Military Review

Military reversal: how Russia gain modern defense

111
Russia decided to consolidate all the enterprises of the space industry within a single structure. Will it help? The answer to this question may be worth looking for in the military-industrial complex.


Soon a year, as Sergei Shoigu became Minister of Defense. The information sources generated by the minister, the abandonment of the footcloths, military exercises, physical training among the troops, do not yet give an idea of ​​how he is going to solve the key problem of his department, which has a direct and serious influence on the country's economy. This is a rearmament of the army, which requires a lot of money.

Many economists are skeptical of the task of rearming the Russian army, they say, no major wars threaten us in the near future, the growth of government spending has already reached a dangerous limit, their further increase is fraught with a slowdown in the economy. However, rearmament cannot be postponed - the level of technological backlog of our army becomes critical, we can no longer live with the Armed forces equipped at the level of the second half of the XNUMXth century. In this sense, the country's authorities striving to use the current peace for Russia historical period for the modernization of the Armed Forces can be understood. In addition, the rearmament of the army is one of the projects that can seriously support economic growth.

It is logical that the state defense order increased from 300 billion rubles in 2007 to 1,3 trillion rubles in the current and could exceed 2 trillion rubles a year in the second half of the decade. Nevertheless, the real success is not visible: the pace of rearmament is low, there are many questions for new developments. And all this despite the huge costs.

Why? From the beginning of 2000, with the coming to power of Vladimir Putin, the policy regarding the defense industry was built on one very important idea - centralization.

Integrated holdings that united a wide range of design bureaus and enterprises — United Aircraft Building and Shipbuilding Corporation (UAC and USC), Almaz-Antey, Rostec (former Rostekhnologii), Moscow Institute of Heating Engineering "(The manufacturer of Topol-M, Iskander, Bulava), Tactical Missile Weapons, etc.) From an economic point of view, this meant one thing - the monopolization of the military-industrial complex, and therefore a huge risk that any subsequent Elijah will turn to the army re-growth of price tags without much success in the creation and delivery of modern weapons to the troops.

Actually, the dissatisfaction of the main customer for defense industry products - the Ministry of Defense - periodically broke through in price wars against manufacturers (the loudest conflict, of course, was the confrontation with USC for the purchase of submarines), then in making decisions about purchasing military equipment abroad. However, the ex-minister Serdyukov could not do anything systematically with the growing monopolism of producers, the situation inevitably fell into the plane of personal and clan conflicts, in which Serdyukov eventually lost.
For any defense minister, the main question is what to do with the monopolies of the defense industry.

In the defense complex, it is necessary to begin work as soon as possible on analyzing the effectiveness of this model and developing an alternative.
It is not necessary to crush defense enterprises. Privatization is not a panacea either, the defense industry may remain in the hands of the state (although many manufacturers of weapons in developed countries are in private hands). However, even under state control, it is highly desirable to create several competing production and development centers. weapons. That was even in Soviet times. The result of monopolization and lack of alternatives can be not only inflated prices, but also the death of significant capital and risks to the country's defense. Let us recall the story of the acceptance of the Bulava missile, which, despite the high percentage of unsuccessful launches, was simply "dragged" - because, according to the officials of the Ministry of Defense, there was nothing to replace it with.

If Sergei Shoigu does not raise the issue of the global reversal of the policy of centralization and monopolization of the military-industrial complex with the aim of developing competition, it will face either Serdyukov’s fate (violent price wars with monopolists-producers with the prospect of losing their post), or the lot of a weak minister - a “checkbook” for all-powerful lobbyists from the defense industry. In this case, they are guaranteed to eat up huge budgets, but may well leave us without a modern army.
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  1. Arberes
    Arberes 8 July 2013 10: 25
    12
    It’s not necessary to crush the defense industry hard. Privatization is also not a panacea, the defense industry may remain in the hands of the state (although many arms manufacturers in developed countries are in private hands). However, even under state control, the creation of several competing arms production and development centers is highly desirable. That was even in Soviet times.
    Here are my keywords! Competition, but under unobtrusive state supervision !!!
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 8 July 2013 10: 48
      35
      Comrade Stalin had no problems with the monopolies. Because Comrade Stalin was able to delve into the problems of how to make airplanes, how to make tanks, which of the generals is capable of what.

      And modern effective managers are not able to understand the problem that they are leading. For them, only financial flows and outflows are important, and, in other respects, for them all operations are of the same type.
      1. shamil
        shamil 8 July 2013 11: 05
        -4
        what now sharashka to revive and settle there designers and managers?
        1. domokl
          domokl 8 July 2013 11: 30
          16
          Absolute nonsense. What kind of control over production, if the plants simply do not have time to fulfill orders? The defense industry complex got so dead to Rogozin that it’s premature to speak of any maneuver possibilities now.
          The state defense order is huge and it is planned even more, only to whom and on what to do it? Factories are sitting stupidly without personnel. Those who can do it are far from pensioners ... Young people can only talk now. No vocational schools are there. , which the defense industry enterprises have not seen yet .... years.
          In order to work, it is necessary to modernize, train personnel and introduce real control on the part of military representatives. But this is a perspective
          1. discard
            discard 8 July 2013 13: 07
            -4
            The only more or less reasonable comment. The rest are all nonsense about Serdyukov, then about the great Stalin and the effectiveness of the military-industrial complex of the USSR, then about corruption, then about punishment ...
            In fact, in order to ensure the creation of QUALITY WEAPONS, in addition to what was said in the commentary, it is necessary to create conditions for the developers and manufacturers to fight for their quality.
            And this is possible only in conditions of fierce competition.
            And while the entire military-industrial complex will be in the hands of the state, this, for obvious reasons, cannot be realized.
            As for the Soviet military-industrial complex, those who personally came across the then-weapons are well aware how industry turned great ideas into a huge number of surplus weapons with a very low quality - they were chasing the quantity.
            They completely forgot what Lenin wrote - "Better less, but better".
            1. Misantrop
              Misantrop 8 July 2013 15: 01
              +3
              Quote: discard
              And this is possible only in conditions of fierce competition.
              And while the entire military-industrial complex will be in the hands of the state, this, for obvious reasons, cannot be realized.

              IMHO stupidity in the Gaidar style. Fierce (honest) competition is possible ONLY in the conditions of an unbiased competition, which is a priori impossible, a company richer and closer to financial flows will ALWAYS sell its product. Most often, just stupidly ruining competitors. Is there much competition in the manufacture of American nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, and at least fighters? Or, to hell with it, small arms, not unit, but mass?
            2. Sobol
              Sobol 8 July 2013 15: 59
              0
              And Lenin wrote that it was necessary to shoot cashiers or accountants ...
            3. Garysit
              Garysit 8 July 2013 19: 46
              +2
              NASA look at the structure, in it even Werner von Braun continued to create rockets. And competition is not necessary at all, this is stupidity from stupid economists ...
            4. dustycat
              dustycat 8 July 2013 20: 49
              +2
              And which private traders will honestly compete fiercely among themselves?
              For today's "effective managers" - tough competition is the order of a competitor to killers. To cops or legalists or other "legalists".
              Private capital will never be interested in fierce competition - the main task of the private trader is to keep the company with maximum income.
              And investing in training reduces income. Although it improves the survival of the enterprise. But income is greatly reduced.
          2. Vovka levka
            Vovka levka 8 July 2013 15: 00
            -1
            Quote: domokl

            In order to work, it is necessary to modernize, train personnel and introduce real control on the part of military representatives. But this is a perspective

            You have to pay money, the time of patriotism is over. But to pay not to everyone in a row, having made leveling, but to those who pull the job. If you want to earn, live, work.
            1. domokl
              domokl 8 July 2013 20: 48
              +1
              Quote: Vovka Levka
              Need to pay money

              Money is paid to those who earn it. But what can anyone who can wear or dig anything else earn money? Patriotism and other things cannot be denied as an incentive, so you shouldn’t take such an offense at it. But a specialist should work, not a layman .And young people are almost completely managers now ... and we need engineers, technicians, and workers.
            2. dustycat
              dustycat 8 July 2013 20: 53
              +1
              The answer is incorrect.
              The shaft began in the late 1960s. This shaft of the USSR and sentenced.
              Salary should depend on the quality of the product. But only.
              Did it qualitatively - get it at the box office. Made a marriage - pay to the cashier or smear your forehead with green paint. This is the basis of a socialist economy.
              As soon as it was canceled, the collapse of the USSR began.
          3. dustycat
            dustycat 8 July 2013 20: 44
            0
            The factories are stupid and sit without personnel because their current directors, "successful managers", first of all got rid of the factory-owned PUs and technical schools.
            What else to expect?
            1. domokl
              domokl 8 July 2013 20: 52
              +2
              Quote: dustycat
              That is, their directors, "successful managers", first of all got rid of the factory-owned PUs and technical schools.

              But what kind of shisha did they have to keep them? The first were sold not vocational schools, but pioneer camps, recreation centers, kindergartens and the entire social network. ... cut everyone and everything
        2. Sobol
          Sobol 8 July 2013 16: 04
          +1
          Why both those and others and even together? Settle only designers, and shoot managers. am
        3. KERGUDU BIMBAR
          KERGUDU BIMBAR 8 July 2013 21: 55
          0
          THE TIME!
          MAYBE PROTONS WILL STOP FALLING.
          HOW IT ALL REACHED.
      2. mark7
        mark7 8 July 2013 11: 25
        16
        And Comrade Stalin knew how to punish thieves, at an early stage
      3. Vovka levka
        Vovka levka 8 July 2013 14: 57
        +4
        Quote: Nikolay S.
        Comrade Stalin had no problems with the monopolies. Because Comrade Stalin was able to delve into the problems of how to make airplanes, how to make tanks, which of the generals is capable of what.

        And modern effective managers are not able to understand the problem that they are leading. For them, only financial flows and outflows are important, and, in other respects, for them all operations are of the same type.

        Everyone must do their job.
        Analyze who leads, godfather, brother, matchmaker, and so on. In general, in most cases they have a vague idea of ​​what their production produces.
        As they say, a general who was not a soldier is bad.
      4. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 8 July 2013 15: 16
        +2
        "In other words, do we have the correct economic management of factories, factories, mines? Is everything all right here?"
        Unfortunately, not everything is going well here. And we, as Bolsheviks, must say this directly and openly.
        What does it mean to run production? We do not always have a Bolshevik view of the question of managing enterprises. We often think that to lead is to sign papers, orders. It's sad, but true. Sometimes you involuntarily remember Shchedrin's pompadours. Remember how the pompadour taught the young pompadour: do not rack your brains over science, do not delve into the matter, let others do it, it is not your business, it is your business to sign the papers. We must admit, to our shame, that among us Bolsheviks there are quite a few of those who lead by signing papers. But in order to delve into the matter, master the technique, become the master of the business - on this score, no, no. "
        from the speech of I.V. Stalin 1930
      5. JIaIIoTb
        JIaIIoTb 8 July 2013 15: 52
        +2
        Serdyukov had such a trick, reporting to the Supreme Commander about the completion of a particular task, he said we all made money allocated. Nikolay You are absolutely right all these "effective" managers think exclusively of money. I have no thoughts about personnel, equipment and actually any process at all.
        And the whole mess we have is precisely because such "effective" ones sit in key places. And until we shake them off, we will play the game of pull-push. Someone will come up with something good, and there will be a crowd of "effective" who will effectively bring everything to the point of absurdity.
        Sincerely.
      6. Sobol
        Sobol 8 July 2013 16: 10
        +1
        If "modern effective managers are not able to understand the problem they are managing," then they are not at all effective and it means that they do not care about their leadership.
      7. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 8 July 2013 20: 40
        +5
        Quote: Nikolai S.
        And modern effective managers are not able to understand the problem that they are leading. For them, only financial flows and outflows are important, and, in other respects, for them all operations are of the same type.


        We meet with the RF Ministry of Defense and a group of nimble young people with shifting eyes. The question of the future of the enterprise, which employs 3,5 thousand people. Then I first heard this definition: "effective manager". Pretended to be a hose and so naively ask: “What does“ EFFECTIVE MANAGER ”mean? One of the quickie wrinkled his forehead and began to sing songs to me on economic topics. I interrupt him: but in a simple way, on the fingers, what does this mean? - It turns out that everything is very just unfinished monetarists: An effective manager is considered to be a manager who brings the company an income not lower than the% rate on the capital invested in the bank, which he is entrusted with managing! AND ALL !!! And no worries about the employee who hunches down to feed his family, no worries about the city-forming value of this plant, nor about marketable products: sales, logistics, etc.
        I ask him: where did he work, what did he do, where did he study? Again, everything is simple: the Faculty of Economics of Moscow State University (!), Postgraduate studies, internships in Britain and then to the "team". And who is dad? Head of the Department of the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade ... Oh! bump.
        So snotty boys who didn’t smell gunpowder, who didn’t stand by the machine, and who were not masters of production, began to speculatively steer and give advice to those in power.
        And you ask, why is it so bad? THEY LIKE THE DEAD: IRON RUBLES (DOLLARS) ON THE EYES. and because of them the people cannot be discerned, and the country's problems too. So until professional production workers inside out who know all the industry’s problems, we don’t see any luck!
      8. dustycat
        dustycat 8 July 2013 20: 41
        +1
        That's right.
        "Effective managers" have the same answer to all sensible proposals, "DO NOT WORRY!"
        They are easy to identify by this answer.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 8 July 2013 11: 08
      +9
      Quote: Arberes
      Competition, but under unobtrusive state supervision !!!


      Under tight control, with special sanctions enshrined in the Criminal Code regarding theft in the defense industry
      1. Arberes
        Arberes 8 July 2013 11: 14
        10
        Quote: Vadivak
        Under tight control, with special sanctions enshrined in the Criminal Code regarding theft in the defense industry

        Yes, something stiffness is not visible yet?

        Not the 37th

        The president of the country once said to people
        What, according to our laws, are they all equal?
        Close-up, clear plan - clean, clear view
        Well, Skrynnik and Serdyukov never sit!
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 8 July 2013 11: 20
          +4
          Quote: Arberes
          Yes, something stiffness is not visible yet?



          And I don’t argue with you, it’s not visible already
      2. domokl
        domokl 8 July 2013 11: 34
        +4
        Quote: Vadivak
        special sanctions enshrined in the Criminal Code relating to theft in the defense industry
        Yeah .. and planting spikelets. You won’t especially turn in the defense industry. They steal on the way and on the way out. What will control if there are no specialists?
        I at one time in one of the SKB in the workshop exhaled for a part .. it’s random (well, I didn’t know that it was polished). The part was sent to the marriage right away, and I went outside to prevent someone else’s work. So, there were 15 percent of the workshop youth and as many old people. After the boys were trained at technical schools how to work. And now, there are almost no youth ...
        1. Arberes
          Arberes 8 July 2013 11: 46
          +1
          Quote: domokl
          Yeah ... and plant for spikelets.

          There were excesses in the field!

          Quote: domokl
          I at one time in one of the SKB in the workshop breathed out on a part .. it’s no coincidence (well, I didn’t know that it was polished). The part was sent to the marriage right away, and I was sent outside to prevent someone else’s work.

          But for this you would have been shot as a pest! Well, under Stalin, of course. hi
          1. Vovka levka
            Vovka levka 8 July 2013 15: 08
            +2
            Quote: Arberes

            But for this you would have been shot as a pest! Well, under Stalin, of course. hi

            Shooting a thing is not tricky, you don’t have much mind. And to do something worthwhile, it must have brains.
        2. Vadivak
          Vadivak 8 July 2013 11: 49
          +4
          Quote: domokl
          In the defense industry you won’t especially turn it around.


          And why then did Serdyukov want to abolish military representatives? Do not steal?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 8 July 2013 11: 52
            +1
            Quote: Vadivak
            And why then did Serdyukov want to abolish military representatives? Do not steal?


            Because this scheme is not effective under capitalism.
            1. Vadivak
              Vadivak 8 July 2013 12: 13
              +3
              Quote: Spade
              Because this scheme is not effective under capitalism.


              I understood jokingly that since the time of Peter it was effective, effective under socialism, and now we are rediscovering capitalism
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 8 July 2013 12: 31
                +4
                This is not a joke, it is a reality.

                Huge money, and on the way to it some military representative. The weak are bought, the incorruptible "leave." Communicated with one ex, two attacks, but the man was not timid. And then we approached our daughter at the exit from school and asked to say hello to dad. He immediately asked for a translation. His predecessor was so "well received" in a dark alleyway that he was discharged from the army on disability.
            2. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 8 July 2013 21: 04
              +2
              Quote: Spade
              Because this scheme is not effective under capitalism

              This scheme is effective with any method of production, and especially with capitalism! Try to screw 100 000 a batch of parts, because randomly selected instances did not pass the test! Here, the economy will crush any inspector - and therefore not profitable to the tycoons. It is easier for them to return the cars in batches back to the stable to correct defects, but to promote it all as a concern for the consumer and the quality of the products. And now try to return the encapsulated missiles of the C-300 complex ... What, weak? We learn about the contact details of aircraft only after the crash, and if there were military envoys, you look and wouldn’t have assembled these parts, and we would save the lives of the children. So you need a tsar’s eye at all times, especially under capitalism, when the main thing is PROFIT!
          2. domokl
            domokl 8 July 2013 12: 08
            0
            Quote: Vadivak
            And why then did Serdyukov want to abolish military representatives?

            And how are military representatives and theft interconnected? And they were removed from the factories simply because there was no military production at these factories. And if there is no GOZ, why should officers be kept there?
            1. Vadivak
              Vadivak 8 July 2013 12: 24
              +3
              Quote: domokl
              And how are military representatives and theft interconnected? And they were removed from the factories simply because there was no military production at these plants.


              A military factory where there is no military production? For your information, military representatives at one time cut off the SSJ-100 superjet, otherwise it fell apart at maximum load.

              As for how military representatives can stop the theft, think about how the controller can, and the military representative is the controller, not to see a frank marriage, counterfeit, etc. after all, high-ranking officials can say: “Accept! Fly! ”
              1. domokl
                domokl 8 July 2013 12: 53
                +1
                Quote: Vadivak
                A military factory where there is no military production?

                It doesn’t sound sad, but just like that. A military factory where there is no military production. That is precisely why many cities are still bent by unemployment and hopelessness. And the factories, even now (under the State Defense order and other conversations), will be reshaped to issue plates and spoons ...
                1. KERGUDU BIMBAR
                  KERGUDU BIMBAR 8 July 2013 22: 02
                  0
                  THERE ARE NO EFFECTIVE MACHINES,
                  AND INTELLIGENT LOCKS WITH PERSONAL BRAND.
        3. Vovka levka
          Vovka levka 8 July 2013 15: 07
          +5
          Quote: domokl
          And what will control give if there are no specialists?

          Highly qualified specialists have been trained for years.
          Out of 10, 2-3 people are obtained, and the rest is the average and lower level.
          A technical specialty requires talent and craving for this business.
          In fact, 20 years just profuca.
          As you look at the level of training and the desire to work, then swear words are not enough.
          They are surprised that the rockets are falling. It's amazing that they fly at all.
      3. dustycat
        dustycat 8 July 2013 20: 57
        0
        The 1977 RSFSR Criminal Code contained an article for violating GOST.
        The Criminal Code of 1991 does not have this article.
        And administrative work is easy.
    3. smel
      smel 8 July 2013 11: 12
      +6
      And I got the impression that the author is nostalgic for the bygone days and regrets an effective manager by the name of Serdyukov (I apologize for writing it with a capital letter). His struggle with those who wear epaulets, with the army as a whole, with the traditions of the officer corps is well known to everyone. So his next fight with the monopolists from the military-industrial complex should not be credited to him. The ears of his personal interest in such a struggle stick out very strongly. Apparently it's time for us to take an example from China, at least from the last death sentence there to the Minister of Railway Transport. You look, and all those in power who were in charge of the affairs of their ministries would take care, and would not try to find a feeder in this chair or publicize their person in it with mediocre and populist movements
      1. domokl
        domokl 8 July 2013 12: 14
        -1
        Quote: smel
        His struggle with those who wear epaulets, with the army as a whole, with the traditions of the officer corps

        Alas, even I found such a fight long before Serdyukov. Our history is such that officers are periodically destroyed. Remember Suvorov and his officers, who were ditched for the most part by Paul 1, remember the heroes of the Patriotic War of 1812, remember the revolution, remember the Stalin purges, remember the post-war dismissals the most respected, remember Khrushchev with global dismissal, remember the EBN, which dispersed the most prepared units of the GRU and the KGB ... So Serdyukov did not invent anything new ...
        And it started back in ... a hunchbacked year .. When the Novgorodians kicked Prince Alexander Nevsky out of the city ...
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. host
      host 8 July 2013 11: 31
      +6
      As Comrade Stalin said: Cadres decide everything !.
      But with the personnel policy in the country is very bad.
      Serdyukov stole billions, his subordinates stole billions, service people without waiting for money left the service. And the rest are not in a hurry to let the rest to the filled feeding trough, even if they are geniuses of military science.
      This is life, not the dreams of the Kremlin reformers of the Army.
      1. akmoa781
        akmoa781 8 July 2013 12: 49
        -2
        I agree with you! President Putin V.V. all the same, he will find the strength in himself and put the situation on the right track in the styles of Comrade Stalin.
    6. the polar
      the polar 8 July 2013 11: 37
      10
      Quote: Arberes
      It’s not necessary to crush the defense industry hard. Privatization is also not a panacea, the defense industry may remain in the hands of the state (although many arms manufacturers in developed countries are in private hands). However, even under state control, the creation of several competing arms production and development centers is highly desirable. That was even in Soviet times.
      Here are my keywords! Competition, but under unobtrusive state supervision !!!

      There can be no talk of any revival of the military-industrial complex, equal in efficiency to the military-industrial complex of the USSR. the fundamental basis of Russia's existence has been changed. Instead of the planned economy and industry of the USSR, which relied on the labor cost of the product and non-cash financing, today there is only capitalist industry, which exists to maximize profits and minimize the costs of the production process. It is high time to forget the fairy tales about "competition" which supposedly allows you to reduce costs and get high quality. Well, "unobtrusive state control" is generally an anecdote. All cartels and corporations have strong ties with lobbyists from the "power vertical" and all orders are distributed according to the principle "which corporation brings the most to the right floor of the" power vertical "and wins the competition. That's all the mechanics. Therefore, the costs of development and production will grow rapidly, and efficiency and quality will also rapidly decline.This is what we have seen for the last fifteen years from a potential enemy, as well as from ourselves.But the enemy has a much more powerful scientific and production base and funding, which is an order of magnitude greater than the Russian budget. no shoigi-putins will change anything in the situation, even if they really wanted to, because they are one of the foremost workers of capitalist labor in Russia.
      1. domokl
        domokl 8 July 2013 12: 23
        -2
        Quote: Polar
        to. changed the fundamental basis for the existence of Russia.

        I agree with almost all your conclusions, except the main one. It seems to me all the same it is possible. At a new level, without copying the Soviet model. The GOZ is the real knight for the development of industry. Huge money, naturally, gives rise to the same great desire to rake it for yourself.
        And from here, the state distributing state defense orders has the opportunity not only to control production (and the capitalist will allow it for that kind of money), but also, in case of failure to fulfill any order item, change the contractor. As is done in the same states.
        Another thing is that now we do not have such monsters that would be able to independently carry out state defense orders without the help of the state ..
        But in a couple of three years, I think, everything will be just that.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 8 July 2013 15: 10
          +2
          Quote: domokl
          distributing state defense orders, the state has the ability not only to control production (and the capitalist will allow this for such money)
          Will NOT allow. Otherwise, he will lose exactly this money. At least due to the fact that all his tales about "the complexity of development and the wild number of samples released" will not be difficult to verify. And find that all this is bullshit and linden. Well, the "monsters" themselves are capable of bending anyone, including the checking official. The same forum recently wrote that General Electric DOES NOT PAY taxes in the United States. It is not difficult to check this, but to force to pay ... even the presidential administration has a gut request
          1. domokl
            domokl 8 July 2013 21: 00
            0
            Quote: Misantrop
            Will NOT allow. Otherwise, he will lose exactly this money. At least due to the fact that all his tales about "the complexity of development and the wild number of samples released" will not be difficult to verify.

            But what prevents the state from giving public defense to such a capitalist? Naturally, if there are still a couple of three competitors? So, I consider the argument somewhat contrived.
            1. Misantrop
              Misantrop 8 July 2013 21: 20
              0
              Quote: domokl
              with a couple more of the three competitors?
              And what does the state need, quality products or the presence of competitors?
              Quote: domokl
              what prevents the state from giving SDOs to such a capitalist?
              On what grounds? Just because your nose doesn't let you stick it inside "your kitchen"?
        2. dustycat
          dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 09
          0
          In fact, all well-known private corporations have grown from state-owned enterprises.
          And Boeing and Lockheed and GM and others - all grew out of the state. And for government money.
          It is not important for a capitalist to do quality (quality is bought several times less often simply because it does not break), for a capitalist it is interesting to do a lot. And only the judicial system of elected judges who do not hesitate to satisfy millions of claims for compensation for moral damages for a penny commodity restrains the "Braking Company". And that's not always the case.
    7. honest jew
      honest jew 8 July 2013 13: 51
      -3
      just need to stop stealing !!!!
    8. Theophanes
      Theophanes 8 July 2013 16: 03
      +3
      I completely agree with Arberes! Remember: Stalin created competition among the Chief designers in aircraft construction, the Navy, etc. Memoirs of Yakovlev, Tupalev, Krylov. Having thrown out the experience of the Soviet regime in the trash, they dug up a problem that they themselves can’t solve. Liberist-shitty people are losing ground .That is, and cosmonautics will be reformed. But it is necessary to restore military acceptance with all rights. It is fair to pay workers, and not spend their money on keeping secrets. Return technologists and designers (albeit retirees), so that they teach young people.
    9. starshina78
      starshina78 8 July 2013 21: 02
      +2
      Private enterprises producing weapons for the country are not for Russia. Why? It is obvious . One has only to privatize any enterprise by "effective managers" (no matter what kind of products it produces, military or civilian) without state control, chaos begins. Those who worked in factories during the Soviet era know that for each enterprise there was a production plan in the event of a war. For this, machines and equipment were bought, which were little involved in the technological process of the enterprise, but in wartime, immediately on it (equipment) the production of defense products began. What do "effective managers" do? They immediately start selling, cutting into scrap metal that does not bring money, in spite of the fact that all this is needed for the war. Then comes the product review period, and the seeder plant starts producing condoms. All ! Workshops that are not needed are demolished (shopping centers are being built in their place), given to tenants (those who want and create, as long as the rent is paid). And the most important thing is that foreign sponsors (shareholders) either participate in the destruction of enterprises, or with their submission, or by pouring money in. And they are not fools! They will not support what could harm them, in terms of competition or in the case of the release of weapons. So the military-industrial complex is, and should remain in the hands of the state, and only under the strict control of the state. Otherwise, it will happen as with my native plant. Previously, the leader and monopolist in the production of specific types of equipment for metallurgy, oil and cement products, and now workshops. For that, all the documentation on the manufactured range of products was sold by the plant management ("effective managers") to China. How!
    10. starshina78
      starshina78 8 July 2013 21: 04
      0
      Moderator! Why are you so afraid that my comments will be read, and you stick them into the basement! This is censorship! It is not good !
    11. aksakal
      aksakal 8 July 2013 23: 02
      +1
      But I picked up the minuses on the last branch, where about the Palash-Palma air defense system. There I objected to someone who said that Broadsword is bullshit, you need to darken the Armor and that's it. Objected in the sense that the Broadsword and the chilled Shell are competitors, so let them butt through life for contracts with the Army and the Navy. And they pushed me cons. Of course, I don't give a damn about it, but I just don't understand the mood on the site, how much "hits" with my IMHO .... And this is important.
      And you are right about the subject - no one has come up with a better development stimulator than lively competition! And let it be! But Poghosyan needs to be rigidly disaggregated by love, to bring the MiG into an independent structure, as it was before. Otherwise, very soon there will be no MiG, and the SU will bend to degrade. I do not want such a fate to my two favorite brands
  2. SmacXnumx
    SmacXnumx 8 July 2013 10: 33
    11
    Serdyukov did not try to fight for the rearmament of the Army and Navy; he had no time for him; he stole money allocated for rearmament
    1. domokl
      domokl 8 July 2013 11: 40
      +2
      Quote: Smac111
      Serdyukov did not try to fight for the rearmament of the Army and Navy

      He had no such task. Serdyukov, like Putin, a member of the EBN team. And she was supposed to destroy the Red Army and the Red Army ... Medvedev from the same cohort.
      Only in his second parish, Putin was able to show his teeth. Therefore, the revival of the defense industry and the army with the fleet began. But look at the results-constant disruptions of the GOZ, postponement of delivery dates, protons falling.
      1. Normal
        Normal 8 July 2013 12: 47
        +5
        Quote: domokl
        He had no such task. Serdyukov, as well as Putin, member of the EBN team

        I thought that I had glitches - domokl, and not on the side of Putin belay
        But no, everything is still
        Only in his second parish did Putin manage to show his teeth. Therefore, the revival of the defense industry and army with the fleet began
        Yes, if the United States did not make it clear that the leader of any country could be overthrown by force, regardless of international law. If it had not been shown to the whole world that only strong armed forces and the presence of nuclear weapons are a guarantee of sovereignty, our military-industrial complex would have waited for money before the Carrotkin conspiracy.

        Even now, GDP does not have a systematic approach to solving the problems of the armed forces. Everything continues according to the old proven scheme; the creation of a monopoly, the allocation of this monopoly of funds, rollback. Only now they decided that the monopolies should not only saw and roll, but also produce world-class products. Hello opa new year. Not for these monopolies were created, there was no this function when they were created.
        "Beginning of work on landscaping, not for landscaping these works" Or rather for "landscaping" but a completely different property.
        1. domokl
          domokl 8 July 2013 13: 00
          +3
          Quote: Normal
          But no, everything is still

          laughing Exactly so. The systematic approach that you advocate takes time. And we just don’t have it. All our cheers patriots do not read and do not look around. If now, with modern realities, they will put a lot of pressure on us, then we should there will be nothing. The army and the military-industrial complex in the state of the patient have recovered.
          And Putin ... I just have a neck more flexible than yours. And I can raise my head from the ground to see not only dirt and legs, but also the sky. And I see that the fence around us has become smaller, and the neighbors no longer laugh come to the zoo, but look at the strength and power ...
          1. Normal
            Normal 8 July 2013 18: 25
            +3
            Quote: domokl
            The systematic approach you advocate takes time.

            And Putin did not have much time? Not in order to implement a systematic approach, but in order to realize the need and at least formulate a program. But there are no signs of this. I, you, hundreds of thousands of other people understand that without a systematic approach it is impossible to achieve a result, but Putin still does not understand? Did he run out of time?
            The tactics tested at the beginning of the XNUMXs are still applied.
            Of course, now we have no time. And when did we have it? There is always no time. In general, a shortage is a property of all resources, and since time is the only resource beyond our control, anything can be justified by its shortage.
            And my neck (like yours) has nothing to do with it. I see the sky no worse than you, but I do not deny the dirt under my feet. Yes, life has become better (temporarily). Yes, we almost restored international authority (we really want to think so). But ask yourself, what next? What will happen when GDP does not become. Bickering over the throne? Troubles? If you have such a flexible neck (not back), look a little further tomorrow and enlighten me, what will happen?
            1. domokl
              domokl 8 July 2013 21: 08
              0
              Quote: Normal
              And Putin did not have much time? N

              The answer is in my first comment, from which our controversy began. Putin is a man of the EBN team and emerged out of nowhere. He knows very well the strength of this team, the possibilities.
              is it really not clear that a frontal attack in our situation will not achieve anything. Here and now he is knocking out financial support, ideological and removing the most active ... Otherwise, they will simply remove it, literally.
  3. serge-68-68
    serge-68-68 8 July 2013 10: 33
    16
    No centralization or decentralization, i.e. no reforms will produce results without responsibility. And a very strict responsibility. Examples:
    1. The death penalty (albeit with a reprieve) for the former railway. Minister of China for $ 10 million bribes.
    2. 90 years in prison for killing Russian tourists with counterfeit alcohol to each of the two producers in Turkey.
    3. The death penalty by hanging for a motorcyclist who robbed a passerby (took off his jacket and took his bag) in Iran.
    We have one chatter and the next U-turns ...
    And one more thing: holding companies and other associations are great! But where for all these bosses to find qualified fitters, foremen, technologists, engineers? The situation with the personnel at the enterprises leads to complete hopelessness ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 8 July 2013 10: 35
      +1
      Quote: serge-68-68
      without responsibility. And a very strict responsibility.
      Then not RESPONSIBILITY, but CONTROL. As it was said earlier - "beatiyo determines consciousness ..."
    2. ultra
      ultra 8 July 2013 10: 59
      +2
      Quote: serge-68-68
      The death penalty (albeit with a reprieve) for the former railroad Minister of China for $ 10 million bribes.

      Note even this does not protect against embezzlement! Only absolute transparency in the field of pricing and minimizing the role of the official in decision-making related to finances will allow (* not to completely eliminate this is unrealistic) to minimize corruption! hi
      1. shamil
        shamil 8 July 2013 11: 16
        0
        but it’s not on such a scale as ours on the body show our exposed officials are not x ........... not afraid
        1. ultra
          ultra 8 July 2013 14: 03
          0
          Since 2000, about 10 thousand officials have been shot in China for corruption, another 120 thousand have been sentenced to 10-20 years in prison. If the SYSTEM allows it to be stolen, the Chinese system crisis is akin to ours! hi
      2. mark7
        mark7 8 July 2013 11: 34
        +4
        Quote: ultra
        Note even this does not protect against embezzlement!

        For some reason, before Khrushchev everything protected and worked, people should be assigned according to their profile and be able to select
        1. ultra
          ultra 8 July 2013 14: 06
          +1
          Quote: mark7
          For some reason, everything was protected before Khrushchev.

          Teach political economy! In the USSR, cash turnover in the economy was absent as such, GOSPLAN, GSSNAB, all through them, therefore, corruption in the current form could not exist there. hi
          1. mark7
            mark7 8 July 2013 20: 55
            0
            I think it’s shameless that I’m studying all my life, but I’ll say if you want, you can also steal in the USSR, people believed in the inevitability of punishment and it was a reality, but thanks for the advice
            1. Cat
              Cat 8 July 2013 21: 17
              +2
              Quote: mark7
              but I’ll say, if you wish, you can also steal in the USSR, people believed in the inevitability of punishment and it was a reality

              The highlight of the Soviet system was not the inevitability of punishment. The trick was different: there was no point in stealing a lot and "in reserve". While the official was sitting in his chair, he already had all the benefits: special rations, special hospitals, special sanatoriums, etc. But as soon as an official flew out of this chair, he not only lost access to all these "specials", he also could not compensate for it at the expense of what was stolen in advance. So how "those who need it" immediately came and asked - where did the firewood come from? And they quickly wrote out a "ticket to Siberia", without bothering with the opinion of any "human rights activists" there. In general, the owners of the stolen gold could only wither over it, but put it on and go out - no, no. The point is to steal in such conditions?
              Plus, this system quite successfully controlled itself: the higher-ranking chief kept a watchful eye on all the subordinates, so that they would not inadvertently build a dacha higher than his, or buy a car bypassing the "special queue". And in which case - stopped.
              It is clear that there were those who did steal and hoard ... but their number, in comparison with the livestock of the current "managers", as well as the number of stolen ones, can be ignored. Too small a fraction of a percentage will turn out.
          2. dustycat
            dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 18
            0
            Learn teach.
            It was during Khrushchev that left money appeared at collective farms and enterprises.
            And the black circulation of money arose under him. And the guilds.
            Under Stalin, the candidate for the guilds received promotion right up to the minister. And he had no reason to go to the guilds. Under Khrushchev, the ability to report became important - and His Majesty went rampart. And it made sense to the sensible manager to go to the guilds. There he worked without conscience and a deserted plan. Minimizing production costs and maintaining quality - because any violation of quality attracted organs and threatened health damage besides dismissal.
        2. Vadivak
          Vadivak 8 July 2013 15: 11
          +1
          Quote: mark7
          people need to be assigned by profile and be able to select


          People need to create conditions under which they will not be able to steal, under Khrushchev it was a minuscule, the resulting surplus workshops were put into circulation, you can’t tell a lot of things I agree with Mikhail
          1. mark7
            mark7 8 July 2013 21: 03
            0
            Quote: Vadivak
            People need to create conditions under which they cannot steal

            I’m writing about this, that’s what the leader of the country and the party should be, but for now he’s talking after his head and talking about 37 years
      3. host
        host 8 July 2013 11: 40
        +5
        And rightly so, we are not the 37th year.
        It is necessary to conduct more seminars on the fight against corruption, issue campaign guides and order commercials on TV about bad officials on TV.
        And trillions of stolen funds are a trifle, because they are not whose budget funds.
        Serdyukov for a well-deserved state pension, but don’t forget about monetary compensation, in dollars.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 8 July 2013 18: 05
          +3
          Quote: master
          More anti-corruption workshops needed


          Preferably in the colonies of settlements where students work
    3. Very old
      Very old 8 July 2013 11: 36
      +4
      = we have yet another chatter = And there will be chatter, because everything is done with an eye on the EU. But what ... is it needed? China does not look at anyone, does not listen to anyone, that they are buzzing in Brussels and Helsinki. And the whole world trades with him, everyone reckons with him. Only our partners in Europe.
  4. Yuri Y.
    Yuri Y. 8 July 2013 10: 37
    0
    In my opinion, the current centralization is a necessary measure. Not a budget or economy
    more will not stand. The question is how to get away from this if successful. All
    will be propped up by a rigid vertical of power.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 22
      0
      The most useless vertical.
      Under Stalin, there was also a vertical. Only the vertical of responsibility.
      You can - up, do not know how - into Zonov's dust.
  5. buzuke
    buzuke 8 July 2013 10: 39
    +3
    at a certain stage, centralization was simply necessary, it was necessary to collect the crumbling military-industrial complex, to stabilize it, which was successfully done. but the next stage - development, somehow slowed down. and here without competition there is no way. officials can be understood - it’s easier to manage large structures, but this greatly affects efficiency
  6. papss
    papss 8 July 2013 10: 40
    +5
    economists are skeptical about the rearmament of the Russian army - no major wars threaten us in the near future
    The one who is a skeptic in this matter is an enemy or a traitor ... But what if not in the near future? And that in their opinion, we will not rearm the army now, because nothing threatens ...
    If Sergei Shoigu does not raise the question of a global turnaround in the policy of centralizing and monopolizing the defense industrial complex in order to develop competition, he will either face Serdyukov (fierce price wars with manufacturing monopolists with the prospect of losing his post) or the fate of a weak minister - a “checkbook” for all-powerful lobbyists from the defense industry.
    , it seems to the Minister of Defense, coolly said ... he, by virtue of his position, can only raise a question. And the U-turn should come from Putin and Medvedev, actually from the founders of this policy ... Shoigu has a chance to make history if he brings the rearmament and equipment of the army on time ... without corruption scandals ...
  7. LaGlobal
    LaGlobal 8 July 2013 10: 49
    +2
    rejection of footcloths, military exercises, physical training in the troops - so far do not give an idea of ​​how he is going to solve the key problem of his department


    - this is only its beginning! The rest - time will tell! Destruction is always easier than creating and rebuilding.
    Remember how long it took him to make the Ministry of Emergencies as it is now.
    1. Very old
      Very old 8 July 2013 11: 51
      +1
      In the case of the Ministry of Emergency Situations it was easier with Duma, with finances - not a single faction, not a single party refused to the Ministry of Emergency Situations, it was a new structure, they made it practically from scratch. There is less theft in the Emergencies Ministry, while part of the army elite (and in the army) in writing off the army property saw the possibility of "cutting the dough." Everything was on sale at the root. Only recently this process began to fade. Serdyuk not only did not help return the honor of the Army to its previous high level, ... Perhaps I (and YOU all) will have to live to see the LEGAL landing ...
  8. Furnace driver
    Furnace driver 8 July 2013 11: 00
    +8
    With the advent of Poghosyan, the ready-made MiG project of what could have been PAK-FA was hacked in the bud. Although the MiGs have advanced much further than the Sukhoi Design Bureau. Almaz-Antey is the same garbage: after the merger, it is decided to produce the diamond c400 instead of the Anteev c300BM (or vice versa - I do not remember), which has characteristics in some respects superior to that of the competitor c400. After acquiring 100% of the monopoly, the performance characteristics of the developed weapons begin to be underestimated - this is unambiguous.
    The experience of the USSR has shown the advantage of several state bureau in one direction. At present, it was necessary to carry out only the unification of production facilities, but not the merger of all design bureaus into one corporation. This is a disaster, not to mention their corporatization.
  9. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 8 July 2013 11: 08
    +2
    It would be a wish, the Germans would have a desire, after the Versailles disgrace, to create a strong army and they created it, and they were constrained by a bunch of restrictions and the Entente troops in the Rhine DMZ, which, forgive me, kept the German leadership by the balls. In short, we created it from scratch, and it would take to fall upon Germany with the whole world, plus Hitler’s stupidity with the USSR. I don’t see any will or desire in modern Russia to create anything, just mooing and stealing around, plus wandering in the clouds and building castles in the air, well, to Rogozin and von Zekt, how from Earth to Saturn.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 29
      -1
      Only Hitler’s methods in this matter differed little from Stalinx.
      They are both socialists. And they knew well how to organize socialist enterprises. The USSR had the NKVD, the Reich - the Gestapo.
      The ideology of racial superiority of Anglo-Saxon prevented Hitler and complete ignorance of the ancient history of Germany. Too many Anglo-Saxonism-infected idiots were in Anenerb.
  10. Sochi
    Sochi 8 July 2013 11: 08
    +5
    Quote: papss
    economists are skeptical about the rearmament of the Russian army - no major wars threaten us in the near future

    Unwilling to feed their army ... Apparently skeptics are eager to feed the NATO army.
  11. Alekseev
    Alekseev 8 July 2013 11: 11
    +4
    The main thing in the revival of the defense industry is to create such a system that talented people are promoted to key posts.
    The director should not "push" his own child to the position of a leading or chief engineer, but a worthy one.
    This is possible only when the manager firmly knows that he is responsible for the task assigned by the "head" and to complete the task of creating new models of weapons and military equipment, good modernization of old ones, etc., without risking his head (or ass laughing ) he can relying not on bastards and relatives, but on real professional specialists.
    As the song says: "... but there will be no ships, I will leave everyone without x ..." wassat
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 30
      +1
      So it is necessary to build socialism.
  12. shamil
    shamil 8 July 2013 11: 11
    +3
    I completely agree: there should be competition between the design bureau and they cannot be united, let them fight for the state order
    1. Very old
      Very old 8 July 2013 11: 58
      +1
      An ancient disease: collective farms enlarge, disaggregate. To drive everyone into a heap, to disperse. Then hell, hell, again in the development behind ... More OKB, good and different !!!
  13. shamil
    shamil 8 July 2013 11: 19
    +1
    Where does Serdyukov live and live now, who knows? "Ostap Bender" damn it.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 8 July 2013 11: 32
      0
      Quote: shamil
      Where does Serdyukov live and live now, who knows? "Ostap Bender" damn it.

      Today, the message was again: Serdyukov caught in the sale of the lake

      Three billion rubles worth of fraud with lands in the Moscow Region were uncovered at the Ministry of Defense. 140 hectares of forest land and the so-called general's lake were sold illegally, at the same time at a lower price.
      As the audit of the Audit Chamber showed, the military should have been returned to the Federal Forestry Agency in the area of ​​the Nakhabino village of the Krasnogorsk district of the Moscow Region, which had previously been a training ground. However, by order of the Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov, they sold it at prices below market prices for a number of commercial companies.


      Only here again, the stool itself seems to have nothing to do with: On the fact of illegal sale of land, the main military prosecutor's office (GWP) began an audit. According to its results, a criminal case may be initiated against the heads of the property relations department of the Ministry of Defense.

      http://www.dni.ru/society/2013/7/8/255709.html
      1. shamil
        shamil 8 July 2013 12: 31
        0
        who has not sold the airspace of the motherland yet?
  14. gregor6549
    gregor6549 8 July 2013 11: 22
    +4
    Before talking about the defense industry, you need to decide on a military doctrine. Then it will become clear what types of weapons and military equipment are needed here and now, and with which you can wait a bit. And not try to copy stupidly what the United States and its allies are doing. The economy is not a rubber one, and people are already tired of waiting for a "bright tomorrow." They would have a brighter life today, you look in the same defense industry, and in your own, things would go livelier.
    1. Fin
      Fin 8 July 2013 14: 49
      0
      Quote: gregor6549
      Before talking about the defense industry, you need to decide on a military doctrine. Then it will become clear what types of weapons and military equipment are needed here and now, and with which you can wait a bit. And not try to copy stupidly what the United States and its allies are doing. The economy is not a rubber one, and people are already tired of waiting for a "bright tomorrow." They would have a brighter life today, you look in the same defense industry, and in your own, things would go livelier.


      Military Doctrine - Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of February 05.02.2010, 146 No. XNUMX, read.
      And what is bluntly copied? New ships, planes, air defense, missiles are being built ... There is no overload of the economy. Are you talking about whose economy?
      Life is brighter for people - I agree, but without jobs this will not happen.
      1. gregor6549
        gregor6549 8 July 2013 16: 50
        +1
        I read more than slogans like "to raise, expand and deepen" in every possible way, but a little specifics. Because of the shyness. Either to build aircraft carriers, or not to build, or to buy military equipment and weapons from a potential enemy, or not to buy. Either create conditions for competition, then merge everything into uncontrollable monsters of concerns. And while all this rushes back and forth, some clever little people from the same concerns and their controlling organizations of the Customer quietly saw the budget. Take the same ships. What's the use of brand new destroyers or elephant-like Mistrals if their air cover is more than weak. Those. as well as before the Second World War, there is no most important clear balance of the Armed Forces in terms of forces and means. Those. Of course, there will be enough forces for a retaliatory or preemptive nuclear strike. And if you have to bump without them, how then?
        1. Fin
          Fin 8 July 2013 22: 02
          0
          Quote: gregor6549
          I read more than slogans like "to increase, expand and deepen" in every possible way, but a little specifics.

          Do you think that it should indicate who the enemy is, how many missiles, ships, planes should be deployed against him ... Those who need to know where, how much and why.
          From the wiki:
          War Doctrine - declaration on state policy in the field of military (defense) security. This is a system of official views and regulations, establishing the direction of military construction, preparing the state and the armed forces for war, methods and forms of its conduct.
          1. sleepy
            sleepy 9 July 2013 02: 55
            0
            Americans openly appoint their enemies
            and act accordingly.
            The USSR openly recognized the enemy of NATO.
            Does Russia turn out to have no enemies?
      2. dustycat
        dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 32
        0
        This decree is about nothing.
        It is not for nothing that Putin is called "Kolokolchik".
  15. vot-te-raz
    vot-te-raz 8 July 2013 11: 24
    +2
    However, ex-minister Serdyukov could not do anything systematically with the increasing monopoly of producers, the situation inevitably fell into the plane of personal and clan conflicts in which Serdyukov eventually lost.


    Taburetkin is almost a hero (a sort of shtirlits in the 3rd Reich), but I thought he was a thief. It’s bad that the arms manufacturers calculated it so early and poured it into the UK. Nothing Tolik is a bad boy, for a can of jam and a basket cookies will not give out to the bourgeois in the face of the UK the secret of the Red Army. He should stand for another year, and hold out another, there help will come.
  16. Ross
    Ross 8 July 2013 11: 37
    +1
    Quote: Arberes
    It’s not necessary to crush the defense industry hard. Privatization is also not a panacea, the defense industry may remain in the hands of the state (although many arms manufacturers in developed countries are in private hands). However, even under state control, the creation of several competing arms production and development centers is highly desirable. That was even in Soviet times.
    Here are my keywords! Competition, but under unobtrusive state supervision !!!


    Shoigu doesn't have enough "weight" for this. In the conditions of the current intrigue, without the intervention of the supreme, the matter will not go. Will he go into conflict?
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 03: 04
      0
      Matthew Festing,
      Grand Master of the Order of Malta:

      “It was decided to award Sergei Shoigu a big cross in recognition of his contribution to the development of the Russian Emergencies Ministry and the role he played in providing assistance. This award is recognition of his contribution to strengthening ties, friendship
      and cooperation between Russia and the Order of Malta. "

      "... The Minister of Defense of Russia becomes a person who is officially
      in the secret Order!
      After all, the Order, in the initial sense of the word,
      - not a distinction, but a closed organization.
      The sign itself is evidence of belonging to the order,
      as a secret society ... ... being a knight of the Order of Malta,
      Shoigu automatically becomes a citizen of Malta.
      That is, it turns out that our Minister of Defense has dual citizenship ... "
      http://m-athanasios.livejournal.com/102887.html
      1. Xnumx kopeek
        Xnumx kopeek 9 July 2013 03: 27
        0
        Quote: sleepy
        Matthew Festing,
        Grand Master of the Order of Malta:

        “It was decided to award Sergei Shoigu a big cross in recognition of his contribution to the development of the Russian Emergencies Ministry and the role he played in providing assistance. This award is recognition of his contribution to strengthening ties, friendship
        and cooperation between Russia and the Order of Malta. "

        "... The Minister of Defense of Russia becomes a person who is officially
        in the secret Order!
        After all, the Order, in the initial sense of the word,
        - not a distinction, but a closed organization.
        The sign itself is evidence of belonging to the order,
        as a secret society ... ... being a knight of the Order of Malta,
        Shoigu automatically becomes a citizen of Malta.
        That is, it turns out that our Minister of Defense has dual citizenship ... "
        http://m-athanasios.livejournal.com/102887.html

        --M. Order - one of the Freemasonry. - Probably a "duck"?
        1. sleepy
          sleepy 9 July 2013 03: 37
          0
          "The Governor of the Moscow Region, the former Minister of Emergency Situations Sergei Shoigu was awarded the highest award of the Order of Malta -
          Knight's military cross for mercy, salvation and help.

          The award ceremony was held today at the Italian Embassy in Moscow.
          The head of the Moscow Region region, who stood at the origins of the Russian Emergencies Ministry
          and the leader of it for more than 20 years, congratulated the Italian ambassador to Russia
          Antonio Zanardi Landi and Prince and Grand Master of the Order of Malta Matthew Festing.
          "It was decided to award Sergei Shoigu a big cross
          in recognition of his contribution to the development of EMERCOM of Russia and his role,
          which he played in helping.
          This award recognizes his contribution to strengthening ties,
          friendship and cooperation between Russia and the Order of Malta ", -
          said Matthew Festing.
          He expressed confidence that the case that Sergey Shoigu started
          will develop "for the benefit of those who are suffering and in need of help."

          http://topwar.ru/16192-shoygu-udostoen-vysshey-nagrady-maltiyskogo-ordena-za-mil
          oserdie-spasenie-i-pomosch.html
  17. Conepatus
    Conepatus 8 July 2013 11: 43
    -1
    All this is solved quite simply. Buy 1000 minibuses like "Gazelle", repainted in black and work at night. In less than a year, positive results appear. It is good to click on any publicized defenders of human rights and lawyers, so as not to dare shout. Actually, it's time to tie up with this democracy. The Slavs do not have immunity from this nasty thing, like the Indians did not have immunity from alcohol. The Indians finished badly. Do we need it?
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 03: 30
      0
      And who will buy these notorious minibuses - the State Department with a list of Magnitsky?

      And the Indians did not end badly.
      They were finished by those who declared - "good Indian - dead Indian".
      To do this, they killed all the bison and spread smallpox among the Indians.
      Pitted the Indians among themselves.
      Poisoned the Indians with arsenic and mercury.
      1) Firearm shooting
      2) Biological and chemical won: infection and damage.
      3) Holodomor.

      And the alcoholism of the Indians - it was only later ...

      2. Infection of the indigenous population of America.
      "In June of 1837, the St. Peter arrived at Fort Clark, North Dakota. The result, if you don't listen to the American 'explanatory' chatter, is that two Mandan villages have been destroyed. Of the 1600 Mandans, only 31 survived ....
      The St. Peters resumed their voyage on June 24, 1837 to another Fort Union. Indian women were vaccinated there (ostensibly to prevent an epidemic). The vaccination proved fatal to most patients for the next 15 days after vaccination, there was a wild cadaveric stench in the fort that smelled 300 yards away. It was horror, in the fort someone went crazy, the vaccinated worms ate even before they died. "
      "From Fort Union, smallpox was spread by ship St. Peter to Fort McKenzie near the confluence of the Marias River in Missouri. The Blackfeet tribe suffered the same fate after vaccination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfeet. Assiniboin Indians lost entire villages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assiniboin. It is not known how many ideologists of the upper Missouri and Canadian valleys were infected with smallpox. Estimated number of deaths from 60 to 150 thousand local residents "http: //www.thefurtrapper. com / indian_smallpox.htm.
      1. sleepy
        sleepy 9 July 2013 03: 33
        0
        "The policy of constantly pushing the local residents to the west and confiscating their lands is over.
        100 million corpses and 95% of the local population of America have been genocided. "

        3. The Holodomor of Native Americans.
        "Buffalo grazed in the steppes (American bison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:American_bison_k5680-1.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muybridge_Buffalo_galloping.gif).
        60 million buffalo roamed the continent. The aliens saw them without a number. They described that you were looking at the steppe and beyond the horizon it seemed that the entire steppe was moving from the backs of the bison grazing on it.
        But by 1800, hardly one buffalo already existed east of the Mississippi, although about 40 million buffalo still remained to the west. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Extermination_of_bison_to_1889.png
        The hired hunters carried out the most effective shooting of all animals.
        Buffalo hunter Bill Cody boasted that he killed 48 buffalo in 50 minutes and killed 18 buffalo in 4280 months! "

        Here is a photo of the mountain of bison skulls: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile,_ca1870.png
  18. domokl
    domokl 8 July 2013 11: 46
    +3
    Quote: svp67
    Then not RESPONSIBILITY, but CONTROL. As it was said there earlier - "bitiyo determines consciousness ..

    The simplest thing is to identify and punish the guilty person. The directors of the defense industry factories survived for 20 years as they could, released anything, they didn’t know what. What kind of equipment purchases? there’s nothing. And now it’s started ... Come on. And to whom and on what equipment?
    But according to your logic, I didn’t fulfill it, I’m going to jail. You understand, the directors and managers of the defense industrial complex of the state defense order do not agree, they just can’t really honestly fulfill it. They want it, but they can’t ... And it will be another two years- three.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 35
      0
      And many of those Soviet directors appointed 40 years ago remain?
      And those that are - "effective managers" basically and nothing more.
      And besides, not everyone is swept away, but only those who could not organize the quality of the product.
      You can’t organize - don’t take it - don’t go into the competition for state orders.
  19. Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 8 July 2013 12: 10
    +2
    Revive military acceptance at factories at all levels of product readiness, and not only at assembly plants, but also at all that have even the slightest relation to the defense industry!
    Revive at all levels, from the order, to the finished product responsible, up to criminal liability with all the consequences!
    As they say to resurrect the order "227 - Not a step back!".
    Maybe with such a system, cuts in funds and fakes will stop!
    1. KERGUDU BIMBAR
      KERGUDU BIMBAR 8 July 2013 22: 15
      0
      REVIVAL PROTEH EDUCATION SYSTEM,
      AND SPECIALISTS OF THE MIDDLE TECHNICAL LINK.
      THOSE. LITERATURE LITERATURE LEADERS.
      RESPONSIBLE FOR QUALITY PRODUCTION PRODUCTION.
  20. shark
    shark 8 July 2013 12: 20
    +4
    What were the Soviet designers of military equipment, they were not indifferent people, patriots with a capital letter, enthusiastic, seriously worried about the fate of their homeland. What is the current generation of "effective managers" who are clearly entangled in their own ambitions of businessmen. These people will easily rot away any revolutionary the project if it does not bring profit. As they say, find 10 differences. There is probably one way out - you need to start from childhood. From the patriotic education of young people. To create oases of normal people. Not affected by the general liberalization of the brain. Then the result will appear. In the meantime, it remains only to control each penny, pull back, plant and plant again.
  21. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 8 July 2013 12: 22
    +6
    How does capitalism do it? The SGA does not have a military-industrial complex. Yes, yes, that's exactly what it is, if you approach the matter mathematically. They have firms that carry out military orders. Earlier, by the way, it was not so, therefore "military equipment" during, say, the Vietnam War was synonymous with a bad, low-quality, crooked product. That is, if a company is on a military contract, it is long and expensive. The company becomes impudent, lowers the quality below the plinth, delays the deadlines ... So they are now carrying out military orders by completely civilian firms, as part of their order portfolio. We can't afford it, we can't print enough money. We simply have nothing to create, but we will create - there is no one to sell the products of giant holdings like American ones. And we don't have many decades ...
    Consolidation and downsizing is always and everywhere - a method of rampant theft. Where is the trillion ?! Well, while enlarged, they lost something, something rotted, something fell apart ... through negligence. Who will answer ?! I had already quit by then, Ivan Ivanovich hadn’t taken up duties yet ... look for winds in the field. In itself, this action is absolutely useless, harmful and costly.
    What positive scenario can Rogozin lay here? In times of organizational chaos and general shake-up, you can try to remove the most stupid and greedy thieves. Because in the high-level management we have no specialists left at all, not a single one. And the range of tasks is radically changing, formalizing public funds for various private accounts is no longer enough, something needs to be issued. None of the modern "military-industrial complex" generals at the moment is able to release anything like that, only steal. So they will try to drive them away. Perhaps they will try to replace them with factory directors, some managed to survive, having a real higher education behind them, or even a non-stick degree (this is generally fantastic, but here ...).
    Of course, against the backdrop of a terrible desert, on which public funds are pouring, and from them only dust rises (towards the border) and no more results, this reform will bring results. But for the resuscitation of the military-industrial complex, this is absolutely not enough. We must not even ensure parity, we must have answers to any military threats that the West provides in abundance. And not in 30-50 years, but right tomorrow!
    Well, we will put directors in the leadership of the industry. They will come to the ministries ... but they will not receive money! That is, the whole year not a penny, and whatever you do - it is you who are to blame! Then they will be given money ... but they will not be allowed to work. And they will also blame everything on them. The system has been worked out a long time ago, how to devour a technocrat who is preoccupied (here is a lousy, ah!) With some kind of production instead of the venerable deed of high officials - the creation of groups for a systematic, unhurried, deeply echeloned derban of the state, this is just in the blood of our officials, in the bones ... Neither technocrats nor Rogozin can cope. And so it will be as long as the supreme power dull dejectedly “we are not in the 37th year” ... Until the 37th, it’s stupid to even stutter about the modernization of the military-industrial complex!
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 42
      0
      With equipment in the days of Vietnam, it was bad until the state order was placed at this enterprise. And when the order began to be placed at a ready-made competition, bribes to the generals increased, but the generals' liability increased - the generals became jurisdictional to civil courts.
      The lawsuit from the relatives of the deceased due to the poor ammunition of the soldier made the system of kickbacks and bribes unprofitable.
      Only this improved the ammunition of the mattress army.
      Which general is sentenced to compensation for moral damage to the relatives of the Pskov riot police?
  22. FFP
    FFP 8 July 2013 12: 23
    0
    A note about nothing. Why publish this? I was especially surprised by the author's "competent" position on Bulava. In his opinion, unsuccessful launches are a sign of the fundamental unsuitability of the product. Vladimir, I understand, I see that you are the same engineer as I am, but at least you can read the memoirs of the luminaries of rocket construction. For example, in B. Chertok's memoirs it is written that new missiles have always been made this way. An experimental batch of 20 missiles is laid, most launches of a new rocket are unsuccessful, and from these failures they learn how to make rockets in a large series. Why is that? Because it's cheaper this way, this is a method proven by our grandfathers.
  23. Grbear
    Grbear 8 July 2013 12: 26
    +1
    In the days of Stalin there was a system of penalties: Note - Warning - Shooting. You are a communist, then A warning you have.

    Much has been given to the leaders of the military-industrial complex, but much should be asked. I'm not talking about "new managers", because personnel for the military must (as before) be forged inside the system. Only these people can understand the peculiarities of military production. Imported pribluda is focused on "money efficiency" at any cost, which is not acceptable in the military.
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 03: 51
      +1
      Quote: GrBear
      "During Stalin's time, there was a system of penalties:
      Note - Warning - Shooting.
      You are a communist, so you have a Warning ... "


      Although I read about I. Stalin, I hear about such a system of penalties for the first time.
      http://greatstalin.ru/

      But I heard a lot about "Personnel Decide Everything."
      And the shots were arranged by I. Stalin.

      “On May 4, 1935, at the release of the red commanders, Stalin uttered his famous phrase:“ STAFF DECIDES EVERYTHING! ”.
      I.V. Stalin introduced this formulation into political life even during the years of industrialization of the Soviet state. When the leader of the Soviet people minted:
      “The cadres are everything,” he realized that each leadership team is called upon by the society to solve specific tasks that time sets. "
      http://mmera.ucoz.ru/forum/3-515-1
  24. individual
    individual 8 July 2013 12: 33
    +2
    Quote:
    "With the growing monopoly of producers, the situation inevitably fell into the plane of personal and clan conflicts, in which Serdyukov eventually lost."

    The furniture maker lost when he put the army on key financial flows reserve from the skirt battalion of girlswho attached their relatives to everything and all the posts sawed the defense budget.
    To make a full-scale military turn and put the defense industry at the proper level, it is necessary to exponentially punish the main hamster devouring the military budget.
    Serdyukov and Co. should sit for a long time and hurt.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 44
      0
      For stolen amount of mittens for soldiers sew.
  25. akmoa781
    akmoa781 8 July 2013 12: 39
    +2
    Some Russian citizens with big money (businessmen) think that playing on the needs of Russia in modern armed forces can enrich themselves with impunity, endangering national security. Apparently they forgot history lessons or did poorly at school. There is no need to go far for examples, it is enough to remember how the issue of rearming the army in the first half of the last century (1941-1945) was resolved. Therefore, it seems to me that the President will soon get tired of this orgy and some who will find out what it means to "wet in the toilet. Rearmament of the army and navy is a matter of life and death, and therefore decisions on this issue must be taken firmly and decisively and not hesitate to implement them, and those who will prevent them from determining a place beyond the Arctic Circle with a crowbar and a pickaxe in their hands.
    1. Conepatus
      Conepatus 8 July 2013 13: 22
      +5
      Strengthened GDP pretends that it doesn’t notice at all. A billion dollars have been spent on developing a black-and-white tablet, for grades 6 it’s normal for him. I would have made such a tablet for 300 million, 100 million for myself, a 100 developer, and another 100 - rollback for the contract. As a result, the result is the same, but three times cheaper. smile
      1. Normal
        Normal 8 July 2013 14: 44
        +5
        Quote: Conepatus
        As a result, the result is the same, but three times cheaper.

        That's why not you did this tablet. Rollback from a yard of bucks is not with 300 lyam. You need to understand fool laughing
  26. Russ69
    Russ69 8 July 2013 13: 24
    +1
    The Navy says that they will upgrade all TARK

    Due to the fact that the ship was carrying out work to dismantle the equipment, there were rumors about its possible disposal. However, the General Staff of the Navy denied these assumptions. "The issue of dismantling the surface nuclear cruisers Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Ushakov and Admiral Lazarev is not being considered. These powerful nuclear-powered ships are needed by the Russian fleet. They have no analogues in the world and will return to service updated and equipped with the latest weapons," he assured representative of the Navy.
    He specified that the "cruiser" Admiral Nakhimov ", the active phase of modernization of which will begin this year, is planned to be transferred to the Pacific Fleet." Following it, the cruisers "Admiral Ushakov" and "Admiral Lazarev" will be upgraded, - added the representative of the General Staff. According to him, obsolete radio-electronic equipment will be replaced on heavy cruisers and new computer equipment will be installed. The ships will be equipped with the latest weapons, including replacing the Granit missile system.

    http://www.dni.ru/society/2013/7/8/255733.html
  27. taseka
    taseka 8 July 2013 13: 52
    +3
    "Many economists are skeptical about the task of rearming the Russian army - they say that no major wars will threaten us in the near future."- And where, you, economists, suddenly become cool strategists and tactics of warfare? Maybe you directly GRU and SVR reports daily ?!
    1. Klibanophoros
      Klibanophoros 8 July 2013 17: 37
      +2
      Likewise, before the WWII, the economies of Europe were so messed up, they say, that no war would be beneficial.
  28. ksan
    ksan 8 July 2013 14: 15
    +1
    I agree with those who believe that the article is not about anything. So reasoning in the style of "the sky is blue and the grass is green." Who said that a private trader in the military-industrial complex will be more competitive? and what prices will be lower? And it is not the Minister of Defense who decides what the military-industrial complex should be. But what is being done now, the return of military representatives, the revival of military academies and universities, the restoration of the military-industrial complex, after the total sale in the 90s, I am sure will raise the Russian army to a much higher level. The problem is that a few more years of such a policy in the field of education will have to buy developers from abroad, but who will implement these developments? Well, maybe we will hire the Chinese, let them earn money. And we will "grimace" on YouTube and "bang our heads against the wall" and drag ourselves from our stupidity by +100500.
  29. mark7
    mark7 8 July 2013 14: 34
    +2
    Quote: Mikhail3
    Until the 37th, it’s stupid to even stutter about the modernization of the defense industry!

    Bravo-Michael completely agree +
  30. Klibanophoros
    Klibanophoros 8 July 2013 14: 48
    0
    Something seems to me that the Reich Minister of Arms Rogozin will not be better than the Soviet system, not devoid of its shortcomings. And he is not Speer, not at all.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 8 July 2013 21: 47
      0
      And he doesn't have "Pope" Mueller ...
  31. Metlik
    Metlik 8 July 2013 15: 19
    +3
    Quote: Nikolay S.
    Comrade Stalin had no problems with the monopolies. Because Comrade Stalin was able to delve into the problems of how to make airplanes, how to make tanks, which of the generals is capable of what.

    In the USSR under Stalin, talented people were sought and given to work. Degtyarev, Ilyushin, Yakovlev, Kalashnikov - this list can be continued for a very long time. But today, professionals are out of work - they prevent theft.
    1. mark7
      mark7 8 July 2013 21: 19
      0
      Yes, and he did not disdain to be a constructor with every personal conversation, or was he just a talented person, which is typical, he preliminarily studied the issue and people were simply amazed, how does he know about it?
  32. varov14
    varov14 8 July 2013 15: 33
    +1
    For the failure of the state order, the leaders of the defense industry complex must answer with their heads. It’s a pity there’s nothing to go into. Wolf ticket and instead of leadership in the defense industry complex in Siberia raise his mother the future nurse, closer to the Arctic Circle with his family. Knowing the possible future, the head will work in the right direction, and not count the profits. And indeed, anywhere in the world, a person needs demand, and if they ask from the bottom, the upper classes are exempted from any responsibility, and you won’t understand, in case of failure, whether they are fools or even higher ones who are even stupid.
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. SPIRITofFREEDOM
    SPIRITofFREEDOM 8 July 2013 16: 33
    +1
    How sad to read all these comments.
    This is just an American dream (((
  35. bubla5
    bubla5 8 July 2013 17: 10
    +1
    But everything goes with the knowledge and under the strict guidance of PU and ME, which means they are the main undertakers of the defense industry
  36. Master Taiga
    Master Taiga 8 July 2013 19: 18
    -2
    How can Russia gain a modern defense industry?

    No way. So far, talented people will spread rot in this country.
  37. Cat
    Cat 8 July 2013 20: 54
    +1
    Military reversal: how Russia gain modern defense

    how, how ... To take an example from the Chinese comrades: not in the sense of buying samples over the hill, studying and cloning - but in terms of the attitude towards the officials who steal. Stole is a capital measure with the confiscation of everything, and not house arrests with the right to go to boutiques, and excuses like "he didn't know, he was framed."
    Then the military-industrial complex will be at the level, both the combat-ready army and the well-fed soldiers.
  38. Backfire
    Backfire 8 July 2013 21: 46
    -2
    Quote: Nikolai S.
    Comrade Stalin had no problems with the monopolies. Because Comrade Stalin was able to delve into the problems of how to make airplanes, how to make tanks, which of the generals is capable of what.


    Yah! And who told you that?
    Read, for example, the book "On Peacefully Sleeping Airfields" (and the first edition is better)
    There, among other things, it deals with what can really be verified more or less after so many years - what decisions were made by the "effective manager" Stalin. What options did he have, which ones did he choose. This will help you understand how much he was "versed" in aviation topics and "personnel".
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 04: 06
      +3
      About the "manager" I. Stalin. Manager in quotes.

      "In the Battle of Kursk, Stalin found a way out of a hopeless situation:
      the Germans were going to use a "technical novelty" - the tanks "Tiger" and "Panther", against which our artillery was powerless.
      Stalin remembered his support for the development of explosives A-IX-2
      and new experimental bombs PTAB, and gave the assignment:
      by May 15, i.e. by the time the roads dry out, produce 800 thousand of these bombs.
      150 factories of the Soviet Union rushed to fulfill this order and completed.
      As a result, near Kursk, the German army was deprived of striking power by the tactical novelty of Stalin - the PTAB-2,5-1,5 bomb.

      The usual norm for Stalin to read literature was about 300 pages per day.
      He was constantly engaged in self-education.
      After his death, books with his notes from the library in the Near Summer Cottage were transferred to the Institute of Marxism-Leninism. There were 5,5 thousand of them!
      Stalin's personal archive was destroyed.
      Under Stalin, the country in difficult conditions, but in the shortest possible time abruptly rushed forward, and this means that at the indicated time there were a lot of smart people in the country.
      And this is indeed so, since Stalin attached great importance to the minds of USSR citizens. He was the smartest person, and he was sick of being surrounded by fools, he strove for the whole country to be smart. The basis for the mind, for creativity is knowledge. Knowledge of everything. And so much has never been done to provide people with knowledge, to develop their mind, as under Stalin.
      Stalin did not fight vodka; he fought for people's free time.
      Amateur sports were developed extremely and it was amateur sports.
      Each enterprise and institution had sports teams and athletes from its employees. More or less large enterprises were required to have and maintain stadiums. We played everything and everything.
      Stalin tore off diplomatic relations with Israel only for
      that something like a grenade was blown up on the territory of the USSR mission in Israel. This explosion injured mission personnel.
      The Israeli government rushed to the USSR with an apology, but the Stalinist USSR did not forgive such an attitude towards itself.
      Despite the severance of diplomatic relations,
      on the day of Stalin's death, national mourning was declared in Israel ... "
      http://greatstalin.ru/economylifting.aspx
  39. VenDora
    VenDora 8 July 2013 22: 46
    0
    Quote: shamil
    what now sharashka to revive and settle there designers and managers?

    Mangers definitely need
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 04: 15
      +1
      Designers should not be settled in sharashka, but given conditions for work ...
      and guard, and then so many strange deaths lately ...
  40. soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 8 July 2013 23: 26
    +1
    while new technologies will be sold abroad, we won’t raise the defense, they sell money to everyone and we don’t have enough for it su35 just made a speech in France and already signed a contract with china who remembers the case when some of the air defense was de-energized for the debts to the rao ees? we all understand who is behind it, so draw conclusions that the latest technology after its creation becomes the property of a handful of the ruling clan
  41. Zomanus
    Zomanus 9 July 2013 00: 27
    0
    Kapets, the experts here got divorced. Moreover, the majority operates with two or three parameters. And then in real life there are much more. And you have to operate here and now. And very carefully, that would not make it worse. So significant changes we will not see soon.
  42. Xnumx kopeek
    Xnumx kopeek 9 July 2013 03: 40
    0
    Quote: sleepy
    "The policy of constantly pushing the local residents to the west and confiscating their lands is over.
    100 million corpses and 95% of the local population of America have been genocided. "

    3. The Holodomor of Native Americans.
    "Buffalo grazed in the steppes (American bison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:American_bison_k5680-1.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muybridge_Buffalo_galloping.gif).
    60 million buffalo roamed the continent. The aliens saw them without a number. They described that you were looking at the steppe and beyond the horizon it seemed that the entire steppe was moving from the backs of the bison grazing on it.
    But by 1800, hardly one buffalo already existed east of the Mississippi, although about 40 million buffalo still remained to the west. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Extermination_of_bison_to_1889.png
    The hired hunters carried out the most effective shooting of all animals.
    Buffalo hunter Bill Cody boasted that he killed 48 buffalo in 50 minutes and killed 18 buffalo in 4280 months! "

    Here is a photo of the mountain of bison skulls: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile,_ca1870.png
    -
    -In the collider, the last bison remained. He runs there. His name is Higgs Bison.
    1. sleepy
      sleepy 9 July 2013 04: 21
      0
      Quote: 20 kopeek
      "The last buffalo stayed in the collider. Runs there. His name is Higgs Bison."


      Higgs bison lives in Atomland and feed on fresh, juicy quanta,
      he is well there.
      1. strange and pretty meaningless
        strange and pretty meaningless 9 July 2013 06: 34
        0
        This bison there is not just cutting circles. In popmechanik, even an article was squeezed about the prospects of weapons that change the Higgs field. The prospects are very depressing - if the development is promising.
        1. sleepy
          sleepy 11 July 2013 01: 19
          0
          All that Higgs bison is trampling on quantum fields
          fix Maxwell's Demon.
  43. strange and pretty meaningless
    strange and pretty meaningless 9 July 2013 07: 11
    +1
    However, ex-minister Serdyukov could not do anything systematically ...

    It’s time to no longer hesitate to call a spade a spade. He did what he did. He got it.
    Rearmament problems do not run into cosmetic defects of "capitalism" - namely, capitalism itself. Stalin is now often remembered - he was, in fact, a great manager. Lenin's grandfather is "for some reason" forgotten, but his assessments of rotten capitalism and its terminal phase - imperialism - are read very freshly. The goal of the capitalist is to maximize profits with a minimum of COSTS. The quality and quantity of weapons - as well as the qualifications of personnel, the state of fixed assets, kindergartens and pioneer camps for the children of employees - are exactly the COSTS. Although this is what took out the defense industry - and made it the locomotive of the country's development. With defective managers - read, gravediggers - all this is cut off. Therefore, in the current conditions, this paradigm -
    In addition, the rearmament of the army is one of the projects that can seriously support economic growth. - does not work. Because the holey barrel is not filled - both money and technology will flow away. And the state defense order is sooooo tidbit. Twenty TRILLIONS - to saw and saw.