially since this truth somewhat detracts from the significance of the battle for Russia as an occasion for pride. by and large there is nothing proud of the ice and they themselves drowned. But when you start talking about the Slavic Vedas, that there might not have been a yoke in that sense, but there was a civil war between Christians and pagans, well, about everything that gives us reason for pride, so here competent opinions immediately arise that it can not be and could not be, but to assume that someone at that time rewrote history for themselves for propaganda purposes or some other way that you are heresy. Well, actually they are historians, historians.
      3. Rivares
        Rivares 15 July 2016 18: 46
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        The author tries to convey to the mentally miserable that in history nothing can be exaggerated or understated, that this provides the basis for insinuations and unhealthy sensations

        But at the same time, the author himself uses the method of exaggeration, understatement and silence)
      4. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 15 July 2016 19: 04
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        The author tries to convey to the mentally poor that nothing in history can be exaggerated or underestimated, that this gives rise to innuendo and unhealthy sensations. We have enough reason to be proud of ourselves, but history is one thing, propaganda is another. If you don't understand, think about it. And the soil is bad that is based on unreliability and exaggeration. The Bible says: "A house built on sand will not stand"

        Hamish guy, and you’re offended that nobody wants to feed the pigs with you.
    2. AK64
      AK64 15 July 2016 09: 28
      -5
      the author, under the guise of restoring historical accuracy, is trying to bring up our national pride as an inaccuracy, trying to break the ground from under our feet.


      So him, villain, so!

      Attacks the scrapes, Sinister!
  5. Brigadier
    Brigadier 15 July 2016 08: 37
    +6
    As I understand it, the author himself was personally at that Battle of the Ice, if he so confidently talks about SEPARATE facts ...
    Do not forget that this is still history, and many of the information that is in the textbooks on the history of the whole world is sometimes either established later than historical events of that time, or is incorrectly interpreted many years after past events. Or they are written by those who benefit from EXACTLY SUCH writing ...
    That is why, it is very interesting - why did the author modestly keep silent that the Slavic chronicle of Russia was badly mutilated and perverted by the GERMAN "professors" of the Catherine period, who in every possible way tried to belittle and slander our achievements?
    But even if they, even gritting their teeth, were forced to admit this battle, then we must assume that it was a FAR READY BATTLE BATTLE of that time, as the author was trying to imagine, in the hope of belittling its importance for the RUSSIAN people in every way ... So something ...
    1. kalibr
      15 July 2016 08: 44
      -9
      Quote: Brigadier
      it was the German "professors" of the Catherine period who severely mutilated and perverted the Slavic chronicle of Russia,

      Have you defended a candidate or doctoral degree on this topic? Or use journalistic information? PSRL read ...
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 16 July 2016 04: 56
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Brigadier
        it was the German "professors" of the Catherine period who severely mutilated and perverted the Slavic chronicle of Russia,

        Have you defended a candidate or doctoral degree on this topic? Or use journalistic information? PSRL read ...

        Caliber, "Have you defended your PhD or PhD on this topic?" Forgot, let me remind you of your topic:
        "Party leadership of scientific and technical creativity of students of the Middle Volga region during the ninth five-year plan, 1971-1975".
        Hamit is not necessary!
        1. kalibr
          16 July 2016 20: 22
          -2
          A person is not posed as a scientist at the time of defense of the dissertation. This is a qualification work confirming the ability to work with sources, literature, draw conclusions and generalize. I have it. The opponent doesn't even have that, does he? And then everyone chooses a sphere of scientific interests. You did not forget that then was the 91th? And then there were other books far more significant than that kind of work. Everything is online.
    2. svp67
      svp67 15 July 2016 08: 56
      +4
      Quote: Brigadier
      But even if they, even gritting their teeth, were forced to admit this battle, then we must assume that it was a FAR READY BATTLE BATTLE of that time, as the author was trying to imagine, in the hope of belittling its importance for the RUSSIAN people in every way ... So something ...

      Otherwise it would not have been included in their Chronicles. Prince Alexander proved that you should not climb into Russia, it is better to fight with Lithuania, it will be easier for you.
      1. kalibr
        15 July 2016 09: 06
        -5
        Look at the tutorial for the 7 class for how long he proved it. And it entered the Chronicles because they were read in the knights' halls, remembering the brothers in Christ. It was a kind of knightly commemoration for the slain. From here it says that there were 60 Novgorodians for one knight - well, not so offensive! We, too, initially in the text of the Novgorod annals of a large exodus there were 400 killed, and then it became 500. Normal practice then and, alas, today.
        And you know, dear moderator, let’s nod less at the people. And then I will remind you an excerpt from the novel by Boleslav Prus "Pharaoh". There, the priest Mentesufis frightens the high priest Herhor by the fact that the commoners are openly hostile to the priests. He replies: "The people are grass - bending in the wind!" "An army is against us!" "What army will not bow before Osiris?" "There is none, but I see neither the wind, nor Osiris. They have nothing to fear!" "Besides the wrath of Osiris!" Mentesufis left, and Herhor ordered not to spare the gold and get the people to attack the temples the next day and always at noon! Well, what was there next was in the book and in the film. You can look and see very clearly. By the way, then Herhor became a pharaoh. This is a historical fact.
        1. svp67
          svp67 15 July 2016 09: 23
          +6
          Quote: kalibr
          And you know, dear moderator, let's nod less at the people.

          You know, "nodding", as well as "spitting" on the people, in the end turns out to be very unhealthy. The people must be loved and kept strict, that is, educated. And propaganda is one of those tools. And the question is different: why are you so attached to Soviet propaganda? Let’s ask the Russian Orthodox Church, she has been praising this event for a long time, like Prince Alexander Nevsky.
          How much truth is there in this icon, especially with regard to the host of heaven?
          1. kalibr
            15 July 2016 09: 26
            -3
            Quote: svp67
            why are you so attached to Soviet propaganda,

            The job is to train PR specialists and propagandists.
            1. svp67
              svp67 15 July 2016 09: 32
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              The job is to train PR specialists and propagandists.

              So cook, people just do not need to mess up. Any "eye opening" must be done very carefully, otherwise there can be dire consequences. And it is not worth helping our opponents and enemies.
              1. kalibr
                16 July 2016 20: 24
                -2
                And you, moderator, don’t you know that the fewer clicks, the more solid the site is on the advertising field?
              2. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid 17 July 2016 19: 42
                0
                Probably, in different countries there are some taboo topics --- in history, in politics. In religion, this also exists.
                I think there should be some kind of taboo regarding "opening the eyes" and "ripping off the veils".
                As for the truth, here's the thing: it’s not customary to somehow tell people about your illnesses in detail or ailment, show operating scars or suddenly praise everyone’s chest of his wife and show her to everyone. But this is true. People somehow rarely tell about unseemly acts of themselves, their relatives or friends, even if it’s true. And if someone else tells such a truth, then he might get it .... Somehow.
          2. Zulu_S
            Zulu_S 15 July 2016 13: 32
            +3
            Quote: svp67
            People must be loved and kept in strictness, that is, educated.

            The people, by the way, very well "separates the wheat from the chaff" themselves. The people are not a small child, so that they can spank their ass, or put them in a corner. And he perceives the slightest insincerity intuitively. And all kinds of "educators" claiming to be "the ultimate truth" are the most harmful lice on the people's body. And the attitude towards them should be appropriate - squeamish - disinfecting. The business of any more or less educated person is to ensure access to EDUCATION, the more educated the people, the more opportunities we have for development, and for the defense of the Motherland, and for her Motherland, prosperity. Yours faithfully,...
            1. svp67
              svp67 15 July 2016 21: 29
              0
              Quote: Zulu_S
              The people are not a small child to spank, loving him in the ass, or to put in a corner.

              You do not seem to have not raised your children, if you say so.
              People need to be educated so that they become a people, not a crowd. And the state, if it wants to exist for a long time, is simply obligated to attend to the education of people.
              Quote: Zulu_S
              And all kinds of "educators" claiming to be "the ultimate truth" are the most harmful lice on the people's body.
              That is, "Thou shalt not kill, do not steal ..." is this "lice notion"? Then announce what rules do you propose to live by?
          3. kalibr
            15 July 2016 16: 47
            -2
            Don't confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs, eh? "It's absurd, that's why I believe!" - said Thomas Aquinas
            1. Mavrikiy
              Mavrikiy 15 July 2016 19: 15
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              Don't confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs, eh? "It's absurd, that's why I believe!" - said Thomas Aquinas

              More likely I do not believe, because it is ridiculous. The article is not about history, but about propaganda, only the topic was not chosen successfully. The enemy will not pass!
        2. alstr
          alstr 15 July 2016 10: 13
          +3
          Yeah. 60 Novgorodians per knight. Only now the knights were counted, but their troops were not. And from the side of Novgorod they even counted the riders. So the forces were numerically equal, but not qualitatively. All the same, there were more militias from Novgorod.
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 15 July 2016 19: 19
            +2
            Quote: alstr
            Yeah. 60 Novgorodians per knight. Only now the knights were counted, but their troops were not. And from the side of Novgorod they even counted the riders. So the forces were numerically equal, but not qualitatively. All the same, there were more militias from Novgorod.

            Alexander Nevsky drove in after the victory, and 50 "noble knights" walked in front of him. THE FAMOUS. And how many were killed? I ask again: why does the author stubbornly refer to English historians, and not to German and Danish?
          2. Rivares
            Rivares 15 July 2016 20: 14
            +1
            Quote: alstr
            And from the side of Novgorod, even counters were counted

            Apparently still their wives and children)))
            1000 warriors come out per 60000 teutons !!! And while the Teutons are attacking !!! I can’t even imagine this.
    3. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 12: 01
      +5
      The author was neither a participant nor an eyewitness to the Battle of the Ice, therefore, he does not belong to the category of "lying as an eyewitness," and does not try to belittle either the role of Alexander Nevsky in history, or the role of the battle itself. But any attempt to find another grain of truth cannot be mistaken for ideological sabotage!
  6. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 09: 05
    0
    Good, everyone! smile
    Article (-).
    The author, imperceptibly for himself, expressed his credo - "The main problems here are money, professionalism and such a relic of the past as the primacy of propaganda over historical science." laughing
    1. kalibr
      15 July 2016 09: 17
      -2
      Quote: Cosmonaut
      The author, imperceptibly for himself, expressed his credo: “The main problems here are money, professionalism and such a relic of the past as the primacy of propaganda over historical science.

      And what's wrong with that? And why imperceptibly? And what do you dislike about professionalism? Are you treating your teeth? Do you have a healer?
  7. Cartalon
    Cartalon 15 July 2016 09: 18
    -4
    Excellent article
  8. Basil50
    Basil50 15 July 2016 10: 06
    +4
    This article became possible only because OUR ancestors WIN. They advertise a docfilm about the composer on TV and inflate his talent in such a way that it seems that we all exist only thanks to his music and contrast him to STALIN, for which there are only derogatory epithets. Of course it is clear that * democrats * spit on the trail AND IN STALIN a mandatory ritual, but SO * to compare * the scale of historical events, this already produces a comic effect where clowns look * heroes * * liberals *. At the same time, the composer was a truly worthy person and his attitude to AND IN STALIN was different, but always respectful. It is a pity that today's * trend * of journalism is slipping into primitive criticism instead of exploring and respecting those who worked in those difficult times, when there was a real threat to the entire SOVIET people.
    1. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 13: 40
      0
      If you are talking about Prokofiev, then this is a person GLORifying RUSSIA. He was not lucky to die on March 5, 1953.
  9. alebor
    alebor 15 July 2016 11: 12
    +6
    By the way, the image of Alexander Nevsky was also used for 200 years before the events described in the article. As you know, during the Northern War with Sweden, Peter I founded the Alexander Nevsky Monastery (Lavra) in the place where, according to legend, the famous Neva battle took place. The remains of the prince were also transferred from Vladimir to the founded monastery. The only difference is that if during the Great Patriotic War the image of Nevsky was promoted as the winner of the Germans, then during the Northern War as the winner of the Swedes.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 13
      +3
      Not bad he served the fatherland.
  10. Alex
    Alex 15 July 2016 11: 15
    +8
    Vyacheslav, welcome, I recognized your style immediately!
    At the same time, the enemies of Alexander Nevsky were exclusively Teutonic knights. All other opponents of the prince, in particular, the Swedes, who maintained neutrality, did not stand out on the posters.
    On the posters - yes, but this is understandable: the poster should be capacious and holistic, these are not Glazunov’s paintings, where you count only half an hour and then learn the same explanation for the picture. But in the film there is a mention of them, in the very first scene.

    Nikolay Cherkasov as Prince Alexander Nevsky - one of his best roles
    I absolutely agree, even on Wikipedia the photo is a photo test from this film. And as for me, all his roles are amazing. His Jacques Paganel in "Children of Captain Grant" simply fascinated him, just as he admired Professor Polezhaev from "Deputy of the Baltic" (you don't have to strain to see Timiryazev). But the words of his professor Dronov from "Everything remains for people" became a guide in my life for me.

    But then, according to their time, it was necessary to look for new heroes and raise them to the shield by means of communicative technologies. That is, it was necessary to shoot a whole series of new, colorful and colorful films about ... Dmitry Donskoy, political instructor Klochkov, captain Marinesco, about the pilot heroes who bombed Berlin already in the 41, and not worse, but better than the American movie "Beauty Memphis".
    It has been said more than once that our cinema is raising no one knows. There is a film and Marinesco, but as controversial as the notorious "Admiral". They shot another film about Yaroslav the Wise, but this is a complete fantasy of the scriptwriter and director. I am generally silent about the "Battle for Sevastopol": there Pavlichenko is not so much a heroine as a background for a set of cliches: both political instructors without the slightest pity for a person, and a mediocre leadership, and, of course, Eleanor Roosevelt (well, how can it be without allies!) ...
  11. Zulu_S
    Zulu_S 15 July 2016 12: 25
    +1
    A very useful SERIES OF ARTICLES! Thanks to the author. Attempts to present the article as an ideological sabotage are not clear to me. After all, this is not a claim for "the ultimate truth", but a proposal to see a historical fact from another angle! What's bad about it? "EVERYTHING THAT DOESN'T KILL US MAKES US STRONGER!" History is not only, and not even so much a weapon as a SCIENCE, in any case, it should be. And in SCIENCE discussion is necessary! Thanks again to the author.
  12. Kenneth
    Kenneth 15 July 2016 12: 29
    -6
    The article is definitely a plus. Advocacy is good at school, but we try to comprehend history as it was, not how we were taught it in the interests of parties and individuals. Alexander was not an icon but a living person who was engaged in his own benefit and the benefit of his family. The massacre of ice is exclusively an episode of clarifying the economic contradictions between Novgorod Pskov and the Order. And nothing more.
    1. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 13: 08
      +3
      Well, you are just a Marxist (don’t take it as a curse). So after all, the Hundred Years War between England and France was a "gangster showdown between mafia families, and the battles of Crécy and Poitou were just" the boys scored arrows "? And to become, of course, a plus.
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth 15 July 2016 18: 39
        -2
        Actually, there were dynastic graters there. With a loot in the form of a nice bonus. And you can call battles arrows. Depends on the environment in which you are used to communicate
    2. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 11
      +3
      In this light, it is possible to show the Second World War as well, saying that the Reich alone secured their eastern border and no more, well, purely economic: the capture of the Caucasian oil fields, no more, but in reality it is a great tragedy and a sacrifice of the Soviet people in which he wrested Victory from a strong enemy.
      1. Zulu_S
        Zulu_S 15 July 2016 14: 08
        +2
        Quote: cth; fyn
        but in reality it is a great tragedy and a sacrifice of the Soviet people in which he snatched Victory from a strong enemy.

        That's what the conversation is about! It would be a desire, and any war can be imagined as a gang war. The question is about the degree of disgust.
      2. Kenneth
        Kenneth 15 July 2016 19: 04
        -3
        And if you do not engage in demagogy and study history a little, and even more so bind events to a period, then you can say that your calculations and comparisons are ridiculous. Novgorod always tried to subjugate Pskov, and sometimes it worked, and Pskov always tried to defend itself from Novgorod and sought help from both the Order and Moscow from time to time.
        Until Moscow ate both. And the ice battle is generally the result of the Order’s attempts to protect its lands from the robbery campaign of Novgorod Suzdal rati
    3. Rivares
      Rivares 15 July 2016 18: 56
      +2
      Quote: Kenneth
      The massacre of ice is exclusively an episode of clarifying the economic contradictions between Novgorod Pskov and the Order.

      No, actually. The Teutons followed the lands + carried Catholicism. They did not throw them for money Novgorod)
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth 15 July 2016 19: 12
        -1
        No, actually. Study the causes and extent of the conquest of Prussia and then draw conclusions. And to find out the difference between the Teutonic and Livonian Order
        1. Rivares
          Rivares 16 July 2016 16: 01
          +2
          Quote: Kenneth
          No, actually. Study the causes and extent of the conquest of Prussia and then draw conclusions. And to find out the difference between the Teutonic and Livonian Order

          I’ll also study something for loafers. You can’t answer anything, but you are already lecturing with what you yourself don’t know.
  13. The comment was deleted.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 07
      +3
      I don’t see any betrayal here, I personally have such a wonderful and effective propaganda machine that inspires respect, especially since it inspired the deeds of Our soldiers, but she needs to be proud and this article really makes you do it.
  14. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 15 July 2016 13: 04
    +2
    It would be nice at the end of the cycle to make links to the entire cycle, otherwise you already have 18 pages of publications on the VO.
  15. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 13: 22
    -1
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Cosmonaut
    The author, imperceptibly for himself, expressed his credo: “The main problems here are money, professionalism and such a relic of the past as the primacy of propaganda over historical science.

    And what's wrong with that? And why imperceptibly? And what do you dislike about professionalism? Are you treating your teeth? Do you have a healer?

    Let me explain - professional making money on the primacy of propaganda over historical science! laughing Carefully re-read the "header" of the article, what is more in the article, negative or positive ???! wassat
    Your question is the question of the demagogue !!! laughing
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 15 July 2016 13: 59
      -1
      It says that the primacy of propaganda over history is a relic of the past. So calm down you are not party meeting
  16. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 13: 27
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Let's at least count it ... according to the words. Thus, the Novgorod Chronicle devotes 125 words to him, and the battle on the Neva (1240) 232 words, while the message of the Battle of Rakovors (1268) has already been transmitted in 780 words, i.e. practically six times more is said about him than about the battle on Lake Peipsi.

    and here about 2814 words about it, and everything to belittle (also induced through this and WWII)
    They don’t write a lot about the Great Victory at once;

    The quintessence of this article is that there was almost no ice battle! wassat
    1. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 14: 13
      +1
      Quote: Cosmonaut
      The quintessence of this article is that there was almost no ice battle!

      The quintessence of the article is that any attempt to approach historical truth is only for the good of the motherland.
  17. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 14: 31
    +3
    Quote: Zulu_S
    Quote: Cosmonaut
    The quintessence of this article is that there was almost no ice battle!

    The quintessence of the article is that any attempt to approach historical truth is only for the good of the motherland.

    Dreaming is not bad !!! Only, somehow strange, in our time they are approaching historical truth !!!
    After such "labors" we only have to repent and realize our inferiority, but how else, if the heroes are invented, and there are more than enough tyrants !!! request
    psBesides everything else, this article is discussed here, and not the CYCLE of articles !!!
    And here, historical facts are practically not used! Propaganda is being discussed, and between the lines it’s written - all lies, everything is invented! wassat
    1. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S 15 July 2016 15: 29
      -2
      I can not agree with you. If you realize that you are flawed from any interference in the world that has developed in your mind, then this is your misfortune.
      The author in the article shows how a historical fact turns into a propaganda myth. By the way, he really worked for the Great Victory.
      Propaganda is a tool, a weapon. The machine gun in the hands of the enemy is a barbaric weapon, and the enemy soldier himself is a mole, sadist, rapist and murderer, which is not very far from the truth. The machine gun in the hands of a soldier of our army is the noble weapon of the DEFENDER. Even if this machine is the same model. Regards and best wishes.
  18. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 14: 34
    +2
    Quote: Kenneth
    It says that the primacy of propaganda over history is a relic of the past. So calm down you are not party meeting

    Dear, what party are you talking about? winked
    We have a multiparty system and pluralism! wassat
  19. parusnik
    parusnik 15 July 2016 15: 32
    +3
    Then we wanted to make friends with the Germans so much that Soviet art decided not to offend them!..1934 year. Pilsudski-Hitler Pact.
    Non-aggression pact between Germany and Poland. It was supplemented by an agreement on trade and shipping, separate agreements on issues of the press, cinema, broadcasting, theater, etc.
    It was envisaged that the pact would remain valid if one of the contracting parties entered the war with third states. That is, Poland was not friends with Hitler according to this pact ..? 1935 year. Anglo-German Maritime Agreement.
    The British government satisfied Hitler's demand that "the strength of the German fleet should be 35% in relation to the total strength of the British Empire." The proportion 35: 100 was to be applied both to the total tonnage of the fleet and to each class of ships.
    With regard to submarine forces, Germany gained the right to equality with Britain, but pledged not to exceed 45% of the tonnage of British submarine forces. It was envisaged that in case of violation of this limit, Germany would inform the British government. Germany also committed to comply with the quality restrictions established by the Washington Treaty of 1922 and the London Treaty of 1930. In fact, the Germans were given the opportunity to build 5 battleships, two aircraft carriers, 21 cruisers and 64 destroyer. The agreement resulted in the final elimination of all restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. In terms of the permitted fleet tonnage, Germany was equalized with France and Italy, the victorious powers in World War I. England, of course, concluded this agreement to the detriment of Hitler ..
    Here is the text of the Moscow Treaty of 19139 between the USSR and Germany ..
    Article I
    Both Contracting Parties undertake to refrain from any violence, from any aggressive action and any attack against each other, both separately and jointly with other powers.
    Article II
    In the event that one of the Contracting Parties becomes the object of military action by a third power, the other Contracting Party will not support this power in any form.
    Article III
    The governments of both Contracting Parties will remain in contact with each other in the future for consultation in order to inform each other about issues affecting their common interests.
    Article IV
    None of the Contracting Parties will participate in any grouping of powers that directly or indirectly directed against the other party.
    Article V
    In the event of a dispute or conflict between Contracting Parties on issues of one kind or another, both parties will resolve these disputes or conflicts exclusively by peaceful means in a friendly exchange of views or, if necessary, by setting up commissions to resolve the conflict.
    Article VI
    This contract is concluded for a period of ten years so that since one of the Contracting Parties does not denounce it a year before the expiration of the term, the contract is automatically renewed for the next five years.
    Article VII.
    This treaty is subject to ratification as soon as possible. The exchange of instruments of ratification must take place in Berlin. The contract enters into force immediately after its signing.
    Where is the text about friendship between nations ..? At what point ..? .. They wanted not to offend, but not to annoy ..
  20. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2016 16: 03
    +3
    Can I say?

    Any national history is a part (and an important part) of a national legend. And it cannot be anything else.
    This is true both with us and with them.
    How important is it? And this is so important that the Japanese won’t simply invent the whole story for themselves. Through and through, from beginning to end.

    And if so, then a number of issues should be dealt with with the utmost caution and tact. And do not get in touchlessly "I know how it really was ...."

    Be careful. And tactfully. Moreover, over the past 30 years there have been an overwhelming number of "destroyers of the Battle of the Ice" myth ...

    (I especially remember one of this mass: an entot azhnik wrote a book. The book began like this: "I was in Paris - in Paris, Karl! - and bought a book there. The name is" military yntsyklopedia ". So there is no there about the battle on the ice not a word ... "I'm not kidding at all - this was the" logic "of the frame)

    In general, be careful. And more tactful. And do not pour water on the mill of world imperialism - they will pour it without you.

    (And indeed: in the homeland trade market, supply has long exceeded demand for a long time)
  21. akyb1975
    akyb1975 15 July 2016 18: 33
    -6
    According to the annals, when there was an ice battle, Alexander Nevsky was 4 years old
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 15 July 2016 18: 58
      +2
      What annals? I would have looked. (Minus is not mine)
  22. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 18: 43
    0
    Quote: Zulu_S
    I can not agree with you. If you realize that you are flawed from any interference in the world that has developed in your mind, then this is your misfortune.
    The author in the article shows how a historical fact turns into a propaganda myth. By the way, he really worked for the Great Victory.
    Propaganda is a tool, a weapon. The machine gun in the hands of the enemy is a barbaric weapon, and the enemy soldier himself is a mole, sadist, rapist and murderer, which is not very far from the truth. The machine gun in the hands of a soldier of our army is the noble weapon of the DEFENDER. Even if this machine is the same model. Regards and best wishes.

    Glad for you that you understood the article in this vein! (Without irony) wink
    Nevertheless, I have a completely different opinion, incl. minus further, but I can't digest such "historians"! wassat

    Quote: akyb1975
    According to the annals, when there was an ice battle, Alexander Nevsky was 4 years old

    So, so, study !!! laughing
  23. Cosmonaut
    Cosmonaut 15 July 2016 18: 56
    0
    Quote: Cosmonaut
    Good, everyone! smile
    Article (-).
    The author, imperceptibly for himself, expressed his credo - "The main problems here are money, professionalism and such a relic of the past as the primacy of propaganda over historical science." laughing

    Interestingly, in this post caused a negative reaction ???! fellow
    Quote from the author ??? The word is credo ???
    Or instead of "Good, everyone!" I had to sit down 3 times and say KU ??? laughing
    It is ridiculous that the minusoids understood what they were talking about !!! And were upset! wassat
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 15 July 2016 22: 56
      -1
      That you either misunderstood or intentionally distorted the author’s thought.
  24. Kenneth
    Kenneth 15 July 2016 22: 53
    +2
    Only complete idiots minus silently. If you do not agree, write in what. And the brains are not enough; better just shut up.
  25. domashniy domovoy
    domashniy domovoy 16 June 2020 00: 30
    -2
    Jews are evil