Military Review

The last frontier of power

75
To department stories "Red Star" comes a lot of letters. The authors sometimes report facts that do not fit into the usual ideas about the past of our Fatherland. Of course, new alternative versions should be treated carefully so that the myths imposed in the epoch of Catherine II and Alexander I will not be replaced by other myths, even if they were generated by good intentions.


But some thoughts of the readers of the Red Star, seemingly almost fantastic at first glance, deserve attention because of cited little-known historical information. The material “The Last Frontier of the Defense of Tartary” appeared in the editorial post (the author appears in Live Journal under the account Kadykchanskiy). Fans of historical sensations, he is known for having received resonance material about the disappeared fortresses of the XVIII century in the Omsk region.

What does the winner in the occupied territories in the first place? That's right, he destroys the history of the captured country. Without the destruction of people's memory, it is impossible to establish dominance in the occupied territories. Otherwise, a guerrilla war awaits him, and it always ends in defeat for the occupier. As long as the warrior remembers what he shed blood for, he cannot be turned into a slave. As soon as a person loses the heritage of his ancestors, he immediately does everything possible to regain what belongs to him by right.

However, as soon as a person loses his mind, read memory, everything already becomes indifferent to him. He loses the taste for life, ceases to build and goes with the flow, considering himself a hostage to circumstances. Having lost the meaning of existence, a person takes the path of self-destruction, burning himself in idleness, drunkenness, drug addiction and becoming mired in all other types of “legal drugs”, such as television series, battles of sports fans ...
In this case, the fate of a person is the eternal aimless walking in the desert under the whistle of the whipers of the drovers, following the carrot hanging in front of his nose on a string.

I also call “walking” what millions of Egyptologists, sumerologists, acadologists, and other “scholars” engaged in transfusion from empty to empty do. Their activity boils down to one thing - to be busy all the time and go on the wrong path, leading them further and further away from the truth.
On a photograph taken from the air, 1 is not a magandavid (six-pointed star of David. - Ed.) Drawn by green men on a wheat field, as one might think. These are traces of the fort, which was here, but which is completely razed, flush with the ground. Do you now understand what the Russian phrases literally mean: “Don't leave a stone on a stone” and “level off a damp earth”?

Where do you think it is filmed? In France? Germany? Spain? There such forts are a dime a dozen, and they are all rebuilt and kept in the best possible way, and this is removed ... Do not fall from the chairs and the chairs. This is the Omsk region!

Once on the ground, you will see such a picture (photo No. 3). More precisely, you will not see anything. Not a single stone, block or brick. Everything was dismantled to zero and taken out! How much effort and money spent on it? Is the goal really so important that it justifies the means? There is no doubt that it is so.

If you know that the enemy will destroy any reminder of the past of the conquered people, burn the archives and books, prohibit the original religion, destroy culture and art, then it becomes clear that this fortress was leveled to the ground.

Who was defeated in that war? Who defended inside the Siberian fortress? We don't know that yet. Perhaps they called themselves Russians, perhaps Tartars, what to guess now. I called them tall. Tartary, by the way, is not a self-name. That was the name of this country in Europe.

The winners destroyed everything that allowed the Dorians to know about their recent past. If forts stand in Europe to this day, but are destroyed in Siberia, then what is the conclusion? The conquerors came from where the forts are all-rounders. If you decide that our scientists do not know anything about the former fortresses, then you are deeply mistaken. Look at the photo number 2. Clearly written: "Protected by law."

But the residents of the Omsk Region themselves (in any case, their overwhelming majority) do not know anything about this fortress, not to mention the fact that this information should be known to every schoolchild. But the Bayard fort (stone fort, located off the Atlantic coast of France and used for the filming of a television show. - Ed.) Is known to the whole world!

If you think that the Pokrovskaya fortress is the only one, then I hurry to surprise you. There are hundreds, if not thousands of such forts on the territory of Russia, and all of them are completely hidden! Know the conquerors at the time, that someday there will be aerial photography, they would have covered it all with sand. Humans roam the earth, and it does not occur to them what picture opens from a bird's-eye view.

Not all forts discovered from the air are located in the Irtysh area. There are many of them in Ukraine. But the greatest density of the found fortresses is in a very limited space in the Omsk and Tyumen regions.

Imagine how much strength was laid to so thoroughly "clean up" the area? So that the descendants could not find even traces of the former fortification power of the Siberian "savages"?

In Europe, each fort is built on an individual project. Siberian forts - typical. Like "Khrushchev". What does this mean? This suggests the existence of standardization during their construction. But there can be no standards in a non-industrial country. Standards appear where in-line production and a unified training system exist.

We can also make a very important conclusion from quantitative indicators. Such a huge number of complex fortifications says that their designers had not only high qualifications, coupled with a huge number of builders, but also the most powerful material and human resources. This is only possible by a centralized country.

Our reference. The Pokrovskaya fortress was located on the territory of the present Maryanovsky district of the Omsk region on the northern shore of the Pokrovsky lake. According to the academic science, the fortress was one of the guard fortifications of the Tobol-Ishim line. The octagonal fortress occupied an area of ​​6 ha. The fortifications are reinforced with earthy streaks, a moat and bastions, which, like arrows, are far advanced to ensure the flanking of the approaches. It is believed that at the beginning of the XIX century, with the construction of the railway, the fortress lost its military purpose.


And what do history books write? About the endless deserted expanses inhabited by savages who worship wooden idols under the sound of a shaman tambourine ...

Until the middle of the XIX century, “Dorossia” tried to throw off the yoke. In a series of national liberation wars are such events as peasant uprisings and riots of Stepan Razin, Yemelyan Pugachev ... Nonsense is like a simple Cossack Stepan Razin decided to jump on the royal throne. The people followed him precisely because he remained one of the last legitimate heirs of the former ruler of the state.

We also mention the Great Wall of the Volga (you can see it in the 4 image). She, too, would fall asleep without fail if they knew that in the future they would invent aircraft.

From the editorial board. The remains of this grand structure can be traced throughout the Russian Trans-Volga region - from the Astrakhan region to Tatarstan, after which the earthen wall turns to the east and is lost somewhere in the foothills of the Middle Urals. Academic science avoids studying this issue, research is carried out without state support for small groups of enthusiasts.

Scientists assure us that it was built to repel attacks of Asian nomads on Muscovy. Well, yes ... Only the ledges of the towers look in the opposite direction - to the west. It turns out that the defenders of the wall defended from invasion from the west?

Do you know the length of these fortifications? It is clear, no one knows for sure. But the fact that the fortifications were from Astrakhan to Perm does not raise objections from any of the specialists. The Zavolzhskaya Great Wall is marked with a red line on the map in the article. Its length is about two and a half thousand kilometers!

To date, even the remains of this wall give an idea of ​​its majesty: an average of five meters in height and seventy meters in width. Add a ditch about ten meters wide and up to four meters deep. This is just fantastic, these are unrealistic numbers! And this is just what has come down to our days.

Egyptian pyramids simply fade in volume of work performed. You feel like a dwarf somehow compared to the ancestors. Did they do it all without building mechanization?

Why are historians silent? Where is this information in the textbooks?


New owners of the land of our ancestors inherited such technologies that humanity does not possess even today. For example, artillery. Alexei Ivanovich Kungurov from Chebarkul noted that there are obvious inconsistencies in the history of the development of artillery. Technology, instead of developing, degraded. This is confirmed by the findings of other researchers.

Konstantin Raldugin asks the question: “Why did the copper cannon makers, owning foundry technologies, not cast cores from any low-melting metal, but prefer stone cores (granite) made of limestone, clay and even pumice and tuff?”

The very fact that, having the ability to cast guns, a man made shells of stone - is nonsense! The stone is light, brittle, such properties minimize its damaging properties, and in the manufacture it is very time consuming. Another thing - the iron core! Lean off - no problem. Heavy, when shooting - the most it! But no ... Stone core!

Were not all these stone-cores a pathetic attempt to recreate the lost technology? Suppose, people remembered that a powder was loaded into a cannon (its properties resembled our powder) and a “shell” was obviously not ironed into the barrel - a rock of some kind of rock (similar in shape to a ball). And they called it a miracleweapon firearms Note: not cobblestones, nor the core-firing, namely, firearms.

Or maybe the guns were once really firearms in the truest sense? Fire, we recall, is plasma. Imagine that the core is not a simple stone, but a piezoelectric, and their efficiency, as you know, is from 60 to 90 percent. This means that any force applied to the piezoelectric can change from kinetic to electric. Hypothetically, guns could once fire with a kind of plasma formation (a kind of ball lightning).

From the editorial board. Piezoelectrics are dielectrics in which a piezoelectric effect is observed. Under the action of deformation, they can induce an electric charge on their surface (direct piezoelectric effect). Most often, modern man meets with them in the lighters, where a spark is formed from a blow to a piezo-plate.

Raldugin put forward a very interesting version. Copper is a very soft and expensive metal. It is cheaper and easier to use cast iron or iron trunks, but the “ignorant” ancestors aggressively cast copper cannons. Although this provided additional trouble: to increase the service life of the barrels, it was necessary to make them bimetallic: the muzzle - with iron, and the “shirt” - with copper. Why?

And if you know that after gold copper is quite a suitable conductor? If you remember the piezoelectric properties of quartz-containing minerals?
Perhaps we are dealing with the hypersonic kinetic weapons of the ancients? The bottom line is that if you disperse a small particle to hypersonic speeds, then when it collides with an obstacle or when destroyed, a fantastic amount of energy is released. A grain the size of a rice, for example, is able to destroy a modern tank. The only question is how to achieve this speed.

The application of the fifth aggregative state of a substance, plasma, could help solve this problem. If a plasma “cocoon” is formed around a flying object, then it is capable of accelerating to speeds several times higher than the speed of sound, and, when confronted with a target, cause a powerful explosion.

Now, armed with this knowledge, we can take a fresh look at the archaic copper (bimetallic) weapon, charged from the trunk and using a spherical stone core. Copper, electricity, piezoeffect, perhaps a few more unknown or simply not taken into account by us "ingredients" ... - and everything ceases to seem so fantastic.

Read Raldugin on the Internet, and you will see that everything is quite likely. There is every reason to believe that we are dealing with a case when the tomograph came to the camp and he did not find any other use, as a burden for pickling mushrooms.

The one who possessed knowledge used a bimetallic tube to accelerate the piezoelectric core to hypersonic speed and destroyed the target with one explosion. The secret of this weapon was lost as a result of political upheavals and the change of ruling dynasties. Copper for the production of guns refused, the core began to be cast from iron, and the development of artillery went on a dead end.

... Alas, much has been erased in the memory of our people about its history. However, this is not surprising, since, as archivists admit, no reliable written sources have survived before the reign of Peter I.
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  1. Gato
    Gato 23 July 2013 18: 15 New
    -1
    Copper, electricity, piezoelectric effect, maybe a few more unknown or simply not taken into account by us "ingredients" ... - and everything ceases to seem so fantastic

    ... and it turns out to be a complete nonsense of the afftor.
    1. Civil
      Civil 23 July 2013 20: 08 New
      +4
      author take care of fortifications and not guns
      1. Hans grohman
        Hans grohman 24 July 2013 01: 11 New
        +3
        I read the article - U.K.r. got here too
    2. ybrbnf1991
      ybrbnf1991 24 July 2013 01: 57 New
      +1
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D1%E8%E1%E8%F0%F1%EA%E0%FF_%EB%E8%ED%E8%FF
      it is called - the Siberian line - a system of defensive structures in the south of Western Siberia in the XVIII-XIX centuries. It included the Tobolsk-Ishim (1752-1755 gg.), Irtysh (1745-1752 gg.) And Kolyvano-Kuznetsk (1747-1768 gg.) Fortified lines built in different years.
    3. Asgard
      Asgard 24 July 2013 10: 20 New
      +5
      Bullshit (in English, bread is BREAD))) food for the mind ....

      I’m a geologist by training, I’m engaged in stone processing ...
      The Winter Palace of the Tsars and St. Isaac’s stand in St. Petersburg with responsibility I declareat our level of knowledge we are not able to repeat this ....
      We can’t make and deliver the Alexander Pillar right now
      In Moscow, the arch in honor of the victory over Napoleon was reconstructed. There, the sculptures are blown out of a centimeter CAST IRON. We don’t have SUCH TECHNOLOGIES ....
      Across SIBERIA, there is a forest inventory grid, this is when the forest is divided into squares with a certain side .... so, where the distance of the grid is measured in miles - there the FOREST grows reluctantly, and where the loggers did the grid, after 30 years it is not visible ... .

      there is much more ... BREAD and without explanation))))

      Bon Appetit)))
      1. Gato
        Gato 24 July 2013 11: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: Asgard
        I’m a geologist by training, I’m engaged in stone processing ...
        The Winter Palace of the Tsars and St. Isaac’s stand in St. Petersburg with responsibility I declare, at our level of knowledge WE ARE NOT able to repeat this ....

        No doubt.
        I’m a techie (instrument-making faculty of KPI), but I also can’t repeat the copper plasma gun firing with piezoelectric cores request
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 24 July 2013 13: 39 New
        0
        Quote: Asgard
        at our level of knowledge we are not able to repeat this ....

        I don’t know how to make stone tips, but why? There is iron.
  2. erased
    erased 23 July 2013 18: 21 New
    23
    The article is interesting. As for the "plasma" guns of antiquity, I will not say anything, it seems like fiction.
    That "Russia" became a power until the Pacific Ocean only in the 18th century is known. Maps of the 16th, 17th, 18th and even 19th centuries confirm this well. "Tartaria" is on all maps. Like "Russia".
    But the fact that huge gaps gap in history and that official "historians" cannot or do not want to explain many facts is accurate.
    One fact - the real, true history of "Great Russia" is little known to us, especially in that part, which relates to the times before the 19th century. A huge field of work for real scientists, not political ones, and “academicians” floating along the stream.
    PS The names of countries and government entities are given in quotation marks, since they are often arbitrary. In those days, many were called differently. And only Russia carried its name through the centuries. And even then replaced by the foreign word "Russia". RUSSIA is spelled correctly in Russian.
    1. Che
      Che 23 July 2013 19: 47 New
      16
      There were civilizations on our planet - this is a fact. Naturally, this was also in Eurasia. Old maps speak of a certain Tartaria from sea to sea. Historians are under the Western press and seriously do not want to deal with the ancient history of our territories. Fomenko and Nosovsky touched on this topic, so such a whine rose.
  3. sergey261180
    sergey261180 23 July 2013 18: 21 New
    14
    I called them Dorossians
    Well done author! Only he was mistaken with dating. Dorossians existed until 1992 in what was then called the USSR.
  4. Constantine
    Constantine 23 July 2013 18: 24 New
    18
    I agree with the author, they copied a lot or tried to drown in the abyss of time. I myself am collecting material on Russian history before Western claws reached it.

    In general, the trend is sad. When communicating with many Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Latvians, the feeling is that we are from different worlds. Many do not know the story absolutely. I was sincerely surprised when the Lithuanian one bulged his eyes because I did not know who the crusaders were, although the order was in neighboring Latvia. Yes, and threw off the video from the series when passers-by under the camera are asked questions. A Lithuanian couple from the 5th year, Faculty of History, Vilnius University was asked who N. Bonaparte is. The girl found it difficult to answer, and the guy said that he was one of those Lithuanian patriots who gave their lives for their freedom. I was just in shock.

    It's time. It is time, as far as possible, for each of those who think not only about themselves to carry out educational work with at least their closest associates. Otherwise, I will be ashamed that we have deprived our descendants of the truth about their ancestors.
    1. ale-x
      ale-x 24 July 2013 10: 41 New
      0
      Come on. In 1999, I took part in the History Olympiad, I and a friend of the 10th grade, high school students)))). So, we leave the classroom and a classmate asks: "What are you writing about Pearl Harbor?" And I wrote about the Japanese raid on the base of the US Navy in the Pacific, etc. (Mom presented the beautiful book "The Great Secrets of the Past", everything about it was interestingly told about it). And you, I ask him: "Damn, I wrote that this is the Yugoslav partisan" Curtain.
  5. vadimN
    vadimN 23 July 2013 18: 30 New
    21
    Piezo weapons can be doubted, but how to explain the presence of fortresses in such parts, and why there is not a word about this in official science? This is very interesting.
    1. igordok
      igordok 23 July 2013 18: 50 New
      +8
      Quote: vadimN
      You can doubt about piezo weapons,

      Piezoelectrics are used in modern artillery - fuses in cumulative ammunition.
      And about the stone cores. They were specially made to collapse. The effect is weaker, but the enemy cannot take advantage.
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 23 July 2013 21: 10 New
        +9
        Quote: vadimN
        how to explain the presence of fortresses in such parts, and why there is not a word about this in official science?
        http://belyaefff.livejournal.com/162373.htmlEveryone knows everything (photo from there)
        In the photograph taken from the air, No. 1 is not a magendavid (six-pointed star of David. - Ed.), Painted by green men on a wheat field, as you might think.
        How can you think if it is an eight-pointed star lol ? ZY And there are remnants of those defensive lines where I live, in the Volga region. In the flat forest-steppe zone, the continuous rampart from the side of the probable attack was covered with sifted and even ground, as now at the border guard border guard. The horse patrol patrolled on the top of the rampart and if the strip turned out to be violated, a sign was given about the breakthrough of the steppes or a messenger was sent to the nearest fortress. Everything was examined what fraud could be, if everything is confirmed by archival written sources and archaeological research. Well, about copper-plasma guns --- this is .g. No comments.
        1. Papakiko
          Papakiko 23 July 2013 23: 17 New
          +6
          Quote: Thunderbolt
          Everything has been studied, what could be falsifications, if everything is confirmed by archival written sources and archaeological research

          "Learned" in the right way.
          I have always been amused by the theories of "historians" about asemilation and other resorption of some peoples in other peoples.
          So for example about the Dzungars in the resource you quoted.
          Far, far in the east, several Oirat tribes created the Dzungar Khanate, led by the Huntaiji Batur. Within a few years, the united Jungars began to actively fight against all neighbors - the Chinese, Mongols, Kazakhs, Uighurs and other peoples who inhabited the expanses of Central Asia suffered from their raids.
          Even a beautiful map is presented.
          Both the Russians and the Dzungars sought to take control of the territory of Southern Siberia and the indigenous tribes inhabiting it. The Qing Empire also sought the same goals, but to a slightly lesser extent.
          and 1727 In the year, only the sudden death of the Tsar-Rabdan, the ruler of the Dzungaria, prevented the full-scale Russian-Dzungar war. The new ruler considered an attack on China more profitable and led the army south.

          What do we see south of Omsk?
          Kazakhstan and Central Asia with all Turkic peoples.
          No need to read and listen to the "vomit" of the official "history". The fortresses stood for the containment of the attacks of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Uigurs and other Central Asian "brothers". I hope there is no need to remind that in those days Samarkand was the central platform of the slave trade (mainly Slavs).
          Khanty and others lived in Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug and 100 years and 300 and 600 years ago. And in the steppes of modern Kazakhstan Kazakhs and others.
          There was the USSR and there were 15 republics with historical (200 years) names.
          And now these names are preserved. Only in place of Russia was Russia. Which as a whole doesn’t change anything. But it confirms the historical nonsense inflicted by the Geyropei scientific school.
          Look, read, ride, touch with your hands and eyes and breathe in the air of the expanses of your homeland. And you will be deeply purple on the "official story".
          1. hrych
            hrych 24 July 2013 10: 56 New
            +2
            Quote: Papakiko
            Samarkand was the central platform of the slave trade (mainly Slavs)

            Take a map, take a look that Samarkand is too far from the Slavs' resettlement sites, which makes it easier to capture Tajiks, Uzbeks, Uighurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, all sorts of Pashtuns, in the extreme case Altai, as slaves. Let me remind you of the Temirids and other Kakandan khans of Syanbi origin - of Genghisid origin, who greatly oppressed the local enslaved peoples and the main military operations of Samarkand took place in the direction of India and Afghanistan. Do not talk about Slavic slaves anymore, there is no such data, the Slavs came there only in the 19th century, led by the White General - Skobelev and Kakandy khans, the kerdyk came, and future migrant workers entered the Russian Empire. Temir - Leng planned the only trip to Moscow, but changed his mind in time. That the Slavs should be slaves is a pipe dream of all Russophobes, but only everything turned out exactly the opposite, right up to the Berlin Frau that had been spoken by Russian soldiers.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 24 July 2013 13: 42 New
              +2
              Quote: hrych
              That the Slavs should be slaves is a pipe dream of all Russophobes

              I will add that millions of Russian slaves in the Ottoman Empire are Western propaganda aimed at preventing the union of Slavs and Turks.
            2. Papakiko
              Papakiko 24 July 2013 16: 41 New
              0
              Quote: hrych
              Take a map; take a look that Samarkand is too far from the places of resettlement of the Slavs

              I'll upset you more.
              You look where Africa and where North America.
              And not CHE, carried by millions of future "African Americans".
              And if they built fortifications and kept the army, it was certainly not from defense from the wind and precipitation in the form of snow.
              Or do you think that the steppes went for firewood or hay?
              Quote: hrych
              That the Slavs should be slaves is a pipe dream of all Russophobes

              I would be glad to share this idea with you, but my good mind refuses to agree with you.
              The Zindans in the mountains of the Pamirs, the Caucasus and the places surrounding them are still not empty. The racial-national component does not matter.
              Or do you think these are my fantasies?
              The Slavs came there only in the 19th century, led by the White General - Skobelev and Kakandy khans came kerdyk
              Why did they go?
              To put an end to the raids of the "shaitan lads" incited by the Saxons.
              Of course, you can still argue that Venice did not work on the slave trade and the Vatican is absolutely clean.
              Watch the series of films "BIG GAME" by Mikhail Leontyev since you are too lazy to read books.
              1. hrych
                hrych 27 July 2013 09: 06 New
                +2
                Colleague, if the slave is not driven in the hold of the caravel, but driven on their own, then calculate how much water, grub, etc. are needed. How many people can pass by peshkadral and for how long. Samarkand, Bukhara and Kakand - the node of the Great Silk Road, a kind of oasis in the deserts (there are sandy, mountainous, icy deserts, etc.) is separated from Europe and Russia by thousands of kilometers of desert and great steppe where it makes purchases in Istanbul, Venice, etc. slaves are completely unprofitable especially if there is a crowd of local slaves. As you know, the main brand of the Silk Road is actually silk and spices, which at high cost took up little space in bags and pack animals, which were also often sold, and back the merchants went light, i.e. with bags of gold beckons, etc. The caravan moved at the speed of a camel, etc. Nor can there be any crowds of slaves. With goldfish you can already easily get Pashtun, Uigur, etc. slaves and not bother, because these countries were precisely subjected to aggression by the Kakand and Samarkand khans and more than enough prisoners. As for the Mediterranean and partly Crimea, the Turks routed the Balkan states and the remnants of New Rome (priests called Byzantium), respectively, of course you correctly noted the participation in this of the Vatican and the Italian merchant-controlled merchant cities in it. There is a fall of states - there is a crowd of slaves and structures that ensure this trade. Skobelev, of course, did not want to free Kakandan slaves, especially after the bombardment of the latter, most of those killed were sooner in this status. The empire was expanding, there was a redivision of the world, a campaign was being prepared for India and China, these lost strategic importance in the trade of silk, spices and degraded cannibalistic states (due to more economically viable sea routes, when you can carry thousands of ebony and resources in the hold, providing such a transition in the form of reserves of primarily fresh water and food, otherwise the ebony simply will not reach) just turned out to be on the path of a global redivision, just in the Leontief channel.
            3. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 01: 11 New
              +1
              Quote: hrych
              Samarkand is too far removed from the places of resettlement of the Slavs, which makes it easier to capture Tajiks, Uzbeks, Uigurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, any Pashtuns, in the extreme case Altai, as slaves.

              Gyyy, Sarts (settled residents of Uzbekistan) did not fight. Until the Kazakhs became part of the Russian Empire, the armies of the Uzbek khanates consisted of Kazakhs and Turkmens. Kazakhs and Turkmens by default could not fall into slavery to the Uzbeks))) Only Persians were stolen into slavery. As soon as the Kazakhs ceased to be mercenaries of the Uzbeks, they had to force their armies out of their own Sarts and Persian slaves. True, at the first shots these enormous untrained armies scattered in different directions, for they had never been engaged in military affairs, but were artisans and farmers. Only the Turkmens resisted the Russian army, and the Sarts (current Uzbeks) were far from militancy. These are not nomads.

              Quote: hrych
              Do not talk about Slavic slaves anymore, there is no such data, the Slavs came there only in the 19th century

              Here everything is absolutely true.

              Quote: hrych
              Temir - Leng planned the only trip to Moscow, but changed his mind in time.

              Temirlan did not give a damn about the Russians and the fact of the existence of Moscow. He once raised Tokhtamysh as the legal khan of the Golden Horde, but then Tokhtamysh sent him three letters (Tamerlan is a non-Chingizid and formally did not have the right to the khan’s throne). Here is Tamerlan and gouging Tokhtamysh. And in your phrase it looks as if Tamerlan was afraid to attack the Russians)))))) When Tokhtamysh was Tamerlane’s puppet, he burned Moscow easily, and Dmitry Donskoy had to urgently leave his city if they forgot.
              Quote: hrych
              Temirids and other Kakandan khans of Syanbi descent

              Timur is from the genus Barlas. This is a Turkic clan. Genghis Khan of the Kiyat clan. The Kazakhs consider it to be their kind, well, or at least simply Turkic. Only Mongols consider him a Mongolian clan (although they do not have one at all) and Russian / Soviet historiography. And even if they were Mongolian clans, then back in the 13th century these clans were 100% jure. And certainly - neither Timur nor the Kokand khans knew a word in Mongolian, but were exclusively Turkic-speaking.
              Well, and most importantly - the temporary gap between the Syanbians and Timur / Kokand khans is gigantic. It's like calling George W. Bush a Celt or a Saxon and claiming that he doesn't like Franks or Gauls.
              1. hrych
                hrych 31 July 2013 11: 08 New
                +2
                Firstly, Temir-Leng became related with the Genghisides by marriage and, in fact, this earned the right to be with the Genghisides, so to speak, “to enter the house” and he himself added the Magol title to Gurkhan. The direct descendants of the elder Genghisid Juchi in the form of the Sheibanids who counted the Timurids, despite being related to the Genghisides, the left and waged dynastic wars with varying degrees of success. The founders of the Kakandan Khanate, the Mingi, pushed into Central Asia precisely with Genghis Khan, and entered the troops of Sheybani Khan. But it was the founder of the Ming-Kakand dynasty, Shahrukh-biy, who considered himself a descendant of Timurid Babur, and the mingi of his ancestors only sheltered. Temir himself was from the Magolsk clan Barlas and had nothing to do with the Türks, that he ruled the Türkic peoples. Babur, on the other hand, founded the Mughal dynasty (note not the great Turks), who ruled the Indians right up to the British, but the Kakandan khans to Skobelev. So, the analogy with the Bush is not appropriate, although the Bush clan is from the Gottfried of Bulensky clan and in the dismantling of the Franks with the Gauls it is directly related.

                Secondly, when Tokhtamysh burned a village named Moscow, then it was such, and the fort was built there with the prospect of further expansion of the Vladimir princes (Vladimir was the capital of this kind) towards the Great Steppe, which smoothly transfers to Middle Asia and that moment precisely Chingizids and controlled. The calculation was faithful. The Vladimirites captured the steppe and Moscow became the center of a new reality, which turned it into the capital. Whether Dolgoruky was thinking of building this frontier outpost into what it will turn into, I don’t know; if so, he is either a great prophet or a very far-sighted and ambitious person. At that time, Moscow was a border outpost of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, and if Tokhtamysh set it on fire, you should not dramatize it, much less assume that it burned and captured all of Russia. That Temir fought with the Golden Horde is very true, and if he had opened a second front with the Vladimir team, it is not a fact that he was the winner, not only do some people think that Temir also entered into a conspiracy with the Vladimir team in opposing the Golden Horde, that he was negotiating so and no doubt, for without a doubt was a great strategist. So, in any case, I was scared to fight with the Russians, for it would at least be a second front relative to the Golden Horde, and from the scouts I knew the military capabilities of Vladimirtsev commensurate with the Horde, the presence of fortifications, forests, rivers and climatic conditions where the steppe cavalry and an army of Turkic slave southerners are very, very vulnerable. And I did it right because in the end, the Russian shoemaker crushed both the Golden Horde and Kakand, and if they dumped them from there, they themselves, and not under the blows of the great and invincible Uzbek army, for example.
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 00: 49 New
            +2
            Quote: Papakiko
            What do we see south of Omsk?
            Kazakhstan and Central Asia with all Turkic peoples.

            And Omsk is surrounded on all sides by Kazakh lands)))) The indigenous population of the Omsk region is Kazakhs. Russians are descendants of immigrants.
            Quote: Papakiko
            The fortresses stood for the containment of the attacks of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Uigurs and other Central Asian "brothers".

            And how often did Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Uighurs attack the Russian Empire in the 18th century? Tell us about the Kyrgyz invasion of Russia or the bloody Russian-Uyghur war))))))))) Kazakhs were a little buzzing, because they were unhappy that the Russians were seizing lands that belonged to the Kazakhs. But there was no full-scale war. Then the Kazakhs will fly into the Cossacks, settled on Kazakh soil, then the Cossacks will attack the Kazakh village. Both Kazakhs and Cossacks were worth each other - those still amateurs to show their dare. And even then usually both sides ran into each other because of mutual thirst for barymty - they drove cattle from each other (Cossacks on the Kazakh border were usually engaged in cattle breeding, rather than farming, as it is now customary to think among ordinary people). And after the Kazakhs switched to Russian citizenship, the Kazakh-Cossack graters came to naught.
            Quote: Papakiko
            Samarkand was the central platform of the slave trade (mainly Slavs).

            Nonsense. Neither Kazakhs, much less Uzbeks (sedentary Sarts) did not steal anyone from Russia into slavery. Yes, there were prisoners of war when the indignant khan of Kenesary was "abolished" by the Russian tsar. But since the Kazakhs did not need prisoners at all, Kenesary simply threw these soldiers and Cossacks to the Khiva ruler. Without thinking twice, he assigned them to the Khiva army.
            Slaves in the Uzbek khanates were mainly from Persia. There were constantly graters with the Persians, and therefore there was a bunch of Shiites full of them. When Russia attacked the Uzbek khanates, they freed all Russian captives. Even their names are known. Almost all of these are military people - soldiers and Cossacks, who were once captured by Kenesary. And there was them all with a gulkin nose. You are probably confusing the Crimean Khanate)))) Although there the Russian prisoners were usually prisoners of war as well)))) Fortunately, Russia itself constantly sent its armies to the failed campaigns there. Then I had to redeem them at the state account. Yes, Crimeans often drove captive peaceful Slavs, but from non-Russian territory, and from that which then belonged to Poland. Recording them in the "Russian" in hindsight is completely biased.
            Quote: Papakiko
            And in the steppes of modern Kazakhstan, Kazakhs, etc.
            Only Kazakhs lived in the steppes of Kazakhstan. Therefore, it is called the Kazakh steppes. Bashkirs or Uyghurs would live there - they would be called Bashkir and Uyghur steppes)))

            Well, the Dzungars are no more, because they were totally destroyed (on the one hand, the Manchus of the Qing Empire, on the other, Kazakhs).
            1. hrych
              hrych 31 July 2013 13: 45 New
              +2
              Here's a plus for you, Colleague.
        2. soldat1945
          soldat1945 23 July 2013 23: 51 New
          +2
          Thanks for the good link and a clear explanation of the nonsense of the top article! She is already the second for today!
    2. abdrah
      abdrah 23 July 2013 23: 13 New
      +2
      But what about fortresses if official world science, including Russia, considers Cro-Magnon to be the first settlements of people, but about the fact that people lived near Voronezh about 10000 years earlier, it’s not advertised anywhere even though there is an article on Kostyonka on the wiki.
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 24 July 2013 00: 34 New
        +3
        Moscow, and the city of Petrov, and Konstantinov grad
        - Here are the kingdoms of the Russian treasured capital ...
        But where is the limit to him? and where are its borders
        “North, east, south, and sunset?”
        The future times will reveal their fate ...
        Seven inland seas and seven great rivers ...
        From the Nile to the Neva, from the Elbe to China,
        From the Volga to the Euphrates, from the Ganges to the Danube ...
        Here is the Russian kingdom ... and will not pass away forever,
        Somehow the Spirit saw and Daniel foretold.
        Fedor TYUTCHEV. ************** I spoke specifically on the article. I had the impression that the authors doubt when this defensive line was created. So I am aware of its fragment ( it is called the Great Volga wall here) .Well, historical documents, orders, town plans, correspondence have been preserved. And I used to be interested and learned a lot about developing my land in those days. There used to be villages, now of course there are villages and villages, but the history of each locality in its region is not so difficult to find out. This, with regards to this article. If you look deeper into the history of Russia, it’s as if Mamai passed. I’m talking about the period before Kiy. Well, there are no Russian intelligible sources about our history. one has to believe the neighboring annals if they "duplicate" and "overlap" each other. Well, of course, archeology provides rich material. Here you have to "pacify" yourself thinking about our past, because official science is also not a stone block, and a living organism and it is full options contradicting each other. About one thing I can say for sure: the Russian Upland is not in vain has such a spiritual name wink and the source of the Volga is why there is no name even in our great and mighty language. Here it is the source of Slavic life (photo 1910)
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 01: 17 New
          +2
          Quote: Thunderbolt
          the source of the Volga is why there is no name even in our great and mighty language

          Maybe because the Volga hydronym is of Finno-Ugric origin? The banks of the Volga were first settled by the Finno-Ugric, then the Türks (the river was called in its own way - Itil / Edil / Idel) and only then did the Eastern Slavs who came from Europe.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 00: 23 New
      +3
      Hyyyyy, about the fortress in the Omsk region, it is a small fortress that the Russians built in the 18th century, when Russian expansion reached the Kazakh steppes. A lot of such mini-fortresses were built on the border with the Kazakhs. However, when the Kazakhs became part of the Russian Empire, the need for them disappeared. Some of the fortresses turned into civilian cities, most of which exist today. And the part was simply abandoned as unnecessary objects. Nobody specifically destroyed these fortresses, just local people (or rather not quite local people, but Stolypin settlers) dragged abandoned objects to build their houses. And they were not built from solid stone, as in Europe. They were mostly wooden.
      In short, the author was too clever))))
  6. Tatb
    Tatb 23 July 2013 18: 36 New
    +9
    The beginning is more interesting and believable than the end, in the end the author suffered! laughing
  7. Djozz
    Djozz 23 July 2013 18: 38 New
    +4
    Lord What nonsense, a copper gun with a steel barrel. Krupp began pouring steel guns in the 19th century, when the technology of melting viscous and strong steel appeared. Copper guns were lighter than cast iron and forged from iron strips.
    1. Constantine
      Constantine 23 July 2013 18: 43 New
      12
      Lord What nonsense, a copper gun with a steel barrel. Krupp began pouring steel guns in the 19th century, when the technology of melting viscous and strong steel appeared. Copper guns were lighter than cast iron and forged from iron strips.


      I would not unequivocally say in terms of technology. Many ancient monuments, for example, clearly indicate that modern technologies do not reach, to put it mildly, those that were used in the construction of the same “city of the sun”, the processing of granite in Egypt during the construction of the Sphinx and the pyramids, as well as other megaliths, which were built BC and are still standing. Polygonal masonry is generally enchanting both in terms of accuracy and quality of processing, and in the weight of the blocks.

      There is a practice when something that does not fit into the theory generally accepted by the community of official historians is simply taken away so that no one can hear about it at all. Otherwise, all their titles and awards are an empty phrase, and they themselves will turn out to be charlatans.

      This is clearly visible both in Darwin's theory and in regard to ancient civilizations.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 19: 35 New
      +4
      Quote: Djozz
      Krupp began to pour steel guns in the 19th century, when the technology of melting viscous and strong steel



      Chebarkul steers


      Alexey Ivanovich Kungurov from Chebarkul

      This is a great "authority" for him, at least let him give artillery, that mechanics are all alone
      I will quote him a little
      We can read a lot of "works" on the construction of St. Isaac's Cathedral and the Alexandrian convoy, there are even cost estimates. But a detailed study of these "artifacts" shows their falsification.

      The fact that the processes of creating steam locomotives are described and described that they were created at the end of the 18th century does not mean that it really happened at the end of the 18th and not at the beginning of the 19th century.

      And in everything so, whatever you take, all the historians of the nonsense Chebarkul steers
  8. sergey261180
    sergey261180 23 July 2013 18: 47 New
    +3
    The very fact that, having the ability to cast guns, people made shells from stone, is already nonsense! The stone is light, brittle, such properties minimize its damaging properties, and it is very time-consuming to manufacture. Another thing is the cast iron core! Cast - no problem.
    Well here it clearly flogs. There is no problem in casting, but gouging ores, scavenging, digging up coking coal in Kemerovo or Donetsk, and even delivering all this on horseback to a blast furnace, is the problem. And all this had to be done manually by slaves, who were stolen from Russia by the Khazars and sold in slave markets.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 19: 19 New
      +5
      = seryy261180] dig up coking coal in Kemerovo or Donetsk,


      Something there no ancient mines were found, probably due to the lack of the same technology

      Quote: sergey261180
      And all this had to be done manually by slaves, who were stolen from Russia by the Khazars and sold in slave markets.


      In the course when neither the Khazars nor Russia sculpted the wall, although it is believed that these are just the remains of Russian defensive fortifications against nomads, erected under the leadership of Ivan Kirilov, Vasily Tatishchev and Pyotr Rychkov in the XVII-XVIII centuries, some researchers think that Russian immigrants just reconstructed Zavolzhsky historical rampart which is about 5 years old
      1. grafrozow
        grafrozow 23 July 2013 23: 31 New
        +2
        Quote: Vadivak
        Something there no ancient mines were found, probably due to the lack of the same technology
        Coal seams come to the surface, there was no need for mines. Example-Torez, Donetsk region.
  9. Constantine
    Constantine 23 July 2013 18: 52 New
    +1
    We don’t understand many things, not because our concepts are weak; but because these things are not part of our circle of concepts

    - K. Prutkov
    1. avt
      avt 23 July 2013 19: 18 New
      +7
      Quote: Constantine
      We don’t understand many things, not because our concepts are weak; but because these things are not part of our circle of concepts

      - K. Prutkov

      goodOn the question of the “savagery” of our ancestors. But who thought about length measures in Russia? It is generally accepted that they were related to human anatomy, but there is such an engineer Tinkov, a topographer by first education and a builder. So, based on the work of Magnitsky he analyzed the measures of the length of the Ancient East and Kievan Rus and came to the conclusion that all of them are based on degree measurements of the Earth. For those who wish, he showed everything in detail in his work A. Tinkov ,, Herodotov Scythia. " "
      1. luka095
        luka095 23 July 2013 19: 34 New
        +1
        Thanks for the link to the article.
        1. avt
          avt 23 July 2013 20: 51 New
          0
          Quote: luka095
          Thanks for the link to the article.

          I’ll clarify the book - Publishing House ,, Globus "Naberezhnye Chelny, 2000.
      2. Constantine
        Constantine 23 July 2013 19: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: avt
        On the question of the “savagery” of our ancestors. But who thought about length measures in Russia? It is generally accepted that they were related to human anatomy, but there is such an engineer Tinkov, a topographer by first education and a builder. So, based on the work of Magnitsky he analyzed the measures of the length of the Ancient East and Kievan Rus and came to the conclusion that all of them are based on degree measurements of the Earth. For those who wish, he showed everything in detail in his work A. Tinkov ,, Herodotov Scythia. " "


        Thanks for the tip. hi I will get acquainted)
      3. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 19: 42 New
        +2
        Quote: avt
        To the question of the “savagery” of our ancestors.


        Given that all people descended from Adam and Eve, then this is definitely our ancestors, although if you follow the theory of the respected Baltic who says that Adam and Eve are Jews, the question is really interesting smile
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 23 July 2013 21: 58 New
          -1
          Quote: Vadivak
          Given that all people descended from Adam and Eve, then this is definitely our ancestors, although if you follow the theory of the respected Baltic who says that Adam and Eve are Jews, the question is really interesting

          This is not my theory. This is the Bible that broadcasts, so all the questions to the authors of the work.
          1. Tatanka Yotanka
            Tatanka Yotanka 23 July 2013 23: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: baltika-18
            This is not my theory. This is the Bible that broadcasts, so all the questions to the authors of the work.

            I do not agree with you on this issue, the Bible does not
          2. Trapperxnumx
            Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 09: 54 New
            +2
            Quote: baltika-18
            This is not my theory. This is the Bible that broadcasts, so all the questions to the authors of the work.

            The Bible says that they are the progenitor of all mankind. And the Jews came from them in exactly the same way as the Russian and other tribes)))
  10. Vorchun
    Vorchun 23 July 2013 19: 07 New
    +5
    Quote: Djozz
    Lord What nonsense, a copper gun with a steel barrel. Krupp began pouring steel guns in the 19th century, when the technology of melting viscous and strong steel appeared. Copper guns were lighter than cast iron and forged from iron strips.

    In childhood, (in the 60s) we did the “ignition” - the steel pipe was driven into a copper one, it was believed. that a copper tube, when a steel barrel breaks, will not give fragments that could injure a young shooter. request
    1. grafrozow
      grafrozow 23 July 2013 23: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: Vorchun
      In childhood, (in the 60s) we did the “ignition” - the steel pipe was driven into a copper one, it was believed. that a copper tube, when a steel barrel breaks, will not give fragments that could injure a young shooter

      Yes, in Ukraine they were called "self-palomies."
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 01: 20 New
        +1
        In the Orenburg region, we called them "scarecrows."
  11. DPN
    DPN 23 July 2013 19: 08 New
    +5
    Even if it is from the world of science fiction, thanks to the author who writes about his country, he is looking for something good. And what has happened since the time of Yeltsin, about the country and people, apart from the dirt, there is nothing. By the way, perhaps HE is very right, for example, today's RUSSIA in comparison with the USSR, a return to serfdom, plants and raw materials here, and the owners and currency live in the decaying west;
    1. serge-68-68
      serge-68-68 23 July 2013 19: 32 New
      +1
      In Russian history, more than enough is good enough and little-known, and without piezoelectric guns, Dorossians and Jedi swords.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 19: 59 New
      +1
      Quote: DPN
      today's RUSSIA compared to the USSR, a return to serfdom


      It’s time for us to think about the people already, otherwise all taxes, rent, paid medicine and education are some half measures for children
  12. raja666
    raja666 23 July 2013 19: 33 New
    +3
    Slowly, slowly, the truth about Russia is revealed. For notes, our country used to be called tartaria, the territory was larger than the USSR and everyone was afraid of it, our kings told the Europeans how to live, what to do and this is a fact. And because of this, they do not like us, they do not want to acknowledge their insignificance and worthlessness. GO RUSSIA!
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 23 July 2013 19: 47 New
      +2
      Quote: Raja666
      the territory was larger than the USSR and everyone was afraid of it, our kings told the Europeans how to live, what to do and this is a fact.


      I would like to read about it at Hekatey, Herodotus, Thucydides or is it long before them?
    2. Che
      Che 23 July 2013 19: 58 New
      +4
      The West wrote history at the table, and our ancestors did it. All myths about the ancient country (Russia) in Eurasia are not created from scratch. These are echoes of the past history of our ancestors. It is necessary to study despite the opposition of the West.
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 23 July 2013 20: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: Che
        dad wrote history at the table

        Well, they offended Hekatey and the rest of the poor fellow

        Gannon of Carthage - Islands Happy (Canary), Evening Horn, South Horn, Gulf of Rio de Oro - Herodotus visits Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Phenicia, Arabia, Babylonia, Persia, Media, Colchis, the Caspian Sea, Scythia and Thrace - Pifey explores the shores of Iberia and Celtish, the English Channel, the island of Albion, the Orkadian (Orkney) islands, the land of Thule - Nehar travels around the Asian coast from the Indus to the Persian Gulf - Eudoxus gets to know the western coast of Africa - Strabo travels to Inner Asia, Egypt, Greece and Italy
        1. Che
          Che 23 July 2013 22: 51 New
          +4
          By the way, the Canary Islands were inhabited by white people (Guanches), where in Africa they came from remained a mystery, as they were cut out by the colonialists.
    3. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 23 July 2013 20: 41 New
      +1
      The main thing is not to slip with the Fritz and not to think of yourself as an Aryan race and to begin to teach everyone how the Yankees do with the Anglo-Saxons.
  13. Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 23 July 2013 20: 39 New
    +3
    Why are stone shells? ... because iron was very expensive, and it was difficult to mine and smelter, and the guns themselves became "gold" as a result and eventually replaced the core, consumables with cheap stone and more. After that, the conditions for the extraction of iron improve and as a result, its cost is reduced, as a result of which it becomes a charge that can be spent.
    Remember the computers. in 70-80 it was like a new car, now it can be assembled for 10-15 thousand as a whole. What about cell phones? just components become cheaper and ....
  14. taseka
    taseka 23 July 2013 20: 45 New
    +5
    I doubt about hyper duper plasma, but about the shaft on 2,5 thousand km. this is perhaps a class - and in direct why this is not in the history books, it seems not the Chinese Wall, but our Russian !!!
  15. Fantomac
    Fantomac 23 July 2013 20: 54 New
    +2
    man made shells of stone - already nonsense! And what is surprising here, it’s just hard to mine metal.
  16. Semurg
    Semurg 23 July 2013 21: 07 New
    +2
    As a version, the Zavolzhsky rampart was built against the Slavs who settled to the east, and the Chinese wall against the Chinese who settled to the north and west, but did not fulfill their functions and the Russians met with the Chinese on the Amur. laughing
    1. avt
      avt 23 July 2013 23: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: Semurg
      As a version, the Zavolzhsky rampart was built against the Slavs who settled east,

      It would have rolled, but the trouble is, where to put the famous ramparts in Ukraine? If memory serves in Soviet times, they were called Snakes. And again, it does not fit with the heroic past of the invincible steppes. laughing They all beat in one fell swoop, flew into the city and set the yoke, according to classical history. Or was it easier for them to migrate than to bother with fortifications on such a scale? According to nomadic classical culture.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 24 July 2013 12: 24 New
        +2
        Quote: avt
        Quote: Semurg
        As a version, the Zavolzhsky rampart was built against the Slavs who settled east,

        It would have rolled, but the trouble is, where to put the famous ramparts in Ukraine? If memory serves in Soviet times, they were called Snakes. And again, it does not fit with the heroic past of the invincible steppes. laughing They all beat in one fell swoop, flew into the city and set the yoke, according to classical history. Or was it easier for them to migrate than to bother with fortifications on such a scale? According to nomadic classical culture.

        I agree that these walls were built by farmers, but not necessarily the Slavs, as far as I remember from the classical history, the Slavic ancestral home somewhere on the territory of the Poles from where they began to settle south and east. Nomads cyclopical defenses to build into scrap a waste of effort and money.
        1. avt
          avt 24 July 2013 12: 43 New
          0
          Quote: Semurg
          I agree these walls were built by farmers, but not necessarily the Slavs, as far as I remember from the classical history, the ancestral home of the Slavs somewhere in the Poles from where they began to settle south and east

          In general, the classical theory through gritted teeth already recognizes that resettlement came from Asia Minor and somehow, in accordance with the classical history, all the resettlement of peoples went westward, this is about the different Huns, all sorts of Atillians, Bulgars, that’s what became Bulgarians. But the movement to the East, again according to classical studies, it seems like they didn’t even hear and never heard of Ermak’s campaign before. laughing By the way, what kind of mysterious farmers are these builders, what, the "classical" history says about this unknown people? laughing Well, thanks for the territory of Poland laughing - and then they are trying to drive us into the swamps more and more, well, there is no place for people from the country of the gardariks - the country of cities, by the way, and not the villages. This is, again, according to classical Scandinavian recollections.
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 24 July 2013 15: 29 New
            +2
            The ancestral home of the Slavs Asia Minor? .According to relocations only to the west, I don’t agree. The Slavs constantly went east and Svyatoslav conducted their campaign along the beaten track. The Goths also seemed to move east until they ran into nomadic people and did not run west. And other "Germans" constantly went east and Germanized or destroyed the Western Slavs. it turns out that migration was going in different directions and not just to the west. According to the author, the Slavs or proto they came from Asia to the west. If the homeland of Asia Minor made a detour around the Caucasus and the Caspian went to the Volga built a defensive wall then moved west and settled in the Dnieper?
            1. avt
              avt 24 July 2013 16: 12 New
              0
              Quote: Semurg
              Svyatoslav spent his campaign along the beaten track.

              Svyatoslav made a one-off trip to the Khazars, who lived quite comfortably there and in full agreement with the northern Slavic peoples of Vyatichi, Krivichy, took two cities and went to Kiev, and died after going to Bulgaria, where he generally wanted to stay in a new team , center "in its new capital - Dorostol, but it didn’t grow together, and in Kiev the place was already taken, well, where about in the Khortitsa region. Well, where did he move to?
              Quote: Semurg
              The ancestral home of the Slavs Asia Minor?

              There is such a new classical version of the settlement of peoples up to the Atlantic, but I do not say this, that’s what the ancient Georgians “migrated” to the Ibkri Peninsula - yes, the Basques are very similar in culture and language.
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 24 July 2013 20: 34 New
                +2
                I read somewhere about the Russians whom the Khazars hired for the war against the Muslims, and I write that Svyatoslav walked along the beaten track, and the reason seems to be to find out who will pay tribute to the Vyatichi and Krivichi. I don’t know anything about the Georgians and Basques. As the Georgians say it must be said that their ancestors inhabited all of Europe but wild tribes came and destroyed the peaceful Georgians and their remains were preserved only in the mountains of the Caucasus and the Pyrenees. laughing
                1. avt
                  avt 24 July 2013 21: 37 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Semurg
                  and the reason seemed to find out who will take tribute with Vyatichi and Krivichi.

                  Yes, and this too, a tribute - a tax on military support, the Kiyans poked their hands at the Drevlyans and Olga figured out, but such a number did not work with the ancestors of the land of Moscow. laughing They specifically explained where and with whom it was necessary to negotiate or understand. And with regards to Georgians - there are Basque discs with unknown letters, they are read in ancient Georgian as Etruscan letter in Russian with a southern, Ukrainian accent. One Georgian in the days of the USSR unsuccessfully tried to convey the “classic” translation. It says that after a severe earthquake from starvation, 200 thousand -300 of them left in the western direction and they slowed down in the Pyrenees Mountains. So natural disasters of all kinds are a very specific reason, besides of war, to leave your place of residence and not to return. Here in the case of war there is a chance of revenge, but if you have a steppe turned into a desert - you’ll become a forest resident if you’re not tired of living, and if you know nothing and eat forest, you’ll go to a crusade, to more successful neighbors, and co-religionists in Constantinople, to rob. By the way, in the story of Ilya Muromets, I was always annoyed when the Nightingale, the robber, was portrayed as a crooked-legged, short-legged, with a fluid mustache basurman-Khazarin. Ilya then went to serve through forests on the ground Vyatichi, and in the woods it’s good to talk with a whistle, well, the women whine on a high note. So Ilyusha has completely forgotten the blue-eyed blondes that are from the oaks, from on top of the passing flew. laughing It was later that Petya No. 1 wore out oak groves on ships, before these holy places were taboo, people knew the price of wood. laughing
                  1. Thunderbolt
                    Thunderbolt 24 July 2013 22: 01 New
                    +1
                    Quote: avt
                    their 200-300 thousand went west and they slowed down in the Pyrenees
                    Morphologically, the Basque language resembles the language of the Iberians (the oldest population of Spain), but is not its descendant, but rather a distant relative.
                    The territory of Iberia (Georgia) from ancient times was inhabited by several kindred tribes, which the ancient authors called collective “Iberians”
                    These are the parallels
                  2. Semurg
                    Semurg 24 July 2013 22: 26 New
                    +4
                    about nightingales, it’s just someone will give a stranger in their forest a bribe to take from passers-by. On the account of the inscriptions on the disks it turns out the same story with inscriptions on stone steles in the steppes of Mongolia that are not understandable to the Mongols and understandable to the Turkic-speaking. In general, it’s clear that almost all peoples wandered around the world so that mother don’t grieve (it turns out all the nomads were just pastoralists and other farmers) and nature was a carrot and stick. Now, it seems like civilization has curbed nature, but it seems to me that nature has not shown a real whip to their naughty kids.
                    1. Thunderbolt
                      Thunderbolt 25 July 2013 13: 15 New
                      0
                      The same Dzungars, part of which settled in modern Kalmykia, turned on others the vicissitudes of fate and the search for a better share, right up to the state of New Jersey (USA).
  17. Semurg
    Semurg 23 July 2013 21: 07 New
    +1
    As a version, the Zavolzhsky rampart was built against the Slavs who settled to the east, and the Chinese wall against the Chinese who settled to the north and west, but did not fulfill their functions and the Russians met with the Chinese on the Amur. laughing
  18. Nayhas
    Nayhas 23 July 2013 21: 18 New
    +8
    This is some kind of shame ... in the language of Schwonder. The author is not just illiterate, but also, to put it mildly, inquisitive.
    "These are traces of the fort, which was here, but which is completely hidden, flush with the ground." - no one tore it off, the ramparts were in place, well, they sprinkled, so the wind and rain do their job, Pokrovskaya fortress is primarily earthen ramparts that have been preserved, unlike wooden structures.
    “Who was defeated in that war? Who defended themselves inside the Siberian fortress? We don’t know yet” - the Dzhungars were defeated, though it was not the Russians who defeated them, but they built a fort to control the steppes from them, Pokrovskaya fortress was built on the shore of a fresh lake, the only one in the area, the rest of the reservoirs are salty. Fortress defended by service people, as in the Captain's daughter. It is a pity only the author does not know about this, and does not want to, that's for sure.
    The following are pictures of the Penza serif line that was built from the raids of the Krymchaks, and therefore looks to the west, the author does not know the specific history. There is nothing supernatural in the earthen rampart, it would be interesting if the logs remained then the author would also be amazed "who has chopped up such a forest in such numbers? Anyway, the ancient arias! ..."
    In general, the author blew himself away, showing that he absolutely did not know the history of Russia ... Well, he certainly never held a shovel with an ax ...
  19. valokordin
    valokordin 23 July 2013 21: 28 New
    +3
    Now, if the ancestors got up from the graves and looked at Vovanov, Tolyanov, Yegorov, Mishek, Evgenysek, Borisikov, and others who did not remember the kinship, they would probably hang the ancestors who produced them. They would certainly honor Vissarion. As for the knowledge of the material, forgive him for naivety, it is not fatal
  20. dizelniy
    dizelniy 23 July 2013 21: 31 New
    +5
    The problems of the country's history are obvious, Arkaim, the striking similarity of Old Russian and some other languages, artifacts, all this requires a revision of the "German" version of our history. Without this, there can be no concept of the country's development, they will point to our "backwardness" despite the fact that we are going our own way. We should not be embarrassed, we have nothing to blush for. We did not have slavery. True history is the foundation of our true rebirth as a people, with an idea and a clear purpose instead of today's rubbish.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 31 July 2013 01: 32 New
      +2
      Arkaim has nothing to do with the Slavs. These are the cities of settled Iranian-speaking Scythians, who lived from the Black Sea to Altai long before the ancestors of the Eastern Slavs moved to this territory. And their descendants were not included in the Russian people, but turned into Scythian nomads after they tamed a horse and abandoned their many cities. Engaging in cattle breeding in the Eurasian steppe and living on horse meat is much more effective than sowing cereals. A little later (at the beginning of the new era), the Scythian nomads mixed without a trace with the proto-Turkic nomads who came from the present Mongolia and Siberia.
  21. Setrac
    Setrac 23 July 2013 22: 41 New
    +1
    Beautiful theory, just what about wooden guns? Are they also part of plasma weapons? This is probably a special elven bioplasma.
  22. sashka
    sashka 23 July 2013 23: 28 New
    0
    Apparently we have already forgotten how to build. But "bury" is no stranger. In the order of things. (National game) What next? In the "educational" purposes to increase the price of vodka and tobacco ?? There are no other options ... However, the crisis. The truth is not clear why ..
  23. Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 23 July 2013 23: 46 New
    -1
    Guys watching komenty ... did you hear yourself? Aryans Mlyn .... Pride is bad, it blinds your eyes and makes you go blind without letting you see whirlpools and cliffs.
  24. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 24 July 2013 02: 56 New
    +2
    History is the science of the development of society.
    BUT ... how do you want the power of those who want them to be played up by scientists in political speculation ... And here come some bizarre, but fashionable historical theories and versions.

    Regarding the article:
    About fortresses and ramparts is interesting and how I feel, basically, close enough to the truth.
    BUT they torn down the fortresses on the conquerors, and theirs were either ordered to them, or allowed to dispose of the building material.
    By the way, not all castles were preserved in the west - many were torn down during the approval of unlimited monarchies (for example, in France).
    Our fortresses and temples were rarely completely destroyed. In old cities, something. Yes, it’s from the old days.
    ... Except for those territories that temporarily fell under Catholic dominion. In Western Ukraine, traces can not be found from the Ancient and famous Galicia-Volyn principality.
    But about the plasma ... no words, for there are no artifacts in support of these theories.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 24 July 2013 13: 47 New
      0
      Quote: Sergey S.
      History is the science of the development of society.

      History is the sharpest weapon of propaganda, this is how it should be considered, NOBODY writes the truth.
  25. EdwardTich68
    EdwardTich68 24 July 2013 04: 25 New
    +1
    If this borosopisnik would be born back, the world would become cleaner.
  26. Magadan
    Magadan 24 July 2013 05: 59 New
    +3
    Another nonsense of "historians" -alternatives. author, enumeration. I don’t know what happened there in the Omsk Region; personally, I was in Yakutia in its most bearish corners. Communicated with the Yukagirs, the indigenous people who now live in ancient fortifications and villages built by the Cossacks. I did not hear any tales about certain civilizations that had happened before the Cossacks who came to Yakutia 300 years ago from local Yukagirs. Nowhere in the Far East were any prehistoric civilizations discovered as much as the “our" neo-"historians" paid for by the envious west.
    It's just that the West is very dumb for its rotten history, full of blood and humiliation of other peoples. Nothing better than rolling a barrel on the Russians now, these homosexuals did not come up. So they pay all morons for such articles.
  27. ratuld
    ratuld 24 July 2013 06: 29 New
    +3
    Better than genetics, no other science will ever answer historical questions.
    Almost the entire territory of present-day Russia and the USSR is occupied by the main male genetic haplogroup R1A1. Therefore, all the insinuations and "conclusions" of near-minded people about some alien aliens, Tatars, and the rest of the pseudoscientific nonsense should be gradually completed.
    Almost one people live here. From the Himalayas to Murmansk and from Vladivostok to Kaliningrad.
  28. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 24 July 2013 08: 17 New
    +6
    The history of our people and country was falsified by the Germans brought by Peter-1, whom M.V. Lomonosov fought not only in scientific disputes, but also with fists confirming their truth. in the West, and they achieved much, almost turning us into "Ivanovs who do not remember kinship" (at least most of our historians).
    1. Very old
      Very old 24 July 2013 13: 54 New
      0
      It’s empty. Do not rip us off. We remember ourselves. Europe also remembers what it cannot forgive us. And I tell them ...... YOU!
  29. Electryk
    Electryk 24 July 2013 08: 44 New
    +4
    The very concept of history as a science appeared relatively recently - this is the first. The second is that she corresponded and corrected always for the sake of power. (what is happening to this day) And the most striking thing is that the whole history of the Russian state and Russia was written by foreigners (look and find out). And there are always more questions than answers to them. History is not a dogma, but just a "history." Poor, poor Mikhailo Lomonosov!
  30. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 24 July 2013 09: 58 New
    +2
    Considering that today, before our eyes, the history of the Great Patriotic War is being rewritten, it is not surprising that earlier events have already been rewritten.
  31. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 24 July 2013 09: 58 New
    -1
    And by the way it seems to me (well, this is IMHO mine) that the car is wrong about the 17-19th century. Everything was too grand. And majestic. Perhaps these are really the remnants of former fortifications erected many thousands of years ago to defend against a merciless enemy. And here atlantes with hyperboreas somehow come to mind ...
    I also heard the story that they say we are the descendants of the Hyperboreans, but the current "gay men" are the descendants of the Atlanteans. And therefore they hate us so fiercely. It is genetically already ...
    And by the way, if you look at the whole picture, not fragments, it becomes clear, and so-called. The great Wall of China. And what is the VKS for defense from the east, and this Siberian defensive line is from the West. But the enemy came from the West, made his way, and destroyed these fortifications, and the eastern ones remained ... Not?
  32. MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 24 July 2013 10: 00 New
    +2
    a strange article and a strange train of thought - it seems to start normally, but ends with frank fantasy, but nevertheless set a plus for the next call to study real history, and not the one that the German “historians” left us (it would be better if they rummaged in their history than in our).
  33. MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 24 July 2013 10: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Magadan
    I personally was in Yakutia in its most bearish corners. Communicated with the Yukagirs, the indigenous people who now live in ancient fortifications and villages built by the Cossacks. I did not hear any tales about certain civilizations that had happened before the Cossacks who came to Yakutia 300 years ago from local Yukagirs.

    with Yakutia is not so simple. How did the Yukaghirs know what was in their territory before them, because they appeared there only about 1 thousand years ago (I could be wrong, but still only in AD), and people close to modern were already at least 300 thousand there .year ago (scientifically proven). There are no connections with the appearance of Yakuts in the territory of Yakutia - if we analyze well-known data, it turns out that the Yakuts traveled to their new homeland for about 500-600 years, but if even a little less, it would still be too long. But the most interesting is that those who delve too deeply and hard in the history of Yakutia do not live long or serious problems appear.
  34. sergey261180
    sergey261180 24 July 2013 13: 02 New
    +2
    Only the ledges of the towers look in the opposite direction - to the west. It turns out that the defenders of the wall defended themselves from invasion from the west?
    Here he (sorry) pi ... specifically and does not blush! He even brought a photograph where the protrusions are directed to the left. Here’s a space shot of GoogleEarth. All ledges are directed east! They built a wall in 1734-1736. Again, the damned west is to blame for everything?
    1. sergey261180
      sergey261180 24 July 2013 13: 04 New
      +2
      Kondurcha Fortress
  35. homosum20
    homosum20 24 July 2013 14: 11 New
    +1
    Nothing new. I am talking with my daughter - she is in her second year - I fall into a stupor. Despite the fact that from childhood she made her read, serious issues were discussed together, including on history. She doesn’t care. She knows that limes are bastards. She clearly knows that the U.S. are the enemies of Russia. And it doesn’t shake her especially. At least, it shakes much more, I will give or not grandmas on a new motor-suit. She knows this without emotion. This is not her problem.
    And what do we want, when mu.dak in the person of the TV presenter practically calls Zuornov bullshit and idle bream live - directly, rudely exposing him as a fool? To the barking of the goat-bearded "Vasisualiev Lokhankins" who in their life did nothing but write pages 100-200 in the form of dissertations that no one read, and the main event of which was the banquet after the defense? The order should be given already for the desire to restore (or create - I do not care) the history of the Russians. How do you think the speed of the bullet depends on the color of the coat of the target?
    The same story with Bushkov. With his cycle of secrets of Russia.
    I deeply respect Putin. But the significance of Russian history is much more important than the role of the dollar on the world stage. Anyway (for me) it will all end with the confrontation of a bullet from my sniper rifle with the material of American or lime body armor. For most of us, differences are possible, but the essence will remain the same.
    The war is on, and it began much earlier than we, our fathers, grandfathers were born (read Blok: you’re millions of us - darkness and darkness and darkness ....), I think, even before Peter, and if you take the Poles as part of Europe (the vanguard of the Swedes) - during the time of the Terrible and the Tatar-Mongolian Mongol yoke (which was, if you recall that the "Tatar" is not a self-name, they called us that.)
    There is no justice. There is no justice. And in the guerrilla war, the one who remembers his roots wins. But first, they need to be remembered - or created.
    Without a difference.
  36. karmyshev
    karmyshev 24 July 2013 15: 08 New
    +1
    Mromanovich rightly remarked that engaging in history can be unhealthy. But this does not apply to all historians, namely those who "dig" the history of the peoples who lived in the territory from the Urals to the Pacific Ocean not in line with traditional history, but relying on the Slavic-Aryan Vedas, and, apparently, comes closest to the truth. I look at the article impressed with books on the history of V. M. Dyomin, V. Chudinov, T. Fomenko and N.V. Levashov, and other so-called alternative specialists. About the guns in the article - I am silent, but the rest is useful to read, you look and questions will appear. Fomenko and Nosovsky are also useful to read, but their books cover only the last thousand years, but “Russia in Crooked Mirrors” by N. V. Levashov covers the whole history of mankind. And no matter how you treat it, the bottom line will be a lot of useful things. He disturbed so many with his views that he was killed a year ago ... And this book was banned two years ago, as inciting ethnic hatred. Yes, he showed the history of the Jews unvarnished. For that, see, and suffered.
  37. Horde
    Horde 24 July 2013 19: 51 New
    0
    this article is cut to the very tomatoes, this article does not give the necessary impression that the study of serif lines, as well as the forts of Romanovskaya RUSSIA against TARTAR, makes.
    here is the real article
    http://kadykchanskiy.livejournal.com/127704.html

  38. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 25 July 2013 15: 07 New
    0
    Quote: Setrac
    History is the sharpest weapon of propaganda, this is how it should be considered, NOBODY writes the truth.

    I agree with the first proposition, in principle. For science is also a powerful propaganda factor, designed for the most advanced members of society. For this reason, technical and scientific journals are so popular. If the country is on the rise, the “Youth Technique” and “Science and Life” themselves agitate for the Soviet regime much more efficiently than the dim-witted propagandists.
    As for the TRUTH, I agree too. The truth in the final version is unattainable, always beyond what has been said will remain something that someone calls concealment or fiction. But conscientious scientists write the truth, only each time this truth is strangely transformed by the distant fighters of the invisible front. So scholars have nothing to do with it. Only here are few of them, real scholars, and few people read scientific articles and monographs on historical science, most of all relate to journalism and popular presentation.
  39. Gavril
    Gavril 26 July 2013 10: 36 New
    0
    Or maybe those nations built the walls from the Russians? The fact remains that today the Russian nation dominates in Russia, "from the extreme left to the extreme right," if you look at the map.