"I'm afraid France will get to suicide ..."
Konstantin Melnik-Botkin, 84-year-old legend of international intelligence, coordinator of the French intelligence services during de Gaulle’s time, told the Voice of Russia that the Russian mentality was very disturbing in his career and why Russia did not need to take an example from the WestIn 32 of the year, during the reign of Charles de Gaulle, Melnik headed the structure in charge of all the special services of France, including intelligence. Miller also plays a key role in ending the Algerian War and accordingly beginning the process of decolonization. Later he was one of the main analysts and the shadow leaders of the French state power apparatus, as well as of the American state corporations. Miller worked closely with the Vatican.
Konstantin Konstantinovich Melnik-Botkin (born 24 in October 1927) was a French political scientist and writer. Born in France into a family of Russian émigrés of the first wave: a White Guard lieutenant, a native of the family of wealthy Volynian peasants Konstantin Melnik, and Tatiana Botkina, daughter of the family physician of the family of Nicholas II E.S. Botkin. He was the best student in high school. After the war, he served as a translator in the American army for two years.
Konstantin Konstantinovich Melnik-Botkin (born 24 in October 1927) was a French political scientist and writer.
Born in France into a family of Russian émigrés of the first wave: a White Guard lieutenant, a native of the family of wealthy Volynian peasants Konstantin Melnik, and Tatiana Botkina, daughter of the family physician of the family of Nicholas II E.S. Botkin.
He was the best student in high school.
After the war, he served as a translator in the American army for two years.
He worked as an analyst, collaborated with the Vatican organization "Russicum".
Melnik recalled himself and Sergei Obolensky (1909 — 1992): “He did not have hatred for the Soviet Union. He and I thought that the Soviet Union had liberated Europe from the Nazis. For us, the USSR anthem was the anthem of the liberators. After graduating from high school, I even entered to the organization "Soviet Patriots".
He graduated from the Paris Institute of Political Science (1946), where he was the first in his course. While studying at the Institute of Political Science, having no means to rent a room in Paris, he lived in Medon from 1946 to 1949 a year.
From 1952, he worked in the Ministry of the Interior of France. He was drafted into the army, served in the General Staff of the National Defense of France with Marshal Jouin.
In 1959 — 1962, Melnik is the coordinator of the French intelligence services under Prime Minister Debre.
In those years, Melnik, as the newspaper Le Monde wrote about him, was one of the most influential figures of the Fifth Republic. He knew all the secrets, held all the keys in his hands, enjoyed absolute confidence. Ruthless towards those in power, the satirical weekly Canar Abshene wrote in those years: "Among the nonentities of the Matignon Palace, a star named Melnik shines brightly."
After leaving the Matignon Palace, Melnik took up publishing and writing, writing a total of about a dozen books. Among them are the novel Agency and the Committee (about the CIA and the KGB), the autobiography Spy and His Century. The Diagonal Double, the memoirs Thousand Days in Matignon, the pamphlet Politically Incorrect, the spy detective story.History treason. "
As a publisher, he released the bestseller translated in Russia by Gilles Perrault The Red Chapel, Steiner's book about the concentration camp in Treblinka, a series of Bornish novels, subsequently filmed with Alain Delon in the title role. Melnik himself starred in the movie, playing the colonel of the KGB in the movie "The Elephant's Diagonal".
For several years he worked in the USA in the RAND corporation, from 1955, he was its representative in Paris.
RAND (Eng. Research and Development - "Research and Development", or R & D - research and development) - American strategic research center.
First visited Russia in 1998 year.
Konstantin Konstantinovich Melnik-Botkin (born 24 in October 1927) was a French political scientist and writer.
Born in France into a family of Russian émigrés of the first wave: a White Guard lieutenant, a native of the family of wealthy Volynian peasants Konstantin Melnik, and Tatiana Botkina, daughter of the family physician of the family of Nicholas II E.S. Botkin.
He was the best student in high school.
After the war, he served as a translator in the American army for two years.
He worked as an analyst, collaborated with the Vatican organization "Russicum".
Melnik recalled himself and Sergei Obolensky (1909 — 1992): “He did not have hatred for the Soviet Union. He and I thought that the Soviet Union had liberated Europe from the Nazis. For us, the USSR anthem was the anthem of the liberators. After graduating from high school, I even entered to the organization "Soviet Patriots".
He graduated from the Paris Institute of Political Science (1946), where he was the first in his course. While studying at the Institute of Political Science, having no means to rent a room in Paris, he lived in Medon from 1946 to 1949 a year.
From 1952, he worked in the Ministry of the Interior of France. He was drafted into the army, served in the General Staff of the National Defense of France with Marshal Jouin.
In 1959 — 1962, Melnik is the coordinator of the French intelligence services under Prime Minister Debre.
In those years, Melnik, as the newspaper Le Monde wrote about him, was one of the most influential figures of the Fifth Republic. He knew all the secrets, held all the keys in his hands, enjoyed absolute confidence. Ruthless towards those in power, the satirical weekly Canar Abshene wrote in those years: "Among the nonentities of the Matignon Palace, a star named Melnik shines brightly."
After leaving the Matignon Palace, Melnik took up publishing and writing, writing a total of about a dozen books. Among them are the novel Agency and the Committee (about the CIA and the KGB), the autobiography Spy and His Century. The Diagonal Double, the memoirs Thousand Days in Matignon, the pamphlet Politically Incorrect, the spy detective story.History treason. "
As a publisher, he released the bestseller translated in Russia by Gilles Perrault The Red Chapel, Steiner's book about the concentration camp in Treblinka, a series of Bornish novels, subsequently filmed with Alain Delon in the title role. Melnik himself starred in the movie, playing the colonel of the KGB in the movie "The Elephant's Diagonal".
For several years he worked in the USA in the RAND corporation, from 1955, he was its representative in Paris.
RAND (Eng. Research and Development - "Research and Development", or R & D - research and development) - American strategic research center.
First visited Russia in 1998 year.
In an interview with Golos Rossii, Melnik said:
- Russia in the West is hated, misunderstood and unwilling to understand! When you read French newspapers or magazines, they always criticize Russia, criticize the system ... Here is the latest issue of the very well-known journal Politician Internationale, where the whole article is against Putin.
In France and in the West, people forget that Russia suffered terribly, that after all there was a revolution, a civil war, many killed, emigration, victims of repression under Lenin, under Stalin - 25 million, World War II. And when communism failed, no one helped or helped Russia. Everything is forgotten in France. They continue to look at Russia, as during the Cold War. This is complete nonsense!
France hates Russia, but this is understandable, because Russia defeated their beloved Napoleon. Then Khrushchev still did not want to give the money that the French banks lent to the tsarist regime (this is a government loan for the construction of railways, the vast majority of which were built with funds from the French population. The Lenin government did not recognize the debt, which led to a strong dislike of the new communist the authorities on the part of the French population, which, in fact, robbed. Yeltsin’s Russia partly recognized the debt and negotiated the settlement of at least the nominal). And then it happened that the French intellectuals were all ex-communists and Maoists. And they still have the impression that Russia defiled their communist ideals. The situation is difficult for Russia to reverse in France. Not to mention America, which also hates Russia. The only country that behaves decently is Germany, after all. And others ...
- Absolutely right. And Putin has very clear ties with Germany, and now there is an attempt to build relations with France. But it is very difficult, because Francois Hollande has no policy towards Russia. Sarkozy was the pro-American president.
“He ruined France, and I'm afraid Hollande is even worse.” Apart from Germany, the whole West failed. I am very pessimistic about the future of Europe. But they love themselves and are confident that they are right and that everything is wonderful. Moreover, Russia is always to blame for everything.
- You wrote about Islam and that the French at one time tried to cope with the Muslims and the threat from them in the era of the Algiers War. You are the person who helped France out of the Algerian conflict ... How did you manage to achieve such heights in your career?
- It happened because I am a Russian. I had a wonderful career, I worked as a Soviet analyst. He was also familiar with the Jesuit Order of the Vatican, which formed the Rusikum organization, which studied communism (Rusikum is the main intelligence center of the Vatican, so succeeded in collecting information that, according to certain sources, even the CIA buys information from him).
I am the only person in the West who at such a young age has reached such heights in the field of intelligence and analytics. For example, analyzing Soviet open sources, including the Pravda newspaper, I formed a forecast that Khrushchev would be Stalin's heir: the fact is that in newspaper publications he was given much more attention than Malenkov or Beria.
My next assignment was the post of representative of the largest American organization Rand Rand (note: numerous analysts consider RandCorp. Part of the semi-official analytic structure of the CIA in Europe, collecting information to assign Americans with a presence in the European space). I was ready to go to America. But I also had a political career in France, so when de Gaulle came to power and his prime minister, Michel Debre, with whom I was friends, asked me for profile help, I reacted like a stupid Russian man. Raised, you see, was "for the king, for the motherland, for the faith." So I decided to take the authority to end this terrible Algerian war and return France to its greatness according to the recipe of the General. At the same time, I did not rank myself as a Gaullist, remaining an outsider for them. Therefore, as soon as the war ended, they looked at me as at the Russian, for example, as a member of the Foreign Legion: in the sense that if the war is over, it means that no one needs it anymore.
So, at that time my official career came to an end, and it was necessary to begin a new life as a writer and publisher. Nevertheless, I continued to be interested in intelligence all the time, however, as well as Russia.
In the 1972 year, when Brezhnev began negotiations with the West on the issue of delimiting spheres, Leonid Ilch’s proposal met with a widespread negative reaction. I, together with the Vatican lawyer, on the contrary, explained that the only way to destroy the communist system is to formulate the third appendix to the basic package transferred by Brezhnev.
In his memoirs, Gorbachev writes that this was the beginning of the collapse of the communist system: Russia could not accept the introduction of the concept of "human rights" into international practice, much less the creation of a regime for the free movement of people and spiritual values. There was an absolute contradiction with the local law enforcement. In order to gain an understanding of politicians, I had to fight for it. It took me 3 of the year for the West to understand that the only opportunity to build a new Russia was to sign the so-called third Helsinki basket.
In other words, I again acted as a typical unmerging Russian: for I personally did not derive any benefit from this business for myself either in France or in America. On the contrary, they looked at me as if they were left-winged, that is, sympathizing with communism.
From this follow two or three program outputs, which I adhered to. First: to foresee that Khrushchev will be Stalin's heir. Second: to help de Gaulle not only to withdraw from the Algerian war, but also to avoid the civil war in France, which was also part of my area of responsibility. I note that the situation in the country was terrible. At that time, under my command were all the police forces of the country, or, as you call them, the security forces.
As you know, the operation was a success: the civil war did not start. The basis of my motives was the Russian line: I remembered the horrors of 17, the murder of my grandfather, Dr. Evgeny Sergeyevich Botkin (E.S. Botkin was shot with members of the royal family in the Ipatiev House). I hate anarchy and revolution.
Now about communism. My approach to it was very interesting. In some ways it coincided with the line of the Vatican. I believed that communism is not an ideology similar to Nazism, but a real new religion, therefore it is necessary to fight it with spiritual forces. According to this line, I built my whole life. But he did not receive any special benefits from France. In turn, I absolutely do not care, because I feel like a Russian person, and not a Frenchman at all.
I was born in France, but started to speak French only when I was 7 years old. Prior to 20, he lived in a Russian environment in which they spoke exclusively Russian. So I thought in Russian, and in French I began to think only when I went to the Academy of Political Sciences. I finished it first in my graduation, which allowed me to make a career. Of course, the real career was impossible, because in those times - especially after the war - France was a deeply communist country. For example, at the Academy of Political Sciences, the history of Russia before 17 was not studied. Studied exclusively political economy and socialist Marxism. Therefore, the white emigre was looking askance at me. My real career went in America, but then I gave up everything to protect France and de Gaulle, that is, I acted in a typical Russian way: very stupid. Just like Saltykov-Shchedrin.
- You did not manage to reach the greatest heights, because you never gave up your Russian origin. We read it in your book: You were always true to yourself and did not want to remake your name in the French way ... (see the book by KK Melnik "Modern intelligence and espionage", as well as the same author "Spying in French" .
- And there is. But intelligence was always my main muse. Firstly, intelligence was not related to communist ideology, and secondly, it provides an opportunity to understand the world.
I always wanted to understand why such a great power as the Russian Empire died so quickly and fell so deep. That is why the last 10 years, I was still interested in intelligence. After this, my work, which you mentioned, it was time for my first meetings with Marcus Wolf (for 34 years, Wolf led the intelligence services of the GDR), General Kondrashov, high-ranking representatives of the CIA ...
There was a movie shot. At the first meeting, the producer asked me: "What do you want?" I replied that I wanted to meet with the KGB officers with whom I had once fought. I have in mind the First Chief Directorate, and not the Second Principal Board. What was my shock! In the First Main Directorate, I found remarkable people who had a scale of thinking comparable to the teachers of French universities! Absolutely honest people who did nothing vulgarly! They only studied the world, even if they recruited agents who sympathized with communism!
One of this galaxy is Shebarshina. I can not help but worry about this. I called him every week, we often met and drank tea or had dinner with him. So his suicide was a big blow to me. Shebarshin was one of the most brilliant scouts I have ever met. I think he was of the level of Marcus Wolf, with whom I was also friends.
So, I have been friends with people from the former First Main Directorate of the KGB for 10 years, and I have read all the books that they so kindly sent me. Perhaps that is why I wrote another book about real Russian intelligence. You read it in the Russian translation, which is not very good.
In my book, it says that the beginning of real Russian intelligence was laid by the emergence of a communist ideology. In the West, intelligence began when World War II broke out. The British behaved very cleverly. French intelligence also behaved competently in relation to the Germans. The guerrilla war was not, of course, a significant phenomenon, but intelligence did work well. And then the Cold War began, and America entered the reconnaissance arena.
Frankly, the last 10 years of my contacts with representatives of the Russian intelligence have helped me a lot to write the last book about the shortcomings of the French data collection system (meaning the book "Spying in French"). When they showed me the KGB museum, I wrote in the Golden Visitors Book: "The best intelligence in the world."
The secret is that the Russian person loves relationships with other people and is keenly interested in them. In addition, the KGB Academy provided its graduates with a very interesting and in some ways even wonderful upbringing. The Russian himself has a specific spirit: he is interested in other countries. And the Frenchman is interested only in himself. Therefore, Paris is not bad at combating terrorism, because in this case we are talking about self-defense. That is why they had such wonderful intelligence during the German occupation, and now there is success in the fight against terrorism. But the knowledge of other countries, other people they are not interested.
Today, French intelligence is guided by fantasies, including the fantasy there in present-day Russia: it includes such concepts as relations with Putin, as well as relations with the Putin system.
It is difficult to argue that in some ways the analysis of French intelligence contains correct conclusions: for example, about the presence of corruption in Russia and an underdeveloped economy. With the 4 and 3 Republics in France, there was no corruption at all, because there were wonderful officials. Therefore, when de Gaulle came to power, these same officials helped him, corruption did not arise, which in turn made it possible to develop the country's economy.
Nevertheless, it should be noted that economic growth began even before de Gaulle, that is, at the time of the 4 Republic. I myself, together with the Russian group (meaning a significant part of the French leaders who left the colony of white immigrants), took a direct part in this process.
Due to the presence of a competent team of like-minded people in government posts, we managed to build a strong economy of a mixed public-private type. I think 4 Republic saved itself from communism because it came up with an economic model stronger and more attractive than communist systems. In those days, the danger of communism was stronger than ever: we must not forget that 37% of the French voted for this party. Everyone defended Stalin, but thanks to the French socialists and the French radical socialists - by the way, I was just a radical socialist - we still raised the country and let de Gaulle finish the Algerian war.
Now about Russia. I have often said that Putin was pursuing de Gaulle’s policy, because still there was no free press under de Gaulle, and the monopoly on television was in the hands of the state. In addition, all Putin's theories are similar to de Gaulle's theories. But, unfortunately, de Gaulle had a very strong country in his hands, which he ruined, and Mitterrand had finished it off. Now we are waiting for an absolute failure with the new socialist.
This will undoubtedly be an economic failure, because the Frenchman is an individualist by nature and is interested only in himself. He will ask more from the state: more pensions, higher wages. And I'm afraid that France will reach suicide, like Greece. And criticizing Putin for not going to the West is complete nonsense, because you need to build something new in Russia, but this is difficult, because there are no good officials or political leaders.
In other words, unfortunate Putin stands alone. If you look closely, his environment is very interesting. They even come across people of Medvedev scale, but there is no body of officials and political leaders! And the country, as we all said at the beginning of our conversation, suffered terribly because of the revolution, because of the emigration. The only person, ironically, who built Russia is still Stalin. And now there is a fashion to criticize Stalin: the price was terrible, the peasantry died, 700 000 shot ... But he built the country! As Churchill said, he got a country that lived in the 16 century, and left it with a nuclear weapons. It's amazing!
Interestingly, Russia adored de Gaulle. He always thought that it was impossible to build Europe without Russia. This is his famous phrase, for example: "From the Atlantic Ocean to the Urals"! But de Gaulle spoke poorly about ruling Russia. So, he liked to add: "When the line fails (in Russia) - absolutely unserious, stupid and ineffective!" De Gaulle tried to talk about it with Khrushchev when he invited him to Paris. The general said that after Stalin’s death, it was necessary to immediately start some kind of restructuring, although at that time there was no such word. What you need to change the style of government. In response, Khrushchev behaved like a stupid peasant. And de Gaulle showed him the factories, all the wonderful things that exist in France, and which, I am afraid, will not stand in the face of today's crisis. Khrushchev only answered: "And in our Soviet Union it will be even better!" I am witness to all this, because I worked with the Prime Minister when France hosted Khrushchev. In short, for us it was a terrible disappointment. Khrushchev did not want to understand that a mixed economy is more efficient than the state model.
- You write in your book “Spying in French” that French intelligence was not effective enough and that, with the exception of Georges Pak, whom you personally knew, with the exception of some small fish, the French did not have the opportunity to act effectively. But Jacques Sapir, Ellen Carrer d'Ancoss, your contemporaries and colleagues, said that the French had historically had strong intelligence in Africa with a perfectly well-functioning system. You guided it all. Do you think the opinion is justified?
- I see one thing: it's a shame to say, but France did not lead the Cold War in the field of intelligence. She took, as they say in Russia, an absolutely neutral position. I think they simply did not have the opportunity, like a state, to afford it. The French were not interested in anything except the defense of France against communism or against agents like Georges Pak. But they did not conduct an intelligent policy on the Russian front, because there were not enough funds, there was no help from the Foreign Ministry, there was no government support.
In Africa, a completely different situation. Here, from my point of view, we are no longer talking about intelligence, but, most likely, a policy of influence. Still, de Gaulle was a very strange man, and his losses in Algeria caused great sadness, which indirectly caused dissension in our relations with him.
He wanted to preserve French influence in Africa. But there was no real intelligence in Africa. It was a policy of influence, where the president of some African country had, for example, an advisor to a man listed as the head of the French residency. For me, this is not intelligence. The politics of influence is a completely different thing. She does not have to go through the special services. It should be pursued through diplomacy, economic assistance, and an impact on the local education system. But it can be said that de Gaulle in Africa used the special services to calculate the possibility of a new wave of colonization. Let in another form. We see the result today: it is by no means brilliant - Africa is in a terrible state. Economic development did not take place. All the money went to France through major oil companies. Guided by my own system of views, that is, my so-called Russian stupidity, I think that any country has no right to exploit or despise another. Well, about how today the French despise Russia. Strong countries should help others to become strong, rich and developed.
The policy of the Americans after World War II was correct in this area. I am a witness to that. But after the First World, France led a terrible policy against Germany. And this policy led to national socialism.
After World War II, people like Foster Dulles, the US foreign secretary, or his brother, Alain Dulles, began a policy that became a working Marshall plan. They, of course, pursued their own interests. But still the Americans then helped France to build an economically powerful country.
Today, America’s policy has completely turned upside down: they are only interested in force, military conquest. I wrote an article in a Russian magazine after 11 September that America needs to return to its old ideals and help Arab countries and the entire Middle East build a new economy, educate local people, and offer long-term investment projects. It was time to start doing this instead of fighting! The CIA also behaves in the same way with its Guantanamo camp, the killing of Muslims or their abduction. This is a terrible, bad policy, which is directed towards anarchy and indignation of the countries in which it is carried out. In Western Europe, Americans used to have smart politics.
Speaking of Russia, I still feel hurt that Putin and his staff are not spending enough efforts to build a new economy, new roads, or to stop corruption. Apparently, these problems are the price that the country pays for the 17 year. So many intellectuals lost during World War II, because the best people were killed! How difficult now! All the misfortunes of Russia begin in the 17 year.
I'll tell you a little joke. Now the man has passed away, and I can tell it. The first time I met Shebarshina was at the SVR press conference. And here comes a man, and I immediately recognize Shebarshin from photographs. He turns to me and says: "Konstantin Konstantinovich!" That is, when he saw me for the first time, he immediately recognized me. And Shebarshin continues: "I read your great-grandfather's book, SP Botkin, yesterday, about the Russian-Turkish war in the 70's." I, of course, asked him why he reads such books. He replied: "Because I read books before Russian misfortune." I, of course, asked him when the Russian misfortune begins. And - surprisingly for the head of the KGB - he replied: "17 year." And so many misfortunes have been in Russia since this year, which is a real horror.
But the only positive thing is the arrival of Stalin. But for me, Putin’s power is a positive factor. Because he reminds me of de Gaulle. But he does not have a strong civil society, there is no strong justice, there is no strong industry, except for the sale of oil and some other opportunities. We need to understand Russia. Therefore, a radio like yours is useful because you explain what kind of country it is and what its capabilities are.
- Konstantin Konstantinovich, you write about the fact that the Vatican did not and does not have intelligence, although the Vatican itself is a strong organization.
- I knew Opus Dei well. This is not a form of intelligence. Opus Dei is a tool of influence. Because they have an impact on important people in a Catholic environment. They had a wonderful man, the lawyer of the Pope, with whom I worked a lot, Master Viola (Opus Dei - a separate order of the Vatican, whose members, being formally monks, so-called numeries, can maintain their alibi, even getting married and living a normal life. Guide The orders, surumerarii, conduct financial transactions, as well as gather information from around the world, they also own a number of universities and, according to some sources, cities - for example, Pampluna. s activities only to the Pope).
Whether it is intelligence or not is hard to say ... I think these are specially formed organizations, such as Opus Dei or Rusikum. But they do not have handwriting intelligence. They helped the Polish church immediately after the war, sending funds and books - the Gospel and other publications necessary to serve the Liturgy. But for them it is quite a natural line of conduct. We in the West have a division between society and the state, the state and intelligence, engaged in a narrow professional activity. In the Vatican, they do not have a division of duties between the activities of Maître Viola responsible for “Opus Dei” and those of the Pope. In other words, everyone does everything at once. But technically the Vatican is the most effective intelligence in the world.
- I have a question for you: you believe in the alliance of France with Russia. And that relations will develop in the future, and France will be reborn, as de Gaulle used to say, a "white Christian country", always the former, in the eyes of Russia, the center of world civilization?
- Now people in Russia love France in many respects and look at it as an example to follow, like a “high” country. You know, France is a very strange country. This is a proud country. She has a very high opinion of herself. And the French propaganda is very effective. But you should not look at France as an example.
I remember one conversation with Shebarshin, even before he shot himself. He said that there were difficult moments under Stalin, and under Khrushchev and Brezhnev - less difficult. But we have never seen (in France) such a vulgar situation as now. And now France continues to say that it is a wonderful country. But she is still a very vulgar country.
Nevertheless, I believe that the hatred of France for Russia should not have any influence on Russian politics. How should American anti-Russian policy not have an influence on Russian policy?
That's right, Putin did not go to America, because the Americans have a cold war psychology. But in Russia itself the situation is very difficult. It’s too easy to criticize Putin.
Often think about the prospects of this country. I believe that the Russian people are strong and that they will be able to build their future. But I would be sorry if a small Russian civil society (note: civil society - in the understanding of French political science, intellectuals and politicians) decides that salvation is in the West. There will be no salvation in the West. If you want, look at Greece, Spain, Italy, and tomorrow and France! The Russians need to understand that they need to fight, as in the days of World War II! It is necessary that all the people rise to the cause of their development, but it is difficult.
The authors are grateful to Alexander Shchedrov for help in organizing the interview.
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