Military Review

The border of Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan: the disputed land and the prospects for appeasement

83
The border of Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan: the disputed land and the prospects for appeasementOn the border between Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan - a new series of conflicts. The reason for one of them was the TV tower, broadcasting the transfer of BBC. And quite recently the republic did not share the oil well located in the disputed territory.


Conflicts on the Kyrgyz-Uzbek border are not uncommon. At times, they result in gunfights, deaths and riots. Meanwhile, the status of these conflicts in the near future may change. After Kyrgyzstan joins the Customs (and in the future Eurasian) Union, Tashkent will deal with one of the allied states, which is also a member of the CSTO.

Who owns the TV tower

At this time, the cause of the confrontation was the belonging of a relay tower located in a disputed border area in the Aksy region of Kyrgyzstan. The tower, which amplifies the television signal, is located on the mountain Ungar-Too, which Kyrgyzstan considers its own and Uzbekistan its. The delimitation and demarcation of the state border in this area are not completed, which allows both sides to claim it. 20 September 15 of Uzbek border guards, who unexpectedly arrived by helicopter, checked the personnel of the tower and put up two posts near it. The Kyrgyz border guards who took the object under their protection also arrived.

The actions of border guards, as often happens in this area, caused the mobilization of the local population on a group (ethnic) basis. Near the building of the Akimat (administration) of the Aksy district of Kyrgyzstan, about 150 local residents gathered. Rumors began to circulate among the Kyrgyz population that the Uzbek border guards had captured a television tower and even used Tanks.

Both sides were quick to declare that the territory of the Ungar-Too mountain belongs to them. However, its status has not yet been determined. According to the Kyrgyz Internet resource “Vesti.kg”, 1959 cards of the year are located on the territory of Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan’s 1985 maps. In this case, the station itself is valid from the 1967 year. A version appears in the media that the transmitter of the British radio station Bi-bi-si, which broadcasts not only to Kyrgyzstan, but also most of the Namangan region of Uzbekistan, is causing the conflict, causing discontent in Tashkent. However, all appeals of Uzbekistan on this issue remained unanswered.

October 2 conflict was resolved. Both sides removed their border posts, and the relay tower, along with Ungar-Too, returned to its former status as a disputed territory. However, the border conflicts of Uzbekistan with Kyrgyzstan, as well as with other countries in the region are not over.

Border and enclaves

The total length of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek border is 1 378 kilometers. The described and consistent ones are 1007 km, and 371 km (which is 27%) remain controversial. Differences cause 58 sites, 28 of which are located just on the territory of Ala-Buka and Aksy areas. The borders between the republics during the Soviet period were administrative, the generally accepted line of their passage did not exist, and it is not easy to delimit them in the conditions of mountainous terrain. The current situation creates the ground for border conflicts that regularly arise between Tashkent and Bishkek since the collapse of the USSR.

Conflict situations on the border - a constant phenomenon. On September 23, Kyrgyz border guards wounded a citizen of Uzbekistan who, together with two other women, “penetrated deep into the territory of Kyrgyzstan” in the Zhide-Aryk area of ​​the Kadamzhai district of the Batken region. Application cases weapons with a fatal outcome are not uncommon from the Uzbek side. 4 January this year, Uzbek border guards shot dead a Kyrgyz citizen who, according to their version, illegally crossed the border to commit a smuggling transaction. Recently, Uzbekistan unilaterally closed 8 checkpoints in the south of Kyrgyzstan, without notifying Kyrgyzstan. Enhanced pass mode, which allows you to cross the border, only having an invitation from a citizen of Uzbekistan, a plane ticket to a third country or the news of the death of a close relative, was introduced on August 8.

Particularly acute problem are the enclaves inherited by the republics of the region from the USSR. In total, there are 8 enclaves in the Fergana Valley, which is divided between Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. In Kyrgyzstan, there are Uzbek enclaves of Sokh and Shakhimardan, administratively related to the Fergana region of Uzbekistan. The largest enclave is Soh, where in the territory of 352 square. km are 19 settlements and live almost 60 thousand people, 99% of which are Tajiks. It also houses the Tajik enclave of Vorukh, which belongs to the Sogd region of Tajikistan. In Uzbekistan, the Kyrgyz village of Barak is located with an area of ​​4 square. km with a population of several hundred people. The borders of the enclaves, cut off from the territory of the "metropolis", are a zone of constant conflict.

At the beginning of the year, one of these conflicts escalated into riots. On January 6, residents of the Uzbek village of Khushyar, located on the territory of Sokha, dissatisfied with the installation of power transmission poles on their territory by Kyrgyz border guards, attacked the neighboring Kyrgyz village of Chabrak. Having seized several dozen hostages, they forcibly took them to the enclave territory. In response, the Kyrgyz blocked all roads connecting the enclave with Uzbekistan, and it was blocked. The next day, the hostages were released, and the Uzbek side pledged to compensate for the cars burned during the riots and moral damage. But the roads around Sokh remained blocked for several more days, causing a rise in prices for food and essential goods. Moreover, not only the residents of Sokh experienced difficulties, but also the neighboring Kyrgyz villages, as the roads connecting them to the “mainland” run through the Uzbek enclave.

Periodically, the borders of the enclaves and closes Uzbekistan. Thus, in August, the authorities of the republic in connection with the celebration of Independence Day (1 of September) restricted travel to Sokh and Shakhimardan, and also closed three checkpoints on the southern border of Kyrgyzstan. As a result, residents of the Kyrgyz enclave Barak began to experience problems, deprived of the opportunity to visit Kyrgyzstan. Trying to at least partially solve the problem of enclaves, Kyrgyzstan is laying new transport routes. In September, the construction of a road around Sokh was completed, which will allow the residents of the village of God to get to the district center, bypassing the enclave.

The problem of borders and enclaves remains one of the most pressing issues in Kyrgyzstan’s relations with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. After joining the Customs Union, it will cease to be only an internal affair of the republic and will acquire an all-union character. Border control is one of the key conditions for the efficient operation of a common economic space. The inevitable, in particular, is the creation of customs posts on the external borders of Kyrgyzstan. The Allied states should think about this problem even before the republic becomes a member of the union, importing its own border problems into it.
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  1. makarov
    makarov 2 November 2013 08: 43
    +8
    It should not be allowed that border conflicts between countries from "periodic" to "systemic". It's not good for EVERYONE.
    1. Civil
      Civil 2 November 2013 10: 48
      +4
      Uzbekistan is one after another and will nevertheless enter the Customs Union, Kyrgyzstan is the right ally. And in general, I propose to include Turkmenistan in the Russian Federation. The people there are good, non-starving, and they don’t go anywhere to earn money. Only a series of frank idiots in power spoils the picture. Well, oil and gas by itself.
      1. Zymran
        Zymran 2 November 2013 10: 50
        +5
        Quote: Civil
        Uzbekistan is one after another and will nevertheless enter the Customs Union, Kyrgyzstan is the right ally. And in general, I propose to include Turkmenistan in the Russian Federation. The people there are good, non-starving, and they don’t go anywhere to earn money. Only a series of frank idiots in power spoils the picture. Well, oil and gas by itself.


        Yeah, do they need this for the Turkmens? Do you want to leave them without pants too?
        1. smile
          smile 2 November 2013 15: 41
          +7
          Zymran
          What do you mean "too"? Whom else have the hordes of Russian colonialists robbed? :))) How, for example, did we take off our pants from Kyrgyzstan? Probably because we constantly give them money? :))) And they, by the way, did they even have them? :)))
          1. Zymran
            Zymran 2 November 2013 17: 37
            -5
            I'm actually talking about Kazakhstan. And the Kirghiz have nothing to lose except their chains, but if the TS will just as "positively" affect their standard of living, like ours, then the next revolution is not far off. =)))
            1. smile
              smile 2 November 2013 18: 05
              +7
              Zymran
              Yes, I realized what you mean.
              I must admit that it is not clear to me how it was with Kazakhstan that we were able to take off our pants by accepting it in the TS What have we stolen from you there? Maybe our countries simply have equal relations now, no?
              If you listen to your compatriots, then the opinions are polar, that is, there is no unity even among you ... but the statement that we are taking off our pants is, in my opinion, unreasonable.

              Of course, I do not take into account the assessment of explicit Russophobes, for them everything that is connected with the Russians is like ... :)))
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 2 November 2013 23: 00
                +5
                Quote: smile

                I must admit that it is not clear to me how it was with Kazakhstan that we were able to take off our pants by accepting it in the TS

                I do not understand who are these "we" who accepted Kazakhstan into the Customs Union? laughing Until today, I thought that this was a joint venture of the three presidents, but it turns out there are mysterious "we" who decide to accept or not the country in the CU.
                1. smile
                  smile 2 November 2013 23: 09
                  +1
                  Semurg
                  :))) And in the case, to answer, as I understand it, there is no possibility? Or nothing to answer? :)))
                  I offer my deepest apologies to your impaired pride ... If you are satisfied, please answer the question.
                  1. Semurg
                    Semurg 3 November 2013 10: 53
                    +3
                    Quote: smile
                    Semurg
                    :))) And in the case, to answer, as I understand it, there is no possibility? Or nothing to answer? :)))
                    I offer my deepest apologies to your impaired pride ... If you are satisfied, please answer the question.

                    on the case for Zymran, you discussed with him. Thank you for your apology. I asked about "we" wanted to know maybe a new legend is being born in Russia that Kazakhstan was accepted into the CU and he is not one of the founders of the CU (after all, there is already a legend in Russia that the USSR destroyed the republics of Central Asia and Kazakhstan, although only 20 years have passed and eyewitnesses of the events are alive ). If I hurt your pride, I apologize.
                    1. smile
                      smile 5 November 2013 00: 46
                      -1
                      Semurg
                      I put it wrong and repented ... although maliciously (well, harmful, I can not help myself :)))) but repented. I don’t support this legend, its authors are stupid by definition. Rarely. You didn’t hurt me in any way. Here. :)))
        2. ultra
          ultra 2 November 2013 23: 53
          +2
          Quote: Zymran
          Do you want to leave them without pants too?

          We left you without pants? And when did this sad event happen?
      2. creak
        creak 2 November 2013 14: 32
        +2
        But have the Turkmens already agreed to your proposal? You do not have enough millions of Uzbeks, Kyrgyz and Tajiks that are already in Russia, do you want more? Only good Turkmen were not enough for us to complete our happiness ...
      3. Siberian German
        Siberian German 2 November 2013 19: 35
        +1
        and who will let you include Turkmenistan - the Americans will not give China the good either
        1. Guun
          Guun 3 November 2013 09: 54
          -1
          They themselves will not want to. Please Kyrgyzstan, they will gladly become part of the Russian Federation - but do you need it? =) Personally, we rejected them.
        2. Guun
          Guun 3 November 2013 09: 54
          0
          They themselves will not want to. Please Kyrgyzstan, they will gladly become part of the Russian Federation - but do you need it? =) Personally, we rejected them.
  2. TAIM
    TAIM 2 November 2013 08: 56
    +1
    and we want to transfer weapons to Kyrgyzs for a billion dollars. Of course, the fighting efficiency of the Kyrgyz army is in doubt. request
    1. Migari
      Migari 2 November 2013 10: 25
      -1
      There we have cool allies, like dogs to each other.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 2 November 2013 13: 06
        0
        Quote: Migari
        There we have cool allies, like dogs to each other.

        The question arises: why do we need such "allies" with such problems? And are they "allies" or have they decided to enter paradise on someone else's ridge?
      2. Siberian German
        Siberian German 2 November 2013 19: 38
        -1
        spit on me and minus but - the more they gnaw at each other the less problems we have here
        1. SSR
          SSR 2 November 2013 21: 44
          +1
          I spit on * as, what do you mean problems and how will their squabble help you? The Balts, Caucasians, Asians, our Ukrainian Bulgarians, the Polish Slavs, let them bite, they kill, but are we all good? You post populist nonsense. At the time of Vladimir Monomakh, a decline in morals was noted in Russia and in Europe, then Rus collapsed. PS. The Formation of Russia L. Gumilyov from the 40th to the 64th p. Read.
          part of the words sorry gadget distort.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 2 November 2013 22: 21
            -4
            Quote: SSR
            The Formation of Russia L. Gumilyov from the 40th to the 64th p. Read.

            Gumilev lived in those distant times? How cute that he shared with us. YOUR VERSION OF EVENTSBy the way, the wrong version, false.
  3. vlad.svargin
    vlad.svargin 2 November 2013 09: 15
    +3
    Border disputes in the Fergana Valley cannot be considered a local problem. The situation here affects the interests of three states at once and, in fact, predetermines the situation in all of Central Asia. Alas, interethnic relations in the region are far from ideal. In 1989, Jewish pogroms broke out in Andijan - and in the same year the Meskhetian Turks were expelled from Fergana. In 1990 and 2010, bloody clashes between Uzbeks and Kyrgyz took place in Osh and Jalal-Abad. In such a tense situation, even a small border dispute can lead to a serious conflict. "(" Fergana Valley: A New Round of Border Wars? "ROSBALT Observer Igor Rotar)

    Incidentally, the Agreement on Cooperation of the CIS Border Troops on April 12, 1996 has not yet been signed by Azerbaijan, Moldova, Of Turkmenistan и
    Uzbekistan. This agreement defined the goals of the border policy of the borders between the states: 1) stability, 2) security, 3) inviolability, 4) creating conditions for the economic and customs space, 5) ensuring the effective fight against drug trafficking, 6) peaceful resolution of border conflicts on the basis of a contract -legal basis and so on
    As we can see, the leaders of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan are apparently interested in "these events" if they do not want to join the Agreement and resolve everything peacefully. The only question is what are they looking for from these events?
  4. Ascetic
    Ascetic 2 November 2013 09: 20
    +6
    Yes, there are constantly clashes between border guards. Two outfits meet and begin to verbally find out who is the boss. Then the case ends with shooting, often fatal. Then the whole thing develops into skirmishes and pogroms of the local population, for example, the Uzbek enclave of Sokh, which, after another conflict in January 2013, was in blockade. The dispute between the Kyrgyz and Uzbek sides arose over electric poles, allegedly located on foreign territory.

    President of Uzbekistan Karimov perceives the Kyrgyz government as a kind of upstart, who came to their seats as a result of "external interference." In addition, the recent foreign policy line of Uzbekistan can be described as “pro-American,” while Kyrgyzstan is trying to establish relations with Russia in the first place, which clearly annoys Karimov, who accuses Russia of constructing a hydroelectric station for Kyrgyz people without taking into account Uzbek interests.

    What are the causes of the conflict between Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan?
    1. SSR
      SSR 2 November 2013 11: 17
      +5
      The first reason is the Karims, the second reason is that the Uzbeks are the newly formed very formation of different ethnic groups whose "great people" are trying to unite and manage. In the 60s, 40% of the population in Tashkent spoke Kazakh.
      1. Asan Ata
        Asan Ata 3 November 2013 12: 05
        +6
        The Soviet government in the 20s established the Ferghana dialect of the Uzbek language (half Tajik) as official, after that we stopped understanding them, and before that they spoke Turkic, that is, closely related to Kazakh.
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 2 November 2013 11: 25
      +1
      Quote: Ascetic
      President of Uzbekistan Karimov perceives the Kyrgyz government as a kind of upstart, who came to their seats as a result of "external interference."

      They are.
  5. washi
    washi 2 November 2013 09: 37
    -4
    I do not understand why these "states" that did not exist before are arbitrarily dividing Our land?
    1. Turkestan
      Turkestan 2 November 2013 10: 21
      +5
      Since when is YOUR land?

      The Ferghana Valley, an intermountain depression in the foothills of the Tien Shan, extending up to 300 km from west to east and up to 170 km from north to south, is one of the main agricultural regions of Central Asia. Only four automobile roads (Ferghana - Tashkent, Fergana - Khujand, Osh - Bishkek and Osh - Khorog) roads and one railway line (Ferghana - Khujand) connect the valley with the outside world.
      The plain part of the valley is included in the Republic of Uzbekistan and is divided into Andijan, Namangan and Ferghana regions, which occupy 4,3 percent of the territory, 27,2 percent of the total population of Uzbekistan lives. Rural residents make up 60-80% of the population).
      About 1 million people live on 12% of the land in the Central Asian region, which is more than one fifth of the total population of Central Asia. The average population density as a whole is about 100 people / km2, and in the flat part of the valley - more than 350 people / km2 (in the Andijan region of Uzbekistan, the population density exceeds 500 people / km2). According to expert estimates, the population of the Ferghana Valley in 2013 reaches 15 million. The government of Uzbekistan with great difficulty manages to restrain inter-ethnic conflicts in this region. Just imagine the consequences of the growth of these conflicts.
  6. andruha70
    andruha70 2 November 2013 09: 48
    +7
    The reason for one of them was the TV tower broadcasting the BBC.
    demolish this tower with the bibishi. and in its place, build a recreation area, and border guards on both sides, on a rotational basis, for a week, send rest there drinks and no problem wink
  7. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 2 November 2013 10: 05
    +6
    Well, no matter how Kyrgyz and Uzbeks do not want to be inspired by the idea of ​​the Great Turan, they divide water, then land, and even cut each other. Pan-Turkism, Pan-Turkism, and tobacco apart.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 2 November 2013 10: 14
      +5
      Quote: Anatol Klim
      Kyrgyz and Uzbeks imbued with the idea of ​​the Great Turan,


      Central Asia is divided into two parts: 1) Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, related to the so-called Eurasian community; 2) actually Central Asia, belonging to the Muslim East.
      Kyrgyzstan is a country located at the junction of the borders of the Eurasian and Islamic worlds and China.
      Therefore, such different civilizations and peoples themselves cannot penetrate the idea of ​​the Great Turan in any way, unless someone from outside "penetrates" them.
      1. Zymran
        Zymran 2 November 2013 10: 49
        +1
        Quote: Ascetic
        Central Asia is divided into two parts: 1) Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, related to the so-called Eurasian community; 2) actually Central Asia, belonging to the Muslim East.


        Who invented the so-called Eurasian community?
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 2 November 2013 13: 36
          +8
          Quote: Zymran
          Who invented the so-called Eurasian community?


          N. S. Trubetskoy, R. O. Jacobson, G. V. Vernadsky, P. N. Savitsky, N. N. Alekseev, L. P. Karsavin
          The Eurasian community or civilization was understood by them as the totality of the peoples existing in the local development of Eurasia and united by a common location, history, cultural trends, although they are different in origin, languages, religions. Eurasia (Russia-Eurasia) Eurasians called the territory development approximately the same as the lands of the Russian Empire and the USSR. Eurasians come from the fact that
          the peoples of Eurasia are not divided into Europeans (Slavs) and Asians (Turans), they are all Eurasians. The founders of the theory of Eurasianism did a lot to show the non-European, Eurasian nature of the Russian people themselves. Contrary to the official Russian historiosophy that emerged during the Romanov era under the influence of Westernist concepts and leads the Russians only to the Eastern Slavs, excluding other identities of the Russians, except for the European, Eurasians also pointed to the "Turanian", eastern roots of Russians. Eurasians noted that in addition to Slavic, Turkic, Finno-Ugric, and even Mongolian blood flows in the Russian veins, the Russian language is full of Tatar borrowings, the Russian political tradition is recognized by Europeans themselves not only as much as European, as Eastern, Asian, Russian religion - Eastern Christianity, Orthodoxy is more mystical, irrational than Western Christianity, and this reminds the religions of the East. The Eurasians believed that the Russians should get rid of the captivity of Westernist ideas, realize that they are not Europeans and no one in Europe believes them to, accept their closeness to the eastern peoples and proceed from it in politics.
      2. de_monSher
        de_monSher 2 November 2013 11: 26
        +2
        Central Asia is divided into two parts: 1) Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, related to the so-called Eurasian community; 2) actually Central Asia, belonging to the Muslim East.


        And who came up with the so-called. "Islamic World" or "Muslim East"? Isn't it funny yourself to write such idiocy? *)
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 2 November 2013 12: 36
          +1
          Quote: de_monSher
          And who came up with the so-called. "Islamic World" or "Muslim East"?


          Islamic world In the modern geopolitical sense, this term usually refers to overwhelming Muslim countriesKazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan do not belong to such countries. There is no overwhelming Islamic majority (less than 75% in Kyrgyzstan and even less in Kazakhstan).
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher 2 November 2013 13: 55
            +3
            There is no overwhelming Islamic majority.


            The share of Muslims in Kazakhstan is just over 71 percent. If almost 2/3 of the population is not the vast majority for you, then what is the vast majority - 150 percent? Moreover, according to my observations, Kazakhstan Muslims are more zealous and free in their departures than Muslims of the same Uzbekistan. Do not distort the facts and data. It’s just that in Kazakhstan, as well as in Uzbekistan, by the way, there is a rather rigid setting - not to let religion into power or into structures that can affect people’s masses ...

            You, dear, it seems to me, often trying to give out what you want, for reality ...
          2. de_monSher
            de_monSher 2 November 2013 15: 28
            +4
            There is no overwhelming Islamic majority. (In Kyrgyzstan, less than 75%


            And in general, an amazing bullshit turns out - the proportion of people who consider themselves Orthodox in Russia is 70-75 percent, and this occasion in order to assert, to seek with foam at the mouth the conversion of Orthodoxy into a state religion in Russia. But, do you understand 71 percent of Muslims in Kazakhstan and 75 percent of Muslims in Kyrgyzstan, this is by no means an occasion to at least count that in these countries, the vast majority profess Islam ... *)))))

            Nudes, nudes ... I see, well, it’s very interesting what this rhetoric will bring you. What other pearls can you expect from you ... *) This is already called unequivocally - clericalism with its double standards. And this is the most vile thing in the world - I already spoke about it ...

            Like that...
          3. Setrac
            Setrac 2 November 2013 22: 26
            +2
            Quote: Ascetic
            Islamic world

            There is no Islamic world, there is a group of countries with a predominance of the Islamic religion that are not united by anything, their religion does not unite.
          4. Asan Ata
            Asan Ata 3 November 2013 12: 14
            +1
            As far as I understand, this is a map of the specific gravity of Muslims?
        2. de_monSher
          de_monSher 2 November 2013 12: 49
          0
          Well, I received from you Ascetic, a warning for my post, this one -


          And who came up with the so-called. "Islamic World" or "Muslim East"? Isn't it funny yourself to write such idiocy? *)


          Well, I will write instead the word - "and-d-and-o-t-and-z-m", "stupidity" to hell with you, will anything change? In my opinion, no. This is the same as using the term "Christian Northwest". Do you catch the logic in THIS phrase? Me not. Do you see the points of contact for interfaith unity between the Polish ummm ... the "variant" of the Catholic Church and, for example, the ROC? I, for example, at this stage - no, I do not see. Here we can rather talk about historical prerequisites for rivalry... You very much want the flock of the Russian Orthodox Church "chokhom", with one stroke of the pen of a scribbler, to be transferred to the category of followers of ummm ... Polish priests? In my opinion, no.

          So what the hell, you yourself allow yourself to write incredible nonsense, in the firm belief that froze smart, and at the same time I also make a comment? Think with your head first ...

          Like that...
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher 2 November 2013 13: 07
            +3
            I repeat, my solid persuasion, especially for you, Ascetic. Firstly, and this is my opinion soon Will not change - there is nothing more vile, disgusting and disgusting than a minister of religion in power. It is impossible, so to speak, to serve two "masters" at once. This is where the roots of both "Wahhabism", "Salafism" and Christian versions of clericalism grow. Just like any "Wahhabite" will be pleased with the massacres of "infidels" in the name of their "God", so the radical-priest will applaud and support the killing and destruction of "churkov" in the name of his "god". And when you so boldly divide the world into "Christian" and "Muslim" you are embarking on the path of religious segregation and whether willingly or not you support, first of all, those very "Wahhabis". I certainly have no power to tell you anything. But I assure you, if you have just such a train of thought, then in my face you will find your consistent and fierce opponent ...

            Like that...
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 3 November 2013 17: 48
              0
              Quote: de_monSher
              And when you so boldly divide the world into "Christian" and "Muslim" you are embarking on the path of religious segregation and whether willingly or not you support, first of all, those very "Wahhabis".

              Did I understand you correctly? Does the same religious segregation not suit you specifically in relation to Muslim countries? With reference to the percentage of Orthodox in Russia and Muslims in Kazakhstan ...
              Or do you think that a country, in principle, cannot be either Orthodox or Muslim?
              Probably because the country is not the people living in it, but the bureaucracy, the ruling ball?
              1. de_monSher
                de_monSher 5 November 2013 22: 24
                +1
                Probably because the country is not the people living in it, but the bureaucracy, the ruling ball?


                Sorry, though late, but I will answer. Segregation does not suit me in essence. I said this more than once, and not two - man - a multi-layered being. There is a layer of religious, national, commercial, social, family, etc. etc. Simply, recently, most often, this or that layer is brought to the forefront, while it has a main core, in fact, he himself is a MAN, even this man himself forgets. In fact, I am a little scared of mask people - a businessman, a religious leader, or an adherent of one or another religion, a person with big national identity, politician ... and perhaps all of these are the five main layers of modern man. And inside, then, such a person, long ago, everything rotted. He ceased to be a man ... already.

                I'm quite happy with people ... just people. Primarily - humans... therefore, let them be whoever they want - Christians, Muslims, Jews; Russians, Uzbeks, Finns, Germans, etc. etc. And so ... you know, "merchant-banker-Christian-Russian"
                ; looking at another person, no matter Russian or Chukchi, his head turns on the computer according to the count - "how much dough will I earn on it"? He is a human? Or a Christian? Maybe Russian? Nope ... this is already something subhuman. Just a calculating machine. Or "a militant-murderer-Muslim-Uzbek", only with a big drink can be called at least an animal = an animal - nobler =. This is already a function of political and economic influence, nothing more.

                Like that...
  8. Shep
    Shep 2 November 2013 10: 15
    +8
    Quote: Vasya
    I do not understand why these "states" that did not exist before are arbitrarily dividing Our land?


    Who are you? son of God???
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 2 November 2013 22: 30
      +3
      Quote: Shep
      Who are you? son of God???

      Apparently, the descendant of the Romanovs (not those of the moderators) speaks to you, and maybe even the Rurikovichs, he speaks so confidently about "their" lands
  9. ed65b
    ed65b 2 November 2013 10: 16
    +1
    Oh BBC is to blame laughing It is for Karim as the voice of America in the USSR. Of course, it is very bad there. And nobody wants to give in to anyone, so everything will go on increasing. But when the Kirghiz army is fighting, then real events will unfold like South America.
  10. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 2 November 2013 11: 59
    +4
    The creation of enclaves was often practiced in Soviet times. The Soviet management system strictly ensured their safe life. After the collapse of the Union, the contradictions of the enclaves sharply escalated. The problems of Nagorno-Karabakh have not yet been resolved and threaten the resumption of hostilities. Therefore, disputed territorial issues between Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are pending. The main thing is that peace would be preserved in this region.
  11. knn54
    knn54 2 November 2013 12: 52
    +2
    -The largest UZBEK enclave in Kyrgyzstan - Sokh, where on the territory of 352 square meters. km there are 19 settlements and almost 60 thousand people live, 99% of which are TAJIKI.
    I have no words.
    - Moreover, the station itself has been operating since 1967.
    That is, it was built during the time of the USSR. And who is the successor of the USSR ...
    Having defeated the Kokand Khanate 1,5 centuries ago, the Russian Empire saved the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks (to some extent the Tajiks) from mutual destruction. Is history repeating itself?
    1. IRBIS
      IRBIS 2 November 2013 13: 18
      0
      Quote: knn54
      Having defeated the Kokand Khanate 1,5 centuries ago, the Russian Empire saved the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks (to some extent the Tajiks)

      "Old man! I have heard many times
      That you saved me from death
      WHAT FOR???"
      In this case, Lermontov's words refer to Russia - why do we need them? Let them cut, burn, divide - these are their problems. In our case, it is better to attend to the arrangement of the border with them, and not wait for the thunder to break out. Apart from their assurances of "brotherhood" and eternal "friendship", which are false through and through, money injections into their dead economies and crowds of migrants in Russia will have nothing. Why do we need all this "good"? We need to leave them alone, let them solve their problems themselves, to the logical end and their complete resolution.
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 4 November 2013 06: 34
        0
        Quote: IRBIS
        It is necessary to leave them alone, let them solve their problems to the logical end and their full resolution.

        These peoples and nationalities were part of the Russian Empire, and they were not there by chance ...
        Over the centuries, Russia has pursued a policy of collecting land, often paying for new acquisitions with a lot of blood.
        You will not be ashamed in front of the memory of ancestors who laid down their heads to increase the empire ???
    2. de_monSher
      de_monSher 2 November 2013 13: 25
      +3
      Having defeated the Kokand Khanate 1,5 centuries ago, the Russian Empire saved the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks (to some extent the Tajiks) from mutual destruction.


      Actually, Russia was deciding their geopolitical tasks in Central Asia, at least one can recall the rivalry with Great Britain. And your speculation is already a problem Your his sick imagination. You will save your messianism - for children and grandchildren, for example, your own. The problem of border demarcation exists in all countries, both the former CIS and the world. Russia, supports Kyrgyzstan, well - your leadership and the business community have great interests there. And precisely in this, and no more than that, the whole explanation of the situation.
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 2 November 2013 14: 38
        +5
        - Let me disagree with you ... Tensions between the Uzbek and Kyrgyz population of the Fergana Valley took place long before the emergence of the "business community" and the current leadership of the Russian Federation! Suffice it to recall the discrepancies with the Andijan hydroelectric power station, being on the border of Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, the station uses water from a reservoir located on the territory of Kyrgyzstan, releasing the supplied electric power and water for irrigation to Uzbekistan.
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 2 November 2013 15: 08
          0
          -Let's disagree with you ..


          I will. I exaggerate just like you and people, so to speak, from your side of the "barricades", when there is a statement - "We help the" Central Asian Khanates "...". Clarification - you are helping Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, and with Uzbekistan, you, Russia, there are graters on this basis. Russia has much closer cooperation with Uzbekistan, which is also mutually beneficial - it is oil, gas, and polymetals from dredges. metals and uranium.
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 2 November 2013 17: 56
            +5
            - And what kind of problems can there be between countries that have nothing in common except history? Trade (?!) with Uzbekistan cannot be decisive for the Russian economy ... and if it were not for the impotent migration policy of our leadership, very soon the states of Central Asia would become Russian decorations for the oriental tales of "A Thousand and One Nights" ...
            1. de_monSher
              de_monSher 2 November 2013 21: 02
              0
              - And what graters can be between countries that have nothing in common except history?


              If you thought that I had written previous posts with some resentment, you are deeply mistaken. I just I state the facts no more. Russia helps, moreover, intensively to Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, and with Uzbekistan - constant graters. And there is no question of any help. Unless of course you show here the 120 tons of food that Russia delivered to Uzbekistan after it accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees from neighboring Kyrgyzstan on its territory after the 2010 massacre.

              It is up to you to decide who to help who is not, no one can tell you. And you decide which country is your neighbor, and which is the "Baghdad Caliphate" from the "Thousand and One Nights". Just do not distort - and all the cases ... all that ... *)
              1. saygon66
                saygon66 2 November 2013 21: 20
                +4
                - That is the trouble with all the regimes that ruled Russia - to help, support. And almost always it is not known who, it is not clear why. I would like to take care of myself - but no ... "friends" are in another trouble. IRBIS is right - to leave everyone alone ...
    3. KG_patriot_last
      KG_patriot_last 3 November 2013 09: 56
      0
      having defeated Kokand, Russia deprived us of power over the territory of the Ferghana Valley ... The Kyrgyz fought the battle of Russia and lost: they lost half of the population, half of the land. Southern Kyrgyzstan in the person of Alai lost power over Kyrgyzgeri and Ferghana. Hence the current dominance of northern Kirghizher over South.
  12. APASUS
    APASUS 2 November 2013 13: 56
    +2
    Everything is so mixed up in the Ferghana valley that any conflict in the store can turn into a war, and not only for Uzbeks and Kyrgyz people. There, population density is one of the largest and was considered problematic in Soviet times.
  13. knn54
    knn54 2 November 2013 14: 25
    +3
    -de_monSher: And your speculations are already the problems of your sick imagination.
    I advise you to think ("adequate", you are ours), why the "White Tsar" left the Khiva and Bukhara khanates, and liquidated the Kokand khanates! I served in Osh for 2 years, was in Kokand, where Basmachism was born ("Kokand autonomy"). read.
    http://www.spsl.nsc.ru/history/descr/kokand.htm КОКАНДСКОЕ ХАНСТВО.
    - Well, your leadership and the business community have big interests there.
    I live in Ukraine, not in the Russian Federation. Interesting. Where are you from?
    -IRBIS: why do we need all this "good"?
    If Russia can regain influence in Central Asia, then it will open up the opportunity to move further south in order to form new alliances / blocs, to build a multipolar world.
    Only the project of the Eurasian Union (and not the CU) will become a REAL alternative to the EU (and not only).
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. andruha70
      andruha70 2 November 2013 20: 08
      +3
      If Russia can regain influence in Central Asia, then it will open up the opportunity to move further south in order to form new alliances / blocs, to build a multipolar world.
      knn54-hats off! hi You see the root! good the first, and unfortunately, the only effective comment on such a respected resource!
  14. knn54
    knn54 2 November 2013 17: 08
    +4
    -e_monSher: but most often it’s unpleasant to read too stupid, nationalistic attacks.
    The Emirate of Bukhara agrees. But the real khanate is also [khan. Unlike the emir, perhaps a pagan) especially after the deposition of Kokand.
    A stupid nationalistic attack is when Uzbeks, in particular on the Barabashova river, say: I am Bukharan, I am Samarkand. At the same time, they look down on Uzbek refugees from Oshch, Jalal-Abad and Andijan regions.
    - Still consider the options?
    Kokand khans were lawless even by Asian standards. And Emperor Alexander II instituted a state award - the medal "For the conquest of the Kokand Khanate."
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 2 November 2013 17: 23
      -1
      A stupid nationalistic attack is when Uzbeks, in particular on the Barabashova river, say:


      Nay what they say in the markets - I don't like the markets, but I can say that the emirate and the khanate differ a little in another way. As for the Kokand Khanate, etc. etc., then in general, a khanate, principality, sultanate, empire (British, Russian), etc. themselves imply the medieval "infinity" ...

      Like that...
    2. Corsair
      Corsair 4 November 2013 06: 22
      -1
      Quote: knn54
      Kokand khans were lawless even by Asian standards. And Emperor Alexander II instituted a state award - the medal "For the conquest of the Kokand Khanate."

      What else can you talk about? In Central Asia, as in the rest of the post-Soviet space, only Russia is able to restore order ...
      The centuries of coexistence of ethos are confirmed.
  15. Semurg
    Semurg 2 November 2013 17: 29
    +6
    Ferghana is a place of contact of three peoples and can become a territory of hostility and a territory of good neighborliness. After the collapse of the USSR, there is work on delimitation and demarcation there, as it ends, I think the conflict will decrease (because the population density there is high, this work is hard there). There were many conflicts between Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, but after delimitation and demarcation and the arrangement of the border, the conflicts gradually came to naught.
  16. alone
    alone 2 November 2013 19: 32
    +8
    two fraternal peoples need to sit down and deal with problems that prevent the peoples from living in peace and harmony. I do not see another option in this matter.
    1. Ivanovich47
      Ivanovich47 2 November 2013 20: 37
      +3
      Quote: alonetwo fraternal peoples need to sit down and figure it out
      In my opinion a normal and adequate thought. Peoples with a long history will have leaders (elders) who will solve all problems. Only modern politicians would not interfere ... But they can.
    2. de_monSher
      de_monSher 2 November 2013 20: 51
      +1
      in peace and harmony. I do not see another option in this matter.


      And there will be no other solution to the problem. This is unambiguous. There will be no war in Central Asia. Not for water, not for other values. And there will be no "caliphate-maliphates" either. Do not invent fairy tales and scarecrows for the inhabitants of Russia ...

      PS: The last sentence, not for you ... You just do not invent anything ... *)) This is the phrase for all visionaries ... *)
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 2 November 2013 21: 30
        +1
        - "What-such a moina war?" S. Hussein, H. Assad, M. Gaddafi. (end of quote)
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 2 November 2013 21: 47
          0
          - "What-such a moina war?" S. Hussein, H. Assad, M. Gaddafi. (end of quote)


          Do you want us to have a war ?? Or do you have any evidence that there will be a war? Religious wars? Wahhabism, in the Uzbeks, in any case, has not taken root, does not take root, and will not take root. Wahhabism is a disease of Muslim converts, mostly Russians, or those idiots from Central Asia who don’t feel any connection with their native land. So, I repeat - there will be no war because of the water. From abroad - will not be either. If you have OTHER war scenarios in your head, tell me ... share ... *)
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 2 November 2013 22: 03
            +2
            - I don’t want to ... And someone asks me? The problems of the Middle East are slowly moving towards the borders of Russia ... on their way the Republic of Central Asia ... will they be able to maintain their independence under the pressure of religious extremism in a peaceful way? And you say "caliphate-maliphat" ... It's just to show figs towards Russia ...
      2. alone
        alone 2 November 2013 23: 58
        +1
        Quote: de_monSher
        PS: The last sentence, not for you ... You just do not invent anything ... *)) This is the phrase for all visionaries ... *)


        but I already thought that it was all of a sudden that I invented))) laughing and you are turning
        to our visionaries)) drinks
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 3 November 2013 00: 15
          +1
          but I already thought that it was all of a sudden that I invented)))


          Sorry again ... *) I just stuffed two thoughts in one post ... *) And the thoughts are addressed to different people ... *)) drinks
  17. de_monSher
    de_monSher 2 November 2013 22: 17
    0
    You, no further than a few posts ago, expressed the idea that Uzbekistan, for you, is a country from the "Thousand and One Nights". I agreed with you - yes, probably so. If that's what you want, so be it. Next, about religious extremism. Look in the article - "Russian Caliphate", it is located next to this site with this article, like. Your compatriot has already agreed there, traditional Islam is a "Diabolic" notion, and Catholics are "filthy heretics."

    And so, I proceed from these two messages, I ask you a question - who should be more worried about the mental health of their fellow citizens? Uzbekistan, in the 90s, at the beginning of the 0s, has already COUNTED with attempts to infiltrate religious fanatics, and, believe me, dealt with them very harshly and abruptly. Is Uzbekistan a country of "one thousand and one nights" for you? And I am shocked by such promises - you in Russia calmly kill mullahs, moderates, and in discussions, even Catholics ... Christians are insulted. So who will soon have a caliphate? Or there, "the kingdom of God"? = Who's going to gnaw someone's throat - muttering on the Bible or on the Koran = What religious extremism should Uzbekistan defend against? What are you talking about?
  18. saygon66
    saygon66 2 November 2013 22: 53
    +3
    - First of all, Uzbekistan for me is the place where I was born ... and I do not wish him the fate of Syria and Libya! Export of revolutions put on stream in the East doesn't bother you? And ... I'd rather tell my grandchildren about Khoja Nasreddin, Farhad and Shirin, about Brichmulla and Khumsan, about how I went to Chimgan and the Alai Valley ... Or tell how the killed in Uzgen sailed across Karadarya, or how they smashed Leninsk and Karasu ... and that their great-grandfather's house is no longer there - in its place the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks set up a control-track strip ... better "1001 nights". As for the "Russian caliphate" - it is not excluded, how sad it is ... But for this they shout, to be heard ..
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 2 November 2013 23: 03
      0
      and that their great-grandfather’s house is no longer there - in its place, the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks set up a control and tracking strip ...


      I am very sorry that your ancestral home is not = As my ancestral home is not, on the border with Kazakhstan =, but this cannot be a reason for me, or you, to become embittered all over the world.

      Ummmmm ... I don’t quite understand what relation Uzbekistan has to Uzgen, Leninsk and Karas = all the same, Kyrgyzstan, am I confusing something? =, But I can still say that I am very sorry that you survived this. And sincerely. Ummm ... The neighbors of Kyrgyzstan = the hand does not rise to write about them Brothers, after the year 2010 =, over the past 20 odd years, they are a bit inspired by the spirit of ummmm ... constant revolutions and unrest. In any case, as a Central Asian, I globally and sincerely regret that this happened. And what else can I say about this, I don’t know ... = spread out his hands = ...
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 2 November 2013 23: 26
        +1
        - The attitude is the most immediate ... These are the same disputed territories. Once administrative, the border passed along the Savay canal, flowing out of Karadarya, below the Andijan reservoir ... The Sharikhansay canal that flowed out from there (I may be mistaken in spelling) separates the Kyrgyz Karasu and the Uzbek Leninsk. Before the collapse, probably the largest market in Andijan region was located on both banks ... Above the reservoir is Uzgen ... If you look at the maps before the 91 year, you will see how the settlements of Uzbeks and Kyrgyz are located. In 20 km - Jalalabad, in 30 km - Osh ...
        1. de_monSher
          de_monSher 2 November 2013 23: 35
          0
          (I may be mistaken in spelling) is shared by the Kyrgyz Karasu and the Uzbek Leninsk


          Damn, I already forgot that Asaka was formerly called Leninsky. Asaka, Asaka - the center of automobile industry of Uzbekistan. And how do you think how this strategic object is protected, and are any claims of a neighboring state possible regarding it? *)
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 5 November 2013 12: 16
            0
            - Sorry, I am late with the answer: Not Leninsk - Ilyichevsk, Kurgantepa district. I forget ...
    2. de_monSher
      de_monSher 2 November 2013 23: 31
      0
      and I do not wish him the fate of Syria and Libya!


      The fate of Syria or Libya does not threaten Uzbekistan, in any scenario, for several reasons. The Taliban, for the most part Pashtuns, absolutely, culturally, according to customs, differ from the Uzbeks or the Kazakhs. Cultural differences are a very powerful thing. Roughly speaking, if you draw analogies with animals, can you imagine the kinship and friendship between a shark and tuna? Me not. Moreover, even collisions of sharks and tuna are unlikely.
      Sharia, Sharia - but the ideas of the Taliban can be shared only by a maximum of several thousand idiots who, for some reason, call themselves Uzbeks. And which, thank God, the intelligence services of Uzbekistan, Russia, Kazakhstan, China and Pakistan shoot neatly and slowly, without any noise and advertising.
      Direct aggression of the West? What are you? The navel will not untie at the same US? After Afghanistan, they would have to save the face-face. Taliban aggression? Read above - if in Afghanistan they are still supported, then in Uzbekistan no one will support them. What a fright?

      Look something like this ...
  19. soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 2 November 2013 23: 22
    +4
    the more Kirghiz will bite with the Uzbeks, the more refugees will be on both sides, so they should not be allowed to do this, let the State Department sort it out peacefully
  20. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 3 November 2013 16: 15
    0
    Quote: de_monSher
    then no one will support them in Uzbekistan.

    Your words, but to God’s ears! But where did you get the idea that the State Department has only the Taliban? There is also al Qaeda, and creating new projects for them is not a problem. Under any specific local conditions, in particular for the tense situation in the Ferghana Valley. Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada. And also a bunch of orange projects, including in Kyrgyzstan, very close to you. You do not know all this? Do you live on Mars?
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 3 November 2013 16: 25
      +1
      You do not know all this? Do you live on Mars?


      To be honest, sometimes it seems to me that you live on Mars. All those who try to make inferences about al-Qaeda, etc. in Uzbekistan, in particular. If al-Qaeda has a strong position, it’s just you, in Russia. In Uzbekistan, excuse me, just right off the bat for a slightly overgrown beard - with the message "for you are not." No one is immune from riot projects, but so far they have been very harshly and successfully suppressed in the bud, in Uzbekistan. In Kyrgyzstan, yes - unfortunately it was not possible to suppress it, but this is yours, Russia’s, area of ​​responsibility. The Kyrgyz neighbors themselves differ in their mass, childlike spontaneity. And if you, Russia, took up this country, so be so kind, be with these children from beginning to end ...

      Like that...
  21. The gentleman
    The gentleman 4 November 2013 10: 57
    0
    The article is certainly interesting, but it was written in the interests of Kyrgyzstan, yet now a friend of the Russian Federation and the Russian Federation has a supplier. only another thing is interesting, why didn’t they take into account the opinion of Uzbekistan? http://news.mail.ru/inworld/uzbekistan/politics/15324587/ we go further, it’s good to say that we became states when states already existed in Uzbekistan and developed well , in many territories of the former USSR there were only tribes ...
    ps I don’t want to talk about the nation, I’ll just note that the new "wretched government of Kyrgyzstan" behaves like in many showdowns, when it squeaks and shouts like a mongrel, knowing that the owner is behind ...
  22. scientist
    scientist 4 November 2013 17: 55
    +1
    I am sure that the problem of the disputed territories of Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan is much deeper than the primitive broadcast of the BBC. It is also necessary to take into account the problems of the Kyrgyz district of the OSH, the Chui Valley, the border problems of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan (water supply and irrigation). In addition, you can see that the NATO countries use the combination of these problems well, which came to an agreement with Karimov and leave most of the weapons in the withdrawal of troops in Uzbekistan. And until the complete rearmament of the Uzbek army has passed, everyone is trying not to “turn up the hive,” they just keep the situation in hot mode. It should be borne in mind that at present the size and technical equipment of the army of Uzbekistan is already surpassing the Armed Forces of Kazakhstan. Moreover, in Kazakhstan, due to global corruption, the desire of the top leadership of the generals to live beautifully due to free excess profits from the Caspian oil has created a lot of vulnerabilities in the state’s defense and security system.
    Thus, it becomes clear why the US and NATO are now making the main bet on Uzbekistan. Most likely, cross-border conflicts here will be resolved in the near future according to the Georgian version of 08.08.08. However, due to the remoteness of Russia and the peculiarities of the local mentality, such a solution to cross-border conflicts can be much more successful. Most likely it will become a revenge for the events in South Ossetia
    1. de_monSher
      de_monSher 4 November 2013 19: 26
      0
      Chuy valley, border problems of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan (water supply and irrigation). In addition, you can see that the NATO countries use the combination of these problems well, which came to an agreement with Karimov and leave most of the weapons in the withdrawal of troops in Uzbekistan.


      Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have mutual claims no, never was and never will be - there may be graters on a personal and everyday level, but will you, if you are a Russian, ever call a Ukrainian your enemy, despite all the “graters”? Dot. Kazakh with Uzbek, not enemies and enemies will not be, in any case. And regarding irrigation and water use, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan have practically the same positions.

      Regarding "the abandonment of some of the weapons by the Amers in Uzbekistan" has been refuted more than once or twice. Nobody leaves anything, you can pick up an interview with the commander of the amerovskoy forces in Afghanistan, from mid-August. Why would the Americans, who are also driving the anti-Uzbek wave now, leave arms in Uzbekistan? It was about possible transferring to the balance of the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Uzbekistan, night vision systems, sights and other small bells and whistles - simply simply because it is time for the Americans to change, adopting new systems, and there is absolutely no point in taking them out of Afghanistan.

      Like that...
  23. nikcris
    nikcris 4 November 2013 18: 32
    0
    Quote: Ivanovich47
    The creation of enclaves was often practiced in Soviet times. The Soviet management system strictly ensured their safe life. After the collapse of the Union, the contradictions of the enclaves sharply escalated. The problems of Nagorno-Karabakh have not yet been resolved and threaten the resumption of hostilities. Therefore, disputed territorial issues between Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan are pending. The main thing is that peace would be preserved in this region.

    What does Karabakh have to do with it? Is he an enclave? You carefully examine the map of the USSR - you will understand that there is an enclave. The enclave in the USSR is a collective farm on this shore, and hayfields on another, in the neighboring republic. This used to not bother anyone. Crimea as an example. It’s more convenient to drive, etc.