Tomislav Nikolic: relations between Serbia and Russia are exceptional
Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic, whose visit to Moscow begins on 9 in March, spoke about the upcoming talks, Serbia’s relations with NATO, in an exclusive TASS interview, and shared his views on the role of Russia in Syria, on the migration crisis in Europe and EU sanctions on the Russian Federation.
- Mr. President, thank you for the opportunity to talk with you on the eve of your visit to Russia, where you are expected to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill. For you, this is not the first visit to our country. What feeling do you go to Moscow, what do you expect from this visit, what issues are you going to discuss?
- The immediate reason is the award of the Foundation for the Unity of Orthodox Peoples (The International Foundation for the Unity of Orthodox Peoples awarded the award to the President of Serbia Tomislav Nikolic "for his outstanding work in strengthening the unity of Orthodox peoples and promoting Christian values in public life - TASS note.
And, of course, I can not imagine that I came to Moscow and did not ask for a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Moreover, we have met in such situations many times and thus made up for the impossibility of organizing official visits more often than the protocol allows.
I am always happy to go to Moscow. Moscow is a city that I have visited for many years. Never before started politics. And since I began to be involved in politics, I often came to Moscow. And when I was in opposition. We have something to talk about with President Putin. The situation in the world is extremely complex. And the position of Serbia is extremely complex. Of course, we would not be able to remain on it if there was no understanding on the part of the Russian Federation regarding the efforts we are making in trying to maintain balance, and on the other side - in the West, urging them not to insist on breaking off relations with Russia, as it is not considered economically, politically, or in any other sense.
Trade and economic growth between our countries is not high enough, one could have expected much more. The conversation with President Putin will also be directed to specific projects that are either in the agreement phase or in the implementation phase, as agreed by the Intergovernmental Commission, ministries, enterprises among themselves. So it will be very busy days in Moscow. And, of course, I am glad that I will meet with His Holiness (Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill), with whom we also met very often both in Belgrade and in Moscow.
- Can you open the program of your visit as a whole? What other meetings will you have?
- You know that we have a lot of Russian investments in Serbia. Not only Gazprom, which is the largest investor and who has invested in our oil industry, but also plans to meet with representatives of the Russian Railways. I will try to hold meetings with investors who will help to decorate the church of Saint Sava in Belgrade with mosaics. This is a Russian gift to Serbia, the Serbian people, the Serbian Orthodox Church. I plan to talk with people who make decisions who have managed to raise money in Russia for this purpose.
We will talk about the military industry, about joint projects and what else needs to be done to show neutral military relations between Serbia and Russia, which also exist with NATO. Thus, it will be very busy days, but, unfortunately, time is short.
- You have already met with Russian President Vladimir Putin before. How are your relationships developing - not official, but human?
- I do not know what President Putin feels towards me, I can say that I feel towards him. Fully open friendship, and friendship to such an extent that I could open my secrets to him, in connection with which I would need advice or understanding. This is a relationship of understanding.
I think that President Putin and I have introduced relations between the Serbian and Russian peoples into our personal relations. I think for the first time in stories the president of Russia and the president of Serbia speak as the Russians and Serbs speak, meeting on the street anywhere - in Serbia, in Russia or somewhere in the world.
We both know well the history of our peoples and the relations between them. And, of course, Russia has always acted as a defender of the Serbian people. And from there that Serb love for Russia. It is not based on economic relations, but solely on the fact that Russia stood for Serbia, when Serbia needed it. Serbia suffered when Russia was not close to it or when Russia was not strong enough to protect itself, as, for example, in the times before President Vladimir Putin.
- You have already partially answered my next question about how you assess the state of relations between Serbia and Russia. But nevertheless, I would like to ask what place Russia occupies in the list of Serbia’s foreign policy priorities?
- There is a dual attitude here. Serbia took the position of complete neutrality. Military neutrality is fixed by the decision of the Assembly (parliament), but there is also our common desire to have a certain political neutrality, which may be somewhat more difficult to accomplish than military neutrality. With military neutrality, everything is clear. We are not joining either one or the other union, we work with one and with others. With one - a little more, with others - a little less. With some more joint military exercises, with others less. Our specialized units cooperate. There is a good political balance here.
It is inconvenient that we very often turn to Russia for political support and assistance in international organizations in which we participate, especially in the UN Security Council, where the role of Russia in maintaining territorial integrity and sovereignty of Serbia is, I think, key, direct.
On the other hand, for Serbia in the environment in which it is now, to become a member of the EU is an imperative. It simply cannot remain surrounded by the EU member countries without being one of them itself. We are directly connected with the European Union, the EU separates us from Russia, and this has an impact. Perhaps someone in Russia can say: “Why do we help them so much if they want to join the European Union?” And in the EU, someone can say: “Why are we negotiating with them, if they are so frustrated and committed to Russia, they say that they love her so much that they will not impose any sanctions on her?” This is a very difficult situation.
Our political relations (with Russia) are exceptional, and I must say that they are also exceptional because Russia has an understanding towards Serbia. Otherwise it would be very easy to say: “Well, you want to be in the European Union, we will take a position towards you, as well as towards other EU member states”.
No, Russia always goes one step further in supporting Serbia, what would be expected. And again, if you remember the story, if you look at what the citizens think, then this is what they expect from Russia. I think that if I had not directly approached President Putin for help from Serbia, the Serbian people, and Serbian interests, I could always count on Russia to take this step. Because grandfathers did it this way, so do we now, so will our children do in the future.
- What areas do you consider the most promising for the development of cooperation between our countries? In your opinion, in what areas have we far advanced in cooperation, and where is there still unrealized potential for developing relations?
- When huge Russia and small Serbia cooperate, the potential is everywhere. Serbia has made mistakes since 2000 of the year, losing most of its industry. The privatization, which had to be carried out in connection with the fact that Serbia had entered liberal capitalism, was carried out in such a way that almost everything was plundered, closed, and destroyed.
But knowledge remained, technology remained, quality remained. And Russia, which today is a vast market for Serbia, can rightly say: "Give the goods." The possibilities are endless. We have access to the Russian market with special duty-free conditions for maybe more than 80% products. We can even produce in collaboration with foreign firms. If the goods on 50 plus 1% are Serbian, and we prove it to our Russian partners, then we can also export it without customs duties.
As for the Russian market, we did not use it. Not even in agricultural production, because Serbia was not used to producing large volumes of goods for Russia. Since the Russian buyer does not come for one truck to sink in one village, for another truck - to another. If Russia buys fruit, then that year they have a good price, and if the Russians do not appear that year, then those fruits will disappear. We have no other market. We have a European market, but we do not have goods for the European market.
In the military industry can also actively cooperate. I think this door is open. Our repair plants can repair enough of the weapons that Russia has and which it can then sell.
I think that the situation is more favorable than a few years ago, because Serbia is more sincere towards Russia. And the fact that it can, then Serbia promises, which it cannot - it will not promise. We began to realize what we are worth, how much we mean. When you fulfill your obligations, when you take care not to be disgraced, then you are also appreciated by those who are much bigger than you, who can incinerate you in five days with some kind of new weaponry. And I am happy that after several decades, after 15 years, we are again the state with which everyone is seriously considered and which no one can ignore.
We in the Balkans are a factor to which both the East and the West refer. It depends on us what the situation will be in the Balkans. And when others enter into some kind of conflict with Serbia, and when Serbia reacts peacefully and with dignity, conflicts are smoothed out.
- As far as I know, the statistics showed that by the end of last year, the number of Russian tourists coming to Serbia has significantly increased. How interested is Serbia in Russian tourists? Is something being done to further increase their number?
- Serbia has exceptional conditions for specific types of tourism. Serbia has no sea, but there are lakes, there are baths (thermal springs) and ski resorts. I think that it has reached numerous contacts between tour operators, as a huge number of Russian tourists went to Turkey, and now the Russians are not going there, and we need to look for new directions. And they know that here (in Serbia) they will meet friendship, hospitality, fraternity, a very similar lifestyle - similar to how they live in Russia.
And now the only question is whether people who work in the tourism sector of Serbia will be able to use this opportunity. Bath tourism is specific - those who once visited the thermal springs and experienced their beneficial effects come later every year. We have mountain Kopaonik, the beautiful Stara Planina - fully equipped ski resorts. Even when there is no snow, when bad years, like, for example, this one, the tracks are completely ready.
The possibilities are great, the only disadvantage is that there is no sea. Many people are accustomed to spend their annual vacation at sea and do not think differently. And I met Russian tourists in almost all countries where there is a sea.
We will offer what we have. If there are investors, we can expand opportunities. We have a lot of unused thermal health resorts, for which we have no money to develop them. Joint investments would mean, firstly, a recovery for Russian tourists, and on the other hand - a profit for those who will invest.
- If we started talking about tourism and recreation, what is your favorite place in Serbia, where do you like to relax?
- I have the happiness of owning a property in my father’s native village, where I sometimes spend Saturday and Sunday, but mostly I can spend Saturday and Sunday. We cultivate the land there, we have our own gardens there, we collect mushrooms and medicinal herbs. I don’t go anywhere - neither to restaurants, nor to places where there are a lot of people, because I don’t want to annoy people with my guards and with a special regime that would then be applied. I'm just going to my house, but this is not an apartment, this is nature, this is 700 meters above sea level. I think it fully corresponds to me. So I spend the weekend, I am in summer and in winter, when I have a free day.
- A big resonance both in Serbia itself and in Russia was caused by the law on cooperation with NATO ratified by the Assembly and recently signed by you. Some Serbian politicians spoke of a "creeping entry into NATO." How do you feel about their idea of holding a referendum on the issue of rapprochement between Serbia and NATO? And in general, what is your opinion on the cooperation of Serbia with the alliance?
- I will say straight away that we do not need a referendum for various kinds of agreements, but on the question of possible joining NATO would be needed. I support this question for the referendum, but it cannot be passed.
There are simply not enough Serbian citizens who would like Serbia to be in military alliance. Not because we had a war with them, but because Serbia was never in military alliances, except for the time when the war started and Serbia joined the right side in that war. Never in peacetime have we entered into any military alliance. And we didn’t expect anyone to attack us, as NATO attacked us, but then we were a state without protection. Then all the protection we could provide was our army, our people. And no one dared to send ground troops to us, to Yugoslavia. They tried to penetrate through Kosovo and Metohia, and when they suffered a great defeat, they changed the tactics with which they eventually came to Kosovo and Metohia under the banners of the United Nations.
We have enough cooperation agreements with NATO: five agreements signed so far. It is signed three years ago. It was only recently ratified by the Assembly (parliament) on a special occasion. Because we have a plant in Kraugevac, where they repair weapon. There is a huge amount of ammunition that we cannot even touch. A few years ago, we had an incident in Paracin in this kind of warehouse where the city suffered. This we must avoid. Only American technology can save, and they set a condition: they will do everything, but their people should be protected. You know, if we have an agreement under which the NATO army can pass through the territory of Serbia, what do 10 or 15 people who will be involved in preparing those weapons for destruction mean? They will have some kind of diplomatic immunity. For us it means nothing.
I would just like to tell the public that a chance has been missed. When we entered into a demining agreement with the Russians, then the Russian side could demand that they have the status that the US required for its citizens, and Serbia would give it exactly.
Let's look at that center in Nis (Russian-Serbian Humanitarian Center). He is not a military man. This is a peace center, which serves to protect against what is difficult to defend against - from various natural disasters. The region needs it, it helped the region, but other countries do not want to accept the existence of a Russian center that will help them, but they cry for help when a fire or a flood occurs. Then the center in Niš is good for them, but they do not want to have any agreements with it. So, with regard to the status, we had one treaty that was supposed to be ratified the year before last in October, but then the opportunity to ratify it was missed. Let's see. Unfortunately, the Assembly is dissolved, and the government no longer has the opportunity to sign it, and the Assembly has no opportunity to ratify it.
But the prime minister (Alexander Vuchich) in a conversation with Prime Minister Medvedev, and I in a conversation with President Putin will agree on this topic and decide everything so as to convince our Russian partners that we will never be a member of NATO. And let us say to NATO: "What is the problem? If we have an agreement with you, then why don't we have it with the CSTO or directly with Russia? This is a sign of neutrality. Or an agreement with anyone, or with all agreements."
- The issue that has recently become increasingly relevant is the migration crisis, which directly affects Serbia, located on the so-called "Balkan route." A number of other countries of this route limit the reception of migrants. What is your country doing to cope with this problem, not to quarrel with its neighbors and reassure its own citizens?
- Serbia has the advantage of being a transit country. In fact, none of them (migrants) want to live here. Firstly, they are not accustomed to living in Serbia, then they have no one here - neither relatives, nor anyone else, who moved here before them and could help them a little. Thirdly, there is no work for them. We do not have all our people employed, and they know it well. But there are other transit countries, but not all of them behaved as well as Serbia. In the EU, it happened that he bowed before the very first call and showed that what is signed, what is agreed, why many countries give up part of their sovereignty and come under some supranational sovereignty - all this collapses when they appear challenges.
We are a transit country that fulfills all its obligations, but in reality we depend on others. Depending on when Germany or Austria says: "We have exhausted our resources." That chain goes to Greece. The problem is what to do with people who came and do not want to leave? What to do with people when they go? We have no fence, no barbed wire, nothing.
We didn't want to make cells for anyone. How to behave in relation to people who no longer respect your law, but they are people, human beings? Serbia is not to blame for the fact that they have no work either in the Middle East or Africa, that there is a war going on there. Serbia is guilty less than others, but it may happen that Europe closes completely on the borders with Serbia, and they (the migrants) will continue to break through the borders of Greece and Macedonia, Macedonia and Serbia.
I think that we are no longer able to accept more than 3 thousands of migrants on our territory who do not know where to go. And we would not know what to do with them. And therefore, wanting to warn all the calls, we approved the decision, so that the military police could participate in guarding the border if necessary. Only as an aid to the Interior Ministry, our police.
I am not very optimistic that it will ever stop. The whole continent has moved tectonically. To cause wars in five or six countries and to think that nothing would happen - it could only be someone who had unkind intentions or not enough abilities to engage in the politics of a huge country, since that policy affects almost the whole world. So we have a lot of challenges, a lot of threats.
- Now the European Union, a candidate for membership in which is Serbia, is experiencing far from the best times. What do you think is the main problem of the EU member states? Do you believe that the European Union will be able to remain in the form in which and for what it was created?
- I studied the history and structure of the European Union. The EU has deviated from the principle that it is a collection of states. Brussels imposed itself as the capital of a new, supranational state. They say: "If you are in the EU, you must." You can't say, but you must. Should that, should this ...
In Brussels, there are people who have huge salaries, and they no longer worry about their countries. At all. They are more worried about where they will be after the end of their mandate - with what next mandate in the European Union. And not to go far from Brussels.
I can not say what will happen to the European Union. This is probably the EU knows. But the euro crisis has not hit the EU as much as sanctions against Russia. Here the biggest problem, especially for small EU member states. If you forbid me to export your goods, and send to competition in the European market with European countries that are more developed, which are three or four years cheaper to supply their products, then we are not equal in rights. Then the EU is someone's mother, and someone - a stepmother. I would sincerely like the EU to come out of this crisis, but this implies an immediate conversation with Russia.
I know that Russia is in a crisis because of the sanctions that the EU imposed. I am not one of those who said in Serbia: “Sanctions can’t do anything to us, the world economic crisis will not do anything to us”. I know how painful it is for citizens. Maybe we, politicians, are not hampered by conflicts or sanctions; we live well, as we have always lived. Meanwhile, when people decrease salaries, when people do not have work, when they cannot sell their goods, then there is a crisis. When the national currency begins to fall, you know for sure that the country is in crisis.
And this is a turning point. I think that several EU member states will oppose the automatic extension of sanctions against Russia, since these are sanctions against their peoples. You can never impose sanctions on the one with whom you have the largest turnover. Where, with whom, will you carry out the new trade? In which country, on which continent, in which union? And this relief, defrosting relations between Europe and Russia would directly help calm the situation in the world. I think the United States could not have anything against living in peace in Europe, that there was growth, to work as they once did. And if they have, let them tell us.
- As for another problem - the situation in the Middle East, what do you think should be done to consolidate the forces of the world community in the fight against international terrorism? And how do you assess the role of Russia in operations in Syria?
“If you had asked about this a few days ago, I would not know if it would ever come to a shift, but the agreement that Lavrov and Kerry reached is a very encouraging symbol, if both of them and others will be persistent prevent Turkey from behaving like the hostess she was in the Middle East almost all the time, remaining in the shadows.
If Russia did not intervene in the situation in Syria, then Syria would be expected today by the same fate as those countries before it that did not have protection that did not have support
If Russia did not intervene in the situation in Syria, then Syria would be expected today to have the same fate as those countries before it that did not have protection that did not have support. If she had not intervened, Syria would today be a country of the so-called "Islamic state" (terrorist group prohibited in the Russian Federation), which, perhaps, even someone would recognize in the world.
You know, when Kosovo terrorism led to the creation of a quasi-state, which both progressive and fundamentalist countries of the world began to recognize, I knew that the time would come when someone in the Islamic world would understand that using a machine gun, you can create a state for yourself. Ignoring international and humanitarian law, human rights, killing, becoming a great danger, protecting some boundaries of the territory that they have created, they will receive someone’s support.
I think Russia should be militarily involved in the defense of Syria at the request of Syria, since it is a defense against terrorism. And it is better to defend against it in Syria than in Russia. This is a doctrine that guides the United States when they go to fight against terrorism in the world. This is a good doctrine, but you need to cooperate. And I think that whoever organizes, should sit down and watch together satellite images, maps alone, choose one target. Could fly for a couple - Russian and American bombers.
- You have already partially answered my next question, but still I would like to clarify. After Russia introduced retaliatory sanctions on food from EU countries, the supply of Serbian food products to our market has increased. In your opinion, to what extent did Serbia manage to use the opportunity it had to occupy its niche in the Russian market?
- I think that failed to end. This is because, apart from the cultivation of vegetables and fruits, as a result of privatization, the food industry in Serbia has largely passed into the hands of foreigners. Our dairy industry has almost completely passed into the hands of foreigners. They need to explain to Russian partners in detail, to prove that this is our production, that this is our milk. Here we still have problems, and we will work on this with Russia.
Serbia was supposed to be an agrarian country. Serbia after World War II entered into industrialization. Now we should turn back to the ground. I do not know if there is this problem in Russia. We have weaned our children from the village, our children left for the cities, looking for a better life. It happens that they are interrupted in cities, perform temporary work, sometimes physical, but they do not return to the village to their father and mother in order to work the land there. So you can see very often with us a 40-year-old tractor and in it an 80-year-old man who is going to process some arable land. And his son, daughter, daughter-in-law somehow survive in the city, although they could earn more here. Serbia should invest much more (in this area). And I think that there should be Russian investments in the Serbian food industry. Need 100 thousand tons of meat? Then I invest in money, and you return it with meat, since I need it for our market, for our people. Here you can consider the way of investing in Serbian production.
Russian partners, large retail chains could invest directly in meat production, fruit production and processing. We can least earn money by simply selling plums and apples. We can earn more on juice, on fruit processing products. And here there are chances to somehow tie our youth to the village. They may even live in the city, but come for 5-10 km. This is not Russia to go 500 km to another city.
- If we talk about products, I can not ask about the national cuisine. In Russia, more and more Serbian restaurants are opening now, and more and more of our tourists come here to Serbia. What do you recommend to try? What is your favorite Serbian dish?
- It all depends on whether it is a homemade dinner or a dish for a restaurant. Since what we eat here most often at home, we never eat in a restaurant. At home, they eat soup, various types of broth, beans, cabbage rolls, stuffed zucchini, mashed potatoes, and in the restaurant they eat meat: kebabs, kevapchichi, pleskavitsy. So I advise in the restaurant there are Serbian beans and leskovachsky Roshchil (grilled meat in logs). Just ask them not to be too much if they are not used to eating spicy food. Serbian national cuisine has a connection with Arabic cuisine, with Turkish cuisine. But not so many seasonings, as put there in the East. Serbs eat healthy food, not counting, perhaps, the young housewives, who do not know if they cook at all.
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