The myth of the "preemptive" strike of the Reich was created by Hitler and Goebbels

One of the methods of information-psychological war of the West against Russia, designed to put our people and our state on a par with the Nazi criminals, the instigators of the Second World War, was the myth of the outbreak of war by Hitler, as a preventive strike. They say that Berlin just wanted to prevent the attack of the Soviet Union on it, delivered a preemptive strike against the Soviet troops already prepared for the attack.

So, holding the speech in November 1941 in Munich in front of his old party colleagues, Adolf Hitler said the following: “From April to May ... I followed all the processes, full of determination at any moment, as soon as it became clear to me that the enemy was preparing to attack , if necessary, get ahead of it by 24 hours. In mid-June, the signs became threatening, and in the second half of June, there was no doubt that we were talking about weeks or even days. And then I gave the order to speak on June 22. ” According to A. Hitler, it was the most difficult decision in his life, but he was forced to take it, as there are more chances to win if you hit before the Union.

But this is just a myth that refutes a number of facts, one of them is a comparative analysis of the military-strategic plans that were developed at that time in Berlin and in Moscow. So, German developments are all “saturated” with the ideas of “lightning war”, “onslaught on the East”. In Berlin in December 1940, the famous Barbarossa plan was approved, which outlined the general plan for waging war against the Soviet Union. His main idea is a “lightning war”, the Wehrmacht had to solve the “problem” of the USSR in no more than 5 months and move on to solving the problem with regard to Great Britain. The troops were to go to the Arkhangelsk-Volga line, capturing the Baltic states, Leningrad, Belarus, Ukraine, the Central region with Moscow, the North Caucasus. Ural industrial area was to be reachable for action aviation, on this the main campaign was supposed to end. They planned to complete preparations for the war by mid-May 1941, by which time the Wehrmacht should have had enough forces to wage a “lightning war”. A whole bloc was put together against the Union, consisting of Italy, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Croatia joined them, France supported the government of Vichy, Spain, Portugal and Turkey. Berlin had almost all of Europe’s military and economic potential for a “lightning strike” with all the power combined under the power of the black swastika of Europe.

That is, Berlin struck during the Wehrmacht’s maximum readiness, the Barbarossa plan was carried out punctually. Colossal work was done to prepare the infrastructure, for example, on May 7, the Chief of the General Staff of the Reich Ground Forces, Colonel-General F. Halder, made the following entry in his Military Journal: “The state of the railways and highways for Operation Barbarossa is satisfactory. Concentration on the plan "Barbarossa": 17 thousand trains. After the transfer of troops is completed, the transportation of reserves will begin. ” 12 May Halder writes: "In the army groups" North "and" Center "basically everything that we planned was done." From 22 May, the railways have moved to an accelerated traffic schedule. At the same time, Moscow was “thrown” with misinformation messages - about regrouping troops for the operation against England, about the proximity of the talks between Moscow and Berlin, etc. At the end of May and beginning of June, the exact time of the strike was approved.

In the evening of June 20, Hitler appealed to the troops about the allegedly forced nature of the actions of Germany, which "responded" to the "concentration of Russian troops on the eastern border of the Third Reich." Moreover, the Fuhrer brazenly lied about the "constant violations of the border" by the USSR (it was just the opposite), that a few weeks ago, "there was not a single German border on our eastern border tank or motorized division. " Having formulated the "modern" myth that Germany opposed the "conspiracy of the Jewish-Anglo-Saxon arsonists and the Jewish rulers of the Bolshevik center in Moscow."

And on June 22, the German ambassador to the USSR, V. Schulenburg, presented Molotov with a document on the beginning of the war, he was also accused of large-scale preparation of the war against the Third Reich, and it was said about the beginning of the Reich war against the Soviet Union because of the danger of striking the Germans.

A great method, it is well used and the current Western ideologues of the United States, NATO - you want to achieve something, accuse the enemy of what you are doing or plan to do. So, arranging a genocide in Iraq or Yugoslavia, fomenting a war there, the United States, NATO blamed the Serbian leaders, Saddam Hussein. That is, the current internal and external enemies of Russia use ideas created by the leaders of the Third Reich, symbolically, by their deeds, getting into the camp of aggressors, instigators of war against Russia. Although it is not superfluous for them to remember what ended up with all the leaders of the war against our Motherland, the result will be one.

USSR plans

If we study the plans of the military-political leadership of the USSR, the military changes in the Red Army, we can note the following - by June 1941, the Red Army was not in its best “form”. The rapid growth of the army, from 1,9 million in 1939 to almost 5 million to 1 in June 1941, led to the fact that the simultaneous deployment of a large number of new units and formations in a short time led to a general decrease in their material security. affected the alert. Thus, for the military actions in the initial period, it was noted that the “old” cavalry divisions, which retained the command cadres and level of training, showed high combat capability. Most of the armored, mechanized units of the Red Army were also reorganized. New lines of fortifications on the new western borders were not prepared, and fortified areas on the old borders were conserved. Due to the sharp growth of the army, the command corps also increased dramatically, and it also lacked experience and skills. There was a retraining on new equipment.

A number of mistakes and the highest military command in the person of the People’s Commissar of Defense of the Soviet Union, Marshal SK Tymoshenko (since May 1940 of the year) and Chief of the General Staff of the Army General GK Zhukov (since January 1941 of the year) have so incorrectly determined the main direction of the main attack of the Wehrmacht, they thought that the main attack would be in the south-western direction (Ukraine). Thus, when processing the operational plan in February-April of 1941, this strategic miscalculation was not corrected. The last adjustment was made in May - early June 1941 of the year, entitled “Considerations on the strategic deployment plan of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies”. 24 May this document, which is called "Zhukov's note", was discussed at a secret meeting. As a result, the opinion finally won out that the main blow would fall on Ukraine, therefore the Kiev Special Military District was allocated up to 50% of divisions on the western borders.

In this regard, there was a proposal to "preempt" the enemy in deployment, and to attack the Wehrmacht in the process of its deployment. It was envisaged that 152's Soviet divisions would crush the 100 divisions of Germany in the main direction Krakow-Katowice, and then from the Katowice area continue the offensive operation, break the Wehrmacht in the center and in the north of their front, capturing the territory of the former Poland and East Prussia. It was these ideas that became the main argument for the modern defenders of the myth of the “instigator of the war of the USSR”.

But, first, for this, the decision of the political leadership of the country was needed, but it was not; on the contrary, it wanted to delay the start of the war as soon as possible or prevent the start of the war altogether. Secondly, it was necessary to work out all the details of the operation, prepare the rear for it. Third, to create the necessary offensive groups in the right directions, which was also not done. This is just a proposal, working out one of the possible scenarios of actions of the Red Army in the event of a threat.

The truth is in real actions and documents of the Third Reich, and they say that the Hitlerites were preparing for aggression not for “pre-emption”, but for expanding “living space”, solving the “Russian question”, a step towards building their “World Order”. Hitler himself 21 July 1940, at a meeting of senior military and political leadership said: "The Russians do not want war." The German generals, the same Halder, were sure of this, intelligence reported about it - Russia would only defend itself.

Moscow did not need large-scale wars, and without that it was full of worries, and she was not ready for such a war, preparations had not yet been completed. The Soviet Union did not need "living spaces", slaves, the idea of ​​"world revolution" Stalin buried in the second half of the 20-s. The USSR needed peace.

Sources of:
Meltyukhov M.I. Lost chance of Stalin. The Soviet Union and the struggle for Europe: 1939-1941. M., 2000.
Suvorov V. Ledokol: Who started the Second World War? M., 1996.
http://www.fondsk.ru/
http://www.webcenter.ru/~posevru/nomer/ne01/ne106/ne1063.htm
http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov/index.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov1/index.html
http://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/History/Article/Pl_Barb.php
http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/index.html

Comments

[alex20081308]

But what did Germany need at that moment in war ??? Not a single author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained why, by the end of June, the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border. Not one author, again except Rezun, he didn’t clearly explain why Stalin went to the elimination of Poland by creating a common border with Germany. And while there is no other clear explanation of these issues, he has to adhere to his opinion. Well, and then I agree again with Rezun, what is so bad about attacking fascist germany ???? And as for the Second World War, so it began not at 41 but at 39. so the author again stuffs us with a set of meaningless propaganda phrases without the slightest fact. Article is nonsense. The author is a big minus

[Ruslan67]

Quote: alex20081308

.And so far there is no other intelligible explanation of these issues, we have to adhere to his opinion

Do you remember when the first book of this female dog appeared? At that time, our domestic historiography did not give answers to many questions in principle After that, at least somehow they moved, although some would rather be silent

[discard]

And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different areas of politics and economics.
Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

[Ruslan67]

Quote: discard

Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

It's time to connect the administrative resource I’m not enough for your whole pack

[smile]

Ruslan67
a lot of honor. And so crush! :))))

[Combitor]

Ruslan67 (3) 20 July 2013 10:06 ↑ They do not need an "administrative" but a "physical and power" resource in the form of a fist.

[Bigriver]

Quote: discard

And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different directions of politics ...

Yes!
Stalin was omnipotent !!! Even after his death, he invisible rays acted on the generals of the Wehrmacht so that they wrote the necessary memoirs with evidence of the unpreparedness of the Red Army.
In general, everyone lies and only you and Rezun know the hidden truth.

[Yarosvet]

Quote: discard

And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different areas of politics and economics.
Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

You are only right that the sudden attack of Germany is a myth.

[washi]

Really. The attack was not sudden. Stalin gave the order, through the People’s Commissariats another 19.06 to transfer to a higher. Then there were directives for translation in full.
The NKVD and the Red Army took the enemy, and the Red Army in the ass. Conclusion: Tymoshenko and Zhukov, who did not want to organize a defense, are to blame.
But Zhukov, the representative of the district from which the greatest number of traitors came out, in general .....
As proved, during the arrest of Beria
We will discuss Beria separately
And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different areas of politics and economics. This was beneficial for political reasons. Shooting NGSH at the beginning of the war is not profitable.

[Yarosvet]

This is not even the case: on June 21, Germany, through her ambassador, tried to officially declare war on the USSR, but it was vital that a formal declaration of war did not happen. It did not happen.

[Djozz]

In my opinion, the order was issued on 18.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX. Pavlov ignored this order, Bagramyan confirmed the presence of this order after the war, as did some generals.

[smile]

discard
Prala! the whole paoata number 6 mental hospital. in which they keep you, knows that on June 22 we attacked the whole world with the goal of enslaving it. and only the titanic efforts of the main defender of European values, Hitler, saved the planet .... and how do you manage to scribble comments in a straitjacket? kicked up with your feet? ... do not eat as much chlorpromazine anymore and do not indulge in electric shocks, otherwise they will not be released from the madhouse ... :))))))

[Setrac]

Quote: discard

And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different areas of politics and economics.

And where is the myth? The Wehrmacht was mobilized and deployed, the Red Army was in the process of mobilization, stretched across the country. And although Stalin knew about the impending attack, the fact of the unpreparedness of the Red Army, the attack was sudden, and given the agreement - treacherous.

[Spiegel]

If the Red Army was stretched across the country, then where did 1 million captured Red Army soldiers come from by December 1941, 3.8? And this is not counting the irreparable loss. I had to talk about a sudden attack, there was nothing to do.

[Rider]

Quote: Spiegel

where did 1 million captured Red Army soldiers come from by December 1941, 3.8?

I advise you to read:http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-pows-in-german-captivity-chapter1/stranitsa-4-k
olichestvo-sovetskikh-voennoplennikh.html

quote:K. Streit, the most authoritative expert on Soviet prisoners of war in the Second World War, claims that in 1941 the Wehrmacht captured 2 soldiers and commanders of the Red Army, including: Army Group North - 465, Army Group Center - 000 and Army Group South - 84. And this is only in large "boilers". In total, according to Streit's estimates, 000 million Soviet servicemen were captured by the German armed forces in 1. This represents approximately 413% ​​of the total number of Soviet prisoners of war captured in the period from June 000, 968 to May 000, 1941.
but how did the difference in 1limon of the peopleHere we must immediately make a reservation that the German data seem to be overestimated because the declared number of prisoners often exceeds the number of armies and fronts that took part in a particular operation. The most striking example of this is the Kiev boiler. The Germans announced the capture of 665 people east of the Ukrainian capital, although the full payroll of the Southwestern Front did not exceed 000 by the time the Kiev defensive operation began. Moreover, about 627 Red Army men remained outside the encirclement ring, and about 000 more managed to get out of the "cauldron".

and: it should be borne in mind that the Germans could include such categories of Soviet citizens as prisoners of war: captured partisans, underground workers, personnel of incomplete formations of the national militia, local air defense, fighter battalions and police, as well as railwaymen and paramilitary groups of civilian departments. Plus, a certain number of civilians hijacked for forced labor in the Reich or occupied countries, as well as those taken hostage, also got here.

and:Here is an excerpt from the order of the command of the 2nd Tank Army of May 11, 1943:

“When occupying individual settlements, it is necessary to immediately and suddenly capture existing men between the ages of 15 and 65, if they can be counted among those capable of carrying weapons, and send them under guard by rail to the transit camp 142 in Bryansk. , to declare that they will henceforth be considered prisoners of war, and that at the slightest attempt to escape they will be shot. "

I advise you to study history from documents, and not from salted calculations.

[Spiegel]

Listen, Rider, it’s not a problem to go to www.battlefield.ru/ and find your source there. The passage quoted by you says: All in all, according to Streight in 1941, 3,4 million Soviet troops were captured by the German armed forces
And it also says that accurate calculation is difficult. So a 3.8 or 3.4 million figure is very close. This does not change the essence of the matter. In 1941, more than 3 million troops were captured. So Rezun has nothing to do with it. But why, in such a short period of time, almost the entire personnel army was lost?

[Rider]

Quote: Spiegel

no problem go to the site www.battlefield.ru/

so go and read ATTENTIVELY.

Quote: Spiegel

So a 3.8 or 3.4 million figure is very close.

for rezun fans, almost unambiguous.
for a NORMAL person, 400 PEOPLE, this is not a line in the report.

Quote: Spiegel

But why, in such a short period of time, almost the entire personnel army was lost?

Well, read ATTENTIVELY.
and then you will understand that the FAR FRAMEWORK ARMY was knocked out.

and by the way, for how long did the armies of France and Poland cease to exist?
maybe having learned the answer to this question, you will find the answer to the question "WHY THE RKKA COULD NOT STOP THE VERMACHT AT THE BORDER?"

[Andrew-001]

Quote: discard

Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" German attack

Schulenburg told us about the war at a time when German bombs were already raining down on Soviet cities.
And those whales are transatlantic - those you think are creepy dictators. The Japanese ambassador with a note declaring war arrived at the US Foreign Ministry almost an hour before the attack on Pearl Harbor. So they still haven’t accepted him - they were figly saying that the cross-eyed minister decided to wake him up at such an early age.

[Snoop]

The sudden myth? Stalin? In fact, if you read the newspapers and books of that time, it was a treacherous attack, even Molotov’s speech contained the thesis of a treacherous attack. It later began in the Khrushchev era.

[sleepy]

Quote: discard
"And Stalin created the myth of the" SUDDEN "attack by Germany
and many more myths in various areas of politics and economics.
Mythology is a favorite child of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created. "

The fact that Stalin was a dictator is a myth.

"The teacher of the German language Uvarova recalls what happened when she decided to give Vasily (Stalin) a two, and for outright rudeness: he replied to the offer to answer the lesson:" Something I don't want today ... ".
On the same day, she was called to the director and a dialogue took place between them: - The son of Comrade Stalin is an example for all students, no matter how he studies, whether he answers the lesson or does not want to answer.
Comrade Stalin's son is an exception to the general rule "(Quoted from: V. Kraskova, Kremlin Children. Minsk. 1998, p. 118).
However, one of the teachers still decided to complain to his father about the son’s art. Stalin's answer is widely known, but it will be useful to cite it again.
"For teacher Comrade Martyshin.
Your letter about the art of Vasily Stalin received. Thanks for your letter. I answer very late due to workload.
I apologize. Vasily is a spoiled young man of average ability, savage, not always true, likes to blackmail the weak,
often impudent, with a weak, or rather - an unorganized will.
He was spoiled by all sorts of "gods" and "gossips", now and then emphasizing,
that he is "Stalin's son".
http://www.x-libri.ru/elib/prudn000/00000143.htm

Facts are stubborn things. Would Stalin be a dictator, would he bother with the problem of some teacher?

[Setrac]

Quote: sleepy

Your letter about the art of Vasily Stalin received. Thanks for your letter. I answer very late due to workload.

What kind of crap is this? Stalin could not write such a thing about his son! He had no such son - Vasily Stalin, but was - Vasily Dzhugashvili. Stalin is not a surname, but in the West they don’t understand it, it’s ridiculous

[sleepy]

Quote: Setrac
"... Stalin could not write that about his son!
He didn’t have such a son - Vasily Stalin,
and there was Vasily Dzhugashvili ... "

Sukhomlinov Andrey Viktorovich
Vasily, the son of the leader
http://modernlib.ru/books/suhomlinov_andrey/vasiliy_sin_vozhdya/read/

"So, on the case Vasily Stalin, which was also under control in the Central Committee, many documents were copied. They were stored until recently
in the Archive of the President of the Russian Federation, and now transferred
to the Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History.
Documents are carefully taken into account, neatly filed, stored in special folders and special storages, where the required temperature regime is maintained. I worked with these documents ... "

MAKEEB TO STALIN
15th of June 1938
Dear Joseph Vissarionovich!
By order of the People's Commissar of Enlightenment, I was removed from work. Director of study. The main reason, in fact, is the issue of education
and training your son Vasya, A letter to you comrade Martyshina V.V.
and your answer to him played a decisive role.
Deputy People's Commissar of Education Comrade Likhachev, not having heard a report on my work and without making any examination, made a hasty conclusion,
does not reveal the real reasons for the unsatisfactory work of the school and the upbringing and education of Vasya ... "http://modernlib.ru/books/suhomlinov_andrey/vasiliy_sin_vozhdya/read/

At all times there were those who were not afraid of the authorities
and those who get rid of such people in ways that are accessible to them.

[Setrac]

Quote: sleepy

So, in the case of Vasily Stalin

So tell me, is Stalin a name or a surname?

[sleepy]

Quote: Setrac
"Tell me, is Stalin a name or a surname?"

At first, Stalin was a party pseudonym.
Like Kozma Prutkov - a literary pseudonym.

Subsequently, the pseudonym migrated to the documents and became a surname.

"Was Vasily Stalin the youngest general?"
http://poltora-bobra.livejournal.com/96743.html

[Setrac]

Quote: sleepy

At first, Stalin was a party pseudonym.

Whoever doubted that Stalin was a pseudonym is also Newton’s bin to me.
For the list:
Vasily Stalin
Nadezhda Konstantinovna Lenina
Eva Hitler
Four senility put me cons

[dmitrich]

if you are so smart, then don’t show everyone that you are such a fool.

[vjhbc]

tell me if a person is a normal leader taking care of his country and he is not from the Anglo-Saxons or their protectorates, then he is a bad dictator and if on the other hand, then a democrat and a good person

Quote: discard

And Stalin created the myth of the "SUDDEN" attack by Germany and many more myths in different areas of politics and economics.
Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

[Combitor]

And Stalin created myths about the destruction of civilians (children, women, old people) in the occupied territories? And the fascists did not burn entire villages with people? And there were no concentration camps in which civilians were killed along with prisoners of war? And the Germans did not have crematoria and gas chambers? And the Germans did not conduct their savage medical experiments on people? It was all there. This could only be done by those who planned an attack on another state. This cannot be prepared and implemented quickly. Or in order to "punish" the USSR, Hitler and his accomplices developed a monstrous system of exterminating the population of the occupied territories of our country?
alex20081308 and discard, you are lucky not to be born before the war. Otherwise, even from you and your like, even a memory would not exist. If Judas-Rezun-Suvorov is your idol and ideal, read it somewhere in the outhouse, but do not repeat after him his fabrications and lies in the company of normal people. Because you can very strongly run into a strong fist with your face.
And about Stalin I’ll tell you what is right for people like you who are rotting in the camps. But little rot, born from the survivors a lot of rot.

[KazaK Bo]

Quote: alex20081308

No author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained why, by the end of June, the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border

Explained and many times. Rezun (Suvorov) was right, the troops were concentrated. The time was ... well, it was very hectic !!! But ... if you have military training, then you should know that every self-respecting state and its army has plans for combat and mobilization cover the border ... and just your own territory. In this regard, it was calculated that if we were attacked, the Red Army would quickly defeat the advanced units of the enemy and ONLY THEN would transfer the hostilities to the enemy's lands! This was not hidden. They even sang about it in the songs. Here is this plan, Rezun, calling it Operation Zarya, making a small substitution of concepts and passing it off as a plan for the war of RUSSIA against GERMANY. The USSR did not plan ANY preventive measures! There is not a single document about this!
Stalin really didn't need a war. After the apologist of the world revolution and the creation of a single state from agrarian Russia and the industrial country GERMANY, the main "talker and troublemaker", a certain N. BUKHARIN, left the political arena (therefore he was categorically against industrialization), we built our state based on our own strength. And we had enough resources for this, unlike Germany!
Germany needed markets for its goods, territories for the resettlement of a rapidly growing population, sources of raw materials!
And why the USSR brought its troops into the territory of POLAND - please, look at the geography and history ... you will see that these are the territories of the former Russia, given to Poland after the "loud failure" of the Tukhachevsky war with the Poles. And they are inhabited mainly by Ukrainians and Belarusians ... despite the policy of assimilation and displacement of the original peoples from these lands.

[Setrac]

Quote: KazaK Bo

Rights Rezun (Suvorov), the troops were concentrated. Time was

This is available information, 4.3 million from the Wehrmacht versus 3.1 million from the USSR on the western border of the USSR at the beginning of the war, given that the total number of the Red Army is 5.8 million - it can be seen that a significant part of the troops did not manage to be transferred to the border.

[Revolver]

Quote: Setrac

This is available information, 4.3 million from the Wehrmacht versus 3.1 million from the USSR on the western border of the USSR at the beginning of the war, given that the total number of the Red Army is 5.8 million - it can be seen that a significant part of the troops did not manage to be transferred to the border.

What do you mean "did not have time to transfer"? The USSR, in addition to the western one, had a border in the Caucasus with not very friendly Turkey, Central Asia, where the Basmachis were playing naughty until recently, and a border with Manchuria (+ Mongolia) on which the Japanese stood. Don't you think that the rest of the troops were covering those directions that I listed above?

[Spiegel]

A significant part of the troops had to be held in the Far East against Japan. It turns out that most of the troops in the western territory of the USSR were concentrated right at the border.

[OTTO]

Quote: alex20081308

No author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained

Rezun explained everything ... Only now all his explanations are based on a juggling of facts and a hysterical screech in the presentation of the material.

[Ruslan67]

Quote: OTTO

all his explanations are based on a juggling of facts and a hysterical screech in the presentation of the material.

But it squeals like a first mover on a mating, to the whole world. And there are those who not only listen to him but even understand something else.

[Spiegel]

The screeching, unfortunately, is heard from a completely different direction. And there is no logic in that screeching, just as there is no thought. You have to think on your own, listen to all sides, all arguments. Calling a spade a spade: Rezun is a traitor, he has no respect for that, but he is not mentally retarded. Stalin and Hitler are villains, but also not at all UO. If you listen to opponents of Rezun's point of view, then Stalin turns out to be a round UO, which I do not believe at all. Then why, if he is not a UO, he concentrated troops, equipment and warehouses at the very border? Would anyone give a convincing explanation for this fact, or not? So far, only Rezun gave his convincing version, which made me feel better. At least I began to suspect that our military leaders were neither suckers nor idiots, but were simply preparing to attack. And they rubbed our glasses on us that the whole problem is that Hitler attacked treacherously, chivalrously without warning "I'm going on you!" And what the hell does it matter who attacked first? Everything was ready for war, we had already fought with Finland, we entered the territory of Poland, and did not wait peacefully at our old borders. Why do spears break around the one who was ready to attack first? What is this fundamental question? We attacked Finland and Poland, and nothing. It is important who fought for what! And we fought against the cannibals, and could be the first to strike these cannibals. You look, and less blood would have cost. In the meantime, I am haunted by the thought of Karl von Clausewitz, who is respected by all the military: "A statesman who sees that war is inevitable and cannot dare to strike first is guilty of a crime against his own country." Who has anything to argue with Clausewitz on the merits?

[mark7]

I think Stalin just did not have time to do it.

[smile]

mirror
Rezun not UO. he is a seasoned, professional liar .... arguing. that only this liar explained everything you confess. that in their life they read only a rezun and a primer ... everything ...
Claiming that Stalin is either. or the smartest person. who wanted to conquer the universe, you fell for the simplest logical trick, like a drunk schoolgirl in the clutches of a maniac ... what other options didn’t come into your head? You that. have you put on blinders, or are you mentally defective from birth? Consider again the logic of your phrase about Stalin .... and be ashamed of your limitations ...
The rezun has no versions of his own. He passed the Goebbels version of the causes of war word for word. All. And if you already refer. then refer to the source, and you say, you are all durrraks here, you don’t understand anything. but such a truthful person. as Dr. Goebbels alone knew the truth ... and told everyone it ... :))) it will be more honest ... :)))
We did not enter the territory of Poland. We entered our lands, previously torn away by Poland during the war of aggression unleashed by it. Do you catch the difference? :))) And they really waited peacefully on their borders.
Nobody breaks copies. historians of the whole planet agree that our version is correct. And just gobbels with a cutter to the heap, do not agree ... well. you are still drawn in your wretched point of view .... what do you think, even British historians despise vain rezon?
Clausewitz read the thought with great pleasure about you :)))) he was lying under the table for a long time and was bent over from a gnaw .... don’t tell me that anymore :))) It’s even more fun that you are trying to hide your little body behind it ... :)))
Tell me. and what do you mind. if all you wrote is nonsense? You don’t know the simplest things (I don’t think that you are pretending to be an idiot for fun) .... go ... and read at least something about Rezun ... even the Bible .... otherwise make a miserable impression ...
but to hide behind Clausewitz, they say you’re not sending me his name HIS :)))) I haven’t seen him here in plain text :)))) You are probably used to arguing with junior high school students ... your lies will not work here .. . :))))

[Spiegel]

Yes, there are no arguments, as always. Where is the lie? My text just poses questions. There are simply no answers to them, hence some insults, and this is a manifestation of weakness :-) Let Rezun himself a liar to the tenth degree, but he gave an interesting version. Then Hitler, in his statement, may not even lie. But from this he will not cease to be Hitler. Our historians have not given any convincing version, except for miserable attempts to justify the powerlessness of the authorities in the initial period of the war. And the argument about the fair return of their territories in Poland is finally :-) As they say, without comment. I now believe that Crimea was given to Ukraine stupidly and unfairly. And what, can we rightly attack this independent state? Well, in Finland, what were we looking for then? According to your logic, they also had a right, because it was necessary to move the border from Peter :-) And Clausewitz is essentially still right, you have nothing to argue with.

[smile]

Spiegels
Lies in everything, in every word ... in each ... do I need to write a book and state in the comments? let’s say so, you state the most, in your opinion, justified postulate of the rezun, justify it with something. except his brechology and .... we will trample on him with argument! :))))) It's all right?
And interesting versions of the rezun were invented by his grandparent-grandfather Goebbels ... read more., Nothing new and interesting in his writings would not be found ... I earnestly ask you to get rid of Rezun's expressions - this is me about "our historians" :))) the trouble is Tom. what do you. like a parrot repeating after a rezun about "our historians" these historians have not read ... no ... it can be seen in our statements ... read at least that. that you have already been recommended on this thread .. it will be a shame that you believed a deliberate liar, and a liar. which can be exposed simply on the basis of logic. after reading several of his writings ...
I do not understand. the fact that Poland captured the Russian lands with a predominant Rx. Ukrainian and Belarusian people welcome you? The fact that they conducted a vicious polonization and oppression of non-Poles is welcomed by you? Rapa is the uncle of my granny - legionaries who received land under the Vilna captured by the Poles. I know what I'm talking about ..
As I understand it, the slogan is: "Polska from Helsinfors to Tmfliss". and "my main dream is to reach the Kremlin and write on its walls" It is forbidden to speak Russian "" proclaimed by Pilsudski at the beginning of the war of conquest in Poland, are you also welcome? What are you after that?
The theme of Finland, illegally created contrary to international law of the Entente thereafter. how the Germans drowned in blood all the Finns who fought for the abandonment of this guyuernia as part of Russia and the fact that they had been preparing for an aggressive coalition war with us for 20 years is separate. She was all ours ...
I repeat, let’s say so, you affirm ONE postulate. Any. you justify it with documents or something else ... but I will crush you ... also with documents ... and don’t think that I’m self-confident - it’s just easier for me — everything was done before me, I just need to use it. especially since the facts and documents are for me ... because it’s harder for you ....
I will answer tomorrow at about 13 Moscow time.

[Spiegel]

Dear Smile, who told you. What do I excuse Rezun? 8-) I will explain my position. I have enough years to remember well how the failures of the first period of the war were explained in history textbooks in schools and universities. They were not ready, did not have time, Stalin Sorge did not believe it, all the troops therefore were concentrated on the border. The equipment in the parks, the fuel was drained, the planes at the airfields as a parade, etc. The Germans did not warn us, hence all the troubles - we lost almost all the planes at the airfields, about 3 million people were captured. Before the war, the fortified areas were disarmed. At the command-staff game, Zhukov completely smashed Pavlov and in a short time reached Minsk. In general, everyone before the war was either gullible, like children, or simply stupid. And Stalin, and the entire General Staff, and Zhukov. But we are used to being proud of our country, we are the first in space, we won the war. Well, all this did not fit with the stupidities of the outbreak of war, even crack. And then a version appears that allows us to hope that they were not idiots, but simply prepared to advance. And here my personal pride in the country can take a breath. And it’s not so important for me, is it true or not. I would even be glad if we had not been looking at anyone, we were the first to attack. Let historians argue hoarsely who was going to do what. If we simply believed Hitler, then our leadership of that time simply had something wrong with its head.
As for Poland, I do not approve. I generally do not approve of wars of conquest. The question is different - the debate is about who was preparing to attack first, who started the war against a sovereign state, which is not good. After all, everyone who opposes Suvorov, as I noticed, is most afraid of even the thought that we could be the first to attack. Why? Because it is not good? But why the attack on Finland does not cause such a reaction? Why is the attack on Poland justified? Are these double standards? And I would be glad if we really were the first to start.

[Setrac]

Quote: Spiegel

I have enough years to remember well how the failures of the first period of the war were explained in history textbooks in schools and universities. Were not ready, did not have time

This is because you do not understand what is meant by the words "did not have time".

[Spiegel]

This is too simple an excuse.

[Setrac]

Quote: Spiegel

This is too simple an excuse.

Read the thread to the end, all chewed in detail about the timing of mobilization and the timing of the deployment of troops. I do not need to repeat, read carefully.

[smile]

mirror
:)))) and don’t hope :))) no one justifies you. you and your rezun just trampled across the entire branch .... but you didn’t even notice .... I respect the stubbornness of others, but it would be better if you didn’t use yours for destructive purposes .....

[Spiegel]

Except for shouts and insults, I didn’t notice anything :-) Especially since there was some trampling there. It seems to me that you have conscientiously confused the ability to shout loud insults with the ability to lead a discussion and prove your case. In general, there is a kindergarten in terms of trampling :-) It also seemed to me that some of the debaters had nothing to do with the war - amateurs.
I saw the inability to reason logically. Logical substitutions and manipulations too. Well, these are ways to defend your faith. Only faith is not enough.
But there was also something interesting. The following versions follow from the discussion:
1. Tymoshenko and Zhukov, in fact, are traitors who DON'T WANT to organize a defense (from Vasya’s post). There was still a very respected by me General Karbyshev, a serious specialist in fortification. I would like to ask the author of the version - why did he decide that they did not want to?
2. We tried, but did not have time. To mobilize, set up equipment, bring troops into full combat readiness, find out the exact day of the German attack, etc. This is an old official version. Not removing any responsibility from the political and military leadership of the country. “If tomorrow is a war, if tomorrow is a campaign”, then what the hell were the famous aircraft designers Tupolev, Yakovlev, Polikarpov, Myasischev in the camps? Dvigatelists Stechkin (future academician), Glushko - future ally of the Queen, Korolev himself? The creators of BM-13 Langemak and Kleimenov were shot? The future Commissar of Defense Vannikov? Future Marshal Rokossovsky? You can list and list. I will not write about repressions in the army, everything has long been known.
3. They didn’t want to attack anyone, but they decided to meet hand-to-hand with the Germans at the border, which is why so many troops were concentrated there. That is, give them a decisive border battle and finish off on a foreign land :-).
4. It was pointless to create a deeply layered defense of the country, they say, the Kursk Bulge and the Maginot Line prove this. If it is not worth it, it remains either to lure the enemy inland (ha ha ha), or to surrender, or to attack on their own. There are simply no other options.

Everything is clear with the Rezun version, and it is clear that he needed fame. Exactly the same fame is needed for Rezun’s antagonists. There are, however, other possibilities for future writers eager to suck out a sensation from their finger, which can bring enough banknotes and popularity. Unused are the following unused options:
1. The betrayal of the leadership of the country, which beheaded the army, intelligence, national economy through repression before the war.
2. The stupidity of the leadership of the country, which has committed all of the above for the poor.
3. The mental ill health of the country's leadership, expressed in paranoid psychosis and the search for enemies in their own country with a known result.

I’m for the combined version: they didn’t have time, and were in a paranoid psychosis, and thought about their own attack, but they were afraid, and the folly happened :-) In fact, I believe in this option. And the version of Rezun warms my soul, because then we are smart and cunning and strong, but we were simply outwitted. I had to wake up urgently. Not so offensive :-))))))

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Spiegel

Except for screams and insults, I didn’t notice anything.

Well, it's you in vain ...
You are not the first to fall under the "immodest charm" of an icebreaker aquarist. And I was among the "charming" until I decided to figure it out myself - how it was. I read "Icebreaker" back in 1993. "Aquarium" - earlier. And fell for the bait ...
Compare the style, the construction of phrases, the rationale behind his first "opuses" with the latest compositions in the spirit of surreal reality, and you will understand that every line, every phrase makes you believe (how not to believe - he is a truth-lover who suffered innocently, and in Russia they always felt sorry for the offended ), which testifies to the help of the "serious" guys in terms of the psychology of influencing the PRIVATE reader.
And the last chapter - as it would be if we were the first to attack - "the last nail" in the coffin lid with "those who got on the hook." There is also the last "spit" about a grimy tanker in "liberated Auschwitz" with a phrase like that concentration camps are like ours. And here we remember SolzhInitsin, "the innocent victim", and the terrible "fairy tales" of Shalamov.

[Spiegel]

Stalkerwalker, you know, I don't like this kind of literature. And I am fascinated, for example, by Lion Feuchtwanger, once Konstantin Fedin and others like him. "Icebreaker" fell into my hands a long time ago, and I have never tried to double-check the figures and facts given in it, to read the memoirs of our and German generals. And I will not try, I will leave it to the historians. I liked the version itself, whether it was correct or not. She somehow explained in a positive way the facts that have long been known to me. Now I just know that there is such a version, and I am waiting for the continuation, which version will eventually win in a few years. In general, it would be strange if our General Staff, at least in theory, did not consider the option of a preemptive strike. Operational and strategic plans, which have the character of a directive, are another matter. I think the truth is much uglier than Suvorov's version.
As for the terrible tales of Shalamov, it is much more terrible than "Sleigh" by Georgy Zhzhenov.

[Selevc]

I think that partly the fact of the presence of the main forces of the Red Army along the western borders of the country can be explained by a MUCH MISTAKE pre-war strategy - And it was planned that when the enemy attacked, the Red Army should defeat it in border battles and go on the offensive ... Probably Stalin until a certain point thought so will be and then it was too late to change anything !!!
Indeed, in my opinion Stalin himself said that the Red Army would be the most advancing army in the world !!!
And nobody still knows how to withstand Blitzkrieg tactics !!!

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Spiegel

And then a version appears that allows us to hope that they were not idiots, but simply prepared to advance

Min Herz ...
You pecked at that empty steel hook.
This nonsense is tied to this - first bait, then hooks.
Remember Mellenthin: "... the Russians created a wonderful tank ...", and then, in general phrases, that we never learned how to fight on it. With all the conclusions from here.
Well, by golly, like children ...

[abdrah]

As for Poland, I do not approve. I generally do not approve of wars of conquest.

Poland, like Finland, Estonia, Kurlyad Livonia and other principalities and states is part of the Russian Empire, temporarily lost territory.
Alien land, we will not take an inch.

[smile]

Spiegel
An excellent answer, plausibly explaining the love for the rezun ... if after the publication of his first Icebreaker with the Aquarium, a quarter of a century had not passed ... understand, there are so many monographs written, so many documents published that even questions about the unfortunate rezun should not arise ... .you forgive, but you spent these quarter of a century in hibernation? You are kindly requested to read the books recommended by the opponents of the rezunists on this thread. I walked through, no one recommended bullshit. I would also recommend reading Medinsky's "War" and the trilogy of myths about Russia ..... And pride in oneself will remain in You will stop believing rubbish. And from the miserable version that was distributed at school in Soviet times, get rid of ... by the way, in military universities and where history was a profile topic, the topic was adequately covered and without any legends and in Soviet times ...
No one is afraid of any thoughts - do not entertain yourself with a miserable illusion and do not quote our fugitive (you use his signature words and phrases) ... but those who do not like the cutter do not like one of his main thoughts - We are creatures. who have dreamed all their history of enslaving a poor, clean, honest Europe. and for us. insidious. it almost succeeded. the misfire was prevented by a wise but stupid grandfather Hitler who preempted us, saber-toothed and thereby saved Europe and the planet .... moreover, a stupid but successful Hitler didn’t have a chance against us pathological invaders, but his victim was not in vain — we lost the war civilized world .... you have this rubbish. What I stated does not cause disgust?
About Poland. Once again, we DO NOT attack Poland and didn’t divide Poland with anyone by September 17th. On September 14, the government interned in Romania. Commander-in-chief safely escaped ... without any wars we occupied the lands previously captured by this hyena of Europe .... you really want to. so we give them to Hitler?
I already wrote about the Finns ..
To summarize. So, you did not give a single statement that could be proved to any extent by anything and which could be refuted by documents. so that even it becomes clear to you, your rezun deceived and raped you like a cat ... one blah blah blah .... rezunovskaya vodichka .... immediately about a lot, but about nothing specifically .... congratulations, you are worthy student rezuna .....

[Spiegel]

Oh no, Smile! Me Rezun himself is absolutely violet. How violet those who unwind their books on the denial of Rezun's version. You are at war with Rezun, answering me. I just want to be convinced that our ancestors were worthy of their country, and not only almost asked ... if it was, as Stalin said. In Finnish, two of my grandfather’s brothers disappeared, near Leningrad in February 1942, my father’s elder brother, who went to the front as a volunteer, went missing. Old Russian questions: who is to blame? and what to do?

[slava_sherb]

but let’s attack Ukraine, that they were out of hand there, at the same time Georgia, Moldova, etc. and then the whole world, so that no one arises and everything will be exactly

[sleepy]

Quote: smile
"Rezun has no versions of his own. He conveyed Goebbels' version of the reasons for the war word for word.
And if you already refer, then refer to the original source ... "

Goebbels propaganda is the primary source on the Internet.
The document is published according to the publication: What the Soviet government hides from the people and what everyone should know. - B.M., b.d. -63s
I. WHO IS THE INITIATOR OF WAR.
II. WHY STALIN DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THIS WAR DOMESTIC.
III: "MARXISM, JEWISH AND THEIR LEADING ROLE IN THE USSR" - section deleted.
IV. THE ONE LEADER OF THE GERMAN PEOPLE - ADOLF HITLER.
V. NATIONAL-SOCIALISM - THE BASIS OF STATE SYSTEM OF GERMANY.

VI. Stalin pulled the peoples of the USSR into the war.
"... After, after several weeks of warning the Stalinist plan to invade the Red Army into German territory, Adolf Hitler ordered the German armed forces to cross the eastern borders, it was time for systematic release of the entire population of the USSR
from Jewish-communist slavery ... "

USSR in the mirror of Nazi propaganda.
http://psyfactor.org/lib/gogun13.htm

Suvorov (Rezun) simply borrowed the basic ideas from Goebbels
and edited according to his goals.

[smile]

sleepy
Thank. Very interesting.

[Setrac]

Quote: Spiegel

Then why, if he is not a UO, did he concentrate his troops, equipment and warehouses near the border? Will someone give a convincing explanation for this fact, or not?

Of course it will, even the idiots understand this, the Third Reich is concentrating its troops near the border of the USSR (well, you understand with the most peaceful intentions), the Soviet Union is concentrating troops on its part, since it is clear to Stalin that the Germans are not coming for popcorn to us. The Germans are concentrating their troops faster, since Germany is LITTLE-LITTLE smaller than the USSR.
Physically, Stalin could not preempt Hitler in the attack, because whenever the concentration of troops began in the USSR, Germany would prepare faster because of the shorter distances.
I want to remind you with what joy our constant friends in the person of SSHA and Britain will attack the treacherous Stalin, since you yourself are so limited that you do not understand this.

[Spiegel]

Even the idiots in military affairs understand that if you are preparing for the defense of your territory, you will create a deeply echeloned defense and disperse your reserves. But you do not accumulate all the herds in one place. And do not disarm your own fortified areas, which surprised me even in my school years and without any Rezun. Look at the numbers of what and how much we lost in the first days of the war in boilers and environments near the border. This explains the rapid advance of the enemy - on his way, despite the heroic resistance, our troops were few. Really, only near Moscow they gathered their strength and thoughts.

[family tree]

Quote: Spiegel

Even the idiots in military affairs understand that if you are preparing for the defense of your territory, you will create a deeply echeloned defense and disperse your reserves.

Strategist, however. Kursk arc. RKKA-43 is much more of the Red Army-41. 8 echelons of defense, nevertheless, on the southern front, it was squeezed out and the 5th Guards Air Force from the wheels rushes into battle near Prokhorovka. Wehrmacht, that car was still.

And you don’t disarm your own fortified areas, which surprised me even in my school years

. 300 km from the border.
Option A. You keep troops and weapons in the UR, weakening the units located closer to the border.
Option B. You remove armaments and troops and reinforce border units, especially the Molotov Line, you also need to complete it. (There are no cheats for endless ammunition, weapons and personnel.)
Well and so, a little. The depth of defense on the Kursk Bulge reached 300 km.
On June 14, 1940, the 1st and 7th infantry armies of Army Group C, Colonel-General Wilhelm von Leeb, broke through the Maginot Line in a few hours, without tank support, between the rest. Do you think the USSR knew about this?

[Shadowcat]

Quote: perepilka

Option A. You keep troops and weapons in the UR, weakening the units located closer to the border. Option B. You remove weapons and troops and reinforce border units, especially the Molotov Line, you also need to complete.

I will add more about the "Stalin Line"
http://topwar.ru/27941-pochemu-gitler-ne-gotovilsya-k-voyne.html#comment-id-1170
247

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: perepilka

Well and so, a little. The depth of defense on the Kursk Bulge reached 300 km.

Sorry for Spiegel ...
The concepts of "strategic initiative", "direction of the main blow" for him (I hope so far) is an empty phrase.
I read fairy tales like "... put a soldier in a trench with a rifle in advance - he will shoot all enemies ..".

[Spiegel]

The defense of the country is not at all the same as the defense in the course of one operation, albeit strategic, as on the Kursk Bulge. Defense in this case is not only sitting in trenches and fortified areas. By the way, the Germans simply bypassed the Maginot Line, striking at France through Belgium. I think that our commanders knew perfectly well how the Wehrmacht acted, cutting through the defenses with tank wedges, making deep detours and envelopes.

[family tree]

Quote: Spiegel

The defense of the country is not at all the same as the defense in the course of one operation, albeit strategic, as on the Kursk Bulge. Defense in this case is not only sitting in trenches and fortified areas. By the way, the Germans bypassed the Maginot Line, striking a blow at France through Belgium

Ma-la-dets! It is enough to divide all the actions of the Wehrmacht into "Barbarossa", "Typhoon", "Citadel" and woo a la! The Red Army did not defend the USSR at all, and so it defended itself, in the course of individual operations

“As I have already indicated, my personal participation in the French campaign was limited to the battles in Lorraine, where I served as chief of staff of the 197th infantry division. She was part of the 1st German Army, whose troops attacked the famous Maginot Line near Puttlange south of Saarbrücken on June 14. I had a good opportunity to directly observe these battles, although only artillery and a combat engineer battalion took part in our breakthrough from our division. The belief in the inaccessibility of the Maginot line was widespread, and as far as I know, there are still people who believe that its fortifications could withstand any attack. It is interesting to note that the defenses of the Maginot Line were broken in a few hours as a result of the usual attack of infantry without any tank support.

“German tank forces in World War II” Friedrich von Mellentin

[Setrac]

Quote: Spiegel

But you do not accumulate all the herds in one place.

Where did you get this from? Do you think that all the reserves of the USSR were concentrated in the Bialystok ledge? And what does herd mean? Bullet shells? Or planes, mixed with tanks, zagurt at the border? I sit and think, are you so "mentally limited" or mindlessly repeating someone's idiotic mistake?

[Selevc]

Physically, Stalin could not preempt Hitler in the attack, because whenever the concentration of troops began in the USSR, Germany would prepare faster because of the shorter distances.

So the whole point is that by June 22, Soviet troops were already concentrated at the Western borders - this is proved by the UNFATTERNED FACT - namely, that by the winter of 1941 there were almost no tanks and aircraft left in the Red Army, plus they say figures - the number of the Red Army Unions that were surrounded, and of course, a huge number of prisoners and dead as a result of the emergence of huge boilers !!!

It's not about praising or scolding Rezun, but about the fact that people want to know the TRUTH that was specific (by day) between June 22nd and December 6th of the 41st year !!! And where by the beginning of the 42nd year all the pre-war power of the Red Army had disappeared !!!

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Spiegel

You look, and would cost less blood

Key phrase - everything explains ...
And, having done "a little blood", you can give back the Kuril Islands, Koenigsberg (excuse me, Smile), Karelia, the North Caucasus. Proceed?
I read the pearls of the "rezunoids", and I am surprised at the narrow-mindedness of these "analysts".
You, dear, seeking "truth" liberals, project your "unclouded" historical view to the present day. And you will have Russia, dismembered into parts, with a population of 15-50 million people, serving oil and gas fields, etc. etc.
Shame on you?
Or is the plan "Ost" an empty phrase for you?

[Spiegel]

Your logic ... Separate the flies from the cutlets. The whole dispute is about who was going to attack first, and not about the justice of the outcome of the war. I am not arguing that Stalin really intended to attack first. I'm sorry he didn't, as Clausewitz says. And then the plan "Ost" would be a simple piece of paper. I am sure that Hitler had no plan for a defensive operation in store for such a case.

[Shadowcat]

Sir, why attack? Papers? It was only on paper that there were 100500 tanks, in fact, 100 light tanks T-26 and Bt-5, of which on the move to check 20. Three 34ki are in the far hangar are not mastered because they can break, and checking for this will unscrew everything.
At the same time, 34ka itself is not only not mastered, but also suffers from childhood diseases of a young tank that are not detected due to the above.
What is an army of "100500 billion"? But excuse me, it was proven back in the First World War that in the presence of a machine gun, the number of attackers somehow does not matter.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Spiegel

Your logic ... Separate flies from cutlets

There is logic.
And you think ...
A preemptive strike is delivered at the moment when they SUDDENLY REALIZE that everything, the train leaves, or I am today, or I am tomorrow. There is no time to create any DETAILED strategic plans drawn up in advance, everything is thought at the tactical level. Do you think "Barbarossa" was scribbled in one night, under the pale light of a "bat," so that the NKVD wouldn't recognize? And the plan "Ost" was developed by Rosenberg in the Parisian variety shows, in the intervals between the glass and the girl, just in case ...
Even the well-known order "On the Behavior of a German Soldier on the Territory of the USSR" does not fit into the theory of prevention.
Pancake! How much can you chew the obvious?

[T80UM1]

I will explain to you why to concentrate weapons stocks near the border. The success of hostilities directly depends on how quickly the troops are supplied with power by uniforms and ammunition. To drive the supply 100-200 km from the border to the troops with the complete domination of enemy aircraft - doom the defenders to death. Your smart Germans did the same, their main depots were 30 km from the state border.

[washi]

We did not attack Poland. We just occupied Our territory along the Curzon line
About the Finns: even the Finns, officially, cannot prove that they were not the first to fire at our

[slava_sherb]

how much he didn’t read, had never seen a hysterical screech, but nobody really could refute it

[maxvet]

Well, if you need direct refutations, read Isaev, he simply and clearly showed what Rezun represents (his surname is fundamentally with a small letter)

[Leksander]

Quote: maxvet

but nobody could really refute it

Vasily Chobitok tore your rezun into footcloths: http: //armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/rizun/

[slava_sherb]

He didn’t tear anyone, he climbed into subtleties, and the essence of this has not changed

[Leksander]

Quote: slava_sherb

he got into the subtleties, but the essence of this has not changed

Chobitok clearly showed that Rezun: 1) juggles facts! 2) invents "facts"! 3) trying to talk about things about which he has no idea!
FALSE your rezun as a gray gelding!

[slava_sherb]

but he really didn’t say anything, everything around the fact that Rezun betrayed his homeland and everything

[omsbon]

Quote: slava_sherb

but nobody could really refute it

Do you personally need this refutation? How many of your brother did not come across the Labourist, to listen to the facts, arguments, none of you want. So is it worth breaking spears?

[slava_sherb]

If you deal with history, then you really need to look at it from all sides, and not get into the installation, only they are right and no one else, and if someone puts forward another version, I don’t give a damn about it

[smile]

slava_sher
This liar has been denied by dozens of authors. The most successful and funniest thing is the Rodent "How Viktor Suvorov Composed History". Read it - laugh and start to be ashamed. that as a loshara you were led to the insolent lies of a person. who even managed to distort and deliberately distort all the quotes in the books ... I repeat - EVERYTHING!
The book is online. I recommend to all.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: smile

Dozens of authors have denied this liar

UPDATE.
"Icebreaker-2", author - Surovov.

[smile]

stalkerwalker
Yes, it does not duplicate, but supplements, reveals the moments missed in that book that I recommended.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: smile

Yes, it does not duplicate, but complements

Hello Smile!
Well this is after yours.
Although this is not enough.
I already somehow mentioned in my first correspondence that I had studied the Germans (Manstein, Guderian, Halder, Goth, Mellentin), ours (from the icebreaker scoundrel, to Beshanov, Isaev, the same Surov), including the memoirs of Dragunsky, Popel , Batova and others.
Throwing up from the bastards who wrote "Operation Thunderstorm", laughed at the "fairy tales of Uncle Zhora."
But this is not enough.
I dug up books on the Finnish war ...
To give a more or less objective assessment, one must "live in the spirit" of that time, and not project today's peace and quiet onto those 30s and 40s.

[smile]

stalkerwalker
Hi myself! :)))) Your golden words. And I also read all sorts of rubbish - both Germans and runicards and corned beef ... pah, dirty trick is like a joke-mouse cried, pricked, but continued to eat a cactus! :))))) the enemy must be known in person. :)))

[Skiff-2]

Quote: slava_sherb

slava_sherb RU Today, 11:47 ↑

how much he didn’t read, had never seen a hysterical screech, but nobody really could refute it

Read "Antisuvorov" - it will feel better, there Rezunov pearls are laid out on the shelves and refuted with documents and pictures.

[slava_sherb]

again on the little things
Andrew-001
Rezun is certainly a traitor, there is no doubt about it. As an officer of the GRU, he ran to our enemy.
But for some reason, our native historians cannot yet write a more believable story. I am silent about the true story. They set a GDP task to them even in their first term, and I have been waiting for so many years when they give birth to PRESENT HISTORY. And they all cry and nod at the cutter - they say he does not give us the truth to speak.

[smile]

slava_sherb
Not a single historian of the planet Earth nods at Rezun. He is not able to give anything to anyone, since all historians, including Western ones, know that he is a corn bullshit. No need to dream and retell his words - these are just his pathetic attempts to attach importance to himself. :)))

[Andrew-001]

Quote: OTTO

Rezun explained everything ... Only now all his explanations are based on a juggling of facts and a hysterical screech in the presentation of the material.

Rezun is certainly a traitor, there is no doubt about it. As an officer of the GRU, he ran to our enemy.
But for some reason, our native historians cannot yet write a more believable story. I am silent about the true story. They set a GDP task to them even in their first term, and I have been waiting for so many years when they give birth to PRESENT HISTORY. And they all cry and nod at the cutter - they say he does not give us the truth to speak.

[abdrah]

I remember how in the 90s literary "works" and "historical research" of all Suvorovs, Klimovs, Solzhenitsyn, etc., began to appear on the free sale. Those lucky ones who got acquainted with the essence of their works walked around with the air of knowing the essence of being, I confess I was We read in 80 samizdats and 90 small-scale editions, re-read and changed, reprinted and rewrote, and then it seemed to burst through the gateway - all the dissidents and defectors, enemies and haters of the Soviets in any of the most seedy bookshop, at a very affordable price. to become a good writer you have to betray your Motherland?

[Selevc]

No, mine is screaming from the other side !!! It is full of accusers and admirers of Rezun himself, but very rarely anyone tries to seriously argue with his position regarding the 41st year ...

[family tree]

Quote: alex20081308

And what did Germany need at that moment in war?

I need it. Just look at the Trade Agreement of August 19, 1939.
Raw materials and agricultural products in exchange for industrial equipment and technologies. During the war, as in Europe, a quick exit on the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line gave Germany both the industry of the USSR and agriculture. The time is optimal, the brazen people are driven to the islands, the new industrial enterprises have not yet entered the USSR, the USSR army has some kind of mess associated with the increase in the number and the attendant lack of personnel. Take it, I don’t want to. Only, that did not grow together The army of the USSR, for some reason, stubbornly did not want to be defeated, and 2 thousand and a half industrial enterprises in six months, managed to "grease the skis" and ended up behind the Urals. Hitler ate the first rug

[Anastasios]

Quote: perepilka

Hitler ate the first

tie

[family tree]

Quote: Anastas

tie

Nah. This frame is larger than Sahaki, has not been exchanged for ties, only rugs.
http://armor.kiev.ua/humor/txt/tiger_1.php

[Bigriver]

Quote: alex20081308

... why by the end of June the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border.
Not a single author, besides Rezun, clearly explained why Stalin went to the liquidation of Poland, creating a common border with Germany ...

It was not a fist, but only its contours, shell. Divisions with 70-80% of the personnel. The rear areas are not deployed, the theater of war is not prepared, and the materiel is understaffed.
About Poland ...
Poland, as a state ended on September 15, when his government fled to Romania. The territory of Poland remained, the eastern part of which with the Belarusians and Ukrainians would inevitably be occupied by the Germans.
Thus, if there had been no Polish campaign of the Red Army, the common border with Germany would still have been. But, much east.

[slava_sherb]

no damn yourself contours, but what about the second echelon and third

[Zopuhhh]

Expanded ???? Stalin’s line was in the process of dismantling, a new defensive line had not yet begun to build ... All these preparations were aimed at cooling the corporal’s ardor, but something inexorably drove him to the East

[Bigriver]

Quote: Zopuhhh

Expanded ???? ...

That's it!
Moreover, the third echelon at the time of the invasion was absent. It began to form in the course of hostilities.
And the second echelon, in accordance with the pre-war doctrine, was to start the database only two weeks after the start of aggression. It was assumed that he would unfold under the cover of the first echelon.

[slava_sherb]

then tell me why they broke the line of Stalin

[Lopatov]

Who broke it? Still worth it. You will be tortured to break. Belarusians have opened a whole memorial complex "Stalin's Line".

[Setrac]

Quote: slava_sherb

then tell me why they broke the line of Stalin

The Stalin Line - bullshit is complete, as are the Maginot Line and the Mannerheim Line. All these lines have one drawback - they are static, and cannot retreat when a part of themselves breaks through. the maginot line did not save France, the Mannerheim line did not save Finland, it is clear that the Stalin line will not save the USSR. Pay attention to what Leningrad survived!

[Selevc]

It’s for sure - the 2nd World War showed how ineffective the static lines of defense were - they were breaking through, they were avoided ... The 2nd World War is a mobile war - a war of motors and no fortresses, pillboxes or bunkers could stop the enemy for a long time ... Even such lines how the West Wall covered by the Rhine and the East Wall covered by the Dnieper could not stop the attacking troops for a long time ...

[slava_sherb]

in fact, thanks to part of the Stalin line near Kiev, they were able to keep, not surrender Kiev immediately

[Selevc]

But then they handed over later !!! This is probably one of the mediocre defensive operations of the Red Army for the entire war !!! The Germans were already in the Poltava region, and ours (Stalin) held on to Kiev - and as a result, about 700 thousand killed, wounded and captured and a huge hole in the South-Western Front !!!

The Stalin line - this is a post-war myth - in reality there was only a less or less powerful Kiev UR and north and south of Kiev German tank wedges entered the Soviet defense like a knife in butter !!

[Selevc]

Quote: Zopuhhh

Stalin's line was in the process of dismantling

I am moved by this cute nonsense, which for some reason from time to time does not stop repeating !!! And what exactly does "in the process of dismantling" mean? Did they blow up all the fortifications and then it was impossible to quickly restore? In order to bring guns, machine guns and ammunition into bunkers, it takes years? Around Moscow and around Leningrad, URs were created in a matter of weeks !!!

And what kind of mythical line is this that covers the entire Western border of the USSR? And by the way, she’s rather big, by the way - this is an extensive theater of operations where a competent opponent quickly finds weak points and easily breaks through the defense - and so it happened !!! Even the French could not effectively defend their Western borders and what can we say about the USSR !!!

[wulf66]

Poor thing ... ek brainwashed you.

[Zopuhhh]

Yes, I needed it, if only for economic reasons ... He didn’t want to fight the English (although it’s not entirely clear why?), Or suppose he couldn’t ...

[smile]

alex20081308SU
1. The cutter is not an author, but a professional liar. And a liar. having a very specific task. A liar who did not say a word of truth. which could distort and distort even all quotes without exception.
2. Yuredni Rezun was exposed by dozens of historians. In my opinion, he was most thoroughly exposed in the book Rodent. "How Viktor Suvorov Composed History". In this book, almost all the writings of our scoundrel are analyzed, a lot of references. including for that. so that the reader is convinced. how rezun lies. distorting quotes and their sources. Special attention is paid to the military-technical nonsense of a liar. Written in his style, his style ... a lot of humor. Get to know at your leisure - the book will not let you die a fool ... :))))
It is the impudent lies of Rezun and his unreasonable lasts, like you, that are the idiotic set of meaningless phrases, cliches that are unreasonable, except for burning hatred for their homeland.
Fortunately. near-by people like you are getting smaller ...

[Setrac]

Quote: alex20081308

he has not yet clearly explained why, by the end of June, the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge.

This is Rezun’s lie, the units located in the Bialystok ledge do not pull on the main fist, and in general on a pull fist, a very limited group.

Quote: alex20081308

why did Stalin go to the elimination of Poland

If the USSR had not occupied the former Polish territories, then the Reich would have occupied them and the border would have been even closer to Moscow.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: alex20081308

The main shock fist of the Red Army is located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border

For the orphans and the wretched I explain.
If Stalin REALLY wanted to ATTACK Germany FIRST, then the Red Army had excellent chances of success in May 1940. Break down 20 infantry covering divisions in Poland and East Prussia - "like two fingers on the asphalt." And while the Wehrmacht would have transferred parts from France in parts, the Red Banner of Victory would have hung over the Reichstag.
They did not do this, which can be read about in German memoirs.

[nnz226]

well, they did the same with Poland in 1939 as she did with Russia in 1920. They just restored justice and made a border along the Curzon line. About "Suvorov" nonsense, I don't even want to comment ... It is enough to read A. Isaev "Antisuvorov" there the traitor's nonsense "exposed and exposed" !!!

[Spiegel]

Maybe we and Crimea will restore justice, eh? Your logic is strange. And in Finland, what kind of justice did we restore?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Spiegel

Maybe we with Crimea will restore justice

Maybe it will have to if Ukraine is "falling apart" under the influence of external and internal destabilizing factors.

Quote: Spiegel

. And in Finland we restored such justice

Before asking such questions, try to study the WHOLE HISTORY of relations between Finland and Soviet Russia in the period 1917-1939. Believe me, you will find a lot of new and interesting things. Let me cite as an example, at least, the slogan of the "top" of the Finnish government (parliament there was more for beauty, as, indeed, in Poland) in relation to Russia: "tougher, even tougher!" As a result, being under constant military-political pressure from Finland, the newly-born Baltic states and Pilsudskaya Poland, Russia was forced to sign treaties with these countries on the MOST ADVANCED CONDITIONS. Only Germany had the worst conditions when the Versailles Treaty was signed.
Right now I'm at work, there are no books at hand. But I again recommend SuROv's Icebreaker-2.
Good luck.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: alex20081308

And what did Germany need a war at that moment ??? Not a single author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained why by the end of June the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border.

I am touched by you ... And what is shock and fist in the 10th Army?

[dmitrich]

in the 41st Patriotic War the wise guy began.

[kukara4an]

Comrade Rezun interprets the events of that time too one-sidedly, it seems that he writes by order of those to whom he escaped.

[Misantrop]

Quote: kukara4an

пишет by request those to whom he fled.

IMHO there is not an order, but an ORDER ... You’ll refuse to hell, they will crush ...

[Selevc]

Quote: alex20081308

.No one author, besides Rezun, did not clearly explain why Stalin went to the liquidation of Poland, creating a common border with Germany.

And why did you decide that Stalin went for it or still had to go? You would think that Hitler after the capture of Austria and the Czech Republic would have stopped fearing Stalin? :))) Why do you think that Hitler would not have attacked Poland if it were not for the notorious non-aggression pact? When attacking Poland, Germany first of all decided its old question about Danzig - and this had nothing to do with the USSR !!! And do you really think that Stalin was such a fool not to understand that Austria and the Czech Republic will be followed by Poland - the Poles did not want to conclude any military alliances with the USSR and what was left for Stalin to do - watch how Germany will absorb Poland alone and then all the small countries of Eastern Europe ? Of course, it was better to come to an agreement with Hitler than to silently watch as he "gobble up" it all himself !!!

[vjhbc]

there is a big difference in theory and practice, and so the USSR theoretically intended to strike Germany first and Germany was practically preparing for the first strike
therefore, if the USA is now attacking Russia, they can calmly, like Hitler, say that we simply preempted Russia because it has developed a plan of attack on the USA and that there is more than one such plan, I’m sure therefore there is no need for demagogy

Quote: alex20081308

But what did Germany need at that moment in war ??? Not a single author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained why, by the end of June, the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border. Not one author, again except Rezun, he didn’t clearly explain why Stalin went to the elimination of Poland by creating a common border with Germany. And while there is no other clear explanation of these issues, he has to adhere to his opinion. Well, and then I agree again with Rezun, what is so bad about attacking fascist germany ???? And as for the Second World War, so it began not at 41 but at 39. so the author again stuffs us with a set of meaningless propaganda phrases without the slightest fact. Article is nonsense. The author is a big minus

[Ruslan67]

Maybe not very topic BUT! Dr. Goebbels’s legacy would not hurt to study thoroughly. Profi is still the one who uses the West now very similar to his methods and the worst thing that we are now losing to that we won in the 45th

[Vitaly Anisimov]

The more monstrous the lie, the more they will believe in it !! Acts .. as it is not regrettable and insulting

[Ruslan67]

Quote: MIKHAN

Acts .. as it is not regrettable and insulting

Unfortunately in the third Reich there were no idiots And here in the late 80s we’ll draw a horseradish erased

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Quote: Ruslan67

Quote: MIKHAN

Acts .. as it is not regrettable and insulting

Unfortunately in the third Reich there were no idiots And here in the late 80s we’ll draw a horseradish erased

If they climbed into Russia, they were (Bismarck warned them ..) - Never fight with the Russians. For each of your military tricks they will respond with unpredictable stupidity.

[knn54]

None of the operational documents, including the "Barbarossa" plan of the Germans, mentions the threat from the USSR. And Hitler, this is not a preventive action, but a PROGRAM CONCEPT, even from the moment of writing "Mein Kampf"
On May 2, 1941, at a meeting of the Vostok economic headquarters, Hitler said: "... the war can be continued only if all the German Armed Forces in the third year of the war are supplied with food at the expense of Russia."
In the secret memorandum "Oil supply to Germany during the war", April 1939, it was said: "The use of war ... is the only opportunity to seize also the largest oil-bearing region of Europe, the Caucasus ...".
PS The militarization of Germany led to a disproportion in the economy and public debt. There were two ways - to shoulder the shoulders of compatriots or to cover the costs at the expense of the occupied EASTERN territories. "The second way is UNDoubtlessly preferable!"
PPS "War Must Feed War", Generalissimo Wallenstein.

[Andrey77]

Mix warm with soft. Plan "Barbarossa" is a strategic plan of attack on the USSR. This time. The Barbarossa plan is never an operational document. These are two. Three and four are too lazy to write.

[pinecone]

There is still no in-depth historical study of the topic relating to negotiations between Molotov and the German leadership during his visit to Berlin in November 1940, which in essence was a turning point in relations between the USSR and Germany.

[mark7]

A lot has not yet been declassified, even more has been destroyed for the sake of politics

[Andrew-001]

Quote: pinecone

There is still no in-depth historical research on the topic.

Quote: mark7

A lot has not been declassified

This is precisely what makes it possible for Rezun to turn around. In the USSR and modern Russia there is simply no official righteous answer. Rezun writes books based on certain facts and giving these facts their own (or not only their own) explanations - and our historians are silent (I do not take into account the Antisuvorovs and the Surovovs of all kinds - they have a lot of emotional foam). Why can't our historians start off from the simple fact "Germany attacked the USSR" and from this write a complete history of what is happening - how we expected it, how we prepared and why the war did not go as planned by our General Staff.

[Setrac]

Quote: Andrew-001

Rezun writes books starting from certain facts and giving these facts his (or not only his) explanations

Holy naivete, here Rezun still in the academy dreamed of exposing the USSR and Stalin separately Rezun didn’t start from any facts, but he repelled from the propaganda order from the State Department, and gave explanations such as to discredit the USSR in general and war heroes in particular.
He even took a pseudonym - "Suvorov" - to look more convincing, because he knew that he would lie.

[smile]

Andrew-001
Well, how do you imagine this? By presidential decree, Ran gives out the work of dozens of historians, exposing ... whom? unmasked by all. who is not lazy historians of the planet? ALL historians despise him. And all those who are interested in the topic have long been convinced of this ... This louse is not worthy of giving official answers to it ...

[Valery-SPB]

The rapid growth of the army, from 1,9 million in 1939 to almost 5 million by June 1, 1941

The strength of the Russian armed forces in peacetime by 1914 reached 1.300.000. With the announcement of general mobilization, another 3.500.000 people were called up, who represented the entire stock of military-trained people up to the age of 38 inclusive.

The quote is taken from the work of Lieutenant General of the General Staff of the Russian Empire N.N. Golovin. "The beginning of the war and operations in East Prussia".

Conclusion: the number of Russian and Soviet troops, some at the start of the war in 1914, and others at the beginning of the 1941 war, is almost the same. But, in 1914, this number was provided open general mobilization during the declaration of war, and in 1941 was achieved before the war and without a declaration of general mobilization.

Questions, questions, questions?

[family tree]

Quote: Valery-SPB

the numbers of Russian and Soviet troops, some at the start of the war in 1914, and others at the beginning of the 1941 war, are almost the same. But, in 1914, this number was provided by open general mobilization during the declaration of war, and in 1941 it was achieved before the war and without a declaration of general mobilization.

LAW of September 1, 1939 ON UNIVERSAL MILITARY DUTIES shifted the draft age by three years. If before him they took those who turned 21, now they have gone an additional 20, 19 and 18-year-olds. Plus, at 18, it's harder to be a family man with a couple of three kids than at 21. Hence the increase.
In the 14th, 3,5 lyama was accumulated at the expense of only one reserve, during the formation of divisions of the second stage.

[Valery-SPB]

Well, you directly copied my post on one previously discussed article. Thank you for reminding me.
It's about something else.
The appeal of 39 years gave 3 ages and 18 year olds with secondary education. Given the fact that the call and demobilization in the fall, at the beginning of the war, these guys were a little bit before demobilization. You cannot call them inexperienced. The 1940 autumn draft of 19-year-olds and partly, again 18-year-olds, was given by a soldier with at least 6 months of preparation for the outbreak of war. In May, 41 calls from the stock of 800 thousand. The untrained army of Comrade Stalin cannot be called. Comrade Stalin knew about the war and was preparing for it. Therefore, I always reject positions, such as Stalin was afraid, did not believe Sorge, the attack was unexpected, the army was not ready, etc.
Comparison of the two armies on the fact of the presence of numbers indicates readiness for war. No matter how, open or hidden. Well, it happened with Comrade Stalin, who was called so in the 39th and with combat readiness by the year 41.
In the usual order, even during the Soviet period, one of the articles of the law always indicates the order in which the law enters into force. As a rule, the phased introduction of articles of the law to constant use is applied. After all, it is clear that the simultaneous appeal of three and a half ages will cause additional economic burden (uniforms, food, withdrawal of working hands). General Golovin examines in detail the mobilization procedure, starting from the private one, as the movement of a huge mass of people, first at the lower regional level, and then at the all-Russian level. The readiness of troops for mobilization and concentration determined from 40 to 80 days. Consequently, to relocate the same number of people to 39, as with the general mobilization in the 14th, it demanded a similar load on transport to the detriment of the peaceful economy and comrade. Stalin went for it.
Questions, questions, questions?

[family tree]

Quote: Valery-SPB

Comrade Stalin knew about the war and was preparing for it.

He knew that he would have to fight, and he was getting ready, once he had to.

The untrained army of Comrade Stalin cannot be called.

The infantry, and even then the average command staff was not enough. What about tankers? The materiel is new, it’s just gone, information on the miserable technique has not been worked out yet. Providing auxiliary equipment miserable, tanks first. Flyers have the same thing. About the connection, especially the radio, did not kick, probably only the most lazy. Trained, Comrade Army Stalin, too, can not be called. In the 14th troubles was less, at the expense of preparedness.

[Bigriver]

Quote: Valery-SPB

The rapid growth of the army, from 1,9 million in 1939 to almost 5 million by June 1, 1941

Conclusion: the number of Russian and Soviet troops, some at the start of the war in 1914, and others at the beginning of the 1941 war, is almost the same. But, in 1914, this number was provided open general mobilization during the declaration of war, and in 1941 was achieved before the war and without a declaration of general mobilization.

Questions, questions, questions?

Numbers are a relative thing. What will the number of the Red Army that impressed you look like more than 5 million if I name the Wehrmacht at 7,5 million?
And this is without the forces of the German allies who participated in the invasion.

[Valery-SPB]

So in the 14th year, if you count, at the time of the outbreak of hostilities, due to faster mobilization and strategic deployment, Germany had a numerical superiority (15 days, in Russia up to 80).

Take into account the importance of primary and secondary forces. Let us assume that in the year 14 Germany concentrated the bulk of the field army against France by setting up partially divisions from Landsver and Landshturm to defend against Russian troops. And in 1941, at the beginning of hostilities, secondary divisions, i.e. made up of the recently drafted, they were the second echelon (reserve) and were not entered into the battle, but were taken into account in the total number. At the same time, the accumulation of forces was already done through hidden mobilization. Accordingly, as soon as we had a general mobilization, the number of our troops became higher.

[Bigriver]

Quote: Valery-SPB

So in the 14th year, if you count, at the time of the outbreak of hostilities, ..

Ches word, I do not understand where you are driving and what do you see a "fix"?

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Yes, there are many questions ... But the main thing is that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers broke the ridge of Fascism .. Berlin took and hoisted the banner of Victory over the Reichstag !!! And so it will be with all the wickedness that will encroach on Holy Russia!

[slava_sherb]

famously said especially when they themselves had a hand in its creation. And if Hitler won he probably said something like that

[smile]

slava_sherb
The Germans had a hand in the creation of our army an order of magnitude greater than we did for them ... and if we compare the contribution of the French and Anglo-Saxons, then our contribution is expressed in a vanishingly small amount.

[Andrew-001]

Quote: MIKHAN

But the most important thing is that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers broke the ridge of Fascism ..

I completely agree with you. (Although I read Rezun with pleasure )
The main thing is that the Soviet Army is the liberating army! And they defended themselves, and they saved the world from the brown plague.

[Standard Oil]

Who cares what Stalin was going to do there, Hitler was the first to attack, you can now guess as much as you like. All these arguments about the "preemptive strike" of Germany, it's like talking about the fact that grandmother could be a grandfather if she had an appropriate body. If the country is firmly on a course of war, then it will come up with a bunch of reasons and provocations for this, such as the "shelling" of American destroyers with Vietnamese boats, or the attack of the Poles on a German radio station, which nominally caused the war, but for the USSR, our "good doctor" Goebbels invented a myth about "first strike". And the parrots have now picked up and repeat.

[Vitaly Anisimov]

Quote: Ruslan67

Quote: discard

Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

It's time to connect the administrative resource I’m not enough for your whole pack

It's high time .. I noticed here they rolled like waves (in the muzzle ..) rolled back and so every day and time are very punctual ..

[vitek1233]

Germany attacked the USSR defeated. The eternal memory of our ancestors who did not allow to destroy our people

[Vitaly Anisimov]

The preemptive one was from Germany .. USSR began to rearm on modern weapons T-34, Katyusha, PPSh machine guns .. modern planes .. We did not have time a bit .. Well, our slovenliness played a role .. Now the same kind of thing happens .. Like we weren’t satisfied with the 41st again .. Only the result will be the same .. (hoisting the flag over the defeated adversary .. I hope our leadership thinks about this .. ?? Nobody will go with the flags for the attack on Putin and Medvedev now .. No time I hope this does not happen ..

[slava_sherb]

I agree with this more

[stoqn477]

There are many questions about the German attack, and I feel that the authorities do not want to delve into the archives. After the fall of communism, continued to support the theses that were created by Khrushchev and Zhukov's “Memories”. Even if my memory serves me, the law was recently passed, the punishment of those who deviate from the state (from communism) is an explanation of the war. Why? Isn't it strange. No one denies that you defeated Germany, but at least the price is too high for me.

[Andrey77]

There are many questions about the German attack, and I feel that the authorities do not want to delve into the archives.
--
The fact is that the secrets of Her Majesty the Queen of England are greater than ours. There the shelf life is 100 years. Therefore, Hitler’s correspondence with Churchill will be found somewhere in 2039.

[smile]

stoqn477
Well, yes, well, yes ... but here you and without "delving into the archives" (the masterpiece phrase, dug up in the archive?) Everything is clear ... Vitya Rezun told you the whole truth ... also without archives ... identified the cat's intestines and spionaryl from Goebbels ... yes you are a giant of adnak's thought ... :))))

[Andrew-001]

Quote: smile

.You Victor Rezun told the whole truth ... also without archives

Rezun describes the situation as it appears to him. And if so, then he can no longer be right in everything - therefore his books should not be perceived as an axiom. But to reject is also not a trace. Just one thing, that he is a traitor who fled to our enemies, is rightly adjusting to a negative attitude towards him.

[smile]

Andrew-001
Just the fact that he deliberately distorts ALL quotes in ALL of his books, or that he deliberately ascribes the statements of one person to another is testament to. that in his books there is only one lie and nothing but lies. I read all of his books published in our country and that is why I have such an opinion. I advised a little book above, please read. Interesting, and if you are a supporter of the fugitive, it’s also useful. In the end, I read this zass..tsa, do me a favor, as a response courtesy, read, huh?

[Proud.]

Quote: stoqn477

but the price is at least too high for me.

Losses of the Red Army - 12,0 (the largest number, data are taken when studying the work of several post-war commissions) mln. Wehrmacht losses - 9,05 (the smallest number, official data of the German side) million people. Ratio 1,3: 1. The losses of the civilian population of the USSR are simply enormous! There was a TOTAL, INTENTIONAL destruction of our citizens. 7 people were killed in the temporarily occupied territories (including 420 children). 379 people were killed in forced labor in Germany (including 216 non-returnees from the number of migrant workers who became emigrants). severe conditions of the occupation regime (hunger, infectious diseases, lack of medical care) - 431. The total loss of civilian population in the temporarily occupied territories amounted to 2 people. It is possible (not the fact that the figure is final), civilian casualties were even greater. ak who is to blame, that the price is too high?

[Vitaly Anisimov]

[quote = stoqn477] There are many questions about the German attack, and I feel that the authorities do not want to delve into the archives. After the fall of communism, continued to support the theses that were created by Khrushchev and Zhukov's “Memories”. Even if my memory serves me, the law was recently passed, the punishment of those who deviate from the state (from communism) is an explanation of the war. Why? Isn't that weird.No one denies that you defeated Germany, but at least the price is too high for me. [/ Quote]
We are not traders .. If it concerns MY Motherland .. Many were lost (Eternal memory to them) but they died for their Motherland !! not for money, not for world hegemony .. Our soldiers simply strangled this reptile .. not looking at the losses! Unconditional surrender no conditions otherwise DEATH !!! So you must always act in any war ..

[stoqn477]

Our soldiers simply strangled this reptile .. despite the losses!

I think a little confused. Your marshals defeated Germany, despite the loss of your soldiers. If you say that men do not care about their death and that their comrades died in vain senseless attacks will be strongly said. When you fight against an invading enemy in your land, no one is fighting for money. This is the duty of every citizen of the country and the army has taken an oath to do so.
And you are not traders. I do not know who speaks differently for the Russian people.

[washi]

There were traitors, there were heroes. There were COLONERS, but there were butchers. BUT HOMELAND they defended and were at the forefront
When you fight against an invading enemy in your land, no one fights for money. This is the duty of every citizen of the country and the army has taken an oath to do so.
But you are wrong. A trader is always a trader. HIM EVERYTHING IS EQUAL WHAT TO WHOM AND WHAT TO SELL. moral (free to rob, rape) - always. Patriot - will remain a patriot.
I am offended for the country where I took the oath - the USSR. But I took the oath only once, unlike some who took the oath of the CIS, and then national regions ..

[Setrac]

Quote: stoqn477

Your marshals defeated Germany, despite the loss of your soldiers.

The soldiers die in the war, this is inevitable, but we cannot say that the soldier who died defending his country died in vain. German soldiers died in vain.

[Takashi]

here, not long ago, a film about the creator of T-5 was shown on Channel 34.
The film was shot in Soviet times and I think it was censored.

There are shots in the film: the tanks are being driven in M. and somewhere at the crossing the tanks get up and the grandma asks the designer: "Sonny, will there be war with the Germans?" He answers: "It will."
It seems that it was 1940 (winter).

Interestingly, the whole country knows that the war "will be", they were preparing for the war (units and subunits were actively formed, there was a systematic transfer of troops, huge stocks of weapons were formed near the border and), by May 1941 the economy of the USSR was practically transferred to martial law:
- the motto is all women on tractors (where did the men go?)
- Paid training at universities has been introduced (this limits and frees people in other areas of production, including the army).
- workers are attached to the workplace and cannot just quit

The fascist Germany needed the war — she needed resources,
the USSR needed the war because the economy would not have been able to maintain the army of 4.5-5 million people. Well, look, what was the size of the Soviet army (peacetime) after the Second World War (some 50-80 years) and what a burden it lay on the people.

[Bigriver]

Quote: Takashi

The fascist Germany needed the war — she needed resources,
the war was needed for the USSR contain an army of 4.5-5 million people the economy would not be able for a long time ...

You confuse cause and effect.
Pay attention when the Red Army became becomes a personnel army and its growth began.

[Setrac]

You confuse cause and effect

Quote: Takashi

The fascist Germany needed the war — she needed resources,

This is the reason

Quote: Takashi

for the economy would not have been able to contain the army of 4.5-5 million people for a long time.

This is a consequence.
The German economy also could not contain a large army for a long time, so an attack was inevitable.

[Andrey77]

Author. Very weak. Vitya Rezun will be more convincing and argumentative. Not a single link to the archive. I believe Rezun. :)
-
by June 1941, the Red Army was not in its best "form"
-
Why did you get this? The structure was not optimal, but the shape was very even. Author, I hope you have a historical background? While I minus.

[washi]

Martirosyan, Mukhin, Bushkov is a writer of action movies, but as a historian is objective. There are also footnotes

[Andrey77]

Yes you? And who are the footnotes for?

[mark7]

Quote: Andrey77

sec. Very weak. Vitya Rezun will be more convincing and argumentative

in my opinion he is Vova, although all is one persecutor, and without him everyone knew that Stalin was aware of the impending threat, and therefore there was a massive mobilization

[Andrey77]

Well, if everyone knew who was to blame?

[Bigriver]

Quote: Andrey77

by June 1941, the Red Army was not in its best "form"
-
Why did you get this? The structure was not optimal, but the shape was very...

Based on what facts do you make a statement about the state of the form of the Red Army?
Perhaps the main characteristic of this FORM is the word HETEROGENEOUS.
There was a smaller part of the divisions (up to the first numbers and a little higher) was with very good combat efficiency. Most of them are with medium and low combat readiness.
In the conditions of that high-speed, maneuverable war this turned out to be devastating for us.
But .., not fatal.

[Andrew-001]

Andrey77, Your truth (although they will start beating me here for such words) that "Vitya Rezun will be more convincing and more argummented", but you must admit that Rezun sometimes attracts information almost by the ears - he is still an amateur historian and can only use open sources - he thinks out the rest on his own. And the process of "thinking out" is influenced by the local authorities who maintain it. This is especially evident in his recent books.

[Bigriver]

Quote: Andrew-001

... but you must admit that Rezun sometimes attracts information almost by the ears ...

The Lord is with you. Which Rezun historian? He is a writer, publicist. All of his method is purely writing. Creation of fascinating works.
Let's see the difference. The historian collects facts on the topic, digs sources, finds patterns, relationships, trends .., draws conclusions.
Rezun is dancing on the Goebbels idea, illustrating it freely with the facts he sets out. If there are facts contradicting his ideas - so much the worse for the facts.
And of course, Rezun fulfills the social order of the European community, smoothing out its moral trauma: "The West is an eternal aggressor in relation to the East."

[smile]

Andrew-001
Nobody will beat you :))) Victor is just funnier ... of course. why read historians whom he dislikes so much and who despise him — they write uninteresting things in a boring and scientific language ... and Vitia daaaa. the syllable is incomparable ... sorry. that everything is deliberately lying - well, you must agree. a quote can only be distorted intentionally ... books are designed for people who do not understand a damn thing in history. nor in the military equipment ... here, some people and hawala, alas ...

[AlexW]

It must be admitted that Rezun (or whoever stands behind him) operates with facts quite skillfully. Alas, our historians are more at squabbling, instead of a calm refutation with facts at the ready. It is somehow easier for them to go personal, alas. Rezun has a lot of "far-fetched", about the role of his English and overseas masters in unleashing the war, he prefers to keep silent. In his last books, the order is visible with the naked eye. What is his "iron" argument that denies the aggressive nature of NATO - "But this is ridiculous"

[chenia]

Quote: Takashi

the USSR needed the war because the economy would not have been able to maintain the army of 4.5-5 million people.

I fight because I fight (Porthos). It is necessary to wage war, because the army was deployed foolishly. Or not foolishly.
Yes, we then believed (1939) that we would have to fight both Germany and its Poland ally.
So there was a buildup of our power to the maximum.

And when the Poles and the French were gouged, there were no illusions about where the Germans would go in the future (despite all the Treaties).

The Anglo-skunks will have to open the archive, and the secret of the Opener who was the organizer of the world massacre will be confirmed. And they want to shove at least part of the guilt (or better all) to the USSR.
Moreover, while they open the archives, the thesis of the guilt of the USSR should finally be confirmed.

Well, Rezun, honestly fulfills a foreign living space.

[washi]

They kept the archives secret for another half a century, when they realized that RUS was still alive and could show.

[Andrey77]

The British have been classified for 100 years. And somehow normal. And what do you mean by the word RUSS? I hope you understand how the secrecy stamp is put in different states, Monsieur historian?

[Setrac]

Quote: Andrey77

And what do you mean by the word RUSS?

Russia is the self-name of all Slavic peoples.

[alex20081308]

since I started the discussion, I summarize the subtotal. Drooling alone, as always. There was one reference to Isaev. so read it carefully. In general, he does not dispute Rezun. And the fact that we were preparing to hit first, he confirms. They disagree in conclusions regarding the causes of the collapse of the first strategic echelon of the Red Army. But the question is not raised in this article.

[Andrey77]

Well, you compared Rezun the writer with the historian Isaev. Have you read many books by Isaev?

[smile]

alex20081308
But you, however, are a modest ... you have been spread all over the branch, and here you are summing up the results ... :)))))

[alex20081308]

Quote: Ruslan67

Quote: alex20081308

.And so far there is no other intelligible explanation of these issues, we have to adhere to his opinion

Do you remember when the first book of this female dog appeared? At that time, our domestic historiography did not give answers to many questions in principle After that, at least somehow they moved, although some would rather be silent

Like now she gave these answers. Not yet visible. Show official answers. No links to Isaev and others like him. These are private researchers. And the state is silent

[Andrey77]

Isaev - Ph.D. RF Defend your Ph.D. in history, for starters.

[alex20081308]

And here, Ph.D. ?????. He publishes conclusions from himself. And I respect him very much. But these are his conclusions. Now, if there was a publication under the auspices of the RF Ministry of Defense under the name = official history of the Second World War =, where the author or co-author Isaev would be indicated, this would already reflect the opinion of the state.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: alex20081308

These are private researchers.

And you are an honest "researcher".
"... And you will be cured ..."

[Aryan]

Well, they said a lie about Turkey
Yes, and the author needs a new spelling in the forehead, if he is not friends with the Russian language

[Valery-SPB]

Quote: BigRiver

Quote: Valery-SPB

So in the 14th year, if you count, at the time of the outbreak of hostilities, ..

Ches word, I do not understand where you are driving and what do you see a "fix"?

No hiccups. Mobilization resources at the time of the two wars are almost the same. Only a number of respected generals of the Russian army who wrote research on the war first indicate the number of troops to achieve general open mobilization and the same number of comrade. Stalin without mobilization.

I believe Comrade To Stalin. He was not a fool. He did not oversleep the war and was preparing for it, which does not mean any intentions to attack there.

[Aleksandr]

I get the impression the fewer the defeated "remain alive" the fewer claims
and this is the main mistake

[Des10]

When M.Veller was asked live on a radio broadcast about his attitude to the conclusions of the traitor Rezun, he hesitated a little and said that it was difficult for him to dispute the conclusions of the former GS officer.
To that - a traitor? definitely yes! But even now there is no official book on these years.
And in my Soviet childhood, my father answered my question: - why did the war begin in such a rout? He answered - the Nazis were ahead of us. This is the year 1970.
My parents survived the war, grandfathers fought. I believe them.
The article is understandable in the direction and attitude of the author, but - for such a complex issue - is weak.
Unfortunately.

[smile]

Des10
This is the lyrics. And similar argumentation - the corporate style of rezun - on emotions, a little flattery, an indistinct reference of unknown authorities, to "I know everything." and that's it ... more N AND CH E GO ... it's not for nothing that our runaway doesn't like historians ... :))))
Did your dad have access to the archives now open? Or is it his emotions and intuitive guesses and assumptions? Did your really respected grandfathers plan a preventive war with Hitler? were among the proxies of the Supreme Commander (which, incidentally, does not guarantee truthfulness)? Or, with a rifle in hand, defended our homeland from the Nazi invaders?
What does Weller think in history? the dissident dissident Solzhenitsyn’s like-minded person who writes talented books, but was offended when he began to carry his fabrications on TV?
And the article is really rather weak - it left a lot of loopholes for suvorolyubam.

[lexe]

1933-Hitler comes to power.What Stalin did not know who promotes Hitler?Knew and prepared:
-Having such experience of the revolutionary struggle and allowing Hitler to take power in Germany (with millions of people who approve of communism)? This is Stalin’s foreign policy failure. He threw millions of Germans at Hitler’s feet. But Germany was on the verge of defeat — chaos and chaos were total. that all this red chapel ... was clearly a symphony in the wrong ears. Even Trotsky, for all that he was a scoundrel, I would surely handle it.
-Repressions in foreign intelligence. They simply removed people who really could create color revolutions around the world. That’s how Stalin understood this logic.
-Repressions in the Red Army. It seems that the legend was such, they were looking for future Vlasovs. But Vlasov was not found Stalin beheaded the army. Yes figs with them with views but to exterminate specialists on the eve of the war ...
-Spain. What kind of experience we got there is not clear ... Yes, and who will analyze when we cleaned everyone. But then they showed that we can and should be beaten!
-Demolition of defensive fortifications on the border ... Why?
- He passed the Balkans. Romania, Hungary is also against us.
- Finland could not even be marked so that in 1941 she was in a hospital bed and did not enter the war against us.
-And another car and trolley ...
What a preventive strike! This is truly a myth.

[smile]

lexe
You distort and try to judge the actions of the USSR taking into account its post-war (or towards the end of the war) potential. Before the war, we are an outcast country. having a meager political weight, the country has only created industry and the army, a country whose influence on the situation in other countries. for example, in Germany it’s just microscopic ... unlike France and the Anglo-Saxons. surpassing us in everything, even in terms of population. (the population of F. scolonias is 107 million Britain over 550 million), and it was these countries that had the ability and the right, and were obliged to control Germany and be the guarantors of the Versailles agreements ... but instead they planned and prepared to bomb the oil fields of Baku and Grozny, and the invasion from the North-West ...
and we at that time in Germany could not have done anything ... I repeat ANYTHING ... there simply weren’t any opportunities ... what Balkans, how, what and what could we hinder there if we had a task to survive, and we frantically preparing to defend themselves, knowing full well that we were not catastrophically in time. Moreover, not only Germany could attack, but also other coalitions, including France and Britain ... Japan, Poland ...
For this reason, all your pathetics in this comment, together with the wagons and carts of the eaten egg, are not worth it ....

[lexe]

The results of the parliamentary elections in Germany on March 5, 1933
Communist Party of Germany 4,848,058mn 12.32%
Microscopic?But this is already 1933. I think in 1917. all supporters! there was much less communism in Russia and nothing was done ...
The population of Britain is 55 million. What is Britain so trusted in the fleet? -Population of the colonies is more of a hidden enemy of the metropolis. So a quantitative argument is past the target. Rather, it was a hidden reserve of the enemies of England. Yes, several native divisions could arm but no more - it was scary What if a rebellion? And the struggle for independence?
It’s strange for me to hear that we were a communist pariah country How would uh ... then we ourselves chose such a paradigm-they say we are so special and proud of it.
In order to attack the country-USSR it was necessary to have a people / peoples with bestial biology.
so the west of England, France, the United States without total technological superiority did not even think ... to frighten and make plans is the best element of protection - Yes ... in this they are masters.
Japan, yes, maybe it could. But China and the south were more profitable for Japan. It was just more human resources, possible slaves. Japan, creating loud problems for us, was actually our shield in the East. How is China now ...
So Stalin’s foreign policy weight was on the eve of 1941.
That's interesting, but in 1921. fighting Poland and almost taking Warsaw, we also had no weight in world affairs?

[smile]

lexe
1. The trouble is that the German Communists were primarily Germans, and then the Communists, and were not as roomy dogs of Stalin as we would like. They did not have any serious posts in power and did not possess any serious resources. In fact, they did not have the opportunity to influence state policy. During the war, ordinary Communists vigorously went to the front and fought normally, resisted the unit regime, and then they were seated in concentration camps.
2. Hitler joyfully worked 400 million occupied Europe. Were they not hidden enemies? Nothing, Hitler somehow coped. The British also coped. To say that the 550 millionth empire, possessing resources and industry exceeding our goals by several times ... is strong ... :))) Yes. yes, yes, Britain, built a monstrous fleet still being able to control almost the entire oceans from hopelessness ...
3. I am not a communist and have never been.
4. We did not choose any paradigms. Having chopped off huge territories from RI and having created puppet hostile regimes of the Entente country there were not going to allow the restoration of the power of our country. They did everything for this. what they could. The bombing of our oil fields in the year 40, which, according to the British and French, was supposed to put us on their knees, was prevented by the Germans. Read the memoirs of De Gaulle - he clearly and unequivocally talks about it. It was within the framework of this policy that they implemented the isolation of the USSR economic. political and military. In the thirties, without the permission of Britain (and only then France) in Europe, no one even dared.
5. The psychology of the peoples of the colonial countries was quite suitable for an aggressive war. In the early 30s, they excelled us in wealth, resources, and industry. military potential is not at times, by orders of magnitude.
Yes you are a joker. my friend ... :))) Japan in the 30s, it turns out, was our shield on the Far East ... :)))) there are no words ... ETOGES it is necessary to blur such a thing ... I will not cling, we must understand everything ourselves :) ))Basically. if you say this, then it’s clear what the price is for your deep conclusions ... :)))
By 41 goals, when the continent did not become the largest European players in Europe - England and France. Stalin’s weight appeared. Yes, and a frantic attempt to catch up with the alleged aggressors bore fruit ... and in the 30th century of our country in international affairs, indeed, almost 0.
The latter, at 21, fighting the invading Poland invading us (the army of which was armed, supplied, and even commanded by the Entente, Comrade Pétain and De Gaulle, by the way, participated) for their lives, the international weight of Russia was not just zero - it was a negative value.
The country is destroyed, huge industrially developed pieces of the territory are torn away. industry is dying, the transport network barely works; there is no training, there is simply no education and engineers, modern weapons are not produced. damn, we can’t even equip the army with uniforms and boots ..on all borders they look at us over the sights, in the Crimea Wrangel, gangs all over the country .... what international weight? We were near death !.

[lexe]

I understand you ... you think that a tragic accident happened in 1917. And repetition in another serious country was not possible.
But then what is the concept of a communist idea?

The Russians were Russians in 1917, but they opened the front to the enemy! The Spaniards (with cultural influence in South America) were also Spaniards, and even with a traditionally strong Catholic church. But the Germans, well, just give them fascism.
But what about the phrase Who comes to us with a sword will come from the sword and ...
But the communist idea was a sword. And we could not defeat the enemies with the same weapon ...
There was no reason for the Russian people not to burn in the firebox of the world bacchanalia — (as Trotsky wanted) —but they could partially repay the debts.

In the early 30s, they excelled us in wealth, resources, and industry. military potential is not at times, by orders of magnitude.

Meant west?

Japan in the 30s, it turns out, was our shield on the Far East ... :)))) there are no words ... it needs to be blinked like that ... I won’t cling, we must understand everything ourselves :))) In principle. if you say this, then it’s clear what the price is for your deep conclusions ... :)))

And the conclusions are simple ... Japan carefully monitored the growth of the US economy. You understand that almost everything! Was invented then in the USA and England / France. Ford's ideas with its conveyor should be added to this. That is, capitalism was reborn before our eyes! And it was much a greater threat to an independent state than the communist idea.
Well, first attack the backward state of the USSR and then get in the back with a club from the developed? -Your logic.
And last ... foreign policy weight is a dumb amount of bayonets. Yes, with ragged shoes without uniforms, it’s even worse and more convincing You can immediately see who the enemy of capitalism is.
Having gone through a civil war, the Red Army command had the experience of a mobile war — how many kilometers were wound in the offensives / transfers, not a single army had! And the campaign was solving a lot of issues, both domestic and political remember how many all sorts of independent activists we had then.
The Germans carefully studied the experience. Even the attributes of the form were adopted from some parts of the White Army.
And all that you wrote, this is not there ... And who is to blame? And do not, by 1941 the mountains were mountains. Even chemical and bacteriological weapons could answer. Many scientists around the world idolized communism. So, if you wish access was to so many developments; no one canceled espionage.
So about our excessive weakness, you exaggerate.
The main thing we needed for war and espionage was with us!

[smile]

lexe
Arctic fox .... this is not an argument, but a set of words ... besides Rezunov’s stamp about experience in a mobile war .... sorry, but you are so spread by thought on the tree that it’s even hard to catch and crush you .. you slip between your fingers .. :)))) Spaniards, Japanese ... a club in the back is from a rezun ... the fact that the Germans adopted certain attributes of the uniform from us ... it is bold and worthy of entering into the annals .... :)) )) and about mountains of weapons, it’s also a reason, it’s a pity that, as usual, it is lying. (I wonder what you think about the fact that we couldn’t put a BS for 76 mm tank guns in an amount of more than 10 percent ... the old tank corps entered the battle without having a single BS shell for the most modern tanks) and our weakness was not just excessive, it was out-of-the-box and desiccated .... ours knew about it .... the coolest thing they didn't know about it only ours, but not ours .. there were as many engineers at the Messerschmidt factories as in the entire Union ... it’s another matter that Stalin was able to create an industrial empire from a backward agrarian state ..... having a modern army ... army, in combat qualities exceeding everything that was before it, we were forced to create be in the course of the war .... Well, it happened ...... it is not our fault .....

[lexe]

You push yourself.
Did I refer to Rezun somewhere? No
Yes, I read it. The riddle is simple - there can be no emptiness in nature. Emptiness must be filled with truth or falsehood. The whole truth about the war I think will never be revealed. foam at the mouth convicting Rezun, because it is clear that he swung at their bread.
The essence of historical science is revealed - to lie with a smart look. And everything else is details ...
And who prevented earlier to give out more or less objective sources about the Second World War in the form of famously twisted reading?
I don’t know what secrets Rezun gave, but he is the founder of a new genre. It's boring for people to read textbooks, but brains need to be filled with idiology
So do not refer to Rezun -you go down to the graduate class history textbook.
And in Rezun’s textbook, like in any textbook, there are a lot of cliches and fabrications.

we were forced to create already during the war .... well, it so happened ...... it’s not our fault .....

That's where the scribe is...
Well, what’s next, Rezun will have a green light. Probably this is the goal

[smile]

lexe
As a person. He has read all his books that we have published. I instantly recognize his trademark expressions ... which expressions you used I pointed out ... I don’t know. Did you pick them up from him or his followers .... just hurts his eyes. :)))
When you say "historians" you are using rezuna again ... and you are not thinking. that when you criticize all historians, you sit in a puddle? Look, ALL historians, professionals in their field, unanimously despise rezun ... you are pretending to be right. and they are all-kaka ... ugh. some professionals there .... :))) you will say in the same way that all doctors and drunken plumber Vitya are right. claiming to cut appendicitis with a rusty file? Why haven't you read medical treatises ... the emptiness around. which the plumber rezun kindly filled you with his delirium ...
And the essence of historical science is history. the essence of a liar is a rezun, a lie and nothing but a lie ... or let's disperse the bad historians and appoint plumbers instead of them? :)))
Rezun did not create any genre. everyone knows how to lie and false historical versions have been put forward since then. how writing appeared ...
And the last .... you understand. what say That people are bored of reading serious works. because they read all nonsense ... who is to blame? Historians, liar Rezun or foolish people? :))))
Yes .... dog .... you did not refute any of my words ... if not laziness, well. try to justify and reveal your last line ... otherwise you are too slippery. try not to say anything specific so that you aren’t caught by the tail ... :)))))

[lexe]

But it would be something to refute.

When you say "historians" you are using rezuna again.

No comment.
Well really the historian-word is abusive and if you uttered it then you are already a rezunist.
So all your hints about rewrite (Rezuna) using the Russian language and common words will not work! Or everyone who speaks Russian too ...
Without people who first read the textbooks, the historian will not work. Yes, and the plumber should not have a mess in the head, as it was 100 years ago.
And Rezun is the new textbook of the history of the new liberal Russia.I am against such a textbook!
Oh yes ... books are not approved, but this is just a formality. They always read something that is more interesting.

Yes .... dog .... you did not refute any of my words ... if not laziness, well. try to justify and reveal your last line ... otherwise you are too slippery. try not to say anything specific so that you aren’t caught by the tail ... :)))))

You slipped into your personality. Talking about nothing more was the last line.

[smile]

lexe
I repent and apologize for being too harsh.
About your rezunizm. He has a very specific writing style, his own, easily recognizable syllable. You used all this. You also used almost all of his arguments, with the help of which he tries to call ALL historians dishonest and bad .... well, how else to understand this?
And with the discussion it’s really time to tie, failed.

[Snoop]

Ahahaha))) Stalin's guilt that he did not fit into the internal affairs of another sovereign state)))

[lexe]

Ahahaha))) Stalin's guilt that he did not fit into the internal affairs of another sovereign state)))

Exactly!

[chenia]

Quote: Lexi

. Threw millions of Germans at the feet of Hitler

And what is Germany something like Buryatia? Or did he teach the Germans instead of beer, Georgian wine or chacha to drink?
You are hinting there about a failed alliance with the Social Democrats. The topic passed, this alliance did not solve anything, But the German capital, the German officers, decided with the permission of eternal "friends" with their eternal interests.
Even the Franks jerked a little (they didn’t dig their Channel with the Germans yet), but the Anglo-skunks convinced them too, they say the wind is such that the Bosh will sail the other way.

Quote: Des10

He answered - the Nazis were ahead of us. This is the year 1970.
My parents survived the war, grandfathers fought. I believe them.

Under certain circumstances, we could, in principle, hit, the Japanese, for example, fucked and not shy. Even in the forties, if the new Entente were more stable, the Germans could throw a hedgehog in their pants (eh, at least once they would get drunk at someone else's expense).

But at 41, there was definitely no desire. This would have been one-on-one with the Germans, and it remains to be seen which allies (oh, and did not like us) would have appeared.

[lexe]

And what is Germany something like Buryatia?
I am not a supporter of the comparison between our region and Germany. Have you granted Buryatia independence?
The situation in Germany after the 1-in-1 defeat resembles our dashing 90s. And in many ways it’s even worse. I recall after the first crazy years, we have elections and the unspoken victory of Zyuganov. This is despite the fact that then the communist idea was still fresh and the Germans didn’t tasted this fruit like us. So the Germans, not having the natural beauties of Buryatia, were in a worse situation

The theme is passed, this union did not solve anything,

I have not covered this topic in any educational institutions.

And it was the German capital, the German officers who decided with the permission of the eternal "friends" with their eternal interests.

But 12% of the population could have muddied the water! Let us recall the sabotage of ideological enemies in the USSR.
And so yes all of these several million Germans in the future are soldiers on the eastern front.
So its communism in its entirety, and Europe ... Yes, the grenades are not that system. And that in 1917. were there no capitalists and officers in the Russian Empire?

[smile]

lexe
Naturally, we tried to somehow influence Germany in the 30s, but the trouble is that our hands were short in order to achieve tangible successes there. The result - we could not prevent Hitler from coming to power. The British and the US outplayed us. because. that their influence was incomparably greater than ours.

[Bigriver]

Quote: smile

... And not only Germany could attack, but also other coalitions, including France and Britain ... Japan, Poland .....

Before Hitler came and the deployment of the German war machine, it was Poland that was perceived by us as the most likely aggressor in the West.
Now it seems ridiculous to many.

[smile]

Bigriver
In the opinion of our General Staff, Poland was going to enter the war with us as part of a coalition of countries. As a matter of fact, the Poles really planned an attack on us, and really were not going to do it alone.
And so, I agree with you.

[Snoop]

The meaning of chewing chewed? Suvorov’s apologists will repeat like a parrot: “In the main, he’s right!
On the other hand, it is interesting to read the opinions of visitors to the site, it turns out that such a mess in my head happens)
Stalin had to foresee and ... (Pythia, what?) Stalin threw the poor Germans at Hitler's feet, etc. etc. If we accumulate all the accusations against Comrade Stalin into one, then it will sound like this: this bastard was not the Lord God! In fact, all the accusations come down to this.

[Des10]

it is not appolegetes, but a sound comparison of facts. Few people could reasonably refute it.

[RoTTor]

I think the majority of readers and admirers of this site have no reason to convince of the delirium of fascist propaganda.
Other questions arise:

 How badly all Soviet ideologists worked wholesale and retail, that so many seemingly educated people believed and continue to believe all the illiterate delirium of the traitor to the Motherland and the traitor ka rezun, who is not suitable for anything, except to compose new x ... nude - so as not to to die of hunger - there is nothing like lying and betraying. prev. For the West, he is a worked out, but in Ukraine he is almost a hero: interviews with this ... are printed, etc. his "books" are published and republished.
 How badly did all the special officers, personnel officers, political workers work who allowed all these traitors to the Motherland - Belenko, Shevchenko, Rezun, etc. to responsible work, but tightly closed all the doors to real patriots, if they were of the “wrong” nationalities?

It is not surprising that with such a state personnel policy of the state, more seasoned cutters are Yeltsin, Gorbachev, Kravuk, Shushkevich and their “ideological” echoes — Volkogonov, Yakovlev, and so on. they lurked for a long time, wrecked themselves from within, penetrated the highest power and easily did what the Nazis failed to do - they destroyed the USSR.

[Bigriver]

Quote: RoTTor

.... as many educated people as they believed and continue to believe all the illiterate delirium of the traitor of the Motherland and the traitor kaz rezun, ..

I have been observing rezunists for years and ... In general, there is a category of people who make up an opinion about a subject from one book. It is desirable that there were not very many sheets, the font was large and the writing was fun. Like Jules Verne.
Studying the issue is work for years. And it’s broke for them.
In general, I do not blame them. This is a given, a property of any society.
So it was and will be.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: BigRiver

I have been observing rezunists for years and ... In general, there is such a category of people who make up their opinions about the subject from one book

One book - one gyrus - the only opinion ...
So life has passed ...

[alex20081308]

And how many drool. Traitor traitor Herod and so on

[Lukich]

Quote: alex20081308

But what did Germany need at that moment in war ??? Not a single author, except Rezun, has yet clearly explained why, by the end of June, the main shock fist of the Red Army was located in the Bialystok ledge. In the immediate vicinity of the border. Not one author, again except Rezun, he didn’t clearly explain why Stalin went to the elimination of Poland by creating a common border with Germany. And while there is no other clear explanation of these issues, he has to adhere to his opinion. Well, and then I agree again with Rezun, what is so bad about attacking fascist germany ???? And as for the Second World War, so it began not at 41 but at 39. so the author again stuffs us with a set of meaningless propaganda phrases without the slightest fact. Article is nonsense. The author is a big minus

... firstly Rezun the traitor, also stupid and he did not say anything new. In 1967, we had a friend visiting, Uncle Vanya, he worked in the Kremlin, then he said in conversation with Father that we were preparing to attack Germany in 1942, we were preparing, we had plans, we developed a doctrine, .. .so what.

We did not attack Germany, Germany attacked us and pushed it to this all, all of Europe and Poland including (read the story)
... and for Rezun - the more he will beat the country that he betrayed, the better - some kind of excuse for himself ...

The US Secretary of State said "in the American doctrine there is no possibility of delivering a preemptive nuclear strike against the aggressor." (Ushakov's dictionary explains that "the aggressor is the culprit of aggression; the one who attacks; the attacker") ... this is the logic

... you won’t tell in a nutshell, and the article is not written to do a complete analysis of the beginning of the war - this is a short answer to Chamberlains like you dear and your friend, traitor Rezun (he also took Suvorov pseudo-p. oz.ele) ...

... Article plus and minus you ...

[alex20081308]

Quote: Lukich

... firstly Rezun the traitor, also stupid and he did not say anything new. In 1967, we had a friend visiting, Uncle Vanya, he worked in the Kremlin, then he said in conversation with Father that we were preparing to attack Germany in 1942, we were preparing, we had plans, we developed a doctrine, .. .so what.

Comrades !!!. Well, finally funny. Uncle Vanya was at a party and said that he worked in the Kremlin and saw Stalin, aunt Frosya said that the Herods were nonsense, and that under Stalin it was even worse. Well, again, a stream of saliva and cries. And when the facts go. Who will answer those two questions in my first commentary in the development of the discussion. Just do not say that Stalin felt sorry for the poor Belarusians and Ukrainians and for this went to the partition of Poland. And how many of them then perished in his camps ???? And I just can’t understand why attacking Hitler is considered bad. Though kill I do not understand the logic. Hitler is the offspring of man, but we, having a stronger army and profess to bring freedom to the peoples of Europe, will not attack him. DO NOT DOWN

[smile]

alex20081308
What is your cunning ability not to notice what was answered to you. Walk on the branch - you have long been ... you dried ... and explained that we DID NOT SHARE Poland. we returned the lands it had seized .... in short - go convince the Ukrainians and Belarusians that they should go under the Poles. close their schools, abandon faith, give land to the besiegers, not speak their own language, and much more is exactly what the Poles did on our captured lands ... this is in addition to the burned villages and mass shootings ...
Convincing request. walk along the branch, read those who have smeared you and answer reasonably, rather than wring your little hands pathetically and don’t make Yaroslavna’s cry ... At least kill him. why disgrace so ... if you are against-defend your point of view. but stand up for those. who already smeared you. instead of making a voice crying in the desert ....

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: smile

instead of making a voice crying in the desert ....

Smile, this is some kind of vicious circle.
We are like lecturers in a deaf but not dumb house.
I have the impression that a voice thwarted. In sorrow ...

[smile]

stalkerwalker
Right! And it’s disgusting and tired of writing the same thing for years .... but it turns out that the generation of the wretched is resuming ...... and really, as the Suvorolyubs try, you can go crazy at the machine gun firing off these ... especially gifted ..... .if honestly, outraged by the position of colleagues who scored x ... :))))) ...... I understand, too lazy, but at least one comment :))))) Alexander Romanov .... , why are you, such a clever girl, too lazy to spit towards the entih, on this branch? You poison poison if not more than mine ... or rather, I think, maybe more .... well, use it with good ... :)))))

[Lukich]

Quote: Ruslan67

Quote: discard

Mythology is the favorite brainchild of dictators, justifying the existence of the regimes they created.

It's time to connect the administrative resource I’m not enough for your whole pack

...You are not alone...

... and she’s a pack of sows ... from time to time they catch and castrate their Hitzel, and then they release the truth, not to kill them ...

[lexe]

Is that the power of the USA? ...
The strength is that every political hue and spectrum has a job and a budget.
Are you Mr. Trotsky? Ok get a budget and blow make color revolutions.
Liberal? Okay budget and revolution again
It all depends on the device of the country of destination and each has its own trump card.
Stalin, however, did not make himself a world communist leader in China. On the contrary, he also negotiated with the nationalists.
What prevented finding a common language with Hitler's enemies in Europe?
And there was no strong trump card-pressure on Europe-Trotsky. Stalin discarded this card, hoping that in return for giving up the world revolution he would receive recognition from heads of state who were simply shaking from one thought-world revolution.
Holding Trotsky on secondary roles could achieve a lot. The ice ax had to earn more.)))
But Trotsky’s personality was too bloody and ambitious.
That's when in Germany (including) they realized that Trotsky was not in danger, the process began and Hitler appeared. This was perceived as weakness.
So we look at the USA and admire how they can negotiate at home with their political circles. And we will continue to be sausage.
Now time is lacking, people just need a return to the point of no return-1917. And this point is very scary West because it stands behind her! The Russian Empire. And they are not afraid of communism in Russia.
Remember that under the kings, we harnessed European affairs preventively more than once! Without leading up to June 22.

[smile]

lexe
To establish a common language with Hitler's enemies was hindered by that. that they treated us even worse. than to him .... how could Stalin establish communication with our European enemies if they did not want this?
By the way. Trotsky is not a map, but a mortal enemy of Stalin and our country. Very dangerous and powerful. getting rid of which was very difficult. And it was simply impossible to keep this cannibal on any roles ... would you not keep Hitler on minor roles?
And Trotsky was not afraid of Europe. on the contrary, very convenient. On the one hand, the guarantor of the weakening of the USSR. with the other buggy. which could justify any aggressive actions against us. That is why. when this ... kicked out of the country. he easily received any visas of any country and skated like cheese in butter ... they really needed him.
The rest of the nonsense I do not deny, tired. Yes, and they are less dangerous ... answer, huh? Tomorrow afternoon I will be on the site. :)))

[lexe]

And to keep on this role of this cannibal was simply impossible

And what does Chubais do under Putin? —That's the answer. I would like to believe.
No, of course, there are a lot of BUTs in such comparisons. However, the figures for casualties from mindless privatization and rampant liberal anarchy are impressive, and many media outlets have openly talked about millions with Putin's rise to power. So there are similarities.

[smile]

lexe
So ..... let's finish the topic, and then we will expand the argument ... otherwise your statement looks like an attempt to evade, feint, anti-aircraft maneuver .... and then, when you are smeared for the previous lies. let’s if we criticize Pu, then criticize, and not carry unreasonable obscure nonsense .... okay?

[lexe]

Where did you see Putin's criticism?
I can even expand your worldview - who is lying near the Kremlin? And how many streets do we have with the names of past leaders. And this is in a country where 80% of Russians believe in God, but every day we walk along the streets with the names of those whom the church called servants of the devil.
And we live ... And this is a new reality.
And this is not my feint, but the feint of today's idiology - to connect not connected.

[lexe]

Expelled ... another mystery. And whom! fierce enemy.
Trotsky was an analyst who still needed to be looked for. An evil genius. He was a person who could ruin anyone and anything. Of course, such a shot was easily given visas. He knew absolutely everything about the new country !!! And Stalin released such a valuable information carrier .. .-I think it was a real gift to Western intelligence agencies.

[smile]

lexe
about Trotsky, I agree, but the suspicion creeps in that the Old Men are right — Trotsky’s connections with other special services were very old.
And I don’t need to expand my consciousness :)))) usually the fans of mescaline and LSD say so :)))) I strongly disagree! :)))

[Des10]

Yes, always when it is necessary to appeal facts, arguments, figures and cite specific sources - for many, the way out is a splash of emotions and patriotic words.
It's not about the traitor traitor. To object to that is adequately weak, and emotions have the upper hand.

Quote: BigRiver

There is a category of people who make up an opinion about a subject from one book. It is desirable that there were not very many sheets, the font was large and the writing was fun.

the traitor has more than one book, a lot of sheets, written - yes, fascinating. But, no one has deprived you of reason - this refers calmly and analytically.
The truth is in the real actions and documents of the Third Reich
the author did not read any documents.

Moscow did not need large-scale wars, and without that it was full of worries, and she was not ready for such a war, preparations had not yet been completed. The Soviet Union did not need "living spaces", slaves, the idea of ​​"world revolution" Stalin buried in the second half of the 20-s. The USSR needed peace.
but this is right! : "Moscow did not need large-scale wars ... preparation is not over yet."

[family tree]

Quote: Des10

Yes, always when it is necessary to appeal facts, arguments, figures and cite specific sources - for many, the way out is a splash of emotions and patriotic words.
It's not about the traitor traitor. To object to that is adequately weak, and emotions have the upper hand.

This is a little complicated. With Rezun.
Well, quite simply, in Rezun’s style: Lenin didn’t live in exile (fact?) And it started: Because Krupskaya kept him engaged in prostitution Simplified, of course.
Your task is to prove that this was not, appealing the facts, arguments, numbers and citing specific sources.

[chenia]

Quote: smile

This is despite the fact that then the communist idea was still fresh and the Germans did not taste this fruit like us. So the Germans, not having the natural beauties of Buryatia, were in a worse situation laughing

Of course, the Weimar Republic was doomed. Either the Nazis or the left (communists and social deputies) should have come to power. The Nazis also have very socialist left rhetoric (but without internationalism), and demagogy about a higher race (what a balm for a wounded and humiliated German soul belonging to any German body in terms of class origin). And all the previously designated forces played up by the Nazis.

The Nazis were in power (they quickly covered up democracy) - external economic pressure (indemnification) was removed, the Nazis were allowed to violate certain articles of the treaty, and so it went. Immediately, the attractiveness of the Nazi authorities increased sharply.

Franks and shavers (OBSERVERS) could stop them at the beginning? Elementary, but then the charm of the Nazis passed (and they would not even hold power by force).

Who are next in line? That's right, followers of an everlasting teaching. And all the power and resources of the fraternal Soviet people ensured the indestructible eternal Soviet-German friendship. And the German generals and officers would be ready to wash away the shame of defeat and humiliation in the WWII, albeit under the red flag, together with the Red Army.

And the OBSERVERS calculated everything, and so the Nazis were allowed everything. Hitler knew this, and not quite well-versed Germans (a bastard from such defiantly arrogant adventures) immediately wrote him down in the Fuhrer - with the gift of foresight and the right to kill.

In principle, even if it was not the USSR but tsarist Russia, the policy of the Anglo-skunks was the same. To ultimately push Germany and Russia together with their foreheads.

[smile]

chenia
Interesting opinion. Thank you.
Here is just one hitch, in principle, we could not be allies with Hitler. Only a temporary forced truce, nothing more. The abyss is too big. And it was precisely the German high officers who had a physiological hatred of Russia and the Communists. For them, it was of great importance what flag was waving over them. And when the British and. oddly enough, the Americans led Hitler into power, his Russophobia was a defining moment.
The rest, I agree.

[Torquemada]

Quote: BigRiver

Before Hitler came and the deployment of the German war machine, it was Poland that was perceived by us as the most likely aggressor in the West.

My bell tower looks like this: either in the 39th USSR it attacks Poland together with Germany, or in which case the front starts 250 km closer to Moscow. And for Western Belarus in the 39th, that the Germans, that the Soviets, are against whom anyway ... And partly the saturation of troops is also due to this.

[Bigriver]

Quote: Torquemada

My bell tower looks like this: either in the 39th USSR it attacks Poland together with Germany, or in which case the front starts 250 km closer to Moscow ...

We did not attack Poland with Germany. The Polish campaign began on September 17. By this time, Poland, as a subject of international law, was absent on the globe. Since the government of this state fled abroad.
There was a territory with Poles, Belarusians and Ukrainians.
Units and formations of the Red Army passed their entire plot along Polish territory in marching columns.
Actually ... We hesitated, and waited for something. Apparently, they were waiting for the reaction of England to the aggression of Germany. Poland - it was after all a personal dog of Great Britain on the continent.

[alex20081308]

The date of the attack was agreed in secret annexes to the pact.

[Bigriver]

Quote: alex20081308

The date of the attack was agreed in secret annexes to the pact.

Documents in the studio!
Fund, inventory, business, sheet?
And a clarifying question. According to your document, the beginning of the Polish campaign of the Red Army was agreed on September 17?
If so, what is the meaning of this particular date? That is, more than two weeks after the start of German aggression?

[Selevc]

The more I read the comments on the topic of the 41st half-year, the more I am moved ... So many emotions are just screaming comments like - Stalin is a criminal, others are ready to kiss him on the contrary, Rezun is a traitor or vice versa and so on ...

It seems to me that there is less emotion and more logic on this subject - did Germany attack Poland? - It attacked, Germany annexed Czechoslovakia - of course, but what was the USSR to do - to look at it all calmly, or wait until the Germans capture the Baltic states with Moldova and Western Ukraine and Belarus as well? Of course not !!! This is what concerns the pre-war foreign policy of the USSR - in my opinion everything was done absolutely right !!!

As for the 41st year, it is becoming more and more difficult - it is impossible to concentrate such huge forces along the western border of the USSR in principle !!! And by June 22 there was on the one hand the colossal power of three Wehrmacht groups on the one hand and the strength of the first echelon of the Red Army on the other !!! And there I already think the question of a matter of days - who will strike first - naturally the one who attacks first and receives a strategic advantage ...

The fact that by the beginning of October of the 41st half of the year, in fact, the troops of the USSR of the First and Second Echelons opposing the army group, the center says a lot !!! There were probably huge forces of the Soviet troops in the direction covering Moscow, and by the middle of the fall of 41, all this had gone somewhere ??? The fact that Siberian divisions were used in the Red Army’s winter counterattack near Moscow suggests that by the winter of the 41st there were very few Red Army units in the European part of the country that could cover such a vital milestone as the defense of the USSR Capital !!! In my opinion, a real miracle in this most difficult period of the war was done by the rear workers - a truly colossal work was done to evacuate the country's production capacities and to establish their work in the future !!! This is what the Germans did not take into account !!! And also did not take into account the mobilization resource of the USSR !!!

[chenia]

Ultimately, the whole debate boils down to the question: WHO IS GUILTY IN UNLOCKING WAR?

The West wants to prove that in order to prevent the beginning of Soviet expansion, it was necessary to use Nazi Germany as a shield.

It is SHIELD, and everything else that happened, is the aggressive nature of communism. The Soviets supposedly seduced the Nazis and pushed them on a gamble to offend the poor European nations, and deprive them of the innocent .. well, in the sense of independence.

And then meanly at the most unexpected moment, in an insidious way they wanted to hit their ally. But the Nazis were ahead of them.

It was the suggestion of this fabrication, about the desire of the USSR to fight initially, that would justify the Anglo-skunks.

[Shadowcat]

Wow, what I dug up ... schA rezunists and other clique to strangle .... (oh dreams dreams)

But did you know that on the 20th of June 1941 in the USSR military exercises of the Black Sea Fleet were held?

On June 14, 1941, large general naval exercises began in the northwestern Black Sea region together with the troops of the Odessa Military District. Their time was unusual. For many years, such large exercises were held in the fall. They completed the summer period of combat training of the ships of the Black Sea Fleet.

And I have not found the information yet, but I continue to dig that in the 20 numbers exercises were to take place already in other regions of the USSR. The essence of the teachings was their surprise for the composition.

Of course, they may object to me that it was a variant of preparation for war, but I will answer "Si vis pacem, para bellum". With the same success can be called the exercises conducted in the Russian Federation "Caucasus", "Vostok" and other operations to capture the world.
Guys can I enlighten, we conquered the Baltic states, Poland? Maybe they recaptured Manchuria and a tricolor develops over the Tokyo Tower? Either the media are silent from fucking up, or is it really just the exercises conducted by any country in order to increase the combat readiness of the troops.
So the increased combat readiness of the troops in June 41 was quite understandable even if the possibility of an attack was discarded. Of course, the exercise is conditionally "sudden", but what commander wants to be prescribed therapeutic "pi .. scolding"?

[havas0000f]

The article is disgusting both in the presentation of the factual data and in the general editing of the text. It is necessary to drive the vulgar, paid amateurs with the necessary "crusts" out of this science with an iron broom. They are a brake on the path of progress in the study of World War II, Hitlerism as an antidote to Stalinism. There is no logic, consistency, which were, for example, the philosopher Ilyin or DS Merezhkovsky. One lie out of cowardice to lose a "profitable place." - Hitler met insolent blackmail (November 1940) from Molotov and realized that they were trying to "put on a noose. on the neck "(see A. Hitler's letter to Mussolini (21.06.1941/1977/86). Only then he was forced to prepare for war with the USSR. It is not enough. As the world famous modern researcher of the era of the Third Reich and Hitlerism writes, David Irving - Hitler's War and War Path (1940-XNUMX) and others, back in June XNUMX a Turkish diplomat told his colleague with connections in the USSR that Stalin was inclined to side with the Anglo-Saxons. This, of course, became known to Hitler. Since then, his strategic plans gradually became to change ... But who to "believe", a paid Soviet bureaucrat from science or David Irving, let me decide. No thanks!

[sleepy]

Quote: havas0000f
"... Hitler met with insolent blackmail (November 1940) from Molotov
and realized that they were trying to "put a noose around his neck"
(see letter of A. Hitler Mussolini (21.06.1941).
Only then was he forced to prepare for war with the USSR ... "

But what about "Mein Kampf", where the eastern territories are considered
how relevant for Germany?
Based on the requirements of A. Hitler, put forward by him in early June 1940 The development of an attack plan, code-named Barbarossa, was begun.
And what kind of blackmail was Molotov?
Soviet-German talks in November 1940 of the year showed
that the USSR is considering joining the Tripartite Pact,
but the conditions set by him were unacceptable for Germany,
since they demanded her refusal to intervene in Finland and closed her the possibility of moving to the Middle East through the Balkans.

[sleepy]

Quote: havas0000f
"... Hitler met with insolent blackmail (November 1940) from Molotov
and realized that they were trying to "put a noose around his neck"
(see letter of A. Hitler Mussolini (21.06.1941).

Is this about Hitler's nightly message?
“On the night of June 21-22, 1941, a little later than three o'clock, the Italian dictator Mussolini was awakened by a message from Hitler.
“At night I don’t even bother my servants, but these Germans just ruthlessly force me to jump out of bed,” he complained with displeasure.
The letter began with the phrase “months of disturbing thought” and further informed Mussolini about the impending offensive.
“I feel,” Hitler assured him in this document, invariably and vigorously returning to it to his own person, “since I forced myself to make this decision, again internally free.
For all the sincerity of the desire to achieve final detente, cooperation with the Soviet Union nevertheless often greatly burdened me;
for in some ways it seemed to me to be a break with all my origin,
my views and my previous commitments.
I am happy that I got rid of these mental anguish. "

Fest I.T. 3.P. 404

[sleepy]

Quote: havas0000f
"... the Turkish diplomat told his colleague who had connections in the USSR that Stalin was inclined to side with the Anglo-Saxons ..."

Schulenburg read out a version of Hitler’s official statement in the form of a diplomatic note. This was already a familiar statement, full of all kinds of dragged-out fabrications and lies, in the drafting of which Hitler and Ribbentrop filled their hands and to which they resorted every time,
to justify another act of unprovoked aggression.
However, this statement - such, in any case, the impression
the author of these lines, when he read it again, exceeded all the previous ones in absolute shamelessness and deceit.
While Germany strictly complied with the terms of the Nazi-Soviet pact, the statement said, Russia has repeatedly violated them.
USSR carried out "subversive activities, terrorism and espionage"
against Germany, he (USSR) "fought against Germany’s efforts to establish a stable order in Europe."
He conspired with England to carry out an “attack on German troops in Romania and Bulgaria.” Concentrating "all available Russian forces
on a long front from the Baltic to the Black Sea, ”he“ threatened ”the Reich.

The statement went on to say:
“The reports received over the past few days exclude any doubts about the aggressive nature of such a concentration of Russian troops. Besides, there are reports from England about the negotiations of Ambassador Cripps on closer political and military cooperation between England and the Soviet Union.
Summarizing the above, the Reich government in this regard declares that the Soviet government, contrary to its obligations:
1) not only continued, but intensified its attempts to undermine Germany and Europe;
2) pursued an increasingly anti-German foreign policy;
3) concentrated all its forces in readiness on the border with Germany.
Thus, the Soviet government broke its treaties with Germany
and is about to attack her from the rear. In this regard, the Fuhrer ordered
the German armed forces to counter this threat
by all means at their disposal. ”

Shearer W. S. 346–349

[linen]

I'm sitting right now, drinking with the nephew of that same Panfilov. He has a medal from Chernobyl. Here are the people !! I am to them, as to the moon.

[individual]

Goebels shot himself on May 1, 1945.
But the fetid ideas turned out to be tenacious, they metastasized in the "revelations" of Rezun-Suvorov, and his followers N. Svanidze, L. Gozman and other Pivovarovs presenting history in the light of Western propaganda of defamation
the results of the Great Victory of the Soviet Union over fascism not only in Germany, but throughout Europe.
These shortcomings are trying to rule the ball of historical falsification.

[Andrey77]

These shortcomings use a gap in the official history of our state. So what is the problem of opening archives for the 40-46 year of the Moscow Region and the FSB? Until they open. And why?

[Fetel]

Today, Israel is delivering preventive strikes. I hope he will suffer the fate of Hitler.

[Andrey77]

And it does it right. Hitler’s fate will befall all dictators, sooner or later.

[morpogr]

Mythology is a dangerous thing. If you think about it as a reason, then at first Czechoslovakia terribly threatened the Germans, then Austria decided to threaten it, and so that there were no more threats, they cleaned Belgium, Holland and France.

[Enot-poloskun]

By the way, is Rezun not going to take a bath with a tie according to Berezovsky’s prescription?

[Asan Ata]

One veteran with whom I worked in the 80s, who went through the whole war, told me that in May 1941 a Russian-German phrasebook was circulated in military units with expressions like "Where is the burgomaster." German planes flew to us back in April, our fighters met them and drove them out of the territory, while it was forbidden to shoot in the direction of the border. There were many wheeled tanks on the border, and this was explained by the fact that there were many good roads in Germany. Probably the two titans were cramped and, with the same agility, both were preparing, only Hitler was ahead.

[Selevc]

Asan-Ata from all that you write it does not at all follow that the USSR was going to be an aggressor !!! And if he was planning to, then the attack on Hitler is an attack on the aggressor and this is a very fair war !!! In the USSR, there was a clear pre-war strategy in case of the Great War - if the enemy attacks to break it at the borders and go on the offensive - and there, of course, Russian-German phrase books and wheeled tanks will also be needed - after all, it was planned to use German autobahns during the offensive ...

The USSR, by the way, declared war on Japan later - attacked the aggressor - but for some reason they do not shout at every corner that the Soviet Union was an aggressor in the Soviet-Japanese war !!!

[Bigriver]

Quote: Asan Ata

One veteran with whom I worked in the 80s, who went through the whole war, told me
.. There were many tanks on wheels at the border, and this was explained by the fact that in Germany there are many good roads ...

You, than retelling the stories, would take the time to study the complex state of the Red Army and the military-industrial complex of the USSR for the summer of 41.
This is the "key" to everything. And not someone's desires and personal testimonies.

[MaKeNa]

Everything is clear for a long time! There was a VERY BREAKING ATTACK, the main goal of which was to destroy as many units of the Red Army as possible in the first days of the war. The German generals were not stupid, they did not need a long war. Everything was planned clearly and tough! understand "The heroism of the Soviet people, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, that's what the enemy again did not underestimate, and he laid down his head !!!

[Naval]

This is an excellent method, it is also used perfectly by the current Western ideologists of the USA, NATO - if you want to achieve something, blame the enemy for what you are doing or planning to do. Thus, by arranging genocide in Iraq or Yugoslavia, fomenting war there, the USA, NATO accused the Serbian leaders, Saddam Hussein, of this.

The worthy heirs of Hitler-Goebbels and the goals are the same misanthropic.

[wolf1945]

however it was, the Nazis attacked the USSR, we defended ourselves and WIN!

[chenia]

Quote: Asan Ata

One veteran with whom I worked in the 80s, who went through the whole war, told me that in May 1941 a Russian-German phrasebook was circulated in military units with expressions like "Where is the burgomaster."

Yes, and I’ll tell you, at our Department of Foreign Languages ​​(English) there was a topic — interrogation of a prisoner of war. This is worse. Both in the GSVG there were 6 armies (3 tank) and the General Staff had developed plans for invading NATO countries (they are supposed to develop such documents against aliens according to the charter). And Ogarkov had the doctrine of victory in the limited European theater of war. So what? But I forgot all the boots with a leather boot.

[lexe]

Authorities are concerned about the possible development of US biological weapons near the borders of Russia (Georgia)

So will we wait for the new June 22nd?! with biological color

Or again

however it was, the Nazis attacked the USSR, we defended ourselves and WIN!

Ahahaha))) Stalin's guilt that he did not fit into the internal affairs of another sovereign state)))

Let’s take the example of the brilliant Stalin again? If so... then we will no longer need the subject of history. It’s just that its history will be written in a different language.

[Hort]

Perhaps you still need to devote time and reprint your test on the history of international relations here in the form of a short article. I wrote on the topic of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and, in short, behind the German attack on the USSR were Chamberlain and British intelligence, and Hitler himself, of course. Adik fell for the promises of the British that they were the last stronghold of Europe against Bolshevism (this was back in 37 or 38, if my memory serves me correctly). And one cannot help but recall the non-aggression pacts and attempts to conclude more serious agreements between France, England and Germany, so our pact of ’39, the division of Poland, etc., were a significant victory in the diplomatic game, which made it possible to delay the war for another 2 years and, also important , create a split between Germany and Japan - the latter was “very dissatisfied” with the Germans’ treaty with the USSR, which largely contributed to the Japanese taking a passive position in the Far East in 41.
It remains to be regretted that they did not have time to secure the Krauts with a more serious agreement, although it was already being developed (and it seems that a friendship agreement was signed, although I don’t remember exactly, if I was wrong - sorry :))
Actually, one of the reasons for the division of Poland and the common border was joint military operations against the Entente (but this remained in theory). But Comrade Hitler decided to lead a campaign against the “Red Horde” and we were again pitted against each other, although the Krauts are our beneficial geopolitical ally (as we are for them, by the way).
What is significant is that many generals in the Wehrmacht and individual geopoliticians (Haushoffer) were against a “war on two fronts.” And Haushofer almost directly spoke about the need to create a continental union "Paris-Berlin-Moscow" and condemned the racist bias in the ideology of the Reich, but he was imprisoned

[Andrey77]

I would love to read your test, especially since I agree with your version. Subscribe in PM. But calling a historical figure “Adik” is unprofessional. Now let’s slide down to “Gorbik” and “Usatiy”...

[Djozz]

Rather, Adik was pushed to go to war with the USSR by the Zionists, with whom Adik had relations until 1942. there was a touching friendship. In a post-war interview, the former head of the Zionist Federation of Germany, Hans Friedenthal, said: The Gestapo did everything to help the emigration of Jews. We often received various kinds of help from him. (F. Nicosia "The Third Reich and the Palestinian Question")

[Andrey77]

A classic of the genre - a Jewish conspiracy. True, there was no state of Israel at that time, and the Germans began driving Jews into ghettos in 1935. And who pushed whom in 1935? And who is “Adik”? Is your friend from the Caucasus?

[avt157]

Quote: chenia

Yes, and I’ll tell you, at our Foreign Language Department (English) there was a topic - the interrogation of a prisoner of war. This is worse.

Please specify the educational institution.
Thank you.

[havas0000f]

Sleepy, it feels like you are probably a well-paid, informed “chekist”; you quote entire paragraphs, however, from those books that I know well. But I think that the text, for example, of Hitler’s letter to Mussolini on the eve of the invasion of the USSR is much more significant , than a retelling, albeit famous, of I. Fest. This is my method - I try to stick to the original source. But that’s not the point now. You lie about A. Hitler’s “unprovoked aggression”, always and in everything. I will limit myself to the period before the outbreak of hostilities in territory of Poland on September 1, 1939. In order to be “in the know,” Fest or, especially, Shirer will not be enough for you. For this, I advise you to read the great, but still hushed up book by a Harvard graduate, Doctor of Historical Sciences , already deceased, deprived of all regalia for this work, David Hoggan: Der erzwungene Krieg (1961). The tragic fate of this book was revealed when its translation into English was printed (The Forced War; 1984-86). In 1984. the building in which this translation was printed was burned to the ground by unknown persons (sic!). This is the standard American democracy! The book had to be assembled from charred pieces. An important point: “aggressive” Hitler in the last peaceful days made gigantic efforts to peacefully resolve legitimate claims against Poland (Danzig, Corridor), offering Poland (29-31 August) the so-called Marienwerder Proposals, which you will hardly find a mention of, except for the falsified interpretation at the Nuremberg Trials (1946). Information about these peace proposals of Hitler was hidden from post-war German for decades public. Unbridled Poland, as a result of the so-called. Anglo-French “guarantees”, refusing any negotiations, brazenly challenged the much stronger Germany, forcing Hitler to begin local, as he hoped, military actions against Poland on September 1, 1939. England and France were not stopped by Hitler’s safety net Pact with Stalin and on September 3 of the same year they declared a WORLD war on Germany, catastrophic from a geopolitical point of view. These are, to a first approximation, the initiators of the ensuing world massacre. No thanks!