Military Review

Battles at Legnitz and on the river Chaillot. Mongols in Eastern Europe

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Battles at Legnitz and on the river Chaillot. Mongols in Eastern Europe

Mongolian army at the walls of Legnica



Europe at the beginning of the 13th century was largely ignorant of the new threat that was approaching it from the East. Information slowly arriving with caravans and travelers spread slowly. Europe itself, mired in chronic cruel feudal strife, was little interested in what was happening somewhere in distant lands — it would be to put things in order. The first data, very vague, about events in the distant steppes of Asia began to reach the courtyards of the monarchs in the 20-s. XIII century, when the army of Jebe and Subedey invaded the Polovtsian steppes. Having reached the limits of Rus suffering from princely strife, the troops of the Mongol Empire in 1223 defeated the Russian troops near the Kalka River and, taking large booty, migrated back to Central Asia.

Hungarian king Bela IV became the first of the European powers that be worried. He sent a Dominican monk Julian with several representatives of other monastic orders for the reconnaissance mission to the Volga region to deal with the situation on the spot. For three years, from 1235 to 1238, Julian collected information, which he successfully returned. The stories of a scout monk about the hordes of the steppe cavalry were so impressive and eloquent that they chose not to believe. While in Europe lazily waved away from the warning speeches of Julian, in the East it became again, to put it mildly, alarming. The huge army of Batu invaded Russia, and outlandish embassies began to appear at the courts of the sovereigns. The delegates, dressed in strange clothes, with slanting eyes and faces weathered by steppe winds, presented diplomas to local authorities. From these messages it followed that a certain person who calls himself the Great Khan, demands obedience and submission from kings and other rulers. Somewhere they were surprised by such arrogance, somewhere they laughed - in other places they were even disrespectful to the ambassadors, violating diplomatic etiquette, for the same Mongolians accused Bela IV of not returning several embassies from Hungary.

But after the ambassadors from the east, the refugees began to stretch - and they became less surprised, and stopped laughing altogether. In 1239, the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan addressed the Hungarian king with the request set out in the letter. Its essence was to ensure that Bela took on its territory Polovtsy fleeing from the invasion, in exchange for their acceptance of Catholicism. Prior to this, the Polovtsians professed a certain mixture of Orthodoxy and worship of the Turkic deity Tengri. In the autumn of 1239, Bela IV met Kotyan with almost 40 thousands of tribesmen at the border of his state and gave them permission to settle in Hungary. However, the local feudal nobility was frightened by the too great gain of royal power (before the absolutist “state is me” it was still more than four centuries) and arranged a conspiracy. On the eve of the Mongol invasion of Europe, in 1241, who converted to Catholicism, Kotyan and his family members were treacherously murdered in Pest. Polovtsi renounced Catholicism and migrated to the Balkans.

Nor was the alliance with the Hungarian kingdom of Russian principalities. Galician-Volynsk Prince Daniel Romanovich and Chernigovsky - Mikhail Vsevolodovich persistently sought this union. King Bela IV under various pretexts from any agreements evaded. There was no interest in the joint preventive curbing of the aggressor and other European states. The German Emperor Frederick II Staufen, an exquisite expert on languages ​​and strategic intrigues, publicly joked Mongolian letters demanding submission - he modestly asked the Great Khan to appoint him a court falconer. In fact, according to some reports, he entered into secret correspondence with the Khan, intending to use this force in an ever-growing conflict with the Pope. The pontiff Gregory IX himself was obviously well aware of the threat from the East, for at that time the Catholic Church had perhaps the best agency in Europe. The pope had his own views on the Mongolian military machine, hoping to use it in the anti-Arab direction as an instrument of indirect action in the Middle East policy. In the north, the Livonian Order, which had an impressive military force, was preparing for an armed version of Catholicism in the Baltic States and northeastern Russia, and, focusing on the realization of their ambitions, showed no interest in confrontation with some Mongols. Neglecting the impending danger, which in its significance could not outweigh the traditional parochial feudal disassembly, cost Europeans dearly.

East vs. West


Heavy Mongol warrior and his equipment


The military power of the Mongols was to some extent weakened by the stubborn resistance of the Russian principalities, but it was a significant force. When the Mongol khans were a sufficient number of scientists and geographers, so the command of the nomads was aware of the lands lying to the west of Russia, to a much greater extent than the Europeans knew about the newcomers from the east. Since the main blow was delivered to Hungary, we can assume that Batu planned to use the Hungarian valley as an operational and forage base in the center of Europe. Presumably, the general concept and plan for the raid on Eastern Europe was developed by Subedei, one of the best commanders of the Mongol Empire. He envisaged an invasion of Hungary from several directions in order to force the enemy to split up his forces, thereby reducing the level of resistance.

Three tumens (the main Mongolian tactical unit numbering 10 thousand soldiers) remained as an occupational contingent on the territory of Russia. Two Tumen under the command of the grandchildren of Genghis Khan Baidar and Kadan were to make a reconnaissance and sabotage raid in the north-west direction towards Poland. It was intended only to try the Poles for strength, to find out how capable the local troops were for defense, and then turn south to the main forces. With one tumen, the younger brother of Baty Shiban was to sneak around the northern edge of the Carpathian Mountains and enter Hungary from the north. Batu himself army, consisting of no less than four tumenov, struck through Transylvania, diverting attention, and the author of the plan Subedey, moving along the bank of the Danube, with the main forces was preparing to invade the kingdom from the south. Some researchers believe that the onslaught on Europe focused on Hungary, since Batu was only supposed to limit herself to it. Another version is that the defeat of Bela IV was only a stage on the path of further expansion. Try the Christian army to meet Batu or Subedei; in any case, it substituted its rear forces. The operation was well thought out.

The problem for the Europeans was also the fact that almost no one knew anything about the methods and methods of conducting military actions used by the Mongols. Of course, the term "Mongols" has a clearly collective character, since the army, which appeared at the beginning of 1241 near the walls of Europe, was a real international cocktail, which included representatives of various nations and nationalities. The avalanche that broke out of the boundless steppes of Mongolia, like a sponge, absorbed whole strata of various cultures. Together with them knowledge and skills were acquired. Those that were useful, were reworked and applied by conquerors in practice. European knighthood will have to face a completely unknown opponent, experienced, skilled, skilled and courageous. It was not a shapeless hoot mob of savages scattering when faced with a serious obstacle. A well-organized, prepared and, most importantly, experienced army was advancing towards Eastern Europe. She was bound by iron discipline, spilled blood in abundance, and the ruthless will of the khans. Countless victories with rare defeats contributed to the proper level of morale.

The main part of the Mongolian army consisted of cavalry - light and heavy. There were also elite units from the immediate protection of the commander, keshikten, a kind of guard. The main weapons Mongolian warrior was a composite bow of Yak horns and wood, length 130 – 150, see. The weapon had great power and range: arrows of length 90 – 95, could hit targets at a distance of about 300 meters, and at a closer distance were able to penetrate armor. Each warrior took with him a few bows and quivers to them - the whole rifle set was called Saadak. Heavy cavalry with warriors in armor, armed with swords, maces and shields, entered the battle at a decisive moment when light cavalry had exhausted the enemy properly, bringing him to an appropriate condition. Army personnel were divided according to the decimal system: ten, one hundred, one thousand and the largest tactical unit - tumen, consisting of ten thousand. The army was staffed at the rate of one warrior out of ten people. This rule extended initially to the ancestral Mongolian lands, and then, as they advanced, and to a part of the conquered. A rookie came to the service with his weapon and several horses. The Mongols were famous for their mastery of the siege and had a sufficient amount of equipment used in the assault on fortresses and cities.

Onslaught

At the very beginning of 1241, the Mongolian army invaded Poland according to the original plan. In January, they broke through to the Vistula, where Lublin and Zavikhost were captured and plundered. An attempt to hastily knit the local militia and knighthood to resist ended in the defeat of February 13 under the Turs. It was here that the Europeans for the first time experienced the Mongol tactics unprecedented before. The initial onslaught of the Poles was strong, and the light cavalry of the supposedly unorganized and wildish enemy began to retreat in complete frustration. Inspired by the chase, the pursuers, without even noticing it, turned into game surrounded on all sides and were killed. March 10 Baidar forced the Vistula at Sandomierz, after which, having isolated a detachment under the leadership of Kadan from his forces, sent him to destroy the region, he himself went to Krakow. The natural desire of the Poles to cover the Kraków area led to a new, larger-scale 18 March battle near Khmilnyk. This time Baidar was opposed by the Kraków voivode Vladimez Klemens and the Sandomierz contingent under the command of Pacosław. The Polish troops were demoralized even before the start of the battle by the actual desertion of Krakow prince Boleslav Shameful together with his mother, the Russian princess Gremislava Ingvarovna, and his family. Out of harmly, the prudent prince went to Hungary.

And again the Mongols showed themselves as the most skilled warriors. Since the Polish troops were concentrated in Krakow, it was decided to lure them out of there. A mobile group of light cavalry broke into the suburbs, arranged robberies and ruin there. The enraged Poles, seeing that there were few enemies, could not give up the temptation to rush in pursuit. The Mongolian detachment allowed it to pursue several tens of kilometers, skillfully without breaking the distance. After which the pursuers were surrounded by horse archers and exterminated. A lot of Lesser Poland died (Lesser Poland - historical region in southwestern Poland) chivalry and both governors. The remnants of the army dispersed, some of them ran to the city, causing a disorganizing confusion. Panic began to spread throughout the area. Krakow, left without defenders and almost without residents, was captured on March 22 and is already subject to thorough ruin.

Having finished with Krakow, Baidar moved on - Oder was waiting in front of him, which still had to be crossed - bridges and crossings were destroyed in advance. The construction and search for boats, rafts and other watercraft somewhat delayed the Mongolian army. By the time the vanguard of the Mongols appeared at Wroclaw, its inhabitants had already prepared for defense. The city itself was abandoned and partially burned, and the inhabitants, along with the garrison, took refuge in a well-fortified fortress. There were concentrated stocks of provisions in case of siege. An attempt to capture Wroclaw on the move failed - the defenders repelled the onslaught of the enemy with heavy losses for him. Not succeeding in a swift attack, the Mongols retreated to Baidar's main forces for regrouping. By this moment, the diversionary campaign of this northern group had already attracted too much attention. The local authorities, who only recently with obvious skepticism listened to stories about hordes of nomads sweeping away everything in their path and perceiving them as stories about the mythical kingdom of John Presbyter, now faced this disaster face to face. The enemy was no longer somewhere in the distance - he ruined the country. And a reaction, albeit belated, followed.

Battle of Legnica


Jan Matejko. Heinrich the Pious


Prince Henry the Pious, recognizing the threat as very significant, began to assemble a large army. Troops moved from different places to it. The brother of the deceased Krakow voivode Sulislav with a detachment arrived from southern Poland. The contingent from Upper Silesia was commanded by Mieszko. Heinrich himself stood at the head of the Lower Silesian troops. The foreign forces in the combined army were under the command of Boleslav, the son of the Moravian margrave Dipold. Incidentally, there were members of the Templar Order. In any case, Grand Master Ponce d'Obon, in a letter to French King Louis IX, said that in the battle of Legnica, the Order lost about 500 people, of which 6 are knights. There was also a small detachment of knights of the Teutonic Order. The fact is that the father of Heinrich the Pious, Heinrich I the Bearded, transferred to the administration of this order a certain piece of land in exchange for help. Prince Heinrich appealed for help to his neighbor, the Czech King Wenceslas I, and he promised to send an army. Heinrich decided to try his luck in a field battle - his army, most of them infantry, had a large number of experienced warriors. Traditionally, a big stake was made on hitting a heavy knightly cavalry - in the European customs of warfare, this was one of the main axioms of victory. The difficulty of the situation was that it was not the Europeans who fought against Henry. He led his army to Legnica, a city in Silesia, where Vaclav I also moved, having decided to personally lead the army.

Baydar was just one day's walk from the city. Learning about Heinrich's approach and receiving information from well-placed intelligence about the threat of his unification with the Czechs, the Mongolian commander set out to meet the enemy in order to impose on him a battle and prevent the merging of the two armies. He informed about his decision with letters from Baty and continuing to repair the devastation in Mazadia Kadan.


Knight of the Teutonic Order


The forces of the opposing sides are generally comparable in number, but differ in composition. According to some reports, Baidar had 1 thousand skirmishers to worry and lure the enemy, 11 thousand horse archers and 8 thousand heavy cavalry. In total, his army is estimated at almost 20 thousand people. Heinrich and his allies could oppose this to 8 thousand heavy cavalry, 3 thousand light cavalry, 14 thousand infantry. Apparently, the Europeans were planning to repel the enemy attacks with their light cavalry, to bleed him, and then deliver a crushing blow to the heavy knightly cavalry.

Opponents met on 9 on April 1241 near Legnica. Baydar placed his skirmishers from the “luring group” in the center, on the flanks were horse archers. Heavy cavalry was stationed at some distance in the rear. Heinrich in front put his light cavalry, behind which the heavily armed horsemen stood behind the second echelon. The infantry was the third line. The battle began with the exchange of ridicule and insult, which was soon supplemented by mutual shelling from bows. The allies began to get more, so their light cavalry rushed to the already rather annoying skirmishers. However, successful at first, the attack began to blur - the enemy on his short horses drove away for some distance and continued to fire again, all the time keeping distance with the allies. Then Henry ordered heavy cavalry to enter the battle, which was immediately executed.

Encouraged by the avant-garde, regrouping, resumed the onslaught, and the Mongols, seeing the change in the situation, began to rapidly retreat, spreading along flank directions. The Allies began the pursuit of the seemingly fleeing enemy. And then the Mongols used one of their many unusual methods for Europeans: they made a smoke screen of pre-prepared bundles of wood, grass and brushwood. Puffs of smoke began to harbor the retreating skirmishers, and the entire cavalry armada of the Allies sped right through the clouds of smoke, seeing nothing around.


Legnica Battle Scheme


At this time, on the flanks of the horse archers began to surround the enemy's cavalry, generously showered her with arrows. When the inertia of the attacking knights was extinguished, completely fresh Mongolian heavy cavalry, hitherto in reserve, hit on them, exhausted by shelling and poorly oriented in the situation. Unable to withstand the onslaught, one of the Polish detachments attempted to flee, but only weakened the formation.

The blow of the Mongols recently turned the furiously advancing Europeans to flight. The infantry, seeing nothing because of the clouds of smoke and actually playing the role of extras, did not even suspect of an ever-increasing defeat. At last, running knights appeared and the Mongols who chased them tirelessly. This turned out to be a complete surprise - running horsemen crashed into the dense rows of their infantry, a landfill began, which quickly gave rise to panic. The system collapsed, and the Allied army ran, no longer representing the organized force. A real massacre began - the Mongols did not really need any prisoners. The rout was complete. He himself initiated the campaign Heinrich the Pious died in battle. Being late just a day to the battlefield, Vaclav, having learned about the defeat of an ally, preferred to retreat urgently. The killed soldiers of Baydar cut off their ears and put them into large bags, of which there were nine of them. The body of Prince Heinrich was decapitated, and his head impaled on the peak. With all these attributes of intimidation, the Mongols approached Legnica, demanding to surrender the city, but the residents, rightly deciding that it was better not to count on the mercy of such visitors, put up serious resistance and repulsed several attacks. Having ruined the neighborhood, the steppe inhabitants left.

Hungary. Battle of Chaillot

The information obtained by the monk Julian caused, of course, some skepticism, but the Hungarian king took certain measures to increase the country's defense capability. Some fortresses were reconstructed, stocks of weapons accumulated. When the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan granted his emigration together with his fellow tribesmen - and not because of the passion for travel, but because he was driven away from the native nomads by the Mongols, in Hungary they were alarmed not a little. The situation was complicated by the numerous and ambitious feudal nobility, who constantly intrigued against royal power and stubbornly did not want to strengthen the center, which resulted in the treacherous murder of Kotyan.

The first information about the appearance of the Mongols on the eastern outskirts of the court received in January. The king of Bela IV who was then in Pest entrusted Palatina (the highest official in Hungary before 1853 after the king) to Dionysius to set up outposts in the Carpathians. 10 March 1241 came the news of a large-scale invasion of a large Mongolian army through the so-called "Russian Gate" (Veretsky Pass). It was Batu with a whole staff of experienced military leaders - his army numbered tens of thousands of people. The conflict with the nobility, who dreamed that the royal army did not exceed the number of palace guards, did not allow time to push reinforcements to the border. On March 12, the limited forces of Dionysius were scattered, and the highly mobile enemy began to flood the country. Already on March 15, Batu's vanguard, under the command of his younger brother Shiban, reached the Pest district, where the king frantically assembled an army.

Baty who came up camped about 20 km from the main forces of the Hungarians. The nomads constantly kept the enemy in suspense with their presence, and in the meantime, flying units ravaged the neighborhood, gathering rich prey, provisions and fodder. 15 March they captured the city of Vats, a little later Eger. In the meantime, Bela's forces were increasing - considerable reinforcement in the person of the army of the Croatian duke Koloman approached him, and now their total number reached, according to various estimates, no less than 60 thousand people. Opinions on further actions caused controversy. Part of the leadership led by Archbishop Uholin of Kolochka required the most active actions. The zeal of the humble servant of the church was so great that he personally, without the approval of the king, made a sabotage attack on the Mongol camp with a couple thousand soldiers. There the bishop, of course, was ambushed and returned with only a few people. This initiative got away with him, because not everything was smooth at the headquarters of the Christian army: the vassal of Bela, the Austrian duke Friedrich Babenberg, quarreled with his overlord and departed to his homeland. Realizing that further inaction only loosened the army, and being confident of his superiority - now the king had 60 thousand against 30 thousand from Batu, - in early April, Bela ordered the combined army to come out of Pest. Not wanting to take the battle on conditions that were not favorable to them, the Mongols retreated. Overloaded by a convoy and a large proportion of infantry, the Hungarian-Croatian army slowly dragged after. A few days later, the main forces under the command of Subedei approached Batu: the Mongols had established excellent communications through the system of messengers, which allowed them to assemble an attack fist at the right time in the right place at the right time.

After a week of stalking, Bela camped by the river Chaillot. The camp was surrounded by a fence and wagons. On the left flank of the position was a bridge. For some reason the king decided that the enemy would not be able to force the river, and left only one thousand soldiers to cover it. Baty decided to surround the enemy and destroy it. He separated the corps of Subedei, who was ordered to secretly force the river to the south at night and go around the enemy camp. Khan himself spent the whole day on April 9 in a disturbing allied activity. On the one hand, he did not let them rest and kept them in suspense, on the other, the enemy saw that the Mongols had become much smaller, and cheered up, lowering their guard. April 10 passed in preparation for the operation.


Scheme of the Battle of Chaillot


On the night from 10 to 11 in April, Subadei secretly forced Shayo under the plan and actually went to the allied army in the flank and rear. In the morning, widely using stone-guns, Batu successfully knocked down a barrier from the bridge and captured it. Soon the Mongolian cavalry surged through it to the other side. The news of the appearance of the enemy caught the Hungarians and Croats off guard. While the alarm was sounding, the steppe dwellers took convenient positions on the heights, showering arrows in the camp. Soon there were also stone throwers. By two o'clock in the afternoon, according to a contemporary of events, historian archdeacon Thomas Splitsky, the camp was tightly blocked by the Mongols, who massively used lighted arrows. Resistance began to weaken, and the army began to embrace panic. The flight of individual feudal lords with detachments began, and soon grew into utter chaos. Baty prudently did not completely encircle the enemy, leaving him a small loophole, otherwise the allies could start to fight to the death, and then his army would have suffered completely in vain losses.

The Mongols were masters of not only tactical retreat, but also knew how to competently and stubbornly pursue the enemy. The crowd, a few hours ago, the former army, which had lost everything - from the fighting spirit to the banners and the wagon train - were now being driven towards Pest, from where it had only recently come out. On the shoulders of the running Mongols broke into Pest. The city was looted and burned. The rout was complete. Losses of Hungarians and Croats are estimated at more than 50 thousand people. The kingdom lost not only the army, but also the king. Bela IV found no other way but to flee to his vassal, the Austrian duke Frederick Babenberg. The demoralized king gave him for his help in the fight against the invasion and, probably, for providing asylum almost all the treasury (10 thousand marks) and three counties. The seriously wounded Duke Koloman with the remnants of his unit retreated to Croatia.

Unfinished campaign

The Mongol detachments, almost without meeting resistance, continued the unimpeded devastation of the country. The greatest advance of the Mongols to the west was recorded in the spring of 1242, when the Tumen of Kadan, capturing the city and the fortress along the way, reached the Adriatic. Batu himself with Baidar, who approached him from Poland, took up the devastation of the Czech Republic. And then the steppe was taken and looted many cities. Caught in the forced emigration, Bela IV tried to raise the resonance due to the extreme plight of his state, and indeed of all of Eastern Europe. He sent letters asking for help to two of the most powerful figures of that time: the German Emperor Frederick Staufen and Pope Gregory IX. Naturally, absorbed in exploring the relationship between themselves, these politicians had nothing to do with the moans of the Hungarian king. The emperor responded sympathetically that, say, the Mongols were very bad, and the Pope cited concerns, confining himself to words of support and comfort. Austrian hospitality soon dried up too, and Bela was forced to flee to Dalmatia. It is not known how events would have happened further if, at the end of 1241, Batu did not receive an emergency message about the death of Great Khan Ugedei. Now, the highest Mongol nobility were to gather at the kurultai in order to elect a new ruler of the colossal empire. The activity of the Mongols in Europe is gradually decreasing. Despite the activities of individual, even large, detachments, a gradual departure to the East begins. There are several versions of the termination of the campaign against the West, and one of them is that the death of Ogedei was only a reason for the retreat of the army, worn out by the battles and heavy losses incurred in the struggle against the Russian principalities in Eastern Europe. Perhaps there were plans for a repetition of such a campaign for the future, but in the light of more and more civil strife covering the Mongolian empire, this plan was not implemented.

Shortly after the departure of the aggressors, King Bela IV returned safely to his official duties and did much to strengthen the royal power. Already in 1242, he made an army against the duke of Austria, forcing him to give the county actually taken from the Hungarians. Batu, or Batu-han, settled in the capital of his ulus Saray-Batu, actively participating in the political life of the Mongolian state. He no longer made any military campaigns to the West and died in 1255 or 1256. Europe, frozen in a fit of horror before the hordes of impetuous steppe nomads, after their departure, took a deep breath and engaged in the usual routine feudal squabbles. The vast lands of Russia stretching to the east were waiting for hard, tragic times full of blood, the grass of Kulikovo Field covered with blood and the frozen banks of the Ugra River.
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  1. kalibr
    kalibr April 25 2016 07: 35
    +22
    Very good and solid historical material without speculation and hoaxes!
    1. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB April 25 2016 09: 21
      +7
      Thanks for such articles!
    2. alicante11
      alicante11 April 25 2016 13: 55
      +7
      Very good and solid historical material without speculation and hoaxes!


      M-dya already. I've decided to do arithmetic 3 tumens in Russia, 4 tumens near Batu, 2 tumens in Poland and 1 tumen in the Carpathians. And this is just "auxiliary forces" - 100 thousand. Along the way, again, two hundred thousand "Mongols" were counted. Moreover, this army is already "battered" in Russian lands. What size was she BEFORE the spanking?
      And such an armada is based on ravaged Russia? I'm not even talking about logistics, where in the devastated lands in general to take supplies for 100-150 thousand soldiers? Or were they taken from the Volga, and there were already "Mongolian" cities? Or did the supply line come directly from Mongolia?

      And most of all "delivered"
      Soon, stone throwers were pulled up there.
      Direct field artillery, if not mountain artillery. The stone-throwers of the time were transported disassembled, if not at all, at the site of the siege. So their assembly required a significant amount of time.
      1. Riv
        Riv April 25 2016 15: 06
        -3
        This is because a fairy tale. :)
        In Russia came, according to historians, from 30 to 60 thousand Tatars (forget the word "Mongol", fu!) Kiev stormed well if 20 thousand. Where did 100 come from ???
        But about stone throwers - just quite real. Torsion throwing machines at that time were quite widely known in Europe. There is nothing complicated in their device and they are not too heavy.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 25 2016 15: 43
          +7
          Quote: Riv
          In Russia came, according to historians, from 30 to 60 thousand Tatars (forget the word "Mongol", fu!) Kiev stormed well if 20 thousand. Where did 100 come from ???
          But about stone throwers - just quite real. Torsion throwing machines at that time were quite widely known in Europe. There is nothing complicated in their device and they are not too heavy.

          Wow already 30 to wassat That is, in Russia there was no strength to defeat 30k people who naturally could not fight everything.
          1. alicante11
            alicante11 April 25 2016 15: 56
            +1
            Wow already 30 to wassat That is, in Russia there was no power to defeat 30k people who naturally could not fight everything


            Well, given the fragmentation - it’s possible. However, the reasons for the success of the Tatars must, IMHO, still be sought in their alliance with Northern Russia - Veliky Novgorod. Otherwise, really logistics and supply issues are not resolved. Just as completely incomprehensible is the lap of the Tatars from Novgorod.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 25 2016 16: 11
              +4
              Quote: alicante11
              Well, given the fragmentation - it’s entirely possible

              Even with this, it’s unrealistic just as you wrote because of logistics. Ancient people, of course, there were still those bloodsuckers, but even they would not feed people with slanting eyes.
              1. Riv
                Riv April 25 2016 17: 37
                +2
                ... and in the Battle of Kulikovo, as some historians tell us, generally ten thousand people on both sides fought. And it seems that even the opinion is justified: there really are nowhere to place 100 kilo-units on the field, not to mention countless hordes of Mamaev. Even now there is no place when there are fewer forests.
                Are you surprised by exaggerations in the annals?
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 25 2016 21: 40
                  +4
                  Quote: Riv
                  Are you surprised by exaggerations in the annals?

                  I am surprised by historians who, for the sake of delirium about the Mongol and the yoke, are ready to name any number just to leave everything as it is. It was 100, then 60, now 30, and then there will be 10 laughing Do you think that is how 100k was called by historians of the 18-19th centuries? No . It’s just that with 30k digital they were laughed at. Seichas don’t ride horses, the landscape has changed and modern people are ready to believe in 30k.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv April 26 2016 11: 04
                    +1
                    I don’t understand ... You don’t believe current historians, so why believe those who did the same a hundred years ago? And why then not believe the antique? Those who valued Darius’s army of a million people.
                    Oh, okay ... You, Evgeny Vaganovich, again you forgot to log in.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator April 27 2016 04: 51
                      +2
                      Quote: Riv
                      I don’t understand ... You don’t believe current historians, so why believe those who did the same a hundred years ago? And why then not believe the antique? Those who valued Darius’s army of a million people.
                      Oh, okay ... You, Evgeny Vaganovich, again you forgot to log in.

                      You need it, you need to buy glasses and read what I write. Can you take some pills?
                      Are you pursued by Evgenia Vaganovich?
              2. Orionvit
                Orionvit April 25 2016 22: 22
                +6
                "Ancient people of course still had those bloodsuckers, but even they would not feed people with slanting eyes." I totally agree. Our ancestors clearly knew where their own and where others were. It's one thing if a neighbor's prince came to fight on internecine matters, so he is still his own, he can be paid tribute if he asks well. And then people of a foreign language and tribe. The ancient Slavs could have been anyone, but not harmless rams, and they would not have tolerated strangers for three hundred years.
            2. Visitor
              Visitor 25 October 2016 10: 36
              0
              It is just understandable. According to the weather - a month or two and there will come a spring thaw, in which in Russia all movement practically stopped. The Horde (a good word, if you don't like either the "Mongols" or the "Tatars") should have known all this, since it was correctly noted in the article that intelligence in the Horde was well established since Genghis Khan. In terms of losses: there were practically no field battles, well, they defeated the Muromo-Ryazan army, then the detachment of Evpatiy Kolovrat, and the battle on the City. The rest of the time the siege and storming of fortresses means inevitable losses, but where are the sources of replenishment in such a deep raid from? And the Novgorod Kremlin was not made of wood - it was made of stone, and even at that time Novgorod surpassed in population any city that had been ravaged by the Horde before. And here is the choice: to get stuck for another two or three months off-road and lack of food for the siege of Novgorod with the troops weakened by losses, or to return? It is logical to avoid danger and return back through the half-ruined Rus, where, according to experience, large forces cannot be found. There were no lovers of taking risks among the Horde.
          2. Morrrow
            Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 26
            +1
            For that time, this giant army is akin to the millionth today.
        2. Cro-Magnon
          Cro-Magnon April 25 2016 19: 38
          +6
          Then answer yourself ... why then the Europeans did not use them against the aggressors, since they are well-known and easy to make? It's just that Europeans are backward savages who do not know how to fight, but the "Mongols" are WHAT WHAT ...! This is especially noticeable in their current descendants!
        3. Chiropractor
          Chiropractor April 26 2016 13: 16
          +1
          But how much did these small torsion cars beat?
          And how much did they weigh? To carry something anyway is not in a backpack behind me - carts are needed. And you, for a minute, have 60 thousand proud Europeans on your shoulders. Their infantry can accelerate. But your carts with artillery - not really. Yes, you also carry stones with you - the battle doesn’t always take place near a quarry, but you don’t have time to pick up the necessary stones.

          And about the impartiality of the article:
          "Delegates dressed in strange clothes with slanting eyes and faces weathered by the steppe winds ..."
          Where did it come from? Where is at least one parsun with slanting eyes?
        4. Rico1977
          Rico1977 6 May 2016 22: 59
          +1
          Nothing that a little later Timur fought with the Mongol Khan and from 500 thousand to 1 million people participated in the battles? and it’s still a low bar count. There, all of Central Asia was going on - by all the people, as during the great migration. The army of the Mongols absorbed hundreds of Asian peoples, while many moved closer to the West. The Horde really went there, all of Asia, and they were able to multiply even then. They lived on the pasture, robbery and wagon train, almost autonomously. The supply chain was rarely built. I carry everything with me. So those forces that came to Hungary were a trifle compared to the armies of the Mongols who went to the Middle East and who were already fighting for power among themselves. They only went to punish Bella, because he killed the ambassadors - a very terrible crime among the Mongols. And they turned back, firstly, because a serious struggle for power began within the Horde, and secondly, after the golden and enlightened, civilized and richest China, Samarkand, Bukhara and Baghdad, this impoverished dirty shell with fucking self-conceit - Europe - was a Poverty stinking and completely a goal not worthy of victory. There was nothing to take. The smelly, close, impoverished cities, with smelly impoverished inhabitants, and shit flowing right through the streets, the Mongols did not like at all. And when the scouts reported that everything was just as bad further, Batu decided not to go any further. Neither fame nor wealth. About the armies of the West, the Mongols generally spoke derogatoryly as cripples.
          1. Morrrow
            Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 28
            +1
            That's bullshit. There weren’t so many people then.
        5. Rico1977
          Rico1977 6 May 2016 22: 59
          0
          Nothing that a little later Timur fought with the Mongol Khan and from 500 thousand to 1 million people participated in the battles? and it’s still a low bar count. There, all of Central Asia was going on - by all the people, as during the great migration. The army of the Mongols absorbed hundreds of Asian peoples, while many moved closer to the West. The Horde really went there, all of Asia, and they were able to multiply even then. They lived on the pasture, robbery and wagon train, almost autonomously. The supply chain was rarely built. I carry everything with me. So those forces that came to Hungary were a trifle compared to the armies of the Mongols who went to the Middle East and who were already fighting for power among themselves. They only went to punish Bella, because he killed the ambassadors - a very terrible crime among the Mongols. And they turned back, firstly, because a serious struggle for power began within the Horde, and secondly, after the golden and enlightened, civilized and richest China, Samarkand, Bukhara and Baghdad, this impoverished dirty shell with fucking self-conceit - Europe - was a Poverty stinking and completely a goal not worthy of victory. There was nothing to take. The smelly, close, impoverished cities, with smelly impoverished inhabitants, and shit flowing right through the streets, the Mongols did not like at all. And when the scouts reported that everything was just as bad further, Batu decided not to go any further. Neither fame nor wealth. About the armies of the West, the Mongols generally spoke derogatoryly as cripples.
        6. Morrrow
          Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 25
          0
          The Tatars are a neighboring tribe with the Mongols; Genghis Khan cut them out long before the campaigns.
      2. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer April 25 2016 16: 32
        +4
        Quote: alicante11
        I'm not even talking about logistics, where in the devastated lands in general to take supplies for 100-150 thousand soldiers? Or were they taken from the Volga, and there were already "Mongolian" cities? Or did the supply line come directly from Mongolia?

        There were no supply lines in the modern sense - food was mined on the conquered lands + taxes from the lands left in the rear. The nomadic army could not stay in one place for a long time - not to feed. Of course, some of the cattle roamed after the army, but for this it is necessary to constantly change the pastures. Therefore, the Tumens went in different directions, uniting for "general" battles or sieges.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 25 2016 21: 42
          -2
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          There were no supply lines in the modern sense - food was mined on the conquered lands + taxes from the lands left in the rear. The nomadic army could not stay in one place for a long time - not to feed. Of course, some of the cattle roamed after the army, but for this it is necessary to constantly change the pastures. Therefore, the Tumens went in different directions, uniting for "general" battles or sieges.

          This is nonsense. No one in the world could do it either before or after, no one.
          1. Visitor
            Visitor 25 October 2016 10: 41
            +1
            But what nonsense, sir? Even under Genghis Khan, the Horde was invariably divided into the left and right wings, i.e. at least two cases. And about the nomads it is correctly said that the Horde on the Ugra remained nomadic, only the Crimean khans settled in the palaces, and even then the bulk of the Crimeans remained nomads.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 25 October 2016 15: 51
              +1
              Quote: Visitor
              But what nonsense, sir?

              Because it never happened again. There were no 100.000 nomadic army with their cattle and without supplies. For example, in Napoleonic warriors where armies participated with about the same number or more, they had their own supply bases and lost essentially because they lost them. He could not feed his army by taking food from local peasants, apparently he was an idiot .. m, unlike the Mongols.
              Now essentially. There are two Mongol corps of 50 k to a forest country where a very rare population, which is taught by the constant warriors between the princes, when the enemy approaches, immediately falls into the forest along with all the property. So where to get food to the Mongols? Tales about the cattle which they ate were left for children, at the same Napoleon such herts died even before they reached Smolensk from lack of grass, although they went in the summer. The Mongols walked in winter.
              So world history shows that you write nonsense.
              The Crimean Tatars were a nomadic people and their main income is human trafficking, robbing neighbors and buying them off so that there are no raids, and they were also hired to fight either against the Poles or the Cossacks. That is how the nomads lived, and of course, when they raided Russia, they never had 100.000 people, much less they never subordinated Russia politically, it was impossible.
      3. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia April 25 2016 17: 22
        +5
        To understand how the army of Batu was supplied, read the notes of Europeans about the campaigns of the Crimean Tatars. There 150 000 riders quietly reached Oka.

        Further, the tumen in 1242 could not necessarily be complete. That is, the tumen in 1237, someone from Chingizids had 10 000, by the invasion of Hungary he melted to 5000, for example. But this did not stop being a tumen.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 25 2016 21: 44
          0
          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          There, 150 horsemen calmly reached Oka.

          Call me these authors? Do you even understand what 150 thousand are?
          1. SokolfromRussia
            SokolfromRussia April 26 2016 14: 50
            +1
            Christoph Manstein, in 1727-1747 was in the Russian service. De Boplan from 1630 to 1648 was in Polish service. They wrote their notes on their return home.

            Fully imagine. In the 1571 year, for example, Moscow burned about 120 000 Tatars. Almost as many came to Russia a year later and were defeated at the Young.

            However, fomenkovtsy explain something useless.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 26 2016 17: 09
              +1
              Quote: SokolfromRussia
              Christoph Manstein, in 1727-1747 was in Russian service. De Boplan from 1630 to 1648 was in Polish service. They wrote their notes upon returning to their homeland

              That is, they were not witnesses, but with whose words did these figures write? Great. You do not tell how many, according to Western historians gentlemen, Comrade Stalin shot the people?
              Quote: SokolfromRussia
              Fully imagine. In the 1571 year, for example, Moscow burned about 120 000 Tatars. Almost as many came to Russia a year later and were defeated at the Young.

              Apparently you can’t imagine. How many cavalry did Napoleon have and how many did it come to Borodino, at least tell me?
              120.000 horsemen, that is, this is a minimum of 180.000 horses. Can you tell me where did they get such a mob and how were they then kept at home? So the bumavga suffers everything, you can write 300.000. Who counted them then wassat
              Quote: SokolfromRussia
              However, fomenkovtsy explain something useless.

              So you slept ubo..g..ii. What does Fomenko have to do with if we are talking about military affairs?
              1. Heimdall47
                Heimdall47 April 26 2016 20: 35
                +2
                What does Fomenko have to do if we are talking about military affairs

                Are you Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny or Mamontov to speak authoritatively about military affairs? Did you lead cavalry armies into battle, provide for their contentment? Or are you a great Mongolian horse connoisseur?
                I suppose neither one nor the other. So you should quietly and thoughtfully listen to the research of specialists, many of whom have devoted these issues to their whole lives.
                If I have a poor idea of ​​weaving bast shoes, it would be strange for me to express my opinion on this issue.
                So you have to be more modest.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 27 2016 04: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: Heimdall47
                  Are you Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny or Mamontov to speak authoritatively about military affairs? Did you lead cavalry armies into battle, provide for their contentment? Or are you a great Mongolian horse connoisseur?

                  What would you need to know to fight? You will be surprised, but this is not so. There are so many smart books and charters where the whole thing is described.
                  A horse is a horse. It needs to be raised and grazed, which means that each territory can grow and feed a certain number of horses.
                  Quote: Heimdall47
                  So you should quietly and thoughtfully listen to the research of specialists, many of whom have devoted these issues to their whole lives.

                  Everything has long been described and studied.
                  Quote: Heimdall47
                  If I have a poor idea of ​​weaving bast shoes, it would be strange for me to express my opinion on this issue.

                  So I'm not talking about bast shoes.
                  1. Heimdall47
                    Heimdall47 April 27 2016 08: 22
                    +2
                    What would you need to know to fight? You will be surprised, but this is not so.

                    Of course. When a layman gets into a topic that he doesn’t understand at all and begins to teach experts - it looks ridiculous and disgusting. I often come across this when working. Usually this is committed by the authorities, who believe that the position makes them omniscient.

                    There are so many smart books and charters where the whole thing is described.

                    What other charters? During the time of Ivan the Terrible, a warrior slept on bare ground and ate a mash of flour with water. And the fast was observed in the troops.
                    A modern soldier will die in a week from such a life. Now and then there were completely different criteria for life. A man of the past lived on the brink of hunger and he needed much less than anything - in general everything.
                    A horse is a horse

                    Have you even finished school?
                    There is a pony, there is a percheron, there is a trotter - and all are absolutely different in quality.
                    So I'm not talking about bast shoes

                    Better write about them - maybe it’s better.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator April 27 2016 15: 04
                      +1
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Of course. When a layman gets into a topic that he doesn’t understand at all and begins to teach experts - it looks ridiculous and disgusting. I often come across this when working.

                      As I understand it, are you a specialist here?


                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      During the time of Ivan the Terrible, a warrior slept on bare ground and ate a mash of flour with water. And the fast was observed in the troops.
                      A modern soldier will die in a week from such a life.

                      And here is a soldier? Talk about fodder for livestock in the first place. Well, lastly, you will be very surprised, but back in the middle of the 19th century, soldiers on campaigns ate breadcrumbs. I advise you to read about the life and service of soldiers of the early 19th century.
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Have you even finished school?
                      There is a pony, there is a percheron, there is a trotter - and all are absolutely different in quality.

                      If you graduated from school, then name the breed on which as many as 240k heads were able to collect the Tatars. I wait and then we will discuss their possibility, food, etc.
                      Only you can start sniffing and you won’t name the breed laughing
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Better write about them - maybe it’s better.

                      No, this is your topic. You have some links to some very important specialists and you’ll probably find bast shoes.
                      1. Heimdall47
                        Heimdall47 April 27 2016 15: 27
                        +1
                        As I understand it, are you a specialist here?

                        No, they didn’t guess. That is why I do not calculate the amount of food for a Mongolian horse and find it difficult to estimate the number of riders.
                        This should be done by specialists that we are not.

                        Although, excuse me, maybe you are a genius and you can express your authoritative opinion about any branch of science and knowledge.
                        Let's talk about the Gauss method at the same time and about the collider? Maybe it was built somehow wrong? laughing
                        And here is a soldier? Talking about livestock feed first

                        The conversation here is that you should not climb to evaluate another era with modern criteria.
                        And that even people, depending on the conditions of their upbringing and living, consume a different amount of resources and have different pain thresholds and endurance. And you mentioned the charters - they were written at another time for other people.
                        What about horses? Here a pony, for example, eats an order of magnitude less percheron. And their characteristics are radically different. Therefore when you speak
                        A horse is a horse. It needs to be raised and grazed, which means that each territory can grow and feed a certain number of horses

                        - This is obvious nonsense. You can not equalize the Arabian trotter and the Mongolian horse. Maybe they have in common - only what they ride.
                        Only you can start sniffing and you won’t name the breed

                        I’m not a zoologist and I won’t even puff.
                        . Well, lastly, you will be very surprised, but back in the middle of the 19th century, soldiers on campaigns ate breadcrumbs.

                        I’m talking about this - you can’t apply the norms of the Russian army of the 19th century to the Russian army of the 21st and to the Mongolian of the 13th century.
                      2. co-creator
                        co-creator April 27 2016 20: 49
                        +2
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        No, they didn’t guess. That is why I do not calculate the amount of food for a Mongolian horse and find it difficult to estimate the number of riders.
                        This should be done by specialists that we are not.

                        Well, if you do not do this and do not even want to know, then do not say that your numbers are correct. Everything is simple. People moved to cars less than 100 years ago, and the entire amount of food of different breeds has long been there. Why is this revelation incomprehensible to you.
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        Although, excuse me, maybe you are a genius and you can express your authoritative opinion about any branch of science and knowledge

                        This question with numbers was asked by historians a long time ago. The answer was as follows. Historians have recognized. that the Mongols could not have an army of 100-200k people and reduced it to 30-60k people. They can’t do less, because this already causes a smile about the conquest of Russia by such a number. You continue to stand at the figure of 240k. horses without explaining where they were taken.
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        The conversation here is that you should not climb to evaluate another era with modern criteria

                        A horse ate three hundred years ago, and eats seichas. Nothing changed. You feed poorly, and it serves poorly.

                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        And you mentioned charters - they are written at other times for other people

                        The minimum forage for the horse is the same everywhere. At the pasture, a horse will never gallop tens or hundreds of kilometers with a rider.
                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        What about horses? Here a pony, for example, eats an order of magnitude less percheron. And their characteristics are radically different. Therefore when you speak

                        So no one is fighting a pony. For example, Cossacks fought on stunted horses because they were hardy and ate less than long-legged horses. Just less does not mean little.

                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        A horse is a horse. It needs to be raised and grazed, which means that each territory can grow and feed a certain number of horses
                        - This is obvious nonsense. You can not equalize the Arabian trotter and the Mongolian horse. Maybe they have in common - only what they ride.

                        What nonsense? What Mongolian horse does not eat anything? You watch films about modern Mongolia how horses eat there and how many of them are in the herd. how to graze. They have not changed anything for thousands of years. If there is no grass for the horse, then it will die and therefore, for example (from the heads), for example, 1 horses should graze for 10 km. If it is 11, then the horses will be less enduring and lose their qualities.

                        Quote: Heimdall47
                        I’m talking about this - you can’t apply the norms of the Russian army of the 19th century to the Russian army of the 21st and to the Mongolian of the 13th century.

                        So today, people can fight on breadcrumbs. What didn’t they starve in Chechnya? Only the animals that move the cargo and people like eating, for example, 5 kg of oats a day 500 years ago, are going today. Otherwise, it will die quickly.
            2. SokolfromRussia
              SokolfromRussia April 26 2016 22: 30
              +2
              They were eyewitnesses and both participated in battles with the Tatars. Manstein, in particular, took part in campaigns to the Crimea.
              Not 180 000. Each Crimean Tatar had 2-3 horses. So, in the battle of the Young they had at least 240 000 horses. They were considered the Khan and Murza, when the troops were reviewed before the march. Murza could lead and tens of thousands of soldiers. If Khan spoke, the number increased at least one and a half times.
              Well, who are you to challenge the opinions of contemporaries? Horse breeder with a time machine? No, the person who simply read himself of someone else's nonsense, who imagines himself a great whistleblower.
              To ignore you.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator April 27 2016 04: 20
                +1
                Quote: SokolfromRussia
                They were eyewitnesses and both participated in battles with the Tatars. Manstein, in particular, took part in campaigns to the Crimea.

                You have seen it for years. Who could Manshtein see wassat You yourself read what you write.
                Quote: SokolfromRussia
                Not 180. Each Crimean Tatar had 000-2 horses. So, at the battle of Molodi they had at least 3 horses.

                I was just afraid to write about horses for 240k, but apparently you are not capable of it. Why didn’t they answer my questions? You can write any number.
                Quote: SokolfromRussia
                Well, who are you to challenge the opinions of contemporaries? Horse breeder with a time machine? No, the person who simply read himself of someone else's nonsense, who imagines himself a great whistleblower.

                Who am I? A man who is not used to believing a word. Tell me please, how did a contemporary calculate the number of Tatars? Just curious .
                Do you know what figures contemporaries called about the battle of Borodino?
                Do you know how many contemporaries counted those killed during the Second World War?
                Will you continue to list such cases or is it enough?
                There is no need to expose, all adequate people understand that 240k horses are bullshit.
                Quote: SokolfromRussia
                To ignore you.

                What else do you have? You cannot answer questions, because you understand what this will lead to.
                1. Heimdall47
                  Heimdall47 April 27 2016 09: 55
                  +3
                  Tell me please, how did a contemporary calculate the number of Tatars? Just curious .

                  The testimonies of the prisoners, among which there could be high-ranking officials, were the high command staff who knew exactly the size of their troops.
                  Visual assessment is an approximate course, but when an experienced person conducts it, its value grows.
                  Even the state of sakma, through which the cavalry passed, told the experienced guard (not you) something.
                  Although I see it is useless to explain something here. smile
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 27 2016 15: 11
                    +1
                    Quote: Heimdall47
                    The testimonies of prisoners, among which could be high-ranking officials - the highest command staff who knew exactly the size of their troops

                    What prisoners. Any information or anything else significant? Or again guess how with numbers?
                    Quote: Heimdall47
                    Visual assessment is an approximate course, but when an experienced person conducts it, its value grows.

                    Visually observe 120 k people with stirrup horses and heaps of wagons? However, you are a dreamer. What did they line up, Russian governors traveled around them to count and then went to fight?))

                    Quote: Heimdall47
                    Even the state of sakma, through which the cavalry passed, told the experienced guard (not you) something.

                    240K horses understand? What nafik sakma, there should be asphalt.

                    Quote: Heimdall47
                    Although I see it is useless to explain something here.

                    So you just need to give facts, and not someone else's assessment. You are directly naive young man think that in the old days they never lied about the number of the enemy. Seichas lie, but then no. laughing You at least read a summary about the Donbass and about the numbers of soldiers and the losses of official propaganda on both sides.
                    1. Heimdall47
                      Heimdall47 April 27 2016 15: 45
                      +1
                      What prisoners. Any information or anything else significant?

                      Well, of course there is. Although I do not understand what doubts there may be that during wars there are prisoners of war on both sides. Including from high command.
                      Here's an example of the Battle of Molody:
                      During the attack of the guard regiment, the oprichnina nobleman of Suzdal, the boyar’s son Temir Alalykin, captured the commander-in-chief of the enemy army, “the bloodsucker of Christian Divea-Murza [25]”, the head of the Nogai clan Mansurov. A certain “Astrakhan prince” was captured.
                      Do you think Divey Murza could not tell the Russians about the number of troops coming? Shy probably was smile Ivan Vasilievich had such special people, to whom he laid out everything as a spirit without a trace.
                      So you just need to give facts,

                      Facts do not hang in the air. They are expressed by specific people. If you do not like them, then you must refute them conclusively.
                      Visually observe 120 k people with stirrup horses and heaps of wagons? However you are a dreamer

                      Well, the Tatar cavalry broke through the Russian defense at the river crossing and drove into the interior of the country without being distracted by finishing off the remnants of the Russian defense. We have a bunch of surviving witnesses who visually observed the whole horde. She walked past them - you know? The wars that have been observed are experienced people; they may have seen a dozen of these hordes in their lives. And they can give a rough estimate.
                    2. co-creator
                      co-creator April 27 2016 20: 19
                      +2
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Do you think Divey Murza could not tell the Russians about the number of troops coming?

                      As I understand it, what documents, copies of the interrogation and witnesses are? Bugalteriya where every warrior is put on contentment. laughing
                      Or is it written in some Russian chronicles written by the prince's propagandists? Will we take a word only because they are contemporaries? Well then, let's believe the words of Napoleon that 70 Russians fought against his 000. He is a contemporary.
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Facts do not hang in the air. They are expressed by specific people. If you do not like them, then you must refute them conclusively.

                      If there are no facts, and everything is based only on the notes of a certain person, then the value of this paper is not very high. The fact is that the Crimean Tatars could not even have 100.000 horses, they simply did not physically.
                      For example, Napoleon, before going to Russia, collected 120.000 horses from ALL of Europe, of which only 30.000 reached Borodino. This is despite the fact that he was walking along a road that was already heavily populated and could take fodder from a local people. This is a fact. You retell the tales of monks and chroniclers of those years when the overstatement of the army was the norm of those years, and even until the beginning of the 18th century it was practiced.
                      By the way, you said what kind of horses the Tatars had.
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      Well, the Tatar cavalry broke through the Russian defense at the river crossing and drove into the interior of the country without being distracted by finishing off the remnants of the Russian defense. We have a bunch of surviving witnesses who visually observed the whole horde.

                      Why write this crap? Troll? Not a single person will be able to visually observe 120k in battle. Even at the parade, it will take a lot of time. What are the witnesses? Here Ukrainians say that in the Donbass they are fighting with the army of the Russian Federation and several thousand have already been killed. They will confirm this to you without batting. What do we take them as witnesses?
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      The wars that have been observed are experienced people; they may have seen a dozen of these hordes in their lives. And they can give a rough estimate.

                      What are experienced people. The prince said wrote 120 to and the chronicler wrote. The fact that this is nonsense does not bother anyone.
                      The selectivity of people like you has always been striking. For example, it is alleged that the Tatars easily took 100-200k horses somewhere and at the same time the Rusich fought 80% on foot. Well, they could not even pick up and maintain 30.000 horses. The question is why they could not, if there are hundreds of thousands of them running across the steppe bully
                    3. Heimdall47
                      Heimdall47 April 27 2016 20: 41
                      +1
                      As I understand it, are there any documents, copies of interrogation and witnesses?

                      I don’t have anything of this, because you asked a question (I don’t really)
                      Tell me please, how did a contemporary calculate the number of Tatars? Just curious .

                      I replied -
                      1. testimony of prisoners. In war, prisoners are usually taken and interrogated.
                      2. Visual observation
                      3. Indirect evidence (state of sakma)
                      Is it enough?
                      From two options - to believe about the number of Tatars to you or chronicles / eyewitnesses - I choose the second. Because there is no one to believe more, and you are clearly not friends with your head.
                      All - the question is closed. You have to go to the hospital - the injections have already missed the evening. crying
                    4. co-creator
                      co-creator April 28 2016 01: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      I replied -
                      1. testimony of prisoners. In war, prisoners are usually taken and interrogated.
                      2. Visual observation
                      3. Indirect evidence (state of sakma)

                      This is not an answer, but an assumption no more. It turns out. that a contemporary 1.Took a word to the enemy.
                      2. He had apparently an aircraft and could observe all the military from a height.
                      3. He wrote 120, and he could write 300.

                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      From two options - to believe about the number of Tatars to you or chronicles / eyewitnesses - I choose the second. Because there is no one to believe more, and you are clearly not friends with your head.

                      Apparently you do not know how to read or do not consider it necessary to do this otherwise if you didn’t do such idiotic input b. I repeat . A piece of paper that has no evidence costs nothing from the word at all. I gave you an example of Napoleon, which really reached Moscow. Above I wrote how historians reduced the Mongols from 200k to 30-60k precisely because of logistics and provision. Although apparently a crest they also do not need evidence. what they said on TV is true.
                      You need to look at the fact no more. You just don’t need it, it’s easier to believe what they wrote, rewrote hundreds of years ago as 3-4 chroniclers kept by the prince.
                      Quote: Heimdall47
                      You have to go to the hospital - the injections have already missed the evening.

                      You really need to start reading various literature, and especially about horses. For example, go to Kazakhstan and ask the locals what yes and how it is in horse breeding. Maybe you’ll start to try to analyze. and not believe the pieces of paper.
    3. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 30
      +1
      See Klim Zhukov at the Goblin. Such numbers are fantastic.
  • Morrrow
    Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 24
    +1
    100 thousand were not. It was 30-40. However, for Europe it was a gigantic army, for them the limit was 10 thousand.
  • novel66
    novel66 26 September 2016 12: 19
    +2
    Didn't the "heavily armed Mongolian horseman" add to the mood?
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 25 2016 15: 40
    +5
    Quote: kalibr
    Very good and solid historical material without speculation and hoaxes!

    The whole story is a hoax. And it’s just copied from textbooks.

    Stalin how many people destroyed?
    1. Riv
      Riv April 25 2016 17: 38
      +4
      Stalin? Billions of personally executed. :)
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 25 2016 21: 45
        +2
        Here I am about it bully
  • Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon April 25 2016 19: 32
    +3
    I especially liked about the batteries of horse-drawn stone-throwing artillery accompanying the cavalry ... and about the good orientation in the terrain where the "Mongols" have never been even as merchants ... and about the excellent communication and the presence of the general staff with scholars and geographers ... solid historical material without speculation and hoaxes!
    Article plus for a high-quality artistic presentation of possible historical events!
  • madjik
    madjik April 26 2016 04: 00
    +2
    something I don’t see guys for whom the Mongols are a myth, but there is some kind of tartaria laughing well, Kazakhs with their Shyngis Khan laughing as well as ukrov and arians with asgard of isirian laughing Where are you alternative?
  • 2s5giacints
    2s5giacints April 25 2016 07: 56
    +7
    Now they’ll run into the Tartar-Aryan superethnos and say, “You're lying!” We gave the great Fomenko a light for Europe. But seriously, it’s a very good article without reaching out for any average
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 25 2016 08: 02
    +5
    On the way back, the Mongolian troops plundered and burned out the settlements of Serbia and Bulgaria. Thank you, Denis ... clearly, sensibly, without conspiracy theories ... smile
  • 2s5giacints
    2s5giacints April 25 2016 08: 03
    -2
    Now the Tartaro-Aryan superethnos will pay attention and you’ll say you are lying! It’s with the great Fomenko that we gave a light to Europe. Article +, informative and nonsense
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 25 2016 15: 45
      0
      How you got stuck))
  • Alekst
    Alekst April 25 2016 09: 43
    0
    I also like Gumilyov’s version about the western campaign of the Mongols. Although, as I understand it, in this article there is simply a description of this campaign.
  • baudolino
    baudolino April 25 2016 09: 47
    +2
    Good article. But it would not hurt to mention that the Mongols persecuted the Polovtsians, whom they ousted from the Black Sea, and who settled in Hungary. And the Polovtsy, in turn, blended in due time for the Merkits - the bloodlines of Genghis Khan.
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 25 2016 10: 21
    +9
    The author pleased with a quality article!
    Of course, you can say a lot about the allegedly Mongols pursued the Merkits, and then the Kipchaks, and then the Russians and Hungarians. BUT - the fact is that it was apparently just a simple slogan that had a good influence on the ideology of the Mongols ("we are waging a righteous war according to tribal laws" and not just robbing). After all, oddly enough, but most of its existence, the Empire of Genghis Khan fought with the settled peoples - Qin and Sung China, the state of the Tanguts, the state of the Khorezmshahs, Russia, etc. Against this background, some persecutions of certain remnants of nomadic tribes are nothing more than a pretext for war and a convenient basis for slogans.
    1. alebor
      alebor April 25 2016 11: 15
      +8
      By the way, Ancient Rome also officially waged, mainly, "defensive wars", which resulted in the huge Roman Empire.
      1. ermak.sidorov
        ermak.sidorov April 25 2016 13: 28
        +7
        NATO, too, seems to be a defensive structure, but it came to the point that one could already add the territory from Pskov to their territory ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. co-creator
      co-creator April 25 2016 15: 52
      +2
      So the nomads always robbed settled peoples, because only there you can capture rich prey.
      About the Mongols smiled.
    4. Orionvit
      Orionvit April 25 2016 21: 56
      0
      I get my sight from these "historians". Where is Europe, and where is Mongolia and China. Even by the standards of the 21st century, this is very far away. But it turns out that a certain Genghis Khan and his comrades were running here and there, then there to fight here. And so for three hundred years, some "Mongols" terrified in the area from the Atlantic Ocean to the quiet. You guys will already decide who the "Mongols", "Tatars" were, and the rest of the alien people. And then you start to analyze historical events, and you fall into a stupor.
  • Lex.
    Lex. April 25 2016 11: 01
    +10
    Europe, frozen in a fit of horror in front of hordes of fast-moving steppe nomads, took their breath away and took up the usual routine feudal squabbles 150 years later, the Turks would smash Europe and Europe did not make any conclusions
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 25 2016 15: 53
      -1
      TURKISH THEN REAL GUYS, but these are not clear who.
  • sibiryak10
    sibiryak10 April 25 2016 11: 37
    +4
    Three tumens (the main Mongol tactical unit of 10 thousand soldiers) remained as occupation forces in Russia.


    This is unlikely. The Mongols did not introduce the occupation administration in Russia, and they began to take tribute only 5 years after the invasion.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 April 25 2016 13: 58
      +6
      This is unlikely. The Mongols did not introduce the occupation administration in Russia, and they began to take tribute only 5 years after the invasion.


      No, this is a convoy service, so that convoys with koumiss and tortillas from Mongolia, all sorts of Yevpatia Kolovrat, are not devoured and not emptied.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 25 2016 15: 56
      +4
      Quote: sibiryak10
      Three tumens (the main Mongol tactical unit of 10 thousand soldiers) remained as occupation forces in Russia.

      Where did they stand?
      Quote: sibiryak10
      The Mongols did not introduce the occupation administration in Russia, and they began to take tribute only 5 years after the invasion.

      Because there was no occupation laughing There is no administration, there is no occupation and vasity. Russia paid the ransom (tribute) to the Crimeans even under Peter I so what? Why does no one say that Russia was a vassal of the Krymchaks?
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 25 2016 22: 02
        0
        Because the Crimean khan could not sweep away the king, and the Horde khan easily removed any prince.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 26 2016 01: 20
          +1
          Quote: Cartalon
          Because the Crimean khan could not sweep away the king, and the Horde khan easily removed any prince.

          Why did Crimeans get paid then?

          How could the prince be removed if you did not control him? The prince will easily run away into the forest. and then everything will return. So they have done all their lives. There should always be control over the vassal, and for this a governor with imperial guard should sit there.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol April 26 2016 05: 11
            +1
            paid tribute, choosing between a pogrom and a tribute of two evils.

            could run into the forest, but more often dutifully appeared on the first whistle and crawled into the yurt
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol April 26 2016 05: 33
              0
              Why did Venice, for example, pay the Turks? What, did the Ottoman governor sit in it?
              1. co-creator
                co-creator April 26 2016 06: 37
                0
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Why did Venice, for example, pay the Turks? What, did the Ottoman governor sit in it?

                Venetian rulers traveled to Istanbul for permission to rule? Well, tell me a couple.
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol April 26 2016 07: 53
                  0
                  Well, why did the Doges pay tribute, huh? there was nowhere to put money?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 26 2016 11: 14
                    +1
                    That their trade would not suffer. Why to be at war if it is possible to pay off.
            2. co-creator
              co-creator April 26 2016 06: 35
              0
              Quote: Tlauicol
              paid tribute, choosing between a pogrom and a tribute of two evils.

              Well done .
              Quote: Tlauicol
              could run into the forest, but more often dutifully appeared on the first whistle and crawled into the yurt

              That is, in your opinion, the princes were all du..r..ak? Instead of escaping, they crawled into a yurt from which many types did not return laughing Excuse me, are you one of these ... well, you fool ... kov?
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol April 26 2016 08: 03
                0
                Watch the speech, wise guy.

                it’s your opinion they were all fools and ran into the forest from unknown people. and many peoples in history paid tribute even without the presence of occupiers or governors on the ground
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 26 2016 11: 13
                  +2
                  Paying tribute and being a vassal are two different things.
  • SSV
    SSV April 25 2016 11: 38
    0
    Very interesting! Thank!
  • King, just king
    King, just king April 25 2016 12: 03
    +6
    How many have read all sorts of historical works, I was always surprised by the authors. Mongol tactics are presented as a revelation in military science. What a revelation? A false retreat followed by a blow to the flanks, is that something, or is it a "round dance" of mounted riflemen? And then, and another, and everyone.
    Despite the fact that the defeated Hungarians, the nomads themselves used it, and the Pechenegs, and the Polovtsy, but everyone who is not lazy, including dog-knights and Byzantines, and all. There is nothing new here.
    Again, where are the people in sheepskin coats and treuhas, on stunted little horses, who can turn out to chase many hours away? Give the Mongol Tatars!
    1. sibiryak10
      sibiryak10 April 25 2016 12: 40
      +6
      And how do you imagine the training of European military leaders at that time?
      There were no academies. All under the guidance of experienced comrades and in real battles. Well, if you're lucky, then in your youth they will study books about the ancient Greek and Roman generals.
      But if you yourself have never encountered such tactics, how can you recognize where the flight is and where the ambush is luring?
      European armies did not practice this at the time.
      What a long way to go!
      In the 1941 year, our military commanders already in the 2 year knew how Germany was fighting, but could not prepare effectively for such tactics. Until experience was gained, battles were lost.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 25 2016 13: 13
        +3
        Quote: sibiryak10
        Well, if you're lucky, then in your youth they will study books about the ancient Greek and Roman generals.

        This is a very, very rare case, and even then for a later time. And so - all the tactics - I am a baron, you are my king, but we are both knights - you do not go ahead of the army - a coward! And all - all tactics - heap forward. Even the "palisade" was not always possible to build, since the horses were different. That is why the Templars and Hospitallers were put in the vanguard and rearguard, because there was at least some kind of discipline there!
      2. alicante11
        alicante11 April 25 2016 14: 04
        +2
        In the 1941 year, our military commanders already in the 2 year knew how Germany was fighting, but could not prepare effectively for such tactics. Until experience was gained, battles were lost.


        Well, firstly, the tactics of the Wehrmacht have evolved, this can be seen even in the composition of the tank divisions, which are constantly "relieved" of tanks. And secondly, the tactics of a deep operation were well known to the Red Army, as well as the method of counteraction - strikes on the flanks of the wedge. This is exactly what was done, for example, the South-Western Branch near Rovno-Dubno. Problems were in the execution of tactical decisions - at the South-Western Front and in the general superiority of the fascists at the ZF.
      3. co-creator
        co-creator April 25 2016 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: sibiryak10
        In the 1941 year, our military commanders already in the 2 year knew how Germany was fighting, but could not prepare effectively for such tactics. Until experience was gained, battles were lost.

        What nonsense. And here is the tactic? If you have equipment without fuel and all the planes at the border airfields, then what does the tactics have to do with it?
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 26 2016 05: 13
          0
          and so until the age of 42 yes July 42 is also a tactic? or again there wasn’t enough fuel?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator April 26 2016 06: 39
            +1
            Quote: Tlauicol
            and so until the age of 42 yes July 42 is also a tactic? or again there wasn’t enough fuel?

            At 41, the entire cadre army died and the Germans, before 42, were simply stronger in all respects. The Germans did not use any special tactics. They just knew how to make quick movements, but we did not.
      4. Morrrow
        Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 52
        +1
        The Franks knew how to fight and they were the strongest. Philip II defeated the combined Anglo-German army. Franks could defeat the Mongols.
    2. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder April 25 2016 22: 50
      +3
      to fight on horses not to drive a total var. try to keep the line at least 50 horses at a trot, gallop and stop when necessary, turn around, arrange a false retreat and strike again. everything is simple in words, but in practice you need to constantly train. Klim Zhukov, listen. it happens smoothly on paper, in fact, there are ravines.

      pysy. recently read again about the battle of Yaryshmarda 1996 April. everyone also knows that when they ambush a column of armored vehicles, they shoot at the head vehicle and at the closing one, but they still fall for this trick every time.
  • Mentat
    Mentat April 25 2016 13: 06
    +5
    Around the Mongol raids a lot of myths and science fiction are wound outside specific historical documents.

    For example, the conquest of Russia. However, modern genetic studies have not revealed any signs of incest, which must have appeared if a real conquest, like in China, really took place.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 25 2016 14: 06
      +1
      And did they reveal traces of mixing with the French? The real Mongols in Russia from the strength of 20 thousand came in, what are the traces of the two companies.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 25 2016 16: 02
        +3
        Quote: Cartalon
        And did they reveal traces of mixing with the French? The real Mongols in Russia from the strength of 20 thousand came in, what are the traces of the two companies.

        Of course revealed. In Russia there are a lot of descendants and surnames of the French since then.
        How could 20 conquer Russia, and even winter in the forests with deep snow? Do you think historians in the 18-19th century just called that figure in 100-200k? They, unlike you, still lived under horse-drawn power.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 25 2016 17: 28
          +1
          For reference until the 17th century, Moscow troops fought mainly in the winter
          1. Cro-Magnon
            Cro-Magnon April 25 2016 20: 00
            +3
            Correctly noticed! Only in the fall, the crops were first harvested, fodder ... hay ... lard ... butter ... crackers ... the meat was salted and dried ... And then on a camping trip! But Batu said to his wars: we’ll come to Russia in the autumn and select everything we need to feed on the spot! And they went easy!
          2. co-creator
            co-creator April 25 2016 21: 47
            +1
            And when did the nomads fight? We are talking about them.
            1. Cro-Magnon
              Cro-Magnon April 25 2016 22: 06
              +2
              About them Rodiminki, about nomads! Desperate children go on a winter hike lightly, in full confidence that they will win and get from the enemy everything necessary for their survival! And if you had not won? Would you die of hunger on the way back ?!
              1. co-creator
                co-creator April 26 2016 01: 24
                +1
                So I also know about it. Therefore, there have always been raids when the grass grows.
        2. Klos
          Klos April 26 2016 05: 48
          0
          Foreigners (in particular the French) were invited to the Russian service. It is logical to assume that many of them created families in Russia.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator April 26 2016 06: 40
            +1
            How many were invited? A couple of thousand?
        3. Chiropractor
          Chiropractor April 26 2016 13: 10
          +3
          Quotation: blooded man
          In Russia there are a lot of descendants and surnames of the French since then.


          namely, since 1812, many thousands of captive custodians were settled in villages ...

          Russia is especially peculiar in that it did not keep prisoners in concentration camps, but at home — that of hostages, that of prisoners. Not everyone returned back after the war; many grew rooted in our land. They were not rotted - they were sorry.

          The 20th century changed morals, and spoiled the order ...
      2. Cro-Magnon
        Cro-Magnon April 25 2016 19: 54
        +2
        And the population of all Russia was 2-3 million people and the violence continued for allegedly 240 years ... would there really be no genes ??!
    2. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder April 27 2016 11: 34
      +1
      Quote: Mentat
      However, modern genetic studies have not revealed traces of “incest”


      The mix of Asiatic nomads and Europeans does not allow culture and mentality. Tea is not Arabs and Negroes. We still have Kazakhs with a clan up to the seventh generation all remember, I think the Mongols have the same thing, tribal system. The Indians besides us have this, by the way their ancestors also came from Asia. This is the first. And secondly, look at the Spaniards of 7 centuries under the Arabs, from the 8th century to the 15th, do they look like Arabs? no! or the Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, also 5 centuries under the Ottomans, do they look like Turks? also no! understand that it is one thing to conquer in order to loot, and put on a tribute, which was done in Russia, another thing to quietly and silently assimilate, as the Chinese did with their conquerors or as refugees are doing now.
  • Riv
    Riv April 25 2016 14: 41
    +1
    Damn ... Well, what other "Mongols"? What other "Mongolian steppes"? There was no Mongolia at that time. There were no "Mongols" people either, but there was a crowd of Turkic nomadic clans, one and a half thousand years cutting with each other throughout Asia, each with its own name and show-offs. And Genghis Khan, of course, was not a Mongol.

    In Tajikistan, there is the Tau Mogol mountain range. The area around (a rather large area) is also called "Mogul". Hence the self-name. So the chest is not easy to open, but very simple. Moreover, "mogul" means "head of the clan", "elder" in Turkic. That is, it is not even a fact that it was from there that Genghis Khan came. It’s just not the first and not the last time that the army was named after its leader. Compare: "Hitlerites", "Pugachevites", "Wrangelites".

    "Mughals" simply meant "people from the line of the elder."
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 18: 58
      +2
      There were no Huns either?
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 25 2016 14: 48
    -7
    Quote: anodonta
    Not Qin, but Jin, do not confuse.

    With this Chinese rephrase, the devil himself will break his leg, in general, these discrepancies were mainly established precisely by European historiography in order to highlight individual periods. wink

    Quote: anodonta
    Genghis Khan also did not fight with the Song Dynasty.

    I wrote - "the empire of Genghis Khan" - i.e. not necessarily himself, but also his successors, Chinggis cleverly negotiated with Sung China, and they opened a second front, stabbing their northern "beloved" neighbor in the back.

    Quote: sibiryak10
    The Mongols did not introduce the occupation administration in Russia, and they began to take tribute only 5 years after the invasion.
    Where did the firewood come from? case not an alternativeist ali Mongolophil? fellow The system of "Basquiat" with the "darugachi" detachments was established immediately.

    Quote: King, just king
    The tactics of the Mongols are presented as a revelation in military science. Well, what a revelation?
    "In war, the simplest is the most difficult to do." I read that the Byzantine officers simply cursed their commanders who fought in such a way that, contrary to the regulations and direct instructions of military theorists, they fell into Turkish traps and managed to lose.

    Quote: kalibr
    That is why the Templars and Hospitallers were put in the vanguard and rearguard, that there was at least some semblance of discipline!
    Not only that. They still did not run, and did not surrender, and therefore the commander of the crusader army was confident in the firmness of the flanks or, accordingly, the vanguard / rearguard.

    Quote: Mentat
    . However, modern genetic studies have not revealed any signs of incest, which must have appeared if a real conquest, like in China, really took place.
    Well, I’ll disappoint you a little. In the Volga region, for example, traces of the Mongoloid genetic substrate are extremely significant, and even in the Slavic lands proper east of Vladimir and even more so east of Nizhny Novgorod such a situation takes place.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 25 2016 16: 08
      0
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      Well, I’ll disappoint you a little. in the actual Slavic lands east of Vladimir, and even more so east of Nizhny Novgorod, this situation is the case.

      Can you prove it respected?
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      In the Volga region, for example, traces of the Mongoloid genetic substrate are extremely significant,

      You probably do not know. but there is the steppe. The Russians didn’t settle there en masse until the end of the 19 century.
      1. Riv
        Riv April 25 2016 17: 46
        0
        Che you write nonsense. Kostroma is not on the Volga or what? The city was founded in the 12th century. And below it, too, there were pretty Russian settlements. I'm not talking about ushkuynikov who mastered both Kama and Vyatka.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 25 2016 21: 54
          +1
          Quote: Riv
          Kostroma is not on the Volga or what? The city was founded in the 12th century. And below it, too, there were pretty Russian settlements. I'm not talking about ushkuynikov who mastered both Kama and Vyatka.

          Actually, he writes about the middle and lower Volga. Kostroma and Nizhny Novgorod is the upper Volga and there are no Mongolian traces there. Different narrow-eyed Udmurts are indigenous peoples.
          1. Riv
            Riv April 26 2016 11: 01
            0
            Why did they forget to mention the Bulgars? Never narrow-eyed. Now their last ones will run in and start swearing. However, this is not about that. The Russians took possession of the Volga region much earlier than the 19th century. Astrakhan, for example, was captured by Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. The archers who seized the city settled there, rebuilding the city and the fortress. Already in the 17th century, more than 10.000 inhabitants, completely Russians, became victims of the plague epidemic. What other "mass character" is needed?
            A deuce to you for the history of his native country, Evgeny Vaganovich.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 27 2016 04: 33
              +1
              Quote: Riv
              Why did they forget to mention the Bulgars? Never narrow-eyed.

              I know . This comrade from above already in the Lower found the genetic code of the Mongols.

              Quote: Riv
              The Russians took possession of the Volga region much earlier than the 19th century. Astrakhan, for example, was captured by Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. The archers who seized the city settled there, rebuilding the city and the fortress. Already in the 17th century, more than 10.000 inhabitants, completely Russians, became victims of the plague epidemic. What other "mass character" is needed?

              10.000 what huge numbers laughing And fake, but oh well. From Simbirsk to Astrakhan there were huge steppes, a wild field. Exactly the same as the mid-19th century, there was a Wild Field in the Black Sea region south of Ekaterinoslav. So, camels came to these lands, Kazakhs and various other steppes roamed. Katya settled the Germans there in the 18th century, and only after the liberation of the peasants did the Russians begin to settle in these places. This is a historical fact.
              Quote: Riv
              Two for the history of your native country, Evgeny Vaganovich

              It is unlikely that a loser can give ratings to others.
  • Prometey
    Prometey April 25 2016 19: 16
    0
    The article is undoubtedly interesting, the author is well done. But stamps wander for decades from one labor to another. Well, what battered forces after the raid on Russia? Why did they have something to talk there? After the ruin of several dozen wooden towns and settlements, in which less than 10% of the population lived? Well, the writer Yang wrote a good historical novel, and wrote the way he wanted to see it.
    It is very interesting to read about the super hardy short-legged Mongolian terminator horses, who devote all horses from China to the Middle East. The Boers during the Boer War fought on ponies, only for the reason that it was easier to hide them than a large horse.
    Well, the main question is who are these guys and where did they come from? smile
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit April 25 2016 21: 21
    +3
    Quote: Cro-Magnon
    Then answer yourself ... why then the Europeans did not use them against the aggressors, since they are well-known and easy to make? It's just that Europeans are backward savages who do not know how to fight, but the "Mongols" are WHAT WHAT ...! This is especially noticeable in their current descendants!

    I agree. There may have been such events, but decide who the "Tatar-Mongols" are. Have you ever seen a Mongol? They only learned in 1926 that they were Mongols. If they went to fight in a horde to the west, then they did not go further than present-day Kazakhstan. It can be seen in Kazakhs, but not in Russians and Europeans. On the territory of Russia and Europe, they were even more absent, and who had to be figured out. But official academic history continues to be delusional.
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 19: 02
      +2
      Have you seen the Hun or Scythian?
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit April 25 2016 21: 36
    +4
    Quotation: blooded man
    Then we must admit that there was no conquest and just write about it EVERYWHERE including in history textbooks. Take care.

    How can loyal princes be left if you do not control them?

    What textbooks? What are you speaking about? Then it turns out that academics from history received their titles and salaries in vain? So all this time we were brazenly lying? Nobody will ever do such a thing, I mean the Academy of Historical Sciences. The fact that in the official version of the story there are a lot of gaps and no connections do not concern them. Science is where measurements begin, and how to measure history? History has long turned into a club of storytellers supported by the existing government. In my eyes, over 25 years in Ukraine, history has been brazenly rewritten five times, and the further the more absurd. And this happens in all countries, everywhere has its own story. I am not a big fan of alternative history, but there people at least do something and explain something.
  • Orionvit
    Orionvit April 25 2016 22: 03
    +3
    Quote: 2s5giacints
    Now they’ll run into the Tartar-Aryan superethnos and say, “You're lying!” We gave the great Fomenko a light for Europe. But seriously, it’s a very good article without reaching out for any average

    And you please do not jerk. I’m not a big fan of Fomenko and Nosovsky, but the guys are at least doing something, trying to explain, the truth is sometimes funny. Well, we did not give a light to Europe, I agree, then tell me who? Only keep quiet about the Mongol.
  • 10 inches
    10 inches April 25 2016 23: 28
    +3
    Yesterday, Mama and Tokhtamysh were at the scene of the battle. Honestly, in those fields, there’s no way to place the 500 soldiers declared in the battle. Well, there aren’t such fields there even now. But even then. Yes, and one more thing - 000 rivers. so kondurcha now then in a flood 2 meters wide will be everything. and about the buoyant I generally keep silent about 15 meters in the widest part. and in the summer I’m generally a trickle. where to drink such a poison? so there’s no time for fights, they’ll bend from dysentery. as soon as in the summer I’ll specially go a little further east. there’s a step are intact vide.sfotografiruyu and see how it oravushku such horses can feed a small grass-yes redkaya.k addition, in late June has pozhuhshaya.nu there is nothing to feed the cattle on a scale ..
  • Mentat
    Mentat April 26 2016 14: 43
    +3
    Quote: Mikhail Matyugin

    Quote: Mentat
    . However, modern genetic studies have not revealed any signs of incest, which must have appeared if a real conquest, like in China, really took place.
    Well, I’ll disappoint you a little. In the Volga region, for example, traces of the Mongoloid genetic substrate are extremely significant, and even in the Slavic lands proper east of Vladimir and even more so east of Nizhny Novgorod such a situation takes place.

    You can only disappoint with your geographical illiteracy. Give sources about genetic expertise so that such high-profile statements do not look like complete nonsense.

    After the displacement of the Bulgars, the Volga region was one of the territories of the Golden Horde. The fact that you are going to disappoint someone with the fact that there is historically high population density of the Mongoloid race speaks only about your ignorance.

    In addition, you do not understand what is at stake. A genetic analysis of ethnic Russians shows an absolute absence of impurities of the Mongoloid race, which would not have been possible if Russia had been conquered by Mongol nomads for 200 years.

    The so-called “Igo” was, based on this information, a form of tributary, that is, blackmail of Russian territories by robbery and raids. Just as there was a tribute to the Crimean khans for the same reasons, only it is not called the Yoke with a capital letter, and they rarely remember it. Although the Crimean khans not only loved to rob and burn, but also engaged in the slave trade of Slavs captured by Turks and Arabs. For which they paid as a result.
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 19: 04
      +2
      Yoke is an addiction. This is not occupation and assimilation.
  • esaul1950
    esaul1950 April 26 2016 22: 27
    +2
    I wonder where these damned nomads took equipment and weapons for hundreds of thousands of soldiers, having no, even the most primitive industry. Every warrior made his own armor, weapons, horse harness, provisions and provisions ???? And a hundred thousand horses did not fall from the sky either. Can any "historian" give an exhaustive answer?
    1. BarakHuseynovich
      BarakHuseynovich April 27 2016 00: 33
      0
      The main weapon of a nomad is a bow, everything else from the list is subsistence farming, trophies or tribute from the already conquered
      The raids were usually not on their own but because of a crop failure in the steppe
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 27 2016 04: 38
        +1
        Quote: BarakHuseynovich
        The main weapon of a nomad is a bow, everything else from the list is subsistence farming, trophies or tribute from the already conquered
        The raids were usually not on their own but because of a crop failure in the steppe

        Hyyy ... Great version.
        1. BarakHuseynovich
          BarakHuseynovich April 28 2016 00: 46
          0
          Not "xxx" - it was
        2. BarakHuseynovich
          BarakHuseynovich April 28 2016 00: 46
          0
          Not "xxx" - it was
  • D. Dan
    D. Dan April 26 2016 22: 31
    +4
    One thing is interesting to me - on the one hand, how do you say "Viliky tartarines will run over, the Mongols will say the myth" on the other hand, and why are such great Mongols, conquerors and supporters of all Russia and Europe and Asia, now just cattle-eaters between Russia and China?
    Well they are so battered and drowned? No, am I serious?
    The same Livonian-Tefton order is alive and well, the Hans are the locomotive of the EU, even the Hungarians are tse Europe, but the Mongols in the steppes pilaf cook and mares milked? Where their mega-armies were then - somehow they merged sharply!
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 19: 05
      0
      Huns, Scythians?
    2. Visitor
      Visitor 25 October 2016 11: 04
      0
      There is no need to put equal signs between the Hans and the Livonoteutonian Order. And then you will be surprised that Timur's descendants (Uzbeks and Tajiks) have not surpassed China in the economy? The period of feudal fragmentation in the Horde came much later than in Russia. The Horde broke up into the Blue (we called it Golden), the one that was based in the Wild Field and the lower-middle reaches of the Volga, and the White - this is beyond the Urals and approximately part of the territory of modern Central Asia. Then, in the Blue (Golden) Horde, a "great blight" began, according to Russian chroniclers - after the death of Uzbek, in 20 years 23 khans were replaced, who were in the chronicles, in fact there could have been more. Then there was a struggle between the Golden Horde and White Horde khans for the throne, where Tokhtamysh sailed with the help of Timur. In short, the agony of the empire began. You are not surprised by the area of ​​modern Great Britain compared to the British Empire during the time of Queen Victoria, over which the sun did not set?
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 27 2016 15: 01
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    You probably do not know. but there is the steppe. The Russians didn’t settle there en masse until the end of the 19 century.
    Well, I actually live here in the Volga region. And he traveled, looked, including pre-revolutionary photographs of the population in various regions.
    You see, Mongoloid anthropological signs - they are unambiguously present in a very large proportion of the population, only their presence is not unequivocal evidence that this is a trace of the armies of Batu and Nevruy.

    Quotation: blooded man
    This comrade from above already in the Lower found the genetic code of the Mongols.
    Do not misinterpret. Not Mongols, but signs of the Mongoloid race - which could (and most likely were transmitted) not only with the Mongol conquest, but with many other invasions long before the Mongols (those Huns for example or the Proto-Bulgarians).

    But the border in the same Nizhny Novgorod region between the zone of Slavic-Finnish settlement and the zone of forest-steppe and with a mixed population of different tribes is even still traceable, and in the 19 century it was very clear.

    Quotation: blooded man
    In Russia there are a lot of descendants and surnames of French since
    By the way, not so much. Units. Especially after the revolution. By the way, there is some French trace from migrations that were NOT connected with the invasion of Napoleon (technicians, tutors and governesses, all kinds of fashion salon keepers, etc. - Paris in the 17-19 centuries was really the capital of world fashion).

    There were a lot of royalist migrants in Russia, just opponents of the French revolutionaries (who by the way actively served in the European armies, fighting against Napoleon), and among them my distant ancestor.

    Quote: Prometey
    Well, what battered forces after the raid on Russia? Why did they have something to talk there? After the ruin of several dozen wooden towns and settlements, in which less than 10% of the population lived?

    In general, the demography of Russia in the 13th century, which existed before the "pogrom of Tsar Batyga", as well as the subsequent invasions - "Nevrueva rati", "Dudenev rati" was restored only in the 15th century, and that apparently only by the end of it ...

    Quote: Mentat
    A genetic analysis of ethnic Russians shows an absolute absence of impurities of the Mongoloid race, which would not have been possible if Russia had been conquered by the Mongol nomads for 200 years.
    The question is where did the Mongoloid features come from in the anthropological appearance of very many peoples, which are called Russians, but really are mixed types that cover the central region of the zone of Vladimir Rus with the Slavic ethnic core as if a large crescent from the former Volga Bulgaria through the Wild Field and further to Ukraine.
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 19: 07
      0
      The unmixed ones have no Mongoloid features.
  • tiaman.76
    tiaman.76 April 27 2016 21: 17
    0
    I liked the article. Sufficiently accurate and thorough. Genghischach created a military state from a wandering horde from the people of the war machine. For the time, it was an ideal military structure. It was essentially revolutionary. He eliminated the tribal division divided the peoples by 10..100 .. 1000 and ending with tumens essentially mixing up the Mongolian and partly Tatar tribes .. the emphasis was not on the origin or nationality but on the personal qualities of a warrior who could, in the future, advance from the rank and file to the officer corps, for example, thousands ball
    1. Morrrow
      Morrrow 7 May 2016 19: 10
      0
      What is so good about it? In my opinion, it is much more convenient and pleasant for any person to have a national state with culturally close people than an incomprehensible multinationality.
  • Visitor
    Visitor 25 October 2016 10: 55
    0
    co-creator,
    I can answer the last question. If you recall, the Wild Field, even in Peter's times, was not the territory of the Russian state. And this is practically the territory of modern Voronezh, Rostov and other areas up to the shores of the Black Sea. It was no coincidence that almost all the steppe incursions into Russia went through the Ryazan principality - here the steppe is being introduced into a wide forest in Russia (I apologize for the modern term). You can’t feed hundreds of thousands of horses in forest glades, no matter how vast they are, and you won’t go into the steppes behind them, there is a permanent enemy: Pechenegs, Polovtsy, later Horde. From here cavalry in the squads of the Russian princes was not much, everything is explainable.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 25 October 2016 18: 28
      0
      Quote: Visitor
      I can answer the last question.

      It is necessary to quote what question you answer, otherwise it is not clear.

      Quote: Visitor
      You can’t feed hundreds of thousands of horses in forest glades, no matter how vast they are, and you won’t go into the steppes behind them, there is a permanent enemy: Pechenegs, Polovtsy, later Horde.

      That is, there were hundreds of thousands of wild horses in the steppe?
  • zombirusrev
    zombirusrev 30 October 2016 20: 11
    0
    Europe was saved from further efforts by the Mongols only the death of the Great Khan and Batu hurried to the kurultai. The Mongols were then on the cutting edge of military science and operational art. Subedei Baatur was the greatest strategist and tactician. The outdated tactics of the Europeans could not save them. They also did not know the cause of the Mongol raid and did not bother themselves with diplomacy in this regard.
  • zombirusrev
    zombirusrev 30 October 2016 20: 33
    0
    According to the Gumilyov Mongols, there were no more than 3 mists; they could not distinguish more; 9 mists kept China 3 on. Protection of the Khan's Yurt. Georgia ....... And so on. In general, there was no silence. The fighting ability of the Mongols was unbelievable. The reason was the worldview formulated by Temujin and Jamuha Section!
  • GUGA
    GUGA 17 November 2016 13: 59
    +1
    The article is interesting to read. How the movie looked. There are many more questions than answers with this period. I understand that the Mongols were well oriented in Europe? If you were for the first time, then on the cards. If on the cards, then there were detailed maps and they knew how to read them and work with them on a professional level? Or were there local guides whom they fully trusted, who are they? The Mongols had heavy cavalry. Take for example the number of 1 tumen, with the weight of the horsemen's armor and the protection of the horse at 50 kg (in fact, I think more). Total we get a metal mass of 500 tons. Qualitatively processed, by the way, metal. Who mined and who processed these 500t? Plus swords, arrowheads and so on. And this is only 1 tumen heavy cavalry.
    Maybe someone will give a link to a museum in Russia or Europe, where you can see the original equipment of the heavy Mongolian horseman. Should have been dug up somewhere when excavating places of battles or settlements. In museums there are armor of knights, Russian warriors, found during excavations.
    Another question: when did the name Golden Horde appear? Horde so called their state?
  • misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 September 2017 22: 27
    0
    Amusing reading. In principle, all this was known. I like the presentation of the material. Always wondered. How do we know all this what ? It was also necessary for the author to remember the Czech duke Yaroslav Sternberg, who defeated one of the detachments of looters-foragers and in Czech history is seen as the winner of Batu himself! fool It would be necessary for us to bring more of these "winners" ...
    The election of the Great Khan is of course nonsense. Just a hike, starting in Southern Russia (Chernigov, Kiev, Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky, etc.) has been going on continuously for four years !!! It’s just that the Tatars along the way began to end soldiers. laughing