Military Review

Russians in the US War of Independence in 1775-1783

79
Russians in the US War of Independence in 1775-1783

From the very beginning of the birth of their statehood, the United States has friendly relations with Russia. So, in the war for independence from England, at least 6 Russians fought on the US side, among them the most famous merchant, military sailor, and later American diplomat in Russia Fedor Karzhavin, who became American major Viktor Rosenthal and slave Vasily Baranshchikov.


Russian propaganda does not stop for a moment in anti-American hysteria, and does not even suspect how absurd its position looks. The United States and Russia have always had friendly relations, and the 95% of this friendship came from the American side. Only in one twentieth century, the United States saved Russia three times: first from the monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the village), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year plans; at last - by lend-lease in the Second World War. America could save our country for the fourth time — apparently, definitively, by introducing it into a common European home, but immediately after the end of the Great Patriotic War Stalin refused to adopt the Marshall Plan.

This friendship was in fact one-sided, but sometimes Russia also condescended to US aid. For example, US citizens took part in the birth of US independence in 1775-1783. Many immigrants from Europe then assisted the young state with their military experience. The names of the Frenchman Marquis Lafayette, the Polish generals K. Paustovsky and T. Kostyuszko, the German von Steiben - the closest associates of Washington, who held command posts in his army, are well known. But the names of the Russian heroes of that war are still almost unknown to the Americans, let alone the Russians.

In the book of American historian Victor Porfirevich Petrov, "Russians in stories America ”, published in Washington in 1988 year (Petrov is a descendant of white immigrants), this gap is filled.

“In the subsequent years of armed struggle (after the declaration of independence from England — BT), the revolutionary army of Washington was more than once on the verge of defeat. Many immigrants from Europe then assisted the young state with their military experience. There were Russian volunteers in the Washington Army, but very little information about them. Finding out their names and how many they were now difficult. The late American historian A.F. was engaged in painstaking searches for the names of Russian volunteers. Dolgopolov. In an article published in Native Dali, published in Los Angeles, he lists six Russian subjects who took part in the war. The author writes: “The article is the first of this kind, perhaps the beginning of a more serious and detailed work” on this topic. The list of A.F. Dolgopolov, of course, is far from complete. These are 6 famous Russian people:


1.Winter (Victor) von Rosenthal (1753 – 1829), an Estonian nobleman.

2. Rubenai, baltiets, officer of the Russian army.

3. F.V.Karzhavin (1745 – 1812), merchant, writer.

4. Korzukhin - traveler.

5.Karl Kist, apothecary from St. Petersburg.

6.Bobukh Zakhar Ivanovich from Revel. He served in the German regiment.

Of these people, the brightest person was, of course, Fedor Vasilievich Karzhavin.

He belonged to a rich Petersburg merchant family and received a brilliant European education at that time, he knew French perfectly. Perhaps the French influence on the formation of his personality can be explained by his further adventures in America and on the islands of the Caribbean.

First of all, we find him in Paris at the beginning of 1770, where (in 1774) he marries the maiden S. Rambour. In marriage, however, he did not find happiness: as he later wrote in his autobiography, his wife turned out to be “rather capricious.”

After parting with his wife, Karzhavin went to 1776, to look for happiness overseas - to the island of Martinique. So began the adventures and adventures of Karzhavin in the New World, which continued for 12 years, until 1788. He visited the United States several times - from May 1777 to 25 in January 1780, i.e. in the midst of war.

Due to the fact that France clearly sympathized with the rebel colonists in America, the French colony of Martinique became a very important base for supplying the rebels. Karzhavin, being a man with a commercial vein, decided to profit on these supplies. He himself wrote about his decision to go to America: “... wanting to double my capital, due to the critical circumstances of the Novoaglitsky trade, I entered into a partnership with one Creole (Mr. Lassere), who sent a large ship to America, put his sum into it and he himself went to 13 on the number of April 1777 of the year on that ship. ”


(Fedor Karzhavin)


Father Karzhavin wrote that on board the ship was a normal cargo: wine, molasses, salt ... and did not mention anything about military equipment for the rebels. However, in the same report, he noted that the ship was not exactly a “merchant”, he was well armed, and the shipowners themselves appointed him to be a “military man”. This message from Karzhavina confirms the Virginia Gazette: on May 16 of the year 1777, a ship from Martinique loaded with gunpowder arrived at the Virginia coast, weaponssalt

This first venture of Karzhavin was very dangerous. On the way, he had to take part in a naval battle between the English marque and the Philadelphia semi-merchant semi-caper. In the mist, Karzhavin’s ship managed to slip away from the British and safely reach the shores of Virginia.

22 of the month, from 1777-th to 1779 year, Karlavin spent in America, engaged in trade in various cities and making connections with major political figures of the latter-day republic. In the 1779 year, when Karzhavin lived in the house of Captain Laporte in Williamsberg (Virginia), he took an active part in the formation of a French military unit from the islanders in Martinique and San Domingo.

Despite the first success, the trading activity of Karzhavin was unsuccessful due to the effective blockade of the American coast by English privateers. In 1779, Karzhavin outfitted the ship, loaded it with “rich cargo” and set off on his way back to Martinique. As soon as the ship departed from the shores of Virginia, it was captured by the English marque. All the money invested by Karzhavin in the enterprise was lost.


Apparently, the loss of capital led to the fact that Karzhavin had to do in America, which he would have to, in particular, be a pharmacist. In one of the letters he wrote: "I lost three years, two ships and everything that I had in New England, more than 20 times during this time I risked my life." And with bitterness he added: "... remember that you are nothing more than an unhappy pharmacist, and give your medicine for the brave people who will avenge your enemies, the English, for your ruin."

One of the little-known pages of Karzhavin’s biography is the plan for sending it to the United States Congress with a special diplomatic mission to St. Petersburg.

It is known that Karzhavin was friendly with K. Bellini, a professor at the College of William and Mary, a close friend of Thomas Jefferson. Therefore, it is quite possible that Bellini, in conversation with Jefferson, proposed Karjavin's candidacy for this mission. Information on this subject is very scarce. Karzhavin himself wrote about this project to parents in Russia 1 September 1785: “Years ago 6 or 7 will be like I lived on the cost of the Virginia government of 6 months in Williamsberg with the intention of being sent to the Russian empress from the American Congress, with a public character while they sent Dr. Franklin to the king by the French plenipotentiary minister. But the circumstances of the military, some twists and turns in American affairs, remembering that I was in your disgrace and fear of Russian Minister Panin, if I, a Russian man, were sent to my empress in a public rank from a foreign crown and protech, caused me to prefer to return to Martinique on the French Fandant 74 gun ship. ”

The return to Martinique was not without incident: at the entrance to the harbor, the French ship had to fight its way through the line of English ships. Karzhavin writes: “... he boarded the ship commanded by the Marquis de Vodriol, on January 25, 1780 in Lesser York and 20 days later arrived in Martinique, having suffered a whole Anglican firing upon entering the harbor fleet».


With the end of the war in America, Karzhavin again returned to the United States and, as before, settled in Virginia. At first he lived in Smithfield, later settled in "the capital of Virginia, the city of Williamsberg." In his own words, “finally, when you made your way to Virginia, you did a doctorate there, merchant class, and was a translator of the Anglo-American language at the office of the French Consulate.”

Such famous persons as the future President of the United States, D. Madison, and one of the most enlightened Americans of the time, a professor at the College of William and Mary, D. Wise, were among Karvazhin’s virgin acquaintances.

Another Russian, Vetter (Victor) von Rosenthal in 1775, at the age of 22 years, left Russia for America to join the ranks of the revolutionary army. His military career was a success: he received the rank of major and became an adjutant of J. Jackson and even met J. Washington. Von Rosenthal was awarded the Order of Cincinnati. After the end of the war, he returned to Russia, where he died in the 1829 year.

We will note another Russian who passed through incredible trials in the same years and came to America not by his will and not through his own fault. This is a Nizhny Novgorod tradesman, a merchant of the 2 Guild, Vasily Baranshchikov, who by the will of fate was the victim of Danish slave owners who kidnapped him in Copenhagen in the year 1780 and sent him in chains to America. Baranshchikov was first a soldier of the Danish colonial troops, then a slave on the Spanish plantations of Puerto Rico. Tall, stately, he liked the general, the wife of the governor of Puerto Rico. She bought him from the plantation and made her a serf, kitchen guy.

In the end, he wants freedom (runs to the USA and fights there for a while - BT), gets a Spanish passport and, having entered the sailor for the Genoese brigantine, goes to Europe, closer to home. Near Algeria, 1, January 1784, the brigantine is attacked by Algerian pirates, and Basil becomes a slave in the city of Haifa, on the Palestinian coast, without any hope of liberation.


After a while he unexpectedly manages to escape on a Greek ship. The barashchiki commutes on this ship to Venice, where he seeks to obtain a Venetian passport. From Venice, he is trying to get to Russia via Istanbul, but he is stuck in the capital of the Ottoman Empire. For safety, while still considering ways to return to Russia, Baranshchikov, at the insistence of Greek friends, accepts Islam, the name Selim and becomes the Janissary of the Sultan's palace guard.

29 June 1785, he deserted, reached the Danube with danger to life, struggled to cross a wide river, guarded by Turkish guards, and a few days later he was on the bank of the Dniester. Again, with the help of kind people, this time Moldovans, he crossed the Dniester in the town of Soroka and ended up in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Several months passed before he finally managed to cross the Russian-Polish border near Kiev and return home after a forced seven-year absence.

Vasily Baranshchikov was a literate person and described his adventures, calling the book “The Unfortunate Adventures of Vasily Baranshchikov, a tradesman of Nizhny Novgorod, in three parts of the world: in America, Asia and Europe from 1780 to 1787 years”. It was published in 1787 year - in the year Baranshchikov returned and turned out to be very popular.


Such are the exploits and adventures of Russians in America during the War of Independence of the United States. The list is certainly not complete, and, probably, further historical research will reveal a number of still unknown names of Russians who lived in America in those years. ”

But, of course, in modern Russia, no one is interested in finding Russian heroes who have left their mark on American soil.
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  1. kush62
    kush62 27 July 2013 08: 09 New
    28
    The article is informative. But the first line is incorrect:
    From the very beginning of the birth of its statehood, the United States has linked friendly relations with Russia.

    We may have been friendly to her. Well, got what it is.
    1. T-100
      T-100 27 July 2013 11: 14 New
      16
      I’ll clarify a little
      Only in the twentieth century did the United States save Russia three times: at first from a monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the countryside), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year periods; finally, by Lend-Lease during the Second World War.

      For all this was paid in Russian gold, the Yankees will never give anything for free. And Lend-Lease was good only during the period with 1941-1942, then our factories deployed beyond the Urals gave everything that was needed.
      1. Russian
        Russian 27 July 2013 11: 24 New
        26
        Russian propaganda does not stop for a moment in anti-American hysteria, and does not even suspect how absurd its position looks. The United States and Russia have always had friendly relations, and the 95% of this friendship came from the American side. Only in one twentieth century, the United States saved Russia three times: first from the monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the village), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year plans; at last - by lend-lease in the Second World War. America could save our country for the fourth time — apparently, definitively, by introducing it into a common European home, but immediately after the end of the Great Patriotic War Stalin refused to adopt the Marshall Plan.

        I haven’t read more delirium for a long time! An article by the State Department or something ordered? I'm generally surprised that someone else has put the pluses. This deceitful, cunning people, which originates from fugitive criminals, destroyed its entire history and oppressed other peoples. This RUSSIA first met them, helping in the war for independence and selling Alaska for next to nothing, and after that they made us the enemy number 1. What is called from good, they are not looking for good, God is their judge, but the sooner the USA and England disappear from the face Earth, the better it will be for all of humanity!
        1. 225chay
          225chay 27 July 2013 21: 44 New
          +2
          Quote: р_у_с_с_к_и_й
          I haven’t read more delirium for a long time! An article by the State Department or something ordered?

          Russia seems to be the first to recognize the independence of the USA from small Britain and, in my opinion, helped much more.
          And now it is thought that this Yakistan ugly country was completely recognized in vain.
          How many more creatures will we drink blood? How many more nasty things will they do? And do not say that they want us happiness. I mean their mercantile government.
          By the way, I have nothing against the common people
      2. Mikado
        Mikado 27 July 2013 20: 08 New
        +3
        Quote: T-100
        For all this, it was paid with Russian gold


        for all this was paid with Russian blood.
      3. Aleksey94
        Aleksey94 27 July 2013 21: 06 New
        +1
        And Lend-Lease was not just a gesture of goodwill. Roosevelt, after all, as he said about Lend-Lease, “If my neighbor’s house lights up, so that the fire does not spread to my house, I will lend him a hose.” So, the Americans acted exclusively in their own interests.
        And the ARA organization in Russia acted just like commercial, donated bread and medicines which were the costs of the enrichment process.
        1. Ivan.
          Ivan. 27 July 2013 22: 19 New
          0
          Quote: Aleksey94
          And Lend-Lease was not just a gesture of goodwill. Roosevelt, after all, as he said about Lend-Lease, “If my neighbor’s house lights up, so that the fire does not spread to my house, I will lend him a hose.” So, the Americans acted exclusively in their own interests.
          And the ARA organization in Russia acted just like commercial, donated bread and medicines which were the costs of the enrichment process.

          This is not the case. The fact is that those well-known, longing for absolute power, having taken control of England, the United States and planning to make a freshly baked state for a small nation, needed a bloodless war of both empires that interfered with their plans (+ the maximum number of countries to draw in) and any of them won for them unacceptable. From here comes the entire foreign policy of the United States and England before the war, during and after. They both armed and pitted.
      4. Rubik
        Rubik 31 July 2013 00: 11 New
        0
        There was no Russian gold. Russia paid off only 1% of the debt. Moreover, you do not read the terms of the lend-lease, only the surviving equipment was subject to payment. The fact that the Germans destroyed was not subject to payment.
      5. clidon
        clidon 7 September 2013 15: 37 New
        0
        ARA worked for free. Military land lease was free
    2. Interface
      Interface 27 July 2013 14: 35 New
      +7
      Russia supported the rebels only because ALL, without exception, the European powers wanted to weaken the then hegemonic England, and not because, they say, we had a “rush of friendship”.
  2. omsbon
    omsbon 27 July 2013 08: 19 New
    15
    Only in the twentieth century did the United States save Russia three times: at first from a monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the countryside), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year periods; finally, by Lend-Lease during the Second World War.

    I would like to remind the afftor of this opus that for all the help listed, Russia paid in BLOOD and GOLD!
    1. BARKAS
      BARKAS 27 July 2013 09: 49 New
      13
      In general, the ARA was also famous for various scams with the purchase of gold and other values ​​from a starving population and more than paid for its activities, in addition, most of the personnel were military personnel who carried out intelligence activities.
      1. Rider
        Rider 27 July 2013 13: 27 New
        +3
        Quote: BARKAS
        In general, the ARA became famous also for various scams with the purchase of gold and other valuables from other hungry people and


        But can I have a closer look?
        not that I would not believe you (the Yankees are still those "philanthropists")
        but for the sake of self-education.
        1. BARKAS
          BARKAS 27 July 2013 16: 31 New
          +8
          Quote: Rider
          But can I have a closer look?

          The note by the head of the Information Department of the INO VChK J. Zalin dated January 26 1922 indicated that

          "The results of systematic monitoring of the activities of" ARA "promptly urgently take measures that, without interfering with the fight against hunger, could eliminate everything that threatens the interests of the RSFSR in this organization. The American personnel are selected for the most part from the military and intelligence, of whom many know Russian was in Russia either in pre-revolutionary times, or in the White Guard armies of Kolchak, Denikin, Yudenich and Poland (Gavard and Fox - at Kolchak, Torner - at Yudenich, Gregg and Fink - in Poland, etc.).
          Americans do not hide their hatred of the Soviets (anti-Soviet agitation in conversations with peasants - Dr. Golder, the destruction of portraits of Lenin and Trotsky in the dining room - Thompson, toasts for the restoration of the past - Gofstr, talk about the near end of the Bolsheviks, etc.).

          To work in its organs, the ARA invites former white officers, of bourgeois and aristocratic origin, subjects of the border states and, thus, rallies and concentrates elements hostile to the Soviet authorities (in the Samara branch - officers who took part in the Czech-Slovak uprising; Petrograd - Yudenichsky ; in Kazan - the Kolchakovskys; in Moscow - Princess Mansurova, Princess Naryshkina, Princess Kurakina, Countess Tolstaya, Baroness Shefler, Protopopova, etc.).

          ARA employees, both Americans and those who were recruited here, taking advantage of the privileges granted to them, the first by contract, the second by our indecision, are engaged in rabid speculation with impunity, exporting large-scale valuables from the RSFSR. Being engaged in espionage, organizing and scattering a wide network throughout Russia, the ARA tends to become more and more widespread, trying to cover the entire territory of the RSFSR with a continuous ring along the outskirts and borders (Petrograd, Vitebsk, Minsk, Gomel, Zhitomir, Kiev, Odessa, Novorossiysk, Kharkov , Orenburg, Ufa, etc.).
  3. SPBOBL
    SPBOBL 27 July 2013 08: 37 New
    +6
    And in my opinion, due to unceremonious behavior ... it's time to calm the creatures of nuclear weapons.
  4. Slevinst
    Slevinst 27 July 2013 09: 19 New
    12
    Russian propaganda does not stop for a moment in anti-American hysteria, and does not even suspect how absurd its position looks. The United States and Russia have always had friendly relations, and the 95% of this friendship came from the American side. Only in one twentieth century, the United States saved Russia three times: first from the monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the village), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year plans; at last - by lend-lease in the Second World War. America could save our country for the fourth time — apparently, definitively, by introducing it into a common European home, but immediately after the end of the Great Patriotic War Stalin refused to adopt the Marshall Plan.

    After this paragraph, my desire to read further disappeared. I would rephrase that the United States has always tried to subjugate Russia and tried to make it a carrot because they knew what the whip was and could get it themselves. Never in my life will I believe in the good relations of the USA with Russia
    1. Ivan.
      Ivan. 27 July 2013 22: 42 New
      0
      Quote: Slevinst
      After this paragraph, my desire to read further disappeared. I would rephrase that the United States has always tried to subjugate Russia and tried to make it a carrot because they knew what the whip was and could get it themselves. Never in my life will I believe in the good relations of the USA with Russia

      It disappeared completely, went down to the source and caught the eye of the titles of the articles “Russia after Navalny”, “The deadliest US soldier: 2746 Iraqis killed by him”, “Russia expects the end of the world predicted by Rasputin”, etc., looked at the number cons article and finally convinced that reading this article, vomit does not respect yourself. The question is, what kind of xxx put her here? Why is it allowed to publish anonymous articles without an indication of at least the publisher? And this is not the first time I have seen this (henceforth, the editorial board of the Interpreter Blog is obligated to transfer 10% of gratitude payments from its readers to help political prisoners. We will publish a report on these funds.)
  5. George
    George 27 July 2013 10: 24 New
    +5
    But, of course, in modern Russia, no one is interested in finding Russian heroes who have left their mark on American soil.

    Lies. The Yankees themselves blur their eyes to their citizens, making us enemies. And the author clearly got excited about saving us with America.
    Russia at least twice saved the states, and at times when there was a question about the very existence of a new state.
    V. Pikul's miniature "Flight of the Bumblebee" perfectly reflects the daring raid of the Russian fleet, thanks to the simple Yankees:"Each Yankee considered it necessary to stop us, raise his right hand and call her" Russia ", then, raising his left, call her" America ", put both hands together in a clap, then shake the images of the Russian-American union with them for the whole fortress.")(I quote Hippolytus Tchaikovsky).
    Or here is an episode (ibid.):
    To stop partying, almost inevitable in ports with a friendly population, Lesovsky issued an order: to hang all those who were late from the shore on masts. The order had disastrous consequences, for honest sailors, who did not even think of leaving their homeland, were afraid to return to the ships. Hippolytus Tchaikovsky recalled that an elderly boatswain often came to the marina, who did not know what to do now - to be hanged or to stay in America. "Having a wife and a child in Kronstadt, he chose the latter and wept bitterly, hugging his countrymen, saying goodbye to them forever and ever." But one of our sailors, not appearing on time for the ship, acted more cunningly. He enlisted in the Lincoln Potomac Army, was captured by the Southerners, escaped from captivity, again fought against slavery, was wounded, cured, received a medal from the hands of General Grant himself, and he managed to do all this in record time - in just one month. Then he showed up on his ship, reporting to Admiral Lesovsky:

    - He walked well. And now .., well, hang up! Lesovsky in front of everyone kissed a guy:

    - I'll hang it! "George" on your neck ...
  6. Cap
    Cap 27 July 2013 11: 53 New
    10
    Well, yes, America saved us, yeah ...
    Especially during the defense of Sevastopol from the united army of Europe, the Americans “saved” Russia by threatening to simply occupy Alaska if we did not sell it at the price that they deign to give.
    Or intervention during the civil war, when in the Far East they dealt with the local population no worse than with the Indians during the "conquest of the Wild West"
    And from 1985 to the present ...
    Damn, they just want to kiss their hands for salvation! Chopping them off in the ass ...
    1. George
      George 27 July 2013 12: 28 New
      +4
      Quote: Cap
      Well, yes, America saved us, yeah ...
      Especially during the defense of Sevastopol from the united army of Europe, the Americans “saved” Russia by threatening to simply occupy Alaska if we did not sell it at the price that they deign to give.

      Please expand your statement in more detail, maybe I didn’t get it.
      I was looking for traces of friendship between our countries. And he found only (not counting World War II) the support of Russia by the states in the Crimean War.
      ... that when Russia defended itself against the Anglo-French attack in 1853-56. ("Crimean War"), the United States was the only world power that retained friendship with Russia. Moreover, American volunteers came to help Russia, including about 30 surgeons. When Sevastopol fell and the triumphant French and British arranged a banquet in San Francisco on this occasion, not one of the Americans invited to it came, and a furious crowd sympathetic to Russia defeated the pavilion, where the French and British feasted.
      http://muzey-factov.ru/tag/crimean-war
      1. Cristall
        Cristall 28 July 2013 13: 50 New
        0
        In the novel "Sevastopol Strada" there was an interesting nuance, it was rumored that Konstantin was in a hurry to help the besieged city with the American fleet. In general, relations until 17 were different. And the war of independence itself is approved by Russian society (that is, St. Petersburg)
        As for the paragraphs about selfless help in the 20th century. I think I already saw it somewhere. In descriptions of articles for Americans in America about strange Russia. Like, we named them. but they refuse, and even such ...
        What is strange and where does the relationship in those days and the relationship that we had developed in the 20th century? Relations with England have become much more uniform. But there are few articles where England has "helped" the whole history of Russia.
        Something is wrong in this article with conclusions, but it’s not bad.
    2. family
      family tree 27 July 2013 18: 48 New
      +3
      Quote: Cap
      Especially during the defense of Sevastopol from the united army of Europe, the Americans “saved” Russia by threatening to simply occupy Alaska if we did not sell it at the price that they deign to give.

      The first proposal for the sale of Alaska came from Russia in 1853. Before the Crimean War. Alaska was sold in 1867, 11 years after the end of the Crimean War. In 1861, Russia supported the legitimate US government in the war of the North and the South. In 1863, during the uprising in Poland, the United States supported Russia, as opposed to England, France and Austria-Hungary. Chet does not agree with the threats of occupation request Relations changed later, after the Bolsheviks came to power.
  7. pinecone
    pinecone 27 July 2013 12: 28 New
    +4
    Rebels, volunteers ... All this is so, but in fact the troops of the expeditionary force of royal France won the war for the independence of the North American colonies.
    1. Rider
      Rider 27 July 2013 13: 30 New
      +3
      Quote: pinecone
      All this is true, but in fact the troops of the expeditionary corps of royal France won the war for the independence of the North American colonies.


      in "gratitude" for this, the Yankees took Louisiana from the French.

      such is lyubof.
  8. Taidrem
    Taidrem 27 July 2013 12: 52 New
    +5
    Damn what kind of nonsense !!! The American revolution began only because the American governors or governors do not remember did not want to pay tithing, namely, they evaded taxes and came up with a revolution. and when Britain won, she wanted to take them into a blockade, and then our empress said do it, we will declare war on you, and during the American Civil War, our marines from Russia helped them, and our fleet took it into blockade, thereby protecting it from the intervention of European states that they wanted to intervene in the conflict on the side of the confederation, for some reason no one remembers this. so who saved whom ???
  9. fzr1000
    fzr1000 27 July 2013 14: 09 New
    +2
    Ours also participated in the North-South war.
  10. nnz226
    nnz226 27 July 2013 14: 11 New
    +3
    It was Russia that saved the United States more than once: in the war for "independence", not allowing the blockade of the United States by the British to be carried out, in the war of the north and south, sending squadrons to the US shores, and driving off the fleet of small Britons. In 1929-30, buying equipment of factories for gold and saving hundreds of US enterprises from ruining into a great depression. in 1945, smashing the Kwantung army into dust, giving am an opportunity to land without loss on the main islands of Japan, without it losses were planned up to 2-3-x million AI when landing on the islands.
  11. pinecone
    pinecone 27 July 2013 14: 33 New
    +3
    Quote: Rider
    Quote: pinecone
    All this is true, but in fact the troops of the expeditionary corps of royal France won the war for the independence of the North American colonies.


    in "gratitude" for this, the Yankees took Louisiana from the French.

    such is lyubof.


    Louisiana was sold to the Americans by Napoleon in 1803.

    Pictured is the ceremony of transferring Louisiana territory to the United States. New Orleans. March 10, 1804.
  12. smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 27 July 2013 15: 02 New
    +9
    Russian propaganda does not stop for a moment in anti-American hysteria, and does not even suspect how absurd its position looks. The United States and Russia have always had friendly relations, and the 95% of this friendship came from the American side. Only in one twentieth century, the United States saved Russia three times: first from the monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the village), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year plans; at last - by lend-lease in the Second World War. America could save our country for the fourth time — apparently, definitively, by introducing it into a common European home, but immediately after the end of the Great Patriotic War Stalin refused to adopt the Marshall Plan.

    I didn’t read more nonsense, Petrosyan and Zadornov are resting. The ARA became famous for buying cheap art and icons from starving jewelry, while gold and blood paid for building industrial power and Lend-Lease. And here is what our “friends” Americans did during their occupation of the Far East and North during the Civil War:
    “... capturing the peasants I. Gonevchuk, S. Gorshkov, P. Oparin and Z. Murashko, the Americans buried them alive for contact with local partisans. And the partisan’s wife E. Boychuk dealt with as follows: they punctured the body with bayonets and drowned in a garbage pit. The peasant Bochkarev was unrecognizably mutilated with bayonets and knives: “the nose, lips, ears were cut off, the jaw was broken out, the face and eyes were punched with bayonets, the whole body was cut up.” Partisan N. Myasnikov was tortured in the same brutal manner by Sviyagino, who, according to eyewitness testimony, "first the ears were chopped off, then the nose, arms, legs, chopped alive into pieces."

    "Interventors surrounded Little Cape and opened hurricane fire around the village. Having learned that the partisans were not there, the Americans became bolder, broke into it, burned the school. They flogged atrociously everyone who fell into their arm. The farmer Cherevatov, like many others, had to be taken home bloody, unconscious. The brutal oppression was repaired by the American infantrymen in the villages of Knevichi, Krolevets and other settlements. In front of everyone, the American officer shot several bullets into the head of the wounded boy Vasily Shemyakin. "

    “A 23-year-old citizen K. was brutally raped by a group of American soldiers in Sedanka. Facts of violence against women and girls by stallions in the form of the US Army were repeatedly recorded in other parts of Vladivostok and Primorye. Obviously, damsels of easy virtue, which then, as now, were By the way, one of the "priestesses of love", who "awarded" several American "cowboys" with a bad illness, was somehow found killed in Prudova Street (where the Komsomolets movie theater now stands) with five revolving bullets in body".

    Well and so on, well, here are a few lines from the diary of the colonel of this very expeditionary force Morrow, who laments that his poor soldiers ... "could not sleep without killing anyone that day. When our soldiers took the Russians to captured, they drove them to the Andriyanovka station, where the wagons were unloaded, the prisoners were led to huge pits, in which they were shot from machine guns. " "The most memorable" for Colonel Morrow was the day "when 1600 people were delivered in 53 wagons."
    Nothing like. Article minus. Yours faithfully! hi
    1. omsbon
      omsbon 27 July 2013 18: 35 New
      +4
      Quote: smiths xnumx
      , the prisoners were led to the huge pits, in which they were shot with machine guns. "The most memorable day for Colonel Morrow was the day" when 1600 people were delivered in 53 wagons ".

      Well done against the sheep, and against the well done the sheep himself!
      Amer has always fought well against unarmed, obviously weak and with an overwhelming numerical superiority in all wars and conflicts.
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 27 July 2013 20: 18 New
      +3
      I am glad that our debt did not remain

      "An easy whistle through the woods - the Americans go. The guys go wherever: they are healthy, their sleeves are rolled up, their helmets are thrown behind their backs. Their legs are long and they walk well. They walk lightly.
      - Hell! I like it! .. - they say.
      One would not like it: the old tract from Onega, which now goes directly to the railway, reveals its beauties at every turn ... Forest, forest, forest.
      “Almost like overseas,” the soldiers are talking. “Look, Joe, that sounds like Orinoco.” And even squirrels are jumping, as we have ... And pines, pines, pines!
      Red crimson reflections on the trunks of centuries-old pines. Strong resinous spirit, from which the legs walk even more vigorously. Easy whistling through the forest - there are five hundred guys, young and healthy. Mossy stomp stomp the strong boots. The branches spit on the face - spiky, and the needles smell so, smell so good, so I want to live ...
      Five hundred Americans entered the forests somewhere beyond Onega.
      Nobody ever saw them again. Five hundred young American guys disappeared as if their mother had never given birth. Not a trace on the moss pillows (mosses straightened springy), not a single notch on a tree, not a scrap of paper, not even an empty can of tinned food ... There were five hundred of them!
      Exactly five hundred, I tell you. Half a thousand.
      They were awaited - on Plesetskaya, where burnt locomotives were roaring, where the departing barriers of the red fighters were firing. They were expected - even in Onega, thinking that they had lost their way and would get out of the forest at least back. No, - and when the scout motorcyclists drove along the highway, they also did not find anyone: the tract was completely empty.
      “Where are these five hundred?” - asked at the headquarters.
      “Swamps, sir.”
      - Swamp - maybe. But there is no such swamp from which at least one out of five hundred would not get out ...
      It was a wonderful autumn day when they left Onega along an ancient highway, and the forest concealed so many attractive charms for them. A slight whistle through the forest - that’s all that squirrels heard. They were very young, these five hundred. And not one - not one! - never returned overseas.
      So this war began. On the young Northern Front, the Red Army had not yet been created. But there were people - of a Susanin nature, and we completely agree.
      Yes, a swamp ... But you need to know where such a swamp that sucks, five hundred at once into the sailing pad ...
      I do not know what was written then in newspapers overseas about this tragedy in Russian forests. But even we Russians still do not know where this swamp is hidden and what is the name of the man who became the new Soviet Susanin!
      Easy whistling through the woods - these are the Americans.
      Five hundred more ... Come on, come on! Have fun guys ...
      You came later than everyone else - you are the first to leave here. "
      1. omsbon
        omsbon 27 July 2013 22: 45 New
        0
        Quote: Mikado
        Easy whistling through the woods - these are the Americans.
        Five hundred more ... Come on, come on! Walk more fun guys

        Igor, do you work in the Onega-service travel agency? Are you attracting star-striped tourists? For a 500 baseball cap party?
        Success in work and prosperity of your company!
  13. LENINGRADE
    LENINGRADE 27 July 2013 15: 48 New
    +4
    I had to re-read some phrases 2 times, I thought it was some kind of irony!
  14. sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 27 July 2013 15: 48 New
    +5
    Friendly relations ??? From the USA ???? Come on...
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. vlad_krimean
    vlad_krimean 27 July 2013 17: 00 New
    +3
    Let it be known to the author, the British drowned the ships of all countries, without exception, who were suspected of trade assistance to America. After Catherine the Second (may she have a blessed memory) issued a decree that the British would drown when the latter attacked merchant ships, to which many countries joined, the attacks that traded with America ceased, and the states received the necessary trade assistance, if only she kirdyk would be. And about the help of Russia, the Americans always provided it for gold and then on unfavorable conditions. So what is this help ??? This is a dumb baryzhestvo.
  17. 0255
    0255 27 July 2013 17: 15 New
    +2
    During the American Civil War, Russia helped fight the British slave owners, and the British were never friends for Russia. But in the 20th century, the United States became enemies for us, crushing Britain under itself. After 1945, the “Great” Churchill lost ground to the Americans.
    It would be better if Russia conquered the USA then, then in the 20th century North Koreans, Vietnamese, Panamanians, Serbs and many more would have lived more calmly
    1. datur
      datur 27 July 2013 18: 16 New
      0
      [quote = 0255] during the American Civil War, Russia helped fight the British slave owners, and the British were never friends for Russia. But in the 20th century, the United States became enemies for us, crushing Britain under itself. After 1945, the “Great” Churchill lost ground to the Americans.
      It would be better if Russia conquered the United States then, then in the 20th century North Koreans, Vietnamese, Panamanians, Serbs, and many more would have lived calmer --- TOLI FAST FOOD TOLI sniffed --- !! wink choose !!! wink
  18. Volodya Sibiryak
    Volodya Sibiryak 27 July 2013 17: 18 New
    +2
    Delusions of Americanophile.
  19. pensioner
    pensioner 27 July 2013 18: 12 New
    +3
    But, of course, in modern Russia, no one is interested in finding Russian heroes who have left their mark on American soil.
    Well, why? Many Russians participated in the scientific, cultural, military life of America. And they took part with dignity. But do the Americans themselves remember this?
  20. datur
    datur 27 July 2013 18: 14 New
    +2
    I think so --- if I would have known, then hell would have helped the ENGLISH !!!!!
  21. Alexandr1973
    Alexandr1973 27 July 2013 18: 18 New
    -24
    Shovel cattle as always went to shit because of a normal and truthful article.
    1. Cap
      Cap 27 July 2013 18: 31 New
      +6
      What is the truth? What was their "disinterested" help manifested in? When? The article was written clearly inadequate. Because he either believes in the nonsense that he wrote, or believes that someone else will believe in him.
      And the Anglo-American cattle is not fucking generally appear in a decent society.
    2. kush62
      kush62 27 July 2013 19: 06 New
      +6
      remark: Scoop cattle, as always, went to shit because of a normal and truthful article.

      Well no. This is a corrupt swamp trying to amer ass lick !!!
    3. family
      family tree 27 July 2013 19: 07 New
      +5
      Quote: Alexandr1973
      Shovel cattle as always went to shit because of a normal and truthful article.

      In this "true" article, lies rushing from the beginning of the second paragraph
    4. Homo
      Homo 27 July 2013 19: 15 New
      +7
      Quote: Alexandr1973
      Shovel cattle as always went to shit because of a normal and truthful article.

      You are the real g ... oh, without a clan and tribe! Even your favorite Americans are proud of the times when they destroyed the Indians and were slaveholders. And you crap 70 years of growth and forward movement, the time when we were a great power !!!
      PS Why didn’t I be able to write the words b.y.d.o. and d.e.r.m.o (without dots) ???
    5. Yurban
      Yurban 27 July 2013 20: 30 New
      +3
      Alexander 1973, you are very gray, I will tactfully keep silent about the rest.
    6. serezhasoldatow
      serezhasoldatow 28 July 2013 09: 57 New
      0
      I will not tire of repeating, trashy you human
  22. datur
    datur 27 July 2013 18: 21 New
    +2
    in vain. it was necessary to land our marine corps !! and show a little bit to the English !!!
  23. The centurion
    The centurion 27 July 2013 18: 48 New
    +6
    Voting on this (possibly provocative) article convincingly shows: we Russians, as a people, are not US satellites and will never be with them, although (as it doesn’t seem strange) we could well be. Comments are relevant here. At the end of 80, the beginning of 90, an incredible surge of Americanism and difficult to explain piety in front of the West occurred in the popular consciousness of the USSR. From the height of the years I have experienced, I can’t even clearly explain to myself the gnoseology of this phenomenon and will simply refer to the symptoms of mass psychosis. In this case, it does not matter. It is important that America and the West have missed this unique chance, namely, against the background of mass reverence, to make the entire post-Soviet space, including Russia, its satellite. Instead, they declared the USSR defeated, and its people had to kneel down, sprinkle ashes on their heads and together begin to lick the West in the ass, as the Germans and the Japanese once did. But the Russians, with the exception of Vlasovites and compradors, did not want to do this, if only because they were not defeated, they were simply betrayed. The Americans did not understand that even then, Russia was the only country in the world capable of destroying the United States, although at the cost of its own life. But god with them, it is their mistake, for which they will have to pay dearly. And in the most direct, and not figuratively, gold and banknotes. Since they didn’t have enough sense then to get an alliance and friendship with Russia by kindness and affection, they would have to try to buy it, but not the fact that we are stormy.
  24. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 27 July 2013 22: 44 New
    0
    The article is nonsense. In fact, the United States owes this to Russia by the very fact of its existence, namely, the "Declaration on Armed Neutrality" by Catherine II. That was the first of the Caribbean Crises. And the Americans are understating the importance of Russians in US history, because they have all the documents. I have long read an article about a Cossack detachment in the war for US independence. And this is more than 6 people. It is unclear how this article was missed here. Even the author is not specified.
  25. Betahon
    Betahon 27 July 2013 23: 38 New
    0
    I agree with Sergey Medvedev! The most important fact of Russia's participation in the preservation of the 13 United States of America from the English Empire is being hushed up! Only the Russian squadron, which stood in the channel and covered the coast, saved the emerging young country! By the way, this fact is deliberately overwritten by the American side!
  26. RUR
    RUR 28 July 2013 00: 38 New
    -8
    Fermented and lapotny patriots should be familiarized with:
    Marshal Zhukov in post-war conversations said:
    Now they say that the Allies never helped us ... But it cannot be denied that the Americans drove so many materials without which we could not build up our reserves and could not continue the war ... We did not have explosives, gunpowder. There was nothing to equip rifle cartridges. The Americans really helped us out with gunpowder, explosives. And how much they drove us to sheet steel! How could we quickly set up tank production if it weren’t for American steel help? And now they present the matter in such a way that we had all of this in abundance.
    ... Without American trucks, we would have nothing to drag our artillery.

    - From the report of the chairman of the KGB V. Semichastny to N. S. Khrushchev; signature stamp “top secret” [19]

    without “ovs” brave Eurasian warriors would not have won,
    I'm not talking about the fact that the Allies shared the data received
    when decrypting ENIGMA, but for this I must say thanks to the Polish and British decryptors who are hated by Poland and Britain (sorry, small Britain) and serious historians believe that these Enigmas reduced the war from 2 to 4 years
    1. studentmati
      studentmati 28 July 2013 00: 54 New
      0
      I completely agree with you, the support was tremendous. hi
      But it is worth paying attention that this support was primarily aimed at the need to stop the advancement of Nazism in the territory of the states that provide this assistance. Help was stopped when it became apparent that the USSR would reach the Atlantic ... stop
    2. LENINGRADE
      LENINGRADE 29 July 2013 00: 31 New
      -1
      what kind of deer ??? !!!
    3. LENINGRADE
      LENINGRADE 29 July 2013 00: 32 New
      0
      "Marshal Zhukov in post-war conversations said," apparently to YOU ​​personally !!!
  27. chenia
    chenia 28 July 2013 00: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Alexandr1973
    Shovel cattle as always went to shit because of a normal and truthful article.


    Liberaratic mucus stiffened, laying n \ e \ n \ dosovskaya.
  28. pinecone
    pinecone 28 July 2013 08: 18 New
    +2
    Quote: RUR

    I'm not talking about the fact that the Allies shared the data received
    when decrypting ENIGMA, but for this I must say thanks to the Polish and British decryptors who are hated by Poland and Britain (sorry, small Britain) and serious historians believe that these Enigmas reduced the war from 2 to 4 years


    For an example of how the allies shared intelligence with the Soviet command, see an excerpt from Stalin’s letter to Churchill on April 7, 1945.
    3. Judge for yourself. In February of this year, General Marshall gave a number of important messages to the General Staff of the Soviet troops, where, on the basis of his data, he warned the Russians that in March there would be two serious German counterattacks on the eastern front, of which one would be sent from Pomerania to Thorn, and the other is from the Moravsk region of Ostrava to Lodz. In fact, however, it turned out that the main blow of the Germans was being prepared and carried out not in the areas indicated above, but in a completely different area, namely in the area of ​​Lake Balaton, southwest of Budapest. As you know now, in this area the Germans gathered up to 35 divisions, including 11 tank divisions. This was one of the most serious attacks during the war, with such a large concentration of tank forces. Marshal Tolbukhin managed to avoid a catastrophe and then defeated the Germans completely, among other things because my informants revealed, though with some delay, this plan of the main blow of the Germans and immediately warned Marshal Tolbukhin about it.
    1. RUR
      RUR 28 July 2013 23: 58 New
      0
      Enigma was ruled by the British and American Marshall
  29. serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 28 July 2013 10: 00 New
    0
    The beginning of the article left an ugly sediment in the soul. Comments are beyond praise, except ...
  30. klyka1960
    klyka1960 28 July 2013 10: 39 New
    0
    The author has some strange vision of history. It’s the opposite ....
  31. sonik-007
    sonik-007 28 July 2013 11: 22 New
    0
    Quote: kush62
    Only in the twentieth century did the United States save Russia three times: first, from a monstrous famine in the Volga region (the ARA organization supplied not only bread to the starving, but also medicines, and also organized infrastructure in the countryside), then - by building industrial power in the first and second five-year periods; finally, by Lend-Lease during the Second World War. America could save our country for the fourth time - apparently, finally, introducing it into a pan-European home, but immediately after the end of the Second World War, Stalin refused to accept the Marshall Plan.


    Ahahah, neighing from the heart! laughing

    All this "kindness" was ultimately beneficial only to the US. You probably forgot what exactly because of loans \ Lend-Lease \ prod. the help that they provided us they rose after the second world war?

    And apparently forgot that de jure our allies were in no hurry to open a second front?
    Now they are written in "+" that they bought off their duties by airplanes and machine guns with stew?

    The most valuable resource is people. They then saved them.

    He didn’t read further nonsense, because he would have burst with obscenities at these information slops.
    1. RUR
      RUR 29 July 2013 00: 30 New
      +1
      And apparently forgot that de jure our allies were in no hurry to open a second front?

      "Our" allies are actually more involuntarily allies.
      Britain is an ally of Poland because of Poland. Britain entered the war and the United States entered the war (in Europe) because of Britain.
      Suzniki remembered Soviet assistance to Nazi Germany
      fuel and ammunition in 1940, when Britain and France
      They tried to stop the Germans. (Britain Dahé considered the possibility of bombing Baku) The Soviet attack on Poland on September 11, 1939 was not a secret either. Surprising that
      The Russians make themselves knights (sort of Eurasian with Mogh) with the Ngol code of honor
      1. Cap
        Cap 30 July 2013 19: 46 New
        +1
        And who continued to supply Nazi Germany with raw materials even after 41 years? Not amers? Who, during the war, invested money in the German economy? Not amerskie and arrogant bankers?
        Who set the ultimatum of the USSR when Stalin asked for a corridor to defend Czechoslovakia in the 38th? Not the Psheks? And didn’t they, under the guise of a war, carry out a military operation and seized a piece of territory from Czechoslovakia?
        So who started the 2nd world? USSR and Germany, as we are trying to suggest, or Poland and Germany with the support of England?
        And that the USSR was to follow the lead of England and start the war with Germany back in the 39th? so that unharmed England and the United States finish off the USSR?
        Churchill himself wrote in his memoirs that Stalin, signing a pact with Hitler, acted as a wise politician.
        Or do you want to present to Stalin the return of part of the territory of the Russian Empire?
        The impudent people were preparing for the bombing of Baku, so who is the aggressor here?
        How many times has the Red Army been forced to launch unprepared attacks to save our grief allies in the Ardennes and grief rebels in Warsaw?
        We paid with our lives своих soldiers for their worthless lives. And they landed in Normandy with only one purpose - to prevent the Red Army from liberating all of Europe, and not to help defeat the enemy.
        And it was our allies who prepared a separate peace with the Nazis for the further struggle with the USSR.
        So brazenly-Ssak "knights" who bought their nobility for money acquired by piracy and robbery of the colonies, can go in the woods
        1. RUR
          RUR 31 July 2013 01: 38 New
          -1
          "Who continued to supply Nazi Germany with raw materials even after 41 years? Not amers? Who during the war also invested money in the German economy? Not amers and arrogant bankers?"

          I'm not going to justify the allies here, but the scale
          aid of the USSR and Germany are not comparable

          “Who set the ultimatum of the USSR when Stalin asked for a corridor to defend Czechoslovakia in the 38th? Not the Psheks? And weren't they, under the guise of, conducting a military operation and seizing a piece of territory from Czechoslovakia?
          So who started the 2nd world? USSR and Germany, as we are trying to suggest, or Poland and Germany with the support of England? "

          You’d better try to find out how the region (namely the district), predominantly populated by Poles, became part of Czechoslovakia, I’m sure that in your opinion this is the eternal Zeil Chekhov laughing Until the Second World War, Poland never recognized the territory's entry into Czechoslovakia and made it a secret. And the USSR recognized the borders of Poland after the Riga Peace of 2.

          "And that the USSR had to follow the lead of England and start the war with Germany in the 39th? So that then unharmed England and the USA would finish off the USSR?

          Why not ? After all, until 1939 the USSR was a ball so brave and courageous fighter against Fascism (in the press and Spain) and the hegemony of Germany. But after the signing of the Molotov Ribbentropp pact
          and secret protocols to him, even newspaper criticism of Germany disappeared. Verbiage is obtained. T
          So why not fight the Germans in 1939?
          There is no point in spreading about the defense of Czechoslovakia - this was one verbiage.

          "Or do you want to present to Stalin the return of part of the territory of the Russian Empire?
          The impudent people were preparing for the bombing of Baku, so who is the aggressor here? "

          The USSR was not the legal successor of the Russian Empire and, I repeat, the USSR recognized the borders of Poland (Another verbiage) The instigator and accomplice of aggression can be bombed

          "Churchill himself wrote in his memoirs that Stalin, signing a pact with Hitler, acted as a wise politician."
          Give a link to an authoritative source (page, chapter, etc., otherwise another verbiage will turn out)

          (I’m not talking about you, but about Churchill, if you give a link, but if you don’t, you might get the impression that he was not a different person) he just doesn’t understand that the pact opened up the possibility for Germany to start a war

          “How many times has the Red Army been forced to launch unprepared attacks to save our grief allies in the Ardennes and grief rebels in Warsaw?”
          "
          WHAT HAS THE RED ARMY HELPED TO RISE IN WARSAW?

          The Kyrgyz Republic slowed down in Prague (a suburb of Warsaw separated from the actual Warsaw Vistula) and watched with interest the suppression of the uprising in Warsaw itself


          Summary: meanness and treachery were enough for both the West and the USSR
  32. Nikaviz
    Nikaviz 28 July 2013 13: 33 New
    0
    Check for lice ..... wassat
  33. Lavr75
    Lavr75 28 July 2013 23: 37 New
    0
    Victor Rosenthal is such a good “Russian” surname Rosenthal, at first he wanted to answer point by point, to the article, but realized that this was nonsense, and more worthy people had already sorted everything out on the shelves. Article minus. And VO already became interested in our opponents, if organized such an article.
  34. RUR
    RUR 31 July 2013 01: 56 New
    -1
    Quote: RUR
    "Who continued to supply Nazi Germany with raw materials even after 41 years? Not amers? Who during the war also invested money in the German economy? Not amers and arrogant bankers?"

    I'm not going to justify the allies here, but the scale
    aid of the USSR and Germany are not comparable

    “Who set the ultimatum of the USSR when Stalin asked for a corridor to defend Czechoslovakia in the 38th? Not the Psheks? And weren't they, under the guise of, conducting a military operation and seizing a piece of territory from Czechoslovakia?
    So who started the 2nd world? USSR and Germany, as we are trying to suggest, or Poland and Germany with the support of England? "

    You’d better try to find out how the region (namely the district), predominantly populated by Poles, became part of Czechoslovakia, I’m sure that in your opinion this is the eternal Zeil Chekhov laughing Until the Second World War, Poland never recognized the territory's entry into Czechoslovakia and made it a secret. And the USSR recognized the borders of Poland after the Riga Peace of 2.

    "And that the USSR had to follow the lead of England and start the war with Germany in the 39th? So that then unharmed England and the USA would finish off the USSR?

    Why not ? After all, until 1939 the USSR was a ball so brave and courageous fighter against Fascism (in the press and Spain) and the hegemony of Germany. But after the signing of the Molotov Ribbentropp pact
    and secret protocols to him, even newspaper criticism of Germany disappeared. Verbiage is obtained. T
    So why not fight the Germans in 1939?
    There is no point in spreading about the defense of Czechoslovakia - this was one verbiage.

    "Or do you want to present to Stalin the return of part of the territory of the Russian Empire?
    The impudent people were preparing for the bombing of Baku, so who is the aggressor here? "

    The USSR was not the legal successor of the Russian Empire and, I repeat, the USSR recognized the borders of Poland (Another verbiage) The instigator and accomplice of aggression can be bombed


    "Churchill himself wrote in his memoirs that Stalin, signing a pact with Hitler, acted as a wise politician."
    Give a link to an authoritative source (page, chapter, etc., otherwise another verbiage will turn out)


    (I’m not talking about you, but about Churchill, if you give a link, but if you don’t, you might get the impression that he was not a different person) he just doesn’t understand that the pact opened up the possibility for Germany to start a war ()

    “How many times has the Red Army been forced to launch unprepared attacks to save our grief allies in the Ardennes and grief rebels in Warsaw?”
    "
    WHAT HAS THE RED ARMY HELPED TO RISE IN WARSAW?

    The Kyrgyz Republic slowed down in Prague (a suburb of Warsaw separated from the actual Warsaw Vistula) and watched with interest the suppression of the uprising in Warsaw itself


    Summary: meanness and treachery were enough for both the West and the USSR
  35. Cap
    Cap 31 July 2013 20: 30 New
    0
    U.S. Churchill "How I Fought With Russia" part 7 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
    "... However, the British government urgently needed to think about the practical significance of the guarantees given to Poland and Romania. None of these guarantees had military value except as part of a general agreement with Russia. Therefore, for this purpose, April 16, 1939 finally, negotiations began in Moscow between the British ambassador and Litvinov. Considering what the Soviet government had met so far, now you did not have to expect much from it. However, on April 17 it put forward an official proposal, the text of which was not published, on the creation of a unified mutual aid front between Britain, France and the USSR. These three powers, if possible, with the participation of Poland, should also guarantee the inviolability of those states of Central and Eastern Europe that were threatened by German aggression ... "
    This Churchill writes about Stalin’s proposal to conclude an anti-Hitler pact.
    His suggestions were not accepted. Read the source.
    And here is what Churchill writes about the actions of the USSR before Hitler's attack on Poland:
    "... It is impossible to say to whom he was more disgusted — to Hitler or Stalin. Both recognized that this could only be a temporary measure dictated by circumstances. The antagonism between the two empires and systems was deadly. Stalin, no doubt, thought Hitler would be less dangerous enemy for Russia after a year of war against the Western powers.Hitler followed his method of “singly.” The fact that such an agreement was possible marks the entire depth of the failure of English and French politics and diplomacy in several years.
    In favor of the Soviets, it must be said that it was vital for the Soviet Union to push the initial positions of the German armies as far west as possible so that the Russians would gain time and be able to gather forces from all over their colossal empire. In the minds of Russians, the catastrophes that their armies suffered in 1914 when they launched an offensive against the Germans before they finished mobilization were imprinted with a hot iron. And now their borders were much more east than during the first war. They needed to force or deceive the Baltic states and most of Poland before they were attacked. If their policy was coldly prudent, then it was also at that moment highly realistic ... "
    1. RUR
      RUR 1 August 2013 01: 46 New
      0
      Churchill clearly wrote: "Stalin no doubt thought that Hitler would be a less dangerous enemy for Russia after a year of war against the Western Derhavs." Those. Churchill understood that the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was a war. Actually, I wrote about this and you only once again confirmed my point of view
      Thanks for the quotes (I’m here without irony and ridicule)
      1. Cap
        Cap 1 August 2013 20: 23 New
        0
        But we regard it differently.
        Churchill does not doubt Stalin’s desire to simply delay the inevitable war with Hitler, while not substituting for the combined blow of England and France, and maybe the United States.
        Churchill considers this a reasonable step of a ruler who does not want to destroy his country in a hopeless situation.
        So why do we, the inhabitants of this country, who are perhaps alive because of this decision of Stalin, should curse Stalin and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
        Just because our enemies say so?
  36. Cap
    Cap 31 July 2013 20: 45 New
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    U.S. Churchill "How I Fought With Russia" part6 From War to War
    "... In the evening of September 27, the French ambassador in Berlin was instructed to make new additional proposals for expanding the territory of the Sudetenland, which was subject to immediate German occupation. While Francois-Ponce was with Hitler, a telegram came from Mussolini recommending acceptance of Chamberlain’s offer on the meeting and announcing Italy’s consent to participate in it, at three o'clock in the afternoon on September 28, Hitler sent telegrams to Chamberlain and Daladier with a proposal to meet with Mussolini the next day in Munich, at which point Chamberlain spoke in the House of Commons with a general overview of recent events. Shortly before the end of his speech, Lord Halifax, who was sitting in a gallery for peers, sent him a telegram inviting him to Munich, at which moment Chamberlain spoke about the letter he sent to Mussolini and the results of this step:
    “Hitler agreed to postpone mobilization for 24 hours ... That's not all. I can tell the chamber something else. Hitler has now notified me that he is inviting me to meet with him in Munich tomorrow morning. He also invited Mussolini and Daladier. Mussolini agreed, and I have no doubt that Daladier will do the same. I don’t need to say what my answer will be ... The Chamber, I’m sure, will agree to let me go now so that I can think about what this last effort can give. ”

    So, Chamberlain flew to Germany for the third time. A lot has been written about this memorable date. Here it is only possible to emphasize some of its characteristic features. Russia was not invited. Similarly, the Czechs themselves were not allowed to attend the meeting. The Czechoslovak government was notified on the evening of September 28 in a few words that a meeting of representatives of the four European powers would be held the next day. Agreement between the Big Four was reached without delay. Negotiations began at noon and lasted until two in the morning. The memorandum was drawn up and signed at 2 a.m. on September 30. In essence, this was the adoption of the Godesberg ultimatum. The evacuation of the Sudetenland was to be carried out in five stages, starting from October 1, and completed in 10 days. The final definition of boundaries was provided to the international commission. The document was handed over to the Czech delegates, who were allowed to come to Munich to find out about the decision.
    While three statesmen were waiting for the experts to finalize the document, the Prime Minister asked Hitler if he would like to speak with him privately. Hitler "seized on this thought." The two leaders met in Hitler’s Munich apartment on the morning of September 30th. During the conversation there was nobody but an interpreter, Chamberlain proposed the following draft of the declaration prepared by him, which said: “We, the Führer and Chancellor of Germany and the British Prime Minister, continued our conversation today and unanimously came to the conclusion that the question was Anglo-German Relations is of paramount importance for both countries and for Europe.
    We consider the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German naval agreement as a symbol of the desire of our two peoples to never wage war against each other.
    “We are determined to address other issues concerning our two countries through consultations and to strive to resolve any disagreements in the future in order to help ensure peace in Europe.”
    Hitler read this note and signed it without objection ... "
    What is this if not a non-aggression pact between England, France and Germany?
    So they can, and Stalin, who signed the pact a year later - byak?
    1. RUR
      RUR 1 August 2013 01: 49 New
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      What is this if not a non-aggression pact between England, France and Germany?
      So they can, and Stalin, who signed the pact a year later - byak?

      Where are the secret protocols of this treaty
      England, France and the Germans. Stalin had a completely different agreement with the Germans, it’s a pity that you don’t understand
      1. Cap
        Cap 1 August 2013 20: 31 New
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        That is, you do not believe the recorded words of Winston Churchill?
        If you are attacked by a “group of persons by prior conspiracy,” will you also demand to admit their innocence in court, since the notarized agreement between the participants of the attack that they undertake to attack you together is not presented to the court?
        I understand only that the enemies agreed in no case to harm one another. And then one of these enemies convinces me that I guarantee his safety and the safety of his allies from the attack of another of their allies, without giving me any guarantees in return.
        Maybe it’s easier for me to conclude a non-aggression pact only with those whom they are so afraid of?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. RUR
          RUR 2 August 2013 01: 10 New
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          What do you mean, do not believe? Let's try to rely on the facts and
          to draw conclusions. In such matters one should not be guided by faith.

          And why don’t you believe Winston yourself, because he doesn’t write that it was
          treaty of attack on the USSR.
          And the facts are that from the moment of signing this agreement until the signing of the pact

          Molotov-Ribbentrop passed a year and no aggressive action was taken against the USSR

          on the part of these states.
          And after the signing of the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, only a few days passed and the war began
          The pact was signed on August 23, 1939, the beginning of the war on September 1, 1939.

          And why: "... the enemies agreed ...". If so, then all these countries
          would unite against the USSR and he would cease to exist, but this did not happen. Did not attack

          because (all together) and even further helped. Let's avoid fantasies and faith in them.

          Well, as for Churchill, I see (from your own quotes based on) that he understood the connection between

          the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact and the outbreak of war.
          1. Cap
            Cap 2 August 2013 20: 38 New
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            Why I DO NOT BELIEVE Churchill? On the contrary, otherwise he would not quote him.
            I did not write that they agreed to attack the USSR together. I wrote that they agreed not to harm each other. But at the same time, England wanted the USSR to guarantee the security of Poland, Romania and the Baltic countries from German invasion.
            Now imagine that Stalin was seduced by this wiring. Hitler attacks Poland and Stalin, in accordance with the signed treaty, stands up for her defense. And then the same thing happens as in real history: England and France declare war on Germany, but do nothing at all! Based on the document that Churchill writes about, it becomes clear why.
            Thus, the USSR remains face to face with Germany, since Poland in any case could not have confronted Germany at least for a substantial period.
            And, in real history, England and the United States began to help the USSR only after England faced a direct threat of German occupation, and she preferred to help one of her enemies a little against the other than to fight herself.
            So I’m far from captivated by fantasies ...
  37. Cap
    Cap 31 July 2013 21: 14 New
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    Ibid.
    "... We now also have the answer of Field Marshal Keitel to a specific question asked by the representative of Czechoslovakia at the Nuremberg trials:
    “The representative of Czechoslovakia, Colonel Eger asked Field Marshal Keitel:“ Would Germany attack Czechoslovakia in 1938 if the Western powers supported Prague? ”
    Field Marshal Keitel replied: “Of course not. We were not strong enough from a military point of view. The goal of Munich (that is, reaching an agreement in Munich) was to oust Russia from Europe, gain time and complete the armament of Germany "..."
    "... However, the Germans were not the only predators who tormented the corpse of Czechoslovakia. Immediately after the conclusion of the Munich agreement on September 30, the Polish government sent an ultimatum to the Czech government, which was to be answered after 24 hours. The Polish government demanded the immediate transfer of the Teszyn border region to him. There wasn’t no way to resist this gross demand.
    The heroic character traits of the Polish people should not force us to turn a blind eye to his recklessness and ingratitude, which for several centuries have inflicted on him
    immeasurable suffering. In 1919, it was a country that the victory of the Allies after many generations of division and slavery turned into an independent republic and one of the main European powers. Now, in 1938, due to such an insignificant question as Teshin, the Poles broke up with all their friends in France, in England and in the USA, who returned them to a unified national life and whose help they should soon need so much. we
    they saw how now, while a reflection of the power of Germany fell on them, they hastened to seize their share in the plunder and ruin of Czechoslovakia. At the time of the crisis, all doors were closed for the English and French ambassadors. They were not even admitted to the Polish Foreign Minister.
    It should be considered the secret and tragedy of European history that people capable of any heroism, some of whom are talented, valiant, charming,
    constantly showing such huge flaws in almost all aspects of his public life. Glory in times of rebellion and grief; infamy and shame during periods of triumph. The bravest of the brave too often have been led by the most infamous of the vile! And yet two Poland always existed: one of them fought for the truth, and the other creeped into meanness ... "
    1. RUR
      RUR 1 August 2013 01: 33 New
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      Well, about meanness (in this case, the imaginary meanness of Poland) you can write if you do not know or knowingly omit some historical facts. The author and you after him do not know or deliberately omit the fact that Poland did not recognize the entry of the Czech region into Czechoslovakia. You and the author you are quoting do not know or deliberately ignore the fact that the President of Czechoslovakia, Benes, himself proposed to return the Czech region to Poland in his message in 1938 to the Polish authorities. About the same wrote Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia Croft.

      These letters in French are stored in the HRC archive in Prague in the Polish sheet music and negotiations department and in the archive of the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Warsaw.

      Czech journalist Pavel Tigrid adviser Havel wrote that
      at that time, the West was awaiting Prague’s decision to resist Germany, but Benes got scared and it came to Munich. You and your author probably do not know that the very idea of ​​transferring the Sudeten region to the Germans belongs to the President of Czechoslovakia Benes. The Czechs overdid it in a nationalist frenzy (Infringement of the rights of the German minority (the uprising was suppressed), Hungarian, Polish, and even Slovaks got it) Benes had nothing else to do. It is curious that the citizens of this state
      love to call themselves the only island of democracy in those
      years. (I met similar naive views in Russian journalism) And the affiliation of the Czech region to the Czechs from 1918 to 1938 was just an occupation.
      1. Cap
        Cap 1 August 2013 20: 43 New
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        This author is Sir Winston Churchill.
        And if an ally of Poland claims the inadequacy of their claims to the Tieszyn region, maybe it is so?
        Or do you unconditionally also recognize Japan’s rights to the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin? After all, Japan did not sign the peace treaty separately with the USSR, to which they refer, not recognizing the post-war borders. But Japan seized these territories less than 40 years before, according to the results of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.
        Or do you unconditionally acknowledge the rights of a group of people (Poland, England, France when signing the Peace of Riga) who put a knife to your throat, just because you signed an agreement with them?
        Why do not you recognize the right of the citizens of the Russian Empire, who were forcibly transferred under the authority of enemies who hate everything Russian, to reunite with their fellow tribesmen, while recognizing the right of Polsha to annex the whole Czechoslovak region, together with the Czechs and Slovaks inhabiting it, on the ground that the Poles live there too.
        You probably applauded when you removed its original part - Kosovo from Serbia, only on the basis that the Albanians who arrived there were able to slaughter the Serbs living there?
        1. RUR
          RUR 2 August 2013 01: 05 New
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          I’m not going to discuss Serbia, the Kuril Islands, etc. We started talking
          about the start of the war. Let's stay in some kind of thematic framework.
          What Churchill is a Bible for you?
          Well, if this is really Churchill, then he does not understand the essence
          Czech-Polish conflict, because he writes: "... because of such a minor
          question like Teshin ... "
          But what doors should always be open for English and French diplomats?
          Inadequacy in this matter is characteristic of Churchill, although he is a Polish ally (so far beneficial).
          You do not think that since the prime minister, then special, authority and truth in the last resort.
          Lloyd George, for example, confused Silesia with Turkish Cilicia. Probably also an authority for many and

          in many questions.

          If you are able to reason sensibly and are familiar, even superficially, with the history of this

          question, you cannot but admit that the Czechs by force resolved a territorial dispute with Poland,
          occupying the area in 1919.
          Czechs got Tesin using the state of Poland’s war with the Western Ukrainian People’s Republic
          For reference, at the end of 1918 the army of Polnii numbered 5 thousand people.

          The vast majority of the population were precisely the Poles, then the Germans came and a negligible number

          Czechs
          (there is an Austrian census)
          After the First World War, it was the right of nations to self-determination that was elevated to the principle and not
          historical, economic and strategic considerations that guided the Czech Republic
          in this dispute.
          (Slovaks played a small role in the pre-war island of democracy)
          If you support the Czech Republic in this matter, then you cannot but recognize the right of any state
          have a claim, for example, to Russia. After all, the Russian Far East would play a significant role
          in the strategy and economy of Japan, China, the USA or some other other country.
          I see that you, like Churchill, do not know the history of this issue. If you argue on

          this tkmu then get acquainted, for example, here: ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish- Czechoslovak war.
          The information there is not entirely accurate. write, for example, the following phrase:
          "Czechoslovak President Tomas Masaryk said that if the Teshinsky conflict is not resolved

          in favor of Czechoslovakia, his country will intervene on the side of Soviet Russia in the recently begun

          Soviet-Polish war. Poland, frightened by the prospect of a war on two fronts, made concessions. "
          In reality, Poland was ready to recognize the area for the Czechs, provided that they miss

          weapons for Poland (the warrior of Soviet Russia and Poland was 1920) through its territory,
          The Czechs did not miss and Poland began to consider herself free from such obligations.
          There are several more inaccuracies in this source: "The area around which the dispute began has been part of Bohemia since 1339." The area (then the principality) was ruled by the Polish princely dynasty of the Piasts who were vassals of the Czech crown. Vassal addiction does not mean
          incorporation (direct incorporation into its territory). SAMA CZECH REPUBLIC This region is not bordered, but bordered by Moravia, which, like the Czech Republic itself, is the Czech Republic

          But the source for the beginner will do.
          1. Cap
            Cap 2 August 2013 20: 46 New
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            I do not consider Churchill a model of a virtuous ruler, but still in my mind and adequacy I cannot refuse him.
            Suppose Czechoslovakia really took Teshin from Poland, but, as I understand from your explanation, an agreement on this was signed.
            Yes, the agreement is probably unfair, but it was signed, and it was no more unfair than Riga between the USSR and Poland. Both were signed under duress.
            So there’s no escape from the chronology of events.
            The first aggressors in World War II were not Germany and the USSR, as the enemies of Russia are trying to imagine now, namely Germany and Poland.
            Or, if we assume that Poland "restored historical justice", then the USSR then has nothing to show.
            So the "newbie" at least knows what figure comes after which ...
            1. RUR
              RUR 20 August 2013 23: 44 New
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              The agreement was signed on condition that Czechoslovakia missed weapons, Czechoslovakia did not fulfill the condition and, of course, Poland considered itself free from obligations. (I WRITE ABOUT THIS SECOND TIME) But Poland did not make a secret from the fact that it did not recognize the entry of the Czech region into Czechoslovakia and the USSR recognized
              The territorial integrity of Poland is the difference.
              And I draw your attention to the fact that the Czechs themselves offered to return this territory to Poland (the Polish ultimatum concerned only the date of transfer, but there was no requirement to give the territory, because the Czechs themselves
              offered to return)
              I am writing about this for the second time too.

              You write about the lands that were transferred to Poland as part of the Russian Empire, but these lands were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth longer than the Russian Empire and why do you think that these are lands
              The Russian Empire, probably this is the land of s and / or Poles since these territories are controversial. There have never been large Russians there, a certain number appeared only after the Second World War
              The USSR was not the legal successor of the Russian Empire,
              so what are you writing about? I write about it a second time
            2. RUR
              RUR 20 August 2013 23: 45 New
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              The agreement was signed on condition that Czechoslovakia missed weapons, Czechoslovakia did not fulfill the condition and, of course, Poland considered itself free from obligations. (I WRITE ABOUT THIS SECOND TIME) But Poland did not make a secret from the fact that it did not recognize the entry of the Czech region into Czechoslovakia and the USSR recognized
              The territorial integrity of Poland is the difference.
              And I draw your attention to the fact that the Czechs themselves offered to return this territory to Poland (the Polish ultimatum concerned only the date of transfer, but there was no requirement to give the territory, because the Czechs themselves
              offered to return)
              I am writing about this for the second time too.

              You write about the lands that were transferred to Poland as part of the Russian Empire, but these lands were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth longer than the Russian Empire and why do you think that these are lands
              The Russian Empire, probably this is the land of s and / or Poles since these territories are controversial. There have never been large Russians there, a certain number appeared only after the Second World War
              The USSR was not the legal successor of the Russian Empire,
              so what are you writing about? I write about it a second time
  38. RUR
    RUR 21 August 2013 01: 03 New
    0
    Cap: In real history, England and the United States began to help the USSR only after England faced a direct threat of German occupation, and she preferred to help her enemy a little against the other than to fight herself.
    So I’m far from captivated by fantasies ...

    A direct threat to the occupation of England arose as far back as 1940, but no assistance was provided to the USSR, according to Lend-Lease the first deliveries were made in 1942
  39. mehmeh
    mehmeh 8 December 2014 16: 24 New
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    Yes, the saviors of Russia. I still need to know exactly who brought the Bolsheviks to power and wanted to seize the transsib on Czech bayonets