Military Review

Vikings - truth and fiction

180
I propose today to touch the Swedish culture again, in particular, such a phenomenon in it as the "Vikings". But before we consider the most important museum piece for understanding the Viking era, let's look at the first floor of the Swedish Historical Museum, on the inconspicuous wall next to the changing room, which is decorated with children's drawings. It is impossible to deceive children, they discard everything superfluous and draw the very essence of how this adult part of society sees it.


For example, all Soviet children painted the Second World War in exactly the same way - on the one hand Tanks with stars, on the other hand tanks with crosses, planes on top, explosions in the middle. For our society, the Second World War, it’s not the world war, it’s the Great Patriotic War, the confrontation of “our” and “Germans”. How do Swedish children see the Vikings?

Vikings - truth and fiction

The image is classic, and this is how not just the majority of children, but also most adults who did not specifically get acquainted with the question, represent them in the manner that they constantly walk in the media space and in the plastic helmets that are sold in souvenir shops. The fact is that the modern concept of “Viking” has long gone beyond a specific historical phenomenon, and it doesn't matter anymore that they had no horns and no matter what these people called themselves, what their nationalities were and what the differences were Norman conquests, pirate raids and the wars of the Scandinavian kings. All who went on ships in the Baltic, regardless of occupation and ethnicity, became “Scandinavian Vikings”.

And now the main exhibit on the Viking issue. And this is not swords or helmets, this is not the layout of the city of Birka, and not Eastern silver. I consider the main exhibit on the issue to be a fairly simple installation in the Swedish Army Museum.



Here is what is said about this installation in the museum guide:



Why is this unknown “nobleman in a vacuum” from a completely different era so important for understanding the Vikings? And because the horned Vikings under striped sails grew precisely on the fertile soil of Gothicism, fertilized by the work of many Swedish scientists. Mention of this phenomenon can be found, for example, in the books of A.G. Kuzmin and V.V. Fomin. Many articles on this issue was published by L.P. Groth. To begin with, briefly about the period of the Swedish storiesin which Gothicism originated.

Gustav Eriksson Vasa (the one who built his personal Titanic) with military support from the Hansa brought Sweden out of union with Denmark and Norway, in 1523 he took the white house under siege Stockholm, and began to strengthen independent Sweden. This success was brilliantly developed by his grandson Gustav II Adolf. The successful participation of Sweden in the first pan-European conflict, and the forerunner of future world wars - the thirty-year war, as well as the expansion to the east made it the most powerful power in the Baltic region. So, the middle of the 17 century, Russia is weakened and pushed aside from the trade routes of the Baltic by the Stolbovo World, Germany is drained of blood, and its production is destroyed, Denmark and Poland no longer dispute the rule of Sweden over the region. In this situation, the strengthening of the Swedish national identity began. During the reign of Christina (daughter of the early deceased Gustav II), the number of nobles increases, the luxury of palace receptions, and the active development of art and science begins. The research of Swedish scientists became fashionable and advanced for Europe, and influenced the entire scientific community. I will cite several specific examples described in the article of L. Grotth. The epistemological roots of Normanism, as well as in the cycle of its article from here.

On the basis of the work of Juhan Bure, the most influential scholar close to Gustav II, another scientist Georg Stearnjelm 6 created a treatise on hyperborean “De Hyperboreis Dissertatio”, where the following ideas are based:

  • The Scandinavian Peninsula is a country of Hyperboreans, described in ancient Greek myths, and Hyperboreans, from which the ancient Greeks got their most ancient gods, are Svei;
  • The ancient Greek cults are of Scandinavian origin, and the temple of Apollo is the Upsala Sveev temple;
  • Apollo is One, and his son Njord is Nord, whose name the Greeks translated into Greek, like Boreas;
  • Geographic names found in Greek myths are distorted Scandinavian, for example, Elixia (Elixia) or Hyperborean Island - this is Helsingor or Heligsond in Western Norway;
  • Hyperborean names are Scandinavian names, for example, the Hyperborean sage Abaris from the legend mentioned by Herodotus is a distorted Ewart or Iwart, etc.

    Nothing like? Indeed, in the same period, Peter Petrei de Erzelund publishes "Regin Muschowitici Sciographia" or "Muschowitiske Cronika" where for the first time in science it is thought that the ancient Russian princes were from Sweden. Peter's argument is similar to that of Bure and Shternel 6, for example, the names of the old Russian princes Rurik, Truvor and Sineus are distorted Swedish names of Eric, Sigge and Tour. The fake protocol of negotiations with Novgorod also played a huge role. From negotiations with Novgorod remained the Swedish protocol and Russian records. According to Russian records, Archimandrite Cyprian said that Novgorod had a grand duke named Rodoricus, a native of the Roman Empire, thus emphasizing the ancient ancestry of the Novgorod princes. In the Swedish protocol, there is a small typo "Grand Duke from Sweden named Rurik." Petrey’s unexpected opinion was contrary to the German-speaking historiographic tradition that was common in the 17 century (Münster, Herberstein), which deduced the Vikings from Wagria, and they also contradicted Petrey’s own work on the ancient Goto-Swedish kings, published two years earlier, which he wrote about. about the arrival of Rurik, Truvor and Sineus from Prussia. Although the dramatic change of opinion and falsification of the protocol does not seem so unexpected, given the Swedish troops in Novgorod and the 1613 talks in Vyborg about the candidacy of the Swedish Prince Carl-Philip to the throne of Moscow. New data were taken into scientific circulation and gradually began to receive distribution in European scientific circles.

    Even earlier, in the 16 century, the ideas of Gothicism were widely developed in Western Europe - those who glorified the great past are ready as conquerors of the world and the ancestors of all Germanic peoples. For consonance the name of the cradle of the great Goto-German beginning proclaimed the south of Sweden or Gotland.

    At the end of xnumx. The catch of Rudbeck - brought together the ideas of Gothicism, the works of Johan Bure, Peter Petrey, and his own views. The resulting infernal mixture even got its name “rudbekianism”, the best synonym of modernity would be “Fomenkovism”. In his work "Atlantis", Rudbeck argues that:

  • Sweden was the cradle of European science and culture, including Greek, Roman and Old Russian.
  • For the names of many peoples and the names of countries among the ancient authors were hidden the direct ancestors of the Swedes and Sweden in antiquity.
  • Platonic Atlantis is Sweden.
  • Sweden is an island of Hyperboreans, the name of Boreas can be found among the ancestors of the Swedish kings. So, one of them bore the name Pore / Boré (Pore / Bore), which the Greeks pronounced as Boreas. From him and went the expression "kind of Boreas".
  • Rudbeck uses the same “philology” to prove that other toponyms from Greek myths are also of Scandinavian origin.
  • He also identifies the Swedes and the Scythians who "conquered the Slavs, turned them into slavery and were rulers over them."
  • According to Rudbek, during the life of Alexander of Macedon, Odin and his descendants ruled over most of the lands around the Black Sea, and then power passed to the Gothic-Swedish king Germanarich. Even then, the “Swedish wolves” freely plowed both the Baltic, and the Black and Mediterranean seas up to Sparta and back.
  • It is to Rudbeck that many ideas now postulated by followers of Normanism, in particular, the interpretation of the problem of the origin of the name of the Vikings, traditionally associated with Bayer, go back.

    All these ideas were perceived as advanced for their time, besides the ideas of Gothicism began to be actively promoted due to the cultural opposition of the "north and south" - the Italian humanists began to oppose Roman culture to the Gothic barbarians. Accordingly, the peoples who considered themselves descendants ready, created opposing theories, therefore the works of Rudbek very well corresponded to the social request and were received with great enthusiasm.

    Once the cultural rift went through Western Europe, later a similar confrontation will begin between the Gothic and Slavic ones, and especially it will escalate before the Second World War. In fact, this confrontation is still going on.


    Within the framework of Gothicism, the concepts of “Gothic” and “Germanic” gradually merged into one whole. At a certain period, a third synonym was added to them - “Norman”, from which a historiographic stamp was gradually formed: the “Gothic period” in European history became equivalent to the “Norman period”. We owe this to the Swedish Gothicism, and specifically to the works of the Swedish religious figure Olaf Petri, who for the first time in Swedish historiography touched on the theme of the Viking hikes. Petri reported that the Normans from medieval sources are most likely from Sweden, Denmark or Norway. In the original ancient texts, Norden began to be translated as “Scandinavian countries”, and the adjective nordisk became almost synonymous with Scandinavian. Mixed and Nortmanni collective designation for different ethnic groups and Norveorum - an obvious ethnonym, which can be associated with future Norwegians without much difficulty.

    Undoubtedly, “northerners” continental Europe understood primarily Scandinavians. But in each case it would be worthwhile to sort it out separately, because there are many counterexamples.

    In the Swedish writer Olaus Magnus in his famous work “The History of the Northern Peoples”, not only Scandinavians, but Lithuanians and Russians refer to nordiska folken, and the term Nortmannos refers to foreigners. In the Frankish chronicles, the Normans refer to the population living behind the Elbe, i.e. Actually Saxons-transalbing. Some of the chroniclers wrote about the Normans as Marcomannas. Among such authors can be called, for example, the archbishop in Mainz Rabanus Maurus (780-856).

    Abbot of Lobbie Abbey Folkuin (965-990) wrote about the Normans as the Nordalbing (part of the Saxons), Chronist Ademar Shavansky (989-1034) called them transalbing (also part of the Saxons).

    Adam of Bremen already considers the Normans residents north of Saxony starting with the Danes, and Helmgold identifies Nortmanni not as residents, but as an army that includes the bravest of Danorum, Sueonum, Norveorum, and at the same time says that they obeyed one power, which is incomprehensible. The Saxon Annalist (Annalisto Saxo) derives the Normans from the lower Scythia. And the Italian Bishop Liudprand of Cremona (ca. 920-971 / 2), a century before Adam of Bremen in his work "Antapodosis" (949), twice mentioned the Normans as immigrants from Russia:

    “The city of Constantinople (Constantinopolitana urbs) ... is located among the fiercest nations. After all, from the north, its closest neighbors are Hungarians (Hungarii), Pechenegs (Pizenaci), Khazars (Chazari), Rus (Rusii), which we otherwise call Normans (Nordmanni), and Bulgarians (Bulgarii) ”

    “Closer to the north, a certain people dwell, which the Greeks (Greci) in their appearance call Russia, ρουσιος, while we locally call the Normans. Indeed, in German (Teutonum) the language nord means north, and man - man; this is why northern people can be called Normans. ”

    So, it is clear that the Normans are just “northern people,” and what kind of people they have in mind depends on the location of the author, but the equality sign between the Normans and Scandinavians is already firmly established in the public consciousness.

    At one point, another name “Vikings”, found in some Icelandic sagas, and also mentioned once by the chronicler Adam of Bremen, was attached to the “Gothic-Germanic-Norman beginning”.

    Interestingly, the word Viking itself is probably a borrowing and is recorded in sources for 100 before the Viking period adopted in science, and in sources outside of Scandinavia, it was used to designate pirates and, until the 19 century, the identification of these two terms prevailed in scientific circles not only Sweden, but also Denmark, and Norway. But in the 19 century, poets Eric Geyer and Esaya Tegner begin to shape the romantic artistic image of the “all-Scandinavian” Vikings. And from ordinary pirates, the Vikings become almost knights of the round table, and become warrior-merchants-colonizers in one person. In addition to poetry, the representatives of romanticism in painting contributed to the spread and rooting of the "opera" image of the Viking-Scandinavian in a helmet with horns, under a striped sail and with a huge ax. The horned helmet, for example, is borrowed from the earlier mainland culture of the Gauls, and the sails are most likely simply invented, since no material or written evidence has been preserved.

    Gradually, the image of the artistic Vikings became an independent phenomenon, and migrated into history, and all these concepts Norse-Scandinavian-Vikings have firmly intertwined with each other, so much so that scientists and translators arbitrarily change when quoting one to the other, which finally distorts the picture, this it can be seen even now in Russian publications.

    With Vikings, the same story as with the Normans - initially they are pirates, a multinational phenomenon. Saxon Grammars mentioned Venda, and the Curonians, and the Zemgals, and the Aestians, who were members of pirate teams or victims of pirates. The famous jetsvickings were based in the city of Venedand, and their ships differed from the Scandinavian ones, and Ruyanas also piracy. But gradually the image of the Viking became exclusively Scandinavian.

    Why is the study of specific individual nations - the Danes, Norwegians and Sveev was replaced by the story of the Vikings, and why these stories began to spread precisely from Sweden? The fact is that Sweden was the outskirts of the Scandinavian world, it was neither the center of the Viking hikes, nor the center of the Norman Conquests.

    Consider, for example, the modern reconstruction of Viking equipment presented in the Swedish Army Museum.


    If I don’t have any particular objections against the shield of the sword and the ax, then here’s the helmet and chain mail. What we see by our scientists is usually called the Norman helmet, in Western historiography it is called the “Nasal helm” or “helmet with the panther”. According to the method of manufacture, they were less complex than welded spheroconic Russian helmets, and technologically evolved from a frame helmet. Frame helmets consisted of a rim around the head and two crossed strips of metal, the gaps between them were filled with boiled leather. In the Norman helmets the same technology was used, only the gaps were closed not with leather, but with metal fastened with rivets. The helmet with the noseband was widespread throughout Europe and probably came from the east through Russia or Poland. No such helmet found in Scandinavia. The only helmet of the Viking Age was found in Jermünby (Norway) and is a simplified version of the helmet of the Wendel period. No other helmets were found, although they are common in Wendel burials. Why there was such a regression need to be dealt with separately. Images and bas-reliefs show small conical helmets (metal or leather - hard to say). Thus, a helmet from a photograph is a modern reconstruction of a pan-European helmet and it has no relation to typical Viking equipment, although theoretically it could be used by individual warriors. For example, in the battle of Neshar Olaf II, the Holy involved a squad of 100 selected warriors, dressed in chain mail and in “foreign” helmets.

    Reconstruction of the only surviving 9 Viking helmet of the century, based on fragments found in the tomb in Jermünnby in Ringerik (Norway).



    But they did this for 200 years before. VIIth century helmet from burial to boat in Wendel:



    As for mail, they are also rare, mostly minor fragments of chain mail. As I have already mentioned, only one Viking-era mail was found in Sweden. And even in later periods, the typical protection was a leather jacket with metal or bone inserts.

    More information on equipment can be found in the book by R. Chartrand, C. Dyuram, M. Harrison, I. Heath. Vikings - Mariners, Pirates and Warriors

    The same with the typical Viking ships - Drakkar. While preparing the materials for the article, I was surprised to find that in Sweden there was not a single Drakkar and in general not a single ship of the Viking times, the maximum of a boat up to 6 meters in graves. In 2009, in Lake Venern, they found a large ship, which immediately, even before the examination, was declared a Drakkar, and the found pieces of iron were declared a spear and sword of the Viking era. You can read about this in a number of articles in the 2009 year, with the enthusiastic "first Viking-era ship found in Sweden". From there it migrated to the wiki. The only thing is that the ship was made using the technology that was used until the 19 century, inclusive, and X-ray and even simple pictures of the glands show that arms in general, and to the weapons of the Vikings in particular, they have nothing to do. According to Dr. Martin Rundquist, this is a flagpole no earlier than the 16 of the century.

    In the Viking period, I once wrote about the population of Sweden - according to archaeological data, detached courtyards, which had just begun to gather in small villages, and a meager population.

    I'm not trying to say that there were no Vikings, of course there were pirates and Norman conquests, there were battles and heroes. But let's define the scale, all the Rudbek and Normanist pictures about the countless hordes of Swedish Vikings who storm Constantinople and subordinate all of Eastern Europe somehow fade against the background of archaeological finds, more precisely against the background of their absence.

    Why did the Vikings seize on the minds of our scientists, first of all? After all, until the 80s of the last century, the word Viking was practically not found in the works of Soviet authors, and now in Russia work began to work not only with the use of this term, but even with the word viking in the title. Swedish scientist J. Lind explains this phenomenon.

    “In the face of the gigantic forces of the market that have flooded the world with their Viking image, historians, even if they try to do this, will not be able to turn back the time to their original positions when the Vikings have not yet received their current image. Therefore, we should probably take a Viking in all his current Scandinavian vestments, along with horns on helmets and beards with a shovel. We can even rejoice that the tourism industry, using the Viking brand, also guarantees us the best sale of our works. ”

    The situation with the Swedish conquerors and colonialists was the same as with Hyperboreans, Atlantis and Russia. Achievements in shipbuilding and the conquest of the Danes and Norwegians, motley pirate gangs, European chain mail and helmets, trade routes on the territory of Russia, all this now belongs to the Vikings invented by the Swedes. Thus, the Vikings from the operetta - with the horns under the striped sails, and the market will not give it back so easily.
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    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 16 February 2013 15: 47
      +1
      All of this is interesting, but these articles are speculations for now.
      1. nokki
        nokki 16 February 2013 17: 49
        35
        In those days when Swedish scientists positioned the Vikings almost demigods, Eastern Russia had a very speaking name in Europe - Gardarika (Country of Cities), the majority of the population had written language (Glagolitic; before that there were Russian runes - traits and cuts). The Swedes lived in very small groups (families), such as farms. They vegetated in neglect and ignorance. There you have it! Read the story!
        1. opkozak
          opkozak 17 February 2013 12: 15
          +5
          The Croatians who lived in the vicinity of the Carpathians wrote the Glagolitic, and now they can use it (they teach at school).
          In Ancient Russia, the Glagolitic alphabet was practically not used; only a few interspersed Glagolitic letters are found in texts written in Cyrillic. The Glagolitic alphabet was used primarily for the transmission of church texts, preserved ancient Russian monuments of everyday writing before the baptism of Russia (the earliest: the inscription on the pot from the Gnezdovo barrow dating from the 1st half of the 0th century) use the Cyrillic alphabet (http://ru.wikipedia.org/ wiki /% D93% 0% D0% BB% D0% B0% D3% B0% D0% BE% D0% BB% D8% B1% D86% XNUMX% D
          0% B0).
      2. Neringa285
        Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 01
        0
        This is not speculation - this is pure delirium. There are such things as a drakkar buried in the tomb of the king in Oserby, tapestries in Baillot, in England, where the images of the Vikings are embroidered and how they looked can be understood. There are sources of folklore, Younger Edda and Elder Edda, comments by Snorri Storulson and, in the end, witnesses of the Basileus, because the Viking squads served them. VIK - hiking, among the Danes - vikinger, among the Swedes - vikingar, among the Norwegians - vikingene.

        Abbot of the Lobb Abbey Volquin (965-990) wrote about the Normans as nordalbings (part of the Saxons), Chronist Ademar Shavansky (989-1034) called them transalbings (also part of the Saxons) ............. Not part of the Saxons - but northern white-headed warriors .... and trans-albingans - white-headed warriors moving across the seas .... why write such an illiterate article? For what purpose? They mixed the truth - 5% and 95% of nonsense, compiled and posted on the network.
        1. Neringa285
          Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 02
          -3
          Abbot of the Lobb Abbey Volquin (965-990) wrote about the Normans as nordalbings (part of the Saxons), Chronist Ademar Shavansky (989-1034) called them transalbings (also part of the Saxons) ............. Not part of the Saxons - but northern white-headed warriors .... and trans-albingans - white-headed warriors moving across the seas .... why write such an illiterate article? For what purpose? They mixed the truth - 5% and 95% of nonsense, compiled and posted on the network.
        2. Sandov
          Sandov 16 February 2013 23: 25
          13
          Neringa285,
          The article is interesting. It has long been known that the whole history of the West mercilessly distorted - correctly said, the market demanded. It is a pity that it would be unbiased to restore the true story, but the crowds of glutton and freeloaders will resist to the last.
          1. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 24
            -1
            The article is worthless. 95 percent of the purest nonsense. Read our Scandinavists, not Western ones. Read Tarle, Nikitin, Pokhlebkin, Vasiliev .... All studies were conducted in Soviet times, so trust in these people is complete!
        3. DeerIvanovich
          DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 00: 41
          +9
          Byzantine emperors were Vikings, but not fictional Vikings !!!
        4. Rink
          Rink 18 February 2013 01: 58
          +5
          What language was spoken in medieval Sweden? We read (with pictures) http://vanda-rakitska.livejournal.com/18923.html

          As for the "folklore" of the "ancient" Vikings, just ask about their "originals". Nothing that not a single original of the sagas has survived, only later copies? And even those "are discovered" by historians relatively recently. For this very reason, historians do not recognize our "Veles's Book", for example - the original has not survived.

          After all, for some reason, the Vikings became popular only very recently:
          "Interest in this phenomenon has emerged relatively recently. In 1803," The History of Sea Robbers "by F. Archengolts appeared on the shelves of booksellers. ....
          ..., in 1834, in Stockholm comes out .... the first book conceived by A. Stringolm ... study "The history of the Swedish people from ancient to the present."
          An unprecedented increase in interest in the history of the "movement of the Vikings" was revealed in the years 1850-1920 after a series of sensational finds of their ships. In 1930, a solid monograph by T. Kendrick entitled "History of the Vikings" was published in Oxford, and since then the stream of literature of the most varied nature on this topic has not dried up. "


          And if you read not the works of the Scandinavian researchers of recent times, but, for example, the annals of the Arabs, who belonged to Spain at that time, then it directly says that the Vikings who traveled to Spain were Slavic tribe. And not only they talk about it ... The Vikings who captured and plundered Paris were Slavs, according to contemporaries. Roman authors testify that the entire Baltic, including its northern shores, was inhabited and controlled by strong Slavic tribes.

          So the mention of "northern white-headed warriors" does not automatically mean only the Swedes.

          Remember: "the Russian people are the fair-haired people"? and in the Baltic at that time it was the Slavs who decided everything, and Rügen was their main support.
          So when archaeologists find a warship on Rügen, or off the coast of France with Spain, this also does not automatically mean that it was built by the "ancient Swedes". And the fact that almost all the finds of Viking warships are not located in Sweden - probably also should be suggestive?
          The graves in Gostad and Osberg are Norway, not Sweden.
          But most of the ship finds are located on the southern coast of the Baltic - Germany, up to and including Denmark. And according to all the chronicles, these areas were then inhabited by Western Slavic tribes ...

          And the etymology of the term "Viking" itself still raises questions.
          "The origin of the word" viking "(vi'kingr) is still unclear. Scientists have long associated this term with the name of the Norwegian region of Vik (Viken) adjacent to the Oslofjord. But in all medieval sources the inhabitants of Vik are not called" Vikings " , ..... ... ... believed that the word "viking" ... from the word vi'k - bay, bay; viking - one who hides in the bay. .... Finally, the word "viking" tried associate with Old English wic (from Lat. vicus), denoting a trading post, a city, a fortified camp.
          At present, the hypothesis of the Swedish scientist F. Askeberg, who believes that the term comes from the verb vikja - "to turn", "to deviate". ..... Note that in the eyes of the Scandinavians the word "viking" had a negative connotation. .....

          Maybe scientists in the wrong languages ​​are looking for the roots of the word, and that's why they are still arguing?
    2. andrei332809
      andrei332809 16 February 2013 16: 09
      28
      hummed. the ancient Swedes appeared. We have few first-bloods, adamians, psheks (also great). Lord, cleanse the land of your "sons"
      1. Fox
        Fox 16 February 2013 16: 43
        12
        Quote: andrei332809
        yelled

        dear, you probably just have not heard about the "great" warriors Uzbeks, Tajiks .... etc .... and all this in all seriousness! with a courageous face is narrated.
        1. andrei332809
          andrei332809 16 February 2013 16: 50
          +3
          Quote: Fox
          , you probably just haven't heard about the "great" warriors Uzbeks, Tajiks .... etc .... and all this in all seriousness! with a courageous face is narrated.

          you know, surprisingly, I heard. oh well, one great nationality has become more
          1. воронов
            воронов 16 February 2013 19: 27
            19
            Not one, but as many as 3. There were also "great Kazakhs", as they themselves say, earlier they were called Kaz Ak (translated as White Swan), the "great and ancient" civilization of Central and Central Asia. True, so far not a single one. its city and signs of statehood were not found, and the very concept of Kazakh did not exist until the 20s, before the formation of the USSR, this is confirmed by historical documents, but they will be found. There were also "great Azerbaijanis", direct descendants of the Assyrians, as Azerbaijani historians say. yes
            1. andrei332809
              andrei332809 16 February 2013 19: 35
              +5
              Quote: voronov
              There were also "great Kazakhs" like

              Well then, I'll go hang myself. and why did I believe the old Darwin. Or did he not know about the existence of the nationalities from which the monkeys descended?
              1. alexng
                alexng 17 February 2013 09: 14
                +4
                Quote: andrei332809
                I believed the old Darwin. or he did not know about the existence of the nationalities from which the monkeys descended


                In, in! That monkey came from man. As soon as one of the nationalities proclaimed itself a man-forming nation, the process of turning into a monkey immediately turned on. Therefore, there are so many varieties of monkeys on earth.
              2. vadson
                vadson 17 February 2013 17: 13
                +1
                well yes long live the great monkey laughing
              3. implacable
                implacable 18 February 2013 00: 22
                0
                Darwin would quickly understand who the monkeys came from if he had seen someone from your family, for example, your grandfather.
        2. FREGATENKAPITAN
          FREGATENKAPITAN 16 February 2013 17: 48
          +8
          In vain, my dear, are you laughing .... Remember Timur? The only one who defeated the Mongols at that time .......... who was by nationality? All over uzbek
          1. воронов
            воронов 16 February 2013 19: 33
            +4
            I do not argue about the Uzbeks, there was Timur, Ulukbek, Alisher Navoi, the conqueror of India, Andijan Babur (tiger) good
          2. andrei332809
            andrei332809 16 February 2013 23: 11
            +2
            Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
            In vain dear you are laughing

            comrade boatswain! well, how can you not be ashamed? humor heals, but otherwise the jumps of all sorts of "nezalezhnosti" (no offense to friends with ho-hla-nd-s) differently perceive ...
          3. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 27
            +1
            Ulug-bek is a great warrior and astronomer. As for the Swedes, it’s not a sin to recall 1700-1721 - the Northern War. 21 years Russia fought with a negligible Sweden. 21 years. Given the difference in the size of territories, population and t
            etc., etc.
            1. Sorokin
              Sorokin 18 February 2013 00: 34
              +2
              Quote: Neringa285
              Ulug-bek is a great warrior and astronomer.

              Sultan Muhammad ibn Shahrukh ibn Timur Ulugbek Guragan - for the simple Ulugbek. Never a warrior, although from childhood he shied with his no less famous grandfather TIMUR on military campaigns. Not horse feed t.s. He did not become a military man - well, glory be to Allah. But, a scientist and a poet from God. In addition to astronomy and geography, he was fond of poetry and history. Ulugbek’s experience in the development of science and art is a rare case of using what is now called the “administrative resource” for the benefit of science and education. At least, there were no problems with the "sponsors" of the construction - who of the rich people dare to refuse to donate to Timur, the grandson of MOST.
              In 1147, he was defeated by his son, "the villainous outrageous" Abd al Latif, who also ruined his brother to the pile. He surrendered to the troops of his son, was convicted and beheaded according to the verdict of the Sharia court on false charges.
          4. A. Yaga
            A. Yaga 19 February 2013 15: 38
            -3
            FREGATENKAPITAN,
            In vain, my dear, are you laughing .... Remember Timur? The only one who defeated the Mongols at that time .......... who was by nationality? All over uzbek

            What kind of Mongols? The Mongols have never fought with anyone. Ordinary nomad herders. They could only be enslaved and exterminated. A "worthy" occupation for a great warrior.
        3. Nick
          Nick 17 February 2013 00: 13
          +3
          Quote: Fox
          dear, you probably just have not heard about the "great" warriors Uzbeks, Tajiks .... etc .... and all this in all seriousness! with a courageous face is narrated.

          In ancient times, it was just so respected Fox. In ancient Asia, there were great civilizations in ancient times. . Speaking of Tajiks, have you heard of the great scientist and physician Abu Ibn Sin? in European transcription Avicenna. So, he was Tajik by nationality. And in the Uzbek Samarkand Timur ruled, a strong commander who defeated the Golden Horde, made campaigns in India, Iran ...
        4. A. Yaga
          A. Yaga 17 February 2013 00: 17
          -4
          Quote: Fox
          Quote: andrei332809
          yelled

          dear, you probably just have not heard about the "great" warriors Uzbeks, Tajiks .... etc .... and all this in all seriousness! with a courageous face is narrated.


          About how much more you need to laugh! I won’t drink so much!
          1. andrei332809
            andrei332809 17 February 2013 00: 28
            +1
            Quote: A. Yaga
            I won’t drink so much!

            so I don’t regret my liver. the second ends, but my friend and I didn’t understand where the life on earth comes from
        5. ia-ai00
          ia-ai00 17 February 2013 09: 11
          +5
          Sure. it is difficult to understand what was 200 ... 300 years ago. But even what happened during our lifetime, our fathers and grandfathers are being misled by whoever is not lazy and how they want! Read the textbooks of the former "brotherly" peoples of the USSR, and you will learn, for example, that the Kazakhs have been in the "occupation" of Russia for over 200 years. Do other republics remember that Russia saved them from complete destruction? So how can you figure out that historical facts have been "rewritten" dozens of times to please these or those rulers?
      2. Joker
        Joker 16 February 2013 20: 23
        +4
        yelled. the ancient Swedes appeared

        It's bad that you find it funny, you don't have to laugh here, because our story was also edited by them, there was already a topic about Rurik on the site. They have already stuck their nose everywhere with the Germans, so our entire history requires a very thorough revision. And what about the Swedes themselves and someone else thinks about ourselves, we should not give a damn, we need to take care of our history, and not accept all the speculations of foreign "educators" that they have been writing history for themselves for a long time, it is clear to everyone, well, they do not have their great stories, so they are trying to intercept something from the neighbors.
      3. Ascetic
        Ascetic 16 February 2013 23: 41
        14
        andrei332809,
        They say that recently during excavations they found a stone-carved and perfectly preserved image of Skallagrimmungerstinsnipsnapsnurrerioringingsdottira - the god of diction and memory among the ancient Scandinavians

        Instructions from the American children's book:
        To come up with a name for yourself, like a Viking, you need:
        1. Add to your name the word "bloody" and the name of your favorite weapon. For example, if your name is Daniel, and your favorite weapon is your super-strong thumb, then your Viking name will be Daniel Bloody Thumb (Horseradish - mine)

        Или:
        2. Add to your name your most memorable quality - the worse, the better. For example, if your name is James, and you are known for spewing deadly smelly gases, your Viking name will be James Poisonous Pukach. (Fart-approx ..)
        1. Tersky
          Tersky 16 February 2013 23: 46
          +6
          Quote: Ascetic
          the name will be James Poison Pukach. (Fart-approx ..)
          good !!!
          But they forgot to attach instructions for users of Viking armor with the same name
        2. andrei332809
          andrei332809 17 February 2013 00: 42
          +8
          Ascetic and Joker. Men, I was in Hindu, and theirs all kinds of "Brahmaputras" preach in their temples that the concept of God came to them from people born with milky skin and called Russes
          I forgot to add, I didn’t plus you. But only because of your marshal-a-hell. Yours faithfully. Andrei

          Quote: Ascetic
          Skallagrimmungerstinsnipsnapsnurreryoringsdottira - god

          and once again it’s good to scoff at you, we couldn’t even read. I don’t know how to put smiles
      4. opkozak
        opkozak 16 February 2013 23: 57
        +3
        Tapestry from Bayeux (sometimes a carpet from Bayeux; English Bayeux Tapestry; French Tapisserie de Bayeux) - a monument of medieval art, which is embroidered on linen 48/53 cm wide and 68,38 m long. It depicts scenes of preparation for the Norman conquest of England and Battle of Hastings, created at the end of the XI century. Currently, the tapestry is exhibited in a special museum in the city of Bayeux, in Normandy, and belongs to the national heritage of the French Republic.
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80_%D0%B8%D0%B7_%D0%91%
        D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%91
        Learn the materiel.
    3. Ragnarek
      Ragnarek 16 February 2013 16: 18
      20
      the Scandinavians lived almost in a primitive communal system, and the territory of Rusiu was called Gardarika - the country of cities. Well, who brought culture to whom. Regular ancient Ukrainian, etc.
      1. krisostomus
        krisostomus 17 February 2013 01: 49
        -6
        Again, fantasies went into action. The word "gardarika" was first mentioned in the last quarter of the 12th century and is mentioned again by the Scandinavians.
      2. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs 17 February 2013 07: 46
        -6
        Gardarika called the lands of the Western Slavs, Polaba Rus. This claim has no relation to the Novgorod or Kiev lands.
    4. GOLUBENKO
      GOLUBENKO 16 February 2013 16: 26
      18
      The Varangians ruled in the Baltic Sea and the sea was called Varyazhsky.
      And the Varangians are the South Baltic Slavs, brave warriors and excellent sailors.
      And who were you? Yes, no one was calling them. The Vikings did not meddle in the Baltic for it was fraught.
      The Swedes, like other geyropeytsam not long left, will die out of homosexuality and HIV. And to dream and compose tales of a heroic past in the absence of a real understandable desire, brutality is not enough.
      The main thing is not to forget the army of Charles XII Poltava battle and who is to blame.
      1. ruton
        ruton 16 February 2013 16: 35
        +7
        Yes, they are becoming extinct, an aging nation ..
        And they remember it well, at the genetic level)) there is still talk that Russia will conquer us in a week laughing
        1. воронов
          воронов 16 February 2013 20: 01
          +4
          We had an officer in the regiment by the name of Oslin, a native of Tobolsk, then we lieutenants were teasing him about his last name, where are the donkeys supposed to be in Tobolsk? He laughed at him, but I said there, once I got here in Zab.VO (Forget To Get Out Of Here) .And then it turns out that he is a descendant of a Swedish officer captured near Poltava, exiled to Tobolsk, and so he stayed there, took root, and their last name was from Oslo, where their descendant was from. But our Donkey man was normal and we did not take him prisoner. laughing
      2. Urrry
        Urrry 16 February 2013 19: 21
        +4
        nd, very often speaking about Rurik, for some reason, they begin to write about the "Vikings" ... but no chronicles call him "Viking" - he is called exclusively "Varangian" ...
      3. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 16 February 2013 20: 28
        -4
        It was from these "brave sailors and excellent warriors" that the speaking word came, which completely defines them, from head to toe. This word is a thief!
        1. urganov
          urganov 16 February 2013 23: 24
          +3
          Only not "thief" but "enemy" "thief". Sorry.
    5. Committee
      Committee 16 February 2013 16: 27
      +4
      Svei means "their own", but why do they not want to be their own, but in general there are how many millions of them? Is it worth paying special attention, after all, everyone wants to be "great" and they too, but what cannot be tolerated at all is when the "greatness" of all these dwarfs infringes upon our modest existence next to these "greatest" and "ancient" (by the way, there are fewer people in the whole of Norway than in Moscow).
    6. Kaa
      Kaa 16 February 2013 16: 39
      40
      "The chronicle tradition connects the beginning of Russia with the vocation of the Varangians. So" The Tale of Bygone Years "tells that in 862 three Varangian brothers with their families came to rule the Slavs, laying the foundation of the city of Ladoga. But where did these Varangians come from and who were the origin After all, in historiography they managed to be Swedes, Danes, and Scandinavians in general; some authors considered the Vikings as Normans, others, on the contrary, as Slavs For the ancient chronicler, the origin of the Vikings was obvious. He placed their lands on the southern Baltic coast right up to "to the land of Aglian", that is, to the area of ​​Angeln in Holstein. Today it is the North German state of Mecklenburg, whose population in ancient times was not German. What it was - this is evidenced by the names of the settlements of Varin, Russov, Rerik and many others that have survived to this day.Confusion was introduced by a version appeared in political circles at the court of the Swedish king about the origin of Rurik from Sweden, which was subsequently picked up by some German historians. Objectively speaking, this version did not have the slightest historical foundation, but was completely politically determined. Even during the years of the Livonian war between Ivan the Terrible and the Swedish king Johan III, a heated debate broke out over the issue of titling. The Russian tsar considered the Swedish ruler to come from a "manly family", to which he replied that the ancestors of the Russian dynasty itself allegedly came from Sweden. This idea finally took shape as a political concept on the eve of the Time of Troubles at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, when the Swedes claimed the Novgorod lands, trying to justify their territorial claims with a kind of chronicle "vocation"... It was assumed that the Novgorodians were supposed to send an embassy to the Swedish king and invite him to rule, as they once allegedly called the "Swedish" prince Rurik. The conclusion about the "Swedish" origin of the Varangians at that time was based only on the fact that they came to Russia "from overseas", which means, most likely, from Sweden. Subsequently, in the first half of the XNUMXth century, German scientists from the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences turned to the Varangian theme, who, using the same logic, sought to substantiate German domination in Russia during the reign of Biron. They also formulated the so-called. "Norman theory", according to which the Varangians, the founders of the ancient Russian state, were recognized as immigrants from Sweden (ie "Germans", as all foreigners were called then). At the same time, many outstanding historians, starting with M.V. Lomonosov, pointed out that the "Norman theory" does not correspond to real facts. For instance, The Swedes could not create a state in Russia in the XNUMXth century, if only because they themselves did not have statehood at that time. In the Russian language and in Russian culture, it was not possible to find Scandinavian borrowings. The chronicler distinguished the Varangians from the Swedes and other Scandinavian peoples, writing that "those Varangians were called Rus, as others are called Swedes, some Normans, Angles, other Goths". Therefore, when concluding peace treaties with Byzantium pagan warriors of princes Oleg and Igor (the same Varangians whom the Normans consider the Swedish Vikings) swore the names of Perun and Veles, and not Odin or Thor.. http://www.slavyanskaya-kultura.ru/slavic/history/ryurik-pervyi-ruskii-knjaz.htm

      l
      1. skrgar
        skrgar 16 February 2013 17: 31
        10
        Put + .. Absolutely everything is correct .. And the belonging of the Varangians .. and who they are .. and in general why they were called "Varangians" .. So there is already a documentary film .. for which people collected money .. and took M. Zadornov with his comrades. According to their research: .. It all started with the fact that they cooked salt .. "VAR" .. Well, then they began to sell it, carry it .. Well, since salt was very expensive .. then to master the military craft .. Well and there "went - went" .. And so, yes, they were Slavs ...
        1. s1н7т
          s1н7т 16 February 2013 19: 13
          +3
          Quote: skrgar
          And the belonging of the Varangians .. and who they are .. and in general why they were called "Varangians"

          Offhand, the wargs are a West Slavic tribe in what is now Germany, isn't it?
        2. Neringa285
          Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 04
          -1
          I assure you .. not from VAR comes the name - Varangians.
          1. skrgar
            skrgar 16 February 2013 20: 26
            +1
            Well, maybe not from the VAR ..- I just sounded the research I saw .. And why then "Varangians" ?? (thanks in advance)
            1. Neringa285
              Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 20
              -2
              other scand. Vaeringjar..these are the same Vikings! only in the Slavic language dialect .... Varangians. Occupation: Participation in sea trade-predatory and aggressive campaigns, military assistance to the employing country.
              1. heathen
                heathen 18 February 2013 03: 41
                +1
                please name at least one people who would call themselves by occupation
          2. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 21
            -2
            Remember Varanger - the fjord ....
            1. Neringa285
              Neringa285 17 February 2013 22: 14
              0
              Because you put cons against obvious things, they will not be different. The Varanger fjord will remain the Varanger fjord, that is, the Varangian Gulf ....
              1. heathen
                heathen 18 February 2013 03: 57
                +2
                If in Eastern Norway there was a strong Varangian base (colony), which gave the name to this bay, then this is no reason to say that all Varangians are Scandinavians. On the shores of the Indian Ocean, for example, not only Indians live.
        3. opkozak
          opkozak 17 February 2013 00: 13
          -1
          They write (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian) like this:
          The Varangians or Varyags (Old Norse: Væringjar; Swedish: Väringar; Greek: Βάραγγοι, Βαριάγοι, Varangoi, Variagoi; Russian and Ukrainian: Varangians, Varyagi / Varyahy; Belarusian: Varagi, Varahi; Georgian: Variagi, Varahi; Georgian: the name რიარიაგები, Georgian: the name ვარიაგები) by Greeks and East Slavs to Vikings, who between the 9th and the 11th centuries ruled the medieval state of Rus', and formed the Byzantine Varangian Guard.
          With a simultaneous general decrease in Viking campaigns, the arrival of the Scandinavian Rus ceased, and the Varangians were gradually assimilated by the Eastern Slavs after the 11th century.
          So, if you see a healthy, tall red-haired guy - you know, he was a Swede, and he remained a Swede.
          1. heathen
            heathen 18 February 2013 04: 00
            0
            You still imagine a children's reader as an argument. Wikipedia is absolutely unreliable, because anyone writes it.
        4. heathen
          heathen 18 February 2013 03: 47
          -2
          Here Zadornov uttered nonsense.
          In general, this is not the first time with him, so it’s excusable.
          Although much, it must be said, in this film he sets out more or less correctly.
      2. krisostomus
        krisostomus 16 February 2013 21: 07
        -5
        No matter how critically the "Tale of Bygone Years" - this is the first written source on the history of Russia - there is simply nothing else. As there was nothing else for Lomonosov, except for emotions and chatter. The fact that the chronicler allegedly placed the Rus on the South Baltic coast is your imagination or speculation. The Chronicle says that "they went across the sea" to the Varangians, who called themselves "Rus", "as others are called Swedes, and some Normans and Angles, and still other Gotlandians - that's how these are." Most likely, the chronicler attributed to the Varangians all the "sailors" of the Varangian Sea known to him. Moreover, describing the tribes and their customs, the chronicler clearly distinguished which of them belongs to the Slavs, but there is not the slightest hint that the Varangians belonged to them in the original source.
        We can agree with Lomonosov that the Vikings did not create any statehood - they headed one principality of Novgorod and nothing more. There were at least a dime a dozen such "states" at that time. Each tribe had its own "prince", "king", "king", "leader" or something else. Around the same time, Rollo, the Varangian, formed the Duchy of Normandy, and his descendants Great Britain.
        Therefore, the "national" or "tribal" affiliation of Rurik today is just as unclear as in the time of the chronicler, everything else is fantasy.
        1. skrgar
          skrgar 16 February 2013 21: 38
          +6
          Well, "The Tale of Bygone Years" by the chronicler Nestor is now largely understood by linguists in a different way .. As for ".. posted the Rus on the South Baltic coast, these are your fantasies .." .. This is debatable .. and very much. HOW do you explain that Rurik came to Russia with his comrades-in-arms .. did not use "translators", interpreters ?? In general, M. Zadornov's film "Rurik. Lost Byl" .. somehow I believe more ... It's not like "the south of the Baltic "..and the whole Baltic and Germany .. in general lived the Rus-Slavs .. smile
          1. krisostomus
            krisostomus 16 February 2013 22: 45
            -6
            In the primary sources, there is not a word about the fact that Rurik did not use translators, as well as the one that he did. Nestor names and describes "the way from the Varangians to the Greeks", indicates that the "Slovenes" and Chudyu refused to pay tribute to the "Varangians" and drove them away, and only after that, when the disorder began again, they decided to summon the Vikings back. That is, the contacts of the Novgorodians with the "Varangians" existed long before Rurik and it is quite possible that they knew Rurik from previous contacts. Well, not the first who got to the "bum" - the boarder was called to the "chiefs".
            As for M. Zadornov, there is a well-known Russian proverb about a pastry maker and a shoemaker. And when the cake-maker tries to "shake the boots" - obviously the result is "soft-boiled boots".
            1. Egoza
              Egoza 16 February 2013 23: 37
              0
              Quote: krisostomus
              That is, contacts between Novgorodians and the "Varangians" existed long before Rurik and it is quite possible that they knew Rurik from previous contacts.

              By the way, in the legend about Sadko, and later in the opera by Rimsky-Korsakov, there is an "aria of the Varangian guest", which, in general, does not make a "benevolent" impression.
            2. Sandov
              Sandov 16 February 2013 23: 45
              +4
              krisostomus,
              All South Baltic tribes spoke Russian. So far, traces have remained throughout the geyrop. This is undeniable. No wonder scientists say that the Slavs gave the geyrope the white skin color.
              1. krisostomus
                krisostomus 17 February 2013 12: 24
                0
                This is just a variant of the "theory of ancient ukrov", which some here really like to ridicule. In those days, there was simply no Russian language, since there was no Russian people - there were separate Slavic tribes or tribal unions of the Slavs. It could just as well be argued that all the South Baltic Slavs spoke Polish, Czech, Slovak and Serbian.
                1. Sandov
                  Sandov 17 February 2013 21: 34
                  +2
                  krisostomus,
                  It may be interesting for you, all Slavic tribes spoke the same language - Old Russian. If you are interested, read Chudinova - Vagriya.
        2. skrgar
          skrgar 16 February 2013 22: 06
          +3
          Estonia ... okay !! smile
        3. Sandov
          Sandov 16 February 2013 23: 40
          +4
          krisostomus,
          German archaeologists jokingly said that there were traces of the Rus on their lands before magma. And Peter 1 mercilessly destroyed the chronicles, so there are no traces. But birch bark letters speak of the literacy of our ancestors, long before Western civilization. The modern "History" about the ancient world is perverted.
        4. DeerIvanovich
          DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 01: 00
          +6
          can you name 500 fantasy excavated Slavic settlements on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea from more than 2000 in Germany?
          Miller at the end of his life acknowledged the fallacy of his words in favor of Norman theory, for which Lomonosov once gave him a nose at one of the meetings of the Academy of Sciences.
          So, if you are lying, then at least rely on the facts that take place to be in reality, and not in your fantasies or the fantasies of your curators!
          1. krisostomus
            krisostomus 17 February 2013 13: 01
            -2
            And what does the settlement of the Slavs on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea have to do with it, and how is it connected with the "Varangians"? In general, traces of settlement of people in certain places date back to millennia BC, but this does not mean at all that these were settlements of "ancient Ukrov, Muscovites or Estonians." We are talking about the interpretation of the first surviving written source of Russian history, and some "patriotic historians" are trying to "suck" more from it than there actually is.
            The source clearly states that the delegation went to the "Varangians" and "overseas". What was going "overseas" if it was possible to walk straight along the coast and even inhabited by some Slavs and even with such a friendly mission as an invitation to rule oneself? Well, who would refuse to be a "boss"? Moreover, the chronicler, describing the settlement of the human race since the flood, knew very well about the existence of the Slavs and their resettlement, but nevertheless refers Rurik to the "Varangians".
            Well, if someone likes Rurik’s theory of Slavic origin, then by today's standards he can be identified as a Pole or a Czech.
            1. heathen
              heathen 18 February 2013 11: 36
              0
              Likewise, from Ladoga and to Sweden can be reached by land. So the argument is not substantiated.
              1. krisostomus
                krisostomus 18 February 2013 21: 55
                +1
                It is possible, but then it is necessary to go around the Gulf of Bothnia far to the north in almost uncharted places and through the territory, to put it mildly, with unfriendly and completely different language tribes. This is still a sparsely populated area, and what was more than 1000 years ago is even hard to imagine.
                If the chronicler confidently places the "aglitsk lands" behind the "svei", then it would be strange if he did not know the territory where the Slavs were spread and did not identify the Varangians with the Slavs.
                1. heathen
                  heathen 19 February 2013 13: 04
                  0
                  You look at the map - to the Slavic Labe and Pomerania stomp no less. And you also need to make a big hook. Yes, the peoples there lived more kindred. But the lands were still as wild and sparsely populated as the way to Sweden. In addition, in this case, one would have to wade not through the forest tundra, but through full forest jungle - then there were practically no roads. So in any case, the path through the water by the sea was 3 orders of magnitude easier.

                  Quote: krisostomus
                  If the chronicler confidently places the "aglitsk lands" behind the "svei",

                  here it is not necessary to overshoot. there is no Aglitz land in the annals.
                  Varѧzi smѣ kvstoku. to the end of Simov. on the same sea to the west. to the land of Hagarski and (19) to (15) Voloshsky̑kyє (20).

                  In other variants, as noted in note 19, instead of the word "Agarian" is "Aglian". Perhaps it was a scribal error. Since the closest Hagarians (Muslims) in the west were then already in Spain, the working version was "Aghlyan". Well, this is not England at all, but the Angeln region (the land of the Angles in Holstein). One of the laws of the Frankish emperor Charlemagne, approved at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, is considered as additional confirmation of this statement. at once for two neighboring regions and was called "Pravda Angles and Varangians".
        5. Jurkovs
          Jurkovs 17 February 2013 07: 58
          +2
          Overseas, this does not mean across the sea. It just means swimming in the sea.
        6. ia-ai00
          ia-ai00 17 February 2013 13: 36
          +7
          And there are no "sources" because since ancient times all the TESTIMONIALS of the history of Russia were barbarously destroyed, perverted, perverted by "Westerners" so that the Russians would not know their past, to destroy the feeling of patriotism, which, however, continues to this day. They are trying to convince us that our whole history, the whole life of our fathers, grandfathers and all ancestors is a complete mistake. Such rulers, I think the TRAITORS, like Gorbochev, Yeltsin and Medvedev help the enemies of Russia a lot. Some destroyed, others awarded the first for the collapse ... And the country was brought to its knees in front of the whole WORLD and instilled in young people a sense of guilt for their Motherland, spitting in the soul of the older generation ...
      3. Sandov
        Sandov 16 February 2013 23: 35
        +2
        Kaa,
        +++ Now I read V.A. Chudinova - VAGRIA (Varangians of Rus Yar). I recommend reading all these Vikings.
        1. heathen
          heathen 18 February 2013 11: 52
          0
          Chudinov's works, claiming to be discoveries in the field of epigraphy and paleography, are not recognized by academic science, and some historians classify his concept as a folk history. The conclusions of the Chudinov concept are not based on scientific methods of working with sources.
      4. DeerIvanovich
        DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 00: 55
        +4
        well, it’s not necessary to go too far, there was a city in Ladoga and before Rurik came, archaeologists have long confirmed this, in Soviet times there was even fiction on a historical topic in this regard.
        Yes, and about the annals: those Varangians were called - as others are called to the saints, ...
        rarogfilm.ru - there you can hear word for word from a museum employee who reads Old Slavonic from this oldest surviving record. not translations screwed from the bulldozer.
        1. krisostomus
          krisostomus 17 February 2013 13: 11
          0
          Well, the most famous and widespread translation of the chronicle from Old Slavonic into the modern language was made by Academician Likhachev - the most recognized authority on Old Russian literature among specialists. Well, if an employee of the museum or you personally consider Likhachev a "bastard", then this is something from the folk epic about Ivan the Fool, who always turned out to be the smartest.
      5. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs 17 February 2013 07: 54
        +3
        I specifically checked the sources, who and how interprets "from overseas." And no one explains specifically, but according to further conclusions, it follows that "from over the sea" means to sail across the sea. It is good to talk about this in the 18th century, but in 10 there could be such maps in such a projection that Sweden was in the neighborhood, but to the Varangians it was necessary to sail across the seas. So, the statement "from overseas" must be interpreted so that it is easier to sail there by sea.
    7. R1a1
      R1a1 16 February 2013 16: 41
      +1
      Well, what is there to comment. Small people from the last forces in greatness puffed up. And by the way, it’s not crap in historical ink:) They put on horns and with a monumental look, they jammed themselves on the museum wall, well, not ourselves, of course, we wash our hands) Learn from the Slavs) And we all are modest. Yes zaopalle already these pseudo-heroes and rzhachny British scientists.
    8. washi
      washi 16 February 2013 16: 44
      +1
      I have one conclusion. There were Slavic principalities. They lived nearby ..... (like the Caucasus and Central Asia in modern history). (do not confuse with the latest). These ..... under the guidance of ancient ukrov, and with the permission of the military (Varangians, also of Slavic nationality) went on a cruise along the whole of Europe, sometimes glancing at the British island. During the cruise we went ashore. Received gifts. Whoever was gifted with goods, and who felt sorry for the goods, was the body. This is how homosexual developed in Europe.
      And when the Scandinavians wanted independence, to take a break from the violence of the great ukrov, to rob and force without permission, they wound up on the island of Britain. And they are still afraid and will not see the Slavs. And remember with the good will of William that he escaped from the Slavs of the damned.
      1. krisostomus
        krisostomus 17 February 2013 02: 06
        -2
        Well, why such a derogatory and dismissive tone in relation to the Ukrainians? The Slavs are not only Russians and the history of all Slavs is completely different. Well, you want to attribute the "birthright" of everything and everything to the "ancient Muscovites" - for God's sake.
        1. DeerIvanovich
          DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 09: 44
          +1
          the Slavs have one story, not your fantasies
          1. krisostomus
            krisostomus 17 February 2013 13: 25
            +3
            World history is generally one. Just do not forget that any peoples before becoming a people were simply separate constantly warring tribes and peoples, they became when the most "nimble" of the tribal leaders united them into the people with fire and sword. And the relationship between modern Slavic peoples as before between them is far from "idyll".
    9. GOLUBENKO
      GOLUBENKO 16 February 2013 16: 55
      +7
      Reconstructed Varangian Armor
      1. washi
        washi 16 February 2013 17: 01
        +2
        Normal Slavic armor. Adapted to fight both with "knights" and with the light cavalry of nomads
      2. datur
        datur 16 February 2013 18: 44
        +2
        GOLUBENKO, I personally- GERMAN RUSSIAN-origin and so what?
        wink
        1. cherkas.oe
          cherkas.oe 16 February 2013 22: 53
          +9
          Quote: datur
          , I personally- GERMAN RUSSIAN-origin and so what?
          wink

          Handsome, GOOD MAN. I have the same German living in Germany, but for the new year he calls me and says: Olezha, let's sleep our Kuban pisnya, otherwise I’m already exhausted with the Fritz tsimi, I understand the tilka in their language, I can’t bother. By the way, a purebred German, father and mother from Kazakhstan are Germans, they lived in the Kuban since 1958, left for Germany back in 1993, and his (Volodka), wife of a Cossack (a mercantile infection) persuaded him to leave for Germany only in 98. Everything is already in German. his wife and daughters and grandchildren speak, but he does not. He says: I want to speak their language. The house in the village has not yet been sold, the mother-in-law is looking after and the brother-in-law. He says: "- And maybe we are more reliable, and de todi live budemo. From so.
          1. Tersky
            Tersky 16 February 2013 23: 51
            +6
            Quote: cherkas.oe
            He says: "- And maybe we are more reliable, and de todi live budemo. From so.

            good Correctly he says, the motherland is not where you live, but where you were born ...
          2. Egoza
            Egoza 17 February 2013 10: 58
            0
            Quote: cherkas.oe
            He says: "- And maybe we are more reliable, and de todi live budemo. From so.

            Intelligent man! This is how the EU will start to fall apart - so they will immediately return! And they’ll do it right!
          3. datur
            datur 17 February 2013 16: 17
            +3
            cherkas.oe, gee, but my mine was never able to persuade me to leave for my “historical” homeland !!!! wink I'm fine here!!!!!
    10. stalker
      stalker 16 February 2013 17: 08
      -2
      Here we laugh at the next "great ukrami", but we ourselves have such a city .... all sorts of Fomenki clog the brains of the youth that the "Russians" and Rome founded, and the Chinese wall was built. And they are printed in large editions. Question - at whose expense the banquet Who benefits from this?
      1. R1a1
        R1a1 16 February 2013 18: 01
        +7
        But the fact that our ancestors built the Chinese Wall, you personally, laugh in vain. Otherwise, to begin with, explain why the loopholes in her are looking towards China.
        Have you finally seen this wall? Her new buildings?
      2. washi
        washi 16 February 2013 18: 04
        +6
        The fact is that HISTORY, like PHILOSOPHY, is currently not science, but PROPAGANDA. Given the finances, I will prove that Queen Victoria loved Alexander 3 and that is why she urged all English women to depict a log. And that is why during the reign of Alexander 3 there were no wars.
    11. Locksmith
      Locksmith 16 February 2013 17: 23
      +2
      Ana taganda, a tratata machine gun, call it nonsense, take offense, ask for an argument to present its version, take offense with reference to chauvinism, send it to you, politeness does not allow, so it’s zero. laughing
    12. kush62
      kush62 16 February 2013 17: 24
      +4
      RELEVANTLY REMEMBER THE PROVERSE "EVERY KULIK PRAISES ITS SWAMP"
    13. Cynic
      Cynic 16 February 2013 17: 28
      19
      The tourism industry, using the Viking brand, guarantees us the best sale of our works.

      Summarizing - Nothing personal, it's just a business!
      And under this slogan we are offered to lose the past. And even to participate in this! Like, the real history of Russia is not interesting, but ...
      If you want to defeat a people ... take away his faith from him and make him forget his past ...

      1. Egoza
        Egoza 16 February 2013 21: 15
        +6
        I would like to put under this picture:
        "We need lands - we will conquer.
        We need money - we’ll take it without waiting for someone to give it.
        We need influence - let's give it to the neck, and say that it was so.
        We need children ... hmm, generally understandable "
        drinks lol hi
      2. Sandov
        Sandov 16 February 2013 23: 53
        +3
        Cynic,
        The history of the Russians is interesting, but little studied, and also perverted by the west. An immense field of work for our scientists in the restoration of truth.
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 17 February 2013 16: 43
          +1
          Quote: Sandov
          The history of the Russians is interesting, but little studied

          In essence, it is formalized to horror!
          There will never be a scientist like Lobachevsky!
      3. opkozak
        opkozak 17 February 2013 00: 23
        +2
        So there you go! It is possible and so.
    14. Renat
      Renat 16 February 2013 17: 37
      +8
      I have a colleague - Chuvashin. So he told with a laugh that his ancestors (Chuvashs) at one time taught the Egyptians to build pyramids. A year later, I myself fell into the hands of a book where exactly it was written.
      1. Serush
        Serush 16 February 2013 19: 08
        +3
        Not Chuvash - Chuvash.
        1. cherkas.oe
          cherkas.oe 16 February 2013 23: 02
          0
          Quote: Serush
          Not Chuvash - Chuvash.

          Chuvashin is a surname, but what did you think?
          1. DeerIvanovich
            DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 01: 14
            0
            he just reads inattentively, apparently they didn’t teach at school
      2. Urrry
        Urrry 16 February 2013 19: 50
        +3
        he is a chuvash - but how did you call him an insult for him ... nevertheless, why does he insult him? And yes - about the origin of the Chuvash L. Gumilyov still wrote ... their ancestors did not build the pyramids in Egypt, but the history of their people is quite worthy of respect
        1. Renat
          Renat 16 February 2013 20: 29
          0
          To blame. But friendship with him does not ruin anything. Thanks for the tip. I’ll talk to him about this.
        2. DeerIvanovich
          DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 01: 15
          0
          he wrote that the Chuvash were his ancestors. what you people read something carefully forgotten how ???
      3. DeerIvanovich
        DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 01: 13
        +1
        Chuvash, Mordvin, Mariel - everyone has the same talk. official history claims otherwise. but fortunately I had the opportunity to travel in the Volga region. I definitely say - a single people, not some kind of finougres. Yes, partly during the time of the Swedish persecution of the Karelians, when part of the Karelians became Orthodox and left to us to save the Russians from the Swedish genocide. for the most part, their Tver and Novgorod regions took root, and nevertheless, some left further. and now the fact that Mordovians and Mariels are Finno-Ugrians attracts us by the ears. looking at them, not only that in dialect and appearance, they are similar. here they are then the ancestors of the Volga Bulgaria, which in fact was originally Slavic. the most surprising is that the outfits are similar in both. their customs, which are so similar to the pagan Slavic, are similarly similar. for example, the Marielians still worship the forest.
        1. calculator
          calculator 17 February 2013 07: 29
          0
          Yes .... 800 km from Moscow, and still not a baptized people, pagans.
          1. DeerIvanovich
            DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 09: 51
            0
            Well, why, those baptized are Orthodox, but they have not forgotten their customs.
        2. Grenader
          Grenader 17 February 2013 17: 05
          +4
          This is where you dear traveled and whose talk they listened to? The Chuvash language belongs to the group of Turkic languages, and the Mari and Mordovian languages ​​belong to the Finugor languages. Volga Bulgaria was a Muslim state. The Chuvashs are Volga Bogars who fled from the horde.
    15. wolk71
      wolk71 16 February 2013 18: 40
      +4
      Interestingly written traces of syphilis on his forehead , Europe didn’t bring anything good to Russia. The plague and other diseases that killed entire cities in Europe in Russia were not.
      1. Cynic
        Cynic 16 February 2013 19: 23
        +4
        Quote: wolk71
        The plague and other diseases that killed entire cities in Europe in Russia were not.

        Why do you think so?
        Prayer and the Life-giving Cross drove away?
        Very effective anti-epidemic measures by the state were applied. And who knows about this from international piety? Well, suppose many people know, he is a specialist in Africa and a specialist, but to declare this to the whole world ... Well, I think it’s clear.
        1. wolk71
          wolk71 16 February 2013 21: 31
          +6
          The fact is that in Europe, emptying was thrown into the street, and in Russia there were latrines, and there were baths, and in Europe they washed "once a year", and even then they did not have baths in clothes.
      2. krisostomus
        krisostomus 16 February 2013 21: 44
        -3
        It is necessary to refer to the primary sources "chronicles" more often - then there will be no need to fantasize.
        The first, more or less detailed information about the common disease found in the annals dates back to 1092. In almost all chronicles, we find a description of the plague in Russia, which, despite being somewhat fantastic, clearly indicates that this year there was a rampant disease, accompanied by extraordinary mortality. We cite the words of the chronicler: “It is fortunate to be Polotsk: formerly in the night of tuten (fog), standing along the streets, like people rushing demons; It’s whoever crawled out of the khoromin, although you see, Abye was hurt more and more invisibly from ulcers, and from then on dying, and not more than climb out of the choir, but now the very beginning are on horseback, and you don’t see them, but you see their horse hooves; and I pluck people with plossy and its region. ”
        In 1187, the general disease again visited Russia. “In the same summer,” says the chronicler, “speedy sickness is strong in people, no more than a single yard without pain, and in another courtyard no one is better than healthy, no one is better than water and tax, but it’s all painful to lie down.”
        In 1230, a terrible epidemic erupted in Smolensk, accompanied by enormous mortality, although at the same time a terrible famine raged throughout Russia, which also claimed many victims, but in the annals the pestilence in Smolensk sharply differs from “pestilence.” “That same summer, the pestilence is strong in Smolensz, having created four skudelnitsa and putting in two 16 thousand, and in the third 7000, and in the fourth 9000. Be quick for two summers.” A few years later, in 1237, Pskov and Izborsk suffered a similar fate. “In the summer of 1237, more and more pissed off at people in Pskov and Izborsk, old and young people, husbands and wives and small children ...”.
        The plague appeared in Pskov in the summer of 1352 and, apparently, immediately assumed vast dimensions. Mortality was enormous. The priests did not have time to bury the dead. During the night, up to 30 or more corpses were accumulated at each church. 3-5 corpses were put in one coffin. Everyone was overcome by fear and horror. Seeing death everywhere and constantly before them and considering the fatal outcome inevitable, many began to think only about saving the soul, went to monasteries, distributed their property, and sometimes even children to strangers, thereby transferring the infection to new homes. Finally, the Pskovites, seeing nowhere salvation, not knowing what measures to take, sent ambassadors to Novgorod to Archbishop Vasily, asking him to come to Pskov to bless the inhabitants and pray with them about the end of the plague. Vasily fulfilled their request, arrived in Pskov and went around the city with a religious procession. On the way back he fell ill and died on July 3. He probably became infected in Pskov.
    16. andsavichev2012
      andsavichev2012 16 February 2013 18: 53
      -2
      The hatchet in the photo from the museum also looks like a decorative hatchet. Battle axes had a different shape.

      The role of the prince in ancient Novgorod, Polotsk, Pskov is akin to the Minister of Defense, real princely power will begin in the 11th century, in the South. Rurik and the brothers fought well, Kiev returned to the Novgorodians, but did not deal with issues of state building. And his descendants have already become princes in the modern sense.

      By the way, about the Chinese wall. Snowmen built, the aliens from Sirius led the construction, to protect the Hyperboreans from the Atlanteans. Therefore, it is not turned in any direction, but universal. Under Mao, it was re-equipped by analogy with the Maginot line, under the wall - missile mines and barracks. Well this is well known. Do not believe me - ask A. Chapman.
      1. Passing
        Passing 16 February 2013 20: 02
        +3
        Quote: andsavichev2012
        The role of the prince in ancient Novgorod, Polotsk, Pskov is akin to the Minister of Defense, real princely power will begin in the 11th century, in the South. Rurik and the brothers fought well, Kiev returned to the Novgorodians, but did not deal with issues of state building. And his descendants have already become princes in the modern sense.

        What kind of credible fantasies do you have))) Maybe you have at least some tangible evidence besides fantasies? Is there anything to refute the tale of bygone years?
        In the year 6370 (862). And they drove the Varangians out of the sea, and did not give them tribute, and began to rule themselves, and there was no truth among them, and the clan stood up to the clan, and there was a strife among them, and began to fight with each other. And they said: "Let us look for a prince for himself, who would rule us and dress us in a row and according to the law." We went overseas to the Varangians, to Russia. Those Varangians were called Rus, as others are called Swedes, and others - Normans and Angles, and also other Goths - like these. Chud, the Slavs, Krivichi and the whole, said to Russia: “Our land is great and plentiful, but there is no order in it. Come to reign and rule us. ” And three brothers with their clans were chosen, and took all Russia with them, and came primarily to the Slavs. And they put the city of Ladoga. And the eldest, Rurik, sat in Ladoga, and the other, Sineus, on the White Lake, and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. And from those Varangians the Russian land was nicknamed. Two years later, Sineus and his brother Truvor died. And Rurik took all the power and came to Ilmen, and set the city over Volkhov, and named it Novgorod, and sat here to reign, and began to distribute to the husbands his townships and towns to set - that Polotsk, this Rostov, another Belozero. The Varangians in these cities are the finders, and the natives in Novgorod are the Slavs, in Polotsk they are Krivichi, in Rostov they are Merya, in Beloozero they are all, in Murom they are Murom, and Rurik dominated all of them.

        And he had two husbands, not his relatives, but the boyars, and they took leave in Constantinople with their clan. And they went along the Dnieper, and when they sailed past, they saw a small city on the mountain. And they asked: “Whose town is this?” Those answered: “There were three brothers, Kiy, Schek and Khoriv, ​​who built this city and perished, and we sit here, their relatives, and pay tribute to the Khazars.” Askold and Dir remained in this city, gathered many Varangians and began to own the land of the glades. Rurik reigned in Novgorod.

        By the way, according to the results of archaeological excavations, Ladoga was burned at the same time, radiocarbon analysis showed time with an accuracy of several years. The truth is not clear by whom exactly, either by some Varangians who later drove him away, and Rurik by himself, or these same Varangians and walked near Rurik, at first they gave him a kick, he was offended, returned, burned the refuge of the most stubborn, after which the Slavs became more polite, and delicately described those events with the phrase “Our earth is great and plentiful, but there is no order in it. Come to reign and own us. ")))
        1. washi
          washi 16 February 2013 20: 27
          0
          And when you consider that the story is ruined, Ivan the Terrible can. Only what 3 or 4.
          And who knows about Ivan 1 and 2?
          1. ramzes1776
            ramzes1776 16 February 2013 20: 58
            +2
            Maybe we can make the history of ancient Russia stupid for ourselves and teach this to children at school that we were the very best. And to the truth, as it was, now not a single historian will get to the bottom of it. It’s been written a hundred times every ruler wrote his own okay.
            1. Passing
              Passing 16 February 2013 21: 37
              +1
              Quote: ramzes1776
              Maybe we can do stupidly for ourselves the history of ancient Russia

              Actually, the whole enlightened world does just that. And we need to do the same. If you yourself do not want to write your own story, then someone else’s uncle will write it with pleasure for you, naturally not in your favor. But! It is important to compose a very plausible version, very skillfully weave a favorable interpretation into the available facts, so that no inadvertently unearthed scroll does not cross out the built version for centuries, and that all sorts of fomenko have less food for trolling.
              1. ramzes1776
                ramzes1776 16 February 2013 22: 19
                +1
                Well, we have everything for this and there are institutions and various centers for studying on this topic. For example, http://iriran.ru/?q=node/3
                1. Passing
                  Passing 16 February 2013 23: 10
                  +5
                  The fact of the matter is that we have gigantic problems in this matter. There is a scientific community, but it is in itself occupied with some of its purely internal affairs, and in no way does it respond to the challenges of the times.
                  And the challenges are simple - the West is putting its version of history, its worldview into our heads, through the media, the Internet, and other public places. Those. some "Western agents of influence" (not in the sense of spies and saboteurs, God forbid, but simply people with pro-Western views) speak the language of logic and facts directly with the thinking part of the people, while the Russian scientific community arrogantly ignores the people. It turns out a situation when, for example, I feel some kind of rigging in a dispute with a person, but I cannot refute, because the information of the "Western agent of influence" is purposefully and professionally formed at a high evidentiary level, formed, so to speak, in bulk for all "agents", and placed in the most easily accessible places, and on the contrary, I hang in an information vacuum, and longingly look at the thresholds of the archives and other accumulators of knowledge of the domestic scientific communities, which are tightly closed for mere mortals. Rather, I do not even need the archives themselves, I need reliable, easily accessible and highly structured information serving the interests of my country. But it is not there, the maximum that is - pitiful stubs in the form of rare articles by professionals for the general public, which still have to be found.
                  Those. our science does not participate in the formation of a picture of the world in our heads. Instead of it, journalists who are poor in their ignorance try to do this through television, who chew us, the electorate, on a truly correct view of the world, but alas, in recent years this has been done so primitively, so much as a clinic for the weak-minded, that no intelligent person seriously takes this information does not perceive.
                  1. heathen
                    heathen 18 February 2013 12: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Passing by
                    on the contrary, I hang in the information vacuum, and look longingly at the thresholds of the doors closed tightly for mortals to archives and other accumulators of knowledge of domestic scientific communities

                    chronicles and historical sources to help you :)
                    look here - http://www.vostlit.info/
                    1. Passing
                      Passing 18 February 2013 16: 10
                      +1
                      Thanks for the link, a content site, I will use it!
                      But this site, despite its rather rich content, is not at all what is required. Need a comprehensive site like Wikipedia. In the sense, it’s not a copy of Wikipedia written by professors of history, but something more multi-layered, more complete and better structured. Those. which includes not only the final article on a certain topic, but includes ALL in general. All historical sources (original texts, photos of scrolls, etc.), all books, all scientific research, etc. .. But at the same time, all this should not be a giant archive of files, but should be a highly structured environment for research, adjusting to the required depth of understanding of the issue under study. In the sense that, let's say, I need to find out what the Russian helmet of the Kulikovo battle looked like, and the system shows me not one thousand one hundred links, with links to one hundred books that do not exist in electronic form, but shows a certain compilation page, with a photo of a real archaeological artifact of the time, with a drawing-reconstruction of this helmet, with the performance characteristics of this helmet. If I want to study this issue more deeply, let’s say where this form was borrowed from, then excerpts from historical sources will appear accordingly — such as a treatise from, say, a Turkic one, an excerpt is given with a description and drawing of the ancestor of the Russian helmet.
                      You may argue that if you want to be competent, read the entire annals, books, etc., but the fact is that I do not need to be competent in history at all, I am not a professor of history, I need to be competent in a separate, local issue . And this is not my laziness, or reluctance to strain, it is a requirement of the time, naturally arising from the evolution of civilization - information becomes too much for the human brain, therefore it is impossible and even pointless to keep it in your head, the new paradigm requires the storage of information outside the head, with instant loading brain in case of need.
                      1. heathen
                        heathen 19 February 2013 12: 22
                        +1
                        I think about such a site and professors of history themselves dream. After all, in order to find out one question, they need to shovel whole paper mountains :)
                        And so - just poked a button and all the information is there.

                        The limit of my dreams in this regard so far is that digitized historical sources, both originals and translations, be maximally laid out on the Internet.
                2. cherkas.oe
                  cherkas.oe 16 February 2013 23: 16
                  +3
                  Quote: ramzes1776
                  Well, we have everything for this and institutions and all kinds of centers for studying on this topic.

                  Only there are Jews sitting. From them they will write a story from Moses.
                  1. ramzes1776
                    ramzes1776 17 February 2013 01: 09
                    0
                    Quote: cherkas.oe
                    Only there are Jews sitting. From them they will write a story from Moses.

                    it all depends on political will, namely the President. As the king says, it will be so!
              2. Sandov
                Sandov 17 February 2013 00: 03
                +1
                Passing,
                Fomenko mathematically calculated the chronology of events and proved its deception by Scaliger and other Western husks. The real history of our ancestors is much more interesting and ancient.
                1. Passing
                  Passing 17 February 2013 00: 33
                  +2
                  He exposed some myths, created some others;) And it’s okay to persuade convincingly, no, except for the pursuit of sensation and nothing is visible. This is not our method, our method is facts and only facts! ... but served at a favorable angle to us)))
                  1. ramzes1776
                    ramzes1776 17 February 2013 01: 11
                    +2
                    Quote: Passing by
                    our method is facts and only facts! ... but served at a favorable angle to us)))

                    These are the facts, if desired, you can do out of the blue!
                2. krisostomus
                  krisostomus 17 February 2013 13: 30
                  -1
                  You, dear, from Fomenko's "research" have drawn a completely opposite conclusion to him. He just asserts that the whole world history is more "compressed", and therefore less "ancient".
    17. Bosk
      Bosk 16 February 2013 18: 58
      +5
      We have here in Latvia if you ask the old lalish .. who are the Vikings then the Latvian will answer that it’s not even Swedes at all, but it’s Curonian, we have such I wouldn’t say that people are not the same, but the same Latvians living in the West Latvia and if you look at their armor helmets and swords plus even old engravings of their ships, then from ignorance we can say that this is all Swedish-Viking ...
      1. Neringa285
        Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 08
        +2
        And no wonder ... an open-air museum opens on the Curonian Spit at the site of the Viking settlement, there, near the village of Rybachy (we served there), they unearthed both the settlement and the altar of sacrifice ...
    18. andrejwz
      andrejwz 16 February 2013 19: 05
      +2
      Sathy must be signed.
      The source of what and who ...
    19. Igarr
      Igarr 16 February 2013 19: 08
      +5
      Bly-and-and-and-and-and-and-not-..
      all the buzz broken off. As always.
      Toka-toka ... he used the Radziwill Chronicle and the film "Odin" (where Kirk Douglas ... by the way, our friend, from Russia, though a Jew) ...
      current-to-current ... began to be proud of his Viking name - Igor, who on behalf of Ingvar ... happened .. (or maybe .. French in qwerre - that zanchit .. fighting, such a warlike) -
      and then again ....
      Nothing, okazza was not! It's a shame .... as much as teeth. I thought ... Viking, horseradish - Russian, it turns out.
      ...
      No one can be trusted, no one. All nae ......
      Only one ..Kaa - the light in the window.
      Well, lan, I’ll go get a stack of sivuhi, smell it with onuchs ... yes to the stove.
      Dream.....
      About the great past of Russia, which is yet to be.
      1. Cynic
        Cynic 16 February 2013 19: 29
        +3
        Quote: Igarr
        I thought ... Viking

        Ha Varangians and Vikings! Then the Vikings got to the West right up to North America, but to the east, no, no!
        wink
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 16 February 2013 19: 38
          +3
          Yep, exactly..
          so fell from the Varangians ... that right up to Greenland and Vinlanda ran.
          Or maybe they wanted to attack from the rear. From the Far East?
          And there - the Mongols ... yes to their teeth, to their teeth.
          The poor had to .. become samurai.
          1. Cynic
            Cynic 16 February 2013 19: 55
            +7
            Quote: Igarr
            And there are the Mongols ...

            Mmm
            In the Chinese annals, a certain nation is mentioned: ding-lins.
            In general, the Katai emperor decided to find out what was there north and sent an army.
            Hmm. Gone, come back. Reported: live tall blue-eyed. They told us not to go anymore! The emperor was intelligent and did not go to Siberia anymore !!!
            So you yourself think, essentially sparsely populated places, no population! And China in due time was puppeted! Dark story.
            Humor itself comes down to Aryam. To Hyperborea !!!
            1. Igarr
              Igarr 16 February 2013 20: 09
              +2
              Glad. Very glad, Vladimir.
              I’ve been repeating it for a year ... at the forum .... the whole territory of Russia (USSR) - since ancient times the existing state.
              The periods are different ... were. Separatism is not asleep.
              ..
              ".. They told us not to come to us any more! The emperor was teachable .." - I liked the interpretation very much.
              Quite reminded - ".. shot .."
              ...
              Looks like the Vikings, too ... were trying ... to come to us.
              1. Cynic
                Cynic 16 February 2013 21: 11
                +1
                Quote: Igarr
                Glad. Very glad

                Mutually.
                That's just
                Quote: Igarr
                territory of Russia (USSR) - since ancient times the existing state.
                The periods are different ... were. Separatism is not asleep.

                At one time, I was struck by the expression Terra incognita
                So, for me it is fully applicable to history! And to the history of Russia!
                Does Russia essentially mean a state on the Eurasian continent or is it still farther north?
                1. Igarr
                  Igarr 16 February 2013 22: 08
                  +1
                  As if..
                  "..implies a state on the Eurasian continent or is it even further north .. "
                  unfortunately .... materials of archaeological research on Spitsbergen and Franz Josef Land are not freely available.
                  More precisely, there is .... http: //www.polaruni.ru/assets/files/files/1_77.pdf..... but, but, but .... how many researchers - and the results? Zero?
                  We have safely ... "buried" Novaya Zemlya. It must have been scary.
                  What they dug up on Kola - already managed to create ... the atmosphere around. With this one well ... pterodactyls fly out.
                  ..
                  By the way, just now ... gurgled.
                  1908 - Tunguska meteorite.
                  1947 - Sikhote-Alinsky.
                  2013 - Chelyabinsk. And in the interval was another. It is necessary to search in the materials of the forum, yesterday it slipped through the discussions.
                  This .. UFO in the Far East .... 4-5 years ago, in my opinion ... Serebryany Bor, chtoli? I don’t remember.
                  In other countries where?
                  What is it, in Russia - smeared with honey?
                  1. Cynic
                    Cynic 16 February 2013 22: 20
                    +2
                    Quote: Igarr
                    By the way, just now ... gurgled.
                    1908 - ...

                    It was already in the press.
                    The same stream, period 33 years.
                    Yes, I missed the 80th, our identity crashed!
                  2. Cynic
                    Cynic 17 February 2013 16: 53
                    +1
                    Quote: Igarr
                    In other countries where?

                    Simultaneously with Chelyabinsk Cuba !!!
                  3. NOBODY EXCEPT US
                    NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 February 2013 23: 28
                    0
                    Although, if you believe Amerov’s films, they should fall there, but for some reason it falls with us .....
                2. Setrac
                  Setrac 16 February 2013 23: 26
                  0
                  Under Russia, in addition to the current territories, it is necessary to understand Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Manchuria and a significant part of North America (approximately diagonally from California to Greenland). These are territories lost to the Romanov rule.
                  1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
                    NOBODY EXCEPT US 17 February 2013 23: 30
                    +1
                    Somehow you have strained the story, in my opinion ...
          2. DeerIvanovich
            DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 01: 23
            +1
            Japan from the east, for example, did not even know about Hokkaido at that time, and the Ainu lived there - surprisingly similar to the Slalan, as our researchers later wrote, though Lazare, even pioneers, even traders. so there they were waiting for a bummer
      2. Neringa285
        Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 10
        -2
        Continue to be proud !!! The article is pseudoscientific. The comments of some members of the forum, alas. Are not pleasing .. they are little acquainted with history, apparently. Everything was .. and France was robbed, and England and the French king gave his daughter to Viking Rollo!
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 17 February 2013 16: 56
          +2
          Quote: Neringa285
          Keep proud !!

          Even Hyperborea will be proud!
          There is something, and you?
          1. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 19: 45
            -1
            Why not be proud of your own name? And than the Scandinavian roots of the name are worse than. say, Turkic? Be proud of anything, but it is advisable to know the history of your neighbors, especially since these are not the most peaceful neighbors, despite their neutral status, which has not been observed for a long time. everyone knows that the most arrogant pilots are the Swedes on the Orions ...
        2. Neringa285
          Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 31
          0
          Let them put cons, and you are proud! You have an ancient princely name! Such names impose an imprint on fate, maybe you will become a great person, and we will be proud that once like this. Simply, they corresponded with you on the forum!)))
      3. cherkas.oe
        cherkas.oe 16 February 2013 23: 24
        +1
        Quote: Igarr
        Well, lan, I’ll go get a stack of sivuhi, smell it with onuchs ... yes to the stove.
        Dream.....
        About the great past of Russia, which is yet to be.

        That's right, because tomorrow, SUNDAY, not Monday. HOORAY! Glory to Russia.
      4. Kaa
        Kaa 17 February 2013 03: 08
        +4
        Quote: Igarr
        all the buzz broken off.

        Quote: Igarr
        Nothing, okazza was not! It's a shame .... as much as teeth. I thought ... Viking, horseradish - Russian, it turns out.
        ...
        No one can be trusted, no one. All nae.

        "You can't trust anyone ... not even yourself. I can!"
        In general, in the history of easy life no one promised - A la guerre comme à la guerre!
        With onions be careful, it can carry drinks
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 17 February 2013 20: 53
          +1
          Spruce ....
          how to live are you late latellllllllllllll.
          with his advice ...
          if only it wasn't fat .. "in Livonian" ... fig would have moved away ...
          Thank you, Serpent .... there is at least one soul ....
          supporttttttttttttt ...
          heattttttttttt .....
          Oscaritttttttt ...
          oberbettt ...
          Well, clean ... Russian is so ... like.
    20. GOLUBENKO
      GOLUBENKO 16 February 2013 19: 15
      +1
      Quote: datur

      GOLUBENKO, I personally- GERMAN OF RUSSIAN-origin and so what?

      Well, and I personally KAZAK SIBIRSKY- the ancestors of the Kuban and Cossacks, respectively, so what? repeat
      I'm sorry, what? laughing
      1. stalker
        stalker 16 February 2013 19: 22
        +2
        Accordingly, you are a Turk
    21. s1н7т
      s1н7т 16 February 2013 19: 21
      0
      That the dragrakars did not build in Sweden is news to me, however. I thought they were more advanced. The rest, in principle, is already known.
      1. Neringa285
        Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 15
        -4
        Built ... There is absolutely nothing to believe in this article.
        1. Neringa285
          Neringa285 17 February 2013 19: 42
          -1
          Drakkar (Norwegian Drakkar, from the Old Norse Drage - “dragon” and Kar - “ship” ... Havhingsten fra Glendalough), a 30-meter warship, is almost an exact copy of the ship “Skuldelev II”, built in 1042 in Sweden.
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 17 February 2013 20: 20
            +2
            More monks ....
            .................................. I emphasize ...
            .................................................. ...... M ONAX AND .....
            medieval Europe .... have already given birth to such a well-known and unquestioned by anyone ... PRINCIPLES ...
            Razor .. (principle) ... Occam ... is called ...
            ...
            So .. according to this PRINTSYPU ... Drakkar - it is much easier to do from the word - FIGHT ...
            Someone will say - NO ..?
            ... Guessed ... what needs to be proved ... by the principle of non-resistance to MEANING ... words?
            ..
            And all things ...
            ...
            ...
            I fully admit that the Turkic-speaking ... does not touch anything in his soul ... he would only. - Ur-ur ... hr-hrh-hre ... dr-dr-dr ....
            well, like this...
            learn ... not just pronounce words ... but .. LIVE ... WORD ..
            you look, and ... who else .... start to call names - ... Fomenko-21 ....
            1. Igarr
              Igarr 17 February 2013 20: 41
              +1
              Then I thought ... too difficult to cheat ..
              The ending is er, ...- er ... in the Turkic yachts ... clearly correspond to the creator, the builder.
              To the sculptor.
              So ... Draco Sculptor .... DracoCreator ... - well, evaluate it yourself.
              That's it ... Tour He - EP - DAL ... such a sucker was ... well, such ... right ...
              The whole world traveled ..
              And he returned to Turkmenistan ...
              Miracles.
              1. Kaa
                Kaa 17 February 2013 21: 28
                +2
                Quote: Igarr
                Miracles.

                No, the pure science of anthroponymics is the science of names. "The mysterious, inexplicable power of names over the fate of a person was noticed by the ancients. In Russia, for example, until the seventeenth century, parents kept the name given to the child at baptism in secret, trying to deceive evil spirits. In Azerbaijan and Turkey, the child was given two names - one of them was false, the second was real, - all in the same hope as the Russians have, the hope of deceiving unkind spirits. Some peoples give children deliberately bad names - Son of a Whore, Dog's Tail, etc. - repelling this evil spirits Historians and ethnographers find the custom of hiding their names among almost all peoples of the world.The ancients were sure, writes the candidate of historical sciences Alexander Gorbovsky, that the fate of a person, a city and even a state is predetermined by his name.In his opinion, today's custom of change is also associated with this idea Like the ancients, it also presupposes a change in fate. This is the meaning of the fact that, entering into marriage, a woman takes a new name (surname) of her husband. ter, composing a pseudonym for himself; changing his name, taking tonsure or church orders, joining a secret society. According to the newspaper "Abroad" (No. 39, 1986), psychiatrists from the United States conducted a study and found that people with funny and strange names are four times more likely than others to be predisposed to all kinds of mental complexes, and a child with a name that causes ridicule, from childhood he has been in a defensive position, he is forced to fight for a normal attitude towards himself, which forms certain traits of his character. ". http://arhivfamiliy.narod.ru/character.html
                Well, with a prayer, "let's say our anthroponymous things. Tur is something like a bull - he is a bull, and in Scandinavia he is a bull, Heyer - well, this is due to the peculiarities of the pronunciation of one important male subject in the Baltic performance - like sprooota - here - heeeer - everything is clear; well and the fact that an unselfish person gave, and did not quit, is also understandable.Total, according to science, Bull X..R gave to everyone - the famous Thor Heyerdahl gave birth to the theory, and what to do with entity x..rom knows him. "Everyone is delusional to the best of his ability." drinksPS Is it possible for children to give such names to surnames - well, Tor Umdal would have been much more useful, then, look what useful things would have been compiled, and x..p from a bull - what does he need to work as a seedling on a farm? belay
                1. Neringa285
                  Neringa285 17 February 2013 22: 01
                  0
                  Tour - Russified pronunciation is the name of the god of thunder
                  1. heathen
                    heathen 18 February 2013 12: 19
                    0
                    Tour (Latin: Bos primigenius) is an extinct species of a huge wild bull that lived in temperate climates from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean in the 17th century. at one time was one of the hypostases of the Slavic god Veles.
    22. Cpa
      Cpa 16 February 2013 19: 33
      10
      The Vikings called the raiders robbing the British Isles. The Celts and Picts called them winged hats living on an ice island. So the Swedes and Norwegians with Gali horns in flight. The Nibelung saga (German) confirms the warlikeness of the ancient Icelanders, no one dared to fight them. they could not be, because nothing to trade.
      But the distant campaigns of the Swedish kungs took place, rather mercenary.
      At the end of the 20 century, Thur Heyrdal conducted many historical studies of the Black Sea region and put forward the theory of the Asian origin of the Scandinavian peoples and his pantheon of gods. So he believed that the Scandinavians are a cross between the mythical peoples Ases (immigrants from Central Asia) and Vanov (a cross between Scythians and Slavs living in the steppes Azov region), with the only proviso that now the blood of the Swedes is diluted with Ugrians, and the Norwegians with Goths.
      Recent excavations in Turkmenistan have partially confirmed the theory by discovering a temple with a pantheon of Scandinavian gods.
      1. Neringa285
        Neringa285 16 February 2013 20: 14
        -1
        Absolutely! Thanks, wonderful comment.
        1. Cpa
          Cpa 16 February 2013 20: 31
          +2
          Thank you for your support! hi I see you in the subject! smile
          1. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 20: 43
            +1
            Once, a long time ago, in the mid-80s, I did an analytical review of the NATO Jutland group and I was interested in everything related to German-Scandinavian history. I read a lot and put together a large library dedicated to German-Scandinavian mythology, culture and military affairs.
    23. washi
      washi 16 February 2013 20: 22
      +1
      I recommend: http: //dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enc_colier/245/LITHUANIA
      There is Latvia, Estonia and the rest of the republic. Who is aged - I recommend a doctor immediately call
    24. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 16 February 2013 20: 42
      +5
      People settled in the harsh fjords of the cruel sea. There was nothing for the sissies to do there ... however, there was simply nothing for honest people either. These people came there because next to them no one wanted to endure them, the neighborhood of murderers, thieves and robbers is very burdensome. They adapted to catch fish in that sea, but they did not bother much with this. Not for that thieves' freedom ... what did they do there?
      They built ships. And then on those ships they went to rob, because across the sea from them lay a fertile island, with a mild climate, hardworking, peaceful inhabitants ... a bandit paradise. England slowly, as it can be seen under the influence of centuries of plunder and violence, and itself gradually became a bandit-on-bandit state. So the Normans plundered her as long as they could. No, they certainly did not fight. The bandit is no warrior, "die you today and I tomorrow" does not really fit like a battle cry. They rolled into the village, plundered everything they could lift, took peaceful, unarmed people into slavery. Their main "martial art" is to escape before the senor's soldiers gallop up. They killed, mocked, dirty tricks of course. That's all the romance ...
    25. skychnii
      skychnii 16 February 2013 20: 48
      +1
      I wonder why it is every bastard wants to be magnified by the leaning of others.
      1. wolk71
        wolk71 16 February 2013 21: 37
        +2
        That's why she is a bastard, to seem taller and better than others, many have a desire, but little help. So they are trying all sorts of scum methods to rise. What is good in Europe? Colonization of other nations, homosexuality, and even children from families are being taken away. Not a damn thing.
      2. Cynic
        Cynic 16 February 2013 21: 37
        +2
        Quote: skychnii
        why is it that every bastard wants to be magnified by bending others

        But because you bastard!
        In order to be elevated you need to make an effort! Well, at least get up! But it’s easier to drop the passing one and look from above at the fallen one!
        A very crude analogy. but who will challenge the truth!
    26. Submariner
      Submariner 16 February 2013 23: 17
      +5
      I read ... I laughed ... What I saw with my own eyes. 1. The island of Gotland (Viking settlement). 2. War Museum, where this "man" is sitting. 3. And perhaps most importantly, communication with the Swedes. Yes, most of them do not remember about the origin. But phantom fears of Russia probably live in them at the genetic level. The author was smoking something wrong ...
    27. Setrac
      Setrac 16 February 2013 23: 29
      +4
      There is such a scientific fact - Scandinavia rises, from a geological point of view very quickly, during the time of the Vikings and the Vikings it (Sweden) simply did not exist, the sea was there.
    28. rapira99
      rapira99 16 February 2013 23: 51
      +3
      Reading various statements about the origin of the Ruriks and the like, people forget some simple things. I do not go into historical reasoning, but look at the question from the layman - an ordinary resident of that time. NOBODY, in those old days, would have allowed to rule the STRANGE. Everything was tied to blood. And if, Rurik, or someone else, would not be related to the local princely family, who would accept him. Even if a few boyars, or anyone else, in a quiet circle came up with such a thing, the people in those days were simple - either spears or at night they would be cut. And do not look at the titles. read Solovyov, or someone else, about the attitude of ordinary people to such drinking. I really liked the people of Kiev in relation to the Poles, despite the fact that they were relatives. In any country in the world, especially then, it was almost impossible to come from outside and EDIT. I don’t remember where - the description about the Moscow boyars that before the fifteenth century there were interesting stories: having met on the street an unfamiliar but aristocratic one, they spent hours finding out who, to whom and in which knee was a relative. And they didn’t disperse until they found out.
      We must look for the grave of Rurik, and make genetics ... And the rest - verbiage ..
      1. Nicotine 7
        Nicotine 7 17 February 2013 00: 16
        +2
        That’s the whole trick: we are so insignificant that we ourselves aren’t capable of anything. This is the official version of our scientists. So, what a hell for us .... How the rest ... but this is a lie! And worst of all, that many compatriots agree with this x ...
        1. Tverichanka
          Tverichanka 17 February 2013 01: 45
          +4
          Alas, a compatriot doesn’t mean a like-minded person. In modern times, it’s oh, how noticeable. If someone likes to think that everything is borrowed in Russia, well, let it be considered. Nobody will convince anyone of anything. But somehow I would not want to think that your parents are scourges from the garbage .... So with the Motherland ...
      2. Egoza
        Egoza 17 February 2013 11: 05
        0
        Quote: rapira99
        We must look for the grave of Rurik, and make genetics ... And the rest - verbiage ..

        So where to look? Look, it turned out that in the tomb of Yaroslav the Wise, which is in the St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, there is no Yaroslav, and there are "outsiders". And in general, infa passed that he, poor, showed up somewhere in the USA! Could it have been sold too? I wonder why? To amend the budget, or so that none of the great Russian princes and the spirit was not? am
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 17 February 2013 17: 44
          +3
          The Great Russian Prince is not a question of blood. This is a question of the Spirit, but they cannot take the Spirit from us, not according to Juan Sombrero. We will still have Princes.
          1. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 19: 55
            -1
            The most sensible thought is yours. Indeed ... with us, most of the rulers were not Russian by blood ..
        2. Neringa285
          Neringa285 17 February 2013 19: 51
          -1
          Read Vasiliev .. Rurik was burned at the stake, as it should be tribal leader ...
      3. krisostomus
        krisostomus 17 February 2013 13: 59
        +3
        In general, to put it mildly, this was not entirely true, if not to say not at all. In those days, "nobility" was defined by belonging "to foreign countries" - Rurikovich, Gedeminovich and others. And somehow it never happened that someone considered himself to be the descendants of Kiy, Schek or Khorev or the Gostomyslovichs.
        The election of Romanov to the throne is precisely the most vivid example of the election of an OUTSIDER with a dark origin to the Prime Minister, and this at a time when there was a heap of Rurikovich and Gediminovich. That is, the noble boyars were guided not so much by "related" interests, but by political ones, that is, by the "equidistance" of the seedy boyar clan of the Romanovs from the more noble ones.
        As for Novgorod, this is generally a special article and the prince never played the main role there and could easily get a kick in the ass, which happened more than once. The prince played there rather the role of a hired military leader and his military "talents" were the main thing.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 17 February 2013 18: 51
          +2
          Quote: krisostomus
          The election of Romanov to the throne - this is precisely the most obvious example of the election of the PRIOR as an EXTERNAL with a very dark origin

          Nobody elected the Romanovs! At first there was a multi-year intervention, like the intervention of the beginning of the 20th century in Russia, or something like it was just a few years ago in Libya, or now in Syria. And then the Romanovs took power by military means.
          1. Neringa285
            Neringa285 17 February 2013 19: 57
            0
            Romanov was elected to the kingdom in 1613 in Kostroma ... it was Mikhail Romanov.
    29. RoTTor
      RoTTor 17 February 2013 01: 22
      -1
      Clear and convincing. Everyman’s consciousness is sheer myths. Important - which ones.
    30. R1a1
      R1a1 17 February 2013 01: 40
      0
      At first glance, off topic. But if you think about it, even as a topic. Vikings, shmikings. Lord Boyars have long and tenderly taken care of us. Can we appreciate it? Watch the video. This topic is surely not to be noticed, or hushed up, or laughed at. But the facts remain facts. A meteorite over Chelyabinsk seems to have been knocked down and did it for all UFO indicators or ...) [media = http: //youtu.be/WaQIPBqoQ-Q]
    31. R1a1
      R1a1 17 February 2013 01: 43
      0
      At first glance, off topic. But if you think about it, even as a topic. Vikings, shmikings. Lord Boyars have long and tenderly taken care of us. Can we appreciate it? Watch the video. This topic is surely not to be noticed, or hushed up, or laughed at. But the facts remain facts. A meteorite over Chelyabinsk seems to have been knocked down and did it for all UFO indicators or ...) [media = http: //youtu.be/WaQIPBqoQ-Q]
    32. R1a1
      R1a1 17 February 2013 01: 45
      +3
      At first glance, off topic. But if you think about it, even as a topic. Vikings, shmikings. Lord Boyars have long and tenderly taken care of us. Can we appreciate it? Watch the video. This topic is surely not to be noticed, or hushed up, or laughed at. But the facts remain facts. The meteorite over Chelyabinsk seems to have been knocked down and did it for all UFO indicators or ...)

      http://youtu.be/WaQIPBqoQ-Q
      1. Nicotine 7
        Nicotine 7 17 February 2013 02: 34
        +1
        At a speed of 30 km in sek, it’s not easy to shoot. Well done!
      2. DeerIvanovich
        DeerIvanovich 17 February 2013 09: 55
        0
        yes it looks very much like that
    33. MRomanovich
      MRomanovich 17 February 2013 04: 24
      +6
      Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
      In vain, my dear, are you laughing .... Remember Timur? The only one who defeated the Mongols at that time .......... who was by nationality? All over uzbek

      Timur did not seem to be an Uzbek, during his lifetime he did not favor the Uzbeks, and their descendants - modern Uzbeks, make him their hero.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 17 February 2013 09: 17
        +2
        Hi Michael
        Very few people read "Temur's Code".
        And if he did, he hardly paid special attention to one chapter from there.
        And if he did, he didn’t tell anyone about it.
        And he did it right.
        Here and on lesser occasions, they "clatter with daggers" ..
    34. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs 17 February 2013 08: 18
      +1
      The question of the Varangians is already quite confused. I want to confuse it even more, and I propose two versions at once.
      1. In the first mentions in the Chronicle it was written not "Varangian", but "Varyazi". Therefore, the following logic:
      Today: Friend - Enemy
      Yesterday: Friendship - Enemy (Friendship - Enmity)
      The day before yesterday: Druze - Vraze (Friends),
      Including Druze - At once
      in the number of Friends - Vrazi - Varyazi (enemy-vorog).
      In addition, from Dahl's dictionary: "to enmity (Novg.) - to be naughty, to fool, to bless, to indulge, to be dirty"
      That is, the Varangians are people of the local batch, the forerunner of ushkuynikov.
      2. In the Novgorod Chronicle there is a place "deliberate men, like a byahu excised a Varangian prince."
      Linguists, studying the dialects of the Russians living in northern Russia, noted the following word: "varga (varga) is a quilted winter mitten.
      That is, "Varangian" is a quilted armor that protects against arrows. "Varangians" are warriors in quilted armor (chain mail was too expensive).
    35. 12061973
      12061973 17 February 2013 08: 47
      -2
      I once heard that real Vikings do not get sick with AIDS, whether it’s interesting or not, as for the article, Harry Harrison’s story "fantastic saga" is more informative and of course more interesting.
    36. varyag
      varyag 17 February 2013 09: 34
      +5
      Sorry One!

      I'm in Caesar’s service
      Steregu Romay banner
      Although I am devoted only to friendship -
      Old chopped Varangian.

      Everything went through the elements
      But I swear by Odin!
      With the Byzantine Gold Plate
      I'll be back someday!

      In the helmet of a wolf's grin
      I will inhale the harsh Nord.
      Cast a shadow on the rocks
      Knorr will enter a familiar fjord.

      And hit the blizzard
      As an Arab hit with an arrow,
      In my Russian chain mail
      What I bought in Kiev.

      My honor, more precious than gold
      My sword, Caesar's crown -
      On hem from damask
      I was forged by his blacksmith.

      He looked sternly into his eyes
      I felt guilty!
      He said the Slavic word -
      "Warrior, pay to Perun!"

      And he added quietly -
      "My daughter is a healer of wounds" -
      In light braids, what a famously
      I got kvass jugs.

      And on the side of the oath, One!
      Let your revenge come.
      For some reason I became calm,
      Hearing eunuchs flattery us.

      May it remain sad
      Thirst for gold daredevil.
      I’m safer with Russian steel,
      Yes, and with the daughter of a blacksmith!
    37. Iraclius
      Iraclius 17 February 2013 10: 23
      +5
      I recommend watching the magnificent Valhalla movie. It is well shown and without embellishment, who was the early medieval population of Scandinavia, the baptismal era. The battles are set extremely cruelly and succinctly - no spectacular, but not effective swinging swords. good
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 17 February 2013 13: 07
        0
        Well, Andrey .. hi.
        But what about the polites ... to jump, to wave hats?
        Bams, booms .. the skull is split, the tendon is cropped.
        ...
        Hee hee ... to the question of fighting methods and duration ... starting from antiquity ...
        You can, of course, stand in line ... monolithic ... current to fight then - it will not work.
        Stupidly poke a piece of iron ... somewhere ..
        ...
        Oh, little ... little we read Hans Delbrück.
        To read his "Persian Wars ....." - so the mythological, fantasy component .. will disappear from your eyes.
        "... Fomenko of the 19th century ..." - ... and now they think - HE is right ..! not Herodotus.
        1. Iraclius
          Iraclius 17 February 2013 13: 37
          +3
          Greetings Igor! hi
          History is a wonderful thing! Especially if it is taught by smart, competent people, with independent thinking.
          I was lucky - I had such teachers. Who were not lazy to take us, schoolchildren, to museums, drove to archaeological sites, agreed on our participation in the work of historical reconstruction clubs.
          That is why the idea of ​​history as exclusively book and humanitarian science vanished very early in my class in the sixth, when after school we, together with the teacher, tried to build a small ballista.
          He chuckled good-naturedly, but helped us. The machine, of course, did not work as we imagined. It made me and my friends dig through a bunch of literature (the Internet wasn’t there yet), make calculations, consulted with a physics teacher, brought it to a more or less working condition ... In short, we learned with our aching hands tired of knuckles, calluses, calluses the most important thing is that historical realities are checked not by reading a heap of literature, but by their experience and experiment.
          We were engaged in historical fencing. Not, of course, one can argue and prove that the ancestors were more enduring and stronger than us. And they studied military affairs from the cradle. But any organism has purely biological limitations. And these limitations prove the impossibility of waving many hours with cold steel weapons in steel armor. A person simply faints from heat stroke.
          The point of training was to be quick. economically and reliably kill the enemy before he did. The Viking robbers knew this maxim like no other.
          Now about the Vikings - what kind of mass armies can we talk about if the scarce land there is simply not able to feed so many people who have learned the three-field not so long ago!
          Small pirate, robber raids - yes. But there can be no talk of any full-fledged ancestors of modern Scandinavians from those pirates. This is a small and dead end genealogical branch in a long and chaotic European history.
      2. biglow
        biglow 17 February 2013 17: 03
        0
        Quote: Iraclius
        Valhalla

        really good movie
    38. Iraclius
      Iraclius 17 February 2013 11: 18
      +2
      Yes, I forgot to add. There are no chain mail, horned helmets in the film. There are Klevets, battle axes. This is probably why the film has collected very little at the box office - it does not fit into the Hollywood canons. lol There are rooks that were a single type of ship in medieval Northern Europe, including the Baltic Slavs, Novgorodians.
      Similarly, in Antiquity, the single type of warships in the Mediterranean were rowing ships, the peak of development of which was the trireme, under different names known to all coastal peoples of the Hellenistic period, who had access from the construction forest.

      ***
      Gothic is genetically truly closer to modern Swedish than to German. But this is rather a feature of the development of the Swedish language, because in its structure it is more archaic and has fewer borrowings.
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 17 February 2013 13: 44
        0
        No, Andrey ...
        and it begs ... the canonical - ".. With such happiness and freedom? .."
        Come on here ... we’ll openly approach the issue .. weapons. Cold.
        Ax, slander, sword ... what is what? And what can be done? And what are the labor costs for the manufacture of one unit .. equipment? Whether labor, bloodshed ...
        Ax you can chop ... wood, meat there, skulls, armor. You can load cabbage with an ax to make kvass. An ax can just be given on the forehead. An ax, as they say, was even shaved in Russia. The blade is shorter.
        What's worth making an ax? Well, he took a block, brought it to a wedge, made a "dovetail" at the end, circled with this "tail" - the handle. ALL. Sharpened ...
        Klevets. The chisel is ordinary. Chisel. A very useful tool in the work of ... a carpenter, a carpenter ... a mason-smith - only there will already be a chisel. Easily and simply inflicts wounds incompatible with life. Get only. Desirable on the skull.
        How to do? Easier than an ax. Because they hold a chisel in their hands.
        The only problem is how to mount ... as a weapon?
        Sword. Oooh. Story poets, minstrels, writers .... in short, those who have nothing to do. Escalibur, Durandal, Al-Zou-Fakr, Sword-Kladenets ....
        How to do? A long bar .... forgive .. do not burn, do not thin, do not thicken, remove curvature, remove dolly .... harden.
        What if he leads? What if ... doesn’t harden. What is the norm for ordinary steel?
        The sword is a special skill of those years. The swords were ... exclusive weapons.
        ..
        What is interesting .... what topic do not take it ... well, it does not roll ... from a modern point of view.
        People were ... mundane, frail, to eat .. first of all. To have sex.
        Where there ... to breakthroughs in technology?
        They were taken ... in monasteries.
        So it goes.
        ..
        All this to the point ... that the comments are very interesting. Yours ... with your permission.
        1. heathen
          heathen 18 February 2013 16: 26
          0
          What are such breakthroughs in technology in monasteries? O_o
          Before the Renaissance, the Christian world generally had no prerequisites for technological breakthroughs. Unless shipbuilders, maybe.
    39. bazillius
      bazillius 17 February 2013 13: 47
      0
      A timely article, especially for skinheads., The truth is something else to read, but they usually do not like this.
    40. homosum20
      homosum20 17 February 2013 15: 33
      +5
      And in general - Sweden is the homeland of elephants. But these little ones, home. What about the phrase "The Hyperborean sage Abaris from the legend mentioned by Herodotus is a distorted Ewart or Iwart, etc." Calling ivert (evert) abaris is not the same thing? Wait, historians are arguing about the Brothers of Rurik Sineus and Truvor: "Recently, historians have come to the conclusion that Rurik had no brothers, and Sineus and Truvor appeared due to an incorrect translation of the words" sine us "- relatives and" tru voring " - vigilantes ".
      Moreover, please, all conclusions are based on "that the translation was made from a lost, but existing document."
      Moreover, the objections are of a character that clarifies everything and cardinal: “There was no lost document, the agreement (I think between Rurik and his officers on the one hand and the leaders of local Rus, maybe some of the tribal leaders of Chudi, Krivichi, Slovenia, on the other) concluded an oral one. "
      Yeah. And now, apparently, the witnesses to this oral agreement are arguing.
      But that's not all: "Natalia Dubrovskaya. - There is a scientific version, which has the right to exist, like everyone else, that the Novgorod mayor Gostomysl had all his sons killed in battle, and only daughters remained. And according to legend, he I had a dream that a tree grows out of the womb of the middle daughter Umila. The Magi interpreted the dream so that he should transfer power to her descendants. The middle daughter was married to Prince Godlav of Jutland. Most likely, it was the prince of the Polab Slavs. Their children were Rurik, Sineus. and Truvor. That is, they are directly related to the Novgorod dynasty. In any case, according to one version, the princes are Slavs by their mother. Among the supporters of the so-called Norman theory, it is generally accepted that there was no statehood in Russia, the Varangians came and created for us the Old Russian But the general system of social development did not contribute to this, because the Varangians were still at the stage of military democracy. ty. They were called not because they were Varangians, but because they were directly related to the Russian princely families. "
      Now prove that Sweden is not the birthplace of elephants. And I will give evidence of contemporaries and eyewitnesses. Oral.
      1. Cynic
        Cynic 17 February 2013 17: 18
        +1
        Quote: homosum20
        And I will give evidence of contemporaries and eyewitnesses.

        Queen of Evidence - Confession
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 17 February 2013 21: 45
          0
          Killed ... nafik ...
          There was one such ... word of mouth ... said - you .. who? Efsimany? .. Hrn to you ... Will you be Peter .. Stone, then ... in my opinion ... or maybe in Greek ... or maybe ... in Swedish .. in the 19th century. .. not the point.
          And here it is on you .. Petro .. I’ll build ... more precisely, you will build ... how do you not know? .. doesn’t shake me ... build, I said ... I’m not Zheglov for you, or what?
          .
          You can’t be so free ... with HYSTERICAL texts ...
          ..
          Of course, of course ... Sweden is the birthplace of elephants ..
          And .. Russia - Alma Mater - Mamontov.
          In the meslot.
    41. Larus
      Larus 17 February 2013 18: 54
      +1
      Who cares, he can find a documentary film on the history of M. Zadornov on the network
    42. sdf23wesdgg
      sdf23wesdgg 17 February 2013 19: 32
      0
      Imagine, it turns out that our authorities have complete information about each of us. And now she has appeared on the Internet http://trunc.it/m8pnt Very surprised and scared,
      my correspondence, addresses, phone numbers, even found my nude photo, I can’t even imagine from where. The good news is that the data can be deleted from the site, of course, I used it and I advise everyone not to hesitate
    43. Kolya
      Kolya 17 February 2013 22: 03
      +2
      Civilized descendants of the Vikings. Understanding that the genes of those Vikings as an infection infected the whole of Western Europe and even touched the Slavs of Kievan Rus - it becomes disgusting. Here they are the roots of the hatred of all living things.
    44. fero
      fero 19 February 2013 16: 52
      +1
      In the annals the interpreters-interpreters are not mentioned anywhere, it is interesting how the Varangians-Scandinavians ruled the Slavs without knowing the language? ... For me dk, the Varangians are the name of the estate, and not the people.