Military Review

Soviet infantry against tanks

208
German General R. von Mellenthin in his memoirs about the Eastern Front wrote: “It seemed that every infantryman had an anti-tank rifle or anti-tank gun. The Russians skillfully disposed of these funds, and it seems that there was no place where they did not exist. ”


Textbook to combat tanks

Of course, only artillery could fight the enemy tanks most effectively. However, in this article we would like to consider more simple, "manual" means of dealing with steel monsters, those that were in service with our infantry.

From the beginning of the war, a simple and intelligibly compiled brochure was distributed to the fighters of the tanks among the fighters of the Red Army. Here are brief excerpts from it: “The source of the movement of the tank is the motor. Disable the motor - and the tank will not go on. The engine runs on gasoline. Do not give in time to bring gasoline to the tank - and the tank will stand without movement. If the tank has not consumed gasoline, try to ignite the gasoline - and the tank will burn.

Try to jam the tower and weapon tank. The engine of the tank is cooled by air that flows through special slots. All movable joints and hatches also have gaps and leaks. If a flammable liquid is poured through these slots, the tank will catch fire. For observation from the tank there are viewing slots and devices with hatches. Cover these gaps with mud, shoot at them with any weapon to jam the hatches. Try to kill the tank caterpillar. As soon as the servant seems, beat her with more help: a bullet, a grenade, a bayonet. To reduce the mobility of the tank, arrange anti-tank obstacles, put mines, land mines ".

What did the infantry have?

Soviet soldiers acted in accordance with the instructions of this small and simple textbook, and achieved notable success. For the destruction of enemy armored vehicles, our fighters widely used incendiary bottles, mines, hand grenades, anti-tank grenades, anti-tank guns. However, in the first months of the war, only mines and grenades were the only means of fighting infantry against enemy tanks. With anti-tank rifles - a powerful and reliable weapon in the capable hands of a tank destroyer, the cover plate was originally released, but more on that below.

Initially, anti-tank grenades were simply given out to those soldiers who were capable of accurately and, most importantly, throwing them far, after which the soldiers, armed with grenades, were evenly distributed along the line of defense. In the future, the actions of tank destroyers became more active and organized. They were united in groups for which special training was conducted. During the battle, the group of tank destroyers no longer expected a direct attack in their trenches, but moved directly to the place where the danger of a tank breakout occurred.

Such actions justified themselves in the battle of Kursk. When 5 July 1943, the German steel avalanche tanks began to attack, they were met by pre-formed detachments of tank destroyers, armed with grenades and anti-tank mines. Sometimes mines were brought under tanks from the trenches with the help of long poles. On the night after the battle, the uninhabited enemy tanks, which were near the front edge of the defense, were detonated by our sappers with explosives.

Saboteurs

In the winter of 1944, sabotage groups were created, specifically designed to destroy enemy vehicles. There were selected the most powerful and fearless fighters. A group of three or four people underwent special training, after which they were sent to the enemy’s rear for several days to carry out a combat mission.

Armed with machine guns, anti-tank mines and grenades, the saboteurs destroyed enemy tanks in the most unexpected places for the Germans: in parking lots, at gas stations, in repair zones. There is a case when our sappers managed to mine a tank stopped at a German inn, while its crew quenched their thirst with beer. The German tankers did not notice anything, ten minutes later they started the car, but did not have time to start off, as a powerful explosion was heard ...

This form of fighting with tanks was quite effective, but it required close contact. For the destruction of tanks at a distance in addition to grenades in the infantry, anti-tank guns were widely used. But, as already mentioned, anti-tank rifles in the USSR at the beginning of the war turned out to be a hitch.

Prewar mistake

It turned out that by the year 1941 there were no anti-tank guns in the Red Army. There were only developments, in particular, there existed in the prototype an anti-tank gun 14,5 mm of the Rukavishnikov system. The fact was that Marshal G. I. Kulik, who was at that time the head of the Main Artillery Directorate, was confident that the Germans were armed with tanks equipped with powerful anti-bullet armor. As a result, the marshal managed to convince Stalin not to start producing anti-tank guns, and even to stop producing light guns of 45-76 mm caliber "out of use." From the very first days of the Great Patriotic War, it turned out that German tanks had rather weak armor, but there was simply nothing to break through.

The Rukavishnikov anti-tank rifle in all respects was superior to the samples that existed at that time in the world, but it had one major drawback — it was extremely difficult to manufacture. Stalin demanded such a weapon, which can be produced as soon as possible. As a result, two Soviet gunsmith designers V. A. Degtyarev and S. G. Simonov were assigned the task of urgently developing an easy to manufacture and maintain, but at the same time effective anti-tank gun. After a couple of weeks, samples of anti-tank rifles, developed and manufactured on sleepless nights, began to be tested at the test site, then engineers received an invitation to the Kremlin. Degtyarev recalled: “On a large table, around which the members of the government gathered, next to my gun lay a Simonov anti-tank gun. Gun Simonov turned out to be ten kilograms heavier than mine, and that was his disadvantage, but it also had serious advantages over mine - it was five-shot. Both guns showed good fighting qualities and were adopted. "

Degtyarev's anti-tank gun (PTDD) turned out to be easier to manufacture and immediately went into mass production. The situation at the front left much to be desired, and all made guns were sent near Moscow, to the front line directly from the shops. Somewhat later, the production of a Simonov rifle (PTRS) was widely developed. Both of these models have proven themselves in battles.

Armored workers

The calculation of the anti-tank gun (PTR) included two fighters: the shooter and the loader. Both of them had to have good physical training, since the guns had a length of about two meters, had considerable weight, and it was quite difficult to carry them. Yes, and shoot from them was not easy: guns had a very powerful impact, and a physically weak shooter could easily break his collarbone with his butt.

In addition, after several shots, it was necessary to urgently change the position, quickly taking both the gun and ammunition with them, as the German tankers were very afraid of anti-tank guns, and if they detected combat crew, armed with the AV, then they tried to destroy it with all their might.

With the appearance of enemy tanks on the front, protected by more powerful armor, the value of anti-tank guns declined, but they continued to be used until the end of the war, and were successfully used not only against armored vehicles, but also against aircraft. For example, in 1943, the fighter-armored soldier Denisov 14 and 15 July near Orel shot down two German bomber from the PTR.

Our anti-tank guns from the Germans themselves were highly appreciated. Neither the German nor the Hungarian anti-tank guns, which were in service with Nazi Germany, could not be compared with the works of Degtyarev and Simonov.
Author:
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208 comments
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  1. Kars
    Kars 8 February 2014 08: 49
    +25
    _____________________________
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 8 February 2014 11: 29
      +27
      About the same. The enemy "will not pass"
      1. Vovka levka
        Vovka levka 8 February 2014 13: 39
        -7
        Quote: Den 11
        About the same. The enemy "will not pass"

        But at what price, and the price was terrible.
        1. builder74
          builder74 8 February 2014 20: 12
          +13
          So the enemy was unprecedentedly strong.
        2. 123dv
          123dv 9 February 2014 22: 25
          +4
          My friend, we will not stand for the price!
          Remember ...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 9 February 2014 22: 31
            -6
            In-in-in! The words of this officer! Women still give birth! Is it true? Sing on the praises of your Zhukov! Rokossovsky is the man whom we must honor !!!
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 February 2014 22: 40
              +2
              Quote: Den 11
              Words of a real officer! Women still give birth! Right?

              Field Marshal Apraksin’s phrase, uttered back in the 18th century: “Women still give birth to peasants, and they cry for horses with gold!”
            2. Day 11
              Day 11 9 February 2014 23: 13
              -9
              Which of you are warriors? Even here, please, justify your point of view! I don’t give a damn about your minuses, and you will always be matzans
              1. Vovka levka
                Vovka levka 9 February 2014 23: 36
                -2
                Quote: Den 11
                Which of you are warriors? Even here, please, justify your point of view! I don’t give a damn about your minuses, and you will always be matzans

                Do not be angry, here on this site there are many guys with slingshots. Alas, this is life.
            3. CAMS
              CAMS 10 February 2014 06: 37
              +1
              or maybe it was impossible otherwise, but you watched the film "General", about General Gorbatov, because it was there that Rokosovsky demanded that Gorbatov take the city by November 7, which the general refused to do. the time was like this, but chatter at the level of "rain" is inappropriate here. That is why the Russian soldier is terrible for the enemy, which does not count with the victims
              1. rkkasa xnumx
                rkkasa xnumx 10 February 2014 21: 00
                +2
                Quote: KAMS
                , and you watched the film "General", about General Gorbatov, because it was there that Rokosovsky demanded that Gorbatov take the city by November 7

                Do you really study WW2 history from films? The lie about "take Kiev by November 7, at any cost" has long been refuted by historians.
          2. Vovka levka
            Vovka levka 9 February 2014 23: 34
            -2
            Quote: 123dv
            My friend, we will not stand for the price!
            Remember ...

            I remember.
            My father's brother died at the end of April 1945 in Germany. Their commander did not stand up for that price fight either, although it could have been done differently. All the possibilities were only on. Rena, forward your mother.
            1. 123dv
              123dv 9 February 2014 23: 41
              +1
              Wipe the foam from your mouth, choke.
              1. Vovka levka
                Vovka levka 10 February 2014 13: 16
                -2
                Quote: 123dv
                Wipe the foam from your mouth, choke.

                If human lives are statistics for you, then there is nothing to comment on.
            2. CAMS
              CAMS 10 February 2014 08: 28
              +2
              it was a war of extermination and talking from what could have been otherwise stupid. everyone knows that they did not spare people, and that the Germans would have regretted them.
            3. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre 10 February 2014 12: 21
              +4
              although it could have been done differently
              In hindsight, everyone is strong. Peacetime statement on this matter: "I would have known the buyback, I would have lived in Sochi"
  2. invisibility
    invisibility 8 February 2014 08: 56
    +21
    The error cost us dearly, but with a quick orientation.
    And how many feats Soviet armor-piercers performed !!!
    In skillful hands - a very formidable weapon!
    1. tilovaykrisa
      tilovaykrisa 9 February 2014 23: 07
      0
      The gun was indisputably useful, but instead of guns to 41g, fauspatrons would have developed a type of German, if we had something like a RPG in 41, then the German would not have reached Moscow.
  3. bistrov.
    bistrov. 8 February 2014 09: 35
    -20%
    Still, no one has yet explained so: -How did it happen that in the first two months of the war almost 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed or captured? And the Germans had less than four thousand tanks! Top of headshots or betrayal? Moreover, Soviet tanks in their performance characteristics were higher than German ones. So if they were used properly, you probably would not have to hurry to create anti-tank rifles and Russian soldiers did not have to go down under a German tank with a bunch of grenades, stopping it at the cost of of life.
    1. Siberia 9444
      Siberia 9444 8 February 2014 10: 23
      -30%
      Read the book by Mark Solonin: “June 23. "Day M" "
      1. Shogun23
        Shogun23 8 February 2014 10: 52
        +25
        It’s ridiculous ... To present corned beef as an authoritative source for explaining the beginning of the war is certainly strong.
        1. smile
          smile 8 February 2014 15: 09
          +28
          Shogun23
          You can still bring the rezun as an afforiteness - and what, he can see everything from the bowels of the Foggy Albion :)) and he tells the whole truth to everyone ... he even gives a tooth. :)) Or you can flip through his follower Bunich ... only then you need to wash your hands, otherwise the worms will start ... :))))

          But reading Ulanov and Shein "Order in tank troops", or Sick "20th century of tanks" is not destiny. :)))
          Surprising is the number of people who did not bother to read on the question of interest. Vsezh open - poke a finger at the keyboard - and read, even read out. But no, it is better to ask sacred questions in an angry voice, pathetically wringing little hands :)))
          1. Shogun23
            Shogun23 8 February 2014 15: 19
            +4
            Quote: smile
            You can still cite as an afforder

            And the losses will be counted for us by Borya Sokolov)))
        2. Siberia 9444
          Siberia 9444 8 February 2014 16: 53
          -10%
          Watch the gear cycle day after day! 96 films are described there almost every month of the war. Or give another authoritative source, since you are so funny! Although there is nothing funny in that book!
          1. Shogun23
            Shogun23 8 February 2014 17: 16
            +8
            Solonin, this is just a scribbler-idiot, and he took most of his "ideas" from the already mentioned Bogdanych, who is an even greater distortion of facts. Take at least what he considers really approved and accepted by the so-called. plan "thunderstorm" ("thunder").
          2. Timur
            Timur 9 February 2014 00: 12
            +10
            who is in charge there? seem truthful. that one. in almost every series, saliva rumbles about squadrons. By the way, 96 episodes are three months
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 00: 36
              +10
              Quote: Timur
              seem truthful. that one. in almost every series, saliva rumbles about squadrons

              He would have a woman’s headscarf tied to his head - you can send to mourners for funerals laughing
          3. samoletil18
            samoletil18 9 February 2014 15: 57
            -2
            And "World War II. Day by day." Why didn't you please? Enough, for less than 30 minutes each month, objectively.
            Z, S, Look at what Volkssturm was armed with. And against what! Here we, if one can say so on this topic, were luckier in 1941 more fortunate than the Germans in 1945. Faustpatron? This is approximately 30m range, for example.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 17: 41
              +6
              Quote: samoletil18
              And "World War II. Day by day." Why didn't you please?

              Personally, to me - an unsuccessful attempt to grasp the immense ...
              There is no doubt - a huge amount of work has been done. But in the assessment of what happened, the spirit of "rezunov-salted bean-boonichi" in the tearful performance of an elderly man with twitching hands is directly visible. And the second of the three "commentators", who looked like a merchant of the 3rd guild, did not hide his personal disgust when assessing the actions of the highest military-political leadership of the USSR, not forgetting, at the same time, to sing hosanna to the traitorous Cossacks, like their commander Panvitsa.
              I make it clear.
              Giving facts is one thing and giving personal assessment of what happened ...
              1. samoletil18
                samoletil18 10 February 2014 15: 08
                0
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                Providing facts is one thing, but giving a personal assessment of what has happened ..

                It is rightly noticed. I skimmed some comments myself.
            2. _CAMOBAP_
              _CAMOBAP_ 9 February 2014 19: 56
              +8
              The whole war can be summarized as "lucky or unlucky". At first, the British Expeditionary Force was "unlucky" in France, then strangely "lucky" in Dunkirk ... Hitler was "unlucky" that he had driven out the German Jews, who had forced him to flee - as a result, he never had a "vigorous loaf" ... so you can give endless examples. IMHO, our main "luck" is that at the helm of the country there were those who did not sell or betray their people and their country for "cookies". Otherwise, neither the courage, nor the perseverance, nor the readiness for self-sacrifice of ordinary soldiers and "vanek-platoon" soldiers would have saved us ...
          4. Yegorchik
            Yegorchik 10 February 2014 01: 57
            +2
            Quote: Siberia 9444
            Watch the gear cycle day after day! 96 films there almost every month of the war is described.

            Are you really watching this abomination? It’s hard to imagine a more biased and biased coverage of events. If your knowledge is obtained from such poor sources as Govnyuk and Solonin, I can imagine how much garbage is in your head.
        3. Timur
          Timur 9 February 2014 00: 06
          +8
          or traitor rezun. polonium him in the hangar ...
      2. Day 11
        Day 11 8 February 2014 11: 23
        +15
        Until some time, Solonin considered it an authoritative source --- he was deeply mistaken. When he began to weave about the innocently ruined souls of the red commanders ... Give a link?
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 8 February 2014 14: 11
          +1
          Justify for minus weak?
          1. Siberia 9444
            Siberia 9444 8 February 2014 14: 33
            -5
            I also can’t understand for what minus I did not write this book but you can read !!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many interesting facts. request
            1. nok01
              nok01 8 February 2014 21: 09
              +5
              Well, you just disliked, that's all laughing
            2. Timur
              Timur 9 February 2014 00: 15
              +5
              for not figs ....
            3. family tree
              family tree 9 February 2014 00: 25
              +9
              Quote: Siberia 9444
              I also can’t understand for what minus I did not write this book but you can read !!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many interesting facts.

              what You can read, but what for all to tell that I got into laughing
    2. Sergei 163
      Sergei 163 8 February 2014 10: 54
      +26
      Tank troops are not only the characteristics of a tank. These are battle tactics, interaction with infantry, artillery and aviation, supply and those. service, crew training, communications and intelligence, high-quality industrial production, and most importantly, combat experience. Without all the components, a tank is a deaf, blind and broken iron box! The USSR could get all this only through the bloody experience of the war. But the Germans, unfortunately, already had this experience.
      1. Shogun23
        Shogun23 8 February 2014 11: 17
        +9
        Plus, to compare the number of tanks, it’s silly, it’s not a one-day battle of the Middle Ages, when two masses of soldiers collide on the same field.
      2. DS22
        DS22 9 February 2014 05: 15
        +3
        I draw attention to the military doctrine of the USSR - to beat the enemy on its territory. It was true that the tank itself was just a piece of iron. But the tactics of tank combat in the conditions of retreat, unfortunately, were not yet worked out in the initial period of the war. Hence the frontal counterattacks and abandoned equipment. Of course, there were quite a few cases when commanders, by virtue of their natural ingenuity and knowledge, skillfully organized maneuver defense with the help of tank units, but these are more likely to be isolated cases than regularities.
    3. Shogun23
      Shogun23 8 February 2014 11: 04
      +11
      Quote: bistrov.
      Still, no one has yet explained so: -How did it happen that in the first two months of the war almost 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed or captured?

      Everything is extremely simple, the lack of supply, clear interaction between the troops, and the presentation of the real state of affairs, due to insufficient radiification, as well as the lack of air cover played a role.
      In addition, of those 20 thousand, the vast majority were T-26 and BT tanks, which were discontinued and therefore there were no spare parts for them, and no one had canceled tank breakdowns, but the damage caused many of the HFs that had unreliable transmission.
      Quote: bistrov.
      Moreover, Soviet tanks in their performance characteristics were higher than German.

      For instance? Not taking into account the T-34 and KV, which have recently entered the troops and the crews, as well as the commanders of the formations have not yet learned how to operate them, using all the advantages of these vehicles, as well as some "childhood diseases" of these tanks (for example, low-quality bulletproof glass, which had a lot of bubbles in its structure, did not make the survey of observation devices of high quality, or the absence of a gunner, the position of which had to be performed by the commander, or like minor flaws, like the lack of a rotating floor at the tower), all of this in its totality reduced the combat effectiveness of these machines and tactical and technical superiority of the latest tanks.
      Quote: bistrov.
      Now, if they were used properly, then perhaps they would not have to hastily create anti-tank rifles and Russian soldiers did not have to go under a German tank with a bunch of grenades, stopping it at the cost of their lives.

      PTRs were used both during and after the Battle of Kursk, and very successfully. besides, in the infantry division, long-range means of fighting tanks were simply necessary, since you won’t get into all the infantry units of the tanks, but the PTR is the most successful solution (as for example in modern RPGs or ATGMs)
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 9 February 2014 12: 46
        +2
        Quote: Shogun23
        T-26 and BT tanks, which were discontinued and therefore there were no spare parts for them,

        This is pure bullshit, BT and T-26 tanks fought at 42m, and some even survived to later times.
        Even the photos of those times are preserved.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 13: 12
          +3
          Quote: wanderer_032
          BT and T-26 tanks fought at 42m, and some even survived to later times.

          In August 1945, during the defeat of the Kwantung Army.
        2. Shogun23
          Shogun23 9 February 2014 15: 11
          +2
          Do you feel the difference - out of production and out of service?
          1. Cossack23
            Cossack23 9 February 2014 15: 39
            +1
            on such trifles burned laughing
    4. Bosk
      Bosk 8 February 2014 11: 05
      +14
      According to the Armed Forces of the USSR, at the beginning of the war, 28% of the old-style tanks needed major repairs, on average, 43%, no more than 28% were in good working order, this is me to the fact that quite a large part of the captured and destroyed tanks fell on those which were at the repair bases, all this multiplied by the surprise of the attack ..., again, do not forget the difference in the tactics of using tanks, for example, our tankers were not taught to work from ambushes before the war, we believed that tanks were both in defense and in the offensive will "work" actively ... here.
    5. Zymran
      Zymran 8 February 2014 11: 53
      +3
      There is a good book on those events, "Order in the Tank Forces" by the authors Shein and Ulanov.
    6. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 8 February 2014 12: 50
      +8
      Still, no one has yet explained so: -How did it happen that in the first two months of the war almost 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed or captured?
      And the Germans had less than four thousand tanks! Top of headache or betrayal?


      A difficult and much complex question.
      The answer to which was briefly given by one of the German generals (I do not remember who, I think Guderian), after inspecting the T-34 in 1941, roughly in the following expression: "The Russians have created an excellent weapon, the advantage of which they do not know how to use."
      The command of the Red Army at the beginning of the war did not possess modern tactics and strategy of action of the troops, already developed and mastered by the Germans during the Polish and Western military campaigns and expressed in concentrated tank-mechanized strikes on a narrow sector of the front, converging in the deep rear of enemy troops and creating huge "cauldrons encirclement of enemy troops.
      In addition, the generals of the Red Army at the beginning of the "war of motors" did not know how to use mechanized and tank troops. This is evidenced by at least the fact of the creation of clumsy mechanized corps, including, according to the plan of the General Staff (Zhukov G.K.), 1000 tanks.
      Our "military minds" in the person of the same Zhukov did not even think about how to organize the combat operations of such a mass of troops, their supply and repair, interaction not only with infantry, sappers, artillery, aviation, but the tank units themselves with each other.
      Zhukov G.K. even after the war, in his memoirs, he claimed that we had a lot of "bad old gasoline tanks that burned", forgetting to say that some "old" BT tanks were produced in 1940-41, that all German tanks were gasoline and they generally had there were no diesel tanks.
      Our tanks without communication, acted in battle independently on their own.
      Tank commanders who did not have commander towers had a poor view of the tank, at the same time they were gunners, loading and, accordingly, did not monitor the progress of the unfolding battle.
      The members of the tank crews, as well as the entire bulk of the Red Army men, had a low level of education, which hampered the training and competent use of the equipment entrusted to them and led to the mass failure of the tanks, due to their illiterate use.
      That is why in the first year of the war the USSR lost more than 20 thousand tanks against 4500 German tanks.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. creak
        creak 8 February 2014 13: 18
        +7
        Quite rightly - in addition, the 8th mechanized corps of the Southwestern Front, for example, had 858 tanks of EIGHT various modifications by the beginning of the war. Of these, 171 tanks were equipped with a diesel engine and required diesel fuel, the rest needed gasoline of three different brands. Armored vehicles were armed with guns of calibres 37, 45 and 76 mm, attached artillery regiments of calibers 122 and 152 mm.
        In conditions of maneuver warfare, the full supply of units and formations at that time was simply impossible.
        And it seems to me appropriate to cite here an excerpt from the memoirs of A.V. Egorov: "With Faith in Victory" - "Our regiment had to attack the enemy and my battalion, consisting of 18 KV tanks (and there were 31), was the first to enter the battle. Forced marches put out of action 13 vehicles The regiment advanced 2 km and crushed the enemy firmly, but itself suffered heavy losses - it left the battle with 2 surviving tanks.This is the picture emerging by the beginning of the war and during the well-planned battle, and this is evidence of direct participants in the war who can be trusted .. ...
      3. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 8 February 2014 14: 02
        +6
        Quote: vladimirZ
        lost more than 20 thousand tanks

        Still, I venture to claim that most were abandoned due to lack of gas and repair during the retreat. Moreover, the Germans were able to repair their damaged tanks, because they were moving forward.
        If you take the analogy with airplanes, airdromes clogged with equipment were thrown.
        Pilots landed in a lorry and orderly departed to the rear
      4. EvilLion
        EvilLion 8 February 2014 15: 00
        +2
        It's already 2014 year in the yard, and you write all this nonsense. Yes, these tanks burned in the counterattacks of 41, threw something because of the inability to evacuate. Because when there is not enough infantry and trucks, then all that the tanks can stupidly carry with them more adversaries, which they did. These tanks were exchanged for German infantry and guns under the conditions of an overwhelming superiority in the forces of the enemy and the betrayal of Mr. Pavlov, for which he was shot. BT, by the way, differed in extreme fire hazard according to Zhukov’s reports even after Khalkhin-Gol. It is useless to consider tanks when the enemy has a general superiority in forces due to the pre-emption achieved by purely political means in deploying 2 weeks, and better with transport.

        at least the fact of creating clumsy mechanized corps, including, according to the plan of the General Staff (G. Zhukov), 1000 tanks


        The Germans did the same, but after practical warfare, the number of tanks in the division was reduced by one and a half times. Give the Germans a year or so in the 38th a couple of thousand more tanks, they would have built these very Soviet mechanized corps.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 8 February 2014 15: 10
          0
          In a sense, true. In a statement --- a shame!
          1. vladimirZ
            vladimirZ 8 February 2014 15: 43
            +8
            In a sense, true. In a statement --- a shame!


            It's a shame that our generals came to the beginning of the war, unprepared and unencumbered by knowledge of modern tactics and strategy of action of troops, because of which, by the end of 1941, the Red Army alone had lost about 3 million people, about 20 thousand tanks, 20 thousand aircraft, more than 40 thousand art. guns, the Germans were allowed near Moscow, giving most of the European part of the USSR with its population to the enemy.
            Not without reason, in the postwar memoirs, many of the generals wrote that the first 2 years of the war they learned to fight the Germans. And I would add learned to fight, spilling a sea of ​​soldier's blood.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 8 February 2014 15: 49
              +3
              I absolutely agree with you !!! Try to explain this to forum patriots who in their hands did not hold AKM!
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 February 2014 16: 14
              +4
              Quote: vladimirZ
              It's a shame that our generals came to the beginning of the war, unprepared and unencumbered by knowledge of modern tactics and strategy of action of troops

              only one thing is interesting - and who was then burdened by them? French people? The British? Americans? Poles? Japanese? Italians?
              the Germans really made a breakthrough, yes. In addition to the Germans and as of 1941, no one mastered the tank war in the world.
              1. vladimirZ
                vladimirZ 8 February 2014 16: 32
                +3
                and who was then burdened by them? French people? The British? Americans? Poles? Japanese? Italians?
                the Germans really made a breakthrough, yes. In addition to the Germans and as of 1941, no one mastered the tank war in the world.


                The Polish, French, English generals did not have time to study and respond adequately, since the Germans practiced blitzkrieg on them.
                And our generals had time. Only they rejected this German strategy, they say, with a mustache, even though "the academies did not finish."
                Zhukov G.K., being the chief of the General Staff, having received on his desk an overview folder of the actions of German troops in Western Europe and the blitzkrieg strategy they used, he simply ignored it, not accepting the material presented in it. What can be seen from his actions as head of the General Staff of the Red Army and the command exercises he organized for the highest generals of the Red Army in December-January 1940-41, which were attended by Stalin I.V.
                1. Shogun23
                  Shogun23 8 February 2014 17: 28
                  +6
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Zhukov G.K., being the chief of the General Staff ...

                  And even before the outbreak of World War II, Zhukov himself used tactics similar to a blitzkrieg, surrounding and destroying the Japanese at Nomongan.
                  In general, the "blitzkrieg" is by no means some kind of innovation of Hitler and Guderian, similar tactics were expressed by many, including Schlieffen, in the war against France he was going to use lightning strikes that would force the French to capitulate. During the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-78, the Russian army also used mobile units (light cavalry and horse artillery) to occupy strategically important points such as crossings, strongholds, and so on.
                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 8 February 2014 17: 32
                    +3
                    It's nice to see a man understand (trying to figure it out!). I wish you health !!!
                    1. Shogun23
                      Shogun23 8 February 2014 17: 38
                      +2
                      And you do not get sick dear)))
                  2. vladimirZ
                    vladimirZ 9 February 2014 06: 35
                    +2
                    In general, "blitzkrieg" is by no means some kind of innovation of Hitler and Guderian, similar tactics were expressed by many, including Schlieffen, in the war against France


                    Yes, this is not an "innovation" like a tactical maneuver of troops, used since ancient history, BUT it is an innovation in a highly mechanized war with the use of clear interaction of all branches of the armed forces used in the modern war at that time.
                    For this, the Germans used not only tanks, which in themselves do little, but added motorized infantry in armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery in self-propelled guns, mechanized engineering support units, aviation to destroy point targets on the famous Ju-87 dive bombers "Stuka" ... And all this was linked by a reliable instant connection, without which these various types and types of troops would not be able to work in one bundle.
                    So, it is impossible to compare the "tactics of Zhukov" used by him on Khalkhin - Gol and the German "blitzkrieg". These are completely different and incomparable methods of troop action.
                    1. stalkerwalker
                      stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 13: 16
                      +3
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      For this, the Germans used not only tanks, which in themselves do little, but added motorized infantry in armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery in self-propelled guns, mechanized engineering support units, aviation to destroy point targets on the famous Ju-87 dive bombers "Stuka"

                      The presence of attached anti-aircraft equipment along with organized aerial reconnaissance was the main condition for an organized meeting of the tank counter-attacks of the Red Army, which often began without any artillery preparation.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 February 2014 23: 19
                  +5
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  The Polish, French, English generals did not have time to study and respond adequately, since the Germans practiced blitzkrieg on them.
                  And our generals had time

                  Sorry, but you are now printing such ridiculous things ... no, well, do you seriously believe that if our generals would have made any tactical conclusions there, then the Second World War would have gone somehow differently ?!
                  War, dear VladimirZ, these are not arrows on the map. This, almost in the first place, is the level of training of officers and privates. Which the Germans had in 1941, but which was not and could not be ours in the same 1941.
                  Both Germany and the USSR after the WWII had a reduced army. But the Germans switched to universal conscription in 1935, ours in 1939.
                  At one time, I sketched a short article on this topic http://alternathistory.org.ua/rkka-v-1939-g-nepobedimaya-i-legendarnaya-ili-kako
                  vo-ee-realnoe-sostoyanie-v-eto-vremya
                  I won’t, of course, copy it all, but let me remind you - the Wehrmacht, which in 1935 had much better starting positions than the Red Army did not even have 3 years to become a fighting force. Tymoshenko, with many worse initial conditions, did not have two.
                  1. vladimirZ
                    vladimirZ 9 February 2014 05: 52
                    +1
                    no, well, do you seriously believe that if our generals would have made any tactical conclusions there, then the Second World War would have gone somehow differently ?!


                    No. Naturally, I do not think so. BUT in the case of competent actions of the general, the loss of people and military equipment would be much less.
                    And the war would not be so tragic for the USSR.
                    In the first comment, if you read it, I wrote that the causes of the defeat were complex, including poor training of all personnel.
            3. EvilLion
              EvilLion 8 February 2014 23: 06
              -3
              Just do not need about the illiteracy of the command staff, he acted in those conditions, as a rule, adequate to the situation. The lack of knowledge will be just later, and not among the generals, but among the lieutenants, to whom the generals will be forced to prompt elementary. Surely something, and knowledge is always always preserved primarily in the command structure, and not in those who, in the first battles, as a rule, end up in a hospital or underground.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 February 2014 23: 22
                +8
                Yes, there was no literate one. In the USSR, for a long time, the number of the Red Army was 500 thousand people, by 1939 they "caught up" to 2 million people, and according to the wartime states, according to the deployment of the 1940 mobplan, it was required to deploy more than 8 million people!
                Well, think for yourself, where did the officers come from?
        2. Starina_hank
          Starina_hank 8 February 2014 18: 55
          +3
          Judging by the German chronicle of 41 years, most of the equipment was destroyed or abandoned on the march.
      5. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 8 February 2014 20: 44
        +3
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Guderian seems to be), after inspecting the T-34 in 1941, roughly in the following expression: "the Russians have created a magnificent weapon, the advantage of which they do not know how to use."

        von Mellenthin wrote in his memoirs "Tank Battles" something like this: "The Russians have created a wonderful tool, which they did not learn to use," and so on.
        1. bistrov.
          bistrov. 8 February 2014 23: 05
          +1
          After reading all the posts written to my "provocative" question "why 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed" I want to say that none of the Soviet military commanders answered him directly and completely. Answering it directly is to recognize the strategy and tactics of the Red Army of that time, erroneous, all the high command and leadership of the country were stupid and unruly, and the rear services were cumbersome and clumsy. And the commanders of the units did not even bother to withdraw their troops to the field areas, the soldiers calmly lay down to sleep in the barracks, and the officers in the apartments, although they clearly heard the roar of tank engines and the clanking of tracks on the border. And then they said that the war came unexpectedly! But the charter directly requires any commander to be guided by a specific situation, independently conduct reconnaissance and act depending on it. And then the infantry "van" had to pay for all this, who defended the country with his breast, dying in unequal battles, incl. and with the above-described PTRom. Well, even though the 14,5 mm cartridge was worked out, otherwise it would have to be created in combat conditions. One thing I don’t understand is why they put minuses for my question? Or are we afraid of acute questions, because modern events can be compared with the situation in the pre-war years. What are we going to like an ostrich to hide our heads in the sand?
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 8 February 2014 23: 44
            +4
            Quote: bistrov.
            After reading all the posts written to my "provocative" question "why 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed," I want to say that none of the Soviet military commanders answered him directly and completely.

            Edren loaf!
            Take an interest, for a start, about the results of the tank battle near Dubno — Lutsk — Rivne in the last days of June 1941.
            On the structures and methods of tank and motorized formations of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army.
            It seems that after pokatushek on World of Tanks, many went roof ...
            And if you don’t understand anything, remember the results of the battles of the Central and Voronezh Fronts in July 1943 ...
            1. family tree
              family tree 9 February 2014 00: 01
              +2
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              On the structures and methods of tank and motorized formations of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army.

              Well, this is also, besides the manning of tank and infantry divisions with materiel and command personnel, what is the T-26, which was mainly in these units, what were the T-34 and KV in June 1941, when they arrived and how much time the crews had to master them.
              It seems that after pokatushek on World of Tanks, many went roof ...
              if Che forgot, so sorry, only got out of the pokatushek request fellow drinks
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 00: 07
                +4
                Quote: perepilka
                Well, this is also, besides the manning of tank and infantry divisions with materiel and command personnel, what is the T-26, which was mainly in these units, what were the T-34 and KV in June 1941, when they arrived and how much time the crews had to master them.

                So it is not in dispute ...
                Both on the neighboring thread about Rezun, and here, there is a weak knowledge of the material being discussed, and an attempt to take "on the throat" and drool.
                Quote: perepilka
                if Che forgot, so sorry, only got out of the pokatushek

                And bruised a lot? laughing
              2. Day 11
                Day 11 9 February 2014 00: 13
                0
                What are you fighting?
                1. family tree
                  family tree 9 February 2014 00: 23
                  +2
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  And bruised a lot? laughing

                  Mustache in moderation, there is not to infringe the main thing, but to cause damage laughing
                  Quote: Den 11
                  What are you fighting?

                  I play, do you feel the difference? Well, that’s what I play on request
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 00: 33
                    +3
                    Quote: perepilka
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    And bruised a lot?
                    Mustache in moderation, there is not to infringe the main thing, but to cause damage

                    I purchased nubuck with 7th i-core for pokatushki. Even registered. And then he asked himself, "Is it too late to drive on tanks?"
                    1. family tree
                      family tree 9 February 2014 00: 43
                      +4
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      "Is it not too late to drive on tanks?"

                      Tanchiki is just a nice addition, you can consider it from all sides, if it is of course laughing
                      And so, this is a counter-strike, only the emphasis is more on thinking about their actions, and not on the reaction request , not fig me and younger than some, 51 years old laughing
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 07
                        +4
                        Quote: perepilka
                        not fig me and younger than some, 51 years old

                        Yah ? fellow
                        Well, I'm a couple of years older ... laughing
                      2. Day 11
                        Day 11 9 February 2014 01: 11
                        +3
                        My respect!!!
                      3. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 14
                        +2
                        Quote: Den 11
                        My respect!!!

                        Thank you, Denis.
                    2. family tree
                      family tree 9 February 2014 01: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      Yah ? fellow
                      Well, I'm a couple of years older ... laughing

                      Well, I say, not figs and younger drinks laughing
                      Quote: Den 11
                      My respect!!!

                      Thanks Dan drinks
    7. family tree
      family tree 8 February 2014 23: 30
      +4
      Guderian, in general about the T-34, issued two opposing opinions within a month.
      The beginning of October 1941:
      “... the Soviet T-34 tank is a typical example of backward Bolshevik technology. This tank can not be compared with the best examples of our tanks, made by the faithful sons of the Reich and have repeatedly proved their advantage ... "

      The end of October 1941:
      “I made a report on this situation, which is new to us, and sent it to the army group. In understandable terms, I described the clear advantage of the T-34 over our Pz.IV and brought the appropriate conclusions that should affect our future tank construction ... "

      And this is the "mumuars" "Tanks, forward"
      ... In the East, the Russians for a long time had few tanks, and their radio equipment was unsatisfactory. However, a few months after the outbreak of the war, the Russians had the T-34 tank, which significantly surpassed German tanks with its armor protection, weapons and cross-country ability. At first, only the 88-mm anti-aircraft gun and the 105-mm field gun could fight with him.
      ... almost no terrain inaccessible to tanks. First of all, this applies to Russian tanks, which had extremely high cross-country ability.
  • Gladiatir-zlo
    Gladiatir-zlo 8 February 2014 22: 59
    +2
    Just the causes of the tank defeat, disassembled and decomposed, briefly touch on: Planning, structures, support, training tank formations, the Strategy for the use of tank formations, communications, rear support, interaction with other branches of the armed forces. While there were many tanks they were driven by the crowd, when they became fewer, and there were no new ones to take from, so they immediately turned on their heads. Then the results appeared.
  • _CAMOBAP_
    _CAMOBAP_ 9 February 2014 19: 44
    0
    Quote: bistrov.
    Still, no one has yet explained so: -How did it happen that in the first two months of the war almost 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed or captured?
    -the war has already been scheduled for the day, there is a "sea" of information, both from direct participants and various studies, etc. So don't be lazy, read, study and - most importantly - don't forget common sense. And then they read some of the salted rezunov ...
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 19: 52
      +1
      Corned beef in the furnace! Do you consider Rezun a liar? Yes, a traitor, etc. But NOBODY could catch him on his enemies! NOBODY! He simply deftly adapted these facts to his theory
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 9 February 2014 20: 13
        0
        When the arguments end, insults are used. Have you read "AntiSuvorov"? Of course, smart people will understand what is what, but youngsters can eat this guano!
  • Shogun23
    Shogun23 8 February 2014 09: 35
    +10
    After the appearance of "cats with a thick skin", thanks to the high speed of the bullet, the anti-tank rifles were used by our troops for counter-sniper combat, especially against sniper nests protected by armor plates. So these were the predecessors of the current "Burglars" and "Barrets"
    1. Kubanets
      Kubanets 8 February 2014 13: 09
      +8
      An episode from the book of the German tanker O Karius "Tigers in the Mud" in the spring of 44 is noteworthy. Literally, while advancing to the Russian positions, they came under fire from the PTR. The Russians had smart guys. They beat almost all the optics of the vehicle.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 8 February 2014 13: 16
        +2
        That's what I'm talking about! Only with the Teutons will we be able to establish a new world order in Europe !!! Do you know how the pact of surrender was signed? When the frogs kicked something there --- "... Did you also defeat US ?. .. "
        1. smile
          smile 8 February 2014 15: 22
          +2
          Day 11
          Wow, Dan, I haven’t seen your letters for a long time. :)))
          In principle, I agree that if we were friends with the Germans, then we would all be better. But with the Nazis it was simply impossible. We were then antagonistic.

          I don’t know whether they are close to us; I spoke little with the Germans. But the fact that we are the most warrior warriors is a fact. And together we would be able to put anyone on cancer. :)))

          And I heard about the story told by you in a slightly different way - they say that when Keitel entered the hall, where he signed the surrender and saw the French representative there, he muttered under his breath, but quite loudly - what, did these ones defeat us too? :)))
          I don’t know if this is true or a bike, but I would like it to be true. :)))
          1. Roman 1977
            Roman 1977 8 February 2014 23: 49
            +3
            "Victory" of the French, or rather the French women over the Germans:
            During his stay in occupied Paris, a corporal of the German Wehrmacht by the name of Schmitz, who had good artistic abilities, did not waste his free time in vain and was engaged in writing watercolors, so to speak from living nature. The main theme of his drawings was the image of French girls and German military personnel. Somehow, the work of the German corporal Schmitz caught the eye of the owners of the Paris publishing house "Europa", who admired them and acquired 6 of their favorite images. The result of this acquisition was the release of a set of large postcards (15 x 20 cm), which were then offered to all German soldiers serving in France at a price of 1 Reichsmark or 20 French francs per set. They say that at one time such postcards were in good demand, but so far they have almost never reached.

            O la la!

            What a cheater!

            I don’t understand

            Zero size!

            Passionate parting

            Farewell kiss on the Eastern Front ...
            taken:
            http://tipolog.livejournal.com/tag/Франция
            1. family tree
              family tree 9 February 2014 00: 14
              +4
              Quote: Novel 1977
              "Victory" of the French, or rather the French women over the Germans:

              For this "victory", they later, in 45, did not pay so little, when, waking up from the fascist occupation and general collaboration, the country began to look for those responsible for its shame.
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 00: 39
                +9
                Quote: perepilka
                the country began to search for those guilty of its shame.

                The gallant guardians played on women. Looks like all the muzhuki enrolled in the SS "Wallon" division and moved to the Eastern Front. laughing
                1. family tree
                  family tree 9 February 2014 00: 51
                  +6
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  Looks like all the muzhuki enrolled in the SS "Walloon" division

                  Yes, not all, there was still "Charlemagne", on the other hand, and "Free France" must also be remembered, and only "Normandie-Niemen", in general, it is a sin to forget

                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 9 February 2014 00: 56
                    0
                    U-how! In the course that Aloizych sawed Storage in half? Vichy and Petenovtsy-separate topic --- there will be interest --- discuss
                  2. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 05
                    +4
                    Quote: perepilka
                    Yes, not all, yet "Charlemagne" was

                    So I'm talking about them.
                    One story with taking Paris what is worth ...
                    Even Jodl, at the signing of the surrender, jumped when he saw who had lost the war to Germany.
                    1. Day 11
                      Day 11 9 February 2014 01: 15
                      +1
                      Only not Yodel, but still POSORISCHE! This is a warrior nation (was). At the genetic level, it remained them (I really hope!)
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: Den 11
                        Just not Yodel

                        WHO ???
                      2. Day 11
                        Day 11 9 February 2014 01: 30
                        +1
                        He is the most. Sorry friend-beguiled with Halder
                      3. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 33
                        +2
                        Quote: Den 11
                        He is the most. Sorry friend-beguiled with Halder

                        Denis, you're out of shape today wassat
                        How healthy are you? bully
                      4. Day 11
                        Day 11 9 February 2014 01: 39
                        0
                        The first day of the vacation --- do the conclusion yourself. The wife growls is her problem — who feeds the family? Who slams like a collective farm horse? And I, bt, still raise a house
                      5. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 43
                        +4
                        Quote: Den 11
                        wife growls, this is her problem, who feeds the family? who slams like a collective farm horse?

                        Good luck In all areas of life and work!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Cossack23
    Cossack23 9 February 2014 15: 56
    +1
    I have a German wife, with such an alliance with the Germans, you can also turn the mountains back, they very disciplined
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 03
      0
      Well, that’s it, you yourself wrote yourself a Nazi! (Irony).
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 8 February 2014 18: 19
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    . Did you also defeat US? ... "

    Yes it was.
  • vova1973
    vova1973 8 February 2014 14: 55
    0
    Have you ever seen a live tank that travels not along a flat road, but across a field? here and with SVD on optics you will not get. They just shot at the tanks from everything.
    1. smile
      smile 8 February 2014 16: 01
      +1
      vova1973
      The Germans fired from short stops. Could catch, especially since the fire was massive.
      And Carius, when tryndel, tryndel in his favor, and not ours. For example, he told how twice in one battle he destroyed Is 2 regiment (and once he shot more Isov than in the state regiment), attacking them on Tiger 1 alone, in half an hour. :))) And for these exploits, he won awards. Search adnaka. We have never lost a whole regiment of Isov in one battle.
      In general, he is clearly a warrior and skillfully writes. This phrase belongs to him - five Russian tanks are more dangerous than twenty American :))) If he hadn’t lied, he had no price. :)))
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 8 February 2014 21: 14
    +2
    Quote: Shogun23
    After the appearance of "cats with a thick skin", thanks to the high speed of the bullet, the anti-tank rifles were used by our troops for counter-sniper combat, especially against sniper nests protected by armor plates

    Until the end of the war, the PTR remained practically the only anti-tank weapon among the cavalrymen. In August 1943, in the Battle of Oryol near Karachev, they shot down Panthers from the PTR.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 8 February 2014 21: 22
      0
      Ilyich-minus mine. Explain to us how the 14,5 mm pierced the bochin of the T-5! This is not a trick question! Can you, old man, link? (You didn't hammer that "Panther" there yourself?). Read the wiki-skoko there armor? You are a smart man, but you fall for all sorts of bullshit
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 8 February 2014 21: 31
        +4
        Quote: Den 11
        Ilyich minus mine.

        I thought Denis ... laughing
        I am referring to A. Isaev's book "10 Myths about the Second World War", a chapter on Soviet cavalrymen. There is also a photo of the wounded Panther.
        But where did the bullet (to the question of armor - hap-hop?) The armor-piercers knew - the instruction was put up right here, for discussion.
        But if Isaev is not your authority .... fellow
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 8 February 2014 23: 08
    -4
    Even the Pz-IV with 50 mm forehead did not spit on ATGMs with 23 mm breaking through on 100 m.
    1. family tree
      family tree 8 February 2014 23: 51
      +8
      Quote: EvilLion
      Even the Pz-IV with 50 mm forehead did not spit on ATGMs with 23 mm breaking through on 100 m.

      Finally, there are no such ATGMs. ATGM, this is an anti-tank guided missile, with all the ensuing consequences laughing
      As for the PTRD and PTRS, the charter did not prohibit shooting at the harp and on board, at the viewing slots request
  • Iskander1369
    Iskander1369 8 February 2014 10: 04
    +4
    Quote: bistrov.
    Still, no one has yet explained so: -How did it happen that in the first two months of the war almost 20 thousand Soviet tanks were destroyed or captured?

    Read Yuri Mukhin. There you will find an explanation - extremely harsh, but honest. The book seems to be called "The Betrayal of the Generals."
  • Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 8 February 2014 10: 05
    +7
    It seems to me that this weapon has not exhausted its resource.
    1. Corsair
      Corsair 8 February 2014 11: 35
      +4
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      It seems to me that this weapon has not exhausted its resource.
      Only with a superficial comparison, the ammunition is not the same ...
  • badger1974
    badger1974 8 February 2014 11: 51
    +3
    at the expense of the "thick-skinned cats" of the Wehrmacht, the PTR schiki learned to "gusse" the technique, the huge frontal area of ​​tigers and panthers fit well in the sight, by inertia the tank turned sideways, this is where the shooting range began, it was more difficult with the T-4 shielded modifications, but nevertheless, the effect of the anti-tank missile system did not diminish by the end of the war, as they correctly noted, having mastered other combat directions
  • parus2nik
    parus2nik 8 February 2014 11: 59
    +5
    Marshal G.I. Kulik:
    When I familiarized myself with the plan for the production of artillery guns, I drew attention to the fact that none of the factories produced 45-mm anti-tank and 76-mm regimental and division guns.
    - Vasily Mikhailovich, how to explain this situation? I asked Ryabikov.
    “The production of these guns has been discontinued, Dmitry Fedorovich,” he answered.
    - Почему?
    - Such is the demand of the customer - the main artillery department of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, and in particular its chief Marshal Kulik.
    - What motivated this demand?
    - The need to replace these guns with new ones, which have greater armor penetration due to the tendency to strengthen the armor protection of German tanks.
    - What is your opinion on this issue?
    - Apparently, there is a reason for this, Dmitry Fedorovich. But it was impossible to discontinue these tools without mastering the production of new ones. And this is not only my opinion ...
    Subsequent events confirmed the correctness of this point of view. In essence, we had to rectify the situation already in the conditions of the outbreak of war.
    D.F. Ustinov “In the name of victory”


    “Great harm in preparing the army for the war was brought by the well-known conclusions made after the Spanish war. Under the influence of figures such as Kulik who exalted after the Spanish war, views on the use of tank troops were revised, the existing large mechanized formations were liquidated - the theory came into play that they were not needed, that tanks were needed only to support the infantry. ”
    A. M. Vasilevsky


    “My work as the first deputy chief of the GAU was not easy, it required a lot of attention and caution. G.I. Kulik was a man of little organization, who thought much of himself, who considered all his actions infallible. It was often difficult to understand what he wants, what he wants. He considered the best method of his work to keep his subordinates at bay. His favorite saying when setting tasks and instructions was: “Prison or Order”. In the morning he usually called a lot of performers, set tasks very vaguely and, threateningly asking “understand?”, Ordered him to leave the office. Everyone who received the tasks usually came to me and asked for clarifications and directions. ”
    N. N. Voronov "In the service of the military"
  • svp67
    svp67 8 February 2014 12: 48
    +6
    Prewar mistake
    No mistake. PTR is the ersatz of the Anti-Tank Cannon (PTO) and in the pre-war years they focused on the development and production of anti-tank guns ... PTR is a necessary measure, and unfortunately not as effective as we would like. Our fighters did not like them, since the fighter who used it became the number one target, for all types of weapons, at minimum distances, that is, in the zone of continuous and guaranteed defeat, and maneuvering with the PTR, because of its size, is still that task, so that the PTR, nicknamed "fishing rod", was thrown first when the situation became very "hot". And therefore, when our industry was able to establish the mass production of normal VET, the PTR quickly disappeared from almost nothing ...
    1. badger1974
      badger1974 8 February 2014 13: 53
      +2
      partly this is so, the equipment of the Red Army with good anti-tank equipment was pushed aside by the anti-tank weapons, but one cannot be silent about the fact that there were scanty numbers of "big cats" in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS units, the basis, as before, was the Maybach 4 in large modifications and the tank destroyer based on the equipment occupied territories, so there was more than enough work for the anti-tank missile systems, the only drawback for the anti-tank missile system was the effective range compared to the guns, for the second half of the Second World War it was already unacceptable due to the offensive nature of the Red Army's fighting, even the anti-tank missile system is a defense weapon, this was also noted by our during the Winter Company of 1940, when Suomi from 20 mm Lahti simply turned the T-26 and BT into a sieve from ambushes
    2. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 8 February 2014 15: 11
      +2
      And if you consider that they could effectively deal with tanks from only 150 meters away (the site had an article with the memories of an armor-piercing gun) and even a small armored effect of a bullet, then there’s nothing to really love.
  • wanderer
    wanderer 8 February 2014 12: 56
    +5
    These are the anti-tank manuals in the form of leaflets.
  • wanderer
    wanderer 8 February 2014 12: 57
    0
    And here's another
  • wanderer
    wanderer 8 February 2014 12: 58
    +5
    missed the previous
  • Legate
    Legate 8 February 2014 13: 38
    +5
    Quote: invisible
    The error cost us dearly, but with a quick orientation.
    And how many feats Soviet armor-piercers performed !!!
    In skillful hands - a very formidable weapon!

    The conclusion suggests itself that the feat is the result of someone's mistake.
    1. svp67
      svp67 8 February 2014 13: 42
      +3
      Quote: Legate
      The conclusion suggests itself that the feat is the result of someone's mistake.
      as well as slackness, sloppiness, disorder and outright betrayal, and this is 98%, and by the way, as always ..
  • Garik1971
    Garik1971 8 February 2014 14: 26
    +3
    Quote: Vovka Levka
    Quote: Den 11
    About the same. The enemy "will not pass"

    But at what price, and the price was terrible.

    Now, if you had passed, then it would have become SCARY!
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 8 February 2014 14: 44
      +4
      My deepest opinion --- even if they would have taken Moscow --- one hell, they would have lost !!! You can’t do that with the Slavs! It seemed, it would be --- YOU are using what the fuck (German)? Such a fucking Russian blood flowing in me !!! And my grandfather was not in vain pouring his blood for the Socialist Motherland!
      1. Landwarrior
        Landwarrior 10 February 2014 10: 12
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        even if they would have taken Moscow --- one hell, they would have lost !!!

        Moreover, already in Moscow laughing What is the fighting in the city has clearly shown Stalingrad (formidable 1994-95 I do not take).
        Although in 1941 Moscow did not represent such a megalopolis which there is now, but to fight in the maze of city streets, when you absolutely do not know what awaits you around the next turn ... It is impossible to keep air reconnaissance in the air constantly, and to send reconnaissance groups constantly - is also a troublesome business ... In general, the Wehrmacht, at least its GA "Center", would have folded hundreds very quickly.
        1. bairat
          bairat 10 February 2014 19: 51
          0
          Quote: Landwarrior
          Moreover, already in Moscow. What is the fighting in the city was clearly shown by Stalingrad

          Moscow did not have a water obstacle behind it that did not allow it to surround the city, so in the conditions of the 41st year everything would have turned out to be much sadder.
          1. Landwarrior
            Landwarrior 11 February 2014 09: 55
            +1
            bairat , I brought Stalingrad not because of "Uranus", but as an example of battles in the village. Hannibal at Cannes somehow managed without a water obstacle wink (well, except that the flank covered them lol )
            Fighting in the city, especially if it is old construction, with narrow streets is a pleasure. If he did not surrender voluntarily, then he will have to "pick out" the defenders from under each stone laughing
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 8 February 2014 14: 52
    0
    With anti-tank rifles - a powerful and reliable weapon in the capable hands of a tank destroyer, an overlay was originally issued, but more on that below.


    GO AWAY!!! Do not know the question, do not write nonsense. Even 300 ATRs in a rifle division in 1942 had no effect on the fight against tanks. I have no particular doubts that instead of trying to produce weapons with zero combat value, it was better to try to increase the production of "forty-fives" by at least 1%. Because 1 45 mm cannon is an order of magnitude more useful than an entire company of anti-tank rifles.
    1. badger1974
      badger1974 8 February 2014 20: 08
      +3
      in a short time, a normal firearm would not work, one magpie required service and traction, the delivery of ammunition was complicated, the unmasking during the first shot was obvious, the change of position was even more difficult, it was the PTR in the defensive measures that the doctor ordered (remember in Finland how our BT and T were burning -26 from Lahti from ambushes), the gasoline engines of the Germans burned like candles, and then they buzzed so that the German crews had to leave the car, the immobilized tank is a target,
      rather, it’s you who have little control
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 8 February 2014 20: 24
        -2
        The question is off-topic --- Fuck you need all this ??? Isn’t it better to bend all of Europe with us? Brothers are YOU to us !!!
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 8 February 2014 23: 16
        0
        I’ll make you happy, but even stopping the T-26 from PTR will be very difficult, most likely, just punch holes without damage to equipment and crew. It is extremely difficult to track a tank in real combat, unlike WoT, and a tiny PTR bullet will simply not destroy a caterpillar. 45 mm is removed from the machine and disguised no worse than PTR, but its capabilities are much wider, not only against tanks.
        IMHO from PTR in those conditions, it would be useful only if you take the heels of the calculations more firmly on the battalion, put them in the bushes and until the enemy walks by, so that they substitute the side, not a shot. Then the effect will be, there is a chance that they will be thrown on board the crit. But this is an extreme case, and people from the battle most of the time off. However, they can be said to be turned off, since they do not pierce anyone in the forehead.
        1. badger1974
          badger1974 9 February 2014 00: 19
          +2
          Well, it’s not worth me to rejoice with this fact (all the same, my grandfathers were in them), but they shot quite a lot, the losses in the tanks of the T-26 modifications were not covered by the Red Army, and the loss of the QMS from the destroyed tracks did not fit into any framework , T-28 somehow waved it off, but it was not an option
          in WoT, fighters with anti-tank guns do not run, and as a rule they did not succeed in removing the 45 mm gun from the machine because of its destruction
          but about "if you take the heels of the calculations stronger for the battalion, put them in the bushes and until the enemies go past, so that the board is substituted, not a shot." - this is what I'm talking about, a weapon of defense
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 9 February 2014 20: 48
            +2
            Quote: badger1974
            Losses in tanks of modifications T-26 were bloodlessly not to crawl the Red Army

            The USSR was losing tanks because the USSR had them, the Finns could not lose what they didn’t have - I’m figurative.
            1. badger1974
              badger1974 10 February 2014 00: 30
              +1
              during combat security, they could not have lost at all, unfortunately they understood late
          2. Landwarrior
            Landwarrior 10 February 2014 10: 18
            0
            Quote: badger1974
            the Finns shot quite a lot, the losses in the tanks of the T-26 modifications were not covered by the Red Army,

            Here, in the first place, the theater itself is to blame. Poor infrastructure tied the offensive to the roads. and if you know where the enemy will ambush it is much easier to arrange. hi
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. kotvov
          kotvov 9 February 2014 20: 41
          +2
          you obviously outplayed everything in your life. imagine a “tiny” bullet just extinguishes, not the caterpillar but the fingers of the caterpillars. if you remove the 45th carriage from the carriage it does not become combat ready. it would be interesting to look at you in the steppe, , plant in the bushes, any even potentially dangerous shelter is processed by fire. so I'm sorry, you're not saying that.
  • builder
    builder 8 February 2014 15: 27
    +4
    "- So if you figure it out, our German PTRs did not surpass them in anything. And they did them because in the summer of XNUMX, we abandoned all our guns, while we scrambled from the border. So our women had to, but the old men and boys we hurriedly had guns with long barrel, which we called "fishing rods", to master. They are simpler and cheaper than guns, but the German anti-tank rifles were much worse than ours, as long as they did not succeed in the multiply charged "faustpatron". So it turns out that all your fools " strawberry "that are trying to decide which piece of iron is better than which. Truly they say that grief is from the mind. Excessive. I would add that from the mind, multiplied by idleness."
    -Shot so after the tenth, I even began to pray to myself so that at least one would catch fire, and they would be like talking. What is it over there? But then they chopped us under the nut. And the kaput would come to the whole battalion if we were to shoot. But then the help came, which they were waiting for. They threw the fritz back to the original.
    "....- And then their tanks were poured over us. A little. Six of them in total. One piece for the" angler "- nonsense! We'll handle it! We drive with our" fishing rods ", choosing the moment for the shot. The targets were divided as agreed. The left one chose Vitka-Tatar, my neighbor - Romka-Perm, I got the right one by lot. Three more tanks to the share of Akimov's armor-piercers. Yes! Just one tank per gun and there was something. And not some "tigers", but ordinary T-3 and "Prague". Your "experts" will laugh, come on! In their opinion, we should have pierced the T-3 through and through from any distance from the first shot. And we also thought so at first. We shot from three hundred, as taught of us, and after each shot they were sure that the tank was kaput, and he walked as he walked and did not know what was kaput to him, only sweeping the terrain with machine guns.

    -Shot so after the tenth, I even began to pray to myself so that at least one would catch fire, and they would be like talking. What is it over there? But then they chopped us under the nut. And the kaput would come to the whole battalion if we were to shoot. But then the help came, which they were waiting for. They threw the fritz back to the original.

    -How many tanks did we burn theirs, you ask? They burned one. Few? Yes, then he seemed for happiness. He received his first "Courage" for him. Only did I knock him out? Who knows now, maybe I. I shot at him too. Only there was no one to receive a medal except me. All other armor-piercers are either killed or seriously wounded. This is how my first fight went. And a battalion to re-form. And you say - PTR! ... "Mikhail Svirin. Angler. Memories of an armor piercer.
    http://alternathistory.org.ua/mikhail-svirin-udilshchik-vospominaniya-broneboish
    chika
  • Aleksys2
    Aleksys2 8 February 2014 17: 41
    +1
    The fact was that Marshal G.I. Kulik, who was then the head of the Main Artillery Directorate, was confident that Germany was armed with tanks equipped with powerful anti-ballistic armor. As a result of this, the marshal managed to convince Stalin not to start production of anti-tank rifles and even to stop production of light 45-76 mm cannons of the caliber “as unnecessary”. From the very first days of World War II it became clear that German tanks possessed rather weak armor, but there was simply nothing to pierce it with.

    In fairness:
    By the spring of 1940, the Soviet military leadership received intelligence information on the development of heavily armored tanks in Germany (The first work on the creation of the Tiger tank began in 1937. At that time, the Wehrmacht had no heavy breakthrough tanks similar to the Soviet T-35 or the French Char B1, on the other hand, in the planned military doctrine (tested later in Poland and France), heavy sedentary vehicles had practically no place, so the military’s requirements for such a tank were However, Erwin Aders, one of Henschel’s leading designers, began designing the 30-ton “Durchbruchwagen.” During 1939 — 1941, Henschel built two prototypes, known under the designations DW1 and DW2. The first of the prototypes was without a tower, the second was installed a tower from the serial PzKpfw IV. The thickness of the armor protection of the prototypes did not exceed 50 mm.). This information, given the vulnerability of tanks with light armor of small-caliber anti-tank guns revealed during the Spanish Civil War in Spain (which led to the initiation of work on the creation of T-34 and KV tanks in the USSR), looked believable. At the same time, tests were carried out by shelling the body of the German tank Pz.III, captured by Soviet troops during the Polish 1939 campaign of the year. Tests have shown that the armor of this tank, despite its relatively small thickness, is highly resistant, and at medium and large distances the shells of the most common 45-mm anti-tank guns in the Red Army penetrate it with difficulty. In addition, after the capture of France by the trophies of German troops, hundreds of well-armored French tanks became. As a result, the Soviet military leadership decided to create powerful anti-tank guns with high armor penetration. The design bureau of the Gorky Plant No. 92, led by V. G. Grabin, was involved in these works, among others.
    During the leadership of Kulik, the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army developed and / or adopted the following weapons:
    7,62-mm self-loading rifle SVT-40
    7,62-mm machine gun DS-39
    12,7-mm heavy machine gun DShK
    25-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun mod.1939 g. (72-K)
    37-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun mod.1939 g. (61-K)
    57-mm anti-tank gun mod.1940 g. (ZIS-2)
    76-mm divisional gun arr. 1939 g. (SPM)
    76-mm anti-aircraft gun arr. 1938 g.
    76 mm mountain gun mod. 1938
    76-mm tank gun of the 1938 model of the year (L-10)
    76-mm tank gun sample 1938 / 39 years (L-11)
    76-mm tank gun of the 1939 model of the year (Ф-32)
    76-mm tank gun of the 1940 model of the year (Ф-34)
    76-mm casemate gun arr. 1940 g. (L-17)
    85-mm anti-aircraft gun arr. 1938 g. (52-K)
    107-mm divisional gun of the 1940 model of the year (M-60)
    122-mm howitzer model 1938 of the year (M-30)
    152-mm howitzer model 1938 of the year (M-10)
    210-mm gun of the 1939 model of the year (Br-17)
    280-mm mortar 1939 model year (Br-5)
    50-mm company mortars mortar 1938 and 1940 g.
    82-mm battalion mortar arr. 1937 g.
    107-mm mountain pack mortar Sample 1938
    120-mm regimental mortar arr. 1938 g.
    jet mortars BM-13 (Katyusha)
    1. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 8 February 2014 17: 47
      +1
      45-mm anti-tank gun mod. 1937 of the year (forty-five, “Farewell, Motherland” GRAU Index - 52-П-243-ПП-1) - Soviet semi-automatic anti-tank gun of the caliber 45 mm. It was used at the first stage of World War II, but due to insufficient armor penetration it was replaced in 1942 with a more powerful M-42 gun of the same caliber. Finally gun arr. 1937 of the year was discontinued in 1943; for 1937-43 USSR industry made 37354 of such tools.
      As of 22 on June 1941, the Red Army was armed with 16 621 units. 45-mm guns.
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 8 February 2014 18: 03
    -1
    The trunk is long - life is short (military folklore). A powerful shot, at a low height from which the shot is fired, raised clouds of dust or snow, depending on the time of year. And about PTP: this is not a jamb of Kulik, but Golikova with Beria.
    1. samoletil18
      samoletil18 9 February 2014 15: 21
      +1
      The minuscule would be in the trench against the German tanks, it is a pity there is no time machine. Armor-piercers are not just heroes, they perfectly understood what awaits them. But they took up their PTR and went to defend their homeland.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 8 February 2014 18: 55
    +1
    Will you tryndet here ... The Slavs are no worse than the Teutons! How to increase? --- Yes HZ! You’ll be smart, you’ll figure it out. This, by the way, is from the open
    1. badger1974
      badger1974 8 February 2014 20: 33
      0
      but what are the overlays of the words of a blue ballpoint pen? Of course the document is interesting, even write with a simple pencil preserved, the provision, not the old time of the hour, of the Red Army Startsev?
  • Leshka
    Leshka 8 February 2014 19: 03
    -1
    if ptr would be at the night stage of the war, things could be better
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 8 February 2014 19: 08
      +1
      If the "Tigers" (T-6) were, would the Hans have at 41 (not 42) --- how would it all turn out ??? 14,5mm-laugh for the Tiger
      1. badger1974
        badger1974 8 February 2014 20: 22
        0
        tigers and panthers could not be in the 6st, for one simple reason, the T-5 and T-14.5 were born due to the prevailing circumstances on the Eastern Front, the blitz-krieg did not provide for protracted and defensive measures, everything had to be within the framework of "tanks "Guderian is coming, and at the expense of laughter for the Tiger XNUMX, -when you, sitting in the Tiger, lost the gusli on the battlefield, then I would look at you how you would correct the situation under aimed fire
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 8 February 2014 20: 29
          -2
          It’s not funny for yourself? Ask Kars --- it’s done elementarily
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 8 February 2014 23: 20
          0
          Don’t tell the geese from PTR, it rarely gets there, it’s mostly flying into the tower, and it won’t break the 14.5 harp.
          1. badger1974
            badger1974 9 February 2014 00: 36
            +1
            Yes, why are they laughing, the hodovka of the "fat cats" caused a slight panic in German furs, and if it was supplemented by thirty-two kJ in an area of ​​14.5 mm caterpillar, then a break is inevitable, this is a fact, and to get there, imagine a 120cm by 120cm shield (this the height and width of the frontal visibility of the tiger's harp), from a distance of 300 meters it will not be difficult to hit with an open sight
  • Massik
    Massik 8 February 2014 19: 58
    +2
    But who argues comrades, a mine on his back and forth under the enemy caterpillar, and leave the PTR in the trenches ... How many machine-gun points, the bunker embrasure were destroyed and crammed from an anti-tank rifle ...
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 8 February 2014 23: 21
      +1
      When compared with those destroyed from normal guns, there is hardly more than 0.01%.
  • konvalval
    konvalval 8 February 2014 21: 25
    +2
    Glory to the armored soldiers of the Great Patriotic War!
    1. konvalval
      konvalval 8 February 2014 21: 42
      0
      I think the fascist suffered from the PTR minus.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 8 February 2014 21: 28
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    Ilyich-minus mine. Explain to me how the 14,5 mm pierced the T-5 bochin! This is not a trick question! Can you, old man, a link? (You didn’t yourself hammer that "Panther" there?) armor? you are a smart man, but you fall for all sorts of bullshit
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 8 February 2014 21: 51
      +5
      Quote: Den 11
      ! This is not a trick question! Can you, old man, have a link? (You didn't yourself hammer that "Panther" there?).

      So ... For "complete happiness" ... laughing
      My father said that the only "Panther" (out of eight wrecked tanks) was knocked out by his ZiS-3 crew in the spring of 1945 in Germany (of course, I don’t remember the name of the city), when I had to hit with armor-piercing through the frame of the house with direct fire. Otherwise, it did not work - one 34 was already on fire, set on fire by this "Panther", while trying to turn the corner and go to the street occupied by the Germans.
      hi
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 8 February 2014 22: 00
        +1
        And my grandfather (on the paternal side) got out 2nd Shock (thanks to Meretskov, I will NEVER forgive this "fake" general! No need to explain anything? And the second fought for Berlin! I NEVER was a Nazi!
    2. badger1974
      badger1974 9 February 2014 01: 01
      -1
      the panther is taken to the side from 14.5 at a distance of 100 m, even its 40 mm even the side armor can be thicker, judge for yourself - the armor is homogeneous, put it on an area of ​​14.5 mm 32 kJ or 65 kgf - this is convenient and the questions will disappear
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 9 February 2014 01: 08
        +1
        40mm-14,5 --- WON'T !!! !!! Unless point blank, it’s not a fact! Do you imagine a homogeneous armor thickness 40mm?
        1. badger1974
          badger1974 9 February 2014 11: 37
          0
          of course I know, as well as here is a book in the attic "manual for metalworking" in which there are limits of strength of metals and their alloys, including high-strength steels, and besides, there are test grids, they were obtained at test sites, the only question is distance and angle the meeting of armor and BS, and so following the grid from a hundred meters at an angle of 0 14.5 with the PTRD penetrates 50 mm of homogeneous armor (I emphasize the PTRD and not the automatic systems of the CPV type)
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 9 February 2014 11: 44
            +3
            Well, but what will it give us? Holes? Armor-piercing incendiary (and PTR-ONLY armor-piercing) there might have been an effect (and even if you get into the combat station. And so, pick it up, startle it, shoot it through the cracks and optics --- no more
            1. smersh70
              smersh70 9 February 2014 14: 51
              +1
              Quote: Den 11
              Well, but what will it give us? Holes? Armor-piercing incendiary (and PTR-ONLY armor-piercing) maybe there would be an effect (

              got ahead)) I just wanted to ask you the effect of this weapon)))) Well, he struck there and immediately the tank stops and blazes like in Soviet films. And the caliber for the tank is small)) what can it do .... .
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 9 February 2014 14: 55
                0
                Great friend! How yourself?
                1. smersh70
                  smersh70 9 February 2014 15: 16
                  +2
                  Quote: Den 11
                  Great friend! How yourself?
                  thanks bro drinks chilly)) rest)) and watch the Olympics, we wait when our win the gold medal wassat After all, they promised a half a lemon in euros))))))
                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 9 February 2014 15: 42
                    +1
                    And yours, in what discipline? Hockey, judging by the Canadian press, will be SUPER! They’re coming to us like a war! Canadians have inflated ... They are trying to prove to everyone that they are an independent country and the Yankees aren’t decree for them! It's ridiculous! still that will be
                  2. genisis
                    genisis 9 February 2014 19: 31
                    0
                    we are waiting when our win the gold medal


                    At the XXII Winter Olympic Games (2014), four athletes were included in the Azerbaijani team:

                    Patrick Brahner (downhill skiing)
                    22. Originally from Austria. He began to represent Azerbaijan from the 2010-2011 season. In February 2013, he took 37th place at the World Slalom Championships.
                    Gaia Bassani Antivari (skiing)
                    36 years. Originally from Italy. She represented Azerbaijan in 2010 at the Olympic Games in Vancouver: in the giant slalom she took 57th place, in the slalom she did not reach the finish line.
                    Alexey Sitnikov and Julia Zlobina (dancing on ice)
                    38 and 25 years old respectively. Originally from Russia. They made their debut in the Azerbaijani national figure skating team in 2010, becoming the winners of the Estonian open championship. In December 2013, they won a silver medal at the Winter Universiade in Italian Trento.

                    laughing laughing laughing
                    Is that why Azerbaijanis always do this ????
                    Why do others always do everything for them?
                    And the strangest thing is why athletes have not yet been renamed oglu, how is everything renamed in this country?!?!
                    1. alone
                      alone 9 February 2014 19: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: genisis
                      Is that why Azerbaijanis always do this ????
                      Why do others always do everything for them?

                      Personally, I’ll put in all your comments + when the Armenian takes the medal of the Winter Olympics. Have you agreed?))) And raise the flag of Armenia
                    2. smersh70
                      smersh70 10 February 2014 00: 20
                      0
                      Quote: genisis
                      Is that why Azerbaijanis always do this ????
                      . you always remind me of an antisniper from the movie Sniper laughing always follow us, track and put your awesome komenty bully and in the end, like in a movie, you get your bullet in the eye wassat laughing
            2. badger1974
              badger1974 9 February 2014 20: 16
              -1
              something you forgot to mention, this is a gas engine, and how much gas did Panther take? at least 200 liters, not counting the extra fuel in the fenders, and so, judging by my practice, I went out into the darkness dousing to extinguish cars with gas and gas, and neither once in 20 years on diesel engines, with the exception of tankers, but the reason for the fire was that it was gasoline in the tanks, all the same it is more difficult for a solarium to set fire than gasoline is a fact. I am the one who is pushing this, and the fact that Art is messing up and PTR is not argued by anyone, the other thing is that there is now and what can be done about it, PTR in the buildings was what was needed
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 20: 44
                +3
                Quote: badger1974
                I went out into the darkness for extinguishing cars with gas and gas, and not once in 20 years on diesel engines, with the exception of tankers, but the reason for the fires was that it was gasoline in the tanks, but it’s more difficult for a solarium to set fire than gasoline is a fact. it’s me who is driving this

                I will refer to the already mentioned book by A. Isaev - it is quite sensibly painted there - why tanks with a diesel engine burned and exploded no worse than those with gasoline ...
                1. badger1974
                  badger1974 10 February 2014 00: 53
                  -1
                  quite in vain, gasoline is gasoline, so the Germans had an APS, it was not on thirty-fours, the combustion of the solarium proceeded sluggishly, unlike the Germans, as a rule, the APS was triggered while the crew left the car and not completely preventing a fire, this could happen without breakdown of enemy resistance, usually it worked in the heat, so many T-5s were in "eternal" repair
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 01: 19
                    +2
                    Quote: badger1974
                    pretty in vain

                    I think that Kars, as a specialist, could give an opinion ...
                    But I'm afraid that he was already tired of writing the same thing - when I just showed up here a year ago, he was already in the "higher ranks".
                  2. family tree
                    family tree 10 February 2014 01: 42
                    +3
                    Quote: badger1974
                    pretty much in vain, gasoline is gasoline, therefore the APS stood on the Germans, on thirty fours it wasn’t

                    There was not, because there was no team, to develop and deliver
                    At the expense of sluggish. In solarium and gasoline, just the ignition temperature is different. Both the solarium and gasoline evaporate, and when pierced, the armor-piercing shell completely created a temperature sufficient to detonate the solarium vapor, and even more so the gasoline. Because in the battle on the T-34 tried to go refueling to the eyeballs. A large proportion of the T-34 was lost precisely because of the detonation of the fuel tanks, which were located on the sides.
                    To avoid detonation, we came up with different systems, the essence of which is to prevent oxygen from entering the fuel tanks, from the injection of inert gases to the removal of part of the exhaust gases into the tank.
                    The ambush with the solarium was also in the fact that it evaporates worse than gasoline and if it doesn’t burn, it will burn for a long time, hence burns and losses. request
                    1. badger1974
                      badger1974 10 February 2014 11: 27
                      0
                      here there is the most important issue of the topic, against thirty-four ATRs were not suitable, although the Germans developed them, therefore they were practically nonexistent in the Wehrmacht and it was fundamentally necessary to acquire a caliber higher than regular forty, and, on the contrary, from ATRs, a violation of the fuel system of German cars immediately led to fires with its partial extinguishing, of course, this is not destruction but failure (that is, maintainable), but for the first half of the Second World War, in the absence of more or less adequate anti-tank missile forces, it was effective to deter the enemy or completely stop the breakthrough
  • Day 11
    Day 11 8 February 2014 21: 31
    0
    What the fuck? My post to all!
  • Day 11
    Day 11 8 February 2014 21: 50
    0
    Kars, my friend, what do you think --- is it really possible to stop the T-5 from the PTR? You drag (whatever you say) in this thread
    1. Kars
      Kars 9 February 2014 01: 21
      +4
      Quote: Den 11
      What do you think --- is it really possible to stop the T-5 from the PTR?

      Yes really.
      Quote: Den 11
      40mm-14,5 --- WON'T !!! !!! Unless point blank, it’s not a fact! Do you imagine a homogeneous armor thickness 40mm?

      It is given even in TTX PTRS / D

      But you need a lot of luck, but that does not happen.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 01: 25
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        Quote: Den 11
        What do you think --- is it really possible to stop the T-5 from the PTR?
        Yes really.

        Hurray !!! Long live the Soviet court! ... laughing
        1. Cossack23
          Cossack23 9 February 2014 16: 17
          +1
          in my opinion, the battle is a combination of luck and bad luck, but as the old people who have gone through the war said, "BULLET OF FOOL" - and in these two words the whole combination.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 8 February 2014 23: 30
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    Is it really possible to stop the T-5 from PTR?

    "Two Panthers from PTR" http://warfiles.ru/show-43863-dve-pantery-iz-ptr.html
    Sixteen-year-old Soviet boy with PTRS against the prodigy. He is still alive if the article does not lie of course.
  • Snoop
    Snoop 8 February 2014 23: 46
    +5
    What mistake? Anti-tank guns were seen as weapons of the weak. Those countries for which anti-tank artillery and artillery in general can not afford. In the USSR, there was no such problem. Historians agree that on June 22, 1941, the Red Army had 117 guns and mortars of all calibers. True, in the western military districts there were 600 guns and mortars. In addition, all the PTR of the pre-war period had a penetration lower than that which the military wanted. And only the creation of BS-37 increased the armor penetration of our PTR to an acceptable level. Prior to this, the ammunition for the munitions were ineffective.
    And the development of PTRD and PTRS and their serial production is a necessary step, due to the large losses of the anti-tank artillery fleet. After all, look how artillery was enough, anti-tank missiles died out as anti-tank weapons.
  • zyablik.olga
    zyablik.olga 9 February 2014 01: 46
    +5
    Soviet infantry against tanks

    This topic deserves to become much more developed, and far from all types of anti-tank weapons of the Soviet infantry are mentioned.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ya.seliwerstov2013
    ya.seliwerstov2013 9 February 2014 13: 31
    +4
    But still, here are the results of the shooting.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 13: 38
      0
      By the way, the dude from "Edelweiss". Caucasus?
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 9 February 2014 14: 20
        +1
        This is a war in France.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 9 February 2014 14: 27
          +1
          How did you define it? Yes, the house in the background is European. Exactly, just now I saw the sign. You're right
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 9 February 2014 14: 35
            +2
            such huts only in Europe are found =====
            German soldiers at the wrecked medium tank Pz.Kpfw. IV. The French campaign of the Wehrmacht. Chateau-Ferry (Chauteau-Ferry), France, 1940.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 9 February 2014 14: 44
              0
              So he’s the same one! The crew is alive? 3 (three) hours of work --- and the battle! Fight the paddling ... Mmm ...! I’m not Natsik, but I envy these guys
            2. Cossack23
              Cossack23 9 February 2014 16: 20
              0
              notice two holes are pretty aimed
  • svp67
    svp67 9 February 2014 14: 00
    +1
    The instructor conducts a lesson on the use of the anti-tank gun PTRD-41, with the personnel of the Soviet unit,.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 15
    +1
    Guys, who started about the Volkssturm there? (Lost). The most interesting topic! Let's develop?
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 19
      +1
      The same song. What about the fucking weapons?
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 29
        0
        Still, to touch on the topic of Hitler’s divisions, how they torn the brave Yankees in the tail and mane (the Yankees themselves do not deny this)
  • Jager
    Jager 9 February 2014 16: 34
    +3
    I yell about the abandoned 20-30-50 thousand Soviet tanks and tens (hundreds and billions) of millions of officers and soldiers destroyed by the bloody Stalin, I consider the liberals to be bullshit.

    The cause of the defeat of the 41st year is not one. And not even two. This is a COMPLEX of technical, organizational, operational and strategic problems. But I think that in itself Soviet weapons were at least at the German level and were in no way inferior.
    Exercise for the brain - 5 thousand fully operational German tanks with trained crews focused on the tips of the main blows. And 17 thousand Soviet, who are in the parks, for repairs, without sensibly organized supplies and with somehow trained crews and "smeared" along the entire front line. Which is stronger?
    About the new KV and T-34, I generally keep quiet, there is a complete nightmare with the logistics and crews ("raw" undeveloped cars, cars with unusual fuel, without spare parts in warehouses, in principle).
    Moreover, without normal communication and control (try to "heap up" a tank corps, the units of which are at a distance of 200 km from each other and organize an offensive).

    BT-7, T-26, T-28 were in no way inferior to German cars of that time. At a distance of a direct shot, they all hit each other. I note that the strongest German car Pz IV Ausf. F was equivalent to the T-28 with the L-11 gun.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 45
      0
      Remind me, dear, how many Aloizych tanks (of all types) were on 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX?
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 9 February 2014 20: 17
        +3
        Quote: Den 11
        Remind me, dear, how many Aloizych tanks (of all types) were on 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX?

        There is simply a substitution of concepts, the strength of the army is expressed in tanks, but this is not right, the army is first infantry, then artillery, tanks are far from the most important type and type of troops.
        It is necessary to count people first, in 1942 the USSR was numerically inferior to the Third Reich with satellites TWO times.
        Then we consider artillery, and not even the number of barrels, but the quantity of ammunition produced, this parameter depends on industrial development, and here the USSR was inferior to the Third Reich with satellites FOUR times.
        How to win - the mind is incomprehensible. It turned out that a Russian is three times better than a European, and a Chinese is ten.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 20: 45
          +3
          Quote: Setrac
          How to win - the mind is incomprehensible. It turned out that a Russian is three times better than a European, and a Chinese is ten.

          My finger hurts, but I’m not stopping to ply.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 9 February 2014 16: 50
      0
      Quote: Jager
      The cause of the defeat of the 41st year is not one. And not even two.

      The numerical superiority of the Wehrmacht with its allies over the Red Army, and the numerical superiority in the main - in infantry and artillery, in humans - one and a half times, in the number of shells - MANY times. All the rest is the realization by the Germans of these advantages.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 9 February 2014 16: 53
        0
        Nothing like that! Can you give statistics?
        1. Jager
          Jager 9 February 2014 17: 24
          +1
          Statistics will not help here. It is necessary to see HOW and WHAT forces were directly in the directions of the main attacks.
          The number of German tanks is estimated at 4 thousand, but here's the bad luck - German and Czech vehicles are taken into account. Captured French and Polish cars are not included in this number. But the Germans used them, and actively. To 4 thousand add at least 1200 more tanks.
          We have taken into account ALL the tank trash, which was on June 22nd. I wonder what combat value does the T-37 have against the Pz 38?
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 9 February 2014 18: 47
            +1
            Quote: Jager
            generally ALL the tank trash that was on June 22

            what rubbish .... everything was normal, everything worked, TO-1 and TO-2 were carried out and how could it be rubbish if almost all of the industry of the USSR worked for military needs. You should read the decisions of the party and government. Yes, the NKVD would send all to the other world, and the heads of armored services, repair bases, fuel and lubricant services and so on.
            Recently, a peasant, a partisan commander in Belarus, was shown, so he said that in their area, 5 km long, serviceable tanks were abandoned by crews, all on the go, refueling. I must admit, there was a panic, that’s all they gave a sack-save who can.
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 February 2014 19: 14
              +1
              Quote: smersh70
              Yes, the NKVD would send everyone to the next world, and the chiefs of armored services,

              I recommend reading
              http://flibusta.net/b/237970
              1. smersh70
                smersh70 9 February 2014 22: 27
                +2
                Quote: Kars
                I recommend reading
                http://flibusta.net/b/237970
                well read, I can give you many more books that say the opposite. I trust most of the eyewitnesses who saw with my own eyes. There is a good website for 41 years, there are certificates from special departments, the cowardice of command is clearly shown, one example of Kulik is enough when he ran away in a woman’s dress near Minsk. By the way, in the south, too, he distinguished himself, until Stalin finished him off after the war. An example is the defense of the Caucasus — until Beria came with his generals and with his divisions, the army fled there only like that. They failed to see, but he managed to defend the Caucasus. As Stalin said, the cadres decide everything !!!!!!!
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 9 February 2014 22: 37
                  +1
                  The old man, completely and completely agree with you! They will continue to praise the butcher Zhukov, not noticing the really smart and knowledgeable marshals (and generals)
                2. Kars
                  Kars 9 February 2014 22: 38
                  +1
                  Quote: smersh70
                  well read, I can give you many more books that say the opposite. I trust eyewitnesses most of all

                  Witnesses who saw the percentage of defects in factories? Who know the condition with spare parts?
                  And do not expand on everything, I can talk about the tank troops, their condition, quality, etc. And about the fact that there were no mass shots.

                  for example
                  76-mm armor-piercing tracer.
                  Plant No. 73 NKB - Director Comrade KAKUNIN, had a mission for 21 000 shells for May and for June 47 000. The plant did not deliver a single shell in May and also disrupts the mission for June. At the same time, this plant is provided with metal and equipment, has experience in the production of 76-mm armor-piercing shells from the 1939 of the year and is in the most favorable conditions in terms of production,
                  1. smersh70
                    smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Witnesses who saw the percentage of marriage in factories?

                    Eyewitnesses saw how many of the 13000 tanks that were abandoned (from your data book) were destroyed, and how many celekhons that were left to the Germans. The marriage was already later, when due to lack of personnel, children and women cooked seams in factories.
                    By the way, at all times the western districts were the first to be completed, both then and after the war. in the 40th army, which entered Iran, in the fall of 41, there was not a SINGLE T-34, the mechanics collided with them when they were transferred to the Caucasus in 43. the planes consisted entirely of I-15 "Chaeks". So all combat-ready and newest tanks were in the Kiev and Belarussian Okrugs. And I generally keep quiet about the battles near Dubno. All tanks 2 mechanized corps lost during the transition, just ran out of fuel. That the generals did not know that the tanks must be refueled and the materiel to take care of.
                    another addition, only during the war years the Red Army was called up to 35 million people. A lot was called up, that many were waiting for their draft in the forests, at assembly points. The second grandfather was called up in the summer of 41, just sat in the assembly point near his village with the backward ones, until his turn reached the front in the fall of 41 years . so in quantitative terms the Red Army has always had an edge.
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 9 February 2014 23: 25
                      +1
                      Quote: smersh70
                      so in quantitative terms the Red Army has always had an edge.

                      This is your speculation, where does the advantage come from? Germany mobilized 34 million, the difference is only 3 percent. At the beginning of the war on the western border of the USSR, the Wehrmacht had a half-fold numerical advantage over the USSR.
                      1. Day 11
                        Day 11 9 February 2014 23: 28
                        0
                        Your untruth! I'm tired of explaining already. How many troops were there in Bialystok? And if you look more widely? Across the Western border
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 9 February 2014 23: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: Den 11
                        Tired to explain already

                        http://www.battlefield.ru/frontline-battle/



                        Forces and means of the USSR (western district) Germany and allies * Correlation
                        Personnel (thousand people) 2743 5500 1: 1,9
                        Guns and mortars 53499 ** 47200 1,15: 1
                        Tanks and assault guns 12782 4260 2,7: 1
                        Combat aircraft (total / serviceable) 10266 / 8696? / 4980 2: 1
                        Warships classes 182 157 1,2: 1
                      3. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 00: 23
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Forces and means of the USSR (western district) Germany and allies * Correlation
                        Personnel (thousand people) 2743 5500 1: 1,9
                        Guns and mortars 53499 ** 47200 1,15: 1
                        Tanks and assault guns 12782 4260 2,7: 1
                        Combat aircraft (total / serviceable) 10266 / 8696? / 4980 2: 1
                        Warships classes 182 157 1,2: 1

                        In the directions of the main attack, the ratio was far from in favor of the Red Army. For all positions.
                    2. smersh70
                      smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 38
                      0
                      Quote: Den 11
                      How many troops were there in one Bialystok?
                      I hope he believes the help of a special department smile
                    3. Setrac
                      Setrac 10 February 2014 00: 08
                      +2
                      Quote: Den 11
                      .How many troops were there in Bialystok?

                      And what is this talking about?
                      Quote: Den 11
                      And if you look wider?

                      If you look more broadly, then 5.5 million attacked, 3.2 million defended themselves, regardless of the concentration of troops on the Bialystok ledge. Do you know how to count to ten? Three less than five, already on the fingers explain.
                    4. Day 11
                      Day 11 10 February 2014 00: 14
                      +1
                      Why should I be rude? I can also talk on my fingers. Did they give us chances in the beginning or not?
                    5. Setrac
                      Setrac 10 February 2014 00: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: Den 11
                      Did they fight us Hans in the beginning or not?

                      DON'T BEAT UP. They won, realizing numerical superiority in people, artillery and communications. And we did not tear them, the Red Army defeated by realizing the qualitative superiority of the Red Army soldiers over European soldiers.
                    6. smersh70
                      smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Setrac
                      DON'T BEAT UP.

                      intelligence reports 3 Office of the NKVD ---
                      On July 11, Major-General of Artillery Vnukov believed that “the Red Army was badly beaten. There is no evidence of loss in the fact sheets. Knowing the organization during the Finnish campaign, I can imagine what is happening now and how they clatter us. The further advance of the Germans is obvious, and perhaps Moscow will have a repeat of 1812. ”
                      On July 8, the head of the Political Propaganda Department of the 28th Panzer Division of the North-Western Front, the battalion commissar Tretyakov believed that “our brave generals in peacetime, in wartime turned into wet chickens, were confused and cause panic in parts. An example is the deputy front commander, Lieutenant General Safronov.
                      July 5, Lieutenant Colonel Belay (16th Army Western Front) - The Germans are shaking us, no doubt we will have many deserters and our young people are not reliable and combat-ready, they will try to evade the war, they will start to desert, cut fingers and look for a way out. We are used to only screaming in a peaceful atmosphere, and now there is one stupidity and there is no order. ”
                    7. Day 11
                      Day 11 10 February 2014 01: 16
                      0
                      Here is the answer. It doesn’t tear ??? Thanks friend, I read it too
                    8. Setrac
                      Setrac 10 February 2014 19: 20
                      0
                      Quote: smersh70
                      artillery major general Vnukov believed

                      Quote: smersh70
                      the battalion commissar Tretyakov believed

                      Quote: smersh70
                      The further advance of the Germans is obvious, and perhaps Moscow will have a repeat of 1812

                      "Pologal", "expected", perhaps, probably not excluded. People come to your senses, you put forward ASSUMPTIONS as evidence !!! As a result, the repetition of 1812 did not happen, such assumptions are worthless.
                  2. Setrac
                    Setrac 10 February 2014 01: 17
                    0
                    Quote: smersh70
                    Knowing the organization during the Finnish campaign, I can imagine what is happening now and how they clatter us.

                    He can imagine anything, I can imagine how we landed on Alpha Centauri, between what HE imagines and the reality of the HUGE difference.
                    Quote: smersh70
                    We are used to only screaming in a peaceful environment, and now there is one stupid thing

                    This is about the officers who went through the first imperialist, civilian intervention, Spain, Halkin-Gol, Finnish (which should be correctly called Karelian, because the war was in Karelia).
                    The Wehrmacht also had a lot of "no-talk", but while the army is winning, they are silent about it.
                  3. smersh70
                    smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Setrac
                    This is about the officers who went through the first imperialist, civilian, intervention, Spain, Halkin-Gol, Finnish
                    these were different wars ---- the same officers--
                    July 9 this year the division commander Alekseev, having a written order of the Military Council of the front - to hold positions, on the basis of the allegedly oral order of the commander of the 7th Rifle Corps Dobroserdov, the 492nd Rifle Regiment, which had all the capabilities to hold the line's defense until reinforcements arrived, ordered it to withdraw. The remaining regiments were not given this order.
                    The division commander Alekseev, along with Commissioner Korzhev and other commanders, leaving the units, fled from the battlefield.
          2. Snoop
            Snoop 13 February 2014 23: 46
            0
            You mean, do not care, mathematics and everything else. Moreover, 3 million 500 thousand people were more or less evenly spread across the western borders of the USSR. The Germans and their allies concentrated their forces on the directions of the main attack.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Kars
      Kars 9 February 2014 23: 26
      +3
      Quote: smersh70
      Eyewitnesses saw how many tanks thrown from the 13000 tanks (from your cited book) were damaged, and how many celechons left to the Germans.

      Really? They climbed inside and carried out those inspections? Was there fuel? And so on? And then write how much? From 13 000 was thrown whole, with fuel and shells? Accurate to a hundred?
      Quote: smersh70
      . The marriage was already later

      Then the marriage was such that the tankers refused to go into battle. And before there was a marriage and improper planning. All the same, read the book, and not with one eye.

      And the fact that you wrote the rest is off topic.
      Quote: smersh70
      so in quantitative terms the Red Army has always had an edge.

      but not in 1941 on the German fleet. And by the way, can you give a similar tablet? for the USSR
      http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/wwII.php
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 32
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        yes? they climbed inside and carried out those inspections? Was there fuel? and so on? and then write how much?

        I believe my colleagues from 41 years old --- As indicated in the special communication of the 3rd Directorate of NPO No. 4/37175 of July 8, “according to the message of the 3rd Department of the Western Front, as of July 1 there were the following significant flaws.
        R-9 lubricants, diesel fuel and autol in parts were running out. The OSG application of the front of June 23 for the shipment of R-9 by the Red Army Fuel Supply Administration by July 1 was not fulfilled. Lubricants and fuel shipped for front units were delivered in small quantities from June 23 to 30, which did not meet the front's demand to any degree, and certain types of lubricants and fuel were not supplied at all.
        On June 29, the front commander ordered the transfer of fuel for the front by transport aircraft.
        This task was entrusted to captain Sorokin, representative of the ABT front, and Ponomarev, military engineer of the 3rd rank, who were not brought fuel to the airfield in the required quantity due to lack of agreement among themselves, as a result of which only 22 were loaded from 3 transport aircraft, the rest flew away unloaded.
        The heads of individual warehouses in a panic in front of the enemy set fire to the warehouses, while they themselves deserted.
        The chief of the fuel and lubricants warehouse No. 497 in the city of Orsha, 3rd-rank quartermaster Tregubov and the pompolit, the battalion commissar Pivovarov, in panic set fire to the warehouse No. 497 in the city of Orsha, and they themselves deserted. 700 tons of gasoline and 6 cars of lubricant and oil burned out.
        Tregubov and the Brewers brought to trial by the Military Tribunal.
        Head of the fuel and lubricants warehouse No. 645 at the station Grave - quartermaster of the 2nd rank May 26 June burned the warehouse, and he deserted.
        An investigation is underway by the 3rd Front Division on this fact.
        The supply of front units under the command of command was not established.
        Due to the lack of communication between the Front Directorate and the quartermaster of the armies, corps, and individual military units, the quartermaster’s office did not know about the situation with food and other types of property.
        The head warehouses of food as of July 1 have not yet been formed and have not been thrown into the front line.
      2. Kars
        Kars 9 February 2014 23: 37
        +2
        Quote: smersh70
        I believe my colleagues from 41 year

        And?
        where are the abandoned tanks whole, refueled and with ammunition?

        and all this does not cancel the state of technology of which I speak, but only exacerbates.
      3. smersh70
        smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 40
        0
        Quote: Kars
        And?
        where are the abandoned tanks whole, refueled and with ammunition?
        here I put about 6 mechkorpus-read
      4. Kars
        Kars 9 February 2014 23: 42
        +1
        Quote: smersh70
        here I put about 6 mechkorpus-read

        no need to bet - just say the number.
      5. smersh70
        smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 55
        0
        Quote: Kars
        Do not put - just say the number.
        6 case ---
        7 TD

        51 - apt
        151 t-34
        0 - t-28

        125-BT
        42 - T-26
        and this is only one 7th tank division, and in the certificate it is written that he, the corps was equipped with a fully-personnel-36000, tanks-1031, of which KV-126, T-34-368 .. well, like that, you’ll agree. ...
      6. Kars
        Kars 10 February 2014 00: 37
        +3
        Quote: smersh70
        and this is only one 7 tank division, and in the certificate it is written that he, the corps was equipped with full-personnel-36000, tanks-1031, of which sq-126, T-34-368 .. well, like that, you’ll agree

        agrees, I can and agree - only a fur hull is not only tanks but also tractors. trucks. we have workshop stocks of mat parts. And according to 6 you should not make an opinion on all fur hulls.

        but I don’t see the number of abandoned in good condition and I brought the data that refute the effectiveness of the NKVD
        Quote: smersh70
        what rubbish .... everything was normal, everything worked, carried out

        Quote: smersh70
        Yes, the NKVD would send all to the other world, and the heads of armored services, repair bases

        it doesn’t get what, and they wrote a message even to Comrade Stalin himself.
      7. Day 11
        Day 11 10 February 2014 00: 46
        0
        Kars, for me you have always been an authority in armored vehicles. But how can you write in an illiterate way? Okay, I missed the letter in a hell of a way ... I don’t give a damn that you are soooo, but SOVIET!
      8. Kars
        Kars 10 February 2014 01: 09
        +5
        Quote: Den 11
        But how can one write illiterate?

        I can write - I can not write.
        Quote: Den 11
        I don’t care what the hell you are, but SOVIET!

        and what? By the way, I had a record in the dictation of 27 errors, and by some miracle ((()))) on every first ekazamena I had a triple for a dictation)))
      9. Day 11
        Day 11 10 February 2014 01: 18
        0
        Do not be offended by the old man! Just a statement ...
      10. Kars
        Kars 10 February 2014 01: 55
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Do not be offended by the old man! Just a statement ...

        I’m already used to it. By the way, they usually begin to recall my spelling after the arguments are exhausted, and the opponent wants to feel at least in some part a winner or just better than me))) do not be offended.
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        "... We all learned a little - something and somehow ..." (c)

        Here, it’s rather an unwillingness to spoil the statistics and see me for a year more than necessary. And by the way in literature that was Russian, that Ukrainian was excellent for me.
      11. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 02: 04
        +3
        Quote: Kars
        Here, it’s rather an unwillingness to spoil the statistics and see me for a year more than necessary. And by the way in literature that was Russian, that Ukrainian was excellent for me.

        Kars, well, you can’t make fun of you ... And I'm tired of official work ... crying
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 01: 24
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    I can write - I can not write.

    Classics of the genre laughing
    The question to someone who came to be hired: "What can you do?"
    Answer - I can work.
    - What else?
    “I may not work.” wassat
    Quote: Kars
    on every first ekazamena I had a triple for dictation

    "... We all learned little by little - something and somehow ..." (with)
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 00: 47
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    it doesn’t get what, and they wrote a message even to Comrade Stalin himself.

    of course) 0 and what they had to do) 0 the technology is to blame for everything. They will not write to Comrade Stalin that they just scoured so much equipment and weapons, not to mention the vast territories. almost 13000 Katukov’s brigade defended (I’m talking about tanks,) even Zhukov asked for 1 tanks near Moscow, but they said no. so where did the tanks go)))))))
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 01: 08
    +1
    Quote: smersh70
    they will write to comrade Stalin that they just profiled

    Don't you want to read? Or just don't want to change position?
    Quote: Kars
    ov. STALIN
    9th of June 1941

    Remember the war began on June 22))) all the same, you didn’t read the book that I advised, you didn’t read. It will be interesting to read.
    Quote: smersh70
    13000 thousand tanks under the tail
    What yes, yes, and the book details the reasons.
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 44
    0
    Quote: Kars
    What yes, yes, and the book details the reasons.
    so then I read it all the same))))
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 01: 51
    +2
    Quote: smersh70
    so then I read it all the same))))

    they can read something, then definitely not this book. and you arrive in blissful ignorance about the true situation in the armored forces of the USSR.
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 02
    0
    Quote: Kars
    it’s definitely not this book.
    her, her darling) 0 is true in the electronic version. A typical attempt to justify the stupid actions of the generals and blame everything on the military industry of the USSR.
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 04
    +1
    Quote: smersh70
    her, her darling) 0 true in electronic version

    do not lie.

    Quote: smersh70
    blame everything on the military industry of the USSR.

    You want to say that Soviet industry was advanced and did not experience problems?
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 09
    +2
    [quote] "To the Chairman of the Economic Council under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR Molotov.

    4 March 1941 city

    On the issue of material and technical support of the order plan for camp workshops.

    During 1939 – 40 NPO orders for the manufacture of camp workshops of type “A”, “B” and workshops of the army repair and restoration battalion (ARVB) are not executed due to poor provision of funds for the necessary equipment, tools and materials.

    The issue of allocating funds to ensure the order plan for the 1941 camp workshops of the year still remains unresolved. The factories, in accordance with the instructions of their People’s Commissariats and Glavkov, refuse to sign contractual obligations with NPOs of the USSR, citing the lack of a Government decision on the material and technical support of the order.

    Having a great need for marching repair equipment in the Red Army, I ask for your decision to provide material funds for the order of NPOs for repair shops along with basic defense orders.

    Marshal of the Soviet Union S. Timoshenko

    Chief of the General Staff K.A. Army General Zhukov

    [quote = smersh70] if all almost the industry of the USSR worked for military needs. [/ quote]
  • The comment was deleted.
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 15
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Disadvantages when using mechanical enclosures

    but the repair component in the certificate in last place --- 1) The bulkiness of the command post structure, which impeded the tactical maneuverability of armored formations;
    2) Weak tactical and technical training of personnel, especially command;
    3) Poor cohesion of units and divisions;
    4) Frequent changes in the areas of concentration, as a result of which there were large marches, which led to severe deterioration of the machines before participating in the battles (the 8th mechanized corps made a march of about 500 km before the battle, lost up to 45% of cars during this time; 56- I made a march of about 1000 km, lost up to 35% of cars);
    5) Lack of interaction with artillery, aviation and infantry tanks and poor coverage of tank formations with anti-aircraft weapons;
    6) Lack of intelligence about the enemy and the terrain, as a result of which a significant number of tanks died in the swamps;
    7) Lack of repair facilities, spare parts and evacuations;
    8) Manifestation of alarmism and cowardice by individual commanders.
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 01: 58
    +1
    Quote: smersh70
    but the repair component in the certificate in last place

    ))) on the LAST.
    even vryatli these items are located in exactly the order of importance.
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 15
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    even vryatli these items are located in exactly the order of importance.
    at least at school, a Russian teacher Natalya Nikolaevna always taught the most important thing to carry forward))) For which I was always appreciated by reading my notes from my department head))))))))
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 27
    +1
    Quote: smersh70
    Natalya Nikolaevna always taught the Russian language the most important thing to bring forward in importance))

    And the last from the penultimate did not learn to distinguish?
    Quote: smersh70
    reading my inquiries my head of department))))))))

    And did you write this? And why do you think that what you consider significant, really is?
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 31
    +2
    But we will return to the pre-war (so far) time when even in a timely and fully “attached” order did not guarantee the successful receipt of the “goods” exactly on time. Ideal, like the brand new “six hundredth gelding”, the Stalinist USSR, where any order was executed accurately and on time, and for the slightest mistake followed the immediate inevitable punishment of the terrible NKVD, existed - and continues to exist safely - exclusively in the heads some dreamers. In practice, the “sinister Stalinist empire” was more like a battered UAZ - it creaks here, it hangs on a rope, here, generally speaking, but somehow it moves forward. Yes, even on such a "road", where any "Mercedes" on the very first pothole will sit down.

    Among the “creaks” and “ropes” included underfulfillment - sometimes even without “before” - plans. Here, for example, is what the military representative wrote to his superiors. GABTU at the Stalingrad Tractor:

    “T-34 Spare Parts Program in April ripped off. According to the contract No. B-1-217 of 6 on March this year STZ was supposed to hand over spare parts for 500.000 rubles in April, it was handed over - zero, which I asked the plant director about ”.

    One can also recall Comrade Kakunin’s factory, which “safely” thwarted the release of 76-mm armor-piercing shells, and more and more ...

    But it’s much more interesting to try to find an answer to the cause of these disruptions, fortunately, you don’t have to go far for it, it lies directly on the surface.

    As you know, the army is a part of society, its slice. And the situation in the tank units of the Red Army, which we "revealed" throughout the previous chapters, very clearly reflects the situation in the USSR in general and industry in particular. Just like the army, Soviet industry, despite industrialization going at an accelerated pace (and partly just because of these very pace), constantly suffered from a shortage of everything and everything.

  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 51
    0
    Quote: Kars
    But back in the pre-war (yet) time,
    Better in ours)))) already 3 am) 0 let's go to sleep)) Good night everyone !!!! drinks
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 48
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And the last from the penultimate did not learn to distinguish?
    this is because I served in the air force bully Although you are a tanker, the pilots don’t say the last, they say the last)))
    Quote: Kars
    why do you think that what you consider significant is really like that?
    Because i think so smile as Mkrtchyan said))) You refer to the book, and I refer to the documents) You catch the difference smile
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 56
    +1
    Quote: smersh70
    this is due to the fact that I served in the Air Force though you tankis

    I'm not a tanker

    Quote: smersh70
    the pilots do not say the last, they say the extreme)))

    Quote: smersh70
    but the repair component in the certificate on the last location

    Quote: smersh70
    You refer to the book, and I refer to the documents) You catch the difference

    So far, you haven’t referred to anything special. And in your book, what are you not documents?

    Quote: smersh70
    ) You catch the difference

    so far, it’s not in your favor that you couldn’t confirm anything. Especially about the abandoned tanks, and that the NKVD with an iron hand put things in order in the people's commissariat of defense, so that spare parts appeared.
    Quote: smersh70
    )) is already 3 hours of the night)
    I only have an hour.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 00: 21
    +3
    Quote: Kars
    Tanks KB and T-34 with their powerful weapons and armor, showed good fighting qualities. However, due to the lack of diesel engines, which at the same time have a very short service life (100 hours), some of these tanks are not operational.

    This is at the factory stand.
    In the field, motor resources subsided up to 70-80 hours.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 00: 11
    +3
    Quote: smersh70
    And I’m silent about the battles near Dubno. all tanks 2 mech.korpusa lost during the transition, it just ran out of fuel. That the generals did not know that the tanks needed to be refueled and the equipment should be protected.

    There it was banal to "drive" tanks - orders flew like from a mad printer. At the crossings, tanks broke down (and an ambush with spare parts), aircraft bombed (the charter forbade night crossings). And, essno, the fuel ran out. Fuel trucks literally did not keep up, or they themselves fell under bombers.
    Maybe he was scribbling in vain - everyone knows everything perfectly.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 10 February 2014 00: 48
      0
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      am corny tanks were "driven" - orders flew like from a mad printer
      That's right, as it was required to prove) 0confirmed my words, our command was to blame for everything !!!! returned to the beginning of the dispute))))))
    2. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 01: 32
      +4
      Quote: smersh70
      That's right, as it was required to prove) 0confirmed my words, our command was to blame for everything !!!! returned to the beginning of the dispute))))))

      If the dispute about the professional suitability of the Soviet generals in the first months of the war, then the OKW and the headquarters of the Wehrmacht ground forces look no better in the light of Operation Bagration.
      Only the initial conditions cannot be compared.
      And PanzerWaffen, starting in mid-1943, simply became the Wehrmacht fire brigade on the Eastern Front.
      In almost all German memoirs, one can find references to the competent actions of the Red Army in the first months of the war. Let not always. But both Halder and Mellentin were forced to note this fact.
      Only Manstein is out of this row.
    3. smersh70
      smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 41
      0
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      If the dispute over the suitability of the Soviet generals in the first months of the war,
      these are 2 big differences, as we say in Odessa)) it is one thing to start a war, and another thing is a 3 year war.
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      If the dispute over the suitability of the Soviet generals in the first months of the war,

      the only plus is lossless entry of troops into Iran smile is it about the army
      and the only one who showed his suitability is the NKVD troops and its generals.
    4. Day 11
      Day 11 10 February 2014 01: 48
      +1
      Right! I immediately remembered General Maslennikov (NKVD). The Army men cowardly fled (yes, that's right) and he defended the Caucasus! 42nd Army, if that
    5. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 01: 51
      +3
      Quote: smersh70
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      If the debate about the suitability of the Soviet generals in the first months of the war is 2 big differences, as we say in Odessa)) the start of the war is one thing, and the 3 year of the war is another.

      So you are Odessa?
      The situation in June 1944 does not honor the Germans, since the troops ALREADY fought for three years - everything, as it is heated, on ointments, everything is in the know ....
      The Red Army in July 1943 with difficulty transferred the tsutswang to the gambit.
      So let's honestly evaluate the actions of the Red Army in June-July 1941: there were failures, but there was more hard military work, a feat of all who restrained the Wehrmacht.
    6. smersh70
      smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 57
      0
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      So you are Odessa?
      No))) rather Minsker)))
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      June-July 1941: there were failures,
      to say the least
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      but there was more hard military labor, a feat of all who restrained the Wehrmacht.
      not at this time, but near Moscow. There Verily defended their Homeland, their Capital. This is where the Victory grew from.
    7. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 02: 10
      +2
      Quote: smersh70
      not at this time, but near Moscow. There Verily defended their Homeland, their Capital. This is where the Victory grew from.

      Well, really, I don’t know ...
      I can’t give such categorical assessments.
      Near Stalingrad, in my opinion, it was incomparably harder - the remoteness from the center, the lack of a terrible railroad, the presence of the Volga, as a water barrier, affected it.
  • smersh70
    smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 31
    0
    Quote: Kars
    do not expand on everything, I can talk about tank troops, their condition, quality, etc.

    In battles with the enemy corps, 27 “KB” tanks and 174 T-34 tanks were lost, in addition, 133 tanks of the indicated brands went down due to technical malfunctions.
    Most of these losses occurred through the fault of the command of the 6th Army, which threw parts of the body from place to place over long distances.
    Tanks "KB" and T-34 rushed on the roads due to minor malfunctions. The command of the 6th Army did not carry out any work to collect the material left on the roads. By the forces of the corps 73 tanks were picked up and evacuated, 98 tanks were blown up and burned.
    So much for repair examples.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 10 February 2014 01: 39
      +1
      Old man, you’re in shock today! Well done for tackling this issue! So I'm not the only one on the forum
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 50
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Old man, you’re in shock today! Well done for tackling this issue! So I'm not the only one on the forum
        Dan, from the 1st year of 1941, for me it’s both a mystery and a topic, everything! How much you don’t study this topic, you still dig up something. A huge army, great opportunities, a theater of war were simply created to fight, forests, rivers, rivers. And here you have to hand over Minsk within 5 days. I cannot understand. I climbed all the forests of Belarus, the Brest fortress, even on potatoes near Mogilev I managed to get an artillery shell and dragged it into the location of the detachment)))) the truth the brigadier said that it’s not for that we will pay you laughing
      2. Day 11
        Day 11 10 February 2014 01: 59
        +1
        Old man, to my shame (shame) was not in Brest. Was in Pruzhany, Lida, Gomel
      3. smersh70
        smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 20
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        tariff, to my shame (shame) had not been in Brest
        It’s a cool place. In the morning you feel how everything happened, almost everything has been preserved. Especially when you stand next to the loopholes and look at the bridge.
        Well, the girls of Brest fellow Well, you know, this is our weakest spot with you))) 3 blood merger! Beauties !!!! good
      4. Day 11
        Day 11 10 February 2014 02: 28
        0
        Don’t press on personal !!! I know this! I remembered, back in Borisov I had two times. Do you remember the train to Brest?
      5. smersh70
        smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 44
        0
        Quote: Den 11
        Do not push on personal !!! I know it! In

        laughing
        Quote: Den 11
        Do you remember the train to Brest?
        and don’t say)) how from the wedding back with Pruzhany they were returning to her) bully
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 02
    +4
    Quote: smersh70
    Anki “KB” and T-34 threw themselves on the roads due to minor malfunctions.

    So where are the serviceable ones? And even a small malfunction in the absence of spare parts or means of evacuation is no different from engine failure.
    Quote: smersh70
    So much for repair examples.

    Campaign you are too stubborn to do with your position even though you already see that you are wrong.
    Quote: smersh70
    Eyewitnesses saw how many tanks thrown from the 13000 tanks (from your cited book) were damaged, and how many celechons left to the Germans. The marriage has already been

    here I can’t help you with anything.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 09
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      Where are the serviceable ones?
      Well, they were in the parks and before going onto the road, they were serviceable! So minor malfunctions are made by the remorse that is in every regiment. Well, the carburetor flew or the caterpillar flew off that the crew couldn’t fix everything myself. (When I climbed on my Niva to the front line, where heights were 2500 and higher, I had everything in Niva that needed to be slightly repaired. Because there I could not find a locksmith, or an electrician, or a guy from repair, I did everything myself) If, according to your statements , the factories were guilty, then where was the government acceptance as part of high ranks, general Where he was the commander of the compound, took the technique and to sign the act.
    2. Kars
      Kars 10 February 2014 02: 13
      +2
      Quote: smersh70
      Well, so they were in the parks and before going out on the road

      Even in the parks there were many not working.

      and WAS not saving you.
      Quote: smersh70
      to minor malfunctions and are made remrota, which is in every regiment.

      Are you sure that it is equipped with spare parts?
      Quote: smersh70
      Well, the carburetor flew or the caterpillar flew off, that the crew cannot fix everything
      It depends on how trained the crew is, and they were prepared VERY poorly, especially on tanks of new models.

      Quote: smersh70
      ) If, according to your statements, the factories were to blame, then where was the government acceptance as part of high ranks, generals, where was the commander of the compound, who accepted the equipment and signed the act

      Strange you said that you read a book, and there it is voiced.
    3. Kars
      Kars 10 February 2014 02: 14
      +2
      HELP READY FOR THE TANK PARTS OF THE KIEV SPECIAL MILITARY DISTRICT

      as of May 5 1941 of the year.

      4 BODY

      8 tank division - fully operational, vehicles - fully.

      32 tank division - is combat-ready, can conduct close combat, it is provided with 35% of vehicles.

      81 motorized division - fully operational, provided with vehicles.

      8 BODY

      12 tank division - is combat-ready, does not have heavy tanks, fully by road.

      34 - '' - combat-ready, does not have medium tanks, 60% by vehicles.

      7 MOTORIZES. division - in combat vehicles it is combat-ready by 60%, by vehicles by 90%.

      9 BODY

      20 tank division - not combat ready.

      35 - '' - not combat capable.

      131 MOTORIZES. division - not combat ready.

      15 BODY

      10 tank division - fully operational, vehicles - fully.

      37 is combat-ready, does not have heavy and medium tanks, motor vehicles - by 40%.

      212 MOTORIZES. division - not combat ready.

      16 BODY

      15 tank division - is combat-ready, does not have heavy tanks, fully by road.

      39 - '' - 50% combat-ready, has no heavy and medium tanks.

      240 MOTORIZES. division - not combat ready.

      19 BODY

      43 Panzer Division - 40% operational, does not have heavy and medium tanks.

      40 - '' - not combat capable.

      213 MOTORIZES. division - not combat ready.

      22 BODY

      19 tank division - not combat ready.

      41 is combat-ready, does not have heavy and medium tanks, motor vehicles - by 50%.

      215 MOTORIZES. division - not combat ready.

      24 BODY

      45 tank division - not combat ready.

      49 - '' - not combat capable.

      216 MOTORIZES. division is not combat ready ”[210]

    4. smersh70
      smersh70 10 February 2014 02: 41
      0
      Quote: Kars
      9 BODY
      20 tank division - not combat ready.
      35 - '' - not combat capable.


      District
      9 mk, in short, here's about her data and everything - http: //liewar.ru/dokumenty/220-krasnaya-armiya-v-iyune-1941-goda-statistich
      eskij-sbornik.html? showall = & start = 11
      copy long-BT-7- there were 138 pieces, T-26-144 pieces, T-38--34 pieces, your favorite cars, 1027 pieces, tractors-114 pieces ... And you wrote that it was not operational.
    5. Kars
      Kars 10 February 2014 02: 51
      +3
      Quote: smersh70
      District
      9 m

      ((((((
      This is not what I wrote. That it is not operational. And just all the tanks that are worn out and without spare parts.

      Give their technical condition. And the percentage of filling by state
      so I don’t see the facts that she is combat ready.
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 16
    +1
    : “The Military Prosecutor's Office of the North-Western Front received materials on losses during the period of hostilities of the 110 motor vehicle fleet of the howitzer artillery named after comrade Voroshilov. In his explanations, the regiment commander said: “Tractor park.

    a) 95 pieces of the “Kommunar” tractor were lost due to their malfunction and lack of spare parts for restoration.

    These tractors were manufactured and received in 1926 – 27. and underwent several overhauls. Starting from 1934 – 35, that is, from the moment their production ceased and other brands of tractors were published, the question was raised of their withdrawal. During 14 years of stay in the regiment, it was repeatedly written about the condition of these tractors. After a long four-hundred-kilometer march in Bessarabia (1940), the difficulties of which were seen by Colonel General Lebedev, I heard directly in a letter addressed to the Head of the GAU KA [213] Colonel General Voronov about the unsuitability of tractors and replacing them. In response to my letter, the resolution of Colonel General Voronov “The question was raised about replacing these tractors with other brands” was followed.

    Upon arrival in Lithuania, the same question was repeatedly raised before Nachart and the Head of ABTV about replacing these tractors, in addition, the above commissions noted a similar requirement in their acts.

    Only this winter, the regiment received 25 Voroshilovets tractors, which were only enough for the warhead of one division. These tractors were taken to camps.

    On the eve of the war, Voroshilovets tractors were shipped from Riga to the regiment 26, which until now [214] had not arrived at the regiment, since they had been lost on the railway [215].

    There were no fuel bases along the regiment’s movement path, and the tractor had to be refueled with various random fuels. Decrepit rattling cars running on fuel that does not correspond to this engine; without a single spare part, of course, the systems and trailers could not hold out in such a long journey and failed.

    Of the total number of 95 units - 25 tractors were coffins in winter apartments, and it was impossible to repair them.

    In addition, at the time of the outbreak of hostilities from the same number, the 31 tractor was in need of major repairs, the average 20 and the rest had a power reserve of 10 – 30 hours.

    b) The Comintern tractors in the amount of 2 units were received by the regiment in 1938, all motor resources came out and required factory repair. The regiment did not have spare parts for them, since there were no more such tractors in the regiment. These tractors stood waiting for major repairs for one year.

    c) ChTZ-65 tractors in the amount of 7 pieces went out of order on the road, as they were used during the winter and summer periods and required repair, because of the lack of spare parts it was impossible to restore them on the way.

    d) ChTZ-60 tractors in the amount of 12 pieces were received by the regiment in the 1936 – 1937 years and, without major repairs, were incapable of such a long journey; the regiment did not have spare parts for engine repairs.

    e) Unstable tractors STZ-NATI 1 pcs. and HTZ-wheeled 1 pcs. They were expecting factory repairs, the order for the production of which was received on the eve of the war and did not have time to send them for repair.

    All tractors, both those that were not taken from the winter apartments and that were left in transit, were disabled by breaking down the units and arson ... “[216] The commission, which checked the 15th tank division of the 8th mechanized corps, did not go into unnecessary details and simply stated in the report: “The howitzer regiment is equipped with STZ-5 tractors. These tractors are low-power and slow-moving. When moving uphill, one implement must be towed by two or three tractors “
  • Kars
    Kars 10 February 2014 02: 17
    +2
    Quote: smersh70
    the factories were guilty, then where was the government acceptance as part of high ranks


    Having abandoned the idea of ​​creating such a universal machine; the plant started producing STZ-5 tractors that, in his opinion, meet the requirements of agriculture and transport. Nevertheless, the STZ-5 tractor did not satisfy these requirements in many respects, and during these years the plant had to introduce about 900 changes in the design of its tractors.

    Since there was no tractor in the Red Army for divisional artillery, in spite of the fact that the STZ-5 tractor did not pass a single polygon test, it was necessary to use this tractor in the Red Army as a temporary measure until a new tractor appeared, fully meeting the new requirements of NPOs.

  • badger1974
    badger1974 9 February 2014 20: 54
    0
    rubbish, and full, moreover, smeared, and what has to do with the commanders who, following the directive "about not involving the entrusted units in provocations" under pain of a tribunal, the same thing is in the Air Force, only much worse, so it was generally forbidden to rise into the air without an order ... chiefs of military districts, and consequently without the personal approval of the chief commissariat of the military, the fleets met an attack if not at all weapons so at least worthy thanks to Kuznetsov, to whom the tribunal commission was already traveling
    1. Snoop
      Snoop 14 February 2014 00: 01
      0
      It is strange that war veteran Dolgush in the program "Weapons of Victory. I-16" is lying about the fact that the first Ju-87 shot down from him on June 21, 41?)))
      Moreover, the order was given not to force landing, not to knock out, but to kill the pilots. Which he did open fire from machine guns in the cockpit.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 9 February 2014 19: 08
    0
    How many ??? 4 thousand? You didn’t get anything wrong ??? So how many panzer hit us on June 22, 41 years?
  • Setrac
    Setrac 9 February 2014 20: 12
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    Nothing like that! Can you give statistics?

    These are official figures, in July 1941, 5.5 million Wehrmacht fought with the Allies against 3.2 million of the Red Army. This corresponds to the ratio of the population of the Third Reich to satellites against the USSR. In industry, the Third Reich with satellites exceeded the USSR FOUR times.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 9 February 2014 20: 21
      +1
      Let's take a look at these “allies.” Bulgarians, Czechs, Romanians, maybe there were also Magyars warriors? Macaroni, who this war did not resist, the Spaniards with one division? Who else remained? So it turns out that only Hans fought. The rest are suitcase without handle
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 9 February 2014 20: 29
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        Let's take a look at these "allies." Bulgarians, Czechs, Romanians, maybe the Magyars were also warriors?

        In the Red Army, too, not all were purebred Slavs. Let’s then calculate differently: 135 million ethnic Russians (many of whom remained in the occupied Germans and territory) versus 125 million ethnic Germans.
        Quote: Den 11
        Who else is left? So it turns out that only Hans fought. The rest is a suitcase without a handle

        One and a half million people - a serious appendage to the Wehrmacht, in the USSR, too, not everyone was eager to fight against the Wehrmacht.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 9 February 2014 20: 38
          +1
          It’s nice to discuss with a smart person. I’ll correct you a little, not against the Wehrmacht, they didn’t want to fight --- rather, they didn’t accept that way of life (Stalin). And about the multi-national army (RKKA) --- it brought up one system and thought the Turkmen boy like and Russian Vanya
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 21: 15
          +3
          Quote: Setrac
          One and a half million people - a serious appendage to the Wehrmacht, in the USSR, too, not everyone was eager to fight against the Wehrmacht.

          A vivid example is the unhindered breakthrough of Manstein’s units along the coastal front of Crimea to the positions of the Red Army in March 1942, which occupied (but did not defend) the national units from Transcaucasia.
          I don’t want to mention the Anders army, but - to the point.
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 9 February 2014 22: 22
            0
            Quote: stalkerwalker
            March 1942, which occupied (but did not defend) the national units from Transcaucasia.

            here your obvious puncture, because of the stupid command of the red army, 2 Azerbaijani and 1 Armenian divisions were completely defeated. the overweight was huge, but the German command, having a small number, completely outplayed the leadership of the front. They could not deploy troops in tank dangerous directions, but they were placed in one line, which and crushed. by the way, my grandfather died there, under Kerch, it was not even known where he died, how much anarchy was at the front. In the 70s, only when his father wrote to the Moscow Region did they inform the area of ​​death, but about the burial, it’s not known. has divisions from Azerbaijan were taken about Sevastopol, as well as the impregnable Sapun-mountain, there is also a monument to those liberating them. so there are all questions for the command, such as Petrov and all the others who left their troops near Sevastopol .......
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 22: 34
              +2
              Quote: smersh70
              here is your obvious puncture,

              For what I bought ... The nationality of the unit that opened the front is not reported.
              Quote: smersh70
              because of the stupid command of the red army, 2 Azerbaijani and 1 Armenian divisions were completely killed

              Somewhere I already heard it - from rezunov-solonikov-bunichoy
              Quote: smersh70
              such as Petrov and everyone else who left their troops near Sevastopol .......

              I don’t even dispute ... Petrova covered a colonel (?) With his body from the line from the PPSh
              Wurghun ...
              Believe me, in no way was I going to discredit the memory of those who fell on the battlefields, defending their homeland - all the nationalities of the USSR fought in the Great Patriotic War.
              And I’m not going to investigate the theme of nationality of units that lay down weapons without a fight.
              hi
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 9 February 2014 22: 51
                +1
                And rightly so, there wasn’t enough here yet to arrange between us Kusalovo!
              2. smersh70
                smersh70 9 February 2014 23: 20
                0
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                For what I bought ..
                You are books to me) 0a I have documents for you)) -see-http: //liewar.ru/tragediya-22-iyunya/1
                31-nachalnyj-period
                -vojny-v-dokumentakh-voennoj-kontrrazvedki-22-iyunya-9-iyulya-1941-g.html
                As indicated in special communication of the 3rd Directorate of NCO No. 35134 dated June 25, “according to the message of the 3rd [th] department of the North-Western Front, on June 24, 1941 the enemy advanced 80 km in the Kaunas direction, directing the strike to the north-east, and on the Šiauliai direction, he advanced 60-70 km. A serious situation is being created for the 11th army and the left flank of the 8th army.
                Command and control from the front headquarters and below is bad. Front headquarters often lose touch with the armies. Radio stations are poorly used.
                On the night of June 24 this year the enemy occupied Kaunas. [...]
                The material part of the artillery of the front dropped out in significant numbers. Most of them were left during the withdrawal, for example: the 414th howitzer artillery regiment of the 125th Rifle Division withdrew 2-3 guns from battle due to the loss of horse-drawn personnel.

                Counterattack of the 12th mechanized corps on June 23 this year essentially frustrated due to lack of communication and control by the front headquarters. After giving the order for a counterattack in the evening of June 22, the front headquarters had absolutely no connection with the corps during the day, did not know about preparations for a counterattack, the course of the counterattack itself, as a result the corps was late with an attack for 6 hours, the blow was scattered 11 and i - no result from the blow.
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker 10 February 2014 00: 28
                  +2
                  Quote: smersh70
                  You give me books) and I will give you documents)) - look

                  I do not argue - we are talking about the same thing.
                  All participants in this discussion have read the history of the development of border battles, or perhaps they have studied it.
      2. Motors1991
        Motors1991 9 February 2014 21: 05
        +1
        Hitler put the Finns above the German soldiers, the Spanish, blue, division showed themselves very well near Leningrad, our troops failed to break through its defenses in 1942, the Magyars fought well, the Romanians were also quite good, so the Nazis were quite combat-ready satellites. Chekhs may not be very good soldiers, but they had a first-class military industry, so good that the Germans held their teeth in the 45th, until May 9th.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 9 February 2014 21: 19
          0
          Don't talk nonsense --- Aloizych could not put the Finns (albeit close in blood) above the Aryans! Where are the Magyars and Romanians shown themselves well in battle? In Odessa, they were so lawless that even the Hans were in ah --- had them to carry out demonstrative executions of these "warriors". Give an example. NEVER were they warriors and never will! Finns-agree --- fighters !!!
          1. Motors1991
            Motors1991 10 February 2014 19: 24
            0
            Read ,, Hitler's table speeches, but about the Magyar my deceased father would tell you how he fought with them in the 56th year, he fought, and did not suppress how they like to talk with us. After the last battle from their company of 72 there were 9 people left in the ranks. At the same time, remember how much we stormed Budapest, longer than Berlin, there was even a medal for the liberation of Budapest, Romanians were the 41st main opponents of the Southern Front, if you don’t tell how the Southern Front was defeated, Romanians would have defeated him in tanks. So since the end of 42 years, the Red Ar tions had absolute superiority in all components of the satellites over the armies of Germany, it does not mean that they are bad war.
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 February 2014 22: 45
          +2
          Quote: Motors1991
          Czechs may not be very good soldiers

          At least every third PanzerVaffen driver was from the Czech Republic.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 9 February 2014 22: 58
            +1
            By the way, Kurt Knispel is also with Czech blood
      3. smersh70
        smersh70 10 February 2014 01: 53
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        So it turns out that only Hans fought. The rest is a suitcase without a handle

        You're right.--
        In a battle with the enemy units of the 97th Infantry Division, a group of German soldiers was captured. By inspecting the weapons taken from them, it was found that the Nazi Germans were actively fighting, their rifle trunks were very hot, for prisoners from Austrians, Czechs, and other nationalities, rifles remained oiled, since not a single shot was fired from them ” (Ibid., L. 250-253.)
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 10 February 2014 13: 30
    +2
    Laurels of the cadet Bigler do not give rest to the "couch special forces". An article about the struggle of the Soviet infantry with German motorized and tank units. And they wrote ........ And Rokossovsky and the film "The General" and ........ If the writers had shot at least once from RPG 7, I think that at least they would have understood something. MTP is a reliable, technological and cheap solution made in a specific country at a specific time. War is very different from shooters and paintball. There they kill once and cannot be saved. And the tank ... Tvardovsky said best of all:

    Low-chested, flat-bottomed,
    Burdened by itself,
    With a gun, at the soul pointed,
    Scary tank going into battle.
  • Vladimir73
    Vladimir73 13 February 2014 00: 33
    +1
    I liked the article. Although the topic proposed by the author, in my opinion, requires more coverage.
    I read the comments to the article and did not see that someone would pay attention to the main thing - could the USSR afford the release of useless weapons in such volumes (the PTR "went through" almost the entire war)? It looks like there was a lot of sense!