Military Review

Shame with the "Watch"

74
Shame with the "Watch"



Our armored car is the best friend of the Polish grader

At the recent MSPO – 2013 International Defense Industry Exhibition MSPO – XNUMX, which took place recently in the Polish city of Kielce, the Ukrainian combat armored vehicle (BBM) DozorB developed by the Kharkov Design Bureau
them. Morozov.

Interest in it was not accidental: just a week before the exhibition, Polish and Ukrainian media reported that this car would be produced in Poland under license. The Polish version of DozoraB is called Oncilla and differs from the Ukrainian original in full compliance with NATO standards for ballistic and mine protection. Moreover, the first prototype of this machine was already assembled at the end of July this year by a Polish manufacturer, but with the use of components from Ukraine.

It would seem an unprecedented case: the country - a member of NATO is preparing to issue Ukrainian armored vehicles under license! Are Western countries really so interested in our weapons, what even are ready to produce it under license? However, before making such sudden conclusions, it is worth understanding. As a closer look doesn’t look so optimistic.

To begin with, with all the long-standing assurances of friendship between Kiev and Warsaw, their military-technical cooperation has never been particularly successful. Moreover, if the Ukrainian and Polish gunsmiths met on the global arms market, then perhaps as direct competitors. And, as a rule, these meetings ended with our defeat, but mainly for political reasons. And it was the scope of the sale of armored vehicles became the scene of the main opposition.

The classic example was история with a tender for the purchase of Ukrainian tanks Malaysia in 2002, in which experts predicted a victory either to Kiev, representing the T84 tank, or Moscow with the T90S tank. Moreover, Ukrainian experts convinced: T84 is more suitable for the climatic conditions of Malaysia than cars of other manufacturers. And the RT91 “Tvarda” tank submitted to the Poles for tender was not taken seriously by anyone at all. Against the background of Ukrainian and Russian ultramodern vehicles, it looked rather faded, since it was not new - it was nothing more than a modernized Soviet T72 tank developed in the late 60s of the last century.

But the Poles won! Moreover, the Malays readily laid out for the Polish modernization of the old Soviet tank a total of 250 million dollars - by 3,9 million per unit. This is despite the fact that the Ukrainians requested about 2,5 million dollars for one really new tank. As our "defense industry" noted, such an unexpected turn in the Malaysian tender was entirely on the conscience of Ukrainian diplomats who did not pay enough attention to bilateral relations between our countries. However, the matter was obviously still different: in Malaysia, the Western arms lobby came out against Ukrainian design ideas and technologies. And of course she won.

This case made Ukrainian tank builders wary. The fact is that Poland, not differing in the development and production of its own original armored vehicles, nonetheless very actively modernizes Soviet designs, including those made in Ukraine. In addition to the allegedly their PT91, in fact “converted” from the Т72 tanks, the Poles can offer a whole range of Soviet-Soviet “hybrids” that are relevant to the countries of the former socialist camp. For example, the BWO40 armored vehicle offered by them is the MTLB multi-purpose armored tractor developed and manufactured in Kharkov with the 40mm Swedish cannon. At the same time, there is more than enough “material” in Poland for the production of “its own” armored vehicles on its base - more than 700 armored vehicles, including Ukrainian MTLBs, are stored there. The most continuously declining Polish army all this good is simply useless.

However, all good things end sooner or later. The success of modernized equipment among serious buyers is also decreasing. Therefore, now Poland is banking on the production of new weapons and their promotion in the arms market. And Ukrainians were even invited as partners. In particular, in May of this year, Deputy Minister of Defense of Ukraine Arturo Babenko, who took part in the Ukrainian-Polish forum on defense-related issues in Warsaw, upon his return to Kiev, happily announced that we would jointly develop and promote weapons and military equipment in third countries.

No one doubted that Ukrainian tank builders have a powerful potential and it is interesting for Poles not shining with their own developments. But the fact that Poland, as a member of NATO, is really ready to create new weapons and trade them together with the Ukrainians as equal partners, it is hard to believe.

As the current situation with the release of the Ukrainian BBM "DozorB" under license in Poland, these doubts were justified. Because it is not clear what the leadership of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine agreed on in Warsaw, but it doesn’t mean anything like an equal partnership in the development and joint sale of armored vehicles to third countries. “DozorB” is the newest development of the Ukrainian defense industry (for the first time the car was presented at Khreshchatyk in Kiev on the Independence Day of Ukraine 24 August 2009 of the year). As it turned out, they don’t need it in their own army - when Yanukovych came to power, the Defense Ministry of Ukraine did not have the money to buy it. The Poles immediately took advantage of this situation by proposing to sell them a license for this development. Judging by the fact that Ukrainian developers completely refuse to name the amount of the contract, we are talking about very small money. Indeed, in a similar situation, would Polish manufacturers lay out serious sums?

The most interesting thing is that the production of the licensed DozoraB in Poland will be handled by the company Mista, which has no relation to the military-industrial complex: it specializes in machines for excavation and road works. That is, in fact, from the Ukrainian defense industry for a penny, technologies are being pumped out not only by Western “defense industry”, as it was before, but also by manufacturers ... of graders.

On the one hand, Ukrainian designers selling licenses for their offspring abroad can be understood: if new weapons and equipment do not need their own army and other siloviki, why not sell a license to manufacture them? Let at least others let out, since they don’t appreciate theirs. Poles can also be understood: it is a sin not to use Ukrainian developments, since they were not useful in Ukraine itself.

On the other hand, we have a deplorable result: the domestic design idea works not for its defense power, but for someone else’s. By the way, the Poles have already stated that they have an agreement with a certain country that is ready to purchase several dozens of these machines, and by the end of this year the corresponding contract will be signed. That is, making money on “DozoreB”, which was “repainted” in Oncilla, is quite realistic. Only, alas, this money will not go into our pocket. And it can’t be called a shame ...
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  1. domokl
    domokl 19 September 2013 07: 59 New
    28
    This is just the beginning ... Then it will be completely fun. recourse
    1. albanech
      albanech 19 September 2013 08: 55 New
      +1
      Well said!
      1. Kars
        Kars 19 September 2013 10: 19 New
        11
        The most interesting thing is that the production of the licensed DozoraB in Poland will be handled by the Mista company, which is not related to the defense industry complex: it specializes in machines for excavation and road works.


        It’s interesting, who cares? The main thing is that they would pay for a license and deductions for each sold copy. And specialization is how they began to make tank guns at a pipe factory.

        Because it is not clear what the leadership of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine agreed in Warsaw, but we are not talking about any equal partnership in the development and joint sale of armored vehicles to third countries.

        and the author burns --- he does not know what they are negotiating about, but he draws conclusions.

        Judging by the fact that Ukrainian developers completely refuse to give the amount of the contract, we are talking about very little money.

        But are they obliged? How much did the license for an APC Patria cost?

        about is in fact from the Ukrainian defense industry for pennies pumped

        again, the author is not aware of any sums. of the terms of the contract but draws conclusions.
        1. smiths xnumx
          smiths xnumx 19 September 2013 10: 25 New
          +7
          The most interesting thing is that the production of the licensed DozoraB in Poland will be handled by the Mista company, which is not related to the defense industry complex: it specializes in machines for excavation and road works.

          Firstly, the Watch is "100 years old at lunchtime" - it is a rather old development, of the late 90s; secondly, are you sure that the main products of the enterprise are road machinery? I’m not, because at the same KhTZ plant, tractors were not the main product. And all the modifications supposedly made by the Poles - mine-resistant barrel-shaped bottom, hinged armor, a winch - were developed for him in Kharkov, and installed in Kiev - so there is only a screwdriver assembly and painting there.
          1. Nick
            Nick 19 September 2013 10: 36 New
            +8
            Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
            Are you sure that the main products of the enterprise are road equipment? I’m not here, because at the same plant KhTZ tractors were not the main products.

            And the Russian Uralvagonzavod also produces more than one car ...
            1. Apologet.Ru
              Apologet.Ru 19 September 2013 13: 25 New
              +2
              hi
              And that’s not all.
              The same psekalki became interested in the licensed release of high-precision shells developed in Ukraine.
              And this is a diagnosis.
              And will it still be ...
              And Russia is doing the right thing in anticipation of Nenko’s economic marriage with Gey.ropa and warped love with NATO, redeeming Ukraine from intellectual rights to its aviation developments, for example AN-148.
              It’s a pity that we didn’t have time with An-70 ...

            2. Apologet.Ru
              Apologet.Ru 19 September 2013 13: 40 New
              0
              hi
              Yeah, and "vertical take-off mowers" yes .
              1. Avenger711
                Avenger711 19 September 2013 16: 59 New
                0
                "We will release a harvester on the field."
    2. Airman
      Airman 19 September 2013 20: 55 New
      0
      Quote: domokl
      This is just the beginning ... Then it will be completely fun. recourse

      You are not the only ones, ours, too, at the beginning they sell our most modern equipment abroad, greed for candy wrappers blinds you.
  2. shark
    shark 19 September 2013 08: 13 New
    10
    What Ukraine, new friends-owners offend? well cry, it will become easier. You can give a couple of developments to present. What you won’t do for the sake of European integration bully
    1. Refund_SSSR
      Refund_SSSR 19 September 2013 08: 43 New
      19
      Yes, with us, China, as it were, does not even copy under license, but simply COPIES.
      And not some sort of armored car of three pennies, but quite a SERIOUS technique ...
      So in vain your sarcasm .. it is not appropriate.

      It’s not only that China is copying ours, but also with the help of ours, it is becoming the world leader in arms sales and is global competition for us!
      This is not some kind of musty Poland with tanks of the day before yesterday!
      1. eplewke
        eplewke 19 September 2013 10: 23 New
        +8
        After joining the EU, Ukraine will begin not to sell military equipment, but to forcefully buy Western equipment ...
    2. klimpopov
      klimpopov 19 September 2013 09: 06 New
      +6
      Have we given our developments a little? Remind me?
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 19 September 2013 10: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: klimpopov
        Have we given our developments a little? Remind me?

        In America, you can easily, and not expensively, buy TT pistols of Romanian or Yugoslavian production, but not the original Tula one. There were also Chinese, but somehow the State Department decided to punish NORINCO, I don’t remember for what, and closed their supply license. The same with the Kalashnikov clones, the Romanian and Yugoslavian ones - as much as you like, and the Izhevsk ones - only in the form of a "saiga" with a modified butt combined with the grip (I'm not sure if this is more convenient than the standard AK stock and pistol grip), and very expensive. Why is that? I don’t know, and I don’t dare to guess, but looking at it is unpleasant.
        1. mejik
          mejik 19 September 2013 10: 36 New
          +1
          Quote: Nagan
          and Izhevsk - only in the form of a "saiga" with a modified butt, combined with the handle (I'm not sure if this is more convenient than the standard butt and pistol grip AK),

          With this butt, you can shoot bursts of saiga carbine with only a single fire. The method is called bumpfire. There are many videos in the yatrub, look. Butt with a handle is replaced by movable components ... And forward, in bursts of twelfth caliber.
          1. mejik
            mejik 19 September 2013 15: 51 New
            0
            Quote: mejik
            And forward, bursts of twelfth caliber.

      2. Nick
        Nick 19 September 2013 10: 23 New
        +5
        And we are alone with Ukraine, although currently divided, people ...
        1. Deniska
          Deniska 19 September 2013 11: 28 New
          +5
          I think WESTERN UKRAINE obviously will not agree with you))
          1. smirnov
            smirnov 19 September 2013 13: 14 New
            +1
            Ukraine is one country only nominally, we have long been divided into two parts ...
          2. Avenger711
            Avenger711 19 September 2013 16: 59 New
            +2
            We will gladly select them in a separate state of Galicia.
          3. Nick
            Nick 20 September 2013 10: 36 New
            0
            Quote: Deniska
            I think WESTERN UKRAINE obviously will not agree with you))

            The fact of this will not cease to be a fact ...
    3. v.lyamkin
      v.lyamkin 19 September 2013 13: 31 New
      +1
      No, I somehow do not believe that this can be expected from an EU member. remember, as in "Pokrovskie gates": "High relations". So there can be no scam from an EU member, and even Poland. I do not believe!!!
  3. Sewer
    Sewer 19 September 2013 08: 15 New
    +1
    “On the other hand, we have a disastrous result: the domestic design idea works not for its own defense power, but for someone else's. By the way, the Poles have already announced that they have an agreement with a certain country that is ready to buy several dozen of these machines, and until the end of this a corresponding contract will be signed. That is, making money on DozoreB, which has been “repainted” in Oncilla, is quite real. Only, alas, this money will not go into our pockets. And it cannot be called anything other than a shame ... "
    And did they, by naivety, expect something else?
    1. domokl
      domokl 19 September 2013 08: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Sewer
      And did they, by naivety, expect something else?

      repeat I didn’t read something here, not only one Ukrainian, but also Russian, who would like Ukraine a bit of luck. Everything seems to be good. And the result ... By the way, we are doing something similar. We’re just not selling licenses. We’re selling new equipment and weapons .u the army itself for the most part on obsolete equipment. and we sell the latest ... The results of a long worship of democracy, her mother would ...
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 19 September 2013 17: 04 New
        +2
        I, as a patriot of Russia, see the future of Ukraine only as part of Russia with the dismantling of all separatist nonsense, starting with the mov, which, however, is dying thanks to the Internet, otherwise Little Russia is doomed to be a territory of a permanent crisis and a battlefield between Russian and European civilizations. If someone sincerely believes that m_o_s_k_a_l_i and Ukraine has been oppressed for centuries, he can also be a patriot in his own way, but unfortunately the best wishes based on incorrect initial data lead to hell.
  4. Basileus
    Basileus 19 September 2013 08: 16 New
    11
    Moreover, in Poland there was more than enough “material” for the production of “their own” armored vehicles on its basis - more than 700 armored vehicles, including Ukrainian MTLBs, are stored there.

    There are no Ukrainian MTLBs in Poland. There are Soviet ones.
    1. vlad_pr
      vlad_pr 19 September 2013 12: 08 New
      0
      Terms such as "Soviet" or something else do not matter. These are the property of the Poles, and they have the right to use them and do with them whatever their left heel wishes. Alas, these are the realities.
      Sincerely.
      1. Basileus
        Basileus 19 September 2013 12: 41 New
        +1
        Terms like "Ukrainian" in relation to the equipment that Poland left from the Soviet Union do not matter. There was then neither Russia, nor Ukraine, nor a dozen other countries. So my amendment concerned exactly this, about whose property it is, there was no talk. I think it was clear from the quote.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 19 September 2013 13: 35 New
          -3
          Quote: Basileus
          There was then neither Russia nor Ukraine

          Tin and Texas and California not? There was both Russia and Ukraine!
          1. Basileus
            Basileus 19 September 2013 13: 59 New
            +1
            And what, the products that are made in Texas with California are sold "Made in California"? By your logic, the Abrams is not an American tank, but, hmm, an Ohio one?
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 19 September 2013 17: 46 New
              -1
              Quote: Basileus
              And what, the products that are made in Texas with California are sold "Made in California"? By your logic, the Abrams is not an American tank, but, hmm, an Ohio one?

              Stupid pun, in the style of Western propaganda. There was such a political entity as Russia (RSFSR) and Ukraine (USSR). Ha, Russia was not, let's celebrate the 20th anniversary of the formation of Russia. Insanity on the march.
              1. Basileus
                Basileus 20 September 2013 09: 56 New
                +1
                In the United States, even now, the states enjoy greater freedom than the union republics in the USSR, and, even more so, the subjects of the federation in Russia. However, they all produce "Made in the USA" products. So why should the T-64 or MTLB be Ukrainian, and the T-72, for example, Russian, when the entire Union was involved in their development and production?
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 20 September 2013 10: 42 New
                  0
                  Quote: Basileus
                  However, they all produce "Made in the USA" products.

                  And what about the phrase "made in Krasnodar" then? Is Krasnodar a separate state? Where what has been done is not a sign of statehood, but simply a designation of territorial affiliation.
                  1. Basileus
                    Basileus 20 September 2013 10: 54 New
                    0
                    Made in Krasnodar is actually sold in Krasnodar, and solely as support from a local manufacturer. Once again - if MTLB is a Ukrainian armored personnel carrier, then Abrams is an Ohai tank.
  5. Strashila
    Strashila 19 September 2013 08: 19 New
    15
    And the shame ... they did ... they sold ... or it’s necessary that I don’t eat according to the principle, so I’m biting. Our armored cars in Serbia are collecting ... they are also stigmatized like that. We bought bullshit Lynx from Italy ... that's a shame.
    1. Warrawar
      Warrawar 19 September 2013 08: 24 New
      +6
      Quote: Strashila
      We bought bullshit Lynx from the Italians ... this is a shame.

      We have already given up this "Lynx". It was Serdyukov who bought foreign technology, apparently not disinterestedly, but this has yet to be revealed.
      1. mirag2
        mirag2 19 September 2013 10: 48 New
        +1
        Serdyukov bought the equipment not because of kickbacks, but because we didn’t have the necessary equipment for production to equip the army brigades being created in us. I recently read an article here from a knowledgeable person.
  6. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 19 September 2013 08: 29 New
    +6
    from the Don.
    The first CALLS when sinking Ukraine to the bottom. All technologies will float to the West, as ours once floated under Tsar-Borisk. With the stubbornness of a ram, Ukraine creeps into the Geyropaic: PARADISE:! But as they say, Having removed their heads, they do not cry through their hair !!!!
    1. seller trucks
      seller trucks 19 September 2013 09: 56 New
      +4
      Quote: borisjdin1957
      The first CALLS when diving Ukraine to the bottom.


      but what kind of "bell" is it already "alarm". I tried to post an article on VO about the problem of standardization: Perspective for Ukraine: life by other people's standards
      here http://ru.golos.ua/politika/13_09_04_perspektiva_dlya_ukrainyi_jizn_po_chujim_st
      andartam

      Today, a set of rules and regulations, covering virtually all aspects of the economic life of the EU countries, leaves almost 95 thousand pages. And this list is constantly expanding and updated.

      Ukraine, in fact, can bury many that have grown, since: metallurgy, chemical industry, machine-building equipment, aircraft construction, railway transport, these have been "sharpened" under the GOST of the CIS countries, now Ukraine will be forced to switch to EU standards, modernization with all the consequences, but who will give, EU? I doubt it. , well, what else is fraught with sin, the countries included in the CU made it clear that they would not buy many products.
  7. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 19 September 2013 08: 30 New
    +6
    Ukraine is left to get into the European Union and NATO. After that, there will be practically nothing left of its industry, including the defense one. And the once prosperous country will turn into a supplier of workers (as happened with the Baltic countries), a market for Western products and a springboard for further attacks on Russia
  8. aszzz888
    aszzz888 19 September 2013 08: 38 New
    0
    Whoever chooses the path will overcome the walking one?
    Doubtful, very doubtful ...
  9. brewhouse
    brewhouse 19 September 2013 08: 40 New
    +4
    On the one hand, Ukrainian designers selling licenses for their offspring abroad can be understood ...
    On the other hand, we have a deplorable result ...


    This deplorable result was expected and predicted. These results will be repeated until their sum leads Ukraine to complete collapse.
    Like all fools, Ukraine prefers to learn not from strangers, but from its mistakes. More precisely, this 404 state does not learn anything. It is uneducable, since it is completely devoid of state brains.
  10. Selevc
    Selevc 19 September 2013 08: 45 New
    +7
    Listen - the fact that Russia is actually unable to make a helicopter-class ship - THAT IS A SHAME !!! So much with pomp they talked about this and wrote like - "We started building ... etc. and Japan itself quietly and calmly built a ship of this class ... And the story with GLONNAS is also a shame ...

    And with the Watch there is nothing unusual - a lot of countries sell their military patents and developments to other countries and they already have a license to produce this equipment and sell it to anyone ... It is much worse that the Ukrainian army does not need such machines - since the army is virtually eliminated today ...
    1. Deniska
      Deniska 19 September 2013 11: 39 New
      +3
      Finally, the opinion of the Ukrainian! Yes, we also have enough shame)))

      As for the "Patrol", there is no shame. If an enterprise cannot secure a job at the expense of the internal and external markets, due to various circumstances. Why not sell the license, I think the right decision, especially since almost all components will be of Ukrainian origin.


      And as for Russia: "Vikramaditya", "Lynx", "Mistral", "GLONASS" - let's just think about it !!!
    2. Black
      Black 19 September 2013 16: 01 New
      +2
      Quote: Selevc
      Listen - the fact that Russia is actually not able to make a helicopter class ship - THIS IS A SHAME !!!


      Well, no matter how nice it is .... right ...
      Quote: Selevc
      It is much worse that the Ukrainian army does not need such machines - since the army itself has actually been eliminated today ...


      Here, definitely not to pride!
    3. Avenger711
      Avenger711 19 September 2013 17: 07 New
      +1
      GLONASS actually works.
      1. Selevc
        Selevc 19 September 2013 20: 39 New
        +1
        Unlike the long-running NAVSTAR GPS system that the whole world uses - the Glonnas system has not been fully deployed to date - although more than 25 years have passed since the system was created (launch of the first GLONNAS satellites) ...
        At that time, when the authorities of the Russian Federation clearly saved on the creation of electronic maps and positioning systems, third-rate and little-needed space projects were clearly carried out - such as a solar sail and space tourists riding !!!
  11. Aeneas
    Aeneas 19 September 2013 08: 47 New
    12
    if it's honest, I still don't understand what the shame is? The practice of selling production licenses has not been for the first year, because the author himself admits that most of the Polish equipment is Soviet licenses. The Poles bought a license from the Finns for an armored personnel carrier (Patria - Wolverine), an ACS Crab in parts from the British, Turks, Khfrans, etc. But the author significantly decided that Dozor B was sold "for a penny", because the terms of the contract were not disclosed! .. Personally, I would supplement this opus with the assumption that the license was sold for food, because there is a famine in Ukraine!
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 19 September 2013 09: 50 New
      +7
      Quote: Aeneas
      if honestly, I still do not understand what a shame?

      To be honest, the title of the article is delusional. Already tired of clinging to the little things.
      Slav brothers, surround yourself. Stop looking for a mote in your brother’s eye.
      Let's get better together. At least in this forum.
      Since the superior cannot do the same ...
  12. morpex
    morpex 19 September 2013 08: 53 New
    +3
    On the one hand, Ukrainian designers selling licenses for their offspring abroad can understand: if new weapons and equipment are not needed by the army and other security forces, why not sell the license for its production? Let others let out, if they don’t value our own.
    And what about the geyropa? They did it, they sold it. Survive as it should. Russia, after all, also sells technology and licenses. Normal practice.
  13. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 19 September 2013 09: 02 New
    +3
    Sadly, brains and labor are squandered in the interests of competitors. But these are lost jobs for citizens, income to the state. Apparently, the Poles are more competent in trading.
  14. Kowalsky
    Kowalsky 19 September 2013 10: 21 New
    +6
    The author presents his assumptions with such confidence as the truth that one might think that he either works for the Polish military-industrial complex, or is an agent of all European intelligence services at once. And he knew the amount of the contract and laid out an "analysis" of the situation in Ukrainian-Polish cooperation in five minutes. Yes, there is no money for the purchase of the Patrol, but the option of selling a license to a friendly country is not a crime at all. Poland is a much more reliable and trusted partner for Ukraine than, for example, China is for Russia. Those over there have no idea what the word "license" means.
    1. Djozz
      Djozz 19 September 2013 11: 09 New
      -2
      Well, at least we do not bite like dogs, with China, like you with Poland!
    2. Deniska
      Deniska 19 September 2013 11: 43 New
      +1
      "Poland is a much more reliable and trusted partner for Ukraine ..." This is more than enough for you))) I'm glad for your sense of trust.
    3. vlad_pr
      vlad_pr 19 September 2013 12: 37 New
      +1
      In some part I agree with you. Suffice it to recall the recent years of the existence of the Russian military-industrial complex, however, even now the situation is much better, but not so much. Indeed, in order to survive, licenses (and are now being sold) and the latest technology were sold and joint ventures were organized with the transfer of technology, etc., etc., just to somehow survive and not die, since their state had very different priorities. The Ukrainian state has a similar situation. And the screams "where, why, ..." are not constructive. Everyone survives as best they can, and dies alone ...
      Sincerely.
  15. Djozz
    Djozz 19 September 2013 10: 30 New
    -1
    They’ll gouge and throw, this is a big European politician! I sympathize, but do not support, Little Russia itself got involved in D.E.R.M.O. To each his own!
  16. mithridate
    mithridate 19 September 2013 10: 52 New
    +1
    it’s better to trade licenses than to eliminate this industry altogether and abandon development
  17. Cristall
    Cristall 19 September 2013 11: 05 New
    +4
    how to shape public opinion in the right direction? It is necessary in every way through a large flow of news to teach information so that the little picture to the layman the whole picture seemed in the right direction. Bit by bit it will be from puzzles, but the layman will also believe that he himself guessed that everything was as it should.
    It would seem an elementary story of forming opinions with the help of the media, escalating the situation
    But almost everything is being done on it.
    Yes write down the names of news about Ukraine. And the conclusions at the end of them (except for the pathetic news is really about technology) -and conduct an easy analysis.
    Similarly, you can display the desired opinion on any subject.
  18. nikcris
    nikcris 19 September 2013 11: 22 New
    +2
    belay
    And what is so much noise because of the police armored car?
    Horror !!! Everything is lost!!! There is nothing to disperse the demonstrations - all the Poles cleaned up for nothing and so on and so forth lol
    1. vlad_pr
      vlad_pr 19 September 2013 12: 47 New
      +1
      Excellent comment, reminds "Chief, everything is gone, the plaster is being removed, the client is leaving ...". In general, W. Shakespeare's comedy "Much Ado About Nothing"
      Sincerely.
  19. Kowalsky
    Kowalsky 19 September 2013 12: 13 New
    -1
    Quote: Djozz
    Well, at least we do not bite like dogs, with China, like you with Poland!


    Give an example of "bickering". What nonsense. Ask the same Poles about their attitude towards Russia and Ukraine. I think you know the answer yourself.
    1. Basileus
      Basileus 19 September 2013 12: 45 New
      +2
      But do they love Russia?) The Poles, it seems to me, constantly blaze when they recall the history of relations with their neighbors.
  20. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 19 September 2013 12: 19 New
    0
    Why did you sell the license to the Poles? Hit makes it difficult to organize the production of armored vehicles at home and export them (if your army is not able to buy them). Probably in Ukraine military marketing is not well established. Giving your new technology to sworn Pole friends is not the best way out of this situation.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 19 September 2013 13: 36 New
      +2
      Quote: Ivanovich47
      What prevents to organize the production of armored vehicles at home and export them

      But what is in the way? what
      What prevents the production and export of An-148 in Ukraine?
      Or An-70? Or to finish off (there will be at least one large ship in the Navy) in Nikolaev a missile cruiser?
      There can be many economic and political reasons.
      But the main thing, probably, is that in a couple of decades of independence, deindustrialization actually took place and the state of industry does not allow the full production cycle of high-quality weapons.
      Only a complete ignoramus can imagine that without sufficient capital investments, Ukrainian enterprises will be able to successfully compete in the high-tech products market.
      Their destiny is in 90% of cases to "shamanize" the old Soviet technology, sometimes passing it off (for the sake of internal propaganda, they say, not everything is lost, "it has not died yet") as new samples. lol
      And to sell it cheaply, not without the help and permission of the United States, of course, to the "third world countries" dependent on the West: Iraq, Thailand, etc.
      That is, the self-serving and irresponsible policies of the Ukrainian leadership, aimed at breaking the natural integration ties with Russia, interfere.
  21. knn54
    knn54 19 September 2013 12: 41 New
    +5
    -But the Poles won! This incident made Ukrainian tank builders alert.
    The scandal with armored personnel carriers played its role. Marriage could well be. But the refusal of the contract for the entire batch without sea trials and firing. This decision is EXCLUSIVELY political since 2010. more than 120 delivered to Thailand
    BTR and deliveries continue. Ukraine is simply being squeezed out of the global arms market. Hint - sell grain, ore and fertilizers, i.e. raw materials. Advise - do not meddle in a serious high-tech business. Let's join the EU - military-industrial complex, and the army will buy NATO second-hand.
    or Moscow with the T90S tank.
    “Thank you” to Commander-in-Chief Alexander Postnikov, who publicly declared the T-90 an “obsolete model.”
    -if new weapons and equipment are not needed by their own army and other security forces, why not sell the license for its production? Let others let out, if they don’t value our own.
    Everything repeats: during the ON and the Crown, the Vishnevetsky, Pototsky sold us. Now Kolomoisky ...
    PS The problem with Ukrainian armored personnel carriers arose on the day with the appointment of a new US ambassador to Ukraine!
  22. KononAV
    KononAV 19 September 2013 13: 46 New
    0
    Not new. EVEN SORRY
  23. PureGUN
    PureGUN 19 September 2013 14: 46 New
    -3
    Judging by the fact that Ukrainian developers completely refuse to give the amount of the contract, we are talking about very little money. Indeed, in such a situation would Polish manufacturers lay out serious amounts?

    And soon everything will be taken away from them for free. Onet in NATE practically.
  24. Lyapis
    Lyapis 19 September 2013 15: 16 New
    +1
    If I'm not mistaken, these cars took part in the 2010 Victory Parade.

    Does anyone know the details of their fate in the army of the Russian Federation? (Are they still being purchased, their quantity, etc.)
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 19 September 2013 16: 28 New
      +1
      - This year, at the May 9 parade, I saw such people in Kaliningrad.
  25. Algor73
    Algor73 19 September 2013 15: 37 New
    +5
    I don’t understand something of a shame? The author is really a shame for such a name. But fellow Slavs, let's analyze a little. Many people complain that with Europe you will abandon the production of tanks, armored personnel carriers, aircraft, and other equipment. And with whom should Ukraine cooperate then? With Russia? But so far, Ukraine cannot find a common language on the production of aircraft with Russia (An-70), tanks and armored personnel carriers are direct competitors to the Russian (this is why there are problems with Azerbaijan, Iraq, Kazakhstan), it is doubtful that Russia will not interfere with Ukraine in promoting this product in the world market. There will be peace between our countries on one condition - we will be, as before, one country. And as long as it is not, these all kinds of "wars", vilifications, etc. will constantly arise. But how can we make it so that we are, as before, one country? There are many options, but the most reliable is the gradual integration of the economies, so that Ukraine would feel that it has nowhere to go without Russia. After all, now Russia is doing everything to make Ukraine look for new markets for its goods. She will find them. But it will be too late for our peoples. No wonder L.D. Kuchma (Ukraine's second president) recently announced that Russia itself is pushing Ukraine into the EU. You can shout a lot that Ukraine is like that, Ukraine is cutting. And what is Ukraine like? Look at our relationship from the outside. Think about it, analyze the latest events.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 19 September 2013 15: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: Algor73
      And with whom, then, should Ukraine cooperate? With Russia? But so far, Ukraine cannot find a common language for the production of aircraft with Russia (An-70),

      Dear, according to AN 70, Russia has fulfilled all its obligations, but Ukrainian brothers, what have they done? wink So in the topic about AN 70 ala Russia is not to blame for everything AT ALL !!!!!!!!!
      1. Algor73
        Algor73 19 September 2013 17: 05 New
        0
        What did the Ukrainian brothers do? I'm just not up to date. According to all media outlets (the majority of Ukrainian, true), the reason for the delay is Russia’s decision to launch the production of IL-476, a competitor to An-70
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 20 September 2013 07: 10 New
          0
          Quote: Algor73
          What did the Ukrainian brothers do? I'm just not up to date.

          Nevertheless, write wink
          Quote: Algor73
          According to all media outlets (the majority of Ukrainian, true), the reason for the delay is Russia’s decision to launch the production of IL-476, a competitor to An-70

          Russia swelled a bunch of grandmas in AN 70, and Ukraine remained at the level of promises. How many of ours were hollowed, so Ukraine did not scratch. Therefore, our people naturally scored it. And for one, ask where the money allocated by Russia for the project went.
          As regards the Ukrainian media, they are talking about the benefits with the EU, despite the fact that the numbers say the opposite.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. bask
        bask 19 September 2013 17: 30 New
        +3
        Well, they want to release the armored car's cheeks .. "Watch" ", let them release their business. What's the problem?
        Help, who knows what kind of apparatus? Judging by the flag of the BTR in Russia.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. sergeymend
          sergeymend 19 September 2013 18: 44 New
          0
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandur_II вроде он
          1. bask
            bask 19 September 2013 19: 52 New
            0
            Quote: sergeymend
            rg / wiki / Pandur_II in

            Pandur 2, MTO in the nose.
        3. ICT
          ICT 19 September 2013 20: 43 New
          +1
          if it is. then Slovenia (flag colors match)
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 20 September 2013 07: 12 New
            0
            Quote: TIT
            if it is. then Slovenia (flag colors match)

            There is another car.
        4. Lone gunman
          Lone gunman 20 September 2013 00: 59 New
          0
          Most likely- Austrian Pandur 2 8x8 ...
          1. ICT
            ICT 20 September 2013 17: 29 New
            0
            Quote: Lone gunman
            Most likely- Austrian Pandur 2 8x8 ..


            yes it is (KRAPAN MADE ON ITS BASIS), and the flag there
            Quote: bask
            Judging by the flag of the BTR in Russia.
            some with greens and a coat of arms
      4. Oleg Kharkov
        Oleg Kharkov 19 September 2013 22: 54 New
        0
        Maybe delaying state tests? The acceptance of the aircraft by the Russian side was postponed to the next year. We made a really good plane and we can't start production - that's a shame! But "Dozor" is an attempt to break through to the NATO sales markets through Poland.
  26. sergeymend
    sergeymend 19 September 2013 18: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
    This watch "100 years at lunchtime" is a rather old development, of the late 90s;

    mi-8 was developed in the late 50s - early 60s and, modernized, is quite modern, so the "patrol" is a young
  27. bask
    bask 19 September 2013 20: 31 New
    0
    Several, exotic armored vehicles 4 / 4.
    1. ICT
      ICT 19 September 2013 20: 46 New
      0
      Quote: bask
      Several, exotic armored vehicles 4 / 4.

      a lot of them
  28. Maverick78
    Maverick78 19 September 2013 21: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Quote: Algor73
    And with whom, then, should Ukraine cooperate? With Russia? But so far, Ukraine cannot find a common language for the production of aircraft with Russia (An-70),

    Dear, according to AN 70, Russia has fulfilled all its obligations, but Ukrainian brothers, what have they done? wink So in the topic about AN 70 ala Russia is not to blame for everything AT ALL !!!!!!!!!

    You, of course, forgive me for the mistrust, but did you PERSONALLY check the fulfillment by Russia of its obligations to release the An-70? I just saw and read interviews with some "officials" from the Russian side a couple of times over the years that there was a cataclysia with this plane (who do not remember exactly, a lot of time has passed) So, it said about POLITICAL issues that interfere with successful project implementation.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 20 September 2013 07: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Maverick78
      Of course, you will forgive me for mistrust, but did you PERSONALLY check the fulfillment by Russia of its obligations to produce the An-70?

      According to AN 70, everything was already chewed, including on the site, what and how. With regard to politics, the project was originally financed by Russia, but to no avail. Ukraine went its own way at the level of promises
  29. Slobozhanin
    Slobozhanin 20 September 2013 02: 20 New
    +2
    If the Poles will successfully sell Dozors, this is also an advertisement of the Ukrainian school of armored vehicles + they will beat the money for the creation and refinement of the machine, you look and there is enough money to develop something else.