Military Review

Russian chronicle historiography of the "Ice Battle"

57
"Ice Slaughter" is already one of its name - "Slaughter" has become one of the most important, and not just important, but very important facts of our national stories. Of course, the popularity and pretentiousness of this event (no doubt about it!) Was also added by Sergei Eisenstein’s film shot in 1938. But our citizens know about him mainly only through school textbooks. Well, those who received higher education - in high school. Someone read a book by A.V. Mityaeva "Winds of Kulikov Field" and saw a color picture there. But ... the real story is not here. It is hidden in the texts of the PSRL - the multi-volume chronicle history of Russia - the history of the glorious, eventful, but very difficult to learn. Why? But why: at one time, the complete works of Marx, Engels, Lenin were in each library, but who among you, dear visitors of the VO website, saw ALL of this edition, held them in their hands and ... read? From here, by the way, and all this nonsense that they are forged. With the volume that we have, it would be impossible even physically, and one could not even talk about the fantastic value of such work. In addition, the conjuncture is changing. What to change in the annals, what will be tomorrow more important than what is important today? Do not guess! This is not Orwell "1984" ...




In our country, books about the Battle of the Ice, including those with interesting illustrations, in particular, drawings by I. Dzysya, were published many times. But in this case, it makes sense to show illustrations by the English artist Angus McBride for the book Medieval Russian Armies 1250 -1500 V. Shpakovsky & D. Nicolle / Oxford, Osprey, 2002. This is to the fact that we like to reproach Western authors in some belittles of our history. But look at these illustrations, from which English students have been studying this period of our military history for 14 years. And where do you see Russians in dirty sheepskins and onuchs with stakes in their hands? Meanwhile, not a single drawing in Osprey's editions can be placed without detailed proof of every detail cited and reference to artifacts. It's easier to write the book itself than to find it all! Here, too, you see a heavily armed horseman of 1250 from Western Russia (left), a horseman of southeastern Russia (center) and a Pskov boyar (right). Of course, 1250 is not 1242, but the difference is small!

However, it is easier for us now. We take only one event and look at how it was reflected in the texts of our chronicles. Yes, they have many discrepancies, but they were written by living people. On the other hand, it is clear that the no closer the text is to the time of the event, the more reliable it should be, for it can be based on “the testimony of Samovidy”. In any case, it will be interesting to everyone to get acquainted with these texts in full. At least, it is not necessary to climb on numerous volumes (and there are a lot of them!) And look out there for scary chronicle lines. But at the same time it is possible to compare how much, who and how quotes them!

Russian chronicle historiography of the "Ice Battle"

Miniature from the "Life of Alexander Nevsky", included in the Facial Chronicles (XVI century). Neva battle.

So let's start by pointing out that, quoting a description of the famous Battle of Peipsi Lake, most historians preferred to refer to the 1 of the Novgorod Chronicle. This is the most detailed and compact work, but, apart from this text, they also quote vivid excerpts from the 1 of the Sofia Chronicle, the Resurrection, Simeonovskaya and a number of other chronicle texts, as well as the Life of Alexander Nevsky, which complement the battle description with vivid details. And, of course, it should be noted that many historians have used these sources uncritically, while others have thought the material altogether.

For example, historian A.I. Kozachenko wrote: “We have heard the tale“ About the great Prince Alexander ”. The author of this tale was a contemporary of Alexander, knew him and witnessed his exploits, was “a Samovidian of his age.” And further ... "The chronicler, according to an eyewitness, writes:" And there was evil and great Nmtsem and Chyudi, and trusk from the mines of breaking and the sound of scattering, as the sea would freeze. And I don’t see ice: weight to blood "".

But all these stories are just a literary conjecture of a certain monk from the Nativity monastery in Vladimir, and were written already in the 80-s of the XIII century. Well, the Life of Alexander Nevsky (and not a legend at all!) Was written in the literary style of the traditional description of the battles of that time, but not on the testimonies of eyewitnesses. Because if we believe the author of the Life, it turns out that this "samovidets" not only could hear the speeches of the soldiers of Alexander and his prayer, ascended by him on the battlefield, but also ... really see "the regiment of God on the vezdus" that came to the rescue prince, that is, we then need to recognize the authenticity of "miracles".


Miniature from the "Life of Alexander Nevsky", included in the Facial Chronicles (XVI century). Neva battle. The army of Alexander Nevsky crushes the Swedes, and the angels help him!

Famous historian, academician M.N. Tikhomirov, who studied this text, notes that the author compares Prince Alexander with the historical characters he knows: that he was handsome, like Joseph the Beautiful, was equal to Samson by force, but in bravery he was comparable to the emperor Vespasian, who ravaged Jerusalem, and His voice was "like a trumpet among the people." From here, some historians very naively portrayed Alexander as a man of enormous height, with a voice like a trumpet. And humanly, this is understandable, but this is only literature, not history.


Russian "Pawn" 1250 - 1325 On the left is a crossbowman, in the center is the militia of the city militia, on the right is an archer.

Soviet-era historian V.T. Pashuto wrote: “It was not possible for crusader robbers to“ reproach the Slovenian language below themselves ”,” and refers to the Novgorod chronicle of the younger edition of 1. But ... does not indicate that these words are taken not from the text of the chronicle, but again from the text of The Life of Alexander Nevsky. Soviet military historian LA Strokov writes: “Our chronicler reports:“ They are proud, copulating and deciding: Come on, we will defeat Grand Duke Alexander and have it with our hands ”, and also refers to the 1 texts of the Sofia Chronicle, but does not indicate that these words taken again, not from the suicide text, but again from the Life of Alexander Nevsky, and does not notice that in the 1 of the Sofia Chronicle they are transmitted with distortion: instead of “the other city,” they are “pride”. So, over the years, there was an inaccuracy of the “car and small truck” and they grew like a snowball.


Miniature from the "Life of Alexander Nevsky", included in the Facial Chronicles (XVI century). Prince Alexander opposes the Germans, but the battle has not yet begun!

The historian Ye.A. Razin. “Judging by the chronicle miniatures, the battle formation was turned to the steep bank of the lake behind the rear, and Alexander’s best squad took refuge in one of the flanks.” At the same time, he seemed to rely on miniatures of the Laptev volume of the Facial Chronicle, which dates back to the third quarter of the 16th century. But these miniatures cannot be judged on the construction of troops, nor on the presence of an ambush regiment, since the medieval miniatures themselves are very conditional, and they have their own “book life”. Thus, the text of the Nikon chronicle under a miniature, written in p. 937 rev. It sounds like this: “And, having become strong by the power of the cross, make obedience to go on them, advancing Lake Chyudskoe. There is also a plurality of velmi. His father, the Grand Duke Yaroslav Vsevolodich, sent him to help his brother, Menchago Prince Andrea, with his many soldiers. Taco bo byashe from the great ... ".

And what do we see in miniature? In the upper right corner of Prince Yaroslav, which sends Prince Andrew with the army to help Prince Alexander, in the upper left corner - Prince Andrew and his soldiers, and in the center is the battle itself. And there is not, on a miniature, no ambush regiment. In any case, we do not see.


Here we see the riders 1375 - 1425's. On the left - an equestrian drummer of the end of the 14th century, in the center - an equestrian spearman of the beginning of the 15th century. with the Lithuanian shield-pavez, prince of the end of the 15th century As you can see, judging by the iconographic images and artifacts that have come down to us, our knights in no way inferior to the knighthood of the West!

Many historians refer to the texts of the 1 of Novgorod, 1 of the Pskov, Voskresensk, Lviv and Nikon chronicles, but do not figure out how their texts relate to each other and the text of “Life ...”. Meanwhile, all written sources of the XIII century. about the Battle of the Ice should be divided into several source groups: I - written in Novgorod, which are reflected in the 1 of the Novgorod Chronicle of the senior edition; II - Pskov, reflected in the Suzdal Chronicle; III - Rostov; IV - Suzdal, reflected in the Laurentian Chronicle; V - early Vladimir, - "The Life of Alexander Nevsky" in the first edition. The sixth group is, respectively, the late Vladimir news from the “Vladimir chronicler” of the 16th century. All the first groups belonging to the 13th century arose independently of one another, and the event described one thing - the battle known to us at the beginning of April 1242.

And this is her description from the 1 of the Novgorod Chronicle of the senior.
“In the summer of 6750. Go Prince Oleksandr from Novgorod and his brother Andrey, and from Nizovtsi to Chudsky land on Nemtsi and to Zaya, and to Plskov. And expel Prince Plskov, expel Nemtsy and Chud, and, having shackled, flow to Novgorod, and go to Chud himself. And as if by land, let go of everything in prosperity, and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbeta would be in the razgone, and I would waste Nemtsn and Chyud at the bridge, and that one. And ubisha that Domash, the brother of the breeder, the husband is honest, and with his hands, with his hands, and with his hands to the prince, in the regiment. The prince will sleep on the lake, Nemtsy and Chyud go on them. Prince Oleksandr and Novgorodtsp saw, put a regiment on Chudsky lake, on Uzmen, at Voronya kameni. And nahasha on the regiment Nemtsy and Chud, and run through the pig through the regiment. And there was a great slaughter of German and Chudi. God and saint Sophia and the holy martyr Boris and Gleb, for the sake of Novgorod, shed their blood, the saints with the help of great prayers to the god Alexander, for the sake of Novgorod. And Nemtsu that padosha, and Chyud Dasha splashing; and, gonyache, bisha ikh on 7-mi across the ice to Subolichskogo shore. And pada Chyudi veshchnsla, and German 400, and 50 by hand, Yasha and Nrnvedosha in Novgorod. And bishasya month of April in 5, in memory of the holy martyr Claudius, to the praise of the holy Mother of God, and Sabota. " That is, the very first chronicle gives us the number of fallen Germans in 400 people. That this Novgorod text is undoubted. It contains a link to the help of St. Sofia and St. Boris and Gleb. In the Pskov chronicles refer to the help of St.. Trinity.

From the Pskov Chronicles one can learn the following: in 1242, Prince Alexander first liberated the city of Pskov from the Germans, then fought with the German knights on the ice with an army of Novgorod and Pskov; defeated them and led the captured knights to Pskov "barefoot"; in Pskov there was a great joy about it; and Prince Alexander turned to the Pskov with a reproach, urged them not to forget what they had done for Pskov, and in the future always with particular attention to take the princes of his kind in his city!

It is not excluded that a local legend was known to the Pskov chronicler about some kind of speech with which Prince Alexander addressed the Pskov people after the battle. But we do not know its exact content. The chronicler did not know him either, and he had to resort to his own fantasy. And he urges Pskovs to be grateful to Prince Alexander and kindly accept the princes of his family. But this is again the second half of the 13th century. and, therefore, the earliest texts that we have at this particular time, and all the rest are later!

The Rostov chronicle evidence of the battle on Lake Peipsi from the Academic List of the Suzdal Chronicle is very succinct: “In the summer of 6750. Hody Aleksandr Yaroslavich from Novogorodtsy to Nemtsy and fight with them on Lake Chudsky, near Voronn kamenn, and defeat Aleksaidr and drive along the ice 7 versts, fly them. ”

An interesting story about the Ice Battle, which is in the Laurentian Chronicle, which was compiled by monk Lawrence in 1377. “In the summer of 6750. The Grand Prince Yaroslav of his son’s ambassador Andrea to Novgorod the Great, to help Oleksandrovi on Nemtsi, and I will be victorious over Pleskovoy on the lake, and full of plenty, and come back to Andrew to my father with honor. ”

Historian M.N. Tikhomirov writes that this is a Suzdal version of the battle on Lake Peipsi. There is not a word about Novgorod, the main character Alexander, but at the same time the entire honor of victory is attributed to Prince Andrey, although the Novgorod chronicles are silent about him.

The story about the Battle of the Ice is also reflected in the "Life of Alexander Nevsky" of the first edition, compiled at the Nativity monastery in Vladimir in the 80-s of the XIII century. a contemporary of the prince, a monk of the Nativity monastery in the city of Vladimir. The beginning of the text does not tell anything new. The interesting thing is this: “And Prince Olsander returns with a glorious victory. And I have a lot of people polished in his regiment, and I barefoot beside copies, I call myself God's rhetoric. ” That is, the captive knights went barefoot, but the figures, how many were there, are not given.

Thus, if we subtract from the most ancient texts all the “divine” and “miraculous”, as well as instructive and “local”, then we get the following amount of reliable information:
1. There was a campaign of Prince Alexander in the third year after the Battle of the Neva, namely in the winter - 1242 g .; at the same time, Pskov was liberated from the Germans, and military operations were transferred to the territory of the enemy.
2. There was a military alliance against Russia, and that his troops spoke out against the Russians together;
3. The enemy was noticed by the Russian guards, and the reconnaissance troops of Prince Alexander were defeated by the Germans;
4. Prince Alexander retreated, causing the Germans, one way or another, to be close to Lake Peipsi, and, given the text of the Livonian Rhyming Chronicle, that the dead fell into the grass (what kind of grass could be in April?), That is, it meant dry reed, preserved on the edge of the lake from the summer, the battle itself was on the shore and on the ice. Or it began on the ice, continued on the shore and on the ice, and ended with the flight of the Germans.
5. Prince Yaroslav assisted Prince Alexander, sending him his son Prince Andrew along with his retinue;
6. The battle took place on Saturday morning, at sunrise;
7. The battle ended with the victory of the Russian weapons, with the winners also pursuing the fleeing enemy;
8. Many enemy warriors were captured;
9. The winners held the captured knights barefoot beside their horses, that is, according to the canons of knightly honor, they were dishonored;
10. Pskov solemnly received Prince Alexander in Pskov.

Now we turn to the annals of the Novgorod-Sofia set of 30-ies of the XV century. and, in particular, the 1 of the Novgorod annals of the younger edition (second edition of the Life of Alexander Nevsky). The second edition of the Life of Alexander Nevsky exists in three documents: in the 1 of the Novgorod Chronicle of the Younger Edition (first appearance), in the 1 of the Sofia Chronicle (second view) and in the Likhachev collection of the late 15th century. (third view). Here is the text from the Novgorod 1 Chronicle of the Younger Edition on the Commission list:

“In the summer of 6750. Go Prince Alexander from Novgorod and his brother Andrew and from Nizovtsi on Chyudskoe land on Nemtsi, in winter, in strength velntsu, do not boast, rkushche: "Repentance Slovenian language below myself." Already bo byashe Pskov taken, and tiyune them planted. And Prince Alexander is the way to Pleskov. And expel prince Pskov, and izim Nemtsy and Chud, and, having shackled, flow to Novgorod, and go on Chud himself. And as if by land, let go of everything in life, and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbeta would be in the wrench. And ubisha that Domash, the brother of the husband, the husband is honest, and others with him, and some of them izimasha, and the frost to the prince went to the regiment. The prince will sleep on the lake, Nemtsy and Chud go on neh. Behold, Prince Alexander and Novgorod, stand on the Lake Chudsky, on Uzmen, at Voronya Kameni. And the Lake Chyudskoe will come, there are a lot of byashe both of them. Byashe bo u Oleksandr prince many brave, supposedly more ancient than Davyd, Caesar's stronghold, fortress. The same men of Alexandrovi were filled with the spirit of warrior, and bahu bo hearts of them aka lvom, and rykosha: "O prince, our honest and dreadful! Nowadays, lay down your heads for your time." Prince Alexander, at the entrance to the sky, and speaking: "Judge, O God, and judge my pry from the tongue of Verechna. Laughing, O Lord, as old as Moses on Amalek and my great-grandfather Yaroslav on Okannaya Spyatopolk."

Then the Sabbath is a Sabbath day, with the coming sun, and the hottest of the Nemtia and Chud regiment, and a pig through the regiment. And it was a great German and Ciuda, rubbing from copies of lamination and sound from a sword section, and I and the sea would be frozen moving.

And do not see the ice: it covered all the blood. He heard the same from the samovidts, and the speeches, like a videh of the half of God and in the air, who came to the aid of Alexandrov. And I conquer by the help of God and St. Sophia and the Holy Martyr Boris and Gleb, who for the sake of blood shed it. And Nemtsi that padosha, and Chyud Dasha plesyas and, chasing, beat on the 7 verst on the ice to the Sobolic coast. And pade Chyudi Beschisla, and German 500, and other 50 by Yasha and brought to Novgorod. A bisya april in 5, on the namyat of the holy martyr Theodul, on the praise of the holy Mother of God, on Saturday. Here, glorify the God of Alexander before all the regiments, as Jesus of Navgin at Erihon. They recly: "I have Alexandra with my hands," and these will give him a god in his hand. And having never been opposed to him in battle.

In the meantime, Alexander won a glorious victory, more than a few in his regiment, and knight beside them, a horse, I call God’s divider.

Yako is approaching Prince Alexander to the town of Pskov, and many of his people are shaking him up, and the abbess and priest in vestments are also worn by crosses and at the mercy of the prince Alexander to my gentlemen: from foreign language by the hand of Alexandrov. "

On the non-glaution of the Pskovitsi But if you forget it before the great-grandchild of Alexandrov, become like the Jew, their Lord is their prepita in the wilderness of the livers. And these are all the forgiving of their god, izvedshago from the work of Egypt.

And beginning to hear the name of Alexandrov in all countries, and to the sea of ​​Khupozhsky, and to the mountains of Aravitsky, and the smell of the country of the sea of ​​the Varangian, and to Rome itself. "

Here we see changes: the number of Germans killed “500” instead of the early number “400”, and “in memory of the holy martyr Claudius” - “in memory of the holy martyr Theodoul”. Then in the XV century. in the Novgorod 4 and 5 th annals, in the chronicle of Avraamka, the Rogozhskiy chronicler and in its full form in the Sofia chronicle a number of new details appeared: “50 of the deliberate governor ... and other water of the flood, taken prisoner, but wickedly ransomed” . Then, in the 1 of the Sofia annals, instead of “in memory of the holy martyr Theodoul” they were restored “in memory of the holy martyr Claudius” - they figured it out!

1-Sophiyskaya also says that the German “beast” (obviously, the grandmaster of the Livonian Order) “with all the bishops (bishops, of course) with his many and many languages,” went against Prince Alexander, “with the help of the queen,” but what it was the king, as well as the source of this news, unknown.


And here the warriors of Western Russia and Lithuania of the XV century. Left - Lithuanian infantry of the end of the XV century. To the right is the Novgorod boyar of the middle of the 15th century. In the center is a heavily armed (“knightly armed” - knightly armed - such an English term for “no knights” by social status) rider of the early 15th century, that is, the era of the Grunwald battle of 1410 of the year!

Thus, the study of quite numerous chronicle sources that have come down to us allows us to draw a number of conclusions. First: in the earliest there is no mention of the drowning of knights in the lake. Second, the number of those killed gradually rose from 400 to 500, but the number of prisoners remained unchanged. Third: initially it was not said about the significance and glory of the battle and the prince, but then it appeared in the annals, which, by the way, is not surprising, since “the big is seen in the distance”. Further, many historians still confuse the chronicle texts themselves and the text of "Life ..." —that is, they refer to a literary source as to the text of a chronicle. And although the texts of the published volumes of the Complete Russian Chronicles are available today, some authors continue to refer to the rewritten texts of school textbooks, in which "knights clad in armor" are still drowning in ice, although not a single chronicle text of the 13th century confirms this.

An appeal to the texts of the chronicles shows that in 1234, Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich undertook a campaign against the Knights of the Sword. There was a battle on the river Omovzhe (or Embaha). And that was there: “Ida Prince Yaroslav on Nemtsy near Yuriev, and a hundred did not reach the city ... Prince Yaroslav bisha them ... on the cross on the Omizhe Nemtsy broken, depleted them a lot” (PSRL, IV, 30, 178). That is, it is there, on the River Omovzhe, the knights went out on the ice, fell through and drowned! Probably, it was an impressive sight, otherwise the message about this would not have fallen into the annals! The chronicler mentions that "the best Numtsov nѣcoliko and nizovets (that is, the soldiers from the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, too) are nѣcolico" - that is, they and others, including "the best Germans", drowned. According to the chronicles, “Worship Nциmtsi to the prince, Yaroslav, taking with them the world to all his truth”. In 1336, the battle of Saul was fought, in which Zemgals and Samgeits fought against the Swordsmen, and with them a detachment of two hundred Pskov and Novgorod warriors. In it, the Crusaders suffered a cruel defeat, and not only the Grand Master of the Order Volkvin von Naumburg died in the battle, but also the 48 knights of the Sword Order, many of the Order's allies, but also almost all (180 of 200) warriors who came from Pskov. By the way, these data are very indicative precisely in terms of the number of those who fought. This order itself after this defeat was forced to merge with Teutonic next year, that is, its forces were undermined by this battle very seriously.


Miniature from the "Life of Alexander Nevsky", included in the Facial Chronicles (XVI century). The flight of the Germans. The vision of the heavenly host.

So there were many battles on the border of orders of knights and Russia. But, of course, the image of Prince Alexander, reflected both by many chronicles and the artistic “Life…”, acquired an epic form and a corresponding reflection in history already in our days. And, of course, it should be noted that serious historiographic and historical issues should be discussed, first of all, by professional historians who know the subject of discussion not by cheap pictures from the “Book of Future Commanders” and school textbooks for the fourth class, but by primary sources and serious research by various authors over many years.
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  1. PKK
    PKK April 26 2016 06: 46
    +8
    The author of "+" has done a lot of work. But at this, no one will be able to achieve a clear picture. I never saw the ice, although the Battle of the Ice. All the soldiers are dressed in combat, I will not say that it is easy, but Not in sheepskin coats. Both armies are dressed the same, the differences are insignificant. Horses could well be attributed to them later. I do not argue, but there is an opinion that horses appeared recently. At that time, the Swedes revolted and tried to free themselves from the Power of the Emperor, Tsar of Russia Empire, but the strength was clearly not enough. The result is known. The story is becoming more interesting every day. We are waiting for new publications.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 26 2016 08: 04
      +4
      I will join. Everything is painted sensibly. The situation that preceded the battle, the political consequences ... But where did the battle take place exactly? In general, it seems that by the Battle of the Ice people of that time did not understand one particular battle, but the whole war with the Order.
      I give the idea to historians. :)
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn April 26 2016 14: 25
        0
        Like the northern war or what?
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr April 26 2016 21: 47
          +2
          one is very significant that the war with the Germans! not with the Germans (someone here on the site zealously indicated that the very, well, very ancient nation of the Germans, still said that it was from the Roman Empire of the German nation), and here it was like Germans, adnaka, even in the days of the ice battle!
          1. Mikado
            Mikado April 26 2016 22: 35
            +4
            Quote: SpnSr
            and then it’s just like back in the days of the ice battle there were just Germans, adnaka!


            I liked one more historical phrase. When Russia in the middle of the 17th century broke off trade relations with England due to the English Revolution and the execution of King Charles I, the tsarist explanations of why the relations were severed (or privileges were canceled, I don’t remember) sounded like this in the decree: Anglican Germans they killed their king Carolus to death. " yes
            1. Spnsr
              Spnsr April 27 2016 06: 08
              +1
              Quote: Mikado
              Anglican Germans

              about that and the truth is in the details! moreover, in very small ones that seem to be overlooked, even in those texts that historians themselves provide !!!
  2. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys April 26 2016 06: 47
    +2
    Competent article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Arranged on the "shelves". Thanks.
  3. Vitail
    Vitail April 26 2016 07: 27
    +3
    It’s interesting to know the real story and not myths
    1. Maegrom
      Maegrom April 26 2016 08: 30
      +3
      Klim Zhukov in the Goblin deadlock recently told a version that was close to reality.
      1. brn521
        brn521 April 26 2016 12: 21
        +2
        Quote: Maegrom
        Klim Zhukov in the Goblin deadlock recently told a version that was close to reality.

        Klim Zhukov in historical matters reputation is worthless. Wraps dates and names, for example. Composes unsubstantiated stories from himself. A lot of people broke off when they climbed on the Internet to deepen the knowledge so beautifully presented to them.
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 April 26 2016 16: 17
          +8
          brn521

          Klim Zhukov, professional historian and publicist. And this means an accessible presentation of the story based on the findings, avoiding the details that scatter attention. This feature makes Klim Zhukov one who makes history popular with science.

          Thanks to the author for your work. But you can’t escape criticism.

          Articles in this style do not correspond to the public. Too scientific article with many links to sources names and dates.
          You would have done more of your conclusions, and published the evidence part separately. The average reader needs to submit information in a concise general way. And if professional historians want to test you, then you have the evidence part.

          The explanatory drawings surprised me. Even doubts arose. Although there is no reason not to trust you.
          1. brn521
            brn521 April 26 2016 17: 57
            +5
            Quote: gladcu2
            Klim Zhukov, professional historian and publicist.

            Publicist - I agree. As for the historian, historians themselves criticize him. You can’t even really rely on him. Take for example an armored question. Klim Zhukov beautifully laid out. Literally over a century, the knight’s combat armor from the lungs became unbearable. But as a source Zhukov cites the memoirs of a knight. As a result of the search, it turned out that 1. the knight did not find the aforementioned war, was born later 2. his argument was from the series: earlier the grass was greener, and he himself was not so old. And even then I had to pick it in German - nobody seemed to translate this junk into Russian. A further search revealed that Zhukov was not the first to interpret dates and names, and also to compose pseudo-historical arguments. They even joked that he was trying to beat the pseudo-historians with their own weapons.
            In general, do not be surprised that such an opinion exists.
            Quote: gladcu2
            Articles in this style do not correspond to the public. Too scientific article with many links to sources names and dates.

            So the author is just about this and asked. I asked for example. An article without links is not an article.
          2. Spnsr
            Spnsr April 26 2016 22: 25
            +1
            the author says that the whole story is pure truth, and it’s simply impossible to doubt it, although he himself further emphasizes that
            So let's start by pointing out that, quoting a description of the famous Battle of Peipsi Lake, most historians preferred to refer to the 1 of the Novgorod Chronicle. This is the most detailed and compact work, but, apart from this text, they also quote vivid excerpts from the 1 of the Sofia Chronicle, the Resurrection, Simeonovskaya and a number of other chronicle texts, as well as the Life of Alexander Nevsky, which complement the battle description with vivid details. And, of course, it should be noted that many historians have used these sources uncritically, while others have thought the material altogether.
            and in the same vein about all types of chronicle vaults that dates back 1,5 centuries later!
            the “chronicler” of the 18th century did not dare to write that he was an eyewitness to the events! but the fact even in this text shows that the Balts, as always, decided to break away! but along the way we looked at the territory of the Pskov region, and the nearby territories, here those who are dumb, decided to support them (Ukraine as a gift! it tells who there supported the Baltic states at that time (not the Roman empire of the German nation)), but just the Germans! Well, Alexander Yaroslavovich decided to bring them to order ...
            By the way, the period just falls on the Mongol campaign in Europe! there, too, some territories of the “Warsaw Pact” decided to Germanize, which were Germanized at intervals of a century, and finally, at the turn of the 20th-21st centuries, they succeeded! and one of the main reasons for the weakness of the Russian Federation and the Russophobic attitude of the elite of those states!
            history repeats itself, but what crosses several centuries of more or less objective history is not history, but pure fiction ...
            “In the summer of 6750. Go prince Oleksandr from Novgorodtsi and with his brother Andrei and from Nizovtsi to the Chyadsky land on Nemtsi and all the way to Pskov. And drive out Prince Pskov, seized Nemtsi and Chyud, and, having fettered, sweat to Novgorod, and you will go to Chyud. And like being on the earth, let the regiment go into prosperity, and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbet were in the runway, and I sat down Nemtsn and Chyud at the bridge, and that one. And you kill that Domash, the brother of the posadnik, the husband is honest, and you and I beat him, and you took the hands of him and you resorted to the prince to the prince. The prince, however, climbed up to the lake, while Nemtsi and Chyud went about them. Uzrev was Prince Oleksandr and Novgorodtsp, having set up a regiment on Lake Chyudskoye, on Uzmen, at Voronya Kameni. And we rode to the regiment Nemtsi and Chyud, and wounding a pig through the regiment. And fast that slash is great Germans and Miracles. God and St. Sophia and the holy martyr Boris and Gleb, for her sake, for the sake of Novgorod, shed his blood, those holy saints with great prayers, help God to Prince Alexander. But Nemtsi is that scum, and Chyuda gives a shoulder; and, hurriedly, beating them 7 versts on the ice to the Subolichsky shore. And Pade Chyudy beschnsla, and Nemets 400, and 50 hands Yasha and Nrnvedosha in Novgorod. And with a month of April 5, the memory of the holy martyr Claudius, the praise of the Holy Virgin, and the Sabbath. ”
          3. cth; fyn
            cth; fyn April 27 2016 05: 50
            0
            On the contrary, the article is in the spirit of the old VO, everything is serious and thorough.
    2. Leto
      Leto April 26 2016 08: 34
      +2
      Quote: Vitail
      It’s interesting to know the real story and not myths

      There are a couple of options:
      1. Time Machine
      2. Spiritual session
  4. Cartalon
    Cartalon April 26 2016 07: 37
    +2
    Excellent article
  5. parusnik
    parusnik April 26 2016 08: 10
    +10
    not at all from cheap pictures from the Book of Future Commanders and school books for fourth grade... Cheap pictures from the "Book of Future Commanders" and a school textbook for the fourth grade ... aroused interest in history ... at least for me .. As for the "Book of Future Commanders" .. As a child I remember three editions .. The first : hard cover, with gold embossing, cardboard in fabric .. wonderful illustrations with details .. The other two are soft, paper covers .. in the second edition illustrations are dull, faded, some details are not shown, and the third is just ugly black and white pictures .. almost schematic .. What is interesting .. The Book of Future Commanders, like the Book of Future Naval Commanders, is now rarely seen on the bookshop counter .. But somehow I met, looked through .. I did not buy .. very similar to the second and third editions, then I remember from childhood ... and when I also discovered spelling errors ... the desire was completely gone ...
    But this is so the lyrics .. According to the article, Vyacheslav .. great .. And the illustrations from Medieval Russian Armies, just great .. Seriously, the Angles approach this issue .. But our "type of historians" .. make speculations especially on drawings from the annals ..Type, pay attention, where are the Tatars or Swedes .. these are all Russians, they say the artist knew what he drew .. And people hawala ..
  6. Riv
    Riv April 26 2016 08: 28
    +4
    Could we digress a little from clever words and politics? :)
    In the starting picture, on the left is a man and a horse next to him. The horse looks at the boyar in armored trunks, as an enemy of the people. Typically, stirrups hang from the saddle of the horse. So they attracted the attention of a person poisoned by higher technical education.

    The fact is that stirrups are poorly compatible with the weapons and armor of the owner of the horse. To use open stirrups, the rider must wear shoes with heels. This is a must. Otherwise, the leg will fall into the stirrup and get stuck there more reliably. And with shoes without heels (well, or with chain armor) they used closed stirrups. So the artist was not well-versed in horses.

    The second nuance: the darts that the warrior holds. There is nothing surprising in them, their use by riders is the most common thing. It's just that it's inconvenient to hold them in your hands as the warrior in the picture holds them. Imagine yourself in his place. In one hand there is a shield, in the other there are darts (three pieces, Karl!) And you need to get into the saddle. Moreover, it is to the left of the horse (for there is also a sword on the side). It's a little uncomfortable to take the saddle, right? Therefore, under the darts, either loops or a special "tube" were made.
    Moreover, with such weapons stirrups are not recommended at all. Why? But because the hands are busy. Here is the rider in the center: he throws a zig with one hand, and holds the reins with the other. And if there are three darts in one hand and a shield in the other, then what are the reins to hold? If with your left hand, then the paveza interferes (it is quite large, heavy and fetters movement). Need a round shield. If right, then darts to throw. And if you throw the reins at all, then the horse will have to control his legs and stirrups will simply interfere.
    1. Midnight
      Midnight April 26 2016 09: 32
      +1
      Quote: Riv
      To use open stirrups, the rider must wear shoes with heels. This is a must.

      Why is this necessarily so?
      By your logic and skateboarding without ski poles will not work, because from the point of view of physics, a person will certainly fall in the opposite direction from the movement of the skateboard!
      So no offense, but again you find fault hi
      1. Riv
        Riv April 26 2016 10: 02
        +3
        Because it is necessary. Necessary. Fate is like that. The cards are so laid down. That is life. Allah commanded. (select one) in open stirrups - only shoes with heels.
        Closed, by the way, are now used in training. Here with them - even barefoot.
        1. Midnight
          Midnight April 26 2016 12: 51
          0
          Quote: Riv
          Such is life.

          Today? Today they drive with automatic transmission, many do not even know how with manual transmission, and before, there was not even a starter. And even earlier, once there was not even a stirrup, so do not confuse technical advantages with historical inevitability.
          PS I'm certainly not an expert on the history of stirrups, but your logic is initially IMHO strange.
      2. Chiropractor
        Chiropractor April 26 2016 11: 08
        +5
        On a skateboard without sticks - it will work, but you can’t strike a ram with a spear ...

        I didn’t want to discuss the pictures, but since I had such a booze ...
        On the first, an equestrian saber, mounted by an archer, is up to the knee. Such to reach the enemy and reach.
        Horses without blankets - in the picture like summer, approx.
        Paveza at the equestrian, instead of an almond-shaped shield covering the rider’s leg - well. let's say. Paveza seems to have gone from the Baltic states - the novogorodets could ride with a trophy.

        Picture 2. The pawns.
        Crossbowman - certainly not the Principality of Lithuania?
        The policeman is also in boots. Boots then are a luxury! When guests were invited to feasts, they indicated what kind of jewelry they were, and boots.
        What's on the policeman’s shield? Is Shiva Bear an eight-armed or British lion?
        Archer. Whoever wears such a bow on a campaign will not be able to throw arrows in battle. The bowstring is stretched constantly - it absorbs moisture (natural product, odanako) and stretches. The bowstring was pulled directly before the fight, and kept in a dry place during the campaigns. And if it was raining, then the archers understood that they would have to put down the bows and go hand-to-hand. However, the heavy horsemen also got off the faithful bucephals and put mud with armadillos - it was very easy to break the horses legs in the mud ...
        And the question is - where did the archer put his fear-ax when he shot from a bow? Tail held behind him?

        Picture 3 "Horsemen".
        The question with open stirrups remains "open". Yes, the pun is ...
        The armored sole would slide along such stirrups - neither stand up to strike, nor rest against.
        What holds the reins drummer? Tail probably, like a foot archer your ax ...

        Picture 4 "Under fire".
        Knight's helmet on a berry-bearer? Why does the berdysh have such a short shaft? How did he move with the infantry pavez - took it from the arbalester from the second picture?
        We don’t understand about the two-handed man at the cavalry now - there is not enough space ..
        1. kalibr
          April 26 2016 12: 12
          +2
          You know ... I don't know how to answer you. The rule for working with Osprey is that the author provides sketches of drawings with numbers 1,2,3 .... These can be good copies of pictures from the chronicle, but then for every detail there is a photo of an analogue from a museum. It can be a copier or a photo of reconstruction. But the reenactor must be famous or the photo must be a museum. That is, nothing can be invented! Anything that is not confirmed will have a question mark - please confirm! And so I collected all this and sent it to my co-author D.Nikol. He draws beautifully himself and has a rich archive, and even in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg he did not spend the night for nothing. Then he made sketches himself and painted - where what color, where what material and sent me for approval - whether and where in which picture who will be. I remember that the equestrian warrior with pavise was taken from somewhere, namely the equestrian. But I don't remember where from now. I remember Dzysya also had one, but in a different position and also from the same source. Then, when Nikol and I corrected and settled everything, the sketches were sent to Angus McBride. He, of course, changed his poses and ... put the bow on his back. Well, it could have been for half an hour, an hour ... But in general, all this took place from somewhere to be taken! The warrior in a strange helmet with a reed was not given by me. This is Nicole, and he also worked in Vilnius and the Museum of the Polish Army in Warsaw. That's all I can say. I only remember that I then rummaged through a bunch of magazines Soviet archeology in search of details. I remember that there were some questions about the stirrups and I again looked for them in the magazines of the SA and RA. And black and white drawings were drawn there by A. Sheps. And more, sorry, I don't remember anything. There were two more books that were not published (it is very disappointing how much work was lost!) And one was published. So "Everything was confused in the Oblonskys' house."
          About swords I will somehow give a separate material ... a lot of material, but there is no time to process it.
          1. brn521
            brn521 April 26 2016 12: 33
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            Of course, he changed his poses and ... put the bow on his back.

            Well dressed. Unconventionally, of course. But constantly carrying in your hands is not an option. To put or put on the ground - even more so. And installing a bowstring just before shooting is generally stupid. If something happens, then either run or shoot. To rise in the middle of the landfill and bend the bow on the knee - for suicides.
          2. Mikado
            Mikado April 26 2016 16: 38
            +1
            Thank you very much for the article!
            It’s all the more pleasant that you publish it even abroad, and what a great job you are doing before that ..
            About swords (I'm sorry to crawl into your discussion), I once read Kirpichnikov, he wrote (God forbid, memory) that there weren’t so many swords as artifacts in Russia. Or maybe I'm confused.
            1. kalibr
              April 26 2016 21: 41
              +3
              No, do not confuse. Kirpichnikov really wrote about this. But they are and there are very amazing finds!
              1. Mikado
                Mikado April 26 2016 21: 58
                +2
                Kirpichnikov systematized the found swords, it seems. We are waiting for a new article. And especially about the finds! Thank you sincerely! hi
        2. Riv
          Riv April 26 2016 13: 53
          +3
          A short saber in the horse - understandable. Trophy. I broke it, or drank it. Better with a short than without it at all.

          Horses without wrap-ups - the harsh Russian heroes do not care about horse sweat (which is rather caustic, who knows). However, this is just one.

          Bow through the back - archer gouging, definitely. There is a sagaidak for a bow. It’s not worth carrying a bow in this form, then you won’t even get into the barn.

          The short berdish has been evident since the time when firearms began to spread. The shaft was shortened and sharpened to stick it into the ground and use the weapon as a support for the gun.

          Two-handed rider - well, Conan the barbarian! :) And he also has a bastard on his belt. Schaz will take a sword in each hand as he starts to wave! ..
    2. brn521
      brn521 April 26 2016 11: 57
      +3
      Quote: Riv
      So they attracted the attention of a person poisoned by higher technical education.

      Do not slander techies. A real techie, faced with an unfamiliar question, first crawls into the reference literature.
      Quote: Riv
      The fact is that stirrups are poorly compatible with the weapons and armor of the owner of the horse. To use open stirrups, the rider must wear shoes with heels.

      Well, we climb on the same Wikipedia. We read: "A heel on a shoe appeared in the late Middle Ages. In Russian, the word" heel "was first noted in written sources in 1509." It's a bit late for 1242.
      Quote: Riv
      And with shoes without heels (well, or with chain armor) they used closed stirrups.

      We climb to Wikipedia. We agree. But there is concern about the contradiction - the image of the Russian equestrian war is poorly compatible with the closed stirrup - that is what we were taught. We start wool on the Internet about archeology. We see many fossils of open stirrups. And they couldn’t be found immediately, if any.
      Quote: Riv
      And if you throw the reins at all, then the horse will have to control his legs and stirrups will simply interfere.

      Again the Internet. Websites related to riding in bulk. For example: http://www.horse.ru/sport/sport_teachbook.php3?menu&document_id=303, "Impact on a horse with a leg." Stirrups are an indispensable attribute and do not interfere with horse control. Well, without stirrups, as we learn from the same Wikipedia, the rider is a sack loaded into the saddle. And his main concern is to sit quietly and keep balance, and not brandish a weapon.
      Quote: Riv
      Need a round shield.

      Again, Wikipedia. article "The Army of Ancient Rus". "In the 1971th century, round, flat wooden, leather-covered shields with an iron umbon were widespread. From the beginning of the XNUMXth century, almond-shaped shields, convenient for riders, were spread. And from the middle of the XNUMXth century, they began to turn into triangular." Source: Kirpichnikov AN, "Old Russian Weapon", XNUMX. So round is also not the topic. Then we read the article "Kite-shaped shield", we learn that it was one of the recognized standards of armament for horse warriors, both in our country and in Europe. Well, further, for general development, you can search on the Internet how the current reenactors with such shields are controlled without worrying about their size (in Europe they were even larger in size) and weight.
      Quote: Riv
      under the darts, either loops or a special "tube" were made.

      They will not be visible, in this tube. And this is an illustration. So we assume that darts are in the process of packing, or vice versa, unpacking.
      1. Riv
        Riv April 26 2016 13: 41
        +1
        Evgeny Vaganovich, you and your verbal diarrhea are already tired. Use the terminology, anyhow. Commented posts are read inattentively. Well, what do you know about stirrups? Yes, nichrome. What about horses? Even less. What about shields? Go away, do not disgrace.

        Purely to broaden the horizons of everyone else: a rider on a horse even without a saddle is by no means a clumsy, useless creature in battle. It is proved by the Macedonian, but the Petrosyans are not in the know.

        Evgeni Vaganovich is not aware that the cavalryman’s tactics are a hell of a lot. He can use darts, spear, bow, lasso, sword, maneuver on the battlefield, act alone, in small groups, or in lava. He may be ordered to go on reconnaissance, or in two days a throw to overcome a hundred miles.
        In some cases, stirrups will help. In others, they will interfere. Somewhere, and the saddle can interfere, for example, when forcing water barriers.
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 April 26 2016 16: 33
          0
          Riv

          You’d really call for nicknames, otherwise you won’t keep track of the discussion.

          Who is Evgeny Vaganovich? I apologize for not knowing.
          1. Riv
            Riv April 26 2016 17: 54
            0
            Petrosyan. :)
            Do you know who Petrosyan is?
  7. Volzhanin
    Volzhanin April 26 2016 09: 01
    +4
    ... serious historiographic and historical issues should be discussed, first of all, by professional historians who know the subject of discussion not by cheap pictures from the Book of Future Commanders and school textbooks for the fourth grade, but by primary sources and serious scientific research of various authors over many years.
    Who is against it? Only if historians were truly professionals and advocated for the triumph of a scientific approach, and not for the sake of the political situation, as basically things are. And such real professionals, unfortunately, are a tiny percentage, and as a result, our children do not understand what, and even the older generation has stereotypes and mess in their heads.
  8. karakuin
    karakuin April 26 2016 09: 08
    +11
    I’m telling my grandson about the exploits of Russian soldiers, starting with Evpatiy Kolovrat. He showed a photograph of the great-great-great-grandfather with the St. George Cross, and gave the Order of the Red Star the great-great-grandfather vilified. Kindergarten teachers said they themselves hung their ears when he talked about Mercury. Teach, gentlemen, show and then every kid will feel inwardly the military prowess of Russian soldiers, and when this happens, this snotty one takes the path of the defender of the Motherland. Do not forget that each of us is entrusted with a holy duty by those who - until the last cartridge.
  9. Old_Python
    Old_Python April 26 2016 10: 54
    +5
    The article did not put anything. Everything seems to be wonderful, sensible, competently - but something cuts.
    All this looks somewhat like "was there a feat of 28 Panfilov's men?" With the "abundance" of information available in the scientific circulation about those years, in any case, one has to deal not with events, but with versions of events. And make a choice ...
    And so of course everything is decorous. Flawless article. Pictures again ...
    1. VSkilled
      VSkilled April 26 2016 12: 02
      +2
      Everything seems to be wonderful, sensible, competently - but something cuts ...

      Exactly...

      In fact, Mr. "sort of Shpakovsky", being either a Polish Jew or a Jewish Pole, has a clear and acute dislike for everything Russian.

      Not so long ago, he already tried to "utterly debunk" the Battle of the Ice. Hiding behind, allegedly, the need for "strict compliance with historical objectivity."

      The people were indignant, but somehow sluggish.

      And, quite recently, Mr. "as it were Shpakovsky" has done well - just plain stupidity, trying to openly shit on the bright memory of the Red Army. About her, allegedly, flirting with the Wehrmacht during the so-called "division of Poland" on the eve of the Great Patriotic War.

      Here the people were no longer lethargic, but "poured" this "as if to Shpakovsky" from the heart, recalling his open disregard for the victories of Alexander Nevsky.

      Along the way, someone said that Mr. "kind of Shpakovsky" was good at only talking about armor.

      In short. The article testifies to the obvious desire of Mr. "as it were Shpakovsky", in purely Jewish traditions, "to change shoes on the go."

      Yes, what is there - "on the move" ... In - jump!

      It can be seen that he tried. And even - "trump cards" used, in the form of armor, for which he was previously praised.

      But, all this, obviously - through force. Real attitude is difficult to hide. Therefore - "Everything seems to be wonderful, sensible, competently - but something cuts."

      Well then. I would not be surprised at the appearance of a new version of the article on the pre-war events in Poland ("Blitzkrieg tanks in battle").

      Mr. "as it were Shpakovsky" should not be allowed to reduce ratings, and, accordingly, the audience. After all, this may threaten with a reduction in the corresponding monetary receipts from Western "curators" ...
      1. Midnight
        Midnight April 26 2016 13: 00
        0
        Quote: VSkilled
        VSkilled

        Write ischo, I haven’t laughed like that for a long time! laughing
      2. Riv
        Riv April 26 2016 13: 43
        +4
        Jews, Jews, only Jews around ...
        If there is no water in the tap,
        So the Jews drank ...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 26 2016 18: 34
          +2
          We do not have anti-Semitism, but everyone can continue the phrase "If there is no water in the tap ..." © M. Zhvanetsky
        2. kalibr
          April 26 2016 18: 54
          0
          At the beginning of the twentieth century. Mayakovsky came to us in Penza to give a lecture on Imagism. In yellow trousers, a green jacket and a carrot in his buttonhole. I started reading, but the audience does not accept him, laughter, noise. Suddenly one ... and asks him: "Aren't you a Jew?" Still, it's clear, since "sky" ... And Mayakovsky answers him: with Jews - a Jew, with Russians - Russian, with Georgians - Georgians! "" And with the fools? "- shouted from the audience.
          "This is my first time with fools!" - Mayakovsky answered.
      3. kalibr
        April 26 2016 18: 29
        -5
        Do you seriously believe that the local disadvantages at least somehow excite me? My ratings are in the RSCI and Hirsch. "Rating" here with pluses and minuses is ... well, games for adults no more. And about the "curators" in more detail - where does the information come from? Most interesting. Maybe you even know exactly how much the US State Department is underpaid for me? Wow, and I'll ask them then! And you don't promise me money anymore, do you? It's a pity!
        As for other materials, there will be a continuation of the tank theme about Blitzkrieg tanks and material about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and a lot more of it. About the same Nevsky - a victim of Soviet propaganda - there will be material and an article about the massacre of the English historian Phyllis Jestays with my comments. By the way, there will be large articles about the problems with coverage of this battle in the European Journal of Contemporary Education and in Russian History. In the end, everything will be the way I (not you!) Consider it necessary, including in our new school textbooks. There will be no propaganda! There will be history!
      4. Kenneth
        Kenneth April 26 2016 22: 32
        +6
        What is your egregious straightforwardness and narrow-mindedness.
      5. Amestigon
        Amestigon April 28 2016 13: 45
        +3
        Quote: VSkilled
        Everything seems to be wonderful, sensible, competent - but something cuts ..

        This is called cognitive dissonance. That is, the state of mental discomfort of an individual caused by a clash in his mind of conflicting ideas: ideas, beliefs, values, or emotional reactions. In other words, the school and mass culture-inspired view of the Battle of the Ice ran into concrete facts, which are so intelligently streamlined in this article.
        Well, to see in such articles a deliberate attempt to belittle the role played by Russians in world history can only be a person with a complete lack of logical thinking or thoroughly saturated with propaganda. Attempts to make the big out of the small and the silence about the big, if it is not convenient, is the real propaganda.
        Quote: VSkilled
        Here the people were no longer lethargic, but "poured" this "as if to Shpakovsky" from the heart, recalling his open disregard for the victories of Alexander Nevsky.

        The logic is of course murderous. That is, if the feat was not so epic, then this is not a feat or what? And these people forbid picking their nose!? (C) And this person speaks of the Jewish neglect of the author !? laughing
  10. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 April 26 2016 12: 42
    +2
    The author plus for a lot of work ... the content leaves much to be desired. From the series of another "historian-analyst". In principle, I have not read anything new. Before historians, there was a question before - the Battle of the Ice is a collective image of many battles with the Order, or specifically one battle that put a fat point in a series of many battles with the Germans, Swedes and other papal adversaries ... Well, it seems that they confirmed that the Battle of the Ice had a place to be and was very significant for all of North-Western Russia ...
    1. kalibr
      April 26 2016 21: 45
      -2
      Alexey! And what new could you read in the old chronicles? If you don’t invent anything yourself, then there’s nothing new there at all, but ... that’s exactly what people don’t want to notice! They need a new one without fail!
  11. Bayun
    Bayun April 26 2016 14: 33
    -2
    I'm sorry ...

    Let's turn on the logic, if there were more Miracles than Germans, therefore, we are dealing with the conflict Russia - Miracle, and the Swede and German - to the heap.

    Obviously, a slippery topic, not patriotic. Is it better to lie to ourselves? Either for "paganism" ("the squad trampled the Magi for a long time"), then for the "old faith" (for "two fingers", so to speak) we will burn and destroy half the country. The faith has run out - we will kill for wealth. No rich left? We kill for the idea, horseradish radish is not sweeter. And then we will write off everything on the "German" (he is still an adversary, of course).

    If at the root. The Great Russian Civil War lasts for millennia, interrupted only by the will and power of powerful Tsars, who turn the "civil war" into an "international war." Today's: Kievan Rus against Muscovy - precisely from this evil ancient root. Cause? Perhaps I will be mistaken, but in my opinion: acceptance of ANOTHER faith ...
  12. SokolfromRussia
    SokolfromRussia April 26 2016 14: 57
    +1
    Great text! The only moment - Vyacheslav, you took the pictures from the book, which is dedicated to the soldiers of 1250-1500. And it was worth taking from the book 750-1250.
    1. kalibr
      April 26 2016 18: 32
      -1
      Yes, I know, but ... it wasn’t at hand, I gave it to a colleague to read, and he left for St. Petersburg for two weeks on business. And look on the Internet - often pictures taken from there are not inserted. But it will not be inserted ... and what will the article look like?
      But ... I read your comment, contacted him - he would come soon and then - you gave me a good idea - I will give an article on this book of his. He wrote it without me. With a list of references!
  13. drilled
    drilled April 26 2016 15: 32
    +3
    Thanks to the author for the article.
    According to the illustrations: the enemy artist did not bother himself too much - he took Lithuania and the Poles and passed them off as Russians. For fans of "Robocop" and "Battle of Thrones". First, I have never seen chain mail pants in artifacts. The chain mail was a shirt. By the way, a very expensive pleasure. Even boyars wore kalantars or behrers more, and even younger warriors wore tegilyas. Shaved beards. Yes, before Peter the shame was "barefoot muzzle". Swords with pronounced crosses of the guard - "vulgar" Varangian, aka Russian, the sword had a large "apple" and the missing "cross" inherent in Franks swords, with two rounded valleys and a leaf-shaped tip. The saber of the "Eastern" Rus is almost a scimitar. And at that time there were Mongolian sabers, crooked and heavy. Sulitsa (what was called a dart) was not practiced by riders. This is a militia item, marking, like a spear. Helmets ... The hands of a blacksmith would have been torn off for such))) They look like German caps. The Russians had Misyurks and Shishaks, and the rich boyars of the Jericho.
  14. ver_
    ver_ April 26 2016 15: 34
    +2
    Quote: Riv
    Evgeny Vaganovich, you and your verbal diarrhea are already tired. Use the terminology, anyhow. Commented posts are read inattentively. Well, what do you know about stirrups? Yes, nichrome. What about horses? Even less. What about shields? Go away, do not disgrace.

    Purely to broaden the horizons of everyone else: a rider on a horse even without a saddle is by no means a clumsy, useless creature in battle. It is proved by the Macedonian, but the Petrosyans are not in the know.

    Evgeni Vaganovich is not aware that the cavalryman’s tactics are a hell of a lot. He can use darts, spear, bow, lasso, sword, maneuver on the battlefield, act alone, in small groups, or in lava. He may be ordered to go on reconnaissance, or in two days a throw to overcome a hundred miles.
    In some cases, stirrups will help. In others, they will interfere. Somewhere, and the saddle can interfere, for example, when forcing water barriers.

    Quote: Riv
    Evgeny Vaganovich, you and your verbal diarrhea are already tired. Use the terminology, anyhow. Commented posts are read inattentively. Well, what do you know about stirrups? Yes, nichrome. What about horses? Even less. What about shields? Go away, do not disgrace.

    Purely to broaden the horizons of everyone else: a rider on a horse even without a saddle is by no means a clumsy, useless creature in battle. It is proved by the Macedonian, but the Petrosyans are not in the know.

    Evgeni Vaganovich is not aware that the cavalryman’s tactics are a hell of a lot. He can use darts, spear, bow, lasso, sword, maneuver on the battlefield, act alone, in small groups, or in lava. He may be ordered to go on reconnaissance, or in two days a throw to overcome a hundred miles.
    In some cases, stirrups will help. In others, they will interfere. Somewhere, and the saddle can interfere, for example, when forcing water barriers.


    .. A little "bent" my friend 100 miles in 2 days is impossible to overcome ..
    Horse can 50 km. to master a day, but 17 km. cannot do it in 2 days .. Moreover, the rider periodically has to dismount and run next to the horse .., even using the second horse .., more armor, weapons ...
    1. Riv
      Riv April 26 2016 16: 19
      +1
      Another ... Or is it the same? Personally, I, along with the department 38 kilometers from training to the district center in 14 hours passed. With two halts. Well, there was no car. Buses did not go there, but the train had to be in time. And nothing, the legs did not fall off. And this one - a horse will pass 50 km, no more. Yes, and so that the horseman would run after her ... No, of course, I oats gobbled up oats fairly in the army, apparently this affected the results. :)

      Okay, set aside the rzhach! In 1242, the younger brother of Alexander Nevsky, Andrei, went with the army to help his brother. He just took Koporye and Pskov. From Vladimir to Pskov (more than 1000 km). I managed it in 20 days. But he was walking in the WINTER. That is, 50 km / h is normal. For winter.

      And during the passage of Suvorov through the Alps, Russian troops traveled 150 km in 6 days. Infantry and artillery. In the mountains, Karl!
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 26 2016 18: 45
        0
        Quote: Riv
        Personally, I, along with the department 38 kilometers from training to the district center in 14 hours passed. With two halts. Well, there was no car. Buses did not go there, but the train had to be in time. And nothing, the legs did not fall off.

        Rybalko’s infantry (not motorized infantry) 48th Guards Airborne Division in 1942 marched 25 km in 3 hours (in order to keep up with the tanks):
        Motorized infantry and infantry learned to commit 25 km marches in 3 hours followed by a combat mission.
        Make long marches up to 50 km at any time.
        In addition, infantry and motorized infantry fulfilled 5-6 km throws.
      2. Old
        Old April 26 2016 19: 52
        +2
        "Of course I ate oats in the army pretty much"))).
        It seems to me, too, that the talents of English artists are slightly exaggerated. Some kind of mess.
        That's interesting, the scale of the battle on Chudsky, judging by the number of knights killed (400), doesn’t rest against, for example, Batu’s campaign in Europe. Losses of Hungarians with comrades in one battle of 50000!
        It is clear that a knight is like a tank in those days, but still, is there no exaggeration? Here the battle of Kulikovo is really a milestone ...
        1. Riv
          Riv April 27 2016 10: 55
          +1
          This is because Nevsky considered only knights. After all, we think that it is cool to fill up a knight. And at that time it was more profitable not to kill, but to capture and get a ransom from the Order. So when the crusaders under the ice on Chudsky were gone, the sadness of the Russians was probably serious. The pauper infantrymen recruited from local tribes were useless in terms of ransom. Nobody tried to take them prisoner and nobody considered them. An ax on the head - and the whole conversation.

          And in the Horde, the formations were assigned a strategic objective. They tried to destroy the enemy’s army, to the last man. Who is the knight, and who is the serv, did not understand. This, by the way, is an argument against Bush's theory of the Russian invasion of Europe. The Tatars showed a completely different approach to hostilities than the Russians.
        2. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin April 28 2016 22: 45
          +2
          Quote: Old
          the scale of the battle on Chudsky, judging by the number of knights killed (400), doesn’t rest on anything, for example, with Batu’s campaign in Europe

          Well, how many times even on Wo publish data on losses - and all by. Even without taking the German chronicles, according to Russian chronicles from 400 to 500 killed "Germans", ie not only knights, but also armed and uniformly equipped in European armed servants. Approximately 40-50 prisoners - also not knights, but in "German clothes".

          The number and loss of vassal, allied and mercenary contingents from Estonians and Lithuanian-Lithuanian tribes is unknown.

          The number of knights participating in the battle is several dozen.
          1. BarakHuseynovich
            BarakHuseynovich April 29 2016 17: 56
            0
            At least 500 knights from all over Europe alone, this was a crusade.
  15. Awaz
    Awaz April 26 2016 20: 40
    -1
    I would generally be cautious about the sources written by priests and their servants. It is unlikely that it is now possible to restore what really happened. But in any case, the Russians won. Probably the victory itself could not have had any particular role, but for some public this was an occasion to publicize And about Alexander’s speech .. duck seemed to have been said about it more than once and there is no secret. There was a betrayal among the Pskovites, and therefore he conducted a debriefing there.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth April 26 2016 22: 20
      +2
      Or maybe not betrayal, but the desire of some Pskov elites to go under the roof of the Livonians, because the Novgorod roof was not only leaking, it was also difficult
      And the notion of patriotism, homeland, and so on in those days was more vague, and the main thing was interest.
      1. kalibr
        April 27 2016 08: 07
        0
        Danilevsky wrote very well about this ...
  16. esaul1950
    esaul1950 April 26 2016 22: 08
    +2
    The longer I live in this world, the more I am convinced that the whole story is "variations on the theme of the generations following the events" and everyone who knows what is wrong is lying ...
  17. shoemaker
    shoemaker April 27 2016 00: 21
    -3
    Prince Alexander paid tax to the horde. So he had every right to call for help of professionals, which was done. And they went pork snout, according to their traditions. And the Tatarva split in two directions, the foot Russians became a wall (in Russia a horse was like a cow in gold, who will give you to kill it), and the Tatarva began to slaughter it in the back. And how else to nail such a chained. Alexander studied in the horde, knew these simple secrets. And then another reserve regiment approached. In general, victory is victory, with or without deception. There were still crusaders, but they did not ride horses and fixed the battle’s honesty, because they were mediators in agreements from the pope. And nobody dared to touch them.
  18. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 27 2016 14: 26
    +1
    The article is almost a masterpiece.

    As you can see, judging by the iconographic images and artifacts that have come down to us, our knights were in no way inferior to the knighthood of the West!
    And the severity of horse armor - far superior!

    Quote: anodonta
    Nowhere had to read that the boyars wore fur coats over their armor! Secondly, why does he need two (!) Swords?
    For reliability and for show. Could buy - and bought, the sword was worth more than a mace. By the way, swords tended to break.

    And you seriously think that in the cold they cut through one chain mail?

    Quote: Burieway
    The chain mail was a shirt. By the way, a very expensive pleasure. Even the boyars walked more in the calantarias or Bechrera, and the younger warriors were completely in tegiliai. Shaved beards.

    In vain, chain mail (or even plate) stockings were found, and historical authentic images are sufficient.

    What do you mean by the word henchman and ankylosing spasm, eh?

    The younger squad - and in quilted jackets? Are you seriously ? and it wasn’t bad for them to go out to battle so poorly? Accidentally not with the junior city police and the rural militia not beguiled?
  19. Vasili09
    Vasili09 April 27 2016 16: 50
    +1
    nice article and just peerless comments, it was very interesting, thanks
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy April 27 2016 19: 25
      +3
      Quote: Vasily09
      nice article and just peerless comments, it was very interesting, thanks

      Yes, I agree, the crap is still the same. A more noticeable illustrations of the Saxons, in general, still need to search and find. Guys benevolently reason correctly drawn or not. Drawn without love for the subject, and so it turned out ugly and stupid. All in chain mail, stockings, trousers. Complete nonsense. On spears there are flags with emblems-carons, Polish clowns.
      1. kalibr
        April 27 2016 20: 49
        0
        So how should it be? Explain? To say complete nonsense - to say nothing! Are you Kirpichnikov hiding under the name Mauritius?
        That is, I can’t say anything, but I’ll put a minus. Oh, how childish, but kind of serious people here ...