Military Review

On ethnic history, our Fatherland and not only

83
On ethnic history, our Fatherland and not only

Ethnic история, as science, differs from other stories in its discreteness (discontinuity). This means that the existence of each ethnic group has its beginning and end. The concept of ethnos has been known for a long time, but only in the 20 century by Leo Nikolayevich Gumilyov a theory of ethnogenesis was created - the science of birth, life, disease, and death of ethnic groups. Like humans. Ethnicity according to Gumilyov: “a steady, naturally formed group of people, opposing themselves to all other similar groups, which is determined by the feeling of complementarity (one’s own), and characterized by a peculiar stereotype of behavior, which regularly changes in historical time”. In each phase of ethnogenesis, ethnos behaves differently: since ethnogenesis is an entropy process, therefore the drive tension in the system, depending on the age of the ethnos, is different. Each ethnos is to some extent internally heterogeneous: within it there are subethnos, consortia, convictions that can arise and disintegrate, and the members of the ethnic group, as a whole, do not lose their sense of unity. Groups of ethnos close to each other constitute a superethnos. ”For example: the Cossacks living in the Caucasus were very similar in their life and customs to the inhabitants of the Caucasus, but they considered themselves Russian. So the Cossacks are a subethnos belonging to the Russian ethnos.


Attempts to define ethnos through a number of signs: as a language, culture, territorial unity, the self-name constantly failed, because the main attribute that determines the belonging of an ethnos is: who they consider themselves.

The main thing in L. Gumilyov's theory is such a concept as passionarity - “the energy of the living substance of the biosphere, appearing in the form of a mutation, during periods of calm or diminished activity of the sun”. Cosmos is involved in the micromutation of people, like all other living beings, and because of this, life on planet Earth does not stop. Some scientists believe that this is the business of the Most High. Passionality is the appearance in a certain place, at a certain time, of people of “long will”, to put it differently: as a result of the impulsive drive, there are people who aspire and are able to withstand prolonged exertion and overvoltage, make sacrifices, die for their Fatherland, make great deeds and exploits. These people have the ability to sacrifice themselves for a great purpose, often an illusory one.

The ethnic history of any country — the history of the peoples inhabiting it — cannot be viewed as we consider economic relations, political conflicts, the history of culture and thought. Therefore, the concept of progressive movement or progress to such natural phenomena as ethnogenesis is unacceptable.

Ethnically, the history of Russia cannot be imagined as a linear process going from Rurik to Putin. The events of the ethnogenesis of the peoples of our Fatherland constitute the historical fabric of life of at least two different superethnos. Therefore, it is necessary to distinguish the history of Ancient Kievan Rus from (from 9 to the 13 century, including the history of Novgorod to its fall in the 15 century) and the history of Moscow Russia from the 13 century to this day. And the key period of understanding the national historical destiny is three centuries: 13, 14, 15, - when Russian reality was formed by superimposing two different processes of ethnogenesis. The final phase of ethnogenesis is obscuration of Kievan Rus, with an initial incubation period in the history of the future Russia. This combination gave the tragic tint of the time of Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Vasily the Dark.

Did contemporaries know these great sovereigns that they live in an era of changing traditions? Of course not. The collapse of the old Russian statehood, the feuds of the princes, the Lithuanian and Tatar raids, the need to pay the Khan "way out" and princely duties. It seemed as if time could not be harder. From the point of view of historiography (description of events), everything is correct, but this if we use the methods of the humanities. Analyzing the ethnic history of Russia - Russia must take into account the ethnogenesis of all the peoples of our Motherland. Each of these ethnic groups, having its own ethnic age and corresponding passionate potential, had a powerful influence on the course of the ethnogenesis of the entire superethnos. And, only taking into account the whole spectrum of ethnic contacts and their social consequences, one can come closer to the true concept of the past of the Fatherland.

Moscow did not continue the traditions of Kiev, as did Novgorod. On the contrary, it destroyed the traditions of veche liberty and princely feuds, replacing them with other norms of behavior, largely borrowed from the Mongols: a system of strict discipline, ethnic tolerance and deep religiousness.

In contrast to the cultural tradition, the ethnic tradition is not the continuity of the dead forms created by man, but the unity of the behavior of living people, supported by their drive (tension in the system of the ethnos). Monuments of culture tell us far from all about the people who created them. Of course, we cannot but admire the Sistine Madonna Raphael, and David Michelangelo. But they will not tell us that it was at this time that Western Europeans became a daily occupation of massacres of people.

It was the new system of behavior created on the old ideological basis - Orthodoxy - that allowed Russia to say and, I hope, it will also have its say in the history of Eurasia. This continent for the historically foreseeable period united three times. At first it was united by the Turks who created the Khaganate (principality), which covered the land from the Yellow Sea to the Black. Mongols came to replace the Turks from Siberia. Then, after a period of complete disintegration and disintegration, Russia took the initiative: from the 15 century, the Russians moved east and came to the Pacific Ocean. The new power has acted as the "heiress" of the Turkic kaganate and the Mongol ulus.

United Eurasia, led by Russia, has traditionally, always, resisted: in the West - Catholic Europe, in the Far East - China, in the south - the Muslim world. In contrast to the landscapes of Western Europe, the landscapes of Eurasia are very diverse. But for any nation, links with the native landscape, which determines the economic system, are extremely important. Ethnicity is adapted to its landscape, it is convenient to him in it. If the landscape changes radically, then the ethnos changes radically.

The diversity of landscapes has a beneficial effect on the ethnogenesis of peoples. Each was an acceptable and dear place: the Russians mastered the river valleys, the Finno-Ugric peoples and Ukrainians - watershed areas, the Turks and Mongols - the steppe, and the circumpolar peoples - the tundra. And with a large variety of geographical conditions for the peoples of Eurasia, unification has always proved to be more beneficial than separation. Disintegration deprived of strength, resilience; to disunite in the conditions of Eurasia meant to make oneself dependent on neighbors, by no means always disinterested and merciful. Therefore, in Eurasia, political culture has developed its own, original vision of the ways and goals of development.

Eurasian peoples built their common statehood, based on the principle of the primacy of the rights of each people to a certain way of life. In Russia, this principle was embodied in the concept of conciliarity and was observed quite rigorously. Thus, the rights of the individual were ensured. When joining the Volga region, the Urals and Western Siberia, in the army of the Moscow tsars, along with the regiments of the foreign system, archers, noble cavalry, appeared "lower strength" - the nomads, who in maneuverable wars were very successful. It was with their help that Aleksei Mikhailovich freed Ukraine from Poland and thereby saved it from destruction.

Historical experience has shown that while every people retained the right to be themselves, a united Eurasia successfully restrained the onslaught of both Western Europe, and China, and Muslims. Unfortunately, in the 20 century, we abandoned this healthy and traditional policy for our country, began to be guided by European principles - we tried to make everyone the same. Mechanical transfer to the conditions of Russia of the West European traditions of behavior gave little good, and this is not surprising. After all, Russian superethnos appeared on 500 years later. Both we and Western Europeans have always felt this difference, realized and never considered each other as "our own". Since we are younger than 500, no matter how we study the European experience, we cannot now achieve the well-being and morals characteristic of Europe. Our age, our level of passionarity suggests completely different imperatives of behavior. When we imitate Europe, we become like a little girl, when she, trying to be like an aunt to appear adult, wears Tetina a hat and high-heeled shoes.

Of course, it is necessary to study the European experience, but one should not forget that this is just someone else’s experience. The so-called civilized countries belong to another superethnos, previously called the "Christian world." It originated in the 9 century, and for more than a millennium came to the natural finale of its ethnic history. They are already in the phase of obscuration, and the next phase of ethnogenesis is relict (homeostasis). Relic can exist without developing for as long as desired, if there is no threat of conquering it from the outside. Or, if a new passionary impulse does not occur, prompting not the regeneration of the old, but the birth of a new ethnos.

Today, the aliens are trying to “introduce us into the circle of civilized nations,” that is, tear us away from our native roots, destroy our ethnic tradition and dissolve in someone else’s super-ethnos alien to the world. But, unfortunately, nothing is given for nothing. It is necessary to realize that the price of such integration will be the complete abandonment of its national tradition and subsequent assimilation. For some reason, we don’t want to admit the obvious: the basis of ethnic relations lies outside the sphere of consciousness - it’s in emotions: likes and dislikes, love and hate. And the direction of these sympathies - antipathies is quite due to each ethnic group. It is impossible to make love by order of the ruler! You can evaluate this phenomenon as you please, but this will not make it any less real.

What is nostalgia? This is a complex of negative mental phenomena caused by the separation of a person from his ethno-landscape environment. Gumilyov explains this state of mind, on the basis of ideas about the ethnic field, which has its own unique frequency of oscillations for each superethnos. The ethnic field is impossible to see - we feel it.

It is impossible to consider the ethnic history of the Ukrainian sub ethnic group separately from the Russian ethnic group, since we are “links of one chain”, the main elements of the Eurasian (Russian) superethnos. We, Eurasians and Eastern Ukrainians, including, today are about seven hundred years old. According to the theory of passionarity of L. Gumilev, each superethnos passes through five main phases of development in the following order:

1) lifting phase (including latent incubation phase)

2) is the akmatic phase, which has the largest number of passionaries in the system, always ending with overheating.

3) breakdown - the phase of a sharp reduction in passionate tension, accompanied by a split of the ethnic field. In the fracture a large number of subpassionariums appear - individuals of the energy-deficient type. These are people who, due to their inability to absorb a sufficient amount of energy from the environment, cannot fully adapt to the environment.

Subpassionality (lack of energy) is manifested in the inability to restrain instinctive lust, asocial behavior, parasitism, lack of care for offspring. People of this type are found in all eras and in all ethnic groups. They are called vagrants, lumpen proletarians, niello, the dregs of society, tramps, homeless, etc. Usually they accumulate in large cities, where there is an opportunity to live without working, but to parasitize and have fun. Such a concentration of subpassionarians leads to a tremendous increase in alcoholism, situational prostitution, drug addiction, natural disturbances.

4) inertial phase - characterized by some increase in the level of drive and then a gradual decrease. State power and social institutions are being strengthened, there is an intensive accumulation of material and cultural values, and an active transformation of the surrounding landscape. This is the most favorable period of development for harmonious people (ordinary inhabitants). A law-abiding, efficient person becomes dominant in the inertia phase. Usually, in the inertial phase there is a powerful centralized leadership, able to pacify internal conflicts and the ethnos does a tremendous job, which is useful for culture and sometimes harmful for the enclosing landscape. Culture and order in this phase are so perfect that they seem to be eternal to contemporaries. People do not know, after the "golden autumn" come "twilight" - the phase of obscuration.

5) In the phase of obscuration, an ethnos exists at the expense of the material values ​​and skills accumulated during the previous inertial phase. The proliferated subpassionarii make any constructive activity impossible, requiring only the satisfaction of their insatiable needs. Anyone who retains a sense of duty, diligence and conscience is condemned. Imperative subpassionary: - “Day, yes my,” which reflects their complete inability to forecast. As a result, the social organism decays: corruption is legitimized, crime spreads, the army loses its combat capability, cynical adventurers in power play on the mood of the crowd. Depopulation is occurring, the population is significantly reduced by the end of the phase. The ethnic system loses its resistance and can become easy prey for more passionate neighbors. The phase of obscuration precedes most often the death of an ethnos. Moreover, the homeostasis system can reach an insignificant healthy part of the ethnos, preserved in the "bloody darkness" of the era of obscuration, when the life of the ethnos will depend on the host landscape and subpassionaries that are not able to work will be quickly expelled.

Each phase lasts about 300 years. Thus, the full life cycle of an ethnos, if no displacement occurs and its death, is from 1200-1500 years.

The first two phases of ethnogenesis, incubation and acmatic, we have successfully passed and today we continue to be in fracture, where we are from the 19 century. Today our society is sick, and this disease of the ethnos is age-related.

Before the first inauguration in May 2000, the future president of Russia came to the Pskov-Caves Monastery to see the elder, confessor, father John. The conversation in the old man’s cell lasted for more than an hour. Serious, excited and even a little confused, as it seemed to me then, the future president of Russia V. Putin said: “We have almost no time left. We need to hurry - we have very little time. "

A prolonged illness depletes the body (the ethnic system) and a shift can occur (the transition from fracture to obscuration, bypassing the inertial phase), as a result of which the ethnos perishes.

One of the signs is that the fracture phase began in our super-ethnos - the Decembrist uprising in 1825. This event is the breaking of system links. When not the people, but the Europeanized elite of Russia, for the first time spoke out against the Russian autocracy, the foundations are the foundations of the Russian state.

In the phase of fracture, various anti-systems flourish, which penetrated Russia as early as the beginning of the 16 century, especially flourish. The first anti-system tried to take root in the emerging Russia in the form of the “heresy of the Judaizers” in Novgorod. This anti-church movement had nothing to do with the Jews. Heretics actively resorted to fraud. The Psalter is preserved from them, where its first pages represent an exemplary Slavic Psalter, but then there is a substitution with special texts developed within the anti-system and, naturally, have nothing in common with the original source. Thus, a literate but poorly educated person sincerely thought that he was reading the Psalter. When the heretics were captured, they repented and even repented. But after some time, the same “repentant” organized not only in Novgorod, but also in Moscow new circles of heretics, where the grandson of Grand Duke Ivan the Third, Dmitriy and his wife Elena Voloshanka (she was from Wallachia), as well as Dyak Ivan Third (today corresponds to the Minister of Foreign Affairs) - Fedor Kuritsyn. And then many high-ranking officials were executed by the European execution, from where the heresy arrived: the heretics were burned at the stake. Dmitry and Elena were put in prison, where they died.

One of the following antisystems was oprichnina. For the emergence of oprichnina there were no social or political prerequisites. Oprichnina was created by Ivan the Terrible in a fit of insanity in 1565. and it officially existed for seven years. The task of the guardsmen was "to plague the sovereign with treason." Define the "treason" were themselves guardsmen. Thus, they could kill any person, declaring him a traitor.

The oprichniki were hired "free atoms" - people who were separated from their social groups, their families, from their super-ethnic systems. They had to make fun of the monks way of life. The mildest of the punishments of the guardsmen were the beheading and hanging, but, in addition, the guardsmen burned at the stake, froze in the snow, impaled. The boyar’s execution, the guardsmen massacred his courtyards, and took the peasants to themselves and transferred them to their own lands.

The main content of oprichnina became completely meaningless murder for the sake of murder. The most terrible characteristic of the oprichnina is that both the king and his guardsmen were absolutely sure of the goodness of their monstrous misdeeds. The king sought to kill not only the body, but also to "kill the soul": the bodies were cut into small pieces because the deceased could not appear on the Last Judgment without a body. Then he entered the names of his victims in synodic, served requiem services for them, and sincerely considered himself an example of an Orthodox Christian. Ivan the Terrible considered royal grandeur equal to God’s and therefore deprived of the right to discuss his actions. Thus, in the oprichnina, we are confronted in a pure form by what is characteristic of each anti-system: good and evil change places.

Surprisingly, Russia was saved from oprichnina, surprisingly, the Crimean Khan, who violated the treaty with the tsar and attacked Moscow (1571). The Tatars fired on Moscow with incendiary arrows, and the city burned out in three hours. To repel the attack of the Crimeans on the orders of the king were called on everyone who can wear weapon and oprichniki including. And here that “special people” showed themselves: many deserted, others pretended to be sick. Defenseless assassins, they were unable to fight an armed and powerful enemy. And then the heads of the oprichnina leaders flew off on the fires.

The people, being in the akmatic phase, young and strong rejected the antisystems, struggled with them. Godunov, the people did not forgive his belonging to the oprichnina. A person who mocked the monastic saints, who committed murders and robberies could not be in power. All of their people called pomeshnikami, which means "darkness", non-existence. People always accurately determine the essence of the matter.

According to L. Gumilev, as I wrote earlier, “the antisystem is the system integrity of people with a negative outlook, which has developed a common world outlook for all members. All antisitemic ideologies and teachings are united by one central attitude: they deny the real world in its complexity and diversity for the sake of certain abstract goals. Either such teachings call for a fundamentally change the world, in fact, destroying it, or require a person to break out of the shackles of reality, destroying himself. Both in the limit gives one result - non-existence. The anti-system is characterized by a well-known secrecy of actions and such a method of struggle as a lie. Among the adepts of the anti-system, people with a futuristic sense of time prevail. The anti-system always seeks to destroy the ethnic tradition of the ethnos where it is being introduced. ”

Here is an interesting fact, the beginning of the 17 century, the Western superethnos, which is in fracture: in the process of the Counter-Reformation, when Europe was divided into Catholics and Protestants, Poland and Sweden had extremely tense relations. Poland became a stronghold of Catholicism, and Sweden adopted Lutheranism. But the king of Sweden, Zigismund Waza, was a zealous Catholic and the Swedes gladly replaced him with Lutheran. Then the Poles, in spite of the Swedes, chose Sigismund as their king. As a result, the Swedish king, who was on the Polish throne, began to prepare for war with Sweden! In this ease of changing kings, the phenomenon of superethnos is clearly manifested. With a strong political hostility, Poles and Swedes belong to the same super-ethnic world - Western Europe - and remain their own. The French in Germany, too, their own, and the Italians in Denmark, the Spaniards in Italy.

From the examples above, it is not surprising that in our Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. in fact, they fought with the whole of Europe, and not only with Germany.

Attempt to put, on the Moscow throne of the Polish king, we all know how it ended. Pole Marina Mnishek incorrectly attached herself to the icon: instead of attaching to the hand of Our Lady, “The Queen kisses the Virgin Mary on the lips!” This fact shocked the Russian people. The foreign Western imperative of the behavior of the Polish woman decided the further fate of the impostor: the Falsite were seized and killed.

The names of the rescuers of Russia Kozma Minin and Prince Dmitry Pozharsky know everything, but what they really had to do was very few people know. It is no coincidence that the salvation of Russia came from the north - eastern outskirts, to Nizhny Novgorod, because it suffered less than others from the Troubles. So, there were more passionate people there. The assembled Zemstvo Council unanimously adopted the decision proposed by Minin and Pozharsky that the Fatherland should be saved. Two things are needed for salvation: people - in the army and money. There were enough people, and money from the people of rich Nizhny Novgorod was driven. When Nizhny Novgorod was asked to lay out funds for the population, the population said that he had no money. They came up with all sorts of reasons: either the goods went to the Caspian Sea, the treasury in Arkhangelsk, the clerks went to Siberia and left no money. Then Kozma Minin, knowing the citizens well, threw a cry: “We are laying our wives and our children, but we will save the Russian land!” It seems no one was against. And if so, then Minin with elected people took power and put up for sale as slaves for the wives and children of all wealthy citizens of the city. The heads of families had nothing to do, how to go to the gardens and dig up the dice with the money hidden and buy out their own families. So Mother was saved - Russia.

In the so-called perestroika, unknown to the monument to Minin and Pozharsky, located on Red Square in Moscow, they attached a sheet with the open hand of Minin to the Kremlin with an open hand, “Look, prince, what a scum in the walls Kremlin started up! "They say the author was looking for a long time, but found no one.

Do not think that passionate people are necessarily high on the social ladder. Elected people who supported Kozma were passionaries. We do not know their names, because they are not leaders of the masses, but part of the people. It was these nameless passionaries, forcing their compatriots to forget laziness and cowardice, inducing their passionarity on them, which is passed on to their compatriots, if the passionary is nearby, provided for them, their families and their descendants. Sometimes they acted harshly, but you cannot explain to everyone that it is beneficial for Russia to exist independently and not turn into a colony of Poland and Sweden. Such unnamed passionaries represent the most important element in ethnogenesis. Acting not so much by force as by personal example, they show others a new stereotype of behavior, force the masses to perform absolutely necessary, urgent work. Discussions are a long, expensive, unpromising business: you cannot argue with everyone. But it is necessary to act only when passionarity has subsided, so that it becomes possible to organize people.

We, Ukraine, are a fragment of Russia that has broken away as a result of a split in the ethnic field. On the territory of present-day Ukraine, two subethnos and Russian ethnos live in their landscapes. These two subethnos: Western and Eastern Ukrainians belong to different superethnic systems. Eastern Ukrainians and Russians to the Eurasian superethnos, and western Ukrainians to Western Europe. Never agree on anything constructive with them. Because of the behavioral trivialities composed global likes and dislikes of ethnic and superethnic values. For example: some believe that a dog can and should be beaten, because this is a dog. And others are outraged: "How can you beat this beautiful, devoted animal"? And who will prove to someone in this dispute?

“A negative outlook, as well as a positive one, is associated with the creation of special philosophical, religious or political concepts, which are least intended to prove someone's rightness or conviction of opponents. After all, for the expression of attitude, logical evidence is not required. It is impossible to reconcile with logical arguments people whose views on the origin and essence of the world are polar, for they come from fundamentally different attitudes. Some people feel the material world and its diversity as a blessing, others as a clear evil. ” Lev Gumilyov

Gumilyov warned of aberration of proximity and range. He said that it is difficult to properly assess events occurring in the distant past: due to lack of information, due to aberration of range: when, in the depth of ages, even the most ambitious events seem to us "blurred" due to remoteness in time, or to be because they do not concern us personally. But it is even more difficult to properly assess the events of the recent past and what is happening to us at the present time. Most recent events seem to us such grandiose, which in history has never been and can not be in the future.

74 of the USSR is a very short period compared with the life of the ethnic group. And after our time, only our descendants can give a correct assessment of these events.

Forgive me, for my fantasies, the late Lev Nikolayevich, but I will gain impudence and try, from my point of view, to evaluate, based on the theory of Gumilyov, the events of the recent past and present, not looking at the proximity aberration. The third part will be devoted to this.
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  1. riding
    riding 9 July 2013 07: 46 New
    12
    According to Gumilyov, the Russian state has lived and flourished for another thousand years, and Lev Nikolayevich deeply regretted the collapse of the USSR, but how could the Eurasian perceive those events otherwise. But with Grozny, it’s not so simple, not everyone considers this king, one of the most highly educated and gifted people of his time, crazy.
    1. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB 9 July 2013 10: 17 New
      +4
      Very "strong" article, I read it with pleasure! Many things are shown as they are, without beauty and political correctness.
    2. Apologet.Ru
      Apologet.Ru 9 July 2013 11: 12 New
      +4
      The elected people who supported Kozma were passionaries. We do not know their names, because they are not leaders of the masses, but part of the people. It is these nameless passionaries, forcing laziness and cowardice to forget compatriots, inducing on them their passionarity, which is transmitted to compatriots, if the passionate is nearby, provided life for them, their families and their descendants.
      1. Uncle
        Uncle 9 July 2013 13: 24 New
        +1
        Great collage !!!
        1. Karabu
          Karabu 9 July 2013 18: 11 New
          +1
          read the works of Gumilev. did not leave the feeling that this whole theory was sucked from the finger. he tried to explain and organize what he himself did not understand, and these works appeared. many "buts", exceptions, and frank imagination.
          my personal impression
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 9 July 2013 18: 21 New
            0
            Your instinct did not disappoint you.
            L. N. Gumilev completely rejects any source study, declaring it to be "petty-minded," in which "the subject of research is lost." “For our statement of the problem,” he wrote, “source study is the best way to get distracted so much as never to return to the task at hand - to comprehend the historical process.”

            Here is such a scientist. request
            1. Nayhas
              Nayhas 9 July 2013 21: 47 New
              +1
              You just did not understand what he had in mind. It is impossible to rely on sources, you must treat them critically by comparing events with the logic of things and the events taking place against this background, including natural disasters, such as climate change. Relying on a specific source cannot be completely, it’s like investigating a crime only on the testimony of a suspect, or vice versa of the victim. Imagine that after 1000 years, historians will study World War 2 only according to Zhukov’s recollections, for all 13 editions?
              1. Iraclius
                Iraclius 9 July 2013 21: 57 New
                +2
                I understood perfectly. There should not be read between stock. The author has repeatedly and openly said that his high school knowledge of history is more than enough to write monographs.
                Those. academic research is an unnecessary chatter, and studying them is a waste of time. Experts repeatedly told Lev Nikolayevich about the dishonesty of such statements, about elementary scientific ethics and simple human culture.
                It is very strange that Lev Nikolaevich, a very polite, well-mannered and correct person in his personal life, allowed himself such undisguised rigorism in science.
                In his work, he substituted for his speculation the results of basic research.
                Read at least Lurie's criticism. There are many unpleasant things described. request
    3. Ross
      Ross 9 July 2013 11: 22 New
      +7
      Quote: koni
      According to Gumilyov, the Russian state has lived and flourished for another thousand years, and Lev Nikolayevich deeply regretted the collapse of the USSR, but how could the Eurasian perceive those events otherwise. But with Grozny, it’s not so simple, not everyone considers this king, one of the most highly educated and gifted people of his time, crazy.


      The article is controversial. A lot of distortion. And Grozny is a very isolated character of our history, and the fact that we are 500 younger than the Europeans ????? Complete nonsense.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 9 July 2013 13: 09 New
        +2
        Ross,
        I’m left. In our pair. And you, respectively - RIGHT.
        .
        Interesting to read.
        I do not perceive passionarity, theory. Well, not given.
        In my opinion, the theory of thermal "sunstroke" is even more passionate.
  2. chauvinist
    chauvinist 9 July 2013 07: 57 New
    +3
    Gumilyov is a storyteller and nothing more, since his so-called "scientific research" has long been refuted by geneticists, archaeologists and others. NO EURASIAN ETHNOS. Russians are not any Central Asians or Eurasians, but first of all Russian Europeans. WE ARE SLAVS. So it was, so it is and so it will be. Kazakhs, Tajiks and so on will never be Russian brothers.
    1. riding
      riding 9 July 2013 09: 48 New
      +4
      You from the storyteller Gumilyov playfully differ in the scale of personality. After all, anger draws to the earth.
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 9 July 2013 12: 14 New
        +1
        No, there are such.
        Russophiles are called.
        More literate than the Black Hundreds. And the same balobol.
        And Gumilev in this work is so to increase the citation of articles in search engines.
        Gumilyov’s situation is completely different. As always, a few phrases taken out of context lose their connection with the real text and thought of the original work.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 12: 46 New
          +6
          Quote: dustycat
          Gumilyov’s situation is completely different. As always, a few phrases taken out of context lose their connection with the real text and thought of the original work.

          Something I remember A. Blok, with his impudent and illiterate statement "... yes, we are SKIFS ...".
          Could it be that they wrote together with Gumilyov, to the accompaniment of a glass? laughing
        2. Uhe
          Uhe 9 July 2013 17: 05 New
          +5
          Yes, yes, familiar tales. Russophile is bad, of course. Why? But because Russophile. Being a Chechnophile, a Germanophile, an Uzbekophile is good. Why? But because they are not Russophiles;) Loving your own, Russian people is a crime, right? ;) Proud of Russian history, achievements, culture - this is bad, and Russophilia is equated with fascism. We know who thinks so in our time - the one who has neither a clan nor a tribe, but ardent rogue travelers, as in the picture that was published above.

          It will not work for you to deprive the Russians of their people and their fate. Russians are Slavs, not Eurasians. The largest Slavic people; we are Europeans oldest among European cultures, and our culture is one of the most striking and distinctive in the world, a culture of both spiritual and scientific achievements. Do not die and do not grind - do not expect.
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 9 July 2013 17: 25 New
            +1
            Russophile is not bad. It’s bad to be a nationalist. Also stupid. Who does not hesitate to show his ignorance and limitation.
            I quote from the article "The Teachings of L. N. Gumilyov, Eurasianism and the Russian Question":
            The Russian nation will be strong and healthy - there will be a great Russia, and if not, then no. The reverse formula is also true: without great Russia, the Russian nation cannot be strong and healthy. At the same time, it is impossible to recreate a power without providing all peoples of Eurasia with conditions for original development, just as it is impossible to ensure these conditions without restoring a single, strong state.


            Don't find the citation sounds ambiguous? What is it? Is it intent or just happened? Or do I think of associations with Great Germany?
            We do not need such "Russophiles", because they provide a pseudoscientific foundation for chauvinism and nationalism.
    2. OTTO
      OTTO 9 July 2013 13: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: chauvinist
      WE ARE SLAVAN. So it was, it is and it will be so. Kazakhs, Tajiks and so on will never be Russian brothers.

      Kruzenshtern, Barclay de Tolly, Rossi, Montferrand, Levitan and many others. Who do you think they are? And for one, remind me who on the Reichstag put a banner with Egorov?
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 9 July 2013 17: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: OTTO
        who on the Reichstag set a banner with Egorov?

        Sorry for the amendment and don't be surprised, but Yegorov was not there when the Victory Banner was hoisted. Read Chuikov's memoirs. There you will find the names of those who actually did it, not those who were "appointed".
    3. Essenger
      Essenger 9 July 2013 15: 06 New
      0
      Quote: chauvinist
      Kazakhs, Tajiks and so on will never be Russian brothers.


      Of course. I agree that everyone needs to understand this, and stop building illusions about the new Eurasian project.
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 9 July 2013 15: 17 New
        +4
        Hmm ... And only brothers enter into alliances? You can be partners and friends.
        Sometimes it happens that a reliable friend is dearer than a blood brother.
        And the relevance of the meaning of the parable about a broken rod and an unbending bunch of rods has not yet been canceled.
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 9 July 2013 17: 41 New
          -1
          Quote: Iraclius
          .A only brothers join unions?

          If we are talking about the Eurasian Union, then the Russians perceive this as a revival of the SS.

          Quote: Iraclius
          no one has yet canceled about a broken rod and an unbending bunch of rods.


          It depends on who is trying to break the bars.
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 9 July 2013 17: 49 New
            +4
            Quote: Essenger
            If we are talking about the Eurasian Union, then the Russians perceive this as a revival of the SS.

            In Kazakhstan, the Russians know better what they think. I, here, live in the Russian Federation and Russian. But I do not perceive the Eurasian Union as the USSR-2.0.
            Because I know that you cannot enter the same river twice.
            Representatives of many tribes and languages ​​lived and fought shoulder to shoulder in Rome for a thousand years. And somehow no one talked about brotherhood and love. It simply was not possible to survive otherwise.
            And God sees - when he lays down, all the former republics will remember Russia and the USSR. It was already. Passed the stage. Therefore, the meaning of the parable is interpreted unambiguously.
    4. Hleb
      Hleb 9 July 2013 16: 04 New
      +2
      Gumilyov’s still interesting position — he divides the Russians and the Slavs
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  8. CTEPX
    CTEPX 9 July 2013 08: 10 New
    +2
    Quote:
    "Both we and Western Europeans have always felt this difference, realized and never considered each other as" ours ". Since we are 500 years younger" ...

    Otono as!
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 9 July 2013 12: 10 New
      +5
      Or 5000-6000 years older ...
      1. Ross
        Ross 9 July 2013 12: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: dustycat
        Or 5000-6000 years older ...


        Absolutely right! All archaeological evidence for this.
  9. slaventi
    slaventi 9 July 2013 08: 14 New
    +1
    The people, being in the akmatic phase, young and strong, rejected the anti-systems, fought with them. Godunov, the people did not forgive his belonging to the oprichnina

    Or maybe the murder of Tsarevich Dimitri?
    In the breakdown phase, all kinds of antisystems bloom especially that penetrated into Russia at the beginning of the 16 century. The first anti-system tried to take root in the emerging Russia in the form of “heresy of the Judaizers” in Novgorod.

    It turns out that Gumilyov introduced an anti-system in the form of neoliberalism to destroy society and the state.
    Before the first inauguration in May 2000, the future president of Russia came to the Pskov-Caves Monastery to see the elder, confessor, father John. The conversation in the old man’s cell lasted for more than an hour. Serious, excited and even a little confused, as it seemed to me then, the future president of Russia V. Putin said: “We have almost no time left. We need to hurry - we have very little time. "

    This is definitely almost no time., Hurry.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 9 July 2013 12: 09 New
      +2
      Gumilyov here so, for advertising.
      Everything else is the author's delirium of the dropout.
  10. VadimSt
    VadimSt 9 July 2013 08: 23 New
    +6
    I would like to hope that sooner or later, the "voice of blood" will return Ukrainians to their usual super-ethnos.
  11. nokki
    nokki 9 July 2013 09: 02 New
    +3
    Gumilyov’s concept, in principle, is correct. But his mistake is that he took as a starting point, like the author of this article, this statement:

    The events of the ethnogenesis of the peoples of our Fatherland constitute the historical outline of the life of at least two different superethnoses. Therefore, it is necessary to distinguish between the history of Ancient Kievan Rus from (from the 9 to the 13 century, including the history of Novgorod until its fall in the 15 century) and the history of Moscow Russia from the 13 century to this day.


    That is, knowingly believing that these two super-ethnic groups did not have predecessors. Modern archaeological research says something else. For example :



    What is this talking about? The fact that the declared two superethnoses was preceded, at least, by the Proto-Aryan and Aryan civilizations, whose direct heirs, both genetically and spiritually, are we, that is, the Russian superethnos, Russian civilization. Everything else is just fragments of the Great Exodus of the Aryans to all four corners of the world.

    Aryan civilization is the matrix of the Russian. Russian - The heart of the superethnos. Therefore, the approaches applicable to other superethnoses do not work here.

    Other superethnoses (in particular, Western European) were created by the Aryans, who were then assimilated by local tribes (Celts, Germans - in Europe; in India - the ancestors of the present gypsies).

    Therefore, the fate of the Russians, well, does not fit into any "harmonious" systems and concepts. Only God knows what awaits us. And it is not just words...
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 9 July 2013 12: 07 New
      +2
      No matter what archeology is talking about ..
      The main thing is that the fingers run very beautifully on the keyboard and the head remembers what copy-paste is.
    2. Iraclius
      Iraclius 9 July 2013 12: 41 New
      +2
      nokkiread who Aryans are. At least a book by Gamkrelidze. Where and where did the Indo-European migration go?
      After that, use the term "aryans" with caution.
      I do not digest Gumilyov’s work, but what you wrote in the commentary is generally the most epic anti-scientific nonsense. What is this passage worth:
      Russian civilization is the matrix of the Aryan

      The collapse of the pra-Indo-European community with the separation from it of the ancestors of two Aryan branches - Iranian and Indo-Aryan occurred in the III — II millennium BC. e. Where was Russian civilization at that time? Or are cunning Jews even here hiding everything?
      Please do not be offended for my harshness. Sincerely. hi
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  13. slaventi
    slaventi 9 July 2013 09: 28 New
    +4
    Oprichnina was created by Ivan the Terrible in a fit of madness in 1565. and she officially existed for seven years. The task of the guardsmen was to "plague the sovereign treason."

    If Putin introduced the oprichnina, the liberals would yell that he had a fit of insanity.
    But it's time ... And they are already beginning to scream.
  14. stroporez
    stroporez 9 July 2013 10: 05 New
    +4
    "......... the need to pay the khan's" exit "and princely duties. It seemed as if it could not be harder than time ........." and their descendants put all sorts of different deputies on their necks and contraceptives and ---- it turned out that it CAN ..........
  15. krez-74
    krez-74 9 July 2013 10: 06 New
    +2
    Many things are not true, and not quite true. Article minus!
  16. Opera
    Opera 9 July 2013 10: 13 New
    15
    Good afternoon.
    Honestly speaking about the article, it is difficult to say something specifically. There are, in my opinion, both positive aspects and completely unacceptable!
    Regarding Ivan the Terrible and his insanity ... The author writes about the oprichnina created in a fit! Nothing happens just like that, it is not taken from nowhere and does not disappear into nowhere! This can be attributed to the Mongols, for example. As for the oprichnina, contrary to popular belief, in addition to bloody terror, this formation proved to be very remarkable from a military point of view in the war with the Livonian Order, from which Ivan the Terrible also did not leave a stone-on-stone attack in the war with the Crimeans. The Battle of Molodi is the clearest confirmation of this - they cut the Tatars almost without exception!
    Apparently because of the madness of Ivan the Terrible, Russia immensely expanded, the army strengthened (local troops were created, artillery was allocated to a special type of troops ...), and a lot of things happened with this "crazy" positive - there would be more such violent ones!
    And finally, if the religious tolerance, religiosity and order of Muscovite Russia is a Mongolian legacy ... then love for the motherland, sacrifice to protect its borders from century to century we probably inherited from the Nanai boys!
    Our "youth" before the Europeans (for 500 years !!!) should be left on the conscience of the author and probably Gumilyov! But the fact that Europe is not a decree for us - yes!
    1. krez-74
      krez-74 9 July 2013 10: 18 New
      +5
      I subscribe to your every word! good
      After the Romanovs came to power, what kind of "dogs" did not hang on Ivan the Terrible and his predecessors by pseudo-historians! We wish we had more such violent!
      1. Opera
        Opera 9 July 2013 10: 26 New
        +3
        Unfortunately, after the "comprehensive study of the history of Rus" by Romanov historians, almost no documents remained from the time of Ivan the Terrible. What they operate in describing the history of that time is written in the west or by the enemies of Grozny, again in the west! Such is the story!
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 9 July 2013 13: 21 New
          0
          Alexander Prozorov, Leningrad historian-writer.
          Cycle "Boyar Hundred".
          Very informative material on the historical time of Ivan the Terrible. Well, golimnaya fiction, of course, must be thrown out.
          It was based on the archives of the Baltic states.
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 13: 31 New
          +5
          Quote: Oper
          Unfortunately, after the "comprehensive study of the history of Russia" by Romanov historians from the time of Ivan the Terrible, almost no documents remained. What they operate in describing the history of that time is written in the west or by enemies

          No doubt, you can already assess the situation.
          But after the appearance, into the light of day, of Nosovsky's works together with Fomenko, you can still precipitate, applying even to the "Romanov" history "fairy tales of preseudo-historians" ...
          In one, I strongly disagree with the author that The events of the ethnogenesis of the peoples of our Fatherland constitute the historical outline of the life of at least two different superethnoses..
          Following this principle, it is possible to subdivide into sub-sub (etc.) ethnic groups of the inhabitants of Pomerania, Siberia, and the Far East.
          Which, incidentally, is used by sub-ethnic groups of Nezalezhnaya, declaring themselves to be almost a different civilization, replacing the concepts of culture, religion, language, traditions, history and places of compact residence in self-identification with political motives of the current historical moment.
  17. Yuri Y.
    Yuri Y. 9 July 2013 11: 53 New
    0
    Attempts to define ethnos through a number of signs: as a language, culture, territorial unity, the self-name constantly failed, because the main attribute that determines the belonging of an ethnos is: who they consider themselves.

    Here I completely agree, with reference to a specific person. Especially nowadays there are many mixed marriages.
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 9 July 2013 18: 08 New
      +2
      Against which Gumilyov himself so eagerly stands, by the way.
      The ideological actions of one ethnos on unprepared neophytes act like infection viruses, drugs, and mass alcoholism. ” Gumilyov’s condemnation of interethnic marriages (“exogamy”), which leads to “violation of ethnic traditions, because the mother teaches the child one skill ... and the father another,” is connected with this. Such marriages, “whether statewide, a clan union or a monogamous family, should be qualified as frivolity, criminal in relation to descendants”

      No.

      Purely for the sake of laughter ... As you know, in Russia, as always, fools, roads and Jews are to blame for all ills. So, critics of Gumilyov in his work do not see anything new at all, since the number 1200 years (the lifespan of an ethnos) goes back to N. Ya. Danilevsky and K.N. Leontyev, and the concept of ethnogenesis is completely ripped off from the Jewish scientist Ben Maimon )! wassat
  18. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 12: 03 New
    +5
    On the territory of present-day Ukraine, two sub-ethnic groups and a Russian ethnic group live in their landscapes. These two sub-ethnic groups: Western and Eastern Ukrainians belong to different superethnic systems.

    An article on the topic of what is called ...
    Especially in the issue of self-identification.
    The other day, I finally quarreled with an old friend from Ukraine (we studied together in Russia-USSR). 33 years ago broke up, but corresponded, then chatted on social networks.
    And the reason was my "impudent statement" that we - Russians and Ukrainians - are a single ethnic group, with one language, culture, ONE HISTORY, and a common territory of residence ...
    But no.
    Maybe only in Kiev, but they already believe that Russians and Ukrainians are, as they say in Odessa, two big differences.
    Or maybe someone in Ukraine believes that they are ALREADY members of the European Union, and barbarian and Asian Russia belongs to another, alien world?
  19. Valery-SPB
    Valery-SPB 9 July 2013 12: 13 New
    0
    One of the following antisystems was the oprichnina. There were no social or political prerequisites for the emergence of the oprichnina. Oprichnina was created by Ivan the Terrible in a fit of insanity in 1565. and she officially existed for seven years.


    Is reason an antisystem? Yes! But, not baseless, as the author claims. Under Ivan Vasilievich a certain kind of elite was formed.
    "In the criminal cohabitation and voluptuous adultery, our present king John was conceived and born ...
    To all this evil was added early orphanhood, for John remained from a young age (only about two years) without a father, and soon without a mother, and he was brought up by proud boyars who, to their misfortune and their offspring, flattered and pleased him in all pleasure and voluptuousness.
    At an early age he did evil deeds; I’ll write about some of them here ...
    He began with the shedding of blood of innocent and dumb animals, which he dropped from high rapids, showing this his mercy ... Stupid his teachers did not interfere with him, but, on the contrary, praised and encouraged to all the bad ...
    When John was fifteen years old, he began to destroy people. He gathered around him the children of his relatives and the children of the synclitic boyars, began to ride along with them on roads and commercial areas. They rode horses and robbed and killed all the people they met and did evil robberies, which are even embarrassing to talk about, but his tutors-flatterers continued to praise John for their misfortune. “Oh, how brave and courageous this king will be!” They said.

    When he entered his seventeenth birthday, then the boyars began to teach him to take revenge on his personal enemies, setting it against one, then against another. The first to be killed was Ivan Belsky [viii], a noble man from the family of Lithuanian princes, a relative of King Jagaila himself, a brave and courageous commander. "

    This one of his close people wrote, from the same elite, who had flown abroad in time, from the very elite who tried to lead the king. And those who did not have time, the king, with God's help, tidied up. Especially those who have already got into his bedding business.

    Yes, and crazy things, according to survivors, he began to create from an early age, and not in a fit of insanity since 1565.
  20. Iraclius
    Iraclius 9 July 2013 12: 28 New
    +3
    With all due respect - L.N. Gumilyov is the founder of the folk history genre.
    His work (I'm talking about the Passionary theory of ethnogenesis) is not officially recognized by the scientific community.
    ... in his works, Gumilyov used techniques characteristic of pseudoscientific works - free interpretation of sources, fiction, stretch, ignoring data that contradict his constructions. Gumilyov’s theories of “chimeras” and “antisystems” were also criticized by the scientific community. Some analysts believe that the author of passionary theory is responsible for giving the doctrine of Russian nationalists a halo of scientific

    What the author took advantage of.
    The author of the article pulled quotes, taking them out of context and diluted them with her own speculations.
    Sorry, but I didn’t like the article.
    1. bunta
      bunta 9 July 2013 13: 17 New
      +1
      With all due respect, L.N. Gumilev is the founder of the theory of ethnogenesis.
      Darwin, with his evolutionary theory of natural selection, has puzzled the development of scientific thought. Fortunately A.A. Alexandrov and Ludwig von Bertalanffy proposed a general theory of systems development. According to the theory of systems, there are objective laws of development of any systems - technical, biological, cosmological, etc. Evolutionary periods in systems are replaced by revolutionary transitions. Thus, ethnogenesis, biogenesis, technogenesis - occur according to exactly the same laws. Gumilyov understood this even when Bertalanffy himself had not yet fully developed his theory, and Lev Nikolayevich himself fell down a forest in the Gulag!
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 9 July 2013 13: 39 New
        +1
        Quote: bunta
        Darwin, with his evolutionary theory of natural selection, has puzzled the development of scientific thought.

        Wow! Creationist? Then everything is clear.
        According to the ethnogenesis of Gumilyov. What can we argue if Lev Nikolaevich himself could not justify the reason that initiates ethnogenesis. Something about supernova explosions, cosmic radiation ... In short, a stream of consciousness.
        In addition, he himself wrote that not all ethnic groups go through these stages, and some do not go through at all, since they are formed absolutely spontaneously. What kind of theory is this in which there are more exceptions than, in fact, theory? In addition, special thanks to Lev Nikolaevich for Fomenko, Nosovsky, Yordan Tabov and their German colleagues - whistleblowers and tearing of the covers. Ugh, disgusting!
        The theory is original, bright - this cannot be taken away from it. But science is not there. Sincerely.
        1. bunta
          bunta 9 July 2013 14: 04 New
          0
          Quote: Iraclius
          if Lev Nikolaevich himself could not justify the reason that initiates ethnogenesis

          You read a little source. There is no reason at the bifurcation point. There are several solutions to the system of equations. And no system specialist will say how the story goes. The presence of a certain number (in percentage terms) of passionaries in an ethnic group is always there. But what will cause a systemic (revolutionary) transition to God alone (understand correctly) is known. Arizona butterfly wing flap causes a hurricane in Texas. (This is from the theory of chaos - the development of systems theory). Just LN was very impressed by Vernadsky. So attached to cosmic radiation. And the theory of chaos and dynamical systems was just ripening in Prigogine’s head. If LN lived longer and if he had become acquainted with the writings of Prigogine and E. Lorenz, then he probably would have added not only cosmic radiation to the causes of the passion drive wink
          And how is Fomenko obliged to Gumilev?
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 9 July 2013 14: 55 New
            +1
            How is it not? The bifurcation point is unambiguously associated with the disturbance. There is no impact, there will be no bifurcation point and the system will remain in dynamic equilibrium. An example is self-oscillatory systems or autocatalytic chemical reactions. It's just that Romans don't become Italians. Gumilyov did not indicate the reason, except for those that explain the migration before him. Therefore, this is just a beautiful verbiage and does not smell like science there. At worst, pulling it by the ears, you can apply the term "hypothesis". Actually, quod erat demonstrandum.
            And how the pseudo-historians and Gumilev are connected, I will explain to you - by my free handling of factual material, fitting and inventing facts - all this was borrowed by F&N from L.N., adding there its stream of creation about the New Chronology. As a result, you cannot find Professor Ivanov's History of Ancient Greece or Michael Grant's History of Ancient Rome on store shelves. I am already silent about serious books like the same monograph by Ivanov and Gamkrelidze. But all the counters are littered with fairy tales of the Finnish Museum, just tons of stained paper with the names "Khazaria and Atlantis", "Russia and the Great Steppe" and other nonsense. And the people read it all. And even learns from these crafts.
            1. bunta
              bunta 9 July 2013 14: 58 New
              +1
              I will instantly agree with you if you explain to me the reason why I got up from my right foot today.
              1. Iraclius
                Iraclius 9 July 2013 15: 07 New
                +1
                You are not with me - ask Woland. He is an expert on such things. And he said through the mouth of M.A. Bulgakov that for no reason the brick fell on anyone’s head.
                You can extrapolate to your right foot.
                For example, I got up on the left today. Because yesterday, playing football, the right bruise and it hurts me to step on it.
                I will repeat again - not a single people will just change the language, name and range of settlement. Need motivation. Gumilyov did not give an answer. Everything else on 50% fit, on 50% speculation and fiction.
                And read "Chaos Theory" by I. Prigogine carefully. It says everything about dynamical systems, and about small changes in parameters and about what they lead to. The fork does not arise simply from standing on your right foot. wink
                1. bunta
                  bunta 9 July 2013 23: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  I will repeat again - not a single people will just change the language, name and range of settlement

                  Me too, which is for a reason. Just name at least one "people" who have changed both the language and the name and the arsenal of habitation. wink
                  Ethnogenesis does not do this. And the ethnos is not engaged in changing the language or the area of ​​settlement. Ethnogenesis deals with the study of the emergence, development and dying of an ethnic group. Ethnogenesis answers the question of what is "ethnos".
                  Ethnogenesis says that ethnic groups develop according to the same systemic laws as technical and biological systems. Everything.
                  This is the first time I have heard that LN was engaged in fitting and making up facts. A man commits a courageous act - he publicly intercedes for the honor of his father, knowing full well that this dooms himself to possible death in the dungeons. But he cannot fail to do this, because he belongs to the great ethnic group - Russian civilization. This ethnos is characterized by such a stereotype of behavior - as a concept of honor at the cost of one’s own life. And LN, as a nobleman (and never breaking it), is the bearer of this stereotype.
                  And what, does such a person begin to compose, lie, distort something? In the name of what?
                  There is such a thing as an interpretation of a fact. Any historian has the right to do so.

                  Quote: Iraclius
                  The fork does not arise simply because you got up with your right foot. wink


                  The fork does not arise, it is present regardless of. This is the reality given to us in solving the system of equations. There are several of these solutions. What decision (which leg will rise) at a given moment of time is beyond rational. Otherwise, determinism is a dead end. It turns out that all that will be with us is beyond our will. Everything is predetermined and do not rock the boat. I didn’t even hurt my leg, but as a result of the tragic chain of events developed since the Big Bang. Yearning.

                  Quote: Iraclius
                  And read "Chaos Theory" by I. Prigogine carefully.

                  Prigogine does not have such a work, he has "Order from Chaos. A New Dialogue between Man and Nature." Recommend more carefully.

                  Quote: Iraclius
                  Just because the Romans do not become Italians. Gumilyov did not indicate the reason, except for those that explain the migration before him.


                  Did Italians come from the Romans ?! Interestingly, how can one indicate the reason for what was not? Sorry, but if you read Gumilyov, I’m more and more convinced that you didn’t understand anything there.
            2. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 15: 55 New
              +5
              Quote: Iraclius
              other nonsense. And the people read it all. And even studying in these crafts.

              Moreover - "tears his throat on the forum" in defense of these "jokers from history."
              Problems and gaps in the study of History as a subject in secondary school (few people choose it to pass the notorious USE). And then here, grabbing "false vershoks", they try to defend the falsifiers of the Great Patriotic War and the Second World War.
              1. Iraclius
                Iraclius 9 July 2013 16: 01 New
                +2
                Wow, my day was a success! good And then it began to seem that the vast majority of people on the forum began to study the history of waste paper from the authorship of Fomenko and Nosovsky, ulcerating them to the root ...
                The author here also wrote about a certain notorious discreteness of Russian history.
                I will say this - there is no discreteness, there is stupid laziness, lack of education and obscurantism.
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 16: 57 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  I will say this - there is no discreteness, there is dull laziness, ignorance and obscurantism

                  Perhaps (?) The author, in the very first line, decided to "lay the cornerstone" of her theory of "discontinuity" into sub-ethnic groups ...?
                  Here he wrote (above or below) - I do not agree.
        2. Black
          Black 9 July 2013 22: 39 New
          +2
          Quote: Iraclius
          In addition, a special thank you to Lev Nikolaevich for Fomenko, Nosovsky, Yordan Tabov and their German colleagues - whistleblowers and tearing covers. Ugh, disgusting!


          As soon as science "rises" above the foundation, renounces methodology, supportive disciplines are swept aside, such as,

          timeline studying time frames;
          paleography - manuscripts and ancient writing;
          diplomacy - historical acts;
          numismatics - coins, medals, orders, monetary systems, history of trade;
          metrology - a system of measures;
          flattening flag - flags;
          heraldry - coats of arms of countries, cities, individual families;
          sphragistics - printing;
          epigraphy - inscriptions on stone, clay, metal; genealogy - the origin of cities and surnames; toponymy - the origin of geographical names;
          local history - the history of the locality, region, region.

          pseudoscience is born.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 10 July 2013 14: 37 New
            +3
            Quote: Chen
            pseudoscience is born.

            hi
  21. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 9 July 2013 12: 30 New
    +2
    "Look, prince, what rubbish has gotten into the walls of the Kremlin!", Why did you take it off? After all, is it still up to date, or is it unpleasant for anyone in the Kremlin? True, it really is. Well, there’s a lot to condemn the theory of ethnogenesis, you don’t need much, but they can’t offer something else. We will never be our own for Europeans, thank God!
  22. bunta
    bunta 9 July 2013 12: 54 New
    +1
    But what does Putin have to do with visiting his confessor ?!
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 9 July 2013 13: 27 New
      +2
      Yes, just cool.
      No time...
      "There is no time, and you have to suffer,
      There is no time to stand and come to my senses.
      here, without me, nothing will come true,
      there, without me, nothing will work .. "
      Crane-cranes, damn it .. and then they will fly to the wrong place. Not to the Ussuri tigers. On "Kalina".
  23. Opera
    Opera 9 July 2013 13: 45 New
    +2
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    No doubt, you can already assess the situation. But after the appearance, in the light of day, of Nosovsky’s writings paired with Fomenko, you can finally precipitate,

    ))) No doubt, you can precipitate !!!! And you can also discuss, listen, argue, conduct unbiased research in search of truth! Although yes, it is much easier to precipitate, especially when it is difficult with arguments. You can also throw books out of the window as an academician Rybakov, apparently he’s just shy to burn on bonfires.
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 9 July 2013 14: 15 New
      +4
      Quote: Oper
      And you can discuss, listen, argue, conduct unbiased scientific research in search of truth!

      My opinion is as follows.
      1. One should not follow in the footsteps of the author of the "Tale of the Bygone Years", "reaching out" the historical roots to the "tribe of Japheth".
      2. Links to Arkaim, with which the information space is replete, are only links.
      And therefore, I believe that the Slavs, as an ethnos, according to ancient Greek sources, identified themselves in the 2-3 century AD And only after leaving the Danube (the invasion of the Avars gave an impetus), there was a division into tribes identical to the peoples of today.
      Otherwise, today's Egyptians, Greeks, Italians can safely claim more than 2-5-thousand-year history.
  24. Odysseus
    Odysseus 9 July 2013 15: 30 New
    +1
    Gumilev, of course, is a great stylist and a brilliant storyteller of little-known historical facts, but alas, nothing more ....
    But the author went further trying to combine Gumilyov’s ethnogenesis with geopolitics and his own emotions.
    As a result, in the presence of many true thoughts in general, something enchantingly ridiculous turned out.
  25. Iraclius
    Iraclius 9 July 2013 15: 47 New
    0
    Here, one commentator tries to combine Gumilyov’s ethnogenesis, the theory of chaos, dynamical systems, and the problem of getting up from his right foot.
    And you are geopolitics, emotions ... laughing
    1. Odysseus
      Odysseus 9 July 2013 15: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: Iraclius
      Here, one commentator tries to combine Gumilyov’s ethnogenesis, the theory of chaos, dynamical systems, and the problem of getting up from his right foot.

      Yes, the contrast between Darwin and Bertalanffy is strong.
      "No, the man is wide, too wide, I would narrow it down." smile
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 9 July 2013 16: 14 New
        +1
        Yes, but for the "damned Darwin" the author did not explain. Alas. request
        "No, the man is wide, too wide, I would narrow it down."

        good

        There is someone for academician Rybakov, someone wrote disgusting.
        Like, he threw books around. There was a case. Only the author of the comment took the phrase out of context. And everything was as RB Rybakov, director of the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, tells about his father, historian, academician BA Rybakov, on the pages of the Vestnik magazine.
        << I recall the last meeting of the department bureau, at which B.A. (Rybakov - Auth.). It was long, everyone was tired, and when he was given the floor, he was briefly telegraphic: "There are two dangers before historical science. Veles's book. And - Fomenko." And sat down in his place. In fact, this became his bequest to us, historians ... They say that while giving a lecture in the very same auditorium of the history department of Moscow State University, where the memorial plaque of BA is now installed, he spoke for a long time about Fomenko's "concept", and then summed up: With this kind of books you have to do this! " - and threw the book into a high open window - the distance there is quite large >> (Rybakov RB "Son about the Father". - Bulletin of the Russian Academy

        One can arbitrarily claim that libri sunt legendi, non comburendi, but this does not change the essence. Books cannot be burned. But what overwhelmed the book shelves today is not books. They pervert, distort, make you doubt, not offering anything in return. They make cosmopolitans out of our children.
        I wouldn’t throw out books of Fin and I’d burn them out at the stake. But why? Superfluous advertising only. And sorry for the money.
        1. Odysseus
          Odysseus 9 July 2013 19: 59 New
          0
          Quote: Iraclius
          I wouldn’t throw out the books of Fin and I’d burn them out at the stake. But why? Superfluous advertising only. And sorry for the money

          Why burn? It’s enough to turn it over to waste paper, but I’m afraid this is a pipe dream. The Russian authorities want to continue to pull the Soviet oil and gas cake, and for this they need to prevent the emergence of independent political organizations and, in general, attempts at self-organization, as well as maintain people's consciousness in a chaotic state.
          So the process of creating pseudo-historical myths will continue.
          Another thing is that financial and financial services are now outsiders in this process.
          The mainstream is now a pseudo-monarchical Orthodox history. And there Fomenko with his traitors, the Romanovs and Christ of the 10th century, fit in with a creak ...
          But Gumilyova, though with difficulty, you can enter there ...
    2. bunta
      bunta 9 July 2013 23: 54 New
      0
      Quote: Iraclius
      Here, one commentator tries to combine Gumilyov’s ethnogenesis, the theory of chaos, dynamical systems, and the problem of getting up from his right foot.

      Somehow rude this post looks in relation to me. Don't you find?
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 10 July 2013 00: 59 New
        0
        Quote: bunta
        Somehow rude this post looks in relation to me. Don't you find?

        Sorry to interrupt (just the answer was sent to me).
        I don’t think that dear Iraclius wanted to be rude to you. This is pure irony.
        You just started with the fact that you famously rejected the theory of evolution with one line (although its positions in science are still unshakable, which, of course, does not exclude its addition and development). Then, with the next line, you opposed the “bad” Darwin to the “good” Bertalanffy. did not make strange oppositions.
        Well, continued in the same vein ....
        Such, excuse me, Khlestakov’s ease of thought naturally gives rise to smiles ....
  26. Opera
    Opera 9 July 2013 18: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Iraclius
    There was someone who wrote disgusting stuff for Academician Rybakov. Like, he threw books at him. It was a deal. Only the author of the commentary took the phrase out of context

    Well, I'm not Bayer, Schletser, and certainly not Miller, whatever phrases or pages to tear out there. As it was, I wrote it. You Mr. Iraklius remember even better who and whom the party leadership wrote to! Wow! So throwing books out the window of the student audience is so pranks and PR is cheap no more! And to burn books as you would like now is also not relevant! Is there something you need to do with the Internet ?! And then the Russians somehow forgot about the darkness of their utter slumber, which the German historians, of course, excuse me, Russian historians Bayer, Miller, Schdezer, Kun scribbling tirelessly!
  27. Iraclius
    Iraclius 9 July 2013 18: 53 New
    0
    I'm not from the gentlemen. And there is a proposal not to mix Rybakov-professional and Rybakov-man, as well as Gumilyov-professional and Gumilyov-man. In the end, there is a proverb about a man and a human being not alien to him - homo sum et nihil humanum mihi alienum est.
    I didn’t call to burn books and I don’t want to. I would like to burn provocative and pseudo-scientific articles of a dubious propaganda sense. Here recently one Ukrainian (as he introduced himself), tried to seriously prove that the Ukrainians are the oldest Slavic tribe. And he motivated it with the "data" of the Veles book. Think about it - Rybakov is right or wrong.
    Your confusion about German surnames is quite understandable to me. I understand and sympathize.
    About scribbling. Andrzej Sapkowski has such a wonderful novel - The Saga of Reinevan. And that's how one of the characters says there about the invention of Mr. Gutenberg.
    “Truly,” said Samson Medoc, after a pause, in his soft and calm voice. - I see it in the eyes of my soul. Mass production of papers covered in letters. Each paper is in hundreds, and someday, no matter how ridiculous it may sound, perhaps in thousands of copies. Everything is multiplied and widely available. Lies, ravings, defamation, libel, denunciations, black propaganda and demagogy convincing the crowd. Any meanness is ennobled. Any baseness is official. Any lie is true. Any disgust is dignity. Any extinct extremism is revolution. Any cheap slogan is wisdom. Any cheap stuff is value. Any stupidity is recognized, any nonsense is crowned with a crown. For all this is imprinted. It is depicted on paper, therefore it has power, and therefore it obliges. It will be easy to start, Mr. Gutenberg. And put it into action. A stop?

    So it goes.
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 9 July 2013 19: 42 New
      +1
      An exceptional example, Andrew.

      The lies propagated by thousands of copies are disgusting.
      ..
      But, no one has yet proved that a lie - in one instance - is Good.
      ..
      Radzivilovskaya manuscript - Is it true?
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 9 July 2013 20: 24 New
        0
        Igarr, in science, one of the most fundamental principles is the Occam principle. Entia non sunt multiplicanda super nessesitate. Those. the simplest explanation is the most correct.
        I have no information about the falsity of the Radziwill Chronicle. No data that can be gleaned from other annals, including both western and eastern, it does not contradict. Consequently, it also does not contradict the integral scientific picture of the world.
        The book of Veles or Gumilyov’s works contain contradictions in essence, therefore they do not meet the criterion of scientificity. About the amount of lies.
        You know, if people lie every day and a lot, then the lie smoothly transforms into truth.
        With a single manuscript, this is not possible. How many people now remember about the crafts of Shponolts - Prillvitsky idols? Not. But if this duck were launched today. then the effect could be very different.
        The first printers are not to blame for anything. Neither Johannes Gutenberg, nor Fedorov, nor others ...
        After all, the intentions were good. But, as you know, good intentions ...
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 9 July 2013 20: 44 New
          0
          Again a very good message ..
          Why, for example, should I consider the emergence of Slavic statehood with the involvement of some Varangians, Vikings, guests?
          Why should I believe that the whole city, region - did not have enough of my brains? Except for the fact that from somewhere to call newcomers? Not owning a local situation.
          At a time when personal valor and enterprise were the key to success - does the choir surrender to freedom FIG knows who?
          Or all the same .. yours? Though a Varangian?
          Does not fit into the brain. There is a simpler option - and, just by the rule of the razor, it is true. Just already been. Just Gostomysl called ... to account. The one to whom it was entrusted is entrusted.
          And not dashing people ... tumbleweed.
          ..
          "..contain contradictions in essence .." In essence - WHAT? Traditional history?
          And by themselves, that the Book of Veles, that Gumilyov - is quite so ..whole.. look.
          Fin, so generally based on mathematics, Newton, Morozov, Zender zodiac .... so, if we discard the balcony, wound around the mathematical apparatus - so too ... the story is sharply shortened.
          ..
          And the principle of Occam - do not create entities beyond what is necessary. But not .. the simplest explanation.
          It was once believed that mice from dirty laundry appear.
          It is quite reliable.
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 9 July 2013 21: 28 New
            +1
            If there are other options, then why not consider them? For some reason, puppet governments seated on the throne of the United States are not surprising anyone. No one is surprised by the Armenian or Isaurian dynasties in Byzantium or German surnames on the Russian throne, who, although they speak Russian poorly, but who consider themselves completely Russian, which, in general, is true. But the bottom line is that they look very tight and do not stand up to criticism. In addition, they do not receive support with factual material. Indeed, you must admit that even all the Jews of the world cannot forge and falsify the entire global corps of archaeological, literary, ethnographic, etc. material.
            The difference between science and religion, among other things, is that the facts in the first are not accepted on faith, but are repeatedly and cross-checked.
            If the source meets the criteria of scientific, then it is considered reliable.
            About the contradictions. Implied internal contradictions. When a single author, either in one work or in different works on the same subject, cites data that contradict each other. This suggests a fit of facts or a vague wording of key definitions. Gumilyov’s works greatly sin this.
            The integrity of the works does not indicate their truth or the scientific nature of the approach used. Many schizophrenics are distinguished by connectedness, brightness and imagery of thinking and speech. This is so, by the way.
            Occam's principle has many interpretations. The Latin quote I cited is a later version of the interpretation, which William himself never voiced. As for the mice ... I can also develop a thought and recall the flat Earth and the geocentric picture of the world washed by the World Ocean. About Ultima Thule and the peoples of Gog and Magog, and also about the fact that Kagan Temujin eats babies and has a dog’s head. The point is that science is developing along with humanity. The boundaries of the known expand. And it’s not the fault of the titans Copernicus and Galileo that some people in the 21st century still believe that mice emerge from dirty laundry, and that the weary Sun washes the face in the cool waters of the eternal Ocean in the evening.
            Sincerely. hi
  28. Black
    Black 9 July 2013 22: 53 New
    0
    Gumilyov, with all due respect, cannot be called a "pioneer" in rethinking the driving forces of history
    So, the ancient Greek poet Hesiod (VIII-VII centuries BC) divided the history of peoples into five periods - divine, gold, silver, copper and iron, arguing that people live worse and worse from century to century. The ancient Greek thinker Pythagoras (VI century BC) in the understanding of history was guided by the theory of the circle, according to which the development follows the same track: generation, flowering, death. Moreover, the history vector is practically absent.
  29. bunta
    bunta 10 July 2013 00: 02 New
    0
    Quote: Chen
    can not be called a "pioneer"

    Well, the theory of systems comes from Aristotle - "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." (c) Metaphysics?
  30. Xnumx kopeek
    Xnumx kopeek 10 July 2013 03: 23 New
    -1
    Quote: Iraclius
    Quote: bunta
    Darwin, with his evolutionary theory of natural selection, has puzzled the development of scientific thought.

    Wow! Creationist? Then everything is clear.
    According to the ethnogenesis of Gumilyov. What can we argue if Lev Nikolaevich himself could not justify the reason that initiates ethnogenesis. Something about supernova explosions, cosmic radiation ... In short, a stream of consciousness.
    In addition, he himself wrote that not all ethnic groups go through these stages, and some do not go through at all, since they are formed absolutely spontaneously. What kind of theory is this in which there are more exceptions than, in fact, theory? In addition, special thanks to Lev Nikolaevich for Fomenko, Nosovsky, Yordan Tabov and their German colleagues - whistleblowers and tearing of the covers. Ugh, disgusting!
    The theory is original, bright - this cannot be taken away from it. But science is not there. Sincerely.

    -L.G. He called the cosmic streams a "whip", something like that. / Which form ethnos / - Is Vi a Darwinist? - That is - the Man-cockroach, after 1 mil of years of work in the gulag, became a complete sheaek, finally.? - Even Darwin became. - Nonsense, too. - A skeleton of 1,8 mil years was found in Georgia. Homosapiens. Before that, off the coast of western Italy, skeletons / also h.sapiens / date back 4-6 mil years. -So-work-do not work-but you will remain a cockroach. Or Darwin.
    -
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 10 July 2013 11: 22 New
      0
      Question - What language do you write? I did not understand half of what was written. But I realized that this was some kind of attempt at irony. And I also realized that the author has absolutely no idea about the essence of evolutionary theory. And yes - sometimes people really remain donkeys, goats and snakes for life. Such things and have a nice day!
  31. Opera
    Opera 10 July 2013 10: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: Iraclius
    I didn’t call books to burn, and I don’t feel like it. I would like to burn provocative and pseudoscientific crafts of dubious propaganda.

    Quote: Iraclius
    I wouldn’t throw out the books of Fin, I would burn from the stake

    Apparently you are going to determine what is books and what is not, what to burn, and what to leave! Not bad for a friend not from the gentlemen! Although not new!
    Quote: Iraclius
    And there is a proposal not to mix Rybakov-professional and Rybakov-man, as well as Gumilyov-professional and Gumilyov-man. In the end, there is a proverb about man and not human alien to him - homo sum et nihil humanum mihi alienum est.

    Public throwing books and even so to speak for educational purposes is a public and not worthy act! Maybe you consider him professional ?! A good professional move when there is no argument. Even more professionally write a slander to the relevant structures of the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee! Oh well, enough about that.
    Quote: Iraclius
    Igarr, in science, one of the most fundamental principles is the principle of Occam. Entia non sunt multiplicanda super nessesitate. Those. the simplest explanation is the most correct. I have no information about the falsity of the Radziwill annals. No data that can be gleaned from other annals, including both western and eastern, it does not contradict. Consequently, it also does not contradict the integral scientific picture of the world.

    And why do you speak Latin all the time? Do you think it is more intelligible for professionals? Translate for the rest of the audience - highly professional! So what about the Radzivilovskii manuscript? Is it generally that, in your opinion, a companion, a source, a list ...? Or is ultimate truth not requiring further impartial study ?! I will explain to those who are not in the know that the very fundamental theory of the origin of Russian statehood appeared on the basis of one single leaflet in this annals! This leaflet, by its meaning, does not fit either the previous or the next page ... But this, of course, cannot cause any doubts! And who found this very leaflet? Answer yourself, you can in Latin.
    Quote: Iraclius
    Your confusion about German surnames is quite understandable to me. I understand and sympathize.

    Do you sympathize with me?!?! Let's better sympathize with Lomonosov together! Here he almost lost his life because of the criticism of the "great Russian historians" Miller, Bayer and Schletzer. And how he sat down to write Russian history so soon he died, probably of resentment! Other critics of the German dominance in the historical department of the Russian Academy of Sciences were even less fortunate - shackles and hard labor! Such a dangerous thing is this Russian story!
    And finally - so who published the works of Lomonosov ?! And Miller, who else! What about Tatishchev? And again, Miller! The truth is that somehow with the primary sources everything was unsuccessful - they were lost and lost ... But Miller found something he edited and published! After all, according to Miller, Russian is more understandable and simpler to Miller than Lomonosov!
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Oper
      Apparently you are going to determine what is books and what is not, what to burn, and what to leave! Not bad for a friend not from the gentlemen! Although not new!

      In order to determine you do not need to be from the race of gentlemen, dear. To do this, it is enough to be a decent person who cares about what and how his children are taught. Who can read and critically evaluate what they read. And draw the right conclusions. To do this, you need to have a good education and a certain amount of knowledge.
      For myself I will say this - I am a decent person, and not for me to judge for my knowledge, although I studied a lot and for a long time.
      Public throwing books and even so to speak for educational purposes is a public and not worthy act! Maybe you consider him professional ?! A good professional move when there is no argument. Even more professionally write a slander to the relevant structures of the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee! Oh well, enough about that.

      If you are so clinging to this act, then Fomenko and Nosovsky actually abandoned the public debate with experts for lack of arguments. The debate went unilaterally. Is it courtesy of the opponent? Further.
      Academician Ioffe was a great swearing man and somehow, while defending his dissertation, where he was a member of the council, he was asked to speak on the topic of his work. He got up and rhymed briefly: "How much water you quantize, you will still get x ... th". And what - you need to be offended by the academician? I, as a person, are much closer to such lapidarity than politeness with a snake smile and spitting in the back. Well, and wrote about slander ... You were there, holding a candle? No. Me neither. So let's leave this slippery topic.
      And why do you speak Latin all the time? Do you think it is more intelligible for professionals? Translate for the rest of the audience - highly professional! So what about the Radzivilovskii manuscript? Is it generally that, in your opinion, a companion, a source, a list ...? Or is ultimate truth not requiring further impartial study ?! I will explain to those who are not in the know that the very fundamental theory of the origin of Russian statehood appeared on the basis of one single leaflet in this annals! This leaflet, by its meaning, does not fit either the previous or the next page ... But this, of course, cannot cause any doubts! And who found this very leaflet? Answer yourself, you can in Latin.

      In Latin, I quote well-known quotes and winged expressions. I am sure that most readers know them.
      Yes, and I translated the thought of Occam, didn’t I? If I write in koyne you will be satisfied?
      About the annals I have already deployed answered. Repeat I see no reason.
      Yes, I am a supporter of the Norman theory of the emergence of statehood in Russia. As you can see, here I do not agree with academician Rybakov, so it’s difficult to accuse me of blindly imitating authority. I trust the testimonies of my contemporaries. For example, to Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenite and his treatise Πρὸς τὸν ἴδιον υἱὸν Ρωμανόν (I translate - On the management of the empire, Latin translation - De Administrando Imperio). I believe Ibn Fadlan and archaeological finds more. In general, the Norman theory seems to me more convincing. Your opinion, of course, is diametrically opposed? Do not share your opinion?
  32. Iraclius
    Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 06 New
    0
    Do you sympathize with me?!?! Let's better sympathize with Lomonosov together! Here he almost lost his life because of the criticism of the "great Russian historians" Miller, Bayer and Schletzer. And how he sat down to write Russian history so soon he died, probably of resentment! Other critics of the German dominance in the historical department of the Russian Academy of Sciences were even less fortunate - shackles and hard labor! Such a dangerous thing is this Russian story!
    And finally - so who published the works of Lomonosov ?! And Miller, who else! What about Tatishchev? And again, Miller! The truth is that somehow with the primary sources everything was unsuccessful - they were lost and lost ... But Miller found something he edited and published! After all, according to Miller, Russian is more understandable and simpler to Miller than Lomonosov!

    Why do you consider the theories of Lomonosov the only correct? In modern science, there is no Miller. So what? Where is that Lomonosov theory? Karamzin, now, accepted the Norman theory. Or did the Germans beat him on the head with his labors and forced him to do it?
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 10 July 2013 14: 35 New
      +4
      Quote: Iraclius
      Karamzin, now, accepted the Norman theory

      And Solovyov and Klyuchevsky are no exception. Somehow it is impossible not to notice "The history of relations between the Russian princes of Rurik's house", "Boyar Duma of Ancient Rus".
      Once again.
      If the Great Slavs were (and they were, there is no doubt), then it was a different ethnos (Antes, Wends?). Related, but different.
  33. Iraclius
    Iraclius 10 July 2013 15: 43 New
    +1
    It goes without saying that the other. Ethnogenesis of the Slavs in general is still a controversial topic. Funding with the collapse of the USSR sharply decreased. But this does not mean that Slavic studies have stopped and stopped developing. Studies are being conducted, excavations are underway, and there is no doubt that much will become clear on this issue over time. The continuation and development of the classic works of B. Rybakov and M. Gimbutas will appear. Including and the question of the beginning of statehood in Mother Russia.
    And one moment. Already today we can say that the ethnogenesis of the southern, western and eastern Slavic peoples went completely differently. But no one ever questioned the linguistic and cultural unity of these peoples, and whoever directly participated there - Turkic, Finno-Ugric and Germanic tribes - is the tenth matter. But for some reason, all the unfortunate researchers are focusing on this muddy topic of public attention, inciting ethnic hatred. Such an audience needs to be fought.
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 10 July 2013 16: 14 New
      +4
      Quote: Iraclius
      But for some reason, all the unfortunate researchers are focusing on this muddy topic of public attention, inciting ethnic hatred. Such an audience needs to be fought.

      Unfortunately, this audience is carried in their arms when it is required to "substantiate" the exclusivity of a host of Slavs in this or that country, inhabited, as a rule, by the same Slavs ...

      - You're russian?
      - No, I'm Ukrainian.
      - What's the difference?
      “We are different.”
      D.Statama's conversation with another companion in the "Carrier-2" (?).
    2. CTEPX
      CTEPX 10 July 2013 18: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Iraclius
      Ethnogenesis of the Slavs in general is still a controversial topic.

      The assumption of Fin that the Slavs, these are the first peoples glorifying Christ and his teaching, are not considered by you?
  34. Iraclius
    Iraclius 10 July 2013 18: 27 New
    0
    Fin and their assumptions ceased to be considered by me after the unilateral debate of representatives of official science and these gentlemen ended. They disassociated themselves from the dispute.
    As for self-name. The Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesarea in the VI century. writes σκλαβηνός. At that time, of course, the Slavs were pagans.
    1. CTEPX
      CTEPX 10 July 2013 19: 19 New
      0
      Quote: Iraclius
      Fin and their assumptions ceased to be considered by me after that

      An argument among martial artists - it does not fight according to the rules !, helps to win tournaments and earn money, but is not quoted among fighters).
      Another argument). The United States invites us to participate in a further reduction in nuclear weapons.
      Both the fighters and Putin are self-alleviating from the debate). Does this mean that they are wrong?

      According to Fin, "Slavs" is not a self-name. a common designation, such as "Jew").
  35. Iraclius
    Iraclius 10 July 2013 21: 05 New
    +1
    CTEPX, unsuccessful examples that have nothing to do with science.
    In science, there are such concepts as the evidence base, argumentation, substantiation of conclusions ... It was rejected by the Finnish Academy of Sciences.
    Why should I seriously consider certain inventions of the authors, which they do not bother to justify and publicly uphold? It is customary to defend one’s conviction and point of view in science with reason. No one should accept anything on faith. This is no longer science, but cheap populism and making money.
    "Slavs" is not a self-name. and a common designation such as "Jew"

    Has anyone been proven? Not. That's all I wanted to say.
  36. Opera
    Opera 11 July 2013 09: 31 New
    -1
    Quote: Iraclius
    In order to determine it is not necessary to be from the race of gentlemen dear. To do this, it is enough to be a decent person who cares about what and how his children are taught. Who can read and critically evaluate what they read. And draw the right conclusions. To do this, you need to have a good education and a certain amount of knowledge. For myself I will say this - I am a decent person, and not for me to judge for my knowledge, although I studied a lot and for a long time.

    That's all! And it’s not convenient to argue like that, because you have a certain amount of knowledge! You studied a lot and for a long time in order to get a DEFINED baggage of knowledge! And finally, you are a decent person in order to draw the right conclusions! This very precisely outlines the circle of all KILLING arguments unfortunately for so many modern historians and not only - it must be admitted! YOU EXPRESSED EXTREMELY EXACTLY DEFINED KNOWLEDGE Having received certain knowledge of someone (no doubt not stupid and educated people), you consider it not decent to seriously consider a different point of view. Get into a pompous position quoting winged expressions in Latin (which, in your opinion, most should know, most modestly remained silent)))))))), you will laugh)!
    Why are you writing to me about your decency and education ?! Those. I am not an educated and decent person for you in advance ?! Well, excuse me, why then write it ?! I don’t understand what books are right and which ones don’t - it means that, unlike you, decent people are no longer decent!
    I’ll tell you a secret))) in 1999 I graduated from the Moscow State Historical Archival Institute now RGGU, in 2005 special courses of the Academy of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation.
    Be a little more modest it will help not to look stupid, at least often! I will not quote in Latin, for you personally I will say in gypsy - cheese on nakharen manouche yachpe! I bet you know gypsy too!
    Quote: Iraclius
    Slavs "not a self-name. But a common designation, such as" Jew "Has anyone proved it? No. I have everything.

    Someone proved the Mongol - Tatar yoke in Russia?
    Has anyone refuted the decryption of Etruscan texts using Slavic writing?
    Has anyone proven Rurik’s ethnicity?
    .

    Quote: Iraclius
    Has anyone been proven? Not. That's all I wanted to say.

    But I have far from everything!
    For example, the statements of many and many ancient authors of the Greeks, Arabs ..., chroniclers, travelers about the Slavs, about Russia, which in no way do not fit with that dense grayness that reigns in historical science describing the Slavs and ancient Russia, are very interesting. A lot of questions arise! "I am obliged to convey what they say, but I am not obliged to believe it!" You certainly know who said it!
  37. sashka
    sashka 12 July 2013 08: 48 New
    0
    It must be assumed that in addition to the Mongols, the French, etc. we have no more history. And what happened before ??? Pagan Russia? And before that? Were we gone And under Alexander Nevsky it wasn’t, and EVERYTHING wasn’t in Novgorod. If I sway, I will write a whole work. And what was it RUSSIA? Can I get back somehow?