Soviet pilots against the Israeli Air Force. Win with a dry score?

Soviet military pilots who entered into air combat with Israeli fighter jets lost 5 vehicles without knocking down a single enemy aircraft.

For forty years now there have been legends about this fight. 100 Soviet aces. The 50 lethal interceptor MiG-21 is the best at the time modification of the MF. The Russian “legion of death”, urgently redeployed to the Middle East, had to radically change the balance of power in the air.

Youth and anger. The desire to fight to the last drop of blood - as bequeathed by the fathers who took Berlin. Homeland will provide you with the best technology and learn all the necessary skills of a fighter pilot. Squad of winners. Thunderstorm air ocean.

For this fight prepared. For the decisive battle, the best of the best were selected - the 135 th Fighter Wing of the USSR Air Force, which passed special training at training grounds in the southern regions of the USSR. While the Soviet "falcons" cut their turns over the Crimea and the Caspian Sea, trying to go to the tail of each other, the Israelis swallowed the blood of the "war of attrition" and studied, studied, studied, practicing their own methods of conducting air combat.

Only old men go to battle - the best Soviet pilots against Amos Amir, Asher Snir, Abraham Shalmon and Avi Gilad. Only these four Aces had more than 20 air victories in the account. The Israeli Air Force Command rightly believed that there was no second such link in the world equal in terms of the quality of training and capabilities of the “air killer” squadron commanded by Amos Amir.
Two teams of professionals. Two scorpions locked in one vessel. Only one should survive. Bolivar will not make two.

Ahead - uncertainty. With a shield or shield. Warriors-internationalists, our country has given you a great honor - the right to represent the interests of the Soviet Union in the region of the Middle East conflict. I have no right to order. Here gathered volunteers. Please do everything right there and go back alive.
Leaving the room, he added in a stern voice: "Keep in mind comrades: if you are shot down behind the line of the Suez Canal, we don’t know you, get out yourself ..." (from the memories of the pilots about meeting with USSR Defense Minister A. Grechko)

Secret mission in one of the most dangerous hot spots on the planet. On the wings and the keel - the insignia of the Egyptian Air Force. In the nose of the fuselage - a tactical number, derived fancy Arabic script. The personnel of the unit, all pilots and equipment - “Ana Habir Russia” (trans. “I am a Russian specialist”). MiGs were based at Kom-Aushim, Beni-Suef, Janaklis airbases, periodically used the forward airfield in Katamia.

The all-seeing intelligence Mossad has already reported on the arrival of the Russians. These are not simple instructors, these people came here to fight. On the other side of the Suez Canal, a brief confusion arose: A direct threat to the existence of the State of Israel? But what about respect for neutrality? How justified is shooting at planes with Russian crews? Will this be a spark of the Great War?
"No, we have to fight," Prime Minister Golda Meir took the initiative in her own hands, "if necessary, go into battle immediately."

By the general bout carefully prepared - from the first half of April, 1970, began the weekly meeting of the Russian with the Israelis. Alas, every time, opponents dispersed in different directions, and not risking to join the fight. Israeli pilots closely watched the behavior of their likely opponents, tracked all their maneuvers and plotting patterns during the sorties, studied the control style of the Soviet fighters.

I saw the "Mirage" - do not turn!

Our pilots are considering the enemy with no less interest. Here he is! Literally a couple dozen meters away, the fat-bellied carcass of the Phantom slides. The American-made double fighter is just a giant - 20 tons of solid speed and fire - against 8 tons of maximum take-off mass of the MiG! The McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom pendants are littered with a multitude of air-to-air cruise missiles, two engines, and a sophisticated on-board electronics complex. Extremely dangerous enemy.

F-4E Phantom II Israeli Air Force

And here - the arrow-shaped silhouette of the Mirage flickered. The graceful French fighter poses almost greater danger than the American “monster” - the Mirage’s wing load is less than that of the MiG — it’s risky for our fighters to engage in close combat with such a nimble enemy. The final touch to the portrait of Dassault Mirage III - two built-in aviation 30 mm DEFA guns.

Instead of the deadly and senseless "carousel" with French cars, Soviet pilots were recommended to "keep a distance" using their trump card - the great thrust-to-weight ratio of the MiG-21. Here the main thing is the position at the beginning of the battle and a portion of abrupt, energetic maneuvers that allow you to save energy, constantly remaining in a more advantageous position.

Dassault Mirage IIIC Gior Epstein - one of the most successful aces in stories jet aircraft

What did the legendary MiG-21 look like against the background of an armada of modern foreign technology? Small, light, fast interceptor - the MiG did not have super-power radars, Sparrow AIM-7 long-range missiles and impressive aim-navigation equipment - the combat capabilities of the aircraft were determined solely by the talent of the pilot. In general, the fighter was easy to operate, fast and reliable, and its excellent flight data allowed an experienced pilot to “sweep” any airborne enemy from the skies.

... By June 1970, the Soviet pilots made about 100 combat missions to intercept violators in the skies of Egypt, alas, every time Israeli aircraft refused to join the battle - when the slightest danger of a collision occurred, the enemy would immediately go deep into their territory. The hide-and-seek continued until 25 June 1970 of the year - on that day a pair of Soviet MiGs (pilots Krapivin and Salnik) secretly stepped in to intercept the Skyhawk attack aircraft — one of the MiGs-launched self-guided missiles P-3 hit the aircraft engine with the “Star of David” on the fuselage . However, the resilient Skyhawk managed to stabilize the flight and, smoked with a ruined nozzle, dissolved in the sky beyond the Suez Canal.

The intoxicating taste of victory demanded an immediate continuation - an ambush on Israeli Mirages was scheduled for June 27: Egyptian MiG-17 launched a provocative attack on Israeli positions on the eastern side of the channel - then, according to the plan, the Mirage link would have to rise to intercept arrogant MiGs . Egyptian aircraft used as bait will lure them into their territory, where three groups of MiGs with Soviet crews will enter the battle. Further, the enemy is simply smeared in the air.

The plan didn't work. Apparently sensing something was wrong, the Israelis refused to rise to interception. “Utyuzhuzhiv” Israeli stronghold, Egyptian aircraft calmly returned to their airfields. The trouble happened in the evening of the same day. The Egyptians repeated the blow - this time a Quartet of Miraj fell out of the burning heat of the Sinai air. They managed to lure into Egyptian territory, however ... there are no Russian fighters anywhere! The disgusting interaction between the Russian and Egyptian command did not allow the interceptors to be raised on time. The Israelis shot, as in exercises, two MiG-17 and with impunity left the channel line. The four "Russian" MiG-21s watched the beatings of the Egyptian MiGs, but the ground command bureau prohibited the engagement before the arrival of the other two links.

The battle

30 July was given a general battle. That battle, which was so long awaited and for which so intensely prepared. In a number of Russian sources, this event is held under the designation “Battle over El Sokhna”. Official Israeli title: Operation Rimon-20.

Over 40 years, this story is overwhelmed with such an inconceivable number of myths and legends that it is almost impossible to establish the exact details, character and chronicle of the fierce air battle between the USSR Air Force and Hel Haavir (Israel Air Force Defense Army) that took place on July 30 of the year. The only thing that can be talked about with some degree of certainty is: the approximate composition of the forces, the names of some participants and, most importantly, its tragic results - on that day several MiGs with Soviet crews were really shot down. As a result of the air battle killed:

Zhuravlev Vladimir Aleksandrovich - captain, senior pilot. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

Yurchenko Nikolay Petrovich - captain, flight commander. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

Yakovlev Evgeny Gerasimovich - captain, flight commander. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

One thing is quite obvious - it was an organized ambush of the Israeli Air Force (it is called “Operation Rimon-20”). But how was it that the Soviet pilots were trapped? And why could not get out of it?

There are many answers. According to the bum-patriotic version of Israel, twenty Soviet MiG-21 pounced on the "defenseless" pair of reconnaissance Mirage (bait). Alas, to their surprise, the Russians found four fighter planes flying in front of them, so that on the screens of the Egyptian ground-based radar the entire 2 mark was displayed. Realizing that this was some kind of setup, the Russians twitched and SUDDENLY found themselves surrounded by 12 aircraft of the Israeli Air Force.

20 MiGs vs. 16 "Phantoms" and "Mirage." As a result, experienced Israeli fighter jets shot five Soviet aces, as partridges, and, without losing a single aircraft, returned to their airfields. That night at the air bases of Hel Haavir buzzed a feast - the happy pilots drank their prizes for the Russians they killed ... Happy End!

The version is vulgar and, of course, very far from the truth. For example, one of the noteworthy versions from the Ukrainian researcher V. Babich is as follows:

There was no 20 vs 16 combat. On that day, there were several fights, separated in time and space - and every time MiGs fought many times superior enemy forces - when one Soviet four got into battle, the other four MiGs were already leaving the battlefield with a critical balance of fuel. The Israelis have calculated everything and were able to achieve a concentration of forces in the right place and the right moment.

The first was shot down by Captain Yurchenko - his MiG exploded in the air from a Sidewinder rocket. A few minutes later, Captains Yakovlev and Syrkin had to eject - alas, when they landed, Captain Yakovlev fell into a crevice and crashed to death (there is a version that the canopy of his parachute was burned by a jet fighter flying by).

It is still not known exactly how Captain Zhuravlev died - according to eyewitness recollections, he fought alone against four enemy aircraft, until he was hit by a crazy Mirage gun cannon. There is an opinion that two Israeli pilots, Ift Spector and Abraham Salmon, who barely reached the territory of Israel in a damaged car, almost fell victim to it.

The explosion of "Mirage"

Israel’s ace Asher Snir’s Mirage was also damaged - the P-13 rocket fired into the plane damaged the aircraft, but the warhead of the small P-13 was too small to stop the Mirage’s flight - Asher Snir left the battlefield and urgently sat at the airbase Refadim (this is what his combat colleague Amos Amir writes about in his book Fire in the Sky).

Yurchenko - shot down, died; Yakovlev - shot down, died; Syrkin - shot down, he survived; Zhuravlev - shot down, died.
But what about the fifth shot down Russian aircraft? And he was gone! About the downed aircraft and its pilot is not known.

According to rumors, the Israelis managed to shoot down Captain Kamenev’s plane, but there is no evidence of this. In addition, Captain Kamenev himself subsequently continued to serve in the ranks of the USSR Air Force. Rumors, rumors ... sometimes they say that one of the MiGs made an emergency landing on one of the Egyptian airfields. No one knows what really happened.

At the same time, there are witness testimonies, according to which, after the battle, the Israeli search and rescue helicopters were circling over the battlefield - did the “unbreakable” Hel Haavir suffer any losses? It is not excluded. The operation involved a lot of "Mirage" from 101, 117 and 119 squadrons, as well as multipurpose fighter "Phantom" from the 69 squadron of the Israeli Air Force. There is a high probability that the loss of one (or several) machines was carefully hidden, and the results of the battle were falsified.

Without resorting to questionable conspiracy, the following reliable facts can be established:
As a result of the 30.07.1970 battle, the 4 MiG-21 was shot down, and three Soviet pilots were killed.
The credible loss of the Israeli Air Force was shot down by Asher Snir’s Mirage, which landed at Refadim airbase.

After battle

A sad and instructive story. Not wanting to “tamper with the facts” (we were not shot down, but we were theirs!) Or “find the guilty” (there were more of them! So not fair), I note that the Israeli pilots did have a number of serious advantages.

1. The Israeli Air Force had the opportunity to LEADLY study the MiG-21 fighter.
15 August 1966 of Iraqi pilot Munir Redfa hijacked the MiG-21 to Israel (Operation Penicillin). The plane was carefully studied, disassembled and even flown around - the Israelis got a complete picture of the design, combat capabilities and secrets of the Soviet fighter. The Soviet pilots, alas, did not have such an opportunity - familiarity with the enemy "Mirage" and "Phantoms" took place directly in air combat.

2. The Israelis used the latest tactical techniques - an excellent organization of combat, the use of EW facilities - squalls of radio-electronic jamming "hammered" all Soviet lines of communication, completely disrupting battle management.

3. Combat experience. The Israeli Air Force did have an impressive practice of conducting air battles - every day, for many years, the Hel Haavir fighters flew to intercept air targets - regular air fights in the entire altitude range, dashing chases and missile exchanges, departures to accompany strike groups ... Similar things lay their imprint on the organization of the combat work of aviation.
One of the clearest examples is the scrupulous coverage of the situation in the air: not only the current courses of the aircraft, but also their radio communications were applied to the combat tablet - this made it possible in a few seconds to sort out the situation and redirect the aircraft to where they were most needed.

4. The most important. Pilot training and control system in combat.
In one of the interviews, the commander of the Israeli Air Force, Lieutenant-General Mordechai Hoth, said: "We say the squadron commander just needs to be done, and he decides how to do it." Analyzing the results of combat sorties, the Israeli Air Force shifted the center of gravity of preparations for the battle to a link level. The squadron commander independently planned the scenario of the upcoming operation, using "homework" and the accumulated data on the behavior of enemy aircraft in the air.

Unlike Israeli pilots, Soviet fighters were shackled by a monstrous chain of prohibitions, recommendations and prescriptions. It was not by chance that immediately after the tragic events of 30.07.1970, all the participants in the battle were gathered by the commander of the Soviet aviation group in Egypt, General Grigory Ustinovich Dolnikov:

The meaning of what was said was that all prohibitions and restrictions on pilotage and combat maneuver were lifted. We had to start aerial training with a clean slate and be guided in it by our common sense, and not by a foreign conscience. The general urged us to believe in our own instincts and intuitions, and he himself pledged to believe in our common good fortune.

“Egyptian fighters in the“ war of attrition ”, History of Aviation, # XXUMX / 2

http://www.skywar.ru
http://www.hubara-rus.ru
http://airwar.ru
"Fire in the Sky" by Amos Amir (brigadier-general). UK: Pen & Sword Aviation, 2005

Comments

[Toit]

Very interesting. Thank.

[trenitron]

An interesting article talk about. Well, let's try to make it out. The article indicates the first battle between Israeli and Soviet pilots, this is 25.06.70/4/20. An Israeli attack aircraft was hit. Now about what the article does not contain, but is available in open sources. Immediately thereafter, Israel began to actively consult with its overseas masters, i.e. with the XNUMXth Reich. The consequence of this was the careful development of the operation, which received the name "Rimon-XNUMX". As you can see, about a month has passed. Considering the information received by Israel about the air situation, the electronic warfare means used, as well as the chosen ambush tactics, this event took place. Moreover, Avi Gilad himself, giving an assessment of what happened, also said that it was just a trap. Thus, the self-praise and self-praise of Israeli and foreign media to Israeli pilots and their complete superiority over Soviet pilots is all from the evil one. Pilots of any Air Force who find themselves in the same situation is not a fact that they would not have suffered even greater losses. See things objectively

[aksakal]

Quote: trenitron

Moreover, Avi Gilad himself, giving an assessment of what happened, also said that it was just a trap

- A typical skillfully crafted ambush. In an ambush, the losses of the party that fell into this ambush are always great. The fact that only 4 aircraft were destroyed with such a trap is a praise to the conscienceful pilots and Israeli fairies. But lessons need to be learned. Extract from all real clashes, but from such - ESPECIALLY!

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

What was destroyed in such a trap only 4 aircraft - praise to conscience pilots and Israeli fairies

it reminds me of scouts and spies.
So a trap organized by owls. the pilots (and what the Israeli Air Force did not fall for) is cool and all the heroes

On June 27, an ambush was planned on the Israeli Mirages: the Egyptian MiG-17 delivered a provocative attack on Israeli positions on the eastern side of the canal - then, according to the plan, the Mirage link was to rise to intercept the arrogant MiGs. Egyptian planes used as bait will lure them to their territory, where three MiG groups with Soviet crews will enter the battle. Further, the enemy will simply be smeared in the air. The plan did not work. Apparently sensing something was amiss, the Israelis refused to climb the intercept.

But when the Israelis competently set up a trap and did what they wanted to do to them, namely

where three MiG groups with Soviet crews will enter the battle. Further, the enemy will simply be smeared in the air

.
then say nothing

praise to the conscientious pilots and the Israeli fairies.

you have nothing to mumble

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: atalef

you have nothing to mumble

It is not so much the fault of the Soviet pilots as the failure of the mission control center, the underestimation of the enemy.

[atalef]

Quote: saturn.mmm

It is not so much the fault of the Soviet pilots as the failure of the mission control center, the underestimation of the enemy

And who was in the centers? Aliens?

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: atalef

And who was in the centers? Aliens?

No, in the centers sat central.
And the pilots are probably the ones that fly.

[atalef]

Quote: saturn.mmm

No, in the centers sat central.

Then - CENTER

[KaPToC]

Quote: atalef

Then - CENTER

Spin like in a pan.

[gafarovsafar]

pistes now some kind of Jew will be dug up all his life because of a successful ambush, you win the war first. six-day or whatever else you see victorious is not a war these are local operations successfully carried out. a long protracted war of 3-4 years will not win simply because it is real.

[Vladimir 5]

Why did our ambushes and other tricks not work, and the Israelis almost always. The answer is simple - betrayal in our camp, both by Arab officers, and some of ours, who later moved to Israel for permanent residence. Intelligence of Israel is possible and bugs had at our headquarters and so on. Because they were invincible .....

[Pimply]

Lower the degree of pathos - this is ridiculous. Make a trap for Soviet pilots, you would extol their tactical find. Extend your fingers, not on the arrow.

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

Lower the degree of pathos - this is ridiculous. Make a trap for Soviet pilots, you would extol their tactical find. Spread your fingers, not on the arrow

- Dear, no one bent his fingers, they simply state their version and their vision of those events, that's all.

Quote: Pimply

You would extol their tactical find

- I don’t think so. There were plenty of such tactical finds in the Korean War and in the Vietnam War. In the Korean War, one Kozhedub found such a tactical find in cases of maneuvering fights on jet aircraft a whole bunch, and nothing. They do not exalt, but they have the right to be proud. Yes, and proud of the great son of Russia. But note, there are tactical finds not the nature of ambushes and traps, there are tactical finds for maneuvering during the battle.

[Pimply]

Please note - about the degree of pathos was not to you, but to a friend up the conversation thread.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Pimply

Lower the degree of pathos - this is ridiculous. Make a trap for Soviet pilots, you would extol their tactical find. Extend your fingers, not on the arrow.

So no one denies the literacy and tactical skills of the Israeli command and pilots. But this is not a reason to consider Soviet pilots stupid blanks in the role of plates for developing shooting skills.

[Pimply]

Nobody considers them as such. The Soviet pilots in the memoirs of Israeli pilots are quite respectful. Only they write about stiffness and lack of initiative.

[trenitron]

Well, if at the expense of fingers to me, then I will answer you. I do not see the connection between some bends of the fingers and a discussion of what is happening. Read carefully how the article is called. Given that the training of Soviet pilots was very high (not inferior to the Israeli, I think for sure), that is, there is every reason to analyze what happened, at least not to repeat it again. Colleagues do not bend their fingers, colleagues exchange opinions.

[Firstvanguard]

Discussion of a "spherical horse in a vacuum" no reliable data, only fog.

[laurbalaur]

Thanks, awesome article!

[berimor]

Son, if you want, I can tell you how it really was. Somewhere it seems to have already written something about this. After all, you know, at that time I fought there on the S-125 air defense system. Honestly, our pilots were not ready for such battles! And first of all, not so much the pilots as the control link. Little experience, little initiative, stagnation and fear of making a quick decision. General Dolnikov then said something like this: "We learned to fly, but not to fight." And soon, in my opinion, on August 7, 1970, an armistice was concluded. That's all aerial combat. Our grouping ZRV - 18 special purpose air defense systems on the S-125 air defense system, but showed itself from the best side. Actually, its introduction into battle directly in the canal zone in the so-called "ambush group" forced the Israelis to stop raids, sharply reduce their activity and switch to provocative and reconnaissance flights along the eastern bank of the canal.

[Horde]

specific sources of information for the article show where infa? followed the links nothing ...

[Papakiko]

Quote: Horde

followed the links nothing

LIKE A LIKE. : (((
I expected to see the development of this topic, discussed many times, but the result is the same. A "veil of secrecy" over Israeli casualties.
At school, for the undisclosed topic of the essay, the final score is reduced, and so here. -

Oleg, where are the facts?

2. The Israelis used the latest tactical techniques - an excellent organization of combat, the use of EW facilities - squalls of radio-electronic jamming "hammered" all Soviet lines of communication, completely disrupting battle management.
4. The most important. Pilot training and control system in combat.
In an interview, the commander of the Israeli Air Force, Lieutenant General Bogdykhai Khot said: “we say the squadron commander just needs to be done, and he decides how to do it”
5. not only the current aircraft courses, but also their radio communications were applied to the combat tablet - this made it possible to understand the situation in a matter of seconds and redirect the aircraft to where they were especially needed.
with such a "vomit" in THREE points, what to do?
Cover with a "light primer" in the form:At the same time, there are witness testimonies, according to which, after the battle, the Israeli search and rescue helicopters were circling over the battlefield - did the “unbreakable” Hel Haavir suffer any losses? It is not excluded. The operation involved a lot of "Mirage" from 101, 117 and 119 squadrons, as well as multipurpose fighter "Phantom" from the 69 squadron of the Israeli Air Force. There is a high probability that the loss of one (or several) machines was carefully hidden, and the results of the battle were falsified.

A very, very disappointing article, unfortunately.

[berimor]

Well no! The author described everything correctly. I myself fought there at that time. Yes, inexperience, poor tactical and fire training, as well as inertia in the control system, and, of course, our primordially Russian hats played a cruel joke with our pilots. By the way, I already wrote about this before. The commander of our air group in Egypt then said something like this: "Yes, we have learned to fly, but we haven’t yet blown." Our group of ZRV (18 special purpose aircraft) proved to be on the contrary very good !!!

[Horde]

funny, sweet writes, as if he was sitting in a balloon over the battlefield, and after the battle both Russians and Jews sent him reports. So they sent ours to the east to fight near, show ourselves, to fight purely with Israel? how did you get home right away ?

[Horde]

somehow it is hardly believed in the reliability of such stories. Moreover, there is NO LINK. Instead of documentary evidence, rubbish, everything is close and close, but NOTHING on the topic.

[Horde]

Conclusion sweet fulfills vb_ros information for such "interesting topic plus" for whom do you work sweet?

A very, very disappointing article, unfortunately.

It is disappointing that such unverified information, but in fact the enemy’s content, appears on fuel.

[OlegYugan]

Glory to the Heroes and eternal memory of the fallen.

[AK-47]

Quote: OlegYugan

Glory to the Heroes and eternal memory of the fallen.

Support!
Minus set by mistake, compensate.

[tomket]

If memory serves, at that time only MiGs were practiced on MiGs, but Pakistani pilots began to practice maneuvering combat for the first time on it, however paradoxical this sounds. I’ll get better on the Chinese version of the MiG.

[Strashila]

Always on the same rake ... bans and restrictions ... the war in Korea also began for our pilots.
"The Israeli Air Force had the opportunity to DEFINITELY study the MiG-21 fighter." ... yes, they knew him as flaky ... it is no secret that Israeli pilots flew with the US Air Force in Vietnam.
"All-seeing intelligence Mossad has already reported the arrival of the Russians." ... well, yes, yes, it worked.

[Professor]

Quote: Strashila

not a secret Israeli pilots flew as part of the US Air Force in Vietnam.

Can you give more details about this? In Israel, this is such a great secret that no one ever remembers it.

[Papakiko]

Quote: professor

In Israel, this is such a great secret that no one ever remembers it.

Good afternoon Guerr Professor.
Everyone knows how Israel keeps its secrets.
With "carrots" known miracles and even about "pepelatsy" and even fantasy to the fullest can be turned on.

[Professor]

Quote: Papakiko

Everyone knows how Israel keeps its secrets.

If you knew who Anat Kam was, you would not have written such ...

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: professor

If you knew who Anat Kam is,

So who is Anat Kam really?
Cam and Blau argue that the documents contained evidence of violations of the BAGAC decrees committed by the military - the army allegedly violated the law by conducting targeted liquidation of terrorists in Judea and Samaria. The former legal adviser to the government, Menachem Mazuz, who once studied these allegations, did not find the corpus delicti in the actions of the military.
Why was the girl imprisoned?

[Professor]

Quote: saturn.mmm

Why was the girl imprisoned?

Yeah, the left will make a saint out of her now. Onet stole more than 1000 secret documents, including detailed plans for the South-East Military District of the upcoming military operation in Gaza. In other countries, they put such a thing against the wall, and she received only 4.5 years.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: professor

In other countries, they put such a thing against the wall, and she received only 4.5 years.

She was told up to 3,5 years. I'm more interested in what pushed (what became the motive) the young girl to do this.
Government Advisor Menachem Mazuz, who once studied these allegations, did not find the offense in the actions of the military.

[Pimply]

Youth and views. There are a large number of "leftist" youth in Israel with their beliefs that seem to them to be true.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Pimply

There are a large number of "leftist" youth in Israel with their beliefs that seem to them to be true.

Specialists worked poorly that allowed a girl with such views to work in the office of the headquarters.
Was she at least 20 interested at the time of the theft of documents?

[Pimply]

Somewhere like that. 19-20. However, she leaked to a specific journalist, so that the damage was not too great. The journalist did not behave like a journalist - he lit it. I think there is a considerable share of guilt on him - she passed on to him on the condition that most of it will be hidden. And he, without thinking twice, published everything.

In fact, now a fairly common topic - Wikilix, too, was missed out on the main informant.

[Professor]

Without a corpus delicti, 3.5 years in prison are not given. She decided that she was not a soldier, but a journalist and Blau divorced her. She decided that she would change the world.

[lazy]

Professor, what about your physicist who revealed Israel’s nuclear weapons?

[Professor]

He served 18 years and freely drives to Israel.

[lazy]

Thank you, but somehow everything calmed down about him, although in those years they wrote a lot

[Pimply]

He just did not smell of ideology. The comrade was not a physicist, but a technician - he failed the exams at the university. Offended by the fact that he was fired, and decided to cut the dough.

[Papakiko]

Quote: professor

If you knew who Anat Kam is

Enlighten Herrrr Professor, personally I am ready to familiarize myself with something new and unfamiliar. If there are pictures or videos, then just a "cookie".
(I hope this is not a star of Western European "shadow" cinema)

[sivuch]

such anatas appeared much later

[Corsair]

Quote: professor

Can you give more details about this? In Israel, this is such a great secret that no one ever remembers it.

Still, to destroy the civilian population of the DRV from the air as part of the US Air Force, and shout about it to the whole world !? The USSR in the Middle East still had some interests (albeit controversial), but what kind of Jews (Jews) brought you to Southeast Asia ???

[Professor]

Quote: Corsair

You (Jews) what the hell brought in Southeast Asia ???

Are you able to confirm these tales?

[Tourist Breakfast]

You (Jews) what the hell brought in Southeast Asia ???

Before writing nonsense, it would be nice to connect a little thought and remember that simultaneously with the Vietnam War in BV there were three wars at once:
Six Day War of Attrition and Doomsday War. When do you think the Israeli pilots still had time to bomb Vietnam?

[fzr1000]

For you, Professor, I mentioned this in bold. But in fairness it must be said that one cannot consider a Jew, a US citizen who fought in Vietnam, an Israeli citizen.
On June 30, 1970, they took the battle and repelled two enemy air raids by the anti-aircraft missile battalions under the command of Captain V. Malyauka and Major G. Komyagin, destroying the two Phantoms and Skyhawk Israelis. For the first Phantom shot down in Egyptian land, Captain V. Malyauka was awarded the Order of the Red Banner of War, although the documents were sent to the Hero of the Soviet Union. Later, the divisions of majors S. Zavesnitsky and I. Kuzmenko distinguished themselves.
On July 18, the Israelis attempted to eliminate the Soviet anti-aircraft missile group. In a raid on five divisions participated 24 "Phantoms" (six
groups of four fighter-bomber in each).
The equipment of false positions helped us out - with plywood models of missiles and control cabins. Six of these "dummies" Israelis razed to the ground, thereby spraying forces and wasted ammunition in vain. Nevertheless, two Russian divisions came under attack.
Lieutenant Colonel V. Tolokonnikov’s division was raided from different directions. As a result of a fierce battle, the rocket men destroyed two enemy aircraft and shot down another. However, the four Israeli "Phantoms", having come from the rear (from the depths of Egyptian territory) and successfully using air bombs and NURSs, disabled the antenna post. Then there was a direct hit of a bomb equipped with napalm in the launcher at the time of its reloading. The rocket explosion killed Lieutenant S. Sumin and a launch crew consisting of Sergeant A. Mammadov, Corporal A. Zabuga, ordinary twin brothers I. and N. Dovganiukov, G. Velichko, N. Dobizhi, E. Didenko and I. Pak .
During this battle, four enemy aircraft were shot down. In this case, one of the "Phantoms" was "special." The navigator of his crew, Menachem Eini, died, and the pilot-commander, Captain Chamuel Hets (from American Jews), who had previously participated in the Vietnam War, was captured. The plane crashed into deep sands and remained intact, which immediately attracted the attention of Soviet experts. Soon the plane and the pilot were sent to Moscow.
And on August 3, the personnel of the divisions of Lieutenant Colonels K. Popov and N. Kutyntsev, who were awarded the title of Heroes of the Soviet Union with the awarding of Lenin orders and Gold Star medals, showed great skill and courage in repelling the raids of Israeli aviation. These two divisions in just one day hit five Israeli aircraft, which had never happened before. In total, from June 30 to August 3, 12 were shot down and three enemy aircraft were shot down.

[Professor]

Quote: fzr1000

During this battle, four enemy aircraft were shot down. In this case, one of the "Phantoms" was "special." The navigator of his crew, Menachem Eini, was killed, and the pilot-commander, Captain Chamuel Hets (from American Jews), who had previously participated in the Vietnam War, was captured. The plane crashed into deep sands and remained intact, which immediately attracted the attention of Soviet experts. Soon the plane and the pilot were sent to Moscow.

Oh how I can not believe it. After the war, the place where the plane crashed and its wreckage was discovered where the body of Shmuel Hetz was found (who was taken to Moscow?). He was buried with the appropriate honors.
;

Most importantly, he was not an American Jew, was born in Haifa on 11.2.1938/1957/XNUMX, since XNUMX he served in Tsahal and has never been to Vietnam.
חץ, שמואל

[Tourist Breakfast]

In fact, the War of Attrition (1969-1970) occurred at the very height of the Vietnam War. It turns out that American pilots had to desert from the US Air Force in order to take part in the hostilities in the BV.

[Papakiko]

Quote: professor

After the war, the crash site and its wreckage were examined where the body of Shmuel Hetz was discovered

These lines immediately show through and this "transparent" is clearly a lie. (Not your address, but information). The Egyptians and the USSR specialists are especially "na-a-chuck" to something, "something, somewhere" fell and confirm their well-aimed hits there is no need to look for "interesting equipment" and boredom. And what about the remains of "walkers", military honors, is it "sinful" to mention?

[Professor]

Quote: Papakiko

And what about the remains of "walkers", military honors, and even "sinful" to mention?

I do not quite understand. The pilot was buried as expected and his memory was immortalized, a park was set up in his honor.

[fzr1000]

After dark on July 18.07.1970, 20, Israeli helicopters were sent to the area of ​​the recent battle to evacuate the ejected pilots. At about 21-XNUMX o'clock, Zrdn Mansurova found in his zone a low-altitude low-speed target - an Israeli helicopter. The launcher issued "Permission", but a prohibition followed from the gearbox. the command wanted to save the missiles, which certainly saved the helicopter crew.

Apparently, the Israelites had someone to save if they decided to put their search teams at risk. It is unlikely that helicopters would begin to search for someone in the night desert if there wasn’t a signal from the catapults. Hetz was killed, his operator Eini was captured, therefore, helicopters rescued the crews of other downed planes, which subsequently did not fall into the official reports of the losses of Hel Haavir.

After the battle, Shmuel Hatz was awarded the rank of lieutenant colonel in absentia. The place where he crashed was not known. What happened to the pilot and his plane was only found out after 3 years. During the October War ("Yom Kippur War") in December 1973 near Izmailia, aircraft parts were found scattered over a large area, the remains of the body and personal belongings of the crew. Inspection of the wreckage revealed that it belonged to Shmuel Hatz's Phantom.

[Professor]

Quote: fzr1000

. The place of the fall where he crashed was not known.

It is known. In my link above, former Air Force commander Dan Halutz recalls seeing one parachute and an airplane blast on the ground.

During the October War ("Yom Kippur War") in December 1973 near Izmailia, aircraft parts were found scattered over a large area, the remains of the body and personal belongings of the crew.

Either you write that Hets was taken to Moscow, then you suddenly found the remains of a body ... The same thing happened with a plane that almost fell to the ground, or wreckage on a large area.

[fzr1000]

You do not like that I confirmed your version? What they write on the Internet, I spread it.

[Professor]

Without problems, however, quoting it is customary to select the text in oblique type and indicate the source. So it will be seen where your words where strangers.

[fzr1000]

Approx.

http://www.hubara-rus.ru/kavkaz3.html#18.07.70

[fzr1000]

It seems that Menachem Eini, with severe fractures, was captured. I rummaged longer than the network.

[i.xxx-1971]

Wait a minute! I have all the moves recorded!

[Papakiko]

Quote: Strashila

same rake ... prohibitions and restrictions

Do you sincerely believe that?
It looks something like this: I sit in the toilet and convince myself that the subscription is enough for wiping.
- Stupid?

Quote: tomket

If memory serves, then on MiGs exclusively interception was worked out

Here a man speaks viciously.

[Pimply]

What a joy to Israeli air force pilots to be in Vietnam if there was more than enough military practice in the Middle East, and the US Air Force did not experience a shortage of pilots. And the warming of relations between the United States and Israel began only in 1969.
Perhaps, if you publish information, somehow confirm it?

[berimor]

All right! At that time I was there (in the ZRV grouping on the S-125 air defense system) and a witness said everything.

[ed65b]

It turns out that in the sky of Vietnam, the United States phantoms ruined the ghosts as partridges and the Jews could not. It turns out that the US pilots are less prepared than the pilots of Israel, and the pilots of the USSR are generally pioneers ?. In general, again, the Jews are the most intelligent and fearless fighters and the Russian Ivanes sucks and useless warriors. Strange all this is very strange.

[Mairos]

Combat experience. The Israeli Air Force at that time had many years of combat experience of war on modern technology for that time. And not only in the Air Force. And, yes, a good army, excellent training. It is foolish to think that a country that has fought almost non-stop since the late 40s could have a different army and a different intelligence.

[i.xxx-1971]

The U.S. Air Force has not stopped fighting since 1945, but it really was unlucky in Korea and Vietnam.

[gladcu2]

Marios

If you judge by a glass of beer with an Israeli who served in the USSR army, he will tell you a lot of unusual things about training in his army. Who served in the army of the USSR rests in other armies.
You can dig on the Internet.

[Llirik]

Please tell us in more detail about the participation of Soviet pilots in military clashes in the sky of Vietnam. And for some reason I only heard about sorties during the Korean War. And in Vietnam, it seems, only missile defense units were. If wrong, please enlighten.

[ed65b]

I remember all the guys in our group who, in difficult conditions, honestly performed their duties assigned to them. Fate scattered them around the world. Many of them now live in other countries, but the memory of their comrades has no boundaries, and we will keep it forever. My fellow pilots, who flew day and night in the absence of some navigation and landing equipment, will forever remain in my memory. I will give their names. These are Galkin A.K., Karnaukhov K.V., Makarov V., Trefilov V.Ya., Ignatova V.A. I remember with great love our workers of the engineering and technical staff Polevoy V.F., Morozov P.N., Bezborodova Ya.M., Selyaeva N.D., Tomilets G.R., Boyko N., Korchagina V.L., Baalma E.U., Menshikh I.A., Samylova B.N., Grudina V.N. ., combat control officer (aka freelance chief of staff of the group) Miroshnik SA, aviation doctor Aslanov G.Kh.
With great respect, I recall our immediate superior, Major General Aviation Antsiferov, Evgeny Nikolaevich. He died in a plane crash as deputy commander of an aviation association. Eternal Glory to him! We will keep the memory of him forever. The great help to our group was rendered by the deputy Evgeny Nikolaevich (chief of staff of the Air Force Air Force group) ev P.E.

[ed65b]

The fighter pilot of the USSR Air Force P.I. Isaev is preparing to take off from the Vietnamese airfield Noi Bai, 1968

[meandr51]

This is just an episode of war. He is not talking about anything. There is an element of luck in everything. Sometimes some are stupid, sometimes others.
I had to read about the MIG-21 that its collimator sight “stuck” at large overloads, without giving out a lead point for firing. The pilots used a felt-tip pen to draw a crosshair in rings directly on the glass. The terms of reference for the sight simply did not provide for the conditions of maneuverable combat.
The maneuverable training of the pilots was also small. Trained for interception by teams. Well, and in the radio counter Israel was then ahead. Therefore, victory did not happen. But also consider that the Israelis are telling the truth about zero losses, is also not worth it. They never recognized losses. It is unlikely that the bill was dry. Moreover, war is not a world championship. Aces are knocked out quickly and in various ways. Pilots change tactics on the go. Dumb commanders are fired, replacing those who have proven themselves. In the event of a long-term large-scale war, the USSR would do anything to anyone, including the United States. Not the first time.

[Rus86]

don’t say, warriors are noble Jews. really sorry for our guys. but even such an experience cannot be lost. take into account mistakes for future fights.

[datur]

Hmm, and again, these Jewish myths about their God-chosen and invincibility !!!!!

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: datur

Hmm, and again, these Jewish myths about their God-chosen and invincibility !!!!!

What are the myths? What invincibility? In October of the 1973 of the year, the Air Force IDF lost 102 aircraft over the battlefield and 8 were decommissioned at the airdromes as having no possibility of recovery. Dozens of pilots and navigators died, and no one makes a secret of this.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

Dozens of pilots and navigators died, and no one makes a secret of this.

But you modestly kept silent that from the opposing side (Egypt, Syria, etc.) over 350 planes were lost and casualties exceeded about ten times.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: saturn.mmm

Quote: Aron Zaavi

Dozens of pilots and navigators died, and no one makes a secret of this.

But you modestly kept silent that from the opposing side (Egypt, Syria, etc.) over 350 planes were lost and casualties exceeded about ten times.

It was just about losses of the AOI Air Force.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

It was just about losses of the AOI Air Force.

Huge money to maintain the regimes would be better spent on the construction of roads and the development of the production base in the USSR, on education and science, as well as housing for people.
The result of the activities of the USSR in the Middle East ultimately tends to zero.

[meandr51]

This does not mean that a great power does not need to pursue an active foreign policy. Without it, there will be no funds for domestic construction. In the USA, for example, they are well aware of this. A negative result is also a result. You just have to act differently. For example, having suffered a large-scale and shameful defeat in Vietnam, the USA for some reason did not start building houses for the unemployed and repairing cracked highways in Texas. And they changed the strategy and tactics of their military adventures. Russia should do the same. Which, in principle, she does.

[meandr51]

Secrets, maybe not, but they don’t even speak. Or try to deny. And about these downed 5 MIGs I’ve been reading for the hundredth time.

[misham]

The battle experience is once again paid for in blood. Yes, our shot down. And the planes are no worse and the pilots at the level. But the result is the result
What fathers are commanders. not everything is decided by the technique.
Flexibility, mobility, concentration of forces in the right place and always on time, widespread use of intelligence data. All this has always been lame. And then there are political restrictions, flying no further than the canal zone (God forbid they bring down and the enemy finds out that ours is here). The Israelis owned the initiative. Our generals and the Central Committee of the CPSU are to blame. If the fighting continued and further the score would have gradually leveled off. But this was not .................

[ed65b]

But the amers in Vietnam did not own the initiative? Nevertheless, they were knocked down and, in an instant, 21 phantoms completely unraveled. The story with a stifle 100%.

[fzr1000]

It’s just that, of course, the result of those battles is unpleasant for us, but the fact was. It was necessary to send there the MiG 25 and our then senior leadership to behave more decisively, or not to get into a fight at all. What can you do now.

[Tourist Breakfast]

It was necessary to send there the MiG 25

The MiG-25 is a high-altitude interceptor designed to intercept B-58 and Valkyries. Maneuverable air combat with fighters is not for him.

[fzr1000]

Is MiG 21 not an interceptor?

[Tourist Breakfast]

Is MiG 21 not an interceptor?

MiG-21 - Interceptor fighter.

[fzr1000]

A MiG 25 bomber-interceptor? He is also an interceptor fighter.

[Tourist Breakfast]

A MiG 25 bomber-interceptor? He is also an interceptor fighter.

The main advantages of the MiG-25 are speed and altitude. This is not quite what you need for maneuverable air combat with enemy fighters. And the MiG-21 came to replace the MiG-23.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

The main advantages of the MiG-25 are speed and altitude. This is not quite what you need for maneuverable air combat with enemy fighters.

Your opinion, was it possible to use the MiG-25 to control the far air zone and impede the approach of reserves, taking advantage of the firing range?

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: fzr1000

A MiG 25 bomber-interceptor?

MiG-25RB bomber, carrier of vigorous weapons.

[fzr1000]

Probably a fighter-bomber.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

MiG-21 - Interceptor fighter.

Mig-25 soviet supersonic high-altitude fighter-interceptor of the 3rd generation.
This is a complete definition.
And Mig-21 is a Soviet multirole fighter.
Just a fighter can to some extent intercept

[ed65b]

The Phantom’s main rival, the MiG-21 front-line fighter, was also created in 1958. Unlike the American aircraft, the Russian aircraft, designed to operate on the front line, at a small distance from the base airfield, belonged to another “weight category” (the normal take-off weight of modifications used in Vietnam was less than 8 tons) and had a significantly shorter range - about 1500 km. However, according to other flight characteristics (maximum speed 2175-2300 km / h, practical ceiling - 18 000-19000 m), the MiG was not inferior to its American rival. The armament composition of the MiG-21 aircraft was also much weaker than that of the "American" - two (hereinafter - four) medium-range air-to-air missiles R-9s with infrared homing (Soviet "pirate" copy of the American UR AIM- 23 "Sidewinder"), as well as one (on a number of modifications is missing) gun 30 or 21 mm caliber. As you can see, the MiG-4 and F-XNUMX are very different planes that were created to solve various problems.

[REZMovec]

No - this is a front-line fighter. Interceptors are Su-9, -11, -15, MiG-25, Tu-128, Yak-25, -28 ... i.e. machines equipped with search radar. On the 21st there is a miserable semblance of a radar.

[saturn.mmm]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

MiG-25 high-speed high-altitude interceptor

In fact, the MiG-25RB was used in the Arab-Israeli conflict of the 70s, but not for maneuverable combat.
We, the Russians, have a problem in that at first we throw all our hats on and only then we start to think, and sometimes with the Arabs there are difficulties of understanding. In the Middle East, we lost more than we found.

[fzr1000]

They were used for reconnaissance.

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

Just the annoyed and angry pilots, who are discussed in the SABJ, simply begged the party leadership to continue the battles and take revenge - well, what happened, it was, there were some mistakes in planning the battle, but the pilots analyzed and understood everything, they wanted to continue and level the score, or even come forward.

Reminds the last World Cup in hockey, and football, and the Olympics. What to fight with fists after a fight

Ilya Kovalchuk: We went out and crap

[fzr1000]

Israel, like, never obssera?

[alicante11]

Something I do not see on the podium of the Israelis in these championships.

[atalef]

Quote: alicante11

Something I do not see on the podium of the Israelis in these championships.

Well, the athletes are none of us (except basketball). We are not on these matters. Or have we gradually switched to sports? Remember the ballet, here we are in full ass.

[Reserve buildbat]

It was reported that the MiG-25RB were also used for bombing from high altitudes at supersonic speeds by the FAB-500TS bombs

[berimor]

Here is the confirmation of my words above

[aksakal]

Quote: fzr1000

It was necessary to send there the MiG 25 and our then senior leadership to behave more decisively, or not to get into a fight at all. What can you do now

“Yes, they sent him later.” Just the annoyed and angry pilots, who are discussed in the SABJ, simply begged the party leadership to continue the battles and take revenge - well, what happened, it was, there were some mistakes in planning the battle, but the pilots analyzed and understood everything, they wanted to continue and level the score, or even come forward.
But the party leadership deemed it necessary not to take any further risks, but simply barked at Israel in an ultimatum form and sent just this MiG-25 in confirmation. This latest MiG flew at high altitude over Israel, after unsuccessful attempts to bring it down (the Israelis had nothing to shoot down such an aircraft at that time - there were no mirages or phantoms to such an altitude, there were no high-altitude air defense systems either) Golda Meir accepted the conditions of the USSR ultimatum .
So the MiG-25 was there and played there almost the decisive role. I didn’t even have to fight, I just drew circles over Tel Aviv and retired home. Here he was the Soviet Union. Even despite the fact that sometimes his pilots were shot down. But these are local failures, do not be very upset. They all have.
It is annoying now that the raid of the current Russian pilots has increased only in the last two years, and before that - generally extinguish the light! Set such pilots against modern Israelis - I won’t even speak. And in part of the ultimatums - the Soviet Union, Israel was frankly afraid, and now they are bombing Syria defiantly without any urgent need, partly because it would emphasize where Russia’s opinion clearly indicates that Syria is under its protectorate.

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

like the MiG-25 was there and played there almost the decisive role. I didn’t even have to fight, I just drew circles over Tel Aviv and retired home.

Well, and as a result, Egypt won the war and sent the States to X R E N? Or something else ended?

Quote: aksakal

But these are local failures, do not be very upset. They all have.

How strategically ended? Please remind. Maybe I'm somehow not in the course?

Quote: aksakal

The Soviet Union, Israel was frankly afraid

Well, you compared. Somehow whose war was it? Or USSR with Israel directly fought?
Or what all the same all the Soviet aid to Egypt ended? And why were these victims (Soviet pilots)? If, after a few years, Egypt raised its paws, drove out all the advisers, canceled its debts and crawled-crawled toward the United States.
You don’t think that if the USSR had entered directly into the war with Israel, the Americans would have entered, and this is the third world war, you think the USSR did not understand this. Therefore, they swallowed the pill with Egypt.

[aksakal]

Quote: atalef

Well, and as a result, Egypt won the war and sent the States to X R E N? Or something else ended?

This is Egypt's choice. The fact that he now "hawala", all these endless and already permanent revolutions is a consequence of that choice. Will you deny? I chose it myself - even if it cleans up.
Syria also made its choice. She, too, is now hard, but at least her prospects are already visible. The defeat of the bandits is already clearly indicated, and if there is no invasion of strong countries, then I can even impose a time frame for Syria to move from the civil war into the CTO regime.
So let Egypt sit and smoke The complete somalization of Egypt is a matter of the very near future. Here is malevolent and here is very malevolent

Quote: atalef

How strategically ended? Please remind. Maybe I'm somehow not in the course?

- just this example in SABZH and the fact of history cited by me is a rare example of the manifestation of the wisdom of the highest leadership of the USSR. "Rare" - to my great regret. The Chinese sages-masters of martial arts say: the best fight is a fight that did not take place, but at the same time you achieved your goals. That's exactly what happened here! And I applaud.
And just a few years later, the same leadership of the USSR did not have the wisdom to razrulit in Afghanistan as well. And it’s not entirely clear why. It seems that the faces were the same, more experience. Probably still some senile changes.
I express my hope that Putin will destroy what is happening in your region (including Syria) in the same way, without a fight, but at the same time achieving his goals.

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

This is the choice of Egypt.

Of course, and absolutely logical, after 5 lost wars, you can understand that it's time to change horses

Quote: aksakal

The fact that he now "hawala", all these endless and already permanent revolutions is a consequence of that choice.

Wow, how bent, and the collapse of the Soviet Bloc, the USSR, etc. - the result of what? Maybe also because of Egypt. And the 5 lost wars are the result of what? Or again advisers class, weapons - class, soldiers . Means it was necessary to train appropriately or not to get involved with morons

Quote: aksakal

She, too, is now hard, but at least her prospects are already visible.

Prospects are not visible and no one knows how it will end, even if Assad wins. I would even say that after the war the problems only begin

Quote: aksakal

then I can even impose a time frame for Syria's transition from the Civil War to the CTO regime

Tell me

Quote: aksakal

a rare example of the manifestation of wisdom of the highest leadership of the USSR "Rare" - to my great regret. The Chinese sages-masters of martial arts say: the best fight is a fight that did not take place, but at the same time you achieved your goals

And what goals have been achieved. In more detail, please.

Quote: aksakal

This is exactly what happened here! And I applaud.

To whom? who received the funeral and who lost the war, and who paid for all this?

Quote: aksakal

It seems that the faces were the same, more experience. Probably still some senile changes.

so simple ? And what goals did Afghanistan achieve?

Quote: aksakal

I express my hope that Putin will destroy what is happening in your region (including Syria)

It doesn’t. There is no influence, and the Syrians will remain Syrians 9 as the Egyptians in their time). Putin is the only thing that (maybe) will be able to keep Assad, but to clear the BV-certainly not.

Quote: aksakal

but at the same time achieving their goals.

And about this in more detail. What are the goals?

[xan]

Quote: atalef

Of course, and absolutely logical, after 5 lost wars, you can understand that it's time to change horses

The Egyptians changed, but the Jewish war has not ended yet, the Jewish war will not end at all. Or it will end, but the Jews will not like it.

Quote: atalef

Or again, advisers are a class, weapons are a class, soldiers are negative. Means it was necessary to train appropriately or not to get involved with morons

They forgot to ask you.
Advise yourselves in hats.

[atalef]

Quote: xan

The Egyptians changed, but the Jewish war has not ended yet, the Jewish war will not end at all. Or it will end, but the Jews will not like it.

Life is generally a strange thing, then you are on a horse, then under a horse. While on horseback, wait and see. This can be said for any country. Judged by what happened, and the future? Tomorrow (as an example) oil prices will collapse, what will be the consequences?

Quote: xan

They forgot to ask you.

The only thing that is good in your comments is your personal dreams, you are not friends with the facts; a priori

[ultra]

Quote: atalef

oil prices will collapse, what are the consequences?

IMHO-the faster they collapse (unfortunately this is unlikely) the better for Russia! If imports fall, this will provide an incentive for the development of domestic production, devaluation of the ruble (within reasonable limits) is again a big plus for the economy.

[atalef]

Quote: ultra

IMHO-the faster they collapse (unfortunately this is unlikely) the better for Russia! If imports fall, this will provide an incentive for the development of domestic production, devaluation of the ruble (within reasonable limits) is again a big plus for the economy.

I agree, and absolutely (+)

[xan]

Quote: atalef

Tomorrow (as an example) oil prices will collapse, what will be the consequences?

Well, you give, you need to think about the house, in general it is not clear what it is worth. Although it is clear - in the American diaspora.
You would have Russian problems for the Jews-you would have gone awry from happiness.

Quote: atalef

The only thing that is good in your comments is your personal dreams, you are not friends with the facts; a priori

Jew, look ahead and try to draw conclusions, America’s Islamists support your support, and you have state idiots who believe that it is in Jewish interests. Although America’s support must be worked out, this is understandable, there are no altruists there.
Continue to be friends with facts, wars and terrorist attacks and your great-grandchildren will be enough, if Israel will survive at all.

[pogis]

Duck Georgians were taught and armed by Amers and Jews (taught PMCs)! How did it end ?! If they had taught and armed Chechnya in the beginning of the 90’s, I’m afraid the RA wouldn’t even have reached Grozny in the 1994!

[Pimply]

You forgot Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Turks, etc. About 2000 people passed normal training among Georgians.

[pogis]

Everything could have been solved in the first 12 hours! Blow up the Roksky tunnel and that's it! 100 people behind the eyes would have been! But this did not happen. I will paraphrase the famous hockey player "Georgians crap!" Just like their teachers! I mean that even a professor under certain conditions will not be able to get from his students a solid knowledge of the table of logarithms!

[Pimply]

In words, this is easy to do. In practice, there were too many obstacles.

[aksakal]

Quote: atalef

Of course, and absolutely logical, after 5 lost wars, you can understand that it's time to change horses

- changed and the flag in his hands. May he be happy in the state of Somalia, the attainment of which came under the wise guidance of the States

Quote: atalef

Means it was necessary to train appropriately or not to get involved with morons

- I partially agree. Egyptians are not Vietnamese. Although they say there are no bad students, in this case, the students just got caught "phenomenal"

Quote: atalef

Prospects are not visible and no one knows how it will end, even if Assad wins. I would even say that after the war the problems only begin

- only if you will arrange these problems in the form of sabotage or open war, to which the S-300 is planned to be delivered in response to Syria. With Russian specialists. But if so, then I advise you to listen to your own personalities - the Soviet pilots may have lost one battle, more like reconnaissance in real combat, then the conscientious anti-aircraft gunners in that war were very up to the mark, which your genetic makeups perfectly remember level

Quote: atalef

so simple ? And what goals did Afghanistan achieve?

- 10 years + another three years of Najibullah’s reign of the pro-Soviet regime. For 13 years, there has been no talk of any bases and missile deployments from NATO in Afagn. Goals achieved.

Quote: atalef

It doesn’t. There is no influence, and the Syrians will remain Syrians 9 as the Egyptians in their time). Putin is the only thing that (maybe) will be able to keep Assad, but to clear the BV-certainly not.

[aksakal]

- throughout the BV region - Putin does not set such a goal. And the situation around Syria, including Syria itself, which is lively, adequate and not somalized, without inter-confessional mass slaughter, will be ruined. Personally for Assad - Russia did not set such a goal. Assad bet on Assad’s victory in this war against rabble, and about Assad’s victory in fair elections after VICTORY over rabble - this is Assad’s problem. The elections will lose - well, the fool with him, the main thing is Syria, who is living in an unsomalized and adequate way. According to the terms of the CTO, if there is no interference from other countries, then the end of this year or the beginning of the next. If strong countries intervene in the form of direct intervention, then there will still be a CTO, only the terms are different and there will be more victims.

Quote: atalef

more about this in detail. What are the goals?

- in the ultimatum of the USSR, Gold Meir contained a little bit - to cease hostilities and withdraw troops beyond the Suez Canal (I don’t remember, there was a specific line there). Israel has done this. The goals are achieved without a big war. This was my post. You will not call a couple of clashes between the Soviet and Israeli military even a small local war, right?

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

throughout the BV region - Putin does not set such a goal. And the situation around Syria, including Syria itself, which is lively, adequate and not somalized, without inter-confessional mass slaughter, will be ruined.

Interfaith difference there will be for many - many years. Do not tell me. You probably only saw the living Arabs in the picture, and you certainly don’t have a clue about the mentality

Quote: aksakal

and about Assad’s victory in fair elections after VICTORY over rabble - this is Assad’s problem

you are mistaken, this is the problem of Russia (and not only)

Quote: aksakal

in the ultimatum of the USSR, Gold Meir contained a little - to cease hostilities and withdraw troops beyond the Suez Canal

This was enough for us, Cairo was not going to take anyone. After all, the USSR did not demand that Sinai be returned and returned to the borders. The ultimatum recorded the status quo losing Egypt in the war and the loss of Sinai.

Quote: aksakal

Goals achieved without a big war

What kind ? The loss by Egypt of Sinai, Syria - the Golan Heights, Jordan, the West Bank and Jerusalem.
Maybe that's why Egypt escaped from the USSR, a couple more of such goals achieved and nothing would have remained from Egypt

Quote: aksakal

You will not call a couple of clashes between the Soviet and Israeli military even a small local war, right?

You probably forgot, the USSR did not fight with Israel. You would have climbed, probably you would run into the States. Or think the USSR because of the Arabs would go to the 3rd world?

[aksakal]

Quote: atalef

Interfaith difference there will be for many - many years. Do not tell me. You probably only saw the living Arabs in the picture, and you certainly don’t have a clue about the mentality

- It was not specifically in Syria, it will not be in the case of Assad’s victory. In case of a victory, rabble will be necessary.

Quote: atalef

you are mistaken, this is the problem of Russia (and not only)

- if you are about the case of Assad's loss in fair elections in living Syria, in which the CTO regime was introduced and the establishment of a peaceful life began, although such a loss is even theoretically unlikely (any nation loves the winners. "Winners are not judged!" - Catherine the Great about Suvorov, this must be knocked out on a huge wall in huge letters), then nothing terrible will happen - all the same on honest elections in Syria will come an adequate politician who has nothing against Russia. And with Tartus in Russia will be decided one way or another. I repeat, Russia did not harness specifically for Assad, Russia harnessed that Syria that was two years ago and which was still alive. In which there were and coexisted peacefully representatives of a dozen denominations and even Jews, and in which no one even touched the Jews. The rest - sorry, just your fiction.

Quote: atalef

This was enough for us, Cairo was not going to take anyone. After all, the USSR did not demand that Sinai be returned and returned to the borders. The ultimatum recorded the status quo losing Egypt in the war and the loss of Sinai.

- No, it was not enough. Cairo was a specific goal, and the war was launched at the request of those who controlled Suez, over whom Egypt wanted the force of territorial location and had every right to establish control. You didn’t take Cairo (now you can say anything), Suez agreed with Egpt about Suez, thanks to the USSR, he got some options from Suez, and there were some options for Aswan. So I stand on my own - the goals are reached! The way Egypt thanked for all this is on Egpt's conscience. Such things do not go without consequences, which we now see in the example of Egypt itself! Egypt, somalization is coming for your soul!

Quote: atalef

You probably forgot, the USSR did not fight with Israel. You would have climbed, probably you would run into the States. Or think the USSR because of the Arabs would go to the 3rd world?

- I ask you again not to poke around, but simply to substantiate that Israel "was not frightened", but simply "thought about peace in the whole world and only because of that it turned its troops down."

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

Cairo you did not take

And they were not going to. (By the way, Tbilisi didn’t take the same thing, and this is a fact. Of course you will convince me that you didn’t intend to, but I will answer you with your words)

Quote: aksakal

(now you can say anything)

Quote: aksakal

Suez - we agreed with Egpt about Suez, thanks to the USSR, he got some options from Suez, and there were some options for Aswan

What fragments of phrases, More specifically you can, Maybe you are talking about the Aswan Dam, which the USSR built (for its grandmothers), but didn’t get the money?

Quote: aksakal

What things do not go without consequences, which we now see in the example of Egypt

The consequences were not long in coming. 9 years have passed), and of course. what is in Egypt. only because he threw the USSR. only the Soviet Union collapsed, but for some reason Egypt is not

Quote: aksakal

Egypt, somalization is coming for your soul!

It will strike, we will fight this. In general, troubles must be experienced as they arrive. Well, Syria, of course, this will not affect everything, because Mubarak is a brake, he left the government (without killing his own people), Assad has already put a steeper 80t, and believe me not the last ten thousand.

Quote: aksakal

I ask you not to poke again

I really apologize (honestly) just in Hebrew there is no appeal to YOU, I’m used to it. I apologize, did not want to offend.

Quote: aksakal

but simply to justify that Israel "was not afraid", but simply "thought about peace in the whole world and only because of this turned its troops down"

No, we are not soft and fluffy (and we won’t, otherwise we won’t survive here), but we DECLARED THE WAR, we were attacked. therefore, now to all these Egyptians, Syrians. Palestinians, Lebanese and Jordanians have nothing to wind up and scream about aggressive Israel and ask their big brother to stand up for the poor, the unfortunate and the wretched.
Let them continue to hate, hate the strong. on the weak they wipe their feet.

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

changed and the flag in his hands. May he be happy in the state of Somalia,

strange, did not think that hundreds of thousands of Russians have a rest in Somalia

Quote: aksakal

Although they say there are no bad students, in this case, the students just got caught "phenomenal"

apparently the same thing with the teachers was not all right. because the Syrians walked the same way in their disciples with the same success.

Quote: aksakal

only if you will arrange these problems in the form of sabotage or open war, to which the S-300 is planned to be delivered in response to Syria.

Strange, s-300 - a remedy for all problems? How is the question that can counter the S-300, well undercover work and based on intelligence, a lone missile that destroys the radar?

Quote: aksakal

But if so, then I advise you to listen to your own nerves

nor shaking. as it used to be worse. Result to remind?

Quote: aksakal

then the conspiratorial anti-aircraft gunners in that war were very high, as your genetic architects perfectly remember

What are you talking about? Let me remind you of June 22? neither everything was successful like that. I wonder what would you say to the Germans about the first 3 years of the war? To a question about genetic memory /

Quote: aksakal

10 years + another three years of Najibullah’s reign of the pro-Soviet regime.

Tell Shkolota. And I will by chance remind you of how they went out that they left a nadzhibul hanging on a post. By the way, Egypt has been under the states for 35 years and, no matter how, strive to get rid of this yoke.

Quote: aksakal

For 13 years, there has been no talk of any bases and missile deployments from NATO in Afagn. Goals achieved

In the aul (respected aksakal), such tales probably skip to URA

[aksakal]

Quote: atalef

strange, did not think that hundreds of thousands of Russians have a rest in Somalia

- in this amount they no longer rest. And a tendency to further decrease. And stable.

Quote: atalef

apparently the same thing with the teachers was not all right. because the Syrians walked the same way in their disciples with the same success.

- the successes of the Syrians by any more in that war. Where did the conscience get an absolutely lively Israeli tank with secret dynamic protection at that time? At first they could not understand why the old Sherman did not break through the T-72. Didn’t the Syrian warriors work like that? It’s not easy to get a living tank from an enemy fighting against you. The Germans for the entire war during the years of the Second World War were not able to get live Katyusha. This is in contrast to the opposite case, when in Egypt, in almost greenhouse conditions, the Israelis steal the latest conscience radar. So do not compare the Syrians and the Egyptians.
I posted below - the Egyptians fought in such a way that it would be better not to fight at all. Just after the battle in SABZH, it was the Egyptians who got drunk from joy to the screeching of a pig, the Jews were not so happy. Because the victory is not entirely fair - the Egyptians also leaked all the information to the Israeli intelligence. Mubarak himself confirms. Better an enemy than such an "ally"

Quote: atalef

What are you talking about? Let me remind you of June 22? neither everything was successful like that. I wonder what would you say to the Germans about the first 3 years of the war? To a question about genetic memory /

Russians remember. We remember. It is. And if Germany begins to become excessively militarized, but it will greatly strain Russia. Again - genetic, I see nothing shameful and funny about this. I do not like the slanting look of the Kalmyk - a descendant of the Dzungars. Some goosebumps. So what? What is there to deny or laugh at?

Quote: atalef

Tell Shkolota. And I will by chance remind you of how they went out that they left a nadzhibul hanging on a post. By the way, Egypt has been under the states for 35 years and, no matter how, strive to get rid of this yoke.

- Najibullah lasted three years! Three years! No need to just lie:

Quote: atalef

Najibulu dangling on a pillar.

- three years! And it crashed just because he didn’t have elementary fuels and lubricants! A couple of thousand tons of diesel fuel and gasoline - and your Taliban with packs would still rest. But the Taliban had everything thanks to the packs! This is Gorbachev’s direct fault, but more on that to the next branch, where we all signed up under the appeal of Gorbachev’s recall of his award.

Quote: atalef

In the aul (respected aksakal), such tales probably skip to URA

- And you would not be rude, but would substantiate this point. Would set forth your version of the reasons for the entry of a limited contingent of Soviet forces in Afagnistan and your version of the objectives of this input. And so - rudeness. I'm not going down yet, I'm waiting for your version.

[atalef]

Quote: aksakal

in this amount they no longer rest. And a tendency to further decrease. And stable.

Well, just without fairy tales. There was a recession (at the beginning of the mess) they are now catching up.

Quote: aksakal

- the Syrians have any more successes in that war

we somehow do not have the same understanding of the word success. probably then Hitler (in your opinion, he was very successful and won the war)

Quote: aksakal

Where did the conscience turn out to be an absolutely lively Israeli tank with secret dynamic protection at that time?

Only one ? Well, of course, one Israeli tank will draw more than 1000 captured Soviet tanks, weapons, etc. captured by Israel. Still heavy armored personnel carriers based on Owls. tanks are being made.
Although if you think that one Israeli tank is cooler. than all that. what we captured - I won’t persuade you

Quote: aksakal

It’s not easy to get a living tank from an enemy fighting against you. The Germans for the entire war during the years of the Second World War were not able to get live Katyusha.

Aksakal, do not be like saxaul (it is as dense as an oak tree)

Quote: aksakal

So do not compare the Syrians and the Egyptians.

And I do not compare. The Egyptians are smarter - Sinai have long been given back. and the Golan - I went fishing 2 weeks ago

Quote: aksakal

Najibullah lasted three years! Three years! No need to just lie:

in the embassy (I don’t remember which country was sitting out) then they still pulled it out and hung it. We’ll be accurate. or all the achievements of the USSR in Afghanistan are 17t dead and 3 years of Najibula. Well, I say we have different understandings of the words SUCCESS, Victory, etc.

Quote: aksakal

three years! And it crashed just because he didn’t have elementary fuels and lubricants!

And what a gasoline was to put in vain. This is so for laughs.
He collapsed because the rope was cut off. on which he hung out.

Quote: aksakal

A couple of thousand tons of diesel fuel and gasoline - and your Taliban with packs would still rest

That's how they betray friends. Diesel fuel is more expensive. Assad will throw the same.

Quote: aksakal

and you would not be rude, but would substantiate this point. Would set out your version of the reasons for the entry of a limited contingent of Soviet forces in Afagnistan

There’s nothing to justify. The moronic process of the old senility. They thought Ameri would put rockets there - so many lives and attendants were locked up on Afghanistan that the missile defense would be 10 times cheaper. Let Amer with their missiles tame the Afghans, and the USSR would simply chuckle and arm the Mujahideen against the States. But the CPSU Central Committee is wise as always. Except coffins. seething grandmothers and hatred of the Afghans - the USSR did not bring anything

[i.xxx-1971]

The lack of an alternative to Gazprom’s interests and the absence of mattress puppets in Syria and, in the future, in Iran.

[i.xxx-1971]

In Afghanistan, we could not enter then. There was a certain political situation. In general, geopolitics, if properly understood at a certain point in time, can change world history. Why did the US get there after us, do they want a second Vietnam or is heroin over? Do not judge rashly about what you do not understand.

[berimor]

He didn’t play a damn thing. Yes, he flew by, yes he shot, but ... he never participated in combat operations in the maneuverable combat, this is not his task. At a speed of 2400, it makes a U-turn at an altitude of 20000 m without throttling the engines with a radius of 82 km., And with an increase in bank (in order to reduce the radius) it breaks from this height !!! If you do not want to look stupid, you do not need to say something that you can’t imagine. And in battle at medium and especially at low altitudes, this is a flying barn. He even has restrictions on supersonic flight at these altitudes, since there is a high probability of burning turbine blades. Once again I assert as a specialist - this aircraft is not intended for maneuverable combat. By the way, he has restrictions on some aerobatics.

[ed65b]

And that the Jews have gained some experience in modern air battles? fly like jackals bomb. In complete impunity. Who have they been fighting with lately? so do not lower our flyers below the plinus. To converge now in a real battle will definitely extinguish the Jews.

[berimor]

The MiG-25 is not intended for such maneuverable battles in a confined space !!! He has max. overload on weapons - 4g. This interceptor is designed primarily to intercept high-altitude high-speed targets. It is too heavy for maneuverable battles (over 35 tons). And the fact that our pilots showed themselves not at their best there is not their fault, but the inertia, stereotyped and obsession of our high leaders on flight safety at any cost, up to the widespread simplification in combat training. After a business trip in Egypt and Syria, I constantly fought with the command, but there was an answer to everything: "I'd rather get a reprimand for failure to fulfill the plan and simplify flight tasks (which is unlikely) than they'll remove me for the premise of a flight accident, or even less for a disaster." ... Hence, they gradually forgot how to think flexibly tactically when planning exercises, trainings, etc. Well, the pilots, accordingly, have forgotten how to work with full load and master modern combat skills. By the way, at the beginning of the Second World War, our pilots suffered the same.

[aksakal]

Quote: berimor

After a business trip in Egypt and Syria, I constantly fought with the command, but there was an answer to everything: "I'd rather get a reprimand for failure to fulfill the plan and simplify flight tasks (which is unlikely) than they'll remove me for the premise of a flight accident, or even less for a disaster." ... Hence, they gradually forgot how to think flexibly tactically when planning exercises, trainings, etc. Well, and the pilots, accordingly, have forgotten how to work at full load and master modern combat skills. By the way, at the beginning of the Second World War, our pilots suffered the same.

- is logical. Together with poor preparation of the battle, with failures in work in the field of intelligence, excessive trust in the Egyptian comrades, who were not comrades at all then, as well as a little overconfidence of the Soviet pilots (forgive them for this weakness, this is characteristic of the military, not for long who fought for the present, but trained a lot at the training grounds) predetermined the outcome that we have in fact. Just need to learn some lessons. And there is no need to be very upset - if you raise the archive data of the Second World War and carefully consider the mass of air battles of those times, we will find that Soviet pilots were far from victorious in all battles. There were even very weak battles, when there were fewer Germans, and there were more of our pilots, and there were even aces among our pilots, and the battle ended with the Germans winning. In one of these fights, even the famous Pokryshkin lost his legs. To deny such local defeats is stupid, to achieve victories right in every battle is perfectionism, it is better to focus on a common victory, one for all, but we will decide on the price.

[berimor]

Pokryshkin never lost his legs, what nonsense !!!!

[meandr51]

There were Vietnamese. These are not Arabs. They fought well themselves, and competently interacted with ours. Well, the situation in the leadership of the Soviet Armed Forces was more normal. In general, you should not give too much attention to a small episode. If the conflict widened, the Soviet Air Force would have shown its strengths. Of course, after eliminating lazy people and fools from the leadership. War clears the army.

[Nayhas]

"1. The Israeli Air Force had the opportunity to DEFINITELY study the MiG-21 fighter." - history repeats itself, the US Air Force has experience of training air battles with almost all fighters of the Russian Air Force, our pilots have no practice in countering US fighters ...

[Argon]

Under the people's rule MiG-21 with F-5 in the suburbs 15 fights 14: 1 in favor of "Tiger".

[meandr51]

Can I link?

[JonnyT]

There are no invincibles, Everyone has and will have victories and defeats .....
The topic is interesting, it is a pity that there is no information about it in open sources ....

[fzr1000]

A look at events from the Israeli side

http://thelib.ru/books/okorokov_aleksandr/sekretnye_voyny_sovetskogo_soyuza-read
-8.html

A look at the events from the Soviet side, there is generally a lot of information about 1973.

http://thelib.ru/books/okorokov_aleksandr/sekretnye_voyny_sovetskogo_soyuza-read
-8.html


The conclusion is simple:
It was necessary to fight on MiG 25 and the result would be sad for the Israeli Air Force.

I still did not quite understand from this material why ours could launch air strikes on Israeli cities, but they didn’t, and the Jews did not hesitate to bomb Damascus, etc.

Well, Sadat, frightened by America, “surrendered” all the successes won with such blood.

[fzr1000]

Mistake by reference look at events from the Israeli side
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/attrition_war3.htm

[Toit]

I’m wondering why they messed that up?
Not that it’s hot or cold for me, but still.

[Was mammoth]

He put a plus, a minus popped up

[viktorR]

When this happens, it means that someone clicked on the minus before you, you just didn’t refresh the page after that. Roughly speaking, when you read the article, someone minded Toit to -2, and when you clicked on plus, 1 was added to the rating of his comment and it turned out that the rating became -1. and the rating for this comment was updated (for you) after your click

[dema46]

do you have, that, problems with potency begin from someone’s drawbacks? so here are a kind of people ...

[Tourist Breakfast]

do you have, that, problems with potency begin from someone’s drawbacks? so here are a kind of people ...

I still didn't care. But it turns out when you get to the skull, then you are limited by the number of kamenty per day.
So you argue, argue with someone, but here at the most interesting place bam and that's all ... Pichalka :( But I have more time at work!

[El13]

Put a plus sign as a sabotage - well work suffers

[Toit]

Quote: dema46

do you have, that, problems with potency begin from someone’s drawbacks? so here are a kind of people ..

Well, why so soon, I just did not understand why, so I asked.

[Toit]

Quote: fzr1000

Well, Sadat, frightened by America, “surrendered” all the successes won with such blood.

can be more detailed, I thought that he passed because of the landing of the Israilites in Africa, and the construction of four pontoon bridges.

[fzr1000]

I'm too lazy to read the links that I gave above. It is unlikely that only 4 bridges could scare him at that moment. I'm not going to argue anymore.

[Scoun]

Quote: Toit

I thought that he passed for a reason

In the Apollon video, there is a phrase that Kissinger offered Sadat $ 3 billion a year and he agreed .. Sadat is a simple traitor.

[Anton Karpenko]

It is a pity there were no S-300s in Egypt at that time.

[Tourist Breakfast]

It is a pity there were no S-300s in Egypt at that time.

Just air defense in Egypt was enough, and the best and most dense at that time. In addition, staffed by Soviet advisers and staff.

[aksakal]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

missing, and the best and most dense at that time. In addition, staffed by Soviet advisers and staff.

- And it was they, the Soviet anti-aircraft gunners, who, unlike the Soviet pilots who were not at the highest level, gave a good light to the Israeli pilots. Just from the heart. bruised - even according to the subject, where it is greatly understated, impressive ... Were not puzzled by the question - why do the Israelis start fussing so much with a pale look when the phrase "S-300 delivery with Russian specialists" sounds? Genetic memory eptit Incidentally, I served in such a unit, there were already S-200s at my service, but the unit’s museum has a history of participation in that war. They just bruised a bunch - I personally saw it in the museum. part of the Order of the Red Banner for this participation.

[Tourist Breakfast]

What are these smiles for? There, people died, among other things, and Soviet anti-aircraft gunners as well.

[aksakal]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

What are these smiles for? There, people died, among other things, and Soviet anti-aircraft gunners as well.

- I agree, not quite out of place. Consider them removed.

[sivuch]

Not really, of course. Let's say there were no Krugs, the S-200 - moreover, it wasn’t very good with ACS either, but if you compare it with other Middle Eastern wars and, first of all, 82 years old, yes, modern and dense

[fzr1000]

Egypt Air Defense Account - Air Force Israel went in a completely different direction when Arrow and C 75 appeared there.

[Tourist Breakfast]

Egypt at that time already had S-75s. The arrival of S-125 changed the alignment.

[fzr1000]

I apologize, yes C 125.

[Dima190579]

When you fight with a strong enemy it is always only good. He is always an enemy. A weak enemy relaxes and forces pride. And pride leads to defeat. Eternal memory to HEROES.
The very word blow is an interesting "u dar" after the blow if you resist you get the strength of the enemy.
Remember the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR 1941-1945. What was the army in 1941 and what became 1945 only this victory went dearly. I am convinced that if you have to fight with the enemy, then he must be strong. A weak enemy will not attack.

[derk365]

The meaning of what was said was that all prohibitions and restrictions on pilotage and combat maneuver were lifted. We had to start aerial training with a clean slate and be guided in it by our common sense, and not by a foreign conscience. The general urged us to believe in our own instincts and intuitions, and he himself pledged to believe in our common good fortune.

In the 80s I lived in the Crimea, in the village of Bagerovo, where the fighter regiment of Mig-21 was located. I spoke with the officers. They said that after this incident the preparations moved to a different plane, ALL actions and maneuvers were allowed.

[berimor]

Nichrome! Yes, conferences, gatherings, an exchange of experience first went, and after a year everyone chatted and forgot.

[meandr51]

I believe. Only heavy war teaches Russians. And then they begin to "teach" everyone.

[Apollo]

No comments

[wax]

For beaten, they give two unbeaten. Leadership mistakes: the Israelis took it seriously, ours - from the middle to half (you can’t go there, then you can’t, etc.). If you got involved in a battle, then under the same guidance and with a focus to lead him to the defeat of the enemy in the air.

[creak]

The thesis that we did not have the opportunity to study the Phantom seems quite controversial. By 1970, a war had been going on in Vietnam for 5 years, in which Soviet troops also took part. The Americans, along with other aircraft, used Phantoms. Why this experience was not used in preparing our pilots for military operations in Egypt — only the leadership of the USSR Ministry of Defense knew this.
But it is not necessary to step on the same rake every time.
As for the links, the question of the participation of our troops in the hostilities in Egypt is covered in sufficient detail and professionally on the website www.hubara-rus.ru
I happened to serve in this country in 1969-72.

[berimor]

Greetings to the Russian habir! Health and health again! I was there in 1970-1971, and then in 1973 in Syria.

[meandr51]

I believe that the Israeli Air Force at that time was ahead of other countries in its tactical development. Well, sort of like a Luftwaffe at one time. After all, they fought, not pants in the classes sat out. But ours are learning fast. When they are at war.

[vkusniikorj]

it was not OUR war! to give for the brought down Jew, Hero, it was necessary to think of such ours died, it's a pity of course, but these losses taught something, although it was necessary to learn earlier. If more often they shouted not "glory to the Heroes" , and "shame on idiots" there would be more sense.

[yanus]

The moral of this fable is as follows - "wall to wall" to fight is futile. The one who prepares and plans wins. If two sides accidentally "bump" into each other, the result is often unpredictable.
At least my grandfather, who was "visiting" in Syria, says that the Arabs are so-so fighters. There are problems with mentality, education, and motivation. But if you correctly prepare the operation and properly coordinate the conduct, then there are results.
One of the Syrian pilots did shoot down a couple of Israeli planes. I made special preparations, flew towards the sea, flew from there between some mountains (I'm not friendly with the geography there, sorry) and in several sorties I watched these two fighters. Of course, the Israelis after a while "closed the shop."
So this is the problem of the Arabs and partly our military - they are chronically unwilling or unable to plan non-standard actions. And attacks "head on" can only work with multiple technical and quantitative superiority.

[atalef]

Quote: yanus

One of the Syrian pilots shot down a couple of Israeli aircraft.

but from here - Stirlitz, I’ll ask for more details

Quote: yanus

, flew towards the sea, flew from there between some mountains (I’m unfriendly with geography there, excuse me)

Forgiven since there are no mountains on the coast.

[creak]

With proper leadership and proper motivation, both Syrians and Egyptians can fight. This is evidenced by the results of the initial stage of the war of 1973. But at the second stage of the operation A. Sadat was guided not by military but by political considerations.

[Baboon]

I don’t even know if you like it or not. It's just to take the Battle of Sinai, my opinion is that the Egyptians simply dishonored Soviet equipment.

[iulai]

I never tire of repeating - this again proves the stupidity of our generals! Whose mind is in huge bellies, and in the head -myakina! Why did not order our designers for drones 20 years ago? Soon drones will bring down our pilots.

[xan]

Quote: iulai

Soon drones will bring down our pilots.

Drones against Aborigines are good.
With a serious adversary, the use of drones is seriously limited.

[Santa Fe]

Quote: iulai

Why did not order our designers for drones 20 years ago?

Tu-123 "Hawk", USSR, 1964 year - supersonic long-range unmanned reconnaissance (UAV) manufactured by Tupolev Design Bureau. Intended for photo and radio reconnaissance at ranges up to 3200 km. Built on the basis of an experimental unmanned attack aircraft Tu-121. Another designation: DBR-1 (long-range unmanned reconnaissance).

Manufactured by 52 machines. The system was in service with the Air Force reconnaissance units stationed in the western border military districts until the year 1979.


Tu-143 Flight, USSR, 1982 year - reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). Designed for tactical reconnaissance in the front line at a depth of 60-70 km by photographing and television reconnaissance of area targets and individual routes, as well as monitoring the radiation situation along the flight route.
Manufactured by 950 UAV. Used in Afghanistan and the Lebanon War 1982

Wingspan - 2,24 m
Length - 8,06 m
Height - 1,545 m
Wing area - 2,90 m²
Weight - 1230 kg
Engine type - TRD TRZ-117
Thrust - 1 × 640 kgf
Accelerator - SPRD-251
Cruising speed - 950 km / h
Practical range - 180 km
Flight time - 13 min
Practical ceiling - 1000 m
Minimum flight altitude - 10 m

At the end of the flight, the Tu-143 was deployed according to the program and returned back to the landing zone, where, after stopping the engine and the "slide" maneuver, landing was carried out using a parachute-jet system and landing gear.

[Forest]

Strange - our pilots arrive — the enemy knows, ours are luring the Israelis away, our people need help — the planes do not rise.
It remains to conclude.

[xan]

Come on, and so it is clear that this is not our war. And the weapons had to be given for the loot.
Somehow, our last union cones did not think so, and not about that.

[aksakal]

Quote: Forest

It’s strange — our pilots arrive — the enemy knows, ours are luring the Israelis away, our people need help — planes do not rise. It remains to be concluded.

this also played a role. Rats (traitors) in the ranks of the Egyptians were specific, they poured information into their own enemies specifically. Especially for our pilots and anti-aircraft gunners. Indirect confirmation - I refer to the memoirs of Mubarak, who got the end he deserved. In those memoirs, Mubarak CONCRETELY admitted that the Egyptian pilots themselves helped the Israelis as much as they could (!!!!!), and when exactly this battle, which was not entirely successful for conscientious pilots, took place, then all the Egyptian pilots (Mubarak is an Egyptian pilot, "fought" in that war, if you can call it the word "fought" ) to celebrate, they got drunk like pigs and for three days were in this state, there were even states of falling into a coma from drinking. Mubarak himself reflected this in his memoirs. It is strange that the Israelis themselves were not so happy - they felt that that "victory" had been achieved in a not entirely honest way. Well, no matter what - the Soviet pilots, whatever they conceive, whatever the operation - everything is past and the enemy knows everything, while the Soviet ones know nothing about the protinik. So if the Egyptians themselves fought against the Soviets on the side of the Jews, unless the Soviet pilots themselves did not shoot, what result could there be?

[Pimply]

Quote: aksakal

It is strange that the Israelis themselves were not so happy - they felt that that "victory" was not entirely honest.

It is a question of respect for the enemy, not the "honesty" or "dishonesty" of victory. At the first victories at sea, the commanders of the ships, for example, ordered not to tie the traditional mop to the mast - a symbol of victory over the enemy. Out of respect for the dead enemy.

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

It is a question of respect for the enemy, not the "honesty" or "dishonesty" of victory. At the first victories at sea, the commanders of the ships, for example, ordered not to tie the traditional mop to the mast - a symbol of victory over the enemy. Out of respect for the dead enemy.

- then there is no explanation for such a "piggy" behavior of the Egyptians. Why should they be so happy? Those pilots tried to fight for them, to defend their land, and they were so happy about their local loss that they drank for three days - is there an explanation for this? Isn't it because it was a special operation by more Egyptians than Israelis? In the furnace of such allies, with such allies and enemies are not necessary

[Pimply]

The fact that the Soviet advisers treated them very dismissively means that "Arabs simply do not know how to fight." And when the Soviet pilots were knocked down, the Arabs had a return reason to poke a finger at the Soviet pilots.

So do not come up with conspiracy theories.

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

The fact that the Soviet advisers treated them very dismissively means that "Arabs simply do not know how to fight." And when the Soviet pilots were knocked down, the Arabs had a return reason to poke a finger at the Soviet pilots.

- they fought for their land, it was possible to endure, especially since the facts of extremely inept hostilities (literally only "take-off and landing" were able to, in short, harmless partridges, by mistake stuffed with guns and missiles ), were. And when they poked their nose into it, it was necessary not to be offended, but to wind it around the CSS. The Vietnamese poked worse in their own mistakes, but they were not offended, but LEARNED. Memoirs of Ho Chi Minh read. The instructors came to teach you how to fight, and not to cultivate politeness and bowing, it was not their responsibility for sure!

Quote: Pimply

So do not come up with conspiracy theories.

- no conspiracy theories, only facts. We read at Mubarak how they got drunk, we read the subject and facts:

Quote: Forest

It’s strange — our pilots arrive — the enemy knows, ours are luring the Israelis away, our people need help — planes do not rise. It remains to be concluded.

- and everything grows together perfectly. Proud people, however, are caught Cowering Caucasians. They don’t know how to fly! They don’t know how to shoot either! But - EAGLES !!! And when they said that they were not eagles, they were so offended and began to help the enemy, so that they could poke a finger in response. For the sake of this and my own countryman, I’m not sorry to give! EAGLES - what else can you say!

[Pimply]

Quote: aksakal

Could it be because it was a special operation more than the Egyptians than the Israelis?

I’m talking about this phrase of yours.

[ed65b]

Right combat alert and pilots are sitting in the hangar drink coffee. Ours to them, you, oh, if it’s by car, and they say they’re here to sit there in the heat of the Jews, because you don’t see Jews.

[creak]

There was a leak of information, but the Israelis learned about the flights of Soviet pilots, first of all, by reading information from the screens of their radars in the Sinai. To obtain such information, there are radio-technical air defense forces.

[Forest]

There is an opinion: that not only in the ranks of the Egyptians, Israelis were helped by Jews from the USSR, who are in certain services.

[Pimply]

This is more of a myth. Those who were in responsible positions did not risk so much - they were under separate observation. As a fact, there were no arrests of "Israeli spies". Although in Israel, Soviet agents were caught several times. Although, unequivocally, someone was somewhere - the report of Khrushchev in 1956 the Israelis managed to get it. However, through Poland.

The fact is that, among other things, there was a ban on working against the USSR. In connection with the activity of Soviet intelligence in Israel, Mossad sought the right to "retaliation." However, intelligence on the territory of the USSR was prohibited to its agents by direct instruction of the Prime Minister Levi Eshkol. “A natural reaction to our espionage against Moscow will be an increase in state anti-Semitism in the USSR,” he said at meetings more than once. “And therefore, we must not only refrain from such espionage, but also constantly convince the Soviet leadership that we are not playing any double game behind him!”

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

there will be an increase in state anti-Semitism in the USSR,

Stop writing nonsense !!! Do you believe in it yourself?

[Pimply]

I’m just better than you know the story. Until a certain point in the USSR, work was severely limited.

[ultra]

This is a myth that the Jews themselves created and cultivate, if there were any isolated cases (I completely admit), then most likely they were connected with a specific person and you declare anti-Semitism in the USSR at the state level! (By the way, I did not minus you).

[Professor]

Unfortunately, this is far from a myth. At least take an interest in how a Jewish officer could get to serve in the Western Group of Forces in the 70s, or how in Leningrad they established the norm in graduate school for Jews. And there are hundreds of thousands of such examples. This was a common reason why 1000000 (one million) Jews left the BSSR at the earliest opportunity, and before 1991 they left with one suitcase and $ 50 dollars in their pocket, leaving everything in the memory of the former Motherland. And what is the case of doctors or the order of the beginning of 1943 of the Main Political Directorate of the Red Army "to reward ... Jews limited" ...
The entire wartime propaganda machine since 1942 was subordinate to A.S. Shcherbakov - the head of the Sovinformburo, a candidate for membership in the Politburo, 1st secretary of the Moscow City Committee and the Moscow City Committee and the secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks. He sent out an unspoken directive on the fronts: "To reward representatives of all nationalities, but Jews - limitedly." Front-line commanders, assessing the real situation differently from the apparatchik Shcherbakov, did not always strictly follow his instructions, as a result of which the number of Heroes of the Soviet Union among Jews reached 153. Nevertheless, pressure from the Central Committee apparatus led to non-recording of cases of heroism or to a significant delay in its recognition, when it was about soldiers of Jewish origin.
http://stories.pageforyou.ru/story.php?id=3780&id_auth=519
Celebrated "percentage rate"

[Forest]

They were not prescribed because they knew the consequences.
And they went because Israel needed working hands and "cannon fodder".
So if there weren’t this directive, all the heads of food stores and clerks would have got heroes).

[Professor]

Quote: Forest

So if there weren’t this directive, all the heads of food stores and clerks would have got heroes).

Do the scribes speak?
So the feat of Matrosov during the war years was repeated by four Jews, and Private Abram Levin laid his breast on the embrasure a year before Matrosov, on February 22, 1942, during the liberation of the Kalinin Region. He was awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the first degree posthumously ... after 15 years. Sergeant Tovier Rise repeated this and managed to stay alive, although he received 18 injuries. He was awarded the Order of Glory of the 3rd degree.

The feat of Nikolai Gastello was repeated by 14 Jewish pilots. The title of Hero was awarded only to two, and even then S.A. Kordonsky only in 1990 (!), Although the entire squadron was witnesses of his exploit on September 28, 1943. Four Jewish pilots made an air ram - the Hero was not given to any. Although Viktor Talalikhin, ramming a German plane in the sky near Moscow on August 7, 1941, the title of Hero was awarded literally the very next day.

[ultra]

Exactly the same examples can be given in relation to other people who were not Jews and their exploits were not appreciated at the time and such examples are in the sea! I can not say anything about the service in the PGW, but the fact that the officers were Jewish serving in the Strategic Rocket Forces in responsible posts is a fact, I have one such acquaintance who has a retired colonel, and this is much more responsible than serving in the Western Military Forces, I served in the PM as our political officer and the head of the outpost was Jews, the border with Turkey was in the eighties, and you say anti-Semitism at the state level. Regarding Shcherbakov so it could be a personal hostility, but it has nothing to do with state policy.

[Professor]

Quote: ultra

Exactly the same examples can be given in relation to other people who were not Jews and their exploits were not appreciated at the time and such examples are the sea!

No, not the sea. There were no instructions not to reward, say, Uzbeks or Armenians. There was a percentage rate in government, universities, etc. only in relation to Jews.

Quote: ultra

I can’t say anything about the service in the PGW, and the fact that Jewish officers served in the Strategic Rocket Forces in responsible posts is a fact that I have one such acquaintance who is a retired colonel, and this is much more responsible than the service in the GPG, I served in the PV the political commander and the head of the outpost were Jews, the border with Turkey was in the eighties, and you say anti-Semitism at the state level.

Oh yeah. In the ZakVO, Jews were not denied service, no one needed such happiness for nothing. In warm and fishy places like the GDR, this is a completely different matter. My mother in Dalyar (an air base in the ZakVO) at 4 o'clock in the morning took a queue for milk, at 7 a store opened and said "malaka net" and this was in the 70s in the USSR. Feed your children whatever you want. Transferring from ZakVO was for happiness.

Quote: ultra

.About Shcherbakov it could have been a personal dislike, but this has nothing to do with state policy.

"Doctors' case", the fight against "rootless cosmopolitanism" will we remember?

[ultra]

Leave idle talk! Give specific documents that limited the rights of Jews in the USSR! The case of doctors, and you don’t remember other cases, in those years there were many such "cases", but for some reason you mention only those that hurt the Jews, among the victims the most were precisely Russians, and in the government after the revolution, almost all key posts were occupied by Jews, but this is not a reason to shout about the genocide of the Russian by the Jews (although there are those who wish)!

[Professor]

Concrete documents would be if something like the Nuremberg trials were conducted over the CPSU. And so the old power was renamed and continued to rule without declassifying the archives of the CPSU and KP of the Union republics. Gebnya as it was and remained in power. Do they have to look for the truth and demand to present documents? A good example: The shooting of Polish officers in Katyn. How many years have lied, denied and hid. The time will come and the whole truth will become the property of the people.

[ultra]

Compared to the shooting of the Poles in Katyn, some restrictions on Jews are a prank, if the first were recognized, then there is no sense in hiding the second. And about who we have in power, who we have chosen and in power, let us in our country it's up to you.

[Professor]

Quote: ultra

Compared to the shooting of the Poles in Katyn, some restrictions on Jews are a prank, if the first was recognized, then there is no sense in hiding the second.

When all the archives will be declassified, including from the time of the Second World War (what have they been hiding for 70 years?) Then we’ll talk.

And as for who we have in power, whom those in power have chosen, in our country, let us decide for ourselves.

I will make an exception and speak out "on politics". But pathos is not necessary. You did not choose anyone, everyone was already selected there. And the fact that I did not take part in these "elections" was my personal decision.

[ultra]

Quote: professor

then we'll talk.

About what? About the "oppression" of Jews in the USSR? Even if they declassify and nothing of the kind will be there, you change your mind on this topic, this is already a kind of "fix" idea. Regarding the elections, where does the pathos, if I am not satisfied with the authorities go to the polls and vote for another, unlike some others, I have one passport and one Motherland (even if it sounds pretentious, as you may think), so I went to the polls, I go and will go.

[Professor]

Quote: ultra

Even if they declassify and nothing like that will be there

When they declassify then we will be convinced whether it is there or not. I really hope that they will not clean the archives. In the meantime, you can google State anti-Semitism in the USSR.

Quote: ultra

therefore I went to the polls, I go and I will go.

Your right. I don’t go to uncontested choices and don’t participate in such a circus.

[ultra]

Quote: professor

In the meantime, you can google State anti-Semitism in the USSR.

Well, if you "google" you can find a lot of "interesting" things that will be as far from reality as the Earth is from the Sun, but where are the non-alternative elections? It seems that we have an alternative basis, and if the candidate for whom I did not vote won, it does not mean that you have to shout at the top of your lungs that the elections were dishonest

[Professor]

Quote: ultra

if the candidate won for whom I did not vote, this does not mean that we must yell at the top of our ears that the elections were dishonest

Uncontested, not dishonest, and nothing more. I close the topic of politics.

[ultra]

Quote: professor

I close the topic of politics.

And you do not get sick!

[i.xxx-1971]

The Germans shot the Poles in Katyn; this is incomprehensible only to clinical idiots. Soon, the NKVD is also charged with the Holocaust.

[Baboon]

Professor
You directly revealed the conspiracy, a lot of people performed the same feats and were left without rewards. Not only were Jews not allowed. It’s the same as it is now on extremist Wahhabi sites that they humiliate Muslims a little, although sometimes people engage in criminal activity, he is not a Muslim, and this is because of religion that oppresses him. They are also looking everywhere for a world conspiracy.

[Baboon]

Professor
Let’s remember David Abramovich Dragunsky, they also didn’t give him life all the time, as you say?

[Forest]

Sorry, but after 6 million you can’t believe in everything else.

[i.xxx-1971]

The Lord loves everyone and the Jews too.

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

I’m just better than you know the story.

Everything is possible! Although history is largely subjective.

[meandr51]

But "anti-Semitism" is too much. Jews in full and partial in the leadership of the USSR have always had enough. What can we say about middle links. It would simply be a targeted operation specifically against Mossad. But Mossad did not want to receive in full from the KGB and the GRU. Different weight categories.

[Forest]

C'mon, we still have all the government all yours)

[sergosam]

Answered in 1982 in Syria, five zero.

[aksakal]

Quote: sergosam

Answered in 1982 in Syria, five zero.

- is it impossible to read more?

[Argon]

Yes, there wasn’t such a dry run, our Syrians were planning to fight, but again they became weak, the score was 2: 3 in Israel’s favor, if I’m not mistaken.

[xomaNN]

I wonder if there was an effective continuation of such air battles?

[Genady1976]

Air defense recouped for all.

[berimor]

From the side of our pilots - no

[Genady1976]

Our pilots shot down pieces of 10 only they can not tell us they died.
Russian wars are steeper than all the others and taken together.

[Yankuz]

I didn’t understand why this article was necessary at all ??? ...

[ed65b]

Cheto Jews lost their hearts. Do not be famously while quiet.

[Boricello]

Quote: Pimply

Lower the degree of pathos - this is ridiculous. Make a trap for Soviet pilots, you would extol their tactical find. Extend your fingers, not on the arrow.

No need to engage in demagogy ourselves. The article is interesting. And yes, the Israelites worked competently and highly professionally. The pluses include excellent intelligence (given the Egyptian bought and recruited military who poured all that is possible) and the wonderful training of pilots. It is a pity for the pilots of the USSR, but we must admit that in those conditions they could not do anything. When every step you take is drained, you can only minimize losses. No more.

[aksakal]

Quote: Boricello

No need to engage in demagogy ourselves. The article is interesting. And yes, the Israelites worked competently and highly professionally. The pluses include excellent intelligence (given the Egyptian bought and recruited military who poured all that is possible) and the wonderful training of pilots. It is a pity for the pilots of the USSR, but we must admit that in those conditions they could not do anything. When every step you take is drained, you can only minimize losses. No more.

- A good resume, and we will stop on this.

[Tourist Breakfast]

The pluses include excellent intelligence (given the Egyptian bought and recruited military who poured all that is possible) and the wonderful training of pilots. It is a pity for the pilots of the USSR, but we must admit that in those conditions they could not do anything. When every step you take is drained, you can only minimize losses. No more.

What are you speaking about? What other recruited military are Egypt? No agent will report the departure of enemy aircraft faster than search radars.

[aksakal]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

What are you speaking about? What other recruited military are Egypt? No agent will report the departure of enemy aircraft faster than search radars.

- have you read the whole dispute? Have you read all the facts stated in this dispute? Dear, I will tell you a terrible secret - neither on the radars of that time, nor on the most modern radars, nor on the radars of the S-300 and even S-400 air defense systems, along with the scan and signatures of enemy aircraft, will never be displayed on the screen "no need to fly to intercept! This is - a trap! " And the Israelis did not fly out to intercept when the Soviets were preparing a trap - read the SABJ, watch the video posted by Apollo, read Mubarak's memoirs. I can also assure you (the members of the forum will condemn me for passing on secrets) - the inscriptions "no need to fly out to intercept! This is a trap!" will never appear on the radar displays of the created S-500! I will also reveal a secret - such information can only be obtained by intelligence. More precisely, Sadat had already established secret ties with the Americans, and the Soviet Politburo did not even know about it. The result is that ours are planning an operation in which they provoke the Israelis to take off to intercept, and they don’t even bother - well, they are bombing and bombing Israeli territory, we will endure. Later, they say, we'll win back. This means that they knew for sure that it was a provocation and did not want to enter the battle on unfavorable terms. How could such information (top secret information !!! This is information about a direct special operation in detail!) Could get to the Jews? Through the radar? Are you seriously?

[Tourist Breakfast]

To begin with, in the period described, the president of Egypt was Nasser (Hero of the Soviet Union, by the way), but not Sadat.
The second - the Israelis used electronic intelligence, including intercepted the negotiations of Soviet pilots.
I won't even comment on the rest. Are there specific names for the "recruited Egyptian military"?

[meandr51]

Departures and their tactics are planned in advance. You can just call by phone. In the same way, Americans complained that in Vietnam, Vietcong and northerners received transaction data sometimes for half an hour. Without any radar.

[Marconi41]

The article is instructive! One must always remember that not so much victories are replenished with combat experience - as defeats. At that time, Soviet pilots had the illusion that they were the coolest of all. Sorry it was just an illusion. They did the right thing, which later brought our pilots out of there. It was necessary to disassemble this experience!

[creak]

Quote: berimor

Greetings to the Russian habir! Health and health again! I was there in 1970-1971, and then in 1973 in Syria.

Hello to you and my colleague and best wishes. There were times, and now moments.

[Boricello]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

What are you speaking about? What other recruited military are Egypt? No agent will report the departure of enemy aircraft faster than search radars.

Mr. Comrade Barin, do you generally understand the principle of collecting intelligence data and in general what is it about? If you know flight missions, routes, maps and composition ... then you can set a trap and nothing else !!!! Do you know what else I liked about the article? The fact that there is no arrogant bravado in it like "Yes, we could have them both then and now as Tuzik a heating pad!" Then they could not. Now it is not known, but with a hacky approach, we will not be able to. The enemy and the opponent must be respected and loved, then you can defeat him. By the way, gentlemen, Israelis, this also concerns you. And then you have recently also gone that you are super soldiers, invincible and legendary, and around one uncivilized person who can do nothing. The main mistake of those events was precisely that they underestimated the opponent and overestimated their own. And my thoughts .... now the time is coming ... that we must unite efforts in the fight against Allahakbar. This applies to everyone. And Israel, and Syria, And Russia, and Europe. Or we will die. A terrible time is coming.

[aksakal]

Quote: Boricello

. It concerns everyone. And Israel, and Syria, And Russia, and Europe. Or perish. A terrible time is coming.

- alas, Boricello, Allahakbar Allahakbaru is different for the Israelis and the West, but for our countries, the countries of Eurasia, there is no difference.
Well, firstly, the very phenomenon of radical Islamism is a product of the West. He was not before the introduction of the Limited Contingent of the Soviet Forces to Afghanistan. As a result, it was fostered by amers, the seeds were provided by the Saudis.
Now in BV there are two cultures of radical Islamism - loyal to the West by virtue of its birth and "wild". The wild is quite anti-American directed, but quite skillfully controlled by the West due to the mental limitations of the main part of the representatives of radical Islamism and with the help of various tools, primarily financial and through the special services.
So there can be no talk of any unification of efforts with Israel, and even more so with Europe as an integral part of the West in the fight against "Allah Akbar"! is an instrument of Western foreign policy. The proof is the bombing of Syria, synchronized with the attacks of Syrian militants. I had never thought about such a bundle, about ITS POSSIBILITIES! And here on you! By itself, radical Islamism is helpless without nourishment and support from very powerful countries.

[Tourist Breakfast]

Here are two pictures that are stronger than any words about "alahahbar":

[Professor]

This man (with a gray beard) is personally responsible for the death of the Russians
Maria Tagiltseva - 14 years
Evgenia Dorfman - 15 years
Raisa Nemirovskaya - 15 years
Julia Sklyanik - 15 years
Anna Kazachkova - 15 years
Katherine Castañada - 15 years
Irina Nepomnyashchaya - 16 years
Maryana Medvedenko - 16 years
Liana Sahakyan - 16 years
Marina Berkovskaya - 17 years
Simon Rudin - 17 years
Julia Nalimova - 16 years
Elena Nalimova - 18 years
Irina Osadchaya - 18 years
Alexey Lupalo - 17 years
Ilya Gutman - 19 years
Sergey Panchenko - 20 years
Roman Dzhanashvili - 21 year
Diaz Nurmanov - 21 year
Ian Bloom - Xnumx Years

[Forest]

Quote: Pimply

I’m just better than you know the story. Until a certain point in the USSR, work was severely limited.

There is no truth about anti-Semitism in a state where internationalism was an ideology to write simply stupid.

[Boricello]

Quote: aksakal

- alas, Boricello, Allahakbar Allahakbaru is different for the Israelis and the West, but for our countries, the countries of Eurasia, there is no difference.
Well, firstly, the very phenomenon of radical Islamism is a product of the West. He was not before the introduction of the Limited Contingent of the Soviet Forces to Afghanistan. As a result, it was fostered by amers, the seeds were provided by the Saudis.
Now in BV there are two cultures of radical Islamism - loyal to the West by virtue of its birth and "wild". The wild is quite anti-American directed, but quite skillfully controlled by the West due to the mental limitations of the main part of the representatives of radical Islamism and with the help of various tools, primarily financial and through the special services.
So there can be no talk of any unification of efforts with Israel, and even more so with Europe as an integral part of the West in the fight against "Allah Akbar"! is an instrument of Western foreign policy. The proof is the bombing of Syria, synchronized with the attacks of Syrian militants. I had never thought about such a bundle, about ITS POSSIBILITIES! And here on you! By itself, radical Islamism is helpless without nourishment and support from very powerful countries.

I agree completely, but with 1 reservation. Islamism is a wild and unbridled beast that anyway will someday bite off a lactating hand.

[Pancho]

Quote: datur

Hmm, and again, these Jewish myths about their God-chosen and invincibility !!!!!

There is no warrior worse than a frightened Jew.

[roskaz]

Well, our then at least one then shot down?

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Horde

specific sources of information for the article show where infa? followed the links nothing ...

Where and what did you expect to find? It is not customary in the USSR and Russia to advertise their failures; a similar topic is usually hushed up, disputed or discredited. I advise you to search in other available languages ​​- information car and a small cart. In extreme cases, Wikipedia.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Papakiko

At the same time, there are testimonies of witnesses, according to which Israeli search and rescue helicopters circled over the place of battle, did the “unbreakable” Hel Haavir suffer any losses?

There were paratroopers in helicopters, they were looking for ejected Soviet pilots, the USSR then denied its direct participation in the clashes, and capturing the Russian pilot and presenting it to television cameras was an opportunity to put the USSR in an awkward situation before the international community. One grandfather told me this 10 years ago, a retired major, my former neighbor, he was one of the paratroopers in one of the helicopters - and this was their order to find and capture the downed flyer. The calculation was that the Egyptians would be afraid to send helicopters and would search on land transport, and there was a real chance to get ahead of them.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: datur

Hmm, and again, these Jewish myths about their God-chosen and invincibility !!!!!

How did you get it all with your paranoid obscurantism about "Jewish God-chosenness", for 22 years of life in Israel and for 3+ years of service in IDF - I NEVER heard of any "God-chosenness" (babble of a marginal ultra-religious minority, like any other adequate a person - I don't take it seriously) and "invincibility" (Pain and then hammered into us - do not underestimate the enemy). For the first time, I heard about such nonsense on Russian-language forums from the Natsiks who had never seen a living Jew in their eyes.
O T K U D A
In s
B E R E T E
E T U
H W W B ??? !!!

[And Us Rat]

Quote: fzr1000

Israel, like, never obssera?

It happened once, from 6 to 8 on October 1973, and so much so that it is rumored that these 2 days hung special charges on several planes and kept them ready for take-off for a minute, but the 9 numbers all started to clear, the reservists gathered and sent offenders beat, but then suddenly the USSR and the Yusovtsy did not fit into the topic with their cries and resolutions on a ceasefire, because Golda was so angry for this fright that she really wanted all the participants in the attack in the city to roll up tightly. Like fascists in the 45.
And today ... you’ll not be especially frightened of a broken and experienced one, so that now you would also put bricks in the same way - it is necessary that China would probably attack Israel ...

[And Us Rat]

Quote: ed65b

And that the Jews have gained some experience in modern air battles? fly like jackals bomb. In complete impunity. Who have they been fighting with lately? so do not lower our flyers below the plinus. To converge now in a real battle will definitely extinguish the Jews.

1. Russian pilots annually gain an average of 60 hours. But at the same time, most pilots are experienced pilots, with the rank of major and higher, and lieutenants are allowed to steer once every three months, or even less often, and in Israel - over 300 hours a year PERFORMANCE.

2. H036 [2] - Russian small-sized aviation radar station with an active phased array, 2012 conducted 20 flights with AFAR test.
AFAR EL \ M-2035 - it has been regularly used in the Israeli Air Force for more than 8 years. In terms of avionics, electronics, electronic warfare and AWACS, Israel has overtaken France, Germany, Japan and is on par with the United States (Israel began to produce smart helmets on the F35). The level of air-to-air missiles that Israel produces and operates in the Russian Federation are just being developed.

What are you going to extinguish the cutest? Selective Russian obscenities? Learn materiel and do not flaunt your incompetence.

[Bersaglieri]

ELBIT on the "iron" - steers, it's true. By the way, what about the next F-15 upgrade?

[75 hammer]

The Israeli Air Force lost on its own data 33 "Phantom", 11 "Mirage", 53 "Skyhawk", six "Super Misters" and six helicopters. Of them, allegedly, only five cars were lost in air battles with Egyptian aircraft, all the others were shot down by ground defense. American data adds a bit to this loss - two more Phantoms, one Mirage and three Skyhawks. In addition, at least six "Phantoms" were written off due to damage. Arab-Soviet data provide at least 200 Israeli aircraft shot down only by ground defense. Arabs, by the way, sometimes claim that more than 400 aircraft of the Israeli Air Force were shot down (taking into account air battles), but, as the Red Army soldier Sukhov said, "this is unlikely."

[Bersaglieri]

Fine! Thanks for the stuff.

[Pacifist]

The general policy of the armed forces of Israel and the Air Force in particular is not to admit any losses until they poke their nose into irrefutable facts, but even then hell knows what explanations (birds / technical malfunctions / diarrhea / all the enemies / we are invincible because). This applies to all exceptional and their satellites. The favorite pastime of this company is not to recognize losses and appropriate other people's merits, as well as the right to decide for others how to live.

[raif]

too much extra text drawn over the ears of slogans such as "with a shield or on a shield," pathos. half can be thrown out safely. laziness began to read even

[Serge79]

As soon as there is a loss, so immediately "rumors and bans".
Beautiful victory of Israel!

[meandr51]

I am for even more "beautiful victories" of Israel. The more our physics gets cleaned, the better. In order not to relax. Only a constantly fighting army wins. She must go through defeat and take it seriously. So it was in 41-45, in the Korean and Vietnamese wars. If Israel did not exist, it would have to be organized. A very convenient sparring partner. Safe for the country as a whole and keeping it alert. The loss of several cars is a small episode in the war. But it allows you to take the necessary measures, including the cleaning of the headquarters. Our goal is to win the world war.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: meandr51

Our goal is to win the world war.

Not "ours", but rather yours. Riding on the battle couch. Well, just write, or something ...

By the way, "winning the world war" is difficult now - no one has canceled weapons of mass destruction

[victor50]

Liked!

[Serge79]

Rimon 20 and Medvedka are the best operations in the history of modern warfare. A brilliant victory over a stronger enemy!

[Rome]

I read all your comments and not one of them wrote that the country of Israel at that time was only 22 years old. You can imagine a tiny country that did not yet have a normal economy, not a military industry, etc., surrounded by enemies who are ready to tear this people apart like rabid dogs , and they managed to kick the ass not only of the Arab countries but also of such a powerful force as the USSR, I am simply amazed at their courage, the Creator clearly stands behind them, glory to this people.

[Lieutenant Colonel of the USSR Air Force in stock]

Quote: trenitron

An interesting article talk about. Well, let's try to make it out. The article indicates the first battle between Israeli and Soviet pilots, this is 25.06.70/4/20. An Israeli attack aircraft was hit. Now about what the article does not contain, but is available in open sources. Immediately thereafter, Israel began to actively consult with its overseas masters, i.e. with the XNUMXth Reich. The consequence of this was the careful development of the operation, which received the name "Rimon-XNUMX". As you can see, about a month has passed. Considering the information received by Israel about the air situation, the electronic warfare means used, as well as the chosen ambush tactics, this event took place. Moreover, Avi Gilad himself, giving an assessment of what happened, also said that it was just a trap. Thus, the self-praise and self-praise of Israeli and foreign media to Israeli pilots and their complete superiority over Soviet pilots is all from the evil one. Pilots of any Air Force who find themselves in the same situation is not a fact that they would not have suffered even greater losses. See things objectively

***
A trap in response to another trap.
I understand that sailorism has an ideological meaning, sometimes an expedient meaning, and glory to the heroes, but, nevertheless, war is also a war of minds, skills, abilities, engines, tactics...
A stratagem is a normal military move.*
PS Please provide the source of consultations with the 4th Reich. As far as I know, the operation was developed and approved by a general named *Hod.

[saylor1971]

Quote: aksakal

In the Korean War, Kozhedub alone came up with a whole bunch of such tactical discoveries in cases of maneuverable battles on jet aircraft, and nothing. They don’t extol, but they have the right to be proud. And they are proud of the great son of Russia.

Kozhedub was a Ukrainian by nationality and a great son of the USSR, not Russia with its Vlasov flag and not today’s Ukraine. They don't do things like that now.