The program An-148: when slowly harness ...

35
The program An-148: when slowly harness ...


The An-148 passenger aircraft began operation in June, 2009, first in Ukraine and six months later in Russia. But three years later, only 14 aircraft were in operation (as of autumn 2012 - P.2): six aircraft are part of Rossiya Airlines, two are from Polet, and three more An-148 are registered in Ukrainian airline "International Airlines of Ukraine".

Three more aircraft must be transferred to the Russian airline Angara (two aircraft were transferred to 2012 - P.2), which ordered five aircraft and placed an option for five more vehicles.

The An-148 average monthly flight time on Russia is 300 hours, which is a pretty good indicator for a new regional aircraft. In early September, the company transported the million-passenger to the An-148, although a month earlier, the new owner of the company Rossiya, Aeroflot, announced that it would not choose the previously concluded option for nine An-148.

The company Polet, which puts the An-148 on charter flights, also stopped new purchases after receiving only two out of ten ordered aircraft. The first foreign customer, the Myanmar Ministry of Defense, also canceled the contract for the purchase of An-148 after the crash of the first aircraft during a test flight in March of 2011.

Problems

The An-148 program lacks orders, currently there are only six ordered aircraft: two each for the Angara, the Presidential Aviation Squadron and the Ministry of Emergency Situations. Three more aircraft (and 12 as an option) must be delivered to customers in Latin America. In July, the Russian leasing company IFC signed a contract with Panama South American Leasing for three An-158 (intended for Cubana de Aviacion), as well as an option for seven An-148 and five additional An-158.

Execution of orders associated with difficulties. The first production aircraft were produced at Svyatoshyn (Antonov serial production plant, Kiev), but in order to speed up deliveries for the Russian market, licensed production was organized at the Voronezh Aircraft Building Joint-Stock Company.

The production plans for the An-148 are in complete disarray. In September, the author visited the final assembly shop of the Antonov company in Svyatoshyn, in which there were only three An-148 and two An-158. They employed no more than a dozen workers.

According to the company’s president, Antonov Dmitry Kiva, the main problem hindering the production of An-148 is lack of funds. The company needs 300 million dollars to launch serial production of the series in 20-25 aircraft.

But Antonov has difficulties in obtaining loans, as the company is state-owned. Kiva expects that the situation may change due to the creation of a joint venture with Russia. The joint venture will be responsible for implementing the An-148 production program, and obtaining loans will become an easier task.

Fighting "Superjet"

The unhappy fate of the regional An-148 aircraft was due to the simultaneous launch of another Russian project, the Sukhoi Superjet 100. Some modifications of these aircraft are direct competitors. The basic version of the An-148-100 is designed for 80 seats and is not a direct equivalent of the 98-local Superjet, unlike the 99-local An-158. The proposed modification Antonov Business Jet also has a competitor to the development of the company “Sukhoi” - the project SBJ, Sukhoi Business Jet.

KLA head Mikhail Poghosyan, who is also the main one in the Superjet project, recently announced that the basic version of the An-148 will remain in the KLA order portfolio, taking the place of an unrealized shortened version of the Superjet under the index 100-75. However, an extended version of the An-158 will not be produced in Russia, because of the difficulties in entering the Russian market of commercial aviation.

Original publication: Slow Developer Air International, December 2012 - Piotr Butowski
Translation by Andrei Frolov
35 comments
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  1. +2
    3 February 2013 08: 23
    Apparently, the happy planes of our assembly will not appear on the horizon in the near future. It is good that the small-scale production of military aircraft has not died
    1. S_mirnov
      +8
      3 February 2013 14: 13
      The logical collapse of the industry under horseradish management.
  2. +14
    3 February 2013 08: 43
    IMHO, now objectively to say and like this: "When slowly harnessed .... the horse can have time to become outdated ..."
  3. zhvn
    +4
    3 February 2013 08: 50
    It's a shame what else to say.
  4. +3
    3 February 2013 08: 51
    Well, where is the government? Probably in dreams, I probably need an effective red-haired manager again.
    1. VAF
      VAF
      +11
      3 February 2013 10: 25
      Quote: valokordin
      Well, where is the government?


      Good morning everyone! hi

      And the government is waiting. what the Great and Almighty will say. and he says what they "hang on his ears" wassat
      Misha said - "... we did it digitally" and ... "it rushed .... she went over bumps", but what is in "digital", "who is in digital" ... this is not the point request



      So dear ... recourse

      The article clearly and clearly said: ...."The unfortunate fate of the An-148 regional aircraft was due to the simultaneous launch of another Russian project, the Sukhoi Superjet 100, into production. Some modifications of these aircraft are direct competitors."

      So all further conversations .. this is a waste of time .. alas request

      Only Super-Duper - .. "ahead of the rest" wassat

      1. +10
        3 February 2013 10: 56
        Good day, Sergey! You're right. You are damn right in your comment ...
        We can safely say that from every such scrape that happens in the domestic aircraft industry, the ears of the "effective manager" Misha Poghosyan stick out, who does not know where to attach his Super-Jet-100 that nobody needs ...
        I think that the rehearsals that began with the new Tu-214R also started not without the participation of Poghosyan ...
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +6
          3 February 2013 11: 49
          Quote: Chicot 1
          I think that the rehearsals that began with the new Tu-214R also started not without the participation of Poghosyan ...


          Vasily, completely +! I already .. "walked" in the article on the Tu-214R just about this wassat
          1. +7
            3 February 2013 13: 11
            How now, after all this, to call Poghosyan so that he would not be offended and would not receive warnings from the site ?!
        2. Avenger711
          -1
          3 February 2013 13: 05
          You pulled up already. SSJ already has about 150 orders in solid contracts.
          1. stranik72
            +4
            3 February 2013 13: 26
            Т
            Quote: Avenger711
            You pulled up already. SSJ already has about 150 orders in solid contracts.

            That is, read so, the paper on which they (the contracts) are signed so hard that it will even wipe if something is impossible.
            1. Avenger711
              -1
              3 February 2013 16: 09
              Nothing to say in the case?
              1. FID
                +2
                4 February 2013 07: 21
                The main operator of the super - Aeroflot - stopped the operation of the Sukhoi Superjet aircraft. Is this the case, or what?
        3. Moritz
          +1
          3 February 2013 19: 56
          Quote: Chicot 1
          in the domestic aircraft industry, the ears stick out of the "effective manager" Misha Poghosyan, who does not know where to attach his unnecessary "Super-Jet-100" ...
          I think that the rehearsals that began with the new Tu-214R also started not without the participation of Poghosyan ...

          the main thing is that the problem is clear ..... the problem must be solved bully
      2. Kaa
        +13
        3 February 2013 11: 10
        Quote: vaf
        Some modifications of these aircraft are direct competitors. "

        Good afternoon! I disagree, the niches of these two aircraft still differ, and there would be a place for both (for example, the Yak-40, An-24-26, Tu-134-154 and Yak-42 flew in the USSR, and a huge segment remained for the Il-18 and Il-62) In the VTA, the An-12 and Il-76 got along well for different tasks. And here it is quite logical to divide the market, BUT: Firstly, these planes do not wait on the market for Western aviation giants and litter here with evergreens, so that airlines take at least rubbish, but Western ones. cut-rollback, first of all), well, maybe there will be something for production. What do you want - not the time of production titans, but of temporary managers. "There were worse times, but there were no meaner ..." hi
        1. +8
          3 February 2013 11: 27
          Respected Kaa, you raked in one pile cars of different classes. And therefore, it is not entirely clear what you wanted to say by this ...
          If the fact that they all coexisted peacefully ... That is why they coexisted, because they worked in different segments (niches, shelves, corners - call it as convenient). Yes, sometimes they crossed, but this was not the rule. Rather, an exception. Moreover, the exception was economically justified, because that still Soviet Aeroflot worked as a perfectly debugged and tuned mechanism. Believe me, I know this from my own experience ...

          And to make it clearer, the Il-76 and An-12 are machines of different classes. They do not compete, they complement each other. As well as Tu-154 and Tu-134 ... But Tu-204 and Boeing-737 are already competitors, since they are machines of the same class and they will operate in the same segment. That's why Tupolev cars are trying to squeeze out of the domestic market ...
          And then Poghosyan's "Super-Jet-100" appeared, and the competition in this segment became even more intense ... Only now Misha Poghosyan's brainchild turned out to be somehow completely illiquid, and in order to push it into the world, he began to "hawala" competitors. And first of all, Tupolev machines ...
          1. +11
            3 February 2013 13: 03
            Dear Kaa and Chcot, you are both right!

            Simple, if you look at this topic from a different angle. It turns out - on our planet comes into force GLOBALIZATION, imposed by a certain circle ("Elite of the World") Weakened Russia has become another victim in everything, including:. We drowned our brainchild of the ISS, we ensure the launch of satellites of Western states (constantly spitting on our plate), we allowed THEM into our "nuclear bins", we launched the state's technology leader in the government, including in the aircraft industry. We became accomplices in the creation of the world's largest passenger airliner A-380, and the Boeing-787 "Dream Liner" (our titanium and its chassis products, etc.) In response, our "air friends" imposed on us "Super !!! Jet "- our glider and landing gear (our not surpassed niche), and everything else THEM. From the world's most powerful aircraft manufacturer, we can barely keep ourselves on the sidelines thanks to the miraculously survived production facilities - Su, and MiG. For the West, this is a remnant of Soviet bone in their throats. I think it is a big mistake, if not intent, to give priority in the construction of the transport (SPG-100 and MS) and even more so the PAKDA bombing aircraft corporation "Su", instead of "eating a dog on this" - Tu, Il or Yak. For our largest territorial country in the world transport, it is
            circulatory system, and in the absence of ground communications, our roads, AVIATION - the life of the country! It is obvious !
            1. Avenger711
              -1
              3 February 2013 16: 09
              In fact, their people at our nuclear facilities are in accordance with control agreements, and these things are mutual, similarly we have the right to inspect their factories for the production of warheads.
              1. +4
                3 February 2013 17: 10
                Quote..Avenger711 ... In fact, their people at our nuclear facilities are in accordance with the control agreements, and these are mutual things, similarly we have the right to inspect their warhead production plants.

                Quite right, Gorbachev with Shevarnadze and Yeltsin with Kozyrev were led to this. I can’t argue that this is accidental, or because of my non-professionalism, but .... THEM was completely divorced. As a result, nuclear weapons and their carriers
                (mine and mobile missiles, strategic Tu-160 bombers) were destroyed in Ukraine, In Russia, the most invulnerable railway MBRKs were destroyed, as well as mine-based.
                The refueling system was removed from the Tu - 22 and much, much more. Russia, like an obedient schoolboy, hastily performed everything. But the Anglo-Saxons, as always, threw their "partners". Most of the weapons (with a large residual resource) subject to destruction under the treaty have been mothballed. And the fact that mutual control in action is
                game and a reason for "military experts" to drink vodka with black caviar or whiskey with ice. Now the United States is preparing another hit on Russia, about further reduction of nuclear weapons.
                1. +4
                  3 February 2013 17: 45
                  Quote: askort154
                  In Russia, the most

                  Treaty on the elimination of medium and short-range missiles destroyed the Oka tactical missile system
                2. Avenger711
                  0
                  3 February 2013 19: 42
                  Well, if we agree that there are no more warheads, then this must be somehow controlled. The problem is not that something is being written off, it’s possible to smartly conclude an agreement that we, for example, remove equipment for refueling from bombers, write off such missiles within a certain period of time (well, so that we rot ourselves during this time) , you write off something of your own and get out nafig from such and such territories. We are building additional schools and hospitals for the saved billions. And you can, like ours.
                  1. +2
                    3 February 2013 22: 40
                    Quote: Avenger711
                    you can make a contract and smartly
                    We've cut everything, I hope this will be a good lesson for us. I never believed in "discharge." it happened.
          2. Kaa
            +3
            3 February 2013 13: 44
            Quote: Chicot 1
            it’s not entirely clear what you wanted to say.

            Corrected. feel Indeed, as I wrote about this, Aeroflot had a place for cars of different classes (you rightly write about the An-12 and Il-76). You can also braid An-32, An-124, An-225 - all of your segments. But the same is the case in a pair of Superjet (half of imported components, by the way) and An-148. An is a workhorse for BAD airfields, which in Russia and in the world to hell. And Superjet is an "intelligent" to the brain of software. Offhand, a little performance characteristics, there are differences, right?
            .An-148 modifications with a capacity of up to 85 passengers can carry out flights of the following length:
            - An 148-100A - transportation to a distance of 2000-3000 km
            - An 148-100V - transportation to a distance of 3000-4000 km
            - An 148-100E - transportation to a distance of 4000-4400 km
            An-148 aircraft is certified for flights from runways, which are in the following conditions: —wet dry
            - with a section of stagnant water
            - covered with hoarfrost or hoarfrost
            - covered with a layer of slush up to 15 mm
            - covered with a layer of snow up to 50 mm. An-148-100 aircraft can be delivered in different layouts of the cabin. When operating on regular flights, the plane houses economy and business class lounges that accommodate 68 passengers. In case of using the An-148-100 on charter flights in the cabin, 75-85 seats can only be used for economy class passengers. VIP-version An -148 allows you to carry up to 20 people in very comfortable conditions.The An-148 was designed for use on aerodromes with poor coverage of runways and taxiways. The high location of the engines (1,65 meters above ground level) can significantly reduce the amount of waste absorbed by the power plant compared to other modern regional aircraft. This in turn reduces the risk of engine damage and expands the number of airports into which the An-148 can fly. An-148 engines absorb only small particles weighing 3-6 grams, while the weight of particles absorbed by the engines of Embraer-170, Airbus A320 and Boeing-737 aircraft exceeds 200 grams. Runway length required (ISA conditions, at sea level) (m): 1850
            The family of Russian regional aircraft Sukhoi Superjet-100 consists of two aircraft with a passenger capacity of 75 and 95 seats in a basic configuration - SSJ100 / 75B and SSJ100 / 95B - and an extended range - SSJ100 / 75LR, SSJ100 / 95LR. The aerodynamic layout of SSJ-100 aircraft is specially optimized for flight at high cruising numbers M, due to which the optimal flight mode in terms of kilometer fuel consumption corresponds to the flight speed of modern long-haul aircraft. Passenger capacity in single-class configuration (seat pitch 32 ") - 98 Cruising speed LRC, IV - 0,78 Required runway length (MTOW, ISA, SL), 1731 and 2052 meters Maximum flight altitude (level) - 400 Flight range (full passenger load ), 3048 and 4578 km.
            So the goose pig is not a friend, but a substitute for different dinners laughing
        2. VAF
          VAF
          +6
          3 February 2013 11: 53
          Quote: Kaa
          I don’t agree, the niches of the two planes still differ, and there would be room for both


          Greetings, wise Kaa! +! fellow
          I agree that under the USSR, yes it was, but in the Russian Federation .. so it will never happen, unfortunately!
          Especially. that the super-duper cannot compete with the An-148 in any way .. well, no way !!!
          And if they don't strangle him 148, then the 158 car will be born. and this is like death for the UAC ... so only Super-Duper and air traffic from the west ... nothing else!
          1. Kaa
            +2
            3 February 2013 13: 46
            Quote: vaf
            Especially. that the super-duper cannot compete with the An-148 in any way .. well, no way !!!

            It is always nice when an amateur says a good word to a professional. Flattered. drinks
      3. +4
        3 February 2013 11: 32
        Yes, Sergei, not all "effective managers" have been kicked out of key areas for Russia yet. It's a pity! what
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +6
          3 February 2013 11: 58
          Quote: alexneg
          not all "effective managers" have yet been kicked out of key areas


          Hello, Alexander! +! drinks

          This ... "the most effective" .. "covered up" the T-50'm and the Su-35'm and ... "does" now everything .. that he wants.
          Absorbed completely Novosibirsk and Komsomolsk crying and now they are ordinary aircraft factories at the KLA, with all the consequences!

          Thank God that Irkutsk is still holding ..independent! soldier
          1. +3
            3 February 2013 17: 04
            Good afternoon, veteran! To be honest, it's pretty hard to hold on. On occasion, "frown" regularly. But from the interesting things I can say the following we did here the other day, the resource compartment on MC 21. It seems that nothing happened, let's see what the tests show.

            Good afternoon, veteran! To be honest, it's pretty hard to hold on. On occasion, "frown" regularly. But from the interesting things I can say the following we did here the other day, the resource compartment on MC 21. It seems that nothing happened, let's see what the tests show.
          2. +1
            4 February 2013 01: 33
            Sergey, what do you think about the Iranian fighter qaher-313. It seems from the point of view of the amateur in this matter, he has an original aerodynamic design. Thank you in advance.
      4. +4
        3 February 2013 15: 20
        Only Super-Duper - .. "ahead of the rest

        If you managed to get into the 300 boards with a duper for payback - there would already be great happiness. And then I looked, the list of orders does not grow in any way. Only shrinking.
      5. Moritz
        0
        3 February 2013 19: 52
        Quote: vaf
        So dear ... recourse

        The article clearly and understandably says: .... "The unhappy fate of the An-148 regional aircraft was due to the simultaneous launch of another Russian project -" Sukhoi Superjet 100 "into production. Some modifications of these aircraft are direct competitors."

        So all further conversations .. this is a waste of time .. alas request

        Only Super-Duper - .. "ahead of the rest" wassat

        we already manage competition manually
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +2
          3 February 2013 20: 09
          Quote: moritz
          we already manage competition manually


          For centuries, this has been the case in the country of the Soviets, and not only in aviation wink +!

          Only under Soviet Power, they were "crushed" by authority (Tupolev and ... Sukhoi, Myasishchev Bortini), while the missilemen (Chalomey and ... Kuznetsov are purely for naval anti-ship missiles and the Kyrgyz Republic) drinks
          1. Moritz
            0
            3 February 2013 20: 35
            Quote: vaf
            For centuries, this has been the case in the country of the Soviets, and not only in aviation wink +!

            they only approached this issue more responsibly, because hundreds of thousands of workers worked at these enterprises and all had to be provided with orders. And now we provide work with foreign labor.
            1. VAF
              VAF
              +1
              3 February 2013 21: 48
              Quote: moritz
              they only approached this issue more responsibly, because hundreds of thousands of workers worked at these enterprises and all had to be provided with orders. And now we provide work with foreign labor


              Indisputable and Indisputable. As a FACT! +! drinks
  5. Akim
    +9
    3 February 2013 09: 04
    North Korean An-148. and there is still for Cuba on the stocks.
  6. +13
    3 February 2013 09: 48
    However, an extended version of the An-158 will not be produced in Russia, due to difficulties in entering the Russian commercial aviation market.

    What other difficulties?
    Western "secondhand" we have no difficulties, and domestic cars have ...
    Some sort of bullshit.
    1. +5
      3 February 2013 11: 00
      The main difficulty for the An-158 is Misha Poghosyan himself and his Super-Jet-100. And the first does not know where and to whom to attach the second. Because this second one tries ... nobody needs ... And then there's Antonov's car. The car that air carriers are likely to acquire ...
      That's all the difficulties however, dear Ivan Tarasov...
      1. +4
        3 February 2013 11: 13
        SD-100 should not be mass-produced at all, this program is a fake, a machine for testing new technologies.
    2. +10
      3 February 2013 11: 00
      What good can be said about Poghosyan, but nothing. He may be a good leader for the Sukhoi company, but for Russia as a whole it is a saboteur. Since, because of one Super, the companies Yak, Tu, Il, An were put on the blades (although this is officially Ukrainian, but there was also an assembly in Russia).
  7. Akim
    +9
    3 February 2013 10: 59
    An-158 may be a competitor of S / J, but on the other hand it is assembled without Entente units (only domestic units). Antonov cars are the only ones that bypass US sanctions for Iran., North Korea and the Republic of Cuba.
    1. +7
      3 February 2013 11: 12
      that is not ... there is a lot of European and US (essesno an order of magnitude less than in Sukhoi). Once in an interview, Boguslaev complained that he had to buy electrical connectors in Omerik, since they no longer produce them in the post-Soviet Union, and the technological capability was lost. And sho omerikantsy make him according to the Soviet GOST and with a change in the connector design like "shob bulo like in the USSR".
      1. +4
        3 February 2013 15: 06
        Quote: Aeneas
        on the type "Schaub Bulo as in the USSR".


        )))))))))) ++++++++++++++

        And maybe ... all Yanukovych, Tymoshenko and others and let
        Quote: Aeneas
        "Schaub bulo like in the USSR".
        !!!
  8. 0
    3 February 2013 10: 59
    let them use the "gap" of our lineup for now ...
  9. Algor73
    +5
    3 February 2013 11: 07
    Hmmm ... Personal ambitions above all ... The fact that Antonov’s company is falling apart is not significant for Russia. But at the same time, the Russian aircraft factories occupied by the pragmas of An are no longer sabotage of the Ukrainian one. This is a crime against the Russian state.
    1. Akim
      +4
      3 February 2013 11: 13
      Quote: Algor73
      That the Antonov firm is falling apart,

      And why, then, with Iran were signed contracts for the supply of 80 machines of the An-148 (58) family, the purchase of 60 An-140 (IrAn-140) machines and two dozen An-74TK-300s?
      1. Algor73
        +1
        3 February 2013 11: 22
        If possible, then more specifically about contracts ...
        1. Akim
          +1
          3 February 2013 11: 28
          In early December, the Iranians came about this. The contract for An-148 (158) has not yet been signed - it was planned for January / February. Validity -20 years. 16 cars will be assembled in Ukraine 64 - in Iran.
          1. Algor73
            0
            3 February 2013 11: 51
            These are all plans. And with the current ambitions of the United States regarding Iran, it will be the same as with the contract for armored personnel carriers with Iraq, which they already want to terminate. And without contracts - death. They practically filled up the KMDB, and they will also overwhelm Antonov. And not because the technology is bad, but because the government is not specific.
          2. Avenger711
            -1
            3 February 2013 19: 44
            Here they will sign, there will be wines, but to promise does not mean to marry, and I feel how it will be with BTR-4 ...
      2. VAF
        VAF
        +7
        3 February 2013 12: 02
        Quote: Akim
        And why, then, with Iran were signed contracts for the supply of 80 machines of the An-148 (58) family, the purchase of 60 An-140 (IrAn-140) machines and two dozen An-74TK-300s?


        But because Antonovites though live and work! +! What I sincerely wish them fellow

        And because you, the US-state "got away" from the "help" of KB ... only from YOU in general, and from US ... only for the "elite" represented by the UAC!
        1. Akim
          +7
          3 February 2013 12: 07
          Quote: vaf
          And because you, then the US-state "left" from "help"

          It’s like in the phrase: There could have been more victims, but the ambulances were late! stop
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +2
            3 February 2013 12: 30
            Quote: Akim
            There could have been more victims, but the ambulances were late!


            good lol +! laughing
        2. Avenger711
          -1
          3 February 2013 19: 46
          Indeed, why should the Antonovites be helped at all?

          http://superjet.wikidot.com/wiki:an-148-desevyj

          They already have everything. In addition to orders.
  10. avt
    +6
    3 February 2013 11: 23
    --------- KLA head Mikhail Pogosyan, who is also the main one in the Superjet project, recently announced that the basic version of the An-148 will remain in the KLA order portfolio, taking the place of an unrealized shortened version of Superjet under the index 100-75. However, an extended version of the An-158 will not be produced in Russia, because of the difficulties in entering the Russian commercial aviation market .------------- That is, in translation into Russian, he practically signed a sincere confession to Super Jet is a big financial scam. But I’m ready to share it if they don’t dig.
    1. Avenger711
      -1
      3 February 2013 19: 46
      Hard go, when everywhere hidden meaning seems?
  11. +6
    3 February 2013 11: 26
    Apart from the competition between Russia and Ukraine, it seems to me that there is also someone who “doesn’t like” that Antonovtsy is still a state company, and it would be possible to get some private hands. So they put them in such a position so that later you can buy cheaply, and only then ...
    1. Algor73
      +5
      3 February 2013 11: 31
      And only the Russian side will be able to buy a company. And then ... It will be that with the Yak and Tu. In short, Poghosyan does not need competitors.
      1. VAF
        VAF
        +4
        3 February 2013 12: 08
        Quote: Algor73
        And only the Russian side will be able to buy a company


        Why? Not only the Russian Federation ... after all, they will not buy a company and production, but only a design bureau or all together, but then all production will go bankrupt!

        And the design bureau with its developments and specialists .. yes good !

        A very tidbit, there are promising developments for a lot of years ahead!

        For the rest I agree ... the fate will be the same, +! recourse
    2. VAF
      VAF
      +5
      3 February 2013 12: 05
      Quote: Egoza
      Antonovtsy is still a state-owned company, and in fact it would have been possible to get it in private hands. So they put it in such a position that later you can buy cheaply, and only then ...


      Dear Elena, only +! ... but "I'm afraid" the "western lads" will take over!
      1. Akim
        +4
        3 February 2013 12: 10
        Quote: vaf
        I'm afraid "Western lads" will "take over"!

        Airbus and Boeing will gladly buy it to remove a competitor.
      2. Algor73
        +1
        3 February 2013 12: 11
        "Western lads" who is this? If Europe - then they don't need it for nothing, but if the nouveau riche are from Western Ukraine - then they are not there. All capital is concentrated in the hands of oligarchs from eastern and partly central Ukraine.
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +3
          3 February 2013 12: 33
          Quote: Algor73
          "Western lads" who is this?


          Well, of course not .. "zapadentsy" wassat

          Above, I clearly wrote who, and why, and then what ... maybe they will do with this purchase wink
        2. Avenger711
          -1
          3 February 2013 13: 41
          Well, the fact that the East feeds Galicia and so everyone knows. There’s even nothing to steal.
  12. Uncle Serozha
    +3
    3 February 2013 12: 23
    VACATION OF VICTIMS AND SUPER-KNOWLEDGE WITH OPERA SCENES!
    Airlines need real An-158 and Tu-334!
    1. Avenger711
      -1
      3 February 2013 19: 47
      Well done, get a penny from the customer.
  13. toguns
    +2
    3 February 2013 12: 33
    wassat this all went well, we don’t need Ana, many will start to object to me thinking up various arguments, but the fact remains that it is necessary to raise our aircraft industry (Carcasses, Jets, ms-21, etc.), and not someone else's.
    1. Algor73
      +7
      3 February 2013 12: 48
      What a stranger it is when practically everything is produced in Russia. The Jet is half western.
      1. toguns
        +1
        3 February 2013 14: 20
        Quote: Algor73
        What a stranger it is when practically everything is produced in Russia. The Jet is half western.

        The question is, why do we need to build an if there is one, il, su ???
        "Western" and why not borrow some technologies from more experienced Western colleagues ???
      2. Avenger711
        -1
        3 February 2013 19: 49
        The link about the blatant lie about how much the An-148, which was not even developed in the Russian design bureau, ours, already slipped here.
    2. Akim
      +4
      3 February 2013 12: 57
      toguns,
      If we are in the "zapadlo" for patriotism, then it's better to build the Tu-334. True, there are Ukrainian engines as well. But they can be replaced with Superjets. But it will be more "Russian" plane than a hodgepodge from Sukhoi.
      1. toguns
        +1
        3 February 2013 14: 29
        Quote: Akim
        toguns,
        If we are in the "zapadlo" for patriotism, then it's better to build the Tu-334. True, there are Ukrainian engines as well. But they can be replaced with Superjets. But it will be more "Russian" plane than a hodgepodge from Sukhoi

        envy silently, this hodgepodge gives a result while some scratch one place.
        1. Akim
          +1
          3 February 2013 14: 37
          Quote: toguns
          envy silently

          I absolutely do not envy. I am neither cold nor hot from the one who sells more samikov. Me and my acquaintances will not get anything from this and self-respect will not suffer. So, "leavened patriotism" in comparison of the T-90 and BM Oplot & S / D-100 and An-158 will not lead to any result. It is in sports that you can cheer and not in this garbage.
          1. toguns
            +2
            3 February 2013 14: 56
            Quote: Akim
            I absolutely do not envy. I am neither cold nor hot from the one who sells more samikov. Me and my acquaintances will not get anything from this and self-respect will not suffer. So, "leavened patriotism" in comparison of the T-90 and BM Oplot & S / D-100 and An-158 will not lead to any result. It is in sports that you can cheer and not in this garbage.

            and here is leavened patriotism ???
            do you have problems with logic ???
            there are projects that are economically feasible, but there are candy wrappers, so there is a bastion and an-158 wrappers of clean water.
            1. Akim
              +2
              3 February 2013 15: 02
              Quote: toguns
              and there are candy wrappers so here is a stronghold and an-158 candy wrappers of pure water.

              I already wrote above These "candy wrappers" will start selling to Iran this year, BM Oplot is being sold to Thailand. Pyongyang for some reason bought Antonov's car and not S / J.
              1. toguns
                +2
                3 February 2013 15: 11
                Quote: Akim
                I already wrote above These "candy wrappers" will start selling to Iran this year, BM Oplot is being sold to Thailand. Pyongyang for some reason bought Antonov's car and not S / J.

                laughing in the sense that they were chosen :)
                where do you wake them ???
                Well, with tanks ... I’ll probably be looking for rollers for tanks throughout Russia :)
                1. Akim
                  +4
                  3 February 2013 15: 34
                  Quote: toguns
                  I’ll probably be looking for rollers for tanks throughout Russia :)

                  I understood your words: how: without Russia we are nowhere. But I'm not interested in political issues. And economic - I can only remember sanctions and trade wars. The only joint project in recent years is a nuclear fuel manufacturing plant.
                  PS By the way, in the state of Ukraine a completely closed tank production cycle
                  1. toguns
                    +1
                    3 February 2013 16: 21
                    Quote: Akim
                    I understood your words: how: without Russia we are nowhere. But I'm not interested in political issues. And economic - I can only remember sanctions and trade wars. The only joint project in recent years is a nuclear fuel manufacturing plant.
                    PS By the way, in the state of Ukraine a completely closed tank production cycle

                    wassat what does Russia have to do with ??? you wedge is not sickly on this topic.
                    There are no capacities for the normal construction of Anovs in Russia for sure, especially in Ukraine.
                    ps
                    what cycle of Ukrainian tanks I have read in the course of "Malyshevites", Zoshchenko is resting on the sidelines.
                    1. Akim
                      +2
                      3 February 2013 16: 32
                      Quote: toguns
                      There are no capacities for the normal construction of Anovs in Russia for sure, especially in Ukraine. ps

                      If they build, then there are no capacities. This year in Kiev they plan to release 8 pieces of 148 (158) and in Kharkov the rest of the lineup.
                      1. toguns
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 17: 05
                        Quote: Akim
                        If they build, then there are no capacities. This year in Kiev they plan to release 8 pieces of 148 (158) and in Kharkov the rest of the lineup.

                        ANTK + Avianta
                        2010 1 piece
                        An-148-100V UR-NTC
                        2011 1 piece
                        An-148-100V UR-NTD
                        2012 1 piece
                        An-148-100V P-671
                        2013 Kiev + Kharkov more than 8 mi from what a fright ???
                      2. Akim
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 17: 12
                        Quote: toguns
                        2013 Kiev + Kharkov more than 8 mi from what a fright ???


                        In that year, 6 aircraft somehow made, ..
                      3. toguns
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 17: 19
                        Quote: Akim
                        In that year, 6 aircraft somehow made, ..

                        call a spade a spade made other plants located in the territory of another state.
                        and the question of 6 pieces is it all anovs, or is it just about An-148 ???
                        if you mean the total then everything
                        it is clear where 6 pieces came from
                        it
                        2 An-140-100 Aviakor
                        3 An148 VASO: 1 An-148-100V and 2 An-148-100e
                        1 An-148-100V Avianta

                      4. Akim
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 17: 30
                        Quote: toguns
                        and the question of 6 pieces is it all anovs, or is it just about An-148 ???

                        Of course all models. And 32 and 140 and 74 and 148 and 158th. And what about the quantity. We all understand perfectly well that factories do not work for a warehouse. There are orders - there is work. Once the journalists wrote that Ukrainian enterprises would make an MDK of the Zubr type in 10 years, and it was assembled from scratch in a year and a half. Do not be prejudiced against neighbors.
                      5. toguns
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 17: 41
                        Quote: Akim
                        Of course all models. And 32 and 140 and 74 and 148 and 158th. And what about the quantity. We all understand perfectly well that factories do not work for a warehouse. There are orders - there is work. Once the journalists wrote that Ukrainian enterprises would make an MDK of the Zubr type in 10 years, and it was assembled from scratch in a year and a half. Do not be prejudiced against neighbors.

                        The statement of obvious facts is a biased attitude towards neighbors ??? Oh well wassat
                      6. Akim
                        0
                        3 February 2013 17: 54
                        Quote: toguns
                        tating obvious facts is a bias towards neighbors

                        Of course not. But the facts are rather weak.
                      7. toguns
                        -1
                        3 February 2013 18: 10
                        Quote: Akim
                        Of course not. But the facts are rather weak.

                        wassat I do not argue your facts are nowhere weaker :)
                        The number of produced Ukrainian Anov speaks for itself laughing
                      8. Akim
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 18: 29
                        Quote: toguns
                        The number of produced Ukrainian Anov speaks for itself

                        I said. They were produced that year 6-eat. I have already announced plans for An 148 (158). There would be orders. For example, Ukraine only that year earned in space half a billion dollars. Is this amount known. Did they write about this in the Russian media? We have frantic competitions in the universities of these profiles.
                      9. toguns
                        0
                        3 February 2013 18: 56
                        Quote: Akim
                        I said. They were produced that year 6-eat. I have already announced plans for An 148 (158). There would be orders.

                        wassat not 6, but Adyn’s thing Akim don’t lie to it in the first place.
                        and secondly, "some" capacities are available only in Russia, in Ukraine this is actually one thing thrown by all Antonov's design bureaus.
                        moral all your contracts are not worth a damn without our facilities.
                      10. Akim
                        0
                        3 February 2013 19: 04
                        toguns,
                        You want to believe that everything will be X. Well, let it be so. I will not persuade. This makes no sense. I gave information, but because they will criticize him, he will not change. They’ll do it well. They won’t do it, well ... The planet will not stop.
                2. Avenger711
                  -1
                  3 February 2013 23: 00
                  So they are already looking for the same. laughing
          2. Avenger711
            +1
            3 February 2013 19: 51
            Apparently you do not need to eat anything? And the money is not needed?
            1. Akim
              +2
              3 February 2013 19: 57
              Avenger711,
              I'm not starving. You don't have to come to Odessa with your own food. And don't read "Soviet" newspapers. Personally, my salary will not change in any way - will these planes be made or not.
  14. stranik72
    +5
    3 February 2013 13: 33
    Uncle Seryozha,
    [I support in Russia a public organization has already been created to save TU-334, type in a search engine you will see. And as for the population, with his arrival, the aircraft industry is being Armenized, so I support, in all design bureaus trepmanegra with Armenian name and surname appeared. still in 2 posts, but for now. They don’t know how to design, but they like to push money.
    1. +1
      3 February 2013 16: 53
      about this "public organization", paid for by Tovarischem Boguslaev, it was definitely, with humor, sorted out at specialized aviation forums - I recommend reading, you will not regret it. (I advise you just do not be lazy and read the last 8-10 pages of the topic http://www.aviaport.ru/conferences /14151/169.html) briefly - gamble and Khlestakovism in its purest form, the meaning is simple - "give the dough !!!!!"
      PS in itself 334 sorry, BUT !!! LATE, HIS TIME HAS PASSED ...
  15. Avenger711
    +1
    3 February 2013 13: 40
    As expected, everything will go to Poghosyan and SSJ, who supposedly killed everything.

    Well, for a start, let's take a look at the same Pedivics:

    Total number of orders: 183 pcs.
    Option: 73.

    A significant part of orders falls on foreign customers.

    In total, 23 cars were produced at the end of 2012. Cars are already stamping like hot cakes. This directly contradicts the cries that Poghosyan, allegedly, does not know where to put him. Poghosyan just knows, but as for the design bureau named after Antonov, then tell me, a fool, one thing, if the An-148 is so good and successfully flew already in the 2009th year, then why there are no orders for it? The design bureau itself is in Kiev, can’t they carry out an advertising campaign and other actions to promote its product? UAC interferes with them?

    Or maybe everything is simpler? While in the 90s, everyone rented out the premises of design bureaus and factories for stalls, KNAAPO and Irkut made orders for China and India, and the only ones who retained the ability to really produce aircraft, and not work with language. Yes, they were lucky that they pulled out the Su-27, but now it doesn't matter anymore, except for the Sukhoi, not a single capable design bureau is left in the CIS. And their products, except for a very niche one like the Be-200, are simply not needed by anyone, because they simply cannot be brought to mind. And Poghosyan has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    1. +1
      3 February 2013 14: 44
      and which of the foreigners acquired the CJS? It seemed like there was info about Mexicans, for some reason they were equipped and painted in Italy, and the Indonesians received from Russia a soft loan for the purchase of weapons and Sukhoi to the heap.
      1. 0
        3 February 2013 15: 35
        Here are such gorlopov like you, my dear, and they are driving a wave of gov..na, although not in the tooth nogry - before you would at least read something on the topic or something. which of the foreigners acquired - google to help - laziness to press buttons or something.
        about equipping and painting in Italy - equip and paint there BUSINESS JETS - if you understand the difference. For you, I’m writing specifically - in the country (not in the one that you have in your profile), a cooperation system for serial production of SSN is being created - final assembly in Komsomolsk, parts of the airframe and assemblies are made in Novosibirsk, Voronezh, Kazan was offered, it refused. After the final assembly is distilled to Ulyanovsk - there is painting. NON-COLORED BUSINESS JETS are driven to Italy - where they also paint the interior (at the request of the customer)
      2. Avenger711
        0
        3 February 2013 16: 05
        Well, look at Pedivikia, and I don’t know who they receive in what order there.
        It's pretty stupid to ask questions like this when you can just look. Usually these are just sent to Google.
        1. +2
          3 February 2013 17: 09
          well looked at Wikipedia, and sho? where there is a "firm contract" - the Italian Interjet refused, "the project is completed" - Armavia returned. Well, at the well-known. There are data on deliveries in 2012 to the Poles and Lao (or whatever they are). I climbed to the site for the Poles, they do not have Superjets, they will rush to the Laotians too lazy :-( Well, to a heap Aeroflot recently suspended flights of its Sukhoi. It is interesting, of course, to see the operation of the SSZ Yakutia, they also recently received a board. 50 ... Nah, don't think I'm against the Supers. Don't let them fly and make money. There are such buckets of buzz, but if they don't buy it, it will not be a defeat for Poghosyan, but for the entire Russian government. For this project can be seen and touched hands, unlike all sorts of nano technologies, Skolkovo, "affordable housing", a doubling of GDP, police reform, cancellation of winter time, etc.
          1. Avenger711
            0
            3 February 2013 23: 24
            Bucked there only 500 million.
            The link on the analysis of fairy tales about the expensive and unsuccessful SSJ and supposedly wonderful An-148 seemed to be there already.
    2. Horde
      +1
      3 February 2013 16: 01
      Quote: Avenger711


      but as for the design bureau named after Antonov, then tell me, a fool, one thing, if the An-148 is so good and successfully flew already in the 2009th year, then why there are no orders for it?


      It’s hard to explain to a fool, of course, but we’ll try for the hundredth time.
      -super-duper 80% not ours, respectively, are earned by strangers. This is a new form of colonial dependence, when chairs for a few thousand apiece are sold by OUR, American expensive avionics-electronics, for the most part and much more in PUPER. I repeat EVERYTHING at fixed and very high prices. Our need to collect everything - make it fly and most importantly
      SELL to someone, but only here to sell the aircraft in a market crowded with similar goods can only be in ONE way - lowering the PRICES of the aircraft below the competition. Since it is not necessary to count on a decrease in Western components, it is good to vary the prices at the expense of their manufacturers for the benefit of Poghosyan, who wants to and turns. As a result, one can remain without profit at all. Therefore, as the hard workers 10-15 thousand will remain, it is problematic to plan the development of production, the replacement of other people's parts with ours also applies.
      You say, "a solid portfolio of orders" do not forget in this portfolio such financial giants as Armenia, Mexico, Indonesia and our companies, which are twisting their hands.
      By the way, another moment, the Medvedev government opens loans to everyone who is going to buy PUPERS. Well, what is this talking about? That Russian money is stupid through loans, through SUPERPOOPER go to the side, and whether to return when no one is interested.

      1. Avenger711
        0
        3 February 2013 16: 23
        -super-duper 80% are not ours, respectively, strangers earn on it.


        Firstly, this is a lie, and secondly, now in the world there are no civilian aircraft that would be made in one country.

        For some reason, our companies did not take our super-duper liners, someone was standing over them all, that they preferred the killed Boeing to the new Tu?

        As for the engine, this is a joint development, no one forbade the Klimovites to make their own and better. Something doesn't work out, however. With motors, we generally suck. Even the T-50 has a bottleneck in the entire project - the engine. In the USSR, they knew how to make, and not only airplanes, but also the same cars. Now you yourself are spitting on "Kalina", but the simple fact that the remnants of our aircraft industry and its products do not reach you in the same way. There are no miracles. And to eliminate the consequences of the collapse of the 90s, and especially to make up for lost time, while the competitors were developing, it will not work with a hat.
  16. Akim
    +1
    3 February 2013 13: 50
    Was there a proposal to make a passenger plane on the basis of Ruslan or is it all rumors?
    1. Avenger711
      0
      3 February 2013 14: 31
      The idea is not very good, if only because the An-124 is high-wing, it’s typical for trucks, because you can have a larger cargo compartment, but it’s inconvenient to maintain, so all (95%) passenger planes are low-winged.
      1. Akim
        +4
        3 February 2013 14: 53
        Quote: Avenger711
        The idea is not very, if only because the An-124 is a high-wing,

        All Antonov’s passenger planes with a top wing do not care about the quality of the airdrome and their altitude, although Antonov had low-level projects (An-180 and 218).
        1. Avenger711
          0
          3 February 2013 15: 46
          Passenger airplanes actually land on concrete, and such as An-124 on very non-fucking concrete. Different types of An-24 exist in the mass of options and at the same time are relatively small, i.e. the layout of the high-wing plan does not require a lift to be adjusted to them, if you need to inspect the engine. At the same time, there are no purely passenger models among ANs. But the carcasses with Ilami, which have never aspired to universalism, are always low-lying, IL-76, as a truck only confirms the rule, an exception.
          Uplan is a small L-410. Again, the overall height is small, and the engines are farther from the ground.
          That is, the trend is this, small planes are usually high-winged, purely cargo ones too, but passenger cars larger than the An-10 are completely low-winged.

          Again, the layout, a long and relatively narrow fuselage of a passenger car and a cargo truck, which usually carries not long loads, but that is wide and heavy.

          In general, you can make a bus from KAMAZ and even do it sometimes, but in general, it is a perversion.
          1. Akim
            +2
            3 February 2013 15: 53
            Quote: Avenger711
            In general, you can make a bus from KAMAZ


            I asked who heard something about it. And reasoning: Whether it is possible or not is not for us to decide.
            1. Avenger711
              0
              3 February 2013 16: 03
              This is the bus. And rather vile, I prefer Czech Carossa, delivered here back in the 90s with a huge party instead of LiAZ-677, and still serving a lot of routes.
              And there are options for installing a passenger compartment on a truck chassis, which is used where patency is needed, but not in flights that require at least some road availability.
              1. Akim
                0
                3 February 2013 16: 06
                Quote: Avenger711
                And rather vile,


                In Odessa, bought a few pieces about 4 years ago. Now I don’t see a single one. And the interior of the bus behind the cab is called a shift. Previously, such mountain rescuers went to Donetsk.
  17. +1
    3 February 2013 14: 13
    AN-148 is quite a frisky aircraft. smile Kiev-Kharkov. smile
  18. 0
    3 February 2013 14: 41
    how many experts appeared, hospodi, if only they would read something like this;
    What the An-148 is made of http://superjet.wikidot.com/wiki:iz-cego-sdelan-an-148
    and think
  19. +2
    3 February 2013 14: 59
    Yes, a good An-148 car, and a transport option can be made.
    But it is necessary to organize a series, at least half a hundred.
    There is no hope for private business in Russia, let alone in Ukraine. So far, private companies have no significant achievements in the high-tech sphere.
    Reliance on the state. order.
    And for the quality of workmanship and after-sales service must be the head responsible directors and bosses. Very highly paid, by the way.
    Not the fact that sensible people are sitting there. an example of the same stool is evident. This is the catch. Yes It was not a woman’s case ...
    The issue price is 1,5 billion green. Taburetkin and K found such a sum on the Mistral's mouthful of French.
    1. Akim
      +4
      3 February 2013 15: 07
      Quote: Alekseev
      and transport option can be done.

      There is a transport one, his name is An-178. Fly this year. The Turks, Iran and Pakistan became interested in him.
    2. +1
      3 February 2013 15: 22
      so let it build at its own expense - you would ask why Ukraine does not let its government order go into business? Why is it constantly climbing to us? The secret is simple - HE DOESN'T NEED ANYONE !!!! so the parasite is always looking for someone to suck on ... otherwise it does not work for them ...
      1. Akim
        +1
        3 February 2013 15: 40
        While you personally and yours will mix economy and politics with our governments - nothing will come of it!
        1. +1
          3 February 2013 15: 48
          I will nevertheless correct you, dear ... YOU will not succeed ... all your sobs, tovarisch, arose for one reason - if feeding from the outside from the Russian budget ends, then ALL ANS projects will be bent, because even the UKRAINIAN airlines do not need them , you will only have a piece production, which will gradually bend ... the SSZ project - no matter how you, dear and your likes, develops on the forums. Yes, not as quickly as you would like, not everything is so smooth, but as Misha Labeled "THE PROCESS WAS GOING" ... You, as well as the paid Boguslaev magazines, have to become like those dogs barking at the marching caravan ...
          1. Akim
            +1
            3 February 2013 15: 56
            katran666,
            I stop talking with the Nazi!
            1. +2
              3 February 2013 16: 42
              dear, I did not expect anything else from you. Svidomo idiots always have a mirror to blame, you just have to say a word against it, that’s the label - the Nazi ... fat to the heroes !!!!
              1. Akim
                +3
                3 February 2013 16: 50
                katran666,
                30 drops of valerian and a glass of fat-free kefir. It will help calm down.
                When you talk about economics without a political darling, I will step into the discussion
  20. +3
    3 February 2013 15: 53
    They are trying to bankrupt Antonov to the globalists. By the way, the globalists and their assistants had a great frolic in Russia. And the same Poghosyan KLA think that if it belongs to the state, it is partially. And the Medvedev government, with the support of the United Russia, is dragging through the Duma the last section of state property, which has not yet tidied up the hands of a narrow circle of people, and even tidy up all the savings made by Russia over 20 years. This is the money that, thanks to the "best financier in the world" Kudrin, did not get to the development of production in Russia, but was accumulated in funds and stored in the West. So guys, this is all nonsense. In the next 2-3 years, either we will be handed over with giblets to the "globalists", or there will be a cool mess in the world and then perhaps "the living will envy the dead." Sincerely.
    1. Avenger711
      -1
      3 February 2013 18: 38
      Who needs this Antonov, who has long been living on what he has left of the USSR, including a fleet of transport aircraft.
  21. Avenger711
    -2
    3 February 2013 17: 04
    For all hysterics about foreign components, I recommend that you first throw out your Ford Focus, Renault Logan, or, whatever, you have and buy a TAZ. Then replace your PC with Elbrus. If this does not suit you, then the buyers of any An-148 may not even be happy with this rubbish either. Simply because this is outdated rubbish that nobody in the world needs nafig when you can easily buy Boeing, Airbus or something else without problems.

    http://superjet.wikidot.com/
    1. +4
      3 February 2013 17: 50
      you mother oil and gas-father mind clouded No. The same TAZ in the early 80s was quite successfully purchased by the French, Britons, Latinos. And "Elbrus", in terms of iron, was almost as good as Apple. Now you advocate sending the latter to the scrap, more or less high-tech at the world level, because you can buy truncated dollars for oil. I agree, you can. Only the puppeteers of world finance and prices are sitting in New York. And when political necessity overcomes mercantile interests, they will “merge” the oil, as they did in the late 80s, and Russia will find itself within the Vladimir-Suzdal principality.
      1. Avenger711
        -2
        3 February 2013 18: 35
        Purchased. But by the year 200, they had stopped buying, because while we had shared the acquired labor of millions of Soviet citizens, they did not doze off in the west either. As for netfi and gas, so envy silently. And then it turned out all of a sudden that it was not from Nenko that the fat was taken out, but she herself was sitting on the pipe. It is foolish to blame a neighbor for having something when you yourself left his apartment, leaving there a whole bunch of necessary nishtyaks for the use of which the neighbor now asks for money and guarantees.

        Here we have news about the failed Ukraine contract for the BTR-4 for Iraq yet? And then on bmpd everything is frayed. Only we have billions to get out of this, and they are invested, it’s poor and the TAZs begin to travel, and planes fly and even sell abroad. Where they themselves learned, where they bought from the bourgeoisie. But in Ukraine ...
        1. Akim
          +2
          3 February 2013 18: 43
          Quote: Avenger711
          Here we have news about the failed Ukraine contract for the BTR-4 for Iraq yet?

          Even if Iraq starts buying armored vehicles in other countries, you can imagine what a violation of logistics. Although Iraq does not get used to And about the contract - if it is torn apart by the Malshevites. I never liked Zhiguli.
    2. +3
      3 February 2013 17: 58
      The phrase of daddy Makhno from the famous movie comes to mind: "fool, but still of the general staff"
      It seems to be trained to read and write, but does not understand that a.) An-148 is not at all outdated rubbish. B.) To buy something "without problems", you need to sell something sensible without problems. And how will oil become cheaper? then a real "hysterical" will come wassat
      1. Avenger711
        -1
        3 February 2013 18: 36
        It’s not our problem for what kind of money an airline is somewhere in the USA, or Zimbabwe will buy our planes.
        And just do not need about oil, it, as a product is no worse than Chinese T-shirts, or cell phones.
      2. toguns
        -3
        3 February 2013 19: 03
        Quote: Alekseev
        a.) An-148 is not at all outdated trash b.) To buy something "without problems", you need to sell something sensible without problems. And how will oil become cheaper? then a real "hysteric" will come

        Be quiet, you will marry a smart wassat