Military Review

New Tavor caliber 7,62 millimeter. Why is the old cartridge relevant?

111
There has long been information that the designers of IWI are planning to create a version of the Tawor machine gun in the bullpup arrangement chambered for 7,62 caliber, since 5,56 does not meet the requirements currently imposed on arms. Since the people who deal with this issue are not stupid at all, it’s quite logical to develop this topic and once again talk about what is better than 7,62 or 5,45, 5,56. Though at once I will make a reservation that to say that this is better, but this is worse without reservations is impossible. In general, the topic is quite interesting, since it is the ammunition that defines the main characteristics of the weapon.


For the transition from 7,62 to 5,45, we need to thank not only the NATO countries, for whom domestic production has chased. In fact, Fedorov was the first to suggest that the caliber be reduced, and it was still in the late thirties, that is, when the intermediate cartridge was only in the plans, and far enough at that. Even then, Fedorov proposed an intermediate caliber ammunition equal to 6-6,5 millimeters, that is, at that time we could get far ahead, well, of course, with a normal approach to designing ammunition and no one would know about 5,45 at all, but did not grow together. Unfortunately, the production at that time was not ready to create an intermediate cartridge in the correct caliber, because 7,62x39 appeared. But if everything turned out differently, then nobody would even look towards 6,5 Grendel and others like him.

At the moment, it has already been proven not only theoretically, but practically, that the 7,62х39 is not the best ammunition, but, nevertheless, many manufacturers have continued, and will continue to manufacture weapons for this cartridge. The reason for this is that, despite everything, the 7,62x39 cartridge in some situations is superior to both the 5,45x39 and 5,56x45, but these munitions have their advantages, otherwise we would never have 5,45.

New Tavor caliber 7,62 millimeter. Why is the old cartridge relevant?First of all, the appearance of 5,45X39 is due to the fact that the recoil when firing weapons for 7,62x39 cartridges is quite large as a result, the accuracy when firing by the burst decreases sharply. I think that many have seen videos that the AK is not as good as is commonly believed, in which the superiority of the M16 in accuracy of fire in front of the AKM was clearly demonstrated. You can write off everything on the design of the weapon itself, but, as it seems to me, such a comparison is absolutely inappropriate. Since with the same pleasure it is possible to compare AKM and any light machine gun under 7,62х54 when shooting from a shoulder standing and to prove that the accuracy of the machine gun is worse than AKM. Ammunition is completely different, and therefore the comparison of speech can not be. It was the increase in the accuracy of the automatic fire that was the main reason for starting work on the 5,45х39 cartridge. But besides this there were other positive aspects in reducing the caliber, such as reducing the weight of ammunition or the same price during production.

All this turned out to be quite reasonable arguments and when the cartridge was still brought to mind, we got what we wanted, but did not take into account one circumstance. A circumstance has been a decrease in the effectiveness of hitting, as well as a decrease in the effective range in the practical use of weapons. However, at that time it did not attach much importance, the main thing is to make a hole in the enemy, and the rest is unimportant. In addition, I personally repeatedly heard such an opinion that from the economic side it is much better to injure the enemy, since money will be spent on his treatment, while the coffin will be much cheaper. Even if you take this rationale seriously, it is impossible not to take into account that the wounded may remain for a long time not a full-fledged, but quite a combat unit. In other words, 5,45x39, as well as 5,56x45, do not provide that stopping effect like 7,62x39.

I think everyone will agree that the stopping effect of ammunition is a very important thing, given the current knowledge and practice, the manufacturers agree with this. Thus, the essential problem of the cartridge 7,62х39 lies only in high recoil energy when firing, which reduces the accuracy of the automatic fire. Well, what weight is that weight? A remarkable point in all of this is that they began to struggle with the problem of recoil when shooting, or rather weapon stability when shooting, even during the first competition for an automatic machine for the Soviet Army. But all the proposed ideas had problems with reliability, the designers simply didn’t have a base and the thoughts that came to people were raw, they went to experimental samples, and actually our school of gunsmiths was born, because there was no looking back opportunities. But by the time of the transition to ammunition 5,45x39 there was already a fairly good base of the most interesting developments that increased the stability of the weapon when maintaining automatic fire, because it was they who had to give the green light rather than develop a replacement for the cartridge. In the end, back it was necessary to turn to what Fedorov was offering and at least try. However, we tried, but then 5,45x39 was already maximized and the next transition could not be pulled simply financially.

Outside of the motherland, everything was somewhat different. Caliber 7,62 millimeters there also existed, but in the form of a full-fledged rifle cartridge 7,62x51. It was under this munition that they tried to blunt the machine gun once, but crawled to heal bruises on their shoulders and set about developing the cartridge 5,56х45, which is why our 7,62x39 is still pulling hands, it’s not elementary, or rather, the price is not comparable.

In addition, since the end of the last century, intermediate cartridges have been developed in calibres from 6 to 7 millimeters and I must say very successful. So it was possible to achieve the characteristics of the domestic cartridge 7,62х39 with less impact, caliber, weight. Moreover, some options, such as the 6,8 Remington, require replacing a minimum of parts in order to switch from the 5,56 caliber to the new one. And everything seems to be good in new ammunition and the characteristics and the ability to adapt the already used samples, but so far no one is in a hurry to turn to them, although they are clearly more efficient than the 5,56x45 or 5,45x39 cartridges.

As already noted above, the price of these ammunition is no comparison with the price of the already widely distributed 7,62x39, which is not produced only by the lazy. Of course, new ammunition is significantly superior to its low-impulsive counterparts, and in comparison with the 7,62 x39 can be without any concessions, but the cost due to the lack of large-scale production varies greatly with the domestic patron. Thus, it is much more profitable to make a version of a weapon for a cartridge, which in some places literally rolls under your feet than under expensive ammunition, letting the weapon be stronger and stronger, but even with this in mind, it is cheaper to solve the problem of recoil compensation. What actually proves the company IWI their plans. Still, 7,62х39 still cannot be abandoned, despite its negative qualities and the existence of a large version of equivalent and superior replacements, but it would be better, of course, once Fedorov was listened to, you see, and the NATO army would get more intensely at-tat.
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  1. Canep
    Canep April 30 2013 08: 39
    +4
    The transition to 5,45 mm caliber gave a significant gain in ammunition weight, but gave a significant deterioration in ballistic characteristics. We, as always, chased the West without giving a damn about our experience: - "Wow! I want the same!", But as always it turned out, not very good. Now if we adopt a 6,5 or 6 mm caliber, we will get an even larger range of ammunition.
    1. Castor oil
      Castor oil April 30 2013 10: 44
      10
      Quote: Canep
      The transition to 5,45 mm caliber gave a significant gain in the weight of ammunition, but gave a significant deterioration in ballistic characteristics. As always, we chased the West, spitting on our experience: - "Wow! I want the same!"

      Yes, then everything was more complicated, and it was not only a matter of winning a portable ammunition, but also a considerable economy in metal, plus the load on the industry is reduced, while the outwardly ballistic characteristics of the five-sided cartridge are still higher, but the cost for this is less bullet energy. Moreover, in fact, conceptually, it was supposed that two soldiers, two shovels and an hour of time were needed to bury the slain, and it took 30 personnel and 45 days to leave the wounded (they even counted) (the load on the rear will be higher). There were other wars, tasks changed ...
      On the other hand, I agree, they hastened with the transition to just a small bullet, because later Blum re-worked the 7,62x39 cartridge correctly and designed the 5,6x39 cartridge, and then, in the west, 6ррс was created on the cartridge sleeve, it was an outstanding laser. Here it is - the Westerners giggled at the archaic and shoveling of the x39 bottle sleeve, and they themselves tossed the horseradish to the nose without hesitation using its capabilities. yes
      1. Heccrbq
        Heccrbq April 30 2013 11: 07
        0
        Kastor_ka is not a question, I read here recently that if the bullet’s speed is about 1400 m / s, even hitting it with your finger will cause a shock wave in the body leading to death. Rem223 is the closest to these parameters
        950-1050m / s. I have outlined the next trunk 7,62-54, and now I’ve thought about what you’ll say about this? If you can answer in PM.
        1. Castor oil
          Castor oil April 30 2013 12: 41
          -1
          Here is a video about more even high-speed ammunition winked
          (In a personal answer)
        2. shitovmg
          shitovmg April 30 2013 18: 52
          0
          Add the strength of the beast to the wound, the distance to the animal, the type of bullet and "a little bit" on top of the belay.
      2. Yen
        Yen April 30 2013 14: 41
        0
        "but the payoff for this is less bullet energy" yes, less. It's just that the bullet energy 7.62 is excessive. This bullet energy is not needed. Let's say that to kill a person you need 200 J, 5.45 gives 400 J, and 7.62 800 J. Duck, why do I spend for more expensive 7.62, when you can save by 5.45, and the efficiency will be the same. This is my personal opinion, you may not agree with him, all the values ​​are taken "from the ceiling", I came up with them as an example.
        1. Ch0sen1
          Ch0sen1 April 30 2013 15: 55
          +5
          But then what are the Shtatovs taking from the M-14 backup storage, changing the tree to plastic, hanging them with picatini and sending it to the troops? what
          1. Droid
            Droid 1 May 2013 10: 35
            +2
            Because they do not have SVD. laughing
          2. Witold
            Witold 19 June 2013 23: 23
            0
            Where did you grab this duck?
        2. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 1 May 2013 10: 37
          +2
          Muzzle energy (when firing from AKM or AK-74) at 7.62 - 1900J at 5.45 - 1300J. At the same time, 5.45 is a little effective already at a distance of over 350-400m. So the effectiveness of the unit is completely different.
          1. Droid
            Droid 1 May 2013 10: 49
            0
            And besides muzzle energy, can you name anything?
            For example, the fact that the muzzle energy of AK74 is 14 times higher than the minimum required to kill a person did not attract your attention.
            The fact that at 500 m the energy of the 5,45 bullet is almost equal to 9x19 Par. also passed you by.
            And the fact that its energy is transferred to the carcass 5,45 much more efficiently also by?
            1. pinachet
              pinachet 1 May 2013 15: 02
              +4
              Before killing a person, you need to fly through the green or walls, 5.45 this can not. Therefore, in local conflicts, they use 7.62 everywhere.
              1. Droid
                Droid 1 May 2013 15: 23
                +3
                Where both bullets fly through the green, the target will fly from 12,7 mm where no damn thing can be seen. For practical use, the penetration of greenbacks in 5,45 and 7,62x39 are equivalent. None of them will beat normal brickwork.
            2. ramsi
              ramsi 1 May 2013 16: 53
              0
              and armor? In addition, 5.45 "passes more efficiently" - on the verge of a foul. ”And what is this line? .. So, a piece of paper
              1. Droid
                Droid 1 May 2013 18: 58
                +1
                What is a bronik? New armor plates like 6B43 hold the armor-piercing B-32 from the SVD from 10 meters. What will 7,62x39 do here?
                As for efficiency, here is such a tablet.
                1. ramsi
                  ramsi 2 May 2013 08: 17
                  0
                  at the expense of the Broniks, there has recently been an article; I don’t remember verbatim, but it seems that, at 500m, the standard shtatovskiy - 5mm punched in 70% of cases, and 7.62 - in 100%
                  At the expense of kinetic energy, I’ll explain that 5mm has no reserves, it uses it almost completely; and at 7.62 - nobody uses it
                2. dustycat
                  dustycat 12 June 2013 17: 52
                  0
                  And you stand under the swing of a sledgehammer or hammer.
                  What is less pleasant for the body?
                  A hammer in 500g or a sledgehammer in 2kg.
            3. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 1 May 2013 18: 46
              0
              To kill a person, it is enough to take a brick and crack it on the head. So the meaning of the comment passed by you. Very sorry.
              1. Droid
                Droid 1 May 2013 19: 07
                0
                There is nothing in your comment other than a statement of the fact that the muzzle energy is 5,45 less than that of 7,62x39. On what basis is it concluded that the effectiveness of 5,45 is less than 7,62x39 is not clear. All data indicate the exact opposite.
            4. viktorR
              viktorR 3 May 2013 17: 01
              0
              I also read that the bullet was calculated so that its stability in flight rests on the edge, and as soon as it hits the body (or another obstacle), it starts to twist. So I didn’t really understand something about the stopping action in the article ... Well, I think everyone understands that this effect is present when the bush passes.
              1. dustycat
                dustycat 12 June 2013 17: 58
                0
                Here is a simple physics.
                The larger the diameter of the bullet, the greater the force keeps the bullet on course at the same pitch rifling in the barrel (at the same speed of rotation).
                For a 7,62 bullet, to ensure the same stability, a smaller rifling step per meter of barrel is needed than for 5,45.
                Extra cutting steps - excess energy consumption of the powder charge.
                Well, from there the worst shootability of a bush from AK 5,45 than from AK 7,62.
                On the issue of shooting through the green at the clearance.
            5. dustycat
              dustycat 12 June 2013 17: 48
              0
              But the fact that the class of body armor against different calibers is different in need?
              At the end of the 20th century, only the Soviet army fought in the KhB and PSh.
              Even the Mujahideen in Kevlar vests ran through the Hindu Kush mountains.
        3. slogger
          slogger 31 March 2014 13: 36
          0
          5,45 is good for police automatic weapons like ax-74u
      3. air wolf
        air wolf 14 October 2013 15: 18
        0
        Yes, you are right, a low-impulse cartridge should have been developed on a liner for 43 years, by re-compressing to 5,45, even more money would have been saved and there would have been an outstanding cartridge. I believe that the intermediate cartridge of 43 g needs to be modernized, lightened, new gunpowder and will be used in the 22nd century.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply April 30 2013 14: 11
      +4
      Are you laughing about ballistic performance degradation? Just 5.45 in this regard is better
    3. Sirocco
      Sirocco April 30 2013 15: 02
      +4
      This is from a series about automatic rifle. And a machine gun. http://topwar.ru/22990-o-konceptualnoy-neopredelennosti-v-razvitii-boevogo-strel
      kovogo-oruzhiya-v-rf.html I can’t understand, one. Either 39 cartridge is bad like AK, then 5.45 is bad, then 54 cartridge is bad. We rush from one extreme to another. What, with these bullets and bullets is impossible to destroy the enemy? Then ask the question, how did our grandfathers win the Second World War? It may be enough to bang your head against the wall, looking at a neighbor.
    4. Droid
      Droid 1 May 2013 10: 34
      0
      Ballistics 5,45 better than 7,62x39
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 06
        +1
        Well, further the distance of a direct shot from 5,45 than from 7,62 by 1,5 times.
        And what?
        But if you shoot from 7,62 through the bush, you know for sure - whoever hid behind the bush will no longer attack. Or the same story with a sheet of plywood ..
        And out of 5,54, it’s not a fact that you’ll ever get one.
        Yes, and a 5,45 bullet arriving at the target flat hole may not even make in HB or sweatshirt. Not like in the bronics.
        Note the nutation angle in the above table.
        At 5,45, the stability on the course is much lower.
        1. Droid
          Droid 12 June 2013 18: 11
          0
          Quote: dustycat
          Well, further the distance of a direct shot from 5,45 than from 7,62 by 1,5 times.
          And what?
          But if you shoot from 7,62 through the bush, you know for sure - whoever hid behind the bush will no longer attack. Or the same story with a sheet of plywood ..
          And out of 5,54, it’s not a fact that you’ll ever get one.
          Yes, and a 5,45 bullet arriving at the target flat hole may not even make in HB or sweatshirt. Not like in the bronics.
          Note the nutation angle in the above table.
          At 5,45, the stability on the course is much lower.

          And the video above, about shooting AKM and AK74 through the layout of the bush, is it not fate to watch? And at once all the tales turn pale ... The rest of your argument is at the level of the same tales.
    5. svp67
      svp67 1 May 2013 13: 01
      0
      Quote: Canep
      but gave a significant deterioration in ballistic characteristics.
      You are wrong The "ballistic" qualities of our 5,45 mm bullet are very high, higher than that of the 7,62 mm.
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 1 May 2013 15: 53
        0
        But 5,45 loses its lethal force faster, and nobody has modernized the domestic ammunition for a long time.
        1. Droid
          Droid 1 May 2013 19: 10
          +1
          5,45 retains stopping power up to 1350 meters. Where do you need more?
    6. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 31
      0
      Another addition, then there was no bulletproof vests. So maybe 6 mm is also not an option. You need to finish 7,62 and work with the return.
      1. Droid
        Droid 4 May 2013 10: 25
        0
        Quote: Retriever
        Another addition, then there was no bulletproof vests. So maybe 6 mm is also not an option. You need to finish 7,62 and work with the return.

        1. Modern armor plates to keep armor-piercing B-32 from SVD from 10 m.
        2. Take an interest in the area of ​​bulletproof protection of the frontal projection of modern armor plates.
        1. Retriever
          Retriever 4 May 2013 11: 11
          0
          Body armor, in addition to plates, also consists of something. And this material no longer holds 10 meters, but also provides protection. And the frontal projection is much larger. and if you take Permyachka. But for some reason, we look at the most protected place and say it is so small.
  2. bazilio
    bazilio April 30 2013 08: 41
    +6
    Thanks to the author.
    "In other words, 5,45x39, as well as 5,56x45, do not give that stopping effect as 7,62x39. “Well, everything is not so simple here. 5.56x45, although it has a lower weight and caliber, but due to the minimal stabilization by rotation, when it hits soft tissue, it starts to tumble. On the other hand, 7.62 has both caliber and mass more.

    And the Jews as a whole correctly decided to use 7.62x39. Not only is a cheap cartridge, it also gives the opportunity to replenish ammunition at the expense of potential opponents who also use this cartridge
  3. avt
    avt April 30 2013 09: 27
    +2
    Quote: bazilio
    And the Jews as a whole correctly decided to use 7.62x39. Not only is a cheap cartridge, it also gives the opportunity to replenish ammunition at the expense of potential opponents who also use this cartridge

    Yes, it seems that it was with this aim that they created an assembly under the cartridge. In general, the author is right. Indeed, the transition to 5,45 probably did not pay off and 6mm is preferred in the Fedorov version.
    1. BARKAS
      BARKAS April 30 2013 10: 05
      +2
      The Americans have already placed an order for almost a billion rounds of ammunition at Russian factories, including 7,62, probably Israel will also get something.
      1. Castor oil
        Castor oil April 30 2013 10: 51
        +2
        Quote: BARKAS
        The Americans have already placed an order for almost a billion rounds of ammunition at Russian factories, including 7,62, probably Israel will also get something.

        What are they bad or something - they and this billiard will like hot cakes go to their saogi, sks and their arched and ruger re-shootings laughing
        1. dustycat
          dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 10
          0
          Yeah .. Only the price will be 10 times more.
          NATO generals are well aware of their businessmen.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply April 30 2013 14: 13
        0
        Israel produces its 7.62. And he’s not going to switch to this caliber. If the next conversion package is created for Tavor (and there is already one for 9mm luger and 5.45), then it will be either for foreign markets or for special operations forces
        1. bazilio
          bazilio April 30 2013 16: 44
          +2
          Quote: Pimply
          If the next conversion package for Tavor is created

          If there will be a conversion. a whale for Tavor under 7.62x39, it would not be bad for him also to make a receiver for shops from ak, so that I could use the captured ammunition
          1. Pimply
            Pimply April 30 2013 17: 12
            -1
            Logically, but there, I feel, a separate topic
          2. dustycat
            dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 12
            0
            At one gun show, our gunsmiths already showed such a receiver ...
      3. atalef
        atalef April 30 2013 22: 30
        +2
        Quote: BARKAS
        The Americans have already placed an order for almost a billion rounds of ammunition at Russian factories, including 7,62, probably Israel will also get something.

        The factory producing cartridges (in Israel) is located in Nazareth., what
      4. Witold
        Witold 19 June 2013 23: 32
        0
        Fiction at the level of delirium. But do you know how many cartridge factories in the states are superior to the Russian in terms of technology and productivity?
      5. Witold
        Witold 13 September 2013 15: 39
        0
        Why run a deliberately false duck? The Americans have enough companies producing ammunition of all calibers existing in the world.
  4. Castor oil
    Castor oil April 30 2013 10: 02
    +4
    7,62x39 is interesting all over the world solely because of the balance of stopping action with a small recoil impulse, and everything else, such as "free zinc underfoot" is nonsense - hardly anyone in their right mind wants to hammer an incomprehensible left ammunition into the store when their wealth. Moreover, the Israelis are not going to change the caliber, but are simply expanding the line of samples for special tasks, with an eye on export, and that's it.
  5. datur
    datur April 30 2013 12: 05
    0
    beautiful Jews copied !!!! wink
  6. gregor6549
    gregor6549 April 30 2013 13: 19
    +2
    Not understood. are we here about the Jews or about cartridges?
    If about cartridges, then the 5.56mm, with all its advantages in weight and the effect of an explosive bullet from a displaced center of gravity, has one main drawback. As soon as the bullet meets a thin branch or something similar, it is impossible to predict where it will fly further. As a rule, not where she was sent.
    And 7.62mm simply does not pay attention to such trifles. Of course, the legs of the hand does not tear off as "beautifully" as 5.56mm, but it also kills people quite convincingly. Although cripples them more humanely. We are not animals, God forgive me.
    The fact that the Israelis decided to return to the caliber 7.62mm, they thought about this in the USSR immediately after Afghanistan. The difference is that the Israelis are able to quickly learn and draw the right conclusions from the lessons taught to them, Life is forcing. And to learn from them this is not shameful to the Russians either.
    And about the Jews. Comrade Zhvanetsky, "the country duty officer," said something like: "Stop shouting Jews, Jews. Not all Jews in our country are Jews." A very competent statement and it is true not only for Russia, but also for Israel.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply April 30 2013 14: 16
      0
      No one decided to return. Another conversion kit for Tavor. They did it under 5.45, but no one says that Israel does not move to this caliber.

      And nonsense about twigs and stuff - listen less.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco April 30 2013 16: 23
        +3
        Almost everyone who has ever encountered small arms has heard of bullets with a displaced center of gravity. Often the information about them is at the level: "my friend has a neighbor who served there and said that ...". Various details may follow, but the point is that there are bullets with a displaced center of gravity, which, once in the leg, get out of the head. I myself have repeatedly heard such stories and opinions about these stories. The degree of reaction ranges from harsh criticism and accusations of a narrator of lies to a businesslike assent. Let’s try to figure out whether such bullets exist, what special properties they possess and whether they can inflict injuries of such severity.

        The answer to the first question is simple - yes, they existed and exist. Moreover, their background began in the early years of the last century. In the event of a collision with any obstacle, the behavior of a 5,45-caliber bullet changes dramatically. A significant overturning moment arises. The laws of conservation of energy and angular momentum lead to the fact that rotation along the longitudinal axis is replaced by rotation along an arbitrary axis passing through the center of gravity. This phenomenon is called gyroscopic precession. In this case, the longitudinal axis of the bullet begins to describe the cone in space.

        This behavior of the bullet significantly increases the traumatic effect in the defeat of unarmored live targets. However, there are no and cannot be any miracles such as “hit the shoulder, went over the heel”. Such information is created and disseminated by people who are pathologically incapable of logical thinking.


        So the conclusion. The shifted center of gravity is more likely not a characteristic of a single bullet, but a property of a small-caliber weapon-cartridge system.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply April 30 2013 17: 14
          0
          That's just 5.56 M183 could do this. There is a destruction of the bullet, the outlet can be anywhere, and before the variation - the size of a fist.
          1. dustycat
            dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 23
            0
            The ability of small-caliber bullets to slide along the bones is quite natural.
            The energy to break a bone is not enough, and that glides along the bones.
            Only along the bones of blood vessels of large cross section is small and therefore the main lethal effect of pain shock, and not of blood loss.
            Why are anti-shock and painkillers becoming one of the ingredients in military chemistry.
            Therefore, the stopping effect again takes on significance.
            Sledgehammer and hammer are very different at the same speed.
      2. dustycat
        dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 15
        0
        And you try.
        And disprove. If there is anything.
    2. elmi
      elmi April 30 2013 21: 08
      +3
      Quote: gregor6549
      If about cartridges, then the 5.56mm, with all its advantages in weight and the effect of an explosive bullet from a displaced center of gravity, has one main drawback. As soon as the bullet meets a thin branch or something similar, it is impossible to predict where it will fly further. As a rule, not where she was sent.

      Our 5,45-39 mm, also with a displaced center, fly into the body in one place, and fly out or get stuck in another place, or take off and ricochet very hard (tested in military operations), so it’s better to switch to heavier options. If not on 7,62-39mm, then on the intermediate version in calibers from 6 to 7 millimeters.
  7. shitovmg
    shitovmg April 30 2013 13: 51
    +1
    You just need to develop and test a 6,5 mm cartridge similar to Fedorovsky! While the essence and the matter, you see, the cartridge will be ready. And his time began in 1916, the Fedorov assault rifle and Arisak cartridges.
    1. Droid
      Droid 1 May 2013 10: 38
      0
      Why is it needed? And who will give billions of money for rearmament?
      1. dustycat
        dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 31
        0
        What billions?
        Have you ever shot a barrel with AK?
        Replace punches and dies on the same turret presses that 7,62 rivets, screw in other trunks of the desired caliber. Screw the aiming strip with a different marking. And that’s all. Everything in the conditions of a battalion gun is done.
        Well, we can two or three billion rubles and it will be necessary for 2 million trunks.
        They spend almost 80 a year on bribes, but only three must be put on ...
  8. USNik
    USNik April 30 2013 14: 24
    +1
    For a long time there is information that the designers of IWI are planning to create a version of the Tawor assault rifle in the layout of bullpups under a cartridge of 7,62 caliber

    Bggg, the Jews are slowing down, here is the latest information:
    Vladimir Zlobin, the chief designer of the enterprise, spoke about the development prospects of the center ...
    Also, the chief designer of Izhmash spoke about creating new caliber ammunition for AK-12 and announced that in September 2013 it plans to introduce three new cartridges - one pistol and two machine guns - the production of which will be conducted at the cartridge factories as part of the Kalashnikov concern.

    7.62 excessively powerful and heavy, 5.56 weak, I think the main thing will be something like 6.5x39 soldier
  9. Pimply
    Pimply April 30 2013 14: 25
    -2
    The article is written without understanding the issue. Nobody goes to anything. Just this is another version of the conversion. There will be a set that can be put into the machine without any problems, changing the barrel, magazine receiver and bolt group.
  10. uzer 13
    uzer 13 April 30 2013 17: 09
    +4
    To me, 7.622 * 39 seems to be quite suitable. From 100m I was in the top ten from AKM and SKS, the spread of 3 shots could be covered with a 5-kopeck coin. With single shots, of course, but this demonstrates the capabilities of the weapon. If you put a good muzzle brake compensator, then you can significantly improve the stabilization of the machine. The SCS could also be useful, because. it has the properties of a hunting rifle and allows you to make a quick shot offhand, but this is for good shooters. In vain we switched to 5.45.
  11. Apologet.Ru
    Apologet.Ru April 30 2013 18: 12
    +3
    “In fact, Fedorov was the first to reduce the caliber, and it was still in the late thirties, that is, when the intermediate cartridge was only in plans, and quite distant. Even then, Fedorov proposed a caliber of intermediate ammunition equal to 6-6,5 millimeters ”

    I would like to note to the distinguished author that Fedorov did not have the idea of ​​using an 6,5 mm caliber cartridge in the 30 years, but in the 1913 year, when Vladimir Grigoryevich proposed an automatic rifle of his own design for a new cartridge with a length of 81,41 mm, 21,25 g weight and 9 bullet weight , 0 designed by him. At the same time, the caliber of the Fedorov cartridge with the muzzle energy of the 1960,2 J bullet had the same characteristics as the Japanese rifle cartridge 6,5x50SR Arisaka with the muzzle energy of the 2615 J bullet. However, it should be clarified that both the Fedorov cartridge and the cartridge for the Arisaka rifle cartridge have ballistic properties , albeit of a reduced caliber and power, and not at all by any semblance of intermediate ones, as the author claims. However, in terms of the caliber of the bullet and its muzzle energy, the Arisaka 6,5x50SR cartridge, when used in a Fedorov assault rifle, which had a relatively short barrel, is comparable to the most powerful of the modern intermediate cartridges designed for the specific task of hitting targets protected by personal protective equipment. These are cartridges such as 6,8x43 Remington SPC or 6,5x38 Grendel. However, due to the use of much less advanced technologies and materials of the end of the 19th century in its design, it corresponded precisely to rifle cartridges in terms of weight, dimensions and recoil momentum, was unnecessarily large and difficult to successfully use in a hand automatic weapon such as a modern automatic rifle (machine gun) or automatic carbine.
    1. scrabler
      1 May 2013 00: 38
      +2
      I am aware of the fact that Fedorov used the cartridge Arisaka, but here we are talking about the intermediate, rather than rifle ammunition, and this is exactly about this cartridge Fedorov and advanced the idea of ​​the 6-6,5 caliber of millimeters.
      1. Ch0sen1
        Ch0sen1 1 May 2013 11: 11
        +2
        In addition to using a cartridge, Arisaki Fedorov also offered his own cartridge of 6,5 caliber.
    2. dustycat
      dustycat 12 June 2013 18: 37
      0
      Fedorovsky cartridge was normal.
      If our generals hadn’t bought Japanese bribes, they would have mastered the production of an intermediate Fedorovsky patron without a protruding bottom edge, and would not have started making Fedorov’s submachine gun chambered by Arisak.
      Because of this edge of the cartridge Ariska and its small thickness of the bottom wall and there were all the troubles of the Fedorov assault rifle of the 1913 model.
      And in itself it was a very good machine for that time.
  12. Apologet.Ru
    Apologet.Ru April 30 2013 18: 14
    +2
    “I think that many have seen videos that the AK is not as good as is commonly believed, which clearly demonstrated the superiority of the M16 in the accuracy of fire over the AKM.”

    I want to give an example, to demonstrate, so to speak, from my own experience, and not from a video clip, while not denying the fact of greater return compared to M16, the effectiveness of shooting from AKM. Studying at a military school, at the beginning of the 80's, in the winter they carried out test firing from AKM. The exercise was practiced from the position of Lying, in gas masks. It was snowy, and besides, the snow was chalking, naturally the target field was “washed out” and the targets were hardly recognized. For me, the shooting conditions were complicated by the fact that I wear glasses, because I have complex astigmatism (-2, + 0,5), and I naturally had to take off my glasses, and although I am a right-handed “shooting” eye, I have a left. In spite of this, with the allocated cartridges I first laid down my three targets, and then with the remaining ones the neighbor’s target as well. because of the above conditions, it was necessary to shoot at everything that resembled a target.
  13. Apologet.Ru
    Apologet.Ru April 30 2013 18: 16
    0
    “In addition, I personally have repeatedly heard the opinion that it is much better to injure the enemy from the economic side, since money will be spent on his treatment, while the coffin will be much cheaper. Even if you take this justification seriously, you can not ignore that the wounded may remain for a long time may not be a full-fledged, but completely combat unit. In other words, 5,45x39, as well as 5,56x45, do not have the same stopping effect as 7,62x39. ”

    I think that when choosing calibers, it’s not only the stopping action of the bullet, the brick also has not a small stopping effect, but the fact that the MORE THE BULLET IS MORE, AND THE SPEED IS LESS, THE MORE PUNCHABILITY IS, BUT LESS is the ability to side impact (ENERGY RESPONSE TO FABRICS). In our understanding - Hole. The LESS THE MASS OF THE SULFIT IS LESS, AND THE SPEED IS MORE, THE LESS THE PUNCHING ABILITY, but MORE the ability to side impact (RESPOND TO ENERGY TO FABRICS). Those. The reasons for the pronounced destructive effect of modern small-caliber bullets, on the one hand, are the high initial speed of their flight, and on the other hand, especially the design, which manifests itself in a higher kinetic energy yield compared to 7,62 bullets. When the bullet deviates from the original axis of flight, the area of ​​contact with the tissues increases sharply, which leads to the transfer of a significant amount of kinetic energy in a very short period of time. Thus, although the total kinetic energy of a bullet of the caliber 5, 45 / 5,56 mm is smaller than the bullet of the caliber 7,62 mm, the amount of energy transferred to the tissues turns out to be much larger, which explains the EXTENSION OF TISSUE DESTRUCTION, i.e. the severity of the wound and the complexity of processing the wound canal, which is not unimportant in the field. High-speed bullets are also characterized by their destruction, especially when in contact with bone.
  14. Apologet.Ru
    Apologet.Ru April 30 2013 18: 19
    0
    And I would like to add that the 5,45 × 39 mm cartridge did not appear "out of thin air", its design took into account the experience of creation and combat use (primarily Vietnam) of the American 5,56 × 45 mm cartridge, so the new cartridge turned out to be comparable in efficiency despite less power. A small-caliber bullet with a high initial velocity, provides a high flatness of the trajectory (in comparison with the 7,62 × 39 mm cartridge, the direct firing range has increased by 100 meters), has a good penetrating effect and significant lethal force. A small recoil impulse at the moment of a shot has a beneficial effect on the accuracy and accuracy of fire, and a decrease in the mass of a cartridge allows the shooter to increase the wearable ammunition (200 cartridges of 7,62 × 39 mm weigh the same as 300 cartridges of 5,45 × 39 mm).
    Army cartridges 5,45 × 39 mm were produced in the USSR, East Germany, Yugoslavia, and are produced in Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Indonesia, France, Serbia, China, North Korea and the Czech Republic. In the post-Soviet space, they are produced in Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine.
    The disadvantages include the tendency to ricochet (which is especially inconvenient in urban conditions, mountainous areas, confined spaces), lower armor penetration at long distances, BUT (!) This applies exclusively to the first versions of the cartridge with the PS bullet (7Н6 / 7Н6М). In the version with bullets PP (7Н10), BP (7Н22), armor penetration is COMPARABLE with bullets 7,62-mm cartridge arr. 1943 of the year, and in the version with the BS bullet (7Н24), the armor penetration is ABOVE (!) As bullets of the 7,62-mm cartridge arr. 1943 years, and 7,62-mm rifle cartridge arr. 1908 of the year.
    1. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 46
      +1
      The example of Vietnam is not very good. In the jungle, the battle is not at great distances, and this allows you to shoot bursts of sight from the AKM, but also little impulse cartridges are deflected by foliage and branches, plus 7,62 can break through a not very thick tree trunk, which makes many shelters of little use. It was necessary to work with returns and not change the cartridge.
      1. Droid
        Droid 4 May 2013 10: 26
        0
        We look, we are educated.
  15. ramsi
    ramsi April 30 2013 20: 17
    +1
    Why, why is everyone so caught in automatic fire ?! And then they begin to solve problems that are practically impossible to solve.
    1. Droid
      Droid 1 May 2013 10: 43
      +1
      The key concept is shooting efficiency. The consequence is the concept of fire density.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 1 May 2013 11: 03
        0
        I meant: equip two bullets at once in a cartridge, one after the other; then with a single shot there would be a short burst effect, and the accuracy would be higher than with other methods
        1. Droid
          Droid 1 May 2013 11: 18
          0
          Multi-bullet cartridges. There was such a topic.
          The advantage is an increase in accuracy without distortion with automatic weapons.
          Disadvantages: an increase in the dimensions of the cartridge, a significant increase in pressure in the barrel (if we want to maintain ballistics), which leads to heavier and larger dimensions of the weapon and a decrease in its maneuverability. And most importantly, a complete re-equipment for the new cartridge-weapon complex is required.
          The advantages of the Nikonov and Stechkin assault rifles were the use of a regular 5,45 mm cartridge.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 1 May 2013 11: 23
            0
            of all the "buts" - the only significant one is complete rearmament. But this argument is so-so
  16. Argon
    Argon 1 May 2013 02: 07
    0
    In general, the issue covered by the article is clear, and is akin to the problem of tank guns of the next "step of calibers" Everyone understands everything but ... it's expensive, i.e. there are more disadvantages than advantages at the moment. Only, I disagree with the author, not with the commentators (although there are competent people) that 5.45 has a low stopping effect. I myself had to shoot extremely rarely in battle, and probably never hit. But to provide PMP to fighters, quite often, and I must tell you; when it hits the forearm (it often happened, as a rule right through) even from the PC with sufficient self-control, the fighter himself "accorded" put a tourniquet and was able to cut off fire or "make noise" on the flanks for 20-25 minutes (with one hand of course). When hitting 5.45, the soldier does not even shout, the hand is a continuous wound, blood gushes and he sits, his eyes are in a heap. Moreover, the hit of a NATO bullet inflicts many times more serious damage, you determine by the presence of fragments of soft tissues on the ground near the wounded. Quite a different matter when hitting a bulletproof vest; there was a case The machine gunner received three bullets in the sternum from some German rifle and in a fever did not notice it. But a hit from an AKM usually breaks two ribs at least. Well, I have never seen that I got off with bruises. And I think about TAVOR. that option 7.62 is more preferable for battles in the city, less recochet.
    1. uzer 13
      uzer 13 1 May 2013 07: 37
      -1
      This is the true truth. The bullet of the NATO ammunition, when it hits the target, crumbles into very small fragments, almost into powder with all the ensuing consequences. Even in civilian revolvers, a similar cartridge began to be used, which, in fact, is not very humane.
    2. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 49
      0
      In greenback the same nonsense, grass and branches deflect the bullet. 5,45 is good in open areas.
  17. Droid
    Droid 1 May 2013 10: 29
    0
    Even then, Fedorov proposed a caliber of intermediate ammunition equal to 6-6,5 millimeters, that is, back then we could go far ahead, well, of course, with a normal approach to the design of ammunition and no one would have known about 5,45 at all, but not fused.

    Everything has grown together. Cartridges of caliber 6,5 mm were tested and tested when creating 7,62x39, as well as when creating 5,45x39.
  18. Droid
    Droid 1 May 2013 10: 32
    0
    All this turned out to be quite justified arguments and when the cartridge was nevertheless brought to mind, they got what they wanted, but did not take into account one circumstance. The circumstance was a decrease in the effectiveness of the hit, as well as a decrease in the effective range in the practical use of weapons. However, at that time they did not attach much importance to this, the main thing is to make a hole in the enemy, and the rest does not matter.

    Everything is exactly the opposite. The effectiveness of the AK74 is 1,2-1,6 times higher than that of the AKM and the effective firing range is also higher, 500 m for the AK74 versus 400 for the AKM. The target action of 5,45 is also higher than that of 7,62x39.
    1. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 54
      0
      Then there were no bulletproof vests, therefore the transition went over, if the bulletproof vests appeared at that time, there would have been no transition. And the fact that 7,62 is inferior to 5,45 in penetration armor is due to the fact that 7,62 has long been outdated. And the effectiveness of 5,45 at a distance drops at times.
  19. Kukota
    Kukota 1 May 2013 11: 53
    0
    I honestly did not understand - but what conclusion should I draw from this article?
    1. Die-hard
      Die-hard 1 May 2013 13: 04
      0
      Yes, no. There is no need to look for meaning, there is no need to draw conclusions, here you need to read the article and forget it.
  20. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 1 May 2013 22: 54
    0
    But is it really impossible to put a muzzle brake with an absorption coefficient of 70 on an old AKM?
    Put, and do not fool your head.
    1. Droid
      Droid 1 May 2013 22: 58
      0
      70 what?
      You can not.
      1. Ivan Tarasov
        Ivan Tarasov 1 May 2013 23: 27
        0
        70%
        Why not?
        1. Droid
          Droid 1 May 2013 23: 37
          0
          To reduce the recoil momentum by half of the bullet momentum 7,62 sample 43 g, it is necessary that all 100% of the powder gases flow back, at an angle of 30 ° to the barrel, at a speed of 3500 m / s. What is actually more than 2 times higher than the actual flow rate.
          What will happen to the shooter when the gases fly at his face at such a speed from a burst of 3-5 shots?
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 2 May 2013 08: 25
            0
            what about the air damper in the neck of the butt?
            1. Droid
              Droid 2 May 2013 08: 53
              0
              I don’t think automatic fire is a good idea. The bed should be held by the shooter, and not dangle back and forth with his hands. And it does not affect the recoil momentum in any way. In this way, power / recoil force can be reduced by stretching it over time. But here, a low-pulse cartridge will have an advantage.
              1. ramsi
                ramsi 2 May 2013 09: 58
                0
                - for automatic - yes, although automatic fire for handguns is, in general, a bad idea.
                - a low-pulse cartridge will have an advantage, although the idea of ​​degrading the characteristics of the cartridge for the sake of automatic fire seems dubious.
                By the way, I in no way protect 7.62X39, I always did not like it; just 5.45 had to be done with a higher initial speed, if possible in principle, of course
    2. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 56
      0
      The brake is not enough, now it is maximally solved in AEK and AK-12. That's when they eliminate all design flaws, then there will be gut.
  21. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 2 May 2013 06: 54
    0
    That is, in this situation, 100% of the gases will extinguish 50% of the shutter return pulse?
    But is it possible, in this case, to extinguish the shutter return pulse by another method?
    1. Droid
      Droid 2 May 2013 07: 59
      0
      Not a shutter pulse, but a recoil pulse. In systems with tight locking of the barrel, the recoil is by itself, and the shutter pulse is by itself.
      And it is impossible to change the recoil momentum by any automation - this prohibits the law of conservation of momentum. Only active-reactive DTC or low-pulse cartridge.
      And my previous answer should be read as - at an angle of 30 ° with respect to normal trunk, still late at night my formulations are lame.
      1. Ivan Tarasov
        Ivan Tarasov 2 May 2013 09: 53
        -1
        Gunpowder gases press on the bottom of the sleeve, as long as the bullet has not left the barrel (in a system with a tight locking) - there will be no recoil.
        The recoil can be extinguished by smoothly lowering the pressure at the exit of the bullet from the barrel.
        A muzzle brake that disperses 70 percent of the energy of powder gases will reduce recoil power by 70 percent.
        And it is not necessary to rotate 30 degrees relative to the normal, perpendicular scattering is enough.
        It all depends on the design of the muzzle brake.
        1. Droid
          Droid 2 May 2013 09: 57
          0
          Thus, the impulse cannot be extinguished, it can be stretched in time and thereby reduce the force / power of the recoil. And this has already been done and even taken into service. AN-94 is called.
          1. Ivan Tarasov
            Ivan Tarasov 2 May 2013 11: 02
            -1
            AN-94 is difficult to operate.
            It’s cheaper and more efficient not to develop a new machine, but to focus on developing a muzzle brake.
            The one that stands on the AN-94 just stretches the recoil in time (the presence of two vortex chambers). The pressure of the powder gases should be dissipated in the DT, for example, use two chamber DT (with embedded chambers in the other chambers).
            Or, for example, consider the option of DT with an internal movable impact diaphragm, which will compensate for recoil.
            1. Droid
              Droid 2 May 2013 12: 42
              -1
              Simply Maxim machine gun.
              No DT helped classical and balanced automation systems fulfill the requirements of the GRAU to increase firing efficiency by 1.5-2 times. Only automatic machines on the gun carriage — Stechkina and Nikonova — coped with the task.
              1. Ivan Tarasov
                Ivan Tarasov 3 May 2013 06: 55
                0
                Carriages should be developed for domestic grenade launchers.
                And on the machine, put an effective DT, and not reinvent the wheel.
  22. cymnThennagma
    cymnThennagma 2 May 2013 08: 02
    -3
    jikn Tell me where you can download good new applications for a smartphone
  23. Droid
    Droid 2 May 2013 08: 42
    0
    Quote: ramsi
    at the expense of the Broniks, there has recently been an article; I don’t remember verbatim, but it seems that, at 500m, the standard shtatovskiy - 5mm punched in 70% of cases, and 7.62 - in 100%

    Old 7N6 70s release? Penetration 7N10M is much higher, armor-piercing 5,45BP exceeds penetration 7,62BP, albeit slightly. Modern armor plates hold armor-piercing B-32 from SVD from 10 m.
    Attention should be paid to another. Namely, that the frontal area of ​​bulletproof protection is 7,5-8 square dm — this is 1/8 of the frontal projection of the growth figure, 1/6 of the waist. Everything else calmly breaks through on 500 m with the old 7N6 or nothing is covered at all.
    Quote: ramsi

    At the expense of kinetic energy, I’ll explain that 5mm has no reserves, it uses it almost completely; and at 7.62 - nobody uses it

    Reformulate. It is not clear what this is about. Either about bestowal, or about the transfer of energy from a bullet to a carcass.
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 2 May 2013 10: 06
      0
      - unfortunately, nothing was said about the cartridges and, even, the barrels, but based on the general layout of the muzzle energy, probably, nevertheless, the comparison was correct.
      - about the penetration of 5.45BP and 7.62BP - as I understand it, cores are made by different methods. In addition, steel plates are not the only obstacle that a bullet will have to face.
      - I meant the return of energy to the carcass
      1. Droid
        Droid 2 May 2013 11: 03
        0
        Penetration (ceteris paribus) depends on the energy density of the target. Since the cross-sectional area of ​​5,45 is 2 times less than that of 7,62, and the energy is only 1.48 times less (muzzle), the energy density of 5,45 is 1.3 times higher.
  24. Droid
    Droid 2 May 2013 10: 58
    0
    Quote: ramsi
    - for automatic - yes, although automatic fire for handguns is, in general, a bad idea.

    Quite the opposite is a good idea. As an example, for shooting to kill (the mathematical expectation of the number of targets hit at least 80%) at ~ 400 m, a fire density of:
    single - 6 bullets per meter of front per minute;
    in short bursts - 9 bullets per meter of front per minute.
    Combat rate of fire AK74:
    single fire - 40 rpm;
    in short bursts - 100 rpm.
    A single shooter closes the front 40/6 = ~ 7m meters per minute.
    In line - 100/9 = ~ 11 meters per minute.
    Разница (100/9)/(40/6)=20/12=5/3=1.67 раза.
    Shooting bursts of arrows either hits 1.67 times more targets per unit of time (due to the longer front length), or it hits 1.67 times faster the same number of targets.

    Quote: ramsi

    - a low-pulse cartridge will have an advantage, although the idea of ​​degrading the characteristics of the cartridge for the sake of automatic fire seems dubious.
    By the way, I in no way protect 7.62X39, I always did not like it; just 5.45 had to be done with a higher initial speed, if possible in principle, of course

    Cartridge performance has improved significantly.
    Flatness increased, flight time decreased, wind drift decreased, and ammunition increased 1,5 times. The energy density of 5,45 is 1.34 times higher than that of 7,62x39.
  25. ramsi
    ramsi 2 May 2013 13: 08
    0
    Quote: Droid
    Penetration (ceteris paribus) depends on the energy density of the target. Since the cross-sectional area of ​​5,45 is 2 times less than that of 7,62, and the energy is only 1.48 times less (muzzle), the energy density of 5,45 is 1.3 times higher

    in fact, I have already decently "typed", but something is wrong here:
    firstly, if we talk about penetration of armor-piercing bullets, then it is necessary to compare the diameter of the cores, and not the bullets themselves;
    secondly, how to count: if you count at (the same!) bullet speed, then the energy of 7.62 will be 2 times higher; and if we take into account that energy is mass per square of speed, where speed is variable (and very significantly), then there simply cannot be a single-valued difference at different distances.
    But that’s okay, but what about the fundamental possibility of accelerating a small-caliber bullet?
  26. ramsi
    ramsi 2 May 2013 13: 16
    0
    Quote: Droid
    Quite the opposite is a good idea. As an example, for shooting to kill (the mathematical expectation of the number of targets hit at least 80%) at ~ 400 m, fire density is required: single - 6 bullets per meter of front per minute; in short bursts - 9 bullets per meter of front per minute. : with single fire - 74 rpm; in short bursts - 40 rpm; With single shooters, the front closes the front 100/40 = ~ 6 meters per minute; with bursts - 7/100 = ~ 9 meters per minute. (11/100) = 9/40 = 6/20 = 12 times. Shooting with bursts of arrows, or striking 5 times more targets per unit of time (due to the longer front length), about the same number of targets, it hits 3 times faster.

    I adore theorists. "It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines, and walk on them"
    At 400m, it’s very problematic to get into the growth target even with the second cartridge in the queue, except perhaps Nikonov’s strength ...
  27. Droid
    Droid 2 May 2013 13: 51
    0
    Quote: ramsi

    in fact, I have already decently "typed", but something is wrong here:
    firstly, if we talk about penetration of armor-piercing bullets, then it is necessary to compare the diameter of the cores, and not the bullets themselves;

    Bullet core diameter 5,45 ~ 4 mm, 7.62 ~ 6 mm. The difference in cross-sectional area is 2.25 times. Core weight 5,45BP ~ 1.8g, 7.62BP ~ 4g. Those. divide the energy of the bullet in half and this will be the energy of the core.
    Quote: ramsi

    secondly, how to count: if you count at (the same!) bullet speed, then the energy of 7.62 will be 2 times higher; and if we take into account that energy is mass per square of speed, where speed is variable (and very significantly), then there simply cannot be a single-valued difference at different distances.
    But that’s okay, but what about the fundamental possibility of accelerating a small-caliber bullet?

    It is necessary to count not at the same speed, but at the same range.
    Example. At 400 m, the energy of the bullet is 5,45 - 51 kgm, 7.62 - 63 kgm.
    Divide in half, then the energy of the bullet core is 5,45 - 25.5 kgm, 7,62 - 31.5 kgm. The superiority in energy is 1.24 times in 7,62, and since the core area is 5,45 2.25 times smaller, 2.25 / (31.5 / 25.5) = 1.82 times the energy density of the core is 5.45 higher.
    The speed must be raised to no less than 1500 m / s, and preferably up to ~ 2000 m / s. Only this is not a small-caliber bullet to disperse, and SPEL weighing ~ 1g.
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 2 May 2013 14: 50
      +1
      funny, I seem to be defending a cartridge that I don’t like, before one that I don’t like too, although to a lesser extent. However, 7.62 can be improved, but about 5mm - it’s not clear
  28. Droid
    Droid 2 May 2013 14: 06
    0
    Quote: ramsi

    I adore theorists. "It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines, and walk on them"
    At 400m, it’s very problematic to get into the growth target even with the second cartridge in the queue, except perhaps Nikonov’s strength ...

    The high rank of theorist still needs to be earned.
    Judging by your words about the second bullet, you have no idea what the density of fire is and why it is needed.
    And as an example based on this data. With a density of 6 bullets per meter of front in single (9 bursts) with a probability of defeat of 0.8, the average expected ammunition consumption for hitting one target (if there is one target on each front meter):
    single - 7,5 bullets per target;
    bursts - 11.25 bullets per target.
    And if you take into account that the density of targets is 8 times lower then increase the numbers 8 times.
    What about the second bullet?
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 2 May 2013 14: 30
      0
      I think these calculations are needed solely to justify the application for the delivery of cartridges, and nothing more
      1. Droid
        Droid 2 May 2013 14: 56
        0
        This is a practice. It was for this reason that machine guns appeared, then the PP, and finally the machine gun became the infantry’s individual weapon. Because the density of fire is the simplest, cheapest and only sufficiently effective way to perform a fire mission.
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 2 May 2013 16: 01
          0
          of course, you are right in some ways, although I remain of my opinion that at a distance of already 400 m, automatic fire is more likely to have a psychological factor (plus an increased consumption of ammunition). However, by and large, we seem to be arguing about ways to solve this problem. You - for a lightweight, cheaper low-impulse cartridge, I - for a more powerful 2-bullet
          1. Retriever
            Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 38
            0
            Guys, do not argue, enter body armor in your equation (for example, take the combined arms 6B23-1). And then you are so good at hitting targets and a little pulsed and 2 bullets that you just want to play a bit. Oh, I didn’t notice the discussion above, but still I won’t take the post, since the cartridge 7,62 has not been modernized for a long time and therefore can be inferior to 5,45 in penetration. But if you bring to mind, then you should get interesting results.
            1. ramsi
              ramsi 4 May 2013 20: 26
              0
              5mm has exhausted the possibilities of improvement. The plot is developed, almost completely. 6.5 - prolong this agony for some time, much less than 5mm reigned. 7.62 - seems optimal on all counts
  29. Droid
    Droid 3 May 2013 20: 34
    0
    Quote: Ivan Tarasov
    Carriages should be developed for domestic grenade launchers.


    What would a machine with a grenade launcher weigh 10-15 kg?
    Quote: Ivan Tarasov

    And on the machine, put an effective DT, and not reinvent the wheel.

    No DT will help, I already explained why. And this bike gave the required excess of efficiency, and unlike other machines where "effective" DTs were used.
  30. Droid
    Droid 4 May 2013 10: 36
    0
    Quote: Retriever
    Guys, do not argue, enter body armor in your equation (for example, take the combined arms 6B23-1). And then you are so good at hitting targets and a little pulsed and 2 bullets that you just want to play a bit. Oh, I didn’t notice the discussion above, but still I won’t take the post, since the cartridge 7,62 has not been modernized for a long time and therefore can be inferior to 5,45 in penetration. But if you bring to mind, then you should get interesting results.

    Let's introduce body armor.
    Are you aware that the area of ​​bulletproof protection of the frontal projection is only 7,5-8 square dm? This equals 1/8 of the area of ​​the growth and 1/6 of the waist figure.
    And carcass hits are distributed as follows:
    Head-neck - 20-22%
    chest-abdomen — 18-20%
    limbs - 58-60%, with at least half of hits with bone fractures.
    Body armor, in the most ideal case (full protection of the chest-abdomen), is able to protect against 18-20% of hits. And since in reality bulletproof protection does not completely cover the chest-belly, then generally from 12-15% of hits.
    Everything else makes its way either to 500 m, or nothing is covered at all.
    1. Retriever
      Retriever 4 May 2013 11: 15
      0
      Well, I won’t argue that way, and I can’t refute it.
      If it is really stitched from 500 meters.
  31. Droid
    Droid 4 May 2013 11: 15
    0
    Quote: Retriever
    Body armor, in addition to plates, also consists of something. And this material no longer holds 10 meters, but also provides protection.

    This is something - splinter protection, which makes its way up to 500 m.
    Quote: Retriever

    But for some reason, we look at the most protected place and say it is so small.

    We are looking at a place that not breaking throughand it’s still small. The rest can not be watched because it makes its way.
  32. Droid
    Droid 4 May 2013 15: 18
    +1
    Quote: Retriever
    Well, I won’t argue that way, and I can’t refute it.
    If it is really stitched from 500 meters.

    General body armor 6B23-1
    Adopted in 2003 year.
    Manufacturer - NPP ClAAS.
    Designed to replace Vest series vests (6B11, 6B12 and 6B13)
    Protection Area:
    - general (1 class) - 48 sq.dm., anti-shatter resistance -540 m / s., 1 g, 50%;
    - chest (2, 3 or 4 class) - 8 sq. Dm.;
    - back (2 or 3 class) - 8 sq. Dm.

    As you can see the resistance of general protection (class 1) splinter 1 gr. 540 m / s, 50% penetration. The energy of such a fragment is E = 145 J (~ 15 kgm.) The 5,45 assault rifle has such energy (15 kgm) at a distance between 800 and 900 m. But not enough of this, there is such a 5,45 caliber pistol - PSM. Its muzzle energy is ~ 125 J (~ 13 kg), class 1 does not protect against it (and protects it from PM), according to GOST R 50744-95, class 2 is needed for protection against PSM as for TT. All the same, a bullet with a steel core is not a fragment of arbitrary shape that flies into the bronick as God sends, the bullet always comes at the tip. With an energy of ~ 13 kgm, a 5,45 machine gun has a range of 900-1000 m.
  33. Retriever
    Retriever 4 May 2013 17: 34
    0
    OK thanks.
  34. -Dmitry-
    -Dmitry- 7 May 2013 07: 59
    0
    Very controversial article.

    In fact, Fedorov was the first to reduce the caliber, and it was still in the late thirties, that is, when the intermediate cartridge was only in plans, and quite distant. Even then, Fedorov proposed a caliber of intermediate ammunition equal to 6-6,5 millimeters, that is, back then we could go far ahead, well, of course, with a normal approach to the design of ammunition and no one would have known about 5,45 at all, but not fused.


    A mistake of about 20 years, Fedorov offered his cartridge of caliber 6.5 mm. back in the early 10s of the 20th century. well, and to be honest, all the same, Fedorov’s cartridge can no longer be considered intermediate by modern standards - at the beginning of the 20th century, of course, the beginning of the 21st century is gone (even at the end of the 20th century).

    In addition, I personally have repeatedly heard the opinion that it is much better to injure the enemy from the economic side, since money will be spent on his treatment, while the coffin will be much cheaper. Even if you take this justification seriously, you can not ignore that the wounded may remain for a long time may not be a full-fledged, but completely combat unit. In other words, 5,45x39, as well as 5,56x45, do not give that stopping effect as 7,62x39.


    Also a very controversial statement. When it enters the bone, 5.45 is so fragmented that the bone has to be amputated (in the field). When it gets into soft tissues saturated with moisture, 5.45 creates a large pulsating cavity, roughly speaking, it is stuffed from the inside, because such a cavity causes heavy bleeding.
  35. Witold
    Witold 19 June 2013 23: 50
    +1
    For a long time there is information that IWI designers are planning to create a version of the Tawor assault rifle in a bullpup layout under a 7,62 caliber cartridge, since 5,56 does not meet the requirements that currently apply to weapons.
    The author of the article clearly caught a "duck" somewhere. He posted an article most likely to follow the controversy on the forum. I have been working for IWI for a very long time, which is in the past IMI. And I ask all questions on this topic to me.
  36. _denn
    _denn 27 June 2013 14: 27
    0
    Quote: Droid
    Ballistics 5,45 better than 7,62x39

    because the recoil of 7.62 will be greater, respectively, and the dispersion of bullets in automatic shooting. As for the stability of the bullets of these calibers, it is almost the same. I saw such an experiment: putting a paper target behind the bushes, they shoot at it at the store 5.45 and 7.62. About half of the bullets of both caliber begin to tumble (judging by the shape of the holes).
    1. Droid
      Droid 27 June 2013 15: 32
      0
      The return to ballistics is irrelevant. Ballistics (external) is primarily a trajectory. About the bushes. Above, I gave a video of such an experiment.