Military Review

Weapons of the Trojan War. Spears (part five)

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Lance is certainly one of the oldest species. weaponsif not the most ancient. However, the cudgel can be considered the most ancient, only a spear, and especially a flint-tipped spear, a more perfect thing. When did the first spears appear? Science can finally speak out on this subject quite definitely. In eastern Africa, ancient spearheads were found. They are approximately 280 thousands of years old, that is, they are 80 thousands of years older than the earliest remains of people of the modern species Homo sapiens and 200 thousands of other samples of similar artifacts, which until now were considered the oldest examples of such products! They were discovered in the Gademota Formation on the slopes of a destroyed rift valley volcano in central Ethiopia. Today this area is a mountain range that rises above one of the four reservoirs of the rift valley - the picturesque lake Zivay. For most of the middle Pleistocene (roughly 125 – 780 thousands of years ago), there was a “mega-ozero” that united the four present ones. Paleontologists found numerous remains of antelope and hippopotamus and 141 tip from obsidian. They were studied by Jonathan Zale of the University of California, and the object was the tips of precisely throwing weapons, for which damage to them was examined. The fact is that at the moment of impact, V-shaped cracks form on the obsidian plates. And the top of this letter "V" marks the point from which they spread. The narrower the "wings" "V", the higher the rate of formation of cracks in obsidian. That is, in the first case, the spear was driven into the victim, and in the second, it flew into the target, being thrown by a strong hand.


Weapons of the Trojan War. Spears (part five)

The famous image of the "March of the Warriors" on a vase from Mycenae. Pay attention to the leaf-shaped tips and strangely shaped pennants on spears.

Obviously, the invention of throwing weapons was a giant step forward compared to direct strike weapons (stone tips for percussion copies appear in the archaeological record about 500 thousands of years ago). Now hunters were able to attack at a distance, which sharply reduced the risk of dying when approaching a potentially dangerous animal (bull or hippo) and significantly expanded the range of prey itself. Prior to this discovery, it was believed that throwing weapons appeared about 60 – 100 thousands of years ago. The oldest dart found was 80 thousands of years. Behind them came a bow and arrows, as well as a spear thrower (atlatl). It seemed quite logical that all this was invented by none other than Reasonable Man, because it is much more difficult to invent and manufacture throwing weapons than piercing-cutting. And as soon as these weapons appeared in the hands of our ancestors, they relatively quickly settled the rest of the world, displacing other members of the Homo genus from it. However, new data destroy this coherent picture, and they say that not only our immediate ancestors, but also representatives of some other, more ancient African population used darts. Samal himself believes that the creator of the most ancient darts was most likely the Heidelberg man - the most likely ancestor of the Man of Reasonable and the same Neanderthals.


One of the oldest tips of the Achaean time dating from 2700 - 2300. BC, and found on the island of Amorgos in the Cycladic archipelago.

But you should not get upset if we never find out whether people of the genus Homo sapiens adopted this weapon or invented it themselves. It is much more important to know that this period (200 – 300 thousands of years ago) was very important in human evolution: new anatomical features and more sophisticated tools appeared, indicating a change in his behavior (and, accordingly, thinking). Apparently, it was then that people started talking. Do not pay attention to the fact that this find was made in Ethiopia. They could invent them anywhere and anyone. The main thing is that in the time so remote from us the ancient people could easily fight at a distance! Although the same stone tips already in our time were used by primitive peoples by no means always. For example, spears of Australian aborigines are most often all-wood, that is, they represent a simple pointed stick! Exactly the same trophy - a polished wooden spear with a harpooned wooden (!) Tip was mined in 1779 in the Hawaiian Islands in a battle with the islanders, where Captain James Cook was killed. In the Solomon Islands, the spikes on the tips of the spears were bone, however, the spears with carved wooden tips were also in use there and ... why not use our remote ancestors in the Stone Age in exactly the same spears, because they had all the materials for their manufacture !

So having such historical "Hurt" in the past, it is hardly worth surprising that the ancient Cretans and Achaeans also used spears and darts. So, during excavations of early Greek settlements, such as Sesklo and Dimini, belonging to the early and middle Bronze Age, spearheads were found in large numbers, and in general they are found quite often.


Another similar tip from the Cycladic Islands.

There is a classification of spear points found in their era, but it is not as interesting and intuitive as the classification of swords, so it hardly makes sense to give it here. But according to the main characteristics, this type of weapon deserves a detailed description. So, judging by the iconographic data, the spears were of three main options: very long, rather long and short.


Mount flat tips found on the Cycladic Islands and Crete (XVI century. BC. E.)

The first, which could be in length from 3 to 5 m, and used mainly in the early periods, even if their use is confirmed in the Iliad. They could have been the weapons of the infantrymen who held them with both hands and acted against them both against the enemy in the war and against the dangerous animal during the hunt. Most likely, these spears were equipped with large bronze tips. On the contrary, shorter spears were used at all stages of the late Bronze Age. Short spears used for throwing and during melee or hunting. Often they can not be distinguished from the darts, that is, special throwing copies.

As for the finds of spearheads, one of the earliest specimens found on the territory of the Aegean world is a leaf-shaped copper tip dated to 2700 - 2300. BC, and found on the island of Amorgos in the Cycladic archipelago. Interesting is the shape of this tip and the method of its attachment in the shaft. It is obvious that he was inserted into a cleft or cut (see fig.) And was attached to the shaft with a rope or tendons. It is possible that such a fastening was fragile and easily “loosened up”, therefore such tips were soon (relatively, of course!) Replaced by another - a petiole. Between 1600 and 1200 BC such petioch tips made of copper and bronze spread throughout the Aegean world and replaced the tips of the previous type.


1600 tips to 1200 BC. found in Cyprus.


Mount petiole tips.

The originality of thinking to the authors of this attachment can not be denied. It is obvious that a hole with a hole was made under the petiole in the cleft for removing the cap of the petiole on one side. Then the petiole itself was smeared with glue, the hoofed animal was most likely inserted into this hole, and the split itself was wound up again with a rope or tendons. Such a mount was much stronger than the previous one, so it was more convenient to act with such a spear both in battle and in hunting. The tip itself has also become stronger. A noticeable longitudinal rib appeared on it.


Tip from Pylos (around 1350 - 1200 b. BC)

At the end of the late Achaean time there were already vlachatye tips, simply put on the pole. They were different forms - leaf-shaped, with a lenticular profile, with a rib and without a rib, and faceted, often cruciform in cross section.


Bronze tip from burial in Azin (around 1300 BC).

Short darts were used not only for throwing, but also in hand-to-hand fighting, as the fresco from Pylos visually speaks about, where one of the combatants thrusts his opponent into the groin. It is interesting that although the warrior himself is almost naked, he again has a boar’s helmet on his head, and on his feet are shoes that cover the foot and leggings.


Mural from Pylos.

In a similar way - that is, with a short dart or spear, the warrior wearing a leggings, a “boar helmet”, and a “t-shirt” on a fresco from Mycenae is also armed.


Mural of Mycenae.


But this trident was found during excavations of the Achaean settlement near Hala Sultan Tekke in Cyprus and dates from the XII century. BC. This is hardly something military. Most likely, such triad beat fish.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)
Armor of the Trojan War (part two)
Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)
http://topwar.ru/83250-schity-troyanskoy-voyny-chast-chetvertaya.html
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  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 7 October 2015 06: 57 New
    +3
    The colossal power of energy in a flying spear! Therefore, almost all armor and armor made their way.
    And of course you will not envy the one who got the spear.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 7 October 2015 09: 39 New
      +1
      Not so she is colossal.
      1. Riv
        Riv 7 October 2015 09: 52 New
        -1
        Like yes. An abandoned pilum has an energy somewhere less than half that of a pistol bullet and four times less than an automatic. And 5.45 ricochets from the fence - only on the road.
        1. Glot
          Glot 7 October 2015 10: 29 New
          +1
          Like yes. An abandoned pilum has an energy somewhere less than half that of a pistol bullet and four times less than an automatic. And 5.45 ricochets from the fence - only on the road.


          The energy is of course higher at a pistol or submachine gun bullet, and they ricochet yes, you can even hit a ricochet, but a spear, a pilum or something else, weighs much more than a bullet. So where 5,45 ricochets, the pilum will break. smile
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. aszzz888
          aszzz888 7 October 2015 12: 27 New
          -1
          Riv RU Today, 09: 52 ↑ New
          Like yes. An abandoned pilum has an energy somewhere less than half that of a pistol bullet and four times less than an automatic


          It is not entirely correct to compare the energy of human power and powder charge. Minus you.
          1. Riv
            Riv 7 October 2015 12: 46 New
            0
            To school, children. To school! At school you will be taught (although in the current - xs) that the kinetic energy of the body does not depend on how it was dispersed. You can kick, or a shot, or rubbing against a cat. In any case, it is equal to half the product of mass and the square of the velocity of this body (we will not stutter about rotation yet).

            Now let's talk about rebounds. Why is an automatic bullet at a higher speed more prone to ricochets than a pistol? Because it is longer. When a tangent hits an obstacle, rotation puts it on its side. Before a bullet manages to break through an obstacle, an impulse (google the law of conservation of momentum) manages to change direction and the bullet flies off hell knows where. Therefore, 5.45 even from the bushes ricochets. At 7.62, the bullet is thicker, this is not typical for her, she only flies away from the stones. A pistol in general is almost round and far from the fact which one will work better in armor.

            Now look at the spear. Long? Yes, with it many times longer than a bullet. In flight, does the axis of the shaft always coincide with the momentum? No. Kinetic energy is less than that of a bullet at times. So guess, schoolchildren, which is more prone to ricochet: a bullet, or a dart?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Glot
              Glot 7 October 2015 16: 22 New
              +1
              To school, children. To school!


              No, you’d better go to school. smile
              What does the rebound at all? And, it would be really not correct to compare the effects of automatic small arms, and spears and their derivatives on the shield, or something else.
              And yet, what to compare the action (effect) on the target of a bullet from a pistol and machine gun? You can also compare how it will ricochet when hit by a heavy bullet from RMB and PMA. It is clear that in different ways. Yes, and depending on what. smile
              Go the empirical way.
              Take two knives, about the same size and shape but with different weights. Suppose the first is not more than 100 grams, the second gram 300 and throw them in a reinforced board, wood, stand for throwing.
              The throwing force will be approximately the same, the shape of the knives is the same, but the difference in weight will play a role, both in terms of impact on the target (penetration) and in the sense of rebounds, twists, etc.
              Just don’t tell that they will "work" the same way. I like to throw knives, and I know how the weight of the knife affects the target (breaking, breaking) when throwing. smile
              1. Riv
                Riv 7 October 2015 17: 14 New
                0
                To school, urgently! In the meantime - a fat pair in physics for the sixth grade. :)

                Force, as follows from Newton’s second law, is equal to the product of mass and acceleration. Obviously, at the same speed of the knives (and it is about the same), and the same braking acceleration (the change in speed of both knives on the target is also about the same and takes place at almost the same time), the throwing force will by no means be the same for knives of different masses.

                You, my friend, do not know physics at all. It is sad. And what has the rebound to do with it - I already explained. The breakdown force in our case depends not just on the mass, but on the kinetic energy of the body. If an object with a higher kinetic energy does not penetrate the armor, then an object with a lower and more prone to ricochet will not penetrate it either.

                We are not considering options for sub-caliber weapons yet. Although ... Pay attention to the shape of the tip in the first photo and think about why you need a stiffener on the tips.
                1. Glot
                  Glot 7 October 2015 21: 56 New
                  0
                  To school, urgently!


                  I'm on my way ! laughing
                  And then without physics and spears they don’t break through nifig, ricochet, and even fall off the poles, and the shields are not the same, nor the swords ... Damn him, how in ancient times did it pierce, hold and chop? lol
                  That's it, I'm going to school! yes
                2. Insurgent LC
                  Insurgent LC 8 October 2015 00: 59 New
                  +2
                  ISU 152 with an armor-piercing projectile weighing 52 kg, as if it didn’t penetrate the armor of the tigers, but for some reason it broke or the tower was demolished The kinetic energy does its job
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 8 October 2015 06: 19 New
                    -1
                    It turns out how it was necessary to win the war! More spear to do. The mass decides the same. And for some reason, our tankers were trying to armor-piercing. Here are wild people ... They would make shells from lead. The mass will be twice as large, which means it’s more efficient in the tank.
                    Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I went to work in a pleasant mood. :)))

                    But can you explain how the penetration of armor was different from its breaking? Uncover the topic with your great knowledge.
                    1. brn521
                      brn521 8 October 2015 11: 17 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Riv
                      But can you explain how the penetration of armor was different from its breaking?

                      Take riot policemen in full gear. Take the wooden door. Riot police first shoots the door from his PMM. It turns out a hole. This is a break. Next, the riot police accelerates to an easy run and hits the door with his shoulder. That flies off the hinges. This is a breakout. The energy is the same. The result and principle of operation is different. It’s one thing when the shell is confronted with armor material. Another is when the load is transferred to the welds, suspension and mounting of the tower.
                      Now about school physics. There is nothing sensible in it that allows one to specifically explain the result of such an interaction of objects. Only general ideas. And in the general university program, too, no. Unless they teach engineers, and even then, depending on their specialization. Itself has long been looking for simplified theoretical material on the issue. For example, to assess what a specific bullet will pierce and what will not. I didn’t find anything.
                      To illustrate the above example. Riot policemen can shoot a steel door with an armor-piercing bullet made of TT (PM cartridges after modernization, having received an unhardened mushroom-shaped steel core, were greatly lost in armor piercing). But with his shoulder, he can even peck at it before turning blue. The result will be zero, and the energy comparable with the energy of the TT bullet, merge without result. So explain this matter with the help of school physics as you want. Without pulling the ears and poking a finger to the ceiling.
                      PS. phrases like
                      To school, urgently! In the meantime - a fat pair in physics for the sixth grade. :)
                      very well in harmony with the avatar. I don’t understand why people are nervous, fun. Continue in the same spirit :) .
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. Riv
                        Riv 8 October 2015 16: 59 New
                        -1
                        Thanks, laughed. "Take the riot police" - well, then ...
                        You, by chance, will not be from Ukraine?
                      3. brn521
                        brn521 9 October 2015 12: 15 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Riv
                        “Take riot policemen” - well, it’s necessary ... You, by chance, will not be from Ukraine?

                        From the suburbs. Here "OMONOVETS" is a fairly well-known and visual character of the time of the 90s - early 2000s. Almost like "New Russian".
                        Quote: Riv
                        Thanks, laughed.

                        What about explaining this with school physics? The concepts of energy, momentum of force and its connection with the momentum of the body in this case can hardly play an illustrative role and will explain little.
                    2. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok 11 November 2015 11: 41 New
                      0
                      there are also such variables as the area of ​​impact, the center of mass and the hardness of the projectile, the viscosity and hardness of the obstacle .... There are too many variables, therefore there is no concrete formula, only experience and assumptions.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  2. 222222
    222222 7 October 2015 10: 56 New
    +1
    The weapon of the Trojan War. "
    ... We study the experience of our ancestors ... !! wink
    .... FUTURE WEAPONS OF THE 4TH WORLD !!! ????
  • D-Master
    D-Master 7 October 2015 07: 04 New
    0
    An interesting article, we look forward to continuing. I look forward to an article about Trojan swords - “copper-sharp”. It is very interesting to read about how the Greeks fought with bronze weapons that are heavier than steel and dull at times faster.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 7 October 2015 09: 40 New
      +2
      Already been. About swords the first article of the cycle. You can read it at the link at the bottom of this article.
      Bronze weapons are not heavier than steel. The same 1-1.5 kg per blade. And the point here is not the density of bronze, which is not much different from the density of steel, by the way:

      steel - 7700-7900 kg / m3
      bronze - 7800-8700 kg / m3

      That is, the difference is not so great that the manufactured weapons with similar sizes were directly several times heavier. Plus or minus a few cm in size and the right balance will make the bronze blade indistinguishable in convenience from steel.
  • surrozh
    surrozh 7 October 2015 07: 11 New
    +2
    In childhood, he could not normally attach the tip to the arrow. Thanks to the author, ancient people were wiser than it seemed before.
    1. Aljavad
      Aljavad 8 October 2015 20: 53 New
      +1
      ancient people were wiser than it seemed before.


      They were no more stupid than us. The brain is the same. The training program is different. Instead of brands, from childhood they remembered the properties of plants and the habits of animals, and instead of football clubs, traditions and preferences of neighboring tribes.

      And instead of pop music - native tunes. wink
  • Riv
    Riv 7 October 2015 08: 36 New
    +4
    Well, once again connect physics to the case? :)

    Notice the two cutouts on the tip of the ancient dart. It seems that they were intended for fastening to the shaft and there seem to be no other reasonable options ... But there is a nuance: the tip attached to it, as shown in the figure, will perfectly hold the force arising from the impact, but you can pull it off the spear with your hand even without gloves. A small hook at the end will not help much. For a dart, this is even good - the tip will remain in the shield, or in the wound and the enemy will not be able to throw the dart back. But in close combat, such a weapon is almost useless.

    That is, the spears were then clearly divided into propellant and combatant. But in the Iliad such a division is not traced. Everything is universal there: threw it, struck the shield, the tip bent, then you beat with the sword. But what prevented even a bent tip from being removed from the shield? So the design was in the way! The sod is stronger - one pole will remain in the hands. Then why are constant throws described with almost 100% risk of being left without a spear? But because Homer describes exclusively the fights of the leaders. The naked infantry kept their spears. She had nothing more. And why shouldn’t you throw your rich leader? He has a lot of copies.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 7 October 2015 09: 58 New
      +7
      What does physics have to do with it ?! Just to blurt out? Your cliches: "turn on the brain", "turn on the physics" - with such frequent use, they already cause a gag reflex. Moreover, in your posts with appeals you persistently demonstrate utter amateurism. Including physics, and in its practical application.
      But there is a nuance: the tip, wound as shown in the figure, will perfectly hold the force arising from the impact, but you can pull it off the spear with your hand, even without a glove.
      Do not try to spread your own curvature to others. All of it is well and tightly attached there. In previous articles about weapons and armor, you never answered my question: how many swords did you hold in your hands for your life, how many armor did you make or wear on yourself?
      But in the Iliad such a division is not traced.
      Such a division can be traced back to the era of glaciation. Do not smack nonsense. She is in pain.
      pierced the shield, the tip bent,
      You, as usual, dump everything in a heap: ordinary spears, Roman pilums ... It is indestructible in you.
      The naked infantry kept their spears.
      The completely bare-backed infantry had light weapons: slings, darts, clubs. The prosperous heavy infantry had quite normal spears. As well as a sufficiently developed armor complex. But you do not know.
      And why shouldn’t you throw your rich leader? He has a lot of copies.
      And here it is. When the leaders duel, the servants could very well submit spare spears, blades, shields ...
      1. Riv
        Riv 7 October 2015 12: 58 New
        -4
        Yes ... Turn on the brain sometimes, if of course it still exists.

        I held three swords in my hands. Battle reconstructions, I mean. Training Mao and Jiang will not be taken into account. In addition to them, the nunchucks (the only thing decently learned to wave), battle flail, whip, bo, naginata. I tried on Maha-Dhanur (with this, by the way, the love of weapons began). Could not pull. :(

        Nonsense, I can not advise you anything. You are a great specialist on it and better versed. Didn’t you just stutter that bronze weapons are not heavier than steel? Here are three jiang swords. On the left is steel, on the right is bronze. The strength of the blades is approximately the same. Which ones are harder?
        1. kalibr
          7 October 2015 16: 32 New
          +2
          I contacted one of the English gunsmiths - a specialist in bronze swords. It will be about this stuff. He makes copies of museum artifacts for museums and universities. By weight, they are lightweight, lighter than iron or their weight alone! Moreover, the metal is taken the same, which shows the analysis. That is, the copy number is almost 100%. Steel weapons - swords, swords are much harder! Moreover, the effectiveness was checked and cutting and cutting ...
          1. Riv
            Riv 7 October 2015 17: 35 New
            -2
            Well then, again, a full-scale experiment for this gunsmith. Let him take any of his product and shy away at it laden, as in a battle against a shield. And we look at the result curve.
            A bronze product with the same weight as steel - well, you need the same ... :))) A copy can be made even from aluminum. It will be light and brilliant - a sight for sore eyes. They can even chop. Three times. And cut the paper. A real Jedi sword.

            Above photo: three jiang swords. The same purpose, the same design and approximately the same strength. Which one is the lightest is clear even to a hedgehog. Actually, they have only one difference from the remodelers - this weapon was made for battle, and not for shop windows.
            1. kalibr
              7 October 2015 21: 27 New
              +4
              Stubbornness is not a good thing. People get a lot of money for their work. Those who give them want to have an exact copy of the museum exhibit. These are not only private individuals, but also museums themselves - it is becoming more and more popular to have an artifact and its recovered copy, as well as universities. Therefore, aluminum copies are not needed by anyone. And “there” people are by no means fools, about fools there it is to Zadornov. And check this weapon in nature, on the wheelhouse. All this is documented and studied. And in this their historical science is stronger than ours, because it is richer. You may not believe this, but ... it will not change anything. As they say, some have their own party, others have their own. "Your mine did not understand." By the way, go to the site of the Metropolitan Museum and see the exhibits. There are dimensions and weight. Bronze and iron swords ...
              1. Riv
                Riv 8 October 2015 05: 53 New
                -4
                Why be surprised that so many Fomenkovites divorced? In historical scientific everyday life, it really is full of inconsistencies. And of course, a person who "gets a lot of money for work" will never say that he has received this money for his whole life.

                Tin and copper are much easier to obtain than steel. Bronze pours better and is easier to handle than steel. A bronze product is less susceptible to corrosion, and critical iron rusts at a speed of half a millimeter per year if it is not painted. So why did the whole world switch to iron as soon as the slightest opportunity appeared for this? You can refer to the "authorities of weapons" as much as you like, but a person who has made at least a knife with his own hands will only laugh at you.

                It is likely to explain to a person that steel is stronger than bronze, only by the Musashi method. :)
                1. brn521
                  brn521 8 October 2015 11: 50 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Riv
                  So why did the whole world switch to iron as soon as the slightest opportunity appeared for this?

                  Due to its prevalence.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 8 October 2015 16: 10 New
                    0
                    Well, silicon is even more common than iron. And computers have begun to do recently. Strange, right? What prevented the ancient Cretan from soldering the processor?
                    1. brn521
                      brn521 9 October 2015 12: 35 New
                      0
                      Quote: Riv
                      Well, silicon is even more common than iron. And computers have begun to do recently. Strange, right?

                      According to the technology of production and processing, iron is much closer to bronze and copper than the production of computers. It’s like comparing the size of an asteroid and a planetary system. For household needs, ordinary marsh iron is enough, which is reproduced by bacteria in literally decades. And even from such disgusting iron in quality, objects were obtained that were more effective and convenient than bone, stone, and even copper.
                  2. 4thParasinok
                    4thParasinok 11 November 2015 11: 57 New
                    0
                    Quote: brn521
                    Due to its prevalence.

                    not really, a good bronze weapon was much more expensive than an iron one. And there were fewer bronze specialists then. At the first stage, the iron won due to the price and availability for the user, and not due to the amount of iron.
              2. Riv
                Riv 8 October 2015 06: 02 New
                0
                To clear my conscience, I must say that it is really possible to make a bronze product that is not inferior in strength to steel. BUT! It will be necessary to carefully maintain the composition of the alloy, the content of alloying additives in the range of tenths of a percent, and after casting to conduct mechanical and heat treatment under strictly defined conditions. The ancient (and not so ancient) blacksmith could not provide any of this, and he could get the properties of the alloy he needed only by chance.

                And still, such bronze will be inferior to steel, in hardness.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 11 November 2015 12: 05 New
                  0
                  Quote: Riv
                  And still, such bronze will be inferior to steel, in hardness.

                  Depends on bronze and steel. two on material day. And there is such an indicator as viscosity. A solid sword but with a slippery viscosity will simply break when it meets, like your dzyans or katanas made centuries before the 17th. That is why the Japanese fencing school came about, and the dzyans were dumb, they only pricked, and the chopping blows were intended only to repel internal organs or break ribs.
            2. Aljavad
              Aljavad 8 October 2015 21: 10 New
              +2
              Above photo: three jiang swords. The same purpose same design


              What do you have with your eyes ???? belay
          2. brn521
            brn521 8 October 2015 11: 43 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            Steel weapons - swords, swords are much heavier! Moreover, the effectiveness was checked by cutting and cutting ...

            Yes, the specifics are interesting. Since it is known that simple tin bronze does not shine with its characteristics. And the price again. The toad will strangle for trying to sharpen and polish the blade in a new way after the battle. By the way, perhaps this is the real reason for using mainly piercing weapons, if it is made of bronze or copper. I remember at school they told us that the copper and bronze axes were not sharpened, but cast again. The tip can already be beaten off, riveted again, without loss of material and quality. And with a chopping edge, this probably will not work, the broken edge will turn out to be clumsy.
            In addition, specialists (such as Clements) claim that training in cutting a tree with full-fledged combat swords with cutting control is the key to training the right skill.
            1. brn521
              brn521 8 October 2015 12: 10 New
              +1
              Quote: brn521
              And with a chopping edge, this probably will not work, the broken edge will turn out to be clumsy.

              I also remembered on this issue. There was a crappy Chinese table knife. accordingly sharpened poorly. So I beat the edge with a hammer to him, then grind-smoothed. Well, how the braid is riveted, who else remembers. Repulsed a couple of times, then this business simply began to cough up.
              1. Riv
                Riv 8 October 2015 16: 05 New
                +1
                But this is already stopudovo because they did not beat correctly. Nagartovka is a rather complicated technology. If you just beat the dope with a hammer along the blade, then this will lead to the development of microcracks and spalling. In general, for rolled steel, fretting is usually carried out only after heat treatment.
                1. brn521
                  brn521 9 October 2015 11: 57 New
                  0
                  Quote: Riv
                  But this is already stopudovo because they did not beat correctly.

                  I don’t argue, but in any way you won’t get it right, because knife, not a scythe. And the material is different. In fact, I tried to mold a rather thick blade of soft stainless steel with a cold forging with the back of the hammer to the cutting edge. Almost happened. But it rolls with force a couple of times, and then you have to completely grind this thing, because jambs accumulate in the form of irregularities, cracks develop. The resulting "rags" in a new way can not be beaten off. Stitching in the case of copper and broz weapons is unacceptable, because expensive stuff. As a result, the same conclusion. Spears and rapiers / thrusting swords are more durable in operation, and swords and axes quite often have to be re-melted.
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 8 October 2015 21: 09 New
          +2
          Jian is just a Chinese straight sword. The generic name. Over a dozen centuries has undergone evolution. It was both military and ceremonial. Comparing is ridiculous. In the photo, bronze - one-handed. Steel - obviously two-handed. The fencing technique is different. In one photo - clearly due to a misunderstanding.
          What to do? Around shkolota and online education!
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 11 November 2015 11: 51 New
      0
      Quote: Riv
      Notice the two cutouts on the tip of the ancient dart. It seems that they were intended for fastening to the shaft and there seem to be no other reasonable options ... But there is a nuance: the tip attached to it, as shown in the figure, will perfectly hold the force arising from the impact, but you can pull it off the spear with your hand even without gloves. A small hook at the end will not help much. For a dart, this is even good - the tip will remain in the shield, or in the wound and the enemy will not be able to throw the dart back. But in close combat, such a weapon is almost useless.

      immediately understandable - SPECIAL! only in Europe you didn’t use bamboo, which you are used to, but on the same pear, walnut or aspen (after aspen, the aspen groans stone in hardness) a shaft (and there are other materials) are made recesses under the winding. and in the end, the tip does not move as long as you don’t pull it.
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 7 October 2015 10: 04 New
    0
    The first, which could reach a length of 3 to 5 m, and be used mainly in the early periods, even if their use is confirmed in the Iliad.
    Dear Vyacheslav, is it possible to explain in more detail, according to sources, including regarding the use of copies of more than 3 meters for the era and region under consideration?
    1. kalibr
      7 October 2015 10: 16 New
      +1
      Good day! Will not work! My problem is that a lot of material. In scientific articles in scientific journals refers to every fact, numbers, name. Writing is so very difficult, and reading is even harder. And the volume is growing at times. Therefore, it happens that historiography data must be "roughened" (as the instrument readings), to give one reference to a number of indicators. In this case, I can assure you that I did not come up with it, but I can’t say where the numbers are now. If this interests you very much, you will have to search. Look at the fresco, there are just very long spears showing, and from where the fresco is written!
  • IS-80
    IS-80 7 October 2015 12: 35 New
    +2
    It is possible that such a fastener was fragile and easily “loose”, so such tips were soon (relatively, of course!) Replaced by another - petiolate.

    And that's not why. And because the penetration of such tips is higher. Plus increases the working area of ​​the tip. Plus less metal consumption per tip with a comparable level of damage.
    The tip itself has also become stronger. A noticeable longitudinal rib appeared on it.

    Hmmm. Yeah. Has appeared. You look at the first two tips. There are ribs there too. And the tips themselves are a masterpiece of engineering from the Bronze Age.
    1. Riv
      Riv 7 October 2015 14: 23 New
      0
      Good. More information for consideration ...
      How will you attach the slotted tip to the pole? The wire was then made, but ... only gold. The skin is elastic, and how many times can you miss a strap through a slot? Two or three no more. It will turn out rather weak. Flax is fragile. Horse hair has a funny property: it lengthens when wet. That is, either the tip does not sit firmly, or falls off in the rain.

      Now imagine hitting a spear on a shield. Of course, he has kinetic energy inferior to the automaton pool, but not by an order of magnitude. Only three times. The inertia of the shaft at the moment of impact will simply cut off any fiber that you so wound with love in the slots and roll the tip to the side. That is precisely why the tips with tulle, which encircled the shaft, came into use.
      1. IS-80
        IS-80 7 October 2015 15: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: Riv
        The inertia of the shaft at the moment of impact will simply cut off any fiber that you so wound with love in the slots and roll the tip to the side.

        This is because you are badly attached. You take a more responsible approach to the matter and everything will be fine, nothing will collapse.
        1. Riv
          Riv 7 October 2015 16: 13 New
          -1
          Well then ... As always, I recommend conducting a field experiment. Pick up a hacksaw (steel, modern) and saw in the pole, which will be a shaft, a longitudinal groove under the tip. Happened? Wonderful. Now remove the saw. You are in the Bronze Age. You need to make the same groove without a modern tool.
          Start, and we will laugh. :)))

          What narrow groove does not work? It turns out too wide? Well, no one promised it would be easy. Now try to securely fix the tip from the picture in a wide groove, or try to split the same brush and fix the tip in the splinter. Leather ribbon and bone glue. Inspect the finished product. Estimate where some Odysseus will stick it to you if you offer him your product.
          Give up the idea of ​​becoming an ancient blacksmith. :)
          1. IS-80
            IS-80 7 October 2015 16: 41 New
            +1
            Quote: Riv
            Give up the idea of ​​becoming an ancient blacksmith. :)

            And I actually have not yet intended to become a blacksmith, much less ancient. It’s you trying to try on his laurels (soot, anvil, hammer). You do not succeed. And you are trying to summarize and attribute your unsuccessful private experience to everyone in the world.
            1. Riv
              Riv 7 October 2015 16: 58 New
              -1
              Well it is more like Yes. :) I had to work with a hammer, and with a soldering iron, and a saw, and even the discharge of the welder is. I know what I'm talking about. And your approach is simple: I don’t know, I don’t know how and don’t want to be able to. Like the entire 2000 generation.
              Well ... So be it: I will let you have an opinion. In exchange, I will also have your opinion.
              1. kalibr
                7 October 2015 17: 45 New
                +4
                Well, you swear. Material is being prepared on the basis of information from THREE re-enactors from England and the USA, and first-class ones. See for yourself ... They ate the dog on bronze!
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 7 October 2015 21: 36 New
            +4
            Quote: Riv
            Well then ... As always, I recommend conducting a field experiment. Pick up a hacksaw (steel, modern) and saw in the pole, which will be a shaft, a longitudinal groove under the tip. Happened? Wonderful. Now remove the saw. You are in the Bronze Age. You need to make the same groove without a modern tool.
            Start, and we will laugh. :)))

            In the Bronze Age saws were. And even in stone. And in the 20 century, one type in Latin America sawed a grate in a prison with threads from socks, saliva, and concrete dust. You can laugh.
            1. kalibr
              7 October 2015 21: 39 New
              +2
              Yes, there was one “expert” who doubted that there were razors in the Bronze Age and that people shaved them. Were! Although the form is unusual! People ... they love comfort!
              1. Glot
                Glot 7 October 2015 21: 58 New
                +2
                Yes, there was one "expert",


                Don’t remember the devil for the night ... laughing
              2. Riv
                Riv 8 October 2015 07: 55 New
                -3
                It's funny, but even the ancient Greeks knew how to do without razors, simply plucking their hair. Here they can be understood. Those who wish can try to shave with a copper razor, before that, independently tucking it on the belt.
                It will probably be less painful. :)))
              3. Aljavad
                Aljavad 8 October 2015 21: 20 New
                0
                Yes, there was one “expert” who doubted that there were razors in the Bronze Age and that people shaved them. Were! Although the form is unusual! People ... they love comfort!


                In Babylon, they even removed the eyesore with a bronze razor.
                See "The laws of Hamurapi."
            2. Riv
              Riv 8 October 2015 16: 07 New
              -1
              And also local seasoning. Without ketchup, the focus would not have passed.
              I understand what you are hinting at. The birthplace of ketchup is ancient Crete.
          3. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 11 November 2015 12: 16 New
            0
            Quote: Riv
            Happened? Wonderful. Now remove the saw. You are in the Bronze Age. You need to make the same groove without a modern tool.
            Start, and we will laugh. :)))

            we have already seen such "laughter", and more than once. I remember they say that the aliens made the pyramids, only the people saw these plates, with which the pyramids are partially lined with ordinary copper strips in hand and quicker than with modern hard alloy wheels.
            If you are not familiar with the technology of those times, then no one could say anything, only by the fact that you are not capable.
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 11 November 2015 12: 10 New
          0
          Quote: IS-80
          then because you are badly attached. You take a more responsible approach to the matter and everything will be fine, nothing will collapse.

          plus there are still such "threads" as rawhide soaked leather straps, or zhely. They did not pass this in China.
  • Jan Ivanov
    Jan Ivanov 8 October 2015 00: 34 New
    +1
    Thanks, interesting, as usual. I would read with pleasure about the tactics and actions in the ranks of these comrades with spears, swords and other bows. )
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 8 October 2015 07: 42 New
    +1
    Thank you, Vyacheslav, for another great article! You ++++++++++++!
  • Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 9 October 2015 11: 50 New
    +1
    All perfectly! But I would like to pay attention to the helmet on the spearman !! Man has always sought to protect his head !! And in the series Vikings stupid characters run around with their heads uncovered !!! Do not watch Amerov historical series !! Bullshit!!
  • Stilet
    Stilet 9 October 2015 23: 29 New
    +1
    Looking at the “warrior’s march”, we can definitely say that these are not strange pennants, but carts for carrying food, most likely barley. The leaf-shaped type of copy tips is the most common type in the world.
  • Ivan Ring
    Ivan Ring 19 October 2015 22: 25 New
    0
    Interesting article. The spear is the main weapon of the infantry, for some reason many forgotten.