Military Review

"Consistent pacifism has never been inherent in the Christian Church"

80
The sad day of 22 June 1941 of the year forever changed the fates of millions of our compatriots, most of whom since weapons in their hands they rose up to defend the Motherland from the German fascist invaders. Nowadays, not only the outcome and significance of the Great Patriotic War, but also the key concepts for previous generations - “loyalty to duty” and “love for the Fatherland". Portal Pravoslavie.Ru asked me to share my thoughts about this with the church doctor stories, a teacher of canon law at the Sretensky Theological Seminary Archpriest Vladislav Tsypin.


Priest Dmitry Orlovsky blesses the Soviet fighters before the fight. Oryol direction, 1943 year. Photo: S. Alperin


- What does the concept of "Fatherland" mean to you, as an Orthodox priest? Is it a territory, a people or more narrowly - neighbors, a family?

- I think this concept includes the territory, people and neighbors. It seems to be more correct to call the land on which a man grew, limited by state borders, because it is impossible to call the Fatherland, in the context of war with an external enemy, a separate place - city, village, village. Fatherland in the sense of the word we are discussing is still a state in which people of different nationalities can live. It was him who went to protect our fathers and grandfathers. The boundaries of this territory, of course, may change over time, so we consider it in relation to this particular historical time.

- From your family, someone participated in the war?

- Of course. Father, grandfather, uncle and other older relatives. I never saw my grandfather and uncle alive; one of them died at the front, the other went missing, probably also died.

- From your point of view, is patriotism a Christian virtue or some kind of external manifestation of human bias towards the earthly world, which is in no way connected with the salvation of the soul?

- It is obvious that patriotism, as a phenomenon, existed and exists outside of Christianity, outside the Church. But it is fully compatible with Christianity, but the opposite is unlikely. Just as the parallel is quite obvious - kinship with relatives - parents, brothers, sisters - this is something that existed before Christianity, but hostility or hatred of relatives is already incompatible with Christianity. Patriotism is a Christian virtue because it is peculiar to a Christian, although it is not brought into the world by Christianity.

It is erroneous to believe that only the last two or three centuries began to speak about the patriotic feeling of Christians. The word “patriotism” was only introduced as a term into Orthodox society in the 18th century, but much earlier our great saints spoke and wrote about the need for love for the Fatherland, who with their own lives set an example of how sacrificially we should treat it. The most striking example is the holy Prince Alexander Nevsky - the personification of the Orthodox patriot.

- Among those who defended our Motherland during the Great Patriotic War, there were quite a few Orthodox people, but now you can hear opinions that they thereby helped to preserve the God-fighting anti-church regime. What would you answer to such an accusation?

- This judgment is unfounded, because in our history political realities have changed, and the country, the Fatherland, the state, and the people are concepts that are incomparably more permanent than the political regime. Then he really was unfavorable for the Church, but it was an argument of a secondary order for those Orthodox people who went to the front or worked in the rear compared to the issue of state independence and the prospects for the very existence of the peoples inhabiting our country, first of all the Russian people. .

During the First World War, there was no question of upholding the independence of the Russian Empire, only of the territories, borders and place of the Russian state in the political system of the world, but Orthodox Christians were ready to defend these very earthly values ​​in arms, considering it their sacred, moral duty. .

- Today, sometimes the Russian Orthodox Church is also accused of the fact that during the years of World War II, in addition to the intensified prayer for granting victory, she was engaged in fundraising for the army, for example, to create tank columns, which then went to physically destroy the enemy.

- It is quite in line with the Russian tradition, which is based on the tradition of Rome and Byzantium, where the Church also fully supported the state in the struggle against an external enemy. If we turn to closer examples in time, in particular, to the history of the liberation of the Balkan countries from the Ottoman yoke, the Orthodox Church participated in this in the most direct way. This was the case even in the 20th century. It is known that the national liberation struggle in Cyprus against the English colonial regime was headed by the spiritual leader of the Cyprus Local Church, who personally led the rebels, who later became the first president of the independent Republic of Cyprus. I'm talking about the famous Archbishop Macarius. Similar examples can be found in the history of the Catholic and Protestant churches. Consistent pacifism of the Christian Church has never been inherent.

- In 1943, the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church condemned collaborationism and anathematized those who changed the oath, in particular General Vlasov. Opinions are now being expressed that the Council was not competent in this, since the acts of the preceding 1917-1918 Local Council, which were more numerous, included, besides clerics and laymen, bishops, political bans were forbidden. In addition, representatives of the first wave of emigration who participated in the war on the side of the fascists, who sincerely believed that helping the Bolshevik enemies, they are fighting for the liberation of Russia, were referred to the traitors by the Soviet authorities. Among them were many Orthodox Christians. How do you assess this situation?


- Indeed, the 1943 Council adopted a special definition, which read: “The Holy Orthodox Church, both Russian and Eastern, has already issued its condemnation of traitors to the Christian cause and traitors to the Church. And we, today, gathered in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, reaffirm this condemnation and decide: whoever is guilty of betraying the general church cause and has gone over to the side of fascism, as an opponent of the Cross of the Lord, should be excommunicated, and the bishop or cleric deprived of dignity ” .

The Council of Bishops of 1943 was recognized to be fully legitimate due to the fact that no one in other Local Churches at the level of the highest ecclesiastical authority challenged the lawfulness of electing Metropolitan Sergius (Stragorodsky) as Patriarch, and his elections were held at this Council. In this regard, the question of the legitimacy of the Council is not worth it. Canonically, he had complete power, due to the fact that the participation or non-participation of clerics and laity fundamentally does not affect the canonical authority of the Council. The absence of many bishops in it for a completely good reason is also undoubtedly of no fundamental importance, since in church history it was not the case that absolutely all those who had this right in their archpastoral dignity participated in the councils.

Personally, as far as I know, nobody was anathematized at this Cathedral, including Vlasov. If it were a personal anathema, this question should have been studied in detail beforehand, a church-judicial process should have gone through, which then, of course, did not exist. The conciliar anathema to the traitors was nevertheless an act of a declarative nature, the purpose of which was to remind those who committed treason of the need for repentance, and those who intend to change - the severity and moral consequences of this step. It is known that anathemas in the church history of Russia were also uttered for political reasons, let us recall the excommunication of Hryshka Otrepyev, Stenka Razin, Ivashki Mazepa. I deliberately use their names as they sound in anathema.

The Council of Bishops of 1943 relied on the rules of St. Gregory of Neocessaria, which are part of the canonical heritage of the Christian Church. In 8, of these rules, those who under the pretext of war rape and kill civilians are mentioned. The reason for these canonical restrictions was the behavior of some inhabitants of Neokessarii, who suffered during the invasion ready in Asia Minor. The parallels with the Great Patriotic War are quite appropriate here even in the sense that the state power was then pagan and the Christians were subjected to consistent persecution. According to the rule, Christians who went over to the side of the barbarians were subject to spiritual responsibility. Literally in this church-canonical document it says so: “As many as were attached to the barbarians, and with them, during their captivity, they participated in the attack, having forgotten, supposedly there were Pontians and Christians, and hardened to the point that they killed their own tribal or tree, or by strangling, they also pointed out ways or houses to the leading barbarians: even those who listened to must be barred from entering the ranks of the hearers, until the holy fathers, or even their Holy Spirit, were pleased with them. ” This rule is directly directed against betrayal in wartime.

As for the emigrants, who found it possible for themselves to participate in the war on Hitler’s side, they could subjectively believe that they were continuing the Civil War, after all, the White Civil War was waged in some alliance with the Entente countries. Here, however, the composition of the union has changed. In the circumstances of the Second World War, the relations of the Russian émigrés with Hitler were a little like those of the allies. This, of course, does not make it possible to justify them, but suggests why they could consider their conscience clear and their actions right. To General Vlasov, all this does not apply. In his case, going over to the side of Hitler was purely an act of betrayal and betrayal. He swore allegiance to his country, but being in captivity, he went to cooperate with the enemy.

Treason to the motherland, betrayal of the oath - a fundamentally different phenomenon than the transition to the side of the enemy for ideological reasons. In all Christian states, treason has always been considered a grave crime. In this case we are talking about an indisputable crime, in any case, from the point of view of traditional legal conscience, in which nothing has changed in this sense under the influence of Christian ethics.

With Archpriest Vladislav Zipin
talked Olga Kiryanova
Author:
Originator:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/jurnal/62306.htm
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  1. Hleb
    Hleb 22 June 2013 06: 45 New
    +9
    "Consistent pacifism has never been inherent in the Christian Church"
    in fact, only this phrase in the article attracted attention
    1. bask
      bask 22 June 2013 06: 55 New
      +7
      Treason to the Motherland, betrayal of the oath - a fundamentally different phenomenon than the transition to the side of the enemy for ideological reasons. In all Christian states, treason has always been regarded as a grave crime. In this case, it’s a crime

      This is the main thing in the article. That the Second World War was fought against the brown plague by the entire population of the USSR, Russia. And the Russian Orthodox Church was one of the spiritual inspirers of this GREAT VICTORY !!!
      And how many thousands, veterans of the war after the Second World War, became clergy ((even who belonged to the party))) thousands.
      And all this, under the wise guidance of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin !!!
      1. FOX.
        FOX. 22 June 2013 09: 11 New
        +8
        Obviously, patriotism, as a phenomenon, existed and exists outside of Christianity, outside the Church.

        Patriotism is a Christian virtue because it is characteristic of a Christian, although it is not brought into the world by Christianity.

        Hi Andrew! In my opinion, these are two statements contradicting each other. And if I agree with the first one hundred percent, the second looks at least controversial. The aforementioned clergyman refuses all non-Christians to love their homeland ?! What is it like???
        You are right in saying that the Russian Orthodox Church was one of the inspirers of our Victory, but by no means the most important and played a very small role in these processes.
        And in general, it seems to me that the positive role of Christianity in the development of the Russian State is greatly exaggerated and the Russian people begin to believe that it actually did not have such a scope as church historians and others like them are now trying to imagine. Russian (and Soviet including) patriotism is based not on Faith in God (albeit the Great and Almighty), but on love for one’s home, land and a heightened sense of justice, and the church is only trying to pick it up and expose it only as Christian virtues.
        I will end with the words of one worthy person:
        The trouble is that we are inclined to consider the number of those who believe in it as the best proof of the truth. (Michel Montaigne)
        1. bask
          bask 22 June 2013 09: 53 New
          +5
          Quote: FOX.
          Hi Andrew! In my opinion, these are two statements contradicting each other.

          Off-topic ::: arrogant BABY FOX, you are on the site. Now I’ll pump it up ...
          Now seriously.
          Christianity and Orthodoxy united, all Russian -Soviet people. And gave the war a national character !!!
          My family of dispossessed, but Believers. Communists hated fiercely ... Grandmother ((Ukrainian national ...))) did not enter the collective farm until the end of her life ...
          But a cousin at the age of 17 fell ill as a volunteer in the Marines, and died in Stalingrad ((surname Knizhnikov A.I on Mamaev Kurgan also has his surname and initials.))) !!! Eternal memory to him. For whom did he fight ??? FOR ITS HOMELAND, in spite of my personal insult to the communists and the Soviet regime. And why, because I was a believer !!! And also because he was a Russian nationalist !!!
          1. FOX.
            FOX. 22 June 2013 10: 20 New
            10
            Quote: bask
            . For whom did he fight ??? FOR HIS MOTHERLAND, in spite of personal resentment against the communists and the Soviet government. And why, because he was a believer !!!

            With all due respect, Andrei, to you personally, but I do not agree with you. I will not talk about my grandfathers, although there is something to be proud of, but I will say about myself. I did not serve my country thanks to Faith in higher powers, but because I considered and still consider the protection of my Motherland from all kinds of enemies to be of paramount importance. You know my attitude to Christianity, but this does not mean that I am not Russian, and moreover does not mean that I do not root for a howling country. You and I have argued on this topic more than once (in spite of personal good relations), and my position has not changed since then. Faith in Christ, Mohammed, Moses, etc. - a personal affair of each person, but do not wishful thinking and try to artificially unite Faith in God and patriotism.
            Once again, when the time comes (and it will come) for us and for those like us, it will not matter what kind of faith a person professes covering his back and we will certainly fight not for Christ or Mohammed, but for our Motherland. drinks
            1. bask
              bask 22 June 2013 10: 54 New
              +4
              Quote: FOX.
              Once again, when the time comes (and it will come) for us and for those like us, it will not matter what kind of faith a person professes covering his back and we will certainly fight not for Christ or Mohammed, but for our Motherland.

              Felix FRIEND agrees to all 100 good.
              If there is a war, she will reconcile everyone !!! And she will certainly be, the Wahhabis rushing around the world and Russia. (((Just to have enough health))). But the Holy Cross will be on me.
              1. FOX.
                FOX. 22 June 2013 11: 36 New
                +5
                Quote: bask
                Holy Cross will be upon me

                Andrey, this is your right and your personal affair, which should not concern anyone, but our common concern is our Motherland, it is in full view of everyone and perishing (if necessary) we will also be in front of everyone and not for Faith, but for FATHERLAND !!!
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 22 June 2013 11: 40 New
                  +1
                  for some it will be a battle for faith and for the Fatherland ...

                  they just do not share these concepts
                  1. FOX.
                    FOX. 22 June 2013 11: 54 New
                    +9
                    Quote: fisherman
                    for some it will be a battle for faith and for the Fatherland ...

                    And for what faith will the Russian Catholic fight with the Western Catholic? Or for what faith will the Tatar (Muslim) fight with his fellow mercenary?
                    No need to deceive ourselves - if necessary, we will fight only for our homeland, but it is possible, each with his Faith in his soul!
                    1. bask
                      bask 22 June 2013 12: 16 New
                      +4
                      Quote: FOX.
                      And for what faith will the Russian Catholic fight with the Western Catholic?

                      Yes, Russians from time immemorial fought with Catholics ((((Alexander Nevsky))).
                      And Orthodox Serbia was bombed, because it was Orthodox. It would have been Catholic or Protestant, I’m sure there would have been no bombing.
                      Quote: FOX.

                      Or for what faith will the Tatar (Muslim) fight with his fellow mercenary?

                      I asked friends of Kazakhs. They replied that they were fighting with the Shaitanists, for their homeland, for their home, their friends (((of different nationalities)).
                      So, Faith and patriotism, the Motherland for many, is a single concept.
                      Everything is decided by each individual person.
                      Quote: S_mirnov
                      CJSC ROC !!! Like

                      But what about those Fathers who served in the city of Grozny in 92,95, at the height of the Russian genocide in Chechnya. They were for the number 1 fighters.
                      February 27, 2006.
                      1. FOX.
                        FOX. 22 June 2013 12: 26 New
                        +6
                        Quote: bask
                        Yes, Russians from time immemorial fought with Catholics

                        Andrew! I have a good friend, Russian by nationality, Catholic in religion. Chelovek sincerely loves his land, a true patriot. So what will he fight for if necessary with a European Catholic? For what faith? No, my friend, Faith is no side here, only love and devotion to our land is a decisive and determining factor.
                      2. bask
                        bask 22 June 2013 13: 10 New
                        +2
                        Quote: FOX.
                        European Catholic?

                        Felix, I wrote that everyone decides which side he should be on.
                        I say, as Catholics, as a political organization, or a huge financial corporation. Little has to do with Vera. The hierarchs of which are caught in pedophilia. And in the Protestant church, sadism is generally legalized.
                        The "Russian imperial movement" held a rally on May 17 against gays, lesbians and pedophiles. The reason was that on this day a gay parade will take place in St. Petersburg, as well as the fact that in relation to the accused of pedophilia, the former employee of the Russian Museum Sergei Tsvetkov and the manager of one of the banks, Sergei Smirnov, were given soft sentences - 8 months in a colony-settlement and termination criminal case "for the reconciliation of the parties." [media = http: //www.neva24.ru/a/2011/05/13/Nacionalisti_Peterburga_v/
                        ]
                  2. fisherman
                    fisherman 22 June 2013 12: 21 New
                    -2
                    I do not deceive myself, and I do not urge you to deceive yourself, you just judge by yourself, but I do not see anything reprehensible in this :)
                  3. fisherman
                    fisherman 22 June 2013 20: 39 New
                    -3
                    And for what faith will the Russian Catholic fight with the Western Catholic?


                    You ask extremely children's questions, so it’s so difficult to answer :))

                    He will fight for his faith and for his Fatherland, even if faith and Fatherland are the same (re-read the history textbook), moreover, even siblings will be killed (no need to look at the history of Abel and Cain, just re-read the history of civil wars)
      2. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 22 June 2013 12: 24 New
        -3
        No, there is no contradiction. On the contrary, the second statement that patriotism is more than Christianity, and simply peculiar to a real person, no matter what he believes. And he is recognized, including Christian virtue, as we say marital fidelity. Which is not unique to Christianity.
        Your skepticism about the role of Christianity is understandable ... however, here it is worth thinking more. The church at the moment, as well as until 17, is the only organization engaged in the spiritual enlightenment of people, no one else does this. When the millennial Russia, Russia was canceled with you, they declared that it was over, that’s all, this country is gone, and they frantically trample everything that the Russian could reach, other structures working with the human spirit appeared.
        Now it became clear that calling Russia a dog's nickname and replacing the Russians with a certain cadaver named "Soviet people" (ugh!) Is not a good idea, let's put it this way. These structures have shown their complete inconsistency, they have not been able to substantiate the existence of the unnatural formation "Soviet Union" even for 70 years, which is simply ridiculous in the light of Russia's existence. Do not forget that all these Soviet ideas were completely and completely rejected by almost the entire layer of our managers, that is, their spiritual value is close to zero.
        The church, too, is very guilty of allowing the tragedy of the 17 year. But she survived and still works, having great support in the hearts of men. Can you suggest something comparable? Let's return the Zampolitians, yeah ... We need to think. In comments of this kind it is always necessary to clarify - I am an atheist in modern terms.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. FOX.
          FOX. 22 June 2013 13: 42 New
          +4
          Quote: Mikhail3
          In comments of this kind it is always necessary to clarify - I am an atheist in modern terms.

          Thanks for the reminder, but a long-term visitor of this site knows that I am not an atheist, either "in modern terms" or in traditional terms. I adhere (like my whole family) to traditional Slavic beliefs.
          Quote: Mikhail3
          he (patriotism) is recognized, including Christian virtue

          But what about Muslim patriots? And if you turn the question a little, then how to be with thieves and rapists Christians, including from among the clergy? Do not privatize that which does not belong to Vera and will not raise such questions.
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Replacing the Russians with a certain cadaver named "Soviet people" (ugh!) is not a good idea, let's say.

          Do you like "dear Russians more?"
          Quote: Mikhail3
          These structures showed their complete inconsistency, they failed to substantiate the existence of the unnatural formation "Soviet Union" even for 70 years

          Nevertheless, it was this "cadaver" and precisely this "unnatural formation" that were able to carry out the technical rearmament of the country and defeat the church-going National Socialists, who had "God with us" stamped on their belt buckles.
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Need to think.

          What you would like to wish.
          By the way, take one free piece of advice in this regard - do not beat your forehead hard against the floor, this makes mental processes difficult, and sometimes makes them completely impossible. hi
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 22 June 2013 14: 42 New
            -2
            "I adhere (like my whole family) to traditional Slavic beliefs"
            Alas, our gods are dead. All living things die, the gods are no exception. Because I am an atheist ...
            "But what about the Muslim patriots?"
            Respect. And thieves and rapists - to punish. What does "privatized" mean? Recognized as valuable, what's wrong?
            "Do you like" dear Russians more? "
            Already I get angry. Each such appeal undermines the foundation of our Power. Stupidity is on the verge of betrayal ...
            "Nevertheless, it is this" cadaver "
            Stalin worked with what he had. He worked brilliantly .... he respected the Russian people very much, he was reverent (just like that) before our Tradition. But he could not destroy the Leninist fiend - then everything would have disintegrated. But the Great One left us, and so what? Were the spiritual bonds strong? Shameful and painful ....
            "By the way, take one free tip in this regard - don't bang your forehead hard on the floor."
            What's this? Can you advise you not to be zealous with your wife in a furrow? Or wish in the underground with bajnikom collide?
            Old gods cannot be returned. In order to go into the future, you need to see the road, otherwise we will fall. And for this you need to think, think, think ...
      3. Vadivak
        Vadivak 22 June 2013 22: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: FOX.
        And in general, it seems to me

        Quote: FOX.
        I adhere (like my whole family) to traditional Slavic beliefs.


        Well, discuss them in the relevant Topics. A little where about Orthodoxy here they are. Pray to the sun no one is against or a nuclear reactor, the topic is not yours


        What is minus.? You pray to the investigation, believe in what the Supreme created in which we believe, and you believe in the result of his work, if you didn’t know that Land Cruiser is a human product and you would worship him
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. FOX.
        FOX. 22 June 2013 11: 48 New
        +2
        Hello, Alexander! Long time no see! And, judging by your epaulets, the progress in the opinions of the members of the forum surrounding you has advanced far and the ideas that you consistently uphold throughout the entire time you are on the site have finally become clear to the vast majority of visitors to the resource, which I sincerely congratulate you on !!!
        Quote: S_mirnov
        It seems that times for the church became much easier, but scum climbed into the church without measure.

        This, in my opinion, is correctly noticed, but the sources of the current situation, again in my opinion, lie much further - starting with the very methods of baptizing Russia.
        Well, love (and in fact the basic tenet of Christianity "God is Love") cannot be implanted by sword and fire, bringing death and devastation around.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. fisherman
          fisherman 22 June 2013 12: 28 New
          -2
          and people on top sometimes wear a different uniform, not a uniform with a cross and a censer, but a uniform with shoulder straps, and these people do different things, and such that it is better sometimes to remain silent, however, there will always be commentators who "will derive the global from the local"

          "who thinks clearly, he clearly expounds" (Boileau)
        3. radio operator
          radio operator 26 June 2013 14: 36 New
          +1
          Quote: FOX.
          This, in my opinion, is correctly noticed, but the sources of the current situation, again in my opinion, lie much further - starting with the very methods of baptizing Russia.

          And what is wrong with the baptism of Russia?
    3. baltika-18
      baltika-18 22 June 2013 16: 27 New
      +7
      Quote: bask
      The church was one of the spiritual inspirers of this GREAT VICTORY !!!

      Andrei, you write in the spirit of fashionable historical research, according to which the Church, convicts and penal battles won the Great Patriotic War, contrary to the will of the country's leadership and the Communist Party.
      Quote: bask
      And how many thousands, veterans of the war after the Second World War, became clergy ((even who belonged to the party))) thousands.
      And all this, under the wise guidance of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin !!!

      Someone may have become, but by no means thousands. And in general, the first meeting of Stalin and the locum tenens of the Patriarch Metropolitan Sergius took place only in 1943 in February, when the Metropolitan asked to accept the money collected by the church for the construction of tanks as a gift, Stalin accepted it, the conversation lasted 1 hour .55 min. On September 12, 1943, Sergius was elected patriarch. By the way, the church gathered 8 million rubles, enough for 40 T-34-85 tanks, which were transferred to the Red Army on March 7, 1944 in the presence of Metropolitan Kolomensky and Krutitsky Nikolay.
      We will be honest in the most difficult time for the country in 1941-42, the church did not show much activity.
      1. try
        try 22 June 2013 22: 50 New
        -5
        Quote: baltika-18
        [
        We will be honest in the most difficult time for the country in 1941-42, the church did not show much activity.


        I think this is the wrong conclusion. just without a pointer from above in 41-42, it is unlikely that anyone would even have hinted that the clergy listed something there, bought or displayed. and if he had hinted, he would have gone to the penal battalion. and then it’s not a matter of PR.
    4. baltika-18
      baltika-18 22 June 2013 16: 49 New
      +4
      Quote: bask
      And how many thousands, veterans of the war after the Second World War, became clergy ((even who belonged to the party))) thousands.
      And all this, under the wise guidance of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin !!!

      I will add perhaps.
      1948 - the number of parishes in the country is 14329.
      1952, the number of parishes is 13786.
      1957, the number of parishes is 13477.
      1958-1965, the number of parishes was reduced to 7551.
      As we see, under the really wise leadership of Stalin, the number of priests has decreased significantly, and not as you say "thousands of war veterans became priests."
      1. bask
        bask 22 June 2013 18: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: baltika-18
        1957, the number of parishes is 13477.
        1958-1965, the number of parishes was reduced to 7551.

        baltika
        At that time, Khrushchev was already taxing. And cutting this at .... not only parishes.
        But also aviation, artillery ((almost ruined)) and so on ..
    5. The comment was deleted.
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 22 June 2013 20: 43 New
        -3
        of course...

        and there were, and were in our uniform (military), and were in other clothes

        ordinary traitors

        but the trouble, as I understand it, the main task of our opponents was to prove that the Church is not part of the people :)
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 22 June 2013 20: 57 New
          +3
          Quote: fisherman
          but the trouble, as I understand it, the main task of our opponents was to prove that the Church is not part of the people :)

          You put emphasis correctly, the church for the people, not the people for the church!
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 22 June 2013 21: 21 New
            -2
            exactly

            because the voice of God can be heard only in the voice of the People

            and the white clergy and the black clergy (who have NOT been condemned here yet, but will definitely be, believe me) are servants of God (People)
            1. does it
              does it 22 June 2013 22: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: fisherman
              because the voice of God can be heard only in the voice of the People

              Bread and circuses!
              1. fisherman
                fisherman 22 June 2013 22: 29 New
                -2
                many of them had the opportunity to ask for it only once a year, sometimes, once in a lifetime

                I am sure that you, as a more civilized person, therefore, in their place, you, of course, will require beer and football :)
  • the polar
    the polar 22 June 2013 07: 09 New
    -1
    "Treason to the Motherland, betrayal of the oath is a fundamentally different phenomenon than going over to the side of the enemy for ideological reasons. In all Christian states, treason has always been considered as the gravest crime."
    -------------------------------------------------- ---
    Hypocritical, lying priestly wisdom.
    Going over to the adversary’s side for ideological reasons is no longer a betrayal of the Motherland, a betrayal of the oath, but merely a solution to their pressing problems - today, fed by one ideology, and tomorrow found a more profitable ideology, such as Gorbachev and members of his Politburo.
    So at one time the priests renounced Nicholas "the anointed of God" because the new ideologues promised them great preferences, and now they have made him a "new martyr" because it has become profitable for the "new ideology".
    1. GreatRussia
      GreatRussia 22 June 2013 07: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: Polar

      Hypocritical, lying priestly wisdom.
      Going over to the adversary’s side for ideological reasons is no longer a betrayal of the Motherland, a betrayal of the oath, but merely a solution to their pressing problems - today, fed by one ideology, and tomorrow found a more profitable ideology, such as Gorbachev and members of his Politburo.

      This is your example of boorish and deceitful, at the level of a banal, cautious Russophobia.




      Atheist, Nobel laureate, academician J. Alferov:

      J.I. Alferova: “I have a very simple and kind attitude towards the Russian Orthodox Church,” because “The Orthodox Church defends the unity of the Slavs Over the past two decades, the Slavic world has suffered enormous losses: Yugoslavia was defeated, the great triumvirate of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus ceased to exist. Organically, I am an internationalist ... but the Slavs suffered huge losses. I remember how during the war, especially after 1943, our soldiers went on the attack not so much shouting "for Stalin", but with the words "Go, Slavs!"





      "The army and the Orthodox faith are two pillars that, after the elimination of the conquests of the Soviet regime, will first of all be cut down by the haters of the Russian people and Russia, whose main task is to destroy our spirituality and traditions."



      ".... today we are witnessing a coordinated campaign of attacks on the Russian Orthodox Church by representatives of aggressive liberal forces. In addition, various kinds of Russophobic slop are increasingly poured from TV screens on citizens."



      "The liberal schizo will sooner or later break his head, because only people who have completely forgotten about their personal safety can constantly hit the most vulnerable place - our national identity - against the background of the privatization robbery that is taking place in the country, and flagrant social injustice.

      Apparently, once starting this anti-national sabbath, they have neither the mind nor the conscience to stop, and then, faced with the harsh reactions of society, these people will point fingers and blame someone for extremism. In fact, this aggressive liberalism - this cave-like Russophobia, blasphemy against our spiritual values ​​is the most sophisticated, the most vile extremism "


      "The present and future of Christianity, which nurtured and nurtured the European, and in many respects the entire world civilization, for millennia, turned out to be superfluous for the new masters of the world."


      "there is a powerful and cynical psychic attack on Orthodoxy"



      "Ritual murders of Orthodox priests, demonstrative desecration of our churches, insolent mockery in the media, especially on television, of the highest hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church, cheeky laughing at things that are holy for believers by those who think they are the masters of life - this is what is getting stronger and stronger. more striking in Russian reality "


      G.A. Zyuganov
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Svobodny
          Svobodny 22 June 2013 09: 36 New
          -1
          Quote: Polar
          like pridurok

          but what insult didn’t pass in the Cyrillic alphabet ?!
        2. GreatRussia
          GreatRussia 22 June 2013 21: 10 New
          -3
          Quote: Polar
          One wants to ask the defective mind,

          Well, go up to the mirror and ask. Who does not give?
      2. Svobodny
        Svobodny 22 June 2013 09: 38 New
        -4
        Quote: GreatRussia
        G.A. Zyuganov

        Whose cow would mumble ...
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. fisherman
          fisherman 22 June 2013 20: 47 New
          -1
          The church is part of the people ...

          "but always ask the people for the truth, not a priest or a dancing parishioner" (approximate quotation)
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. Hleb
      Hleb 22 June 2013 07: 35 New
      +8
      I agree with you and do not agree with the quoted
      "Treason to the Motherland, betrayal of the oath is a fundamentally different phenomenon than going over to the side of the enemy for ideological reasons
      he’ll be a traitor. I don’t care what drives him. Hunger or ideological liberal thoughts. I don’t see approval for the actions of the current liberals here. The ideological betrayal above is the main idea of ​​the article and some other phenomenon .
    3. cartridge
      cartridge 22 June 2013 08: 18 New
      -1
      The penultimate paragraph is written in muddy and confused language. I understand that with the words "but allows us to guess why they could consider their conscience clear, and their actions were right," the cleric justifies the traitor emigrants who collaborated with Hitler.
      The phrase immediately comes to mind: "Religion is opium for the people!"
      I have no trust in mullahs, or priests, nor priests, nor rabbis! And after such complex linguistic constructions that allow double interpretation, this trust becomes even less.
      1. the polar
        the polar 22 June 2013 08: 52 New
        +1
        Under Soviet rule, it never entered anyone's head to divide people into "Orthodox", "Jews", "Muslims."

        But today, the mullahs roar from the minarets that Allah Akbar, the rabbis inspire in the synagogues that only Jews are the only God-chosen people, and all the other gentile subhuman, Christian clergymen preach that only they have the ultimate truth, and all other religions send their clients in hell.
        Who benefits from destroying the single Soviet community of moral and moral values ​​and introducing religious unrest and confrontation?
        1. bask
          bask 22 June 2013 10: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Polar
          But today, the mullahs roar from the minarets that Allah Akbar, the rabbis inspire in the synagogues that only Jews are the only ones

          You separate, as Mr. PU says, the haunou from ,, cutlets ,, ..
          the Jews profess and preach Zionism ::: uchenie about ,, God's chosen people, ..
          And Orthodox Christianity is love of the Motherland and neighbor ((to all the people of the earth)) in spite of racial and social differences ... Christ paid the main attention not to the outer side of the commandments, but to their inner content and their moral nature (see Matthew 15: 1-9). According to the expression of St. Gregory the Theologian, He ,, urged to rebel from the letter and follow the spirit ,, (Word, 37). This is especially evident from Christ's answer to the question of the main commandment of the Law and from His instruction.
          This is not one teaching, but two completely different ones. I will recall the words of CHRIST FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE !!! Jesus Christ repeatedly spoke with the Sadducees and Pharisees, and recommended that His disciples beware of their leaven. “Jesus said to them: Look, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees” (Matthew 16: 6). “Then they understood that He told them to be careful not of the leaven of bread, but of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees” (Matthew 16:12). The Sadducees, like the Pharisees, were also ardent opponents of Jesus Christ, because He exposed their false essence and condemned for sins. In the time of Jesus Christ, the Pharisees and Sadducees were the ruling religious and political parties, and their members were part of the Sanhedrin.
          The insincerity of the Pharisees and Sadducees was also seen by John the Baptist, and publicly exposed them in duplicity, calling them the offspring of vipers.
      2. FOX.
        FOX. 22 June 2013 09: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: cartridge
        The penultimate paragraph is written in a muddy and confusing language.

        Thus, the entire Holy Scripture is written in a "muddy and hazy language," which excludes the possibility of only one interpretation and gives the clergy a wide margin for maneuver. This verbiage is the basis for the assertion that the aforementioned book contains prophecies for all occasions. No, colleagues, there is only an opportunity to adjust each event to one or another statement of various "Revelations ...".
        1. bask
          bask 22 June 2013 10: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: FOX.

          Thus, the entire Holy Scripture is written in a "muddy and hazy language," which excludes the possibility of only one interpretation.

          Written and transcribed, over thousands of years, repeatedly.
          Written by ordinary people, that language. Then there was no literature, in its modern sense.
          But REVELATIONS are recorded in the HOLY SCRIPTURES, as it came from GOD. People didn’t invent anything. And if it were all written from the evil one, everything would have been forgotten long ago.
          Prayer helps me personally to live. Without Faith in God, I don’t see the meaning of life ....
          I need this, you don’t. I do not urge atheists to become believers. This is everyone’s business.
          BUT YOU DO NOT CHOOSE FAITH, FAITH CHOOSES YOU !!! ((my purely subjective opinion)))
          1. FOX.
            FOX. 22 June 2013 10: 38 New
            +6
            Quote: bask
            REVELATIONS are recorded in the HOLY SCRIPTURES, as it came from GOD. People did not invent anything. And if it were all written from the evil one, everything would have been forgotten long ago.

            "Came from GOD"? Who wrote it down? People! Maybe I will now say a thought that is unpleasant for you and all believers, but the same people (possibly the same) wrote the Torah, the same people wrote the Kabbalah and the same people wrote down the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," and they also survived the centuries. According to your logic, they are also God's creation, but in fact they are aimed at corrupting, humiliating and, ultimately, enslaving a person. Is this not from the evil one ???
            So the existence of these records over the centuries is not an argument in favor of their divine origin. In modern language, this is only a successful PR company and a game on human fears and weaknesses. hi
            1. bask
              bask 22 June 2013 11: 06 New
              +1
              Quote: FOX.
              In modern language, this is only a successful PR company and a game on human fears and weaknesses

              I would agree with you Felix. If I had not experienced the miraculous power of the Orthodox Prayer.
              Once again, I personally need it. Expressed in modern language. I AM CONNECTED TO THIS !! Without Faith, I can’t live. Although all my friends are not believers.
              At first it shocked them ((including the wife)). Then they got used to it. How Orthodoxy differs from sectarians. In that, we don’t impose howling FAITH, forcibly !!! Whoever wants it, who needs it, he believes ...
              1. FOX.
                FOX. 22 June 2013 11: 29 New
                +3
                Quote: bask
                I personally need it

                I remember your story, Andrey, and I understand you.
                Quote: bask
                , we do not impose a howling FAITH, forcibly !!! He who wants, who needs it, he believes ...

                The beginning of the baptism of Rus was not so peaceful, and even now the ROC is pursuing a policy (in the language of the State Department) of "magic power", persistently introducing its servants into all conceivable and inconceivable social institutions, influencing the freedom of choice of our citizens, primarily children, and this, in my opinion, is unacceptable.
                So there is a problem with "hating".
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 22 June 2013 11: 42 New
                  -10
                  The beginning of the baptism of Russia was not so peaceful,


                  "... not surprising - that Russia was baptized with blood ... after all, it was a decision of the mind ... and if the head on its shoulders does not have a counterweight in the form of at least something unambiguously indelible, spotless, heart-felt, then the restless mind will engage in self-destruction. .. while he sees evil - it is impossible to stop his creative ardor ... in principle he cannot but improve at least something ... to love or simply peacefully accept something different from himself as a necessary given - this is a Counterbalance :) yes. .. it was hard to expect from the pagans in power - that they would baptize the people not by pagan methods ... and the heart needs time ... "
                  1. FOX.
                    FOX. 22 June 2013 12: 03 New
                    +3
                    Quote: fisherman
                    ... it was difficult to expect from the pagans in power - that they would baptize the people with non-pagan methods ... and the heart needs time ... "

                    And so, with Christian love for the neighbor, whole villages were cut out ??! Well, damn it, you give !!! What kind of love is this that brought slavery to the ancient Slavic land, which the pagans did not have, brought blood and tears of hundreds of thousands of good people ???
                    THINK ABOUT THIS ON LEISURE !!!
                    1. fisherman
                      fisherman 22 June 2013 12: 24 New
                      -6
                      type in a search engine: "Alternative Reason or Absolute Genius"

                      much will become clear
                  2. Setrac
                    Setrac 22 June 2013 15: 43 New
                    +1
                    Quote: fisherman
                    "... not surprising - that Russia was baptized with blood ... after all it was a decision of reason ... and

                    You justify the criminals, Hitler also laid a logical foundation for an ideology calling for the destruction of the Slavs. When the Russian Orthodox Church was deprived of state support, then they were blown away by the church, although there remained a layer of deceivers who still believe in the Russian Orthodox Church and not in God.
                    1. fisherman
                      fisherman 22 June 2013 21: 02 New
                      -3
                      actually I quoted :))

                      oh well, more important than another, the Church has a social significance (not for me, for the people)

                      the purpose is very simple: so that the number of people who are honest, responsible, obligatory, executive becomes more, and the number of deceitful, creative, resourceful, cunning, irresponsible people becomes less, then the society as a whole will become cleaner, softer, kinder, ... less corrupt, etc. .d. ("spiritual bonds of the state")

                      and criminals should be punished, regardless of the form on it: judicial mantle, cassock, military, party .......

                      "who thinks clearly, he clearly expresses"
        2. baltika-18
          baltika-18 22 June 2013 12: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: FOX.
          Thus, all Holy Scripture is written in "a muddy and hazy language"

          It happens, Felix, if you mix the truth and falsehood in a proportion of 50 to 50. But that was originally.
          Quote: bask
          Written and rewritten, over thousands of years, repeatedly

          Naturally, the amount of lies only increased. If we take the modern synodal edition of the Bible and the Ostrog Bible of 1581 (the first complete, completed edition), we will see many discrepancies, albeit in trifles, but these trifles are very important, since they change the scene of the events described.
          1. FOX.
            FOX. 22 June 2013 12: 18 New
            +4
            Hi Nikolay! It's nice to talk to you again !!! drinks
            And about the ratio "50x50" I would not be so optimistic. In my opinion, there will be no more than 10% of the truth, but this is a separate and very large story, including the place of these events.
            Unfortunately, fogging, and often outright lies, have become the norm for modern clergy.
            1. baltika-18
              baltika-18 22 June 2013 12: 28 New
              +8
              Quote: FOX.
              Hi, Nikolay!

              Mutually, Felix.
              Quote: FOX.
              And about the ratio "50x50" I would not be so optimistic
              Well, I wrote that it was originally, in times close to events.
              Quote: FOX.
              In my opinion, the truth will be typed there by no more than 10%,

              Here our estimates coincide.
              1. consul
                consul 22 June 2013 21: 00 New
                -4
                Kindly provide examples of "muddy and foggy" language, as well as various kinds of relationships, because. You see something like that, perhaps only you and your like-minded person, it just sounds unfounded in the sense of "just to screw it up."
                On the topic, an article about the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church specifically to patriotism and betrayal in line with the Holy Scriptures and the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church and not a single abusive word in relation to pagans or other beliefs. Write your article about the contribution of your co-religionists in the formation of Russia, their works and appeals.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 22 June 2013 21: 36 New
                  +5
                  Quote: consul
                  On the topic is an article about the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church specifically to patriotism and betrayal in line with the Holy Scriptures and the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Church and not a single abusive word in relation to pagans or other beliefs.

                  This is because the church was separated from the state (URA - to the Communists) and now it (the church) obeys secular laws, and before that they not only scolded, but also killed pagans and Gentiles.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. fisherman
        fisherman 22 June 2013 20: 49 New
        -6
        opium is a pain reliever

        now smoking, drugs, alcohol, and a lot of all kinds of mania, something like shopping, etc. are more familiar.
    4. FOX.
      FOX. 22 June 2013 09: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Polar
      Hypocritical, lying priestly wisdom.

      BRAVO!!! "+" drinks
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 22 June 2013 11: 36 New
        -1
        the essence of Orthodoxy is to seek and strangle the devil primarily within itself ...

        and no vanity, or speculation, or speculation is required ...

        extremely easy to understand, extremely difficult to execute

        this is Maxim
        1. bask
          bask 22 June 2013 12: 38 New
          +2
          Quote: fisherman
          the essence of Orthodoxy is to seek and strangle the devil primarily within itself ...

          FISHER to the point fell !!! drinks
          I could not, before that, accurately express my thought.
          I have a daily, every second fight with (((the devil)).
          Quote: fisherman
          but difficult to execute

          And cool again good said, it’s extremely difficult, I know, for execution.
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 22 June 2013 13: 41 New
            -3
            I have been thinking about this topic since the Soviet era, that is, more than some forum users are old :)

            hope not offended

            this is Maxim, or the Limit to which it is impossible to reach any existing spiritual Doctrine

            die "for their friends"
            1. bask
              bask 22 June 2013 13: 57 New
              -4
              Quote: fisherman
              this is Maxim, or the Limit to which it is impossible to reach any existing spiritual Doctrine

              With today's Chernukha. And the main slogan of modern shit. Make money and go over the heads, over the corpses, then the career will turn out and you will be the boss.
              The task of Maxim is for me to remain a DECENT MAN.
              Quote: fisherman
              die "for their friends"

              For this, he’s always ready ... if he does.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. bask
            bask 22 June 2013 18: 38 New
            -3
            Quote: Setrac
            Only for some reason, Christians are looking for the devil in other countries and religions, and not in their souls.

            seltas, if you are a satanist answer for yourself.
            That recently, the Zionists and Satanists have intensified on our site, it’s not good ....
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 22 June 2013 22: 45 New
              +2
              Quote: bask
              seltas, if you are a satanist answer for yourself.

              What do I have to do with it? It was not I who baptized other peoples with "fire and sword", I did not own lands, serfs and trafficked people, in the end I did not come up with the church tithe, it was the church who did it, and to say that the church did something there for the Russian people is a deception, I did something, but "good" deeds pale in comparison to "bad" ones.
              1. bask
                bask 22 June 2013 23: 18 New
                -1
                Quote: fisherman
                for small: "KILL THE DRAGON"

                Quote: Setrac
                What do I have to do with it? It was not I who baptized other peoples with "fire and sword", I did not own the lands, serfs and trade

                First was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
                What peoples living in Russia were baptized by fire and sword ????
                It has been in power in Russia since the 18th century, it was nonsense. Only the Orthodox Faith saved Russia and the Russian people from complete Germanization and becoming slaves, gentlemen who do not speak Russian. And under what banners did Prince Minin and Pozharsky fight. Under the Orthodox banners with Prayer on their lips !!!
                Without them, you and I were simply gone now ...
          2. fisherman
            fisherman 22 June 2013 21: 13 New
            -2
            Only for some reason, Christians are looking for the devil in other countries and religions, and not in their souls.


            a striking conclusion, if it is true, then you should immediately give out all future Nobel prizes, starting with chemistry :)

            the thing is that only you were able (in contrast to the whole stupid world) to discover the main Evil of the planet, there was little left to do: "KILL THE DRAGON"

            and all of humanity freed from Christian moralizing will erect a monument to you the size of the Tower of Babel

            until you start the struggle between Good and Evil, I want to remind you that absolutely all people with intelligence are looking for the devil in others, such is the nature of man (and a man hardly recognizes his log)

            if necessary, I can easily prove it, and for this you do not need to have a Nobel Prize :)

            and even those with teenage intelligence like to "cut the loot" :)

            all around are normal normal people, it's even scary to live :)
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. GreatRussia
                GreatRussia 22 June 2013 22: 13 New
                -4
                Quote: Setrac
                Dear fisherman, you will breed demagogy in your seminary (spiritual), the facts are stubborn, history has shown the true face of the Christian religion - the Crusades, the destruction of states and peoples, the burning of fellow tribesmen - all this is the work of the Christian religion.

                It’s you who will be planting these things in your circles of militant atheists and lying deceitfully, hanging this noodle to your illiterate followers of religion, in one heap the western branches, in particular Catholicism with Eastern Orthodoxy, to which you have nothing to do.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 22 June 2013 22: 22 New
                  +4
                  Quote: GreatRussia
                  It is you who will be planting these things in your mugs of militant atheists and interfering with one another the Western branches, in particular Catholicism with Eastern Orthodoxy, in one heap.

                  There is some truth in your words, our Orthodox Christianity is much better than Western Catholicism or Protestants. But nevertheless, the list of affairs of the Orthodox Church is also impressive, from the baptism of Russia with fire and sword, after which "Gardarika" became a sparsely populated territory, until 1917, when the people were betrayed not only by the tsar and the elite, but also by the church, which called for help the interventionists, even the White Guards did not think of this.
                  1. GreatRussia
                    GreatRussia 22 June 2013 23: 08 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Setrac
                    from the baptism of Russia by fire and sword

                    These are the stories of Novgorod pagans.


                    ... until 1917, when the people were betrayed not only by the king and the elite, but also by the church, which called for helping the interventionists

                    Everything was exactly the opposite.
                    1. does it
                      does it 23 June 2013 01: 36 New
                      +1
                      Quote: GreatRussia
                      Everything was exactly the opposite.

                      No, he's right! In our Arkhangelsk moss, first the whites shot red and objectionable, and then the red whites and so on. When the British robbed Arkhangelsk and the Tsar’s counterintelligence shot suspects in ties with the Bolsheviks. The priests held religious processions for no reason. Rejoicing the interventionists.
                      1. GreatRussia
                        GreatRussia 23 June 2013 01: 42 New
                        -3
                        Quote: kvirit
                        When the British robbed Arkhangelsk and the Tsar’s counterintelligence shot suspects in ties with the Bolsheviks. The priests held religious processions for no reason. Rejoicing the interventionists.

                        In this case, do you call processions of the Cross rejoicing to the interventionists?
                        What a wild religious illiteracy!
              2. fisherman
                fisherman 22 June 2013 22: 33 New
                -4
                I quote:

                "... teachings ... canons ... new dogmas ... ideas ... and new theories ... there will be many more ... this is such a continuous process of cloning the idea of ​​Good ... and each time they will all lead to a "moral impasse" ... because every time cunning wins romanticism ... because every time the private wins the public ... because every time the idea of ​​an earthly paradise will be implemented according to the mind (without quotes) and create another paradise there will be - of course - the smartest ... there is nothing surprising here ... everything is reasonable - everything is familiar ... flying from one century to another ... one of the successful models of a perpetual motion machine ...

                ... another thing is surprising - how strong the power of the mind on earth is ... that is, how easily smart and not burdened by moral shackles people learned not only to fill their pockets with next privilege needs ... but also to perfectly defend their privileged role of Truth - how judge-interpreter of everything and everything - from the same smart and not burdened with people morality :)))

                the conflict of reasonable interests is inexhaustible ... intellectual duels (as a reason) stand behind all economic ... territorial ... interreligious wars - since the normal function of the life of the human mind is to distinguish between white and black ... oneself and another ... one's own and a stranger ... "

                and you are all a church, a religion,

                "who thinks clearly, he clearly expresses"
              3. bask
                bask 22 June 2013 22: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Setrac
                showed the true face of the Christian religion - the Crusades, the destruction of states and peoples, the burning of fellow tribesmen - all this is the work of the Christian religion.

                All that you have listed, the work of hands, of the Catholic orders and their wild monarchs.
                They burned and plundered these beasts and the Orthodox Constantinople. They had nothing to do with the Faith of Christ and they don’t have now .... For them the main thing was gold (((as an example of the Templars))) But they worshiped ((to the devil)).
                Now the successors of their evil deeds, SUSH and NATO .. ​​Sow death and destruction around the world ... supporting cannibals in Syria ..
                And who in Syria is the most loyal and staunch fighters in the Syrian army is Christians !!! They know with whom and for what they are fighting !!!
    5. The comment was deleted.
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 22 June 2013 21: 15 New
        -3
        When you meet a priest somehow, you will immediately look at his hands

        this will help you in your statistical research :)
        1. does it
          does it 22 June 2013 22: 39 New
          +3
          Quote: fisherman
          When you meet with a priest, you will immediately look at his HANDS. This will help you in your statistical research :)

          If you! addressed it to me, then yes it was, and besides hypocrisy I saw nothing, and what difference does it have in his hands! maybe he’s a taxi driver or a miner in the past, and so on. I’ll not add videos, because priests don’t tolerate facts, criticism and sobriety.
          1. fisherman
            fisherman 22 June 2013 22: 55 New
            -3
            I met and besides hypocrisy, I saw nothing


            I believe and understand you perfectly, and I also met such people

            and most of all I trust those who have big calloused hands (for monks, for example, and not for the white clergy, including the Patriarch, yes, that's right, but this is my private opinion, I remember that I have my voice, and what is the voice of God)

            beloved child of the Russian people will always be dressed more beautiful than the people themselves

            near Gogol father kills son for Orthodoxy

            titanic efforts are being made (and will be) to replace this "child" with others - foreign ones ("a holy place is never empty")
          2. bask
            bask 22 June 2013 22: 55 New
            -2
            Quote: kvirit
            maybe he’s in the past a taxi driver or a miner and so on. photo, I won’t add videos because priests do not tolerate facts, critics and

            Important, it means he is from the common people.
            I would say look him in the eye. EYES MIRROR OF THE SOUL !!!
            fifth, and that you all run into Orthodox Christians. Tell me something about the other religions of Russia, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Catholicism, pratestants and so on ... religions.
            Fear or fear. For example, Muslims !!!
            1. bask
              bask 22 June 2013 23: 29 New
              -3
              Quint, put on his pants and ran away ....
              Still afraid? Or afraid ???
              and about opium ((probably Afghan)) no one remembers ...
              1. bask
                bask 22 June 2013 23: 43 New
                -2
                All Blasphemers are so liquid, or who dare to eat ...
                Answer to my question.
                Why do they run into ORTHODOXY only ????
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 22 June 2013 23: 56 New
                  +3
                  Quote: bask
                  All Blasphemers are so liquid, or who dare to eat ...

                  Not blasphemers, but churches, you do not even separate the concept of God from the concept of "church", the church is not God and does not speak on behalf of God.
                  Quote: bask
                  Why do they run into ORTHODOXY only ????

                  Because I don’t give a damn about homosexual Catholics and pedophile Protestants, I live in Russia and I baptized a child in a neighboring village, I won’t say why, one priest hasn’t yet the whole church.
                  1. GreatRussia
                    GreatRussia 23 June 2013 00: 04 New
                    -5
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Not blasphemers, but churches, you do not even separate the concept of God from the concept of "church", the church is not God and does not speak on behalf of God.

                    To Christianity, your definition does not mean the least. Open NZ, read what the Church and its head are before broadcasting it.
                  2. bask
                    bask 23 June 2013 07: 44 New
                    -3
                    [quote = Setrac] Because I don’t give a damn about homosexual Catholics and pedophile Protestants, I live in Russia and a kid [/ quote]
                    I asked QUESTION u about Muslims and Jews.
                    And you Setrac et fifth, did not answer him ...
                    Because you are cowards and you know, at least you say a word against Muslims WE WILL TURN AS TUZIKS TO SMALL PARTS !!! (((for this I respect traditional Islam)) Many Muslim friends, the main slogan for them: ONE FOR ALL! !!!
                    And you are afraid to write about Jews because you know that you will get a BAN !!
                    So that you are cowards the dearest blasphemers and satanists ...
                    [/ Quote]
                    baptized in a neighboring village, I won’t say why, one priest isn’t the whole church yet. [/ quote] So you are also a Cossack setrac, not a mess!
                    And what about the Baptism of a child? I would give it to the Satanists, they would, according to their rite, celebrate Mass. Why do you have such duplicity ???
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 23 June 2013 15: 54 New
                      +1
                      Quote: bask
                      I asked QUESTION u about Muslims and Jews.

                      I can’t say anything bad about Muslims, because I don’t know anything bad about them, or do I have to slander them to prove my courage? Jews are decent bastards, but against the background of Protestants and Catholics look decent. If for pluses they gave rubles (either dollars or euros, or shekels as a last resort), I would be worried.
                      Quote: bask
                      So you are also a Cossack setrac, not a member of the CUSTOMS CASE !!!

                      Do you have any complaints about the Cossacks? What do I have to do with it? Setrak is an Armenian name, that was the name of my grandfather, a war veteran.
                      Quote: bask
                      And that child baptized? I would give to the Satanists

                      Do you hear me, do not touch my family.
                2. radio operator
                  radio operator 26 June 2013 16: 18 New
                  +1
                  Quote: bask
                  Why do they run into ORTHODOXY only ????

                  Probably because in Orthodoxy there is still that spiritual core that does not fall under the diabolical seduction of liberalism, as happened with Catholics and Protestants.

                  Islam traditionally has a strong morality, but it will also be broken, over time, under the pressure of tolerance and liberalism.
                  And Orthodoxy is holding on. I hope it will last a long time.
              2. does it
                does it 23 June 2013 07: 27 New
                0
                Quote: bask
                Quint, put it in his pants and ran away .... Is he still afraid? Or is he afraid ??? and about opium ((probably Afghan)) no one remembers ...

                I ANSWERED YOU IN 1; 03 SEE MY ANSWER BELOW Answer to my question.
                Why do they run into ORTHODOXY only ????
                In the world they rely everywhere and at all! Criticism should be in all spheres of human activity. The world must be multipolar, if it is unipolar it will rot.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. does it
                    does it 23 June 2013 10: 02 New
                    +3
                    Quote: bask
                    No dear friend. You all perfectly understood, do not understand, cheap links to the title of the article .. You just scared to write about Muslims and Jews ... Because you know one word against and you are an ideological TRUPE !!!!!

                    Oh, what are you talking about, I have acquaintances Muslims at work since Soviet times. Ordinary people. when a friend's nephew went to Mecca. When asked how it was there? she answered, "Everything is different, even the worldview." And what city? answered an ordinary city in the desert, one sand. And the city of Constantinople-Istanbul is an ordinary commercial city. And also that between our Muslims and theirs there is a big difference in culture and customs (different states). In the army, according to the Muslims themselves, the majority of Islamic youth the citizen is an ordinary punks and do not go to the mosque. remember Allah only in the army. The same is true among Christians and other confessions. My personal opinion is that a person himself is free to choose to go or not to go to a temple, a mosque, a synagogue. You asked, I answered, but I had nothing to do with the Jews.
                    1. bask
                      bask 23 June 2013 10: 46 New
                      -2
                      Quote: kvirit
                      and other faiths. My personal opinion is that the person himself is free to choose to go or not to go to the temple, mosque, synagogue. You asked, I answered, but I had no business with the Jews.

                      THIS is again avoiding the answer.
                      The question is simple but CLEAR, why the hitting is only for ORTHODOXY.
                      Muslims and Jews also believe in ONE GOD ...
                      Again some sort of bleating, instead of an answer ...
                      Okay, stop the senseless ,, dispute, you still won’t answer ... as they say, Chechen-weak hearted ... You would be in their company, I would look like you there ,, waved a saber ,, ... I have been more than once , defended his point of view.
                      Before blaspheming, first take courage and be a man, not ......
                      1. does it
                        does it 23 June 2013 11: 47 New
                        0
                        Quote: bask
                        Before blaspheming, first take courage and be a man, not .....

                        Did I blaspheme?
                  3. Setrac
                    Setrac 23 June 2013 15: 58 New
                    0
                    Quote: bask
                    you are all cheap ideological impatents !!!

                    Behave yourself properly!
            2. does it
              does it 23 June 2013 01: 03 New
              +2
              Quote: bask
              I would say look him in the eye. EYES MIRROR OF THE SOUL !!!

              Well, it depends on what kind of person I’ve met in my life that looks into your eyes through the eyes of an innocent child, and meanwhile his hands rummage through your pockets.and that you all run into Orthodox Christians.here you got a little excited, I reacted to the article and to individual comments by critically posting video clips with K.P. Petrov and A.G. Nevzorov and a photo of the newspaper "Za Rodinu" No. 73 on December 3.12.42, XNUMX on behalf of the Russian ave. Church. newspapers I made it clear that ordinary people work in the church, among whom, like everywhere else, their patriots and traitors. Petrov soberly comments on the Bible (I saw how they "study" the Bible, he must look for an answer to a question asked to a person, no, not on the shelves his intellect and in this very Bible and interpret as you are told) but at the expense of Alexander Glebych! not one religion tolerates criticism and admission of their criminal mistakes. Recently, Mr. V. Gundyaev (Patriarch of All Russia) called to fight for raising the prestige of the ROC on the Internet. Seeing that my comments were deleted, I realized that these are echoes of that call (ABOUT US, IT IS WELL OR NOTHING) Say something about other religions of Russia, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Catholicism

              e, pratestant and so on ... religions.
              and is the article really about them? I'm not writing articles.
              1. Yarosvet
                Yarosvet 23 June 2013 01: 20 New
                +3
                Quote: kvirit
                no religion tolerates criticism and recognition of its criminal errors.

                Bold plus.

                "Religion is a very common surrogate for faith" (O. Wilde)
                1. fisherman
                  fisherman 23 June 2013 07: 22 New
                  +2
                  why quote homosexual on this site, quote Nietzsche, if you do not remember, I will help :)
                2. bask
                  bask 23 June 2013 07: 56 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Yarosvet
                  "Religion is a very widespread surrogate for faith" (O. Wilde)

                  He is right, squeaking about his Anglican ,, church ,, and about her parishioners and their faith ... it is not known that ...
                  Quote: fisherman
                  why quote homosexual on this site, quote Nietzsche, if you do not remember, I will help :)

                  Yes, because they themselves ((((I received a warning yesterday for this)), but I repeat.
                  No ALL but many, from the LGBT league ...
                  1. Yarosvet
                    Yarosvet 23 June 2013 16: 07 New
                    -2
                    Quote: fisherman
                    why quote homosexual on this site, quote Nietzsche, if you do not remember, I will help :)
                    I would be grateful for your help smile

                    Quote: bask
                    He is right, squeaking about his Anglican ,, church ,, and about her parishioners and their faith ... it is not known that ...
                    You see, Basque: the Anglican church is a Christian church based on the same sources as the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of the Byzantine rite, now called Russian Orthodox in Russia.
                    The difference between them is insignificant and lies in the discrepancies in the interpretation of the "holy scripture". The reasons for differences in interpretation, in turn, are the political situation in a particular country.

                    And about the negativity contained in any religion, in my opinion, Mendeleev spoke best of all:
  • sashka
    sashka 22 June 2013 07: 18 New
    +5
    One of these days, one of the edra said when handing passports to graduates that Russian nationality is NO. Is this a state policy or what?
  • fenix57
    fenix57 22 June 2013 07: 25 New
    13
    Orthodox himself, but among the defenders of OUR HOMELAND, there were SOMETHING fighters of other faiths, at that time there was no such hostility of one denomination to another. WAS ONE ENEMY-FASCISM, DESTROYED IT! soldier “Bravery is a courage inspired by spirituality. The stubbornness with which the Bolsheviks defended themselves in their pillboxes in Sevastopol is akin to a certain animal instinct, and it would be a profound mistake to consider it the result of Bolshevik beliefs or upbringing. Russians have always been like that and most likely they will always remain so. ” (Joseph Goebbels).
    1. FOX.
      FOX. 22 June 2013 09: 34 New
      +7
      The Russians have always been like that, and most likely will always be like that. ”

      Although J. Goebels is a bastard, but this does not detract from his mental abilities, and here he is absolutely right, as you are right, fenix57! In this case, religion is secondary and does not determine a person’s relationship to their homeland!
      1. fisherman
        fisherman 22 June 2013 11: 38 New
        +2
        Of course, because the patriots of Russia appeared long before baptism ...

        this is discussed in the article
  • individual
    individual 22 June 2013 09: 26 New
    -4
    Pacifism is the expression of cowards and opportunists.
    Pacifism is a symbol of a degenerate Europe mired in the luxury of consumption and profit.
    They forgot their knights with fire and sword making history.
    Soviet soldiers went into battle under the Christian motto "For the Motherland!"
    Appeal "For the Motherland" responded with centuries of pride in HOLY RUSSIA FOR THE PEOPLES who walked and died for the glory of life.
    1. FOX.
      FOX. 22 June 2013 09: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: individ
      Soviet soldiers went into battle under the Christian motto "For the Motherland!"

      Interestingly, is the second part of this appeal "For Stalin" also Christian? You, my dear, do not mix concepts and the Christian church has ANYTHING to do with the appearance of this call. Another thing is that you really want to believe in it, but this is from the area of ​​a groundless talking shop. hi
      1. individual
        individual 22 June 2013 10: 49 New
        +2
        Christianity is a worship of the Truth, it is a worship of the Creator God, who created, among other things, the Motherland itself.
        1. FOX.
          FOX. 22 June 2013 11: 21 New
          0
          Quote: individ
          Christianity is a worship of Truth

          Then what is Islam? What about Buddhism? After all, each of the followers of these religions believes that it is his faith that is true.
          Quote: individ
          it is worship of the Creator God, who created, among other things, the Motherland itself

          The homeland was created not by "God the Creator", but by those very Slavs, Vyatichi, Drevlyans, etc., who did not know the Christian Faith and lived in harmony with this world, and they did not live badly.
          Maybe you worship that wrong ???
          1. individual
            individual 22 June 2013 13: 50 New
            +2
            My family is Orthodox Christians and that’s it.
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  • The comment was deleted.
    1. fisherman
      fisherman 22 June 2013 13: 42 New
      -3
      while atheists were tearing their teeth


      false conclusion
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 22 June 2013 14: 04 New
    0
    I want to remind you of the Great Warrior Reshoot the legendary warrior monk, monk of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery. He, along with Rodion Oslyabey, participated in the Battle of Kulikovo and fought in martial arts before the main battle of the Tatar hero Chelubey. In this battle, he died himself. In the Russian Orthodox Church saints. The history of the Russian Orthodox Church has many other examples. We see representatives of the Church both in the ranks of the paratroopers and on the objects of the Strategic Missile Forces. The church has a beneficial effect on the spiritual life of warriors.
    1. Tao
      Tao 22 June 2013 14: 25 New
      0
      Actually, about the Warrior of Relight, it’s another lie that has not been confirmed by anyone. However, the Church is not the first time to cling to other people's victories? :)
    2. Reserve buildbat
      Reserve buildbat 24 June 2013 13: 04 New
      +2
      And how do you explain that Peresvet, supposedly taking the schema, is not mentioned anywhere before the Battle of Kulikovo? The novice suddenly became a schema monk? This is nonsense smile
      In addition, Peresvet speaks before the battle, the words are by no means Christian, but clearly in the Slavic religious tradition. He was a pagan
      1. radio operator
        radio operator 26 June 2013 16: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: Stroibat stock
        He was a pagan

        It seems that you are a supporter of the USSR, but do not express the opinion of Soviet historians, but of the drafters of liberal quasi-reality.
      2. Slav
        Slav 21 July 2013 12: 15 New
        0
        Quote: Stroibat stock
        And how do you explain that Peresvet, supposedly taking the schema, is not mentioned anywhere before the Battle of Kulikovo? The novice suddenly became a schema monk? This is nonsense

        Nonsense - to quote the liberal passages of the Democrats.
        What you write about is not a single historian will confirm.
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  • georg737577
    georg737577 22 June 2013 15: 37 New
    +5
    Personally, I divide people into believers and atheists. Due to this differentiation, I don’t see the difference between Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Satanists and others ... As well as any significant contribution of the Russian Orthodox Church to the victory of the USSR in the Second World War. The church has always served the government, including the occupation.
    1. GreatRussia
      GreatRussia 23 June 2013 16: 00 New
      0
      Quote: georg737577
      The church has always served the government, including the occupation.

      Lies.
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 22 June 2013 16: 37 New
    0
    Our faith helped to defeat our enemies!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • dmitreach
    dmitreach 23 June 2013 14: 53 New
    0
    Oh! the cut-out comment had to be crushed! I understood! About the Russian Orthodox Church, either at a wedding / funeral service, or not kak. Although the comment given was nauseous to the nausea, it reflected my opinion about the Russian Orthodox Church and about the Russian Orthodox Church in politics.
  • radio operator
    radio operator 26 June 2013 16: 42 New
    +1
    Obviously, patriotism, as a phenomenon, existed and exists outside of Christianity, outside the Church. But it is fully compatible with Christianity, but the opposite is hardly

    Totally agree!
    Stalin was right that he turned to Orthodoxy, and not to paganism or to other religions and faiths.
    http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/735/wubu231.jpg
    1. Slav
      Slav 21 July 2013 12: 12 New
      0
      Quote: radio operator
      Totally agree!
      Stalin was right that he turned to Orthodoxy, and not to paganism or to other religions and faiths.