Military Review

Mastering the Far Eastern Islands

34
Outstanding place in stories Russian Far Eastern expeditions are sailing on the ships of the Russian-American company to the shores of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, Russian officers fleet Nikolai Alexandrovich Khvostov and Gabriel Ivanovich Davydov. They sailed twice to Russian America, made a description of the islands of Alaid, Paramushir, Makanrushi, Onekotan and the straits between them, life and customs of the Ainu. These brave naval officers and friends were then 26 and 18 years old respectively. Admiral A. Shishkov wrote about his friends: "The light of heaven and the darkness of hell are not so different from each other." If it were not for the stupid grimace of fate, which later on kept friends in the prime of life, then, undoubtedly, one day they would have been the glory of the Russian fleet, although what fell on their lot for a short life would bring them fame and memory of their descendants. For their courage in the war with the Swedes in 1808 in the Baltic, both were presented for awards: Khvostov - to the Order of St. 4th degree George, Davydov - to the Order of sv. Vladimir 4 degree.


Unfortunately, the portrait of N.A. Tail history has not left us. The great Russian poet of Tatar origin G.R. Derzhavin wrote in the poem "In memory of Davydov and Khvostov":

"... Life is our life eternal
There is a spark, il jet;
But so it lasts forever,
Kohl blessing pours
For good deeds ...
... tails! Davydov! Be
Always glorious and you.
Between us is your memory
Like a buzz, will not pass in an instant.
Though fateful wayward
You sit down and could not
On the chariot of happiness.
But your adventures are sound,
Spirit of Cooks and Nelsons
And Newton's mind is stellar,
As Alexandrov century,
The Russians will not forget. ”

So, in 1806, the trustee of the Russian-American company and diplomat N.P. Rezanov received information about the penetration of the Japanese to South Sakhalin and the islands of Kunashir and Iturup. He instructed N. A. Khvostov (commander of the Yunon vessel) and G. I. Davydov (commander of the Avos tender) to drive the invaders away from the Russian lands, destroy the Japanese ships there and capture the suitable Japanese workers. The Japanese who were not capable of labor should be allowed to move to Hokkaido, "having said that they would never visit Sakhalin as a Russian possession, as they would come for bargaining." In the case of disembarking, Russian sailors were supposed to “caress” the Sakhalin Ainu, give them cloths, dresses and other things, and the Ainu foremen would hand over the medals. Japanese stores were burned, taking all the goods from there.

Mastering the Far Eastern Islands

Ship "Juno" and tender "Avos"


October 6 1806 of the Year "Juno" anchored in Aniva Bay. The next day, part of the crew landed on the beach and visited the Ainu village, October 8 N.A. Khvostov proclaimed Sakhalin possession of Russia. Here is how the commander of the "Juno" describes this ceremony: "At 8, after midnight, I, Lieutenant Karpinsky and ship apprentice Korekin, went to the same village. Going up to the coast, they raised the military on the boat and the flags on the boat; Good Ainu met the court in a greater number and knelt when we went ashore, tried to explain with some words that we were Russians and their friends, I ordered to put a flagpole on the bank, on which both flags were raised, and commercial. Pointing to the ship, bestowed se, with handkerchiefs and various trifles, on the toena, or the village foreman, put on the best hood and medal on the Vladimir ribbon with a threefold shot from six rifles, from the ship to each volley responsibly from one cannon, it should be noted that gunfire did not fire on the slightest fear, but when they saw the fire and the sound of guns, they were horrified and bowed their heads. At the medal, he was given a sheet that says "1806 of the year of October _ of the day." The Russian frigate "Yunona" under the command of the fleet of Lieutenant Khvostov, in the sign of accepting Sakhalin Island and the inhabitants thereof, under the gracious patronage of Russian Emperor Alexander I, the head of the village lying on the eastern side of the Aniva Bay, was granted silver medal on the Vladimir ribbon. Any other ship, both Russian and foreign, we ask the foreman to recognize the Russian subject. "After that, the Russian sailors destroyed all the Japanese stores and trading posts they found on the Aniva Bay, captured four Japanese. The goods in the Japanese warehouses were partially captured (total on Yunon was shipped up to 1000 pounds of rice, up to 100 pounds of salt, as well as seine, dishes, other items), partially, at the suggestion of NA Khvostova, looted by Ainu. Then all Japanese buildings and supplies The oew forest was burned. On October 16 "Juno" left Aniva Bay.


Map of Sakhalin 1903


In 1807, N. A. Khvostov and G. I. Davydov were ordered to go to the Kuril Islands in order to expel the Japanese from there, who destroyed Russian government signs there, oppressed Russian subjects. The Russian sailors who landed on Iturup are headed by officers. N. A. Khvostov and G. I. Davydov defeated the Japanese garrison in 300 people, restored Russian state signs on this and other southern islands of the Kuril Ridge.

Anton Pavlovich Chekhov wrote in his book “Sakhalin Island”: “In 1806, in the year of Khvostov's exploits, on the bank of Aniva there was only one Japanese village, and the buildings in it were all new boards, so it was obvious that the Japanese settled here very much recently ... In all likelihood, these first Japanese colonists were fugitive criminals or who had been in a foreign land and for this were expelled from the fatherland. "

And it could not be otherwise, since the imperial law prohibiting everyone from leaving, under the threat of the death penalty, outside Japan, in these years, as in previous centuries, was still in force. Japan's self-isolation lasted from 1639 to 1868 a year.

Japan’s Foreign Minister, Takeo Miki, wrote the following on 1967 on this issue: “Japan has been divorced from the whole world for two and a half centuries. And only 1868 ended the policy of self-isolation ... The shogunate (military government) of Japan and the goal of preserving the integrity of the social political structure in 1639 actually closed the doors of Japan to the outside world ... The shogunate, fearing that going Christian has the same hidden power as a gunshot weapon, which the Europeans carried with them, declared Christianity outlaw, banned all foreigners from entering the country. An exception was made for a small handful of Dutch and Chinese merchants ... And only in 1868, when the feudal system of the Tokugawa shogunate collapsed, were the doors of Japan open. A Japanese geographer and historian Hayashi (Rin Shekheya) wrote in his essay “A Review of the Three Kingdoms” in 1786 that “there is no person in Japan who could see everything in detail (on Sakhalin) with his own eyes”. And he himself was convinced that Karafuto (Sakhalin) is nothing other than the cape of Asia. According to other sources, the Japanese considered Sakhalin a "Manzhursky island."


Japanese samurai


Nevertheless, already in 1808, a Japanese garrison appeared in Iturup and Kunashir in 1000 of Japanese soldiers. And in 1811, Kunashir was captured and spent there two years by a brave sailor, geographer and writer Vasily Mikhailovich Golovnin. In the new privileges granted to 13 of September 1821 of the Russian-American company by Emperor Alexander I, the southern cape of the island of Urup was named the extreme possession of the empire in the Kuril Islands. It is believed that this turn of events was the result of the arbitrary actions of Lieutenant N. A. Khvostov and midshipman G. I. Davydov. As we can see, from the very beginning, Russian-Japanese relations left much to be desired.

In 1846, an expedition led by Captain Gavrilov was sent to explore the mouth of the Amur. However, this expedition did not find the fairway of Amur and could not establish the island position of Sakhalin. Reporting to the tsar on the results of the expedition of Gavrilov, Chancellor Nesselrode wrote: "... The mouth of the Amur was inaccessible to seagoing ships ... Sakhalin is a peninsula." Nicholas I, having familiarized himself with the findings of the report, decided: “The question of Amur, as a useless river, to leave ...”

In 1848, Gennady Nevelskoy was appointed the captain of the Baikal transport, who, without the permission of the government, took full responsibility, examined the fairway of Amur in 1849 and found that its mouth was accessible to sea-going vessels. Between Cape Lazarev on the mainland and Cape Pogibi on Sakhalin was opened the strait, named after him. “Sakhalin is an island, the entrance to the estuary and the Amur River is possible for ships from the north and south. The age-old fallacy is positively dispersed, the truth is revealed! ”However, official St. Petersburg met this news coldly, with distrust.

A little back in the past. Here is what reported I.F. Krusenstern in 1805 year: “... In keeping with this, they continued to unfairly depict Sakhalin on the maps as an island, and to call the channel between this and the old coast the Tataria Strait. The tests we carried out on 100 miles to the north now leave no doubt that Sakhalin is a peninsula connecting the Isthmus with Tataria "(Krusenstern I.F. Journey around the world in 1803, 1804, 1805 and 1806 on the Nadezhda and Neve. Moscow: Geografiz, 1950. C. 206. Note that the campaign took place at the beginning of the 19 century. Thus, we see that even at that time, the name “Great Tataria” on the maps was relevant, just as when the great French navigator Jean-François de Gallo, the comte de Laperouse opened the strait in 1787 (wrongly, the bay) between Sakhalin and the mainland, called him Tatarsky, because he knew about this country. Yes, and the Sea of ​​Japan used to be called the Tatars, while his I.F. Krusenstern in the 1805 year is not renamed. By the way, in the same year I.F. Krusenstern gave the official name of the island - Sakhalin.


Map of Great Tataria, 1705


However, we will continue. For unauthorized actions of G.I. Nevelskoy was demoted to sailors. But later the king was forced to cancel this decision and appoint Nevelsky as the leader of the Amur expedition. Its participants are officers N.K. Boshnyak, D.I. Orlov, N.V. Rudanovsky and others did a great job of researching and developing Sakhalin. At this time, American, British, Japanese and French ships began to appear more and more often off the coast of Primorye. The danger of the seizure of these Russian lands by other countries was growing. “I had to and still will,” wrote G.I. Nevelskoy is one of two things: either, acting according to the instructions, to lose forever for Russia such important territories as the Amur and Priouri Sura regions, or to act independently, adjusting to local circumstances and disagreeing with the instructions given to me. I chose the latter. ” In 1853, the year D.I. Orlov, at the direction of Nevelsky, founded the first Russian military post, Ilinsky, on Sakhalin. Today it is called the village of Ilinsky. This post became the base for many subsequent expeditions. In the same year G.I. Nevelskoy founded a military post on the shores of Aniva Bay and called it Muravievsky. Today it is the glorious city of Korsakov. The expedition of Gennady Nevelskoy made an invaluable contribution to the development of the Far East, defended and secured Russia's rights to the Amur, Primorye and Sakhalin. This provided for Russia access to the sea at its eastern borders.

To be continued ...

Sources:
G.I. Nevelskoy. "The feats of Russian naval officers in the extreme east of Russia", M., 1947.
A.P. Chekhov. "Sakhalin island". Collected cit., M., t. 10, 1963.
B.P. Field. “Discoverers of Sakhalin”, Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, 1959.
I.A. Senchenko. “Russia will not forget them”, Y.-Sah., 1961.
Vasily Golovnin. Writings Ed. Glavsevmorput. ML, 1949.
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  1. qwert
    qwert 11 February 2016 07: 35
    -7
    It was necessary to be friends with the Japanese, and not call them macaques. And generally orient to Russia. And it was possible. But they missed the moment and Japan went under England
    1. venaya
      venaya 11 February 2016 07: 58
      +4
      Orient to Russia? This was not possible both then and now, for Japan itself is an ideal stopper cork for all of eastern Eurasia, both for Russia and China. Such a fortunate geo-strategic position of this island state, money bags of both England and the United States could not help but take too much money from such a blockage.
    2. V.ic
      V.ic 11 February 2016 10: 17
      +5
      Quote: qwert
      It was necessary to be friends with the Japanese, and not call them macaques.

      To cut out a liver from a still defeated enemy alive and eat it raw, this happened in the last 20th century and was done by the descendants of the samurai, who had allegedly been civilized for 60 years! This claims to be a worse name than "macaque".
    3. Sweles
      Sweles 11 February 2016 11: 51
      +3
      Quote: qwert
      It was necessary to be friends with the Japanese, and not call them macaques. And generally orient to Russia. And it was possible. But they missed the moment and Japan went under England


      pin_dos were very good friends, rolled out nagasaki with hiroshima, but the Japons are now the best friends of Americans ...
    4. siberalt
      siberalt 11 February 2016 14: 52
      +1
      It’s time for us to do exploration and production of rare-earth elements in the Kuril Islands, not so we will depend on China. Because the Japanese are so fighting for these islands.
    5. AK64
      AK64 11 February 2016 17: 09
      +2
      It was necessary to be friends with the Japanese, and not call them macaques. And generally orient to Russia. And it was possible. But they missed the moment and Japan went under England

      Not. It was NOT possible.
      The Japanese climbed into China, and thereby created a conflict of interest. After the Sino-Japanese War (where the Japanese, armed according to Western standards, defeated the Chinese), they were expelled from China. All the great powers and demanded departure (here's another? Who are they all?).
      From that moment on, war was only a matter of time.
    6. andrew42
      andrew42 11 February 2016 20: 04
      +4
      Japan went where she wanted to go. She left forcibly, fully feeling her weakness in front of White. Then, having caught up, in 1941 dealt to her "teachers" such a blow, the cruelty of which surpassed the destruction of the Ainu. The British, Dutch and Americans felt in full the "gratitude" of the Japanese beast, fed with Chinese blood and meat. The Japs of whites have always been hated instinctively, and there is nothing to be done about it. If the Chinese treat the white "laoi" simply with a slight contempt, considering themselves culturally superior to the long-nosed sluts, then Nippon professes a more cruel attitude. The plus article is very informative and useful.
  2. semirek
    semirek 11 February 2016 07: 49
    +6
    As our famous compatriot used to say: "the wealth of Russia-Siberia will grow"
    An excellent informative article! It can be seen from it that the authorities in the capital paid great attention to the study of these Far Eastern (Siberian) territories, despite the remoteness of these islands from the center, the government understood the importance for Russia of these lands, as outposts, on the far approaches to the mainland, which at that time they were a tasty morsel for Japanese samurai. I would like to note the brave Russian sailors, for whom the ministry of Russia was in the first place, thanks to them our country was firmly entrenched on the eastern frontiers.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 11 February 2016 07: 56
    +9
    And in 1811, on Kunashir, he was captured and spent two years there, a brave sailor, geographer and writer Vasily Mikhailovich Golovnin. Notes of the captain Golovnin’s fleet about his adventures in captivity with the Japanese in 1811, 1812 and 1813, are read in one breath ... Thank you, wonderful article ..
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. Amurets
    Amurets 11 February 2016 08: 22
    +8
    Quote: qwert
    It was necessary to be friends with the Japanese, and not call them macaques. And generally orient to Russia. And it was possible. But they missed the moment and Japan went under England

    At the time of Nevelskoy, it was impossible to make friends with the Japanese for the simple reason that in St. Petersburg they did not believe that the Amur was not lost in the sands, but flowed into the sea or a bay. K.V Nesselrode was an opponent of the annexation and exploration of the Far Eastern Territory, and only after the death of Nikolai -1 and the removal of Nesselrode from the post of Chancellor of the Russian Empire, studies of the Far Eastern territories were continued. Nesselrode interfered not only with Nevelskoy, he interfered with Vice Admiral Putyatin, Governor of Eastern Siberia Muravyov. "Captain Nevelskoy" and the dilogy "Cupid Father", "Gold Rush", Books about the development of the Far East. To the author, plus for the work done. Something new even for me. My father also collected books on the development of the Far East, unfortunately , they have not survived.
  6. alebor
    alebor 11 February 2016 10: 17
    +3
    A good article, but the phrase was very jarring: "The great Russian poet of Tatar origin G.R.Derzhavin wrote ...". What does Derzhavin's Tatar origin have to do with it? The article does not seem to be about Derzhavin and why touch upon his mythical origin?
    The origin is mythical - because, according to genealogical books, almost all Russian nobles are descendants of foreigners. Some "noble ancestors" left Prussia, some from Sweden or Germany, some from the Polish gentry, and many of the "noble" Tatar murzas. There are no purely Russians at all. It is clear that a significant number of such "genealogies" are myths invented in order to substantiate why, going deeper into the past, starting from a certain time, ancestors of some kind are no longer mentioned. Conclusion - either they were not yet noble at that time, or they were noble, but lived abroad and therefore nothing is known about them. Naturally, everyone chose the second "noble and ancient" option for themselves and derived their ancestors from noble foreigners. Even the rootless Menshikov was recorded that his ancestors were born people from Poland. Of course, there were many descendants of foreigners among the Russian nobility, but all the noble genealogies should not be taken at face value, all the same, they were largely invented in relation to the ancestors-ancestors.
    1. Mr. Pip
      Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 16: 35
      0
      Quote: alebor
      The article seems to be not about Derzhavin and why concern its mythical origin?

      Author Tatar fellow
      1. Mangel olys
        11 February 2016 17: 11
        +3
        Quote: Mr. PIP
        Author Tatar

        You are right, Ivan. Tatar I. I try to write the truth, including my head, relying on sources, and not affirm without ground.
  7. Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 11 February 2016 10: 36
    0
    The card says Tartaria, that is, the signature should be "Map of Great Tartaria", not Tartary .. Article plus, of course.
    1. Mr. Pip
      Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 17: 02
      0
      Quote: Pomoryanin
      Article plus, of course.

      Here for "Tataria" it would be better to put a minus request
      In general, I am against replacing the generally accepted term "Siberia" (a word of Tatar-Mongolian origin by the way) with the newfangled "Tartaria" - what they all want to prove by this is not clear request
      1. Mangel olys
        11 February 2016 17: 24
        +3
        Quote: Mr. PIP
        Here for "Tataria" it would be better to put a minus
        In general, I am against replacing the generally accepted term "Siberia" (a word of Tatar-Mongolian origin by the way) with the newfangled "Tartaria" - what they all want to prove by this is not clear

        Recently, I have already clarified my position on this issue:
        “Pope Innocent IV in 1234 announced a crusade against the Tatars, as“ messengers of Satan and servants of Tartarus. ”He not only wanted the liberation of the Catholic countries of Europe from the Tatars, who, by the way, did not interfere in religious affairs, but wanted to incite the Mamluks against the Golden Horde and convert the Slavs to Catholicism. Literally on all European maps, the territory of Eurasia is called exclusively Tartaria (Tartaria) and nothing else, and on the maps compiled by Philip Buach (1789), there is even Moscow Tartary (Tartarie Moscovite). Tartaria (Latin name) - this is what the Catholics called Tartary. For example, "Russian" in Latin will sound like "Rushan." So, a country united by the Tatars, up to the 18th century, and sometimes later (for example, I.F. was called by the name of his native people - Great Tartary. Well, and the Western European version is Grande Tartarie. That is why these names are on the maps of Western Europeans. "

        And this does not mean that I do not like our Fatherland, which has defended for many years.
        1. Mr. Pip
          Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 18: 14
          0
          Quote: Mangel Olys
          Recently, I have already clarified my position on this issue:

          Well, I’ll explain my:
          We are citizens of a country where, in relation to the Asian part of our Motherland, it is historically generally accepted to use the term "Siberia" (the term, I will remind you once again, is of Turkic-Mongolian origin) - what does "Catholics" have to do with it? and will we write like this in articles? request
          Quote: Mangel Olys
          "Pope Innocent IV in 1234 announced a crusade against the Tatars

          Where is the proof? The tale resembles Hitler's "sacred campaign against Bolshevism" stop
          When did the Turks and the Mongols split at all, what do you always call the Tatars the Tatars ?!
          And then let's not distinguish between the Balts and the Russians?
          Let’s write that the Russians and the Pope went on crusades against the Finno-Finns, Tatars, Mongols ?! laughing
          Quote: Mangel Olys
          So, the country united by the Tatars, up to the 18th century

          What century? The founders of the same Tobolsk in the 16th century knew about this ?! request
          And the Europeans, Napoleon for example, also probably thought that he went to the Tatars? laughing
          1. Mangel olys
            11 February 2016 19: 23
            0
            Quote: Mr. PIP
            When did the Turks and the Mongols split at all, what do you always call the Tatars the Tatars ?!

            Often, historians, contradicting themselves, cite evidence of the extermination of all Tatars by Genghis Khan, while they do not think about where so many Tatars, including wives, were surrounded by the great conqueror, and why the Chinese chroniclers referred him to the “Black Tatars”. The essence of the matter was not limited to the extermination of the Tatars, the main thing was the founding of a new Mongol dynasty - the rulers of the Tatars. It was not even a question of the dominance of a particular tribe, but of the Genghisids, who called themselves the Mongols. The very name of the tribe (but not the ethnic group Khalkha-Mongol) became the name of the new Genghisids dynasty. At the beginning of the 13th century, the Chinese often called the real Mongols of Genghis Khan hey-da - "Black Tatars", and the Onguts designated by the name bai da-da - "White Tatars". The Chinese historian Men-da Bei-lu in his work “A Full Description of the Mongol-Tatars” (1221) writes: “The current emperor Genghis, as well as all (his) generals, ministers and dignitaries are black Tatars ... As for the Tatar ruler Temojin, he is tall and stately, with a broad forehead and a long beard. The person is belligerent and strong. ” Misunderstandings in historical works stem from the confusion of the Mongols of Genghis Khan and the current Khalkha-Mongols.
            Napoleon, for example, also probably thought that he went to the Tatars?

            So these are his words about "scratch the Russian". laughing
            1. Mr. Pip
              Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 20: 49
              0
              Quote: Mangel Olys
              Chinese historian Men-da Bei-lu in his work “A Complete Description of the Mongol Tatars”

              Well, you probably did not read this work, because "Full Description of the Mongol-Tatars" is a translation from Chinese "Meng-da Bei-lu", and the author's name was presumably Zhao Hong.
              Quote: Mangel Olys
              writes: “The current emperor Chinggis, as well as all (his) generals, ministers and dignitaries are black Tatars

              Well, this is generally "no comment" - hieroglyphs are used in Chinese writing!
              Hieroglyphs DO NOT TRANSFER PHONETICS !!! hi
              They are not related to pronunciation, they are related to meaning, this is because there are historically 100500 languages ​​in China, and writing is common!
              Quote: Mangel Olys
              Often historians, contradicting themselves

              At most, what contradictions can take place here, these are the "contradictions" of translation - but these are problems of the past - in modern academic science, no one confuses Mongol with Turks and Turks with Tatars anymore fellow
              Quote: Mangel Olys
              So these are his words about "scratch the Russian".

              1. It is not a fact that he, although what else was left for him to try to troll "having lost all the polymers" laughing
              2. If I were you, I would not say that. And the point is not even that genetic studies of our time have refuted this "statement", but the fact is that the Europeans of those years did not distinguish Tatars from Mongols or anyone else - "Tatars" for them was a symbol of dense savagery and they, being dissatisfied Russians called them "Tatars" in the "manners" of "barbarians" as a synonym.
              Best regards hi
              1. Mangel olys
                11 February 2016 20: 59
                0
                Quote: Mr. PIP
                and the author was supposedly called Zhao Hong.

                Indicate the source.
                Quote: Mr. PIP
                in modern academic science no one else confuses the Mongol with the Turks and the Turks with the Tatars

                think you're wrong
                Quote: Mr. PIP
                and the fact is that the Europeans of those years did not distinguish the Tatars from the Mongols

                so, rightly, I wrote clearly, the Mongols are a politonym, the Mongol power, the founders and subjects of the Tatars, and other peoples.
                1. Mr. Pip
                  Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 21: 25
                  0
                  Quote: Mangel Olys
                  Indicate the source.

                  Does this change anything ?! fellow
                  Although if you want, see:
                  http://baike.baidu.com/view/1031112.htm
                  This is the Chinese "Wikipedia" and the author of the work is indicated there - Zhao Gong (Zhao Hong) and there is even his portrait.
                  Do you translate yourself or do you translate? hi
                  Quote: Mangel Olys
                  think you're wrong

                  I think the same thing about your position:
                  The term "Tartar-Tataria" was used as a collective name for the territory and peoples of Siberia, mainly of Turkic-Mongolian origin in "ancient times" - nowadays it is not relevant as well as a pound and a pound, etc. hi
                  Quote: Mangel Olys
                  Mongols - a political name, the Mongol power, the founders and subjects of the Tatars and other peoples.

                  No.
                  POLYTONYM (outdated) in this case is "tartar" in the Western tradition, and "Tatar" in this case simply has a consonant sound hi
                  1. Mangel olys
                    12 February 2016 06: 18
                    0
                    Quote: Mr. PIP
                    This is the Chinese "Wikipedia" and the author of the work is indicated there - Zhao Gong (Zhao Hong) and there is even his portrait.

                    I'm glad to have his PORTRAIT smile
                    Quote: Mr. PIP
                    now not relevant, like pood and pound, etc.

                    we started talking about the 1705 card of the year yes
                    Quote: Mr. PIP
                    No.
                    POLYTONYM (outdated) in this case is "tartar" in the Western tradition, and "Tatar" in this case simply has a consonant sound

                    it turns out "NO" for the sake of "NO" hi
              2. Mangel olys
                11 February 2016 21: 18
                0
                Well, with Zhao Hong, I was not accurate, you are right.
                Next:
                "By 1221, in Northern China, the administration of the Mongolian Khan's governor, obviously, already employed people from the local population who knew the Mongolian language. These could also be people specially trained for the role of translators. So, Xu Ting, who visited North China a little later Zhao Hong, in 1235-1236, writes: "In Yanjing urban schools, in most cases, the Uyghur script is taught, as well as translation from the Tatar language. As soon as [a student] learns to translate from [this] language, [he] becomes a translator." . (A REVIEW OF THE MAIN CHINESE SOURCES ON THE HISTORY OF MONGOLIA AND CHINA XIII-XIV centuries.)
                The question is, why did you need to know the translation from Tatar, if it was necessary to translate at the headquarters of the governor of the Mongol khan?
                1. Mr. Pip
                  Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 22: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Mangel Olys
                  The question is, why did you need to know the translation from Tatar, if it was necessary to translate at the headquarters of the governor of the Mongol khan?

                  Let me explain: in this case, "incorrect translation" from Chinese.
                  Chinese writing, once again, ideographic, that is, DOES NOT TRANSFER PHONETICS. Well, in any case, in general, and in our understanding wassat
                  That is, if the word "mountain" (figuratively) in various Chinese languages ​​sounds like "there" "hun" "ken" "wen" "wuyan", then the hieroglyph for the mountain will sound like "Tao", or rather it does not sound at all will not be - this is his modern "transcription" wassat
                  And if with modern Chinese everything is even more or less clear, then the reconstruction of the phonology of the ancient Chinese language is generally absent - that is, reading "your text" in ancient Chinese, we can translate it into ours, but we cannot say how it sounded in Chinese!
                  Accordingly, the question (rhetorical), on what basis N. Ts. Munkuev uses the term "Tatars" in translation (which you quote) wassat ????????
                  1. Mangel olys
                    12 February 2016 06: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Mr. PIP
                    That is, if the word "mountain" (figuratively) in various Chinese languages ​​sounds like "there" "hun" "ken" "wen" "wuyan", then the hieroglyph for the mountain will sound like "Tao", or rather it does not sound at all will not be - this is his modern "transcription"

                    Well, and also "ta-ta" or "yes-yes", which meant - TATAR wink
                    1. Mr. Pip
                      Mr. Pip 12 February 2016 12: 58
                      0
                      Quote: Mangel Olys
                      Well, and also "ta-ta" or "yes-yes", which meant - TATAR

                      That is, YES for YES? fellow
                      Where is the evidence that THIS "ta-ta" or "yes-yes" is exactly TATAR, and not TARTAR or DARDAR or DADAR request
        2. V.ic
          V.ic 11 February 2016 18: 47
          +2
          Quote: Mangel Olys
          Tartaria (Latin name) - the so-called Catholics of Tatarstan.

          Dear, why dance on the old rake? As for the correspondence "Tartaria" = "Tataria", I gave you an example of the book by Frenchman Alphonse Daudet / 19th century / "Tartarin de Tarascon" (fr. "Tartarin de Tarascon"). Since you are a fan of Turkism, then justify, if you are not will make it difficult that the hero of the work of the aforementioned A. Daudet bore exactly the name / nickname, nickname / Tatar, and not Tartarin.
          1. Mangel olys
            11 February 2016 19: 28
            +1
            Quote: V.ic
            Dear, why dance on the old rake? As for the correspondence "Tartaria" = "Tataria", I gave you an example of the book by Frenchman Alphonse Daudet / 19th century / "Tartarin de Tarascon" (fr. "Tartarin de Tarascon"). Since you are a fan of Turkism, then justify, if you are not will make it difficult that the hero of the work of the aforementioned A. Daudet bore exactly the name / nickname, nickname / Tatar, and not Tartarin.

            Dear, I, to my shame, have not yet read this book. As I find and read, I will try to justify what you ask.
            1. Yura
              Yura 11 February 2016 20: 31
              +1
              Quote: Mangel Olys
              As I find and read, I will try to justify what you ask.

              The book is excellent, it is also very fun to read it, but it and Tartaren in particular have nothing to do with what you are talking about (regarding Tartaria). This French scout Alphonse Daudet sparkles.
  8. qwert
    qwert 11 February 2016 10: 41
    -2
    Well, here they are. Then, too, minus Nikolai Zadornov. He also wrote that Russia had missed the moment when it was possible to develop cooperation with Japan.
    Quote: V.ic
    Cut the liver from a living, yet defeated enemy, and eat it raw, this happened in the last 20 century and was done by the descendants of samurai, who had allegedly civilized for 60 years!

    Did this prevent Great Britain from using Japan for its own purposes? Is it prevented to receive Japanese gold in exchange for goods? And set against Russia? Not. Politics does not pay such attention.
    Quote: venaya
    Such a fortunate geo-strategic position of this island state, money bags of both England and the USA could not help but take too much jackpot from such a block.

    Japan already in 1911 year attended to the expansion of the United States in the Pacific Ocean. If at the beginning of the century Russia had more far-sighted politicians, they would have been able to open narrow Japanese eyes to this fact even earlier.
    Here I see only one problem. How to maneuver was between China and Japan in order to have them in the allies and performers of Russian interests
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 11 February 2016 14: 13
      +2
      Quote: qwert
      Well, here they are. Then, too, minus Nikolai Zadornov. He also wrote that Russia had missed the moment when it was possible to develop cooperation with Japan.

      They’ve nominated! So they read and respect! It’s necessary to be proud that your opinion does not coincide with the generally accepted one. I do not pay attention to minuses. They are put by someone who can’t find arguments in the dispute. I put minuses only when they troll or carry stubborn nonsense. And it’s just that they argue, they read, they don’t agree, but they can’t give their reasons. Don’t be offended. And your thoughts are sound, though a little controversial. By the way, Japan realized that it was used when the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905 was concluded. Japan is practically nothing of I didn’t get what I wanted. The Americans and the British allowed Japan only Russian territories. The territory of China, which Japan was aiming for, did not receive it.
      1. V.ic
        V.ic 11 February 2016 18: 51
        0
        Quote: Amurets
        . The territory of China, which Japan has set its sights on, has not received it.

        Excuse me, dear, what about Port Arthur?
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 12 February 2016 00: 12
          +1
          Quote: V.ic
          Quote: Amurets
          . The territory of China, which Japan has set its sights on, has not received it.

          Excuse me, dear, what about Port Arthur?

          For some reason, Port Arthur and the Kwantung Peninsula was considered a Russian colony in Western countries and was like a thorn in the eye of the British striving to capture China. to Japan. Under pressure from Germany, France and Russia, Port Arthur was returned to China. After a series of negotiations November 1895-March 1897, Port Arthur was leased for a period of 1898 years. After the Russo-Japanese War, according to the Portsmouth Treaty, all rights of "RENT" on the Kwantung Peninsula were transferred to Japan. This topic is very large. I just gave the facts
  9. triglav
    triglav 11 February 2016 11: 58
    +2
    Glory to the discoverers! We won’t give up the Kuril Islands!
  10. Balagan
    Balagan 11 February 2016 19: 50
    +1
    Good article. Only not Tataria, but Tartaria, in fact Nikolaas Witsen in 1705, and so she signed it on the attached map. True, another amused me. Witsen is known as Nikolaas, but look carefully at the map - Nicolai Witsen)))
    And for the part of the first European to see the islands. It was probably de Vries in 1643 when he was looking for the Silver Islands.
    Frederic de Wit in 1680, put a piece of Sakhalin and the edge of the Kuril Islands on his map, however ...
    PS Oh, something the second card is not inserted, now I’ll add another post.
  11. Balagan
    Balagan 11 February 2016 19: 57
    0
    There is one more card. In the Internet, I saw that it was dated to the 1700th year. I don’t know who the author is. Hands have not yet reached her. It already has the island of Sangalien over Japan. True, the year 1700 is in doubt. The city of Furdan was painted there in Primorye (this is the current Ussuriysk), it is believed that the ruins of this city were examined and mapped by the French in 1709.
    It must be assumed that our sailors knew where to go and where to look.
    By the way, the map shows that Siberia and the current Russian Far East, well, have no relation whatsoever to China, unlike Korea.
    Truth and Central Asia then did not belong to Russia. Maybe the color here is not what we're used to today.
  12. semirek
    semirek 11 February 2016 20: 01
    0
    An interesting discussion, by the way the first city founded by the Russians in Siberia-Tara, on the Irtysh: Tatars-Tars-Tartars, in the Omsk region there are still distant regions where the real native Siberian Tatars live, having nothing to do with the Volga.
    About Japan - we somehow forgot the Goncharovsky voyage on the frigate "Pallada", everything is described there about Japan of those years, about Putyatin, about the journey from the far east to Yakutsk, then down the Lena on a sleigh to Irkutsk - in general, an interesting book.
    1. Mangel olys
      11 February 2016 20: 50
      0
      Quote: semirek
      real indigenous Siberian Tatars, having nothing to do with the Volga.

      And why do they understand each other when they speak among themselves in their native language?
      1. Mr. Pip
        Mr. Pip 11 February 2016 21: 28
        0
        Quote: Mangel Olys
        And why do they understand each other when they speak among themselves in their native language?

        Yeah, the Russians also understand the Pole and the Bulgarians - one language group of one language family - and the peoples are different! fellow
        1. Mangel olys
          12 February 2016 06: 27
          0
          Quote: Mr. PIP
          Yeah, the Russians also understand the Pole and the Bulgarians - one language group of one language family - and the peoples are different!

          Ha, Bulgarian Russian or Polish Russian laughing, well, just like the Siberian Tatars with their state good
          1. Mr. Pip
            Mr. Pip 12 February 2016 12: 56
            0
            Quote: Mangel Olys
            well, just like the Siberian Tatars with their state

            Are you talking about the Siberian Khanate? Well, so it was formed as a result of the collapse of the MONGOLIAN EMPIRE request
  13. Grishka cat
    Grishka cat 11 February 2016 21: 31
    0
    Actually, the toponymy of the Tatar was understood as something common, Muslim: the Tatars were called not only Tatars as such, but also Azerbaijanis and other peoples of Asia and the Caucasus.
  14. bbss
    bbss 12 February 2016 01: 44
    0
    The activities of Khvostov and Denisov were assessed ambiguously. Golovnin had a different opinion about them.
  15. Pitot
    Pitot 12 February 2016 02: 21
    0
    Yeah. Previously, our ancestors mastered the Earth. And now, for example, in Kamchatka, conditions are created and partially created that people flee from here, because it’s not easy to live - they raise utility bills several times a year (not always), it’s problematic to go on vacation with the cost of plane tickets for one person reaches 70 (sometimes more). There are all sorts of programs when they sell cheap tickets .... but the cancellation has not been canceled ..... 000 benzis - 92 per liter today. And you say wealth. Merge DV, cook for someone .....