Military Review

Stalin's five questions

335
Stalin's five questions
It is difficult to understand some authors who sometimes have regalia and degrees when they state their position at the level of stamps and templates, or even simply lies about the times of 60 – 80-х.

The question of the catastrophic start of the war apparently worried Stalin all the time. Therefore, immediately after it ended, the General Headquarters was tasked to find out why it happened. The Military Scientific Directorate (Colonel-General A. P. Pokrovsky, Head) of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces summed up the experience of concentrating and deploying troops of the western border military districts according to the plan for covering the state border of 1941. To this end, five questions were posed to the generals, commanders of units and formations of the initial period of the war, stationed on the western border of the USSR.

1. Was the defense plan of the state border communicated to the troops in the unit concerned, when and what was done by the command and staffs to ensure the implementation of this plan?

2. Since when and on what basis did the covering troops begin to enter the state border and how many of them were deployed before the outbreak of hostilities?

3. When was the order to bring the troops on alert in connection with the expected attack by fascist Germany on the morning of 22 June, what were the instructions on how to execute this order and what was done by the troops?

4. Why was most artillery located in training centers?

5. To what extent were the headquarters ready for command and control, and to what extent did this affect the course of operations during the first days of the war?

Answers to these questions were received and summarized.

In 1989, the “Militaryhistorical magazine ”in Nos. 3–5 printed the answers to the first two questions. But further, without any explanation, the publication was interrupted. Why? Presumably, the answers of the generals and officers were contrary to the point of view that Stalin de forbade, did not believe intelligence, etc. I will briefly give some of the answers that became known. Let's say on the second question.

From the wording itself it is clear that the covering troops were to be moved from their positions to the defense lines by an order given in advance. It is known from the memoirs of Marshal Baghramyan that the “order” arrived in the western districts 14 – 15 of June, when, under the guise of exercises, they began to enter part of the cover on the state border.

Colonel-General P. P. Poluboyarov (former chief of the armored forces of the PribOVO): “On June 16, at 23:12, the command of the 23th mechanized corps received a directive to put the formation on alert. The corps commander, Major General N.M. Shestopalov, was informed of this at 17:202 on June 18 upon his arrival from the 19nd motorized division, where he was checking mobilization readiness. On June 20, the corps commander raised the formations and units on a combat alert and ordered them to be withdrawn to the planned areas. This was done during June 16 and 3. On June XNUMX, by order of the district headquarters, the XNUMXrd Mechanized Corps (commander - Major General tank troops A. V. Kurkin), which in the same time was concentrated in the specified area.

Lieutenant-General P.P. Sobennikov (former commander of the 8 Army): “On the morning of June 18, 1941, I went to the frontier zone with the army chief of staff to check the progress of defensive works in the Šiauliai fortified area. Near Siauliai I was overtaken by a passenger car, which soon stopped. From it came Colonel General F. I. Kuznetsov (commander of the Baltic Special District). I also got out of the car and approached him. F. I. Kuznetsov called me aside and excitedly informed me that some German mechanized units were concentrating in Suwalki. He ordered me to immediately withdraw the units to the border, and by the morning of June 19 to place the army headquarters at the command post in 12 kilometers south-west of Šiauliai. The district commander decided to go to Taurage and bring the 11 th rifle corps of Major General MS Shumilov into combat readiness, and I was ordered to go to the right flank of the army. We sent the Chief of Staff of the Army Major General G. A. Larionov back to Jelgava. He received the task to bring the headquarters to the command post. By the end of the day, oral orders were given to concentrate troops at the border. On the morning of June 19, I personally checked the order execution. Parts of 10, 90 and 125 of the rifle divisions were occupied by trenches and wood-earth firing points, although many structures were not yet completely ready. ”

From the response of General Sobennikov clearly shows: Commander PribOVO, Colonel-General Kuznetsov, gives the command to bring the district troops to combat readiness 18 June. “At your own risk”, “on your own initiative”, “contrary to Stalin”? Isn't it funny?

Colonel-General M.S. Shumilov (former commander of the 11 Infantry Corps of the 8 Army): “Corps troops began to occupy the defense on the orders of the army commander from June 18. I gave the order only to the commander of the 125 th Infantry Division and corps units. Other units also received verbal orders through army liaison officers. This corps headquarters was notified. Ammunition was ordered not to issue. It was allowed only to improve the engineering equipment of the defense. However, 20 June, realizing the imminent danger, I ordered to give out ammunition and shells in the units and start mining some areas. 21 June was a member of the district military council (corps commissioner P. A. Dibrova) at the corps headquarters, who, through the chief of staff, ordered the ammunition to be taken away. I asked the army headquarters for a written order on this issue, but I received no answer. ”

Major General I.I. Fadeev (former commander of the 10 Infantry Division of the 8 Army): “On June 19, on June 1941, an order was received from Major General I. F. Nikolayev, commander of the Infantry Corps, to bring the division into combat readiness. All units were immediately withdrawn to the defense area, occupied by bunkers and artillery firing positions. With the dawn, the commanders of the regiments, battalions and companies in the terrain clarified combat missions according to a previously developed plan and brought them to the commanders of platoons and branches. In order to conceal the activities carried out at the border, normal defense works were carried out, and part of the personnel was disguised inside defensive structures, while on full alert. ”

Major General P. I. Abramidze (former commander of the 72 Mountain Division of the 26 Army): “On June 20 of 1941, I received this cipher of the General Staff:“ Take all units and units of your compound located on the border itself back a few kilometers, that is, at the line of prepared positions. Not to respond to any provocations by the German units, as long as they do not violate the state border. All parts of the division must be placed on alert. Execution to bring to the 24 watch 21 June 1941 of the year. " Just in time, I telegraphed to report on the implementation of the order. The commander of the 26 Army, Lieutenant-General F. Ya. Kostenko, who was entrusted with the verification of performance, was present at the report.

All memories with specific dates. And we are being treated with a “duck in Berlin”.

It is worth adding about the famous directive of the Chief of the General Staff from 18 of June on bringing the troops of the western districts into combat readiness. These memories are logically associated with this date. But historians have no directives themselves. Maybe destroyed or lies deep in the archive. But traces of it can be found. In particular, in the criminal case of General Pavlov and other leaders of Zapovo, namely in the minutes of the court session of the military tribunal, where the defendant Grigoriev A.T., the former head of communications of the district, was interrogated: “Member of the court comrade. Orlov. On l. e. 79 4 volume you gave the following testimony: “When leaving Minsk, the commander of the regiment of communications reported to me that the chemical armies department did not allow him to take combat gas masks from the NZ. Artodel of the district did not allow him to take ammunition from the NZ, and the regiment has only a sentry standard for 15 ammunition for a fighter, and the consignment and clothing department did not allow the field kitchens to be taken from the NZ. Thus, even in the afternoon of 18, the content departments of the headquarters were not oriented, that the war was close ... And after the telegram of the Chief of the General Staff from June 18, the district troops were not alerted. ”

Defendant. All this is true ... "

It may be recalled that the Frontier troops were put on the alert and worthily met the enemy, although they had only light rifle weapon. Those 30 minutes that the Nazis took to the destruction of each outpost, turned into many hours of many-day battles with heavy losses. Why did the border guards find themselves in combat readiness, and the troops of the western districts plainly not, only partially? Yes, the border guards were from the department of Beria, and they tried not to emphasize this. But back to the combat readiness of the troops. Maybe the "MIC" will study the question with the answers of the front-line soldiers to the five questions of the General Staff and will complete the publication, which VIZH started in due time, but suddenly stopped?
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/31316
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  1. apro
    apro 10 July 2016 06: 36
    +26
    It was not for nothing that comrade IVStalin said that the winners can and should be judged, the victory over the Germanic European Union cost us too much, and Pavlov’s betrayal put the USSR on the brink of defeat and cost many victims to prevent this. howls and with specific surnames and corpus delicti against the Soviet people.
    1. Pavel1
      Pavel1 10 July 2016 07: 17
      +18
      (corps commissar P. A. Dibrov), who, through the chief of staff, ordered the selection of ammunition.

      I would like to know the fate of this commissioner, was there any investigation into this case?
      It is worth adding about the famous directive of the Chief of the General Staff of June 18 on putting the troops of the western districts on alert. The recited memories are logically related precisely to this date. But historians do not have the directive itself. Maybe destroyed or lies deep in the archive


      does it mean that there was still an order to put on alert? It is necessary for the sake of restoring the truth to seek out this directive so that it would not be in words to understand what orders guided the district commanders. If there was an order, and the district commanders did not fulfill the order, then the conclusion is unequivocal - betrayal or criminal negligence, which would remove all charges from Stalin and restore the true picture on that day.
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 10 July 2016 09: 02
        +5
        Pavel1 RU  Today, 07: 17 ↑
        (corps commissar P. A. Dibrov), who, through the chief of staff, ordered the selection of ammunition
        I would like to know the fate of this commissioner, was there any investigation into this case?


        Pyotr Akimovich Dibrova (1901 — 1971) - Soviet military leader. Member of the Great Patriotic War, member of the Military Council of the North-Western Front, member of the Military Council of the 59 and 2 shock troops of the Volkhov Front, commander of the 145 th infantry division, commandant of Berlin. Major General (1943).

        The order of Lenin
        Order of the Red Banner (1941 year)
        Order of the Red Banner
        Order of the Red Banner
        Order of the Red Banner
        Order of the Patriotic War I degree
        Order of the Patriotic War I degree
        Order of the Red Star
        Medal "In commemoration of the 100 anniversary of the birth of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin" (April 6 1970)
        Medal "For the victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War 1941 — 1945." (9 May 1945)
        Anniversary medal “Twenty Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War 1941 — 1945” (7 on May 1965)
        Medal "Veteran of the Armed Forces of the USSR"
        20th Anniversary Medal of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army
        Medal "30 years of the Soviet Army and Navy."
        Anniversary medal "40 years of the Armed Forces of the USSR"
        Anniversary medal "50 years of the Armed Forces of the USSR" (26 December 1967)
        Medal "For Impeccable Service" I degree
        Badge of the USSR Ministry of Defense “25 Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War”

        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%9F
        %D1%91%D1%82%D1%80_%D0%90%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
        1. Pavel1
          Pavel1 10 July 2016 09: 25
          +4
          Quote: bubalik
          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%9F

          %D1%91%D1%82%D1%80_%D0%90%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87


          then didn’t figure it out with the client ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Idiot
          Idiot 10 July 2016 18: 59
          +4
          Quote: bubalik
          Peter Akimovich Dibrova (1901-1971)


          His hands are up to the elbow in Russian blood. I will never understand why people like him survived.
          1. stas
            stas 10 July 2016 19: 02
            0
            Where is the evidence that your tongue is not in a cesspool machine.
      2. alleksSalut4507
        alleksSalut4507 10 July 2016 15: 34
        +2
        there was an order, look in the archive, read an article on VO, but, unfortunately, I do not remember. and from June 18th.
      3. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 17: 09
        +3
        That is why the arrests in the army began after 1945, which are now attributed to terror by Stalin. Investigations of operations failures began not only for 41 years, but also for the 42nd and 43rd. Judging by the fact that in 1950 in all the camps there were a little less than 3 million (if I am not mistaken 2 million. 863 thousand, this is the largest number from 1923 to 1953) of prisoners, which included criminals, elders, policemen, those of them who were not seen in the executions of civilians with a machine gun received 5 years of camps. For comparison, who does not remember or did not know when Putin became president, he himself said that there are 2 million prisoners in Russia. In 1937, there were 1 thousand prisoners of all stripes. For the entire Stalinist rule, 568 thousand were executed, and this number includes policemen and traitors who were executed by guerrilla court.
        1. oking
          oking 11 July 2016 17: 56
          +1
          Quote: shasherin_pavel
          For the entire Stalinist rule, 683 thousand were executed, and this number includes policemen and traitors who were executed by guerrilla court.

          In 1937-38 alone, 681692 people were shot. Is this "Stalin's rule"?
          From 1930 to 1936 inclusive, 40137 people were shot. Is this "Stalin's rule"?
          This is already 722829 people. From before 1938 did the cops take it? Where did the partisans come from in those days?
          1. Bloodsucker
            Bloodsucker 5 November 2016 23: 54
            +2
            Quote: oking
            Only in 1937-38 681692 people were shot.

            Where does this fake come from? Help to Khrushchev clearly shows the number of repressed and the number of people shot, from 1921 to 1953, where you get the fake digit from, supposedly shot in two years - 681692 people.
            Well then, howl like N. Petrov, on Echo of Moscow that 1500 billion were shot, they will believe you ..
            Quote: oking
            From before 1938 did the cops take it?

            And where did one and a half thousand different rabble linger on the borders of the Union a day?
            And where did they put all kinds of basmachi, abreks and other crime?
            And with what fright, the allegedly innocent people are written a priori into the category of shot people?
            Further, what is REPRESSION?
            It is the right of the State to apply the LAW in relation to those who have violated the same LAW, now they are in prisons in the Russian Federation no less than in 1937, so are REPRESSIONS being carried out now?
            1. bug_1
              bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 07
              +1
              Quote: The Bloodthirster
              It is the right of the State to apply the LAW in relation to those who have violated the same LAW, now they are in prisons in the Russian Federation no less than in 1937, so are REPRESSIONS being carried out now?

              so this is a wise guy ... then introduce the laws of those years and exterminate in the hundreds of thousands .. move in this direction .. write a petition about this ... and we will all see how you will exterminate 300 thousand a year ... well, you can if if you want more ... by the way, there was already one fucking thing ... they called me a sweat ... by the way I studied at the sorbone ... he was a lawyer in the highest degree ... according to the law, a quarter of the population was sentenced to 5 million in 4 years .. .. here is a handsome man !!!
        2. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 03
          0
          Quote: shasherin_pavel
          For all the Stalinist rule 683 thousand were shot

          phrrrrr ..... think ... some miserable 700 thousand. shower .. yes their mustachioed for breakfast ate ....
      4. Idiot
        Idiot 10 July 2016 18: 57
        +7
        Quote: Paul1
        For the sake of restoring the truth, seek out this directive.


        She's gone. All copies were destroyed during the global cleaning of archives in the fifties. The Pokrovsky commission worked precisely with the aim of preparing the trial over the generals guilty of the death of the first and second strategic echelons in 1941. Therefore, they killed Stalin, and then Beria, when they realized that he would not be silent. After March 1953. in the testimony of the generals, dates and specifics began to be absent, and then the commission's work was completely curtailed. The presence of the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army dated 18.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX. in the archives today - this is the basis for the rehabilitation of both Stalin and his apparatus, repressed under Khrushchev. In vain, perhaps Yakovlev, "worked" in the archives ...
        1. AK64
          AK64 10 July 2016 20: 28
          +3
          All copies were destroyed during the global purge of archives in the fifties.


          Ooooooooo ... Strong move. Although funny ....

          Well it is necessary --- five districts and 3 fleets - and everywhere destroyed. And so no trace ...

          What is it - everything turns out, in five districts and eight fleets - all traitors?

          But wait, wait, and there were still border troops who, by the way, were not subordinate to military districts and should also have received this Directive. That is, there are completely traitors ...

          What people just can’t think of, eh?
          1. igor.borov775
            igor.borov775 12 July 2016 07: 29
            +1
            Of course there was a Directive, only no one really knows her. But everyone remembers one article in Pravda, for this number this is the same Directive. There was a warning from the British that there would be an attack on the 18th. In principle, this is the first number for Barbarosa. But the Germans themselves failed to concentrate a huge amount of material and technical means on the new theater of operations. We read not prose but documents. There is something to be learned in the Nuremberg Trials. There, by the way, many documents were voiced.
          2. Bloodsucker
            Bloodsucker 5 November 2016 23: 55
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            What is it - everything turns out, in five districts and eight fleets - all traitors?

            This is called archival cleaning under Khrushchev.
            You will be even more surprised at the cleansing that they have now arranged, that arranged under Yeltsin ..
            1. bug_1
              bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 11
              0


              The bloodsucker ... people are laughing at you ...
    2. free
      free 10 July 2016 08: 40
      +1
      every mistake has a last name!
    3. Mifcada
      Mifcada 10 July 2016 08: 50
      +1
      And why was Pavlov worse than Kirponos or Tymoshenko? And what is the betrayal? Then Comrade Stalin is a traitor? (by the way, he hid in the country in the early days of the war, and when members of the Politburo came to him, he decided that they came to arrest him)
      1. iury.vorgul
        iury.vorgul 10 July 2016 09: 05
        +9
        It is necessary to read Russian historians, not anti-Russian ones.
        1. Beefeater
          Beefeater 10 July 2016 13: 30
          +4
          Quote: iury.vorgul
          It is necessary to read Russian historians, not anti-Russian ones.

          You yourself should try to figure it out based primarily on common sense.
          And it is necessary to read all of ours, and not ours.
        2. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 12
          0
          Quote: iury.vorgul
          It is necessary to read Russian historians, not anti-Russian ones.


          but why?
      2. Serg koma
        Serg koma 10 July 2016 13: 36
        +8
        Quote: Mifkada
        decided that we came to arrest him

        This was Stalin himself in 1941 told? Or in the days of Khrushchev the "memories" of the anti-Stalinists?
      3. alleksSalut4507
        alleksSalut4507 10 July 2016 16: 32
        +7
        Do you believe about the dacha? hid. Listen to the tales of the Khrushchev thaw. not that you read. remember the commander-in-chief Kuznetsov, why the fleet was in combat readiness number 1 before the attack (this was printed before, in the books they wrote, in particular, Panfilov - "50 years in the ranks"), and other districts, except Pavlovsky, too (in ZhZL -K.K. Rokkosovsky). in theory, those members of the palette bureau would be mowed far beyond the threshold, so these are fairy tales. it is a pity that the archives are being closed now. But not one dog can reproach the USSR for starting the Second World War (and therefore all sorts of "seekers of global truth" have not yet reached us. Stalin returned what was lost in the first, and in February, and under Brest, but he did not take the original Pomor lands in Norway, Finland, he did not want the partition of Germany, to which the ASP (Truman) was inclined, which they did later, forming the FRG, and had to act in response. The IVS refused the world revolution, closing the 3rd International, thereby having said that he was not going to impose an ideology on the curiously inventive west. and even such a worthy envious person (during World War II corresponded with B. Mussolini - 2 suitcases of letters copied by Skorzeny), as W. Ch. with the atomic bomb ...
        1. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 17: 55
          +3
          "50 years in the ranks" was written by General Ignatiev, who transferred the tsarist funds to the Soviet government for the purchase of weapons in the First World War. And the funds are not small. The Second World War was certainly not started by Stalin, since it began on September 1, 1939. Stalin declared the war started by Germany against the USSR - the "Great Patriotic War".
      4. shasherin_pavel
        shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 17: 50
        +7
        There is a Kremlin journal of visits to Stalin’s office and there is not a single day of Stalin’s absence. Do not grind nonsense.
        1. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 13
          0
          Quote: shasherin_pavel
          There is a Kremlin journal of visits to Stalin’s office and there is not a single day of Stalin’s absence. Do not grind nonsense.


          falsyuk zroblennaya at Poland ...
      5. Idiot
        Idiot 10 July 2016 22: 52
        +5
        Quote: Mifkada
        And why was Pavlov worse than Kirponos or Tymoshenko? And what is the betrayal? Then Comrade Stalin is a traitor? (by the way, he hid in the country in the early days of the war, and when members of the Politburo came to him, he decided that they came to arrest him)


        You have become a victim of the vile myth of the Khrushchev era. Its author is Mikoyan, who is from Ilyich to Ilyich without a heart attack and paralysis. There is a journal of visits to Stalin’s office, where the time of receiving visitors is scheduled by minute. It is freely available, check out.
        Kirponos and Tymoshenko were the same as Pavlov, you are right. Tymoshenko is even more than Pavlov, because he is guilty of the defeat of the entire Red Army in the initial period of the war. As well as Zhukov. Why they were not shot together with Pavlov is a question of questions. I suppose, because it was impossible to start repressions in the army when the enemy destroys the state. Generals do not like it when people like them are shot in front of their eyes, with no guarantee that they will not become the next. The generals will be shot, who will have time to run over to the Germans, and who will fight? Comrade Stalin did not have Hindenburgs! In my opinion, Pavlov was shot as the most guilty, for the purpose of ostracizing the others and with their own tacit consent. They could not shoot Pavlov without the knowledge of Timoshenko and Zhukov while they held their posts - this was the order in the army. The rest were given to understand: fight, you sons of bitches, there will be no more executions, the homeland is in danger! Tymoshenko and Zhukov were untouchable because for millions of soldiers and officers they personified the country's top military leadership. What moral effect will the army have on the news that its TOP leadership is traitors? How will the army fight, will it trust its other leaders after that? How does German propaganda use it? Stalin was a hostage of the situation and understood this perfectly well. at the first opportunity, convinced of Zhukov's incompetence, he removes him from the post of chief of the General Staff and sends him to the front, out of harm's way. By the way, contrary to the well-established myth about the genius of Zhukov the commander, in reality he NEVER commanded troops on his own. He was either a representative of the Headquarters (that is, nothing, the main thing is to call the Kremlin in time and read the daily summary), or he had a sensible chief of staff who actually controlled everything. Zhukov, in his words, organically hated staff work. Have you seen in the film "At home among strangers, a stranger among friends" a cavalry grunt performed by Shakurov, who suffered in the accounting department? This is Zhukov the commander who made four mistakes in a word of three letters. Tymoshenko himself asked for the front, where he showed himself as an illiterate commander. He killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers, spent the rest of the war on a secondary front and died without leaving a memoir. It is unlikely that he was ashamed, he just knew too much and therefore died a natural death ...
        1. cast iron
          cast iron 5 November 2016 23: 40
          +2
          Zhukov was a highly educated man and a professional in military affairs. Vile slander was also directed at him a ton more.
        2. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 16
          0
          Tymoshenko himself asked for the front, where he proved himself as an illiterate commander. He killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sat until the end of the war on a secondary front and passed away without leaving a memoir. It was unlikely that he was ashamed, he just knew too much and therefore died his death ..


          this one finally can be made of wood .. it just got written and disappeared for a couple of days .. everyone has a heart attack, and this alcoholic cat is pouring his mug in the hayloft into one snout ... it was especially evident after the operation "Fridericus" ....
      6. cast iron
        cast iron 5 November 2016 23: 36
        +1
        How do you prove that Stalin was "hiding" in the country? Incidentally, none of the memoirs of Zhukov, Mikoyan and others mentions this, moreover, on the contrary, numerous meetings and conferences in Stalin's office are described. Moreover, in the journal of meetings at the time of the outbreak of the war, Stalin had several meetings. So you are repeating the vile slander of the "light" magazine. With which I congratulate you.
        1. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 16
          0
          magazine fake!
          1. cast iron
            cast iron 23 December 2016 20: 36
            +1
            A magazine is an official document. And nobody will pay attention to your juvenile ravings.
    4. shasherin_pavel
      shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 16: 59
      +2
      Why is Pavlov only remembered? And Marshal Kulik, who with petty quibbles slowed down the rearmament of the army: he stopped the release of the T-34, did not allow the ZIS-3 to be adopted, slowed down the release of the "RS" "Katyusha". And Mekhlis, who blocked radio communications with his party appeals for many hours each. Why did Zhukov send telegrams to the front from the city telegraph? Because the headquarters radios were all busy with Mekhlis' long hours of encryption. And what did Mehlis do with Crimea?
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 10 July 2016 17: 04
        +2
        I consider it incorrect to blame one Mehlis for the Crimean tragedy ...
      2. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 10 July 2016 19: 55
        +2
        But both Kulik and Mehlis were Stalin's nominees. The figures of the second echelon, who occupied leading positions after the mass repressions in the army, and themselves participated in these repressions.
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 11 July 2016 02: 15
          0
          These nominees were several waves - they were not Stalinist, so the revolution devours their children. lol
      3. Idiot
        Idiot 10 July 2016 22: 58
        0
        Quote: shasherin_pavel
        And what did Mehlis do with Crimea?


        And what did Mehlis do with Crimea? Tell me, please.
      4. The comment was deleted.
    5. disgraced shooter
      disgraced shooter 11 July 2016 02: 55
      +1
      And why is it that Pavel’s traitor? Anyone could be in his place, and it would have turned out how it happened, just Stalin found the main switchman, well, and still in the place with him a bunch of supposedly traitors, although he knew perfectly well that they were nothing they are guilty. They only obeyed his orders, and no one else. Just they were not lucky to be in this situation.
      1. cast iron
        cast iron 5 November 2016 23: 43
        +1
        A year before the Nazi attack, at the military games Zhukov, in the manner of a "blitzkrieg", defeated the completely western group of Pavlov's troops on the strategic map. At the same time, Pavlov did not draw any conclusions and did not make any changes in his strategy of front management, which he paid for. This is called CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. It was for this that the "switchman" Pavlov was shot. And you need to read more historical research, and not indiscriminately carry nonsense from the brain.
      2. bug_1
        bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 20
        0
        Quote: Disgraced Shooter
        And why is it that Pavel’s traitor? Anyone could be in his place, and it would have turned out how it happened, just Stalin found the main switchman, well, and still in the place with him a bunch of supposedly traitors, although he knew perfectly well that they were nothing they are guilty. They only obeyed his orders, and no one else. Just they were not lucky to be in this situation.


        that's it! not only that ... the day before the war, Pavlov was in the author and he was prophesied an awesome future .. all the more so in Spain he proved himself to be a hero and a real, brave, brave and sensible tanker!
    6. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 11 July 2016 18: 12
      +1
      Hi!! The question about this survey is really interesting. Everyone mixed in this opus, and here on June 18th. There clearly stood the question of June 21 and the Directive of the General Staff of the USSR. An article was worked out badly. Separately, it is necessary to consider the actions of the Baltic Region on June 18 and what followed. The answers to these questions were received and published. As it should be from the north to the southernmost border region. The author simply fluently mixed everything and left a lot overboard. This is not right. I am glad that they begin to be interested in those terrible first days. It’s bad that it’s blurred. And I start to examine this issue a little deeper. With the call of 600 thousand junior commanders. Even then, the question arose about lower-level commanders. They were not enough. The documents of that time clearly said the Army could not cope with the task of defending the country. Another call to the Army was followed by the transfer of combined arms armies from Transcaucasia and Siberia. This all happened in peacetime. The trains drove at night without attracting attention. During the day, they settled at the deaf stations. The war began and the trains were dragged to the places of arrival. There was one more moment the border cover units were brought up to full-time personnel. The recruited youth accounted for almost 40% of the units. The knocking-out and training was planned specifically for the summer exercises. You begin to understand the answers to these questions How these cover divisions with scanty ammunition and food entered the battle. The answers were the real truth. If you start writing about such things you need to be correct and clearly write where and what. With respect
  2. Koshak
    Koshak 10 July 2016 07: 04
    +3
    Yes, there should be as few "white spots" as possible. Knowing history is not only our right, but also our duty.
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 07: 40
      +1
      Koshak, there is no need to throw slogans that everyone knows.
  3. stas
    stas 10 July 2016 07: 14
    +2
    The author Kharkov undertook to write about what he understands little of.
    Almost all of Europe, led by Germany, opposed us.
    In history, such a large-scale war as against the USSR did not exist and will never happen.
    There was no necessary experience. The war was to destroy the USSR and the country's population.

    The main thing is that we won. After such a defeat in the initial stage of the war, no other state in the world could have defeated, as the USSR had done, until the enemy was completely and unconditionally surrendered.
    What was and was, you can’t change anything. But Russophobes are trying to rewrite history in order to denigrate the USSR and belittle our Victory in the 1945 year.
    1. apro
      apro 10 July 2016 07: 23
      +8
      Normally, the author set forth his point of view, if not for the betrayal of Pavlov and others like him, not the Kiev boiler or the blockade of Leningrad.
      1. stas
        stas 10 July 2016 07: 29
        +2
        In a military court, Pavlov was charged with treason.
        Negligence was not only Pavlova.
        1. Kos_kalinki9
          Kos_kalinki9 10 July 2016 07: 42
          +2
          And how many lives did this "negligence" cost?
          1. stas
            stas 10 July 2016 08: 25
            -1
            Do not ask silly questions that already have answers.
        2. free
          free 10 July 2016 08: 41
          +3
          such negligence is akin to betrayal!
          1. AK64
            AK64 10 July 2016 09: 34
            0
            such negligence is akin to betrayal!

            There was no "negligence"!

            Nobody saw these "telegrams from the 18th" - that's a fact.

            You think: at the highest level, a telegram left the Commissariat of Defense. Do you think it should be fixed somehow?
            Further, this telegram was received at the headquarters of five districts and two fleets. Do you think they should have fixed it somehow? Or did they get it in the ballot box? In fact, everything incoming is fixed.
            Further, the headquarters of the five districts and two fleets should have developed a vigorous activity by sending orders to corps and divisions --- and all this should have been recorded in the "outgoing" and "incoming".

            So - for some reason, none of this not found and not presented.

            Think about why and conclude.

            Well, about Pavlov: there was no negligence or incompetence: Pavlov at that time was the only one who corresponded to the position. On satisfactory, but consistent. Neither Kuznetsov nor Kirponos did not meet the positions (for whatever reason, the same Kuznetsov was removed .... meet)
            1. Rust0626
              Rust0626 10 July 2016 15: 45
              -1
              For a telegram plus, if there had been, then after the war, many would have sat down.
            2. shasherin_pavel
              shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 18: 05
              +4
              When Khrushchev came to power, six trucks were burned from the archive.
            3. Idiot
              Idiot 10 July 2016 23: 04
              0
              Quote: AK64
              Think about why and conclude.


              If you thought with your head, and not just ate there, then reading comments on VO would be more interesting ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Pavel1
          Pavel1 10 July 2016 10: 23
          +7
          Quote: stas
          In a military court, Pavlov was charged with treason.
          Negligence was not only Pavlova.


          Nikita, what is it? Well, a hand washes a hand ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 10 July 2016 19: 58
            0
            No, on the orders of Stalin, Pavlov withdrew all charges of treason and betrayal. This is a well-known fact. Pavlov was not convicted of political articles; he was not executed for treason.
          3. Idiot
            Idiot 10 July 2016 23: 07
            +1
            Either Misha or Borya justified him. Each other is worth it.
        4. ava09
          ava09 10 July 2016 11: 27
          +5
          Didn't Khrushchev arrange "military court"? And how is "criminal negligence that led to the death of a large number of people" different from betrayal? I agree on one thing - not only Pavlova, many Trotskyists - the enemies of the people were not finished off.
        5. Beefeater
          Beefeater 10 July 2016 13: 33
          +2
          Quote: stas
          In a military court, Pavlov was charged with treason.
          Negligence was not only Pavlova.

          But I’m not so sure about the removal of the charge of betrayal. Why do you deny this option? The military opposition was in both Germany and the USSR
          1. stas
            stas 10 July 2016 13: 48
            -2
            There is a decision of the RF Armed Forces military college.
        6. shasherin_pavel
          shasherin_pavel 10 July 2016 18: 03
          +5
          There was a prison "Orlovskaya" during the tsarist era. There, all the arrested prisoners who arrived were beaten in the first minute so that more than 10% of those arrested died from the beatings; on the second day, up to 20% of those who were admitted died from the effects of the beating on the first day. People were beaten to death every day. During these beatings, the prison priest was present, who served the funeral service for the tortured. After the revolution, after two years of judicial investigation, all the jailers were shot, Khrushchev declared them all victims of the "Stalinist repressions" and granted amnesty. "The moral of that fable is this" - when there are not enough victims of repression, it is necessary to bleach the real criminals. And after rehabilitation, he sent many Bendera residents to the party and sent them to leading positions in Ukraine. So do not really believe in rehabilitation.
          1. Sergej1972
            Sergej1972 10 July 2016 20: 10
            -1
            There was no such prison in tsarist times.
        7. Idiot
          Idiot 10 July 2016 23: 03
          +1
          Quote: stas
          In a military court, Pavlov was charged with treason.
          Negligence was not only Pavlova.


          As far as I remember, the general prosecutor's office (or the military, if there is one, also general) acquitted the traitor Pavlov during the period of global democratization of society and universal pluralism. They would have justified Himmler, but there was no order. The prosecutor’s office is like that. Pyotr Alekseevich generally forbade prosecutors to pay wages, for this cattle would feed itself ...
    2. Pavel1
      Pavel1 10 July 2016 07: 27
      +7
      Quote: stas
      The author Kharkov undertook to write about what he understands little of.
      Almost all of Europe, led by Germany, opposed us.

      Quote: stas
      The main thing is that we won.


      for people like you, the main thing is to mix everything together, now it’s not our victory that is being discussed, the author is trying to figure out the reasons for the terrible defeat of the first days of the war and has already felt the main thing is the failure to comply with the General Staff directive on putting armies on alert. But the scale of this phenomenon must be investigated further.
      1. stas
        stas 10 July 2016 07: 33
        -4
        The author has not written anything new. And conclusions from that failure have long been made.
        1. Kos_kalinki9
          Kos_kalinki9 10 July 2016 07: 49
          +1
          stas RU

          You just rebuked
          Koshak, there is no need to throw slogans that everyone knows.

          pronounce common truths yourself
          The author has not written anything new. And conclusions from that failure have long been made.
      2. stas
        stas 10 July 2016 08: 11
        +4
        On the Russophobic and vilified ECHO of Moscow, the program "The Price of Victory" was broadcast for a long time, where liberals and Jews who hated Stalin tried, under various pretexts, to slander the USSR, incl. based on the initial failure of the war.
        There, Rezun was a revered connoisseur, and some here also use the techniques of this Judah.
        We want to know what to slander.

        Everything has long been known. The main thing is that we won.
        1. Idiot
          Idiot 10 July 2016 23: 34
          0
          Yes, you leave the Jews alone, among your liberals enough ...
        2. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 34
          0
          Quote: stas
          Everything has long been known. The main thing is that we won.


          yeah they heard ... but we won’t stand for the price ... that’s why there is no red-bellied faith! they do not stand behind the price, whatever it may be ....
      3. stas
        stas 10 July 2016 08: 20
        -5
        Paul 1, well, as Rezun puts it, but he is a traitor and Judas.

        In the East they say that a bad person, even in his own .One will be a stick.
        1. Pavel1
          Pavel1 10 July 2016 09: 22
          -2
          Quote: stas
          Paul 1, well, as Rezun puts it, but he is a traitor and Judas.


          you are just a chatterbox, so a grassroots pawn in the ranks of the guardians of the information war, you can already get an idea of ​​you at one post.
          there is too much shit in your posts, which is already clear from the very beginning of the conversation. Regarding the fact that they say so in the east, your next highs in the east do not say that, you just put it ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
    3. rumatam
      rumatam 10 July 2016 07: 41
      +4
      And at what cost did you win? How do you like magnificent phrases .... Almost all of Europe, led by Germany, opposed us.
      1. Idiot
        Idiot 10 July 2016 23: 36
        +1
        Quote: rumatam
        And at what cost did you win? How do you like magnificent phrases .... Almost all of Europe, led by Germany, opposed us.


        Our price is calculated almost to the last person, the Germans are still looking for two million in the missing. In general, we killed them at the front more than just two million.
    4. tatra
      tatra 10 July 2016 07: 42
      +6
      After the anti-Soviet coup in the USSR in 1985-1991, the enemies of the communists on the territory of the USSR, in the former socialist countries of Eastern Europe, in the West, united to take away the well-deserved Victory from the Soviet people, give it to the Americans, and smear Hitler, Germans and other Europeans , as part of the Hitlerite coalition who attacked the USSR, and 26 million Soviet people killed by them, to throw in the "victims of Stalin."
    5. Boris55
      Boris55 10 July 2016 07: 57
      +4
      Quote: stas
      The author Kharkov undertook to write about what he understands little of.

      In Stalin's toast "To the Russian people" he eats these words: "... Our government had a lot of mistakes, we had moments of desperate situation in 1941-42, when our army retreated, left our native villages and cities of Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, the Leningrad region, the Karelian-Finnish Republic, left because there was no other way out. Some other people could say: you did not live up to our hopes, we will set up another government that will make peace with Germany and provide us with peace. It could happen, keep in mind..."

      What "mistakes" and what people did Comrade Stalin ready to make peace with Hitler?
      By the way, this issue has not been resolved so far. Maybe that's why the current fifth column is so boring?

    6. lel
      lel 10 July 2016 13: 07
      +2
      Well, we had no less troops .... and about the experience in vain, so-khalkhin-goal and the Finnish one was ... and they were preparing for the war, about the figure on June 22 at headquarters they knew back in the spring from the zorge in May it was confirmed by the "red chapel" ... there was negligence (where from her), the loss of communication and interaction too, as a result of confusion, encirclement ... the German mechanized corps were stitching our territory, there was no united front ... any fighter going out on the carpet hopes to win and he knows that a fight is inevitable ... but ... there are many but ...
      1. Igor V
        Igor V 10 July 2016 14: 14
        +3
        What about the number of troops you came up with? And if a united front did not exist, then why didn’t the Germans occupy Moscow and Leningrad?
        1. lel
          lel 10 July 2016 16: 09
          0
          Well, tell us about the front line in July-August 41 years .... from north to south, what cities it went through and where does Moscow to the beginning of the war, did you read 5 questions ???
          1. Idiot
            Idiot 11 July 2016 00: 12
            +2
            Quote: lel
            Well, tell us about the front line in July-August 41 years .... from north to south, what cities it went through and where does Moscow to the beginning of the war, did you read 5 questions ???


            Actually, I could do this and even attach the appropriate cards, where I would draw with a red felt-tip pen (or what color do you prefer?) Specially for your better perception of the cartographic solution. But is there really a shortage of information on this topic. Do not read books on paper, type in a search engine (or say Ok, Google, a map of the eastern front for July-August forty-first) and you will be happy ...
      2. Idiot
        Idiot 11 July 2016 00: 06
        +2
        Quote: lel
        Well, we had no less troops .... and about the experience in vain, so-khalkhin-goal and the Finnish one was ... and they were preparing for the war, about the figure on June 22 at headquarters they knew back in the spring from the zorge in May it was confirmed by the "red chapel" ... there was negligence (where from her), the loss of communication and interaction too, as a result of confusion, encirclement ... the German mechanized corps were stitching our territory, there was no united front ... any fighter going out on the carpet hopes to win and he knows that a fight is inevitable ... but ... there are many but ...


        Population of the USSR on 22.06.1941/200/400 was about 22 million people., the population of the Third Reich with the occupied territories and military-political allies - more than 22 million people ... About Sorge and June 23.06.1941, please do not write any more. Sorge was a defector, i.e. he did not return to Moscow, ignoring the Center's challenge after the failure of his foreign residency. In this case, in order to avoid possible exposure and recruitment by the enemy, all agents are either recalled for verification, or frozen if there is a possibility of avoiding failure. He refused, citing the impossibility of returning at this time. Accordingly, they no longer believed him, funding was stopped, one might say, put an end to him. In addition, there was information that he was a double agent (after all, a German, a friend of Haushofer), and maybe a triple agent (this also happens). And now information begins to flow from Sorge. Imagine that you are Beria, the head of foreign intelligence at that time and a deep professional intelligence officer, who he was undoubtedly. How do you feel about such a source? Will you believe him? Since it is customary to check any information from several sources, and there is no superfluous information, Beria decided to accept and analyze the information from the Sorge group, but not to draw far-reaching conclusions on it. And so, on the eve of the war, our intelligence comes to the conclusion that the Germans will attack between 1941 and 1944. There is a lot of information, but before that the war was predicted in May and at the beginning and in the middle of June. Then the Germans did not attack. This time the information was confirmed and Sorge was ONE OF THOSE (and not the only one) who turned out to be right. They began to listen to him, also because we had insufficient operational positions in Japan. There is a version that it was Sorge who warned about Japan's turn to the south. We removed our divisions from the East and won at Moscow. Perhaps it was so, but for some reason since the arrest of Sorge in XNUMX. before his execution in XNUMX. our intelligence made no attempt to free him. I don't know why, I have no information. But I know that the cult of Sorge began in our country under Khrushchev, when he saw the film "Who are you, Doctor Sorge?" As they say, draw your own conclusions ...
        1. bug_1
          bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 41
          0
          the population of the Third Reich with the occupied territories and military-political allies - more than 400 million people.


          so what? and we and the alliance are more than a billion ..! and that a juggler .. the entire population of these countries, without exception called in the Wehrmacht? you're just yap and provocateur or ...
    7. oking
      oking 10 July 2016 13: 32
      +1
      After the defeat of France and until 01.10.41/3/XNUMX in Europe there were XNUMX real centers of power:
      1. This is Britain. Let me remind you that until 2MB it was the leading state in the world. After the start of WW2, Iceland was occupied by it. Outside Europe, the whole world stood on the side of the Britons, with the exception of Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, and some neutral states.
      2. This is part of continental Europe, the Axis countries and their satellites - Germany, Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and Romania. Finland in the war against the USSR acted on the side of the Axis countries, but their number was not completely included. In Bulgaria everything was exactly the same, but only in relation to the Anglo-Saxons. Some of the states and territories were annexed by these countries, and in fact also included in this axis (Austria, as well as Alsace and Lorraine). Some countries were occupied by the Axis countries (Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Albania, the Czech Republic, part of Yugoslavia, France and Poland) and, one way or another, worked for Germany with allies. Outside this center of power, only Japan stood on the side of the Axis.
      3. This is the USSR. Yes, when dividing eastern Europe, he acted along with Germany, according to the agreements between them. But he was not among the Axis countries and their satellites, because temporary partnerships (not allies) took place. Outside of Europe, this center of power did not have any support except Mongolia and Tuva. However, nominally, based on the amount of weapons he had, it was the most prepared participant for the war. Moreover, the industry of the USSR was so militarized that it automatically put him among the most trained participants in the square. But there was one snag, the USSR was not able to wage a long and full-scale war on its territory. For this, he had no resources, and above all food. Therefore, either "little blood and on foreign territory", i.e. full blitzkrieg Soviet style. Or a small local war.
      Plus, part of the European countries was neutral. It is part of France (Vichy), Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Turkey.
      The war between the second and third centers of power, which began on 22.06.41, ended in complete defeat and destruction of the latter. And 01.10.41. this center of power has officially ceased to exist. The USSR, as an independent center of power, surrendered to the Anglo-Saxons without a war (in the process of accepting the surrender of the USSR on 29.09-01.10.41, officially neutral Yankees also participated). This surrender, called "joining the anti-Hitler coalition" (in whose role, of course, was not advertised) took place on conditions much more acceptable for Dzhugashvili and his gang (in the USSR then it was called the word "Soviet state") than could be expected from the Germans ...
      Those. Dzhugashvili did exactly the same thing for which Lenin defamed Kerensky in his time. Only in 1917. the Bolsheviks widely "informed the population" that "this is an imperialist war for the interests of world capital." And in the fall of 1941. The renegade Bolsheviks (Stalinists) modestly kept silent about the same. Those. they once again simply deceived the population of the USSR. Moreover, some believe their fables to this day.
      After 01.10.41. the war, which began on 22.06.41, acquired a completely different meaning and significance. And in it it is necessary to very clearly distinguish between the concepts of "won" and "won". And also to clearly separate the interests of the "Soviet state" from the interests of the rest of the population of the USSR. And most importantly, no individual, outside the "anti-Hitler coalition", "our Victory" after 01.10.41. could no longer be. How many times do not conjure on this topic.
      1. MCMLX
        MCMLX 10 July 2016 13: 46
        +9
        KASHMAR.
        You have your own alternative story there in Transoceania.
        Stay in it. Do not touch us with your historical discoveries.
      2. Idiot
        Idiot 11 July 2016 01: 05
        +2
        Quote: oking
        1. This is Britain. Let me remind you that until 2MB it was the leading state in the world. After the start of WW2, Iceland was occupied by it. Outside Europe, the whole world stood on the side of the Britons, with the exception of Japan, Mongolia, Tuva, and some neutral states.


        And the USA before 2MB did not lead anyone anywhere in the world? Isn’t the USA occupied Iceland (I like this word)? And where was such a state after the start of 2MB - Tuva? If states are neutral, then they, by definition, are not in favor of anyone.

        2. This is part of continental Europe, the Axis countries and their satellites - Germany, Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and Romania. Finland in the war against the USSR acted on the side of the Axis countries, but their number was not completely included. In Bulgaria everything was exactly the same, but only in relation to the Anglo-Saxons. Some of the states and territories were annexed by these countries, and in fact also included in this axis (Austria, as well as Alsace and Lorraine). Some countries were occupied by the Axis countries (Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Albania, the Czech Republic, part of Yugoslavia, France and Poland) and, one way or another, worked for Germany with allies. Outside this center of power, only Japan stood on the side of the Axis.

        It's easier to say: the Axis countries in Europe (Germany and Italy) with satellites, with the exception of neutral Switzerland, Sweden (Sweden supplied ore to Germany, and Switzerland worked as the Reich's purse) and Portugal (sat under the table throughout the war), Turkey. As if an ally - Spain (the rabble gathered in the "Blue Division") and a serious ally - Finland (apparently, the Negro teacher did not tell about the Winter War of 1939-1940). Austria, Alsace with Lorraine, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, part of France and Poland were occupied (I like this word) Germany alone, but Albania - yes, Italy. I didn't understand anything about Bulgaria. How was she, being at war with the USSR since 1941, in the sphere of influence of the Anglo-Saxons? Everything is clear about Japan. Not bad for an American, he knows Japan was Germany's ally.

        3. This is the USSR. Yes, when dividing eastern Europe, he acted along with Germany, according to the agreements between them. But he was not among the Axis countries and their satellites, because temporary partnerships (not allies) took place. Outside of Europe, this center of power did not have any support except Mongolia and Tuva. However, nominally, based on the amount of weapons he had, it was the most prepared participant for the war. Moreover, the industry of the USSR was so militarized that it automatically put him among the most trained participants in the square. But there was one snag, the USSR was not able to wage a long and full-scale war on its territory. For this, he had no resources, and above all food. Therefore, either "little blood and on foreign territory", i.e. full blitzkrieg Soviet style. Or a small local war.
        Plus, part of the European countries was neutral. It is part of France (Vichy), Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Turkey.

        About Munich, non-aggression pacts concluded with Germany, England, France, the American Poshy knows nothing and we will not say anything to him, suddenly his brain will explode. We will not talk about the partition of Czechoslovakia between Germany and Poland, for the same reason. They know about the accession to the USSR of the territories of the Russian Empire, neighbors chopped off during our weakness by neighbors (nothing superfluous, national interests, according to Churchill) in America. Apparently they don’t know the history of Texas and Florida joining the USA, but oh well. I was glad that we had only partnerships with the Reich and what I found out whose ally was Mongolia and the mysterious Tuva.
      3. Idiot
        Idiot 11 July 2016 01: 11
        +1
        [quote = oking] The war between the second and third centers of power, which began on 22.06.41, ended in complete defeat and destruction of the latter. And 01.10.41. this center of power has officially ceased to exist. The USSR, as an independent center of power, surrendered to the Anglo-Saxons without a war (in the process of accepting the surrender of the USSR on 29.09-01.10.41, officially neutral Yankees also participated). This surrender, called "joining the anti-Hitler coalition" (in whose role, of course, was not advertised) took place on conditions much more acceptable for Dzhugashvili and his gang (in the USSR then it was called the word "Soviet state") than could be expected from the Germans ...
        Those. Dzhugashvili did exactly the same thing for which Lenin defamed Kerensky in his time. Only in 1917. the Bolsheviks widely "informed the population" that "this is an imperialist war for the interests of world capital." And in the fall of 1941. The renegade Bolsheviks (Stalinists) modestly kept silent about the same. Those. they once again simply deceived the population of the USSR. Moreover, some believe their fables to this day.
        After 01.10.41. the war, which began on 22.06.41, acquired a completely different meaning and significance. And in it it is necessary to very clearly distinguish between the concepts of "won" and "won". And also to clearly separate the interests of the "Soviet state" from the interests of the rest of the population of the USSR. And most importantly, no individual, outside the "anti-Hitler coalition", "our Victory" after 01.10.41. could no longer be. How many times do not conjure on this topic. [/ Quo

        Here it is, an understanding of the virtual world of the average statistical American: he means that after the signing of the first Soviet-American protocol on Lend-Lease, Stalin merged the USSR, Alleluia, America! Hitler’s hordes rolled west as soon as Hitler found out about this event, and then blah blah blah. In general, tired of commenting on this nonsense ...
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 11 July 2016 04: 09
          +4
          It is incomprehensible ... it seems like Hitler nurtured by America attacked, and Stalin is guilty, who did not capitulate either to him or to any Anglo-Saxons. Do not waste time on this demshiza.
    8. bug_1
      bug_1 22 December 2016 19: 28
      0
      Quote: stas
      Almost all of Europe, led by Germany, opposed us.




      Quote: stas
      There was no necessary experience. The war was to destroy the USSR and the country's population.


      I'm shy to ask why? and what did our generals and soldiers do before that? bast soup cabbage soup chi sho?



      Quote: stas
      The main thing is that we won. After such a defeat in the initial stage of the war, no other state in the world could have defeated, as the USSR had done, until the enemy was completely and unconditionally surrendered.


      Do you know that at 42 you wanted to make a mustached separate world? and only the fucking allies hardly discouraged him from this!


      Quote: stas
      What was and was, you can’t change anything. But Russophobes are trying to rewrite history in order to denigrate the USSR and belittle our Victory in the 1945 year.


      I agree .. history does not tolerate the subjunctive .... but nobody is trying to denigrate Victory .. we just have to admit that they themselves would not have survived, that Lend-Lease saved, that it was free, that they threw corpses, that no one counted the militias, that our tanks were Mr. there simply were a lot of them, that collective farms were evil and slavery, and that communism was simply a failed, unsuccessful cannibalistic experiment, which the Jews did with the money of the Germans, who thus brought us out of the WWI and removed our Empire from all Versailles buns! !!!!!!!!!!!!
  4. R-22
    R-22 10 July 2016 07: 20
    +4
    The betrayal ... did not modify the bodies of these scum, although probably only such a situation as the beginning of the war is capable of picking up all (or many) enemies of their own people who are not showing themselves in any way.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 10 July 2016 07: 32
    +4
    Why, then, the border guards were in combat readiness, and the troops of the western districts really not, only partially? ...I guess, yes..
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 07: 44
      +4
      A frontier post is easier and faster to put into combat readiness than a division or army.
      The border guards did not have large military units.
      1. Kos_kalinki9
        Kos_kalinki9 10 July 2016 07: 54
        +1
        Quote: stas
        A frontier post is easier and faster to put into combat readiness than a division or army.
        The border guards did not have large military units.

        Yeah especially when
        the commander of the regiment reported that the chemical forces department did not allow him to take combat gas masks from the NZ. The district artillery department did not allow him to take cartridges from the NZ, and the regiment had only a guard norm of 15 rounds per soldier, and the wardrobe department did not allow to take field kitchens from the NZ.
        и
        On June 21, a member of the district military council (corps commissar P. A. Dibrov) was at the headquarters of the corps, who, through the chief of staff, ordered the selection of ammunition.
        1. stas
          stas 10 July 2016 08: 15
          0
          Which corps in the border troops in the 1941 year are you talking about?
          1. Kos_kalinki9
            Kos_kalinki9 10 July 2016 08: 57
            0
            Did you read the article, or how, dear?
            1. stas
              stas 10 July 2016 10: 21
              0
              And who established that, Kharkov is the ultimate truth.
  6. rumatam
    rumatam 10 July 2016 07: 39
    -1
    You read the current statements, with all due respect to these generals and all as one did everything and knew. But for some reason they went to Moscow, probably to spite Stalin. It is necessary to analyze, but the main reason is clear Russian Avos.
  7. oracul
    oracul 10 July 2016 07: 52
    +6
    I think that blaming Pavlov for direct betrayal is hardly justified. But the fact that he was clearly not in place of the district commander in terms of his level of training shows a lot. And then, there were other people nearby who probably had a hand in what happened. Do not forget that the Belorussian district was the direction of the main blow of the Nazis and they made a lot of efforts to weaken it, using their intelligence, saboteurs, and finally, as it is fashionable to say, agents of influence. I can only assume that the concentration of the latter in the district is possible, was very high at some important levels, for example, providing ammunition, communications, etc. This is indirectly indicated by the fact that in other areas the Germans met more stubborn resistance.
    1. AK64
      AK64 10 July 2016 09: 26
      -6
      I think that blaming Pavlov for direct betrayal is hardly justified. But the fact that he was clearly not in the place of the commander of the district in his level of training shows a lot.


      A child, Pavlov was the only one of the three district commanders who was in his place. The only one. Of the three.

      Enough to retell these Zhukovsky tales!
      Zhukov, at the post of Nach. GS, completely failed preparation for the war. He failed so much that even the command center of the Headquarters was not organized. What did he do before the war? It seems only to women - the armchair was torn off, seized upon the sweet.

      I can only guess

      So, there is no need to "presume" - you have to study, study and study.
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 10 July 2016 17: 12
        +2
        Dear, I read your comments many times, and caught myself thinking, everything is insanely bad, everything is black, Zhukov is a traitor-Trotskyist, Tymoshenko is a wimp, and so on, Pavlov alone is professional, yeah ... only professional, but I would like to know, but something bright, do you have anything to say, who, in your opinion, was good in the Red Army during the war? And you yourself have or had at least something to do with the army or other power structures, do you have a historical background, for example, and did you work Are you in the archives of different levels and departments? Thanks in advance for the answers
      2. Idiot
        Idiot 11 July 2016 01: 41
        +2
        Quote: AK64
        A child, Pavlov was the only one of the three district commanders who was in his place. The only one. Of the three.



        Let's figure it out: Kuznetsov. 22.06.1941/8/11 disappeared from the field of view of the General Staff of the Red Army. He left for the troops and disappeared, in fact he removed himself from the command of the front. He appeared a week later, after a painful exit from the encirclement (he waited in the woods until Stalin had time for him). During this time, the 2th and 300th armies rolled back to Tallinn and the approaches to Luga. The front is commanded from Headquarters by Voroshilov, to whom Stalin asks the question: does it seem to him that the front is being deliberately destroyed? They said about Pavlov above - the same picture: self-removal from command, the collapse of the front, the direction of mobile formations to nowhere, senseless five-hundred-kilometer marches, during which half of the vehicles were stupidly lost. The final is known. Kirponos: he commands the most powerful front, due to the main focus of the Wehrmacht on Minsk and Leningrad, until the Germans reach Kiev, he is relatively coping. Then comes the collapse. Instead of destroying the still weak 000TA formations, which had outlined the encirclement of the Kiev grouping east of Lokhvitsa, it removes itself from command of the front. Headquarters representative Budyonny (not Zhukov) proposes to withdraw troops to the Dnieper defense line, thereby surrendering Kiev. But then it will be possible to avoid encirclement (XNUMX men) and thereby create the danger of a flank attack on Army Group Center. Stalin agrees, offers Kirponos a plan of withdrawal. And here Kirponos declares that he tirelessly leads the troops, he had no plans to withdraw beyond the Dnieper and, moreover, to surrender Kiev. This is, like, Budyonny coward and alarmist. The rate is confused. Baghramyan flies to Kirponos with an ORAL order from Timoshenko to withdraw the army to the east. Kirponos refuses to obey until there is a WRITTEN order. A day later, he agrees to withdraw the troops, but it's too late. The Germans strengthened, pulled up the infantry and struck a blow, cutting through the army of Kirponos. Kirponos's activity instantly disappears somewhere, he again withdraws himself from command, the order "save who can" is brought to the army. The commander himself, with the detachment shrinking like shagreen leather, drifts towards the Germans, straight into captivity. Finally Kirponos dies. Either from a German bullet, or from a Soviet one. History is silent. So where did you see less or more worthy commanders? For me, so all one gang-watering can. And they are headed by Timoshenko and Zhukov ...
    2. alicante11
      alicante11 10 July 2016 09: 46
      0
      I think that blaming Pavlov for direct betrayal is hardly justified.


      Yes, there was no betrayal. It's just arrogance and excessive independence. Muzychenko commander-6 is an analogue of the lower rank. Some comrades accused him of treason, too. They say that the 4th MK kept it with him, did not allow him to participate in the counterstrike, failed the defense on the old border, left the encirclement in the wrong direction. But in general, all of Muzychenko's actions are justified from a military point of view. If you look at the interests of his army. The same 4th MK allowed the 6th A to retreat in order for a long time, preventing the attempts to break through the Nazis with private counterattacks. There were reasons for the rest of his actions. Also Pavlov. Well, he did not believe, to see that Germany will decide. Tired of "standing with a rifle at my feet, I wanted to relax." So I relaxed. And then 2 TGs fell on him instead of one "according to plan". Here is the result. If 2 TGs had hit against the SWF, Kirponos would have been tried.
      1. Pavel1
        Pavel1 10 July 2016 09: 53
        +2
        Quote: alicante11
        Akzhe and Pavlov. Well, he did not believe, to see that Germany would decide


        what nonsense you write, do not believe that Germany decides not to believe it, Germany moved the million-strong group close to the borders and this was reported by the front-line intelligence two weeks before the start of the war, so you need to be a complete fool to avoid seeing it or worse, that Pavlov was charged in court ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. alicante11
          alicante11 10 July 2016 11: 43
          +1
          Trite. Remember how many times the Germans postponed the attack, when "wolves" are constantly shouting, vigilance is dulled.
          And remember that the Anglo-French, ALREADY at war with the Nazis, nevertheless missed a sudden blow in the 40.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 11 July 2016 04: 15
            +1
            SUDDENLY they missed a blow through the Ardennes which were considered impassable. There was no unexpected factor either; counter fights were fought in Belgium and the Netherlands.
      2. AK64
        AK64 10 July 2016 10: 06
        +1
        Just arrogance and excessive independence.

        Is it Pavlov's "arrogance and self-confidence"? And in what way was it expressed?
        Keen seen enough?

        Muzychenko commander-6 is an analogue of a lower wound.

        Child, Muzychenko was still a traitor. Yes Yes.
        Check out the biography of Muzychenka. He, by the way and his friend Ponedelin, were also Trotskyists. Yes Yes. Familiarize yourself with the performance on occasion (it would be more correct to say antics) Ponidelin at a meeting in 1940 - it was something.

        Here, too, some comrades accused him of betrayal.

        I repeat once again: Muzychenko was a traitor in fact. Like his friend Ponedelin. For which both were already shot after the war. And they were both Trotskyists.


        Also Pavlov. Well, he did not believe, to see that Germany will decide. Tired of "standing with a rifle at my feet, I wanted to relax."

        Where exactly did Pavlov "relax"? Again fairy tales about "wedding in a robin"?

        Why did the troops of the "relaxed Pavlov" more or less successfully defend themselves, while the Germans read ... did not notice the troops of Kuznetsov? That is, in general? They did not notice so much that for some reason they decided that the Soviets decided to leave the Baltic states according to plan. That this was such a plan. Here is such an "unassailable Kuznetsov".
        Or Kirpanos: from the beginning of the war he completely eliminated himself, and was actually furniture. His commissioner, Vyshugin, worked much more and acted more decisively (Of course, Vyshugin lacked education.)

        If 2 TGs hit against SWF,

        This ge could have been: there was hardly enough space for one TGr there.
        1. alicante11
          alicante11 10 July 2016 11: 42
          -1
          Is it Pavlov's "arrogance and self-confidence"? And in what way was it expressed?
          Keen seen enough?
          Where exactly did Pavlov "relax"? Again fairy tales about the "wedding in a robin"?


          Facts, dear comrade, are stubborn things. When some mech units begin to deploy under enemy artillery fire, this means that they were not taken to the rear from the PPD in advance, where they must prepare for counter-attacks, and for the Brest Fortress the attack was sudden. Again, "artillery in parks", aviation at peacetime airfields.

          Child, Muzychenko was still a traitor. Yes Yes.


          Oh guru, I bow to your knowledge, but I remain in my opinion. Can?

          Why did the troops of the "relaxed Pavlov" more or less successfully defend themselves?


          YES? Are you about the Brest Fortress or something? Because there were no more such successes there.


          This ge could have been: there was hardly enough space for one TGr there.


          Damn, dear, this is not even funny. To say nonsense and even with such a seal.
          Are you aware that if the front is short, then battle formations both in defense and in the offensive can be built in several echelons? And the number of troops at the front is not determined by its length. And the bandwidth of its communications. Take already read something besides one book, where "Kirponos has withdrawn himself, Muzychenko is a traitor, and Berlin is taking Pavlov on a white horse." Well, it's ridiculous, by God, isn't it really a shame?
          1. AK64
            AK64 10 July 2016 12: 05
            -2
            Facts, dear comrade, is a stubborn thing. When some mechanized units begin to deploy under enemy artillery fire, this suggests that they were not brought to the rear in advance from the RPM, where they should prepare for counterattacks,

            (1) And where was "taken to the rear"?
            (2) Did Pavlov have the right to "lead to the rear" of anything? So I’ll let you know - I didn’t have it: if Pavlov had passed at least one division without the consent of the General Staff, he would have gone to court. In peacetime, the withdrawal of an entire division from the location is actually already a crime ("and not to the MSC, did you lead the division, bastard?")

            You would figure out who and what has the right to not get confused in the three pines. So, the location and housing of the parts in peacetime - This is the competence of the General Staff only. And right at Kom. constituencies here - only letters to write and coordinate.


            and for the Brest Fortress the attack was sudden.

            It turned out to be equally sudden for everyone, namely everyone. Even the notorious "readiness of the fleet" is nothing more than a fairy tale: in fact, the Germans calmly threw mines at the main base of the Black Sea Fleet (!!!)

            Again, "artillery in parks", aviation at peacetime airfields.

            See above: "know every cricket his six ".
            There will be an order - they will withdraw.

            Oh guru, I bow to your knowledge, but I remain in my opinion. Can?

            Why do not you want to follow the advice and familiarize yourself with the facts?
            Well, here's a summary:
            Muzychenko actually led the army into encirclement. He surrendered, and he “prepared” for surrender: he changed into a Red Army uniform (speaks for itself, doesn't it?). He was dismissed by the Germans (yes, the Germans then dismissed about 100 thousand Ukrainians and about the same number of Balts, namely Ukrainians and Balts, not Russians). And what does the hero do next? Maybe he went east through forests? No, he's ... getting a job! Here someone recognized him and betrayed him - and the Germans again put him in a camp, now for good. In the camp, he lived until the end of the war (about a third of Soviet generals died in captivity, which seems to be hinting).

            By the way, now you will not immediately find this information: say Vicki has already managed to clean up to the Soviet officialdom.

            YES? Are you about the Brest Fortress or something? Because there were no more such successes there.


            You are very seriously mistaken. You should familiarize yourself with the facts and not slander fighters and commanders. But it doesn’t turn out beautifully.
            Say, 2ТГр Guderiana didn’t manage to break through and enter the operational space. (In contrast to Xnumxgr Gotha, which the opposing divisions of the Baltic Military District simply did not even notice)

            Or did Guderian decide not to walk?

            (To be continued)
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 10 July 2016 14: 38
              0
              (1) And where was "taken to the rear"?


              Yes, everywhere, except on the ZF MK, they weren’t hit on the first day.

              And did Pavlov have the right to "lead to the rear" of anything?


              Well, what did these units do in Brest? Who made the plan for covering the border?

              It turned out to be equally sudden for everyone, namely everyone. Even the notorious "readiness of the fleet" is nothing more than a fairy tale: in fact, the Germans calmly threw mines at the main base of the Black Sea Fleet (!!!)


              Naturally, there were no problems like the ZF anymore. For example, on the SWF, the border cover units that entered the battle moved forward to the border on the first day, and did not immediately fall under attack. I will not repeat myself about MK, who entered the battle on the third day.

              See above: "every cricket know your six".
              There will be an order - they will withdraw.


              Come on! Does the GSh even lead the combat training of specific formations? Bravo ... bravo.

              Muzychenko actually led the army into the environment.


              Sorry, but if he wanted, he could have done this more than once before. He was constantly circumvented at junctions with neighbors. What did you expect?

              Surrendered, and "prepared" for surrender: he changed into a Red Army uniform (speaks for itself, doesn't it?)


              And what, it was necessary to put on the ceremonial general's uniform :)?

              He was released by the Germans


              Here, someone identified him and gave him away - and the Germans again put him in a camp, now permanently


              I don’t catch the meaning. Why let go first and then "give out"?


              By the way, now you will not immediately find this information: say Vicki has already managed to clean up to the Soviet officialdom.


              Sorry, but Wiki and Soviet officialdom are incompatible things.

              You should familiarize yourself with the facts and not slander fighters and commanders.


              And what have the fighters and commanders to do with it? They did their duty as they could. Objectively, they could not fight better and defeat, and even more so, their death does not denigrate them in any way.

              Say, 2ТГр Guderiana didn’t manage to break through and enter the operational space. (In contrast to Xnumxgr Gotha, which the opposing divisions of the Baltic Military District simply did not even notice)


              Hmm, and who then closed the ring in Minsk? Guderian broke through just through the construction of the front. Moreover, all and sundry, who remained surrounded, walked on its rear. But Goth struck a junction, as the Fascists liked to do, it is clear that he was moving faster, almost in the void. But they completed their tasks. Boilers on other fronts were much later than on the ZF.
              1. AK64
                AK64 10 July 2016 15: 40
                +1
                So, my answer turned out to be "too long" and disappeared.

                Sorry, but I will not repeat.

                (Admins should have taken measures long ago so that "too long" answers would not be lost!)
            2. Idiot
              Idiot 11 July 2016 01: 48
              +1
              Quote: AK64
              In peacetime, withdrawing an entire division from a location is actually a crime


              You're wrong. Just ONE division in peacetime, the district commander had the right to withdraw where he considered it necessary.
          2. AK64
            AK64 10 July 2016 12: 19
            +2

            This ge could have been: there was hardly enough space for one TGr there.



            Damn, dear, this is not even funny. To say nonsense and even with such a seal.
            Are you aware that if the front is short, then battle formations both in defense and in the offensive can be built in several echelons? And the number of troops at the front is not determined by its length. And the bandwidth of its communications. Take already read something besides one book, where "Kirponos has withdrawn himself, Muzychenko is a traitor, and Berlin is taking Pavlov on a white horse." Well, it's ridiculous, by God, isn't it really a shame?


            First of all, baby, don’t shout like that. And secondly, if you don’t understand something, you just need to ask, not scream.

            There is such a corridor between the Carpathians and the Pripyat swamps, 120-180 km wide (the width varies slightly) and about 180 km long. He is heavily indented in transverse direction by small rivers. The offensive of large masses through the Carpathians or along the Pripyat bodots is impossible.
            That is an ideal defense district.

            The road network there is still not very developed. Railroad there was one branch, and one with a flimsy bandwidth.

            The Germans correctly estimated that 30-35 divisions could only be deployed there; well, they managed to put in 35 divisions - but this is the limit.

            And in the 44th, on the other hand, it was not possible to organize a normal attack through this area: they crossed the corridor immediately, seized the bridgehead at Sandomierz, and ... they could not organize all the supplies. (Although it could have turned out beautifully on paper - well, ravines, then ...)

            You may ask, "why did the Germans attack there at all?" The answer is in German documents (I recommend Halder's diaries, for example, this is his memoir, this is an authentic document.) The task of Army Group South was: to prevent a counterstrike by Soviet troops to the flank-rear of the Center. But only.

            Check it out with the Germans.

            And don’t criticize like that anymore: I also know little, but when I don’t know something, I ask those who know.
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 10 July 2016 14: 52
              +2
              First of all, baby, don’t shout like that. And secondly, if you don’t understand something, you just need to ask, not scream.


              Oh guru, I am only learning from you. Diligently :).

              The road network there is still not very developed. Railroad there was one branch, and one with a flimsy bandwidth.


              Yes, you sho? But the men did not know. Well, take at least a book on the database of the 5 Army. There are painted in sufficient detail communications. And in the bands of other armies, too, there were communications. Take Isaev from Dubno to Rostov. Even if the surname is not like, the communication invoice is the factual invoice. Read Baghramyan before saying such nonsense.

              The answer is in German documents (I recommend Halder's diaries, for example - this is an e-memoir, this is an authentic document.)


              Do not tell me for what number such a record is? And then, maybe I missed something ...
              It always seemed to me that the task of GA South was to surround and destroy Soviet troops in Ukraine and capture Kiev, and not cover the flank of GA Center.

              And in 44, on the other hand, through this area it was not possible to organize a normal attack:


              Did you want to? Maybe they decided to arrange a surprise for the fascists in the Pripyat swamps?

              And don’t criticize like that anymore: I also know little, but when I don’t know something, I ask those who know.


              Yes, no problem, I just repeat your style of communication.
              1. AK64
                AK64 10 July 2016 15: 50
                0
                The road network there is still not very developed. Railroad there was one branch, and one with a flimsy bandwidth.


                Yes, you sho? But the men did not know. Well, take at least a book on the database of the 5 Army. There are painted in sufficient detail communications. And in the bands of other armies, too, there were communications. Take Isaev from Dubno to Rostov. Even if the surname is not like, the communication invoice is the factual invoice. Read Baghramyan before saying such nonsense.

                Did I give you a link to the cards? In rkka.ru?
                Well here are the cards and look.

                The peasants really "did not know": neither the Germans knew how to be supplied, nor the Red Army already in 44 "did not know" - no one managed to be supplied through this passage.
                Apparently, there are fools around. Or you misunderstood what you read. Here is one of two things.

                Do not tell me for what number such a record is? And then, maybe I missed something ...

                I won’t tell you - my copy of the Halder remained ... no matter where - 12 years ago.

                It always seemed to me that the task of GA South was to surround and destroy Soviet troops in Ukraine and capture Kiev, and not cover the flank of GA Center.

                Not flank: flank GA Center well covered Pripyat. The task was to "bind and destroy". They did not set the task of "encircling", let alone "capturing Kiev" (They themselves would have thought - why do they need Kiev on their own? What are they in that Kiev?)

                The task of the South group was largely supportive. That is why in the early versions of the plan of war with the USSR in general, all TGr was considered to be introduced north of Pripyat.

                (If you still do not understand, war by any significant forces in the Pripyat region is impossible - the 1st Belorussian Front in the 44th accomplished a feat.)
              2. AK64
                AK64 10 July 2016 15: 54
                0
                Did you want to? Maybe they decided to arrange a surprise for the fascists in the Pripyat swamps?

                Well, not funny ...

                Yes, no problem, I just repeat your style of communication.

                I told you: I know that I know little, and therefore I am not afraid to ask those who know more.
                If you don’t ask, then do not learn anything.

                I never yelled the word "stupidity" - you confused me with someone.
                If I write that something is ridiculous - then I try and explain why it is ridiculous
  8. DesToeR
    DesToeR 10 July 2016 08: 01
    0
    Quote: rumatam
    It is necessary to analyze, but the main reason is clear Russian Avos.

    Or maybe a conspiracy?
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 08: 29
      +1
      Or maybe Hitler is to blame for that war and the countries of Europe, and the fact that the Fritz were more prepared for the war.
      But conclusions were drawn from this, and at a great price, but the enemy lost no less.
  9. user3970
    user3970 10 July 2016 08: 02
    +4
    And think about why the military archives in Podolsk MO are still closed? Do you really think that General Pavlov was an independent figure? Who was the Minister of War at the start of the war? Tymoshenko? Did he leave his memoirs? who was the chief of the General Staff? To whom did the Pavlov directly report? beetle? Who poured the most shit in his memoirs on his boss after the death of the latter? To whom do Tymoshenko and beetles owe their careers? The first chief of the Red Army Trotsky? Draw conclusions.
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 10 July 2016 10: 20
      +3
      Well, let's say, Timoshenko can presumably be declared a "Trotskyist" as being trained at the political academy. Tolmachev, during the famous "Tolmachev case", but Zhukov in 1924 entered the KUVKKS and was a regiment commander ... What "Trotskyists" ???
      And then they "come" from the 1st Horse. Rather ardent "Budennovists"!
      1. AK64
        AK64 10 July 2016 10: 57
        -1
        And then they "come" from the 1st Horse.


        Zhukov in the 1st Horse did not serve even an hour.
        And in general, his biography of the civil period is very muddy: in his verbose "memoirs" he diligently avoids this question - where he was and what he did in civilian life.
        1. stas
          stas 10 July 2016 12: 55
          0
          AK64, maybe you are scribbling No. 6 from the House.
        2. moskowit
          moskowit 10 July 2016 18: 50
          +2
          He did not serve, did not serve ... Not only not an hour, but not even a second ... And he served in the 1st Moscow Cavalry Division, and then in the 14th Separate Cavalry Brigade, commanded by M.P. Kovalev ... But even that that he was not a "Budyonnovist" does not detract from his merits and in no way characterizes him as a "Trotskyist" ...
          1. AK64
            AK64 10 July 2016 20: 40
            +1
            He didn’t serve, he didn’t serve .. Not only for an hour, but not even for a second ... And he served in the 1st Moscow cavalry division, and then in the 14th Separate cavalry brigade commanded by MP Kovalev ....

            I repeat once again for you: Zhukov’s activity in the civil war is extremely muddy: it’s completely not clear what he was doing.
            But there is also what is known for sure, what he did not hide and what he wrote a lot about is participation in the suppression of the Tambov uprising. And with great reverence he wrote that "I saw Tukhachevsky" - this "I saw Tukhachevsky" sounded like a source of pride.

            Now see for yourself: a person wrote a lot about himself. But at the same time, he wrote extremely and extremely muddy about participation in the civilian, except for Tambovism. What is so? (Moreover, this strange reverence for Tukhach ...)

            But even the fact that he was not a "Budyonnovist" does not detract from his merits and in no way characterizes him as a "Trotskyist" ...

            Khrushchev traktsist? Yes or no?
            So: figure out the relationship of these two (more precisely, even three --- Khrushchev, Hooks and Serov.)
            Once again: it was Zhukov who ensured the arrest of Beria and then the forcible removal of Bulganin and Malenkov.
            Understand this, and then talk about "merit".
    2. lel
      lel 10 July 2016 13: 32
      +2
      Yes, Trotsky was "obliged" to the entire population of the USSR ... according to many sources, it is believed that his excessive activity helped the Bolsheviks win ... and if you go from the opposite (as you are doing), then ALL fighters and commanders of the Red Army should be sent to the camps .. .well they served under his command ... right?
  10. ovod84
    ovod84 10 July 2016 08: 22
    +4
    We need to take into account the experience of that war and prepare for future wars, I think the main opponent is already looming Nutt, led by the United States.
  11. Basil50
    Basil50 10 July 2016 08: 54
    +8
    What happened in June 1941 will never be forgotten, and there will always be questions. After the military coup, the participants in the 1953 conspiracy tried to whitewash themselves and their protege Khrushchev voiced what was required of him.
    The fact that the betrayal was confirmed by the investigation. * The technology * of seizing power was tested by the followers of Trotsky in Spain. Without considering the activities of the Trotskyists in the pre-war period, much is not clear. The fact that the Trotskyists were not independent in their actions and were controlled from abroad did not raise any doubts. Only today it is unlikely * to illuminate * the activities * of the Trotskyists *. I am afraid that soon Trotsky will be recognized as * a democrat * and * a fighter against totalitarianism *, but why not? The seizure of power took place, the distribution of values ​​took place, it remains only to distribute the slaves and determine their number, to serve * the owners * of life. It remains only to advance to the * masses * ideology justifying everything that happened. What are * democrats * doing today without disdaining direct lies.
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 10 July 2016 13: 45
      +4
      An interesting moment about the Trotskyists ...
      In the novel Eternal Call, Colonel Lakhnovsky (Basilashvili), when he is already serving the Germans, in his long tirade in front of his son-in-law, whom they brought, says that they, the Trotskyists, will arrange all future misfortunes for the USSR. Naturally, the Trotskyists are not mentioned in the film.
      Our fathers and grandfathers saw a lot and know a lot, which we do not know 40-50-year-olds.
  12. AK64
    AK64 10 July 2016 09: 20
    +1
    All memories with specific dates. And we are being treated with a “duck in Berlin”.


    One must look not at memoirs but at documents.
    What these people told after the war is completely irrelevant.

    It may be recalled that the Border Troops were put on alert and adequately met the enemy, although they had only small arms. Those 30 minutes that the Nazis took to destroy each outpost turned out to be many hours, many days of battles with heavy losses.

    First border guards are in constant combat readiness - such a service. And secondly, about the "multi-day battles" of border guards ...
    So the price to the author is a storyteller.
    1. lel
      lel 10 July 2016 13: 36
      +3
      in the southern regions, on the Romanian sector, our border guards repelled the attacks and launched a counterattack (as prescribed), occupying the Romanian border towns and villages ... unfortunately I can’t name the source where I read it, but I think rummaging yourself you will find ... why then they retreated -I think it’s clear ...
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 10 July 2016 13: 56
        +2
        lel UA  Today, 13: 36 ↑

        ,,, 79-th Izmail border detachment ,,,
        https://topwar.ru/5206-nkvd-sovetskogo-soyuza-v-nachale-velikoy-voyny.html
        http://maxpark.com/community/14/content/1509203
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Forest ranger17
      Forest ranger17 6 November 2016 23: 32
      +1
      "... And secondly, about the" multi-day battles "of border guards ...
      That's the price for the author - the storyteller ... "- I will answer, like a border guard officer in the past.
      About Lieutenant Lopatin’s border outpost? He was the head of the 13th border outpost of the Vladimir-Volyn detachment. The outpost fought for 11 days!
      In general, here are the border guards: on June 22, 1941, 485 border outposts were attacked by the troops of Nazi Germany.
      All border outposts staunchly defended the areas assigned to them: 257 outposts fought before one day, 20 over one day, 16 more than two days, 20 more than three days, 43 more than four and five days, 4 border posts from seven to nine days outposts, over eleven days - 51, over twelve days - 55, over 15 days - 51 outposts. Up to two months, 45 border outposts fought.
      Yes, the Germans went around and went forward, but the outposts fought. That's what this is all about - multi-day battles!
      But there is one section of the border that the enemies never managed to get through. The twelve outposts of the 82nd Resikentent Frontier Unit of the Murmansk District from June 29 to July 1941 repelled numerous attacks by Finnish units that wedged into the territory of the Soviet Union. On August 9, the enemy was knocked out of Soviet soil. From that day until Finland left the war with the USSR, on September 1944, XNUMX, the state border in the detachment was unbreakable throughout its entire length.

      So, is the author here a "storyteller" about multi-day battles with the Germans (and not only), or are you historically illiterate?
  13. Aleksander
    Aleksander 10 July 2016 10: 42
    +2
    It is worth adding about the famous directive of the Chief of the General Staff from 18 of June on putting the troops of the western districts on alert. The recited memories are logically related precisely to this date. But historians do not have the directive itself. Maybe destroyed or lies deep in the archive. But traces of it can be found. In particular, in the criminal case of General Pavlov

    yes, such a "secrecy", such a "secret directive", but STORIES about the top secret "directive for some reason NOT top secret. Where is the logic?
    So far, only fog and a shadow on the wattle fence, and most likely, stories about what was not there: to justify the defeats and shift the blame from the leadership, they say, everyone indicated, and subordinates let us down. Although everything looks the other way around.
    directive sent from General Staff in eight districts and fleets and .... nowhere preserved, it causes very great doubts about its existence ....
    1. Igor V
      Igor V 10 July 2016 22: 57
      +1
      Here you can quote K.A. Meretskov: “We did not send any written directives, orders or other documents on the preparation of the operation. All orders were given orally and only personally to members of the military councils of the armies and corps commanders who were summoned for this directly to the front headquarters. by the way, this circumstance now partly makes it difficult for military historians to recreate a complete picture of the events from archival materials. It is clear, of course, that at that time I least of all thought about replenishing the archives. I was haunted by other concerns. "
      We are talking about the preparation of Operation Iskra.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. lel
    lel 10 July 2016 12: 54
    +6
    Quote: Mifkada
    And why was Pavlov worse than Kirponos or Tymoshenko? And what is the betrayal? Then Comrade Stalin is a traitor? (by the way, he hid in the country in the early days of the war, and when members of the Politburo came to him, he decided that they came to arrest him)

    do you still believe in the "free" press ??? to doubt have not been taught ???
  16. Cat man null
    Cat man null 10 July 2016 13: 24
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    I will quote the personal message I just received.
    Sender: stas
    Today, 13: 01
    Text:
    Dolboklyuy (censorship) get treated before it's too late.

    In my opinion, the sender is no longer a boor, in my opinion this is fantastic just shit-mo, a scoundrel and just a snitch.

    Comrade bravely anonymously crap in PM? It is very brave, very.

    PS: the administration could also pay attention to the activities of such people. Well, yes, they are classically close to admins

    - not so easy enchanting dolboklyuy laughing
    - Automaticgetting out from behind a black box yes
    - we will discuss fellow
  17. Igor V
    Igor V 10 July 2016 14: 07
    +4
    Quote: AK64
    Odessa OBO and the fleet received minimal losses from the first strike.


    Because it was precisely on them that no one "hit".

    Stupid.
    1. AK64
      AK64 10 July 2016 14: 38
      +1
      Quote: AK64
      Odessa OBO and the fleet received minimal losses from the first strike.



      Because it was precisely on them that no one "hit".


      Stupid.

      Or stupid, or you just do not know.

      The Germans did not try to be strong everywhere. The fleet after 4-00 had more time to organize defense. And so, strongly organized? Backlash calmly dropped bombs on the raid of the main base of the Black Sea Fleet. And what, did someone organize a reaction to them, or maybe they were even shot down post factum? Yes, not at all: both came and went.

      And there were either 6 or 9 airplanes --- something very few.

      The same with the Odessa Military District --- it’s just that nobody was on them. Odessa VO was not in the direction of the strike, and nothing more.

      So it’s either stupid, or you don’t know something. Only.
      1. Igor V
        Igor V 10 July 2016 16: 01
        +5
        The self-confidence of the AK64 is amazing. Of course, I don’t know much, but the fact that at 3.15 on 22.06.41 the Germans raided the main base of the Black Sea Fleet - Sevastopol, I know, but it counts the time differently. And the fact that Libava was subjected to "brutal air attacks" in the amount of 6-9 planes? To argue, as they say, is pointless.
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 10 July 2016 19: 14
        +4
        More than 150 aircraft participated in the raid on Sevastopol. If 6–9 broke through, then they need it, only a few usually broke through Moscow to air defense.
        1. AK64
          AK64 10 July 2016 19: 55
          +1
          More than 150 aircraft participated in the raid on Sevastopol.


          What are you so modest 150?
          Write directly - one and a half million!

          (And where did the Germans only have so many planes, huh? It was necessary to knock out a call-out, half-KOVO to beat out, half-kill-a-bomb, and even to allocate a million sweat to Sevastopol, eh?)
          1. Igor V
            Igor V 10 July 2016 20: 31
            +5
            Quote: AK64
            More than 150 aircraft participated in the raid on Sevastopol.


            What are you so modest 150?
            Write directly - one and a half million!

            (And where did the Germans only have so many planes, huh? It was necessary to knock out a call-out, half-KOVO to beat out, half-kill-a-bomb, and even to allocate a million sweat to Sevastopol, eh?)

            Well, AK64, it turns out that you are an ordinary troll. Go through the forest to study the materiel.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 10 July 2016 22: 30
              +2
              Why should the troll study the materiel? To better troll?
          2. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 10 July 2016 22: 28
            +1
            From there, German industry could release so much, and Sevastopol is the main base of the Black Sea Fleet.
            1. AK64
              AK64 10 July 2016 23: 50
              +1
              From there, German industry could release so much, and Sevastopol is the main base of the Black Sea Fleet.

              Where 150? Where does 150 come from for every Sevastopol? If for Barbarossa everyone fighting 2700 aircraft were allocated, of which bombers, dive bombers - so where did 150 aircraft go to Sevastopol?
              They flew from Romania - so there simply weren’t so many bombers there.

              Everything is known about this raid. The raid on Sevastopol was the force of about 10 aircraft. And the goal was to bombard the base with mines. And they showered it. There were no downed planes. So what kind of "readiness" are we talking about? Calmly flew in, calmly threw - and calmly flew away. Where is "readiness"?

              Well, well, let's assume for a second that 150 (as I said, the protot raid is all known - about a dozen, but let's assume). But where is the "combat readiness", if samoli arrive, throw mines and fly away?
              1. Simpsonian
                Simpsonian 11 July 2016 02: 23
                0
                Sevastopol on the map seems to be the same, like Pearl Harbor.
                where did they get about 2,700 if even 5,638 participated in the French campaign and 2,315 in the Polish one? The Polish armed forces of 1939 were equivalent to the Soviet?
                1. AK64
                  AK64 11 July 2016 08: 58
                  +1
                  where did they get about 2,700 if even 5,638 participated in the French campaign and 2,315 in the Polish one?


                  Let's at least google on the subject of the composition of the Oyuftwaffe for years, eh? At least?

                  For example, only 2500 German aircraft participated in a French company. And this, EMNIP, along with transport. And 2700 at the beginning of Barbarossa is only combat, without transport.
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 11 July 2016 09: 21
                    +3
                    I am surprised by the argument when everything can be found on the Internet. On June 22, Heinkel 111 bombers raided Sevastopol. In an amount of 5 to 9 pieces. The goal was not bombardment, but the dumping of magnetic bottom mines onto the fairway. A couple of mines accidentally fell in the city.

                    Strange are the memoirs about the discovery of aircraft. For analysis, you need to know the range of the detection means (like this was the first combat use of the radar on the Molotov cruiser), the speed of the bombers (about 5-6 km per minute), the time of detection and the time of firing.

                    And then there will be an order of magnitude more questions. But these will already be interesting questions, not bickering over obscure sources.
                    1. Simpsonian
                      Simpsonian 11 July 2016 16: 16
                      0
                      And how many aircraft of other brands were there? It amazes me that it is easily located about 150.
                      1. Bakht
                        Bakht 11 July 2016 16: 45
                        0
                        What other brands? I read that Sevastopol was bombed by Turkish aircraft. Today it is a trend. The entire 4th Air Fleet did not have 500 bombers either. And 150 sent to Sevastopol?
                      2. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 11 July 2016 18: 42
                        0
                        Well, maybe there were still dive bombers, escort fighters?
                      3. Bakht
                        Bakht 12 July 2016 00: 01
                        0
                        They were not there. Dropped bottom mines. All aviation was involved in supporting the ground forces. Several aircraft were allocated to Sevastopol. And this was enough for a headache for the entire time of the war.

                        Well, I’m not a military man, and I understand that at 3 in the night dive bombers plowed the sky over Sevastopol. They probably had guidance systems for jeepies and the radius of action right from the border.
                      4. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 July 2016 03: 57
                        +1
                        Unaccompanied means flew like a kamikaze? bully
                        the light bomb and furrows are dropped as you want
                        until the fairway is wiped and the ships cannot get out, they are trying to destroy them in the parking lots.
                      5. Bakht
                        Bakht 12 July 2016 08: 21
                        0
                        Let's not write unfounded. On the Internet there is a strength of the 4th Luftwaffe Air Fleet. This day is well described. Give links and you can discuss something. While it is known about the mining of the fairway. There were no dive bombers. And there was no fighter escort either. No bombing of ships was noted either.
                        They had the task to block the ships in the bays of Sevastopol, to prevent them from going to sea. The enemy did not succeed. Mines fell not on the fairway, but on the shore. A part fell into the city and exploded there, destroying houses, causing fires and killing people.
                      6. Bakht
                        Bakht 12 July 2016 10: 01
                        0
                        The Luftwaffe headquarters did not provide any special forces for operations on the Black Sea. In fact, the sea and Crimea fell into the range of operations of the 4th Air Fleet, which was led by Colonel General A. Lohr during the entire period under review. The fleet was subordinated to three aviation formations: IV (commander - General of the Air K. Kurt Pflugbeil) and V (Air General R. Ritter von Greim) of the air corps and the German air mission in Romania. The V air corps supported the main attack, inflicted by the 1st Panzer Group through Western Ukraine to Kiev, and therefore did not take part in hostilities over the sea.The IV Corps, together with the Romanian aviation, supported the southern flank of the army group and, if necessary, could allocate part of its aviation for operations over the sea, although initially such a task was not set for him. The corps on 22.6.1941/3/121 included a 27 (F) / 4 reconnaissance squadron, a full squadron KG XNUMX, and a bombing group II / KG XNUMX specializing in mine operationsall bombers in the squadron and group were of the He-111N type), the squadron headquarters squadron JG 77 and fighter groups II, III / JG 77 (on the Bf-109F), I / LG 2 (Bf-109E). The German mission in Romania included the headquarters squadron of the JG 52 squadron and the III / JG 52 fighter group. The main mission of the mission was the air defense of the Ploiesti oil producing area.
                        -----
                        Meanwhile, the He-111 of group II / KG 4 approached Sevastopol at a low altitude. The exact number of planes flying to the city that night is unknown. according to air defense, from five to nine, but it must be taken into account that some of the bombers did not find a target at all because of the dimming. It seems that no less than a squadron, or perhaps the whole group, was involved in this sortie. Its task was not to bombard the ships, which seemed to the Black Sea Fleet command the most probable, but to mine the exit from the Northern Bay. Moreover, not BMP-1000 parachute mines, but LMB parachute mines were used as a combat load. Parachutes unmasked the mine setting, but the bet was made on this - the Russians would be afraid that the harbor was mined and would not try to put their ships out to sea. As we will see later, this plan was partially successful, but that night the Luftwaffe pilots in the sky above Sevastopol did not go as smoothly as they expected. Searchlights suddenly flashed, bright rays began to fumble across the sky. Talked anti-aircraft guns batteries and ships. This light must have illuminated the darkened bay and helped some crews navigate the environment. Others, falling into the rays of searchlights, hurried to dump their cargo, where necessary. On December 04.12, the operational duty officer received a message that one of the planes was shot down by the 59th separate railway anti-aircraft battery and fell off the coast. At 04.13, a fighter barrage began to be on duty over Sevastopol (the 5th squadron of the 32nd IAP under the command of Captain I.S. Lyubimov on I-16), but by then the raid had already actually ended.
                        ---------
                        The exact losses of the Luftwaffe during the barrage operation are unknown, but Soviet air defense insists on the destruction of at least two vehicles - one on the first night and the other on the night of July 4when, according to the observation of a coastal post, one of the aircraft jumped onto a barrage balloon and exploded when it fell into the sea. The German mine installations could have had a much more unpleasant outcome for the Soviet side if Group II / KG 4 had not received orders to relocate to the Baltic in their midst. Even then, the Germans did not have the strength to be equally strong everywhere. By the end of July, the Black Sea Fleet already had electromagnetic trawls, and the crisis associated with the use of bottom mines was forever behind.
                      7. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 July 2016 11: 25
                        0
                        Let's. There are reports that Sevastopol and other main fleet bases were raided by forces of 100-150 aircraft. And before the Internet it was the same.

                        And you just wrote that they all but two fell into the water and this became a headache throughout the war (you might think they were also not dumped later).
                      8. Bakht
                        Bakht 12 July 2016 15: 41
                        +1
                        Here we go. I brought you the memoirs of the People's Commissariat of Fleet Kuznetsov and the study "Air War for Sevastopol 1941-1942". Kuznetsov wrote long before the Internet. The size of the 4th Luftwaffe Fleet has also been known for a long time. Not a single piece of evidence on your part.

                        The believer does not need evidence. If you believe, then I do not want to dissuade you. I just make a note for myself that it makes no sense to seriously consider your writings.

                        PS By the way, note. Kuznetsov writes that the approach of the aircraft was recorded by the posts of VNOS. Sound stations worked for a maximum of 10-15 km. For Heinkel, this is a 2-3 minute flight. And the fire was opened 13-14 minutes after the warning. Inconsistency. But in subsequent studies they write that the approach of the aircraft recorded the radar of the cruiser Molotov. Range up to 150 km. Then everything converges. There are many questions. But to the believer why are they?
                      9. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 12 July 2016 16: 18
                        0
                        This same Kuznetsov (in whose mummies you are looking for inconsistencies), along with air defense officers, also reported on the scale of the raids, and your curves were twisted through the number of the 4th German, only liberoids can intervene there.
                      10. Bakht
                        Bakht 12 July 2016 23: 28
                        +1
                        Internet is a good thing. You can write whatever you want. Unproven. So, we came to the conclusion that up to 10 enemy aircraft participated in the raid on Sevastopol.

                        PS In Kuznetsov’s memoirs there is not a word about the number of aircraft.
                      11. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 13 July 2016 03: 08
                        0
                        Here it is, and also pluralism. Go to whatever "conclusion" you want, for this one is not imprisoned yet.
                        If the new edition is not, then what are you "trying"? And is there that the ships were not in the harbor but in the roadstead?
                      12. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 13 July 2016 02: 04
                        -1
                        Quote: Simpsonian
                        And how many aircraft of other brands were there? It amazes me that it is easily located about 150.

                        Yes hordes, straight hordes. Various unknown aircraft of other types.

                        It's funny, but the Black Sea Fleet was really preparing for a war with Turkey and Romania - and therefore valiant anti-aircraft gunners counted as many 150 Turkish and Romanian aircraft!
                      13. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 13 July 2016 03: 10
                        +1
                        And we certainly believe the star of the liberals more than the glorious Soviet anti-aircraft gunners? Yes, let us mock them?
                      14. Bakht
                        Bakht 13 July 2016 09: 26
                        0
                        I try to reduce the amount of lies that walks the Internet. Including about 150 aircraft.

                        And the valiant Soviet anti-aircraft gunners reported on 1 (ONE) German plane shot down at night on June 22, 1941.
                      15. Simpsonian
                        Simpsonian 13 July 2016 16: 00
                        -1
                        you increase it and try to do the same as to whom there was an answer
                  2. Simpsonian
                    Simpsonian 11 July 2016 16: 19
                    0
                    Let's not write nonsense at all, and at least take a look at the Wikipedia about the French campaign.
  18. Colonel
    Colonel 10 July 2016 14: 34
    0
    I received this encryption of the General Staff: “All units and units of your unit located on the border itself should be taken back several kilometers, that is, to the line of prepared positions.

    The General Staff blinded such an encryption ???????????
  19. Sars
    Sars 10 July 2016 15: 00
    +1
    One Leningrad Military District was two to three times superior to the German army with its parody tanks.
    My beloved rabbi Finkelstein said on this occasion: "Hitler was very surprised by the effect of the Studio purge in the Red Army, the Germans expected complete betrayal, but received separate pockets of resistance."
    We would now reincarnate Comrade Beria.
  20. Sars
    Sars 10 July 2016 15: 06
    0
    We got the last name S-t-a-l-and-n, the program changes to Studio.
    The glory of Jewish democracy.
  21. iz odessy
    iz odessy 10 July 2016 15: 07
    +1
    1e and the obvious, Stalin himself was shocked by this "beginning." His "sitting" at the state dacha and some documented phrases. 2e - not the political but the military leadership is responsible for the daily combat readiness of the army. Take Pavlov's example and say the training and actions of the ODVO and the sailors of the Black Sea Fleet, and the same border guards in the first days 3. its obvious lag in "military thought" and military art (private positive examples are an exception)
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. stas
    stas 10 July 2016 15: 52
    +2
    According to all laws of military art, Hitler was not supposed to attack the USSR until the end of hostilities against England and North Africa (Rommel's group).
    Before the attack on the USSR, the Fritzes held a general command and staff game, according to the results of which it was established that if Germany did not defeat the USSR in the first 6 months, then the war with the USSR would be lost.

    But Hitler turned out to be an adventurer and decided during the short-term war to defeat Russia with its territories and did not believe his generals, as a result, the Fritz lost.

    There is an analogy of Hitler’s actions in lightning blitzkrieg and what the USA is counting on now is a lightning fast nuclear strike against Russia.
  24. Igor V
    Igor V 10 July 2016 16: 16
    +4
    There is another aspect that is not affected by commentators, but was considered a very important commander of the Second World War. Of course, now every marshal-general of divan troops, with some exceptions, is able to lead a corps, an army, or even a front into battle. But then, in the summer of 1941, there were few such people, or even not at all. In such matters as leading large formations, the experience that was gained during the hostilities and which was not at the beginning of the war is very important. Even the example of Zhukov, who commanded the corps at Khalkhin Gol, did not give him advantages due to lack of time. Studied in the process.
  25. there
    there 10 July 2016 17: 31
    -1
    Quote: apro
    It was not for nothing that comrade IVStalin said that the winners can and should be judged, the victory over the Germanic European Union cost us too much, and Pavlov’s betrayal put the USSR on the brink of defeat and cost many victims to prevent this. howls and with specific surnames and corpus delicti against the Soviet people.
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 17: 51
      -1
      Do not believe what Kharkov writes.
      If the speculation of Kharkov for you is higher than the historical truth, then to you in Kharkov.
  26. user3970
    user3970 10 July 2016 18: 16
    +8
    The fact that in the West History is tailored for itself is not surprising. But how Our tandem gets along in questions of History makes us think. Education in schools, textbooks, deflection in front of the Poles of the gdp in relation to Katyn, laying of wreaths and a mannerheim board, monuments to the hanger Stolypin, drapery of the mausoleum, construction of the Ebnu mausoleum in Ebnburg and other, other, other. Tendencies, however.
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 18: 21
      +4
      In vain, the liberals believed in their victory in Russia. A Chubais in the camera will be Manka.
  27. antivirus
    antivirus 10 July 2016 18: 51
    +2
    You think: at the highest level, a telegram left the Commissariat of Defense. Do you think it should be fixed somehow?
    Further, this telegram was received at the headquarters of five districts and two fleets. Do you think they should have fixed it somehow? Or did they get it in the ballot box? In fact, everything incoming is fixed.

    Everyone knew that the swing comes with a shoulder + - 1 million lives; and tlgrm no. Someone Albert Pikhoya became the beginning of archives in 91g, then different and different.
    We are waiting for the archives of Britain (they should have declassified k91 and have been postponed several times) - there is an answer and consent for the Baltic States and the M-Riben-Pa Pact, separately the Caucasus and the Greater Middle East --- SPHERES OF INFLUENCE (no longer under the Hammer Pact - Riben-pa, and according to the USSR-Brit empire against Germany and all the Axis countries, including Japan (violating the non-aggression treaty of the USSR -Japan)
    Apparently Britain recognized the Pact MR on the western borders of the USSR, and the USA then portrayed ignorance and did not recognize the Baltic states.
    And they took a rollback from the Britov for a "minute" weakness. The entire western hemisphere came under US control from the British Empire.
    They proposed an alliance against all who did not bend under the future of NATO.
    CONCLUSION:
    1. only force helped to maintain the results of the Victory under the agreements agreed in Potsdam and Yalta.
    2. The resources were determined by Khrushchev and Zhukov and Stalin and the USA and Japan and all the others correctly, and then be patient and do "for yourself and that guy."
    Every day of artillery, air and tank maneuvers has a cost + killed according to the calculations of GS = cm p 2. Every day of the war was and is now worth all the lies
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 19: 30
      +2
      What are you talking about antivirus? You can shorter and more accurate with the assessment.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 11 July 2016 09: 04
        +2
        conclusions will be only after 2041 g
        When all those interested in them (precisely determine the reasons) die
        In 1982, my father told me (new trousers, he could not fasten his buttoned fly with his left hand): but I can do anything and anything. Seen enough on the disabled after the war.
        Already by the 37th anniversary of the Victory of the disabled there were no more
  28. user3970
    user3970 10 July 2016 19: 50
    +4
    Chubais from the untouchable clan. Remember Colonel Klochkov. gdp will not give up dad, even if the latter will bathe in the blood of infants.
  29. Partisan Kramaha
    Partisan Kramaha 10 July 2016 19: 53
    +4
    Quote: AK64
    They told you that the weak border units, by their determination and small arms, were able to impose a stubborn struggle on the border, and Pavlov had much more opportunities for this.

    Firstly, I would strongly recommend that you contact strangers on You - talking with boorish is somehow unpleasant.
    And secondly, the "border units" did not "impose" any "stubborn struggle" on anyone, and could not impose them: the Germans simply did not notice these "border units" on the directions of the main attacks. Which is understandable: when an artillery regiment is working out at the outpost, there is already no one to "impose" on.

    Well, this is if the outpost of races ... zdyaev. If competently burrowed, then artillery only transfers ammunition. Proved by the militia in Slavyansk.
    1. stas
      stas 10 July 2016 19: 59
      0
      AK64 scatters diarrhea in a black toilet.
  30. ecologer
    ecologer 10 July 2016 20: 45
    +1
    We can talk a lot about the unprofessionalism and inexperience of the commanders of the first echelon, about the failure to comply with orders to put the troops on combat alert, about the incorrect forecasting of the direction of the main attack, the bottom line is one: the General Staff is to blame: it did not properly organize the system and scheme for deploying troops, bringing them to combat readiness, slammed the direction of the main attack and ineffectively carried out command of the troops in the border battle. All the rest is the consequences of the actions of the General Staff, it is hardly possible to argue with this.
  31. Olezhek
    Olezhek 10 July 2016 21: 35
    0
    Yes
    The people are worried about this issue.
    What happened in 41 ???
    Myths and legends no longer roll, but no answers
    1. AK64
      AK64 10 July 2016 21: 44
      +3
      Myths and legends no longer roll, but no answers

      And why come up with other myths and legends?

      What's the problem with 22/06/41? The answer has long existed - the suddenness of the blow. What this answer does not suit, I do not understand?

      An unmobilized army is not operational, it is a flat fact.
      1. cast iron
        cast iron 6 November 2016 00: 03
        +1
        This is too simple and too wrong an answer. The most simple and correct answer is:
        We were attacked by the BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD.
        If you do not understand, then I will repeat again:
        We were attacked by the BEST ARMY IN THE WORLD.

        And this explains everything very clearly.
  32. hohol95
    hohol95 10 July 2016 22: 47
    +1
    Here we are all looking for answers to the causes of defeats at the beginning of World War II! Interestingly, but in France or Great Britain they were searched for ??? Published answers to questions ??? Their generals and marshals flew heads off their shoulders ??? How did the unreserved Great British ENERALES pay for the defeats in Asia and Africa ??? Nobody bothered them to study! Many had the experience of the First Imperialist !!! Like the Guardian Guard Cavalry guards of the winners of the GERMAN HUNG hordes in the First IMP ...- !!! They did not have revolutions! Civil wars! Industrialization! Holodomor on the floor of the country !!! Fight against banditry and Basmachism! War with the White Chinese and White-skinned! Their people were not volunteers - only mercenaries in the war with Japan in China !!! And they didn’t send so many weapons to China! Ka and to Spain! WERE VICTIMS! YES!!! WOMEN, CHILDREN AND OLD MAN !! YES!!! COULD NOT STOP FASTING IMMEDIATELY! YES!!! BADLY? YES!!! BUT IN FINNISH I DIDN'T DIRECTLY IMMEDIATELY !!! PEOPLE ARE SORRY! YES!!! BUT WE ARE ALIVE! AND DO NOT REPEAT IT!
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 11 July 2016 09: 10
      0
      the reason is 27 million lives against 2-5-1.5 million others
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 11 July 2016 09: 52
        +1
        Another lie. And where do these numbers come from? And if you include "mosk"?
  33. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 11 July 2016 00: 32
    +2
    5. To what extent were the headquarters ready for command and control, and to what extent did this affect the course of operations during the first days of the war?

    Headquarters? Some humble question. What are the headquarters? And the chief "staff officer" - what about him? I had to ask about myself. But who would dare to answer him ...
  34. polo
    polo 11 July 2016 01: 54
    +2
    Have you read Anthony Sutton's book How The Order Organizes Wars and Revolutions? If not, I highly recommend it.
    1. cast iron
      cast iron 6 November 2016 00: 01
      +2
      You read Lenin or Karl Marx, or Greek philosophers with German ones. These comrades have written much smarter and more useful things than the next author of "sensations" and "bestsellers" Anthony Sutton.
  35. unknown
    unknown 11 July 2016 14: 10
    +2
    Quote: stas
    Zhukov G.K. four times Hero of the Soviet Union, and this is a historical fact,
    and who claims a different and negative liberal and descendant of the Trotskyists.

    Such descendants of the Trotskyites of Judaic appearance on the ECHO, a whole battalion is working, codifying our history.


    1. Zhukov is a representative of the "second echelon" of the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Trotskyist.
    2. After WWII, a study was carried out in Germany, during which it was found that among the so-called Jews there are more blondes and blue-eyed in a percentage ratio than among the "true Aryans."
    3. There is no Jewish appearance. All external signs attributed to the so-called Jews are signs of the "Armenian type", that is, Armenians.
    4. Professor of Tel Aviv University Shlomo Sand wrote the book "Who and Why Invented the Jewish People."
    5. The word "Jew" is translated as "immigrant". The words "Jew" and European have the same meaning.
    6. The word "Jew" is translated as "praising God," that is, in Russian: ideological.
    1. AK64
      AK64 11 July 2016 14: 34
      0
      Quote: stas
      Zhukov G.K. four times Hero of the Soviet Union, and this is a historical fact,
      and who claims a different and negative liberal and descendant of the Trotskyists.

      Such descendants of the Trotskyites of Judaic appearance on the ECHO, a whole battalion is working, codifying our history.



      1. Zhukov is a representative of the "second echelon" of the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Trotskyist.
      2. After WWII, a study was carried out in Germany, during which it was found that among the so-called Jews there are more blondes and blue-eyed in a percentage ratio than among the "true Aryans."
      3. There is no Jewish appearance. All external signs attributed to the so-called Jews are signs of the "Armenian type", that is, Armenians.
      4. Professor of Tel Aviv University Shlomo Sand wrote the book "Who and Why Invented the Jewish People."
      5. The word "Jew" is translated as "immigrant". The words "Jew" and European have the same meaning.
      6. The word "Jew" is translated as "praising God," that is, in Russian: ideological.


      Listen to you and there are no reptilians
      1. igor.borov775
        igor.borov775 11 July 2016 18: 46
        +1
        It's a shame that instead of discussing those tragic events, many rushed to discuss what they like. It is bad that many are not interested. A briefing from Belarus at 12 o'clock indicated with all parts held in contact by messengers. There was no connection with the 45th regiment and with the 75th regiment the delegates sent didn’t return. It’s just a statement of fact. And in the defense zone of these divisions to the south and north of Brest the German tank corps crossed and escalating strikes rushed forward. They were supported from the air by the air corps. they left the watch a hundred km in front. They didn’t know about it in Minsk, they didn’t know in Moscow. Following the tanks went the Hitler’s moto corps. Look at the map of the first days of battles. The Germans were beaten at the front and the tanks with moto corps went to the rear trying to break the second echelon of cover borders and surround. Learn the story
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 12 July 2016 00: 24
          0
          Correctly noticed. You need to learn history. On the Brest route, no one left a hundred kilometers on the first day. Bock's diary
          “We are moving forward; most of all in this sense, the Goth tank group succeeded, which in the evening passed under the direct command of an army group. Guderian’s tank group is far from doing so smoothly. Brest’s ferry problems are the same as those of Lemelzen’s corps - they make it difficult to deliver fuel ”
  36. potapych
    potapych 13 July 2016 09: 53
    +1
    only the heroic actions of the soldiers in the first months of the war are worthy of respect, the command staff in its majority crap
    1. cast iron
      cast iron 5 November 2016 23: 58
      +1
      Look at you as a hero on June 22, 1941))) The command staff fought just like the soldiers and lost a lot of people in the first months of the war.