Military Review

China recognizes: dependence on Russian engines will continue in the coming years

42
China recognizes: dependence on Russian engines will continue in the coming years

Official representatives of the Chinese aviation corporation AVIC and, in particular, its export division, confirmed to Jane`s publication an intention to keep the current export product line in the long run, while developing the next generation combat aircraft designed to compete in world markets with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.


In addition, representatives of AVIC and the Russian aviation industry confirmed the publication that in the foreseeable future, Chinese fighter programs will remain dependent on Russian engines.

According to the newspaper, this thesis is consistent with what was reported to Salyut and other Russian engine builders by the Commander-in-Chief of the Chinese Air Force in November 2010. According to him, Russian suppliers of aircraft engines "can rely on the continuation of firm orders for at least the next five years. "

And at the end of September 2013, AVIC representatives announced that they would continue “to use Russian engines for another five to eight years, since the development and production of their own aviation engines remains the biggest challenge to the core business unit. " RD-93, which was exhibited in Beijing, was covered with a cloth both from the side of the low-pressure compressor blades and from the nozzle side so that they could not be photographed, since one of the applications of this modification is the installation of two engines on what AVIC representatives call exclusively "The concept of an advanced fighter" (Advanced Fighter Concept, AFC)

Previously, this fighter was designated as J-31 and "Project 310". According to AVIC representatives, it is being developed “for deliveries to foreign markets and competition with F-35, and for deliveries to the Chinese Air Force it was not originally intended”. Like JF-17, which is produced jointly with Pakistan, AFC is supposed to "develop with the participation of a foreign partner." At the same time, although the aircraft is intended to compete with the F-35, the deck version - contrary to earlier reports - is not in the plans (this seems to be reported for the first time - note P.2).

Another flagship of the Chinese aviation industry, J-20, is rumored to be equipped with the 117-C engine developed by the Russian NPO Saturn - the same as that of the Su-35 and T-50.

According to documents published by Edward Snowden, Chinese fifth-generation fighter programs are a blank spot in the picture of the world of American intelligence. Official intelligence reports claim that J-31 and J-20 are far behind American competitors in terms of stealth and the development of relevant technologies, but the Chinese are progressing much faster than could be expected as they stole technological secrets from the networks of the US Department of Defense and its contractors.
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42 comments
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  1. C-600
    C-600 10 October 2013 10: 04 New
    11
    and ours doesn’t need to steal anything, they’ll give
    1. Romn
      Romn 10 October 2013 10: 23 New
      +5
      As long as this addiction exists, sales must be stopped urgently!
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 10 October 2013 10: 38 New
        20
        Quote: Romn
        sales must be urgently stopped!

        Sales do not need to be stopped, you need to use Chinese components for the production of engines intended for China. laughing
        1. AVV
          AVV 10 October 2013 11: 08 New
          0
          The Chinese, as always, decided to take the buyer at the price, not quality, since their engines are still very raw, and the aircraft equipment, i.e. projects of this equipment, for the most part stolen !!! And what is yours, still very far from perfect !!!
      2. teleset
        teleset 10 October 2013 11: 06 New
        0
        I think it’s too late to stop sales, they have already copied everything they wanted.
      3. Bezarius
        Bezarius 10 October 2013 13: 03 New
        +3
        That is unnecessary. There are things that even the Chinese cannot copy. One of these things is just these very engines. While they can establish a copy, we will go one step further. And given their scientific potential, I doubt that they will be able to develop their own copy.
    2. SAG
      SAG 10 October 2013 10: 36 New
      +8
      Quote: C-600
      and ours doesn’t need to steal anything, they’ll give

      Who is it with yours ?? You have the flag of the European Union ... and there the public is so mottled that it’s like in the saying: "Ours are waving your ..!" hi
    3. michajlo
      michajlo 10 October 2013 13: 54 New
      -1
      C-600 EU Today, 10:04 AM _131010 / Even New

      Hello Nikolai!

      You are right in your statement of "highly patriotic entrepreneurs and government officials" with a dollar on his chest.

      Since the trace of a star on the chest of a patriot is now considered shameful and interfering with his career and success ...
    4. Airman
      Airman 10 October 2013 15: 37 New
      0
      Quote: C-600
      and ours doesn’t need to steal anything, they’ll give

      It is interesting why the Chinese pressed our leaders so that all the most modern developments, first of all to them, even the film "Stalingrad" will be the first to be shown to the Chinese overseas.
  2. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 10 October 2013 10: 14 New
    +1
    "The RD-93, which was exhibited in Beijing, was covered with fabric both from the side of the compressor blades of the low pressure and from the nozzle side, so that they could not be photographed, since one of the applications of this modification is to install two engines on what AVIC representatives call exclusively “Advanced Fighter Concept (AFC)”

    From whom to cover it? The Chinese will rivet planes and export. what
    1. xetai9977
      xetai9977 10 October 2013 10: 31 New
      +2
      They can’t create their own engine, but they are talking about 5th generation aircraft. On copying, you will not be a leader, but you will always lag behind.
  3. IRBIS
    IRBIS 10 October 2013 10: 14 New
    +5
    Well, at least something has not yet been rested, bros are yellow-faced. And copying does not work - the engine does not fit into the copier.
    But seriously, it is necessary to share their developments with reasonable countries with reasonable limits.
    1. Airman
      Airman 10 October 2013 11: 05 New
      +3
      Quote: IRBIS
      Well, at least something has not yet been rested, bros are yellow-faced. And copying does not work - the engine does not fit into the copier.
      But seriously, it is necessary to share their developments with reasonable countries with reasonable limits.

      I already wrote that the time has come for the latest developments abroad, especially not to deliver to China. Having put the Chinas, we immediately get the clones and we lose sales markets.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 10 October 2013 11: 19 New
        +3
        Quote: Povshnik
        long time has come the latest developments abroad, especially to China, do not deliver.

        Your words are to guidance in the ears, and our thoughts are to their egg-headed heads.
  4. major071
    major071 10 October 2013 10: 14 New
    +6
    Although China's aviation industry has taken a big step, but still the industry is not yet able to repeat production technology. And on one copy you will not go far. hi
  5. hrych
    hrych 10 October 2013 10: 20 New
    16
    With these, everything is clear, for decades, the mind wasn’t enough to copy, it’s not for you the spoofed iPhones. But NASA's much-vaunted ostensibly trampled moon, is completely dependent on our RD-180 for their fifth Atlases. There is no higher technology than aerospace in nature, but ours are self-abasing, saying that Vanka is useless for anything, an iPhone cannot assemble, but a closed-cycle engine may not be what rice-eaters Lockheed Martin cannot copy for ten years.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 10 October 2013 10: 44 New
      +2
      Quote: hrych
      this is not you iphones counterfeit spank

      They slap them at night on the same line as the real ones. It’s good that ours didn’t take out the production of engines in China. Otherwise, we would also drive “our own developments” into the night shift. Although I would not be surprised if they endure.
    2. Strezhevchanin
      Strezhevchanin 10 October 2013 10: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: hrych
      for decades, the mind was not enough to copy

      So that it prompted them that it is necessary to copy engineers, but not the engine! hi
      So I want to ask the question, "Well, who is the engine of progress"?
    3. seller trucks
      seller trucks 10 October 2013 11: 00 New
      +3
      Quote: hrych
      With these, everything is clear, for decades, the mind wasn’t enough to copy, it’s not for you the spoofed iPhones.


      as for iPhones, Apple itself has placed and not only it, its production in China, so that the Chinese are the most “honest” in the United States until they are produced, secondly, the Chinese themselves produce quite good phones under their brands, for example, I daughters in early summer bought Xiaomi Mi2, a bomb apparatus, and costs at least 2 times cheaper, Lenovo, Huawei, Ainol, Cube brands, please buy in Russia.

      And they cannot start making engines because for starters it is necessary to achieve Russian standards (there are, thank God, such), at one time the USSR faced the same problems in the production of jet aircraft after the war buying engines over a hill. What can I say, even if the Americans, with all their high technology, buy RD-180 engines manufactured by NPO Energomash in Russia
      1. Russ69
        Russ69 10 October 2013 11: 40 New
        0
        Quote: seller trucks
        What can I say, even if the Americans, with all their high technologies, buy RD-180 engines produced by NPO Energomash in Russia

        Maybe they can do it ... But, according to their own estimates, it takes about 10 years and several billion bucks.
        For this, copying is simply not profitable ...
      2. Nitup
        Nitup 10 October 2013 12: 19 New
        0
        Quote: seller trucks
        Apple himself posted and not only he

        I believe that it meant the unlicensed production of iPhones in China
        1. seller trucks
          seller trucks 10 October 2013 17: 04 New
          0
          Quote: Nitup
          I believe that it meant the unlicensed production of iPhones in China


          I report

          All Apple appliances, including the iPhone and iPad, are manufactured in China at the world's only Apple Foxconn plant and nowhere else. There are no iPhones and iPads made in the USA, Europe or elsewhere, this is a myth! Many people confuse the concept of the country of delivery with the concept of the country of manufacture.


          http://mac-story.ru/faq/

      3. Airman
        Airman 10 October 2013 15: 15 New
        0
        Quote: seller trucks
        What can I say, even if the Americans, with all their high technologies, buy RD-180 engines produced by NPO Energomash in Russia

        Americans can make an engine, but before starting it is necessary to “run around” at the stand, bring it to mind, and the stand is a very expensive thing, and so they came to the conclusion that it is easier to pay with candy wrappers than to build a stand. For some reason, Americans are not selling us anything from military technology.
        1. seller trucks
          seller trucks 10 October 2013 17: 10 New
          0
          Quote: Povshnik
          Americans can make an engine


          In the morning I feel that half a liter, but I can not prove!
    4. Nitup
      Nitup 10 October 2013 12: 17 New
      +1
      Quote: hrych
      There are no higher technologies than aerospace in nature

      Yes, these are just aircraft engines
  6. nod739
    nod739 10 October 2013 10: 23 New
    +1
    a clear signal is given - 5 years of handicap to make the next generation engine.
    well, or at least improve the performance of existing
    1. IGS
      IGS 10 October 2013 10: 48 New
      0
      This is not a handicap. Understand what they are doing has brought their intellectual potential to a standstill. It will take them about 20 years to change the generation of developers who are not "blinkered" on copying. We need a different approach in the design business, some courage, originality, a normal designer, can never copy anything, be sure to add her own. So the more they copy, the deeper they get bogged down in this swamp, the more their design school is only developing, and the copying method has become its basis. I hold the opinion.
      Quote: xetai9977
      On copying, you will not be a leader, but you will always lag behind.
      1. Basileus
        Basileus 10 October 2013 10: 56 New
        0
        Well, two new cars, if copies, are very free. Maybe that’s what happens.
      2. Altona
        Altona 10 October 2013 11: 31 New
        +2
        The thesis is generally true, I remind readers that the Soviet Union in these areas followed the Chinese path in the 30s and until the beginning of the 50s, generously copying foreign developments in which he lagged behind and for which he did not yet have sufficient scientific and technological bases, then this rethought experience served as an impetus for the development of our own developments, so do not belittle the Chinese ... While they are copying, and then if they start something themselves, they will be able to break away from everyone ...
        1. IGS
          IGS 10 October 2013 13: 09 New
          0
          I was engaged, but all the copies were a temporary patch, in order to gain time to develop our own designs, take the same Tu-4, which was produced only 5 years ago, never copying was laid in the foundation of the domestic design business, since it is in the definition of this the words. In China, they are engaged not in the development of their own ideas, but in adapting strangers to their production conditions, in particular to their level of metallurgy and metal processing, with the maximum possible correspondence to the original. Feel the difference? Xerox and typewriter are two different things, although the result, like, is one - a sheet of paper with text. This applies not only to military equipment. It has become a kind of ideology. So she will keep them in her development.
          1. Avenger711
            Avenger711 10 October 2013 15: 59 New
            0
            The Tu-4 was already outdated by that time, the era of jet engines was coming.
            1. IGS
              IGS 10 October 2013 17: 31 New
              0
              Then you will call any copy which would serve longer. Or, if the Chinese have already switched to 5th generation aircraft, then they should have already learned how to design and build simpler things themselves, name such a thing, they copy cars while preserving the design even in small things. There is one thing that the Chinese really created, although the idea is not theirs, it is a Chinese keyboard for PC.
    2. SAG
      SAG 10 October 2013 10: 51 New
      0
      The scientific and production association Saturn has begun preparing a new engine for the promising T-50 fighter (PAK FA) for bench tests. This was stated by Yevgeny Marchukov, general designer and director of the Lyulka Scientific and Technical Center, which is part of Saturn. Tests of the new engine will begin in 2014.
      The adoption of the fighter based on the T-50, moved for no apparent reason in 2017, perhaps they want to accept with the native engines "Type 30", and not from the transition phase "Products 117". IMHO
      The detonation pulsating engines are marching on the Raptors, judging by their work ... in many ways, I think, because of them, in particular, F-22s are not delivered. So, in this regard we are 15-20 years behind the Americans sad
      But by the same 15-20 we are ahead of the Chinese ... all their engines of their own design are a miserable parody of ours (the power is comparable, but the resource to hell)
      1. Basileus
        Basileus 10 October 2013 12: 00 New
        +1
        Pratt & Whitney F119 is an aircraft high-temperature turbojet dual-circuit engine with an afterburner and a vertically controlled thrust vector developed by Pratt & Whitney for the 5th generation Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor fighter.

        Serial pulse motors do not exist even in the USA.
        1. Avenger711
          Avenger711 10 October 2013 16: 01 New
          0
          The pulsating engine would not be so unseen, but they seem to be used only in aircraft modeling.
      2. Avenger711
        Avenger711 10 October 2013 16: 00 New
        0
        There is no detonation-pulsating motor-like motor, moreover, in terms of specific thrust of the same level as 117C.
  7. Odysseus
    Odysseus 10 October 2013 10: 42 New
    +2
    The Chinese are twisting something. RD-93 is being purchased for export FC-1s delivered to Pakistan and will indeed be purchased for at least another 5-6 years. But what does the J-31 have to do with it? It is possible to put the RD-93 on the prototype, but on the whole it is clearly visible that there is not enough traction. It is not clear what they are going to put on it.
    As for the J-20 and 117C, the situation is clearer. If they buy a small batch of Su-35, then they need an engine.
  8. tennis
    tennis 10 October 2013 10: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: hrych
    There are no higher technologies than aerospace in nature, but ours all self-abase, saying that Vanka is useless for anything, an iPhone cannot assemble, but a closed-cycle engine can


    Gold words. And then here I also looked at a lot of figures with "iron arguments" - "but to collect the same phone weakly?" This is the height of their dreams and the ceiling of everything else.
    1. Altona
      Altona 10 October 2013 13: 07 New
      +1
      Everything can be assembled and put into production, for this you just need to create the appropriate industry-production of microcircuits, production of screens, contain a staff of programmers, hardware developers, designers, etc. If it’s not there, then you don’t have to say ... It’s also impossible to say that we can’t do this ... There are enough brains ... Another thing is that China is a huge country, a huge population, it is possible to develop industry, various industries, domestic market ... And now we are with the population of Pakistan, we have such a domestic market, so many people, plus the degradation of science and education for the sake of the liberal model, which is imprisoned for buy-sell ... That's all ...
      1. Basileus
        Basileus 10 October 2013 14: 41 New
        0
        Had Pakistan. 50 million more people live there.
  9. ia-ai00
    ia-ai00 10 October 2013 11: 00 New
    +4
    ... intelligence reports claim that the J-31 and J-20 are far behind American competitors in terms of stealth and the development of related technologies, but the Chinese progress much fasterthan you might expect ...

    I would like to hope that the Russian designers will progress no less than the Chinese, so that neither the Chinese have time in this area, no one else to COME ON FIVE.
  10. fklj
    fklj 10 October 2013 11: 00 New
    0
    Our specialists need to roll up their sleeves. A lot of work.
    Good hunting!

    By the way, those who sold the documentation for the Su-27 should be judged.
  11. ed65b
    ed65b 10 October 2013 11: 03 New
    +1
    Already create a new one. and they will create five years, they will sell what they have now, then another 20 years, the one that they will do. China is forever behind Russia and the United States. these are not rivets with pasaonikov
    1. Basileus
      Basileus 10 October 2013 12: 02 New
      +1
      The Soviet Union in 20-30gg also lagged far behind the rest in technology. But somehow he managed to catch up to the war, and in some places surpass the world leaders.
  12. Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 10 October 2013 11: 05 New
    +1
    They probably can’t copy because they did not understand the alloy compositions. So the latest engines they do not sell, only the previous ones.
    The Americans, in spite of their protective technologies, can sell the most advanced and only with their services and only to their closest allies, and Russia what? Not dumber than whales?
    Nobody wants to sell her products with the latest technology - you can’t value them with money. And she should do the same!
  13. teleset
    teleset 10 October 2013 11: 12 New
    0
    I agree with you completely. I would like to hope that this is a big game of Russia in terms of pulling in the armament of China and, if anything, so, together with China, to throw off American gigimony from the pedal.
  14. Fin
    Fin 10 October 2013 11: 14 New
    0
    Russian aircraft engine suppliers “can rely with confidence on the continuation of firm orders for at least the next five years.”

    If we do not have traitors, then they will not do anything for about 20 years. Stupidly making the same detail is not all. And metal alloys, manufacturing technology. These are not auto engines.
  15. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 10 October 2013 11: 40 New
    0
    It turns out that not everything is copied; there is some limit. They don’t write about this, but we, too, are doing our best to catch up with the United States in engine building, and if we could just copy it, we would have done it a long time ago. But no, the porcelain compressor with the F-22 is not given in any way.
  16. Koronik
    Koronik 10 October 2013 12: 08 New
    +1
    Well done Chinese! Few words more deeds. This is how you need to work, no information, just guesses and everything new for yourself.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. ayuric
    ayuric 10 October 2013 12: 25 New
    0
    so, if the Chinese started with down jackets, then home appliances, right now the auto industry, planes are on the horizon, and so on, given their role and place in the global economy, in the near future they can very well catch up with leaders, and possibly surpass them. Even if the technologies and technologists are raw, but they can copy, and if they do not learn, then they will start to buy brains with the consequences that arise from them. Do not underestimate them.
  19. shtanko.49
    shtanko.49 10 October 2013 12: 39 New
    +2
    China will simply force Russia to move forward, and not sit on the developments of the 80s, let them copy, for now they are copying with us, and not ours, but we need to hurry.
  20. pahom54
    pahom54 10 October 2013 14: 07 New
    0
    Copy then copy, but what's the point? Russia does not transfer technology to them, but ready-made engines ... For example, I’ll bring Kalashnikov’s assault rifles and TT pistols made in China - their reliability is much inferior to the reliability of the production of the same weapons in the USSR-Russia ... So the copied engine will be different in the first place for the worse, reliability and resource intensity, and then to the rest ...
  21. Avenger711
    Avenger711 10 October 2013 16: 07 New
    +1
    RD-93 is a variant of the RD-33 from the MiG-29, for the F-35 class cars are frankly weak, if not 3 sticks at once. This motor is not some kind of top-secret machine. Moreover, it seems very likely that this is a variant of old modifications, newer versions for the MiG-29K, MiG-35 Chinese, it seems, no one thinks to deliver.