Day of Military Glory of Russia - the day the counter offensive began in the Battle of Moscow

Today, Russia celebrates the anniversary of one of the turning points not only in stories World War II, but in the entire history of Russia. Exactly 72 a year ago, the counteroffensive of the Soviet troops in the Battle for Moscow began.

Our counteroffensive near Moscow was the central strategic event of the first year of the Great Patriotic War and the first major defeat of the German troops during the entire Second World War, which destroyed the myth of their invincibility.

The great battle for Moscow opened the glorious victories of the Russian weapons in the Great Patriotic War. An unprecedented number of people and military equipment took part in this battle of the greatest scale and intensity on both sides: more than 7 million soldiers and officers, over 50 thousand artillery pieces, about 6,5 thousand. tanks and more than 3 thousand combat aircraft.

In unison to defend Moscow, the whole Russian people stood up without exaggeration. At the front and in the rear, Moscow was defended by representatives of all nationalities living on its territory, the entire united and invincible people of our vast Motherland.

Even in the morning of December 5, German soldiers tried to look at Moscow windows through their binoculars from the rooftops of villages near Moscow, but, contrary to forecasts of the most experienced German strategist Field Marshal Bock, about the imminent defeat of the Red Army, the troops of the Kalininsky and Western fronts launched a swift counterattack and forced the unknowingly harsh opponent to hastily hastily hurry the invincible enemy in a hurry from the Kalininsky and Western fronts to launch a swift counter-offensive and force the invincible enemy to hastily hastily hurry the invincible harsh counteroffensive in a hurry of the Kalininsky and Western fronts. throwing on the battlefield their dead, weapons and equipment.

The result of competent and swift actions of the Soviet troops, the enemy was thrown a distance of 100-250 km from the capital, the threat of seizing Moscow was completely removed. The first victory in the Great War was won.

Arguing about the significance of this memorable day, the late Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II, whose repose was just at this date, noted: “It is significant that the fascist hordes stopped their inexorable advance under the walls of the sacred capital of Russia, that the turning point in the Moscow battle was accomplished on the day of memory of the holy great Prince Alexander Nevsky - the heavenly defender of the Russian Land ... Perhaps this is the great significance of Orthodox Moscow, which keeps the roots of the tree of Russia in its sacred land statehood, for the moral and spiritual health and prosperity of which each of us is responsible before God and History! ”

Construction of Soviet soldiers in the tank T-34

The calculation of the Soviet 107-mm regimental mountain mortar sample sample 1938 year position

Camouflaged tank KV-1 in forest ambush

Soviet soldiers rest near the front edge

Soviet cavalrymen in the ranks during the battle for Moscow. Winter 1941 - 1942

The officers of one of the Soviet rifle units in the minutes of rest. Winter 1941 - 1942

Soviet gunners in the moments of rest

The calculation of the Soviet anti-tank rifle PTRD-41 on the position

The commander of the 4 (1 of the Guards) Tank Brigade, Major General of the Tank Forces Mikhail Efimovich Katukov (leftmost in the foreground) at the observation post

A company of Soviet skiers listened to the commander during a battle for Moscow. Skiers armed with machine gun PPSH-4

Soviet tank English production "Valentine II" in ambush during the battle for Moscow. The photo was published in the newspaper “Krasnaya Zvezda” No. 275 of 22 in November 1941. The article “To the battle in British tanks” was published on the issue. It described the division of Captain Frost. Stepan Samoilovich Moroz - commander of the 137 tank battalion, killed 7 December 1941. Most likely, this photo was taken exactly at the location of the 137 tank battalion

Soviet artillery crews are preparing to open fire from captured German 50-mm guns 5 cm PaK 38

1st Moscow Separate Detachment of Sailors, formed on the basis of the battalion of protection of the People’s Sea Commissariat fleet (NKMF), pushed through the streets of Moscow to the forefront. The 1st Moscow Separate Detachment of Sailors was part of the Moscow Defense Zone, later converted to the 166th Marine Brigade

Soviet ski battalion advances to the front line

Soviet troops on the march. Counter-offensive of the Soviet troops near Moscow. Winter camouflage is applied on the tank, all the soldiers in camouflage suits

Comments

[makst83]

This day is indicative, the first BIG defeat of the Nazi troops and this happened not somewhere out there, but here, near Moscow! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Out of place, just like that!
And here we have mourning in Perm ..... The fire in the Lame Horse club is the largest in terms of the number of victims in the fire in post-Soviet Russia on 5 on December 2009 in the night club Lame Horse in Perm at Kuibyshev Street 9, and resulting in the death of 156 people. The incident caused a wide public outcry and a harsh reaction from the Russian authorities. In connection with the incident, a number of officials and officials of fire supervision were fired, and the Government of the Perm Territory in full force resigned.
And the worm Anatoly Zak was given 9 years 10 months of the general regime colony, for 156 people .... on 22,5 days for each victim .....

The victims near Moscow were meaningful and necessary, for WAR!

EVERLASTING MEMORY.

[Vadivak]

Quote: ...

English-made Soviet tank Valentine II in an ambush during the battle of Moscow.

According to the stories of veterans, when the Germans saw Moscow and Matilda near Moscow, they certainly were not frightened, but fell into despondency, as they hoped that Russia and England would not grow together

Eternal memory to the Heroes.

[Prometey]

Quote: makst83

This day is indicative, the first BIG defeat of the Nazi troops and this happened not somewhere out there, but here, near Moscow! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

And why, after all, near Moscow, and not near Minsk, for example? Let me be minuscule, but until December 1941 the Red Army wasn’t able to fight, there were no sensible commanders from the company level, but they were filling holes on one or the other. Even in the Soviet film about Zhukov, an episode is shown where the future Marshal of Victory at the height of the Wehrmacht's offensive explains to the generals that there is nothing ingenious in the German strategy - flank attacks from time to time repeated at the junction of the fronts, with subsequent evasion and encirclement. But apparently at first it reached the Soviet military leaders tightly and they could not oppose anything.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Prometey

And why, after all, near Moscow, and not near Minsk, for example?

Because on the night of June 21-22, Pavlov reported to Stalin about the situation in the district from the theater where he was sorry with the women, and not from the headquarters ....

[Uhe]

There is a point of view that the highest general of the USSR army was in collusion, in which Zhukov also participated. It was after the first weeks of the war that Stalin created an investigative committee to investigate the betrayal of generals and other persons, including Khrushchev, reporting exclusively to him and reporting directly on the outcome of the investigation.

By the way, hence the alleged lack of preparedness for the attack, when the crews were dismissed, the planes and tanks were not refueled, although Stalin issued two orders: in May (if I am not mistaken) to bring the troops to combat readiness, and in mid-June - on bringing troops to full combat readiness. And then layoffs, lack of fuel and ammunition - a clear sabotage of the high command. It was not for nothing that the documents were later revealed according to which the "faithful Leninists" in the person of Bukharin, Zinoviev and others were going to agree with the Germans in the event of a war that Trotsky would rule the country, Germany leaves the USSR alone, and in return receives huge territories from the USSR. There was a betrayal, so Hitler planned a blitzkrieg, taking into account the fact that Soviet generals would retreat almost without a fight, but it did not work out. The same Pavlov was quickly banged, showing the others that there would be no jokes, and then Stalin took command of the army and defense personally into his own hands.

[complete zero]

I will not minus, but are you really so right, taking the liberty of talking about "that the Red Army did not know how to fight?" - at least read about the actions of the KChF on the night of June 22, 1941, but there are not so few others formations met the aggressor with dignity (Border of the NKVD unit of the USSR)

[Prometey]

Quote: complete zero

not so few other units met the aggressor with dignity (Border of the NKVD of the USSR)

And I'm not saying that there was no rebuff. Those who met the aggressor in the early days of the war and fought with him until the end of the war - honor and glory. But the fact remains that the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht until 1943 and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.
By the way, the border troops had nothing to do with the Red Army.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Prometey

the Soviet command for the most part in all respects was inferior to the Wehrmacht until 1943

You are sorry, it seems Rezun read.

1. Counterattack near Soltsy in July 1941
2. Yelets offensive operation
3. I wrote about the Danube
4. Tikhvin-Kirishi offensive
5. Rogachev-Zhlobin offensive
6. Smolensk offensive
7. Counterattacks in the areas of Kholm, Staraya Russa
8. The Little Vishera Offensive
9. Bolshekrepinskaya offensive
10 Offensive on the release of Rostov
12 Klinsko-Solnechnogorsk offensive
13 Tula offensive
14 Kaluga offensive

And other operations / Why do you think the Fuhrer in 41 removed from office Guderian, Rundstedt, von Kleist?

[Ascetic]

Fights on the Lviv ledge from June 22 to 30 between Rava-Ruska and Przemysl. By the way to 28 June the Germans defeated the Western Front under the command of Pavlov and took MINSK, at the same time the Germans entered Lviv only 30 June. This is a question of the inability to fight the command staff.

[smersh70]

Quote: Ascetic

This is a question of the inability to fight the command staff.

not because of this yet .. and the thing is that in the Ukrainian direction the Germans didn’t have much compared to the Belarus direction .. and besides, the doctrine was that the Germans would deliver the main blow to Kiev .. even the T-34 was mainly in the South -Western Front ...

[31231]

Belarus in tank-dangerous directions could be blocked without problems then. Someone did it ?!
In general, of course, the swampy Belarus and the Germans, and then we passed extremely quickly.

[Assistant]

In general, of course, the swampy Belarus and the Germans, and then we passed extremely quickly.

Marshy Belarus? For some reason, it always seemed to me that swamps in Belarus were only in the south-west (Polesie), they stretched along the border with Ukraine. But the road and railway networks in Belarus were one of the longest among the regions of the USSR (in terms of the length of the transport network / area of ​​the region), which greatly facilitated the blitzkrieg on its territory. Yes, and the soil is poor in black earth - a WWII car will not get stuck on the field, unless you try hard.

[31231]

To this add Potapov, Kirponos.

[alone]

In the western direction, 2 infantry armies and 2 tank groups were concentrated.
and in the south there was one tank and 3 infantry armies. that is why the swift defeat of the western front and the relative slow offensive in the south. and most importantly in the south there were a lot of mechanized corps of the Red Army and still very skillful actions of the commander of the 5th Army Potapov.

[Liss.]

So, here comes the small initial success.
Plus, the mechanized corps was undeformed and entered into battle in a fragmented manner, without providing replenishment of B / supplies and fuel and lubricants.

[alone]

Quote: Liss.

So, here comes the small initial success.

the only mistake on the southwestern front was that a member of the military council, far from military affairs, corps commissar Vashugin intervened in the plan of the counterattack of the mechanized corps, who forced the corps to attack in parts, as a result of which the Germans defeated the corps, but lost a lot of time. the commissioner who was responsible for this committed suicide after talking with Kirponos.

[smersh70]

Quote: Vadivak

And other operations /

yes, there were such operations .. but they can’t be compared with the operations carried out by the Wehrmacht .... taking entire armies ... fronts .. republics allied in the environment ... mediocrity was at the highest level .... but the troops by the way, it was the NKVD that obeyed the border. By the way, it was obvious that training and education, the fanaticism of the personnel ... but the army, besides the main part of the personnel, were completely profiled .... and about 43-45 years ... they won mainly militias, that is drafted from a citizen, grown men ... so that children, learn .. do not discard the elderly from the register)))))

[Prometey]

Quote: smersh70

Yes, there were such operations .. but they can not be compared with those operations that the Wehrmacht carried out ..

All right. The first successful encirclement of the Germans takes place near Stalingrad, where they were beaten for the first time by their own strategy - flanking attacks and taking into the ring. Apparently, the bitter experience of the first two years of the war was finally learned.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Prometey

The first successful encirclement of the Germans takes place near Stalingrad, where they were beaten for the first time by their own strategy - flanking attacks and taking into the ring.

No, it was the encirclement of Von Kleist near Rostov in 1941. It was there that Timoshenko first used echeloned defense, which was then "invented" by Zhukov near Kursk.

[Poppy]

no, at Stalingrad - the first encirclement, which "put the squeeze" on, and surrounded before that

[complete zero]

and why not compare (the Wehrmacht and ours?) the same counterattack near Moscow — pulling up the reserve itself (moreover, in Abwehr’s ignorance) —that not the operation !?

[smersh70]

Quote: complete zero

the same counterattack near Moscow

You forgot how this counterattack ended - you were surrounded by 3 armies. How many were captured .....

[smersh70]

Quote: smersh70

were surrounded by 3 armies.

so I did not understand, getting the cons))) ... I am to blame for the fact that they were surrounded and completely defeated .. .

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: complete zero

and why not compare (Wehrmacht operations and ours?)

agree
I will consider any operation of the Wehrmacht, especially the one where the Germans break through fortified defense of the Soviet troops.

[pvv113]

BUT HOW LONGLY LACKED - Despite the TIME OF THE YEAR !!!

[Vadivak]

Quote: smersh70

yes, there were such operations .. but they can’t be compared with the operations carried out by the Wehrmacht .... taking entire armies ... fronts .. republics allied in the environment ..

It was the offensive operations of 41 years that inspired the Red Army and showed that a German could be beaten. and then with your words the Russians went ahead with your words "taking entire armies ... fronts ... surrounded by", and the Germans were shown that a grave was prepared for them in Russia
No wonder Hitler was discouraged In the spring of 1941, Field Marshal von Rundstedt, who spent most of the First World War on the Eastern Front, asked Hitler if he knew what it means to invade Russia. Field Marshal von Brauchitsch, the Commander-in-Chief of the German Ground Forces, and his chief of staff, General Halder, dissuaded Hitler from the war with Russia. General Kestring, who had lived in Russia for many years, also knew the country and Stalin himself with the same warnings. Did not listen to the dog ....

Quote: smersh70

but about 43-45years .. the militias were won mainly, that is, adult men called up from the citizen ..

These men about whom you write went through some civilians, some Hassan and Khalgin goals, and some Finnish ones, so they knew how to fight better than other recruits

[smersh70]

Quote: Vadivak

These men about whom you write went through some civilians, some Hassan and Khalgin goals, and some Finnish ones, so they knew how to fight better than other recruits

and I'm talking about .. about the same ....

[svp67]

Quote: Vadivak

These men about whom you write went through some civilians, some Hassan and Khalgin goals, and some Finnish ones, so they knew how to fight better than other recruits

"Recruits" were also worth something ...
Here is a German photo of the summer of 1941. Three of our soldiers courageously repulsed the attacks of the Germans, so much so that after their death they were Germans of the funeral. And if you look closely at the photo, in the background, along the road, several dozen crosses with German helmets on top, the result of the battle ...

[Stas57]

How did you find out who buried whom in the photo?
I see only SS men and our grave, which anyone could have made, but not the "cute boys" from SS

[31231]

Even whole fronts and republics were surrounded ?!
Yeah, nonsense grew stronger.

About the fanaticism of the NKVD: my grandfather went out of Brest as a border guard. He is a hero, but I do not consider him a fanatic. So far they were retreating a small detachment plucking the Germans soundly. And so they would simply be mixed with sand at the outpost with tanks and shells.

[smersh70]

Quote: 31231

whole fronts

... and the South-Western Front ... that he escaped from the encirclement .. out of 520000 people escaped only about 20000 .. the entire leadership was destroyed ... one Baghramyan survived ... Kharkovsky operation. 2 armies were surrounded .. ..

Quote: 31231

republics

The Byelorussian SSR was occupied in 5 DAYS!. Ukrainian. SSR .. Moldavian USSR .. Karelian-Finnish USSR ... 3 Baltic republics ...

Quote: 31231

He is a hero, but a fanatic

but is a fanatic bad or something .... it's like in the USSR they called a scout ... and the same foreign scouts, spies .... ..

[serezhafili]

Do not confuse the militias and the army. The militia (Volkssturm in Germany) are absolutely peaceful people from 17 to 60 years old who, due to tragically prevailing circumstances - the enemy at the gates - were forced to take up arms to help their country ... As a rule, they were very weak trained and in abundance they had only personal courage. They perished by divisions, but against the trained regular army were weaker ... Different weight categories! And here is the army ... In general, there are two types of armies - PEAC - boys of 18-20 years old, who received initial military training and already have some experience, whose task is to hold out until they mobilize the Wartime Army. But these are already 25-45-year-old men with great life experience, and if they are properly trained in military affairs, then this is already a real force! This is an ARMY!

[Prometey]

Quote: Vadivak

You are sorry, it seems Rezun read.

Not read, only in reviews. All these counterattacks before the counterattack near Moscow had no significant influence on the strategic situation and confirms the fact

Quote: Prometey

there were no sensible commanders starting from the company level, and who were they plugged holes on one or the other front.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Prometey

Not read, only in reviews. All these counterattacks before the counterattack near Moscow had no significant influence on the strategic situation.

That's exactly what they did. It was a turning point in the minds of the fighters that Hitler was definitely the end. After 41 caravans from the USA went, that is, they believed in Russia. This is where the real strategy is.

After 41 even matches fired 42 year of Victory

[avt]

Quote: Prometey

All these counterattacks before the counterattack near Moscow had no significant influence on the strategic situation and confirms the fact

Oh how! Even the Germans, not to mention the memories of Zhukov, say that the stubborn resistance Barbarossa was thwarted. Well, of course, they are not a decree. If they were inept in Renoids, the Germans would have come out as planned on the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line and would not blather "insignificant influence" in view of its actual absence. And yet, we fought with the whole "civilized" Europe, do not believe me - read at least Müller-Gtldenbrand, he rather meticulously described the development of the German ground forces in the dynamics of the absorption of countries, not in vain the book was still published in the USSR, though not completely, politically correct something was removed. And in general - not a hell of a sitting in the warmth at the computer, like that in passing through the soldiers' graves.

[Prometey]

Quote: avt

Even the Germans, not to mention Zhukov's recollections, say that Barbarossa was thwarted by stubborn resistance.

Does anyone dispute this? Only the incredible tenacity and courage of the Russian / Soviet people allowed the USSR to survive in 1941-1942.

[eldar2116]

All these counterattacks before the counterattack near Moscow had no significant influence on the strategic situation and confirms the fact

I have not heard more delirium. Surely a rezun victim.
Alright, a simple logical task. If you go, and you are pushed back, or you go and no one pushes you. In which case would you come where you wanted faster?

[Very old]

Ah, not a history teacher born ...
For all the items you FIVE

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: Vadivak

You are sorry, it seems Rezun read.

I do not welcome Rezun (Suvorov), but he usually praises the Soviet commanders ... but the German got it ...

[Prometey]

Quote: zmey_gadukin

I do not welcome Rezun (Suvorov), but he is usually the Soviet commanders

I didn’t read, Rezun, but it seems they wrote that he spoke well about Zhukov

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: Prometey

that he spoke well of Zhukov

conversely

[alone]

Quote: Vadivak

And other operations / Why do you think the Fuhrer in 41 removed from office Guderian, Rundstedt, von Kleist?

because of a counterattack near Moscow. Guderian took off because he arbitrarily gave the order to leave Tula. then after the war, military experts agreed that Guderian was right. Otherwise, the 2nd tank would have been surrounded and would be crushed.

Kleist was withdrawn because it was against the capture of Rostov, because it could not save the city without reserves. As soon as the Soviet Army was hit by Rostov, the kleist also blew the retreat, which allowed to keep the 1st tank.

Rundstedt was withdrawn for supporting Kleist’s decision.

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: Prometey

the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht until 1943 and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.

Tell this to Gudarian near Mosca, Monshtein near Sevastopol and Paulus near Stalingrad. And whoever got stuck near Leningrad there, they changed the commanders, because I don’t write names.

[Prometey]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Tell it to Gudarian near Mosca, Monshtein near Sevastopol and Paulus near Stalingrad

Tell us how they ended up near Moscow, Sevastopol and Stalingrad. Probably thanks to the "genius" military talent of the Red Army. The Prussian king Frederick II spoke correctly in the 18th century, the Russians first give themselves to be beaten well and only then begin to fight.

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: Prometey

Probably thanks to the "genius" military talent of the Red Army.

Now send you in 1941 and put you in the trenches under the tanks with crosses, maybe then the brains will fall into place.

[Prometey]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Now send you in 1941 and put you in the trenches under the tanks with crosses, maybe then the brains will fall into place.

That is, there is nothing to argue with except emotions.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Prometey

That is, there is nothing to argue with except emotions.

I wrote to you already. The strike on ZapVo was successful because of Pavlov's betrayal.

[avt]

Quote: Prometey

That is, there is nothing to argue with except emotions.

What is the question, that is the answer. Believe your statement for an in-depth study of the topic? They threw the phrase, a la Svanidze, that Victory is the Soviet people minus Stalin and his commanding staff, and now they say, give me concrete reasons for it.

[Prometey]

Quote: avt

They threw the phrase a la Svanidze that Victory is the Soviet people minus Stalin and his command staff

I do not see point blank where I generally wrote about Stalin. No need to ascribe to the opponent what he did not say - this is bad manners.

[avt]

Quote: Prometey

But the fact remains that the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht before the 1943 year and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.

Quote: Prometey

I do not see point blank where I generally wrote about Stalin.

There is no specific information about him, I mentioned him because it is impossible to separate the leader from the leadership. So, just in case, appointments to senior positions of "unprepared" commanders did not take place without his knowledge. And if you look at their biography, you will see that almost everyone has experience in fighting and a fairly high level of education. And about bad manners, I will answer this way, first I recommend that you read with concrete facts, historical, fortunately, there are no special problems and quite objective works have appeared, not like Svanidzevsk o-Rezunovsky, where both objective and subjective reasons for a difficult 41 years for us are substantiated in a balanced and reasoned manner with archival references and calculations, then you will not be liberoid propaganda rush and take offense at the sometimes annoyed answers to them. Then we will have a substantive conversation. By the way, there are quite solid materials on the site, look in the archive.

[Prometey]

Quote: avt

calculations, substantiate both objective and subjective reasons for the difficult 41 years for us, then you will not throw liberoid agitators and be offended by the sometimes irritated answers to them.

I was knocked out of emotional balance by this phrase (no offense)

Quote: makst83

the first BIG defeat of the Nazi troops and this did not happen somewhere, but here, near Moscow! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

I asked the question - why the first major defeat of the Wehrmacht does not occur near Minsk and not even near Smolensk, but near Moscow, which is almost a thousand km from the border?

[avt]

Quote: Prometey

I asked the question - why the first major defeat of the Wehrmacht does not occur near Minsk and not even near Smolensk, but near Moscow, which is almost a thousand km from the border?

Bast on firewood, start over. How can one describe the comparison of two armies with a listing of objective and subjective factors of German superiority in two lines? I will try. Well-fed, democratic, not totalitarian, that did not go through the horror of the civil war with its complete destruction of industry, France, with a fully trained, not subjected to purges command staff, and the top leadership are all the victors of the Germans in the First World War. , and even with the Aglitz corps, the Germans were also victorious and the cadres were not repressed, not to mention different Belgians, for some 40 days. This despite the fact that the Wehrmacht was much weaker than by the summer of the 41st, you will find it at Miller-Guildenbrant, very An interesting directory of the Ground Forces, already mentioned.

Quote: Prometey

I was knocked out of emotional balance by this phrase (no offense)

What grievances. Just take a closer look and make sure that about the "inept" put to command posts, almost from the lieutenants in the division, they repeat and hammer into the head exactly liberoids, here is how Svanidze's version that the Soviet people won, but without the leadership of the party and economic Soviet organs and, naturally, without all the interfering Stalin, who in their opinion only commanded detachments with Beria. ”Again, the site's archive should contain very good articles with a fairly solid discussion, giving good links to documents, even in this format.

[smersh70]

Quote: avt

Well-fed, democratic, not totalitarian, but

Yes, to the bulb, what happened in France ..... everyone here is interested in 41 years .. The Red Army had 20000 tanks versus 4000 .. planes. artillery .. there are more personnel than the Wehrmacht .. but rather than a chip .. .and across the territory the Wehrmacht went through the USSR faster than in France (given the distance that the Wehrmacht traveled in France) .... at the same time .. the NKVD troops small fought better than the infantry ... it means it was a mediocre leadership Red Army ...

[avt]

Quote: smersh70

Yes, to the bulb, what happened there in France ..... here everyone is interested in 41 years.

Well, this is straight on Mlechinskiy, in the liberoid way, as soon as you don't like the comparison, but in general, everything is learned in comparison, there and then such a well-reasoned cry about a light bulb begins. And vice versa, if someone mentions a special path, Russia in particular , there and then the giggle begins about what such a path is when everything obeys the same laws of development.

[eldar2116]

He is deliberately trying to defame our heroes. What to explain to him, the profession is such - to betray the homeland

[Prometey]

Quote: eldar2116

Mr. deliberately trying to defame our heroes.

Seeing traitors around is a sign of paranoia.

[smersh70]

Quote: eldar2116

about trying to defame our heroes. H

You say - who is not with us .. that is against us))). No one speaks against the heroes ... you need to figure it out without mold .. without lies ..... objectively. What happened ....

[morpex]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

who is bogged down near Leningrad, t

V. von Leeb, G. von Küchler, K.G. Mannergem, A. Munoz Grandes. The last two commanded the Finnish and Spanish groups respectively.

[complete zero]

(Prometheus) -that the PV had nothing to do with the Red Army (I am aware of May 28, this is my holiday too), I gave an example without dividing the Armed Forces into departments, moreover, Germany (again, I do not divide into their departments) and confirmed until the end of the war its highest level of planning operations (this is about their command), but the fact that we "did not know how to fight" is not true, too many factors did not work in our favor in the first period of the war.

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: Prometey

the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht until 1943 and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.

1. name at least one operation in Europe, equal in scale, the number of technology-people in Moscow. And in terms of resistance, so to speak.
The entire Wehrmacht war in Europe was a festive pokatushka on tanks, compared with the Moscow and generally war in the USSR.
2. The Soviet command had experience, including the experience of the winter war in difficult natural and geographical conditions. Germany and had no such experience.

[Prometey]

Quote: zmey_gadukin

Soviet commanding had experience, including the experience of the winter war in difficult natural and geographical conditions. Germany and had no such experience.

That is, if not for winter, the Wehrmacht would not have stopped?

[morpex]

Quote: Prometey

That is, if not for winter, the Wehrmacht would not have stopped?

No, it’s simpler. The Wehrmacht first met with a deeply echeloned defense and couldn’t figure it out. I’m sure. If you had time to prepare something like this on the border, there would be a completely different picture of the war .. Does the example of the Brest Fortress tell you something?

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: morpex

.Wermacht first met with defense in depth

The Wehrmacht never and never broke through the prepared defense
unlike the Red Army

[Amfitsion]

Southern face of the Kursk Bulge? Recall how much greater our advantage was there, and what did the Germans do with this advantage? And most importantly, with what losses?

[Liss.]

Rate the whole picture:

Red Army

Losses during the defense of July 5-23, 1943:

1. Personnel:

irrevocable - 70.330 people

sanitary, captivity - 107.670 people

2. Tanks - 1.614 pcs.

3. Aircraft - 459 pcs.

Counteroffensive July 12 - August 23, 1943:

1. Personnel:

irrevocable - 184.670 people

sanitary, captivity - 497.330 people

2. Tanks - 4.446 pcs.

3. Aircraft - 1.171 pcs.



Wehrmacht

Losses July 5-23, 1943:


1.Personnel: 70.000 people

2. Tanks - 2.952 pcs.

3.Airplanes - 1.392 pcs



July 12 - August 23, 1943:

1.Personnel - 430.000 people

2.Tanks - 1.500 pcs

3. Aircraft - 2.308 pcs.

[Amfitsion]

Krivosheevsky bullshit should not be pushed.



The combat report of the Voronezh Front No. 01398 General Staff of the losses from July 4 to July 22:

Killed - 20.577
Missing - 25.898
Captured - 29
Total irretrievable loss of life - 46.504
Wounded - 54.427
Total casualties - 100.931.

Tanks and self-propelled guns - 1.628
Guns and mortars - 3.609
Aircraft - 387 (with crashed).

And this is only one thing, the Voronezh Front. He alone lost more tanks than all three fronts along Krivosheev.
Regarding the German losses, he laughs so much ...

[Liss.]

Guilty, I admit. The ratio of losses in the Kursk defensive operation is almost 4: 1.

[smersh70]

Quote: morpex

An example of the same Brest Fortress tells you something?

Here is an example of my beloved Brest Fortress, an indicator of mediocrity. 2 divisions stuck in the fortress ... and the gates there were only one. One tank and a pool. .. why the major led the defense .. when at least a mass of colonels in the division ... the fact is that the heads of the divisions immediately flowed away ... wherever they look ...

[alone]

Hurricane hello! This is not even a matter of mediocrity. When Hitler was preparing to capture England, the chief of the General Staff of the 16th Army of the Wehrmacht, E. Marx, was asked to create a plan for attacking the USSR. Marx prepared the following plan: He created one
the strike group near the borders of Ukraine and proposed to advance to Rostov and then turn abruptly to Moscow, forcing all the forces of the Red Army to fight on an inverted front. Soviet intelligence obtained information and transmitted to Moscow, and in December 1940, at a meeting, it was decided to consider Ukraine the main direction of the enemy’s strike. the main forces were concentrated in the south and south-west direction.
And do not forget that the Red Army was an offensive army and it was believed that the war would be fought on someone else's territory. In the then doctrine of the then Red Army there was no concept of defensive war. Therefore, such failures.
all you have to do is recall “Directive No. 3” signed by the USSR people's commissar of defense Marshal Timoshenko, chief of the general staff of the USSR Zhukov and member of the high military council Malenkov, ordering “to inflict a powerful counterattack” on the enemy and destroy the Polish cities of Suwalki and Lublin by June 24.
Imagine, the war began, it is still unknown where the direction of the enemy’s main strike is, and similar directives go to the fronts. The initial defeat was due to the fact that instead of commanders and chiefs of staff, troops began to act on the members of the Military Councils, which forced the commanders and commanders to act outside the law war. One Mehlis of what it cost, wherever he goes, everywhere he changed the command structure, accusing the polls of treason.

[smersh70]

Quote: lonely

then in the army, instead of commanders and chiefs of staff, members of the Military Councils began to act

here is YOU and mediocrity .... and we about it .....

Quote: lonely

One Mehlis was worth it,

which he didn’t do. in the Navy and in the NKVD troops ... because there were professional leaders ...

Quote: lonely

all you need to remember is “Directive No. 3”

of these directives was in bulk .... though the very latest is subsidized on June 18 - where it is clearly written — the troops will be put on high alert ... and the TASS statement was primarily Hitler’s probe ... Stalin, Like a former urka .... professional - the beast in a good sense of the word clearly caught the opponent in actions and in words (this is a habit, Developed by comfort, who was in prison) ...

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: Prometey

That is, if not for winter, the Wehrmacht would not have stopped?

not "if it were winter", but it is necessary to prepare for winter
if the German generals had brains, they would not have climbed to Russia at all
Yes, and what about the German experience in modern warfare?

[stoqn477]

Quote: zmey_gadukin

Quote: Prometey

That is, if not for winter, the Wehrmacht would not have stopped?

not "if it were winter", but it is necessary to prepare for winter
if the German generals had brains, they would not have climbed to Russia at all
Yes, and what about the German experience in modern warfare?

The Wehrmacht is subordinate to Hitler; he ordered for the offensive, not the generals. I have no memory reading somewhere, his generals had a desire for war with the USSR.

[Hudo]

Quote: stoqn477

The Wehrmacht is subordinate to Hitler; he ordered for the offensive, not the generals. I have no memory reading somewhere, his generals had a desire for war with the USSR.

This, for the most part, is so, because the general has more brain drain than the corporal. But in fact carrying out without desire the orders of the possessed adolf, the Wehrmacht generals fought as they could - but they were able to say well.

[zmey_gadukin]

Quote: stoqn477

he ordered for the offensive, not the generals.

And why didn’t they refuse in an ultimatum form?
There was someone Rokossovsky who refused to carry out the order of Stalin himself, and even Zhukov in addition. And nothing. Star of the hero and the Order of the chest. Dare was a man and smart. And you about orders ... UTB prevented the German generals from slamming the door and resigning? None. And the generals did not shoot in Germany, unlike the USSR.

[morpex]

Quote: Prometey

But the fact remains that the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht before the 1943 year and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.

I will answer you with the words of the Germans themselves.
1. G. Blumentrit

The memory of Napoleon’s Great Army haunted us like a ghost. The book of memoirs of Napoleonic General Kolenkur, always lying on the table of Field Marshal von Kluge, became his bible. There were more and more coincidences with the events of 1812. But these elusive omens faded in comparison with the period of the mud or, as it is called in Russia, the debauchery, which now haunted us like a plague.
Now it was important for the political leaders of Germany to understand that the days of the blitzkrieg were gone. We were opposed by the army, which in its combat qualities was much superior to all other armies that we had ever encountered on the battlefield.
7. Otto Skorzeny

The Reich’s war strategy was better, our generals had a stronger imagination. However, starting with the rank-and-file soldier and to the company commander, the Russians were equal to us - courageous, resourceful, gifted disguise. They fiercely resisted and were always ready to sacrifice their lives ... Russian officers, from the division commander and lower, were younger and more determined than ours. From October 9 to December 5, the Reich division, the 10th Panzer Division and other parts of the 16th Tank Corps lost 40 percent of the staff. Six days later, when our positions were attacked by newly arrived Siberian divisions, our losses exceeded 75 percent.
Do not grind nonsense ...

[zmey_gadukin]

+ You Marine!

[Vadivak]

Quote: complete zero

Yes, not so few other compounds met the aggressor with dignity

Absolutely right.
At dawn, June 22, 1941. Romanian-German aviation bombed cities, airfields and military installations, Romanian assault groups forced the Prut River and tried to capture bridges and bridgeheads. During the period of June 22-23, five bridgeheads were captured, and fierce battles broke out to destroy them.

By June 25, four bridgeheads had been liquidated, the Romanian troops were able to with great difficulty keep only one bridgehead in the area of ​​Skulyan. Moreover, on 25 and 26 on June, the Soviet Danube Flotilla (Commander Rear Admiral N.O. Abramov), together with the ground forces operating at the mouth of the Danube, managed to successfully land the Danube landing, force the Danube and occupy a large bridgehead along the Romanian coast (76 front).

[Corsair]

Quote: Vadivak

Moreover, on 25 and 26 on June, the Soviet Danube Flotilla (Commander Rear Admiral N.O. Abramov), together with the ground forces operating at the mouth of the Danube, managed to successfully land the Danube landing, force the Danube and occupy a large bridgehead along the Romanian coast (76 front).

+ to this, the active and decisive actions of the PV and the Red Army led to the seizure of the German part of the city of Przemyshl from our control, actually transferring the fighting to the territory of the Reich.
Where the command responsibly reacted to the Stalin directive to strengthen combat readiness, undoubted success was achieved, however fading against the background of a lot of miscalculations, mistakes and inaction.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Corsair

under our control the German part of the city of Przemysl, actually transferring hostilities to the territory of the Reich.

NKVD border troops were operating there, and guides with dogs found firing points before the Germans had time to open fire, and two !!! Soviet tanks in skilled hands, successfully supported the border guards during the capture of Peremydl.

[Liss.]

Grandfather Volkov Martyan Petrovich, born in 1912, was called up on July 19, 1941, died on February 02, 1942 near Voskresensk.
If you will, I’ll discuss with my bell tower, no offense:

Quote: Prometey

there were no sensible commanders starting from the company level, and who were they plugged holes on one or another front

The commanders (at the beginning of the WWII) did not have independence in the implementation of decisions of a higher headquarters It is superfluous in a peaceful life regulated by charters and directives, but is necessary in war.
I will explain:
- the front commander determined not only the defense zone of armies, divisions, dropping down to the regiments, depriving the lower commanders of the opportunity to maneuver with forces and means. "Order-" Not a step back. "
-Germans set a combat mission, allocated forces and means for its implementation, providing lower-level initiative for its solution.
Agree that the "platoon" can better see where to install the machine gun than the battalion commander on the map.

Quote: Prometey

Even in the Soviet film about Zhukov, an episode is shown where the future Marshal of Victory at the height of the Wehrmacht’s offensive explains to the generals that there is nothing ingenious in the German strategy - flank attacks from time to time repeated at the front of the front, followed by circumvention and encirclement.

Well this is a movie stamp. Walking around and surrounding is impossible without flanking attacks. Truth learned before historical materialism. Comrade A. Macedon used.

Quote: Prometey

But apparently at first it reached the Soviet military leaders tightly and they could not oppose anything.

In order to contrast, you must have the strength.
Forces were lost in 3 "catastrophes" of the initial period of the Second World War.

[Liss.]

Quote: full zero

at least read about the actions of the KChF on the night of June 22, 1941, but not so few other connections that the aggressor met with dignity (Border part of the NKVD of the USSR)

Navy command showed independence, which was shown contrary to the higher command. (see above)

Quote: smersh70

Yes, there were such operations .. but they can not be compared with those operations that the Wehrmacht carried out ...

The Wehrmacht carried out strategic operations in order to destroy Cr.Ar. Kr.Ar. (for lack of forces) carried out the indicated tactical operations in order to prevent the destruction of Cr. Who achieved the strategic goal?

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Tell it to Gudarian near Mosca, Monshtein near Sevastopol and Paulus near Stalingrad

Quote: Prometey

And you tell us how they all turned out to be near Moscow, Sevastopol and Stalingrad

If without emotion it is very simple that the former conducted offensive operations, the latter - defensive.
Who is more successful? Probably the one who had a banquet on the occasion of the Victory.

Quote: Prometey

By the way, the border troops had nothing to do with the Red Army.

Quote: smersh70

... but the border troops, by the way, were subordinate precisely to the NKVD. Immediately it was visible preparation and training, fanaticism of the personnel ...

Quote: full zero

Prometheus) -that the PVs were not related to the Red Army (I am aware of this holiday on May 28),

Border troops, border detachments are not an operational tactical unit.
They do not even apply to border cover troops.
The main unit in the PV outpost.
The outposts took up a battle "to defend the border" and delayed the German offensive, where for an hour, where for a day, where more. Eternal glory to the heroes, they defended the border to the last, according to their mission.
Before the attack, the Germans were not considered a source of resistance at all.
The significance of the Moscow strategic offensive operation is that the enemy was driven back from Moscow.
It was an operation to push back the ave, in the absence of an advantage for the advancing forces and means.

[Liss.]

Quote: smersh70

... but the army team, besides the main part of the staff ... completely profiled .... but about 43-45 years .. the militias were the main winners, that is, grown men called up from the citizen ... so children, study .. Do not discard the elderly from the register)))))

- the war ended not on June 28, 1941, but on May 9.05.1945, XNUMX.
- divisions of the people's militia were formed from 07.1941. on 12.1941, "military enlistment office-rifle-into battle" is about 1941.
Troops participated in the offensives, trained, reorganized and accepted replenishment. That those who took the battle did not reach the Victory, said that it was bloody, but did not say that those who followed them entered the battle, putting aside the hammer and sickle .

[smersh70]

Quote: Liss.

militia divisions formed

I'm not talking about them .. comrade ...... they were only during the defense of Moscow .. and then older. of military age .... and military age was ahead of schedule .. first in 1905 .. and then in 1899 .... and the personnel army almost all died or was captured ...... give you the figures for losses for 41 years. .. I hope you can deduct ..........

[Liss.]

Your words are offensive to me, comrade! While Muscovites were deciding what to do with the divisions of the people's militia, in Leningrad, the DND was included in the army. So this is not exclusively and not a Moscow invention.
Comrade, what do you consider a "cadre army"?
Exclusively to persons who wore epaulettes 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX on the western border of the USSR?
I will tell you a terrible military secret - in addition to the western special military districts in the USSR (like a sharpie up his sleeve), there were districts to the east. Siberian divisions are not divisions of Nanai reindeer herders and Yakut sable hunters.
"Dembeley" from the Red Army lo 21.06.1941 you do not consider "personnel"? Did they exchange their military specialties and skills on demobilized trains for vodka?
I’ll make you laugh, I guess, but the draftees still got solo military training. Then it was fashionable to go to OSOAVIAHIM.
The cropped units were also engaged in something, like playing Zarnitsa before the introduction of the General Conscription.

In addition, there is a term "combat coordination" of units.
During this period, the fighter prepares alone, actions in the squad, platoon, etc. As far as the combat situation allows.
Further, not all parts got a dashing share of being surrounded and destroyed.
Many battered units were taken out for re-formation and replenished with new fighters. From this they lost their "staffing"?
Regarding the service of older ages. So today, a private card registered with the military enlistment office until being 45 years old is stored.
The stock category is changing, the shelf life is set.
It’s clear that at 44, it’s hard to jump with a parachute, but his health allows him to pack. Well, there to cook the porridge, hammer the tape with cartridges, and wait. Already in WWI, there were 1 fighter for 1 warring man.
Yeah, I can subtract.
Just keep in mind that the years 1899-1905 were not entirely successful. There is imperialist war, civil. Squinted people. And fertility to hell ...

[serezhafili]

The war ended on 2.09.45 ...

[cyberspace]

Quote: Liss.

The Navy command showed independence, which was shown contrary to the higher command. (See above)

From the memoirs of admiral N.G. Kuznetsova, then Commissar of the Navy of the USSR:

“... Later I learned that the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff were summoned on June 21 at about 17 pm to see IV Stalin.
Consequently, already at that time, under the weight of irrefutable evidence, a decision was made: to bring the troops into full combat readiness and, in case of an attack, repel it. So, all this happened about eleven hours before the actual invasion of the enemy on our land.
Not so long ago I had a chance to hear from Army General I.V. Tyulenev - at that time he commanded the Moscow Military District - that on June 21, at about 2 pm, I.V. Stalin called him and demanded to increase the combat readiness of air defense.
This confirms once again: in the afternoon of June 21, JV Stalin recognized a clash with Germany, if not inevitable, then very, very likely. This is confirmed by the fact that that evening Moscow leaders A.S. Shcherbakov and V.P. Pronin were summoned to see J.V. Stalin. According to Vasily Prokhorovich Pronin, Stalin ordered this Saturday to detain the secretaries of the district committees in their places and forbid them to leave the city. "A German attack is possible," he warned. It is a pity that the remaining hours were not used to their maximum efficiency ... "
"... At about 11 pm the phone rang. I heard the voice of Marshal S. K. Timoshenko:
- There is very important information. Come to me. He quickly put the latest data on the situation in the fleets into a folder and, having called Alafuzov, went with him. Vladimir Antonovich took the cards with him. We expected to report the situation on the seas. ..
Our people's commissariats were located in the neighborhood. We went outside. The rain ended, the couple again walked along the sidewalk, danced somewhere very close, and the sounds of the gramophone burst from the open window. A few minutes later we were already climbing up to the second floor of a small mansion, where S.K. Timoshenko’s office was temporarily located.
Marshal, walking around the room, dictated. It was still hot. Army General G.K. Zhukov was sitting at the table and was writing something. In front of him lay several filled sheets of a large pad for radiograms. It can be seen that the People's Commissar of Defense and the chief of the General Staff worked for quite some time.
Semyon Konstantinovich noticed us, stopped. Briefly, without mentioning the sources, he said that Germany’s attack on our country was considered possible.
Zhukov got up and showed us the telegram that he had prepared for the border districts. I remember it was voluminous - on three sheets. It laid out in detail what should be done to the troops in the event of an attack by Nazi Germany.
This telegram did not concern the fleets directly. Having run through the text of the telegram, I asked: - Is it allowed to use weapons in case of an attack?
- Allowed.
I turn to Rear Admiral Alafuzov:
- Run to the headquarters and immediately give the fleets an indication of complete actual readiness, that is, readiness number one. Run!
There was no time to speculate whether it was convenient for the admiral to run along the street. Vladimir Antonovich ran, I myself lingered another minute, clarified whether I understood correctly that the attacks could be expected that night. Yes, right, on the night of June 22. And she has already come! ..

[Liss.]

Quote: siber

This telegram did not concern the fleets directly. Having run through the text of the telegram, I asked: “Is it allowed to use weapons in case of an attack?” “Allowed.
I turn to Rear Admiral Alafuzov

All right, Kuznetsov contrary to the attitude "not to give in to provocations" ...
Without a directive, even which did not mention the Navy ...
Brave man ...
He did not spare himself for the sake of the Fleet, for which he suffered more than once.
The real hero.

[Prometey]

Quote: Liss.

If you will, I’ll discuss with my bell tower, no offense:

One of the few reasoned comments.

Quote: Liss.

The commanders (at the beginning of the WWII) did not have independence in the implementation of the decisions of the higher headquarters. It is superfluous in peaceful life, regulated by charters and directives, but necessary in the war.
I will explain:
- the front commander determined not only the defense zone of armies, divisions, dropping down to the regiments, depriving the lower commanders of the opportunity to maneuver with forces and means. "Order-" Not a step back. "
-Germans set a combat mission, allocated forces and means for its implementation, providing lower-level initiative for its solution.
Agree that the "platoon" can better see where to install the machine gun than the battalion commander on the map.

Then tell me what I wrote seditious? The fact that the main commanders of the Red Army in 1941 did not have experience of military operations and naturally they were inferior in training and experience to the Wehrmacht command staff? And what experience was already gained at the cost of bloody battles and stubborn battles?

[Liss.]

I did not say that you wrote sedition.
You just wanted to give a tough assessment, but you hurt her for the sick of many members of the forum.
"The dead have no shame."
You argued that the Red Army "had no intelligent commanders" at the beginning of the war. So they were stupid - "they didn't know, they didn't know how."
I did not agree, they were, they were just connected in their initiative.
Frontal counterattacks, when the commander in front with a gun on the machine gun is heroism, of course, but often it is the heroism of hopelessness.
The heroism of sacrifice is in the name of, and for Victory, the number of stars on the plane and the tank and the number of nicks on the butt are more important.
And our commanders understood this quite quickly.
And at first, even Voroshilov counterattacked.
If you wrote about training, experience, even about theoretical training, I would agree.
And the experience was gained by the commanders and their superiors, which means they were not stupid.
What is good in peacetime is destructive in war. Efficiency and discipline in the assessment of commanders went by the wayside, and the combat mission and destruction of the enemy by any means went forward.
It’s just that you probably also know from life that who is good in routine work is not always good in extreme circumstances.

[amigo1969]

We are all strategists here, sitting in warm chairs at the computer !! Think for a minute about what was going on in the souls of the generals, officers and soldiers at that moment ... Despite the mistakes and tactical miscalculations, the offensive operation near Moscow was brilliant. Yes, at the cost of a lot of blood! Yes, great human and material sacrifices .. But the Wehrmacht of 1941 is the most powerful army in the world at that time and its first serious "jamb" is the defeat near Moscow. It was our ancestors who knocked the golden crown off the Germans (my grandfather was a participant in this battle, he was seriously wounded). After this battle, our soldier realized that the German was also made of meat and bones, and that German equipment was being successfully destroyed by our weapons. Belief in Victory - that's what the BATTLE near MOSCOW gave.

[eldar2116]

If we didn’t know how to fight, we would have lost that war. No need to try to show your creativity and fresh thinking. We have enough Mikhalkov

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Prometey

but until December 1941, the Red Army wasn’t able to fight,

You’ve got a bad phrase, Sergey.
Just shitty.

If you want to say something about the heavy battles and retreats of 41, then try to express your thoughts differently and RESPECT the memory of those who were there.

[Prometey]

Quote: Aleks tv

You’ve got a bad phrase, Sergey.

I agree, rudely, of course, and may not have expressed my idea in the first place. My main opinion came down to the fact that the Red Army commanding staff did not for the most part possess the experience of maneuver warfare that the Wehrmacht had. Hence the sad results of the initial period of the war.

[misljachii]

read the history and biographies of military people more closely

[Uhe]

Zhukov did not need to explain the rest of the generals German tactics, because the Blitzkrieg tactics, the use of tanks in battle and the like were developed by the Germans together with our generals in the mid-30s;) By the way, the Soviet troops were the first to use the blitzkrieg against the Chinese, defeating three (or so) by the thousands of soldiers, the Chinese army of 150 thousand and another 50 thousand White Guards. And the Germans prepared the troops for the Chinese;) And the Germans also built fortifications. Funny right?

Ours knew how to fight, but there are many reasons for "defeat" in the first months of the war. The main one: the German army was the strongest army in the world, which had conquered all of Europe before; the whole of Europe worked for it and many European peoples fought against the USSR. And for the USSR it was the first - the first! - a war of this magnitude. And many more large and small factors.

"Defeat" in quotes, because strategically we defeated them already in July 41, destroying the blitzkrieg plan, which the German generals understood perfectly well and what they wrote about it in their diaries. The USSR applied from part the same tactics that Kutuzov used against Napoleon. In many ways, this tactic had to be applied not at will, but based on the situation, but it worked. So it is precisely "defeat", not defeat. Tactical retreat and frustration of enemy plans of attack is a victory, albeit tactical.

[Vadim2013]

Quote: Prometey

... until December 1941 of the year, the Red Army wasn’t able to fight, there were no sensible commanders from the company level, but they were plugging holes on one or the other front ...

In the civil war and as a result of repression destroyed the officer corps of Russia. And Germany has retained its officer corps.

[Vadim2013]

[quote = Prometey] [quote = makst83] ... but until December 1941, the Red Army wasn’t able to fight, there were no sensible commanders from the company level, but they were filling holes on one or the other. .. [/ quote]
In the civil war and as a result of repression destroyed the officer corps of Russia. And Germany has retained its officer corps.

[pensioner]

I join the fellow countryman. Himself from Gubakha. This news found me at one time on a business trip in the Arkhangelsk region. Let's call a friend in Perm right away. He has three children. Two love to run around the clubs ... Managed ...

[Ols76]

EVERLASTING MEMORY!

[shitovmg]

My grandfather in 41 near Rzhev received the first serious wound. They could stop such a colossus !!! The Germans were strong until the last day of the war, the higher the glory of our soldier !!!

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: shitovmg

My grandfather in 41 near Rzhev received the first serious wound.

And my grandfather was (will) be wounded tomorrow December 6th. He remained disabled and then worked as an engineer.

[Cthulhu]

ETERNAL MEMORY to our grandfathers !!! Mine will die in March 42. His mother has never seen him. They were drafted into the army on November 27, 1939, their mother was just 10 days old when she was one year old.

[amigo1969]

..and my grandfather was wounded on January 30, 1942 near Rzhev. All sat in one trench. THANKS TO GRANDFATES!

[alone]

my grandfather died in the 43rd metro station near Smolensk. Eternal Memory to all the dead!

[Alexander Romanov]

Prometey put a minus to my grandfather because he was wounded near Moscow, well, you're done *****

[hommer]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Prometey put a minus to my grandfather because he was wounded near Moscow, well, you're done *****

Sasha, I agree. I saw such dead yesterday on euronews in the frame about the Kiev events. They walked, trampled the Soviet Red Flag, with ... ki!
Already the heart sank, well, none of the crowd of maydanuty ran up, did not raise the flag, p ... did not weigh!
I am also the grandson of a front-line soldier, my mother was born on September 11, 1941, my grandfather was called up in August. So he never saw his daughter.

[Prometey]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

Prometey put a minus to my grandfather

For that minus, I apologized. Many, for sure, missed here in puffs.

[aszzz888]

It is very difficult to assess or overestimate the significance of that counteroffensive near Moscow. Who knows what would have happened without casting nemchuru from Moscow. There is no doubt about the Victory, but it claimed an unpredictable number of lives. Glory to the Soviet, Russian weapons, and most importantly, Glory to all the soldiers and who participated, and forged this victory!

[Kulneff2009]

The great feat of the great people! Eternal memory to the fallen! Glory to the Soviet soldiers who forged victory over the enemy!

[AnpeL]

Glory to the victorious warriors !!!

[Apollo]

The feat of the heroes of the victors of the war veterans will forever remain in our hearts. A low bow to all of you.

[Landwarrior]

For the attack on the USSR, Hitler did not develop the Barbarossa plan, as historians mistakenly believe, but the Barberry plan. It is based on the simple principle of candy. First you quickly unfold, then you suck for a long, long time ...
This I mean, near Moscow "Barbarossa" was turned into "Barberry".

[Thunderbolt]

The film "The rout of Nazi troops near Moscow" caused a huge political resonance in the country and abroad. Long lines of people wishing to watch a film about the first crushing defeat in the Second World War before this invincible Hitler army lined up at the entrance to the cinemas.
A documentary about the battle of Moscow confirmed the vitality of the Soviet state. The creators of this film were awarded this film by the State Prize. The American Film Academy recognized the film “The rout of Nazi troops near Moscow” as the best film of 1942.

[ammunition]

Dear Readers Please pay attention to this fact: -
On the 5 of December of the 1931 of the year, the Temple of Christ, the Savior and deliverer of the invasion of all of Europe, led by Napoleon, was blown up.
On the 5 of December of the 1941 of the year, all of Europe again stood near Moscow.
-----
Exactly ten years. Before the attack, Stalin ordered Moscow to fly around with the icon of the Tikhvin Mother of God. And only after that our first serious offensive began.

[Prometey]

Quote: ammunition

Before the attack, Stalin ordered Moscow to fly around with the icon of the Tikhvin Mother of God.

This myth is still no documentary evidence.

[ammunition]

Quote: Prometey

This myth is still no documentary evidence.

Here is the article link. Under which is a complete list of documents. Information is repeatedly and cross-confirmed.
http://stalinism.ru/stalin-i-tserkov/voyna-tserkov-stalin-i-mitropolit-iliya.htm

l

PS. do not forget the letter l that jumped out of the line)

[Stas57]

Not a single serious confirmation, not a single document, the whole story at the level of OBS.

[series]

when enough reserves were accumulated for counterattack, and the Germans went on the defensive, it was possible to fly around Moscow with bare ass ... the result would be the same!
or when attacking Moscow, the Germans did not have a single icon in the churches of Minsk, Mogilev, Smolensk, etc. cities and villages ???
Let’s without stupid obscurantism ...
The country's leadership was able to organize a rebuff, thanks to the selfless struggle of the Soviet people with the invaders
"conscious" belief in something supernaturally inexplicable, this is a mental deviation from reality ...

[ammunition]

Quote: S-200

when enough reserves were accumulated for counterattack,

At the time of December 5. All tanks were available at 10 (ten) times less than June 22.
Aviation - 6 (six) times less than the 22 of June.
Artillery - in 3 (three) times less.
--------
But I do not want and will not argue. If you consider a mental disability. Count on health.
I hope those who have been in heavy trouble will understand me. And who climbed out of serious wounds.

[series]

Quote: ammunition

But I do not want and will not argue. If you consider a mental disability. Count on health.
I hope those who have been in heavy trouble will understand me. And who climbed out of serious wounds.

in such situations, and I remembered about God ...
FEAR + despair in a stressful situation hypertrophies the psyche (for a while)

[ammunition]

There is no fear or despair among the guards. ((It’s not about remembering God. Unfortunately .. it’s about falling into a greater reality than this .. with educated atheism.
I repeat - Ask those who crawled out grave wounds. If .. tell.

[series]

Quote: ammunition

At the time of December 5. All tanks were available at 10 (ten) times less than June 22.
Aviation - 6 (six) times less than the 22 of June.
Artillery - in 3 (three) times less.

and you take an interest in a similar situation, at the time of the outbreak of war:
the Germans were at times inferior to the Red Army in both tanks and aircraft ...
Obviously, it is necessary to consider the superiority of forces and means at the forefront of the strike (in the attacked / defended sector of the front), the correct design of the offensive (defensive) operation, the training and coherence of units and formations, etc. "attributes" of military science

in desperate critical situations, and I thought of God ...
it is natural for the human psyche in a stressful state

[Ascetic]

The selection of photographs is good in the article. Especially the faces of our soldiers are open, direct gaze without a shadow of despondency or doubt. At the beginning of the video, German tanks on December 1, the last offensive from the area of ​​the village of Gorki to Lobnya. There they would be met by anti-aircraft gunners deploying their guns in direct fire from the 864th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment of the 1st Air Defense Corps. Powerful anti-aircraft gun fire stopped the enemy. The Nazis retreated. A day later, they tried to attack again. Enemy tanks began to descend into the hollow from the village of Nesterikhi, now included in the city limits. The heroes of the anti-aircraft gunners fought the fascists staunchly. One after another, enemy tanks failed, and the enemy retreated. On the map in the video-Krasnaya Polyana, from where the Germans were going from long-range guns to fire at Moscow. It was here that an episode from the film "Battle for Moscow" German generals viewed the Kremlin through binoculars. Now a monument has been erected at the site of the battle - an anti-aircraft gun on a pedestal.

[La-5]

Great photos in the article.

[Poppy]

great photo
I would like to make a couple of comments on the signatures:
- in the 41st year there could not be officers even in rifle regiments, only commanders
- Well, the skiers there are not with PPSh-4, but with PPSh-41, but this is apparently just a typo

[amigo1969]

About officers - this is a stone in my garden)))) ... I know perfectly well that before 1943 there were commanders and Red Army soldiers .. He wrote deliberately for a wide audience ..

[complete zero]

The courageous generation bowed low to them, only the GREAT PEOPLE could break such a colossus in a matter of days trampling Europe (pathos, of course, but I can not do otherwise)

[Aleks tv]

GREAT DEATH ...

It was made when the whole world had already buried the USSR.
Adoration of the Heroes.

Thanks for the very good photos in the article.

Here's another thing:
Battle for Moscow. 1941 One of the first banners of invaders thrown to the Mausoleum in 45:
clickable.

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: Aleks tv

Battle for Moscow. 1941 One of the first banners of invaders thrown to the Mausoleum in 45:

This is like the flag of the German Navy of that time.

[series]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

This is like the flag of the German Navy of that time.

means (to Moscow) ....Did not reach !

[Thunderbolt]

These drowned under Yelnya

[Ascetic]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

This is like the flag of the German Navy of that time.

This is the single military flag of the Third Reich in 1935-1945.

.

There was no separate flag for Kriegsmarine under Hitler, more precisely, it existed from 1933 until the adoption of the Single Military Flag in 1935.

There were only Admiral flags and banners for coastal divisions and marines.
Gross admiral flag
Grossadmiralsflagge

Kriegsmarine Banner

There were such pennants on the ships

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: Ascetic

This is the single military flag of the Third Reich in 1935-1945

I don’t know, there were other well-known

[Ascetic]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

I don’t know, there were other well-known

That's right, the flag is single, including for the Navy. They generally had a bunch of all kinds of flags, for Hitler attached great importance to heraldry. Everyone has it an official had its own standard, but there were no separate flags of arms and types of troops. There was a single military flag that is in the photo. In the Luftwaffe, for example, there was even a flag of the Luftwaffe officer. There was a flag of an exemplary factory, flags of the camps of the German Labor Front (separately both male (Horst Wessel) and female). I am silent about the party NSDAP and the SS where there was even a flag of a company of Hitler’s personal bodyguards. In general, by flags and identification marks, they themselves unwittingly rendered great help to our scouts. In short, almost every acne in the Nazis had its own sign or flag.
Here for example civil flag of a retired navy officer

[Alexander Romanov]

Quote: Ascetic

That's right, the flag is single, including for the Navy

Stanislav, where did you find such a flag, I didn’t see one at all. And the Kringsmarin flag is the same everywhere. Here is the standard

[Ascetic]

This is the standard Navy Inspector General not the Kriegsmarine flag. In Russia now, too, each military commander has a standard and has flags of the Navy, SV, and VVS. The Nazis did not have any military flags; there was a single military flag of the Reich.
Catch in short linkflags are most fully represented there.
And the fact that we are not in the subject suffered, still attracted for the propaganda of Nazism.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Alexander Romanov

This is like the flag of the German Navy of that time.

Good day, Alexander.

I am not a strong specialist in the flags of the fascists, but this one was considered one. This is the "War Flag 1935."
Maybe I'm wrong.

In general, it’s great that in 2013go on the territory of Russia we are now confused about the accessory of the banners of Nazi Germany ...
Worse if it were the other way around.


This is a merit of our veterans.

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: Aleks tv

This is a merit of our veterans.

Precisely, today is the Day of Military Glory of our grandfathers, not Nazi trinkets. There would be no victory near Moscow, there would not be this photo from the suburbs of Vienna. And we would not be

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Thunderbolt

and this photograph would not have been from the suburbs of Vienna. And we would not have been

EXACTLY !!!


Greetings, namesake.

It was this photo that I just wanted to post.

[svp67]

Quote: Aleks tv

Battle for Moscow. 1941 One of the first banners of invaders thrown to the Mausoleum in 45:

Everything began, but Berlin ...

[svp67]

And feel the difference ...

The banner of the 133rd joint venture of the 72nd SD was captured by rangers of the 49th German corps near Uman. The banner is removed from the killed Red Army

[pvv113]

ETERNAL MEMORY TO SUCH RED ARMENIANS!

[Aleks tv]

Quote: svp67

The banner is removed from the killed Red Army

Memory of the Fighter ...

[Stiletto]

A huge thank you for the unique selection of photos!

[realist]

so maybe it makes sense to make this day a holiday, instead of unequivocally February 23rd? or incomprehensible independence day?

[Prometey]

Quote: Realist

so maybe it makes sense to make this day a holiday, instead of unequivocally February 23rd? or incomprehensible independence day?

And why, then, not November 19, for example?

[morpogr]

Great Photos! On this day, it is necessary to conduct classes in all schools about this day so that the future generation knows what heroes their great-grandfathers remembered and what.

[yan]

Eternal memory to the heroes! The selection of photos is wonderful, the faces inspired by our grandfathers. They went to death, and their views were clear and all-understanding.

[polly]

This year was Victory Day in the Moscow Region, in the Bullfinches. Here, on the 42nd kilometer of Volokolamsk Highway, fierce battles took place in 1941, during which the Soviet soldiers managed to stop the Nazis' attack on Moscow and drive them back. Today, in honor of the defenders of the capital, the Eternal Flame burns day and night on the territory of the memorial complex “Frontier of Glory”. It is located at the foot of the Siberian monument. Two armies, 26 divisions, 6 rifle brigades and a list of 19 Siberian soldiers awarded the title of Heroes of the Soviet Union during the Battle of Moscow are immortalized on the memorial plates of the Memorial. Eternal glory to our fallen heroes!

[polly]

This is a photo from the Internet, I could not take good photos, there were a lot of people.

[polly]

And here is the "Tigrina" knocked out ... They say there are only 4 of them left in the world, there are many holes in the hull, but the view is still formidable ...

[Stas57]

he is from the Nakhabinsk test site, and therefore beaten.
wondrous post-war history of the car.

[Stas57]

more photos to bullfinches

[polly]

Stas, tell a story about this "tiger", please, if you are a local, you just intrigued me! Was it a target?
Here I could not prove to one resident of Istra that they had a "tiger" next to them, in Bullfinches, he did not believe me!

[polly]

And this is our handsome man, the best tank of the period of World War II.

[polly]

I supplement my photo ...

[Aleks tv]

Quote: polly

I supplement my photo ...

Pauline,


Although in 1941 there was no T-34-85, I will add another photo of the "Tank series":

Lost at the beginning of the war T-26 and tearing forward T-34-85 ...
"We're avenging you, buddy."

[polly]

What a symbolic symbolic shot, it’s good that it has survived to this day!

[smersh70]

Quote: polly

What a symbolic symbolic shot,

here’s the answer to our argument .. see how the T-26 was hit ... draped to the East ... but the T-34 surely flies to the west ... so it was bad at 41 .. well at 43 ... ..

[Aleks tv]

Quote: smersh70

here’s the answer to our argument .. see how T-26 was hit ... draped to the East ..

Good evening, Vurgun.

Request - be careful with expressions, since we were not there. We are here, so to speak, on the "keyboard" now heroic.

According to the photo: the car could retreat, could defend the flank, could beat the enemy surrounded in all directions ...
We will not be so easy to unfoundedly comment on the T-26 in the photo ... LADA ???

[Liss.]

1941 and 1944
Photo masterpiece

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Liss.

1941 and 1944
Photo masterpiece

Earring, are you talking about photos of two tanks?
Yes, very likely ... (about years).

And the photo itself, yes - much ... ahem ... catches.

[Liss.]

Yes Met, most likely in Belarus. There T-34-85 was used, in my opinion, if I'm not mistaken.

[Stas57]

the only thing I would add about those from whom the Typhoon was completely exhausted, those who thinned the Germans etc.

[capskup]

but about 43-45years .. the militiamen, that is, those called up from the citizen, adult males won ... so that children, learn .. do not discard the elderly from the register))))) [/ quote]

Militias say that the cadre army that the recruits withstood 2 years of the hardest fighting retreats, failures, defeats. The Wehrmacht soldier of 41-42 is also very different from the soldier of 43-45. It was an elite, but what can I say the best army in the world-run in battles across Europe, and it ended with our ignoramuses and recruits. What to prejudice the militia fought with the militia because human resources are limited in any country in the world. So honor and glory to those recruits and ignoramus commanders who fought 2 years of battles for exhaustion, who forged their future victories at the cost of their life ......

[Peaceful military]

On this occasion, I recalled from M. Lermontov: "Yes, there were fighting fights, but they say some more ..."
Only our people, led by a truly Russian (not necessarily ethnically) head of state, can turn defeat into victory.
GLORY TO THE RUSSIAN WARRIORS, MANAGED BY THE RUSSIAN HEAD OF GOS-VA!

[123321]

Quote: Prometey

Quote: complete zero

not so few other units met the aggressor with dignity (Border of the NKVD of the USSR)

And I'm not saying that there was no rebuff. Those who met the aggressor in the early days of the war and fought with him until the end of the war - honor and glory. But the fact remains that the Soviet command for the most part, by all accounts, was inferior to the Wehrmacht until 1943 and for the most part was not ready to wage a large-scale war.
By the way, the border troops had nothing to do with the Red Army.

Everything is logical: and then, as now, there was a lot of outright ballast in the command staff, which my father added. And of which a shaggy hand directed up the career ladder. But when the roasted rooster pecked, the whole shell was sent to the rear, and professionals stood at the helm.

[Prometey]

Quote: 123321

Everything is logical: and then, as now, there was a lot of outright ballast in the command staff, which my father added. And of which a shaggy hand directed up the career ladder. But when the roasted rooster pecked, the whole shell was sent to the rear, and professionals stood at the helm.

I wrote the same thing, only in a different format. But on this site such comments are taboo, even if consistent with the facts. At the same time, it’s strange somehow - you cannot criticize Soviet military leaders at all (except Pavlov, of course), even if they lost the experiment to the Wehrmacht generals, and in a recent article about Admiral Rozhdestvensky, on the contrary, if you didn’t pour mud on him, it means that get the anathema. Some kind of double standards.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Prometey

I wrote the same thing, only in a different format.

Quote: Prometey

Some kind of double standards.

Do not exaggerate, Sergey.

You yourself "harnessed" the horse wrong. Slightly confusing everything.
It is so ?
Somehow I did not meet double standards on the forum.
And the theme of the 41 year is a difficult topic, here it is undesirable to wave words.
IMHO. No offense.

[Prometey]

Quote: Aleks tv

You yourself "harnessed" the horse wrong. Slightly confusing everything.
It is so ?

I, Alexei, wrote above that yes - on emotions I did not express the idea correctly from the very beginning. Well, what I said wrong, that since the Germans reached Moscow in 1941, and in 1942 to the Volga, it means that they planned their operations correctly. They didn’t fight better, but they fought more literate at the initial stage of the war. This is my subjective vision based on historical literature.

[Borneo resident]

Quote: Prometey

literate fought at the initial stage of the war

This is because the most competent officers were shot in the 37th, and they left all sorts of useless meat-killers-bugs. Unbearable shovels.

[Liss.]

Tovarisch registered to throw poop or set a picture.
What's up with the nose?
Did the Borneans teach you to use the toilet by the nose?

[Hudo]

Quote: Liss.

What's up with the nose?
Did the Borneans teach you to use the toilet by the nose?

it’s on his face that what is normal on the pubis has grown, the head filler is appropriate.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Prometey

They didn’t fight better, but they fought more literate at the initial stage of the war.

Yes, more literate.
And they were more experienced.
The strongest military machine for that historical period.

Why today's date is important - they stopped THEM and began to BREAK.

[Borneo resident]

Quote: Aleks tv

stopped them

And they did it in vain. Now they would live as white Europeans, not post-soviet unterks.

[Aleks tv]

Quote: Resident of Borneo

And they did it in vain. Now they would live as white Europeans, not post-soviet unterks.

Don’t hiss, a resident of Borneo, it still won’t work.

[svp67]

Quote: Resident of Borneo

And they did it in vain. Now they would live as white Europeans, not post-soviet unterks.

This is for nothing ... It's not a fact that you would live at all, but if you lived, then not as a "white European", but as "Untermensch" on the reservation

[Aleks tv]

Quote: svp67

This is you in vain ...

Greetings, Sergey.


Yes, it’s someone who is clumsily trying to troll, squeaks already, but he’s climbing on rudeness.
Well, not at all skillful.
Well ... a real resident of Borneo.

[svp67]

Quote: Aleks tv

Greetings

Good evening
By the style of writing and by logic and reasoning it is very similar to "Round-sided", there was such a troll here for a long time. Honestly, he's not interesting, it's a pity that such people exist at all ...

[Borneo resident]

Quote: svp67

Round-sided

Blinomordogo. Taki shalom.

[Liss.]

To the photo of the white European:
"Shota, I don't recognize you in this makeup!
Bondarchuk?
Yury Nikulin?
Ah, Innocent Smoktunovsky!
Hello, Kesha! "(With" I.V. is changing his profession ")

[kaktus]

The fire beats in a cramped stove
resin on the logs like a tear
and sings a harmony in the dugout
about your smile and eyes.

Bushes whispered to me about you
in snow-white fields near Moscow.
I want you to hear
how my voice is longing alive.

You're far far away now
between us snow and snow
it’s not easy for me to reach you
and to death - four steps.

Sing, harmonica, blizzard to spite
entangled happiness call.
I'm warm in the cold dugout
from my unquenchable love.

A.A. Surkov, 1941

[tolyasik0577]

were able to fight. maybe not as good as the Fritz, but they knew how. and the failures were because, as it seems to me, the orders from above were not a step back, only forward. and what did the officers have to do? for any disobedience-execution. they were not even allowed to dig in. behold the perls like rams and mowed the fritz of our grandfathers like a scythe. regrouping forces did not have time to do. Eternal memory to all the fallen. My son needs to be told today about those days.

[Aydar]

In the photo are worthy faces, neat, combed, shaved, confident. This is what soldiers and heroes should look like, otherwise they are already tired of photos of emaciated, worn-out, tattered overcoats of soldiers of the Red Army, especially from German sources with which the Internet abounds. Such photos need to be placed, you see the stupid youth will cease to admire Wittmann, Rudel and other German soldiers and will remember their own. The Germans were worthy opponents and the war with them was not easy, the more loud and powerful should be the recognition of Victory and respect for those people who are shown in the photo.

[Amfitsion]

Would you, dear, not anger veterans with such own stupidity?
You don’t see shaved .. They’re not minting .. War is hell, blood, shit and mud, eternal cold or unbearable heat, hunger gnawing from the inside. These are erased bandages taken from those killed or recovered, this fragile girl crying from fear, despair and powerlessness, trying to drag away a wounded, shredded man, who sometimes stretches his own insides ... A war is much more than that - and one worse than the other .. ..
And so, the reasoning of a typical rear lackey in chrome boots .... Believe me, real front-line soldiers, from the front line, about whom they say "there are only one and a half people left, and even that are crazy, spoiled" - would spit in your face. Heartily.

[Federal]

you’ll spit in another place mister,
well, now dress each veteran in rags and make him a homeless person with his entrails wide open, so that he’s marasmus, any army is not loose entrails, but first of all duty, style, in the end everything in a gentleman should be beautiful, including clothes, nobody will be delighted with the homeless uniform, buckets of helmets, footcloths especially now, and for some reason practically everybody likes the uniform and technique of the Wehrmacht, and it stands at times on the black market at times soviet consumer goods, because there they took care of every soldier and did not make him a homeless like a scoop

[Hudo]

Quote: Federal

because there they took care of every soldier and did not make him a bum like in a scoop

Shake the corn fluid in the head! They took care of course - the caps froze to the bosses, the "true Aryans" had to wrap them over the caps with women's leggings with fleece. And at the same time, remember the typhus epidemics in the combat units of the Wehrmacht, this was not noted in the units of the Red Army.

Quote: Federal

and the form, technique of the Wehrmacht, for some reason, is liked by almost everyone and everywhere,

That’s your grandfather’s policeman’s genes say. Do you like good coffee?

Do you recognize relatives and relatives?

[Dimkapvo]

Your grandfather probably wore the most stylish and expensive, with an insanely charming white bandage on his sleeve?

[pvv113]

THANKS TO THE AUTHOR FOR COLLECTING EXCELLENT PICTURES, BUT MORE THANKS TO THOSE WHO POSTED IN THE YEARS OF WAR AND WON! ETERNAL GLORY !!!

[George]

Yes, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers mastered such a war.
Eternal memory to those who died for their homeland.
March of the defenders of Moscow
Attack with steel rows
We are going firmly.
Hometown is ours
Behind us is our dear home.

Chorus:

We will not flinch in the battle for our capital,
We are native Moscow road.
Indestructible wall, steel defense
Smash, destroy the enemy!

On the march platoons are equal
The ground is buzzing underfoot
Behind us - native plants
And the red stars of the Kremlin.

Chorus.

For happiness do it yourself
We built the city native.
For every chopped stone
We will pay back at a terrible price.

Chorus.

Do not crush heroic power,
Our mighty fire barrier.
Fascists drive to the grave
In the misty fields near Moscow.

Chorus:

We will not flinch in the battle for our capital,
We are native Moscow road.
Indestructible wall, steel defense
Smash, destroy the enemy!
By the way, I read the stories of veterans, who say that they saw a panic, who says no, who compares the city of that time looked like a compressed spring, but most importantly, people knew that Stalin was in Moscow, and they even held a Parade, which means we won’t give Moscow away!

[Amfitsion]

All the same, 19 million mobilized (5 million - the pre-war army, plus 14 million for 6 months of the 41st) are no jokes ... The Germans, of course, were overwhelmed, intending to demolish the USSR in one campaign; superficially carelessly prepared and allocated according to the plans of one campaign of forces and means ...
It was obvious that the commies in the Kremlin would not give up power, even if it was necessary to put half the population of the USSR; for the victory of the Nazis meant for them certain destruction ...

[George]

Quote: Amphitious

It was obvious that the commies in the Kremlin would not give up power, even if it was necessary to put half the population of the USSR; for the victory of the Nazis meant for them certain destruction

For some, of course, the coming of the Nazis meant milk rivers and jelly banks, seasoned with Bavarian sausages ?! So your way?
Minus you.

[Liss.]

Quote: Amphitious

It was obvious that the commies in the Kremlin would not give up power, even if it was necessary to put half the population of the USSR; for the victory of the Nazis meant for them certain destruction.

You see, Amficion, a large number of people at that time had no choice.
For fighters, to fall behind or at night quietly crawl to the Germans.
The occupied (more than 50 million. Population) to establish cooperation with the occupiers.
For some reason, most did not.
I think not because behind each of them there was a Kremlin "commie" in Budennovka and with a revolver.
Iz-it?

[Amfitsion]

No not like this. I do not care about your minus. Communism and Nazism are organic enemies. Both totalitarian and very self-bloodthirsty regimes. The commies did not stop even before the destruction in winter of their own settlements occupied by the Germans, in which their population lived, if that; near Moscow and Leningrad. Not enough for you as an example? They could not coexist together in any way, for fundamentally different ideologies. One had to sink into oblivion ...

[Liss.]

Who invented the term "total war"?
Do you play soccer on one leg?



If your home is dear to you,
Where have you been nourished by the Russians,
Under a log ceiling,
Where are you in the cradle, swaying, swam ...

If the roads in the house are volumes
You have walls, stoves and corners,
Grandfather, great-grandfather and father
It has well-groomed floors ...

If the poor garden is sweet to you,
May color
With the buzzing of bees
And under the lime tree a hundred years ago
Grandfather dug into the ground table ...

If mother is dear to you,
You are breastfeeding,
Where for a long time already there is no milk,
You can only snuggle your cheek.

If you do not want to give
The one with whom he walked together,
You didn’t dare to kiss
He loved her so much
To the Germans three of her
They took it by force, holding it in a corner,
And crucified her alive
Naked on the floor
To get three of these dogs
In torment, in hatred, in blood
All that holy shroud you yourself
With all the power of male love ...

So kill the German, so that he,
And you did not lie on the ground,
Not in your house to moan,
And in it stood dead.
So he wanted - his fault.
Let her cry out not yours,
And his born mother,
Not yours, but his wife
Ponaprasnu let him wait.

If a German was killed by your brother,
If a neighbor killed a German,
It's your brother and neighbor who take revenge,
And you do not have excuses.
Behind someone else's back they do not sit,
They do not take revenge on someone else's rifle.
So kill the German you yourself,
So kill him soon.
How many times will you see him,
So many times and kill him!
1942

[George]

I support only in spitting in minus, really what is this
He dreamed of making us slaves, and he dreams, there are many regimes and ideologies that are very loving and exceptional, but you are probably studying history and know about it.
And indeed, our people shed plenty of blood, so there is no need for bloodthirstiness.

[I think so]

And why write such articles? They remembered about some patriarch, who in general did not matter, but the generals who carried out this event were silent. They somehow remembered it well about privates and officers. But the decisive role in any victory belongs to the commander without him, even a huge pile of soldiers and weapons is useless (example summer 41). And in the article about the main characters on whom EVERYTHING depended, the author modestly kept silent. I would put a minus to such "journalism".

[iConst]

Cries that the commanders of the Red Army at the beginning of the war did not know how to fight do not hold water.

The defeats and defeats of the outbreak of war have objective and subjective reasons.
To list them, I do not know if it makes sense.

But in one, the Germans miscalculated thoroughly - in assessing the stubbornness of the resistance of the Red Army. This cannot be taken away. And the whole schedule of the Wehrmacht flew to hell.

Their plan was good, with the exception of one - did not provide for defeat.
But if, then, in the forty-first, realizing that they would have exhausted, they would have proposed a truce, the Union could have done it.
But such thoughts did not fit in the head of superhumans.

The scales fluctuated until the "Citadel" - the Battle of Kursk. Allies, stsuki, were waiting. And, it's funny that they opened the Second Front not so much against Germany as against Russia, as they understood - the Red Army will pass all of it to Normandy and Spain and without their help.

And a piece of the pie (not baked by them and taken from the fire with the wrong hands, but fatter) must be snatched!

[drop]

Almost with the offensive near Moscow, the offensive of two armies began on the Leningrad Front. The fascist capture of Tikhvin in early November 1941 and the danger of the complete encirclement of Leningrad necessitated the strengthening of these armies. This I cite the data that G.K. Zhukov was able to beat the Nazis at that time. So, on November 20 of November 1941, little Vishera is being freed, Tikhvin is being freed on December 8 of December 1941 of the year. He was in the hands of the Nazis for one month. Simultaneously with the offensive near Moscow, near Tikhvin, in the battles of local importance, the Nazis also suffered significant damage. Our grandfathers and fathers learned to fight. After 20 days (27 December 1941 years), my father dies on the Leningrad Front. Eternal memory to all the dead and glory to our soldiers.

[EwgenyZ]

Happy holiday everyone. And eternal memory to the fallen! Here is a video "related".

[Small Saturn]

Quote: Uhe

There is a point of view that the highest general of the USSR army was in collusion, in which Zhukov also participated. It was after the first weeks of the war that Stalin created an investigative committee to investigate the betrayal of generals and other persons, including Khrushchev, reporting exclusively to him and reporting directly on the outcome of the investigation.

By the way, hence the alleged lack of preparedness for the attack, when the crews were dismissed, the planes and tanks were not refueled, although Stalin issued two orders: in May (if I am not mistaken) to bring the troops to combat readiness, and in mid-June - on bringing troops to full combat readiness. And then layoffs, lack of fuel and ammunition - a clear sabotage of the high command. It was not for nothing that the documents were later revealed according to which the "faithful Leninists" in the person of Bukharin, Zinoviev and others were going to agree with the Germans in the event of a war that Trotsky would rule the country, Germany leaves the USSR alone, and in return receives huge territories from the USSR. There was a betrayal, so Hitler planned a blitzkrieg, taking into account the fact that Soviet generals would retreat almost without a fight, but it did not work out. The same Pavlov was quickly banged, showing the others that there would be no jokes, and then Stalin took command of the army and defense personally into his own hands.

I agree with you about the sabotage of the high command of the Red Army only partially, because It is unlikely that the same Pavlov directly sabotaged Stalin's order to bring the entrusted district to full combat readiness. The factor of surprise was along the entire front, and not only in the Pavlov district. It turns out that all the districts were sabotaged, it cannot be that such a large conspiracy eluded the NKVD. By 1941 the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs knew its work clearly. Even if we assume that the leadership of the NKVD was also smeared with the conspirators, why did not Stalin subsequently purge the organs and command staff of the Red Army, it is clear - there was a war and it was not before that, but after the war ??? He would not forgive that. But there was nothing of the kind (in the sense of mass purges on this basis). There were post-war repressions, but their reason was different. Somehow this theory does not seem entirely logical to me. Probably there was another secret order of Stalin on the districts, on the eve of the invasion of the troops of the GG and her allies, its content and purpose, of course, are unknown (perhaps it was a fake / disinformation for the command of the Red Army, and Stalin himself did not publish it or someone over this document "worked" beyond recognition). Someone's counterintelligence has worked here. Therefore, it turned out at the most crucial moment "the horses are drunk, and the lads are harnessed." This can explain: both the failures of the Red Army at the first stage of the Second World War, and the fact that no one from the commanders was punished for "sabotage" - it was not their direct fault (with Pavlov, a separate case). The tragedy of the first months of the war came back to haunt later: the regular army was seriously drained of blood, it was practically impossible to keep it in the western military districts (hence the elite divisions from Siberia near Moscow, the vaults and militias of the Germans would not have kept), the further formation of the Red Army came from mobilized fighters level of training which left much to be desired (there was no time to teach them gradually), the personnel divisions remaining to the east, the command took care of "for a rainy day" for obvious reasons, the same situation, if not worse, and with the command staff (everything rolled like a snowball). So it turned out - the army seemed to be large, it seemed that everything was there, but its combat effectiveness was low (the Germans experienced the same problems in 1944-45). And those who remained alive and well learned to fight, but there were few of those (of those who really fought). But in spite of everything near Moscow, the Germans were still stopped. This was the first "call" to Hitler & Co. that "not according to Adolf Kepi"))). But he did not take this lesson into account, and it was already too late ...

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Quote: Little Saturn

Surprise factor was all over the front

As for surprise, you are not quite right -

"DIRECTIVE OF THE COMMANDER OF THE TROOPS CALL TO THE COMMANDER OF THE TROOPS OF THE 3rd, 4th and 10th ARMY
22th of June 1941
I transmit the order of the People’s Commissariat of Defense for immediate execution:
1. During the period of June 22-23, 1941, a sudden German attack is possible on the fronts of the LVO, PribOVO, ZAPOVO, KOVO, OdVO. An attack can begin with provocative actions.
2. The task of our troops is not to succumb to any provocative actions that could cause major complications.
At the same time, the troops of the Leningrad, Baltic, Western, Kiev and Odessa military districts should be in full combat readiness, to meet a possible sudden attack by the Germans or their allies.
I ORDER:
a) during the night on 22 June 1941, secretly occupy firing points of fortified areas on the state border;
b) before dawn on 22 June 1941, disperse all aircraft, including military, across field airfields, carefully disguise it;
c) bring all units into combat readiness. Troops keep dispersed and disguised;
d) to bring the air defense to combat readiness without additional lifting the subscription. Prepare all measures to darken cities and objects;
e) do not carry out any other events without special order.
Timoshenko Zhukov Pavlov Fominykh Klimovskikh ... "" ... Central Asia Ministry of Defense. Form 208. Op. 2513. D.71. L.69. Typescript. There are marks: "Received on June 22, 1941 at 01-45", "Sent on June 22, 1941 at 02-25 - 02-35". Original, autograph ... "(collection of documents" 1941 ", M., 1998, document Љ 605).

there were earlier directives and orders

June 14, 1941 The troops of the internal districts begin in a hurry to transfer to the western border of the USSR.
June 14, 1941 An NGO Order was issued on the additional direction of 500 thousand reservists to the Red Army.

On June 19, a directive was issued by a directive of the General Staff of the Red Army to bring troops into full combat readiness, the control of the Western and Kiev special districts were transformed into front-line.
So why Pavlov did not follow the orders of the General Staff, one won’t know.