Expert: which is better, BMP "Armata" or Israeli armored personnel carrier "Timer"?

103
The heavy BMP T-15 at the present time can only be compared with the heavy Israeli armored carrier “Namer”, since in other countries the development of heavy BMPs, although conducted, has not progressed further than the prototypes or prototypes. Most of the characteristics of "Almaty" are not yet known, but after analyzing the available images, military expert Lev Romanov undertook to draw "certain conclusions" in his article on the site Messenger of Mordovia.

Expert: which is better, BMP "Armata" or Israeli armored personnel carrier "Timer"?


“Common to T-15 and“ Namer ”is the available layout: engine compartment, control compartment and troop compartment. On both machines taken significant measures to strengthen the bottom, roof. Although there are no side screens on the single video “Armata”, but attachments for them along the entire length of the body are visible. And if “Namer” only recently decided to install an active protection complex, then T-15 already has it on the first samples, ”writes Romanov.

In his opinion, from the very beginning, the developers of the BMP paid great attention to firepower, “which is realized by installing a remote-controlled module on it with an 30-mm cannon, a twin machine gun and new variants of the Kornet ATGM, more long-range and having a more powerful warhead” . The ammunition located in the module is isolated from the landing force and the crew, and in the event of an explosion it will not harm them.

In the Israeli armored vehicle in the presence of only a remotely controlled machine gun 12,7 mm. The issue of the 30-mm gun is only being discussed.

The designers of the T-15 tried to make sure that, while maintaining high security characteristics, the weight of the machine did not exceed 50 tons. “Russia is a large country, equipment must be transferred by rail, aviation, and therefore a radical increase in weight is not welcome, "the author writes.

The Israelis were less worried about this issue, so their Namer weighs 60 tons. In many ways, the expert believes, such a mass is due to archaic suspension elements “in the form of vertically installed springs (a similar design was used in Soviet tanks BT, T-34, etc.).



“Yes, such a suspension is theoretically distinguished by greater maintainability in field conditions, but is not reliable enough and is also bulky and heavy. The same can be said about the other elements of the heavy armored personnel carrier chassis, ”Romanov said.

On the "Armata" in the chassis used as time-tested and exploited solutions, and completely new developments that provide a good smoothness.

“If we talk about mobility, then here the advantage is on the side of“ Armata ”, suppose that the engine power of both cars is the same –1200 hp Then it turns out that the specific power of our BMP is higher, and it is capable of developing much more 60 km / h, declared by the Israeli BMP, ”the author writes.

“According to Russian military experts, T-15 surpasses Namer in most characteristics.” True, the Russian machine still exists in the status of prototypes and only after some time will go to the troops. And the “Israeli” is already being mass-produced and tested in combat conditions, ”concludes Romanov.
103 comments
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  1. +91
    April 8 2015 13: 43
    Is it too early to argue about Armata and ...? Let it appear first.
    1. +22
      April 8 2015 13: 47
      It will begin now ..)))) bully
      1. +14
        April 8 2015 13: 52
        began....
        1. +8
          April 8 2015 14: 05
          suppose that the engine power of both cars is the same –1200 hp. Then it turns out that the specific power of our infantry fighting vehicle is higher, and it is capable of developing much more than 60 km / h declared by the Israeli infantry fighting vehicle, ”the author writes

          Is not a fact. The maximum speed does not depend directly on the specific power.
          1. +18
            April 8 2015 14: 53
            ===============================================))))))) )))
          2. +8
            April 8 2015 15: 17
            Quote: Mahmut
            Is not a fact. The maximum speed does not depend directly on the specific power.

            Enlighten pozhta: WHAT DIRECTLY DEPENDS ON MAXIMUM SPEED?
            ==============================
            but then somehow I begin to doubt my education, obtained under the USSR
            1. Power characterizes the speed of completion of work. We use the formula A = Fs and substitute it in the power formula

            2. But v = s / t- is the speed of movement.
            Thus, we obtain the relationship between power and speed

            3. No, of course, if you take YOURSELVES and LOW, then yes:


            4. Road vehicles at speeds of the order of 80 km / h have a specific power in the range of 11 kW / t (15 hp / t) for passenger cars, while at a speed 2 times higher, it exceeds 44 kW / t (60 hp / t). A racing car at a speed of about 650 km / h must have a specific power of up to 588 kW / t (800 hp / t), hit is somewhat lower than the value corresponding to a quadratic dependence of power on speed. -This is due to aerodynamics, tires, lack of slides / hills, maximum speed at maximum power for ha (graph NV)
            1. +7
              April 8 2015 15: 46
              Quote: opus
              Enlighten pozh-ta: WHAT DOES THE MAXIMUM SPEED DEPEND DIRECTLY?

              from gearbox?
              1. +2
                April 8 2015 18: 03
                Quote: Kars
                from gearbox?

                1. Gearbox is still power (traction)

                PPC - only a feature (feature) of the internal combustion engine working cycle




                2. Electric motor?

                Means of transport with steam or electric (tram, trolleybus, electric car) engines with high adaptability and hyperbolic (for steam) and parabolic (for DC motors) traction characteristicusually performed without CP.

                Well, except for the coasting and backing, without phase change

                3: Czech amphibious SET tank from Skoda Works on a lightweight LT vz.35 chassis

                ICE Avia TR-12 114 kW (155 HP); 108 kW generator; 2X electric motor 48 kW

                with an electric motor, a gearbox he did not need.

                Like others



                Thunderbolt armored cannon system, hydromechanical transmission seems to be there (but for power take-off for other needs)

                1. +5
                  April 8 2015 18: 25
                  Quote: opus
                  1. Gearbox is still power (traction)

                  I’ll tell you easier than you do a bunch of things
                  100 engine - hp

                  Gearbox No.1 allows you to develop a maximum speed of 100 km / h
                  gearbox number 2 90
                  and gearbox obsalyutno the same principle for simplicity

                  that's all arithmetic and you climbed into the jungle
                  1. +1
                    April 8 2015 19: 33
                    Quote: Kars
                    that's all arithmetic and you climbed into the jungle

                    Will we change the checkpoint No.1 to the checkpoint No.2?
                    There is still a mover (you can change the gusli No.1 to the gusli No.2)
                    The question was "how does power (specifically specific) affect the speed -TS


                    Answer Power (ceteris paribus) ДУ - resistance of the medium.PPC has nothing to do with it.
                    1. +4
                      April 8 2015 19: 59
                      Quote: opus
                      Answer Power (ceteris paribus)

                      some wilds
                      the statement in the article that they give is not an axiom, and it is not an undeniable fact that Armata BMP can reach speeds higher than 60. It is quite possible that with a higher specific power the speed will be lower.
                      1. Rex
                        +3
                        April 8 2015 20: 35
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: opus
                        Answer Power (ceteris paribus)

                        and not an indisputable fact that Armata BMP will be able to reach speeds above 60. It is quite possible that with a higher specific power the speed will be less.


                        I am sure that it will develop without problems. 65-70 on the highway has long been the norm.
                        It may even be 5-10 km higher, but such an increase in reality will not give much.
                      2. +3
                        April 8 2015 20: 39
                        Quote: Rex
                        I am sure that it will develop without problems. 65-70 on the highway has long been the norm.

                        maybe it will crush it or maybe not.
                        For example, are you aware that the German T-3 developed a speed more than the T-34?
                      3. Rex
                        0
                        April 8 2015 21: 28
                        What about 2?
                        What is the main tank since 1980 guards .. had or has a maximum speed of less than 60?
                        Well, maybe Challenger - they have always been slower.
                        Most have 65 and up. No argument in favor of the T-15 getting out.
                      4. +1
                        April 8 2015 21: 46
                        Quote: Rex
                        What about 2?

                        Well, as an indicator that a large specific power does not guarantee a high speed
                        Quote: Rex
                        What is the main tank with 198

                        Well, we don’t have tanks. although it doesn’t matter.
                      5. Rex
                        0
                        April 8 2015 23: 25
                        Well, as an indicator that a large specific power does not guarantee a high speed
                        An example does not quite fit.
                        In our case, we are talking about the machines of one tank-building school, with obvious succession.
                        T-90 of various modifications has a speed of 60-68. T-14 is supposed to be in the range of 50-60 tons. with an increase in power of 30-50%.
                        T-15 was built on its base.
                        It is not known what is said in her TK about the maximum speed, but I would be surprised if it says less than 65 km / h.

                        We do not have tanks
                        Yes, we are talking about the T-15 at a tank base.
                      6. +2
                        April 8 2015 23: 47
                        Quote: Kars
                        not an indisputable fact that Armata BMP will be able to reach speeds higher than 60

                        Well, to these things I answered

                        In general (this is purely my lack of information), if it is an armata (and heavy armored personnel carrier on its platform):

                        I’m very disappointed
            2. 0
              April 8 2015 22: 14
              Quote: opus
              A racing car at a speed of about 650 km / h should have a specific power of up to 588 kW / t (800 hp / t)


              Formula 1 race cars have a power of over 800 hp, with a mass of 715 kg. However, on straight lines the speed is within 330 km / h
              1. +2
                April 9 2015 00: 05
                Quote: The Cat
                . However, at direct speeds within 330 km / h

                1. But almost throughout the entire race 1,5 hours, show at 300km / h
                Capacities (or rather engine volume) of Formula XX cars LIMITED ARTIFICIALLY LIMITEDregulations


                Formula 1 uses four-stroke V-shaped six-cylinder turbocharged engines with a camber angle of 90 °. Engine displacement must not exceed 1,6 liters.

                with 1600ssm (vaz?) you will not squeeze out a lot

                2: Honda's official test pilot, Alan van de Merve, on the 7 mile straight showed a top speed of 354,975 km / h and set an official speed record for Formula 1 cars.
                There is already playing aerodynamics and grip

                3: The fastest mass-produced passenger car is the French Bugatti Veyron Super Sport hypercar - the maximum speed of the 431,072 car is km / h (BUT FOR A SHORT TIME)



                Weight: 1888 kg, 1200 l. With

                4. The fastest road passenger car is the Ford Badd GT. The speed he achieved is 455,817 km / h. and 1700l / s


                mass, like 1700kg

                5. The fastest diesel-powered car is the JCB Dieselmax. 23 August 2006 year, on the surface of the dried lake Bonneville (Bonneville) prototype, under the direction of the driver Andy Green (Andy Green), set a new world speed record for diesel cars - 563,418 km / h.



                2x JCB444 by 750l / s, mass of car 2700kg
                1. 0
                  April 9 2015 10: 22
                  Quote: opus
                  The fastest production passenger car is the French Bugatti Veyron Super Sport hypercar - the maximum speed of the car is 431,072 km / h (BUT SHORT TIME)

                  This record was not counted, since Veron rode with a disabled speed limiter, which is categorically impossible to disable on serial models.
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2015 12: 37
                    Quote: MACCABI-TLV
                    This record did not count, as Veron rode with the speed limiter disabled

                    So after all, with the OFF regulator, and not with the solid fuel accelerator hidden under the bottom?
                    A record is a statistic.
                    I'm talking about the fact: the relationship of power and speed.
                    Quote: MACCABI-TLV
                    which on serial models is absolutely impossible to turn off.

                    ?
                    Even officially (TUV homologation) is turned off. Moreover, it’s easy, like showing TV while driving (only unofficially)
                    All (!) Cars in Germany are produced with a limit of 240km / h (§ 3 Abs. 3 StVO für PKW), although the speed on the autobahn is unlimited.
                    1. -1
                      April 9 2015 13: 57
                      not in the case of Veron,
                      Quote: opus
                      Even officially (TUV homologation) is turned off. Moreover, it’s easy, like showing TV while driving (only unofficially)

                      his speed limiter does not limit the engine and transmission, but tires. smile
                2. 0
                  April 9 2015 22: 10
                  Quote: opus
                  Quote: The Cat
                  . However, at direct speeds within 330 km / h

                  1. But almost throughout the entire race 1,5 hours, show at 300km / h
                  Capacities (or rather engine volume) of Formula 1 cars are artificially limited by regulation



                  Have you ever watched Formula 1? The average speed for the entire race is about 160-180 km / h.

                  And where does the engine volume or regulations? You said about the ratio of mass to engine power. And the estimated speed.
                  So the Formula race cars exceed the parameters you specified, but do not reach that speed. You either form phrases more clearly, or introduce additional amendments wink
              2. 0
                April 26 2015 14: 29
                If F1 races took place on ovals, then the maximum speeds would be higher. For a better lap time, it is more important to have speed in corners rather than in straight lines.
            3. +1
              April 9 2015 02: 14
              I already thought one here disagrees with the USSR tower, it turns out not =) the old guard is not this for you =)
        2. +8
          April 8 2015 15: 55
          Quote: 2sila
          began....

          laughing
          Armata or intention? what's better? The first answer came to mind - Kalashnikov assault rifle laughing
          1. 0
            April 10 2015 23: 13
            Quote: RBLip
            Armata or intention? what's better? The first answer came to mind - Kalashnikov assault rifle


            Then the ATGM
      2. +3
        April 8 2015 18: 48
        It reminds the eternal dispute of the regulars of video salons of the times of perestroika: who - whom? Schwarzenegger - Stalonne or vice versa?

        Here they will meet (God forbid!) - then we will find out whose BTR-BMP is better.
    2. +3
      April 8 2015 13: 47
      no intentions exactly did more.
      1. Bombardier
        +15
        April 8 2015 13: 52
        So many letters, and at the end write:
        "... True, the Russian vehicle still exists in the status of prototypes and only after a while will go to the troops. And the" Israeli "is already being mass-produced and tested in combat conditions," Romanov concludes.

        Let the car be born!
    3. +1
      April 8 2015 13: 50
      Isn't it too late to talk about Namer? Judging by the article, the archaic in the hodovka is armed in no way, weighs 60 tons. Drive homeless with ancient Kalash .....
      1. Viktor Kudinov
        +4
        April 8 2015 13: 55
        Wait and see! Why argue, hot Finnish guys! wassat
        1. +2
          April 8 2015 14: 04
          But where will we see that ?! Where is the Israeli armored fighting with what other armored vehicles? It remains only to measure the characteristics.
          1. +11
            April 8 2015 14: 28
            http://topwar.ru/user/2sila/ Намер создан для безопасной доставки пехоты к месту боя и эвакуации при необходимости, пушку не ставят специально чтоб горячие командиры не вздумали использовать его вместо танка. Так что в танковых боях он использоваться не может по определению.
            1. 0
              April 8 2015 14: 45
              That is understandable! But in any other battle, NAMER cannot be used without the support of tanks and aircraft. I understand that the Israelis are fighting strictly according to the charter, but you never know what it takes, it will back it up. NAMER generally does not have the slightest opportunity to conduct an offensive battle even against a motorized rifle squad, a platoon.
              1. +6
                April 8 2015 14: 52
                Quote: 2sila
                I understand that the Israelis are fighting strictly according to the charter,

                Persuaded, show me the Israeli charter.
                1. +1
                  April 8 2015 15: 10
                  Persuaded, show me where I wrote "Israeli charter" or "charter" ...
                  But to be honest, I do not know if there is an "Israeli charter", but I am ready to believe the Chief of the Personnel Department of the Israel Defense Forces, Major General Orna Barbiwai, that there is one. "Orna Barbivai has made amendments to the paragraph of the IDF charter on the" social activities of military personnel. "The amendment allows servicemen in their free time and in civilian clothes to take part in mass events that have no political overtones.
                  JOKE!

                  The participation of military personnel in gay parades is now permitted by the IDF command without the need for special permission. Participation in social events, such as protests against the high cost of living, requires the permission of the personnel department.

                  At the same time, participation in such events will be prohibited to officers with the rank of lieutenant colonel and above, holding representative positions.

                  Note that over the past years, at almost all gay pride parades held in Israel, one could see participants in military uniform, and sometimes this uniform was "decorated" with various attributes that emphasize the participant's belonging to the LGBT community (lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgender ).
                2. 0
                  April 8 2015 15: 20
                  Yes, I’m also making mistakes, and this is also an occasion to talk nothing.
              2. +3
                April 8 2015 19: 55
                Quote: 2sila
                That is understandable! But in any other battle, NAMER cannot be used without the support of tanks and aircraft. I understand that the Israelis are fighting strictly according to the charter, but you never know what it takes, it will back it up. NAMER generally does not have the slightest opportunity to conduct an offensive battle even against a motorized rifle squad, a platoon.

                And what did he forget on the battlefield without tanks? Let me remind you that this is the vehicle of the second line of tank brigades. In general, after the reduction of armored vehicles, the IDF by 2025 should have 2000 Mk2 / 3/4 and 520 Namers.
                Well, a squad or platoon, if they attack Namer without a landing, will meet the Katlanit OWS 12.7 module (Mini Samson ROWS.) I will tell you that Spikes, they prefer not to put on the module in the IDF, but transfer them to the landing. But each module has an option, which is installed on "Namer" by default. So it is better for the infantry not to approach it closer than 1.5 km. 12.7mm Browning is a serious machine
                1. 0
                  April 9 2015 00: 12
                  Yeah, Spike on the infantry - it's cool, as right now, Azov is sniffing at the militia with Fagots in Shyrokyne, but I don't want to, and Spike can. I did not understand about the presence of NAMERs in the second line of tank brigades. None of the three regular tank brigades has an infantry (motorized rifle) battalion in the brigade, and only by 2015 will one infantry platoon appear. It means that there are no NAMES ... Naryl, what about the presence of NAMES only at Givati. That is, for the limited task that I proposed requires the involvement of forces, part of the forces, two brigades - armored and infantry? Well, I mean that NUMBERS on the battlefield without tanks are not intended. Or does Givati ​​have tanks in the infantry battalions? As I understood from the NAMERs, they are not enough and they are not replenished a lot, but mainly they are fighting on Zelda, Pumas and Akhzarits. And what have you heard about the Vampire NAME hit in Gaza or is it still not him? In short, as I understand it, the IDF want NUMBER all the same for the city, and for the "field" the Strikers.
                2. 0
                  April 9 2015 00: 59
                  Golani has KSH NAM. One ..... Just kidding!
            2. -7
              April 8 2015 17: 58
              I can’t laugh) After a safe delivery, they need to get out ... and die with a diaper, because there is no more security)))
              Quote: wanderer
              they don’t put a gun on purpose so that hot commanders
              - I laugh again and I can’t) There are marmosets down and they don’t care and can play and ... kill?) In Soviet times, KAMAZ trucks with tipper bodies specifically limited the body volume so that people would not load more chassis ... So what? Of the kibbutzim they are calling on collective farmers who were born in the USSR and they don’t have a head?)
            3. +5
              April 8 2015 18: 32
              http://topwar.ru/user/2sila/ Намер создан для безопасной доставки пехоты к месту боя и эвакуации при необходимости, пушку не ставят специально чтоб горячие командиры невздумали использовать его вместо танка. Так что в танковых боях он использоваться не может по определению.Дану чепуха поставят если нужно будет
            4. The comment was deleted.
            5. +4
              April 8 2015 19: 29
              Quote: wanderer
              http://topwar.ru/user/2sila/ Намер создан для безопасной доставки пехоты к месту боя и эвакуации при необходимости, пушку не ставят специально чтоб горячие командиры невздумали использовать его вместо танка. Так что в танковых боях он использоваться не может по определению.

              But how did they set it. As an experiment. Only the SV command opposed sharply because, our infantry officers began to use the TBTR as BMP, which the AOI doctrine does not accept. And you can put it. It would be a desire.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +4
        April 8 2015 14: 01
        Quote: 2sila
        armed in any way, weighs 60 tons.

        With such a mass, he can only ride on the sand, in shit he will sit down with a bang, it's not for nothing that a "handle" was attached to him in front.
        1. +5
          April 8 2015 14: 05
          That in the sand will probably be nekamilfo, asphalt is more suitable, for example in Gaza.
      4. +23
        April 8 2015 14: 04
        Quote: 2sila
        Archaic hodovka judging by the article

        hydrostatic / pneumatic with a change in clearance
        1. +25
          April 8 2015 14: 11
          What can I say about the suspension .......- the girls are super!
        2. anakonda
          +8
          April 8 2015 14: 20
          From me a big plus for a powerful chassis wink
      5. +1
        April 8 2015 15: 06
        But aren't the intentions from the tanks redone?
    4. +6
      April 8 2015 13: 58
      But how early is it? On Khokhlonovosti dozens of armats are already pushing "valiant" kakly)))
    5. kelevra
      +4
      April 8 2015 14: 00
      Indeed, even the most insignificant performance characteristics are unknown, and here they are looking for advantages and disadvantages. Of course, at first glance, certain conclusions can be drawn, but, everything will show the battle, which I would not want to see from purely human considerations!
      1. +2
        April 8 2015 14: 07
        It is clear that I did not want to, but when did we see the last time the Israeli armored vehicles in a "tank" battle?
        1. +3
          April 8 2015 14: 27
          Forgive my dear friend but write something wrong, what is a tank battle? First, think about the purpose of BTT.
          Here, the crew and the airborne defense are protected from modern means of destruction of equipment, which a conventional infantry fighting vehicle cannot do. Plus, each project is adapted to the features of the theater of the region.
          The armata is made for maneuverable combat on rough terrain, Namer for VDN in urban conditions. It’s the same as comparing the Land Rover to a race car, it seems that the mass is the same and the wheels are four, but the purpose is different.
          1. +3
            April 8 2015 14: 31
            Thinking about it ..... I’ll recover, in a hurry - in GENERAL.
          2. +1
            April 8 2015 14: 35
            And I agree that these two models are incomparable. It is unlikely that Armata was developed for "police" operations to act against paramilitary units, but I am sure that, God forbid, for such, but it will look more confident.
    6. +4
      April 8 2015 14: 09
      Neither the tank itself (Armata) nor the BMP in the layout of Almaty has ever been seen. Especially in business. Here we see, then we reason.
    7. +1
      April 8 2015 15: 04
      what else to argue about?
      when it appears - there will be nothing to argue about
    8. +1
      April 8 2015 15: 39
      If appear
    9. 0
      April 8 2015 16: 44
      something you can peek right now HD:
    10. +7
      April 8 2015 17: 12
      Quote: Yuri Stupin
      Is it too early to argue about Armata and ...? Let it appear first.

      that's for sure, the author is another lover of arguing about a spherical horse in a vacum
      the author from me honestly earned minus for trembling about anything

      I swear, I'm already a little afraid of the appearance of Almaty on May 9 !!!

      I’ll probably just give myself the vow not to read discussions on this topic at least until the summer,
      it seems that for the first time the number of such opinions from the "experts" can be compared only with the size of the universe ...
    11. +1
      April 8 2015 18: 54
      Quote: Yuri Stupin
      Is it too early to argue about Armata and ...?

      Absolutely so!
      In addition, the expert is not credible.
      It is enough to read the pearls that "such a mass is due to archaic suspension elements" in the form of vertically installed springs (a similar design was used on Soviet tanks ".
      Why does he think springs are so much heavier than torsion bars?
      There is no data on the effectiveness of armor protection, etc.
      and indeed, Namer is an APC, not an IFV.
      There is nothing about the article.
      1. 0
        April 8 2015 21: 03
        And yet: what is the difference between armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles without verbiage?
    12. +1
      April 8 2015 22: 06
      where did THIS EXPERT come from ??? second-grader rivets article in word-e no worse
  2. +5
    April 8 2015 13: 47
    Usually such things are found out only in battle.
  3. +5
    April 8 2015 13: 49
    Ask Israeli experts? I think the opinion will be the opposite.
  4. +1
    April 8 2015 13: 49
    We look forward to when they show.
    Today, the Knights and Swifts swept overhead in the same ranks.
    Train for the parade.
  5. +7
    April 8 2015 13: 50
    Envy is a bad feeling ...
  6. +2
    April 8 2015 13: 52
    You can argue for a long time. Time will tell!
  7. +6
    April 8 2015 13: 53
    the characteristics of the armata from the photographs are the level of sofa psychics. It's too early to measure up with anything else.
  8. +4
    April 8 2015 13: 54
    After a year and a half of military operation, something else is hung on the T-15. Or change. Or will be removed. Experimental operation is one thing, everyday is another thing in the army. What can we say about combat use.
  9. +7
    April 8 2015 13: 55
    They are trying to run ahead of the engine again, only one video appeared in a few seconds, and they are already doing comparisons.
  10. +71
    April 8 2015 13: 56
    Instruction to srachs about Armata / "Kurganets / Boomerang

    1) Running:
    - If the chassis 6-katkovaya - "it is outdated and does not have the modernization potential."
    - If the chassis 7-katkovaya - "it is redundant and eats up all the weight gain."
    2) Exhaust:
    - If the exhaust side - "unmasks the tank and weakens the protection."
    - If the exhaust is from behind - “prevents movement in the column.”
    3) Optical channel:
    - If there is a direct optical channel - "complicates and increases the cost of construction, indicates the backwardness of Russian electronics."
    - If there is no direct optical channel - "the system is unreliable, with the slightest malfunction the tank goes blind."
    4) Protection:
    - "Protection boards is insufficient." No options.
    - "Protection of the roof is insufficient." No options.
    5) CAS:
    - If KAZ is not present - “a tank without KAZ cannot be considered promising.”
    - If there is a KAZ - “it unmasks a tank and makes it difficult to interact with infantry, the radar stations are vulnerable”.
    6) DZ:
    - "Shitty." No options.
    7) COEP:
    - "Horseradish." No options.
    Sighting system:
    - "Horseradish." No options.
    9) Anti-aircraft machine gun:
    “If 12,7 is“ redundant, outdated caliber, clear posons put 7,62. ”
    - If 7,62 is “insufficient outdated caliber, clear posons put 12,7.”
    10) Armament:
    - If 125 mm - "insufficient and outdated caliber for a promising tank."
    - If 152 mm - "excessive caliber, indicates the backwardness of Russian shells."
    11) Cost:
    - If less than 5 million dollars - "one-time cheap."
    - If more than 5 million dollars - "drank."
    12) Dimensions
    - a large tank - easy to get into it, nowhere to hide.
    - the tank is small - it is difficult to get out of it, the grass is high in the way.
    13) Automatic Loader
    there is - a tall black man charges faster, AZ glitches, lomnlezet.
    no - back to T-34, the black quickly gets tired.
    1. +8
      April 8 2015 14: 28
      Quote: Novel 1977
      Instruction to srachs about Armata / "Kurganets / Boomerang


      Amused good such an instruction should become a desktop for all beginner iksperds well .. suddenly if there is nothing to say.
    2. +5
      April 8 2015 17: 34
      +100500 per instruction, it would be necessary to do the same for PAK FA, PAK YES, AK, etc.
      1. +12
        April 8 2015 18: 05
        About cars have long been invented:
        Instructions for choosing a car

        1. Year of release.

        a) used - will be strewed
        b) new. - will also be strewed, and even expensive

        2. Country of origin

        a) German - there is no real Japanese quality
        b) Japanese - there is no real German quality
        c) Korean - there is no quality at all
        d) French - because shit and all
        e) American - because there is neither Japanese nor German quality
        e) Chinese - everything is clear here, there’s nothing to talk about.
        g) ours - well, they cannot make normal cars in a country where bears
        walk the streets

        3. Engine

        a) Gasoline - eats a lot
        b) Diesel - expensive to repair
        c) Hybrid - big money batteries cost
        d) Gas - will certainly explode and stink

        4. Gearbox

        a) Handle - you need to pull it all the time, and even change the clutch sometimes
        b) Robotic handle - pulls on the switch and generally not a fig
        automatic
        c) Automatic - switches wrong and wrong, and expensive to repair
        d) The variator - will certainly die

        5. Drive

        a) Front - it is not clear how to get out of a skid
        b) Rear - it is not clear how not to get into a skid
        c) Full - nothing is clear at all, you’ll definitely kill yourself

        6. Body

        a) Sedan - small trunk
        b) Hatchback - the refrigerator will not fit
        c) Station wagon - fig this barn
        d) Coupe - it’s inconvenient to climb back
        e) Convertible - blowing
        e) Bus is too big

        7. Car class

        a) A - a moped with a roof
        b) B - rides like a moped, eats like a car
        c) C - type large, but actually small
        d) D - they thought it was almost E, but it turned out to be a big C
        d) E - so how to park this cow?
        e) F - have you seen how much it costs?

        8. Steering wheel

        a) Right - it will not work to overtake
        b) Left - expensive and there is no real Japanese quality

        9. Other

        a) Toning - nothing is visible
        b) Lack of tinting - everything is visible from the street and it’s hot

        10.Color.

        a) White - constantly wash the car, shit.
        b) Black - you'll be like a gopnik, shit.
        c) Red - womanish, shit
        d) Silver - you will ride like half the world, shit
        e) Blue - like blue Vitalik on a blue metallic, shit.
        e) The rest is all the more shit, and so it is clear.

        11. Turbine

        a) Yes - shit, breaks, expensive.
        b) No - the vegetable does not go, shit.

        12.Rubber

        a) Studded - shit, on the pavement does not slow down.
        b) Not studded - shit, does not slow down on ice.

        13.Suspension

        a) Soft - shit, not rulitsya.
        b) Rigid - shit, you’ll beat off your ass.

        14.Rama

        a) Yes - shit, rulitsya like a barge
        b) No - shit, you’ll get stuck in a puddle

        15.Salon

        a) Skin - shit, in the winter the ass freezes, sweats in the summer.
        b) Fabric / velor - shit, stains from Coca-Cola horseradish wash.
        c) Combined - all the shit from the above taken together.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. +1
    April 8 2015 13: 58
    to compare the prototype and the production car is still not correct, the more so the year of production is also slightly different, in my opinion the article is probably good, but nothing!
    1. +7
      April 8 2015 14: 07
      The car did not pass state tests, it is not in service, its performance characteristics are unknown, but it is already being compared. What it will turn out at the exit is unknown. Perhaps in a significantly "truncated" form (similar facts have already taken place) due to various reasons (expensive, difficult, excessive ...). You are right, time will tell. Then we will compare.
  13. +31
    April 8 2015 13: 59
    This is all well and good, but there is something better. THAT'S WHAT IT IS NECESSARY FOR THE VICTORY OF UKROPATRIOTS !!
    1. +18
      April 8 2015 14: 03
      I like this one more
  14. +9
    April 8 2015 14: 01
    Ndaaaa .. Topic: Why does the elephant have a trunk, if the elephant had scales ...
  15. +3
    April 8 2015 14: 01
    Cho, the expert decided to reassure himself, or what?
  16. +3
    April 8 2015 14: 02
    The weapon checks the war and theoretical calculations are only theoretical calculations.
  17. +4
    April 8 2015 14: 03
    Oh experts, I think ... I suppose ... maybe I guess about the armature nothing is known yet, except that it is there, it goes and maybe it’s already shooting, we will wait until something more concrete is said and not by the experts, but the developers even claim that the gun 15-20 percent better than Rheinmetalovskaya, but somehow it’s not impressive, although I’ve never dragged the guns and I can’t say a lot or a little. The exact same thing about BMP.
  18. 0
    April 8 2015 14: 06
    a b c d e f g h z z aa ...
  19. +3
    April 8 2015 14: 07
    I can imagine the guys when we see and learn the performance characteristics of the Armata - how many new "experts" will appear in the field of armored vehicles, how many thoughts will there be on the Internet, etc., how many comments will be added to the VO .... laughing
    1. +2
      April 8 2015 16: 26
      Quote: Alexey-74
      Imagine men when we all see and recognize the technical characteristics of Almaty

      I suspect that not in the near, and not in the future, the majority will remain in the ignorance of these TTX
  20. +4
    April 8 2015 14: 14
    How is it "in other countries, although the development of heavy infantry fighting vehicles is underway, the matter has not advanced further than prototypes or prototypes"? And the German Puma, Marder?
    At our institute, officers generally said that in the west they couldn’t do BMPs - they always got a tank. A personal opinion, of course, but shows that the same Germany is doing well with heavy infantry fighting vehicles.
    1. 0
      April 8 2015 14: 18
      I agree with you on everything.
  21. 0
    April 8 2015 14: 21
    Well, what kind of expert he is already clear. The engine of the T-15 is 1500l.s and 1200l.s. - operational to increase the resource.
    1. 0
      April 8 2015 14: 26
      Does it matter (besides the resource) if the power plant still "produces" 1200hp?
      In general, the "Engine 1500hp." this is a convention - in fact, the permissible power when calculating for a certain mode of operation and a certain resource.
  22. +4
    April 8 2015 14: 25
    There are no Israeli specialists ..? Calling it with a code word .. "Hezbollah" and "Hamas" received tanks ..! Welcome ... drinks
    1. +8
      April 8 2015 14: 29
      Quote: MIKHAN
      There are no Israeli specialists ..? Calling it with a code word .. "Hezbollah" and "Hamas" received tanks ..! Welcome ...

      I’ll probably help you.

      It has no analogues in the world ... It has no analogues in the world! DOES NOT HAVE ANALOGUES IN THE WORLD !!!
      1. +7
        April 8 2015 14: 41
        Gray You are wrong, the codeword is nonsense
        1. 0
          April 8 2015 14: 59
          removed from the tongue)
      2. +1
        April 8 2015 14: 47
        Quote: GRAY
        It has no analogues in the world ... It has no analogues in the world! DOES NOT HAVE ANALOGUES IN THE WORLD !!

        They reacted to you ..! Looks like the code has changed .. wassat
      3. 0
        April 8 2015 14: 59
        almost, but the execution technique is lame. Need so nonsense
    2. +1
      April 8 2015 14: 51
      Quote: MIKHAN
      There are no Israeli specialists ..? Calling it with a code word .. "Hezbollah" and "Hamas" received tanks ..! Welcome ... drinks

      laughing laughing laughing
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        April 8 2015 14: 59
        Who are the specialists? For 40 years they drove near oil - but they never found!
        1. +3
          April 8 2015 16: 36
          Quote: a.hamster55
          Who are the specialists? For 40 years they drove near oil - but they never found!

          on this they have a minimum wage of 1000 euros?
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      April 8 2015 15: 06
      Quote: MIKHAN
      Calling by the code word .. "Hezbollah" and "Hamas" received tanks ..! Welcome ... drinks

      MIKHAN you were "released" from captivity smile
      They will not come out on their holiday, and in general they have been somehow "suppressed" lol
      On the Israeli armored vehicle, only a remotely controlled machine gun of 12,7 mm is available.

      And I have this photo of "Namer" with a 7.62-mm machine gun, can one of the Israeli citizens tell me what kind of modification it is?
      1. +3
        April 8 2015 15: 15
        therefore their "Namer" weighs 60 tons

        Of course, the dimensions and mass of the Namer are simply impressive, it is very likely that the Israeli "design thought" is going the same way as in Germany during the 3rd Reich to the 100 ton "Maus".
        1. 0
          April 8 2015 16: 16
          Well, that you slapped a photo-toad.
          1. +1
            April 8 2015 16: 24
            Quote: BIP PS FSB RF
            Well, that you slapped a photo-toad.

            Why do you think so? This is its true size. It is really just huge.
            1. 0
              April 10 2015 03: 53
              Yes, I’m wrong, sorry. Compared with another photo, where the dimensions seem different.
          2. Rex
            +1
            April 8 2015 16: 45
            Big he however
    4. +1
      April 8 2015 15: 15
      Well, still: And we gat!
    5. +6
      April 9 2015 00: 27
      Quote: MIKHAN
      Something there are no Israeli specialists ...

  23. +10
    April 8 2015 14: 31
    Just like the bauchi near the porch on the bench!
  24. +3
    April 8 2015 14: 49
    The article is suitable only as a fan sketch, and even then it is somehow not convincing. To judge the T-15, as well as the T-14, is too early, but one thing is for sure, a car that has heavier armored hatches than Merkava's forehead will definitely not be worse than Namer.
  25. 0
    April 8 2015 14: 54
    Can start over: where did "NUMBER" come from smile (do not throw too much dirt)
  26. 0
    April 8 2015 14: 54
    The advantage of TBMP T-15 is its modularity. They can supply a module with a 12,7 mm machine gun or a 30 mm gun. Or they can add a module with a 57 mm cannon or Bahchu. Well, the protection is very serious. Probably KAZ Afganit will stand there, and with the declared characteristics it will be a very powerful defense system.
    1. -1
      April 8 2015 16: 38
      Quote: Dimka off
      Advantage of TBMP T-15 in its modularity

      Who is the advantage?
  27. 0
    April 8 2015 14: 54
    I think so we will judge the car when it appears with the published characteristics.
  28. +2
    April 8 2015 14: 59
    Expert: which is better, BMP "Armata" or Israeli armored personnel carrier "Timer"?
    Dear expert, what is a better carriage or wagon, and what is better for?
    What, dear to you, do the letters (in the following order) mean BMP and BTR?
    And, even if for you these abbreviations are identical .... damn you can compare that what has already been fired at with what has not even been born?
    1. Rex
      +11
      April 8 2015 15: 08
      The main thing at the beginning Expert with a big letter smile
      1. +4
        April 8 2015 15: 22
        Quote: Rex
        The main thing at the beginning Expert with a big letter

        +

        Or so (often printed here) Military observer / Military expert Leonid Nersisyan




        Pearl is (saved):
        http://topwar.ru/62845-leonid-nersisyan-polety-strategicheskoy-aviacii-rossii-ud

        ar-po-karmanu-stran-nato-podrobnosti-http-wwwregnumru-news-polit-1867134htmlixzz

        3jrozsakx-lyuboe-ispolzovanie-materialov-dopuskaetsya-tolko.html


        Quote: Author
        “According to Russian military experts, the T-15 is superior to the Namer in most of its characteristics.

        Just take a peek at the assessments of Rosexperts?
    2. +1
      April 8 2015 15: 42
      Quote: MACCABI-TLV
      to compare that something that has already been fired at with something that has not even been born?

      Dear man, how was this not born? You go to the censor there; the abrams fight with armatures for four months, but you do not know.
    3. +1
      April 8 2015 20: 00
      Quote: MACCABI-TLV
      Expert: which is better, BMP "Armata" or Israeli armored personnel carrier "Timer"?
      Dear expert, what is a better carriage or wagon, and what is better for?
      What, dear to you, do the letters (in the following order) mean BMP and BTR?
      And, even if for you these abbreviations are identical .... damn you can compare that what has already been fired at with what has not even been born?

      This is how to compare a tank and self-propelled guns. And that both have guns, both have tracks. Why not compare.
      1. Rex
        0
        April 8 2015 20: 37
        I will support. I wrote the same myself.
  29. Rex
    0
    April 8 2015 15: 02
    The comparison is stupid. Different cars, different times, different goals.
    So come to a comparison of the T-72 and T-VI
    1. +1
      April 8 2015 15: 14
      T-72 is better in all respects
  30. +1
    April 8 2015 15: 06
    Expert: which is better, BMP "Armata" or Israeli armored personnel carrier "Timer"?

    paraphrasing Eastern wisdom, I will say "those who know do not speak, the speaker does not know" ...
  31. +2
    April 8 2015 16: 15
    In the dispute between "Armata" and "Namer" I put on "Cornet". At worst, from poverty and a hundred-kilogram land mine on the sidelines, both will go laughing
  32. 0
    April 8 2015 16: 23
    Look, what's going on! One photo compares combat capabilities! Fear the enemy! Die and lie down! Finally PPC! Experts -VAL! only to fight and no one to serve! But popizd.t .... do not feed bread! (It’s good to retire on calendars)
  33. PROSREOT
    0
    April 8 2015 16: 30
    Why does VO upload all sorts of bullshit articles ?!
    In my opinion, completely incomparable things. It is the same as comparing Gazelka and Kamaz for example: completely different tasks are for cars.
    Well, the main claim to the logical conclusion of the article: so what is still better? !!
  34. 0
    April 8 2015 16: 32
    Comparisons are inappropriate here. These are different generations of cars. You need to compare BMPs based on the T-72.
  35. +2
    April 8 2015 16: 53
    Quote: quilted jacket
    therefore their "Namer" weighs 60 tons

    Of course, the dimensions and mass of the Namer are simply impressive, it is very likely that the Israeli "design thought" is going the same way as in Germany during the 3rd Reich to the 100 ton "Maus".


    ) in the picture the monster is just
    1. -3
      April 8 2015 17: 06
      Quote: Victorio
      in the picture the monster is just

      This is because they do not have to fight against the regular army, but only "chase Bedouins on camels" with RPGs and Kalashniki across the desert. Therefore, they need a super-protected fortress on tracks. Which they have.
      1. +1
        April 8 2015 18: 09
        Overprotected? This is in what projection? From the 20mm side? Or a 120mm MTO cap? https://pp.vk.me/c622022/v622022491/27ef4/4PzXNeS5Rt8.jpg
    2. -3
      April 8 2015 17: 50
      and then the question: how many such graceful girls can fit in such a monster, especially in the walking variant and without ammunition?)
  36. wanderer_032
    +1
    April 8 2015 16: 59
    Note from the category - heat up the hype. winked
    When there will be mass production and deliveries to the troops, then we can talk about something.

    There is a good folk wisdom that it is fraught to share the skin of an unkilled bear ...
  37. -5
    April 8 2015 18: 00
    Quote: wanderer_032
    There is a good folk wisdom that it is fraught to share the skin of an unkilled bear ...

    --- here I must rather say that "unkilled bears" because no matter how one or the other can not be killed - there is no money in the budget ...
  38. +4
    April 8 2015 19: 40
    “According to Russian military experts, T-15 surpasses Namer in most characteristics.” True, the Russian machine still exists in the status of prototypes and only after some time will go to the troops. And the “Israeli” is already being mass-produced and tested in combat conditions, ”concludes Romanov.



    No comments!
  39. 0
    April 8 2015 20: 33
    I love such experts. And I saw both on only in the photo, but already gives comparisons to the mountain ...
    In general, before these were called science fiction writers.
  40. 0
    April 8 2015 20: 43
    In addition to the "experts", there are also "experts" - they were referred to here that "Kordom" can shoot down anti-tank shells ... http://topwar.ru/71754-rossiyskaya-armata-brosit-vyzov-amerikanskomu-ab
    ramsu.html
    1. +1
      April 8 2015 20: 53
      Quote: Lance
      that "Kord" can shoot down anti-tank shells

      Well, why are you so incredulous? Pturs rockets with a speed of 300 m / s if a good SLA and a machine gun is synchronized, it is quite possible to shoot down.
      1. +1
        April 8 2015 21: 16
        Quote: Kars
        Quote: Lance
        that "Kord" can shoot down anti-tank shells

        Well, why are you so incredulous? Pturs rockets with a speed of 300 m / s if a good SLA and a machine gun is synchronized, it is quite possible to shoot down.

        It is possible of course, but somehow it is necessary. Apparently, after the summer battles, we finally went to KAZ, too, he worked too well for the infection.

        Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon said that as part of the IDF's rearmament program, he would receive an additional 267 Namer armored personnel carriers. All vehicles will be equipped with the Meil ​​Ruach active anti-missile defense systemIn total, the IDF will receive 520 of these armored personnel carriers. They will replace obsolete M-113 vehicles in infantry brigades.
        Ya'alon also confirmed that the IDF made a decision and new wheeled armored personnel carriers will be delivered to the reconnaissance battalions of the infantry brigades, allowing them to make quick maneuvers in enemy territory. Their type has not yet been selected
        .
        1. +1
          April 8 2015 21: 32
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Of course, but somehow it is necessary.

          Well, if you did not succeed, it does not mean that others could not.

          and by the way, yes

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Dog-1-35-Merkava-IV-Trophy-system-basket-for-Hobby
          -Boss-/191527358036?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c97eb8e54
        2. 0
          April 8 2015 21: 35
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Ours, apparently, after the summer battles finally went to KAZ, too, he worked too well for the infection

          Yes? And the rest of your "unfortunate" soldiers will continue to move on the ancient M-113 (and M-133 you have about five thousand pieces) lined with sandbags? Or is this your new KAZ?



          How many of them died in the last conflict in Gaza in M-113?
          7 or 8 people at the same time with the armored personnel carrier, did I forget something?
  41. +2
    April 8 2015 21: 55
    Killed in the M-113 seven. And yes we will try. We will use the supply vehicles, mortar platforms, and second-tier troop transporters. In any case, their ballistic protection is better than that of trucks.
    1. 0
      April 8 2015 22: 06
      And before you replace the entire M-113 fleet, will they simply "go to slaughter"?
      That is, these soldiers are not people? Or are they people but not as valuable as those that will ride the Namers?
      1. +3
        April 8 2015 23: 19
        Quote: quilted jacket
        And before you replace the entire M-113 fleet, will they simply "go to slaughter"?
        That is, these soldiers are not people? Or are they people but not as valuable as those that will ride the Namers?

        To the forefront on the M113, and then the legs. And yes, if there are fights, then there will be losses. You just don’t get it.
      2. +1
        April 9 2015 10: 11
        Quote: quilted jacket
        And before you replace the entire M-113 fleet, will they simply "go to slaughter"?
        That is, these soldiers are not people?

        and what, the RF Ministry of Defense has already decommissioned all those punched by conventional RPG7 BMP1-2-3, and all BTR 70-80, or they "Or are they people but not as valuable as those who will ride the T-15?"
  42. 0
    April 8 2015 23: 31
    The dispute is about what? For some two "left" pictures, it is not known what, everyone undertook to compare the hypothetical Armata with existing models of technology. Somehow it was forgotten that the T-34 was recognized as the best not for the gun, not for its speed and mobility (and its mobility, by the way, is given by the calluses of the driver), but by the totality of all qualities, plus maintainability and the number of vehicles produced. We can say something about Armat when we see her, well, at least during exercises. And the parade ... well, that the parade - it will pass, will not stall in the middle of Red Square - is already fine. Here all the experts in technology have gathered and must understand how long it takes to fine-tune a prototype to a combat state.