Military Review

Turkey and America: found a scythe on a stone

56
In recent years, there is tension between Ankara and Washington at any convenient and inconvenient occasion. For example, R.T. Erdogan considers Assad to be something between a killer and a butcher, but the United States is not at all eager to separate Democrat Syria with Tomahawks. Or take the Kurdish question: Ankara opposes the independence of this nation, which does not have its own statehood, and the White House does not really object to a free democratic Kurdistan. There are other differences: during the short war of Georgia with Russia 2008, the Turkish government did not support the US point of view on the conflict. Further, Ankara doesn’t have such warm relations with Tel Aviv that Israeli ally Washington would like. Finally, recently the Turks decided to arm themselves with twelve Chinese air defense missile systems - and not just Chinese, but those that are under US sanctions. In short, if you look at Turkey from the Oval Office, it will become clear: Turkey is not doing something wrong - it is doing something absolutely wrong.


Turkey and America: found a scythe on a stone


A month ago ARMS-TASSreferring to the weekly Janes Defense Weekly, the following message was transmitted from London. Implementing the national program for creating the T-Loramids air defense system, Turkey will cooperate with the China Precision Machinery Import Export Corporation (CPMIEC). US sanctions are in effect against the latter due to the violation of the ban on distribution weapons in Iran, North Korea and Syria. The decision to cooperate with the Chinese was made in Turkey on September 26 at a meeting of the executive committee of the subcommittee of the defense industry of Turkey, chaired by Erdogan.

It was reported that Turkey preferred the Chinese manufacturer to European and American competitors. LAW HQ-9 was cheaper. 12 HQ-9 launchers will cost Ankara about 3 billion dollars.

The American Patriot and the French SAMP / T from Eurosam competed with the Chinese HQ-9. The defense companies from Russia - with the С-300 air defense missile system were also a competitor of CPMIEC. The tender won the Chinese HQ-9 (international designation FD-2000), which is nothing more than a modified copy of the Russian C-300P. The Chinese took, as usual, the price: CPMIEC reduced the cost of its air defense system to 3 billion dollars, and the rest of the tender participants requested a little more than four billion. In addition, the Chinese have gathered to develop joint production in Turkey.

Thus, CPMIEC has bypassed Rosoboronexport, Raytheon Consortium-Lockheed Martin and the European company Eurosam. By the way, this tender has been going on for a long time - from the very year 2007. So the decision of Ankara rash or hasty can not be called.

Expert IA "REGNUM" David Arutyunov points out that the Chinese system is technologically probably inferior to both the American and Russian counterparts - all the more since it was largely developed on the basis of the Russian C-300 systems that were supplied to the PRC at the time.

The White House reacted negatively to Turkey’s decision. As the expert writes, referring to Today's Zaman, Washington is “very dissatisfied” with the Turkish decision. An unnamed source of the publication noted that Barack Obama raised this issue twice during meetings with the Prime Minister of Turkey, reminding him of the compatibility issues that would arise if a manufacturer was chosen from a non-NATO country.

NATO’s diplomatic sources, the analyst notes, have virtually eliminated the possibility of interaction between the bloc’s air defense systems deployed in Turkey and the Chinese complexes.

Washington's irritation was also caused by the fact that the CPMIEC in February 2013 was included in the US sanctions list for cooperation with Iran, Syria and the DPRK.

As for the benefits of cooperation with the Chinese, Today's Zaman allocates not only a billion dollars in price differences and attractive terms for technology transfer. Another Chinese advantage for Ankara was the possibility of new investments from the Celestial Empire within the framework of the deliveries of the said air defense missile systems. The fact is that the Chinese proposal envisages large investments in the creation of a technopark in Istanbul.

D. Arutyunov believes that Ankara’s decision on an anti-aircraft missile tender is the message of the signal not so much the United States as the EU. With the European Union, the Turks also have a serious cooling - due to protests about Gezi Park. The analyst quotes the words of Advisor to the Prime Minister of Turkey, Yigit Bulut, who called on Ankara to strive for leadership in the Middle East and Central Asia, as well as to “get rid of the scenarios of the European Union,” which will soon fall apart.

As for the Syrian issue mentioned above, Turkey, now distancing itself from the West, may take a more realistic position on Syria. According to the expert, Turkey’s foreign policy seems to be entering a “period of maneuvering between global and regional centers of power,” which is confirmed by the results of the tender for the air defense system.

With regard to technological consequences, it is not excluded the introduction of US restrictions on the transfer of military technology to Turkey. The penetration of Beijing in the military-industrial complex of Turkey worries the United States, the expert said.

Stanislav Borzyakov (newspaper "Sight") cites the words of the Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Arink, who noted that Turkey "has no obligations regarding the implementation of sanctions imposed by other countries", and "should make any decisions based on its own national interests."

As for the Chinese, they are asking not to politicize "normal trade competition." “Cooperation between the Chinese company and Turkey is a normal military cooperation between the two countries,” said the spokeswoman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Hua Chunying.

Copying C-300 and various weapons in general, we add, the Chinese, too, are probably attributed to the normal way of doing business. Cooperation is such a military, yes ... But back to the topic.

In fact, with the tender is not all clear. The Chinese have not yet begun to cooperate with the Turks. S. Borzyakov notes that Abdullah Gul (the president of Turkey) said that signing a contract with CPMIEC is not planned in the near future and that this “company is just the leader of a short list of bidders in the tender”.

The president also noted that Turkey is a member of NATO and is obliged to take into account the interests of the alliance.

All this looks like a retreat before the diplomatic onslaught of Americans. Washington would like to supply Turkey with “Patriots”, load the work of its unemployed, fill the budget and at the same time preserve the compatibility of NATO systems.

But the president in Turkey is a nominal figure. His statement, the analyst writes, can be interpreted in favor of the “conspiracy version”. The Turkish side could have thrown information about winning the Chinese tender in order to follow the reaction and convince other players to lower the price of the air defense system.

One could agree with this, we note, if the Chinese did not offer Ankara the other favorable conditions listed above. In addition, none of the competitors of CPMIEC will not reduce the price of a billion dollars. Only the Chinese are able to operate with such values ​​downward. Erdogan’s disappointment that the White House avoided Assad’s bombing, and Assad skillfully played out the Kurdish map, is so great that Ankara's weather vane could well turn to Celestial. And indeed the last Asian news around Turkey are not limited to a tender for air defense system alone.

The other day at the summit in Minsk, Turkey asked for ... the Customs Union. And more specifically, the president of Kazakhstan proposed to take this country to the CU.

“The President of Turkey appealed to me with a request to join our Customs Union. Let us and we will accept Turkey ", - quotes the words of Nursultan Nazarbayev, said by him at a meeting of the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council, RIA News".

“Maybe Turkey will accept a big country and the conversation will end,” Nazarbayev suggested to the presidents of Russia and Belarus.

Turkey's entry into the vehicle, according to the Kazakh presidentIt would help once and for all stop the rumors that under the guise of the Customs Union is the revival of the USSR.

So, a sensation. It turns out that Turkey declared a new geopolitical vector - both at the summit in Minsk and in the case of the Chinese air defense system. This vector is definitely Asian. It is no coincidence that the very appeal to Nazarbayev.

Stanislav Tarasov ("Voice of Russia") rightly observes that the scoring of Ankara’s desire by President Nazarbayev right now is not accidental. After all, the EU recently announced its intention to resume talks on Turkey’s membership, so that, as stated by the participants of the Council of Permanent Representatives of 28 EU countries at a meeting in Luxembourg, "to push Turkey to build democracy."

And this, we add from ourselves, means that Europe is not so much inviting Ankara to the union, as long as it indicates Turkey how to behave and what to do. Push up

Recently, after the suppression of the protests in Ankara, the process of negotiations on the admission of Turkey to the EU was suspended. In response, Ankara made statements about its disappointment with Europe. It was also said that Turkey could use alternatives for integration, notes S. Tarasov.

And if Turkey is convinced that Europe does not want to see her as a full-fledged member of the union, she can quite seriously think about joining the CU.

Thus, the double Asiatic turn of Turkey (even if it is thrown into the media space “on trial”) should say a lot to both the European Union and the American administration, which is now pursuing a very weak policy in the Middle East.

There is another nuance that analysts and experts have not written about. The economies of China and Russia have long predicted that recession, recession, some sudden crisis, but in reality the situation is different now: the crisis does not eat the Middle Kingdom and not Moscow, but the West (including the NATO countries that have no more money). Russia and Turkey, Turkey and Kazakhstan are ready to increase mutual trade turnover, which was repeatedly stated at the highest level. You don’t need to talk about China: he is becoming one of the leaders of the world economy, and it would be foolish to ignore it. In addition, the pro-American course of Turkey has long been criticized at home Erdogan, and the prime minister, who is going to run for president, can not ignore this.

These are the geopolitical quirks we are seeing today in a changing world. Ankara will forcibly land and search the plane flying from Russia to Syria, otherwise it will be asked to go to the Customs Union ... It remains for her - for a couple with Qatar - to declare herself the bearer of the peacekeeping mission in Syria, and the media will again receive a reason for sensation.

Observed and commented on Oleg Chuvakin
- especially for topwar.ru
56 comments
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  1. Canep
    Canep 29 October 2013 08: 47 New
    11
    If Turkey gathers with the CU, then it will have to settle relations with Armenia. If it works out, then Azerbaijan, I think, will follow the example of Turkey. But I very much doubt that Turkey and Azerbaijan will be able to agree with Armenia. Although two months ago I was sure that the Americans would bomb Syria, and Putin deftly removed this issue, maybe something will work out for him here.
    1. Max otto
      Max otto 29 October 2013 09: 33 New
      10
      Turkey in the CU is just a hint or kick of the EU for prevention, which would become more accommodating. It is unlikely that there will be anything concrete in the direction of the CU, but there can already be progress towards the EU. I would advise you not to flatter yourself at the expense of Turkey. Although everything can be ...
      1. bif
        bif 29 October 2013 10: 22 New
        +1
        Quote: Max Otto
        Turkey in the CU is just a hint or kick of the EU for prevention, which would become more accommodating. It is unlikely that there will be anything concrete in the direction of the CU, but there can already be progress towards the EU. I would advise you not to flatter yourself at the expense of Turkey. Although everything can be ...

        I agree with the indicative reverence for the Russian Federation and the hint of the EU ... Turkey began to integrate more than 50 years ago into the EU, they so hoped that even the car numbers for several years are completely similar to the EU (there instead of the EU, it says TR
        ."And nothing has changed". Turkey will not be included in the CU, but it will gradually become an ally in the region.
        1. smersh70
          smersh70 29 October 2013 16: 47 New
          +1
          Quote: bif
          license plates for several years are completely similar to the EU

          yes the numbers are similar both with you and us laughing the numbers of the regions are meant ..... and here it is))))))))) by the way, and Armenia whistled samples of numbers with us, did it like us after 10 years ..... the only numbers are different from Ukraine, Belarus and Georgia .. ..
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic 29 October 2013 09: 47 New
      +6
      Quote: Canep
      But I very much doubt that Turkey and Azerbaijan will be able to agree with Armenia. Although two months ago I was sure that the Americans would bomb Syria, and Putin deftly removed this issue, maybe something will work out for him here.


      If American influence in the Caucasus is reduced to almost zero, both political and economic, there will be an opportunity to come to terms with the world. Now the situation is stalemate, everyone is pulling the blanket over themselves and no one can defrost a frozen conflict on the Tax Code. Let us assume the economic configuration in the Russia-Turkey-Kazakhstan-Azerbaijan-Armenia region without the participation and influence of the states and the EU. Then you can agree not based on Geneva but on a regional level. It is possible, through the mediation of Russia and Turkey, to create a certain roadmap for the phased solution of the issue. To give Armenia money in return, for the start, recognize NK as the territory under the joint management of which will be the same Turkey and Russia, for example, in general the need to solve the stalemate will mature and I’m sure it will be solved . But everything rests on Turkey’s membership in NATO, and judging by recent events and especially how the Americans treated Mursi, Erdogan clearly began to be weighed by this membership because even in Syria, NATO was powerless. Hence, a glance to the north and east, and the Chinese air defense systems are also a blow to NATO, although the Turks claim that they can be integrated into a single NATO information system.
      1. duke
        duke 29 October 2013 12: 46 New
        +5
        there is still such a moment, Erdogan is determined to revive Osmania, in the 2nd edition, adjusted for the realities of the modern world, realizing that in Europe he is a stranger and will not be allowed to the pie, only for the role of a servant (which Yanukovych and others do not understand. many "politicians" of Eastern Europe), therefore, he decided to increase the degree of Turkish influence in the east - Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, thus entering the Caspian and influencing other Turkic nations, incl. and in Russia, Ukraine (Crimea). In addition, the TS is a colossal market for inexpensive Turkish goods that are superfluous in Europe. As a NATO member and joining the CU, Turkish influence in the region will grow immeasurably. For example, thanks to Sahak, Georgia has long been in the orbit of Turkish influence, which, for example, wants to break Ivanishvili, realizing the danger this poses to Georgia, the Turks have already threatened to chop off Adjara. Turkey is also trying to seize the leadership in the Sunni world from Saudi Arabia. Moreover, at this stage, their entire economic rise is inextricably linked with the Sunni revival, since religion under Ataturk and the secular-military regime was on the sidelines. There is a clear and systematic economic and religious growth of the power of Osmania-2, and I do not think that this will be good for Russia - everything is returning to normal. I wish our poor and homegrown politicians could learn from someone, instead of thoughtlessly opening the doors to migrants and suppressing the national and religious consciousness of their people, while at the same time strangling them economically, although I believe that for our so-called "elite", he is in no way his own, as Khodorkovsky used to say, Russia, is a field of free hunting. As they say, comments are superfluous ...
    3. 416sd
      416sd 29 October 2013 13: 33 New
      +4
      Turkey will never be in the CU. Forget about it. These are games with the EU, which were taken seriously in Moscow. On the day when the Turkish prime minister will not just join the CU, but will fly to Moscow for a serious discussion on this matter, he stupidly will not reach Moscow. Instead, he will fly to "Comrade Menderes" for a cup of tea.
      1. duke
        duke 29 October 2013 15: 28 New
        +2
        Well, thank God, if Erdogan was wiser and not so dangerous playing, he would understand that he needs the TS more than he TS, I think he even understands this, but watered. the situation most likely will not allow this, fortunately for us.
    4. 416sd
      416sd 29 October 2013 13: 36 New
      +2
      As for the material itself, it is outdated. Because this morning in the Turkish media there was information that the Turks "gave back" and slowed down the deal.
    5. Megatron
      Megatron 29 October 2013 14: 45 New
      +2
      Turkey alone wants to sit on all the chairs at once. It will not bring to good.
    6. smersh70
      smersh70 29 October 2013 16: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Canep
      Turkey and Azerbaijan will be able to agree with Armenia.

      wow, negotiate with Armenia .. why do we need it .. poor and poor ... better let it negotiate with us. laughing how many years does Armenia ask to open borders with Turkey, and we will live without it .....
    7. StolzSS
      StolzSS 29 October 2013 20: 05 New
      0
      Comrade Putin, I think I already wondered a couple of options for how to resolve issues in the Armenia-Turkey-Azerbaijan Triangle, so who knows, can and will play on the verge of a foul and resolve these issues ... How to know the east is a delicate matter drinks
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 29 October 2013 20: 38 New
        +3
        Quote: StolzSS
        who knows, can and will play on the verge of a foul and resolve these issues.

        Sources in the Armenian leadership told how they were “invited” to the Customs Union wassat According to them, one of the reasons was offensive weapons sold by Russia to Azerbaijan. According to the source, earlier Russia sold tanks free of charge and for defense purposes with a range of 3,5 km. But a few months ago, the Armenian side learned about the sale by Russia to Azerbaijan of T-90 tanks, whose range is 5 km.
  2. a52333
    a52333 29 October 2013 08: 51 New
    22
    Turning Erdogan towards the EU is not a recognition of our strength, but Erdogan’s desire to hide under a nuclear umbrella for the duration of the upheaval. Turks are not our friends. The landed plane. Syria, training and transit of militants to the Caucasus. a couple of such friends, and no enemies.
    1. Canep
      Canep 29 October 2013 08: 56 New
      +4
      Now the Americans are not friends to us, but 150 years ago the Russians fought in the war of the north and south on the side of the USA. Russia has always had excellent relations with Germany (until the 20th century), and in the 20th century they fought with each other in two world wars, and now relations are much better than with the Baltic states and Ukraine. Everything can change if there is a desire.
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 29 October 2013 09: 57 New
      +7
      There are no friends in politics in the classical (human) sense. This is why agreements on "friendship and cooperation" are being concluded. The main thing here is geopolitical expediency. On this basis, Turkey is no different from other countries. With a successful combination of circumstances, it can easily become a member of the TS. That will revolutionize geopolitics in the region. I wonder how the United States and the EU will react to such a trick? wassat
    3. VOLCHOXURAL
      VOLCHOXURAL 29 October 2013 10: 37 New
      +4
      Quote: a52333
      Turks are not our friends. The landed plane. Syria, training and transit of militants to the Caucasus. a couple of such friends, and no enemies.

      Absolutely agree! And never been friends to us! From time immemorial how much we fought with them. World War II - they supplied large-scale raw materials for the fascist industry, the Cold War - American missiles on their territory, today - militant camps for the Caucasus, Syria, etc.
      These are the geopolitical quirks we are seeing today in a changing world. Ankara will forcibly land and search the plane flying from Russia to Syria, otherwise it will be asked to go to the Customs Union ... It remains for her - for a couple with Qatar - to declare herself the bearer of the peacekeeping mission in Syria, and the media will again receive a reason for sensation.
      What a prostitution it turns out! Who will guarantee that in our union the Turks will not behave the same? Turkey in our union can become a pest, a kind of spy country!
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 29 October 2013 16: 52 New
        -6
        Quote: VOLCHONOKSURALA
        militant camps for the Caucasus, Syria, etc.

        what are you talking about, comrade ... You are not sitting on comrade Epishev’s political information laughing
        Quote: VOLCHONOKSURALA
        World War II - they supplied large-scale raw materials for the fascist industry,

        ... well, and you fought all my life with almost the whole world .... and what ...... wassat right now it’s not the time of a warrior .... right now it’s time to establish trade and economic relations ... and the enemies ... spies .... armada rockets .... relax, comrade ... drinks
        1. VOLCHOXURAL
          VOLCHOXURAL 29 October 2013 17: 36 New
          +2
          Quote: smersh70
          what are you talking about, comrade ... You are not sitting on comrade Epishev’s political information

          Dear smersh, at hike you are sitting on political information (or something else) wassat just deny the obvious things! request
          and you all seem to have enemies ... spies .... armada rockets .... relax, comrade ...
          Why did you get that I'm straining? winked I do not see any reason for this! request And at the expense of the Second World War - this is a well-known story! And our sailors sank a lot of Turkish ships, which in a stream supplied raw materials to the Nazis! yes You should have learned the story, if you don’t know. laughing
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 29 October 2013 19: 01 New
            +3
            Quote: VOLCHONOKSURALA
            And our sailors sank a lot of Turkish ships

            yes I know this topic .. and you recently read it here .... Turkey was neutral and sold raw materials to the one who bought it .... not all the same had to be in alliance with the USSR .... but remember that no matter what, Turkey never entered the war on the side of Germany ... and the NKVD freely acted in Turkey, as a result of which Papen was even killed .. (you know who he is)) .. and the Turks even released the NKVD officers .. ....
            By the way, Finland, Hungary and Romania fought on the side of Gremania, and then they also turned their troops against their recent allies ... well, so ... why do you let the Finns go to Petersburg right now ... they empty all of your vodka there .. ... you still remember the ancient centuries wassat
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 30 October 2013 09: 04 New
              +2
              Quote: smersh70
              Turkey, the NKVD freely acted, as a result of which Papen was even killed ..

              I have to upset you - Von Papen died his death in 1969, at the age of 89. In 1942, he was only slightly injured, the bomb exploded prematurely in the hands of the performer, some Bulgarian hired by the NKVD. The Turks arrested 2 NKVD agents, but released them in 1944, when it became clear that Hitler kaput.
              http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0
              %B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B0_%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%9F%
              D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0
  3. makarov
    makarov 29 October 2013 09: 00 New
    +3
    It's not about politics, but about big money. At first glance, it seems like NATO brothers, and each one strives to slam off each other.
  4. Ascetic
    Ascetic 29 October 2013 09: 21 New
    +4
    The American Patriot and the French SAMP / T from Eurosam competed with the Chinese HQ-9. The defense companies from Russia - with the С-300 air defense missile system were also a competitor of CPMIEC. The tender won the Chinese HQ-9 (international designation FD-2000), which is nothing more than a modified copy of the Russian C-300P. The Chinese took, as usual, the price: CPMIEC reduced the cost of its air defense system to 3 billion dollars, and the rest of the tender participants requested a little more than four billion. In addition, the Chinese have gathered to develop joint production in Turkey.

    The offer of Rosoboronexport with the S-300VM Antey-2500 air defense system ultimately not considered at all.
    The second place in purchasing preference was taken by the Franco-Italian consortium Eurosam with SAMP / T air defense systems based on the Aster-30 missile launcher, the third - the American consortium Lockheed Martin / Reiteon with the complex created on the basis of the Patriot air defense system versions of PAC-2 GMT and PAC-3.
    Chinese HQ-9 is a modified copy of the Russian S-300PMU-1. In 1993, China purchased a batch of Russian S-300PMU-1 air defense systems. Technical solutions and design features of this complex were largely borrowed by Chinese experts during further work on the HQ-9. Currently, a modernized version of the complex, designated HQ-9A, is in production. The HQ-9A is characterized by enhanced combat performance and efficiency, especially in terms of missile defense capabilities achieved through the improvement of electronic equipment and software. Radar guidance borrowed from the American Patriot. The NT-233 radar has some similarities with the AN / MPQ-53 radar of the American Patriot SAM.
    According to CPMIEC, the firing range of SAM missiles on aircraft is 7-125 km, which is lower than that of the Russian S-300PMU1 air defense system (150 km). This, in due time, became the main reason for the purchase by China of S-300PMU2 air defense systems with a range of 200 km in 2003. (The Chinese bought 16 S-300PMU-2 divisions that were used to equip air defense units and study)
    The range of destruction by a complex of air-to-ground missiles is estimated at 7-50 km, altitude 1-18 km. The range of the complex on cruise missiles is 7-15 km, the minimum defeat height is 25 m. The range of ballistic missiles is 7-25 km, the height is 2-15 km.
    Range target detection multifunctional radar HT-233 (probably based on 30N6E) - 150 km, tracking range - 100 km, the number of simultaneously detected targets - up to 100, the number of escorted - up to 50.
    In general, the Chinese hybrid S-300 and Patriot is a rather formidable weapon.
    And in terms of price / quality, it naturally surpasses European and American counterparts.
    1. 222222
      222222 29 October 2013 10: 33 New
      +1
      Ascetic SU Today, 09:21
      "According to the Turkish media, the Defense Industry Department (Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - SSM) of the Turkish Defense Ministry decided to extend until January 31, 2014 the validity of proposals for a tender from the Ministry of Defense for the purchase of medium and long-range air defense systems under the T-LORAMIDS (Turkish Long Range Thus, the decision made by SSM on September 26 to select in this tender the Chinese HQ-9 air defense system, submitted to the competition by the Chinese foreign trade association China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corporation (CPMIEC), was actually disavowed, and the tender was essentially restarted. "
      http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2013/10/29/
      1. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 15 New
        +3
        Quote: 222222
        "According to the Turkish media, the Defense Industry Department (Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - SSM) of the Turkish Defense Ministry decided to extend until January 31, 2014 the validity of proposals for a tender from the Ministry of Defense for the purchase of medium and long-range air defense systems under the T-LORAMIDS (Turkish Long Range Air And Missile Defense System).


        Americans and Europeans are unlikely to offer co-production with technology transfer!

        So HQ-9 will be winners anyway! And negotiations with the Chinese did not stop!
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 29 October 2013 12: 26 New
          +2
          Quote: ayyildiz
          So HQ-9 will be winners anyway! And negotiations with the Chinese did not stop!


          If you exclude Antei from the brackets and being guided by the interests of the national security of the country, the Chinese complex is the best option in many respects. Turkey has no long-range air defense systems as a class, more or less they have air defense systems worthy of them. Turkey cannot rely only on NATO as small European countries if he wants to achieve the status of an influential regional power and not go on a leash of American interests. I will even express the seditious thought that it is preferable for us to have Turkey as an independent and strong regional power, albeit a rival, but ONE with which it is easier to negotiate and look for common ground. Moreover, Europe will never accept Turkey.
          If Turkey has common interests with Europe, then I don’t understand what the Turks can associate with the Saudi Arabs or Israel.
          1. 222222
            222222 29 October 2013 12: 32 New
            +1
            Quote: ayyildiz
            So HQ-9 will be winners anyway! And negotiations with the Chinese did not stop!
            What is the problem .. The problem is for NAT. since Turkey's air defense system is included in the general air defense system of the block. And this is the communication and ACS subsystem, the "friend or foe" recognition subsystem ... Will the Chinese be allowed to this?
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 57 New
              +2
              Quote: 222222
              Turkey is included in the general air defense system of the unit

              Its + and- eats of course, but the second generation will definitely be allowed!
          2. ayyildiz
            ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 54 New
            +2
            The fact is, Patriots can not be used against Greece, Bulgaria, Israel, Iraq and NATO, but no one knows what will happen tomorrow! Davutoglu raised a good question, with what purpose they do not want to share technologies!
  5. ZU-23
    ZU-23 29 October 2013 09: 22 New
    +2
    Everything is right from cover to cover, and Erdogan has tangled the coast.
  6. Selevc
    Selevc 29 October 2013 09: 53 New
    +2
    Everything is relatively simple in relations between Turkey and the West ... Turkey has been asking the EU for many years as an equal and strong partner - they are not letting it in, the US is trying to command them in defense matters ... In general, the West and Turkey behave as the owner with a vassal - but the vassal himself would not mind turning into a master ... I think Turkey will show them its real face in the near future - if there are any serious problems in the EU, then the Greeks will get the Turks first of all !!!
  7. Lindon
    Lindon 29 October 2013 10: 10 New
    +3
    Turkey has grown out of Setellitian pants and wants to become a regional player - hence its first independent steps are not to the tune of the United States.
    If Turkey succeeds (and this must be helped), then the USA will lose the satellite. It will be easier for other players to negotiate with Ankara when Washington will not have a roof !!!
    Beijing and Moscow can easily solve their problems in the region.
    And if Turkey joins the SCO or the Customs Union, it will be good for Moscow in general.
    1. avt
      avt 29 October 2013 10: 39 New
      +3
      Quote: Lindon
      And if Turkey joins the SCO or the Customs Union, it will be good for Moscow in general.

      C what a hangover we have such a hangover?
      Quote: Lindon
      Turkey has grown out of Setellitian pants and wants to become a regional player

      It seems that you have missed something, they have been regional players for a long time, they really are not satisfied with this situation, but the strength is greater, as Syria has shown, because the conflict there is far from regional, it’s not enough, they aren’t pulling on the participant of the Big Game. Well, does it make sense for us to spin them to such a level?
      Quote: Lindon
      . It will be easier for other players to negotiate with Ankara when Washington will not have a roof !!!

      Yeah, it's just easier laughing , no, well, if we start building the neo-Ottoman Empire right away, yes.
      Quote: Lindon
      hence her first independent steps are not to the tune of the United States.

      What are the steps !? This trick with air defense weapons? Yes, they always chipped off such numbers, remember the helicopter tender, how the Kamovites participated there, all one to one. The same razvodilovo with the TS, only maybe Nazarbayev played in the great Turan and is looking for a counterbalance to Russia in the TS, or China was scared that he was slowly but surely buying Kazakhstan with his “investments”, but such games will not lead to good. , at the moment, relations with Turkey are quite decent and adequate for the time, or better - the enemy of the good.
      1. Zymran
        Zymran 29 October 2013 10: 44 New
        +3
        Quote: avt
        The same thing was bred with the CU, only Nazarbayev may have played in the great Turan and is looking for a counterweight to Russia in the CU


        Nazarbayev simply tricked Putin about his plans to take Syria to the vehicle.
      2. Lindon
        Lindon 29 October 2013 15: 47 New
        0
        avt
        As soon as the United States is weakened, Turkey will show its Ottoman face.
        Joining the SCO is not a problem for them at all. With China, they are all chocolate.
        Under the USA, they laid down because on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire they built everything surrounded by enemies.
        The weaker and more stupid the US policy, the more active is the fermentation in the camp of their allies. From your point of view to argue - and Moscow and Washington have decent and adequate relationships.
        Well, the Chinese fellows are catching fish while the trouble in the US camp - their air defense systems vparivayut. We are waiting for the result - who will win, and there it will be clear what game the Turks play.
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 29 October 2013 15: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: Lindon
          . With China they have all the chocolate

          Not always the Uigur factor eats! And it is very in the way!
        2. hrych
          hrych 29 October 2013 21: 32 New
          +3
          The United States has about a thousand military bases. Can you imagine what it is? When will the US weaken? When will it be 500? The USA has 11 AUGs, not counting all the other devices. Do you know the composition of one AUG? When it is 5, will they weaken? The US military budget is bigger than everyone else in the world. Will they weaken when the defense budget is slightly less than the rest of the world? Besides the USA, there are Britain and France, whose budgets are huge and they also enter the rest of the world.
  8. Neighbor
    Neighbor 29 October 2013 10: 19 New
    +4
    Only Turkey with its problems in the TS was not enough.
    1. Starfish
      Starfish 29 October 2013 10: 54 New
      +1
      "Only Turkey with its problems in the vehicle was missing."

      But what are Turkey's problems in the economy? they have a pretty strong economy.
      the customs union is a purely economic union. although the pros and cons should be considered by specialist economists.
      1. alone
        alone 29 October 2013 20: 59 New
        0
        Quote: Starfish
        But what are Turkey's problems in the economy? they have a pretty strong economy.
        the customs union is a purely economic union. although the pros and cons should be considered by specialist economists.


        so the fact is that many do not understand that the CU is an economic union, not a politically-military one))
  9. Grbear
    Grbear 29 October 2013 10: 22 New
    +1
    Russia, together with China, shook the Middle East firmly on the UN site regarding Syria. The double standards and leadership of the EU (V-Brit) and the States are starting to annoy.

    But the Chinese are closely engaged in the conversion of dollars, which they have accumulated 1,2. trillion (horror!).
    • Turkey: they sell their missiles and give them a loan in dollars.
    • Russia: they purchase electricity and gas and pay in advance for several years.
    • Singapore: transfer US securities to the RMB.
    • Ukraine: land lease and loans again.
    So, not only Turkey began to spin.
  10. Zymran
    Zymran 29 October 2013 10: 42 New
    +5
    Yeah. Does someone seriously hope that Turkey will join the CU? I remember New Zealand and Vietnam also stated this. laughing In fact, the maximum that the Turks can do is conclude a free trade agreement with the countries of the Customs Union.
    1. kosta_cs
      kosta_cs 29 October 2013 11: 13 New
      +1
      Totally agree!
      In general, the statement turned out to be noble! There will be no real progress, but the pluses from the statement turned out for everyone:
      1st + For Kazakhstan and Belarus: Russia's hint that the CU should not be politicized.
      2nd + For Kazakhstan: the announced possibility of Turkey joining the CU will allow NAS to shut up the voice of the opposition in the fact that by participating in the CU, it "falls" under Russia.
      3rd + For Turkey: A very transparent hint of the EU and a means to expand maneuvers in EU accession negotiations.
      4th + For Russia: Signal to Ukraine - nobody in the EU is waiting for you, even if Turkey, which earlier you started asking for it and has more chances than you now want in the CU.
      5th + For all TS participants: Possibility to promote the TS and insert a hairpin to the West - "Like, everything is so great with us that even Turkey wants to join us"
      Maybe there were more advantages from such a statement, we just can’t see them all, because we don’t see the whole picture. But the sensations from observing the grandmaster’s game, so gracefully by a couple of phrases, with a 2nd or even 3rd sense, puzzle many and achieve their goals.
      1. avt
        avt 29 October 2013 11: 33 New
        0
        Quote: kosta_cs
        Maybe there were more advantages from such a statement, we just can’t see them all, because we don’t see the whole picture.

        The whole picture is this: instead of solving the REAL problems that arose after the signing of the CU, well, just make officials of all levels work in accordance with the agreements and statements of leaders, which, by the way, the elbasy complained about at the last rally, so they decided to make a new town for some reason of incomprehensible, but very important principles. Not, it’s understandable, here, as in a joke about gypsies - not my children Fruz, come here we’ll make new ones.
        1. kosta_cs
          kosta_cs 29 October 2013 11: 50 New
          +3
          Quote: avt
          the picture is this - instead of solving REAL problems

          Well, that's about it! There is a meeting of the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council, but instead of the economy (resolving issues of protective duties, eliminating duplicate bodies of the EurAsEC) for some reason, there is politics (admitting Syria to the Customs Union, dragging Ukraine, etc.). Lukashenka gives the answer to this as he told the 24 KZ television channel ":" Some politicians, especially in Russia, are used to throwing on the agenda what is unrealistic today. Suppose everyone shouts about some kind of unification, including in the political sphere. But we are creating an economic union. Someone is talking about some kind of political superstructure. Someone today is talking about the introduction of a single currency. We haven’t come to this yet, we haven’t yet felt the brutal need for it. ” And now Turkey is cited to the peak of the discussion of Syrian membership in the CU. The whole question is removed, everyone descends to the sinful earth and the discussion of current ECONOMIC issues begins.
          1. avt
            avt 29 October 2013 12: 54 New
            0
            Quote: kosta_cs
            And now Turkey is cited to the peak of the discussion of Syrian membership in the CU.

            Yeah that's how
            Quote: kosta_cs
            . Someone is talking about some kind of political superstructure.

            This "someone" actually Nazarbayev, who for some reason decided and said at the meeting that the CU officials are for some reason independent of their governments. Well, I talked about the fact that the single currency will not be accepted for a long time. They will never agree on a single emission center with the current attitudes towards the national state, we have already passed this with the same Old Man even before the "union" misunderstanding, the same fate awaits EVRAZES, well, there cannot be several emission centers for a single currency, this is from the field of schizophrenia, and in Moscow Nobody will give the ruble to anyone, you can rename it to altyn, in the tenge, but no one will give the emission center for a beautiful idea to EVRAZES, the places are occupied and forces, well, except for spells for "equality", none of the two members can take it away The CU, so they will continue to hide behind the sovereignty of their national state. There is no solution to this problem in modern political realities, and without this all this EVRAZES is just a simple CIS, a side view.
            1. Zymran
              Zymran 29 October 2013 13: 45 New
              0
              Quote: avt
              There is no solution to this problem in modern political realities, and without it all this EURASES is just a simple CIS, a side view.


              Not this way. Kazakhstan has not suffered such losses in the CIS. Therefore, the problem must be solved now or after Nazarbayev your entire integration will come to an end. Even now in Kazakhstan, it is supported only by ethnic Russians and part of the Kazakhs of the older generation, who cannot live without an older brother.
              1. avt
                avt 29 October 2013 15: 03 New
                +1
                Quote: Zymran
                your integration will come to an end

                Ours!? laughing Nice person, to whom are you actually writing? Nazarbayev? So he's not here. And “losses” they will certainly be, the crisis has not been canceled, the only question is how big and how easily they can be endured. Nazarbayev believes that it’s hard alone, the Ukrainians have gathered in Europa, the laurels of the Greeks and Bulgarians do not give rest, they believe that they live worse Well, the free will - will, the saved - paradise. Now we do not have the USSR, now everyone for himself, as you decide - it will be so. We are familiar, it is not the first time for us to grow out.
                1. Zymran
                  Zymran 29 October 2013 15: 05 New
                  +2
                  So he is not the only integrator, this time. And yet, even he is against what is happening on the integration field, these are two. wink
                  1. avt
                    avt 29 October 2013 15: 18 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Zymran
                    And yet, even he is against what is happening on the integration field, these are two. wink

                    It is necessary to plow on the field, every day and quite specifically, and not to sit and sing a mournful song about the fact that there is a field and nothing grows on it because of some kind of elder brother. Favorite Nazarbayev joke about the Kazakh district police officer will not work , here in the "precinct" there is a queue of clever people, but for the time being there are no workers, more and more "observers" with tablespoons and a question - "when will we actually feed".
                    1. Zymran
                      Zymran 29 October 2013 15: 53 New
                      0
                      Quote: avt

                      It is necessary to plow on the field, every day and quite specifically, and not to sit and sing a mournful song about the fact that there is a field and nothing grows on it because of some kind of "older brother"


                      Well, what can you do if this older brother does not fulfill the terms of the contracts?
                      1. avt
                        avt 29 October 2013 16: 47 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Zymran
                        Well, what can you do if this older brother does not fulfill the terms of the contracts?

                        Campaign only to sing an old song about the main thing about iMertsev. About what actually I speak.
                        Quote: Zymran
                        your integration will come to an end. Even now in Kazakhstan it is supported only by ethnic Russians and part of the Kazakhs of the older generation, who cannot live without an older brother.

                        No, it's just that old people, as in Vysotsky's song, remember something else, There was a time and there were basements, there was time and prices were reduced, and channels flowed where necessary, and at the end where they needed to flow, "but with perestroika, children of former elders yes majors have risen to poor fats, because of those corridors it seemed to them more convenient down. "
                      2. Zymran
                        Zymran 29 October 2013 18: 42 New
                        0
                        Quote: avt
                        Campaign only to sing an old song about the main thing about iMertsev. About what actually I speak.


                        Well, since the Imperials do not understand the good thing and put it on international agreements and treaties, you should just get out of this union. wink

                        Quote: avt
                        No, just old people, as in Vysotsky’s song they remember otherwise


                        Rather, they are simply used to living and believing in a brighter future.
                      3. avt
                        avt 29 October 2013 19: 02 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Zymran
                        Rather, they are simply used to living and believing in a brighter future.

                        Everything is better than one day and in the form of a goal to have only one thing - eat three throats and not for satiety, but for pleasure, hence the fears of life.
                      4. Zymran
                        Zymran 29 October 2013 19: 04 New
                        0
                        Quote: avt
                        Everything is better than one day and in the form of a goal to have only one thing - eat three throats and not for satiety, but for pleasure, hence the fears of life.


                        This is precisely the motivation that drives our "elite".
      2. Lindon
        Lindon 29 October 2013 15: 39 New
        +1
        Quote: avt
        and in Moscow no one will give the ruble to anyone, you can rename it to altyn, in tenge, but no one will give the emission center for a beautiful idea to EVRAZES, the places are occupied and forces, well, except for spells for "equality", no one else can take it away of the two CU members, so they will continue to hide behind the sovereignty of their national state. There is no solution to this problem in modern political realities, and without this all this EVRAZES is just a simple CIS, a side view.


        Here I agree - the printing press is a powerful weapon. So did the PIGs give up their printing presses in exchange for the euro? And what - they are hostages in the hands of Merkel and Germany. This is also a feeder for the owner - here the United States print candy wrappers for the whole world. In a single currency, there are a lot of minuses than pluses. The economies of the CU are very different and to the level of the mentality of the EU we are very, very far away.
        1. avt
          avt 29 October 2013 16: 40 New
          0
          Quote: Lindon
          TC economies are very different

          request You might think they are all the same.
          Quote: Lindon
          to the level of the mentality of the EU we are very, very far away.

          Are you going to go to this by leaps and bounds? Are you ready that if anything, then some kind of Golden Sachs, contrary to the constitution and your national desire, will appoint a government from among its employees, even if your nationality? And there it is easily done, here in Greece it already happened and in Italy, they simply took, removed the elect and appointed "transitional" ones, without any verbiage about democracy and democratic procedures.
          Quote: Lindon
          . In a single currency, there are a lot of minuses than pluses.

          There are more advantages when solving basic, key issues and understanding that the financial system and the single currency are not the goal, but the means to solve the problems of the economy. But again, there are a lot of issues, in addition to the emission center, the elimination of national monetary units, the question of linking to the dollar will inevitably arise, well and if you also try to introduce a gold standard, then for the organizers of this it’s generally a dangerous event for life. Gaddafi tried to introduce a gold dinar and Mubarak supported them, they quickly twisted them. Then the leader needs to go to the end and lead the people. Not very weak. Yes and The leader of the level should be appropriate.
  • UVB
    UVB 29 October 2013 10: 47 New
    +1
    It is necessary to take advantage of Turkey's disagreements with Washington and Brussels, act on their own principles, in the spirit that "whatever is bad for them is good for us" and develop cooperation with Turkey. And the Turks are successfully mastering the Russian language.
  • Katsin1
    Katsin1 29 October 2013 11: 12 New
    +4
    With "friends" like Perdogan, there is no need for enemies ...
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 22 New
      +3
      Quote: Katsin1
      there is no need for enemies ..

      As with Lieberman
    2. ATATA
      ATATA 29 October 2013 16: 54 New
      0
      Quote: Katsin1
      With "friends" like Perdogan, there is no need for enemies ...

      Well, we can do it from your bell tower, but for us the enemy of my enemy, my friend. laughing
  • Hort
    Hort 29 October 2013 11: 48 New
    0
    It is doubtful that Turkey will join the Customs Union in the next few years. Unless as an observer.
    because the economy is an economy, but the country is a member of NATO and through this is tied to the Western economic system.
    Is it that the Turks will leave the alliance ...
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 23 New
      +3
      Do not confuse the CSTO with the vehicle! hi
      1. Hort
        Hort 29 October 2013 12: 32 New
        0
        I do not confuse, but one is still somehow connected with the other hi
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 59 New
          +4
          Turkey and Russia already trade almost 40 billion among themselves!
          1. 416sd
            416sd 29 October 2013 13: 41 New
            +4
            Ayyldyz. This will never happen. Even if it’s a vehicle. Turkey will never enter there.
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz 29 October 2013 13: 48 New
              0
              I know! A privileged partnership would suit us, and that, only after the liberation of Karabakh!
  • ayyildiz
    ayyildiz 29 October 2013 12: 20 New
    +4
    On Tuesday, traffic in the tunnel under the Bosphorus Strait opens in Turkey. The opening ceremony is timed to the 90 anniversary of the founding of the Republic of Turkey. The idea of ​​creating such a tunnel was first expressed in the second half of the 19th century during the reign of Sultan Abdul-Majid. The length of the "Turkish La Manche" exceeds 13 km, and it lies at a depth of 56 meters underground. Thanks to this route, the travel time from the Asian to the European part of Istanbul and vice versa will be significantly reduced. According to authorities, the tunnel will be used by almost one and a half million residents of the metropolis every day
  • Yeraz
    Yeraz 29 October 2013 13: 26 New
    +3
    Yes, there will be no Turkey in the TS. This means a change in the vector with it abruptly, while Turkey is still smoothly doing.
    And secondly, what kind of vehicle, when Turkey has closed borders with Armenia and will not allow Baku to open them.
    1. 416sd
      416sd 29 October 2013 13: 38 New
      +2
      As did not give three years ago. Many simply do not understand the context, they think the relations between Baku and Ankara are like in the mid-1990s. And all this is not so long ago. We have our own mechanisms for resolving issues if pressure is necessary in Turkey.
    2. ATATA
      ATATA 29 October 2013 17: 03 New
      0
      Quote: Yeraz
      And secondly, what kind of vehicle, when Turkey has closed borders with Armenia and will not allow Baku to open them.

      "Why do we need a blacksmith? No, we don't need a blacksmith!" (C)
      If Armenia or Turkey are on the scales, then Turkey is 100 !!! times better.
      This is a full-fledged ally, if you agree with Turkey, and Armenia is a full-fledged hangover for life.
      And when Armenia becomes better under another wing, it will instantly fall down, like the others, the others, the others ...
      And with the Turks, allied relations are being built in fact right now.
      There is no need here to remember the plane "Moscow-Damascus",
      "Face to face, you can't see your face!" (FROM)
      Our relationship is really mutually beneficial.
      Turkey has a powerful economy, not a hole in its pocket, like Armenia.
      I am not against the Armenians, but it is time for them to regain their connection with reality.
      Turkey is a serious state that has proved its worth by HUNDREDS!
      1. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz 29 October 2013 22: 46 New
        +1
        Quote: ATATA
        Turkey is a serious state that has proved its worth by HUNDREDS!

        Respect and uvazhuha hi
  • Black
    Black 29 October 2013 14: 22 New
    +3
    The Turks also have serious cooling off with the European Union due to protests over Gezi Park.

    "Serious chilling" ?? !! No, Turkey is being wetted along the way !!! The events in Gezi are a provocation of the European special services. Turkey, which had exploded economically, began to irritate the Old World and they immediately began to drain it!
    Erdogan and the policies pursued in the country are respected.
    I really hope to see Turkey in one of the strategic partners of Russia in the near future.
  • vedmeddd
    vedmeddd 29 October 2013 16: 26 New
    0
    I disagree with one thing - US policy in the Middle East is very clear! Anglo-Saxons all their lives, other nations themselves to please their foreheads!
  • Nimble snake
    Nimble snake 29 October 2013 18: 58 New
    0
    I apologize for not being entirely on the topic, so why sell to the Chinese equipment that does not act so beautifully? Yes, they buy a lot at a time, but then they begin to rivet "their". They gain one-time benefit, but nothing good in the long run. Maybe I'm wrong?
    1. negeroi
      negeroi 29 October 2013 21: 27 New
      0
      And that’s why no one is selling them novy. We waved our fingers extremely when they bought the SU-33 from Ukraine. And now we don’t have any peace-friendship-chewing gum, as it may seem. And with India in terms of the T-50 it’s not friends for China.
  • Katsin1
    Katsin1 29 October 2013 20: 58 New
    -3
    Then interesting information appeared yesterday: it turned out that last year Turkish planes over the Mediterranean Sea tried to drag our planes into air battles and even fired rockets. Glory to Gd that this did not end with anything bad. After several such incidents, Obama called Perdogan to justice and the incidents ceased.
    1. ATATA
      ATATA 29 October 2013 21: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Katsin1
      After several such incidents, Obama called Perdogan to justice and the incidents ceased.

      Oh oh oh...
      What will happen to Israel when Uncle Sam leaves him without custody?
    2. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 29 October 2013 22: 48 New
      +1
      [quote = Katsin1] Obama called on Perdogan

      If I write Piderman, will you like it?
      1. Katsin1
        Katsin1 29 October 2013 23: 49 New
        0
        I don’t care, but I don’t like GDP. liberman his personal friend
        1. ATATA
          ATATA 30 October 2013 00: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: Katsin1
          I don’t care, but I don’t like GDP. liberman his personal friend

          Here forever you are somewhere looking for protection.
          No, that would yourself!
          So there is either Obama or Putin.
          Not ashamed?
          1. Katsin1
            Katsin1 30 October 2013 00: 50 New
            0
            In 5 wars, the superior armies of the enemy, several times superior, won, Mr. Sovramshi
            1. ATATA
              ATATA 30 October 2013 09: 17 New
              +1
              Quote: Katsin1
              In 5 wars they won

              It is you who tell your children tales.
  • Katsin1
    Katsin1 29 October 2013 22: 25 New
    -1
    Uncle Sam needs us no less than we need him. And if America had not intervened, then the Turks would be seriously beaten. But it’s good that this did not happen. After all, the most successful war is a war that was avoided ... I hope that the Americans are smart enough not to sell the F-35 to the Turks
    1. ATATA
      ATATA 29 October 2013 22: 46 New
      0
      Quote: Katsin1
      Uncle Sam needs us no less than we need him. And if America had not intervened, then the Turks would be seriously beaten. But it’s good that this did not happen. After all, the most successful war is a war that was avoided ... I hope that the Americans are smart enough not to sell the F-35 to the Turks

      Wang.
      This unjustified self-confidence and claims to superiority will play a tragic role in the fate of the state of Israel.
      1. Katsin1
        Katsin1 29 October 2013 22: 50 New
        0
        This is back in the 48th year we heard, then in 56, 67, 73, 82 and so on. And you come to Israel and visit the most withered peripheral hospital. Then return to yourself and visit the district hospital. After that, continue to give tragic predictions about our future :-)
        And there are no claims to excellence. Do you yourself have a different version of how the air battle between our and Turkish flyers could end?
        1. ATATA
          ATATA 29 October 2013 23: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: Katsin1
          This is back in the 48th year we heard, then in 56, 67, 73, 82 and so on

          A ridiculous period in terms of history for the existence of a wealthy state.
          Of course, I do not take into account the hoax of ancient Israel.
          Quote: Katsin1
          Do you yourself have a different version of how the air battle between our and Turkish flyers could end?

          I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that you are looking for protection from Obama for no good reason. laughing
          1. Katsin1
            Katsin1 29 October 2013 23: 08 New
            0
            Of course, I do not take into account the hoax of ancient Israel. [/ Quote]


            Ay-yai-yay ... So you my friend, not Orthodox, do not believe in the Bible ...
            1. ATATA
              ATATA 29 October 2013 23: 14 New
              0
              Quote: Katsin1
              Ay-yai-yay ... So you my friend, not Orthodox, do not believe in the Bible ...

              But I do not believe in the Bible, but in God. hi
          2. Katsin1
            Katsin1 29 October 2013 23: 47 New
            -2
            Do you think that you need to follow the lead of Islamist Perdogan and get involved in the war at his first request? Avoiding war is preferable to defeating it. And if you can’t avoid it, then another thing ... But it's good that this time it turned out to be avoided ...
            1. ATATA
              ATATA 30 October 2013 00: 09 New
              +1
              Quote: Katsin1
              Do you think that you need to follow the lead of Islamist Perdogan and get involved in the war at his first request?

              Hanging shortcuts, this is the favorite game of the Zionists. laughing
              Quote: Katsin1
              Avoiding war rather than defeating it

              Not ashamed LIE? laughing
              Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on the United States to start bombing Iran. As the politician assures, Israel’s strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities will not have enough effect, and therefore, American military intervention is necessary.

    2. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 29 October 2013 22: 51 New
      +2
      Quote: Katsin1
      I hope that the Americans are smart enough not to sell the F-35 to the Turks


      You better see who is involved in the development!
      1. Katsin1
        Katsin1 29 October 2013 22: 54 New
        0
        And who ? :-)
        1. ATATA
          ATATA 29 October 2013 23: 06 New
          0
          Quote: Katsin1
          And who ? :-)

          Guess what! laughing
  • kelevra
    kelevra 20 December 2013 23: 21 New
    0
    This is a game and it’s even approximately impossible to calculate the result! Everything is too unpredictable.