Military Review

A unique place of battle in Russia!

83
Probably, many people know that the lands of Russia in the past were the scene of fierce battles. This is a battle on Lake Peipsi or Lake Pijpus, where in 1242, the soldiers of Prince Alexander defeated the Teutonic knights, and Kulikovo Field, where in 1380, the Russian soldiers repelled the invasion of Khan Mamai, and many, many other places. But what remains to us in the places of these battles? Nothing!!! On the lake in general, archaeologists have found nothing. On the field, Kulikov found so little that many generally doubt whether this battle was there. But there is one place in Russia, about which so far few know, even in our country, and even more so abroad abroad. But here there are archaeological finds that give an idea of ​​what a tough battle broke out on this piece of land so much that they literally wallow under their feet. There is still visible a huge ditch, preserved trees, surrounding the ancient settlement, and even ... charred grain in the cellars of ancient houses! This place is called Zolotarevskoe Gorodishche!



Here you can not act thoughtlessly ...

Past the church and to the right ...
Suppose that you came to the provincial city of Penza, which is known to have been founded in 1663 by the decree of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich Tikhayshy, and it is connected with history of the Russian state as a real “God-saved city” can be connected with it, even if not by the standards of our history, and not very old. There are a lot of interesting things in the city, as, of course, in many cities of our country, however, if you decide to leave its borders and leave the city, then you will be able to see a truly unique place, namely, the Zolotarev settlement, that is, not the settlement itself. , of course, but what's left of him today.

To get there, it’s enough to take the route “gazelle” from the market and don’t have to worry about anything, and if you go by car, you must first follow the road leading to the village of Akhuny, and, passing the beautiful wooden church, turn off right. Well, and there all go and go, without turning anywhere, about 30 km. Then the arrow will tell you that you have reached the right place, but you do not need to enter the Zolotarevka itself. Before reaching 200 meters, you should turn left onto a forest road and drive about three kilometers. There, too, you will see a signpost that you have reached the Zolotarevskoe Gorodishche reserve, so finding this place is not difficult. In addition, the inhabitants of this village - if you still pass the desired turn and get into Zolotarevka itself - will always be happy to show you the way. A shield with the inscription that in front of you Zolotarev settlement, will show you where to go next, after which the most interesting begins. First you will have to go down to the very bottom of a deep ravine overgrown with forests, which, however, leads to some kind of staircase with railings. After descending into the ravine - but in fact it is not a ravine at all, but a ditch surrounding the settlement! - you will follow the ascent along the path upward, and there you will get inside the settlement itself, but not from the “front”, but from its “back door”. It was here, on a sharp cape, which formed two ravines, in ancient times, undoubtedly, was the entrance to it. But they used it, most likely, to go for water, either to wash the laundry here, or there was something similar to the “boat station” or the wharf of its inhabitants, since at that time both of these ravines were filled to the very edges.


The passage tower of the main gate. Reconstruction.

However, none of these were not ravines, but wide and deep ditches. And the small rampart that comes from the entrance to the right and left along the edge of these ravines is nothing else than the rampart that once stood here, and there was a wall with towers on it, only this elevation remained from time to time. pits that are visible here, there, there are traces of archaeological excavations! On the territory of the settlement you will be led by a “road” made of durable wooden blocks and you just have to rejoice over those who came to it and who built it here. In several places, “ancient log houses” are visible, which make it possible to imagine the true size of the houses at that time, and to make a logical conclusion - that they were very small, and that our ancestors, who lived in such ancient settlements, could not but suffer from distress. Having walked all the territory of the settlement, you will eventually come to its main shaft, which is across the cape from one moat to another. It is impossible not to notice that this shaft really ... looks like a shaft! It is known that centuries after a century any mound is lowered, as rain and wind do it all the time, and, anyway, this shaft is much higher than the one that the settlement was surrounded by the moat around it! It has an opening for the gate, then again a deep ditch, and behind it begins a forest, and interesting, besides ... there are small pits in front of it, there is nothing there. These pits are also very small, and these were once “wolf pits” dug up here, which were much larger and also had a sharp stake on the bottom to finish off anyone whoever went there! Just before they were much more.


Layout gate.

What kind of people lived here?
When you are standing here in the middle of the forest, listening to the trees rustle around you, some strange feeling involuntarily visits you. After all, once here everything was completely different: there were fields in which the inhabitants of the settlement were growing rye and barley (they found charred grain in the pits at the place of burnt huts!) And then there were meadows where sheep and cows grazed. People sat on the benches near their small and very cramped huts and gossiped, made simple tools, sewed clothes, and then loved them on heated stoves. Men alternately carried the watch on the towers and ... from all this, only the pits remained, and the earth walls covered with grass!


This is how one of the houses of the Zolotaryov settlement could look like.

We more or less know who lived in this settlement. Back in the 60 of the twentieth century, archaeologists found traces of a fortress burnt by the Mongols. But the real scale of the tragedy that took place here in the Suruvian steppes somewhere around the 1236 year became clear only today, when there were a lot of finds and they were able to tell a lot to the historians. And as always it happens, there was a person who learned about this mound, if not all, then very much. This is a doctor of historical sciences, professor Gennady Nikolaevich Belorybkin, who has been digging it together with many students of historianism at Penza State University for many seasons.


During the excavations, a lot of armament details were found: these are arrowheads, sabers and military decorations, and horse harness details.

They also found many human skeletons: bones with arrowheads sticking out of them, skulls with chopped wounds. They even found the remains of a warrior with a mace in his hand. So everything indicates that the Zolotarev settlement is a place of battle, and not a burial place at all, that this is a huge battlefield, where only arrowheads have found more than a thousand! “In order for you to understand the scale of the battle more clearly,” says Gennady Belorybkin, “I will give you an example. At the beginning of the 13th century, this territory was part of Volga-Kama Bulgaria. So, throughout the Volga Bulgaria, there may be some hundreds of tips found over the long years of archaeological research. And here in one place there are more than a thousand of them! At the scene of the massacre, we also discovered a huge number of sabers fragments - the main weapons that time. Such a number of details of a saber weapon, even in the whole of Ancient Russia, probably will not be typed. ”


A variety of arrowheads. As you can see, here are both armor-piercing arrows, and wide-blade tips for shooting at horses and unarmed opponents.

It is well known that Batyi first defeated the Volga Bulgaria, and only then moved to Russia and all autumn before that he was encamped between Ryazan and the Volga. In the annals it is mentioned that this camp was located on the Nozle River or near the town of Onuz. But not far from Zolotarevka there is the so-called Neklyudovka settlement, and it is located just on the Ouse River. Oza and Onuza are very close in sound, and it can be assumed that here Batu stood with his army. On the settlement of Neklyudovo, too, many things belonged to the Mongols, who sacked nearby villages from here. The Persian scholar and encyclopaedist Rashid ad-Din wrote that at that time Batu Khan was waging a war with the Moksha and Burtass tribes. But Moksha, Burtases, and Bulgars just lived in the area. That is why, according to Professor Belorybkin, the version that the battle in the area of ​​Zolotarev settlement occurred in 1237 is very plausible. You can also assume that it happened in the late autumn, and this is what it proves. After all, metal armor, and iron weapons, and iron arrowheads were a very great value, and after the battle they were always collected by the winners. But in this case, all this and in the field, and among the charred debris remains. What is the reason for such extravagance?


Model of ancient settlement. View from the "nose" - where in the settlement you can climb from the side of the ravine.

Probably, after the battle began a heavy snowfall, and the snow brought the place of the battle and what was left of the destroyed settlement. And what if the snow was wet, but then a frost hit at night and bound all over with an icy crust. Therefore, the winners left it all here and moved on. Then, the following year, the land was densely overgrown with weeds, a young forest growth appeared, the wind caused dust and fallen leaves, and those who came here years later did not find anything except the pitiful remnants of trees and deep ravines. However, local villagers here dug and even found hryvnias made of silver and gold jewelery, although they were not at all interested in the “rusty pieces of iron” and they threw them away!


Model of ancient settlement. View from the floor side. Three rings of walls and trapping pits before strengthening are clearly visible.

So for today's archaeologists, this ancient settlement near Penza is a “real paradise”, while all other places of the great battles of our Middle Ages are just ... “waterless desert”!

Russian Pompeii ...
And there are really a lot of finds here, and they lay very close to the surface of the earth. Professor Belorybkin here exaggerated nothing. As soon as they began to dig on the settlement regularly, “black archeologists” began to visit there, and somehow I even ran into a friend on a settlement. There are two masked men with a metal detector ... Then we asked them to show what they found. In two hours - several arrowheads, two crossings from sabers, hryvnia, slashed diagonally ... And these are only one such “group” in two hours! But the students also dug! For example, they found a golden mask (albeit a very small one!), Which has long been a symbol of the Zolotarev settlement, among our Russian and foreign historians. This pad depicts a human beast with a "tree" or horns on his head. Most likely, it was a symbol of power or an amulet, because the lion is the “king of beasts”, and it has long been.


The famous golden mask of "horned man".

For me, however, the most amazing are the three tips for arrows, which have never met ANYWHERE! The first tip is quite large and coarse in appearance. For some reason, its surface is covered with an oblique notch, similar to the notch in old files, but not typical for arrows, and there are still obvious signs of gilding on it. Why is this? What was this significant, perhaps ritual arrowhead? Or a badge of distinction? But there are no analogues, therefore it is impossible to say anything!


Mongolo-Tatar tips for arrows of different types.

The second tip, on the contrary, is small, forged from iron with a petiole, but a tiny whistle with a pea-sized and with two holes is made on it. And forged something with a tip at the same time! And how was it done? Ordinary whistles were made of bone or baked clay. They were worn on the shaft of the arrow, and in flight they whipped disgustingly. But how to forge a hollow ball along with the stem is not clear until now. To cast it out of bronze labor would not have made, but how to forge? Put inside a “pea” made of clay? So after all, when forging it will surely break it! Copper and bronze are metals too soft to be shackled with a red-hot iron, and it was impossible to cast such a tip, because the temperature needed to produce cast iron was not able to get, and if anyone could, sense to start a complicated process to cast a tiny tip for an arrow? Such tips are also not found anywhere else, and therefore the technology of their manufacture was completely unique.


Plan of the fortress in the reserve.

For some reason, the third tip is cut to half, and the resulting tips are somehow divorced in both directions at right angles. To kill with such a tip is impossible! And to hunt with him is stupid, but for some reason did he do it? And at the Zolotarev site of the ancient city, Professor Belorybkin and his students found a lot of strange iron clamps. It looks like a plate with curved and twisted ends, in which the rings are inserted. One would think that this is a decoration. But then they found a collar made of ... a knife. So this is clearly a household item. And then, probably, every child knew what it was for. But neither our specialists, nor the boundary ones can understand what it is and why, although the object looks very simple!


Russian warrior - Zolotarevka defender.

All this can be seen in the museum exposition in the village Zolotarevka. Well, then, a little further away from the site itself, which will be left intact, there is an idea to build the exact same copy of this entire ancient settlement and turn it into a popular tourist complex. His project is ready and, albeit slowly, but gradually being implemented. Well, what is the significance of the Zolotarev battle for history, Rossiyskaya Gazeta wrote in the 2004 year when it reported that “Penza archeologist Professor Gennady Belorybkin found Russia their Pompeii” and this is so with all the success of this phrase!


Such a shooter was allegedly used in the assault of the city. It looks spectacular, but how it comes down ... Exposition of the Penza Museum of Local Lore.
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  1. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 22 March 2016 07: 11
    +16
    A completely unfamiliar page in Our History !!!!! Thank you very much to the author!
    1. Vend
      Vend 22 March 2016 09: 51
      +5
      Quote: Volga Cossack
      A completely unfamiliar page in Our History !!!!! Thank you very much to the author!

      There are many such pages. near Moscow there are Rostislavsky ramparts. There used to be a city, but it died. To author +
      1. PKK
        PKK 22 March 2016 14: 18
        -1
        Burnt by the army of Batu. The remains of historians who have blinders in their eyes believe in the horde. The reliability of the fortress explains that it is located on the island, large cities all started on the islands, in those days all movements were along the rivers. And here is the Horde moving along it’s a lie to swamps and through impenetrable forests.
        1. sergo42
          sergo42 27 March 2016 11: 22
          +1
          Another alternative. And there were no hordes, and no Mongols, and the Tatars came to us with gingerbread cookies!
          1. Idiot
            Idiot April 2 2016 11: 43
            +1
            Nosovsky and Fomenko presented their HYPOTHESIS, substantiated it, carried out a titanic quarter-century work: research and mathematical analysis of preserved historical documents in the fields of literature, astronomy, archeology and religion. Prominent scientists, they are at least convincing in their conclusions and were not afraid to challenge orthodox historical science, which has long been a prostitute — even the events of the Second World War and the USSR are misinterpreted. What to say about the affairs of bygone days? Sergo42 probably believes that the Egyptian pyramids were built of hundred-ton slabs, the Rurikovichs came from Scadinavia to rule the Russian cattle, and the USSR suffered 10 to 1 losses in the Great Patriotic War ...
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian April 4 2016 10: 30
              +2
              Quote: pft, fkb
              Nosovsky and Fomenko stated their hypothesis

              One of the authors listed by you gave this "hypothesis" to his students for the sake of experiment. And then some grakhdans realized that this was a good commercial project. And away we go. But people like you, not knowing the history of the emergence of "theory" for some reason, take this "theory" into service. And they look funny, especially in the eyes of those who kept the "New Chronology" as homework fool
          2. Idiot
            Idiot April 2 2016 11: 43
            0
            Nosovsky and Fomenko presented their HYPOTHESIS, substantiated it, carried out a titanic quarter-century work: research and mathematical analysis of preserved historical documents in the fields of literature, astronomy, archeology and religion. Prominent scientists, they are at least convincing in their conclusions and were not afraid to challenge orthodox historical science, which has long been a prostitute — even the events of the Second World War and the USSR are misinterpreted. What to say about the affairs of bygone days? Sergo42 probably believes that the Egyptian pyramids were built of hundred-ton slabs, the Rurikovichs came from Scadinavia to rule the Russian cattle, and the USSR suffered 10 to 1 losses in the Great Patriotic War ...
  2. semirek
    semirek 22 March 2016 07: 15
    +8
    Very interesting article!
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 March 2016 07: 22
    +6
    Russian warrior in the Volga Bulgaria - how is it?
    1. kalibr
      22 March 2016 07: 32
      +6
      Why from Bulgaria? It was a border fortification ...
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 22 March 2016 07: 36
        0
        I'm talking about the time frame. From the text: "13th century - refers to the Volga Bulgaria". And the reconstruction of the warrior is not dated.
        1. kalibr
          22 March 2016 07: 46
          +2
          What I knew - wrote. I didn’t do a warrior!
    2. baudolino
      baudolino 22 March 2016 08: 02
      +3
      That's somehow not clear. Everything is being reconstructed in the Russian style, but the accession of the site from the article is not clear. Either Russian or Bulgarian.
      1. kalibr
        22 March 2016 09: 02
        +1
        Corsair 4 wrote well about a small melting pot ...
    3. PKK
      PKK 22 March 2016 14: 21
      +1
      Bulgars, this is the Volga region, they sailed to us to the Don and traded here, in particular sweets, this is what my grandmother told me.
      1. Velizariy
        Velizariy 24 March 2016 11: 21
        0
        What is your long-lived grandmother, the Volga Bulgars found.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 22 March 2016 07: 51
    +5
    Thank you for an interesting tour .. It turns out that it was convenient to storm the fortress on one side only, on the others it was not very, very competent location ..
  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 March 2016 07: 53
    +2
    Thanks. Interesting. And it always remains interesting who inhabited it at different times. And there seemed to be a small "melting pot".
    1. vch62388
      vch62388 22 March 2016 08: 29
      +8
      The middle Volga region is generally a huge melting pot. Following the local saying "Mordvinians, Chuvashs are our people" (it is not said of offense to the Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.) aliens (what can I say, my city was founded (?) Only in 1586) Russian and indigenous local peoples are so intertwined that mixed marriages - not even the norm - are commonplace. Moreover, they are also inter-confessional (like "Tatar - Russian", and no one especially requires the bride to convert, for example, to Islam, because the parents lived almost together for about 300 years. They ran a SIMILAR household, celebrated SIMILAR holidays).
      Personally, I (Russian, but really, but someone knows him) have many friends, colleagues, classmates, drinking companions
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. ver_
        ver_ 22 March 2016 13: 19
        +4
        ... Tatar + Cossack - equestrian warrior, why does everyone want to turn this into a nationality? .. There were Bulgars - became Tatars ..?
    2. vch62388
      vch62388 22 March 2016 08: 58
      +11
      The Middle Volga region is a terrible mixture of nations and nationalities. Different languages, beliefs, customs ... At the same time - an extraordinary unity. Russians are not averse to celebrating Sabantuy, and Tatars are not averse to celebrating a carnival. A huge number of mixed marriages. Local proverbs, such as "Mordovians, Chuvash are our people." Perfect tolerance. Believe me, I have lived here for over 40 years. And for the tolerance melted since childhood (ugh ..., what a word), I am grateful to my small homeland, in which our, now common ancestors lived peacefully (well, almost always ...), celebrated SIMILAR holidays, conducted a SIMILAR household. They were related, in a word.
  6. egor73
    egor73 22 March 2016 08: 06
    +3
    There is evidence that the Zolotorevskoe settlement was a free city that was not part of the Volga Bulgaria and representatives of different peoples lived in it: Russians, Moksha, Burtases, and even ... Siberian Kyrgyz.
  7. EvgNik
    EvgNik 22 March 2016 08: 11
    +7
    Quote: egor73
    Representatives of different peoples lived: Russians, Moksha, Burtases, and even ... Siberian Kyrgyz

    For Russia this is not something exceptional. They have always lived like this.
  8. Vitwin
    Vitwin 22 March 2016 08: 11
    +7
    Here’s a gunner supposedly used to storm the city

    Smiled. Obviously, local history enthusiasts, based on ancient history, created))
    I liked the irony of the author, which clearly gives credibility to the article.
    1. Chiropractor
      Chiropractor 22 March 2016 12: 39
      +3
      sagging bowstring on bent shoulders ...
      well, even without iron nails - already good
  9. Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 08: 27
    +6
    Back in the 60s of the twentieth century, archaeologists discovered traces of a fortress burned by the Mongols.

    Yes, they pulled up already with such conclusions !!!! A memorial plaque was found right on the site of the burnt fortress; "We Mongols were here in 1237 after AD and burned this fortress."
    The history of Penza is pretty well known.
    It was founded in 1663 as a fortress beyond the Lomovskaya defensive line, designed to protect the southeastern outskirts of the Moscow state from the Crimean Tatars and Nogaev. Yury Ermolaevich Kotransky began to build the city by order of the sovereign. A wooden Kremlin was built, which to this day has not been preserved (the remains were demolished in 1839, a square was destroyed on the site of the Kremlin). Around the Kremlin, settlements of civil servants and civilians grew. 5 years after the founding, Penza was subjected to the first raid of the CRIMEAN TATARS, but they were not able to take the city. Later Penza will again and again reflect the onslaught of the Crimean Tatars and the Legs.

    In 1670, part of Stepan Razin’s army under the command of Mikhail Kharitonov entered Penza.

    In 1717, the Crimean Tatars and Nogais last raided Penza, but the city fought back. This big raid went down in history as a big Kuban pogrom.

    In 1774, the troops of Emelyan Pugachev entered the city. Residents arranged a solemn meeting for them. The Pugachevites in the city did not stop and came out from there the very next day.

    Here. Normal historical events are more than enough to excavate an entire cart of arrowheads from the ground every year. Without attracting the notorious "Mongols" by the ears.
    1. kalibr
      22 March 2016 09: 09
      +13
      Yes, that’s exactly what happened: they found a tablet! Only not a sign, but arrowheads. And they have long been typologized by time and affiliation, and therefore are a reliable means of determining both time and people. And I don’t have to talk about Penza. I live here, and my wife worked for many years in the local museum and I was there for nothing that I didn’t spend the night and I know very well who, where and when left behind us! Look at the books of Professor Khudyakov from Novosibirsk. There are many interesting and very good typologies.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 22 March 2016 14: 07
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        And they have long been typologized by time and affiliation, and therefore are a reliable means of determining both time and people.

        By whom and when? What was the basis? Who was the first to determine that this tip could be ONLY for the Mongols?
        Tired of all these fables. Have come. they all won and for 400 years they forgot that they won. And the local are du.ra..chki. that they didn’t even take away more than one super Mongolian horse that doesn’t even need oats. Although when our ancestors came to the Baikal, the real Mongols were shocked to learn that the Russians can use the horse year-round feeding it with winter oats. In the local population, the winter horse was on the pasture and for the household, and even more so the soldiers were useless.
        I walked so at least. And you can continue TOPOLOGIZING finds by someone already TOPOLOGIZING wassat
        1. kalibr
          22 March 2016 21: 55
          +3
          That is, I don’t know, I didn’t read it (by the way, who typologized I wrote to you), but it's not like that! Well, there are many stubborn, ignorant and stupid. And you know, I'm kind of glad. Because besides the history of 25 years I have been doing PR. Statements like yours I collect, keep, and then let the students read and say: See how many there are ... they don’t need a knife ... go and manage them or fools do not deserve a better fate.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 23 March 2016 02: 54
            +3
            Quote: kalibr
            That is, I don’t know, I didn’t read it (by the way, who typologized I wrote to you), but it's not like that! Well, there are many stubborn, ignorant and stupid. And you know, I'm kind of glad. Because besides the history of 25 years I have been doing PR. Statements like yours I collect, keep, and then let the students read and say: See how many there are ... they don’t need a knife ... go and manage them or fools do not deserve a better fate.

            For God's sake . As I understand it, the students you have are not very smart guys, you answer all the questions posed - everything except me))
            By the way, I’m very glad that people like you can teach in this way, otherwise God forbid they went into politics or even worse learned to be an engineer.
            1. kalibr
              23 March 2016 07: 42
              0
              I’m already in politics, only I stand behind the politician, and this is more interesting ...
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 23 March 2016 21: 40
                +3
                Quote: kalibr
                I’m already in politics, only I stand behind the politician, and this is more interesting ...

                Bulk supervise laughing
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Idiot
          Idiot April 2 2016 12: 31
          0
          To the same believer: I strongly agree, twice in solidarity. Himself a historian by education, but used to think that they are rare. They are trying to explain to these stupid people that today there are no methods in archeology to date finds extremely accurately, the error in determining the age of an artifact can reach several thousand years, for example, the most commonly used dating method is radiocarbon dating, based on determining the half-life of the C-14 isotope in the range approximately 6000 - 50 years (!), while the relative accuracy of dating is due to the presence of "reliable chronicle sources", dating by coins is a separate song. Simply put: historians and archaeologists HAVE AGREED TO TOPOLOGIZE the finds, for this they gobble up budget funds at numerous symposia, including international ones. At the same time, the fields cannot find the actual location of Kulikovo, they have been digging for two hundred years, they find one garbage. The version about the construction of the Egyptian pyramids from concrete became a revelation for me. But this is how it is (in the presence of traces of formwork, braiding, a rational explanation is received by inconceivably clear angles in multi-ton masonry) !!! To admit this for modern historical and archaeologists, to admit that they have been driving bullshit to people for centuries, because concrete was invented 500 years ago. 3000 years - Hey! A special pearl is the reading of Egyptian hieroglyphs and the excavation of Troy. For dessert - Etruscan unreadable letters based on Cyrillic. This story is an interesting science.
        5. Idiot
          Idiot April 2 2016 12: 31
          -1
          To the same believer: I strongly agree, twice in solidarity. Himself a historian by education, but used to think that they are rare. They are trying to explain to these stupid people that today there are no methods in archeology to date finds extremely accurately, the error in determining the age of an artifact can reach several thousand years, for example, the most commonly used dating method is radiocarbon dating, based on determining the half-life of the C-14 isotope in the range approximately 6000 - 50 years (!), while the relative accuracy of dating is due to the presence of "reliable chronicle sources", dating by coins is a separate song. Simply put: historians and archaeologists HAVE AGREED TO TOPOLOGIZE the finds, for this they gobble up budget funds at numerous symposia, including international ones. At the same time, the fields cannot find the actual location of Kulikovo, they have been digging for two hundred years, they find one garbage. The version about the construction of the Egyptian pyramids from concrete became a revelation for me. But this is how it is (in the presence of traces of formwork, braiding, a rational explanation is received by inconceivably clear angles in multi-ton masonry) !!! To admit this for modern historical and archaeologists, to admit that they have been driving bullshit to people for centuries, because concrete was invented 500 years ago. 3000 years - Hey! A special pearl is the reading of Egyptian hieroglyphs and the excavation of Troy. For dessert - Etruscan unreadable letters based on Cyrillic. This story is an interesting science.
      2. PKK
        PKK 22 March 2016 15: 08
        +1
        The first nonsense: there was no year 1660 then, Peter the 1st had not yet knocked off 7 thousand years, then it was 7200 some year. Arrowheads could be mixed in different layers by landslides, ground movement. We have such arrowheads on the market with buckets, choose any. nonsense: The Mongolians did not know how to feed their horses in winter, how did they manage to gallop so much from Mongolia to Penza in the spring and summer? In the fall, there is not much grass. Also take the time for feeding. I will add that I was amazed to learn that "Stepan Razin's troops" entered Penza ?! If Stepan Timofeevich, an unregistered Cossack, played tricks around the Caspian Sea for two years and that's it, returned to DON Razin, worked so much that he would have been stopped, he would not have reached the Volga.
      3. Seal
        Seal 24 March 2016 19: 20
        +1
        And they have long been typologized by time and affiliation, and therefore are a reliable means of determining both time and people.

        What does "time typology" mean? What, you found a centenarian who told you exactly which arrowheads were used in a particular century?

        In fact, "typologized by time" means only that archaeologists-diggers somehow sat down (in the past or the century before last - I know), as usual, drank vodka and decided that to make life easier for themselves and future generations tips (nose rings, horse bits, and so on) are typologized by time. Then, to the joy of their thought, they thumped again and began to typologize. As a result, they compiled a collection of types of arrowheads related to this or that century. And you are now passing it off as the ultimate truth.
        But actually it’s just CONTRACT between archaeologists-diggers (well, and historians adjacent to them). Here they are, archaeologists diggers and historians took AGREED.
        But those who agreed, especially if it was still in tsarist times, behaved more correctly and did not forget to ascribe everywhere that such a tip (well, for example, sample No. 23) presumably refers to (for example) the period between 1400-1600 years.

        Who gobbled up the term presumably ?
        Why now he is nowhere to be found. Why do you affirm everything categorically?

        And "by belonging"? Well, a merchant, for example, came from Dzungaria, brought 20 thousand arrowheads from there, sold it to the Nogai and Crimean Tatars. They put heads on their arrows and came near Penza. After 300 years, the arrows rotted away - only the arrowheads remained. Your conclusion is that the Dzungar army came to Penza lol
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 March 2016 09: 38
          +1
          Quote: Seal
          Well, a merchant, for example, came from Dzungaria, brought from there 20 of thousands of arrowheads, sold them to feet and Crimean Tatars.

          Reasoning of a man who grew up on a computer game. You, at least for the sake of interest, calculate how much the delivered tips for 2 000 kilometers will cost to the Crimean Tatars. They not only would not plant them on the poles, but use them on a par with gold. The main way for the arrowhead is on the arrow of a warrior, provided that this weapon is very, very inexpensive.
          1. Idiot
            Idiot April 2 2016 12: 38
            +1
            In the Middle Ages arrowheads were the same product as today Kalashnikov assault rifle and BP to it. In some regions of the world it is very inexpensive and can be transported even by a minor and uneducated warrior for many thousands of kilometers
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian April 4 2016 10: 32
              0
              Quote: pft, fkb
              In the Middle Ages arrowheads were the same product as today Kalashnikov assault rifle and BP to it.

              And for Vietnam, a machine made in China will cost the same as assembled in Slovakia ??? 2 score for you in economics. am
          2. Idiot
            Idiot April 2 2016 12: 38
            0
            In the Middle Ages arrowheads were the same product as today Kalashnikov assault rifle and BP to it. In some regions of the world it is very inexpensive and can be transported even by a minor and uneducated warrior for many thousands of kilometers
    2. guzik007
      guzik007 22 March 2016 10: 09
      +7
      The history of Penza is pretty well known.
      --------------------------------------------------
      Colleague, and who is talking about Penza here? The events described here are by no means related to Penza. For it was not there yet.
      And about this settlement and the history of its discovery was an interesting film a few years ago. It looks in one breath. In general, it is amazing how nature itself preserved it for posterity. in the film, by the way, a lot of facts are not included in the article.
      Thanks to the author!
  10. Cartalon
    Cartalon 22 March 2016 09: 01
    +1
    Um, the article is interesting, but who burned whom when it’s completely not clear what dates are not given
  11. Rorabek
    Rorabek 22 March 2016 09: 44
    +8
    On the upper reaches of the Sura River of the Penza Region, near the village of Zolotarevka, in 1882, an archaeological discovery of the oldest settlement was established, which settled on this land in the 3-4th century. The result of the work of archaeologists over the course of several decades was the excavation of a historical site called the Zolotarevsky hillfort, with a total area of ​​16 hectares.

    Zolotarevskoe settlement, which served as a stop on the trade route from Bulgar to Kiev, for many years was the border zone of the Volga Bulgaria. Fenced on all sides by forests, ditches and powerful ramparts, the ancient city for many centuries was an impregnable fortress. Based on excavation materials, it was found; that from the 8th to the 10th centuries, the Mordovian culture prevailed in the settlement, in the 11th-13th centuries jewelry, weapons and tools belonged to the Burtases, Mordovians and Bulgars. In 1237, during the Mongol invasion, a battle took place that completely destroyed the entire settlement of Zolotarevsky settlement. Numerous human remains, items of Mongolian weapons and traces of conflagrations were found under a small layer of greenery. For this place, time seemed to stop. People no longer populated this area, and the Zolotoryovsk settlement remained untouched after the battle until our time.

    Today, excavations continue to take place on historical land, and the Festival “Zolotarevskoye Gorodishche - Crossroads of Civilization” takes place on a separate territory with theatrical performances of battles, a craftsmen fair and a festive concert program.

    Zolotarevskoe settlement is a unique archaeological monument of the region’s medieval history.



    Source: http://www.votpusk.ru/country/dostoprim_info.asp?ID=11076#ixzz43bwTGnHe
  12. Rorabek
    Rorabek 22 March 2016 09: 47
    +6
    Despite the fact that the inhabitants of Zolotarevsky settlement were preparing to meet the enemy in advance, the battle was fierce, and lasted at least two days, day and night, in the field and on the walls of the fortress.

    It was a battle of peoples: the settlement was protected by Bulgars, Burtases, Mordovians, Russians, Kypchaks, representatives of Askiz culture (ancestors of the Khakass and Kyrgyz). The composition of the Mongol army was also multinational, but Turkic tribes prevailed in it. Over the past centuries, the battlefield was covered with grass and forest, people have never settled here, and therefore time has stopped here. Everything remained to lie as it was in 1237.

    All this makes the Zolotarevsky settlement a reference monument to the medieval history of Eastern Europe.
    1. PKK
      PKK 22 March 2016 14: 55
      -1
      Zolotarevsky settlement should stand on the river. And the Cossacks attacked it. If it is somewhere in the forest, this cannot be or a full-flowing river flowed nearby. All the logistics were along the rivers.
    2. Gomunkul
      Gomunkul 22 March 2016 17: 41
      0
      Everything remained to lie as it was in 1237.
      Not certainly in that way:
      However, the discoveries at the Zolotarevsky settlement did not end there, and at the end of the second millennium it presented new surprises. In 1998-2000, near the settlement, thanks to the active research of V. A. Vinnichek, V. V. Yankov, V. A. Yakunin, O. V. Bocharov, led by G. N. Belorybkin as part of the archaeological expedition of the Penza State Pedagogical University Three new villages and a fortification system were discovered and examined. Investigations of the villages showed that the cultural layer in the settlements was first demolished by tractors during the reforestation and collected in small heaps along with things, and is currently being plundered by treasure hunters. But even what was left after all of this made it possible to take a fresh look at many problems.
  13. Rorabek
    Rorabek 22 March 2016 09: 48
    +3
    Another evidence of the uniqueness of the Zolotarevsky settlement was the proof that people lived on the Volga territory that were not previously known - representatives of the Askiz culture - are the ancestors of modern Kyrgyz and Khakasses. Separate objects testifying to its existence were found in many cities of the Volga region, but the opportunity to prove the presence of a separate people became possible only as a result of archaeological finds and research on the Zolotarevsky settlement. This allows us to talk about a new page in the history of the Volga peoples.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 22 March 2016 14: 10
      +1
      How do you know the nat. structure? What did the census find somewhere?
  14. brn521
    brn521 22 March 2016 10: 14
    +3
    local peasants dug here and even found hryvnias made of silver and jewelry made of gold, although they were not at all interested in the “rusty glands”, and they threw them away

    Iron and bad steel quickly come to rust, good steel remains. And good steel has long been a rather expensive commodity. Therefore, archaeological finds of such a plan were sent for reforging. So there is only one explanation - no one lived there.
  15. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 22 March 2016 10: 48
    +4
    Dear Vyacheslav, as always, pleases you with another brilliant article! I believe that this is how one should write about ancient military history and archeology, and not as some other comrades do in neighboring branches.

    Quote: vch62388
    The middle Volga region is generally a huge melting pot. Following the local saying "Mordvinians, Chuvashs are our people" (it is not said of offense to the Tatars, Bashkirs, etc.) aliens (what can I say, my city was founded (?) Only in 1586) Russian and indigenous local peoples are so intertwined that mixed marriages - not even the norm - are commonplace.
    Yes, everything is correct, in Zolotarevka there was apparently a mixed population even then, though without the Tatar element.

    The first tip is rather large and rough in appearance. For some reason, its surface is covered with an oblique notch, similar to the notch of old files, but not typical for arrows,
    Did not know ! In my opinion, such a tip should leave a gross lacerated wound on an unprotected body, but at the same time it has the worst penetrating ability.
    1. kalibr
      22 March 2016 11: 27
      +7
      Thanks for getting started! I will answer about the "end". I can't say anything about this tip. And why should the wound from him be lacerated? The usual flat tip, for some reason with a notch (it hardly affected its penetrating ability), and also gold-plated. What for? My opinion is a kind of "coat of arms", a generic arrow, like the samurai had, but how to prove it? There are no analogues! In general ... you just need to go there, take a walk, close your eyes and think. For me, there are many such places - these are Gorgippia (Anapa) and Hermonassa (Taman), Carcassonne and "Cupid's Castle" ... you can't list them all - and you always feel something there that you can't convey. Like another step and you are in the past. Also in Zolotarevka!
  16. igordok
    igordok 22 March 2016 11: 35
    +7
    We can say a typical "cape" type fortress. Only. The gate, as the most vulnerable place, was placed in a single form, on the floor side, and here there is one more, and on the very cape.
    Shafts can last a very long time. In a large fortress, the piers were covered with soil, which, after the destruction of the fortress, added height to the shaft.
    In the photo, the shaft remaining from the tree-land fortress Krasnogorodsk (Krasny Gorodets) Pskov. reg.
    1. igordok
      igordok 22 March 2016 11: 48
      +4
      About a large number of arrowheads.
      My friend, still in Soviet times, was fond of speleology, and after one of the trips from the Caucasus he boasted. He showed a bunch of tips, more 30pcs. I gave 4 little things as a souvenir. And he showed a photograph of some meadow in the foothills. The field is literally covered with tips, grass breaks through the tips, and the soil is almost invisible. The main legend is that it was a sacrificial field. A sacrificial animal was launched at him and killed from a bow. And to go in and even more so to take something on the field was a taboo.
      It is a pity the photo was not preserved, it was real, paper. And my tips are lying around somewhere.
  17. xBoris
    xBoris 22 March 2016 11: 35
    0
    Yes .. Really OUR STORY, ..
    Where are the annals ..?
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 23 March 2016 16: 25
      0
      I didn’t read it myself, but I saw links in different books about the fact that the Lavrentiev, Ipatiev and Radziwill annals contain information about the cities and grand dukes of the Ancient Slavs BEFORE RURIK!
  18. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 22 March 2016 11: 45
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    And why should the wound from him be lacerated? Ordinary flat tip, for some reason with a notch (it is unlikely to affect its penetrating ability),

    Well, I read about similar spearheads and sword blades, for example, that not only with the serration of the edge, but even with notches, the penetrating ability is lower, but that soft tissue tears more ... Maybe for some reason we decided to make such arrows ...

    Another option - maybe a special sound? because there are tips specifically with a special sound? (by the way, this is more typical for the steppe nomads - such tips seemed to be found among the Scythians and the Huns, and then among the Mongols).
  19. Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 22 March 2016 13: 53
    +5
    "In several places one can see" ancient log cabins ", which make it possible to imagine the true dimensions of the houses of that time, and to draw a logical conclusion that they were very small, and that our ancestors, who lived in such settlements, could not help but suffer from overcrowding."
    Let me disagree. They could live in the village and in the surrounding villages and hamlets, and in the settlement they could hide from the finders. Small houses could be the home of professional warriors, like barracks. Well, then you understand the version. The article is interesting.
    1. kalibr
      22 March 2016 16: 03
      +1
      A very interesting idea, it will be necessary to tell Belorybkin. Thank you!
      1. Gomunkul
        Gomunkul 22 March 2016 17: 48
        +2
        A very interesting idea, it will be necessary to tell Belorybkin. Thank you!
        He probably knows, because judging by the official information, they dig there for a long time:
        His discovery dates back to 1882. This event happened thanks to F.F. Chekalin. He was the first to explore antiquities on the territory of the Upper Posuria and immediately discovered several hillforts. In his opinion, these were the remains of fortresses of the serif line of the 1892th century, including the Zolotarevskoye settlement (Chekalin, XNUMX). After F.F. Chekalin, the main explorers of the settlement became local residents who dug it in search of gold.
        Since 1952, the scientific study of the Zolotarevsky settlement began by an archaeological expedition led by M.R. Polesskikh. In 1952, 1953, 1957, these were reconnaissance, and in 1959, 1965, 1976 and 1977, excavations were carried out (Poleskikh, 1953, 1954, 1958, 1960, 1966, 1977, 1978).

        Thanks for the article, she prompted me to search for additional information, here's what I managed to find: http: //сувары.рф/ru/content/zolotarevskoe-poselenie
        1. svd-xnumx
          svd-xnumx 22 March 2016 19: 16
          +2
          some videos
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 March 2016 09: 44
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        Thank you!

        Of course, tell me. And about the T-shaped tip too. It is a pity that there is no photo of the tip with notches, it would be interesting to intensify it.
  20. Old_Python
    Old_Python 22 March 2016 15: 00
    +1
    A chopped tip with the ends apart is like a fork, or what? Then this is most likely for shooting at all kinds of ropes, a fairly well-known type ...
    1. kalibr
      22 March 2016 16: 05
      +4
      I probably described it poorly. The tip is cut in half. It turned out two points - right? And now they are divorced in a right angle to the sides. Looking at the side, the letter T is obtained. You can’t cut anything like that! She has no point!
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 22 March 2016 16: 09
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        You will not chop anything with such a letter! She has no point!

        And it’s good that there is no point. On a small furry beast such an arrow. It will knock down, stun and break bones without spoiling the skins.
        1. Gomunkul
          Gomunkul 22 March 2016 17: 51
          +3
          And it’s good that there is no point. On a small furry beast such an arrow. It will knock down, stun and break bones without spoiling the skins.
          Good and logical version.
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 23 March 2016 09: 00
            0
            Quote: Gomunkul
            Good and logical version.

            And in case of a miss, it will not stick into a tree.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  21. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 22 March 2016 15: 13
    -2
    Well, what have the Russians to do with it, when it is the fortress of the Volga Bulgaria, and Moksha lived !! And Russia arose on the territory of the Finno-Ugric tribes, and the main tribe is Meria! And Rostov and Suzdal and Beloozero, all these are Finno-Ugric cities! Two Finno-Ugric and two Slavic tribes invited the Varangians from where the Russian land came from! Then the Slavic tribes of the Dnieper and the Turkic tribes of the great steppe already got here. And the basis of everything became Church Slavonic (based on Old Bulgarian) and the Orthodox faith !! And the notorious Slavization began when the Ukrainians in Russia broke and in 19 became the main national minority, even in St. Petersburg!
    Thanks so much for the article! But I would like more detail, especially about Purgasova Rus !!
  22. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 22 March 2016 15: 31
    +4
    Quote: JääKorppi
    Well, what have the Russians to do with it, when it is the fortress of the Volga Bulgaria, and Moksha lived !! And Russia arose on the territory of the Finno-Ugric tribes, and the main tribe is Meria! And Rostov and Suzdal and Beloozero, all these are Finno-Ugric cities!

    Well, before the arrival of the Slavs, the Finno-Ugric tribes were somehow strained with the cities. Some large villages - yes, but not cities.

    It is hard to say of what the garrison of the Zolotarevsky settlement consisted of, anthropological reconstruction of skeletons must be done. Most likely a mixed population.

    Quote: JääKorppi
    But I would like more detail, especially about Purgasova Rus !!
    Unfortunately, nothing is known except for a few mentions in the annals. Most likely it was a kind of tribal association of the Volga Finns in the 13 century, with a rather short period of existence, the greatest military success of which was a trip to Nizhny Novgorod. The further fate of Purgasova Rus is simple - either the Russian princes, seeing the hostile union gaining strength, made a punitive expedition, or soon the Mongols came ...
  23. Rorabek
    Rorabek 22 March 2016 17: 03
    0
    The invasion of the Volga Bulgaria began with a "battle of sheep" and for 13 years the Mongols fought to avenge the insult and, judging by the date of the battle at the Zolotorevskoye settlement, it was the end of the destruction of the Volga Bulgaria or its agony ... no one had fought with the Mongols for 13 years. .., except for the Bulgars ... there is a version that the Chuvashs fought with them together ... the garrison of the above fortress was multinational due to the availability of equipment and ammunition items that directly indicate nationality, and what archaeologists know better about this, than many SOFA ANALYST laughing
  24. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 22 March 2016 20: 09
    -3
    Large settlements near Mordovians, not cities? Well, yes, the Slavs did not have cities! Ladoga (Finno-Ugric) and Novgorod - Slavs and all and even that is the 8th century! And where does the mixed population come from? Kiyov is the same settlement! Archaeologically, the resettlement of the Slavs has not been established. Only an exuberant imagination can imagine how people are moving from the fertile chernozem of the Dnieper to the Mordovian forests! Even in 1812, half of the Russian soldiers considered themselves Mordovians!
  25. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 22 March 2016 21: 38
    +1
    Quote: Rorabek
    for 13 years no one has fought with the Mongols ... except for the Bulgars ..
    So, I think, amazingly little they lasted! For example, Egyptian-Syrian Mamluks fought (with constant success) for 40 years, from 1260x to 1300x, and conducted several successful military campaigns. Well, the Chinese of South China (Song kingdom) fought in general from 1240x to 1340x (AT ALL 100 years !!!) and finally won the Mongols.

    Quote: JääKorppi
    Ladoga (Finno-Ugric) and Novgorod are Slavs and that’s all and even 8 century!
    You probably don’t know that in the cultural layer Ladoga find almost exclusively SCANDINAVIAN things? those. Was it a typical Varangian outpost?

    Quote: JääKorppi
    Archaeologically, the resettlement of the Slavs has not been established.
    Come on, Vyatichi burials for example clearly show migrations even from Eastern Europe to the Volga region.

    Quote: JääKorppi
    as with fertile chernozem Dnieper people
    moving to Mordovian forests!
    There are 2 reasons for this:
    1. Resettlement, all suitable and safe lands have already been developed.
    2. A constant threat from the peoples of the Wild Field - Kievan Rus was able to defeat them all or force them to further migration or make them federal, except for the Polovtsy. The Polovtsian problem for the 12 century was not completely resolved, and then the Mongols came.

    Quote: JääKorppi
    Even in 1812, half of the Russian soldiers considered themselves Mordovians!
    Wow, have you kept individual questionnaires of Russian soldiers of the 1812 of the year? Do not share the world sensation?
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 23 March 2016 09: 35
      +1
      Quote: Warrior2015
      Come on, Vyatichi burials for example clearly show migrations even from Eastern Europe to the Volga region.

      Moreover, in some cemeteries they find jewelry in the form of a mogendovid. without any irony. It is good that Samsonov will not read this post, otherwise it would be an article about the ancient Russian origin of the Jewish tribes ...
  26. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 23 March 2016 16: 18
    0
    Dear Vyacheslav, you continue to delight us with new information !!! Wonderful photos. This is how the peoples lived in these places! I discovered a lot of new things. As you told us, there was the Moksha tribe. I remember the Slavic Goddess Makosh, the Sanskrit term "Moksha" - - liberation ... And I would advise Mr. JääKorpi not to fight the idea of ​​cities among the Ancient Slavs or Finnougrians who lived in Russia, but to look for information on this topic.
  27. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 24 March 2016 00: 20
    +2
    Nothing should have remained on the battlefields, because military armor and weapons were very expensive and special teams always collected everything to the smallest detail.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 March 2016 09: 42
      0
      Quote: Alexander Green
      Nothing should have remained on the battlefields

      Yes of course. There, the princely helmet did not search, but then the tips rushed to collect ..

      http://do.gendocs.ru/docs/index-264870.html Раздел третий.
  28. COJIDAT
    COJIDAT 24 March 2016 17: 46
    +1
    I live nearby, but there’s no way to go. ATP for the article, we must go!
  29. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 26 March 2016 03: 19
    0
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    Look, we didn’t look for the princely helmet,

    Well this is an exception confirming the rule! Moreover, judging by the position found, it was neatly removed with chain mail and hidden in some sort of cleft in the swamp.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 26 March 2016 10: 44
      +1
      Quote: Warrior2015
      Well this is an exception confirming the rule!

      Quite a fair comment. Anything could be: a hasty withdrawal due to the threat of an enemy approach, on the contrary - a hasty offensive, so as not to give them time to come to their senses or serious mutual losses. Several years ago, on one project, I expressed a version that the tradition of "standing for three days" on the battlefield, proving its victory, was conditioned precisely by the collection of weapons and ammunition. By the way, it was this "tradition" that saved the order Germans after the defeat at Grunwald: Malbrok was defenseless.
  30. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 26 March 2016 21: 12
    0
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    the tradition of "standing for three days" on the battlefield, proving their victory, was conditioned by the collection of weapons and ammunition.

    Including. But mainly by the burial of the dead. Just on the 1 day, everyone was relaxing and celebrating, and then on the 1-2 day they collected trophies and buried the fallen.

    Quote: Pomoryanin
    By the way, it was this "tradition" that saved the order Germans after the defeat at Grunwald: Malbrok was defenseless.
    Everything about Gruewald is complicated. Let's just say, I just see the prohibitive level of losses incurred by the Polish-Lithuanian army, after which, in general, they changed their minds to “finish off” the Order and more politics than military necessity came into play.

    Well, the defenselessness of Malbork is a myth - even 1-3 thousand people of a garrison of such a fortress could hold on for a very long time, and in the western provinces of the Order they could assemble a new army and a new battle could have unpredictable consequences.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 27 March 2016 11: 39
      0
      Quote: Warrior2015
      Well, the defenselessness of Malbork is a myth - even 1-3 thousand people of a garrison of such a fortress could hold on for a very long time

      The fact is that Malbork was defended at that time by 1 (one) knight. How many militias were not known, but I think that even the army of the Gediminovich brothers, exhausted by losses, could not take it. But when they came to their senses, the train left.
      Quote: Warrior2015
      more politics came into play

      This is the most correct version. It seems that both the Catholic Jagiello and the semi-Catholic Vitovt will begin to destroy the Catholic Knightly Order? In the West they would not understand.
  31. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 27 March 2016 15: 50
    0
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    The fact is that Malbork was defended at that time by 1 (one) knight. How many militias were not known, but I think that even the army of the Gediminovich brothers, exhausted by losses, could not take it.

    Now I don’t remember where I read the debriefing using German sources - and so, the fact that there was one knight in Malbork is a myth. This was the only commander who survived, i.e. senior officer. It is not known exactly how many other knights there were - and of the order brothers, and half-brothers, and knights-guests. And bollards and militias - well, they could have scored at least a thousand or two more.
    Again - after such a hard victory the Allies feasted too much, robbed neighboring villages too long and too much ... When they came to their senses - yes, the train left.

    And yet - there is a version that the good allies of the Order at that time - Muscovite Russia - knowing that the main forces of Lithuanian Rus were occupied on the western front, - decided to plant a pig for those who often planted it before us, - and began the campaign, - and the news about him exactly came to the camp of the Grunwald winners when they decided what to do next ...
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 27 March 2016 19: 17
      0
      Quote: Warrior2015
      and started the campaign, - and the news of him came exactly to the camp of the Grunwald winners when they decided what to do next ...

      Do you think that the eternal peace of 1408 of the year after standing on the Ugra, Vasily with Vitovt was so directly and immediately violated? With the campaign of Vasily against Vytautas in 1410, someone deceived you.
  32. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 28 March 2016 21: 24
    0
    And who knows? Time was such ... Or do you think that our ancestors did not violate the world? and couldn’t be allies of evil orders? laughing

    The army could go out, but just start mobilizing - and immediately the agent informs Vilno that the "Muscovites" are getting ready for a campaign against Lithuania. And from there a messenger trotted to the headquarters of the feasting main army.

    Everything is not easy there - and when the obvious reasons for some serious decision are not visible on the surface, you need to look at the whole phenomenon.

    The defenselessness of Malbork is downplayed. But - if they started a serious siege and then stormed - they could probably take it. But when a person wants, he will always find an opportunity. And when he doesn’t want to, he will find the reason ...