Military Review

Iraq refuses to accept defective Ukrainian armored personnel carriers

52
The SE PACIFICA ship loaded with Ukrainian armored personnel carriers has been in the Persian Gulf for three months due to Iraq’s unwillingness to accept this batch of vehicles, sources at the shipowner White Whale Shipping report.


Iraq refuses to accept defective Ukrainian armored personnel carriers


The 42 BTR-4, which arrived by ship in Umm Qasr in the spring, Baghdad considered defective, refusing to unload them ashore. The vessel is now in neutral waters (at approximately equal distance from Kuwait, Iran and Iraq), awaiting resolution of the situation. The shipowner notes that exporters - Ukrspetsexport, Ukroboronservis and Progress - do not pay for downtime. The owners of the vessel consider as an option for getting out of the situation the unloading of combat vehicles in the port of a third country, followed by a petition to the court to arrest the vehicle.

According to sources portal Dumska.net, these events contributed to the dismissal of the CEO of Ukrspetseksport Dmitry Peregudov in early July. The duties of the head of this company are now performed by Alexander Kovalenko. According to some reports, he is now in Iraq, along with officials from the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff, trying to resolve the conflict. Consideration is being given to sending specialists from the Malyshev plant to the Middle East to eliminate defects on the spot and to give buyers a significant discount.

These combat vehicles were delivered to Iraq as part of the largest supply contract weapons в stories independent Ukraine on $ 556,5 million (420 units BTR-4E and AN-32 aircraft), concluded in 2009 year. The Iraqi side has repeatedly accused of delaying supplies, but it was possible to resolve the previously arisen conflict situations.

Recall that in February 2013, a representative of the Commission on Security and Defense of the Iraqi Parliament, Shivan Mohammed Taha, accused Ukraine of supplying poor-quality BTR-4 to the Iraqi army and disrupting deliveries under this contract. "An investigation into the supply of arms to Ukraine by Iraq revealed corruption in part of the third contract concerning the sale of 420 armored personnel carriers, of which only about one hundred vehicles have been delivered at present, despite the fact that several years have passed since the contract was ratified," he said. According to the deputy, in the course of the investigation it was established that all the "very old, rusty bodies supplied by the APCs were installed, the vehicles were unsuitable for use."
Originator:
http://www.military-informant.com/
52 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. maxvet
    maxvet 10 August 2013 08: 31 New
    +9
    It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?
    1. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka 10 August 2013 09: 18 New
      +6
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

      This is a bazaar, that is, trade - East. Big money does all sorts of miracles in the East.
    2. esaul
      esaul 10 August 2013 09: 20 New
      14
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?


      Greetings, Maxim. It is possible that marriage exists, but do Ukrainian production workers (and especially politicians!) Recognize this publicly? But, there is a different point of view. On one of the portals there was infa under the heading "Ukraine is being squeezed out of the arms market." And it said that Iraq’s claims to the quality of Ukrainian technology arose from a specific order from Washington. That is, Ukraine is pointed out to its place in its future integration into the EU - "Wait, bang, rubayte salo and ne Rypaytes!"
      And for the trip of Ukrainian specialists in order to grease the sitouvine with lard - they went to the wrong country with lard - not a ride laughing
      1. roial
        roial 10 August 2013 09: 33 New
        +4
        Dear HOW, you can find cracks in the hulls without unloading the equipment from the hold ????
        Have you ever been in the hold of a truck ???
        And where does Washington and the EU ????
        And especially the desire of Ukraine in the EU ???
        1. Coward
          Coward 10 August 2013 10: 20 New
          11
          Dear HOW, you can find cracks in the hulls without unloading the equipment from the hold ????

          Very simple. If it is not ro-ro, then unload by crane. This means that dockermans descend into the hold for trimming. If cargo damage is detected, the operation stops. A tallyman is called and introduced to the crew, usually as a start-up, and an act is drawn up that the cargo is damaged, otherwise the damage will be recorded on dockers. Given that this is not the first delivery, it could very well have been a "show attention" command.
          1. roial
            roial 10 August 2013 10: 34 New
            +3
            What then should be cracks?
            And why did the Iraqis not notice them at the preliminary acceptance ??
        2. Genry
          Genry 10 August 2013 12: 11 New
          +4
          Quote: roial
          Dear HOW, you can find cracks in the hulls without unloading the equipment from the hold ????
          Have you ever been in the hold of a truck ???
          And where does Washington and the EU ????
          And especially the desire of Ukraine in the EU ???


          This is not the first batch of delivered armored personnel carriers.
          What would you do if you began to drive the marriage in batches.

          Correct: abandoned the subsequent ones.

          A couple of years ago there was already a loud “fly-in” with 30-mm guns.
        3. seller trucks
          seller trucks 10 August 2013 12: 12 New
          +1
          have you been? "freight" - what kind of animal is this, new Ukrainian know-how? cargo ship, transport, container ship, barge, etc.
        4. old man54
          old man54 10 August 2013 19: 23 New
          +5
          Quote: roial
          Have you ever been in the hold of a truck ???

          You know, I’ve been and washed them and earned them a docker, and I received cargo there, and much more.
          Quote: roial
          Dear HOW, you can find cracks in the hulls without unloading the equipment from the hold ????

          although I don’t have a question for you, I'm sorry, since you yourself are not comfortable, you can immediately see that the merchant ship was only seen in the picture, I inform you that you can go down into the hold not only after opening its covers, but there are special hatches on the main deck through which down the inner ramp down into the hold. Because cargo car (BTR), then there is definitely a change of space for moving in the hold between them, which means that inspection there is possible. As a rule, the cargo is especially special, expensive (the military I think is no exception), the receiving party can carry out its acceptance and inspection before unloading, and take appropriate measures if it detects a quality mismatch or other damage! hi
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 10 August 2013 20: 42 New
            +1
            And how is the technique in the holds fastened? Like on railway platforms, on braces? If so, then there must be passages to control them.
        5. svp67
          svp67 11 August 2013 09: 37 New
          0
          Quote: roial
          Dear HOW, you can find cracks in the hulls without unloading the equipment from the hold ????
          Visually - that is, with the eyes. This may be at the joints of the armor plates, but this indicates a violation of the welding technology, of poor quality, or rather of non-conditioned armor (steel of the wrong grade was used) and the worst is a calculation error ...
        6. chunga-changa
          chunga-changa 11 August 2013 10: 32 New
          0
          A manual ultrasonic flaw detector allows you to detect hidden cracks in the metal, the size of a little more than two packs of cigarettes.
      2. My doctor
        My doctor 10 August 2013 09: 45 New
        -40
        Only in Russian technology there is no marriage. I apologize, but marriage is a Russian brand (unfortunately there is experience)
        1. roial
          roial 10 August 2013 10: 20 New
          +4
          And the Indian seal? Gorshkov ?? etc. Do not smack nonsense marriage has always been with everyone where more where less.
          1. Denis
            Denis 10 August 2013 14: 08 New
            +2
            Quote: roial
            marriage has always been with everyone where more where less
            Then Chinas ahead. Faced with their auto-buzzing! About radio without me it is said. Why would their weapons be good?
            But the towels, underwear, a thermos and sneakers were excellent. It is true for a long time, before their disaster
            1. sergeschern
              sergeschern 11 August 2013 01: 22 New
              +1
              A Chinese lanterns? Were better than most of the current "brand"
        2. esaul
          esaul 10 August 2013 10: 46 New
          11
          Quote: MyVrach
          Only in Russian technology there is no marriage. I apologize, but marriage is a Russian brand (unfortunately there is experience)

          Dmitriy hi
          In vain you are so ... The Chinese have long been taken the palm. And civilized Europe, along with the states, is sinning by such deeds. Do not forget that 90% of supposedly European consumer goods is made by Chinese guest workers or by the Chinese themselves in China. It would not hurt to recall the problems with the American F-35, which is still being worked out and are going to close the program as a result. Or talk about the comparative characteristics of C-300 and the Patriots. If you want, you can get a lot from the Internet. Well, as one of the examples about the quality of Russian technology, I propose to read this information about the claims of the Indians to Russian technology.
          ---------- Today, the MiG-21 is the most massive post-war fighter. Since 1959, more than 11 thousand original and modified copies of the aircraft have been built. It was in service with 45 countries of the world and for the low cost of maintenance and repair received the nickname "People's Fighter". In the 1980 years, India acquired a license to produce the MiG-21 and reduced the cost of producing one aircraft to 30 million rupees.

          Chief Air Marshal P.V. Naik, the former Indian Air Force commander, zealously protects the car from attacks: "I flew over 2 thousand hours on various modifications of the MiG-21, from the very first MiG-21-FL and MiG-21 PFM to the MiG-21-93" Bison " Marshall calls the aircraft the best in its class and considers offensive nicknames inappropriate.
          The aging Air Force fleet has forced India to look for cheaper parts from suppliers such as Israel and Ukraine. Russian military officials have already warned their Indian counterparts that the cost of maintenance will not bring them to good, reports Tanedzha.
          If India continues to buy parts outside of Russia, the growing number of accidents should not surprise her, said Russian Ambassador to New Delhi Alexander Kadakin.
          Completely:
          http://www.inopressa.ru/article/09Aug2013/nytimes/india.html

          The problem is as old as the world. Due to illiterate operation and other NOT, it is easier and more profitable for the guilty party to expose a supplier.
          Somewhere, the substantiation of our specialists regarding India’s claims to our Tornadoes and guided projectiles was lost. I won’t search, but it was. The reasons are the same - inadequate fulfillment of the terms of the contract or violation of the operating and storage standards. hi
          1. alone
            alone 10 August 2013 10: 50 New
            +3
            MiG-21 is not an example for this problem. In the same India, half of MiG-21 aircraft crashed due to the fault of the Indian Air Force pilots. The pilot is worse than a saboteur.
            1. esaul
              esaul 10 August 2013 11: 11 New
              +2
              Quote: lonely
              twink-xnumx is not an example for this problem

              Greetings Omar hi
              Why not an example? In the link I offer, it is directly indicated - The claims of the Indians were EXACTLY for the quality of the MIGs, and not as an acknowledgment of the low qualification of the pilots.
              Quote: lonely
              a poor pilot is worse than a saboteur.

              Golden words!
        3. m262
          m262 11 August 2013 01: 26 New
          +3
          It’s unlikely that Ukrainian engineers will not do guano, there are examples, most likely, some of the officials decided to make their own "gesheft", and as for the concept of marriage, there is the expression "Foundry without marriage, there is a marriage for everyone, even Mitsubishi, in this case, most likely something was replaced there at the loading stage !!!
          And apparently not for the first time, in Ukraine there is an expression "The wrong country was called Honduras !!!"
      3. maxvet
        maxvet 10 August 2013 09: 48 New
        +4
        Hello Esaul, I wonder whose team is on the ship? And if the owner claims that downtime is not paid, then how does this affect the team because they hang out there for three months?
        1. esaul
          esaul 10 August 2013 10: 50 New
          +3
          Quote: maxvet
          Hello Yesaul!

          Good afternoon, Maxim.
          Quote: maxvet
          I wonder whose crew on the ship?
          There is no such explanation in infe, as far as I remember.
          Quote: maxvet
          if the owner claims that the downtime is not paid, then how does this affect the team because for three months they hang out there?

          Most likely, the losses will be incurred on the Ukrainian side in addition to the markdown of the delivered “goods”. In my opinion, the political component is more present here - Ukraine is commanded - "Sit!" hi
        2. experienced
          experienced 10 August 2013 10: 53 New
          +2
          Quote: maxvet
          I wonder whose crew on the ship?

          Ukrainians 15 people.
          Quote: maxvet
          And if the owner claims that downtime is not paid, then how does this reflect on the team because they hang out there for three months?

          The owner himself leases the vessel, the losses are already about a million dollars, he will sue, he will return the money, he will pay the crew. hi
        3. treskoed
          treskoed 10 August 2013 11: 06 New
          -2
          Quote: maxvet
          Hello Esaul, I wonder whose team is on the ship? And if the owner claims that downtime is not paid, then how does this affect the team because they hang out there for three months?

          Or maybe Iraqi? Or bribed by Iraq? We thoroughly studied the technique and revealed all the flaws!
    3. roial
      roial 10 August 2013 09: 28 New
      +1
      Common duck. Maybe enough to distribute it ???
      The only source of information is Odessa Internet portal with its "sources".
      On Kovalenko’s shield, only assumptions, he looked at the base of entry - exit, he did not leave the borders of Ukraine.
      1. Akim
        Akim 10 August 2013 09: 36 New
        12
        Quote: roial
        Common duck

        I would not say that the duck .SE PACIFICA really has been hanging out there for three months. And apparently coming back (with or without cargo unknown). That is the reason for the refusal to accept - it is far-fetched by the Iraqis themselves, to be seen by order of the White House.
        http://maritime-connector.com/ship/SE-PACIFICA-9431460/
        1. Very old
          Very old 10 August 2013 09: 59 New
          +5
          Otherwise, how to "vparit" B / Ear stuff in a poor country, but for good money, so that thanks and shoved
          1. Very old
            Very old 10 August 2013 10: 43 New
            -1
            But this is Uncle Sam ... So the "minus sign" put your own "-" yourself Learn to read
        2. roial
          roial 10 August 2013 10: 25 New
          +1
          Quote: Akim
          That is the reason for the refusal to accept - it is far-fetched by the Iraqis themselves, to be seen by order of the White House.


          In general, is there a refusal ???
          We know about these armored personnel carriers only from the pages of the Odessa portal, so far there is no official information from either Ukraine or Iraq.
          1. Akim
            Akim 10 August 2013 10: 36 New
            +5
            Quote: roial
            We know about these armored personnel carriers only from the pages of the Odessa portal,

            I suggest learning how to monitor
            http://podrobnosti.ua/podrobnosti/2013/08/02/921444.html
            1. roial
              roial 10 August 2013 10: 48 New
              -2
              These articles are written on the same day, who licked someone, you know ???
              1. Akim
                Akim 10 August 2013 10: 56 New
                +8
                Quote: roial
                These articles are written in one day.

                This is the site of a nationwide television company. You can still find materials in English. Or do you not believe everyone? See a map of the Pacific.
                1. roial
                  roial 10 August 2013 11: 08 New
                  +1
                  Well, the ship is standing. A OFFICIAL infa about the refusal is ???
                  In winter, it was an official declaration of marriage.
                  1. experienced
                    experienced 10 August 2013 11: 13 New
                    +6
                    Quote: roial
                    Well, the ship is standing. A OFFICIAL infa about the refusal is ??? In winter it was an official statement on the discovery of marriage.

                    It can be seen while Iraq is trying to "quietly" refuse. Why official statements when armored personnel carriers have not yet arrived in the country? (East is a delicate matter). It is strange that Ukrspetsexport, Ukroboronservis and the Progress company are silent, they would have to beat all the bells now, but apparently they also don’t want to go to court, otherwise there’s not enough " IMHO
              2. experienced
                experienced 10 August 2013 10: 59 New
                +3
                Quote: roial
                These articles are written on the same day, who licked someone, you know ???

                I think that the tenant of the vessel realized that he would have to sue and started an information company in the media. hi
    4. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 10 August 2013 09: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: maxvet
      And if the marriage is to what specifically claim?

      Well, the answer as a whole is, I’m thinking how else to establish a marriage without hodovka directly on the ship. They looked at the hull and there belay
      According to the deputy, in the course of the investigation it was established that all the armored personnel carriers delivered were “very old, corps rusty, cars unsuitable for use”. From the article hi
      1. roial
        roial 10 August 2013 10: 26 New
        +1
        First in the primary source of data on
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        BTR "very old, rusty housings, machines unusable"
        No, this addition appeared in publications on Russian sites.
        Read the source.
        1. experienced
          experienced 10 August 2013 10: 28 New
          0
          Quote: roial
          No, this addition appeared in publications on Russian sites. Read the source.

          I read earlier the news there sounded "rust, cracks in the body" hi
          In general, of course, it is strange that only Iraq says about marriage, because:
          The State Export Control Service of Ukraine said on Tuesday that last year the country sold 99 T-72 tanks to Ethiopia, as well as ten such tanks to Sudan.

          Among the major buyers of Ukrainian armored vehicles, in particular, also Thailand, which in 2012 bought 62 BTR-3E1 armored personnel carriers, Iraq, which acquired 48 BTR-4s of several modifications and 11 units of different BTR-80 modifications.

          Azerbaijan bought 14 BTS-5B, Bulgaria - ten BTR-60PB and nine BTR-70, UNIAN reports with reference to RIA Novosti.
          1. roial
            roial 10 August 2013 10: 42 New
            -3
            http://dumskaya.net/news/sudno-odesskoj-kompanii-s-btrami-dlya-armii-irak-028455

            / # comment870553

            Here is the source of data on the reasons for the refusal there is not there, and the news that you read is already overgrown with rumors and speculation.
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 August 2013 11: 17 New
              +6
              Dear, calm down. The contract is dead, and it will be officially announced soon. Ukraine is incapable of battling with the Americans in the military-technical sphere. Especially in Iraq. Especially with such prices.

              By the way, a big hello to your “Andrew BT”, who traditionally accused Russia of Ukrainian failures.
    5. experienced
      experienced 10 August 2013 09: 37 New
      13
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

      There is politics here, but it seems to me that it could not do without a marriage, no one will refuse high-quality armored personnel carriers and if they are high-quality it is easy to establish using an independent examination. I heard there and the supply contract, some "muddy" and the bulk of the profits is the intermediary.
      However, hearing about anything that happened in Ukraine, I am not surprised at anything:
      Employees of the railway of Ukraine are trying to understand why the train traveling along the Lviv-Zaporozhye route arrived in Dnepropetrovsk instead of the destination.

      At about 8.45 am on August 7, the train stopped in Verkhnedneprovsk, Dnipropetrovsk Region, and all passengers were asked to leave the cars. However, after 20 minutes, the passengers were offered to return to the cars and follow to Dnepropetrovsk, although the train was to follow in Krivoy Rog and further to Zaporozhye, writes the Dnepropetrovsk edition of Vgorod.

      Those who did not wish to change their route were not offered any compensation.

      Meanwhile, according to eyewitnesses, “passengers were told that the dispatcher got the wrong staff there. ” In the Dnieper Railway, this information was confirmed, emphasizing that at the station Pyatikhatki the train was sent in the wrong direction.
      1. Tersky
        Tersky 10 August 2013 09: 54 New
        +5
        Quote: seasoned
        There is politics here, but as it seems to me it could not have done without marriage,

        Lesha, hi! Or politics could not do without marriage .. laughing
        1. experienced
          experienced 10 August 2013 09: 59 New
          +4
          Quote: Tersky
          Or without marriage in politics could not do ..

          Hello Victor hi Well, or so, was there some kind of “dumb” contract there and its Americans were imposing Iraq ... Iraq got used to Soviet military equipment and could thus try to push the Ukrainian (Soviet) one so that the Russian one would not be delivered? I do not know hi
          But too often lately the news has flashed about the desire of Iraqi officials to conclude an arms supply agreement with Russia, and here, as in the classics, "it’s not casual for this zhzhzhzhzhzhzhzhzhzhzh." IMHO
      2. Very old
        Very old 10 August 2013 10: 08 New
        +2
        Not in that steppe ... And yet, without a big Sam, the Iraqis are not free to make serious decisions, They put pressure on Iraq, they put pressure on Ukraine, but they will be left alone. It seems that you are right - the situation is darkness, Egyptian darkness
    6. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 10 August 2013 11: 05 New
      +5
      Quote: maxvet
      Is it really interesting marriage or politics?

      In the original article, where this material comes from, it says:
      "... 42“ boxes ”that SE PACIFICA (Singapore flag, owner - White Whale Shipping) delivered to Umm Qasr this spring were found to be defective. With cracks in the case... "
      (http://dumskaya.net/news/sudno-odesskoj-kompanii-s-btrami-dlya-armii-irak-028455
      /
      )
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 10 August 2013 23: 51 New
        +1
        "...
        Ukrainian APCs “stuck” in the middle of the Persian Gulf can get to Indians

        The owner of the vessel SE PACIFICA with 42 Ukrainian armored personnel carriers for the Iraqi army on board, which official Baghdad does not want to accept, is preparing to unload military cargo at a port in a third country.
        This was stated to reporters by the Odessa representative of the shipowning company Alexander Varvarenko. According to him, armored vehicles will be arrested on the shore and, if Ukraine does not pay for downtime, they will be sold by court order.
        Varvarenko added that now the shipowner is negotiating with India, which, most likely, will become the very “third country" .................

        However, this is another question - will Delhi want to accept Ukrainian armored personnel carriers. ....

        Here's what Dumskaya was told by a former employee of one of the research and testing organizations subordinate to the General Staff of the Armed Forces, who personally was involved in testing the very BTR-4E supplied to Iraq:

        “I was an army receiver. Do not confuse with a factory receiver. I tested this piece of iron in conditions that may occur during operation. Index “E” means that the products are exported and not intended for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. For the Armed Forces of Ukraine, another version of this product is provided - BTR-4M. However, it still exists only in the drawings. Of the seven options (projects) - not one was approved.

        But back to the tests. Representatives of the Kharkov plant as they recognized my "mandatory program", so immediately twisted. Calls to Kiev began, after which some test cycles were simply removed.

        Yes, I forgot to say. On the BTR-4 there is generally no tactical and technical task (TTZ - regulatory and technical documents in the development and production system for military equipment that establish a set of requirements for the content, scope and timing of research or development work, - Ed.) . In other words, the country did not order such an APC. This is a personal initiative of comrades from Ukroboronprom, Ukrspetseksprot and the breeders themselves. Without TTZ and the corresponding resolution of the relevant committee (on defense) of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, this is a self-made gun.

        The second one. During the 20 days of the “lightweight” tests initiated by the plant, we identified 35 deficiencies in the machine’s body, 39 shortcomings in the combat module, five shortcomings in the power plant ...

        One such drawback in Soviet times would mean sending equipment for revision. And if there are two or more, then this is a blockage. Full. In short, the car is not just r ... but r ... but in a cube! I finally advised the guys from the factory to often go to the Internet or watch Al-Jazeera so as not to miss the moment when their cars would blaze en masse on the battlefields. And then he learned that all the armored personnel carriers bought by Iraq are constantly in storage, under canopies. The army categorically refuses to ride them. That’s all love. ”

        Note that Ukrspetsexport did not confirm, but did not refute, Duma’s information about the unwillingness of the Iraqi side to accept armored personnel carriers ....... "

        http://dumskaya.net/news/zastryavshie-posredi-persidskogo-zaliva-ukrainsk-028622

        /
        1. Zerstorer
          Zerstorer 11 August 2013 10: 28 New
          0
          Quote: Bad_gr
          But back to the tests. Representatives of the Kharkov plant as they recognized my "mandatory program", so immediately twisted.

          In the modern world, it is very common. Managers want as cheaper, and engineers as right from a technical point of view. Here, as I understand it, there was a phenomenon of collective irresponsibility, when no one is responsible for anything. There was no person in charge of the project.


          Quote: Bad_gr
          Without TTZ and the corresponding resolution of the relevant committee (on defense) of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, this is a self-made gun.

          Well, from these comrades you can’t expect normal TK. Or this "TK" then corresponded to 80%. And the fact that they did "self-made" so well done they did not sit idly by.

          Quote: Bad_gr
          The second one. During the 20 days of the “lightweight” tests initiated by the plant, we identified 35 deficiencies in the machine’s body, 39 shortcomings in the combat module, five shortcomings in the power plant ...

          The comments are also different ...
          Quote: Bad_gr
          One such drawback in Soviet times would mean sending equipment for revision.

          Not true. There were more disadvantages, especially when combined factory and acceptance tests. Our troops can operate equipment not accepted for service (MiG-19 napimer). Now this, of course, will not happen, but even so ... To be honest, we are now in the initial stage of the formation of the defense industry, since many of the relations of enterprises have been destroyed - there is no cooperation. And complex complexes imply the need for broad cooperation. So we were in a situation worse than the USSR in the early 30s.
    7. GSH-18
      GSH-18 10 August 2013 11: 07 New
      +3
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

      From the article: "According to the deputy, during the investigation it was established that all the BTR delivered" are very old, the bodies are rusty, the cars are unusable. "
      1. roial
        roial 10 August 2013 11: 10 New
        +1
        From whose article then ??
        See the source http://dumskaya.net/news/sudno-odesskoj-kompanii-s-btrami-dlya-armii-irak-028455
    8. APASUS
      APASUS 10 August 2013 11: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

      As a rule, countries are engaged in small extortion and bring down the price of equipment, marriage is one of the common reasons for this. But this is more likely to relate to those countries where the equipment is expensive. And another feature. Ukraine did not win the tender for the supply of equipment, but simply received thanks from the USA in the form of a supply contract, this is where the stumbling block is.
      Most likely the United States decided to punish Ukraine for concessions to Russia or for what else ..........?
    9. Airman
      Airman 10 August 2013 20: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: maxvet
      It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

      Not so much marriage as delivery times, so we decided to drastically reduce the cost of “goods”.
  2. Denis
    Denis 10 August 2013 08: 32 New
    +3
    Maybe not very defective, the owners do not allow more?
    We decided that shoe boxes are more suitable for them.
  3. domokl
    domokl 10 August 2013 08: 35 New
    +8
    R defective cars were written a year ago. But Ukraine, probably, hoped for a chance. Not a ride.
    I wonder how they will get out? The contract is most likely to be lost and the armored personnel carriers will not be returned.
  4. SPACE
    SPACE 10 August 2013 08: 41 New
    +4
    Quote: maxvet
    Is it really interesting marriage or politics?

    It seems to me that this was politics, that Ukraine will sign an association agreement with the EU and will accept armored vehicles. Poor Ukraine everyone does with it what they want and how they want. We go there without knowing where to do that, without knowing what. Ukraine is not a player, this is a prize.
    1. Edward72
      Edward72 10 August 2013 08: 46 New
      +9
      The weak leadership of Kiev, the corresponding result. The Old Man in hell doesn’t put Europe and mattress.
      1. Aleks21
        Aleks21 10 August 2013 10: 14 New
        +1
        It is so. But Old Man is already in the ears of the TS and will not be able to twitch much anymore - he may not survive.
        1. Gecko
          Gecko 10 August 2013 11: 39 New
          +1
          If it weren’t profitable for him, he would have long ago “sailed away” with apologies to Europe.
  5. The comment was deleted.
    1. Edward72
      Edward72 10 August 2013 09: 00 New
      10
      Maybe at one time I didn’t work with the best representatives of the independent, but they work on the principle and will do so.
  6. valokordin
    valokordin 10 August 2013 08: 43 New
    +4
    It’s strange, it’s necessary to be just headless in order to foist a weapon unsuitable for battle, if, as if it were gratuitous help, we’ll fix it on the way. Probably in Ukraine got his own Serdyuk.
  7. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 10 August 2013 08: 45 New
    +6
    Yes, the Ukrainians brothers will oblom you .. I will have to take this whole batch, like 2000 tanks to cut, to let the EU pay you with joy .. Or maybe you are hinting that you would unload this equipment to Syria (to the evil of Russia) ??? That would be complete ..
    1. Klisha
      Klisha 10 August 2013 09: 01 New
      +5
      That would be Assad’s help.
  8. Constantine
    Constantine 10 August 2013 08: 50 New
    +6
    42 armored personnel carriers in 4 years - certainly strong. So the remaining 378 can be expected for another 20 years. sad

    Quote: domokl
    R defective cars were written a year ago. But Ukraine, probably, hoped for a chance. Not a ride.


    So the marriage was recognized.

    In general, the picture is sad. Now accusations will be used in all directions, but of course, no one will admit that the military-industrial complex of Ukraine is negligent and does not care about the execution of orders. sad

    An-32 then even collected them? what
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 August 2013 08: 57 New
      +9
      Quote: Constantine
      So marriage recognized

      If the marriage were recognized, then the APCs would not be loaded onto the ship. Moreover, they were tested before loading in the presence of the Iraqi commission. So either they knock down the price or there is no money.
      1. maxvet
        maxvet 10 August 2013 09: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        So either they knock down the price, or there is no money.

        But the Iraqis themselves are paying, or are they taking money for the Americans?
      2. Constantine
        Constantine 10 August 2013 09: 36 New
        +5
        Quote: Kars
        or no money.


        Well, money was found on the Russian Mi-28 and on the Shell. As for loaded / not loaded

        The option of sending specialists to the Malyshev plant to the Middle East to eliminate defects on the spot is being considered



        But the Iraqis themselves are paying, or are they taking money for the Americans?


        There petrodollars of which in countries like Iraq are in abundance. smile
      3. Very old
        Very old 10 August 2013 10: 14 New
        +1
        Kars, well, what's the point of Uncle Sam being dragged home across two oceans by a hacked metal bunker, if he can be tricked into accommodating Iraqis ALREADY, even at a discount
        1. Kars
          Kars 10 August 2013 10: 53 New
          +7
          Quote: Constantine
          Well, money was found on the Russian Mi-28 and on the Shell.

          Well, that’s your money, Iraq is deducting 10 billions to Iraq, and Iraqis are buying 4.5 billion. And it's not a fact that something has already been transferred.

          Quote: Constantine
          The option of sending specialists to the Malyshev plant to the Middle East to eliminate defects on the spot is being considered


          And you find the source, be surprised. There is no official Iraqi claim, Ukrspetseksrot speaks about the regular passage of the contract. Only the ship's owners are telling something and nothing more.
          Quote: Constantine
          There are petrodollars of which in Iraq-like countries in abundance

          I wonder why the USA fought then? Private corporations pump oil, and Iraq receives a small percentage from this.
          Quote: Old very
          ars, well, what's the point of Uncle Sam

          Since Uncle Sem was just breaking the contract for Ukraine, and if the United States had other intentions, then there would be no negotiations.
      4. Corsair
        Corsair 10 August 2013 11: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        If the marriage were recognized, then the APCs would not be loaded onto the ship. Moreover, they were tested before loading in the presence of the Iraqi commission. So either they knock down the price or there is no money.

        Some APCs could "test", and others could ship. Yes, and was there a fact of acceptance? About the venality of the Middle East military legends compose ... fellow
        And at the expense of money, it's you in vain. Iraq, although ruined, is solvent (at least it can freely pay for this shipment of equipment) ...
  9. KononAV
    KononAV 10 August 2013 08: 51 New
    +7
    UKRAINE UKRAINE WHAT A MIRACLE IS A COUNTRY.
  10. alone
    alone 10 August 2013 09: 06 New
    +5
    most likely in this way pressure is put on the authorities to make them more quickly divided with the EU. although there may be something in the BTR-ah
  11. Akim
    Akim 10 August 2013 09: 14 New
    15
    I thought when this news would appear on VO so that the "well-wishers" would swear. We must sell it to Iran. Anyway nearby! And crescents on the crosses to repaint do not dream.
    You yourself think BTR-3 and 4 do the same technology, put the same MSA and weapons. Thailand is pleased, Iraq is not. In America, the crisis - they need to sell their surplus, and not feed Ukraine. Moreover, Katya Yushchenko is no longer in power.
    1. Very old
      Very old 10 August 2013 10: 17 New
      +1
      That's the whole trick. The same casket
    2. zmey_gadukin
      zmey_gadukin 12 August 2013 13: 35 New
      0
      Probably...
  12. erased
    erased 10 August 2013 09: 17 New
    +5
    And he would have neighed over the moment, but after all, our equipment too is far from always of the right quality. Everywhere collapse, just Ukraine is falling apart faster.
  13. Strashila
    Strashila 10 August 2013 09: 23 New
    +3
    "very old, rusty housings, machines unsuitable for use" ... it smells like using remade old Soviet-made cars in al'ya novye.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 10 August 2013 09: 41 New
      +6
      Can you tell me a purely civilian, how is BTR 4 different from old BTRs (for example (BTR-80)?

      As far as I was able to find out on the Internet, these are, if not completely new machines, then in any case very modified, up to the design of the case. How did the machines adopted by Ukraine in 2012 become rusty?
      1. Akim
        Akim 10 August 2013 09: 46 New
        +6
        Quote: Bakht
        Can you tell me a purely civilian, how is BTR 4 different from old BTRs (for example (BTR-80)?

        The layout, the composite armor of the engine compartment, chassis, weapons. In general - to everyone. General - only the width.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 10 August 2013 10: 11 New
          +6
          So how did the APCs get rusty? After all, these are brand new cars. Not talking about the performance characteristics, only the construction.

          Most likely a banal survival from the arms market. So much for the WTO and open markets.
          1. Akim
            Akim 10 August 2013 10: 20 New
            +5
            Quote: Bakht
            So how did the APCs get rusty?

            Ask the Iraqis better. They are now given 2000 M113 and they are buying the first batch of 50 Strikers. Probably not just because they invented a reason. If there was no rust, then the guns would not have earned, they would have stopped firing ATGMs on the APCs. Here politics deceives, not technology.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 August 2013 10: 29 New
              +4
              Not 2000, but 440, and they don’t give, but buy. An addition to the two hundred presented during the formation of the new Iraqi army. In addition, the machines are being upgraded, and not just anybody, but BAE Systems.
              The total transaction amount (cars + resource recovery + modernization) is 163 million dollars.
              1. Akim
                Akim 10 August 2013 10: 48 New
                +5
                Where are the numbers from? Okay, then I’ll be more precise than 1026 bets. And the amount of the contract with the modernization of only 51 lam. This is approximately the same amount that you need to pay for a batch of fours in the Pacific. So give.
                http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2013/07/03/iraq-gets-1026-us-armored-personnel-
                carriers /
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 10 August 2013 11: 05 New
                  +6
                  These tsiferki- a fait accompli, yours- so far only intentions. The amount only for modernization is again for BAE Systems.

                  In short, congratulations, they threw you. Favorite Americans. Now everything fell into place.
                  1. Akim
                    Akim 10 August 2013 11: 20 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Spade
                    In short, congratulations, they threw you. Favorite Americans.

                    I do not give a damn. It would even be better if these beters in the Ukrainian army turn out to be like the Algerian MiGs in Russia (I just remind you of this). As for the numbers 0- read carefully. The sum of all M113 is 32 million bucks, and with modernization - 51
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 10 August 2013 11: 39 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Akim
                      It would even be better if these beters in the Ukrainian army turn out to be like the Algerian MiGs in Russia

                      They’ll sack some Nigeria. You yourself know. It looks like Russia's Algerian experience, but there they were replaced by "drying" under a far-fetched pretext. So the income is still in the country.

                      Quote: Akim
                      As for the numbers 0- read carefully. The sum of all M113 - 32 million bucks

                      Where is 32 there? There are 31 million - so much the Americans will save on storage and 51 million - the cost of upgrading and restoring the resource. Because cars are transferred for free.
                      1. Akim
                        Akim 10 August 2013 20: 34 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Because cars are transferred for free.

                        I said give.
                      2. Akim
                        Akim 11 August 2013 07: 29 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        They’ll sack some Nigeria.

                        This is a relatively expensive armored personnel carrier (compared to used Africa), and also requires some training of the crew. Today, only a few countries have trained technical personnel to service the BTR-3/4. He will not be taken at random. In addition, the commander and medical armored personnel carriers may be unclaimed. Will have to redo it. But in one fell swoop, you can re-equip the Marines of Ukraine. Although I, for the BTR-3 for them.
  14. wlad59
    wlad59 10 August 2013 09: 24 New
    +6
    Some kind of crazy article. (more like a duck) Always and at all times, the acceptance of such specific products was carried out directly at the factory site. It appears from the article that the Iraqis, during the verification tests, rejected the entire batch, but the "evil Ukrainians", nevertheless, drove the entire batch from Kharkov to Odessa, loaded it on a ship and sent to Iraq ??? And someone believes in this nonsense ...
    1. roial
      roial 10 August 2013 09: 36 New
      -4
      Quote: wlad59
      And someone believes in this nonsense ...


      Readers from Russia. This article focuses on them.
    2. svp67
      svp67 10 August 2013 10: 26 New
      -1
      Quote: wlad59
      Always and at all times, acceptance of such specific products was carried out directly at the factory site.

      Pre-acceptance- Yes, final upon arrival, apparently the Iraqi side was preparing for something like that, well, and was bustling about .... So I understand the “Malyshevtsy” painting suffers. Sea air is very aggressive and all the flaws in the preparation of the hulls and their painting during the transition by the sea crawled out. "More carefully, more thoroughly ..."
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 10 August 2013 11: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        So I understand the "Malyshevtsev" suffering painting. Sea air is very aggressive and all the flaws in the preparation of the hulls and their painting during the transition by the sea crawled out. "More carefully, more thoroughly ..."

        The following formulations are recommended:
        (clickable image)
        1. svp67
          svp67 11 August 2013 01: 01 New
          0
          [quote] [quote = Corsair] [/ quote]
          [quote] [b] The following compositions are recommended: [/ quote]
          The composition of the composition is different, what is applicable to cars is not always suitable for combat. But I then talked about the fact that in the production cycle there could be flaws that "got out" under the influence of sea air ...
          1. Corsair
            Corsair 11 August 2013 01: 04 New
            0
            Quote: svp67
            The composition of the composition is different, what is applicable to cars is not always suitable for combat. But I then talked about the fact that in the production cycle there could be flaws that "got out" under the influence of sea air ...

            Sorry, did not appreciate the irony request lol
            And what else but rust could "get out"? I admit a malfunction of optics and electronics ...
            Please focus on your assumption of malfunctions ...
            1. svp67
              svp67 11 August 2013 01: 25 New
              +2
              Now there will be a lot of talk on this topic. I found it here
              Here's what Dumskaya was told by a former employee of one of the research and testing organizations subordinate to the General Staff of the Armed Forces, who personally was involved in testing the very BTR-4E supplied to Iraq:
              “I was an army receiver. Do not confuse with a factory receiver. I tested this piece of iron in conditions that may occur during operation. Index “E” means that the products are exported and not intended for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. For the Armed Forces of Ukraine, another version of this product is provided - BTR-4M. However, it still exists only in the drawings. Of the seven options (projects) - not one was approved.
              But back to the tests. Representatives of the Kharkov plant as they recognized my "mandatory program", so immediately twisted. Calls to Kiev began, after which some test cycles were simply removed.
              Yes, I forgot to say. On the BTR-4 there is generally no tactical and technical task (TTZ - regulatory and technical documents in the development and production system for military equipment that establish a set of requirements for the content, scope and timing of research or development work, - Ed.) . In other words, the country did not order such an APC. This is a personal initiative of comrades from Ukroboronprom, Ukrspetseksprot and the breeders themselves. Without TTZ and the corresponding resolution of the relevant committee (on defense) of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, this is a self-made gun.
              The second one. During the 20 days of the “lightweight” tests initiated by the plant, we identified 35 deficiencies in the machine’s body, 39 shortcomings in the combat module, five shortcomings in the power plant ...
              One such drawback in Soviet times would mean sending equipment for revision. And if there are two or more, then this is a blockage. Full. In short, the car is not just r ... but r ... but in a cube! I finally advised the guys from the factory to often go to the Internet or watch Al-Jazeera so as not to miss the moment when their cars would blaze en masse on the battlefields. And then he learned that all the armored personnel carriers bought by Iraq are constantly in storage, under canopies. The army categorically refuses to ride them. That’s all love. ”

              I suppose that in all its "glory" the charms of small-scale production come out ... When each car is almost unique ...
              1. Akim
                Akim 11 August 2013 05: 08 New
                0
                True or not, I will not argue, but in Ukraine and in Russia, you should always be careful about "former". The most famous example for Russians is Kasyanov.
            2. svp67
              svp67 11 August 2013 09: 44 New
              +2
              Quote: Corsair
              Sorry, did not appreciate the irony

              Sorry, there’s just not a lot of specialists here, you often have to start a dispute from scratch ...
              And what else but rust could "get out"?
              Well, as far as the press can be believed, the Iraqi side had great claims to armaments. In general, I think that all this "whistling-dance" has more political motives ...
    3. Coward
      Coward 10 August 2013 10: 34 New
      +3
      What about hidden defects?
      I judge shipbuilding. Everything is controlled by both the representatives of the customer and the inspectors of classification societies. The ship passes the weight test complex. And the act of acceptance / transfer is signed. But after a year the ship comes for warranty repair, as the contract still prescribes the shipyard’s responsibility to eliminate the identified defects during the first year of operation. I think here something like that.
  15. Bugor
    Bugor 10 August 2013 09: 34 New
    +1
    Nonsense, of course. Filing a lawsuit against Iraq, and all short-lived. After all, we were sued in a similar situation.
    The normal situation is that the buyer has no money. There is nothing to pay. You just need to call "purely specific boys" with muscles, fasten the buyer to the battery with handcuffs, and in a month and without any soldering iron there will be money .. repeat
    Here are just "handcuffs", like "boys", our brotherly country seems to have no .... request
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 August 2013 10: 21 New
      +2
      Iraqis have money. And more. Most likely they do not want a “budget option”, but normal ones. The same Polish. Or french.
      Although it is possible and poor quality, coupled with the optional performance of contracts.
      1. Akim
        Akim 10 August 2013 10: 27 New
        +4
        Quote: Spade
        Most likely they do not want a “budget option”, but normal ones. The same Polish. Or french.

        In April, the second Big Contract was signed. Strikers. And about the budget option. That year, the BTR-4 in Kuwait took Nekster.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 August 2013 10: 50 New
          +1
          Quote: Akim
          That year, the BTR-4 in Kuwait took Nekster.

          Did "Tiger vs. Lynx" style? Some pokatushkami, not paying attention to other characteristics? The Frenchman has protection against landmine explosions. That in the same Iraq is an extremely necessary thing.

          Quote: Akim
          In April, the second Big Contract was signed. Strikers.

          I didn’t hear something. The fact that they buy RHR cars on the basis of Stryker is in the know. And about the armored personnel carrier ... Something you confuse.
          1. Akim
            Akim 10 August 2013 11: 03 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            I didn’t hear something.

            I gave a link to the Iraq site. Read.
            Quote: Spade
            Some pokatushkami, not paying attention to other characteristics?

            Everything was both skating and shooting. Nekster won in shooting, but the four also met the standards, without super-optics and a thermal imager. And BTR-4 also did not have a separate Conder for the paratroopers. But overall he won. True, it was not a tender yet. But Kuwait will buy Nexter anyway. Policy.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 August 2013 11: 11 New
              +2
              Quote: Akim
              I gave a link to the Iraq site. Read.

              Exactly. "50 M1135 Stryker Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Reconnaissance Vehicles (pictured) and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $ 900 million"
              http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/2013/07/30/iraq-seeks-2bn-in-us-military-equipm
              ent /
              Where is it about the Stryker armored personnel carrier?

              Quote: Akim
              But overall he won.

              In short, pokatushki.
              1. Akim
                Akim 10 August 2013 20: 02 New
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                In short, pokatushki.

                Pokatushki can be considered if the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine (let's fantasize) held a tender and by law any manufacturer can participate in it. And the Polish Wolverine came out against Rook-M. And here are two foreign states in Kuwait. My personal opinion: the French were scared. This is not the first time Kuwait has wanted to hold a tender. The French won it over the Americans and Italians for the first time. But the tender did not take place, everyone was sent for revision. There was no second tender at all because the French lost to the Ukrainians and began undercover agreements with Kuwait. Most interesting: on French sites not a word about it.
  16. Lukich
    Lukich 10 August 2013 09: 42 New
    +6
    ... yes, Iraqis mow, they are Muslims, and our armored personnel carriers must be greased with pork fat, so they skid ...
  17. The Indian Joe
    The Indian Joe 10 August 2013 10: 14 New
    +3
    Marriage - he is a marriage in Africa.
  18. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 10 August 2013 10: 21 New
    +2
    In fact, recently Iraq has already bought a batch of armored personnel carriers. Amerovsky Bushny, M-113, if not mistaken. Apparently they already have enough, so they are giving up the excess. And the Ukrainian side gives them a reason for this - it does not fulfill the delivery time.
  19. svp67
    svp67 10 August 2013 10: 22 New
    +1
    According to the deputy, in the course of the investigation it was established that all the armored personnel carriers delivered were “very old, corps rusty, cars unsuitable for use”.
    How strange is the new APCs - the old hulls, what kind of "phenomenon"?
    1. experienced
      experienced 10 August 2013 10: 25 New
      +7
      Quote: svp67
      How strange is the new APCs - the old hulls, what kind of "phenomenon"?

      Surely they used cases from equipment that had been on conservation since the days of the USSR. This is a fairly common method of upgrading armored vehicles.
  20. MIKHAN
    MIKHAN 10 August 2013 10: 29 New
    +1
    With this batch of Ukrainian weapons, it’s clear that something is not pure .. the Anglo-Saxons are plotting something .. (and this is against the background of Ukraine’s entry into the EU ..) Brothers -Ukrainians beat what “partners” beat you up for ????
  21. taseka
    taseka 10 August 2013 10: 33 New
    0
    It’s just a matter of a significant discount on the product!
  22. Coward
    Coward 10 August 2013 10: 50 New
    0
    It seems to me that the shipowner organized all this "fuss" in the media.
  23. 12345
    12345 10 August 2013 10: 52 New
    +4
    Nezalezhnye-pei_saty "lohany"!

    Or - where frugality ends and dull greed begins.

    Bearded anecdote.

    In the morning, a Jew carries a three-liter jar full of yellow liquid. Towards the neighbor:

    - Taki - beer?
    - Taki - analyzes. And lest they say that the Jews are greedy!

    In the evening, the Jew returns with a full three-liter can again. Again - a neighbor:

    - Well, is it beer?
    - Taki again - tests. They found sugar there! Why does good disappear?

    But, in essence, they were greedy for a business trip to Ukraine for the customer’s military representatives. We would have met, “sat well” and signed all the necessary papers.

    Apparently - disdained. It is a well-known case, WHO from the Arabs turns its long, hooked "nose up".

    Well, yes, that's what IM is needed for. "Miser pays twice." ©
    1. Akim
      Akim 10 August 2013 11: 12 New
      +6
      Quote: 12345
      Nezalezhnye-pei_saty "lohany"!

      teuelsizny (from the word "tәuelsіz")12345. Do you like it? I don’t either. Because everyone can talk with a mockery.
      1. Alibekulu
        Alibekulu 10 August 2013 12: 36 New
        +2
        Quote: Akim
        teuelsizny (from the word "tәuelsіz") 12345. Do you like it?

        Yes, do not care for him ... kazak emes ol negative - he is not Kazakh .. and I think in Kazakh no belmez ..
        1. 12345
          12345 10 August 2013 21: 58 New
          -1
          Quote: Alibekulu
          ... he is not Kazakh ...


          Alas, not a Kazakh, not once. Maine - Orys. Men Oryssha Seileu.
          However, in Kazakh, mal-mal belmes.

          I remember, in Soviet times, we had such a theme here in Kazakhstan: "bilingualism - friendship is two wings."

          After Kazakhstan gained "independence", it was somehow immediately forgotten about the "two-winged friendship". Like, there is a state language - and the point! Kindly learn!
          Like, we, the oppressed, at one time were forced to learn the Russian language, and now it's your turn to learn Kazakh.

          Well, then, Soviet people are obedient ... I remember I opened the textbook of the Kazakh language and the first thing I learned about it is about the “law of syngarmonism”, which, in addition to the Kazakh language, also has a place in the language ... french! (True true!)

          Stop, I told myself, but should I learn French instead of Kazakh? After all, French is a large part of all world literary classics (in “War and Peace” by Leo Tolstoy - entire pages are found exclusively in French, but Tolstoy, the Great Pushkin, as a poet began with French), plus a very, very not frail science (by specialty), but what, sorry mua, will I get by studying Kazakh? Grandpa Abay’s songs "in the original"? I have absolutely nothing against this grandfather, but the French win by a wide margin. Yes, it is much more complicated than the Kazakh one, with its conjugations and case endings (compare "kazak emes ol" - the dictionary forms are literally given, literally "he is not Kazakh"), but French is definitely worth it.

          By the way, regarding the “violent coercion to the Russian language”, which is what the local “patriots” (fortunately few in number) like to recall, I cite one curious fact: there are only four (!) Languages ​​in the world in which textbooks on Nuclear Physics: English, Russian, French and Chinese.

          And finally. There were, somehow, we have here on local television "Days of China in Kazakhstan." It turns out in China - Kazakhs also live! Chinese television in a documentary show showed their way of life.

          All polls live in yurts. Observe national traditions. They live as great-grandfathers-great-grandfathers exclusively by cattle breeding. All are illiterate (yeah, try to learn natural Chinese literacy!) They don’t hire anyone at enterprises (illiterate ones are unnecessary).
          All are young and beautiful (there is no medicine either, until old age - few survive). In general - "greetings from a distant history"!

          As the saying goes: "Everything is known by comparison ..." ©.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 12345
              12345 11 August 2013 10: 28 New
              -2
              Quote: Alibekulu
              "Kazakh response" to Great Russian chauvinism, which is clearly manifested in your comment ..


              Well, here, citizens, another Kazakh "patriot" - in all the "brilliance" of their ugliness.

              He started educated “on you”, but then, apparently, emotions won out, he could not resist and switched “on you”. When did you and I drink to the Brudershaft?

              The answer is “Alibekovich,” and yet, in part, his name is partially translated - sheer resentment and emotion. And, actually - what to take offense at? What kind of "chauvinism" are you trying to "blow" something here? Under the "Soviets" there were huge quotas on a national basis both in universities and in the government.

              Apparently, there is resentment, why did these quotas not make up all 100%? Well, then, after all, someone had to work later on in real production. And, do not engage in "general guidance".

              And there is nothing offensive here. You need to learn. Learn and grow. And do not "let through the lip" the famous "Kipchak swagger".

              Nesto an example of a dilapidated Kyrgyzstan - does not teach anything? However, it seems that studying is clearly not your calling ...

              Quote: Alibekulu
              I, as I understand you are a specialist ... ??
              Why are you in Kazakhstan ... ??


              I’m a specialist, yes. And, in Kazakhstan - solely because I like it here. I lived in different places, and I have something to compare. Both nature and people. The people here, by the way - are much kinder and more pleasant, for the most part, than in Russia. In Russia - "alibekovich" - are much more common. And, like, "their", but still - unpleasant. Highly.

              Moreover, a strange thing, all the "alibekovichs", regardless of nationality, have a striking resemblance in their behavior. From Slavs to Kipchaks and from Jewish Arabs to Chinese. Almost like patients with Down's disease. Those, too, are all "on one face," only, without pretense, that they are very favorably distinguished.

              There is such an anecdote:

              - When will they live in Russia, like in Europe?
              - After 200 years.
              - Why ???
              - Because in Russia the first university was built 200 years later ...

              Well, with the example of the absolutely ugly answer of Alibekovich, even for those ignorant of history, it is simply “without glasses” that in Kazakhstan the first university (moreover, the "evil invaders") was built even later. Much later. Sorry - to blame ...
              1. Alibekulu
                Alibekulu 11 August 2013 10: 59 New
                -1
                12345:
                Well, here, citizens, another Kazakh "patriot"

                soldier yes it's me))) .. And ??
                12345:
                Well, on the example of a completely ugly answer "Alibekovich"
                And, how to understand this "inconsistent" example ??? - Quote: 12345Nezalezhnye-pei_saty "lohany"!
                Quote: 12345
                vivid resemblance. Almost like patients with Down's disease.
                U, what a "smartly clever" troll))) Look in the mirror ..
                1234:
                he could not resist and switched "to you"

                Yes, from the very beginning I wrote to you on "you" .. It would be someone to talk to .. "You" is an appeal to the general mass of "Great Chauvinists" ..
                12345:
                Apparently, there is an insult to why these quotas did not constitute all 100%?

                Where are in my comments on quotas ?? wink
                Ah, insult, moreover you’re naked)). That we can do pretty well without you)) And, "an example of a dilapidated Kyrgyzstan" there is no place .. do not even hope .. Well, Kazakhstan does not live up to your hopes)) Well, we did not “Zimbabwe” laughing And they didn’t "crawl on their knees" .. and we won’t be able to block the gas .. and don’t forbid Borjomi ...
                Go on, Daragoi hi yet, write a che-thread ..
                1. 12345
                  12345 11 August 2013 14: 09 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Alibekulu
                  Ah, insult, moreover you’re naked)). That we can do pretty well without you)) And, "an example of a dilapidated Kyrgyzstan" is out of place ..


                  Have mercy, to be offended by very sick "whole head" people? However, this is a sin.

                  Regarding the "example of a dilapidated Kyrgyzstan," as they say - "not yet evening." And the more there will be such pseudo-patriots as “Alibekovich, the sooner this“ evening ”will come. By the way, to a certain extent, this concerns Russia as well.

                  Regarding Kyrgyzstan, while resting on Issyk-Kul, I heard a phrase from one boiler, full of smug arrogance: "The Kyrgyz are poor! They have nothing ..."

                  However, the presence of natural wealth is a "double-edged sword". On the one hand, there is something to feed the population, and on the other, without a nuclear baton, all this is extremely precarious. Examples of Libya and Syria are all a warning. One can’t expect anything good from the withdrawal of NATO from Afghanistan, nothing good for Central Asia. Russia, anymore, somehow no longer burns with a great desire to defend "small, but proud" and very independent peoples. Therefore, if Grandfather Nazarbayev had not shown his wisdom in organizing an alliance with Russia, I personally would have left for a long time.

                  There is one more problem. China. I was there, somehow, on business. The sight is more than impressive. The entire population of the Republic of Kazakhstan (!) Can fit in a small (!) Chinese suburb.

                  Anyone (unlike the “Alibekovichs”) who is at least somewhat familiar with the basics of nature science in the elementary grades of the high school itself will remember Aristotle's grandfather, with his “Nature does not tolerate emptiness”.
                  And, therefore, the existence of two countries with a common border, in one of which the population density is one of the highest, and in the other one of the smallest is FREQUENT.
                  Recall that Tibet, relatively recently, was also independent. Well, where is he, today, that Tibet? Huh? I can not hear! That's it - it ...

                  Kazakhstan had a not-so-rich choice of whom to lean against.
                  As the Kazakhs were lowered to a medieval level in China, the Chinese themselves documented it.
                  What ends with "friendship with the West" - the unfortunate Gaddafi demonstrated, peace be upon him.

                  Well, and with Russia-have long become familiar. We know each other through and through: what and when to wait.

                  Moreover, the fact that Kazakhstan has the “helm” of Kazakhs alone is not so, it’s bad: otherwise, after the confusion of the 90s, today only Jews would have stood there, as they are today in Ukraine, or in Russia, before coming of Putin. And, with such "helmsmen" it rarely happens when that ends well.

                  The main thing is that the Kazakhs by nature are not nationalists, unlike, say, Kyrgyz or Uzbeks.

                  Some “Alibekovichs” - well, urban madmen, they are found everywhere, especially since a single “Alibekovich” is not so hopeless: he nailed him, despite all his “quacks,” to a Russian-language site.

                  Hunger for real Culture is a strong thing ...
                  1. 12345
                    12345 11 August 2013 14: 56 New
                    0
                    Quote: 12345
                    "The Kyrgyz are poor! They have nothing ..."


                    Yes, they are not like that, beggars, if they wanted to work. I'm talking about the national mentality.

                    One Issyk-Kul - what it costs! By golly, if he was a little smaller - he could be bottled like a mineral water.

                    All the shores were ALREADY built up with READY boarding houses. Only - support! They didn’t want to ...

                    A little touch: I change the currency in Kyrgyzstan to the local one. The course is predatory, but there is no choice, because local authorities share with the money changer. The exchange has occurred, I believe and it turns out that the amount is 30% lower. I force to count: in response "mouth to ear" - "sorry bro - I was mistaken." Counts it all over again. I recount again - 10% is already missing.

                    And, here is such an ingenuous-naive greed EVERYTHING!

                    And, once there was an international joke. Years, that’s 12. All with the same Issyk-Kul. One foreign company mined gold on the shore of this lake. And gold is “rectified” by precipitation in cyanide-containing electrolytes.

                    And then there was an accident: at a machine taking out barrels of spent electrolyte for recycling, a board “unfastened” in a strange way directly a few hundred meters from the water's edge and, horror !!! One of the barrels - let it flow ...

                    The Kyrgyz - immediately trumpeted around the world that Issyk-Kul - "hopelessly poisoned" and rolled out astronomical accounts to a foreign company "to compensate for the environmental disaster."

                    As a result, the already few vacationers accepting disgusting service in memory of past splendor and still appreciating the magnificent nature - "it was blown away by the wind."
                    "For the rest of my life." ©

                    And the scandal - somehow imperceptibly "came to naught." And no Kyrgyz paid any payments.

                    Then, it happened to me to rest on the same Issyk-Kul, where I met an old Russian woman who, it turned out, was a doctor of chemical sciences and one of the outside experts invited to assess the very “damage”.

                    Everything turned out to be in typical Kyrgyz national "traditions."
                    Firstly, the volume of leakage through a small crack (!) In the damaged barrel was less than ... two (!) Liters.
                    Secondly, under the conditions of production, the transportation of such substances is carried out only with preliminary dilution to the most ACCEPTABLE concentrations!

                    In other words, my grandmother, a doctor of chemistry, told me with a laugh that what was in barrels could theoretically even be drunk without a guaranteed immediate fatal outcome!

                    And the vacationers, for the most part, never returned. The rest of the boarding houses - finally fell apart, and Turkey-Egypt did their job.

                    Greed and dullness - how popular the combination, so much - destructive ...
                  2. Alibekulu
                    Alibekulu 12 August 2013 05: 19 New
                    +1
                    Quote: 12345
                    Have mercy, to be offended by very sick "whole head" people? However, this is a sin.
                    "Yes, you’re old man boor" (Quote from the cartoon "Teremok" very well suited to this character .. laughing )
                    Hamit, and professionally .. It seems like he would insult jokingly ... And then, "sincerely" resents when he is put in place ..
                    Ah, in my short comment in a few words Akim to his shamelessly boorish mockery towards the Ukrainians:
                    Quote: 12345
                    Nezalezhnye-pei_saty "lohany"!
                    he burst into angry tirade a whole page)))
                    Well, there is a fan of jokes, such a joke is written off from you directly ..
                    Quarreled husband and wife. He says to her:
                    - Honey, you're wrong.
                    And she told him:
                    - Ah, I'm wrong, right? So I'm telling a lie? In other words, I am lying - I am breaching, that is. If I breach, then I am a dog? Ahh, mom, he called me a bitch !!!

                    This is all of you .. Examples - you attributed to me .. similarity, Almost, as in patients with "Down's disease", famous "Kipchak swagger", kooky... called well city crazy
                    Ah, you are so cool, veiled insulting ..Any (unlike "alibekovich"), who is at least somewhat familiar with the basics of nature science in the elementary grades of high school itself good
                    Listen, I know, like a Russian mat and a diamat, but ... But don’t hope for your child’s provocations. bully do not even hope...
                    The third time I write ..
                    Quote 12345:Well, on the example of a completely ugly answer "Alibekovich"
                    ..
                    Quote: Alibekulu And, how to understand this "inconsistent" example ??? - Quote: 12345Not fallow-drink_saty "fucked up"!
                    Not Julia and directly, in Russian answer ... how does my supposedly "ugly answer" differ from your comment in the direction of the Ukrainians, which I quoted above ??? repeat
                    1. 12345
                      12345 12 August 2013 09: 37 New
                      0
                      "Alibekovich" - as a vivid illustration of proverbs: "At the thief - and the hat burns!" ©. And, more precisely - "Smells kitty, whose meat has eaten ..." ©

                      In psychiatry, this behavior is called "self-projection." And, an anecdote, here - it came to a very topic. Bo, "Alibekovich", having finally lost control of himself, literally - "completely undressed" in front of a public audience. Exhibitionism?


                      Quote: Alibekulu
                      Listen, I know, like a Russian mat and a diamat, but ...


                      Well, the fact that the “alibekovichs” know the Russian mat is that they try to demonstrate at every opportunity, this is one of their distinguishing features. And, unfortunately, our Alibekovich is no exception ...
                      With a diamate, as with all other knowledge, everything is much more complicated. Yes, and with a mat, to be honest - also "not very": the designs are more and more primitive, "on the same floor." Alas - and here is not a "specialist".
                      Maybe that's why, being frank amateurs in everything, “alibekovichs” hate real “specialists” so much? In the dirty lips of "alibekovich," even the very word "specialist" sounds abusive.

                      I knew one “alibekovich,” who uttered the phrase: “Russians are experts ...” uttered with inimitably “thick” contempt, making the main emphasis precisely on the last word.
                      Moreover, this “alibekovich” himself, which is characteristic, could not do anything decisively.

                      Quote: Alibekulu
                      ... directly, in Russian, answer ... how does my supposedly "ugly answer" differ from your comments in the direction of the Ukrainians ...


                      Well, well, in view of urgent requests, you have to "enlighten" the next "dark aborigine." It will not be difficult, especially since for my mother, I myself am half a crest.
                      Firstly, the presence of profanity. This is the ugliest, in view of which, I believe, the commentary of Alibekovich was deleted. By the way, it’s not at my request at all: when the enemy covers himself with frank shame, it’s not in my principles to prevent this.
                      Secondly, an openly vulgar manner of communication, it is also "not comme il faut."

                      Now, with regards to our Slavic “scatter”, it would be better for the Kipchaks not to interfere.
                      The word “independent” is not just printed, but the LITERARY word of the Ukrainian language: see the original “independent”. The ending “" ”instead of“ "” is due to the fact that the letter “and” in the Ukrainian language reads like “" ”.
                      Thus, the “unfortunate Ukrainians”, whose protection was so vigorously raised by the “brave dzhigit Alibekovich,” suffered only from the frankly dark ignorance of Alibekovich himself, which, in general, does not surprise anyone here.
                      Moreover, in the expression “nezalezhno-pei_syaty”, Ukrainians were NOT implied at all!

                      Well, Mr. Alibekovich? Now, calm down?
                      Or will you start, no less cheerfully, to defend the already “unfortunate Jews"?
          2. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 12 August 2013 05: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: 12345
            Stop, I told myself, but should I learn French instead of Kazakh? After all, French is a large part of the whole world literary classics
            Stop "darago" I tell you, and where do you live ??? The fruits of whose land you eat ?? Whose air are you breathing ?? At least just out of respect for the land on which you live, where you work .. out of respect for people with whom you again live and work .. At least because you like here. and because you lived in different places, and you there is something to compare.
            Well, at least for the sake of peopleThat here, by the way - much kinder and more pleasant, for the most part, than in Russia.??? !!! request
            For the sake of all this, that definitely worth it ... hi and you should learn the Kazakh language ...
            1. 12345
              12345 12 August 2013 10: 30 New
              0
              Quote: Alibekulu
              Stop "darago" I tell you, and where do you live ??? The fruits of whose land you eat ?? Whose air are you breathing ?? At least just out of respect for the land on which you live, where you work ..


              Finally! Ah, I already thought - I won’t wait!

              Outpourings began on the theme: "WHOSE do you eat bread? WHOSE do you trample on the ground?"

              And, "Alibekovich", more recently, said that he was far from the Kyrgyz ...
              And, after all, there too, with - THIS began. And Kazakhstan - in this direction, too, can "slide" very easily. For "trends" have long been the place to be.

              Why haven’t I left yet? Paradoxically, because 90% of my friends (!) Have already left. Among them there are a lot of those who "donkey" not only in Russia, but also in Canada and Australia. And they earn there by no means "delivery of pizza." This is very, I repeat very qualified specialists (I see how "Alibekovich" again "jerked" from this word).
              So, in my specialty, the people have "all-nothing", fingers of one hand is enough to count. And when a shortage occurs in the market, including the labor market, the cost of this commodity-labor increases many times. Which I frankly use.
              These "lawyers-economists" can be stamped in three years. And, technical specialists, for three years - "Mowing - take a bite!" ©
              “From seven to ten,” at least, and even if there is a School.

              And, the School in Kazakhstan, even in Soviet times, was, to put it mildly - "not up to par."
              By the way, prophylactically stopping the next possible reproaches, I note that I was not studying in Kazakhstan and, again, I have something to compare with.

              I will not list what else is required, except for the School, I note that no activity in the development of all this, in Kazakhstan, is observed.

              As a result, even nails have become so "high-tech" products that they are already being transported from China. Yes, that is nails! They have forgotten how to grow onions themselves!

              There is very little left: to squeeze out the last remnants of the “Russian-speaking”, and there, “because of the distant hill” they will find a reason and an opportunity to brew the Great Troubles here.
              Zhuzes can quarrel among themselves, and they can "pull up" Islamists from Afghanistan.
              "Test of the pen" in Zhanaozen has already taken place.

              PS. And, "Kazakh mov" I - "trohi rozumiyu." Approximately in the same proportion as between contributions to world culture and science between the Kazakh and French languages.
              1. Alibekulu
                Alibekulu 12 August 2013 14: 09 New
                +1
                Quote: 12345
                Paradoxically, because 90% of my friends (!) Have already left. Among them there are a lot of those who "donkey" not only in Russia, but also in Canada and Australia.
                It is ironic that such a specialist has not yet “donkeyed” only in Canada, but even in Russia ?? !! That your "high qualification" is in demand only in Kazakhstan, and even then due to personal acquaintances and contacts .. request
                Quote: 12345
                There is very little left: squeeze out the last remnants of the “Russian-speaking”
                Why are you still not "squeezing out ???" ..
                Quote: 12345
                And, "Kazakh mov" I - "trohi rozumiyu." Approximately in the same proportion as between contributions to world culture and science between the Kazakh and French languages.
                I, as you understand in all the "trohi rosum"
                Therefore, you are still in Kazakhstan ...
                Quote: 12345
                "because of the distant hillock" they will find a reason and an opportunity to brew the Great Troubles here.
                We hear these hysterical predictions from the moment of the formation of the Republic of Kazakhstan, but somehow everything does not happen request Tired of wait-s ..
                And there is no need to insult either Ukrainians, Jews or Kazakhs and Kyrgyz ..
                1. 12345
                  12345 12 August 2013 16: 52 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Alibekulu
                  That your "high qualification" is in demand only in Kazakhstan, and even then due to personal acquaintances and contacts ..


                  "Personal acquaintances and connections"? For NOT a Kazakh? In Kazakhstan? May - dare ...

                  Oh, this indestructible "eastern mentality"! Well, they don’t understand "alibekovich", HOW it can be earned decently WITHOUT "personal acquaintances and connections"!

                  The brain, the dear Alibekovich, exclusively - the brain. It is very difficult to understand, especially for those who do not have it, but try. What? Again - no way? Well, don’t be upset ... But, you have good songs!

                  Quote: Alibekulu

                  I, as you understand in all the "trohi rosum"
                  Therefore, you are still in Kazakhstan ...


                  That is, according to Alibekovich, EVERYTHING who stayed in Kazakhstan "trochs will rosme" EVERYTHING?

                  Such self-criticism is hard to overestimate! However, he knows better, it’s hard for me to argue with him on such a question.
                  In my environment, worthy people still remained, and among them, by the way, there were not a few Kazakhs.

                  PS. Specially for the “especially gifted”, conceived “on a drunken night” and born with an atrophied brain: I personally did not try to offend anyone.
                  And if someone is not able, due to the above reasons, to understand this, then let him read this paragraph 100 (one hundred) times every day. The paragraph begins after the Latin letters with a period (PS.), Where without brackets.
                  Vous comprenez l'allusion?
                  1. Alibekulu
                    Alibekulu 12 August 2013 17: 58 New
                    0
                    Quote: 12345
                    PS. Specially for the “especially gifted”, conceived “on a drunken night” and born with an atrophied brain: I personally did not try to offend anyone.
                    laughing Even in this pinched shovik, who, as he says, did not try to offend .. was born with expressions: conceived "in a drunken night", born with an atrophied brain fool
                    Well, a fan of jokes, here's one right about you ..
                    "... - Tell me, doctor, what is wrong with me - I say one thing, I think another, do I do the third?
                    - Sorry, we are not treating Stalinism ... "
                    hi
                    1. 12345
                      12345 13 August 2013 11: 08 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Alibekulu
                      conceived "on a drunk night" born with the atrophied brain fool


                      Actually, the phrase was addressed to a certain abstract interlocutor, but, here’s the choice whether YOU PERSONALLY belong to this group of mental invalids, I repeat, THIS choice remained exclusively for the manifestation of YOUR free will.
                      You have made your choice. The fact that you are an obvious disabled person was noticeable almost from your first post, but did not expect that, YOU will confess everything in everything ...

                      Just like in the next bearded joke.

                      They gathered, somehow, back in the USSR, representatives of all nationalities in one huge hall. They gathered and announced that our scientists are working to try to determine the most backward, in its development, nation.
                      At that moment, suddenly, the Chukchi rises and with a serene childish smile on his face announces: "But we have, however, the songs are good!"

                      My sincere condolences to your parents.
                      Feed from a spoon ... Constantly change bibs and diapers to your oversized child, who has one outlet in his life - a computer ...

                      That’s it, I won’t argue anything with you: you’ll break this dear toy again, and when your unfortunate old people will raise money for a new one ...
                      1. Alibekulu
                        Alibekulu 13 August 2013 14: 15 New
                        0
                        Quote: 12345
                        The fact that you are an obvious disabled person was noticeable almost from your first post, but did not expect that, YOU will confess everything in everything ...
                        What else can you imagine ??? laughing
                        Another portion of tantrums ..
                        Don’t get lost, otherwise I just thought that you were missing somewhere ..
                        Quote 12345:In psychiatry, this behavior is called "self-projection."
                        One Issyk-Kul - why worth!
                        ..
                        but French, definitely Worth it.
                        I, as I understand your "self-projection", emphasized around the word "worth" negative
                        As I understand it, you go to sublimate here ..
                        That "mayfuna broke" belay ?? Well, now everything is being treated wink
                        Quote: 12345
                        My sincere condolences to your parents.
                        Yours, too, I'm sorry ..
                        Quote: 12345
                        change bibs and diapers
                        You have only a short time left laughing
                        RS: Grandfather, don’t get lost .. I’m going on a business trip .. so I won’t be able to immediately answer your nonsense .. But, as soon as, right away .. hi
  24. vitas
    vitas 10 August 2013 11: 38 New
    0
    Well, brothers Ukrainians ...
    1. Gecko
      Gecko 10 August 2013 11: 46 New
      0
      Get used to gifts of such a plan from your beloved USA ...
  25. bomg.77
    bomg.77 10 August 2013 11: 39 New
    +1
    This is politics. It cannot be that the buyer does not check the equipment in Ukraine.
    The Americans probably want to sell their armored vehicles to Iraq, which fought in Afghanistan and Iraq, and to squeeze the Ukrainians.
    .
  26. mirag2
    mirag2 10 August 2013 14: 16 New
    +1
    No, dear comrades! This is not politics! The quality of Ukrainian industrial goods has fallen, and EVEN military equipment. As well as with us, except that to a greater extent (remember the batch of defective AKs). Or, what do you think, that in Ukraine is young people eager to graduate and work in a factory where they pay little money?
    I tell you: they have the same problems as ours, as an optimist, I hope that they have affected us to a lesser extent.
  27. uestlend
    uestlend 10 August 2013 14: 24 New
    +2
    The Hindus also delivered our equipment of such quality in the late 90s, as a result, they almost got it for free
  28. Anphy
    Anphy 10 August 2013 15: 00 New
    +1
    Most low-quality products within the country diverge perfectly for decent "kickbacks." With foreign deliveries, a similar number, apparently, always goes far.
  29. Conepatus
    Conepatus 10 August 2013 15: 25 New
    +3
    Just neh. it was the mediators in this contract to take the Americans. Not only did Ukraine have a penny under this contract, but there were also some misunderstandings. But in general, it’s okay, the Americans didn’t refuse from the Italian transporters either. forest fell. And their property, pick up to cover the damage. We will remain in profit.
  30. Siberian
    Siberian 10 August 2013 17: 10 New
    +2
    Quote: maxvet
    It’s interesting, really marriage, or politics? And if marriage, then what exactly is the claim?

    Most likely a simple cheap East Asian policy. A "marriage" in technology, it is enough for everyone, and the Americans, and the Germans, and ours. It’s just that every brag needs to be corrected on time.
  31. gych
    gych 10 August 2013 19: 21 New
    +2
    Quote: roial
    What then should be cracks?
    And why did the Iraqis not notice them at the preliminary acceptance ??

    Right to the point! Before loading, the inspector’s technician at the factory is represented by the customer’s representatives! And what kind of rusty cases can they talk about ?! BTR-4 is assembled from scratch, and not upgraded from old models!
  32. Kowalsky
    Kowalsky 10 August 2013 22: 59 New
    +2
    I have no idea if there is a marriage there (I really want to believe that it is not), the thing is different. The Iraqis forgot the simple truth spoken by Bren: Woe to the vanquished. There is no doubt that the Americans vparivayut their junk in huge batches. So do not Iraqis *** and resent. Of course, Ukraine is not the United States, because in Baghdad they decided to play independence and show ambition. But whether they want it or not, these armored personnel carriers will be delivered to them if this is decided in the USA. My personal opinion is that the contract with Iraq really was a kind of payment for Ukraine’s participation in that war (albeit indirect). As long as the Americans allow, Ukraine will be able to supply at least worn footcloths to Iraq.
  33. michajlo
    michajlo 11 August 2013 01: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: Kowalsky
    I have no idea if there is a marriage there (I really want to believe that it is not), the thing is different. The Iraqis forgot the simple truth spoken by Bren: Woe to the vanquished. There is no doubt that the Americans vparivayut their junk in huge batches. So do not Iraqis *** and resent. Of course, Ukraine is not the United States, therefore, in Baghdad, they decided to play independence and show ambition. But whether they want it or not, these armored personnel carriers will be delivered to them if this is decided in the USA. My personal opinion - the contract with Iraq was really a kind of payment for Ukraine’s participation in that war (albeit indirect). While the Americans will allow Ukraine will be able to deliver to Iraq at least worn footcloths.

    Good evening everyone!
    The background in this story may eventually turn out to be the point expressed here or completely different. no
    But what, although it was to be expected, it still pricked in my heart that if my native Ukraine, long ago "so obediently jumping as she is whistled" from SovDep, how they will “use it without hesitation” after signing the Treaty of Intent to join the EU in September 2013! sad
  34. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 11 August 2013 10: 36 New
    +1
    The point is not in the armored personnel carriers themselves, which no one, neither Iraq, nor Ukraine needs nafig in any form. It’s just that Iraq is trying to return part of its money that amers spent for them, thanking ukrov in such an intricate way for helping to plunder Iraq.
  35. Silkway0026
    Silkway0026 11 August 2013 16: 33 New
    +2
    I worked for several years in Lebanon (not Iraq, of course, but the Arabs are all oiled with one myrrh). and so, whenever my businessmen approached me with a request to assist in organizing a transaction for the sale of certain goods to Lebanon or elsewhere in the Arab conclave, the first thing I STRONGLY recommended to our customers was not to sell on delivery terms to the buyer's port (CIF). only that they themselves come and take in the country of shipment (FOB). This is an Arab chip - when the goods arrived to them, i.e. a lot of money was spent on shipping, transport ... etc (that is, you already got a lot of money) - they get on board the vessel and say no, it’s not good, and any of their CCIs is ready to confirm that you really brought them guano. and then the bidding begins: ".... okay, we are ready to consider, but what will be the new price, taking into account what price you brought to us ..."

    so - this is an ordinary Arabian divorce on the grandmother ... do not look deeply, stupidly ho.hl.y we lounged on the terms of the contract
  36. rok
    rok 11 August 2013 19: 54 New
    0
    In short garbage and not news.
  37. RoTTor
    RoTTor 12 August 2013 00: 49 New
    0
    But did the OTC or military representatives die out completely or degrade by 110%?