Military Review

Loyal army ...

62
Loyal army ...An old photograph: November 1989, Berlin Wall, literally saddled by thousands of jubilant crowds. Sad and confused faces only a group of people in the foreground - the GDR border guards. More recently, terrible for the enemies and rightly aware of themselves as the elite of the country, they suddenly turned into extras on this holiday. But this was not the worst for them ...


“Once I happened to be in the house of the former captain of the National People’s Army (NNA) GDR. He graduated from our higher military school, a good programmer, but for three years now he has been without work. And on the neck of the family: a wife, two kids.

From him for the first time I heard what was destined to be heard many times.
“You betrayed us ...” the former captain will say. Say calmly, without anguish, gathering the will in a fist.

No, he was not a “political commissar,” he did not cooperate with the Stasi and nevertheless lost everything. ”

These are lines from the book of Col. Mikhail Boltunov “ZGV: The Bitter Road to Home”.

And then the author turns to himself and to all of us: “So, it is. We betrayed the GDR, the NNA, this captain? Or are these just the emotions of an offended person? ”

The problem, however, is much deeper: having abandoned the soldiers and officers to the mercy of the army we created, haven't we also betrayed ourselves? And was it possible to keep the NNA, even under a different name and with a changed organizational structure, but as a faithful ally of Moscow?

We will try to understand, of course, as far as possible, in a small article, especially since these issues have not lost their relevance to this day, especially against the background of NATO expansion to the east and the spread of US military-political influence in the post-Soviet space.

Disappointment and humiliation

So, in the 1990 year, the unification of Germany occurred, which caused euphoria from both Western and Eastern Germans. It is finished! The great nation regained its unity, at last the hated Berlin Wall finally collapsed. However, as often happens, unbridled joy was replaced by bitter disappointment. Of course, not for all people in Germany, no. According to opinion polls, most of them do not regret uniting the country.

The disappointment affected mainly some of the inhabitants of the submerged GDR. Pretty quickly, they realized: in essence, the Anschluss took place - the absorption of their homeland by their western neighbor.

The most severely affected were the officers and noncommissioned officers of the former NNA. He did not become part of the Bundeswehr, and was simply dissolved. Most former GDR troops, including generals and colonels, were fired. At the same time, service in the NNA did not qualify for either military or civil employment history. Those lucky enough to put on the form of recent opponents were demoted.

As a result, East German officers were forced to stand for hours in queues at the labor exchange and destitute in search of work - often low paid and unskilled.

And worse than that. In his book, Mikhail Boltunov quotes the words of the last Minister of Defense of the GDR, Admiral Theodor Hoffman: “With the unification of Germany, the NNA was dissolved. Many professional military personnel have been discriminated against. ”

Discrimination, simply put - humiliation. But it could not be otherwise, for the well-known Latin proverb says: "Woe to the vanquished!" And woe is doubly, if the army was not crushed in battle, but simply betrayed by both its own and the Soviet leadership.

The former commander-in-chief of the ZGV, General Matvey Burlakov, spoke directly about this in an interview: "Gorbachev and the others betrayed the Union." And did this betrayal begin with the betrayal of his faithful allies, who ensured, among other things, the geopolitical security of the USSR in the western direction?

However, many will find the last statement controversial and will note the irreversibility and even the spontaneity of the process of unification of the two Germaniums. But the point is not that the FRG and the GDR were to unite in the inevitable way, but how this could have happened. And the absorption of the eastern neighbor by West Germany was not the only way.

What was the alternative that would allow the NNA officer corps to occupy a worthy position in the new Germany and remain loyal to the USSR? And what is more important for us: did the Soviet Union have real opportunities to maintain its military-political presence in Germany, not allowing NATO to expand east? To answer these questions we need to make a small historical excursion.

In 1949, a new republic appeared on the map - the GDR. It was created as a response to education in the American, British and French occupation zones of Germany. Interestingly, Joseph Stalin did not seek to create the GDR, having initiated the unification of Germany, but on the condition that it would not join NATO.

However, the former allies refused. Proposals for the construction of the Berlin Wall came to Stalin even at the end of 40, but the Soviet leader rejected this idea, considering it to be a disreputable USSR in the eyes of the world community.

Recalling the history of the birth of the GDR, one should also take into account the personality of the first Chancellor of the West German state, Konrad Adenauer, who, according to former Soviet ambassador to Germany Vladimir Semenov, “cannot be considered only a political opponent of Russia. He had an irrational hatred of the Russians. ”

Birth and formation of NNA

Under these conditions, and with the direct participation of the USSR 18, January 1956 was created by the NNA, which quickly turned into a powerful force. In turn, the GDR navy became the most efficient along with the Soviet in the Warsaw Pact.

This is not an exaggeration, because the Prussian and Saxon lands, which were once the most militant German states and had strong armies, became part of the GDR. This is especially true, of course, the Prussians. It was the Prussians and Saxons who formed the basis of the officer corps of the first German Empire, then the Reichswehr, then the Wehrmacht, and finally the NNA.

The traditional German discipline and love of military affairs, the strong military traditions of the Prussian officers, the rich combat experience of previous generations, multiplied by advanced military equipment and the achievements of Soviet military thought, made the GDR army an indestructible force in Europe.

It is noteworthy that in some way the dreams of the most far-sighted German and Russian statesmen at the turn of the XIX – XX centuries, who dreamed of a military alliance of the Russian and German empires, were embodied in the NNA.

The strength of the army of the GDR was in combat training of its personnel, because the number of the NNA always remained relatively low: in the 1987 year it numbered thousands of soldiers and officers in the 120, second to, say, the Polish Army, the second largest army in the Warsaw Pact .

However, in the event of a military conflict with NATO, the Poles were supposed to fight in minor areas of the front - in Austria and Denmark. In turn, the NNA was given more serious tasks: to fight on the main line - against the troops operating from the territory of Germany, where the first echelon of the NATO ground forces was deployed, that is, the Bundeswehr itself, as well as the most efficient divisions of Americans, British and French.

The Soviet leadership was trusted by the German brothers in arms. And not in vain. The commander of the 3 armies of the ZGV in the GDR and later the deputy chief of staff of the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, General Valentin Varennikov, wrote in his memoirs: “The national people's army of the GDR actually grew before my eyes from zero to a formidable modern army equipped with everything necessary and capable of acting no worse than the Soviet troops. "

Эту точку зрения в сущности подтверждает и Матвей Бурлаков: «Пик холодной войны был в начале 80-х. Оставалось дать сигнал – и все бы ринулось. Все боеготово, снаряды в tanks, осталось в ствол засунуть – и вперед. Все бы сожгли, все бы разрушили там у них. Военные объекты я имею в виду – не города. Я часто встречался с председателем военного комитета НАТО Клаусом Науманном. Он меня как-то спрашивает: «Я видел планы армии ГДР, которые вы утверждали. Почему вы не начали наступление?». Мы пытались эти планы собрать, но кто-то утаил, снял копии. И Науманн согласился с нашим расчетом, что мы должны быть на Ла-Манше в течение недели. Я говорю: «Мы же не агрессоры, зачем мы пойдем на вас? Мы всегда ждали, что вы первые начнете». Так объясняли им. Мы же не можем сказать, что мы первые должны были начать».

Note: Naumann saw the plans of the army of the GDR, whose tanks were among the first to reach the English Channel and, according to his confession, no one could effectively prevent them.

From the point of view of intellectual training, the NNA also stood at a high level: by the middle of the 80s, in its ranks 95 percent of the officer corps had higher or secondary specialized education, about 30 percent of officers graduated from military academies, 35 percent - higher military schools.

In short, at the end of 80's, the army of the GDR was ready for any ordeal, but the country was not. Unfortunately, the combat power of the armed forces could not compensate for the socio-economic problems faced by the GDRs by the beginning of the last quarter of the 20th century. Erich Honecker, who headed the country in 1971, was guided by the Soviet model of building socialism, which essentially distinguished him from many leaders of other Eastern European countries.

Honecker's key goal in the socio-economic sphere is to improve the well-being of the people, in particular, through the development of housing construction and an increase in pensions.

Alas, good undertakings in this area led to a decrease in investment in the development of production and renovation of obsolete equipment, the depreciation of which was 50 percent in industry and 65 percent in agriculture. In general, the East German economy, like the Soviet one, developed along an extensive path.

Defeat without a shot

The arrival of Mikhail Gorbachev to power in 1985 year complicated the relationship between the two countries - Honecker, being a conservative, reacted negatively to the restructuring. And this is against the background of the fact that in the GDR the attitude towards Gorbachev as the initiator of the reforms was enthusiastic. In addition, at the end of 80-x began a massive departure of citizens of the GDR in Germany. Gorbachev made it clear to his East German colleague that the Soviet assistance of the GDR directly depended on the implementation of reforms by Berlin.

The rest is well known: in 1989, Honecker was removed from all his posts, a year later the GDR was absorbed by West Germany, and a year later the Soviet Union ceased to exist. The Russian leadership hastened to withdraw from Germany almost half a millionth group, equipped with thousands of tanks and armored vehicles 12, which became an unconditional geopolitical and geostrategic defeat and accelerated the entry of yesterday's allies of the USSR under the Warsaw Pact in NATO.

But all these are dry lines about relatively recently past events, followed by the drama of thousands of NNA officers and their families. With sadness in their eyes and pain in their hearts, they looked at the last parade of Russian troops 31 on August 1994 of the year in Berlin. Devoted, humiliated, useless to anyone, they witnessed the departure of the once allied army, which, without a single shot, lost the Cold War with them.

And after all, just five years before, Gorbachev had promised not to leave the GDR to the mercy of fate. Did the Soviet leader have grounds for such statements? On the one hand, it would seem, no. As we have already noted, at the end of 80's the flow of refugees from the GDR to the FRG increased. After Honecker was dismissed, the leadership of the GDR did not demonstrate either the will or the determination to save the country and to take truly effective measures to this end that would allow Germany to be reunited on an equal footing. Declarative statements, not supported by practical steps, in this case do not count.

But there is another side to the coin. According to Boltunov, neither France nor the United Kingdom did not consider the question of the reunification of Germany relevant. This is understandable: in Paris, they feared a strong and united Germany, in less than a century twice crushing the military power of France. And of course, it was not in the geopolitical interests of the Fifth Republic to see a united and strong Germany at its borders.

In turn, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher adhered to a political line aimed at preserving the balance of power between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as well as respecting the conditions of the Final Act in Helsinki, the rights and responsibilities of four states for post-war Germany.

Against this background, London’s desire to develop cultural and economic ties with the GDRs in the second half of 80 does not seem accidental, and when it became clear that German unification was inevitable, the British leadership suggested extending this process by 10 – 15 years.

And perhaps the most important thing: in the matter of containing the processes aimed at uniting Germany, the British leadership relied on the support of Moscow and Paris. And even more: the German Chancellor Helmut Kohl himself was not the first to initiate the absorption of his eastern neighbor by West Germany, but he advocated the creation of a confederation, putting forward a ten-point program to implement his idea.

Thus, in 1990, the Kremlin and Berlin had every chance to realize the idea that was once proposed by Stalin: the creation of a united, but neutral and non-NATO member Germany.

Preservation of a limited contingent of Soviet, American, British and French troops on the territory of united Germany would be the guarantor of German neutrality, and the German armed forces created on an equal basis would not allow the spread of pro-Western sentiments in the army and would not turn former NNA officers into rogue states.

Personality factor

All this was quite realizable in practice and met the foreign policy interests of both London and Paris, Moscow and Berlin. So why did Gorbachev and his entourage, who had the opportunity to rely on the support of France and England to defend the GDRs, did not do this and easily decided to absorb their eastern neighbor to West Germany, eventually changing the balance of power in Europe in favor of NATO?

From the point of view of Boltunov, the determining factor in this case was played by the personality factor: “... Events took an off-design turn after a meeting of foreign ministers, at which E. A. Shevardnadze (USSR Minister of Foreign Affairs - Avt.) Went into direct violation of the Gorbachev directive.

One thing is the reunification of two independent German states, the other is the Anschluss, that is, the absorption of the GDR by the Federal Republic. It is one thing to overcome the division of Germany as a cardinal step towards eliminating the division of Europe. The other is the transfer of the leading edge of the split of the continent from the Elbe to the Oder or farther to the east.

Shevardnadze gave an explanation of his behavior very simple - I learned this from the presidential aide (USSR. - Auth.) Anatoly Chernyaev: “Genscher asked for this. And Genscher is a good man. ”

Perhaps this explanation too simplifies the picture associated with the unification of the country, but it is obvious that such a rapid absorption of the GDR by West Germany is a direct consequence of the short-sightedness and weakness of the Soviet political leadership, based on the logic of its decisions, more on the positive image of the USSR in the Western the world, rather than the interests of their own state.

Ultimately, the collapse of both the GDR and the socialist camp as a whole, as well as the collapse of the Soviet Union, provides a vivid example of the fact that the determining factor in history is not some objective processes, but the role of the personality. The entire past of mankind testifies to this indisputably.

After all, there were no socio-economic prerequisites for entering the historical arena of the ancient Macedonians, if not for the outstanding personal qualities of the kings Philip and Alexander.

The French would never have brought much of Europe to their knees if they were not Emperor Napoleon. And in Russia there would not have been an October revolution in Russia, the most disgraceful in the history of the country of Brest Peace, just as the Bolsheviks would not have won the Civil War, if not the personality of Vladimir Lenin.

All these are only the most vivid examples, which undeniably testify to the determining role of the individual in history.

There is no doubt that nothing like the events of the early 90s could have happened in Eastern Europe if Yury Andropov were at the head of the Soviet Union. A man of strong will, in the field of foreign policy, he invariably proceeded from the country's geopolitical interests, and they demanded the preservation of the military presence in Central Europe and the comprehensive strengthening of the military power of the NNA, regardless of the attitude of the Americans and their allies.

The scale of Gorbachev’s personality, as well as his closest associates, objectively did not correspond to the complex of complex domestic and foreign policy problems that the Soviet Union faced.

The same can be said about Egon Krenz, who replaced Honecker as SED Secretary General and was not a strong and strong-willed person. This is the opinion of Krentz, General Marcus Wolf, who led the foreign intelligence of the GDR.

One of the properties of weak politicians is the inconsistency in following the chosen course. So it was with Gorbachev: in December 1989 of the year at the Plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU, he unequivocally stated that the Soviet Union would not abandon the GDR to its fate. A year later, the Kremlin allowed West Germany to implement the Anschluss of its eastern neighbor.

Kohl felt the political weakness of the Soviet leadership during his visit to Moscow in February 1990, because it was after this that he began to more vigorously pursue the course of reunification of Germany and, most importantly, he began to insist on maintaining her membership in NATO.

And as a result: in modern Germany, the number of American troops exceeds the 50 of thousands of soldiers and officers stationed, including on the territory of the former GDR, and the NATO military machine is deployed near Russian borders. And in the event of a military conflict, the well-trained and trained officers of the former National Independent Unable Party would no longer be able to help us. And they are unlikely to want ...

As for England and France, their fears of German unification were not in vain: the latter rather quickly took leading positions in the European Union, strengthened its strategic and economic position in Central and Eastern Europe, gradually ousting British capital from there.
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  1. Apollo
    Apollo 20 March 2013 08: 19 New
    19
    short, call a spade a spade-TRIEF am


    The story of one betrayal: how Gorbachev Germany united

    The German Democratic Republic officially became part of the Federal Republic of Germany. Divided into several decades, the German nation, thus, gained state unity.

    True, even then, many East Germans called the incident a much more appropriate name - Anschluss GDR from Germany. But the key player of the then world arena, the USSR, represented by Mikhail Gorbachev and his entourage, agreed to such conditions for the reconstruction of a single German state put forward by the leadership of the FRG. Moreover, the then Soviet leader began the process of reunification of Germany behind the leadership of the GDR - from separate negotiations with West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl and the US President. And only then the leaders of the GDR were informed of Gorbachev’s intentions to “reunite” Germany.

    The betrayal of the GDR by the seemingly main ally of the USSR? Undoubtedly. But the main losers from such a union were not even East Germans: the German nation, at the very least, was reunited. The main loser in the end was ... the Russian nation, which, after the collapse of the USSR, which soon became a divided nation. She repeated, so to speak, the fate of the Germans in the late 1940's.

    Read in full: http://www.km.ru/world/2012/10/03/istoriya-sssr/693871-istoriya-odnogo-predatels
    tva-kak-gorbachev-germaniyu-obedinyal
    1. Papakiko
      Papakiko 20 March 2013 09: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Apollon
      The main loser in the end was ... the Russian nation, which, after the collapse of the USSR, which soon became a divided nation. She repeated, so to speak, the fate of the Germans in the late 1940's.

      For several centuries, the Russian nation has been "painted", and "repeating the fate of the Germans" is not entirely appropriate.

      About the "betrayal" of the NNA.

      The "Baltic relatives" of the USSR were very zealous and agiteli still trumpeting their "lack of independence" by all means, and in those "dashing years" the wind of "freedom" walked not only in their "sore" heads.
      With which REDUCED the Germans of the GDR pounced on the "Berlin Wall" leash confirms that everything was “normal” in the minds of not only the population. Just the case with the Germans: this NATION which has something to show on the pages of history! .
    2. baltika-18
      baltika-18 20 March 2013 11: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: Apollon
      True, even then, many East Germans called the incident a much more appropriate name - the "Anschluss" of the GDR by the FRG

      The author is right. Oriental (they are called Ossi) Germans and Western (Wessi) have a different mentality. In the language of Westerners there are a lot of Americanisms, in the language of the Oriental, on the contrary, Rusisms, in the same words such as "dacha", "borscht", etc. Vessi prefers to meet friends in a restaurant, Oriental prefers a home feast. Very few marriages between East and West Germans. Only 17% are negative about the socialist past. Every fourth German regrets the fall of the Berlin Wall with either one or the other sides. Unemployment in the eastern part is 2 times higher than in the western. Conclusion: the guys of capitalism, like us, took a sip.
      And in conclusion, the question is: is it not time for all former socialist camps to build their bright future, based on the values ​​of socialism, under the leadership of Russia, without looking back at Washington and others like them Zionist signs ?.
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 20 March 2013 11: 27 New
        +4
        What a wonderful article. Everything is called by its proper name, without any horseshoe and obscure hints. Thanks to the author. good
      2. Rus2012
        20 March 2013 12: 49 New
        +3
        Quote: baltika-18
        The East (they are called Ossi) Germans and the West (Wessi) have a different mentality. In the language of the West there are many Americanisms, in the language of the East, on the contrary, Rusisms, in the same words such as "dacha", "borsch", etc. Prefer to meet friends in a restaurant, the Oriental prefer a home feast. Very few marriages between East and West Germans. Only 17% negatively relate to the socialist past. Every fourth German regrets the fall of the Berlin Wall on either side. in the eastern part in xnumx p for higher than zapadnoy.Vyvod: drank a capitalism guys like us.
        And in conclusion, the question is: is it not time for all former socialist camps to build their bright future, based on the values ​​of socialism, under the leadership of Russia, without looking back at Washington and others like them Zionist signs ?.

        You are right, dear colleague, it is!
        I often have a child with both the Aussies and the Wesses ...
        These are the conclusions:
        - they misunderstand each other
        - Aussie is much friendlier and more sociable, the collective spirit prevails
        - there are Germans in Deutschland: 1sortes - Wessi, 2-ossi, 3- “Russian” Germans (immigrants) ...
        Moreover, all - in fact, gravitate to varying degrees towards community and collectivism.
        Although enthusiasm for the public (work, for example) is less evident in the 3 variety. They pretty spoiled with us. They say the government’s calls - to tighten their belts, this is temporary, - “We know yours temporarily, passed” ...
      3. DmitriRazumov
        DmitriRazumov 20 March 2013 16: 23 New
        0
        The Oriental quickly felt the charms of Anschluess. Western monsters received eastern enterprises. kotor. created over decades including with economic, scientific and technical assistance from the USSR for free. Siemens AG, for example, bought ROBOTRON, a well-known manufacturer of electronics and computer equipment in the eastern block for 1 brand. For several months, the eastern competitor was declared unprofitable and liquidated. Thousands of highly qualified employees throughout East Germany were thrown out onto the street. Currently, in the eastern part, unemployment is much higher than in the western. West Germans consider their eastern "brothers" subhuman. There is discrimination on this basis when applying for a job. Euphoria ended in a severe hangover.
  2. Predator-74
    Predator-74 20 March 2013 08: 26 New
    +2
    I am sure that in the near future the alliance of Russia and Germany will govern all of Europe.
    1. nokki
      nokki 20 March 2013 09: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: Predator-74

      I am sure that in the near future the alliance of Russia and Germany will govern all of Europe.


      A few quotes:

      "At present, the number of Muslims in Germany reaches 3,5 million people. They have become the third largest religious group after Catholics and Protestants. The natural population growth in the Turkish diaspora (1,2 – 1,5% per year) remains significant, and therefore their number the share in the country's population is increasing, while the population of Germany as a whole is aging and shrinking.

      The situation is aggravated by the fact that 1 – 2% of Muslims living in Germany, according to the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, participate in organizations whose activities and goals can be considered as unconstitutional, and every third mosque is considered as a potential center of Muslim extremism. According to opinion polls, 10 – 12% of Muslims are in positions hostile to democracy.

      The result of the wrong immigration state policy of Germany was that almost half a million ethnic Germans converted to Islam. Which, in principle, is becoming very common in other Western European countries ... "

      Is it they who will be with us together? The Germans, as a nation, are doomed in historical terms. By the way, we are now stepping on the same rake that they are! I am talking about migrant workers and immigrants from the Caucasian republics.
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 20 March 2013 11: 24 New
        0
        Quote: nokki
        The Germans, as a nation, are doomed in historical terms.

        I do not agree here. Eastern Germany has very strong Russian influence. And it is the eastern part of Germany that in the near future may become the locomotive of unity with Russia. It depends on the situation in the world and on what kind of society of world civilization we can offer.
        1. Aleks28
          Aleks28 20 March 2013 11: 33 New
          0
          Quote: baltika-18
          Eastern Germany has a very strong Russian influence

          no This is where you read this? Not a great example, Merkel (East German), Schroeder (West German). Question: Under which chancellor Was there more mutual understanding between Russia and Germany?
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 20 March 2013 12: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: Allex28
            This is where you read this?

            My friends live there, worked once together. They told me a lot of interesting things, which you can’t read in the newspapers.
          2. Rus2012
            20 March 2013 12: 55 New
            0
            Quote: Allex28
            Merkel (East German), Schroeder (West German). Question: Under which Chancellor Was there more mutual understanding between Russia and Germany?


            With Kolya! laughing

            Alas, Germany is not sovereign ...
            And what you consider, dear colleague, more friendly is the oversight of their cartridge, tobish of Uncle Sam ...
        2. aviamed90
          aviamed90 20 March 2013 12: 54 New
          +1
          Strange ... Yes, you look at the cities of eastern Germany! They are almost empty. Residents all as one on earnings! Who in western Germany, who where! I saw this situation only in one place - in Ukraine. All residents are forced to survive. There is no work, everything suddenly turned out to be paid, and the East Germans themselves turned out to be people of the 2 grade. West Germans admit that they cannot "digest" the former GDR. Industry is destroyed, incomes are very small (compared to West Germans), discrimination is evident. Who will restore it all? And is it necessary?
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 20 March 2013 12: 58 New
            0
            This once again illustrates that the attitude towards the losers is appropriate. Regardless of their nationality. The price of betrayal of the GDR by the leadership of the USSR was the loss of an ally and the broken fate of an entire generation and their children.
      2. Rus2012
        20 March 2013 12: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: nokki
        The Germans, as a nation, are doomed in historical terms.

        - they will move to us, which by the way time ... laughing
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 20 March 2013 12: 59 New
          +2
          Quote: Rus2012
          they will move to us, which by the way time.

          I'm not against. Romka, according to the Reinhold there, was a cool man, he was a friend, he remained a friend.
    2. Per se.
      Per se. 20 March 2013 09: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Predator-74
      union of Russia and Germany
      One can probably say that the Russians and Germans are complementary in character. In any case, this was the case from Peter the Great until the 1914 year, the First World War crossed out everything. It is doubtful that an alliance with Germany is now possible. Germany is the main donor of the European Union, and the Germans have their own self-interest, the European Union will most likely be bent, or rather, transformed into the approximate borders of the Third Reich, this will probably be the new Germany, which itself wants to rule the remaining Europe, without Russia.
      1. Rus2012
        20 March 2013 13: 00 New
        +2
        Quote: Per se.
        Russians and Germans complement each other in character. In any case, this was the case from Peter the Great until the 1914 year, the First World War crossed out everything.

        indeed it is ...
        And the fact that we are fighting each other all the time is backstage pits all the time ...
        Because, if there is a union of Russians and Germans-they will all come kirdyk, and all over the world ....

        Recall all the advice of Chancellor Bismarck and his words about the Russians ... And regularly, the Germans always did the opposite. Why do you think?
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 20 March 2013 13: 43 New
          +1
          Quote: Rus2012
          Because if there is a union of Russians and Germans, they will all receive kirdyk, and all over the world ...

          That's for sure .... Himself such thoughts attend ....
          Quote: Rus2012
          Recall all the advice of Chancellor Bismarck and his words about the Russians ... And regularly, the Germans always did the opposite. Why do you think

          The answer is simple, colleague. Zionism and some people's dreams of world domination are then over.
          And mind you, the bloody Second World War has passed, there are many victims on both sides (Russians and Germans), but there is no hatred.
        2. Per se.
          Per se. 20 March 2013 13: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: Rus2012
          Recall all the advice of Chancellor Bismarck and his words about the Russians ... And regularly, the Germans always did the opposite. Why do you think?
          I think this is from the category of "unity and the struggle of opposites." In general, in the Russian Empire almost all the tsars married Germans, being themselves, to all things, half Germans. Funny right? Many Germans lived in Russia, occupying various posts. And now, here, - World War I, St. Petersburg is even renamed Petrograd, although there was also Orenburg, and Yekaterinburg, and the same Kronstadt ... In general, as they say, one step from love to hate, me and the Germans just like that. It seems to me that the Germans understood socialism best of all, both National Socialism and socialism itself, at the time - "forever together, forever together, the GDR and the Soviet Union" ... Two countries that do not exist, but which can be reborn in new quality, a new super Germany in Europe and a new (or old) single and powerful Russia in Eurasia. Perhaps, with the revival of socialism, it seems that old Marx was right, in any case, it is very doubtful that consumer society, with the morality of insects, has a bright future, without the theory of the "golden billion" (and this theory is not for us with Germans, she is for the USA).
  3. Tartary
    Tartary 20 March 2013 08: 28 New
    +7
    ".... and the NATO military machine is deployed near the Russian borders. And in the event of a military conflict, the well-trained and trained officers of the former NNA will no longer be able to help us. And they are unlikely to want to ..."

    The main thing is that today both we and they, and our new generations would understand that together we were betrayed by the State Department henchmen - Gorbachev, Shevarnadze and others. Their minions ...
    The history of peoples is certainly a great thing, but there is still a folk history that is no less important ...
    As an example: - in the history of the peoples, Stalin is a tyrant, etc., and in the national history of him (Stalin), we are increasingly lacking ...
  4. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 20 March 2013 08: 31 New
    +6
    In East Germany, there are still many who regret joining, and not only the elderly, but even the youth
    1. Aleks28
      Aleks28 20 March 2013 10: 54 New
      0
      Quote: vladsolo56
      In East Germany, there are still many who regret joining, and not only the elderly, but even the youth

      More than 40% of all respondents.
  5. ed65b
    ed65b 20 March 2013 08: 37 New
    10
    It was not we who betrayed, it was us who betrayed us all. Gorbachev and his entourage. All participated. It's a shame.
  6. Son
    Son 20 March 2013 08: 41 New
    +2
    The betrayal of all and all ... In my opinion, it began in April 1989 (Tiflis events) ... First, they surrendered us.
  7. igor36
    igor36 20 March 2013 08: 41 New
    +3
    One of the properties of weak politicians is the inconsistency in following the chosen course. So it was with Gorbachev: in December 1989 of the year at the Plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU, he unequivocally stated that the Soviet Union would not abandon the GDR to its fate. A year later, the Kremlin allowed West Germany to implement the Anschluss of its eastern neighbor.
    What inconsistency? Everything was according to a clearly established plan in Langley. Influence agent Gorbachev fulfilled all the information given to him.
  8. pinecone
    pinecone 20 March 2013 08: 47 New
    +1
    The National-People’s Army of the GDR was the heiress of the best military traditions of Germany and was a formidable force superior in its moral and combat qualities to the Bundeswehr relaxed by liberal principles.
  9. valokordin
    valokordin 20 March 2013 08: 48 New
    +6
    Quote: Predator-74
    I am sure that in the near future the alliance of Russia and Germany will govern all of Europe.

    I’m not sure that the Americans will do everything to prevent this from happening, but the fact that the leaders of the USSR and Russia betrayed all their allies is an indisputable fact. From the bastard of the first to the last, betrayal went everywhere, betrayed the allies, their people, and explained this with freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of enterprise, but in fact, the uninhabited bourgeoisie and bourgeois members of the ruling party carried out a counter-revolutionary coup, disfigured the consciousness of people, trampled the great ones into mud. achievements and turned people into made it so that to create and work is not prestigious, this is the lot of cattle, but being prestigious, a lackey, a manager, an "economist", a banker, a minister of defense, and just a head of a defense service. It is prestigious to be an official and a traitor. From the former Air Force officer, accept comrade captain NNA words of support and sincere sympathy. I.V. Stalin was a thousand times right.
  10. dark_65
    dark_65 20 March 2013 08: 51 New
    +3
    It's a shame to read, but it is written correctly, it was betrayed, and not only Germans, we betrayed ourselves, and we live with it now. The young generation simply will not understand, but from 40 and older ...
  11. Orik
    Orik 20 March 2013 08: 55 New
    14
    Do not forget the root cause of the events. The Soviet people sold for the lentil soup (and in reality for the promised material benefits) all the achievements of the social state. Humpbacked Judas is only a natural result, the people deserve the ruler of which they have. Here is an inextricable link between the average level of spirituality of the people and the head of state!
    Comrade officers, the flesh of the flesh of the Soviet regime, she nurtured them, cherished and cherished. The lieutenant received twice as much engineer, and this is without additional allowances, not taxed and almost complete content. Where were you when socialism began to turn in ?! Why "... until the last breath of (not) (be) faithful (and) to their People, their Soviet Motherland ..."? So they turned out to be devotees, what you reap is what you reap !!!
    Moderators, do not delete, as the last time a comment. Until they understand the cause-and-effect relationship (and so far they understand little), it will be useless to talk about the change, so the Americans, Gorbachev, the fifth column and others will be to blame. It’s the same as blaming microbes for the illness of the body, and not low immunity and the reasons that made it low.
    1. Son
      Son 20 March 2013 09: 00 New
      +3
      I read ORIC’s koment, and I feel ashamed ... And, I can’t answer his question: “Where were you when socialism began to turn in ?! Why” ... until the last breath would (not) be a devotee (s) to their People, their Soviet Motherland ... "?
    2. Civil
      Civil 20 March 2013 09: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: Orik
      The Soviet people sold for the lentil soup (and in reality for the promised material benefits) all the achievements of the social state.


      jeans, chewing gum, cassettes and other stuff ... and they didn’t hit a finger when they broke a socially oriented state ...
    3. aviamed90
      aviamed90 20 March 2013 12: 57 New
      0
      We honestly served the motherland, not Gorby! And if gentlemen the Communists and others like them brought the power of a traitor, then what is our fault? The fact that we did not unleash another civilian massacre ???
      1. Orik
        Orik 20 March 2013 14: 16 New
        +2
        Civil war, this is a very big issue in the late 80s, early 90s. If we consider the worst variant of GV, then in 17-22 years, 6 million people died. The total losses of the former USSR during the collapse are estimated at 25 million people. “28 million people died in the Great Patriotic War. But if we take the integral characteristics of unborn and prematurely dead people from 1991, the year of the collapse of the Soviet Union, to 2005, then the demographic price of those reforms and transformations amounted to more than 25 million human souls This is a catastrophic loss! " The losses of Russians alone are about 13 million, i.e. in the worst case, you would save if you count 25-6 * 240/170 = 16,5 million people! At best, they would cut the fifth column and reform the country. Many here do not like it, but for this it is necessary to have an outlook, a broader worldview and think, and not just to execute orders and to shoot from pieces of iron.
        1. Woodoo
          Woodoo 20 March 2013 19: 00 New
          0
          Orik, then it was not so obvious. Gorby announced "perestroika", many thought that they would be straightening the problems of stagnation and other disadvantages of the late USSR. EBN played in fear of the GV and the greed of the elites of the Union republics.

          And another moment, NATO would not have missed the GV in Russia, just like Syria has not missed it right now.

          UPD And do not think that it was only in these 2 characters. It was a betrayal of party elites. Gorby's Fool is a current public character. Of those who really destroyed the USSR, there were no people who wanted to shine, so that they could enter history in a similar way. This is a curse forever and ever.
          1. Orik
            Orik 20 March 2013 19: 17 New
            +1
            Everything is not always obvious, wisdom, this ability to choose not between good and evil, but the best option out of many.
            1. Woodoo
              Woodoo 20 March 2013 19: 42 New
              0
              It is believed that this was exactly what was done.
    4. evgenm55
      evgenm55 20 March 2013 13: 01 New
      0
      I completely agree, Orik. I always said that they had the opportunity to eat with impunity ..... to eat a hamburger and a guy on all channels, they sold their homeland. They gave blood that was shed by great-grandfathers and grandfathers. But the humpback with shevarnadze still pulled up until they died.
  12. feanor
    feanor 20 March 2013 09: 07 New
    +4
    fool I, as born already in the Russian Federation, declare that this is a shame ...
    Just in shock, how could you tear everything out so stupidly for sausage and jeans ...
    1. Orik
      Orik 20 March 2013 13: 16 New
      0
      The answer lies outside the material dimension. In the USSR, with all external achievements, there was a significant failure in the field of the spirit. “A man sounds proudly,” here he is a hymn to a man who became the forerunner of hedonism. Materialist doctrine has become a transitional stage between empire and capitalism.
      What is pride? Elder: Know, brother John, that pride is the beginning, root and source of all sin and all lawlessness. “Pride has five steps, and in order to understand these steps, one must first understand that the blessings the proud is proud of are also of five kinds, namely:
      natural benefits, that is, quick wit, beauty, courage, and the like;
      the second type is the benefits acquired, such as knowledge, wisdom, skill, and the like;
      the third is random goods, such as wealth, fame, position, and the like;
      the fourth is strong-willed,
      the fifth is spiritual blessings, that is, the gift of prophecy, miracles and the like. ”
      So, brother John, at the first stage of pride is the person who, possessing any of these blessings, does not recognize that he received them from God, but believes that he has them by himself, in a natural way.
      The second stage of pride is when a person admits that these blessings were given to him from God, but not for nothing, but because they rely on him as supposedly worthy of it.
      The third level of pride is when someone thinks that he has some talents, which he, however, does not have.
      The fourth step of pride is when someone defames others and wants to be revered by all as more worthy than them.
      The fifth, and last, step of pride is when a person comes to the point that he defames the sacred laws and does not obey them in the manner prescribed by the holy fathers.
      Know also, brother John, and remember that pride has twelve daughters: vanity, curiosity, an offering of the mind, boasting, laziness, insolence, a hypocritical confession, self-justification, apostasy, self-will, self-determination, and complete association with sin. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/put/43370.htm

      Socialism did not have, does not and will not have "tools" to combat this scourge, and indeed many others. Therefore, "... when a person admits that these blessings were given to him from God, but not for nothing, but because they rely on him as supposedly worthy of that.", And then society begins to consider it "worthy" of more, then morality breaks down in the name of blessings. So he sells the total for "sausage and jeans", and they believed in the 80s that the Western abundance of goods would be added to the existing social benefits, and the result was a flourishing of hedonism. Therefore, according to Senka, what they were looking for, they got ... Only the Church (not to be confused with the church bureaucracy), as the divine institution headed by Christ, has "tools" to deal with this disaster, and the high level of social justice, which is undoubtedly necessary in society, but for this the majority of society members consciously (!) must abandon part of freedom and material wealth in favor of the weak.
  13. pa_nik
    pa_nik 20 March 2013 09: 16 New
    +2
    Read. That's right ... But, in turn, I think that there are more devotees .. we are all among them. recourse
  14. Egoza
    Egoza 20 March 2013 09: 18 New
    +1
    Just those who continued to defend Soviet power were too few, and they were used to believing that "the party is our helm." And those who longed to join the West, that is, to become "owners" - a dime a dozen. Well, people were sure that if they had the opportunity - they would become millionaires! So they played it out. And it’s time to judge Gorbachev for a long time. So that he hiccups both in this and in the next world!
  15. Strezhevchanin
    Strezhevchanin 20 March 2013 09: 30 New
    +3
    Quote: feanor
    how could you tear everything out so stupidly for sausage and jeans.

    When someone like Gorby is at the helm, no matter how, the main thing is to shave and the point is not in sausage and chewing gum! Unfortunately, very many (from the management team, as well as the KGB) wanted to realize their own, for their own benefit and not the interests of the country-people. Well, they helped us of course, they always help and will help.
  16. pa_nik
    pa_nik 20 March 2013 09: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: Egoza
    And those who longed to join the West, that is, to become "owners" - a dime a dozen


    You can’t argue, everything seemed beautiful ... After all, you can’t consider a problem for a huge country with incredible resources to solve a number of issues: build up “jeans”, feed sandwiches (hamburgers), give residents a drink of “cola” and ... continue the ideological confrontation, showing and telling , "as is" about LGBT people, "liberals" and other "delights" of Foreign countries .. am Unfortunately, EVERYTHING has BEEN DRAINED ... and, apparently, ALL are to blame for this situation.
  17. Corporal
    Corporal 20 March 2013 09: 32 New
    +3
    Enough already pour someone else’s ashes on themselves and others on their heads. On such a scale, causes and effects take centuries to form, and blaming one person for everything is self-deception. As well as blaming yourself for what to influence there is neither the strength nor the means.

    We rode the USSR, we betrayed the Germans, we will lay down the states, we will write standing, we, we!

    Or in another way - Americans terrorize the world, Americans snicker, Germans shit!

    An ordinary citizen of a country cannot influence these decisions, and cannot be responsible for their consequences. Although yes, ordinary citizens have to disentangle themselves.

    Okay, sorry, it's boiling drinks
  18. optimist
    optimist 20 March 2013 09: 36 New
    +3
    While the hunchback, Chubais and their minions (only nits-ebn died of their death) will freely walk on this earth and tell the media "how they sold their homeland," the story of betrayal will continue. Of course, we are all to blame for this very shameful page in the history of our country. But once you have to start fixing bugs. And while these creatures are free, I will be sure: GDP is the glorious successor of their filthy business.
    1. Woodoo
      Woodoo 20 March 2013 20: 01 New
      0
      An optimist, a prison or a tower is too easy for him.

      I would have kept this rot nits for as long as possible alive, but would have rolled to Serbia, Damascus, Libya, Chechnya, etc.
      To each of those officers, the NNA brought into the house so that he looked into their eyes. Well, I’ve taken it home. In the former republics. At the SS parade in the Baltic States he would exhibit him as an honored guest.

      But I wouldn’t let it strangle ... I would pull it out of clinical death, implant the pig organs and roll it further.
  19. Forget
    Forget 20 March 2013 09: 55 New
    0
    ... the conclusion is that any state and army is nothing if it is not headed by Humanity ...
  20. fenix57
    fenix57 20 March 2013 10: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: Son
    The betrayal of all and all ... In my opinion, it began in April 1989.

    Nooooo ... 1987 from the very "perestroika" (served in the SRV) - you arrive home ---- oh: December1987 YEAR- NEW YEAR ANYTHING- Perestroika (1,5 IN THE USSR WASN’T) -What is going on ?????? But they sold ... soldier
  21. zao74
    zao74 20 March 2013 10: 05 New
    +1
    Again, again, this spotty sold OUR Homeland. Lord, where did we look ...
  22. Igarr
    Igarr 20 March 2013 10: 22 New
    +7
    An article of some sort ... sadness.
    A loyal army .... Well, yes, a loyal one. Just yesterday .. Ali Baba in an article about Uzbekistan, too, like a spitting cobra - sprayed it with poison - you robbed and betrayed us.
    Betrayed primarily by the USSR.
    Remember the referendum? Do you know the results?
    Those who then vomited the most - now they are in the very azdnitsa.
    isn't that so?
    And we ourselves, who voted to preserve the USSR? Did I vote in 1991 to screw from Tashkent to Orel in 1996?
    Betrayed us. First of all.
    Betrayed the Soviet Union.
    Traitors - we know very well.
    And keep quiet! DO NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING!
    ..
    Well, a gag in our mouth ... so that they remain silent.
    .
    It's a shame, people.
    1. baltika-18
      baltika-18 20 March 2013 11: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: Igarr
      Betrayed the Soviet Union.
      Traitors - we know very well.
      And keep quiet! DO NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING!

      Igor, what can we talk about if traitors are awarded the highest state awards. And not only traitors ........
      We even have a chief rabbi, who already has three citizenships, an honorary order bearer.
    2. valokordin
      valokordin 20 March 2013 11: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: Igarr
      Traitors - we know very well.
      And keep quiet! DO NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING!
      ..
      Well, a gag in our mouth ... so that they remain silent.

      Two tried and got 13 and 6 years old, the rest were smaller, and what was the defense of these devoted officers.
  23. fenix57
    fenix57 20 March 2013 10: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: Tartary
    and the NATO war machine is deployed near Russian borders. And in the event of a military conflict, well-trained and trained officers
    -A soldiers, officers (and reserve- normal) of the Russian Army - THEY CAN AND DEDICATED, BUT NOT TRAINERS hi
  24. fenix57
    fenix57 20 March 2013 10: 54 New
    +2
    And many on this site .... !!!! soldier
  25. Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 20 March 2013 11: 54 New
    +3
    ... You betrayed us ... - the former captain will say.

    I. Nobody. Not. Betrayed! And my people did not betray. And I have nothing to make excuses for! Some tendency has recently taken place to be, according to which once again kicking Russia is a good tone. Those who wanted it were lined up right away: Georgians and Americans, Uzbeks and Tajiks, Germans and Estonians ... Yes, you all go! I remember very well the 90s, when the Union, the Republic of the USSR, Europe and many in the world simply screamed with delight at the desire for independence, freedom and democracy! So eat it as much as you can. And no one asked me when they created the GDR (Poland, UzSSR ...) or when they collapsed! I have the honor! soldier
  26. Bosk
    Bosk 20 March 2013 12: 27 New
    +1
    A friend of mine served in the Western War Band and during the Berlin mess, they stood near Berlin in a forest and German self-propelled guns stood side by side with them (well, there he also turned down about uncovered guns and raised trunks, but this was probably what he embellished) ... then when everything had settled down and the wall was destroyed he asked the German officer ... if there was an order he would open fire? and he answered .. if the order was that his self-propelled guns would open fire. It turns out the Germans were our allies until the very end ... such a sad story ...
  27. selbrat
    selbrat 20 March 2013 12: 40 New
    0
    Yeah, against the background of our traitorous leaders of that time, Markus Wolf looks like a seasoned human being, who did not betray a single agent and not a single appearance during interrogations ...
  28. aviamed90
    aviamed90 20 March 2013 12: 45 New
    +1
    Yes, our country has betrayed that captain of the NNA! But, in turn, Gorby betrayed both his country and his people, and, as a result, the same captain of the NNA. And how many captains were betrayed to them? Who counted?
    There was such a pilot-cosmonaut of the GDR - Sigmund Ian. Can anyone remember? So, this is the only general who remained in the service in the Bundeswehr Air Force as deputy. Air Force Commander. The rest were thrown out like garbage!
    German military pilots of the GDR cried when they left for Vaterland after the reunification of Germany (by the way, why is this process called reunification?) From the VVA named after Yu.A. Gagarina (Monino). They knew what awaited them.
  29. Iraclius
    Iraclius 20 March 2013 12: 50 New
    0
    Historically, Germany did not unite voluntarily, but with iron and blood, and people live there in different lands with a rather different mentality. Therefore, it is not surprising that for the East German, the West was an ideological enemy.

    ***
    I am ashamed of my country in front of all the countries of the social camp, which is a sin to conceal. Wildly ashamed.
    Only, now, such a feeling develops that it is not a shame for my homeland, Soviet and Russian troops thrown out over the fence. recourse And somehow it’s really embarrassing to talk about the scanty results of the military reform.
  30. deman73
    deman73 20 March 2013 13: 06 New
    0
    It was a direct betrayal of our allies, and not only in the GDR but also in other countries, and most importantly, the tagged betrayed his country, and for this he had to sit somewhere in Kolyma long ago. and the ZGV was not worth withdrawing here; another reformer did his best - he drank everything, after all, neither the Amers nor the Saxons did not withdraw their troops
  31. Rus2012
    20 March 2013 13: 24 New
    +2
    ... yes, the article talks about sad things and touches the thin strings of the soul to the depths of the soul ...
    Ah, if everything could be reversed ... Then make another decision ...

    But, many had to live more than 30 years to understand what then we lost ...
    Thank God the youth understood everything! My children were then kindergarten youngsters. And their girlfriends are friends from Deutschland too. Now everything is correctly evaluated and correctly called a spade a spade ...
    The missile officers, the German immigrants, are proud to have served in the SA. Together with the children celebrate 9may (and Orthodox Easter) in Munich ... They are fond of the history and restoration of WWII technique. They often come to Russia and even work here ...

    Will time fix it?
  32. T-130
    T-130 20 March 2013 13: 55 New
    +1
    Regarding the betrayal, I do not quite agree, for the government of Gobachev and Yeltsin betrayed us no less and more than once, and the people and the army!
  33. Gorchakov
    Gorchakov 20 March 2013 14: 01 New
    +2
    Russian people will never forget the greatest betrayal of all times and peoples, as well as the performers of this act .... Do not forget, do not forgive !!!
  34. Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 20 March 2013 14: 05 New
    0
    Will the Germans feel sorry for the Germans. They are at home. But our guys with their wives and children were thrown out of the GBV into the open field, found in tents. Who should be spared. Yes, Gorbaty should be put on trial for this and much more.
  35. Slav
    Slav 20 March 2013 14: 18 New
    +1
    Tragedies always occur during the collapse of empires.
    Someone said the following phrase: whoever is happy with the collapse of the Russian Empire does not have a mind, one who is happy with the collapse of the USSR has no heart.
    We are all to blame for the collapse of the USSR, to one degree or another.
  36. Black
    Black 20 March 2013 14: 43 New
    0
    Gorbachev and his role are understandable .... But I do not think that everything is so linear.
    Gorbachev, the essence and creation of the CPSU. His hands were his, he was a performer, but his head and brain were party backstage. And I think it was not without Gromyko, and his entourage. The collapse of the empire was conceived in the early 80s. And done.
    And while they (though not all) are alive, it would be nice to open archives and secrets so that they could see hell during their lifetime.
  37. vezunchik
    vezunchik 20 March 2013 15: 21 New
    +1
    Germany united - wait for the war !!!
  38. Pancho
    Pancho 20 March 2013 15: 25 New
    0
    All the time I was amazed that our high-ranking military men saw where Humpbacked country was dragging and did nothing. There was no one to put a barrel to his head. This is the same with Yeltsin, as I recall when he conducted a drunken orchestra in Germany when our were leaving.
    1. Bosk
      Bosk 20 March 2013 15: 41 New
      +1
      On the one hand, it’s certainly bad that there was no general who would remove this bastard .., but on the other hand it’s not the military’s business to get into politics, it’s their business to defend their homeland, whatever it would be, but if they start to get into politics then shortly before the new Samossa rolls ... But do we need this?
      1. Woodoo
        Woodoo 20 March 2013 20: 10 New
        0
        But they shot Andropov ...
  39. Black
    Black 20 March 2013 19: 27 New
    0
    Quote: vezunchik
    Germany united - wait for the war !!!

    Yes, they will soon twist their neck without war.
  40. razved
    razved 20 March 2013 23: 41 New
    0
    article is good. But for some reason, no one recalls the Soviet officers and their families who were thrown into the fields and who served in the Western Group of Forces.
  41. APASUS
    APASUS 22 March 2013 22: 29 New
    0
    It is interesting to read how the Germans are trying to save a piece of the wall that is disconnected. The impossible is possible!
    1. Woodoo
      Woodoo 22 March 2013 22: 32 New
      0
      It's like building a wall between the supporters of the gel-centric system and their opponents. It's not about the bricks.