Bronze Age Massacre

Massacre on the bridge: Found the place of the colossal battle of the Bronze Age.

About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. Information about this collision can not be found in any book on stories: writing in this region became widespread only after 2000 years. And it was not a clash between two local clans. Thousands of warriors met here in mortal combat, perhaps on the same day, using weaponmade of wood, flint and bronze - metal, which at that time was at the top of military technology.

In an effort to gain solid footing on the banks of the Tollense River, a narrow water belt running through the marshes of Northern Germany in the direction of the Baltic Sea, the armies came together hand to hand, mutilating and killing each other with clubs, spears, swords and knives. Arrows with bronze and flint tips, produced at close range, pierced the skull and stuck deep in the bones of young men. Horse-spear-pierced horses of high rank fell into the mud. Not everyone survived the melee - some warriors mixed up, ran and were amazed from behind.
At the end of the battle, hundreds of people, dotting the swampy valley, were left lying dead. Some bodies, after everything valuable was removed from them, remained to swim in small lakes, others plunged to the bottom, which, thanks to one or two meters of water, protected them from being robbed. Gradually on the bone donkey peat. For many centuries, the battle was forgotten.

In 1996, an amateur archaeologist discovered a forearm bone protruding from a steep bank of the river - the first key to the grim mystery of the Tollense Valley, located about 120 kilometers north of Berlin. At one end of this bone, a flint tip was firmly implanted, prompting archaeologists to carry out exploratory excavations, which yielded more bones, broken skulls, and a 73 centimeter cudgel resembling a baseball bat. Radiocarbon dating of artifacts showed 1250 year BC, which made it possible to assume that we are talking about an episode from the European Bronze Age.

Now, after a series of 2009 - 2015 excavations, the researchers began to realize what the battle was and its amazing importance to the Bronze Age society. On the three-kilometer stretch of the Tollense River, archaeologists from the Mecklenburg-Front Pomerana Department of Historical Findings and the University of Greifswald dug up wooden batons, bronze spearheads, and flint and bronze arrowheads. They also discovered a huge number of bones: the remains of at least five horses and more than 100 people. The bones of a hundred more people may not be found, while thousands of others could take part in the battle and remain alive.

“If our hypothesis is true that all the finds relate to the same event, then we are dealing with a conflict of scale previously unknown to the north of the Alps,” says excavation director Thomas Terberger, an archaeologist from the Lower Saxon State Cultural Heritage Service in Hannover . "There is nothing to compare with this." This, together with weapons and warriors, may be the earliest direct evidence of a battle of this magnitude in the ancient world.

For a long time, northern Europe in the Bronze Age was regarded as a quiet backwater that was in the shadow of the more advanced civilizations of the Middle East and Greece. The bronze that appeared in the Middle East around 3200 BC took 1000 years to come here. But the scale of Tollense speaks of greater organization and greater cruelty than previously thought. “We looked at scenarios of small groups of young people killing and stealing food, but it was amazing to imagine such a major battle of thousands of people,” says Svend Hansen, head of the German Archaeological Institute of the Eurasia Department in Berlin. Well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to the picture of development in the Bronze Age, showing the existence of a class of trained warriors and suggesting that people throughout Europe were involved in bloody clashes.
Now there is little disagreement about the fact that Tollense is something special. “When it came to the Bronze Age, we lacked solid evidence. Having opened the battlefield and the people killed on it and their weapons, ”says archaeologist Barry Molloy from University College Dublin,“ we got this evidence. ”

(Flint arrowhead, in the bones of the forearm, which attracted the attention of archaeologists to the ancient battle in the valley of Tollense.)

The hunting mansion on the lake, named Schloss Viligrad, was built at the turn of the 19th century deep in the forest, 14 kilometers north of Schwerin, the capital of the North German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Nowadays, this raw building is a home for the state department of historical heritage and at the same time a small local art museum.

In the hall with a high ceiling on the third floor of the castle, high windows overlook the foggy lake. Inside, the pale winter light draws dozens of skulls laid out on shelves and tables. In the center of the room, the long bones of the legs and short ribs lie arranged in rows on the tables, the other remains are stored in cardboard boxes, stacked on metal shelves, reaching almost the ceiling itself. Bones take up so much space that there is almost no space to walk.

When the first of these finds were dug in the 1996 year, it was still impossible to understand that Tollense was a battlefield. Some archaeologists assumed that the skeletons could have been washed away from the cemetery or that they had accumulated over the centuries.

For skepticism there were reasons. Prior to Tollens, direct evidence of large-scale battles of the Bronze Age was scanty, especially in this region. Historical narratives depict epic battles in the Middle East and in Greece, but few artifacts confirming these boastful stories have been preserved. “Even in Egypt, knowing many stories about wars, we never found sufficient archaeological evidence of their participants and sacrifices,” says Molloy. In Europe, the Bronze Age lacks even historical stories and all researchers had to deal with weapons from ceremonial burials and a small number of graves that have undeniable evidence of violence, such as decapitated bodies or arrowheads in bones. Until the 1990s, “for a long time, we didn’t represent a real prehistoric war,” says Hansen. Finds in graves were explained as prestigious objects or symbols of power, and not as a real weapon. “The majority believed that ancient society was peaceful and that men of the Bronze Age were engaged in trade, etc.,” says Helle Vandkilde, an archaeologist from the Danish University of Aarhus. "Very little was said about the war."

(Signatures: Things they wore. On the battlefield, archaeologists have discovered many artifacts that give a detailed picture of the weapons and decorations of the warriors. Because many artifacts were found using metal detectors, a large number of bronze and tin objects were extracted.
- Tinned rings and bronze spirals. Warriors could wear these two tin rings on their fingers. A small bronze spiral could serve as a “brush” or decoration of clothes.
-Wooden batons. Archaeologists have found two batons in Tollens, both probably belonging to people of lower rank. The simple 73 centimeter baseball bat is made of ash, and the 62 centimeter croquet mallet was made of turn.
-Bronze ax. Similar axes in the Bronze Age were used as weapons, as well as for household work. They were exchanged and even saved as value.
-Bronze bracelet. Decorated jewelry suggests that, at least, some warriors had a high status).

Everything changed the 10000 bones that are in this room — that's what was left of the losers at Tollens. They were found in dense clusters: in one cluster of 1478 bones, among them 20 skulls, located on an area of ​​about 12 square meters. Archaeologists believe that the bodies were piled or thrown into small lakes, where the movement of water mixed the bones of different people. Considering the specificity of individual bones - skulls and hips, for example, paleontologists Utah Brinker and Annemarie Schramm identified at least 130 people, almost all men, mostly between 20 and 30 for years.
This number allows you to judge the scale of the battle. “There is at least a 130 man and five horses. And we just opened 450 square meters. This is the maximum 10% of the detected layer, maybe even 3 or 4 percent, ”says Detlef Yantzen, head of archaeologists. “If we had excavated the whole area, we could have 750 people. This is incredible for the Bronze Age. ” He and Thurberger claim that this indicates that according to rough estimates, if one of the five participants was killed and left on the battlefield, then almost 4000 people could take part in the battle.

Brinker, the paleontologist responsible for analyzing the remains, says that the moisture and chemical composition of the soil of the Tollense Valley kept the bones almost perfect. “We can reconstruct exactly what happened,” he says, lifting a rib with two tiny V-shaped cuts on the edge. “These cuts on the ribs show that he was stabbed twice in the same place. We have many of these, often with multiple marks on the same edge. ”

When scanning the bones at the Berlin Institute of Science and at the University of Rostock using microscopic computed tomography, detailed, three-dimensional images of these lesions were obtained. Now archaeologists identify the weapons that caused them by comparing the images with the scans of weapons found in Tollens or in contemporary burials from different parts of Europe. For example, the holes in the bones in the shape of a diamond definitely correspond to the shape of the bronze arrowheads found on the battlefield. (Bronze artifacts in Tollense are found more often than flint ones, possibly due to the fact that metal detectors are used to scour the area).

Bone scans also help clarify the battle picture, Thurberger says. The bone of the forearm, with the arrowhead stuck in it, the one with which the excavation of the battlefield began, on the X-ray, seems to show signs of healing. In the Antiquity article of 2011 of the year, a team of researchers suggested that the man was injured at the beginning of the battle, but was able to continue fighting for several days or weeks before he died, which may mean that the conflict was not a one-time clash, but a series battles for several weeks.

(Bronze arrowhead, breaking the skull, reached the brain)

But a microscopic study told a different story: What initially looked like healing — the indistinct lines around the X-ray tip actually turned out to be a layer of broken bone, compressed by a single blow, which probably turned out to be fatal. “It made us reconsider the version that the event took place over a period of weeks,” says Thurberger. So far, there are no bodies with signs of healing wounds, which indicates the likelihood that the battle took place in one, or maximum, several days. "If we are dealing with a single event, and not with collisions for several weeks, then this greatly affects our interpretation of the scale of the conflict."

Last year in Hamburg, a team of engineers used a technique developed to simulate collisions with aircraft details in order to understand what types of strikes the warriors were subjected to. For example, at first glance, an archaeologist, the femur, broken close to the hip joint indicates a possible fall from a horse. In our time, such injuries occur among motorcyclists and riders in the fall.

But modeling tells a different story. Melanie Schwinning and Hella Harten-Bug, archaeologists and engineers from the University of Hamburg, examined the physical properties of the bronze-age bone and weapons, along with damage specimens from a fall from a horse. Experimental archaeologists also stuck reconstituted flint and bronze tips in dead pigs and examined the damage.

Schwingning and Harten-Bug say that the bronze tip of the spear, falling into the bone at an acute angle down, is able to break the femur, cutting it in half like a log. “When we modeled it, everything became more like a handgun, and not a fall from a horse,” says Schwinning. "We could even restore the power of the impact, which, in fact, is not too great." According to their estimates, a man of average build, having invested the weight of his body with a spear, could do it.

Why people gathered in this place to fight and die is another mystery that archaeological data helps to unravel. The valley of Tollense is narrow here, just 50 meters in some places. Some parts are swampy, while others have solid ground. This place could be a vanishing point for travelers crossing the North European Plain.

The 2013 geomagnetic survey of the year revealed the existence of an 120 meter bridge or a gati that ran through the valley. The structures excavated during two seasons of the excavation turned out to be made of wooden pillars and stones. Radiocarbon dating has shown that although much of the design is older than the battle time by more than 500 years, parts of it could be built or rebuilt around the same epoch when the battle took place. It is assumed that the structure could be used for centuries, being a well-known landmark.

“The crossing played an important role in this conflict. Maybe one group was trying to cross over, while the other was hindering it, ”says Thurberger. "The conflict broke out here and turned into a battle near the river."

(The current, peacefully winding river Tollense, was once the site of a formidable battle)

Subsequently, the winners must have thwarted everything of value from the bodies they could get to, and then threw the corpses into the shallow waters, which protected them from predators and birds. On the bones there are no traces of griping and dragging, usually left by scavengers.

All human and horse remains were under one or two meters of water in those places where the riverbed could have been in the Bronze Age. Together with these remains, gold rings were found, most likely worn in hair, spiral rings made of tin, which may have been worn on the fingers, and bronze spirals, probably decorative. The dead fell or were dumped into deep places of the river and quickly went to the bottom, where their valuables became inaccessible to robbers.

At the time of the battle, there seemed to be no cities or even small villages in Northern Europe. According to archaeologists, the local population had some connections with Scandinavia and lived large families in individual farms. The population density was less than 5 people per square kilometer. The nearest known major settlement was more than 350 kilometers south of here in Watenstedt. The landscape of that time differed little from the rural areas of modern Europe, with the exception of roads, telephones or radio.

With all this, chemical indicators show that most of the soldiers from Tollense came here from a distance of hundreds of kilometers. The isotopes in your teeth show what kind of food and water you consumed as a child, which in turn reflects the surrounding geology, being a marker of the place where you grew up. A retired archaeologist from the University of Madison (Wisconsin) Doug Price analyzed the isotopes of strontium, oxygen and carbon in thirty teeth from Tollense. Only a few of them had a typical result for the North European Plain, stretching from Holland to Poland. Other teeth came here from afar, although Price cannot yet indicate exactly where the price is. “The scatter in isotope values ​​is really large,” he says. "We can firmly assert that the dead have come from many remote places."

Further clues came from the isotopes of another element - nitrogen, telling about the diet. Nitrogen isotopes on the teeth of several people suggest that there was a lot of millet in their diet, which at that time was more characteristic of southern, but not northern, Europe.

Ancient DNA could help uncover much more. By comparing with other samples of the Bronze Age from different places in Europe at that time, one could determine the homeland of warriors, as well as such features as eye and hair color. Genetic analyzes have just begun, but for now they support the long-range version. The DNA of the teeth suggests that some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans, and others to the inhabitants of present-day Poland and Scandinavia. "This is not a band of local idiots," said a geneticist from the University of Mainz, Joachim Burger. "This is a very heterogeneous population."

As Vandkilde of Aarhus University says: “This is an army similar to that described in Homer's epic, made up of small military units that came together to capture Troy,” an event that appears to have happened a little less than 100 years in 1184 BC All this speaks of the development of social organization, says Yantzen. “To organize a battle like this, to overcome a great distance and gather all these people in one place is a great achievement,” he says.

So far, the team has published only a small number of articles for review. Stopping the excavation, replenishing the funds, they are now busy preparing publications. But archaeologists familiar with the project claim that its value can not be overestimated. Tollense can lead to a revision of a whole historical period in the territory from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, says archaeologist Christian Christiansen of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. “This opens the door to many new facts about how the societies of the Bronze Age were organized,” he says.

For example, there is solid evidence that this battle was not the first for those people. Twenty-seven percent of skeletons show signs of healed wounds from earlier battles, including three skulls with healed injuries. “It’s hard to tell about the reasons for these wounds, but they don’t look typical of young peasants,” says Yantzen.

(This skull, discovered in the valley of Tollense, provides clear evidence of trauma from a blunt object, possibly from a club.)

The standard metal weapons and the remains of horses that were found mixed together with human bones indicate that at least some of the fighters were well equipped and trained. “These are not peasant soldiers who have fought once every few years,” says Thurberger. "These are professional warriors."

Body armor and shields appeared in Northern Europe centuries before the Tollense conflict and were to belong to the warrior class. “If you fight in armor and helmet and armor, you need daily training or you cannot move,” says Hansen. That is why, for example, the biblical David, a shepherd, refused to put on armor and a bronze helmet before a duel with Goliath. “This type of training is central to a specialized group of warriors,” says Hansen. In Tollens, these bronze-armed cavalry could be a kind of officer class leading infantrymen with simpler weapons.

But why did such significant military forces converge in a narrow river valley in northern Germany? Christiansen says that this period seemed to be a very turbulent era in the territory from the Mediterranean to the Baltic Sea. In Greece, the advanced Mycenaean civilization fell around the same time that the battle of Tollens took place. In Egypt, the pharaohs boasted victories over the "Peoples of the Sea", marauders from distant lands, plunging neighboring Hittites. And soon after Tollense, the scattered rural estates of Northern Europe were replaced by populous, well-protected settlements, formerly known only in the south. “Around 1200 BC there has been a radical change in the direction of societal and cultural development, ”says Vandkild. "Tollense comes in a period when we see war intensifying everywhere."

Tollense looks like the first step in the direction of life that still exists with us today. Starting from the scale and brutality of battles and ending with a class of warriors equipped with sophisticated weapons, these events of the distant past are connected with later and familiar conflicts. “This could be the first evidence of a turning point in social organization and military affairs in Europe,” says Vandkilde.

Outfitting warriors during the battle:

1. A spear.

Bronze spear tip.
Archaeologists have discovered this tip by the river Tollense. Wounds in the shape of a diamond, left on the bones, suggest that the warriors used such spears with great efficiency.

2. Warhorse

Small, stocky horses.
Archaeologists have discovered the remains of 5 horses on the Tollense battlefield. They are small, similar to the Icelandic horse in the photo. Warriors could ride them during a battle, or use them as pack animals. Those who possessed such animals were probably elite warrior class and had bronze weapons.

3. Clothing.
Military fashion.
The clothes of the people who died at Tollense were either stolen after the battle by robbers, or completely rotted away over thousands of years. But other rare finds of the time suggest that people probably wore raincoats and other draping clothes, like kilts, as well as leather belts. They could also wear felt hats or bronze helmets for protection.

4. Sword.

Cuts from the sword.
No swords were found on the battlefield, probably due to the fact that they were taken by robbers. But the bones found at the excavation site, similar to a rib with two cuts, suggest that the combatants used swords. Archaeologists have found a sword buried near the battlefield, because swords were included in the complex funeral rites of that time.

5. Ring for hair.

Gold rings for the hair of warriors.
These spiral gold rings, apparently used to adorn the hair, were found among the bodies of Tollense. Other Bronze Age graves contain similar rings as well as crests, which suggests that warriors, at least sometimes, had a well-groomed appearance.

6. Bow and arrows.

Deadly arrows.
Near Tollens, archaeologists have discovered many bronze arrowheads, including one stuck in the back of the skull. While rich warriors used bronze, the archers with low status, most likely, the tips were flint, also found at the excavation site.

Comments

[Michael67]

"About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. Information about this clash cannot be found in any history book: ...".
And so it went on. To the present day. To our present.
And the means of destruction of their own kind improved and developed.
And we came to nuclear, neutron, chemical, bacteriological and more terrible weapons.
And what ultimately we will come to, God alone knows.
Will we come at all?

[venaya]

Quote: Michael67

"About 3200 years ago, two armies collided ... Information about this collision cannot be found in any history book: ...".

And the basic reason for all this is that the very science of "history" began to emerge only in the 400th century. Everything that happened before is covered with a thick layer of darkness, hence, and it is from here that all our misunderstandings, all our limitations in such knowledge come from. Before that, there were separate myths of various peoples, sometimes recorded in such works as the Vedas, Torah, etc., depending on the places of origin of such sources. And the chronicles usually cannot be called sufficiently serious sources, since the discovered lists are usually no more than XNUMX years old, this is not serious, due to the huge number of people who want to distort their originals.

[Lex.]

"history" began to emerge only in the XVII-I do not agree, history appeared when the writing appeared

[venaya]

Quote: Lex.

history appeared when writing appeared

So try to give us your version of the time of the emergence of writing. I am sure that your mistake in determining the time for the start of writing will be very, very significant. And then, one should never forget the simple truth that writing on fire-hazardous media will not be stored for a long time, let’s recall at least the fires in the libraries. And as for writing on stones, so far there are no sufficiently reliable methods for determining the time of their writing. Although, on the other hand, there are already some progress and great successes in scientific disciplines of various directions.

[Maki Avellevich]

And as for writing on stones, so far there are no sufficiently reliable methods for determining the time of their writing

That's right, but still at least a little earlier than

"history" began to emerge only in the XNUMXth century

[venaya]

Quote: Maki Avellievich

anyway, at least a little earlier than:
"history" began to emerge only in the XNUMXth century

Why are you trying to replace concepts? Even here on this site it was noted that no historical research was carried out before the XVIIth century, and the fact that according to modern methods some forms of developed writing are determined by the age as many as millions of years. So now we will invent that then there were works on historical science? So the XVIIth century, and not a century earlier, otherwise we will reach complete moralisms in definitions. If you are able to provide other information on this subject, then please justify, give the society your examples.

[Maki Avellevich]

Why are you trying to replace concepts?

According to your logic, everything that was written before the 17th century is just a calligraphy exercise, but from the 17th century they began to write "real" "history".
Herodotus, Josephus Flavius ​​and Plato were simply scribes who can not be compared with the giants by thinkers of the 18,19,20 centuries.

[venaya]

"Herodotus, Josephus Flavius ​​and Plato"- And what, did anyone find the originals of their works ??? It is still not clear in what language they wrote, if of course they wrote at all! Everything that we still know, so the primary source is the" translations "in French, which itself appeared recently.There are rumors that the primary sources were some Arab sources, but they have not yet been found, have disappeared without a trace.Modern Greece itself arose in the XNUMXth century, according to the research of linguists, the Greek language is one of the youngest, and still an unformed language, and according to the latest research of linguists, it is a kind of chaotic mixture of Russian with dialects of the Turkic languages ​​and therefore does not have its followers.So, the current historical science relies on undocumented fakes, I have researched this issue for many years and found that "history" rests on the XNUMXth century, not earlier.

[Maki Avellevich]

So the current historical science relies on undocumented fakes, I have researched this issue for many years and found that the entire science of "history" rests on the XNUMXth century, not earlier.

I think I'm starting to understand your approach to this topic.
But please tell me 'what does the book mean in this case? "Sovereign" , Niccolo Machiavelli, published 1532?

[saygon66]

- The current historical science ... "All dinosaurs were the same ... It's just that scientists collect them differently every time ..."

[KaPToC]

The earliest works of the "scribblers" mentioned by you date back to the 18th century, there are no more ancient copies.

[Lex.]

So try to give us your version of the time of writing.
Well, the wars waged by ancient Rome, for example, the war with Carthage, the Gauls, all even there are described the oldest battle of Egypt with Babylon, etc.

[Lex.]

So try to give us your version of the time of writing.
Well, the wars waged by ancient Rome, for example, the war with Carthage, the Gauls, all even there are described the oldest battle of Egypt with Babylon, etc.

[KaPToC]

And who wrote these descriptions and when? What does the description of the battle, written after several thousand years, prove? Pure fiction.

[KaPToC]

Writing appeared in the 9-10 centuries of OUR era, no earlier documents exist in nature

[Theline]

Do not disgrace.

[KaPToC]

Well, it's too late for you to worry about this.

[Maki Avellevich]

Quote: KaPToC

Writing appeared in the 9-10 centuries of our era

You make a little mistake, for only 5000-6000 years.

read a brochure about Gilgamesh at your leisure, though the truth is printed in cuneiform writing ...

[OlegLex]

history as a science really appeared not long ago, and writing gave chronicles that periodically corresponded and changed to suit the situation, as now in principle

[hrych]

Pay attention to the high level of production of jewelry and weapons, in particular tips. Bronze - an alloy of metals, implies metallurgy. There is horse breeding, etc. And for us, again, they painted some savages in a primitively crafted hide, such as fusing metals, separating them from the breed and forging the tip of the spear, but there is not enough mind to sew retuza. It is clear that clothing, unlike bones and metals, is not preserved, but it affects the stupidity and obstinacy of scientists. It is clear that a couple of villains is manipulating history, like Miller with Norman heresy, but thousands of scientists and historians begin to sincerely believe and promote such a Saramschina. It does not fit, however, that besides Egypt and Babylon, thousands of armies are fighting in the north, moreover with better weapons and cavalry, when only the pharaoh could allow the horse and then in a useless cart. So the climate in the north itself will not allow you to run bare-back, as in Egypt, which the Amonites actually did.

[Yuyuka]

It does not fit, however, that besides Egypt and Babylon, thousands of armies are fighting in the north, moreover with better weapons and cavalry, when only the pharaoh could allow the horse and then in a useless cart. So the climate in the north itself will not allow you to run bare-back, as in Egypt, which the Amonites actually did.

all modern history is bursting at the seams ... there is nothing reliable - to take the same "discovery" of America. It turns out that at that time there were world maps comparable to today's ones in accuracy, and Columbus could use them. And in the same Karelia there is so much evidence of the existence of a different climate and traces of civilizations! And you don't even have to go far for an example of distorting history - modern Europe and Ukraine, and only a few decades have passed ... What can we say about hundreds and thousands of years

[Vadim42]

Totally agree with you. Looking at the present, the past can be assumed, it turns out that from ancient times the Russians took the habit of warming up on the Germans. Hence, at the genetic level, fear and not the love of Europeans for Russia.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Vadim42

ancient times, Russians took the habit of warming up on the Germans

if you look at everything from a different point of view, for example, there were no Russians, Germans, who else is there, you can come up with yourself, but there was a people inhabiting one empire, and like Ukraine now, those who were trapping started to trap, and from the east constantly people came with a sedative, as in 1945, and 1812 ...! since Paris, a couple of Berlin ... - this is only a written story, why can not you measure the story back further and measure it in the same vein ???

[pol_pol]

Not the "ancient Russians" on the "Germans", but the ancestors of the Russians on the ancestors of the Germans.

[Spnsr]

but in general, it looks like the cricket and baseball players (it’s strange how the tree didn’t decompose for 2500 ?!) didn’t want to work, they decided to re-educate them, but they arranged a meeting, they came, and there ...., well, in general a good target for training archers and spearmen !!!
strangeness, the shafts of spears and arrows rotted, but there are no bats and hammers for a crack!

[Weyland]

Quote: hrych

And we, once again painted, some savages in a primitively crafted hide, such as fusing metals, separating them from the rock and forging the tip of the spear, can

Despite the fact that archaeologists are well aware of the looms of the Neolithic era - i.e. People learned to weave much earlier than to melt metal! And the peoples of the North, where clothing made of skins prevailed, still had beautifully sewn fur coats, etc. very comfortable design, not a "piece of mammoth skin around a mighty waist"!

[KaPToC]

On the contrary, thousands of scientists, governments, religions, peoples write a false story in their interests, and only a few fight for a clean, true story.

[Bayun]

Absolutely agree! Fine gold jewelery, does not fit in any way with the "skins". And silicon tips were cheap and angry. We have bullets, too, just from lead, and not from any "space" materials. Linen and hemp fabrics were definitely known in the North for 5000 thousand years BC. Just because of such finds, you will have to rewrite ALL history ...

[derik1970]

In addition, radiocarbon analysis is lying and it’s exactly the amount that it shows, or they help to lie with it ... often all events occurred in a very short period of time between themselves or at the same time and they are considered as different events with different significant time intervals already in tens of millions of years ... For example, to take the same Cretaceous period as a result of the flood itself, at once everyone drowned and therefore the same mammoths were mothballed. Humanity has existed for no more than 7000 years ... so all dates are very relative ... interpretation of events of millions of years is convenient for Darwinists, but nevertheless does not explain everything

[CTEPX]

Quote: derik1970

Humanity has existed for no more than 7000 years ...

Quite possibly. And here https://aftershock.news/?q=node/379579 a hypothesis is given that takes away modern civilization for only 2000 years.

[Vend]

Quote: venaya

that such a science as "history" itself began to emerge only in the XNUMXth century.

Yes you? And where then put Herodotus, Tacitus and many others?

[venaya]

Quote: Wend

And where then put Herodotus, Tacitus and many others?

Shove them in folk epos, without defining this very people, as well as the author, the language of the author, the time and place of writing these immortal works. By the way, about the birds: there are more than one table and not only in England, but also in other countries, there are disputes regarding the authorship of the immortal creations of William Shakespeare. The fact is that this merchant and director of the Globus Theater was an absolutely illiterate person, as evidenced by the personal belongings discovered after his death. These people attribute the authorship to the more literate and more competent aristocrats in these areas and events, who, due to their high position in society, could not acknowledge the authorship of these works.

[Vend]

Quote: venaya

Quote: Wend

And where then put Herodotus, Tacitus and many others?

Shove them in folk epos, without defining this very people, as well as the author, the language of the author, the time and place of writing these immortal works. By the way, about the birds: there are more than one table and not only in England, but also in other countries, there are disputes regarding the authorship of the immortal creations of William Shakespeare. The fact is that this merchant and director of the Globus Theater was an absolutely illiterate person, as evidenced by the personal belongings discovered after his death. These people attribute the authorship to the more literate and more competent aristocrats in these areas and events, who, due to their high position in society, could not acknowledge the authorship of these works.

Yes worthy historians who brought knowledge of their eras to the epic. And by the way, from what side is the playwright Shakespeare standing next to historians. Do not confuse Herodotus and Aesop. This is Aesop telling fables. And people who sought to convey knowledge of their eras to descendants are worthy of respect. Ignorance is worse than theft.

[Observer2014]

I think that the primitive NATO "snatched"!
For there was no cocacola then. And the NATO allies cannot fight without this "miraculous elixir."

[Spnsr]

Quote: Observer2014

I think that the primitive NATO "snatched"!
For there was no cocacola then. And the NATO allies cannot fight without this "miraculous elixir."

no, these are the first Ukrainians, as they would say now, they were breaking away from the Russian world, as I don’t remember who said, we are still, but we have already become it (s) ...

[Sirocco]

Quote: Michael67

And what ultimately we will come to, God alone knows.
Will we come at all?

As one of the great people said?

Albert Einstein “I do not know what weapons the third world war will be waged, but the fourth with sticks and stones”

So anything is possible.
Now, what’s intriguing me is Egypt,

In Egypt, the pharaohs boasted of victories over the “Peoples of the Sea,” looters from distant lands who plunged the neighboring Hittites.

As historians and archaeologists convince us, the Pyramids are about 4 thousand years old, judging by the fact that they unearthed (weapons and other jewelry), my doubts have become even more firmly established that the Pyramids are not 4 thousand years old, but more, because this is not a bronze instrument build, and with such accuracy.
Or all the same, Einstein was right, the war was fought with what remained and what they could create after a larger war.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Sirocco

Or all the same, Einstein was right, the war was fought with what remained and what they could create after a larger war.

well yes! especially when you consider that back in the 17th century, the Saxons brazenly tried to fight with wooden guns

[KaPToC]

Wooden cannons were used for a long time by everyone, only with the development of metelurgy bronze appeared, and then cast iron.
For example, in the battle of the Polish army with the Mongols, smokes are described, which enveloped the ranks of the Mongol army. When I was a child, it was clear to me that these were guns (heh, the backward nomads had no guns in the Polish army), but historians sculpt us with hunchbacks, explain everything with some kind of mystic golem.
By the way, the Chinese guns did not know before the advent of Europeans, which casts doubt on the very invention of gunpowder by the Chinese.

[KaPToC]

No structure will stand idle for four thousand years, however, even a thousand will not stand idle.

[romandostalo]

Correctly!!! And airplanes cannot fly because they are heavier than air !!!

[KaPToC]

Quote: romandostalo

And airplanes cannot fly because they are heavier than air !!!

But the ships do not sink - they are lighter than water, why these stupid idioms? Have you decided the whole world to demonstrate their primeval ignorance?

[SlavaS]

Srimad Bhagavatam to help you.
http://bharati.ru/audiokniga-shrimad-bhagavatam-1/

[Sascha]

Purely by chance I discovered that at about the same time, on the island of Saaremaa in the Baltic Sea, the largest Kaali meteorite fell. In size, a thousand times larger than the one that recently fell in Chelyabinsk.
All the inhabitants of Northern Europe could observe its impressive flight, and the roar of the explosion was heard over hundreds of kilometers.
I am completely far from thinking to directly connect these two events, but this was far from an ordinary phenomenon. Which could not leave a mark in the minds and epos of the then inhabitants of northern Europe.
Fall Crater is only 700 km away. from the place of the described battle. Perhaps it was a little earlier, or a little later, but it was precisely in those years!
Those people who participated in this battle, or whose remains were discovered, could not know about this event.

[jekasimf]

Come, come. Again to the tips and clubs.

[Skifotavr]

Quote: Michael67

"About 3200 years ago, two armies clashed at a river crossing near the Baltic Sea. Information about this clash cannot be found in any history book: ...".
And so it went on. To the present day. To our present.
And the means of destruction of their own kind improved and developed.
And we came to nuclear, neutron, chemical, bacteriological and more terrible weapons.
And what ultimately we will come to, God alone knows.
Will we come at all?

Nevertheless, nothing has served the world in the world more than nuclear and thermonuclear weapons. And imagine what would remain of the world if it only remained for those who created it first.

[silverwolf88]

it’s just that this battle didn’t have a Homer ...
BUT time will tell ... what if the event is compared with any chronicle ... which they could not understand earlier? ... it could still be ...

[Nikolay K]

It is very likely that some of the participants in the battle are immigrants from Troy or their allies. After the defeat of the Trojan civilization, the "people of the sea" appeared throughout Europe, from Pyrenees and Britain to the northern Black Sea coast. Apparently most of the settlers came to the Eastern Baltic. This is evidenced by modern data from genetic research and a certain intersection of the Baltic and Greek languages ​​(remember at least the well-known use of "es" at the end)

[Saints]

I, too, when I read the article, I thought that it was possible that some kind of immigrants were going. And a lot, hence the organization of a large number of people, simply had to. And there were local discontent, who also organized on the basis of a large number of immigrants. Hence the epic in those days. Well, let's go. The experience of large choppers, large settlements. People, it seems to me, never knew how to live peacefully.

[KaPToC]

Troy - fiction, nowhere but a famous work is not mentioned.

[romandostalo]

Well, yes, but Schliemann found a settlement of ancient ukrov!

[poquello]

“Most believed that ancient society was peaceful and that men of the Bronze Age engaged in trade, etc.”

wars have always been

[SSR]

Quote: poquello

“Most believed that ancient society was peaceful and that men of the Bronze Age engaged in trade, etc.”

wars have always been

Only in history there are bold gaps, Russia, too, once and type appeared and for thousands of years we had "empty".

[venaya]

Quote from S.S.R.

Russia, too, somehow appeared, and for thousands of years we had "empty".

So "empty", but what do you want, 3500 years ago the Russians left the territory near the White Sea for India, created a writing there, and a syllabic-alphabetical-phonetic one, apparently they also wrote "Vedas" there. So none of them remained on the Great Russian Plain, or rather should not have stayed.

[Evgeniy667b]

Yes, you read the "Slavic-Aryan Vedas" for interest. You look and thoughts will appear!

[dauria]

Something even felt uncomfortable from such an article. Think about it, people were chopped up, died, the winners rejoiced ... And who were, where were they born, why did they come, where did they come from? what names are already here, everything is erased and will never be restored. There was also a tsar, probably, and I suppose that he had become famous "forever". Eh, people ...
And what will remain of us not "forever", but at least in ten thousand years? No languages ​​of today, no religions of today, no countries or nations. Even if some learned worm "War and Peace" or a chronicle of ours turns up, this grain of sand will drown in the sea of ​​events that will take place during this time.
Well, it’s obvious and true, a piece of life has been given to you from inside to ... now it’s yours and no further, live and do not blame others.

[Michael67]

Yeah. There, too, was his yerdaganchik ...
The turtle is probably the same in geometry ... there, in the picture. Lies.

[Reptiloid]

I support you. I agree with your remark, but it’s even sadder that the motives, ideas for which so many people died, and what goal was achieved are not known.

[but still]

Archaeologists have one hope of knowing how things really were. Article plus - detailed and neutral. Aptly indicated coincidence with the end of Mycenaean civilization.

[ando_bor]

This time 1200 years BC - the collapse of the Bronze Age, then not only the Mycenaean but the entire global world perished, some civilizations under the clean one, who survived strongly shrank, changed. Associated with powerful climatic changes. How it happened in Egypt in the Old Testament is described - "Egyptian executions" is almost a documentary description of the cataclysms that took place, - the Nile stopped spilling, the population decreased 10 times, cut, dumped. Here, the same is probably from somewhere dumped with the local clashed, and reduced, resources became less. And then the Dark Ages are called so at the time in Greece, but F was almost everywhere.
the fact is that even now these factors influence events, but they are no longer the only ones in antiquity.

[CTEPX]

Quote: ando_bor

This time is 1200 years BC - the collapse of the Bronze Age

It is likely that this happened all the same in about 1200, i.e. about 800 years ago, after a global climate disaster. As suggested in the State Customs Committee (hypothesis of the radical theory of disasters).

[ando_bor]

And in 1200 of our era there was a powerful climatic mover, - the Mongols conquered, here you need to understand that before the Mongols came to Russia, the Mongolia came there, something similar happened 1200 years BC, the traces in the article are described.
In general, these cycles have a period of 600 years, the whole history is strung on them + -, they are of slightly different intensity, and it seems that 1200 years BC was the most powerful.
- The whole civilized world has perished, according to some parameters of globalization, it has only recently departed, it has not been back for several centuries, but this collapse has given a technological breakthrough, - they began to use iron massively.

[vsoltan]

The article is interesting, but I, as a doctor who studied anatomy, as well as a person who is interested in certain questions of history, have captions and comments under the pictures:

1.Flint arrowhead in forearm bone
What is "forearm bone" ... I don't know. ..the forearm is 2 bones - the ulna and the radius. And in the picture is a bone humeral! and it’s unique!

2.(The current, peacefully winding river Tollense, was once the site of a formidable battle)


An ideal place for tactical maneuvers and local massacres. What is not clear to gentlemen archaeologists here?

3. Gold rings for the hair of warriors.
These spiral gold rings, apparently used to adorn the hair, were found among the bodies of Tollense. Other Bronze Age graves contain similar rings as well as crests, which suggests that warriors, at least sometimes, had a well-groomed appearance.

Generally weak-minded. .. what kind of jewelry? Well maintained view? The purpose of such rings is purely utilitarian - to collect long hair in a bun before the fight, which will protect the neck from behind. ..

Overall, a dull impression from German archaeologists. ..or translation inaccuracies?

[poquello]

Quote: vsoltan

1.Flint arrowhead in forearm bone
What is "forearm bone" ... I don't know. ..the forearm is 2 bones - the ulna and the radius. And in the picture is a bone humeral! and it’s unique!

well, yes, I automatically thought "a piece in my shoulder", but did not look at the signature

[Revolver]

Quote: vsoltan

..or translation inaccuracies?

Yes, the translation is still the same.

Diamond wounds

In English, [diamond] means diamond, as well as rhombus. The wounds are clearly of a rhombic shape, but the translator grasped the first thing that the dictionary suggested.

[Dikson]

Something I hardly believe that a simple archer will drag a GOLD hair spiral .. It is much easier to grab hair with a leather cord .. Maybe such a translation .. Yes, and such a scatter is not frail - from silicon tips to bronze tips of copies and gold jewelry ..

[RUSS]

Quote: Dikson

.. Yes, and such a scatter is not frail obtained - from silicon tips to bronze tips of spears and gold jewelry

In 1812, for example, they already fought respectively with firearms, but our Bashkir horsemen chopped the French with sabers and shot arrows with bows or, for example, the battle in Sudan on September 2, 1898 (the Battle of Omdurman), there the Maxim machine gun was already lit up by the British, and the Sudanese in chain mail with spears and swords were, that’s where the scatter is!

[Spnsr]

Quote: RUSS

In 1812, for example, they already fought respectively with firearms, but our Bashkir horsemen chopped the French with sabers and shot arrows with bows or, for example, the battle in Sudan on September 2, 1898 (the Battle of Omdurman), there the Maxim machine gun was already lit up by the British, and the Sudanese in chain mail with spears and swords were, that’s where the scatter is!

this is the trick, it seems that the victims suddenly imagined themselves to be fighters with bats and sticks for a crack to come to beat someone, or maybe they were lured there! and then they were stupidly shot from bows ....

[Bashibuzuk]

"... Generally feeble-minded ... what kind of jewelry? A well-groomed look? The purpose of such rings is purely utilitarian - before a fight to collect long hair in a bun that will protect the neck from behind ...
Overall, a dismal impression from German archaeologists. ..or inaccuracies in translation? ... "
...
Stopitsott, Vyacheslav, vsoltan, stopitsot.
The weak-minded still said little.
They are moronic and at the same time pedrils. That is why their warriors are well-groomed, with a redhead and tsatskas on their head in the Bronze Age. On Rubilovo in the swamp.
Chic, shine, beauty.
...
And translation is so machine-based, at its core.
...
They showed a broken skull with a stuck tip ... the skull from the inside and the skull from the outside.
Very impressive.
But judging by the shape of this place - Tollens, it seems to me that there was a permanent settlement there.
There is a river on three sides, a settlement in the bend.
There they chopped. There probably was a cemetery.
So, from the number of bones, I would not build the GREAT battle of the Bronze Age.
But a raid, with the purpose of robbery, on a fully developed settlement - I easily and simply admit.
Fighting in such swampy places is so boring.
But the robbery is the most.
...
German ..... scientists .... know better, of course. But the well-groomed painfully hurts me ....

[saygon66]

- And if so: All the tsatskis that hang on a fighter are taken from the battle, on robbery and marauding .... and if they hang on one, then he is a skilled and successful fighter ... otherwise they would hang on someone else ...
- And the Vikings and Scythians loved to decorate themselves with a piece of gold ...
- But the jewelry found in Germany ... by chem. composition, it is from Wed. Asia ... How?

[saygon66]

- And if so: All the tsatskis that hang on a fighter are taken from the battle, on robbery and marauding .... and if they hang on one, then he is a skilled and successful fighter ... otherwise they would hang on someone else ...
- And the Vikings and Scythians loved to decorate themselves with a piece of gold ...
- But the jewelry found in Germany ... by chem. composition, it is from Wed. Asia ... How?

[Revolver]

Quote: Dikson

Something I hardly believe that a simple archer will carry a GOLD hair spiral

If we assume that the spiral was a religious symbol, such as an amulet from arrows, spears, swords, then we can understand. If you believe that the amulet works, then for such a thing even a simple archer could give the last cow, or even give his wife - his own skin is more expensive. It somehow somehow is less trusted in a leather lace than in a golden spiral, although hair holds no worse, or even better.

[Vvol]

And this is as it is now - one pathetic SSOshnik walks around in the “multicam”, even from the domestic “Vartech”, in a helmet with “rails” and with “cut ears” for active headphones, with a “tuned” machine gun, and some fighter Of the usual “combined arms” he uses the maximum of the “Warrior”, if not the “Permyachka”, and is armed with the good old AK without the Picatinny rail and the corresponding type of optical mounts (and often without any optical mounts). And to take some kind of "militia" - so there he will come out! Volunteers donated to one “tactical outfit”, and the other got a little smaller - they walk in the “flora” and “kirzachs” ... When you need to mobilize a bunch of people for a really large-scale “rubilovo” - without the so-called the "regiment" of the peasant militia is not enough.

[saygon66]

-Rings found in Denmark, approx. 3 cm long ... with a total of 2000 pcs., Date back to 800-900. BC...
- Could be woven into the ends of the hair, as was done in Wed. Of Asia?

[saygon66]

- Tashshili good from Denmark somewhere to the North-West ... Or maybe the loot - to Denmark ...

[shinobi]

The Indian epic Maharbharata describes a dynastic war 4000 years before our era. Yes, not a simple war. Man, people everywhere. So the surprise of specialists here is somehow not very clear. In general, apparently it was some kind of expeditionary corps stomping somewhere on business along the trade route. They immediately crushed the local ones and drowned further.

[Riv]

What kind of expedition could there be at that time and what kind of business could it have there? 13th century BC - This is the foundation of Athens. And in Northern Europe, as historians tell us, savages ran in hides and with clubs.

[saygon66]

- One of the articles about this find mentions that in those places there was a trade route through Europe ... And why would people of those days who did not know the capital construction go to pave the way ... but such that traces are preserved to this day?

[Sascha]

This does not exclude the possibility that one group of people fought in mortal combat with another group.
And in general, it is completely incomprehensible to me what is so unusual here ??
But this passage, like we thought that men were only engaged in trade, but here you go ... that. How to comprehend this .....
Yes, you look at chimpanzees. Lovely ones, eat nuts, scratch the wool, make love. And then everyone rises, and go together to kill the neighboring herd. And they kill everyone indiscriminately, including small cubs. Otherwise, some apples on the trees will not be enough for everyone.
There is always a reason for conflict. A flock of hunters with hungry children does not have any pity and humanism.

[romandostalo]

And if you still look at the baboon in your mouth and remember that they and the meat hawala the only way ........

[Gray brother]

Quote: shinobi

with stomping somewhere on his own business along the trade route

We went from Russian stars to receive :-)

[rotmistr60]

They agreed 3200 years ago, fought for some reason and left a bunch of questions for posterity. Now distant descendants are racking their brains on what happened there and why. So gradually the gaps in history are filled.

[Dimy4]

They’ll come up with a chenite, for example, a yoke.

[Pitot]

And here's what interests me. About 3200 years ago, they fought with bronze weapons, or rather bronze weapons? And what is bronze? A mixture of copper and tin. I’m not talking about the percentage, now it doesn’t matter. And when did they open the tin? And how is it made? What temperatures are needed to evaporate tin from casserite? Again, some kind of crap with historians. But the fact that there was a scuffle is undeniable. The question is when? If we take into account that tin was received at the end of the 18th century AD (if I do not confuse, then even later).

[venaya]

Quote: Pitot

And when did they open the tin? ... Again, some kind of mess with historians. ... If you take into account that tin was received at the end of the 18th century AD (if I do not confuse, then even later).

A little enlightenment: The industrial mining of ore from which the tin was produced was organized by the Phoenicians in Tin Islandsnow called British. For the delivery of this ore, a route was used not along the coast of the Atlantic Ocean, but through the La Mange Strait and further along the Seine River, on which there is the only island now called Cité (there is now Notre Dame Cathedral). Further, the route flowed by land to the Po River, and through the very ancient city of Marseille, by sea ships, it was delivered to the Middle East via the Middle East, where the melting process took place. By the way, the Phoenicians called this area along which the route passed Europe, which in their language means - west. In many Aramaic languages, for example, in Hebrew, this word means the same thing - the west. So the word is not local, but foreign, came from Africa.

[Chiropractor]

UPDATE.
The melting point is 232 degrees Celsius, so you can melt in any bonfire.

And then absurdity seems to pop up - why drag ore from foggy Albion to the sunny South, if it is cheaper to melt in place and transport the tin pigs to their destination?
But there is a nuance - starting from 13 degrees Celsius and below the "tin plague" begins - tin is rebuilt from white to gray and crumbles into powder. The lower the temperature, the faster the process. Napoleon with tin fittings and cutlery of his warriors, and the expedition of Cattle in Antarctica, got burned because of the fuel leaked from the tin sealed tanks.

So, a wooden spoon is a reliable friend and assistant to the Russian warrior!

[RUSS]

Quote: Kostoprav

Napoleon, with tin fittings and cutlery of his soldiers, was also burnt to it.

Napoleonic soldiers sinned against the Russian partisans, saying that they cut tin buttons from their clothes at night.

[Sascha]

I always said, if you don’t know how the Egyptian pyramids and Stonehenge were built, this is not a reason to blame it on the aliens from Mars. Do not know how, ask an engineer.

[saygon66]

- "called British ..."
- They wrote that the wooden knockers found on the battlefield are made of thorns ... and this, it seems, is an Irish tradition ....

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Pitot

And here's what interests me. About 3200 years ago they fought with bronze weapons, or rather bronze weapons? And what is bronze? A mixture of copper and tin. The question is when? Considering that tin was received at the end of the 18 century of our era (if I don’t confuse, then later).

At, you, dear, have already waved for the whole Bronze Age. By the way, the article writes about tin rings.

[Sascha]

You operate in your reasoning with modern, industrial concepts.
Primitive methods of mining metals relied solely on native mining. Therefore, gold and silver are almost the very first metals known to mankind. Tin and copper are from the same series. Iron was used meteorite.
All this is terribly rare, and terribly expensive things. If earlier, a bronze ax on the farm, now - bryulanty on the ears ....

[An60]

Probably it was a battle of the ancient EU with protoukry, they were not allowed into Europe ...

[Red_Hamer]

Do not laugh, but in the middle from the 12-16 centuries, this is the land of Ukrov (only, do not confuse with Svidomo). They (svidomye) are not just the name "rowed", but with a historical background. To all the rank of rank. Map with medieval German. Mark - border, in German, Scheider - to divide, hence the surveyor. The picture is clickable. At the beginning of the 13th century, the land had already passed to the Germans. The outskirts (borderlands) were then there, but the tribes, although Slavic, are slightly different, the Germans assimilated them even then, so they are squeezing out of the Slavic lands, until now, nothing has changed. The same chain of events stretching back thousands of years! It is the same with the Slavic South, Serbian Krajina, already in our time, and with Ukraine, count in these, our, days, hours.

[venaya]

"Mark - the border, in German. Scheider - to separate, hence the surveyor"- I will try to clarify a little with this term: the Old Russian Goddess Mara is the Goddess of Death, hence the terms Pestilence, Morgue, to die, to stain, that is, to stain, blacken, draw the border as well. Small trade across the border took place across the delineated border, as clearly shown in an old Franco-Italian film - hence such concepts as Market and even a supermarket, that is, once a little trade.By the way, the term of the Latin god of war Mars also comes from the goddess of death Mary, from her the name of the city of Marseille, which is located on the sea where sailors or Pomors often die - hence the term Pomerania.

[Red_Hamer]

The territory of the Polabian Slavs who lived along the Laba, long before the Germans. (Laba is a Slavic name, replaced by the Germans with Elba). According to the German archaeologists themselves, where "everything to the magma is Slavic"! The lands of Brandenburg, in general, if the Germans discover anything, they rewrite it for themselves without knowing the essence, or knowing but keeping silent, or openly hiding. Branibor (in Slavonic letters - "Branny Bor") is a fortress city of Gavolyan (Stodorian), a tribe of the Polabian Slavs, who belonged to the tribal union of the Lyutichi. Maybe from that "unknown event" and Branny Bor? The map picture is enlarged by clicking.

[venaya]

Looked more closely at the map 800 - 950s, apparently it has been drawn for a long time, more recent studies give more ancient names for these years: the city of Hamburg was called Hanburg, and even now Hanover in German sounds the same - Hanover, where the root is clearly manifested " khan "name closer to the Russian language. Prussians - Turkic / Germanic distortion of the word Porusy. It is easy to check, in Russian the terms are more familiar - Pomorie, Volga region, Podvina, Polesie and so on. The term Polyane is especially surprising, because the word Poland is of Latin origin, introduced after the seizure of this territory by the Holy Roman Empire and they gave the new name Polonia, although earlier this part of Porusia was called "Volleva Rus" - like a place of free trade. In the word Polonia, the root is "full" - goods, extraction, which is also associated with trade. Similarly, in many other terms, there are already many new discoveries.

[Nexus 6]

In the land of Brandenburg, still half of the toponyms of the Slavic root. This is understandable even to an amateur. You used to go from Cottbus to Berlin, and drive through Lübben, then Lübbenau, just like we do near St. Petersburg-Luban. The names of some of the Germans there are also ... funny. Luzhitsky sorbes do not scorch at all, they build gymnasiums for themselves, they study their native language.

[Sascha]

I walked in 1987 through the glorious city of Bautsen in Saxony. I didn’t know German then, but mechanically I read all sorts of signs and inscriptions. And suddenly .... Oppa. It is written: "Hradskie vrata" - City gate. I don't understand anything. For some reason, I suddenly began to understand foreign inscriptions. The Germans laugh, it is written in the language of the Sorbs.
Luzhitsky sorbes - not the Germans, but the Slavs, the only small indigenous people in Germany. They live compactly in Saxony, around the town of Bautsen.
I looked at these sorbes. Bearded men are squatting, smoking, drinking beer. Well, yes, the Slavs ... probably. They are only very similar to gypsies.

[Red_Hamer]

http://info-grad.com/slavyanskiye-muzyei-na-tyerritorii-gyermanii-i-polshi/ вот еще интересное "Славянские музеи на территории Германии и Польши".

[Spnsr]

Quote: Red_Hamer

The territory of the Polabian Slavs who lived along the Laba, long before the Germans. (Laba is a Slavic name, replaced by the Germans with Elba). According to the German archaeologists themselves, where "everything to the magma is Slavic"! The lands of Brandenburg, in general, if the Germans discover anything, they rewrite it for themselves without knowing the essence, or knowing but keeping silent, or openly hiding. Branibor (in Slavonic letters - "Branny Bor") is a fortress city of Gavolyan (Stodorian), a tribe of the Polabian Slavs, who belonged to the tribal union of the Lyutichi. Maybe from that "unknown event" and Branny Bor? The map picture is enlarged by clicking.

just a question! Do you really think that there were Slavs, and then the Germans came? where did they come from? and why does no one have a vision of the problem, that they are the same people who, for one reason or another, called themselves Germans, or who else !!!
an obvious example of Ukraine!

[venaya]

Quote: SpnSr

why does no one have a vision of the problem, that they are the same people who, for one reason or another, called themselves Germans, or who else !!!
an obvious example of Ukraine!

According to numerous studies, no noticeable replacement of the ethnic group in those places did not occur as people lived 7000 years ago haplogroups R1a1, and they still live. Another thing is influential, very financially secure groups of interested people who are doing their best to prove what is impossible to prove in principle, namely the change of the ethnic group there. Here they are forever and looking for various tricky pick-ups in order to debate, in every possible way to obscure this issue, and unfortunately they usually succeed.

[Red_Hamer]

No, I don’t think the united people to which both of them belonged was divided earlier than the events described. With the division of the people, the language has changed. And I mean not only the Germans, but also the Europeans as a whole. And the differences are more likely psychophysical, as actually in modern Ukraine. Substitution with other values, a different attitude of life, faith, culture, etc. That's the point, nothing has changed for millennia! And the term Slavs, the common name, is the same as the Germans.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Red_Hamer

a single people to which both of them belonged previously divided

and I know how the situation looks like, there is a small habitat, I decided to separate, and began to pull others along with me, and like the Ukrainians now, they also provoke us, or rather not even the people themselves, but the "elite", well, they were invited to the field play cracker and baseball ....
they staged a maidan, here they are with their bats and clubs for crackers otmaydany! the separs were stalled, but the sediment remained, and this served as a separate flow in the future!
I do not pretend to be historic! but the logic of events from the 17th century to the present day is just that ... and this is at least the very prism through which we must look back into the past !!!
and I doubt that

Quote: Red_Hamer

split earlier

, rather, it was this battle that shredded the people into separate nationalities !!!
and about 2500 !? - I will not express my doubts by ear, I will only say one thing that historians will now do everything so that the real story does not revive, even go as opposed to its previous story !!!

[Red_Hamer]

but I know how the situation is seen, there is a small habitat, I decided to separate from it, and began to drag others along

It may very well be.

rather, it was this battle that shredded the people into separate nationalities !!!

No, the battle is too small. Everything goes to the fact that earlier, impressive events were to blame.

I won’t express my doubts, I’ll say only one thing, that historians will now do everything so that the real story does not revive

As for the historians, they never stopped doing this, but where can you go. There are already such obvious finds on the territory of the same Russia, which at the time is already thought, but they deny the obvious, and still point a finger to Africa. And such a thought creeps in, maybe this is because most historians came from there? And make "their own history"?

[Spnsr]

Quote: Red_Hamer

small battle

do you think?
if in Ukraine the golden eagle was said good, then there would be so many victims, and the rest would become law-abiding citizens of Ukraine ...
Do you think that the battles were as grand as they were under Napoleon? (the question is not for dispute, dialogue) and you think that the number of two three adjacent settlements was more than Kiev now?
the scenario described in the article reminds me more of a beating on the Maidan ... though the “golden eagle” had less authority, especially since the era was different then, now everything is spreading even more through the media, and threats sound literally at that hour and by phone ...

[Sascha]

No, well, they have the same houses, paved paths, sausages smell the same, live nearby, beer, again .... But the language. You won’t get anywhere from this. In Polish, Czech, Slovak, if you really dig around, you can certainly find something in common with German. But this is only for the graduate of the philological faculty of the university. For a native speaker of Russian, it’s easier to learn millennials any Slavic language at the level of spoken than any English or German there.
Then we are surprised that it’s in Holland or in Luxembourg that housewives spar everything in English, and in Saratov, it is given with such difficulty.

[Mountain shooter]

They fought to the death, one horde defeated the other, and did not bother with burial - neither their own, nor, especially, strangers. It's strange. Or the funeral field of the winners was simply not found? Given the population density of that time, it is very rare to collect two serious troops and bring them together. Or are we again building the idea of ​​"local" time on the wrong premises? And there were many more people living in these places. Is it just that almighty time has leveled everything so that even no traces of the cities remain? What could a large army eat in a completely deserted area? By hunting?

[Cartalon]

For me it looks more like the locals ambushed and killed the aliens, since only the strangers found the bones.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Or simply didn’t find the winners? P

or it simply does not exist, due to the fact that they were armed with bows and spears, i.e. bronze, and these bits and sticks for a crack!

[Red_Hamer]

It’s strange. Or simply didn’t find the winners?

anything can happen. Take here Zolotarevskoe massacre 13 century, a bunch of hypotheses. Or here is the 20th century, Myasnaya Bor.

Or are we again building the idea of ​​"local" time on the wrong premises?

About the fact that the area was poorly populated, the Germans said it again)). They said a lot of things about our history, for example.

[saygon66]

- In one of the materials they wrote that the population density at that time was approx. 5 people per sq. km., and a fortified settlement - an outpost - could have been located at the gati on Tollens. It is also mentioned that during this time the area has changed greatly as a result of human activities: "... numerous fields and man-made ponds ...", and that archaeologists were not able to carry out excavations in private land holdings ...

[Sascha]

This suggests that these two hordes were adjacent, and did not move away for half a thousand kilometers from their "supply bases", from their places of residence, where they actually fed. A healthy peasant, a hunter, can take a supply of food for 3-5 days with him - it is quite possible, given that in the local armies no carts and quartermasters have yet been invented. Goat cheese, dried meat, pig's leg in a back bag.

[warriordima]

A cool find, very impressive, already murazhki))

[Red_Hamer]

I can recommend it, though it’s been found a long time ago, but it is impressive no less (the Zolotarevskoe massacre) in the internet.

[igordok]

There are times when for robbers, a bronze sword is more valuable than gold jewelry.

[saygon66]

-Fearful such times turn out ... When a sword in an economy is more expensive than gold ...
- That's about the gold jewelry: In Tollens, we found such bracelets. I saw similar ones at the Museum of the Golden Fund in Tashkent ... only the finish is not so thin and the thickness is just a finger away!

[baudolino]

For some reason, they like the ancient Europeans to represent some homeless people.
Shaving was the norm for both the Slavs and the Celts. And it could be the norm with their ancestors.

[RUSS]

Quote: baudolino

For some reason, they like the ancient Europeans to represent some homeless people.

I agree, in this picture the image of a Bronze Age warrior is closer to the truth.

[demiurg]

1.If you really need it, young men will move through this stream anywhere.
2. The corpses are not robbed properly, but the bronze ax and spear are serious wealth.
3. There is no burial place for the winners.

They were in a hurry.

Someone was running away. Warriors remained to defend the crossing, most likely those who were catching up had carts (chariots) that something that was very valuable but could not crawl across the river without a gati. The winners left the battlefield almost immediately after the battle, following those whom the soldiers defended.

This is when in ancient times a warrior did not rob a defeated enemy? Only when the hatred of the survivors outweighed the greed. Religion is a great agitator for war with infidels / heretics / fire worshipers.

Why do I think that due to the lack of writing in eastern Europe at that time, we do not know many ancient religious wars.

[fzr1000]

It is the warriors of Rohan who overtook Urukhai's squad.

[saygon66]

- "... and they came from the North ... and they were uncountable! The spear pierced my chest!" (C)

[Cartalon]

All this is cryptic, but why does it look like a detachment from the peoples of the sea walking along the amber path

[parusnik]

“To organize a battle like this, to overcome a great distance and gather all these people in one place is a great achievement”... Indeed, it just doesn’t seem like a random clash of tribes ..

[Victor Wolz]

The Bronze Age is a whole unexplored layer. These civilizations are far from backward, and perhaps more developed than in the subsequent Iron Age and even the Middle Ages. Perhaps this is a battle echoing the migration of Aryan tribes to the north to Scandinavia in connection with the growth of population and desertification of the steppe regions of New Russia. Of course, connecting the ancient tribes with the tribes of the Slavs, Prussians or Germans known in the early Middle Ages is obvious rubbish. These peoples could have a close set of DNA, but the language and religion could be completely different, as well as the main occupation of cattle breeding or farming.

[Sascha]

I was once in Estonia, on the island of Saaremaa. There are several very large meteorite craters. A meteorite, in flight fell apart into several parts and fell about 2000 BC.
By the way, at about the same time that the event under discussion occurred. In any case, these people could definitely know about it.
In size, it was a thousand times larger than for example the one that recently fell in Chelyabinsk.
Its impressive flight, theoretically, could be observed by all the inhabitants of then northern Europe. The roar of the explosion was probably heard for hundreds of kilometers. This fact, definitely had to have some effect on the then minds. But, everything died under a layer of time. No evidence was left, either in the legends or in the epic. Endless wars, movements and mixing of peoples all erased even before Rome came to German territory

[ando_bor]

Yes, the civilization of the Bronze Age was very developed, according to the level of globalization, just a few centuries ago they only made up for it, and its death by powerful climatic changes was caused. And all the major historical movers were caused by climate, 1200 years BC the most powerful change was.

[Sobol]

How little we still know!

[RUSS]

Quote: SoboL

How little we still know!

To say the least! Many facts of a hundred years ago are only being discovered, and if we drop into the millennia, we don’t know anything there.

[RUSS]

All the "bronze" states crowded together in the Eastern Mediterranean - with the exception of the civilizations of India and China, whose fate at the end of the Bronze Age will turn out somewhat differently than that of the peoples of the Mediterranean.

Bronze production per capita even in these states was small and highly dependent on the availability of raw materials mined in the country or purchased from outside. In Babylonia, it reached 300 grams per person per year, while in Egypt it was only 50 grams per year per capita. But even these modest amounts of bronze were enough to utterly crush the armies of their "copper" or "stone" neighbors.

Thus, Egypt, being the "grain superpower" of the Bronze Age, due to its poverty in copper and tin ores, found itself in total dependence on the bronze of Asia Minor. This fact of Egypt's resource dependence will later play a fatal role in further events.

However, if you look at the map, you will see that in general, with the exception of small tin deposits in northern Italy, the entire Eastern Mediterranean, despite the fact that the metallurgy of bronze was reliably the most powerful there, is still totally devoid of its own tin. The closest large tin deposits available are northern Spain and English Cornwall. The Spanish tin will be actively mined by the Romans - there it is mostly gangue.

Cornwall's tin was partly a unique object - these are large natural tin placers. As we recall in the case of thorium, if an element is scattered in nature, then sometimes on the shores of seas and rivers nature itself, as if taking pity on people, millions of years before their appearance already concentrates such elements in natural coastal or channel beaches.

Now in Cornwall you can no longer find that original, loose tin - the Cornish mines almost continuously supplied the whole world with tin until the end of the twentieth century (the last tin mine was closed there only in 1994). For its unique, specific and memorable shape, such native loose tin is nicknamed in English "wood tin".

[ando_bor]

In the Caucasus there is no tin available, bronze was mainly made of arsenic, it is worse than tin, but the same is suitable. In general, there are logical assumptions that the first bronzes were arsenic.

[Reptiloid]

Finally, the message of the existence of an older, pagan, pre-Roman Civilization in Europe !!!
I am very pleased that such an article has appeared. Thank you.

[Mantykora]

Northern Europe in the Bronze Age has long been regarded as a quiet backwater, which was in the shadow of the more advanced civilizations of the Middle East and Greece. Bronze, which appeared in the Middle East around 3200 BC, took 1000 years to come here. But the scale of Tollens speaks of greater organization and greater cruelty than previously thought.

"History is a mostly deceitful relational about events generally irrelevant, left to us by historians, mostly idiots." Vysogota iz Korvo (Andrzej Sapkowski "Season of Thunderstorms")

It has long been proven that any military novelties spread rather quickly, depending on the means of communication of the era. Especially if people live relatively close to each other. Therefore, "100 years for bronze" is nonsense. Otherwise, Ancient Hellas would have conquered Europe. On the contrary, the Dorians from the north defeated the Achaeans, who, in turn, defeated the Trojans. And the Dorians founded Sparta.
If a state is far ahead of its neighbors militarily and technologically, empires are formed. If there is no empire, then the neighbors are conditionally equal.

It's just that everything we know from history is not only what the winners recorded (or even rewrote), but also what was generally recorded or preserved.

There is even a theory that history is artificially strongly stretched in time and the "knights" existed at the same time as the Roman legions of the late Roman Empire ... that the "barbarians" are not so barbarians if the Roman legions were defeated ... that the Roman emperors hired troops of barbarians to protecting the borders, including due to the fact that they were not inferior in quality to the Roman army.

[RUSS]

Quote: Mantykora

There is even a theory that history is artificially strongly stretched in time and "knights" existed simultaneously with the Roman legions of the late Roman Empire

There is such a theory - for example, King Arthur (some scholars are convinced that the real king Arthur was a Roman, and his name comes from the ancient Roman name Artorius, changed by the Celts) and his knights are Roman warriors.

Quote: Mantykora

that "barbarians" are not so barbarians if the Roman legions are defeated

They were called barbarians so because their conversation for the Romans sounded like "bar-bar-var", and only barbarians in the sense in which they were called by their contemporaries.

Quote: Mantykora

that the Roman emperors hired barbarian units to protect the borders, including due to the fact that they were not inferior in quality to the Roman

The last legionnaires at sunset of the Empire were mostly either Celts or most Germans.

[Victor Wolz]

(The last legionnaires at sunset of the Empire were mostly either Celts or most Germans.) - As well as Sarmatians, Greeks, Arabs, Moors and Spaniards, but most of them were Roman citizens. The Romans and Italians themselves, no longer sought a military career. This was the decline of the empire, as well as civil wars, but it must be said that the barbarians served the empire fairly and worthily and extended its existence.

[Sascha]

Like, black football players in European football clubs ....

[RUSS]

Quote: Victor Wolz

(The last legionnaires at sunset of the Empire were mainly either Celts or most Germans.) - As well as Sarmatians, Greeks, Arabs, Moors and Spaniards, but most of them were Roman citizens

Mavry (lat. Mauri) - Arabs and Berbers of North-West Africa and Europe professing Islam between the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries, during Rome there was no concept of the Moor ....
The same goes for the Spaniards ...

[Victor Wolz]

And what is the best of the Iberians, Celtiberians, Lusitans and Nubians?))) Not everyone will understand who it is and where it is.

[Sascha]

Generally not a var-var-var, but a bar-bar. "In Roman" - Barbara.
It was the Russians who had already transferred Babili to Babylon, Byzantium to Byzantium, and Barbara to barbarians ....
Mumble is a related word.

[KaPToC]

Austrians in the early twentieth century were called Caesars.

[4ekist]

Everything related to history is terribly interesting. And what about the study of battles on Lake Peipsi, Kulikovo Field. I would like to know all this.

[Sascha]

Here on the site has already been discussed ...
About the Battle of Kulikovo, in my opinion - very sensible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzprgr6EBH8
Well, about the Battle of the Ice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nELIn91ST3Q

[Earnest]

And I have a more realistic assumption. At the only crossing in the district (gati, bridge), which gathered travelers like a bottleneck, for many years the local tribe robbed passing caravans, immigrants, and scouts. The dead were thrown into the river, so the cemetery accumulated. The proceeds made it possible to maintain professional warriors, attracted by profit and fame. And the methods of research conducted by scientists do not give an answer whether all these people died in one day or in a long period of time.

[saygon66]

- About this mess is even more interesting: it seems like it is 700 years older than the bones ... And what kind of robbery is this - have you left so much good?

[Corsair5912]

Modern historians follow a variant of history composed in Europe in the 17 century, which has nothing in common with reality and does not want to change anything even under the pressure of numerous archaeological finds.
The absolutely indisputable fact of resettlement to Europe in the 2-3 millennium BC is known. Indo-Europeans from the South Urals and Central Asia have mastered the production of bronze and are known for their arrowheads and other finds of their battle with the local population living in the Stone Age.
But the "scientists" do not want to admit this, and the authors of truthful publications are anathematized. Say, the navel of the earth is Europe, not Asia.

[Victor Wolz]

Why do not historians recognize the movement of Aryan tribes from the Urals to Europe? Did you know that already at the end of the 19th century? This is a long-known and proven fact, read at least Maria Gimbutas. The question is where and how they came from and how many waves there were. The old theory says that the first Indo-Aryans are proto-Hetts who mixed with the local Caucasoids took part of the local gods but left the Indo-European language. But they came from Iran through the Caucasus, respectively, those who walked along the steppes of New Russia and Moldova were somewhat different tribes, but also with the Indo-Aryan language.

[chunga-changa]

What a tin. Thank you, unexpected and interesting.

[ando_bor]

Significant time - 1200 BC, the end of the Bronze Age, the most powerful shock in the history of mankind, the entire global world perished, some civilizations were clean, some were reduced ten times in number, for example Egypt. By some parameters of globalization, the world of that level literally only reached a few centuries ago. The Bronze Age collapse was caused by powerful climate change.
In the Caucasus, dolmen culture died at this time, after nothing similar to dolmens in scale and complexity, nobody built there before our times.

[Spnsr]

Quote: ando_bor

In the Caucasus, dolmen culture died at this time, after nothing similar to dolmens in scale and complexity, nobody built there before our times.

what do you think! what happened before, the creation of a monolith or brick?
this means that the scale and complexity are across the Caucasus in the form of observation towers!

[ando_bor]

Where dolmens are - the West of the Caucasus, there are no towers, with rare exceptions, - there are no capital structures, and their ruins. Yes, and the tower is simpler than the dolmens, and quite recent, almost all gunshots.

[Spnsr]

Quote: ando_bor

Yes, and the tower is simpler than the structure,

??

[Warrior2015]

Hmm, apparently in this thread is a massive and free distribution of grass? What a darkness after all ...

Quote: KaPToC

The earliest works of the "scribblers" mentioned by you date back to the 18th century, there are no more ancient copies.

I will say briefly - you are mistaken. Because you do not know that the works of ancient authors are preserved in the original medieval manuscripts. I will say more - there are even several texts preserved from Late Antiquity. Nezhdanchik, huh?

Quote: KaPToC

Writing appeared in the 9-10 centuries of OUR era, no earlier documents exist in nature

I’ll just say - Japan Steel !! Comrade, you are generally aware that ORIGINAL ANCIENT HYPETIC TEXTS have been preserved on papyrus sheets, even dating back to the era of the Middle Kingdom! whatever one may say, but 3500 years ago! For example, from those closer to us, there are Bible fragments from the era of approximately Julius Caesar - Octavin - google "The Dead Sea Scrolls" and you will be happy.

Quote: venaya

And what do you want, 3500 years ago, the Russians left the territory near the White Sea for India, created a writing there, moreover, a syllabic-alphabetical-phonetic one, apparently they also wrote the Vedas there.

FOR THE FIRST TIME the word Rus appears in the 9-10th centuries. AD - and to the closest - is a transliteration of the Scandinavian "rosi" = "rowers, sailing in boats". The word "rossy" appears in the early medieval Byzantine texts based on the biblical ones. But 4000 years ago, there were no "Rus", there was a certain proto-people, conventionally called "Proto-Indo-Europeans", which split and migrated "into three cardinal points" from the Urals-Caspian region.

[Spnsr]

you are so interesting!

Quote: Warrior2015

the works of ancient authors are preserved in original medieval manuscripts.

so antique or still medieval?

Quote: Warrior2015

ORIGINAL ANCIENT EGYPTIAN TEXTS on papyrus sheets, even dating back to the Middle Kingdom, have been preserved! and whatever it is, but 3500 years ago! From closer to us, for example, there are fragments of the Bible of the era of about Julius Caesar - Octavin

Well, you give straight! I've been trying to read newspaper notes by granny 20 of the last century, it’s very, very difficult, crumbles, cannot be read ....
and you have papyrus 3500 years and norms !!!

Quote: Warrior2015

- and to the closest - it is a transliteration of the Scandinavian "rosi" = "rowers,

you are somehow more careful, for example, prove that there was Scandinavia or the Scandinavian state or language and was written before the 16th century, but in general the 17th century !? just do not use papyrus 3500 years ago, I gave you an example of papyrus of the 20th century, or do you want to say that papyrus is stored longer than a newspaper !?
in general, the GDP gave a clear definition of rowers in galleys
and yet, judging by the dynamics of the development of modern society, its timing, humanity is only 1,5 - 2 thousand years old, it’s better not to talk about decline and all that, decline is both the beginning of the 20th century associated with the revolution, and the middle associated with the war, and the end of the 20th century associated with the collapse of the USSR! this can be seen both in the west and in the east ... and there was no decline that would lead to the disappearance of someone! as we are told the disappearance of civilization ...
everything is simpler than scrolls 3500 years ago ...
it simply could not be that humanity lived and disappeared, and then the fragments begin all over again. There was a constant progressive development of mankind! and this is a completely different interpretation of history !!! ... and this is at least no people several thousand years older than others, and vice versa!

[andj61]

Quote: Warrior2015

Comrade, are you aware that the ORIGINAL ANCIENT EGYPTIAN TEXTS on papyrus sheets, even dating back to the Middle Kingdom, have been preserved! and whatever it is, but 3500 years ago!

This kind of dating works against itself .. The shelf life of paper is 150-200 years, with special. conditions and constant humidity - up to 500-600, the shelf life of parchment with proper care - 1000-1200 years. The shelf life of papyrus is in real life for several years. After all, it's just a reed, deployed in a plane and bonded to each other. And upon discovery, the papyrus scattered immediately after opening the sealed clay vessels where this papyrus was stored. After such cases, they tried to process it with a preservative first - without opening the vessel itself, and only after that try to make out what is written there. In general, the dating of Egyptian finds is very approximate - they indicated in the 19th century that it was 3500 years ago (this is about the Middle Kingdom) - which means that it must be considered so, and not otherwise. All who tried to argue or justify something were subjected to obstruction.

[corsar26]

Not so much an interesting article as comments))) about the gunpowder, I met somewhere (retelling in my own words) that: in the east, they invented something and stopped there, while in the west everyone will adapt for the killing of their own kind.

[colonel manuch]

In general, little has been intelligibly written about the Bronze Age, serious studies have not been conducted enough, and of course we don’t know much about civilization, there are too few sources, and there are fewer written ones, once I found out fishing from a boat in Manych, The burial clearly visible in the coastal clay cliff, the remains of a person to their full height, measured with a fishing rod height, about 2 meters 15 centimeters, the bones of the skeleton actually decayed, there were separate fragments of the hip structure and spine, told local historians where and how. Next year nothing arrived I didn’t find it. It’s a pity that I didn’t take a picture. I wonder how many remains were in the ground. I did not find any metal objects.

[ilyinval61]

And what exactly at these times (3200 years ago) happened that changed the established relations in the region. The answer is simple, someone in Hittite State invented the receipt of iron. It was either accidentally invented, although it is unlikely because the degree of melting of iron is higher than that of bronze, although the Hittites had their own research institute of metallurgy, but nevertheless the fact remains. But then the secret by unknown ways (possibly stolen) turned out to be among the neighbors of the Mycenaean state. Iron deposits are not uncommonly more common, and although the first samples were inferior to bronze in terms of their performance characteristics, alloying additives were already known by that time, thus obtaining mass, cheap and not much inferior (if not superior) weapons in properties was only a matter of time. The method of iron smelting, discovered by the Hittites, spread to all countries of Asia, later to all of Europe. And from the Greek Mycenaean state went and went. The article mentions that studies showed that they were aliens with south. By dating, this battle was just at these times. Perhaps the winners possessed iron weapons. If the burial places of these same winners are found in this area, something will become clear.

[ando_bor]

Iron was known to many cultures in the Bronze Age, but due to imperfect technologies it was either worse or more expensive than bronze, and in the presence of bronze it did not become widespread. And when, as a result of the collapse of the Bronze Age - the events described date back to this period, some territories, already a part of the decline itself after a few centuries, were left without bronze or its components - the global world - trade relations were destroyed, they began to experiment with iron that was widespread in nature , and pretty quickly developed technology and began to receive material better and cheaper than bronze. That is, they did not switch to iron from a good life, but it seemed in many ways better.

[gameover_65]

Bronze Age, Bronze Age! But Nitsche, that bronze is an alloy of tin and copper? if it is clear with copper, then tin in the Bronze Age only became known and there can be no question of any level of production, on a par with copper!

[Fat]

Thanks! Great Respect for Your Works, And, Most importantly, Your "Point of View". Great article ....

[Warrior2015]

Well, history and archeology are interesting sciences!

Quote: SpnSr

so antique or still medieval?

Here, some comrades said that there were no texts at all before the 18 century. I showed what is. Moreover, there are original manuscripts of the Late Antiquity period. The texts of Assyria (1 thousand BC), Babylonia (2 thousand BC), Egypt (also 2 and 1 thousand BC) are also found.

Quote: SpnSr

I've been trying to read newspaper notes by granny 20 of the last century, it’s very, very difficult, crumbles, cannot be read ....
and you have papyrus 3500 years and norms !!!

Well, in general, do not compare the climate, as well as storage is often in sealed tombs, which have become a kind of "time capsules". Well, ask what significant scientists are engaged in reading and deciphering ancient documents.

Quote: SpnSr

you are somehow more careful, for example, prove that there was Scandinavia or the Scandinavian state or language and was written before the 16 century, but in general the 17 century !?

Oh, hold me seven, three won't hold me! I won’t even prove anything to the ignoramuses! Comrade, did you even hear anything about runic texts, for example? (I do not say read, although there are translations) Why is there such a thing called Edda ...

Quote: gameover_65

then tin in the Bronze Age only became known and there can be no talk of any level of mining, on par with copper!

Yes, the Spanish and most importantly British tin deposits FROM THE BRONZE CENTURY DEVELOPED up to the 20 century supplied them half of Europe!

Quote: corsar26

about the gunpowder, I met somewhere (retelling in my own words) that: in the east, they invented something and stopped at that, while in the west they will adapt everything for the killing

Nooo, this is nooooo !! Who is it that powders the brains of people? Comrade, you were clearly deceived! Gunpowder weapons were used in the same Far East and Central Asia in the 11-13th centuries. ("powder bombs" thrown from trebuchets). But they switched to cannons clearly in Europe (or rather in Moorish Spain) in the 14th century - and off they go ...

By the way, a miniature showing the attempt of the invasion of Khubilai’s army in Japan - from the ORIGINAL Japanese manuscript of the 13 century, well preserved by the way - this is the one who believes that there are no manuscripts before the 18 century. It just shows the explosion of such a powder bomb.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Warrior2015

Gunpowder weapons were used in the same Far East and Central Asia in the 11-13th centuries. ("powder bombs" thrown from trebuchets). But they switched to guns obviously in Europe (or rather in Moorish Spain) in the 14th century - and off we go ...

you yourself have made progress from 2-3 centuries BC to our era !!!

Quote: Warrior2015

By the way, a miniature showing the attempt of the invasion of Khubilai’s army in Japan - from the ORIGINAL Japanese manuscript of the 13 century, well preserved by the way - this is the one who believes that there are no manuscripts before the 18 century. It just shows the explosion of such a powder bomb.

who told you that this miniature is from the 13th century and not from the 18-19th century !? just the period of creating nationalities, writing stories for them! by the way, after the collapse of the "empire", which lasted from the beginning to the end of the 16th century, when separate regions were formed mentally separating themselves from a single state, and already at 17, the entire period of describing stories began! this is the emergence of chenoza and persia and the Ottoman Empire !!! there could be more! but they remained and entered the Russian Empire, and the above listed first separated themselves, and then not small pieces of territory were separated from them, for example, the Ottoman Empire, this is Bulgaria, Greece and almost all of southern Europe, for the example of Persia - Iraq and Iran at least, India - Pakistan! this is a story, and this is what you present! does not inspire confidence, and primarily because everything began to form in the 16th century and continues to this day !!!

The picture is interesting!

[Cartalon]

And here the Fomenkovtsy, there was nothing at all built the Coliseum and immediately dismantled it to St. Paul’s Cathedral, invented the countries of their kings and minted coins for them, invented Homer and Thucydides and other Greeks and wrote whole volumes for them. Well, my beloved Colon of Troyan was wiped off sweeping tracks.

[Warrior2015]

Comrade, first of all, we didn’t drink to the Brudershaft, so contact us or drop off!

Secondly, first investigate the materials about which I told you, then we continue the dialogue, there is no particular desire to communicate with ignoramuses.

About the original manuscript of the 13 century, you go and ask the Japanese - and tell them directly in your eyes: you didn’t have anything of this! (But I will give advice - just hold your head with your hands - otherwise it tends to roll when the katana is cut off!)

[Spnsr]

Quote: Warrior2015

About the original manuscript of the 13th century, you go and ask the Japanese - and tell them directly in your eyes: you didn’t have anything of this! (But I will give advice - just hold your head with your hands - otherwise it tends to roll when the katana is cut off!) Laughing

it’s not clear to anyone, but judging by what it is about me!

Quote: Warrior2015

(But I will give advice - just hold your head with your hands - otherwise it tends to roll when the katana is cut off!) Laughing

you are not restrained and overestimate your "friends" or underestimate your fellow citizens!

Quote: Warrior2015

Comrade, first of all, we didn’t drink at the Brudershaft, so contact us or drop off! angry

it’s definitely not for me, although it may hurt you with a small letter well, like this

Quote: Warrior2015

they didn’t drink at broodershaft

Quote: Warrior2015

Secondly, first investigate the materials about which I told you, then we continue the dialogue, there is no particular desire to communicate with ignoramuses. request

Do you think that the tales of the Viennese forest are material? how would you explain in Russian, no one says that this was not, but the dates are very embarrassing! especially writing texts! maybe there was something, maybe the Separs and drove, maybe they were organized, but !!! the whole story was written in the 18th century, then nationalities were invented, if you think not, then carefully read the story, otherwise

Quote: Warrior2015

there is no particular desire to communicate with ignoramuses. request

very carefully! start with the population of Russia, then the wars of the 16th-19th centuries, in the end modernity, and maybe you yourself will understand that in addition to the katana, the samurai also has kusungobu or eryoidoshi, or tanto, or metazashi! what a variety of names, almost like the whole story! to wash away the shame of their occupied position, which was under the British, who wrote them the story, and now America, which also rewrites the history of Hiroshima to them, to wash away its cruelty !!! and they are glad, even if they literally know how it was, the whole generation has not yet died out, but they can’t tell the truth, they can only yap at Russia like Zee Kuril when their master allows them!

[Warrior2015]

Uh, yes, in this thread I watch the Fomenkoids roam! Straight fear and hellish horror!

Quote: SpnSr

back in the 16 century, it was right to call the population of Eurasia TATARAVIA!

Here the Tatars were delighted! But there is a tiny little problem - THE POPULATION WASN’T SO NAMEED, and indeed all of Eurasia! DO NOT NAME! Here's a twist, right?

Quote: Nexus 6

In the land of Brandenburg, still half of the toponyms of the Slavic root. This is understandable even to an amateur.

And what does this prove apart from the conquest and assimilation of the survivors? here in central and Volga Russia, most of the place names are Finno-Ugric - and so what?

Quote: SpnSr

but!!! the whole story is written in the 18 century

But Herodotus then turns out to be ... well! I didn’t know damn 2500 years ago that the whole story would be written much later! for whom I tried, here ... And that his "Father of History" was nicknamed then?!?

Quote: SpnSr

in addition to the katana, the samurai also has kusungobu or yoroyoshi, or tanto, or metazashi!

Laughing for a long time! With this phrase you have proved once again that you are ignorant! and you don’t understand even in the classification of Japanese weapons! And still trying to correct the world history! Well, what will I do if you are ignorant?

Quote: Sascha

I was once in Estonia, on the island of Saaremaa. There are several very large meteorite craters.

I realized the true story of this battle is that the battle never happened! they were transmitted by a meteorite !!!!!!!! And Rome, then, the main thing of Rome, it wasn’t !!!! (And the men don’t even know!)

[Spnsr]

Listen, you are really a child in your impulsiveness!

Quote: Warrior2015

Fomenkoids roamed

as it is not beautiful from a sound husband!

Quote: Warrior2015

DO NOT NAME SO POPULATION and even all of Eurasia! DO NOT NAME! Here's a twist then, huh?

did you say that? Do you need to take a word? then there is no population 1/6 of the land which is called RUSSIANS

Quote: Warrior2015

And what does this prove apart from the conquest and assimilation of the survivors? here in central and Volga Russia, most of the place names are Finno-Ugric - and so what?

When did you find out that the Finno-Ugric? at the end of the 18 - 19 centuries, when they were given a name and a part of toponyms was separated, calling Finno-Ugric
you’re going to the historian who sat on the radio program of Yevgeny Satanovsky telling how they were excavating in the northern Black Sea region and at the mouth of the Don! says that they found more from the Vikings than the type in their habitat, such as Scandinavia !!!
I don’t want to insult you, but your brain works the other way around!

Quote: Warrior2015

Quote: SpnSr
in addition to the katana, the samurai also has kusungobu or yoroyoshi, or tanto, or metazashi!

Laughing for a long time! With this phrase you have proved once again that you are ignorant! and you don’t understand even in the classification of Japanese weapons! And still trying to correct the world history! fool Well, what will I do if you are an ignoramus? crying request

I didn’t even think about correcting the story! and about the iron things that they rip up their stomach, I don’t need to know the subtleties of their folklore! also say that this folklore goes back several billion years, such as papyrus was found and that everyone should know how and with what they perform this folklore, although it really became known to us no earlier than the 18th century, and then from the British . oh well it's not worth it!

[Warrior2015]

Quote: SpnSr

When did you find out that the Finno-Ugric? at the end of the 18 - 19 centuries, when they were given a name and a part of toponyms was separated, calling Finno-Ugric

Comrade, because the Finno-Ugric languages ​​are also spoken by the now sickly number of peoples of our Russia, and in their basis such terms as Moscow, Oka, etc. are Finno-Ugric.

Or do you think that the toponym "Moscow" originated in the 18th century? Then you do not need to sit on the VO website, but urgently go to the medical department of the corresponding profile for further examination.

Quote: SpnSr

you’re going to the historian who sat on the radio program of Yevgeny Satanovsky telling how they were excavating in the northern Black Sea region and at the mouth of the Don! says that they found more from the Vikings than the type in their habitat, such as Scandinavia !!!

I did not hear such a transfer, but the normal people were sitting there, at least obviously not using it! Those. indeed one of the variants of the Scandinavian intermediate ancestral homeland is the Don region, where they came from somewhere in the Caspian region about 2000 years ago. The comrade was unconcerned!

Quote: SpnSr

and about the iron things that they rip up their stomach, I don’t need to know the subtleties of their folklore!

But then how are you going to correct the Japanese? Are you going to correct the history of one of the most ancient peoples on the planet with a preserved written history without knowing the elementary foundations of their culture?

[Spnsr]

Quote: Warrior2015

to go under examination for medical examination of the appropriate profile. request

Quote: Warrior2015

obviously not taken!

of you and it pours help ... insults, as I understand it, these are the very arguments that cover all doubters, “hystoryk ustynyki”! but this is just a factor that does not give me pluses, but plays against you and others like you !!!

Quote: Warrior2015

Comrade, because the Finno-Ugric languages ​​are also spoken by the now sickly number of peoples of our Russia, and in their basis such terms as Moscow, Oka, etc. are Finno-Ugric.

Or do you think that the toponym "Moscow" originated in the 18th century? Then you do not need to sit on the VO website, but urgently go to the medical department of the corresponding profile for further examination. request

you only at least answer when it became known that this

Quote: Warrior2015

are Finno-Ugric.

I have no doubt that they spoke, and that the language was similar, but they only got attached to the Finn-Ugrians in the late 18th and early 19th centuries! and this is a completely different structure of perception of the story you are treating!
and about

Quote: Warrior2015

I did not hear such a transfer, but the normal people were sitting there, at least obviously not using it! bully i.e. indeed one of the variants of the Scandinavian intermediate ancestral homeland is the Don region, where they came from somewhere in the Caspian region about 2000 years ago. The comrade was unconcerned!

I don’t understand, no, this is not an insult, but an analogy, now it’s a sabaka wagging its tail, or a sabaka’s tail, or it’s a sabaka wagging its tail so much that now it started wagging a sabaka !? do not you think that this is just one of the assumptions put forward by Fomenko and Nosovsky?
but that historian spoke of the Viking homeland of Scandinavia.
but for me they became the Vikings in the 18th century, when the description of this interpretation of history began, and giving it a direction of movement, by the way, the opposite of that which you expressed, designating it as one of the theories!

Quote: Warrior2015

But then how are you going to correct the Japanese? Are you going to correct the history of one of the most ancient peoples on the planet with a preserved written history without knowing the basic principles of their culture? request

I didn’t even think about correcting anyone, but I ask you to notice, I recognize the culture of the production of their equipment, the culture of some other moments of their life, but fire me to know their folklore, I don’t impose on them “vodkubalaykumatreshkushapkuushankubabuokokoshnik”, so it’s their right to rip open their bellies! trying to convince everyone of the truth of life, through a similar black folklore. believe me, if this is not folklore, but life, as you want to convince me, then the population of Japan should have disappeared 70 years ago, and for some reason now, assenting to the American version of history, in which, according to their interpretation of the USSR, they bombed Hiroshima, they do not rip themselves bellies! if this is not folklore, then you must be principled or consistent!

[Warrior2015]

Quote: SpnSr

do not you think that this is just one of the assumptions put forward by Fomenko and Nosovsky?

Actually, this theory has long been put forward and substantiated, after conducting archaeological excavations, by someone Tour Heyerdahl. Do not know by chance such a friend? And you are all Fomenko, Nosovsky ... They are banal copywriters

Quote: SpnSr

I have no doubt that they spoke, and that the language was similar, but the link to the Finn-Ugrians was given only at the end of the 18 and the beginning of the 19 centuries!

Well, who gave such a binding? who? The ancient Slavs knew Finno-Ugric tribes from time immemorial, from the moment of migration, first to the Dnieper basin, and then to the Volga-Oka interfluve.

Quote: SpnSr

and for some reason now, assenting to the American version of history, in which, according to their interpretation, the USSR bombed Hiroshima,

Show me at least ONE American (I will say more broadly - generally any Anglo-Saxon, from all the countries of Commonwells) or Japanese scientific source, where it would be said that it was SOVIET aviation dropped atomic bombs on Japanese cities.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Warrior2015

Actually, this theory has long been put forward and substantiated, after conducting archaeological excavations, by someone Tour Heyerdahl. lol Do not know by chance such a friend? And you are all Fomenko, Nosovsky ... They are banal copywriters request

actually, Tour Heyerdahl was much later than the theory that Fomenko and Nosovsky was developing between cases now, and maybe he caught it in the same place as these comrades! and I think it’s not for you to reproach them for copywriting, simply because you use memorized texts, they proved mathematical theories using mathematical methods, but from that it is the meaning that they sound!

Quote: Warrior2015

Well, who gave such a binding? who? belay The ancient Slavs knew Finno-Ugric tribes from time immemorial, from the moment of migration, first to the Dnieper basin, and then to the Volga-Oka interfluve.

Who? you carefully read when they describe the population of the Russian “Empire” for the first time, when they give a description to the rest of the surrounding countries .... throw away the extra noise in the form of links to links that also link to links, you yourself will see 1794 and later ....
and yet, if we conditionally measure the beginning of the use of technology from its discovery on average 50 years (+/-), it roughly turns out that people on the planet are 1500-2000 years old
but where did you get this interpretation

Quote: Warrior2015

The ancient Slavs knew Finno-Ugric tribes from time immemorial, from the moment of migration, first to the Dnieper basin, and then to the Volga-Oka interfluve.

?
but this

Quote: Warrior2015

Show me at least ONE American (I will say more broadly - generally any Anglo-Saxon, from all the countries of Commonwells) or Japanese scientific source, where it would be said that it was SOVIET aviation dropped atomic bombs on Japanese cities.

the same as the Americans on one tank in the face of delirium pit won the Second World War! from me, no matter what is familiar to me, tell me, isn’t it? although it may be shy for now, the next generation of them will clearly tell you about this if you communicate with them ...

[psiho117]

This skull, open in the Tollens Valley, shows clear evidence of injury from a blunt object, possibly from a club.

In my opinion, this is a clear hit from a sling shell

[Warrior2015]

Quote: SpnSr

the same as the Americans on one tank in the face of delirium pit won the Second World War!

I just suggested that you confirm at least one authoritative source to confirm your own words. You couldn’t. Moreover, with your further words you have only proved that you are incompetent and deify Fomenko too much with Nosovsky. Alas.

Quote: SpnSr

Actually, Tour Heyerdahl was much later than the theory that Fomenko and Nosovsky was developing between cases,

You do not seem to know anything about such a great man, an outstanding traveler, a REAL scientist like Thor Heyerdahl. Therefore, I am not interested in a dialogue with you; you are not capable of an adequate analysis of objective factors.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Warrior2015

Moreover, with your further words you have only proved that you are incompetent and deify Fomenko too much with Nosovsky. Alas. crying

you use a similar word turnover yourself without catching the inconsistency of your thoughts!
for starters, the silence of the event committed by America, it’s already a fact that real events are relegated to the background, and the type of territory “occupied” by Russia is being brought to the surface, this time! two, Japan and Russia do not have a peace treaty; three, is it (here they probably should have made themselves hara-kiri, proceeding from the "customs" of folklore), being occupied territory and building equal relations is it big? - all these messages, to some, third parties, give a chance to voice the interpretation that is beneficial, and first of all so that folklore does not come, i.e. these are the main messages to justify the developing relations between Russia - Japan, Russia - the United States!
do not make yourself a connoisseur of Japan, if you do not see and hear this, this does not mean that it is not, or the Japanese custom is in front of you: “good, good,” and they’ll sharpen a katana behind your back!

Quote: Warrior2015

Quote: SpnSr
the same as the Americans on one tank in the face of delirium pit won the Second World War!

I just suggested that you confirm at least one authoritative source to confirm your own words. You couldn’t. Moreover, in your further words, you have only proved that you are incompetent and too deify Fomenko with Nosovsky. Alas... crying

- I do not see the logic here! competence and deification !?
at the expense of competence regarding “folklore”, it’s not up to you to judge me about competence ... regarding folklore-Japan, it is the same stash as the Turkic issue for the USSR and Ukraine for Russia, so much depends on how far prepared Russian opponents come in ...
to deification, if my perception of history coincides with the vision of others, then this is deification, then to call this

Quote: Warrior2015

You do not seem to know anything about such a great man, an outstanding traveler, a REAL scientist like Thor Heyerdahl. Therefore, I am not interested in a dialogue with you; you are not capable of an adequate analysis of objective factors. negative

- do you think I should treat him the same way? you are illogical!
firstly, this theory was before him!
secondly, if you cite as an example the dates that you tied to the Tour, then they go against the "traditional" history
and thirdly, your ossification of consciousness, based on the memorized tales of the "Vienna Forest", closes your perception of objective facts that lie on the surface, especially since you cite examples of not only historians of the "traditionalists".
yes, in all the collateral noise that the “traditionalists” created, it is difficult to build a logical chain, but the point of view expressed by me, in my perception, does not at all diverge from the events of the present, the closest, albeit blurred by the parties concerned, and from this relative, but still of the objective past, and this, for reasons of logic, makes the “traditional” history irrelevant, and pushes the hidden history before the 17th century to be perceived precisely through the prism of the present and relatively objective past, although they are also voiced from the point of view and for the benefit of interested parties! ...

[Ferdinant]

Very interesting.

[Vvol]

“Most believed that ancient society was peaceful and that men of the Bronze Age were engaged in trade, etc.”,

- !!! Oh really?!

[polpol]

In all likelihood, the ancestors of the West European R1b (referring to the south of Western Europe, and this is France, the Iberian Peninsula, the north of the Apennine Peninsula) and the ancestors of the Slavs R1a1, I1, I2a, I2c (referring to Poland and Scandinavia) converged here.
Analysis for haplogroups not carried out.

The ancestors of Western Europeans, about 5000 years ago, came from the coast of North Africa to West Europe, first to the Iberian Peninsula, and then to the territory of modern France from the North of the Apennine Peninsula.
They began to annihilate the local people who lived here with the gene codes I1, I2a, I2c and small R1a1, who began to appear in Western Europe from the Central Russian Plain.
And they occupied R1a1 at that time in Europe, the territory east of the line
• former border of the GDR-FRG in the north
• the former border of Czechoslovakia and the border of Austria in the center
• former border of Yugoslavia in the south.
From Western Europe, the local (I1, I2a, I2c), in fear of their lives and who escaped the persecution of R1b, fled for the indicated line under the protection of R1a1, were assimilated, i.e. adopted the language, customs, culture, and later from this community (R1a1 + I2a, I2c, and then joined them after 1500-1000 years N1c1-N1a1) appeared Slavs.
About 500 years after the appearance of erbins - R1b, there are no traces left in the burials west of the indicated line in Western Europe from traces of the R1a1-I1, I2a, I2c culture.
Erbins R1b either all R1a1-I1, I2a, I2c were destroyed, or they left (fled).
Erbins got I1, I2a, I2c and on about. Great Britain and on about. Ireland. The descendants of I1, I2a, I2c have survived to the present time about. Great Britain, but only in the mountain clans of Scotland.
On about. Ireland the erbins of the carriers of the haplogroup I1, I2a, I2c knocked out completely, although the current Irish, being the descendants of the carriers of the haplogroup R1b, nevertheless perceived the culture of their predecessors (I1, I2a, I2c) to some extent and for this reason they are opponents of the descendants of the same R1b on about. United Kingdom. It is likely that women and women who remained from people with haplogroups I1, I2a, I2c knocked out by evil aliens passed this culture and customs to Erbins, because, most likely, about. Ireland warriors came alone, without their women.
The population in Western Europe west of this line was completely renewed by the time 4500 years ago.
This period in archeology is called the "EUROPEAN GENOCIDE".

It can be assumed that the battle at the Tollens River is evidence of this genocide.
What do haplogroup studies show?

Therefore, the confrontation between the Western Europeans and the Slavs began from that time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjgBF4vBgA0&t=246s
WE LOSE A WAR THAN 5000 YEARS ?! Klyosov in Politkafe 26