The Trojan War and its reconstruction (seventh part) - ending

At the end of the topic related to the reconstruction of the bronze blade weaponsI would like to insert materials from two British gunsmiths at once. Already known to visitors to the VO website, Neil Barridge and another interesting master, Dave Chapman, owner of the Bronze Age Foundry, gunsmith and sculptor. He lives in Wales, where he has a big house with a workshop and a glass "studio". Like Neil, he conducts seminars for all comers whom he invites to his weekend. The number of places is limited - 12, but there is always the possibility to book a place in advance via the Internet. And there you can see a lot of things, learn a lot and even cast a sword or a dagger.

Such is the business and "enlightenment" at the same time. Well, the Nile lives in Cornwall near the coast, and right there he has an alley of menhirs and ancient burial mounds.

Menhirs near the house of Neil Barridge. Away fluffy English sheep. The weather is cold there now and the sky is overcast. Just in September, he finished another seminar.

And these are two barrows of ancient leaders. Inevitably, in such places you will become engaged in antiquities.

The house where swords are made. Dave Chapman's workshop.

As already noted, the goal of both masters is not only to make a profit, but also to make as many copies of ancient articles as possible. For example, he could not make the ancient Egyptian sword for a long time only because ... there was no time to make an exact stone mold for casting! The original is in the British Museum, but copies of it ... copies can be bought, and the composition in bronze is no different from that of the Egyptian.

The very khopesh.

It is clear that not everyone can afford such “products” and for the needs of “cheap” tourists, Nil makes such knives, and they are also copies of real finds.

Small knife

A bigger knife. Below is what they found and at the top is what this find has become.

But this gold record was found in the same place near Stone Hope, and once it decorated the leader's chest!

Neil notes that working on blades is one thing, but working on the manufacture of handles is no less important. For example, if a sword from Greece is being reconstructed, then it is desirable to make it from that tree that was growing there at that time. Here is a type B sword with an olive-tree grip.

B type sword with olive wood handle.

Without a doubt, on swords, in which the handles had sides, the lining could be not only of wood, but also of bone. Bone - the material for this is convenient and well processed.

G2 sword handle with bone linings.

But, of course, the most pleasant thing is when the handle was one with the blade. Such all-metal swords are known throughout Europe and belong to the culture of the “burial urn fields”.

Two swords of the culture of the “burial urn fields” made by Neil for the university in Bergen, Norway.

An all-metal sword and its hilt for a museum in Vitlusk, Sweden.

The belonging of one or another artifact to the same culture and time is easy to check when comparing them. Here we have a sword like G2, and at the top is a spear tip of the same time. Their belonging to the same culture is obvious.

"The tip of the spear from Selburn" sword G2 clearly made in the same style.

But the lining of ordinary wood is not easy to do. Especially gently need to rivet them, so as not to break the wooden lining.

The color of fresh wood differs from “used”, therefore it is desirable to make it a little old.

Handle after finishing antique.

Bronze razor late bronze, diameter 10, see. Surprisingly, but such a shave.

And of course, swords are unthinkable without a scabbard and sling ...

Well, Dave V. Chapman reports that he is engaged in making copies of artifacts from 1995, and regularly conducts courses for everyone. You have already seen the house where he does this, and here are the prices: from 26 to 27 September 2015, cost £ 245, and from 1 to 4 October 2015 - £ 385. Casting products is carried out on investment cast wax. All that is necessary master will teach you. And as you can see, the works of these two masters are highly valued. After all, professors from both British and foreign universities inspect them after they fulfill the order, and they are picky and very meticulous people (I judge this from personal experience with the Nottingham University Professor of Medieval Studies, D. Nicholas), and they would not miss the hack. And I especially liked that Khopesh Neil cast into stone form, which he himself cut in stone, although he could cast them into the clay mold using the “lost form” method.

One of Dave Chapman's Blades

Blade mounted on the handle

The scheme of Dave Chapman clearly shows how the heel of the blade was riveted in a wooden handle using rivets.

The author thanks Dave W. Chapman ([email protected]) for providing information and photos, and also to Neil Burridge for his photo and very interesting information (www.bronze-age-swords.com).

Comments

[cth; fyn]

In principle, I didn’t have any difficulty when I riveted wooden cheeks to a machete, which I made by the way, maybe my hands just grow out of my shoulders))) and yes, a machete is a cx tool.
By the way, it’s not entirely clear why the knife was made like that, it would be much more reliable to make it from one strip and the handle and blade and the cheeks of the lining, the only explanation is material saving.

[kalibr]

So they began to do later. All early samples are like that!

[cth; fyn]

Perhaps later copper production increased, or did they see the obvious.

[abrakadabre]

Especially if riveting is not iron rivets. If metal is lighter, then riveting it in a tree is safer.

[War and Peace]

Fig. 41. The combat knife. The ring on the handle under the top cap was intended for fastening the lanyard - a special loop made of leather into which the hand was threaded. This indicates the combat purpose of the bronze knife, since the lanyards have always been a weapon, not household items. Karasuk culture. The era of late bronze. A random find near the village. Argolic. Tuva. By L.R. Kyzlasov

Fig. 42. A fragment of the bronze hilt of the sword with a hollow mushroom-shaped top. Both sides of the handle are ornamented. Karasuk culture. The era of late bronze. TO KM

Fig. 43. The bronze sword of the Karasuk type. As is often the case with long-blade weapons, the blade and handle are damaged. The sides of the handle are decorated with an ornament, the basis of which is a zigzag. Found during excavations in the Camp Garden of Tomsk. TOKM

the bronze sword is split in two places, on the hilt and blade - this says that the bronze sword was fragile. It is a pity that its weight and chemical composition are not known. it is likely that the bronze was arsenic rather than tin. The truth is not the fact that even tin bronze would have the strength of steel ...

http://history.novosibdom.ru/node/38

[kalibr]

There is a remarkable monograph on the subject of antiquities of Siberia: Weapons and Armor. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. Auto A.I. Soloev. Edition: INFOLIO. Novochibirsk, 2003 year. It's all from there. The author of the book is the author of 8 monographs on the ancient weapons of Siberia. 20 has been digging for years in the Minusinsk basin of other places. There is simply no more meaningful (and beautiful!) Book on this topic.

[brn521]

Quote: War and Peace

lanyards have always been weapons and not household items.

I immediately recall tourist folding knives. In nature, the knife is easily lost, fly away into the grass and without a metal detector you will find figs. With axes and swords is easier, because big ones.

[abrakadabre]

But the cost of losing a sword for several seconds in battle is much higher than dropping a knife into the bushes.

[brn521]

Quote: abrakadabre

But the cost of losing a sword for several seconds in battle is much higher than dropping a knife into the bushes.

A sword stuck in someone’s ribs or broken can be beneficial to lose as quickly as possible. And captured by someone else’s hand - especially, and then pull on yourself, then you will involuntarily open. In general, the lanyards are somehow more associated with cavalry weapons - they have some subtleties of their own.

[Aljavad]

material saving.

so it was.

[ICT]

Quote: cth; fyn

wooden cheeks to the machete,

if you take for example a trimmed pine board of natural humidity and drying, then there will be no problems, but if you take a tighter pine, but from the floor rail after the dryer, you already need to be more careful

and indeed you need to take an oak tree and not bother

[kalibr]

Or olive from Cyprus or from Greece!

[cth; fyn]

Another beech is good, soft warm wood in the hand lies well, besides beeches are very common in Europe.

[marline]

Thanks for the article, as always interesting.

[Timyr]

And write about the causes of the war. And you have interesting articles, thank you.

[kalibr]

There is one reason: Paris kidnapped Menelaus Elena! And treasures at the same time ...

[marline]

By the way, there was an Amer broadcast in which ... substances were called as the causes of the Trojan war.
I don’t know what the authors smoked)))

[kalibr]

And what did our authors smoke, what do they write, that Troy was won by ... Cossacks?

[marline]

I don’t know ... I don’t read such authors. And what is the truth written?
And about the transfer ... it was just funny to hear about the war in the Bronze Age because of the control of drug trafficking, and everything in the transfer with such a serious look.
Shared, just for lulz.

[Glot]

And what is the truth written?

They write and write. And that was all in the XNUMXth century A.D. Yes, and not yet write sometimes.

[Aljavad]

And what did our authors smoke, what do they write, that Troy was won by ... Cossacks?

And Adam was kaaaaaak! And Eve, like water, was taken to the Turks to the fullest ...

[ICT]

Quote: timyr

And write about the causes of the war.

The Olympians decided to expand the borders of possessions, and the Trojans prevented them

[marline]

No, you confuse ... It was a natural civil war ...
The same Apollo (helped the Trojans) is a natural Olympian, though of those who came in large numbers

[marline]

And what is surprising in a bronze razor? As far as I remember, razors or the same surgical instruments were made of bronze in later times, around the dawn of the Roman Empire.

[kalibr]

The form! I personally imagined her differently. He himself used to shave with a "straight razor" Solingen of a completely different shape.

[marline]

Yes, that's for sure ... the shape is somewhat unusual ... Probably, this shape comes from the early stone and razors from shells, but this is IMHO.
PS at the very home of Solingen, though she is scared to shave, but the thing ...

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

And what is surprising in a bronze razor? As far as I remember, razors or the same surgical instruments were made of bronze in later times, around the dawn of the Roman Empire.

Yes, they found knives in Pompeii, scalpels, but cut one body tissue, and the hair under the root is another. It's impossible. But how to check if the ancient finds were knives or razors? eg
Novosibirsk Museum of Local Lore, it is written "knife of the Bronze Age ..." it would seem very similar to a razor, but how to check? A museum exhibit for the experiment will not be given, and the tradition is not interested in a natural experiment, their job is to comb the tongue about Julius Caesar, how he was "clean-shaven".

[War and Peace]

This experiment was a logical continuation of the fun of youth with cold weapons. The goal is to determine the practicality of shaving with a bronze razor. For the source material, a bronze ribbon 0,6mm was taken, presumably of the BrOF brand, the state of the material is solid (metal scissors cut the strip with effort), springy for bending http://savepic.ru/3919060.htm> Berm blank, cut out the contours of the future razor and make stiffeners.http: //savepic.ru/3920084.htm>

We round off the edges of the blade, remove the burrs, manually on the emery wheel, remove the cutting edge. To get closer to the real process of sharpening razors, we edit the cutting edge on a rare whetstone inherited from my grandfather. /3913940.htm> To determine the quality of edits without violence to his own beard, my grandfather used the following method. A well-tucked razor blade should easily cut newsprint, placed edge up, keeping the sheet in weight at one point. In the photo, one of the grandfather's razors is being tested for performance. Http://savepic.ru/3901652.htm>

The following happened with a bronze razor. The lapping on the belt did not give the expected effect. After long tests, it was possible to bring the sharpness to the state of a well-sharpened steel knife. The razor still cut the paper, but badly, tearing paper fibers along the notch line. And sat down after 4-6 incisions. An attempt to shave coarse hair on his own forearm did not produce a positive effect - not a single hair fell in an unequal battle. Moreover, shaving was carried out on both dry and wet.

Conclusion. It is impossible to shave with such a razor in the modern understanding of the process. Razor potential exists, but the hardness of the metal is not enough to maintain the necessary sharpening sharpness. The term "modern" means a daily (every other day) relatively comfortable shave.

PS: If the barber would have shaved Yurku Caesar with such a razor, then as a reward for his labors, the executioner would have shaved his neck with a bronze ax.


The second part of the experiment logically followed from the general conclusion about the insufficient hardness of the metal. Therefore, before removing the new cutting edge, the razor blade was carefully beaten off in accordance with the property of copper and its alloys - to harden during forging. After straightening and finishing the blade on the belt with GOI paste, the shaving properties improved. The razor began to cut paper much more confidently. An attempt to shave the coarse forearm hair was relatively successful - the hair was shaved off, rather poorly, but still shaved off. An attempt to shave two days of stubble and coarse hair was unsuccessful http://savepic.ru/3883220.htm>

Conclusion. Forged bronze razor is impossible to shave in the modern understanding of this process. But ... coarse hair longer than 10mm to shave, perhaps. The process itself is unproductive due to the low hardness of bronze

PS 1: The barber Yurka Caesar had the opportunity to shave the emperor and get for his work the sisters placed on the price list if the hair of the imperial beard was long and tender. If not - with an ax around the neck.

PS 2: The bronze razor reinforced with forging is similar in its cutting properties to unhardened steel. An ordinary two-hundredth nail riveted into a strip, followed by sharpening to a razor state, will have the same cutting properties as a bronze razor. At one time, he experimented with how different types of steel hold razor sharpening, but he did not know why. Thirty years later came in handy; apparently any knowledge does not disappear in vain ....

http://chronologia.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=264&topic_id=58974&mes
g_id = 58974 & listing_type = search

[War and Peace]

Well, I’ll add on my own that another myth of traditional history has been debunked. Julius Caesar was not destined to shave with a bronze razor. Well, what does this mean? Because perhaps THOUSANDS of sculptures like "antiquity" are actually forgeries aimed precisely at DISTORTING the true history. And the TRUE STORY was completely different, but what about the beards of the "Roman emperors" then so ...

In reality, medieval Roman emperors wore broad beards:

[marline]

Class !!! One not very successful experiment, with an inappropriate result, and a conclusion that cancels the story, is it not too fast? ;)
In the time of the emperors there were steel razors. And Guy Julius Caesar shaved, most likely steel. And no one argues that the Roman emperors also wore beards (Ph.D. Marcus Aurelius, Septimius Severus). You are right, Alexander Makedonskov wanted to write (in his time bronze razors were common).
And also, why is there Caesar, Octavian and Mark Anthony with crosses in your hands in your drawing? ..;)

[kalibr]

Because they were portrayed by artists of a later time. That's all!

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

lass !!! One not very successful experiment, with an inappropriate result, and a conclusion that cancels the story, is it not too fast? ;)

why is it "not too lucky"? when completely successful, for example, now they do not make any knives or razors from bronze, but why did you wonder? Not because bronze is more expensive than good steel, for example, household valves, faucets, faucets for pipes are now completely made of bronze and brass and the cost is not critical at all. In short, the answer is one bronze in RAZOR is not good ...

[marline]

The experiment showed that you can still make an inferior razor ...
They don’t do it, simply because no one needs bad bronze razors.

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

They don’t do it, simply because no one needs bad bronze razors.

the main word is BAD ...

[marline]

yeah ... you can’t argue with that ...

[abrakadabre]

Today, in the presence of modern steels. Yes. But not at the moment - 3-4 thousand years ago. Stop already measuring everything with modernity.

[kalibr]

Not good when there is steel, and when it was not good. And when there was no bronze cut with flint knives.

[Riv]

Well, let's say you can sharpen bronze to any sharpness. The self-hardening of the blade itself is more likely harmful in this case, because it leads to the formation of microcracks, and they will make shaving difficult.
The experimenter's mistake is most likely that he did not bring to mind exactly the shape of the blade. Those who wish google about razor sharpening.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

The experimenter's mistake is most likely that he did not bring to mind exactly the shape of the blade. Those who wish google about razor sharpening.

Well yes, there is one. Let us take quite serious sources, in which, in addition to pictures, sections are given. Here, for example, French fossil knives.
The second instance is clearly made under the razor. Another thing is that not every material can withstand bringing to such a format. For example, roofing iron will begin to curl into a tube when sharpening, not to mention shaving. And figs will figure it out what kind of bronze the experimenter had.

[kalibr]

Julius Caesar was not destined to shave with a bronze razor, since then iron was already in use. Iron ones were gladiuses, mahairas, pilums (tips) and razors!

[Turkir]

Julius Caesar was not destined to shave with a bronze razor since then there were already iron

I was also surprised - what about the Bronze Age and Kai Julius Caesar? 100-44 BC

[abrakadabre]

Because the opponent so wants. And the real story here is not important a bit

[kalibr]

This is just to somehow somehow ... be!

[War and Peace]

Quote: kalibr

Julius Caesar was not destined to shave with a bronze razor, since then iron was already in use. Iron ones were gladiuses, mahairas, pilums (tips) and razors!

inattentively read the experiment. Iron was discovered in the 3rd century BC. but you won’t make a razor out of iron, you need STEEL, but steel was opened much later. By the way, even Caesar reached us with images (sculptures, bas-reliefs) that were a bulk of all Roman aristocrats who were precisely shaved ...

[marline]

Read carefully ... Bronze razors (namely Razors) archaeologists date to about 200 BC After 200 razors, none at all. Most likely they were made of steel and they simply did not survive / went for remelting.

[abrakadabre]

Sheer nonsense. The first iron products were known more than a thousand years earlier.
At the time of the Greco-Persian wars, iron in the region was already distributed quite universally. Even in rather backward peripheral places.

[War and Peace]

Quote: abrakadabre

Sheer nonsense. The first iron products were known more than a thousand years earlier.

you don’t even know traditional history ...

[marline]

Of course, it’s been common for 1000 years already ... But the technological processes were not established, the grooms, blaucophenes and blast furnaces are unknown and the smelting was done in cheese-producing furnaces, so the real amount of iron (did not even become) per capita was grams.
Only in Rome could organize normal metallurgical production (namely, organize, iron was still produced in raw-furnace furnaces). So, in Rome, production reached 1.5 kilograms per person per year, and still this was not enough.
So it is not surprising that other metals were used, in particular bronze, in production, I do not see.
In the end, as I wrote above, there are archaeological finds of such products until the dawn of the Roman Empire and the internet is full of information about this.

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

Of course, it has been common for 1000 years

officially the Bronze Age ended in 3c.d. otherwise your words are your speculations. If you ask how you know this, then you cannot answer ...

[marline]

Quote: war and peace

officially the Bronze Age ended in 3c.d. otherwise your words are your speculations. If you ask how you know this, then you cannot answer ...

Do not invent. The Bronze Age officially ended in the 11th century. BC. Surgical articles made of bronze by archaeologists date back to the 1st century AD (for example, in the Crimea, in Pompeii). The deadline for finding bronze razors is 2 century BC.
The Iron Age dates from the 11th century. BC. until 340 BC

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

Quote: war and peace

officially the Bronze Age ended in 3c.d. otherwise your words are your speculations. If you ask how you know this, then you cannot answer ...

Do not invent. The Bronze Age officially ended in the 11th century. BC. Surgical articles made of bronze by archaeologists date back to the 1st century AD (for example, in the Crimea, in Pompeii). The deadline for finding bronze razors is 2 century BC.
The Iron Age dates from the 11th century. BC. until 340 BC

In short, in order to shave, you need a STEEL RAZOR, and steel is 7-8v AD

[marline]

Quote: war and peace

In short, in order to shave, you need a STEEL RAZOR, and steel is 7-8v AD

To begin with, as the logic suggests: In order to shave you need RAZOR. And, frankly, to all ... what it will be made of: bronze, iron, steel or glass, and maybe silicon, if it has a sharp edge, and you have a desire to shave, you will definitely shave. (although there are other methods of hair removal)
PS some of your dates are interesting. Where do you get them from?

[kalibr]

From Fomenko and his ilk! Where else?

[War and Peace]

Quote: merlin

Quote: war and peace

officially the Bronze Age ended in 3c.d. otherwise your words are your speculations. If you ask how you know this, then you cannot answer ...

Do not invent. The Bronze Age officially ended in the 11th century. BC. Surgical articles made of bronze by archaeologists date back to the 1st century AD (for example, in the Crimea, in Pompeii). The deadline for finding bronze razors is 2 century BC.
The Iron Age dates from the 11th century. BC. until 340 BC

In short, in order to shave, you need a STEEL RAZOR, and steel is 7-8v AD

[brn521]

Quote: War and Peace

in order to shave you need a STEEL Razor, and steel is 7-8v AD

However, I gave an example here - a French fossil bronze knife with a razor-like blade.

[kalibr]

This makes no sense! Already Homer, and this 7 century wrote about forging iron and you, by the way, also wrote about it ... And here 3-s? From where Already the culture of burial urns in Europe had iron swords ...

[Riv]

Why can't you do it? First: you can do it. Pure iron without impurities sharpens perfectly. Checked. And secondly: iron is only called iron. In fact, this is steel.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Screaming iron is just called iron. In fact, this is steel.

Flashy iron is called ... "Flashy iron" is a mixture of iron and cementite.
Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon ...
Feel the difference? there is a mixture, there is an alloy; cementite there, carbon here.
Here, comrade "techie" a question for you - what was it for forging?

[Riv]

Wow, what knowledge! I have to disappoint you: cementite is neither steel nor carbon. This is iron carbide.
Forced to state that you do not understand nichrome in metal science. It is sad.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Wow, what knowledge! I have to disappoint you: cementite is neither steel nor carbon. This is iron carbide.
Forced to state that you do not understand nichrome in metal science. It is sad.

I have to disappoint you, you cannot read ... This is sad ...
Damn the education system.

[Riv]

Anything you could object? The drain is counted a second time.

So be it: I will explain the topic. In the critical iron, the carbon content is hundredths of a percent. The fact is that the melting point of steel and cast iron is the lower, the higher the carbon content in them. Cast iron melts from 1100 degrees, pure iron from 1500. That is, if the coke is burned with excess coal, then the reduced iron will dissolve the carbon and drain in the form of cast iron in a furnace. Then this bar only throw away. And cementite in the crit is all the more not formed. In frozen cast iron - easily.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Anything you could object? The drain is counted a second time.

In your wet fantasies, perhaps :)

Quote: Riv

In the critical iron, the carbon content is hundredths of a percent. The fact is that the melting point of steel and cast iron is the lower, the higher the carbon content in them. Cast iron melts from 1100 degrees, pure iron from 1500. That is, if the coke is burned with excess coal, then the reduced iron will dissolve the carbon and drain in the form of cast iron in a furnace. Then this bar only throw away. And cementite in the crit is all the more not formed. In frozen cast iron - easily.

Cheese oven, chem. critical iron recovery formula:
4Fe (2) O (3) + 14C = 2Fe (3) C + 2Fe + 12CO
And where is cementite here ??? Yeah, that's bold ...
As I said: 1. Learn to read; 2. Learn the materiel.
I don’t ask about forging, I see that I don’t know

[Riv]

Have you come up with this formula yourself now? The source is in the studio. I was wondering who the author of the textbook is.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Have you come up with this formula yourself now?

You come up mainly with fairy tales.

Quote: Riv

The source is in the studio. I was wondering who the author of the textbook is.

And you do not be lazy and look ...

[marline]

Quote: Riv

The source is in the studio. I was wondering who the author of the textbook is.

Chemistry textbook :). And I watched in Kazakov "Welding and cutting metals"

[Riv]

Well what can I say? :) I will probably disappoint you again. The formula you cited is wrong. Even if Kazakov has it (forgive me for my laziness) - you need to have your own knowledge. Carbon monoxide reduces iron without any carbides. First: in your proposed reaction, part of the iron remains in oxidized form. This is out of the question. Carbon cannot oxidize a substance that is already oxidized with oxygen. That is, CO must first reduce the oxide to a metal so that this metal can then react with carbon. But iron carbide does not form upon contact of the metal with coal. That is life.

Secondly, iron has such a fun property: from oxides and salts it is reduced in alpha form. And this allotropic modification practically does not dissolve carbon. Ferrite is obtained, not cementite.

That's why the correct, suitable carbon matrix contains very little and is perfectly forged even in the cold state (and if cementite had been present in it, this would have been excluded). But if the charge is overheated, the resulting iron melts, and in the molten state it dissolves carbon perfectly. Cast iron is formed, at which the melting temperature is even lower, and the fluidity is very good and it flows to the bottom. It freezes there. If there is a lot of carbon, we have cementite.

Do you understand the process? Do I need to continue the educational program? We will very soon reach the stage of manufacturing weapons.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

But if the charge is overheated, the resulting iron melts,

It will not melt, but at temperatures above 910 degrees it will turn into austenite, which, unlike ferrite, can store up to 2% carbon. Upon cooling, this matter will decompose into ferrite and cementite.

[Riv]

As already got stupid kammenty people not at all understanding a question ...

Austenite is not a modification of iron. Iron, in which there is practically no carbon, can’t get into it like this and move on. Alpha-modification goes into gamma and now gamma-iron can dissolve carbon in itself. And just the solid solution of carbon in iron is called austenite.
Now ask yourself a simple question: how long does it take for the SOLID metal to "grab" 2% of the carbon?

Now the main raw material for steel production is pig iron. There is more than enough carbon in it. Extra burns out - steel is ready. But there is no excess carbon in the cry. She easily forges on cold - what austenite can be there ???

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Austenite is not a modification of iron.

In this case, you are in a clear minority in this matter. The simplest illustration is https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austenite. Definition from there: "Austenite is a high-temperature face-centered modification of iron and its alloys."
Explanation from the same "In pure iron, it exists in the temperature range 910-1401 ° C; in carbon steels, austenite exists at temperatures not lower than 723 ° C."
Well, the well-known diagram.
So you will have to prove that iron can not turn into austenite when heated. Be sure to refer to sources.

Quote: Riv

Now ask yourself a simple question: how long does it take for the SOLID metal to "grab" 2% of the carbon?

And how long does it take for solid ore to recover in iron?

Quote: Riv

there is no excess carbon in the kritz. She easily forges on the cold - what kind of austenite can there be ???

Do you propose to leave humanity for the entire period of raw-metal metallurgy without steel? It's cruel, at least leave the tamahagan to the Japanese .

[marline]

And again, plus you.

[marline]

Quote: brn521

It will not melt, but at temperatures above 910 degrees it will turn into austenite, which, unlike ferrite, can store up to 2% carbon. Upon cooling, this matter will decompose into ferrite and cementite.

Well, at least someone here is oriented in metal science. I just wrote it above)))

[Riv]

Well, yes ... It's like in a Jewish joke: "- All the same, we are three against two."
Bye guys. Wear foil caps.

[marline]

You have counted the drain.

[marline]

You have counted the drain.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Well what can I say? :) I will probably disappoint you again. The formula you cited is wrong. Even if Kazakov has it (forgive me for my laziness) - you need to have your own knowledge.

You did not disappoint me in the least; I did not at all doubt your laziness and dilettantism.
Kozakov has this formula, you can be sure of this. And it is correct, however, I did not doubt at all that you would assert that "the formula you quoted is wrong." Leave your teaching tone and prove to the whole world that Kozakov was wrong, if you don’t break the software, of course.
And here's the thing: it is unlikely that in "ancient" times metallurgists reached temperatures above 1200 C. At this temperature, the content of iron oxides decreases, but the iron does not become liquid, rather granular. At 723 C, as you know, ferrite transforms into austenite and carbon atoms are much easier to incorporate into the orderly rows of iron atoms. Slow cooling leads to the appearance of pearlite (a mixture of ferrite and cementite).

Quote: Riv

Do I need to continue the educational program?

My task does not include your training.

[marline]

Here is an interesting point too:

Quote: Riv

... pure iron melts from 1500 ...

Are you sure? those. maybe 1600 and 1700 and even 3000?
"Metallurgist" who does not know the melting point of iron, this is something new;)
Let me tell you: iron melts at a temperature of 1538,85 ° C; not a degree more, not a degree less.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Pure iron without impurities is perfectly sharpened.

But it does not hold a form. At small sharpening angles (razor), the blade warps from the load - in fact, we bring the part of the blade to the state of the foil, and it behaves like a foil, because the material is too soft. At large angles, the load holds, but does not hold sharpening for a long time and has greater resistance when cutting.

[brn521]

Quote: War and Peace

Well, I’ll add from myself, that another myth of traditional history is debunked. Shaving Julius Caesar with a bronze razor was not destined.

Not completely debunked. There is still the opportunity to harden and increase hardness. True, fragility will rise accordingly. But I remember once in early childhood, I turned my father a dangerous razor into a saw. Found, delighted, began to chop furniture corners. Large pieces of the blade remained in the furniture chipboard.

[War and Peace]

Quote: brn521

Quote: War and Peace

Well, I’ll add from myself, that another myth of traditional history is debunked. Shaving Julius Caesar with a bronze razor was not destined.

Not completely debunked. There is still the opportunity to harden and increase hardness. True, fragility will rise accordingly. But I remember once in early childhood, I turned my father a dangerous razor into a saw. Found, delighted, began to chop furniture corners. Large pieces of the blade remained in the furniture chipboard.

and that bronze is hardened? are you confusing anything? And what does your "father's" razor have to do with the bronze razors?

[brn521]

Quote: War and Peace

But does bronze harden? are you confusing anything?

Depends on the composition. For many bronzes there seems to be a standard layout. We make hardening - we take the temperature from the reference book. Cooling in water or air is also from there. We get a soft bronze. Then we shape - cut, beat off. Then we produce aging-tempering, keeping for a long time (usually a couple of hours) at a temperature taken from the reference book. There seems to be a range from 160 to 320 degrees for different alloys. For some bronzes, thermal strengthening is more effective than deformation hardening, for others it is not. In general, it would not hurt to try to "age" this crap made of unknown bronze.
It is bad that for the material used by the reconstructors of swords nothing sensible from the directories is selected. There is no tin-lead bronze with such a composition, but there is tin-zinc-lead, for example.

[Riv]

Oh how! .. Zinc bronze ... :))) Ancient metallurgists in surprise begin to heat a bronze crowbar from one end.

[brn521]

Quote: Riv

Oh how! .. Zinc bronze ...

In fact, if the emphasis is on heat treatment, then aluminum, beryllium and silicon. But this is because during heat treatment they change their properties most effectively.
However, I did not find anything on tin-lead bronze with the composition presented in the articles. Only some general phrases.

[marline]

Have you looked in the directories to make a bronze razor? And in the directories is there about a glass knife, or about making a knife from clay?

[marline]

Have you looked in the directories to make a bronze razor? And in the directories is there about a glass knife, or about making a knife from clay?

[War and Peace]

Quote: brn521

depends on the composition. For many bronzes there seems to be a standard layout. We make hardening - we take the temperature from the reference book. Cooling in water or air is also from there. We get a soft bronze. Then we shape - cut, beat off. Then we produce aging-tempering keeping for a long time (usually a couple of hours) at a temperature taken from the reference book. There seems to be a range from 160 to 320 degrees for different alloys. For some bronzes, thermal strengthening is more effective than deformation hardening, for others it is not. In general, it would not hurt to try to "age" this crap made of unknown bronze.
It is bad that for the material used by the reconstructors of swords nothing sensible from the directories is selected. There is no tin-lead bronze with such a composition, but there is tin-zinc-lead, for example.

you can argue as much as you like, use all sorts of boring bronzes, make hardening attempts, when hardening the bronze bronze becomes PLASTIC, it is written in the manuals that it works for springs, but again the question is whether it is possible to make a bronze razor? reference books are silent, so probably NOT ...

[kalibr]

Thanks for the photo! I'll send it to Neal, if he is interested, let's try to "pick out" the size and a good photo from the museum, and then he will make a copy. He is interested in our bronzes. Let's see what happens.

[abrakadabre]

[qoute] But how to check if the ancient finds were knives or razors? eg
Novosibirsk Museum of Local Lore, it is written "knife of the Bronze Age ..." it would seem very similar to a razor, but how to check? They will not give a museum exhibit for the experiment, and the traditionists are not interested in a natural experiment [/ quote]
For this, the reconstruction of the product is being done. With maximum authenticity. And on an authentic copy, a full-scale experiment is being done.

How do you swear "tradition" is just interested. But this requires money. Which are not always there. Especially in regional and local museums. That is why historians are friends with reenactors. And often, in their free time from work, they themselves are often among them.

[War and Peace]

Quote: abrakadabre

How do you swear "tradition" is just interested. But this requires money. Which are not always there. Especially in regional and local museums. That is why historians are friends with reenactors. And often, in their free time from work, they themselves are often among them.

and what do you need a lot of money or mind to take this old bronze knife to sharpen well and try to shave? After all, you can immediately make a discovery by saying that such a shape of a knife is a razor, but in fact this is not done ...

[brn521]

Quote: War and Peace

and what do you need a lot of money or mind to take this old bronze knife to sharpen well and try to shave?

Even if this knife is not a pity, it is still not the same metal as it was before. The properties of alloys change over time.

[kalibr]

There was a case in my local history museum. Stand with the burial of Mordovka. Middle Ages. Chalcedony disc on the chest. It is written - "Breast decoration". Who will dispute? Found on the chest! Then he looked, went to visit M.V. Gorelik and saw how he made a Sarmatian sword. Then I looked at the find in Bulgaria, in the museum of Varna ... And this disc is the pommel of the handle of a Sarmatian sword! That is, the Mordovians dug a Sarmatian grave and ... And the women employees of the museum wrote that they had seen it. So it’s not so easy not seeing, not holding the original (and a similar sample to it), but only from books often, to attribute a seemingly simple product!

[Timyr]

Quote: kalibr

There is one reason: Paris kidnapped Menelaus Elena! And treasures at the same time ...

Not seriously, I read Carpenter to an American archaeologist. Which proved that the drought was in Ahiyava. Moreover, it rained in Athens and Asia Minor, and in Mycenae and other centers of drought. The Hittites also had a drought in Anatolia. Moreover, the drought lasted a long time. Troy controlled the grain from the Black Sea. So the Achaeans had nowhere to go. The Egyptian treaty mentions the leader Aleksandush, aka Paris

[kalibr]

There are many theories, but honestly, I am unfamiliar with them. I have a narrow topic and I work within its framework, but it is simply impossible to find out about everything, or it is possible, but the knowledge will be very superficial. For a layman, this is good, this is erudition. And a specialist cannot afford it.

[Timyr]

Sorry, you write well. But this is not a theory, but actually proven. They also cited data on the Caucasian glaciers. Carpenter became interested in the fact that in the year 55 the rains deviated from their usual route and began to be interested in different directions. It can be assumed that the Bronze Age catastrophe was caused by an ever-increasing drought. As a result, for example, the Etruscans left Lemnos Island in Italy.

[kalibr]

But this is true, this is indicated by a lot of evidence. That periods of drought alternated with "wet" periods. And people, especially nomads, and farmers too, took off and went looking for where the grass was wet.

[Aljavad]

But this is true, this is indicated by a lot of evidence. That periods of drought alternated with "wet" periods. And people, especially nomads, and farmers too, took off and went looking for where the grass was wet.

Gumilyov, however!

[abrakadabre]

In this direction there is an interesting popular book by Nikonov "The History of the Frostbite". It is not indisputable in some points, but it is very good for the general outlook on the impact of climate change on the history of mankind in general and specific civilizations in particular.

[Glot]

Troy controlled the grain from the Black Sea.

Yes, rather it was. Most likely they beat off control over trade routes. And Elena is just an excuse.

[Turkir]

Add - Troy controlled the tin.

[Riv]

To get to the bottom, or what? Or not? .. Okay, so be it: I’ll get to the bottom. We must also confirm our reputation as poisoned by a technical education (even twice poisoned, I will tell you a secret).

The article has several close-up photographs of the hilt of swords and daggers. My question is: how are rivet holes made on them? Take a look: they look too flat and the same for ancient drilling methods. Even the chamfers on the holes are even. Not worn, not ground ... Apparently the most ordinary drill and the most ordinary drilling machine were used.
But what about historical authenticity ???

[marline]

They were "twisted" there according to the old-fashioned method.
I think it's obvious

[marline]

But seriously, there is such a gentleman - A. Sklyarov, a "techie" by the way. So he once argued that the ancient Egyptians could not, from the word at all, drill even holes in solid granite with a copper drill (crown), that all these holes were made on a super-duper modern machine ... after one local Kulibin showed him a hole drilled using the DE technology, broke the toilet bowl with bricks.
Baby, do not hesitate, patience and work, they will rub everything ...

[cth; fyn]

Bricks toilet .....)

[Riv]

Sorry ... It's one thing - to drill a stone. A different drill is needed on wood, and a third on metal. Suppose an ancient blacksmith could burn these holes in a tree, and punch them in a metal, but he would not succeed in such smooth chamfers and such identical holes. If you look at the ancient samples, then they have the size of a hat of a rivet under a centimeter.

[marline]

Firstly, the ancient blacksmith might not have known that different drills were needed.
Secondly, the hands of the ancient blacksmiths grew in the right place, so that they could make the same holes.
Thirdly, I would not say that the hats are big ... no gold ones, yes, just huge, but this is IMHO for show-offs ...
Fourth, the article in Russian says that the master worked with the handles for almost longer than with the blade itself, it is unlikely that this tool takes so much time with a modern tool.

[Aljavad]

the hands of the ancient blacksmiths grew in the right place

Not for nothing smiths were considered almost sorcerers!

[abrakadabre]

And IT still calls itself an engineer. Have you ever done something with your own hands? And do not lead the workers in the shop.
All of the above is elementary for any home craftsman experiencing a constant "hunger" for quality tools and materials.

1. A flat facet in the holes on a tree or bone is removed by any triangular metal trim in a few seconds of operation.
2. The size of the hat does not matter. I’m cold, you can rivet the IRON rivet at least a centimeter in diameter with an ordinary hammer with a semicircular brisk. And even a rivet made of soft material and even more so. It is easy to rivet such a rivet even in a tree or fastening many layers of leather.
All this does not constitute any technical problem. From the word "in general".

Of course, if the hands are not from jo ... grow.

[kalibr]

And they are not drilled! Neil writes that everything is done exclusively by the method of a lost form. That is, the master model is made of wax and ... a matter of technique. So the smooth holes are cast, well, and a file. But then the files were already ...

[Severomor]

Quote: kalibr

So even holes are castings, and a file. But the files were already there ...

How interesting, and what was the file made of? What material? And if it’s not difficult to show the photo, otherwise I won’t find it. With files, that's another topic

[marline]

Photo quartz sand you can google;)

[Severomor]

quartz sand file? Or how did the ancient Egyptians pour sand under a copper saw and cut granite ???? ))))

[marline]

If you mean by file - a metal rod with a notch, then I did not come across similar photos in bronze, and I'm not sure that they are.
If the tool is for surface treatment, then it is quite suitable: emery, pumice, quartz, chalk.

[kalibr]

You know, I'm not looking for anything on purpose for anyone, because in principle I don't prove anything to anyone. The razor ended up here only because someone wrote in the comments that, they say, and what did they shave with then, "Why are the faces shaved"? I read about files in some study about the Egyptians, but this is not my profile. You can find it sooner.

[Riv]

A file with a diameter of three millimeters in an ancient forge? Che, I doubt it ... And in the tree - are the holes cast too? :)
No need to multiply entities. Mr. had a regular electric drill on the bed.

[kalibr]

As for drilling a tree - why not? But metal, I repeat pouring the method of a lost form. And the holes are provided there! Actually, I have two sculptors of acquaintances (I wrote about one here!) Who pour very beautiful and delicate things from bronze and silver. Drills practically do not use.

[Glot]

A file with a diameter of three millimeters in an ancient forge? I doubt that ...

Are there any holes? There is ! They are drilled, pierced or boiled but they are and are made.
If you can’t understand how, and you think that the ancient master simply couldn’t drill them with anything, then you don’t understand what he did then, he’s not talking about anything. They are, and it is a fact!
Or do you mean that they were drilled with "extraterrestrial technology"?
I had one acquaintance, until they quarreled. In general, he was a good guy, educated and well-read, but once such an incident happened to him.
On one of the coins of Alexander the Great, he saw as a trim - kerav. He began to look for similar trimmers, and found not only coins minted in Macedonia, but also in Memphis and Asia. Although there are a lot of trim on the coins in it and any (in fact, it is possible to publish a book for trim only ) he decided that Keravin was a kind of cosmoblast left by aliens who had once visited the Earth, and the whole Asian campaign of Alexander in his true essence was started due to the search for this artifact. Then he developed a whole article on this subject, where he assured that Alexander found the first blaster in Egypt (well, remember, did he go to Siwa?) There. Yes, the trouble is, there were no charges, they were over. But the priests said that another one, a working machine, seems to be in India. And the Indian campaign began ...
In general, I will not give his theory further, since there was just a clinical case.
But all this I mean is that sometimes because of one small squiggle, like the image of a keravna, you can really go crazy. And sometimes, if we see something but cannot understand or explain this “something” from our position, then this does not mean that it cannot be at all.
This is about the holes. Sorry that is so long and confusing. But they exist, which means there were affordable technologies for their implementation.

[Aljavad]

But all this I mean, that sometimes because of one small squiggle, like that image is keravna, you can really go crazy.

It’s like with a Mayan priest-cosmonaut ...

[abrakadabre]

That's it. A rough hole will turn out exactly when casting. Then it is simply brought manually on the cast part. And for this, a well-known on the Stone Age onion device. This is certainly not a modern drill, but it is quite productive.

[kalibr]

Our main trouble is poverty! I call D.Nikol somehow, but he is not at home and his wife replies that he was in Syria (before the war it was!) Left to study the catapult found there! In the middle of the school year, the professor takes off, someone replaces him and ... a catapult! If I now fly away to a seminar with Nil, then firstly, I simply don’t have enough money for this, secondly, no one will replace me, and will have to take leave without pay. And the trip, even if I write 10 articles on it - will not pay off! Therefore, I clearly do not know the various subtleties. And could, get as much as D. Nicole. The load in the watch is the same with us! And you, too, by the way, could go to him and see everything for yourself ...

[Riv]

We trolls are fed well here. :)))
For fun, try to map the finds of arsenic bronze items, unless of course there are enough of them with confirmed chemical composition. On this map you will see everything. Deposits, industrial centers, trade routes, wars ... The whole story.

I have already seen such a map on Arab coins. Trade routes are clearly visible. "From the Varangians to the Greeks" as well.

[kalibr]

No need to compose anything! There was a study in the journal Russian Archeology. There are centuries, statistics of finds, maps, everything you write about. Even metallographic data. But I don't need it.

[Aljavad]

Our main misfortune with you is poverty!

Well, our ancestors did not rob Mexico or India. Sadness. Instead, they engaged in social experiments ....

[abrakadabre]

And boast about your technical background. If it were of high quality, it would not be difficult for you to quickly come up with even several options for how to make such holes.

[Riv]

Laser for example. Break through a beam of ions. To shoot. To grow a tree by driving nails into it in the right places. Enough? But a beam drill does not achieve such chamfers.

[marline]

A typical example of a "techie" square-nesting way of thinking:

Quote: Riv

Laser for example. Break through a beam of ions. To shoot. To grow a tree by driving nails into it in the right places. Enough? But a beam drill does not achieve such chamfers.

Riv, once again for you as a "particularly gifted" (or alternatively?) - this can be done with a beam drill, for this you will need straight arms and the included Motsk (has it not atrophied yet?).
An ancient joke on the topic: They give mathematics, physics and a techie a red ball and ask to find its volume.
Mathematician: measured the circumference, found the radius, calculated the volume.
Physicist: poured a glass of water, threw a ball into it, found the volume by the liquid displaced by the ball.
Techie: got out the table "Volumes of red balls"

[abrakadabre]

This is not an example of a techie, but a sofa-internet approach of an absolute amateur. Who will not learn in principle. But considers himself an expert in everything and climbs to teach others.

[Riv]

And there is also about the Russian, who broke one ball and lost the other. :)
Those who wish can independently drill a hole with smooth bevels in a solid tree with a beam drill. Drill permit to take a modern, but not thick. As in the picture, three millimeters.

And most importantly: think, why did the blacksmith make a hole with chamfers, and even a drill? Digging with an awl - and you're done. Anyway, then the rivet will get there.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

And there is also about the Russian, who broke one ball and lost the other. :)

Generally not the topic ... just to show off erudition wrote?

Quote: Riv

Those who wish can independently drill a hole with smooth bevels in a solid tree with a beam drill. Drill permit to take a modern, but not thick. As in the picture, three millimeters.

And most importantly: think, why did the blacksmith make a hole with chamfers, and even a drill? Digging with an awl - and you're done. Anyway, then the rivet will get there.

The technician is incorrigible ... Riv I'm not going to prove anything to you ... it's just a fact - you can do it with an onion drill and we won't talk about it anymore, or you still have: "Motsk is atrophied" ...

[Riv]

This cannot be done with a beam drill. Sadly ... :)

[marline]

Quote: Riv

This cannot be done with a beam drill ...

A person who does not distinguish steel from iron, is engaged in "twisting", the Slavs are forced to rob Troy ...

Quote: Riv

You can’t do this with a hole drill ... Sadly ... :)

Looks like religion does not allow

[Riv]

How naive it is: trying to hurt me that way. You still could not prove your point of view and turned to the individual.
The drain is counted. Farewell.

[marline]

Quote: Riv

How naive it is: trying to hurt me that way. You still could not prove your point of view and turned to the individual.
The drain is counted. Farewell.

I had to prove something ... Read above:

Quote: Merlin

... Riv I'm not going to prove anything to you ...

Learn to read, come in handy ... you have counted the drain .. Goodbye ...

[abrakadabre]

It’s immediately obvious that the man didn’t work at the workbench and does not know how to hold the tool in his hands. Such an elementary task can be solved by completely improvised means.
Onion as well. Who did you notice that the chamfers are made during drilling? What production did you see?
Let it be known to our great production engineer, what is a chamfer in a factory after drilling holes with drill bits (for small holes) using a tool such as a countersink. For large diameter holes, milling is used. And for making holes, and for chamfering.

[Riv]

Again you are not talking about that. Well, I really want to hurt me, to catch me on something ... Dull and hopeless attempts.
Have you read the article? Have you carefully looked at the photos? In the photo of the handle in the article, the chamfer is almost invisible, which is why it is said: neatly done. No countersinks, or onion drills were used there, and even there was no question of removing additional bevels.

Go already, make chain mail. Just don't get hurt. :)

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Well, I really want to hurt me, catch me on something ...

The Elusive Joe in Action

Quote: Riv

Have you read the article? Have you carefully looked at the photos? In the photo of the handle in the article, the chamfer is almost invisible, which is why it is said: neatly done.

Not sure how to do it neatly? Do not do it carefully, turn on the mock straighten your hands and fix it.

[Riv]

Laser for example. Break through a beam of ions. To shoot. To grow a tree by driving nails into it in the right places. Enough? But a beam drill does not achieve such chamfers.

[Riv]

Well, now about the Trojan War itself. A simple question: why? After all, a world war in modern times would be. Because of the woman?

And the battle to be, and the cities burn.
And women of wine, not of gods,
That both heroes and leaders will perish ...

Such wars because of women do not start. There can be any formal reason, but the true reason is always serious. Take a look at the picture below. This is a blade from the Black Sea coast. Reminded nothing? And look at one of the illustrations in the article, the second from the bottom. Surprise? Surprise ... The Greek sword is on one face with a weapon from Meotida.

[Riv]

Those who wish can independently google info on archaeological finds on the shores of the Black Sea and marvel at the similarity of local products with products of Mediterranean cultures. Moreover, some local finds date back to completely awkward dates and seem to even outperform products from Crete.

What we have? The style is the same, the composition of the metal is very similar (especially in terms of alloying impurities), even the scabbard is similar. But the peoples are completely different. And here it is necessary to recall myths. Iason, after the golden fleece, sailed not to the barbarians, but to a completely civilized area with the king, cities and other European values. He was also treated in a completely civilized manner. Baska was not cut off, but received as a guest. That is the big question, which people were more developed.

In general, there was someone to trade with. And what did you trade? Yes, metal! Copper, tin, lead ... How many ancient ships were raised from the bottom in the Black Sea? And very often they carry a load of metal ingots, or the anchors are hollow and filled with tin. In the Caucasus, there were (and are) deposits of fairly rich tin and copper ores (and arsenic-free). There was lead, there was silver, gold. That is, Troy stood on the then "Bronze Road" and, of her own free will, could well block this path. Here is the reason for the war. By that time, the own deposits of the Mediterranean had already been mined, and Troy kept high prices for the metal. Well, the Achaeans once got fed up with it. They sailed and divided everything according to concepts.

[kalibr]

Yes, here you are absolutely right. Therefore, you + from me personally. True, copper deposits in Cyprus have not yet been developed, but the problem of the metal has always been: I will not sell Tebe, I will sell him! You never know what conflicts there were unknown to us.

[Glot]

In general, there was someone to trade with.

So there trade continued. How many Greek policies on our coast of Pontus of Euxinus, the trading post and the colonies then stood. Everything was in order with the trade.

[cth; fyn]

Sarcasm mod on / Oh dear, on the Black Sea they found a Greek sword ... Stop, there is a whole Greek city in Crimea. / Sarcasm mod of.

[Riv]

And not one city. And the age of these cities google too lazy? Greek colonies are much younger than local settlements.

[Glot]

And not one city. And the age of these cities google too lazy? Greek colonies are much younger than local settlements.

Why should I google, I already know. Yes, younger and what. Never mind. It is clear that the first merchants and colonists did not sail to the deserted shore, it is clear that local tribes lived there. And then with whom then to trade it?

[Glot]

And not one city. And the age of these cities google too lazy? Greek colonies are much younger than local settlements.

Why should I google, I already know. Yes, younger and what. Never mind. It is clear that the first merchants and colonists did not sail to the deserted shore, it is clear that local tribes lived there. And then with whom then to trade it?

[Riv]

And the fact that with the savages of the then Greek was not particularly easy to trade. The savage is good today, and tomorrow he will decide what is easier to take. Trading colonies were based only in fairly civilized places. And far from the fact that the Greeks were then more civilized.

[Glot]

And the fact that with the savages of the then Greek was not particularly easy to trade. The savage is good today, and tomorrow he will decide what is easier to take. Trading colonies were based only in fairly civilized places. And far from the fact that the Greeks were then more civilized.

And someone claimed that the Scythians (Cimmerians) were savages?
Colonies could be established in any places suitable for their founding. And it doesn’t matter whether the local tribes are highly developed or not. If not, so much the worse for them. Those who want to be pulled up to their level, those who do not want to - pulled up, but not voluntarily.
The Hellenes needed land. Although then it was not the Hellenes yet. So much for the wave of colonization. The Dorians go to the Peloponnese, Attica, Thessaly, etc., the Mycenaeans to the mass of the Cycladic islands, to Crete, Cyprus, Palestine, Egypt. About Troy has already been said, and also "Sea Peoples". Plus trade is also a strong impetus to enter new markets. And they traded from Africa to India. And they traded with "savages" and with more developed ones.

[Riv]

What do you mean "need land"? There was enough land in Greece as well. Sicily was close at hand. Agricultural paradise, who knows. All of Asia Minor ... No. The colonies had the function primarily of trade, ensuring the delivery of local goods to the metropolis. And in order for these local goods to be, someone had to produce them on the spot. And the presence of artisans suggests a fairly developed local civilization and it is far from the fact that the Greeks did not look savages by local standards. By the way: in Sparta, the same Athenians were considered scoundrels and thieves. Maybe they were not so wrong? The shopping lifestyle is taking its toll.

You imagine a Greek colony as in Red Alert: a base is sailing, turning around and five minutes later the plants are already working. But in reality, only some homeless people, or convicts, like in Australia, will survive in the desert. A trading post should initially be a very profitable project for a city to appear around it. Otherwise, he will remain a small fortress on the seashore. In Crimea, there are enough of them.

[Glot]

What do you mean "need land"? There was enough land in Greece as well.

Study the stages of Greek colonization, everything will become clear. Only not according to the book from the series "Dr. Greece in 5 minutes".
There you will find one of the stages, more precisely the paths and the foundation of "Magna Graecia". This is the question of the Sicilian Greeks. When, what and why.
Have you ever been to Greece?
There is not a lot of land suitable for agricultural land. There is a lot of stone, but not enough earth. It is mountainous and insular. And a growing ethnic group needs more land, more food. So the development of new territories begins. And not just for the sake of trade, but also that it would be elementary not to stand on each other's heads.
You too incorrectly and straightforwardly imagine both the colonization as a whole, and the periods of Dr. Greek colonization in particular.

[Riv]

Sorry ... Do you even understand what you're reading? What constantly attracts you to drang tries? They tell you the third time: expansion should be profitable. Just like that, nobody will go to build a city in a new place. Either there is a strategically important point and then the city begins with a military camp, or some goods are produced there, and if there are a lot of this goods, the port will begin to grow.

Throughout world history there is only one successful example of the development of untouched lands without the goal of using strategic or resource potential - this is the development by the British of Australia. The convicts were sent there. The convict will survive - to hell with him. Dies - even better. But among the Greeks this was not popular.

[kalibr]

"Animal style" and "antenna style" are similar, but this is a different culture proven. There are many similarities in the Celts and many other things. People were actively trading, goods passed their hands, and finally fought. People generally love everything that is alien and unusual.

[Riv]

It is precisely the similarity, and not identity, that just works for this version. If the metal was identical to Cretan (and it is sometimes identical and we are dealing with reforged products), then everything is obvious. But if only design is borrowed, it means that the locals had a sufficient level of development to borrow artistic details. And given the uncertain dating - it is not known who was more developed.

I remember I promised to prove that Troy was defended by the Slavs? :) Suppose not the Slavs, but their ancestors, but this is proved elementary. We look at Homer the kings of the allies of Troy. We look at the map where their kingdoms were located. Yoshkin cat! Yes, it's all the Black Sea coast, Crimea, the Sea of ​​Azov. Rarely south. And the ancestors of the Slavs lived there with might and main. Given how Indo-European languages ​​were distributed and where bronze was first invented, it is still unknown who borrowed the design. Maybe just the Cretans.

That is, even then, Russia was a raw materials appendage of the West.

[Glot]

I remember I promised to prove that Troy was defended by the Slavs? :) Suppose not the Slavs, but their ancestors, but this is proved elementary.

This assumption is broken absurdly elementary.
The difference in cultures and gods worshiped by the Trojans and ancestors, or rather the great-great-ancestors of the Slavs.

[Riv]

My friend, what are you talking about now? Then, after all, there was no Christianity, and the pagans always agreed among themselves. And when did the gods interfere with the sharing of money?
Sorry moa, but now you froze nonsense.

[Glot]

My friend, what are you talking about now?

I mean that maybe some tribes from across the sea with whom the Trojans collaborated could help them in the war, but what you said was that the Slavs took part in the defense of Troy, that’s nonsense.

[Glot]

That is, even then, Russia was a raw materials appendage of the West.

Then still, there was neither Russia nor the West.
Cimmerians-Scythians, not Russia.
The Little Asia and the Hellenes, not the West.
All this will be, but later. Much later.
In the meantime, there was mutually beneficial trade and cooperation in certain matters.

[Riv]

Come on ... :) What's the difference what to call the local people? Someone called Cimmerians, someone Scythians. And they probably called themselves quite differently. Maybe even (ha ha!) Ykrami. Did the tribes replace each other? Is this a kind of genocide - "change"? In fact, all these "replacements" were quite a formed ethnic group with similar customs among different tribes and even a common religion.

[Glot]

Come on ... :) What's the difference what to call the local people? Someone called Cimmerians, someone Scythians. And they probably called themselves quite differently. Maybe even (ha ha!) Ykrami. Did the tribes replace each other? Is this a kind of genocide - "change"? In fact, all these "replacements" were quite a formed ethnic group with similar customs among different tribes and even a common religion.

Little is known about the Cimmerians and (or) Scythians. Yes, maybe they didn’t call themselves that, even for sure. Who is there and how and whom has displaced, I do not know. It is clear that there was one thing, then the others came, no one replaced the first, they simply merged themselves into one nation. That’s not the point. Hellenes and Scythians are different cultures. That is the point. And not the Cimmerians and (or) Scythians prayed to Apollo, but to other gods. And their customs were different.

[Riv]

Well, once merged, then the ancestors.
And the gods of all pagan animals are very similar. The same Scythians on this subject did not have any particular problems with the Greeks. Only rituals differed, and it was just for the ritual heresy that the Scythians punished severely.

[Glot]

And the gods of all pagan animals are very similar.

No, it's not that simple. The gods of the Scythians and Greeks were different.

[Aljavad]

The same Scythians on this subject did not have any particular problems with the Greeks.

Yes, you are not in the subject!

One of the Scythian kings was a "Grekophile". He liked everything Elin very much. He will come to the polis in Taurida, tell the companions to camp under the walls, and goes - like for negotiations. And he himself had already in the policy a house "like the Greeks", a Greek wife, all the affairs. Furthermore. He prayed in the Elin temples. I even received initiation into some mysteries.
As long as everything was "Vasya-Vasya" with the authorities of the policy, it went on like that. But since she found a scythe on a stone and the Elins could not agree with this very king. Then they invited his comrades-in-arms to the city just when the obstinate king in Greek clothing participated in the sacrifices to the Olympians. The Scythians killed the king for this.

And the gods of all pagan animals are very similar.

"All these Russians are the same!"

[Riv]

First: not the king, but his brother. He lived in Greece for a long time and was reborn :(. Secondly: his own brother and part-time tsar and killed. It just so happened between the brothers and the reason was just found. Well, you understand me? .. But other similar "incidents "Not noticed. Strange, isn't it? The Tsar was not spared, but the Greek neighbors tolerated the same rituals.

Bushkov is now in the habit of collecting such anecdotes in books and publishing them under harsh names like "Mysterious Asia". However, his book about Genghis Khan is very interesting, it is recommended.

[Aljavad]

Who cares what the local people call? Someone called the Cimmerians, someone Scythians.

You would at least read about them ...

[Riv]

Where to read? In the history book of Ukraine?

[marline]

Quote: Riv

Where to read? In the history book of Ukraine?

Is this the only history book you know? Have you been banned on Google and Yandex? Do you like to ask children's questions? Do you want to talk about it?
Riv I will tell you a terrible secret: "different peoples have different cultures, different customs and even ... O HORROR ... a different language. For example, you write in Russian, and the Trojans spoke Luwian, you may be mistaken, an atheist, but they believed in gods. And yet you, like all of us, were brought up on Christian values, Trojans ... "
And imagine, all these clever things: customs, languages ​​and traditions ... by historians are taken into account when they talk about different nations.
However, what do you need these little things, you are "of the same blood" with them ... is this the law of the jungle?

[marline]

And in general, somehow be careful with "the same people." 74 years ago, a simple boy from Schwerin, in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Hans, burning a Russian hut and shooting women and children on the highway, did not think at all that he was a descendant of some Dragovit, a Polabian Slav.

[marline]

Okst, we are talking about the second millennium BC !!!
What is Russia ?! What are the Slavs ?!
There, Ukrainians dug the Black Sea ...

[Glot]

There, Ukrainians dug the Black Sea ...

Oh yes, I forgot.
Then, according to Riv, it turns out that the three defended ... Ukrainians.

[Riv]

Well, that's it ... Burned the topic. Now on the "censor" I will be deified. : (((

[kalibr]

We all came from the Indo-European group of languages. That is, there were several migrations of peoples when they were going somewhere ... No one denies this. That our great-great-ancestors came from India is obvious. Most likely they went through the "fertility triangle". This is logical. So the Sanskrit vocabulary stretched from the Dean to Asia Minor, this is also logical. Then someone crossed the Caucasus Mountains, someone swam across the Bosphorus ... Next where? We will not talk about this yet. It is important that yes ... the ancestors of the Slavs were very distant there. But these are NOT SLAVS. The Slavs lived in forests and glades, their habitats were determined from burials with temporal rings. ALL! That is, they came there, settled there and became what they became ... But while they went there / here, a lot has changed and it is impossible to put a sign = 100%!

[marline]

It seems that in India they say that Indo-Europeans came there from the north ...
In general, this thankless task is to look for the homeland of the Indo-Europeans, but nevertheless the most popular version: the Black Sea and Volga steppes (pit culture). IMHO, I would move closer to the Urals-Altai, to the culture of pit-comb ceramics (Uralic language family)
But, in principle, any visitor to this site can consider his own village (even America, something there ... since some call the homeland of IE - the New Land)
On the whole, the proto-Indo-Europeans were a people of jokes and left nothing but a language after themselves ...

[Riv]

But all the same ancestors?

[marline]

Of course, these are the ancestors: Latvians, Lithuanians, Austrians, British, Danes, Dutch, Icelanders, Germans, Norwegians, Frisians, Swedes, Faroese, Persians, Tajiks, Pashtuns, Talysh, Tatis, Mazenderans, Gilyans, Kurds, Balochis, Pamiris, Oset , Italians, French, Spaniards, Catalans, Portuguese, Romanians, Moldavians, Scots, Irish, Breton, Welsh, Belarusians, Bulgarians, Ludicians, Macedonians, Poles, Russians, Serbs, Slovenes, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Croats, Czechs, Albanians.
And I haven’t named everyone yet ... A real Indo-European family;)

[kalibr]

Well and negros to us ancestors, only very old!

[marline]

Well ... if you omit the nostratiks, that is yes ... only brothers, rather :)
Still, they also developed ... probably

[Glot]

But all the same ancestors?

And the monkeys are our ancestors. Sort of ...

[marline]

Lucy is either still a monkey, or already a man ... Austrolopithecus in general.
Genetics say that modern monkeys genetically moved further from our common ancestor ... so WE (humans) are not the crown of evolution ... :)

[Aljavad]

so WE (humans) are not the crown of evolution ... :)

And aside, having heard this, the rat quietly laughed ...

[abrakadabre]

Even slugs (through the lancelet) are our ancestors. But quite ancient. And this is not the limit ...

[Riv]

Well, no one pulled you by the tongue. If you want to lead a pedigree from a worm, I will not interfere. Just don't say "our". Some will disagree.

[Riv]

Well, no one pulled you by the tongue. If you want to lead a pedigree from a worm, I will not interfere. Just don't say "our". Some will disagree.

[marline]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, will there be an article about chariots and battle axes and hammers in the continuation of this series?

[kalibr]

So this: the article about ships and chariots is ready and is in the portfolio of the editorial office. There will be an article by Svetlana Denisova on Minoan culture in general. There is nothing and never will be about axes, the double ax is a religious symbol. But there will be material about the reconstruction of armor: helmets, armor, shields. It will be for sure! Then a material is planned about "the culture of the fields of burial urns" and antenna swords.

[marline]

Then look forward, sir

[Turkir]

Thanks for the article. We are waiting for new ones.
Maybe you will enter Rome?

[kalibr]

As for Rome, I have a whole list of works by British historians on the basis of which an interesting series can be made. These are historians and reenactors and even Ermine Street Guard - a very authoritative reenactment group. So about Rome, this is already planned. Moreover, my first book in English, co-authored with Nikolay, was just called "Enemies of Rome 5: Northern Black Sea Region". There was a series such as 1,2,3 ... But ... there was another exacerbation of relations and the book was covered. Transferred to another publishing house - Montvert, but it went bankrupt. But the materials lie somewhere ...

[Glot]

"Enemies of Rome 5: Northern Black Sea Region".

About Mithridates Eupator was in it?

[kalibr]

Yes of course. And how did Hitoyt slaughter him after the poison didn't work!

[Aljavad]

So this: the article about ships and chariots is ready and is in the portfolio of the editorial office. There will be an article by Svetlana Denisova on Minoan culture in general. There is nothing and never will be about axes, the double ax is a religious symbol. But there will be material about the reconstruction of armor: helmets, armor, shields. It will be for sure! Then a material is planned about "the culture of the fields of burial urns" and antenna swords.

Yesssss!

We are waiting, sir.

[abrakadabre]

We are waiting, sir !!! With great impatience.

[Stilet]

And why nothing about axes? Is there no material? Or are they not in that era at all? Yes, no .... there can’t be ... kudy-without an ax, then! And the ring on the Odyssey axes?

[Stilet]

And why nothing about axes? Is there no material? Or are they not in that era at all? Yes, no .... there can’t be ... kudy-without an ax, then! And the ring on the Odyssey axes?

[Inco]

Thanks for the series of articles, very informative.

[Reptiloid]

Thanks for another great article. I know that the Egyptian sword KHOPEU you quoted (beautiful photo) was the weapon of God Seth during the battle with His nephew God Horus for power over Egypt ... And Choir had a dagger. There are such frescoes. At that time Seth was the "guard" of the pharaoh. I read more than 20 books about Egypt, attended lectures on Egyptology. Did not think about quotations. It turns out that I was interested in ancient religion, mythology and culture . With your support, I am discovering a new topic.

[Turkir]

To whom it is interesting to read and look about bronze weapons in China, I recommend
http://territa.ru/publ/2-1-0-62

[Stilet]

I want to thank the author of the articles. Very informative. And what is the controversy surrounding all of the material articles. Can I also insert my 5 cents ...
Dear colleagues, let's look at things more calmly. How did the sword appear at all ?! This, Olympians forgive me, is a fragment of a spear that someone once successfully stuck in the navel of his opponent. Joke. The main weapon, at least the Greeks, was always a spear or even two spears, and the sword is a secondary weapon, to some extent defensive, necessary when the main spear weapon is lost or broken. And even if you go on the defensive, it’s better to stab and cut, not opening up to chopping blows, but hiding behind in the ranks of the phalanx dipilon shield. By the way, making a reference to the country of the goddess Amaterasu, the jari masters tried not to challenge the adherents of Ken-do, because practically did not survive. Returning to Hellas, I also draw your attention to the fact that the armor of warriors covers mainly the body, leaving arms and legs open (pay attention to the joints) and the base of the neck. So places in which to stick a bronze sword was, with the appropriate skill, more than enough.