China introduced a new anti-tank missile system

109
According to Jane's news agency, the Chinese corporation NORINCO has developed and has begun to supply the troops with a new anti-tank missile system. The system, called Red Arrow 12 or HJ-12, is significantly different from previous Chinese complexes of similar purpose. In the design of the new ATGM, several new technical solutions have been applied to the Chinese defense industry in order to enhance its characteristics.

China introduced a new anti-tank missile system


Materials on the new anti-tank complex HJ-12 were first presented at the Eurosatory-2014 exhibition, held in France in late June. At the same time, according to representatives of the Chinese defense industry, at the time of the first demonstration at the international exhibition, the promising anti-tank missile systems were not only developed or tested, but also entered mass production. To date, some units of the People’s Liberation Army of China have managed to get a new weapon and start to master it.

In the new Chinese-developed anti-tank missile system, several ideas were used that are characteristic of modern anti-tank systems of foreign countries, which affected its appearance. It should be noted that a similar approach to the design led to the fact that the Red Arrow 12 complex even looks similar to a foreign counterpart - the American ATGM FGM-148 Javelin. In the version for use by infantry units, the Chinese-made system is a transport and launch container with characteristic large end caps and a block of equipment for searching for targets and aiming. The rocket is launched from the shoulder, as when using anti-tank rocket launchers.

According to Jane's, the weight of the transport and launch container (TLC) with the HJ-12 rocket is approximately equal to 17 kilograms. The total weight of the complex (container and equipment unit) is 22 kg. Container length - 1,25 m, diameter about 170-180 mm. The dimensions of the rocket are still unknown, there are only different estimates, according to which the length of the guided ammunition hardly exceeds the 1 meter, and the diameter is 130-150 mm.

The most important innovation used in the Red Arrow 12 project was the new homing head (GOS). For the first time in Chinese practice, an anti-tank missile received a “shot-and-forget” guidance system. To do this, the product is equipped with an infrared GOS with the function of storing the image of the target (IIR or Imaging Infrared). Similar electronics are used on the rockets of some modern ATGMs: in the already mentioned Javelin, the Israeli Spike complex, and others.



According to the manufacturer, the HJ-12 rocket is equipped with a type IIR homing head with an uncooled photo detector. It is alleged that such a system allows the use of ATGM at any time of the day. There is information about the creation of the second type of rocket, intended for use exclusively in the daytime and equipped with a television seeker.

The guided missile has a look typical for modern weapons of this class. The cylindrical body of large elongation has a hemispherical head fairing, made transparent to ensure the operation of the GOS, and is also equipped with four X-shaped wings and four rudders of similar design. Planes are laid out after launch.

Like the American Javelin complex, the Chinese-developed rocket is supplied in cylindrical transport-launch containers, the end covers of which are equipped with characteristic large rings of soft material. These parts are designed to protect TPK with a missile from shock in the fall. At the request of the customer, the complex can be supplied in an infantry version (TPK and equipment) or in a variant for installation on equipment. In the latter case, the system for mounting equipment on the base machine is included in the ATGM.

The equipment unit attached to the transport and launch container contains the equipment necessary for finding the target and interacting with the rocket electronics. For ease of use, it is equipped with two handles, one of which has buttons to control the system. It is assumed that with the help of an existing thermal imager, the operator of the anti-tank complex should find the target and point a target mark at it, after which it should turn on auto tracking. Automatic rocket "remembers" the image of the target and is ready to launch. At the command of the operator, the rocket is ejected from the TPC, turns on the sustainer solid-fuel engine, and begins flight to the target. For the initial acceleration of the rocket uses a separate propelling charge.

It is argued that, depending on the characteristics of the combat situation, the Red Arrow 12 rocket of ATGM can fly along one of two trajectories. To hit a target in the frontal or side of the rocket can fly along a straight path, and for hitting the roof of the target provides for the flight mode along an arcuate path. The maximum launch range for a rocket with an infrared homing head is stated at 2000 m. For a rocket with a television homing point, this parameter, according to the developers, will be twice as high.

The missile complex HJ-12 is a tandem cumulative warhead. NORINCO representatives claim that this product is capable of penetrating up to 1100 mm of homogeneous steel armor covered with dynamic protection. The warhead and missile flight characteristics allow you to attack light and heavy armored vehicles, as well as to strengthen the enemy. In addition, the ATGM Red Arrow 12, according to the assurances of the developers, can be used to attack slow flying helicopters.

NORINCO claims that the new Red Arrow 12 ATGM is mass-produced and delivered to the troops. The published information is of a general nature, however, it is possible to form an opinion on a new Chinese development. Undoubtedly, the newest anti-tank complex PLA is of great interest, since for the first time Chinese gunsmiths managed to make a rocket operating on the principle of “fired-forgotten”. However, the HJ-12 complex has both advantages and disadvantages.

The main advantage of the new Chinese ATGM is the used guidance algorithm with memorizing the image of the target. This allows the operator of the complex to launch a rocket and quickly change position without falling back. The use of infrared and thermal imaging systems, in turn, makes it possible to use the complex at any time of the day. The function of memorizing a GOS type IIR target can increase the missile immunity when homing, since the rocket is capable of filtering out excess signals and continuing its flight to the set target.

The cost of ATGM Red Arrow 12 has not yet been announced, but it can be assumed that it turned out to be quite expensive in production and operation. The high cost of production is due to the complexity of the systems used, and the high cost of operation associated with the architecture of the complex. The concept of "shot - forget" implies the placement of the main guidance equipment on the rocket, and not on the launcher. Thus, during each launch, literally tens and hundreds of thousands of yuan can fly away.

The disadvantage or, at least, ambiguous feature of the newest Chinese ATGM is the maximum launch range at the level of 2 km (for the version with the GOS type IIR). This is less than that of many foreign systems, but it may be enough to complete the tasks in most situations when the maximum distance between the target and the shooter is limited by the terrain or buildings. In addition, the existence of a variant of the HJ-12 complex with a television seeker and a greater range of fire has been announced.

If the information on the Red Arrow 12 serial production of ATGM is true, then the ground forces of the People’s Liberation Army of China received an interesting weapon suitable for various tasks. Perhaps in the future, any third countries will express a desire to acquire such weapons. However, information about the new complex was announced only a few weeks ago. Therefore, in the near future, the HJ-12 system is likely to be used only in the PLA.


On the materials of the sites:
http://janes.com/
http://armyrecognition.com/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
109 comments
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  1. +2
    10 July 2014 09: 18
    Yes. It's a good system - "fire and forget", you can create automatic turrets with them - "unmanned" - they will work like "long-range mines".
    1. +1
      11 July 2014 08: 58
      Quote: mirag2
      "unmanned" -will, like "long-range mines" work.

      I think you guessed it right here. In order for the ATGM to homing on the target, the operator needs to enter the target image into the seeker through the thermal imager and give the command to capture.
    2. 0
      11 July 2014 13: 59
      We are waiting for the appearance of this Chinese system in the Middle East
      for one check the super windbreaker
      1. +1
        19 July 2014 09: 18
        Quote: bmv04636
        We are waiting for the appearance of this Chinese system in the Middle East
        for one check the super windbreaker

        Will not check tongue , who do you think is pumping the Chinese defense industry with the latest technology? lol


  2. +12
    10 July 2014 09: 30
    Wow, how smart it is ... Chinese Jewelin, and even with an uncooled seeker! Even the Yankees have not dazzled yet, but they already! Domestic "monsters" of the military-industrial complex are still playing around with lasers, presenting their crafts as ingenious developments ... Soon we will buy weapons from China ...
    1. +9
      10 July 2014 10: 30
      You know that the staff of the Chinese Embassy in Israel -
      fourth in terms of staff in the world? Too much for
      8 million countries? ...laughing
      Steal secrets godlessly. And no one wants to mess with them.
      Even when they grab hold of the hand, politicians overlook the point: import-export,
      vast market, huge investments, profitable projects ...
      1. 0
        19 July 2014 09: 25
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Stealing secrets godlessly ...

        Not in this case, our own "dragon" is fed from the belly, we need a counterbalance to the influence of the states. And the Chinese are investing in us the most today.
    2. +5
      10 July 2014 12: 19
      Quote: Nayhas
      Domestic "monsters" of the military-industrial complex are all playing around with lasers, presenting their crafts as ingenious developments.

      At one time, these developments were really brilliant. In the days of the USSR. Of course, now you can swagger over the MIG-21 and the battleship Yamato and the B-29. But for their time, they were outstanding cars. Like domestic ATGMs, which are a cut above the western ones.
      At the same time, a photosensitive homing or television head is not such a discovery. In the distant 50-60, Strela-10 was precisely with a photosensitive GOS. 50 years passed. Is it really difficult to create a more sensitive matrix? Not difficult. Just someone would order and give money. We won the Olympics, then the Formula-1. That pipeline to China must be pulled .... In short, the defense industry after all commercial projects is underway.
      1. +2
        10 July 2014 20: 18
        Quote: qwert
        Of course, now you can swagger over both the MIG-21 and the battleship Yamato and the B-29.

        God forbid ... I'm not swaggering over what happened then. I'm cheering now, when they are trying to present a product of the level of the 90s as a genius development. For example, recently on this resource there was an article about ATGM Sturm-S, which was "modernized" by replacing the radio command guidance equipment (2,5 tons !!!!!!) with a laser guidance system (respectively, categorically light) and installing a semi-active laser seeker on the ATGM. All this was presented, as always, with pomp, accompanied by abundant comments about how "the military-industrial complex is getting up from its knees."
        Quote: qwert
        Is it really difficult to create a more sensitive matrix?

        So there it is ... Vaughn developers of RVV-MD brag about a new IR seeker operating in the IR and visible range of EM waves ... Here the current of the seeker is not ours, software "Arsenal", Kiev ...
      2. +1
        11 July 2014 09: 06
        Quote: qwert
        The boom-10 was exactly with the photosensitive gos. 50 passed. Is it really difficult to create a more sensitive matrix? Not difficult. Just someone would have ordered and gave the money. We won the Olympiad, then

        A little, "gutari" from the wrong angle. "Strela-10" and now with a photocontrast sensor. A "purely" photocontrast optical GOS-y SAM "Strela-1 / 1m" It would be nice to remember that back in the 50s, within the framework of the UPS project, a turret with a television guidance system was created.
    3. +2
      10 July 2014 12: 23
      Quote: Nayhas
      "The military-industrial complex all dabble in lasers, presenting their crafts as ingenious developments.

      and how do you like, 20 years the military-industrial complex has been stubbornly falling apart, especially in high-tech industries ...
      1. +1
        10 July 2014 20: 19
        Quote: cosmos111
        and how do you like, 20 years the military-industrial complex has been stubbornly falling apart, especially in high-tech industries ...

        C'mon ... In the 80s, the lag in precision weapons was already evident in all types of weapons ...
        1. 0
          10 July 2014 23: 07
          Quote: Nayhas
          C'mon ... In the 80s, the lag in precision weapons was already evident in all types of weapons ...

          Yeah, especially in the air defense system.
          American javelin
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. 0
      10 July 2014 23: 52
      Elementary, in conditions of military combat, aiming at the target with laser, optical, thermal imaging means is difficult, dust, smoke, light, electronic warfare, etc., so how will you aim at the target with NLAW or FGM-148 Javelin? You will need to go to direct line of sight or do you think the tank will stand in the sun and wait for you? No, the target will constantly maneuver, there will be smoke and dirt around, like dur.ak shag, and a competent tank commander will try to work because of shelters, shrubs, trees, hills, ravines, damaged equipment, buildings, even shed will do. Do you really think that the designers in the USSR were I.D.O.T.? Javelin and NLAW, as follows from the above, cannot be used under combined arms conditions, which was confirmed in Iraq by 2003, refusals to use and bad reviews from the US Army, especially since Javelin needs to cool the 25 infrared seeker before launch -30 sec, during this time you can win the war, but the fact that it does not seem to be affected by any means of defense, no more than a PR move and its direct optoelectronic guidance, is rather a minus compared to our ATGMs of the 2 generation, both in range , guidance and warhead, in the USSR, and in p consequence in the Russian Federation, a very serious ATGM school (if not the best) because our ATGMs take part in hostilities around the world, thereby our developers get tremendous experience, which they perfectly implement in new products. Especially since 2005 of the year in the RF troops systems of counteraction and detection, optical and optoelectronic systems are being successfully introduced.
      1. +6
        11 July 2014 08: 32
        Quote: Saburov
        Elementary, in conditions of military combat, aiming at the target with laser, optical, thermal imaging means is difficult, dust, smoke, light, electronic warfare and so on, so how will you aim at the target with NLAW or FGM-148 Javelin?

        You forgot that the thermal imager drummed smoke, dust, fog and dirt.

        Quote: Saburov
        competent tank commander, will try to work because of shelters, shrubs, trees, hills, ravines, lined equipment, buildings, even a shed will do.

        Again by. 3rd generation ATGM makes a slide over shelters, shrubs, trees, hills, ravines, lined with equipment, buildings, even a shed. Video upload?

        Quote: Saburov
        . Do you really think that the designers in the USSR were idiots?

        Just the development of technology did not allow them to create such a thing.

        Quote: Saburov
        Javelin and NLAW, as follows from all of the above, cannot be used in conditions of combined arms combat, which was confirmed in 2003 in Iraq

        Leave urban legends to children or post statistics.

        .....
        1. 0
          11 July 2014 10: 31
          what about heat shield wraps
        2. Styx
          0
          11 July 2014 12: 01
          Quote: professor
          You forgot that the thermal imager drummed smoke, dust, fog and dirt.

          Professor, why then on the GBU-53 three-mode seeker?



          IR uncooled, semi-active laser, millimeter-wave ARGS.
          1. +3
            11 July 2014 12: 32
            Quote: Styx
            Professor, why then on the GBU-53 three-mode seeker?

            There is nothing perfect. Bigger is better. On the same Spike, there is now a three-mode seeker.

            Quote: bmv04636
            explain then the professor why in the cities the brave US marines use adas rather than jeviling.

            I get the impression that you were banned in Google. Javelin has a high trajectory and in the city this can be a problem, sometimes it’s better to hammer in a straight line. Then the operator chooses such a path. And Spike has the opportunity to choose a trajectory. Both have a soft start and can be launched from rooms, unlike Cornet. In short, here's the materiel. Teach, not in vain did I translate this article ...

            ATRA Javelin
        3. 0
          11 July 2014 12: 19
          explain then the professor why in the cities the brave US marines use adas rather than jeviling.
          1. +1
            11 July 2014 13: 19
            Quote: bmv04636
            explain then the professor why in the cities the brave US marines use adas rather than jeviling.

            Read the article that I recommended to you and then we'll talk.
        4. +1
          11 July 2014 13: 27
          You forgot that the thermal imager drummed smoke, dust, fog and dirt.


          This is far from the case, it all depends on the density and composition of the gas-dust mixture, if it is uniform in structure (which means the temperature gradient at its borders will be the same), well, or let's say it is quite homogeneous, we get the glass effect, behind which the thermal imager is blind.
          1. +3
            11 July 2014 13: 32
            This is in theory, but in practice the thermal imager so far allows you to see through the above obstacles.
            1. 0
              11 July 2014 13: 57
              a thermal imager sees, for example, you hit the first tank or an infantry fighting vehicle, it burns a large amount of heat, and the second tank becomes invisible to you in the thermal imager, and a rocket fired from a spike or Jewel is more likely to parasit an already damaged object
              1. 0
                11 July 2014 14: 28
                Quote: bmv04636
                a thermal imager sees, for example, you hit the first tank or an infantry fighting vehicle, it burns a large amount of heat, and the second tank becomes invisible to you in the thermal imager, and a rocket fired from a spike or Jewel is more likely to parasit an already damaged object

                I don’t understand. Have you read the article recommended by me? almost everything is written there.

                PS
                You are one step away from my ignorlist. bully
                1. 0
                  11 July 2014 14: 48
                  convinced professor spike the best PPH and not be afraid of a clone of the best PPH
                  1. +1
                    11 July 2014 14: 55
                    Quote: bmv04636
                    convinced professor spike the best PPH and not be afraid of a clone of the best PPH

                    In none of my articles, as well as in any of my comments, you will not find the epithet "best". hi
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2014 15: 00
                      I agree with you because you will resist the clone of spike
                      developed an antidote soon because you have it drawn
            2. 0
              11 July 2014 14: 17
              In practice, this is realized with special aerosols. But you're right, ordinary smoke, dust and not dense fog for a thermal imager (with good sensitivity) are not a hindrance.
      2. 0
        11 July 2014 11: 00
        Quote: Saburov
        Elementary, in conditions of military combat, aiming at the target, laser, optical, thermal imaging
      3. +1
        11 July 2014 11: 00
        25-30 seconds is in full preparation for the launch of the rocket, including cooling and other technical steps necessary for launching, aiming! Do you really think that you can shoot faster with a bassoon? There, too, it takes 15-20 seconds to prepare.

        Quote: Saburov
        and the fact that no means of protection seem to act on it, nothing more than a PR move and its direct optical-electronic guidance are rather a minus, compared to our 2nd generation ATGMs, both in range, guidance and warhead,
        Especially since 2005, counteraction and detection systems, optical and optoelectronic systems have been successfully introduced into the Russian troops

        I wonder how you can interfere with the thermal imager? :) about the approach of which you will not know until it falls on your head. Speak up the noise? :)

        Quote: Saburov
        in the USSR, and later in the Russian Federation, a very serious ATGM school (if not the best) because our ATGMs take part in hostilities around the world, thereby our developers get enormous experience, which they perfectly implement in new products.

        And “Javelin” and “Spike” have never been used in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, never at all, and any information about such an application is just a PR move! Thinking right, however.

        Javelin and Spike, as the most prominent representatives of the 3rd generation ATGM, have vulnerabilities and weaknesses, but they do not lie in the plane of the 2nd generation ATGM flaws. These shortcomings must be sought, studied and taken into account in combined-arms charters, manuals and, most importantly, in the design of armored vehicles. Enormous work needs to be done on this all! I have hardly heard of such research. And your post is a very good example of a very vivid "hatred".
        1. +1
          11 July 2014 11: 13
          Quote: lordinicus
          These shortcomings must be sought, studied and taken into account in combined-arms charters, manuals and, most importantly, in the design of armored vehicles.

          The third generation also does not stand still. On the new spike, it is possible to illuminate the target with a laser.
          Modernized Spikes
          1. 0
            11 July 2014 11: 26
            Professor, say the laser, but what do you dislike about the laser at Cornet.
            Spike taught to fly faster than turtles or everything crawls
            1. +1
              11 July 2014 11: 37
              Quote: bmv04636
              Professor, say the laser, but what do you dislike about the laser at Cornet.

              The fact that in Cornet is only a laser, and not a laser to illuminate targets in urban areas.

              Quote: bmv04636
              Spike taught to fly faster than turtles or everything crawls

              Materiel, dear, materiel. Cornet is not faster than Spike flies. In general, for a missile with correction in flight, high speed is contraindicated - you will not have time to confirm the target.
              1. 0
                11 July 2014 11: 45
                as I understand it, the spike is slowly flying about, so that it wouldn’t be possible to apply by 4M standards
                180 spike and 320 cornet are almost two times faster and the assault is sv-400 (the new missile 540)
                1. +1
                  11 July 2014 12: 07
                  as I understand it, the spike is slowly flying about, so that it wouldn’t be possible to apply by 4M standards

                  this allows pin point accuracy. I see you cannot understand this.

                  180 spike and 320 cornet are almost two times faster and the assault is sv-400 (the new missile 540)

                  What about the assault? You would still remember Poplar. Look at Helfaer 1.3 Mach for a long time and so what?
                  At the expense of spike and cornet speeds, the profic to the studio pliz.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. -1
                    11 July 2014 12: 32
                    mobile complex.
                    The spike complex is arguably not good, but it does not work at all for modern tanks like Merkava 4M, T-90SM (with Arena-E). And the T-72 can be knocked out and a vampire is much cheaper and more reliable so why do I need a spike so to satisfy my ambitions like I have a super trooper thing
                    1. +1
                      11 July 2014 13: 20
                      Quote: bmv04636
                      The spike complex is arguably not good, but it doesn’t work at all on modern tanks like Merkava 4M, T-90SM (with Arena-E)

                      Do not drive the blizzard, or I will ignore you.
                  3. 0
                    11 July 2014 13: 01
                    exemplary performance characteristics
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2014 13: 06
                      Failure. The average speed must be compared and where is the data on Spike?
                      1. 0
                        11 July 2014 13: 38
                        lower the professor is lower and the speed is correctly indicated on the final blow, but KAZ sees the trophy not so far
                      2. +1
                        11 July 2014 13: 45
                        Quote: bmv04636
                        lower the professor is lower and the speed is correctly indicated on the final blow, but KAZ sees the trophy not so far

                        Waiting for the proof. Screen shot for a non-serious article did not pass. The next attempt.
                    2. 0
                      11 July 2014 13: 07
                      approximate TTX soldering
                      1. -2
                        11 July 2014 13: 20
                        In general, the good Cornet cannot be compared with "Javelin", these are complexes for different weight categories. "Javelin" is for the companies, and the Cornet is for the battalions. Of course, you can carry "Cornets" in the company, but that will be problematic.

                        Therefore, it is not correct to compare speeds in principle. "Javelin" should be compared to "Metis".

                        The "Spike", the one with a 5-km range, is inherently very multifunctional, while the "Cornet" does not have such great versatility. (for the cornet, you need to choose a more comfortable position, plus you need to fire at different targets with different missiles) and speed for "Spike" is a secondary parameter, tanks are an important target, but not the only one.
                      2. +1
                        11 July 2014 13: 23
                        not set off. I will knock 20 such flocks a day ...
                2. jj74
                  0
                  23 July 2014 10: 59
                  13 kg and 46 kg is there a difference? Obviously, these comrades have a margin for supersonic, but there is no such task apparently IMHO
        2. 0
          11 July 2014 13: 38
          I wonder how you can interfere with the thermal imager? :) about the approach of which you will not know until it falls on your head. Speak up the noise? :)


          As for you, this option: Optoelectronic counteraction stations turn on during an active battle and do not turn off until its end. wink
          1. Styx
            0
            11 July 2014 14: 01
            Quote: adept666
            I wonder how you can interfere with the thermal imager? :) about the approach of which you will not know until it falls on your head. Speak up the noise? :)


            How do you like this option: Optoelectronic counteraction stations are included during active combat and do not turn off until its completion. wink

            Thus unmasking the tank.
            1. 0
              11 July 2014 14: 18
              Unmasking for whom?
              1. 0
                11 July 2014 14: 29
                Quote: adept666
                Unmasking for whom?

                For the enemy, CEP. This laser station scans the space showing for one thing to everyone: here it is.
                1. 0
                  11 July 2014 14: 39
                  Well, that’s how it is understood, which is not for a friend. Well, let’s say an infrared laser scans a space, with the help of which you (an infantryman with a javelin) will detect it? Well, suppose you spotted him (for example, you are not an infantryman) then what? Fire ammunition with an infrared head, this laser will lead him to the side. The tank has the same laser warning system (this is if the head is combined). Put an aerosol curtain, suppress the beam.
                  1. 0
                    11 July 2014 14: 51
                    Quote: adept666
                    Well, let’s say an infrared laser scans a space, with the help of which you (an infantryman with a javelin) will detect it? Well, suppose you spotted him (for example, you are not an infantryman) then what? Fire ammunition with an infrared head, this laser will lead him to the side. The tank has the same laser warning system (this is if the head is combined). Put an aerosol curtain, suppress the beam.

                    I won’t run into you much because of course you don’t have to know everything ...
                    Scan with a laser for the presence of optics and all glasses, bottles and other rubbish (after all, we’re not fighting in an open field) will glow on your screen. And the media you will shine for kilometers. A fighter with a javelin will point his spear at you and the two-hundredth went to the mother, and if they arrived on the T-72, then the mother will have nothing to send - the detonation of the combat unit however. Your laser cannot illuminate the seeker’s missile because it is not imprisoned for this, and no one irradiates you with any laser, the seeker is passive. What a blessing that I am not a tanker.
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2014 15: 01
                      if it flies and does not go astray
                    2. 0
                      11 July 2014 16: 19
                      Professor to you a question.
                      You have come across a comprehensive description of 3rd generation ATGM protection.
                      What I met, but all this was separately described by different authors.
                      1. A superstructure of a kind of roof over an armored object.
                      2. Using a laser-ranging system to proactively detect shooters. Type of device that scans the space around and everything that illuminates the glass. I know the French are making such devices to search for snipers. But will this device work on germanium glass which is in thermal imagers?
                      3. Active protection (radar and guided ammunition, etc.).

                      In the meantime, the tank and any armored object for the 3rd generation ATGM is an easy target.
                      1. 0
                        12 July 2014 14: 08
                        Quote: lordinicus
                        1. A superstructure of a kind of roof over an armored object.

                        The roof must be strengthened, regardless of the generation of anti-tank systems. TOU with shock cores will penetrate the roof of almost any tank.

                        Quote: lordinicus
                        Using a laser-ranging system to proactively detect shooters.

                        Such a locator will shine the tank for kilometers ...

                        Quote: lordinicus
                        Active protection (radar and guided ammunition, etc.).

                        Already in service.
                    3. -1
                      11 July 2014 16: 30
                      Let's separate the grains from the chaff.

                      Scan with a laser for the presence of optics and all glasses, bottles and other rubbish (after all, we’re not fighting in an open field) will glow on your screen.


                      You are talking about a laser that is designed to suppress television channels. And I’m telling you about the IR suppression station — these are two different things. The principle of operation of such a station is an all-angle re-emission of the infrared spectrum, which introduces constant distortions into the IR head and gradually leads it away from the source. It is possible to detect the operation of such a station only with a thermal imager into which interference will also be introduced by the same station. This is like electronic warfare, only in the infrared range. Therefore, she doesn’t need to detect the irradiation or launch of the rocket; she always works in all directions (well, or at least in a certain sector), even when no one is shooting.
                      1. 0
                        12 July 2014 07: 20
                        Quote: adept666
                        hidden distortions and gradually leads her away from the source. It is possible to detect the operation of such a station only with a thermal imager into which interference will also be introduced by the same station

                        What you described does not work against thermal imaging homing heads. In order to interfere with the laser in the cooled homing head, a laser is required that is comparable in power to a laser that must cause temperature damage to the materials, i.e. in fact, such a laser is already melting.
                        The device you are describing no longer works against the latest versions of the Stingre Needle Mistral.
                      2. 0
                        12 July 2014 19: 09
                        Well, it means that your compatriots have made Adros KT-01AVE bullshit ...
                      3. 0
                        12 July 2014 14: 11
                        Quote: adept666
                        You are talking about a laser that is designed to suppress television channels. And I’m telling you about the IR suppression station — these are two different things.

                        We are talking about the same thing. In order to illuminate the seeker, the rocket will first be detected and the beam will be aimed precisely at it. Such a system like "President" or "Music C" costs up to a million dollars. Are we going to put it on the tank?
                      4. 0
                        12 July 2014 19: 07
                        Well, the question of how much it costs is a separate issue, stations exist, there is an opportunity. The cost depends in this case on the series, the larger the series, the lower the cost. The president does not use a laser, but a sapphire lamp, detection of a missile launch in this case is not always necessary (at least, this is what the developers of such systems say, for example, Adros KT-01AVE). The cost of the Mi-24 is 2 times that of a modern tank, not that much, and if the series is available, everything will become cheaper. So it all depends on the desire.
                      5. 0
                        12 July 2014 20: 10
                        Quote: adept666
                        Well, the question of how much is already a separate issue, the stations exist, there is an opportunity.

                        Only on paper.

                        Quote: adept666
                        detection of a missile launch in this case is not always necessary (at least, this is what the developers of such systems say, for example, Adros KT-01AVE).

                        And in which direction will they shine?

                        Quote: adept666
                        The cost of the Mi-24 is 2 times more than a modern tank, not so much, and if there is a series everything will be cheaper.

                        1 to 10 approximately.
                      6. 0
                        12 July 2014 21: 02
                        Only on paper.


                        Why? You yourself called a couple of stations. How effective they are, but the question is, but the stations exist in the metal, which means they are potentially working (which actually can be said about half the weapons that did not participate in the database). But if you talk like that, then the F-22 bullshit is complete ... I hope you don’t think so?

                        And in which direction will they shine?


                        It depends on where it stands and what kind of station it is. for the tank on the tower, the Ukrainian version is more suitable. if you look at it, it shines 360 degrees.

                        1 to 10 approximately.


                        Yes, at least 1 in 20, although now this is no longer the case, modern modifications reach $ 6-10 million, a helicopter of 20-30, well, even if I made a mistake and 1 in 3, 1 in 5, it makes no sense to argue. If there is a system and it works and there is a weapon that this system can suppress sooner or later, despite its cost on technology, it will appear and become cheaper. In any case, a tank is more expensive than a shot from an ATGM, which means it makes sense to put such systems on it.
                      7. 0
                        12 July 2014 21: 09
                        Quote: adept666
                        Why?

                        Because they are not in nature yet. You can’t put aircraft on the tank.

                        Quote: adept666
                        It depends on where it stands and what kind of station it is. for the tank on the tower, the Ukrainian version is more suitable. if you look at it, it shines 360 degrees.

                        There are no lamps of such power to illuminate the seeker for 360 degrees.

                        Quote: adept666
                        it makes no sense to argue

                        I can give you the numbers. What is there to argue?

                        Quote: adept666
                        If there is a system and it works and there is a weapon that this system can suppress sooner or later, despite its cost on technology, it will appear and become cheaper. In any case, a tank is more expensive than a shot from an ATGM, which means it makes sense to put such systems on it.

                        No. Make a tank for $ 50 million and it will go down in history as a mammoth. Tanks are already dying. They are less and less, and the legislators of tank fashion stop developing and building them.
                      8. 0
                        12 July 2014 21: 22
                        Because they are not in nature yet. You can’t put aircraft on the tank.


                        Yes, lan) It would be a desire)) The principle is known.

                        There are no lamps of such power to illuminate the seeker for 360 degrees.


                        The lamp is used in the presidency, what Ukrainians use I don’t know. However, why did you decide that there are no such lamps? I suspect you have no secret access to the files with the fingerboard, and you simply throw away allegations. wink

                        I can give you the numbers.


                        Well, how much does Leopard 2 cost (and source to numbers)

                        No. Make a tank for $ 50 million and it will go down in history


                        Well, even with the current cost of these systems at 1 million (your numbers, by the way), the total cost of the tank does not increase to 50 million. If they are adapted to a large number of BMs, then their cost will fall due to the series, so there’s no offset.
                      9. 0
                        12 July 2014 21: 50
                        Quote: adept666
                        Yes, lan) It would be a desire)) The principle is known.

                        They are not in nature and this is a fact, the rest is idle talk.

                        Quote: adept666
                        However, why did you decide that there are no such lamps?

                        I taught physics well at the university and I remember how "strength" is inversely proportional to distance to the fourth degree ...

                        Quote: adept666
                        Well, how much does Leopard 2 cost (and source to numbers)

                        average $ 2,510,612
                        Leopard 2A6

                        Well, even with the current cost of these systems at 1 million (your numbers, by the way), the total cost of the tank does not increase to 50 million. If they are adapted to a large number of BMs, then their cost will fall due to the series, so there’s no offset.

                        KAZ costs only $ 200 thousand and it is only on Merkava ...

                        PS
                        Apache worth $ 67 million
                      10. 0
                        13 July 2014 09: 16
                        They are not in nature and this is a fact, the rest is idle talk.


                        They are on helicopters, so no chatter. There are no tanks installed, but if the device is working, what prevents it from working not on the tail boom of the helicopter, but on the tank tower?

                        I taught physics well at the university and I remember how "strength" is inversely proportional to distance to the fourth degree ...


                        This is very good, but physics sometimes brings surprises, it is not worth raising the school (basic) course to the rank of absolute))) In practice, it often turns out that not everything that is written in textbooks is true in the first instance. It was once believed that something heavier than air cannot fly, but now it flies smile

                        average $ 2,510,612


                        So the whole point is in the quantity, the option in which is bought by intergovernmental agreements, we look at the contract with Argentina and see 5 million in 2003 prices (now it would be about 8-10 if not more) and for Portugal 37 units for 3 million in 2007. Well, even if 2,5 million on average for the entire production cycle (if the same series is at the IR suppression station they also become cheaper over time), we set the station to 1 million, i.e. the tank rises in price to an average of 3,5, which takes into account the existing prices of nonsense. One BMP Puma is estimated at up to 7 million euros. I think 2 Leopards with such a station are much more valuable than one BMP))) Apache, yes, an expensive helicopter, but its price, like any product of the US military-industrial complex, is too high.
                      11. 0
                        13 July 2014 12: 46
                        They are on helicopters, so no chatter. There are no tanks installed, but if the device is working, what prevents it from working not on the tail boom of the helicopter, but on the tank tower?

                        There are practically none of them in helicopters, there is no working device for land equipment. GOS MANPADS and GOS ATGM are based on different physical principles. Don't you understand this?


                        This is very good, but physics sometimes brings surprises, it is not worth raising the school (basic) course to the rank of absolute))) In practice, it often turns out that not everything that is written in textbooks is true in the first instance. It was once believed that something heavier than air cannot fly, but now it flies

                        When they find these surprises, they get a Nobel Prize for it. We will wait for the creation of the perpetual motion machine, and then we continue this useless discussion.

                        So the whole point is in quantity ...

                        No. A combat helicopter will always be at least an order of magnitude more expensive than a tank. By the way, why are these helicopters not equipped with the standard MANPADS suppression system of which you are so crucified?
                      12. 0
                        13 July 2014 16: 39
                        GOS MANPADS and GOS ATGM are based on different physical principles. Don't you understand this?


                        Oh really? They have the same principle, they all focus on radiation in the infrared spectrum, but the way they process this radiation can be significant differences, however, if the Adros Station KT-01AVE is capable of equally and simultaneously counteracting infrared homing heads with amplitude-phase (AFM), frequency-phase (ChFM), time-pulse (VIM) modulation of the signal from the target and with increased noise immunity (as stated), there's nothing to be done smile the station is already capable of introducing interference into the operation of the thermal imager, and that’s all said, and up to one place the signal is processed by the guidance head, because it already registers incorrect radiation.

                        When they find these surprises, they get a Nobel Prize for it.


                        For military developments, they don’t give a Nobel prize, so the developers of such stations will get the maximum that they will receive this state prize at a closed event)))

                        No. A combat helicopter will always be at least an order of magnitude more expensive than a tank.


                        So I did not say that the tank will ever become more expensive, but this difference is not so big and nightmare. Why not set up regularly? This question is not for me, but for the customers of the machines, maybe they, like you, do not trust such stations. Here the Ukrainian military delivered, now they are testing in the combat zone. Let's see how they work.
                      13. 0
                        13 July 2014 16: 51
                        Oh really? They have the same principle, they all focus on radiation in the infrared spectrum

                        Really, really. MANPADS are aimed at a heat spot, and ATGM at a target's thermal image. The difference is enormous. It is the same as a blind person who is able to "see" only a white spot when looking at the spline and a completely sighted person.

                        however, if the Adros Station KT-01AVE is capable of equally and simultaneously counteracting infrared homing heads with amplitude-phase (AFM), frequency-phase (ChFM), time-pulse (VIM) modulation of the signal from the target

                        Chago, chago? What modulation? What the hell are you talking about? You should conduct an educational program how the thermal imager works and what kind of "modulation" is there?

                        then there's nothing to be done about it :) the station is already capable of introducing interference into the operation of the thermal imager, and that’s all said, and up to one place it receives signal processing by the guidance head, because it already registers incorrect radiation.

                        Explain this nonsense on the fingers, and I laugh at him.

                        For military developments, they don’t give a Nobel prize, so the developers of such stations will get the maximum that they will receive this state prize at a closed event)))

                        The Nobel Prize is given for special achievements in the field of physics, and not for specific applications, whether it be an army or a citizen. Do you have other laws of physics in the army? wink

                        So I did not say that the tank will ever become more expensive, but this difference is not so big and nightmare. Why not set up regularly?

                        The cost of a helicopter will never be equal to the cost of a tank. They don’t put it properly, since this thing worth a million dollars is not affordable for most countries, and it’s not worth protecting every turntable in this way.
                      14. 0
                        14 July 2014 06: 49
                        Already, already.


                        Professor, you seem to be a smart person, but you just turned on denial for the sake of the argument. If you carefully read what I wrote to you:

                        They have the same principle, they all focus on radiation in the infrared spectrum, but how they process this radiation, but there can be significant differences ...
                        ... that’s all said, and up to one place the signal is processed by the guidance head, for it already registers the wrong radiation

                        Chago, chago? What modulation? What nonsense are you talking about?


                        Firstly, it’s not me who is carrying it, but the system developer (this is taken from its description). As for the thermal imager, if such a station interferes with it, then instead of a clear picture, it will get a blurry spot and filtering the heads of its guidance to the brain will be very difficult.

                        Do you have other laws of physics in the army?


                        No, of course, just everything that (or most) is created unique to the army often does not receive publicity wink

                        The cost of a helicopter will never equal ...


                        Are you like Grandfather Lenin between the lines and strictly diagonally reading what they write to you? laughing :
                        So I did not say that the tank will ever become more expensive, but this difference is not so big and nightmare

                        They don’t put it properly because this thing ...


                        Yeah, because almost everyone who does not buy with this option: 1) Do not participate in the hostilities and do not suffer losses. 2) They want to save (avaricious, as practice shows, pays twice: lose a turntable for 30 lei or overpay one). 3) For such countries, people are consumables and no one really cares about them.
                      15. 0
                        14 July 2014 09: 52
                        Professor, you seem to be a smart person, but you just turned on denial for the sake of the argument. If you carefully read what I wrote to you:

                        I don’t know how smart I am, but I wrote a dissertation on the subject of optical pattern recognition and I can (but I will not waste time) tell on my fingers how simple the method of guiding MANPADS (and therefore just drowning it out) is how complicated the method of guiding ATGMs and how difficult it is drown it out.

                        ... that’s all said, and up to one place the signal is processed by the guidance head, for it already registers the wrong radiation

                        Your level of knowledge does not allow me to explain to you how much you are mistaken. To argue about higher mathematics, you must first learn arithmetic.

                        Firstly, it’s not me who is carrying it, but the system developer (this is taken from its description). As for the thermal imager, if such a station interferes with it, then instead of a clear picture, it will get a blurry spot and filtering the heads of its guidance to the brain will be very difficult.

                        What modulation? Modulation of what? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Does the thermal imager matrix model the signal? For whom?

                        No, of course, just everything that (or most) is created unique to the army often does not receive publicity

                        We're talking about the laws of physics, not "secret developments for the army"

                        So I did not say that the tank will ever become more expensive, but this difference is not so big and nightmare

                        The difference is tens of millions of dollars. This is a disaster and an insurmountable obstacle even for the omnipotent United States, not to mention those who do not have a machine for printing dollars.

                        Yeah, because almost everyone who does not buy with this option:
                        1) Do not participate in hostilities and do not bear losses.

                        ..and buy helicopters for tens of millions of dollars to hunt wild boars. The USA and Israel take part in the hostilities and suffer losses, but did not notice this system on their helicopters.

                        2) They want to save (avaricious, as practice shows, pays twice: lose a turntable for 30 lei or overpay one).

                        Or in other words, efficiency in relation to danger does not justify investment ...

                        3) For such countries, people are consumables and no one really cares about them.

                        Well yes. For example, Israel offers $ 10 million for information about the captive navigator Ron Arad. Well, direct consumables and nobody really cares about it. And despite this, they have not yet installed a miracle system on their $ 60 million Long Bow. And you suggest putting it on tanks worth $ 3 million.
                      16. 0
                        14 July 2014 15: 44
                        How smart I do not know, but ...

                        Image recognition is post-processing of what the sensor read / received, whether it is a video camera or thermal imager matrix. But if in your previously worked out algorithm under normal, "correct conditions" you introduce a distortion initially (that is, what the sensor thought came with noise), then your algorithm will not process it correctly (well, if you wrote a thesis, then you know what I mean smile ) Have you seen how cool and ubiquitous British scientists turned a tank into a passenger car for a thermal imager? laughing The principle is the same there: to give the thermal imager distorted information about the read infrared radiation of objects, the implementation is different.
                        Your level of knowledge does not allow me to explain to you how much you are mistaken.

                        You know absolutely nothing about my level of knowledge, there is no need for this feigned pathos, because in this topic, apparently, you really are swimming yourself, you did not bring me more than one normal argument to my words, except for the unfounded "difficult to explain" (no offense, but this is what people who don't know anything usually say):
                        They have the same principle, they all focus on radiation in the infrared spectrum, but the way they process this radiation, but there can be significant differences ...
                        Maybe the thermal imager is not detecting infrared radiation? laughing Well, then yes)))
                        Quote: professor
                        What modulation? Modulation of what? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Does the thermal imager matrix model the signal? For whom?

                        Can you read? I repeat: the description of the Ukrainian Adros system is KT-01AVE (http://adron.ua/weoffer/developments/adros-kt-01-ave). It says about MANPADS. I wrote about the thermal imager. You already separate these two texts. Take a thermal imager if you have access to it, put a gas burner, and for its flame some object is blocked by a flame, but not completely, and then look at this matter in the thermal imager, then extinguish the flame and again look and understand what I'm talking about . When you aim at a target, your head receives a target mask, then when it flies it constantly searches for it (reads IR radiation in front of it) and corrects the flight. Now imagine that an object is constantly changing its IR radiation and instead of a tank (the mask of which in the memory of the ammunition) receives a huge spot or several spots that are constantly changing.
                        for tens of millions of dollars, combat helicopters are bought to hunt wild boars.

                        No, of course, they just try to use them so as not to go into a possible MANPADS coverage area (against many old types of MANPADS, shooting heat traps is enough)
                        Or in other words, efficiency in relation to danger does not justify investment ...

                        And this is also possible.
                        Israel offers $ 10 million for information about captive navigator Ron Arad
                        Who knows what this navigator knows? Maybe not so much for him as for some secret?)
                      17. -2
                        14 July 2014 15: 51
                        Further, I consider it useless to spend time on you, you are completely off topic and trying to talk about a spherical horse in a vacuum. Master the materiel, please contact. I have the honor.
                      18. 0
                        14 July 2014 17: 39
                        laughing which is to be expected. Here’s a small educational program for you, watch a video about the work of the President-s complex:

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfxHWWqsRQI

                        At 4:13 second, you can see how the helicopter with the working system shines into the thermal imager, while keeping in mind that the suppression stations in this implementation are directed, i.e. at the time of operation, they shine not in the thermal imager, but in the direction of the rocket, which is detected by an ultraviolet direction finder. If it were shining into it, then there would be a complete flare))) But even so it can be seen that the target mask is already heavily clogged with interference + shooting traps. ATGMs (such as Javelin, Spike, etc.), unlike MANPADS, fly much slower, i.e. system response by an order of magnitude less required. Well, so what about the topic and its development? laughing
                      19. -1
                        14 July 2014 20: 43
                        You are not in that weight category to give me an educational program. Study the materiel and come back. Then we will discuss a spherical horse in a vacuum. hi
                      20. +1
                        15 July 2014 06: 51
                        Well, where am I going to you, you Professor !!! laughing Okay, your drain is counted. Horses are discussed in agricultural forums, especially vacuum ones laughing Alas, the topic is not interesting to me) Thank you for a pleasant discussion hi
                      21. +1
                        19 July 2014 10: 00
                        Quote: professor
                        ..and buy helicopters for tens of millions of dollars to hunt wild boars. The USA and Israel take part in the hostilities and suffer losses, but did not notice this system on their helicopters.

                        Everything flows, everything changes... request
                      22. 0
                        14 July 2014 22: 01
                        Quote: adept666
                        well, however, physics sometimes surprises, it is not necessary to elevate its school (basic) course to the rank of absolute))) In practice, it often turns out that not everything that is written in textbooks is true in the first instance.

                        what the hell are you talking about?
                        any sensible person with the formation of the Soviet model is aware of a drop in the intensity of electromagnetic radiation in proportion to the square of the distance.
                        This is an axiom. Physical Constant.

                        And either you studied poorly, or just an idiot if you cast doubt on such facts.
                      23. 0
                        15 July 2014 06: 50
                        Firstly, the conversation was not with you, and secondly, I never wrote a refutation of the inverse square law anywhere. The Professor and I talked about the power of the lamp (his words: a lamp of such power does not exist in nature) and if you read the correspondence carefully, you would understand what I was hinting at to the Professor (by the way, apparently, he understood what I was about and began to play) ... So your input is not counted. And please tell me "educated on the Soviet" model as
                        This is an axiom. Physical Constant.
                        works with cylindrical fluorescent lamps, for example? request And yet, what kind of manner to pass on to individuals and insults? You need to be more cultural wink
                      24. 0
                        15 July 2014 13: 14
                        and what is wrong with daylight cylindrical lamps?
                      25. 0
                        15 July 2014 13: 49
                        Nothing special except that the "Axiom" and "Physical constant" - the inverse square law does not apply to them (as well as for sources of coherent, monochromatic, polarized and narrowly directed radiation flux) smile They are not point sources of light only, but they are certainly a source of electromagnetic radiation. Yes
                      26. 0
                        15 July 2014 14: 48
                        ohohonyushki ... along the way, the professor was right.
                        I am ending the dispute with you, in view of the complete hopelessness.
                      27. +1
                        15 July 2014 14: 50
                        Ahah, so you're from the same gang))) Ok, you also counted the drain. True, the Professor resisted a bit, and you somehow quickly, not even interested ... sad laughing
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Styx
        0
        11 July 2014 16: 25
        Quote: Saburov
        Elementaryly, in conditions of military combat, aiming at the target with laser, optical, and thermal imaging means is difficult, dust, smoke, light, electronic warfare and so on, so that you will aim at the target NLAW

        NLAW - Adjustable Grenade !!!!!!!!!!!!!

        NLAW Warhead Testing.

        1. 0
          12 July 2014 07: 23
          Quote: Styx

          NLAW - Adjustable Grenade !!!!!!!!!!!!!

          NLAW Warhead Testing.



          NLAW is the next generation anti-tank grenade launcher. NLAW is not adjustable, but simply not a tube like a grant from a conventional grenade launcher no more. NLAW allows you to increase the likelihood of hitting the target at a target of 500m.
  3. +4
    10 July 2014 10: 17
    Congratulations to China on joining the third generation ATGM owners club.
    1. 0
      10 July 2014 12: 21
      Quote: professor
      Congratulations to China on joining the third generation ATGM owners club.

      AND EVERYTHING SUCH ARE NOT CLEARED WITHOUT HELP OF ISRAEL ...
      Chinese, excellent copiers but invent with 000 by yourself, this is unlikely. or ...
    2. 0
      10 July 2014 16: 38
      good evening all spike problems solved no longer falls in front of military representatives
    3. -2
      11 July 2014 13: 49
      the professor is not afraid that this product will be in the wrong hands, but we have already figured out that KAZ Trophy will not save Merkava 4M from this type of weapon.
      1. 0
        11 July 2014 14: 30
        Quote: bmv04636
        the professor is not afraid that this product will be in the wrong hands, but we have already figured out that KAZ Trophy will not save Merkava 4M from this type of weapon.

        Learn materiel, there is no such tank Merkava 4M.
        1. 0
          11 July 2014 14: 51
          Thank you for indicating the error of Merkava Mk.4 with KAZ trophy, but they did not answer the question
          1. 0
            11 July 2014 15: 07
            Quote: bmv04636
            the professor is not afraid that this product will be in the wrong hands, but we have already figured out that KAZ Trophy will not save Merkava 4M from this type of weapon.

            will save
            1. 0
              11 July 2014 15: 12
              due to what the professor will save due to the fact that he is flying slowly
              1. +2
                11 July 2014 21: 03
                Quote: bmv04636
                due to what the professor will save due to the fact that he is flying slowly

                Probably it would be more correct to ask in Russian this way: "Due to what, professor, will he save? Due to the fact that it flies slowly?"
                Did I understand you correctly?
  4. -1
    10 July 2014 10: 22
    "The disadvantage or at least an ambiguous feature of the newest Chinese ATGM is the maximum launch range of 2 km."

    Short chain mail.
    1. duke
      +1
      10 July 2014 10: 32
      well, it’s for now, over time they will do more long-range ones, the main thing is that they do it ...
      1. +2
        10 July 2014 13: 24
        here is a photo, a 3rd generation ATGM of Red Arrow 12 or HJ-12 ...
        already tested at the training grounds and the Chinese army .... click
        1. 0
          10 July 2014 13: 57
          Quote: cosmos111
          here is a photo, a 3rd generation ATGM of Red Arrow 12 or HJ-12 ...
          already tested at the training grounds and the Chinese army .... click

          It seems to me it's not him. PU is not the same and the tube is horizontal ...
          1. 0
            10 July 2014 16: 46
            Yes, it will be hard now Merkavam
            1. +1
              11 July 2014 00: 03
              And do not say ... and the T-72? Let's not talk about sad things ...
              1. -1
                11 July 2014 11: 14
                T-72 tank A tank of the 20th century and ammunition stockpile of the 21st century is not worth destroying a game of sheepskin (costs will not pay off) there are vampires for this, but Merkava 4 with a windbreaker is another matter
                Then look at who this toy will end up with at the same hezbola. To check merkav 4 so to speak with a windbreaker.
          2. +1
            11 July 2014 09: 09
            Quote: professor
            It seems to me that it is not him. PU is not the same and the tube is horizontal

            Most likely a Chinese bazooka.
  5. Styx
    +3
    10 July 2014 10: 46
    Raytheon has created a new cheap chip for thermal imagers. This will provide each soldier in the platoon with weapons with a thermal imager.

    http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/feature/rtn14_thermal.html

    Apparently, this will lead to a significant reduction in the cost of 3rd generation ATGMs. (but not in Russia, of course)
  6. +2
    10 July 2014 10: 55
    cool the Chinese on copies of the Hummers, with copies of the javelins fly on copies of F 22)))) all the same we are terribly catching up about their greatness.
    1. +2
      10 July 2014 11: 01
      Quote: Aslan
      cool the Chinese on copies of the Hummers, with copies of the javelins fly on copies of F 22)))) all the same we are terribly catching up about their greatness.

      You know partially yes, it looks like that, but there are things that make you think ...
      1. +8
        10 July 2014 13: 20
        The Chinese have an ancient proverb (think about it!):
        "If you managed to copy the master, then you yourself are the master."

        Copying exactly something good is considered wonderful by them.
        achievement worthy of respect and glory.
  7. +1
    10 July 2014 11: 51
    It should be noted that a similar approach to the design led to the fact that the Red Arrow 12 complex even looks similar to the foreign counterpart - the American ATGM FGM-148 Javelin
    Wait, they will accuse the Americans of plagiarism ...
  8. +1
    10 July 2014 12: 19
    Quote: Nayhas
    Domestic "monsters" of the military-industrial complex are all playing around with lasers, presenting their crafts as ingenious developments.

    At one time, these developments were really brilliant. In the days of the USSR. Of course, now you can swagger over the MIG-21 and the battleship Yamato and the B-29. But for their time, they were outstanding cars. Like domestic ATGMs, which are a cut above the western ones.
    At the same time, a photosensitive homing or television head is not such a discovery. In the distant 50-60, Strela-10 was precisely with a photosensitive GOS. 50 years passed. Is it really difficult to create a more sensitive matrix? Not difficult. Just someone would order and give money. We won the Olympics, then the Formula-1. That pipeline to China must be pulled .... In short, the defense industry after all commercial projects is underway.
  9. +5
    10 July 2014 16: 20
    It’s a shame, Comrades ... China’s 3rd generation ATGM is already stamping, and we are still drawing pluses (2, 2+, 2 ++ ...) .. crying ..
    1. 0
      11 July 2014 23: 36
      Here, here, I very much hope that our leadership of the Ministry of Defense will nevertheless take up their minds and adopt the 3rd generation ATGM system, at least the same "Autonomy" or "Kornet-MR". And then it's just a shame for our army and power that we don't have 3rd generation anti-tank systems crying .
  10. 0
    10 July 2014 16: 55
    and do not announce the speed of this miracle of a rocket, or it’s as slow as a spike from Raphael
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. 0
    11 July 2014 12: 04
    good cure for these slowly creeping (sorry for all the same flying)
    1. 0
      12 July 2014 20: 32
      This is a medicine for covering tanks from helicopters.
      Just why did you call them slowly crawling? They fly
      how they can ...
      1. 0
        13 July 2014 22: 15
        Well, not only from helicopters, but also from cruise missiles, just missiles also from manpower in light shelters
  13. Styx
    0
    11 July 2014 12: 53
    Quote: bmv04636
    good cure for these slowly creeping (sorry for all the same flying)

    laughing
    The "shell" could not shoot down the E95M air target with anti-aircraft guns.
    1. 0
      11 July 2014 13: 09
      for this he has rockets and a small UAV generally crashed unable to withstand the radar exposure
  14. Crimea-nyash
    0
    24 July 2014 21: 24
    an ordinary, medium-level ptrs. our bassoon, and even more so, the competition for the release of the late 80s is much more reliable, as it has a duplicate (manual) guidance system that allows you to redirect from one target to another after launch, in case of jamming by the target. Yes, and the competition beats for 4 km. Which is very important. In general, garbage is a complete copy of this javelin.