Military Review

The devil wears the "Truth." Part of 7

130
Topic aviation I open with the following quote from Suicide: “The Nazis thought that in the Soviet Union there were poor quality airplanes. They simply could not believe that the MiG-3 surpasses the Messerschmitt-109 in the entire range of flight tactical characteristics. The superiority in speed was especially tangible ”(p. 101).

It is incorrect to compare the MiG-3 with the Messerschmitt, since the first one was a purely high-altitude fighter intended primarily for intercepting bomber aircraft. Agility was sacrificed power. “Messerschmitt” was also a fighter of medium heights and, although in speed and rate of climb, was inferior to the MiG, but was well adapted for maneuvering combat.

It was at mid-altitude that the “Stalin falcons” and the followers of the Red Baron confronted. Such realities struck out the MiG-3 aircraft from among the priority fighters for the Soviet defense industry. During the Great Patriotic War, these winged vehicles basically “covered” the capital and major industrial centers of the country from attacks by enemy bomber aircraft.

Therefore, the overwhelming majority of our fellow citizens in the former USSR have heard much more about the jet "descendants" of the MiG-3, than about him. With this in mind, Viktor Suvorov trumpets trying to shock the reader: “... in the Western Special Military District alone, there were more MiG-3 alone than all Messerschmitt-109 on the entire Soviet-German front” (p. 101) . In the head of a person who mistakenly decided to eliminate ignorance stories The Second World War with the help of the writings of Rezun will instantly sweep: “Even if there were a myriad MiGs, then what about the same“ yaks ”to talk about!” How can you disagree with the author that Zhukov once again blatantly lies (hereafter): “ German intelligence did not know anything about the Yak-1 and LaGG-3. And we will not repeat after Marshal Zhukov that there were few of them ”(p. 101).

The total number of MiG-3 planes in the flight units was much higher than the number of all “Yaks” and “Laggs” in the ranks combined. As of 1 June 1941, in the five western military districts, where the lion's share of the MiG-3 fighters was located, there were 845 of such machines (of these, about 400 units in the Western Special Military District). Before the start of the war with Germany, only 425 “yaks” and 322 “laggs” were built. It is clear that in the parts of the Air Force there were even fewer.

It is necessary to take into account that the newest Soviet fighters were only mastered by our pilots. On 1 June 1941, the MiG-3 aircraft managed to fly around only the 322 pilot well. By the way, the serial production of the MiG-3 began only in December 1940. Approximately at the same time the production of the Yak-1 and LaGG-3 fighters started.

Let's not forget about the Luftwaffe vehicles. In all four air fleets the aggressor numbered over a thousand Bf-109 fighters ("Messerschmitt-109" - Soviet designation). There were, accordingly, more than MiG-3 aircraft in the service of the Red Army Air Force. 60% of all "one hundred and ninth" belonged to modification F, whose representatives were armed with two 7,92-mm machine guns and one 20-mm automatic cannon that fired through the propeller shaft. The Migi had slightly weaker weapons - four machine guns, including two large-caliber ones.

As for the LaGG-3, these fighters at the time of the start of Operation Barbarossa were far from the western borders, and the baptism of the Lagg occurred on July 13 1941, when Lieutenant Bondarenko in the Smolensk region shot down German Do 17, which carried out reconnaissance. The LaGG-3 was a decent medium-height fighter, but it was noticeably inferior to Alexander Yakovlev, a beautiful aircraft designer in all respects, the Yak-1.

The most massive Soviet fighter at the start of Operation Barbarossa was the 16, nicknamed our pilots "donkey". The five western military districts (Leningrad, Baltic, Western special, Kiev special and Odessa), which were to be the first to meet the treacherous enemy, were armed with the 1771 aircraft of this type. This is more than the Bf-109 fighters from the Germans, but the "donkeys" that dominated the civil war of Spain in the sky until the first "one hundred and ninths" appeared there could definitely not be on an equal footing with such a counterpart. Armament And-16 also did not contribute to this: three machine guns, including one large-caliber.

The second most popular fighter of the Red Army Air Force was the Chaika I-153. Serial production of “gulls” started in 1939 year. This is the most perfect biplane of its time and the world's first aircraft of a similar design with a retractable landing gear. But, if in terms of aircraft manufacturing in general, this sample was a step forward, then in military terms, the "reset" of the biplane scheme was no longer very relevant. With all the ensuing consequences in the summer of 1941 ... However, it should be noted that the “seagulls” were very successfully used during the Battle of the Caucasus, when these fighters at extremely low altitudes, maneuvering among the mountains, suddenly attacked the units of Wehrmacht, making their way through Caucasian passes to oil Baku. For this purpose, "seagulls" were attached to the aid of rocket projectiles.

Viktor Suvorov did not even casually mention in his essay either “donkeys” or “gulls”. As if these winged cars were not at all ...

To be continued ...
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  1. Khariton
    Khariton 25 June 2016 15: 37
    .
    Do not figure it out ... The main thing is Hitler’s soaked!
    1. Teberii
      Teberii 25 June 2016 15: 48
      +30
      Deal does not hurt in any business, especially the initial stage of the Second World War. It is necessary to draw conclusions and prevent repetition.
      1. Khariton
        Khariton 25 June 2016 16: 07
        -7
        Quote: Teberii
        Deal does not hurt in any business, especially the initial stage of the Second World War. It is necessary to draw conclusions and prevent repetition.

        Well, enough to humiliate us ....! How could they have fought, the liberals will now begin to grind their tongues .... We ourselves know our mistakes, we already have them in the genes!
        1. Teberii
          Teberii 25 June 2016 16: 13
          +3
          No one humiliates you. But you need to learn lessons, the USE will not help you here.
          1. Khariton
            Khariton 25 June 2016 17: 01
            +5
            Quote: Teberii
            No one humiliates you. But you need to learn lessons, the USE will not help you here.

            I passed horror in the 90s ... And you would need to teach Russian! hi
            1. Mahmut
              Mahmut 25 June 2016 18: 02
              -9
              Viktor Suvorov did not even casually mention in his essay either “donkeys” or “gulls”. As if these winged cars were not at all ...

              And what to mention about them if the speed of the Messerschmitts was 1,5 times higher than the speed of the I-16. As far as I remember, Viktor Suvorov was indignant that 2 years before the war, the production of high-altitude turboprop bombers, which were not reached by any enemy interceptors or anti-aircraft guns, and which could carry up to 5 tons of bomb load, was completely stopped. Having in service with several hundred of these machines, it was already possible in the summer of 1941 to turn every week a large city, such as Berlin, into dust. That's what Rezun writes about, and the Zainchkivsky whistleblower is silent about the same. Again, hack work, instead of refuting it at the root, it finds fault with quotation marks and commas.
              1. Mahmut
                Mahmut 25 June 2016 18: 07
                +4
                No one humiliates you. But you need to learn lessons, the USE will not help you here.

                Pan Gramoteev, you need to write correctly "No one humiliates you." Three mistakes in one short sentence.
                1. Suhov
                  Suhov 25 June 2016 18: 38
                  +7
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  Three mistakes in one short sentence.

                  This is not the limit.
                  Catherine the Great made four mistakes in a three-letter word! hi
                2. Altona
                  Altona 25 June 2016 19: 37
                  +4
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  Pan Gramoteev, you need to write correctly "No one humiliates you." Three mistakes in one short sentence.

                  ----------------
                  Not everyone can communicate with the "difficult Russian language", because there are many "declensions and cases" and in no way they "learn better". laughing
                3. Tanya
                  Tanya 25 June 2016 21: 40
                  +6
                  You have two errors in the corrected text. hi
                4. sherp2015
                  sherp2015 27 June 2016 11: 06
                  +1
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  you need to write correctly "No one humiliates you.


                  ))))))))))
              2. Gray brother
                Gray brother 25 June 2016 20: 17
                +7
                Quote: Mahmut
                turboprop

                Hand face. What are you talking about?
                Here is a turboprop:
              3. Koshak
                Koshak 25 June 2016 21: 47
                +6
                Quote: Mahmut
                As far as I remember, Viktor Suvorov was outraged by the fact that 2 years before the war, the production of high-altitude turboprop bombers was completely stopped, which were not reached by any enemy interceptors or anti-aircraft guns,

                But at the expense of the "TURBO-SCREWS" I would like more details and links. What is this, Tu-95, or what?
                1. Mahmut
                  Mahmut 25 June 2016 22: 17
                  .
                  See the references in the reference book, but the first turboprop aircraft appeared in the USSR before the war. Well, then, what distinguishes a screw engine from a turboprop you yourself will read. I will not chew you.
                  1. Koshak
                    Koshak 26 June 2016 07: 27
                    +6
                    Quote: Mahmut
                    See the references in the reference book, but the first turboprop aircraft appeared in the USSR before the war. Well, then, what distinguishes a screw engine from a turboprop you yourself will read. I will not chew you.

                    The easiest way is to say, "Go and search." Propeller engines are classified as reciprocating and turboprop engines. The latter found application in aviation only after the Second World War (the English Trent-Meteor took off on September 20, 1945, and it became the world's first turboprop aircraft). And before the war in the USSR, a pilot batch of ACh-2B diesel engines was produced for installation on the Er-8 and Pe-30 aircraft, but the diesel is a piston engine
                  2. Vadivak
                    Vadivak 26 June 2016 11: 39
                    +4
                    Quote: Mahmut
                    first turboprop aircraft appeared in the USSR before the war

                    Good news, but in more detail?
                    1. Koshak
                      Koshak 26 June 2016 21: 59
                      0
                      Quote: Vadivak
                      Quote: Mahmut
                      first turboprop aircraft appeared in the USSR before the war

                      Good news, but in more detail?

                      "Mahmut" said - go and look in the reference book (only in which one, he did not say). It is not a tsar's business to look for and upload links.
              4. your1970
                your1970 26 June 2016 02: 15
                +5
                armed with several hundred vehicles and systematically bombing Germany, the Allies DO NOT ACHIEVE STRATEGIC GOALS AT ALL until the end of the war ......
                Dismantled a thousand times, there were no engines and that's it ....
              5. db1967
                db1967 26 June 2016 10: 54
                +3
                What SUCH cars? Sound the model for this prodigy? laughing
              6. Vadivak
                Vadivak 26 June 2016 11: 34
                +3
                Quote: Mahmut
                the speed of the Messerschmitts was 1,5 times the speed of the I-16.


                Neither catch up nor leave. But if the Bf-109 got involved with the I-16 into battle, then the donkey did it both on the bends and on the vertical. Read Kaberov's "Swastika in sight",
                Information - April 1943. The 4th Guards and Infantry Regiment KBF, one of the most successful regiments, passed retraining on the La-5 fighter with I-16
                1. CT-55_11-9009
                  CT-55_11-9009 27 June 2016 19: 50
                  +1
                  Here, the skills and experience of the pilots were already taken into account.
              7. CT-55_11-9009
                CT-55_11-9009 27 June 2016 19: 46
                +1
                Yeah. And there were no high-altitude interceptors in the Luftwaffe, yeah! YES and also Flak 18 were long-range.
        2. Pereira
          Pereira 25 June 2016 16: 48
          +1
          Not so simple. There were many mistakes. Everyone considers the main mistakes something their own. Who sins on technology, who on tactics, who on people. But what was the influence of these errors on the result, in what proportion, this is interesting, this is the subject of deep research.
        3. dmi.pris
          dmi.pris 25 June 2016 18: 07
          +2
          Errors in genes? It smacks of the Nazi theory of the superiority of one race and the inferiority of others. Do you consider yourself flawed? I think it’s unlikely. You just can’t say about others that they were born with errors.
          1. Monarchist
            Monarchist 25 June 2016 18: 59
            -4
            For the same hints .. chase can be removed
      2. Sergey-8848
        Sergey-8848 25 June 2016 22: 10
        +4
        So this is not even an article, but a cutting by a plagiarist of phrases from different publications of different authors of different times with a claim to the real truth.
    2. Army soldier2
      Army soldier2 25 June 2016 16: 25
      +15
      Haritosha, 222 comment in six days! Dear, you work for wear. At least have some tea.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 25 June 2016 16: 27
        +4
        Quote: Army 2
        Haritosha, 222 comment in six days! Dear, you work for wear. At least have some tea.

        and what not to do for the sake of green pluses ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Pereira
          Pereira 25 June 2016 16: 54
          +1
          Pluses is very important.

          Here, see how our likes save the world:

          http://monk.com.ua/funny_photos/2012/05/10/poleznyy-layk-9-foto.html
      2. Khariton
        Khariton 25 June 2016 17: 08
        .
        Quote: Army 2
        Haritosha, 222 comment in six days! Dear, you work for wear. At least have some tea.

        Liberians are ready to control you around the clock ...! You are like cockroaches ... soldier It’s better not to be rude ... (I love purely Russian language and do not speak it bad ..)))))
        1. Alf
          Alf 25 June 2016 22: 20
          +8
          Quote: Chariton
          Liberians are ready to control you around the clock ...! You’re like cockroaches ... You don’t have to be rude better ... (I love purely Russian and I speak it well ..)))))

          Before and after the "libers" you must put commas, this is an appeal.
          "Not bad" is spelled together.
          And you still say that you speak Russian?
          1. Khariton
            Khariton 26 June 2016 12: 13
            -1
            Quote: Alf
            Quote: Chariton
            Liberians are ready to control you around the clock ...! You’re like cockroaches ... You don’t have to be rude better ... (I love purely Russian and I speak it well ..)))))

            Before and after the "libers" you must put commas, this is an appeal.
            "Not bad" is spelled together.
            And you still say that you speak Russian?

            I speak "purely" Russian ... It's forbidden here! wassat
      3. Banishing liberoids
        Banishing liberoids 25 June 2016 17: 12
        +1
        Armeec2 will get a man marshal epaulettes, then he will drink cognac to Conistra for joy.
      4. Vladimir 1964
        Vladimir 1964 25 June 2016 18: 02
        +1
        Quote: Army 2
        Haritosha, 222 comment in six days! Dear, you work for wear. At least have some tea.

        Not a stupid colleague. wassat
        1. Vladimir 1964
          Vladimir 1964 25 June 2016 18: 56
          +4
          What's "Haritosha" hooked on? You will not be a "marshal" due to limitations. wassat
      5. dmi.pris
        dmi.pris 25 June 2016 18: 12
        +4
        This man is grinding rubbish. Or nothing to do, or stuck to your computer .. Khariton, go do something useful. For example, today I’m already tired, I'm building a house.
        Quote: Army 2
        Haritosha, 222 comment in six days! Dear, you work for wear. At least have some tea.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. siberalt
      siberalt 25 June 2016 17: 49
      +8
      Rezun - a traitor, has long been known to everyone. He is now the best friend in the Ukrainian media and an ardent Russophobe. Expose it as a historian of the Second World War as it is not comme il faut. For what the West pays him about it and writes. And so, an ordinary political prostitute.
      1. Dam
        Dam 25 June 2016 18: 00
        +3
        It is unfortunate that he did not suffer the fate of the GRU traitors, the burning in the crematorium alive. But what are his years. Still to come
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 25 June 2016 19: 20
        +4
        "... a political prostitute" is a pretty loyal definition. In general, Mr. Rezun - *** 1 article.In the Soviet Union, how many nationalities lived? So this * uy humiliates all who died, who worked for the good of Victory. And now dill is recognized as a historian2 sorts. 1 sorts - the authors of nonsense about ancient acts. In my opinion, even Goebbels and Rosenberg did not say that the Aryans were navigators. So that V. Suvorov should be imposed in all languages ​​of the former Soviet Union!
    5. dmi.pris
      dmi.pris 25 June 2016 18: 04
      0
      Especially with these rezuns and the rest of the "Pravdists."
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 25 June 2016 15: 44
    +2
    Rezun’s work itself ... it's like a ferret’s, sneaks into the chicken coop, spoils the air .. whoever knows it and drags it away ..
    1. Khariton
      Khariton 25 June 2016 16: 11
      0
      Quote: parusnik
      Rezun’s work itself ... it's like a ferret’s, sneaks into the chicken coop, spoils the air .. whoever knows it and drags it away ..

      Rezun is a traitor, a defector! He passed many and now a kind of "historian" ... Who will see, Give in the face! soldier
  3. sober
    sober 25 June 2016 15: 55
    +16
    Yes, and then that !!!!!!!!!!!
    1. bogdan4ik
      bogdan4ik 25 June 2016 22: 24
      0
      The Germans took up this at the beginning of the war. Red Army airfields near the borders, the Germans climbed on them in the first hours of the war. About 70% of aviation losses in the Western direction were in the parking lots of aircraft from enemy tanks and aircraft.
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 June 2016 09: 38
        0
        part of the airfields fell even under artillery attacks.
  4. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 25 June 2016 15: 56
    +10
    Rezun man is undoubtedly smart. So to distort the story, substituting concepts and draw logical conclusions at first glance, you still have to manage. I remember how his first books appeared with us, how they read them with enthusiasm and considered them almost a revelation from ... Yes, and now he has enough admirers, fortunately already less.
    1. kotvov
      kotvov 25 June 2016 17: 04
      +1
      I remember how his first books appeared with us, how they read them with enthusiasm,
      I don’t know, I personally at first understood what kind of vegetable it was. Too many no connections.
    2. Orionvit
      Orionvit 25 June 2016 17: 52
      +2
      Rezun wrote under the dictation of MI6. I even heard somewhere that his different books differ in the style of writing. I confess. In the late 80s. many fell under the influence of this "author", we just were not spoiled by this kind of literature. True, of all his opuses I read only "Aquarium", then I thought for a long time. As a result, I didn't read anything else from his concoction.
      1. romex1
        romex1 26 June 2016 00: 29
        0
        The icebreaker, and he did not fully mastered. Primary nonsense ....
    3. bogdan4ik
      bogdan4ik 25 June 2016 22: 30
      -3
      Rezuna read back in 1996 that he managed to get it. Then in the army and after it I read all the books that he indicates in the lists of literature that he could get - about 80% of these. All he says is right. BUT he has a condition - to crap on the USSR and Russia. In some books, he avoids this condition. But not for long. Stalin wanted to crush the West and was preparing to do this with a sudden blow. But Putin is doing the same now. And the West has earned such an attitude towards him from Russia. Rezun Stalin gives this intention as aggression. This is his condition of being in the West under protection. What is there to do. But in matters of studying and the technical side of World War II and the Great Patriotic War, he is 99% right. And regarding the development of the Red Army and the USSR as a whole, and according to Zhukov, and the Purification of not only the Red Army but the entire USSR, the final of which was 1937. For the sake of interest, do not pay attention to his arguments about the ethical, moral side regarding the USSR, which he presents. And you cannot refute his arguments.
      1. Rust0626
        Rust0626 26 June 2016 09: 56
        +1
        I lost 3 years of my life on Rezun, I read a bunch of books. I do not respect him as a traitor and praiser of England. But I don’t know a single competent whistleblower of this coworker, they all repeat Soviet encyclopedias and references to the memoirs of Zhukov and other generals, whom I also do not believe.
        Maybe someone will tell a competent book?
        1. Gamdlislyam
          Gamdlislyam 26 June 2016 19: 56
          0
          Quote: Rust0626
          Maybe someone will tell a competent book?

          Dear Rust Colleague, check out the Goblin Dumbass website. There, in the section "Intelligence Interrogation - History" there are many conversations with military historians who tell about the Second World War quite intelligibly (with reference to documents, or give links to literature, more or less, in their opinion, reliable), as well as about the Red Army Air Force ...
          On June 8 there was a reconnaissance survey of the historian Mikhail Timin "On Soviet aviation at the time of the beginning of the Second World War." Very interesting data were presented.
        2. yehat
          yehat 28 June 2016 09: 42
          0
          Rezun is very easy to refute.
          take any event Rezun stuttered about. Read about it in 3 sources - the USSR, the Germans and the British (avoiding the most agaldela). Express your opinion by comparing. And then read Rezun about it. Then you will understand the ridiculousness of his little books.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. bovig
      bovig 26 June 2016 23: 01
      0
      Quote: Vladimirets
      Rezun man is undoubtedly smart. So to distort the story, substituting concepts and draw logical conclusions at first glance, you still have to manage. I remember how his first books appeared with us, how they read them with enthusiasm and considered them almost a revelation from ... Yes, and now he has enough admirers, fortunately already less.

      In the first chapters, he also seemed smart to me, however, the contradictions in his own logical calculations quickly give him out ... He is knowledgeable (he worked a lot with archival documents), owning literary abilities. but his mind didn’t flash ... The syllable of presentation is colorful, but primitive cliches and clichés that are obsessively repeating, and contradictory logic betrays - then, his command of the Wehrmacht is ingenious, and the political elite of the Reich, led by Hitler, and idiots, then vice versa. With the same contradictions, Stalin describes with the General Staff of the Red Army ... Yes, even in operating with facts and figures, he admits logical mistakes! In general, analytics are delusional (although very colorful) - their own fantasies and fictions, basing them on outright lies, try (not always smoothly and consistently) to shuffle the facts and pass them off as strategic plans and, even, conspiracy theories ... Moreover, often refuting myself ... I don’t even remember the name of the book I read (however, it’s not so important, because judging by the critical articles, he writes the same thing in all of them and uses the same facts), but before reaching the middle realized that the author is her con! I read it to the end purely out of curiosity and, more than that, he did not interest me ...
  5. atamankko
    atamankko 25 June 2016 15: 59
    +4
    It is difficult to understand the logic of a layman.
    1. vv3
      vv3 25 June 2016 17: 48
      .
      Totally agree with you. The fact that the author of the article is a teapot, like most of those who made comments, is not in doubt. Mr. 1 German plane, with a trained pilot, with experience in combat, in a well-functioning security system, in a reliable machine with communications, plus interaction with other pilots cost 10 of our new aircraft in the air. And this condition remained, almost until the end of the war. We must pay tribute to that with incredible efforts, the number of such aces was greatly reduced by the end of the war, but the few that remained spat on our falcons, and were more afraid of anti-aircraft guns and bombers, while on the ground ... He served 10 years on concrete and went through everything positions - from technician to engineer of the regiment! I want to note that the intensity and effectiveness of combat use depends on ground support, reliability of equipment, literacy and training of ground personnel and the skills and experience of flight personnel ...
      1. Orionvit
        Orionvit 25 June 2016 18: 11
        +6
        Gentlemen, 1 German plane, with a trained pilot, with experience in combat, operations, in a well-functioning support system, in a reliable machine with communications, plus interaction with other pilots cost 10 of our new aircraft in the air. And this condition persisted until the end of the war.
        You uncle fell from the moon? I don’t know who you reached there on concrete, well, you don’t have to talk nonsense. After the Battle of Stalingrad, namely in the spring of 1943, the Germans finally lost their air superiority. This was clearly seen in air battles in the battle for the Caucasus. And this already continued until the end of the war. Have they decreased the number of aces? Poor people, and ours were already giving birth to their own? Just our pilots wanted to spit on theirs aces. As one famous character said, "They burn for a sweet soul."
        1. vv3
          vv3 25 June 2016 22: 55
          -2
          I do not argue, I arrogantly affirm, listen and remember.
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 25 June 2016 19: 24
        0
        Sergeant! Read Pokryshkin, Drabkin, and then ...
        1. vv3
          vv3 25 June 2016 22: 54
          -6
          I read, not the captain. I’ll put your sergeant in, you know where, cut his hair short .... Pokryshkin, preached an instant powerful attack and departure. He flew on what plane to the war ... His tactics were completely suitable for young jet aircraft, where there is no second approach. And he successfully used it and taught others how to fight. Read on, novels and essays ....
          1. Pereira
            Pereira 26 June 2016 02: 50
            0
            His tactics were a creative overhaul of German tactics. If you do not understand this, then you have wasted your time on concrete.
            It turns out I'm not a professional, I understand more.
      3. mikael
        mikael 25 June 2016 23: 17
        +3
        and how to explain the chatter of the German aces on the downed Soviet planes? if their first most "productive" hundred in their reports shot down more than there were planes in the USSR from 1940 to 1945, and don't try to talk about who was afraid of whom and how, if you are such a connoisseur tell us on the basis of what the shot down pilot was recorded in the Red Army and the Luftwaffe
        1. Pereira
          Pereira 26 June 2016 02: 51
          0
          This is a cruel question.
  6. Evgeny59
    Evgeny59 25 June 2016 16: 05
    0
    Now I'm too lazy to get the memories of A.S. Yakovlev, but as far as I remember, we lost more than 1200 aircraft in the first few weeks of the war, mainly at airfields. Yes, there were very few modern fighters at that time, and the Ishachki took the brunt of the blow. And I have not read Viktor Suvorov and am not going to, his works are far from relevant, initially with their appearance it was clear that they were based on pure speculation.
    1. Teberii
      Teberii 25 June 2016 16: 10
      +2
      All conclusions are based on the number of losses, it is almost impossible to calculate which car and how it died in the first hours of the war.
    2. bastard
      bastard 25 June 2016 16: 49
      +6
      Quote: Evgeny59
      But I didn’t read Viktor Suvorov and I’m not going to

      I've read it. This prompted me to get from the shelves reference books such as "Encyclopedia of the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" and other books and volumes of encyclopedias. Thank you mother, I didn’t spare money for books. I also bought reference books that were not in our library. So my brother and I read Rezun with great pleasure. It is difficult to imagine a greater thrill.
      The Bible with the Qur'an and many other books were read in the same way.
      Just do not be outraged loudly, I even read "Mein Kampf". And not only. Must read!
      My regards. hi
      1. Evgeny59
        Evgeny59 25 June 2016 18: 40
        +1
        You know, when someone tells me that two plus two equals five, I not only have distrust of someone, but I'm just a competent person and I am not led to such a scam. When someone says that he read mine camphus, I do not consider him a civilized person, Russian, in every family we have lost. It was Western civilization that did us such harm that it cannot be compared with anything. Live it. Good luck.
        1. Monarchist
          Monarchist 25 June 2016 19: 32
          0
          Petty Officer, golden words!
        2. bastard
          bastard 25 June 2016 19: 34
          +2
          Quote: Evgeny59
          When someone says that he read mine camph, I don’t consider him a civilized person, Russian, in every family we have lost

          Let's say you are an investigator. If I understand you correctly, then for successful work, that is, catching criminals and their competent exposure, you do not need to study fenya, you do not need to "cut in thieves' concepts", you should not study the psychology of criminals and their world. What for? So what?
          Let's continue:
          Quote: Evgeny59
          It was Western civilization that did us such harm that it cannot be compared with anything.

          That's why she inflicted that they studied little. But they are studying us! Meticulously and thoroughly. They do not study the structure in general terms, but how the killer studies the victim, namely: how and where to hit, so that he could immediately.
          Quote: Evgeny59
          Live it. Good luck.

          Many thanks. Same to you.
          By the way:
          Quote: Evgeny59
          You know, when someone tells me that

          I don’t remember when and where we switched to "you".
          Be healthy! For attention to the topic +.
          1. Evgeny59
            Evgeny59 26 June 2016 02: 32
            0
            In a very good film by Leonid Bykov there is a phrase: "We will live!" I don’t care or say in another way why you reacted in my comment to the name of Suvorov, but I don’t care about him, these are your problems. Just live. Good luck.
        3. romex1
          romex1 26 June 2016 00: 39
          +1
          in order to defeat a potential adversary, you need to know what he thinks about, what he sleeps with, what he breathes. and read opuses like Mine Kampf NEED. After all, this is propaganda, and it is necessary to respond to it with counter-propaganda. any war is, first of all, a struggle for the minds of people, therefore, for their will.
        4. bastard
          bastard 26 June 2016 01: 40
          0
          Quote: Evgeny59
          when someone tells me that two plus two equals five,

          Excuse me generously, I almost forgot! In a duodecimal notation, this is exactly what will be.
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 25 June 2016 19: 30
        +1
        Colonel-General, let me ask you, what exactly did you get "... a big buzz" from?
        1. bastard
          bastard 25 June 2016 22: 45
          0
          Quote: Monarchist
          Colonel-General, let me ask you, what exactly did you get "... a big buzz" from?

          Well, mushrooms, there, substances. . .
          Just kidding
          From reading using reference books. I am a pervert. fellow
      3. Pereira
        Pereira 26 June 2016 02: 53
        +1
        By the way, in Mine Kampf I really liked the description of how Hitler became an anti-Semite. Very instructive.
        1. bastard
          bastard 26 June 2016 03: 55
          +1
          Quote: Pereira
          By the way, in Mine Kampf I really liked the description of how Hitler became an anti-Semite. Very instructive.

          It is a pity that there was no USE at that time, otherwise Adik would have entered the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna and we might now have admired his paintings. And then after all it came out. Yeah
  7. Banishing liberoids
    Banishing liberoids 25 June 2016 16: 20
    +4
    Here's an example of a lured Judas — if the owners ordered it, the slime wrote that there were seven aircraft carriers in our fleet, but since we did not know how to use them, they simply drowned or melted them — what more could we expect from this lying dog?
  8. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 25 June 2016 16: 22
    0
    I read to the phrase about the "five western military districts" - goodbye.
    And "yashka" is a thing.
    1. kotvov
      kotvov 25 June 2016 17: 08
      0
      And "yashka" is a thing. ,,
      only for a trained pilot. alas, there were not so many of them.
      1. iliitchitch
        iliitchitch 25 June 2016 17: 59
        +2
        Quote: kotvov
        only for a trained pilot. alas, there were not so many of them.


        So they were, not a spoon, the guys ate tea.
        I read in a book: there was an unspoken order from Goering - when meeting with a new modification of the Yak, to get involved in a fight only with an overwhelming numerical superiority. They had a lot of losses from "Yashki". The Germans flew in messers, saw the Yaks in the "front bomber" version, unaccompanied, wanted to "have fun." And those bombs were unhooked, turned around, and the Germans became sad. Such is the story, for which I bought, for which I sell. A couple of Germans survived that fight. Don't poke your nose.
        The disadvantage of YaKov is water cooling, here Lavochkin has superiority. Although both are excellent cars.
  9. evil partisan
    evil partisan 25 June 2016 16: 49
    +2
    Armament I-16 also did not contribute to this: three machine guns, including one large-caliber.
    And about the cannon modifications of I-16, did the author hear? Yes, and I-16 Type 28 and Type 29 with M-63, according to the pilots who fought on them, were not inferior to Emil at all, but they could fight with Friedrich.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 25 June 2016 17: 01
      +2
      Quote: Angry Guerrilla
      And about the cannon modifications of I-16, did the author hear? Yes, and I-16 Type 28 and Type 29 with M-63, according to the pilots who fought on them, were not inferior to Emil at all, but they could fight with Friedrich.

      The “cannon” modifications of the I-16 — the 17, 27, and 28 types — had armaments similar to the “Messerschmitt” Bf 109-4 — two ShVAK wing-mounted 20-mm cannons and two ShKAS rifle-caliber machine guns under the hood. However, due to the higher rate of fire of Soviet air guns and air guns, the mass of their second volley was higher - 3,26 kg. Unfortunately, there are relatively few such "donkeys" - 690 pieces, and by the way, not all of them survived before the war with Germany, and they were used mainly as attack aircraft against ground targets.
      .
      There was no exhaustive information about the pre-war presence of “donkeys” in parts by modification, but based on the available data, we can conclude that most of them (about 40%) were the latest and most advanced representatives of the I-16 family with 900 -power engines M-63, which had the designation "type 24" and "type 29." In second place in terms of numbers (approximately 22%) were the old and fairly worn donkeys of the 5 and 10 types with low-power 730-strong M-25 motors. Even smaller (about 18%) were cannon-and-16 types 17, 27 and 28. The remaining 20% mainly accounted for the double training UTI-4
      .
      ibid.
  10. Stas57
    Stas57 25 June 2016 16: 56
    0
    It is incorrect to compare the MiG-3 with the Messerschmitt, since the first one was a purely high-altitude fighter intended primarily for intercepting bomber aircraft. Agility was sacrificed power. “Messerschmitt” was also a fighter of medium heights and, although in speed and rate of climb, was inferior to the MiG, but was well adapted for maneuvering combat.

    you excuse me ....

    .
    AM-35A was considered high-rise here. The highest rated power - 1200 l. with. he "gave out" at five kilometers, and the power at small and medium (up to 4 km) heights was approximately 1100 - 1150 liters. with. Proceeding from this, in Soviet aviation historical literature one can come across the saying that the I-200 was created as a high-altitude fighter. However, in the documents of the Design Bureau there is no mention of such a purpose. The plane there is called a high-speed fighter, and the maximum values ​​of speed (of course, if the engine allows) are easier to achieve at high altitude, that is, where a rarefied air environment has less resistance. For the I-200, the optimum height provided by the engine was 7500 - 8000 m, and on them he demonstrated his highest “agility”. During testing, the prototype was able to accelerate to 640 km / h at an altitude of 7800 meters. But, the closer to the ground, the worse its characteristics became.

    .
    Despite the fact that the theoretically calculated ceiling of the fighter was 11500 meters (and this figure usually appears in aviation directories), the report of the Air Force Research Institute says that in reality the MiG-3 could not fly above 8000-8500 m. Due to the drop in oil pressure below acceptable limits. The AM-35A could not cope with this defect during the entire time of its serial production, and therefore the "high-altitude" characteristic in relation to the MiG-3 is illegal.


    at medium altitudes, minus aerodynamics already worked.


    The serial MiG-3, produced in the first half of the 1941 of the year, had a take-off weight of 3355 kg (in a three-machine gun version). The specific load on the area of ​​the bearing surface was 192 kg, that is, much more than the “Messerschmitts” Bf 109E and F. The specific load on the power was almost 2,8 kg, which is also much higher than both of its opponents. It is not surprising that at altitudes up to five kilometers the MiG-3 lost in speed both the Bf-109F-2 and the older Bf 109E-4. Even sharper was the difference in rate of climb. According to this indicator, the MiG-3 at low and medium altitudes was one and a half times behind Emil, and almost half as fast as Frederick! Then, when the motor power of the “Germans” began to decrease, the gap gradually reduced, but did not completely disappear until the practical ceiling was reached.

    . As of June 1, 1941, in the five western military districts, where the lion's share of MiG-3 fighters was located,

    the phrase is incorrect
    "Districts on the western border"
    "Border districts"

    As of June 1, 1941, in the five western military districts, where the lion's share of MiG-3 fighters was located, there were 845 of such vehicles


    For the first half of the 1941 year they were built 1363 instance. By the dawn of June 22 in the five border districts there were 917 “twigs” (almost 22% of the total number of fighters),

    all the info from the book I fought on a fighter. The first hit. 1941-1942

    PS. dear, you can’t kick the slayer so carelessly, you need to work more carefully
    1. mikael
      mikael 25 June 2016 23: 24
      0
      Well, how much of this amount was in assembled condition and was flown around at the time the war started?
  11. kotvov
    kotvov 25 June 2016 17: 06
    0
    And we will not repeat after Marshal Zhukov that there were few of them ”(p. 101). ,,
    Well, yes, we will repeat after the cutter.
  12. Khariton
    Khariton 25 June 2016 17: 12
    -3
    I understand it did not fit into the topic ....? They are discussing how we can be destroyed .... bully
  13. Forest
    Forest 25 June 2016 17: 41
    +1
    The MiG-3 mainly carried 1 BS-12,7 and 2 ShKAS, sometimes 2 wing BSs were also suspended. 52 cars came with ShVAK guns. I-16 carried in the bulk of the 4 ShKAS, some cars - wing ShVAKi.
  14. crazy_fencer
    crazy_fencer 25 June 2016 17: 48
    +3
    Pokryshkin started the war on the MiG-3. Check out his "Sky of War", and what he writes about MiGs.
  15. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 25 June 2016 17: 49
    -1
    As for the "donkeys" and "seagulls" - they were cool machines, extremely maneuverable and in the hands of an experienced pilot, dangerous for any enemy. German pilots had a "donkey" under the nickname "Rata" - a rat in German. And they had a saying - don't drive Rata into a corner. Because due to maneuverability, she could twist and bite. The pilots recalled the MiG-3 as an excellent and dangerous aircraft for the enemy. He "fell" a victim to his engine. The factories were reoriented to AM-38s, and it was simply impossible to produce the Mig. And in the air defense they flew until the end of the war, and they flew well. The main problem in our Air Force was the training of pilots. Too little service life, the absence of the concept of "Air Combat" in the charter of fighter aviation, and the pilots mostly honed their party political skills on the ground. What are we talking about if our fighters had a defensive circle (winter 42/43) as the main method of air combat! And when they prepared the fighters, then they began to pluck the vaunted aces of Goering.
    1. Igor V
      Igor V 25 June 2016 23: 19
      +1
      What you write nonsense! What is the point in the defensive circle of fighters, if they have all the weapons - exchange rate. The defensive circle is for bombers and attack aircraft, which had arrows. And even ShKAS, who wished there were few, fell under a massive blow.
  16. Igor V
    Igor V 25 June 2016 18: 22
    0
    Again they began to compare the incomparable. Nobody says that the ISU-122 is better than the T-34. All fighters had their own mission. Our leadership before the war and during all the years of the war was afraid of a high-altitude bomber, like the Fw-189 "frame". To have protection from it, the MIL was created. Air defense regiments were armed with them, used as a scout. The carburetor was tuned for operation at height in a rarefied atmosphere. YAKs, for the most part, were used as escort fighters, in this they had no equal. La - a heavy fighter with powerful weapons, used for patrolling. In this case, he did not need special maneuverability, he himself took up a position for an attack. Of course, there were various exceptions to these rules.
  17. orca77
    orca77 25 June 2016 18: 39
    +1
    The Germans (like the Francoists earlier) called the I-16 "Rata" - a rat. This means that you cannot drive her into a corner. Dangerously.
  18. Grach710
    Grach710 25 June 2016 18: 55
    +2
    2/3 of the vehicles were I-16 and I-153. These vehicles were inferior to BF-109 in speed and rate of climb. They did not enter maneuver battles with donkeys — if the donkey went into the tail, they simply gained speed to dive and went to the vertical, donkey I couldn’t pull the vertical engine for a long time and the carburetor was weak. The Germans simply hit from above, so such a big loss at first. Yes and LAGG they didn’t call it a lacquered coffin for nothing. Although the Germans feared it, they were ShVAK, 2 ShKAS and 2 UBS smashed to pieces.
  19. masiya
    masiya 25 June 2016 19: 12
    +1
    What is the colleague’s bazaar, as it’s now customary to say, because in the end they beat the Luftwaffe on whatever we fly, or at least PO-2, the level of training, to be honest, was approximately the same with the Fritz ... we fed them in some time after the twenties at the beginning of the thirties, and you yourself know where, as well as the tankmen ... (I’m silent about the Gestapo’s relations with the NKVD ...), and this is technology - but to whom .. but anyway, before they shared their achievements with us ... both Messers and Junkers, ships helped to build military ones and not on a feeble scale ... but no more .., failed.!? The Führer had to pay for everything - do not prepare the nasty things ...
    1. Igor V
      Igor V 25 June 2016 21: 05
      +1
      Po-2 began to fight from hopelessness, and the effect was staggering. The Germans did not find a way to deal with it, they began to form their units with similar training aircraft, but they did not succeed. Maybe the skill was not enough?
    2. mikael
      mikael 25 June 2016 23: 33
      0
      Germans, like ours, gained military experience in the initial period in Spain, but unlike the Red Army Luftwaffe had a higher and partially medium command staff who had experience in command and combat use since the First World War, we did not have such personnel, which led to errors in In the construction of the Air Force of the Red Army, our air armies as independent alliances appeared in 1942, hence heavy losses, there was no concentration of interaction forces and a single leadership
  20. Des10
    Des10 25 June 2016 20: 48
    +3
    There is no doubt - Rezun --- traitor.
    But the paradox is that all whistleblowers compared to him look like amateurs. smile
  21. Tanya
    Tanya 25 June 2016 22: 10
    +5
    You can argue for a long time about the types and number of aircraft of those terrible years, the training of flight personnel, and so on. But no one will dispute the result. Whatever our pilots fly -
    they threw the Luftwaffe from the sky.
  22. bogdan4ik
    bogdan4ik 25 June 2016 22: 20
    -1
    Author, do you generally understand the construction and tasks of aviation in the USSR? MiG-3 is a fighter. The fighter in the Red Army was tasked with destroying bombers or covering them. A fighter in the Red Army could REDUCE enemy fighters, but they did not have the right to throw their bombers and did not, unlike the Germans. If fighters were necessary to cover the advancing troops, then they did not cover the advancing troops from enemy fighters, but from attack aircraft and covered their attack aircraft. And for all these tasks, the MiG-3 was categorically good. Now let's move on to the main point - the USSR was preparing to GO. That is, destroy enemy aircraft at airfields with a sudden strike, and after that bomb German troops from clear sky. For this, the Germans were perfectly suited by the Yu-87 lapotniks, because the Red Army aviation was defeated at airfields in the very first hours of the war. Well, a comparison of 3787 Luftwaffe aircraft on the Eastern Front with 17 thousand Red Army aircraft is made according to the Soviet principle - the Germans consider all tanks, and the Red Army only KV and T-34, despite the fact that T-26 guns with a caliber of 45 mm pierced any German tank at the beginning of the war from distances from which the Germans could not conduct targeted fire, and there were only T-26s over 10 thousand. So here we can compare the BF-109, which were almost the only Luftwaffe fighter only with Migami, and Yak and LaGG, I-16 will not be considered. Although I-16, Sparkles battled BFkam fights in full. In short, the article of another feef is akin to Khrushchev’s propaganda.
    1. your1970
      your1970 26 June 2016 16: 22
      0
      "despite the fact that 26mm T-45 cannons pierced any German tank at the beginning of the war from distances from which the Germans could not conduct aimed fire," - you read less Rezvun ...
      T-26 in any projection made its way by any tank guns (even the "cannon" T-1 with armor-piercing bullets) of the Germans at the beginning of the war - for 15 mm of armor they are 15 mm ... This is actually for armored personnel carriers ...
      About the air cannon of the Germans when attacking at low level, this was almost death for "tanks".
  23. Barakuda
    Barakuda 25 June 2016 22: 59
    +1
    Forgive me the author. But you are clearly far from aviation. At least I rummaged a bit. (I used to dig books, about 20 years old) a lot of mistakes in technology, in assessing the possibilities and in general ... some kind of empty guy, not an article. sad
    And the fact that Rezun is a rare sc.o.tina, we already know everything here.
  24. Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 26 June 2016 00: 09
    +1
    Quote: Chariton
    Quote: Teberii
    No one humiliates you. But you need to learn lessons, the USE will not help you here.

    I passed horror in the 90s ... And you would need to teach Russian! hi

    It is noticeable that in the 90s ..... ahha ...

    And in / h where did you go ege ???
    1. Barakuda
      Barakuda 26 June 2016 01: 49
      0
      It’s not my business (and the young man’s question is not for me, but I’ll answer the heavenly boob)), he wrote with a pen (only ink - 7 rubles. 15 kopecks was more convenient), like everyone else. And for the Pythagorean theorem, they slapped me 4. I did not want to prove it from the principle to a mathematician in the 8th grade. Although she knew that I know.
      Then the integrals went to the tooth.
      And who from the graduates to ask the question - how much is the derivative "e" to the degree "X", and the second derivative? And the integral? Fig. Who will answer, you can check.
      Fucking EGE with his minister. am
      1. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 26 June 2016 08: 01
        +1
        SW Valery. Not at all in the subject, but I will supplement your comment. I’m 49. 5 years ago my daughter passed an ege. For the sake of interest, I looked at questions. KHE !!!! I also passed the exam, without any preparation, even if not a five plus, but a solid three, for sure. Where is the planet heading ......
        Ps. And the ink pen is yes .... :)
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. bk316
        bk316 27 June 2016 00: 37
        +2
        Quote: Barracuda
        Fucking EGE with his minister.

        EGE, not EGE.
        You exaggerate about the exhibitor, I checked when my son finished school - 9 out of 10 answered.

        Well, what at 49 for the three surrender - nothing surprising.
        Because
        - in the USSR they taught pretty well
        - the three are now very low

        Your pen was not cheap, however laughing

        But in general - the matter is not in the ege, Mr. Yasin, the father of this reform, clearly stated: you do not need the same education for everyone, for some it will be minimal (controlled by the ege), but for someone it’s normal.
        Well, he said a lot more. I heard with my own ears how he said that this state should be destroyed (USSR).
  25. Pete mitchell
    Pete mitchell 26 June 2016 02: 09
    +7
    Quote: aksakal
    Quote: samoletil18
    but also 2 Americans, by the efforts of I.N. Kodedub.
    - Well, you can’t be mistaken for heroes simply out of respect.
    This is when the Americans pretended to confuse Kozhedub's plane with the German? He then gave both poor fellows in 5 seconds laughing Didn't Kozhedub fly in a Mustang or Airacobra? As far as I remember, he was not particularly fond of domestic aircraft. I understand, I can get some cons, but I just know for sure - the Hero flew the "Americans" throughout the war and refused to change to others.


    Dear Aksakal, terre. Kozhedub flew on a shop. Of the most famous Soviet aces: Pokryshkin on Aerocobre, and Safronov died on Harricane.
    1. Barakuda
      Barakuda 26 June 2016 02: 25
      0
      What kind of Safronov are you writing about? I myself had no idea that there were many of their heroes. From North ? Yes, I myself understood - Boris.
      "In the dump, Safonov hit two cars and disappeared. Radio communications kept only brief reports of Safonov:" shot down one, "" shot down a second, "and then -" the engine. " and crashed into the water. "
      Memory monument!