Expedition to the ancestors. "Papyrus for Fun"

107
Expedition to the ancestors. "Papyrus for Fun"


"Your shepherd, sheep,
in the water among the fish.
He talks with the catfish,
he is talking to a pike..."

Song of the Ancient Egyptian Shepherd

History and culture. We continue to introduce VO readers to the art and culture of Ancient Egypt. And today we will again turn to Egyptian papyri as an extremely important source of information. A lot of them were found, and not just a lot, but a lot. But at the same time, the most important of them are even given their own names, both according to the names of their discoverers and according to the place of storage. Therefore, there are, for example, the “Ebers papyrus”, “Turin papyrus”, “Moscow papyrus” and many others.




Satirical plots of the "Turin Papyrus". Egyptian Museum, Turin

Reading them, you can once again be convinced of what a blessing writing is, both for civilization itself and for its researchers. Here, for example, is the same “Ebers papyrus”.

This is the oldest treatise on medicine, along with the Edwin Smith papyrus. It describes the symptoms of various diseases and methods of diagnosing them, describes the preparation of medicines and methods of treatment. Here you can find information from the field of parasitology, dentistry, and even gynecology, and... contraception. That is, the Egyptians understood all this, and quite well, although they did not disdain magical conspiracies, which, in their opinion, should have helped the doctor defeat the disease.

This papyrus also included astronomical observations that are important for dating historical events in Ancient Egypt.
By the way, the Edwin Smith papyrus was bought by him in Egypt back in 1862, and then bought for 15 thousand thalers in 1872 by Egyptologist from Germany Georg Ebers for the museum in Leipzig. Its length was more than 20 meters!

Unfortunately, during the Second World War it suffered greatly from the bombing of Leipzig by the Anglo-American aviation, and not only suffered - many of its parts were simply lost. Today, like a huge treasure, this papyrus is kept in the library of the University of Leipzig.

Equally informative, in terms of our acquaintance with the life of the ancient Egyptians, is the famous “Teaching of Kheti.” The “Teaching” was copied many times by Egyptian schoolchildren, so about 250 papyri from the 19th dynasty (1350–1200 BC) have reached us.

The text of the “Instruction” is preserved both on the hieratic papyrus “Salle I” and partially on the papyrus “Anastasi VII” from the British Museum. There are excerpts from it on various subjects. For example, the writing board from the Louvre, the Amherst papyrus from the Morgan Library and Museum, the 19th Chester Beatty papyrus from the British Museum, and more than 90 ostracons from the reign of the Ramessid pharaohs.

However, all these historical artifacts are serious documents. And today we will get acquainted with a “document” that is completely frivolous, but also helps to some extent to understand the life of the ancient Egyptians - with the “Turin Satirical-Erotic Papyrus” (or “papyrus No. 55001”), which today is in the Egyptian Museum of Turin.


Ostrakon of the XIX dynasty with a fragment of the Teachings of Kheti. Egyptian Museum, Turin

It was discovered by the first Egyptologist in human history who learned to read hieroglyphs - Jean Francois Champollion, in the 30s of the 1973th century. His attention was first drawn to his animalistic images. But then, upon closer inspection, he was struck by, as he himself stated, the “monstrous obscenity” of his other images. As a result, highly moral European Egyptologists for a long time even refused to study it, which is why copies of this papyrus appeared in print only in XNUMX.

People in the USSR have been familiar with this papyrus for a long time. “Pictures” from it, for example, appeared in print in graphic form back in 1955, but... they only related to the first part of this artifact.


The cat is herding geese. The drawing on the ostracon is clearly satirical. The era of the 19th dynasty. OK. 1120 BC e. Egyptian Museum, Cairo

By the way, how much did Egyptian artists receive for their work back then?

After all, they illustrated not only (and not even so much!) papyrus texts, but... they painted figurines and statues, painted the walls of burial chambers in tombs, painted sarcophagi and... ships, which also (judging by their models from the tombs) could be brightly painted.

We have at our disposal documents about the work and payment of the artist Maanakhtef, who lived in the 12th century BC. Thus, from his contract with the customer, for whom he painted his sarcophagus, he received a bale of cloth, a measure of fruit, a wicker bed and a copper dish. What the corresponding document was drawn up about.

From another document, which was compiled a little later, you can find out that some other artist received in payment for his work: a goat, a bale of cloth, a pair of sandals, two vessels with fat, a wooden bed, a mat, a vessel with paint and something... then from food. That is, the exchange was purely natural back then!


Funerary papyrus of the singer Amon Nani (19th Dynasty, c. 1050 BC), Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

But here is the “Turin Papyrus”... What to do with it? Did someone commission an artist to draw him too? Or did he, of his own free will, “take his soul to it”? Or is this papyrus the fruit of the creation of a joker-artist? Because the drawings on this papyrus are truly absolutely amazing in their content.


Erotic part of papyrus

By the way, the papyrus itself, measuring 2,6 m by 25 cm, does not meet the standards of ordinary scrolls of administrative or religious content. The drawings are made with black paint. Moreover, thematically, the papyrus consists of two sections. The first contains 12 erotic images, but the other, in a certain sense, is actually more interesting; it presents satirical scenes in which, instead of people,... animals are depicted.

As for “eroticism,” here one can see complete realism, which is completely unusual for Egyptian art. Thus, the papyrus depicts men of short stature, with sagging or protruding “beer” bellies, and genitals that are clearly larger than expected. That is, they absolutely do not correspond to Egyptian standards of male beauty. The women are also elderly, and are depicted with bindweed leaves in their hands, as well as lotus flowers. All these were symbols of the goddess Hathor, who in Egypt was the goddess of love, as well as intoxication, motherhood, fertility, fun and... dancing.


Continued…

But if everything is clear with “erotica,” then other images need explanation, and no one still knows how accurate they are.

After all, what do we see here?

The battle of cats and geese. A jackal shepherd with a goat... The cat gives the rat a gift of a goose. The lion and the gazelle are busy playing some kind of board game. Yes, it is clear that animals are depicted here, but only the nameless artist had something completely different in mind, namely: high-ranking people and even, perhaps, the pharaoh himself. That is, the artist used the well-known technique of fabulists who described various animals to ridicule human weaknesses and vices.

In one of the drawings, the artist dressed a donkey in the attire of a nobleman. His tall staff and staff reveal him as an important dignitary. It’s not for nothing that a cat stands in front of him on its hind legs in such a respectful pose. And the bull dragged her to the donkey for punishment.

Think about the hidden meaning of this cartoon. Isn't this a direct allusion to royal justice - a donkey in the role of a judge!

And then there’s just a scene from Krylov’s fable about the quartet. The only musicians here are the donkey, lion, crocodile and monkey - animals well known to the Egyptians. And the instruments they took were well known to them, depicted on frescoes in the palaces and tombs of Egyptian nobles - a harp, a lute, a lyre and a double flute.

There is also a battle scene on this papyrus. It is directly copied from countless paintings of military battles, which the warlike pharaohs of the New Kingdom loved and were so proud of. There is a siege of a fortress, archers, chariots, and furious hand-to-hand combat... Only instead of human warriors, cats and mice fight.

And it is no coincidence, of course, that the mouse king on a chariot harnessed to greyhounds is in the center. He is presented in exactly the same pose as the victorious and all-powerful pharaoh... It is clear that the Egyptians, especially the residents of the capital, could accurately guess what or who the author of this unusual papyrus had in mind, as soon as they looked at it .

Moreover, the courage of the unknown scribe is worthy of surprise. After all, one disrespectful word addressed to the earthly god - Pharaoh, and severe punishment could befall him. And here are whole detailed narratives, albeit without words, but completely understandable to everyone.

However, some consider these drawings to be illustrations of fables. There are other opinions. However, in any case, all these images are of an extremely curious nature and, in addition, also indicate that they were made by the hand of a professional and erudite scribe who had an independent character. It is possible that he lived between the late New Kingdom and the Third Intermediate Period.

In addition, the images of women and the lion on the Turin Papyrus are similar to similar images on the Lady Cheruben Papyrus. That is, at that time he was not the only one who drew like this - it was already a certain manner, characteristic of drawings specifically on papyrus.

Or maybe he drew all this just for fun, without even thinking about anything “like that”. A kind of “papyrus for fun”? Who knows…
107 comments
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  1. -1
    2 March 2024 05: 24
    "the artist Maanakhtef, who lived in the 12th century BC." (VOSH)
    12th century BC? And this is written by a historian?
    1. +4
      2 March 2024 06: 38
      Quote: ee2100
      "the artist Maanakhtef, who lived in the 12th century BC." (VOSH)
      12th century BC? And this is written by a historian?

      It’s very good, dear Alexander, that you visit all my materials on VO. It's just a pity that you comment selectively. We need more often...
      1. +5
        2 March 2024 06: 50
        Quote: kalibr
        "the artist Maanakhtef, who lived in the 12th century BC." (VOSH)
        12th century BC?

        I didn't understand the humor. Probably haven't woken up properly yet.
        The authors of this text are two famous Soviet Egyptologists N. Petrovsky and A. Belov. Scientific edition of academician V. V. Struve. So claims are not accepted... Unless you know more than Struve?
        1. +5
          2 March 2024 10: 34
          Didn't understand the trick of humor?

          And the trick, Vyacheslav Olegovich, is also that the data that N. Petrovsky and A. Belov used at one time, how can I say it, is a little outdated. In the light of recent discoveries in Egyptology, it became clear that Comrade. Maanakhtef was, alas, not an artist, but held a high responsible administrative position as the pharaoh's caretaker - being the Head of the Pharaoh's Double Barn in the south and north," and bearing the title of "the eyes and ears of the House and property of the ruler of Upper and Lower Egypt."
          link: I.A. Stuchevsky "Temple form of the royal economy of Ancient Egypt." pages 4, 45, and 50
          1. +4
            2 March 2024 10: 39
            By the way, Joseph Alexandrovich is a fairly well-known and authoritative Egyptologist not only in our country, but also abroad Yes
          2. +2
            2 March 2024 10: 45
            Quote: Richard
            Comrade Maanakhtef was, alas, not an artist,

            And we have a lot of Ivanovs...
            1. +2
              2 March 2024 15: 46
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, “There are many Ivanovs” in other words: could this be the namesake?
              1. 0
                2 March 2024 17: 08
                Quote: Intercessor
                could this be the namesake?

                Just a common name.
    2. +10
      2 March 2024 10: 16
      This is where you clearly got carried away with your criticism. Apparently they were in a great hurry to nail poor Shpakovsky to the pillory. But, as they say, haste leads to error.
      Unfortunately, the illustration cannot be fully inserted now. “The end of the 1186th - the beginning of the XNUMXth dynasty” is approximately XNUMX, that is, the XNUMXth century BC.
      1. +5
        2 March 2024 10: 32
        As they say, if you hurry, you will make people laugh.

        Good morning, Victor Nikolaevich! hi
        1. +6
          2 March 2024 10: 45
          Quote from Kojote21
          As they say, if you hurry, you will make people laugh.

          Just give free rein to many of our experts: they will devour you without bread and salt...
          1. +5
            2 March 2024 10: 46
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote from Kojote21
            As they say, if you hurry, you will make people laugh.

            Just give free rein to many of our experts: they will devour you without bread and salt...

            That's it!

            Good morning, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Thank you for the article! hi hi
            1. +6
              2 March 2024 10: 50
              Quote from Kojote21
              Thank you

              And you! Always, when I read this, I remember one aphorism: “A genius thinks and creates. An ordinary man brings it to fruition.... uses it and does not thank it.
              — Kozma Prutkov
          2. +6
            2 March 2024 16: 10
            V. Oh, you reminded:
            "Whoever will drown him without salt and onions. THAT one will be strong and brave" (c)
    3. -3
      2 March 2024 15: 34
      12th century BC? And this is written by a historian?
      This is written by a person with a diploma in history.
      1. +4
        2 March 2024 17: 05
        Quote: Aviator_
        12th century BC? And this is written by a historian?
        This is written by a person with a diploma in history.

        Before you assent to the ignorant, read the commentary of the DECEMBER, otherwise you find yourself in bad company! Whoever repeats for .... is the one ....!
      2. +2
        2 March 2024 17: 15
        A diploma is not yet evidence of knowledge.
        Do you know how many wonderful guys died because of the mediocrity of their commanders?
        Approximately 45% of senior command personnel, "random people" in the army
        They have been removed from combat units. Last: 7 months, there is a large rotation. Our company went to the battalion, the previous one drank himself to death, and I led the company
  2. +4
    2 March 2024 05: 24
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    As a child I liked the short book. Lurie "Letter from a Greek Boy".

    It's time to find out about "what's on tonight."
  3. +9
    2 March 2024 05: 34
    Isn't this a direct allusion to royal justice - a donkey in the role of a judge!
    Different peoples perceive the donkey in their own way. In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of the Sun God, and in the USA it is a symbol
    Democratic Party and no one is laughing at it. And in Russia there is a stupid and stubborn animal wink
    1. +5
      2 March 2024 05: 49
      For some reason donkeys are cute. Not only as the inheritance of the middle son. But also brother Goranflo’s companion.
      1. +6
        2 March 2024 05: 51
        Quote from Korsar4
        But also the companion of brother Goranflo
        I prefer Khoja Nasreddin's companion wink
        1. +7
          2 March 2024 05: 54
          And he too.

          And also: “Building a tram is not something you can buy” (c).

          But I never got to meet Shrek’s companion.
          1. +2
            2 March 2024 05: 56
            Quote from Korsar4
            But I never got to meet Shrek’s companion

            In my opinion, this is a cheap Hollywood hack. However, like everything else they have, what they call culture
            1. +5
              2 March 2024 06: 02
              I just can't say anything. I'm probably not trying very hard. But I don’t rule out that I’ll watch it sooner or later.

              As far as I understand, our analogue - the heroic horse Julius - is quite funny. And aphoristic.
              1. +3
                2 March 2024 07: 44
                Quote from Korsar4
                our analogue - the heroic horse Julius - is quite funny
                I looked out of the corner of my eye. The same cheap craft. Soviet cartoons were much more interesting, and educational too. Well, who cares
                1. +5
                  2 March 2024 07: 50
                  There are aphorisms there. And I play my favorite Soviet cartoons for my little daughter - which ones are relevant to the conversation. Moreover, from different decades.
                  1. +3
                    2 March 2024 09: 45
                    Quote from Korsar4
                    I give it to my little daughter myself

                    Have you seen "The Secret of a Distant Island"?
                    1. +2
                      2 March 2024 11: 32
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Quote from Korsar4
                      I give it to my little daughter myself

                      Have you seen "The Secret of a Distant Island"?

                      hi The cartoon is good, about the Polynesians. But in some ways it’s anti-scientific! Well, how can monkeys and leopards get to a small island? And even if they get there, how will they live there for several centuries (I mean the population), what will they eat. It’s clear about the Polynesians; in the event of a population explosion, they looked for other islands on catamarans and trimarans, and simply ate up the remaining surplus population!
                      So, in an adventure and relaxation sense, the cartoon is good, but in a zoogeographical sense, it’s a D in the diary. Just like the joke about the Pakistani rat
                    2. +3
                      2 March 2024 12: 04
                      No.
                      From the last one was “In the thicket of the forest.”

                      The famous: “I’m not a gopher, I’m a badger!”
          2. +5
            2 March 2024 06: 55
            Quote from Korsar4
            “Building a tram is not something you can buy”

            Well, shall we issue eshaks or build a tram? ©
            1. +8
              2 March 2024 07: 01
              They say they built it in Samarkand. And in Tver the rails were dismantled.
              1. +5
                2 March 2024 11: 59
                And in Tver the rails were dismantled.
                Well, in Moscow they completely eliminated trolleybuses as a class. The tram is still running.
                1. +3
                  2 March 2024 12: 05
                  I liked trolleybuses. 58 was almost native. If there was an alternative, I chose the trolleybus.

                  Although for reasonable distances walking wins.
                  1. +4
                    2 March 2024 12: 17
                    I usually used route 24, from pl. New to our CC.
        2. +3
          2 March 2024 10: 35
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Quote from Korsar4
          But also the companion of brother Goranflo
          I prefer Khoja Nasreddin's companion wink

          And to me - as a member of the Bremen Town Musicians! wink hi
          1. +3
            2 March 2024 12: 06
            Yeah. “The donkey is harnessed to the shafts...” (c).
            1. +3
              2 March 2024 13: 14
              Quote from Korsar4
              Yeah. “The donkey is harnessed to the shafts...” (c).

              good

              Good day, Sergey! hi
              1. +1
                2 March 2024 14: 31
                Good afternoon!

                One of my favorite childhood records. I put it in “Rigonda” and listened to it again.
                1. +2
                  2 March 2024 14: 51
                  Quote from Korsar4
                  Good afternoon!

                  One of my favorite childhood records. I put it in “Rigonda” and listened to it again.

                  There is nothing better in the world
                  Why should friends wander around the world... (c)
                  1. +3
                    2 March 2024 14: 52
                    Everyone is good, including the robbers.
                    1. +2
                      2 March 2024 17: 47
                      Quote from Korsar4
                      Everyone is good, including the robbers.

                      And the Ingenious Detective!
                      1. +2
                        2 March 2024 18: 18
                        I already brought this record as a gift to my younger sister from Leningrad.
                      2. +2
                        3 March 2024 09: 15
                        They were all voiced by Oleg Anofriev.
        3. +3
          2 March 2024 14: 45
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Quote from Korsar4
          But also the companion of brother Goranflo
          I prefer Khoja Nasreddin's companion wink

          Hi Mikhail, whoever you hang out with, that's how you'll gain!!!
          Our animation has its own positive donkeys. In addition to Bremensky in a “baseball cap”, I like the donkey Moses from the (unloved by Valery Ryzhov) animated series about heroes!!! Hollywood is taking a break.
      2. +4
        2 March 2024 06: 01
        That's because you didn't deal with them. You'll smash your whole leg against the stupid beast while you're moving it... If it doesn't want to go, you can only start it with a pusher. Even a stick doesn't help...
        1. +4
          2 March 2024 06: 11
          Didn't get close. I do not argue.
          The same goats have an obstinate character. And they are much more typical for our middle zone.
        2. +4
          2 March 2024 06: 37
          Quote: paul3390
          You'll smash your whole leg against a stupid beast before you move
          Have you tried it with affection?
          1. +5
            2 March 2024 11: 47
            In general, throughout its history, humanity has come up with only two methods of stimulation - a carrot in front and a carrot in the back. what It is possible at the same time wink
        3. +11
          2 March 2024 12: 08
          Quote: paul3390
          You'll knock your leg off on a stupid beast before you move.
          So this bastard isn't that stupid.
          Once upon a time there was a border outpost. But she had a problem: the outpost itself was built at one mountain peak, and the helipad at the other. And when a helicopter arrived with supplies, we had to carry a lot of weights up. One day, in the valley, someone gave the border guards a donkey. They brought him to the outpost and involved him in supply processes. While there was no helicopter, the donkey had a heavenly life, but as soon as the helicopter arrived, “at least quit.” And the donkey, seeing the helicopter, began to hide. He came out only when everything had already been moved by the border guards. Then, hearing a helicopter, the border guards began to tie the donkey so that he would not shirk work. The donkey, too, even though he is a donkey, began to hide when he heard the helicopter, and he heard it before the border guards (what ears!). Then the border guards agreed with the helicopter base that they would inform them before departure, and tie the donkey immediately after the message.
          1. +5
            2 March 2024 12: 11
            We were able to launch him only with a running start, hitting his entire body in the ass... The main thing is to force him to take the first step. Then it will go on its own.. Persuading, beating, bribing is useless. The only way. However, I don’t exclude the possibility that we just came across a particularly stubborn and lazy donkey...
            1. +1
              3 March 2024 01: 58
              Quote: paul3390
              We were able to launch him only with a running start, hitting his entire body in the ass... The main thing is to force him to take the first step.

              The orderly's bayonet was immediately re-educated - one type was enough
        4. +1
          2 March 2024 19: 46
          Quote: paul3390
          If it doesn’t want to go, you can only start it with a pusher.
          Carrots on a fishing rod?
    2. +3
      2 March 2024 10: 34
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Isn't this a direct allusion to royal justice - a donkey in the role of a judge!
      Different peoples perceive the donkey in their own way. In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of the Sun God, and in the USA it is a symbol
      Democratic Party and no one is laughing at it. And in Russia there is a stupid and stubborn animal wink

      It seems to me that in Russia they treat him this way because they did not find him a specialization in which he could become famous.
      1. +3
        2 March 2024 11: 19
        Quote from Kojote21
        It seems to me that in Russia they treat him this way

        In Russia the horse is bigger!
    3. +2
      2 March 2024 11: 17
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      .......Different nations perceive the donkey in their own way. In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of the Sun God........

      In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of God Seth, and in the Koran, the meat of a domestic donkey is forbidden to be eaten. In general, ancient symbolism is a very complex topic, and is always part of tradition. hi
      1. +3
        2 March 2024 11: 20
        Quote: Reptiloid
        In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of the God Seth.
        You are confused. God Ra
        1. +2
          2 March 2024 12: 44
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Quote: Reptiloid
          In Ancient Egypt, the donkey was a symbol of the God Seth.
          You are confused. God Ra

          In general, the correspondence between animals and Gods is a slippery thing. For example, there is an image of Horus capturing his enemy Seth, where the latter has a donkey's head... For example, a falcon is a symbol of both Ra and Horus and the evil God Sokar, and the Libyan Ash. The hippopotamus was a symbol of Tauret, the Goddess of Pregnancy, and also of Seth. The position of the crocodile and snake in the Tree of Egypt symbolism is also ambiguous. Something like this...
      2. +7
        2 March 2024 11: 52
        Domestic donkey meat is prohibited for consumption.
        In France they make excellent dry sausage from them Yes .
        1. +1
          3 March 2024 15: 24
          Quote: Bolt Cutter
          Domestic donkey meat is prohibited for consumption.
          In France they make excellent dry sausage from them Yes .

          I didn't know about France! I heard about a scandal in Europe about donkey meat, apparently from Romania, a few years ago. hi
          1. +2
            3 March 2024 15: 30
            scandal in Europe about donkey meat
            In France, there are no scandals - there are a dozen or two varieties of dry sausage on the market and choose 4 for 15 euros.
  4. +4
    2 March 2024 05: 50
    I wonder when did wall folk graffiti appear? For, let’s say, the Roman ruins are simply covered with inscriptions like Lucius - goat, with corresponding drawings. And the top did not spare the same Caesar. Is there something similar in Egypt?
    1. +3
      2 March 2024 05: 53
      Quote: paul3390
      Interesting - when did wall folk graffiti appear?
      There is nothing to write on in Egypt. Except on the pyramid. Something like "Pharaoh Ramses is a fool!" wink wink
      1. +4
        2 March 2024 05: 59
        If there was a desire, there would always be something to write the famous short word on... wink There is a theory that even some Stone Age cave paintings are actually blasphemous for their fellow tribesmen.. laughing
      2. +6
        2 March 2024 06: 35
        There are plenty of fences everywhere, but they have not survived to our time!
        Hello!!!
    2. +1
      2 March 2024 06: 56
      Quote: paul3390
      Is there something similar in Egypt?

      I won’t answer right away. We need to see...
      1. +4
        2 March 2024 11: 48
        There is an ancient Egyptian sketch made in one of the rock chambers near the temple of the great Queen Hatshesput. Some Egyptologists believe that this is sex between the nobleman Senmut (the queen's favorite) and Hatshesput.
    3. +4
      2 March 2024 14: 19
      Interesting - when did wall folk graffiti appear?

      Until recently, the ancient Roman ones were considered the most ancient. However, last year an even older one was found in the Mammisi temple (dating from the 16th dynasty).
  5. +5
    2 March 2024 06: 46
    By the way, how much did Egyptian artists receive for their work back then?

    I know that Egyptian scribes were a privileged class and, according to the Egyptian Table of Ranks, were on the same level as the priests. Probably, the artists who painted sarcophagi had the same status...
  6. +3
    2 March 2024 07: 39
    Thank you for continuing the theme of Egypt and papyrus!
    But, maybe personal perception, the “erotic” fragments are overly prominent.
    1. +3
      2 March 2024 07: 52
      Quote from Fangaro
      "erotic" fragments are excessively convex
      There are even more convex ones
      1. +2
        2 March 2024 08: 36
        Do you have a copy of the Turin Papyrus? A friend asks laughing
        And in the scenes with animals you can see the oldest version of Orwell's Animal Farm
      2. +2
        2 March 2024 12: 03
        In the first frame he looks a lot like a hockey player. Is this what he has instead of a hockey stick?
        1. +2
          2 March 2024 15: 11
          Quote: Aviator_
          Is this what he has instead of a hockey stick?
          Rather, more for visual effect! wink
    2. +1
      2 March 2024 09: 41
      Quote from Fangaro
      But, maybe personal perception, the “erotic” fragments are overly prominent.

      That's what! There will be even more of them in the next article...
  7. +3
    2 March 2024 08: 02
    Quote: Dutchman Michel
    Quote from Fangaro
    "erotic" fragments are excessively convex
    There are even more convex ones


    ))) Actually, I'm talking about the text.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich rarely, not so, usually writes quite politically correct.
    1. +2
      2 March 2024 09: 29
      Quote from Fangaro
      Actually I'm talking about the text
      It is better to see once wink
      1. 0
        2 March 2024 09: 43
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        It is better to see once

        There will be something to see in the next article! Specially selected.
  8. +4
    2 March 2024 10: 36
    But here is the “Turin Papyrus”... What to do with it?

    Just in case, we inform readers that there are two “Turin Papyri” - there is also the “Turin Royal Papyrus”, containing lists of all the mythical and historical persons who reigned in Egypt.
    Well, “based on” the “erotic papyrus”, write an article like “Erotism in Ancient Egyptian Art”, so that everyone knows that nothing human was alien to the ancient Egyptians. The photo shows a sarcophagus from Abydos, dating from the XXVI dynasty. On the lid is Osiris and his wife Isis.
    1. +2
      2 March 2024 10: 43
      Quote: Dekabrist
      "Turin Royal Papyrus"

      I seem to have written to Pavel about the “royal”... But that will be a separate topic.
    2. +1
      2 March 2024 17: 05
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Just in case, inform readers that there are two “Turin Papyri”
      Just in case...there's only one. But he too is waiting for his turn. The Turin prosecutor's office declared one papyrus a fake in 2018.
      https://rg.ru/2018/12/17/papirus-priznali-poddelkoj.html
      1. +2
        2 March 2024 22: 32
        Just in case...there's only one

        Sorry, but the “Papyrus of Artemidorus” that you mention has nothing to do with the two “Turin papyri”, except that it belongs to the Turin Banco di San Paolo.
        1. 0
          3 March 2024 08: 42
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Sorry, but the “Papyrus of Artemidorus” that you mention has nothing to do with the two “Turin papyri”, except that it belongs to the Turin Banco di San Paolo.

          That is, there were three Turin papyri, but there are two left, right?
          1. +1
            3 March 2024 10: 35
            There were two “Turin papyri”, and only two remain. And the papyrus you are talking about is called Papyrus Artemidorus.
  9. +3
    2 March 2024 11: 35
    And it is no coincidence, of course, that the mouse king on a chariot harnessed to greyhounds is in the center. He is presented in exactly the same pose as the victorious and all-powerful pharaoh... It is clear that the Egyptians, especially the residents of the capital, could accurately guess what or who the author of this unusual papyrus had in mind, as soon as they looked at it .

    19th Dynasty...
    Was Ramesses II really involved?)))
  10. +3
    2 March 2024 12: 10
    A kind of “papyrus for fun”?
    In terms of
    At school I was interested in photography, but then my mother took it away
    ?
  11. +4
    2 March 2024 13: 28
    Korsar4 (Sergey) and Aviator_(Sergey), respected comrades of “V.O.”, in the 90s of the 20th century, trams and trolleybuses were killed in Arkhangelsk. Although the tram was the northernmost in the world. As the “Dervish” came to Arkhangelsk, the leaders of the Arkhangelsk port wondered: how to take ships along the shallow and winding Northern Dvina to the berths of the Arkhangelsk-Bakaritsa port area, where during World War I the cargo of the allies was processed. We decided to use the port “Construction No. 1” of the NKVD in Molotovsk (Severodvinsk) and unload some of the ships at the berths of the Arkhangelsk outport of Economy (again as in World War 203). In 1, Economy accepted 1941 ships with Lend-Lease cargo. And to the center of Arkhangelsk and further to the Isakogorka station, how can cargo be transported through Maimaksa, Solombala, the center of Arkhangelsk, did the Dvina rise early in 2? A solution was found - using a tram on the island of Solombala. The temporary railway has not yet been built. (“Papaninskaya”) from Art. Isakogorka through the S. Dvina just north of present-day Novodvinsk and further from Zharovikha to the Kuznechikha branch of the Dvina (now the Arkhangelsk Bypass Road) and further north to Economy. So the Arkhangelsk tram in 1941 was a completely strategic mode of transport... Power engineers now don’t know where to go after 1941:22 and until 07:XNUMX. to use energy: Arkhangelsk and Severodvinsk poultry farms, collective and state farms - killed, electric transport of Arkhangelsk - only on museum stands and in personal photo albums...
    1. +3
      2 March 2024 14: 36
      Unfortunately yes. Not often, but I was in Arkhangelsk.

      Previously there was a saying: “The city of cod, boards and melancholy.” And now there is a problem with sawmilling.

      And on the main street in the morning, a stray pack of dogs got quite a bite.
      1. +2
        2 March 2024 21: 06
        And on the main street in the morning, a stray pack of dogs got quite a bite.
        Sadly. It's time to open a Korean restaurant there, maybe it will help.
        1. +3
          2 March 2024 21: 17
          Yeah. Then, after the business trip, I received a series of injections.

          Stray dogs are no joke. He swore at them loudly and convincingly. Scared me off.

          And sometimes such meetings lead to the most tragic consequences.
          1. +3
            2 March 2024 21: 32
            In the terrible “totalitarian Savets” times, there was a service that eliminated packs of stray dogs and was quite successful. Now there is freedom, even the popular movement of dog hunters is for some reason not welcomed.
            1. +3
              2 March 2024 22: 08
              What surprised me most was that this was the central street of the city - Trinity Avenue.
              True, it is, of course, long.

              And regional cities are still very much alive.

              But this cannot be said about many regional centers.
            2. +3
              3 March 2024 02: 06
              Quote: Aviator_
              In the terrible “totalitarian Savets” times, there was a service that eliminated packs of stray dogs and was quite successful. Now there is freedom, even the popular movement of dog hunters is for some reason not welcomed.

              Because “I feel sorry for the dog!! How dare you, etc.”...
              And under the USSR, in our regional center, hunters shot them and received 1 cartridge per ear + credit for labor participation...
  12. +1
    2 March 2024 17: 02
    The Turin prosecutor's office recognized one papyrus as a fake.
    https://rg.ru/2018/12/17/papirus-priznali-poddelkoj.html
    The prosecutor's office of Turin (Italy) announced the results of an investigation that recognized the valuable papyrus of the Greek geographer Artemidorus of Ephesus as a fake.

    The rest, including the second one from Turin, are waiting their turn hi
    1. +3
      2 March 2024 17: 14
      Quote: Seal
      The rest, including the second one from Turin, are waiting their turn

      Let's see. Nowadays, analysis tools have advanced a lot since 1971...
      1. +3
        2 March 2024 19: 28
        I have read online articles from major newspapers here in Italy and not everyone agrees that the papyrus is a fake. The Turin prosecutor's office listened to the main detractor of this dissertation, Mr. Canfora, and recognized this papyrus as a fake. That is why many experts do not agree with the prosecutor's decision.
    2. +1
      2 March 2024 21: 48
      Quote: Seal
      The Turin prosecutor's office recognized one papyrus as a fake.
      https://rg.ru/2018/12/17/papirus-priznali-poddelkoj.html
      The prosecutor's office of Turin (Italy) announced the results of an investigation that recognized the valuable papyrus of the Greek geographer Artemidorus of Ephesus as a fake.

      The rest, including the second one from Turin, are waiting their turn hi

      I already wrote to you - but you didn’t answer, it’s true: with the amount of knowledge that you have, you need to write an article about papyrus fakes. This will be very interesting for the VO reader.
  13. 0
    2 March 2024 18: 53
    Quote: Intercessor
    A diploma is not yet evidence of knowledge.
    It's true. But it also happens that you have a diploma, and you also have “knowledge” of the subject in which you received the diploma. But here is the subject itself, for example, theology. And the thesis on the topic “Application of the latest methods of mathematical statistics in calculating the number of devils that can fit on the tip of a needle.” laughing
    1. +3
      2 March 2024 22: 35
      And the thesis on the topic "Application of the latest methods of mathematical statistics in calculating the number of devils that can fit on the tip of a needle"

      I wonder if you have ever been with a certified theologian?
  14. -1
    3 March 2024 08: 37
    Quote from: Semovente7534
    That is why many experts do not agree with the prosecutor's decision.
    If only everyone would agree. Experts and historians understand perfectly well where things are heading. And they don’t want to be left without work in the future. wink .
    In general, on the issue of fakes, many “experts”, from among those who previously established the “authenticity” of a fake, are fighting to the last bullet.
    Remember that such experts until recently did not admit that the Golden Tiara, which belonged to the Scythian king Saitaphernes (III century BC), which was acquired by the Louvre in 1896, is a fake. To prove that it was a fake, jeweler Israel Rukhomovsky had to come to Paris and reproduce a fragment of the design of this tiara from memory.
    Would you think about this question - Why are historians and all kinds of experts so willing to recognize a lot of fakes as genuine historical artifacts?
    And why does it take a long, difficult and tedious time for skeptic realists to prove the opposite. Why is that ?
  15. +1
    3 March 2024 08: 41
    Quote: Dekabrist
    I wonder if you have ever been with a certified theologian?

    I didn’t check my diploma, but I shook hands with a man who introduced himself as a Doctor of Theology. Moreover, this was a completely official clergyman, sent to the meeting by the Patriarch himself.
    However, there are others. For example
    https://alexey-osipov.ru/
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 10: 38
      I didn’t check my diploma, but I shook hands with a man who introduced himself as a Doctor of Theology

      And you discussed the issue with him
      Application of the latest methods of mathematical statistics in calculating the number of devils that can fit on the tip of a needle
      ?
  16. 0
    3 March 2024 08: 49
    Quote: kalibr
    I already wrote to you - but you didn’t answer, it’s true: with the amount of knowledge that you have, you need to write an article about papyrus fakes. This will be very interesting for the VO reader.
    What's the point? You and people like you won’t believe it anyway, because I don’t have expert accreditation. And for those who understand even a little about physics and chemistry, it’s already clear that it’s a fake.
    So what is the point for me to waste my time trying to reason with those who don’t understand thermodynamics and don’t give a damn about Boltzmann?
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 10: 27
      Quote: Seal
      So what is the point for me to waste my time trying to reason with those who don’t understand thermodynamics and don’t give a damn about Boltzmann?

      Well, there are others. Do not be afraid. And then, if one papyrus turned out to be a fake, this does not mean that all the other thousands of papyri are fake. After all, if one person, say, is stubborn as a donkey, this does not mean that all the other donkeys are too. Just because one person... does not mean that all people are fools.
  17. -1
    3 March 2024 14: 01
    Quote: kalibr
    And then, if one papyrus turned out to be a fake, this does not mean that all the other thousands of papyri are fake.
    Well, this is because you spit on Boltzmann. laughing
    Quote: kalibr
    After all, if one person, say, is stubborn as a donkey, this does not mean that all the other donkeys are too. Just because one person... does not mean that all people are fools.
    I completely agree. But historians do not yet become historians after a person has studied at a normal technical university, acquired a normal technical specialty and worked in it for at least 10 years. And not those who served in the army and commanded at least a platoon. For now, the leading role in history is played by those who moved to the institute bench from school and stupidly memorized everything that their teachers taught them. Afterwards, admiring his diploma, he begins to growl menacingly, “I’m a historian, here’s my diploma, and who are you to object to me!!!” laughing
    1. +1
      3 March 2024 19: 36
      Quote: Seal
      Afterwards, admiring his diploma, he begins to growl menacingly, “I’m a historian, here’s my diploma, and who are you to object to me!!!”

      What a superficial judgment. The fact is that this happens. As in everything, there are C students and fools. But a diploma is just an indicator that you can do something. This is true after college, after graduate school, and after doctoral studies. What does defending a PhD mean? Why did you become a scientist? Of course not. Only that you have learned something as a researcher. Everything else happens later. If THEN you have scientific articles and monographs published in peer-reviewed publications, if you write textbooks that are republished, then... yes, you have established yourself as a scientist. And if there is none of this and you “rest on your laurels,” then it’s worthless
      such a scientist has a price.
      1. 0
        3 March 2024 23: 42
        Quote: kalibr
        such a scientist is worthless.
        History is not science. That's why there are no scientists in it.
        The problem is that historians cook exclusively in their own environment and therefore reproduce the next generation of historians exactly the same as they themselves are now. And further. A professional in something is, as a rule, a narrow professional. For example, a chemist may know nothing about warfare, music or shipbuilding. But a shipbuilder may know nothing about medicine or military affairs, painting, music, and so on. But for example, a soldier from the infantry may know nothing about naval affairs. But professional historians, not being specialists in anything and not knowing anything from the field of military affairs, metallurgy, chemistry, physics, medicine, music, sculpture, painting, shipbuilding and so on, nevertheless brazenly undertake to explain all this to us. Moreover, they undertake to explain not even the current state of affairs in these areas (here professionals will quickly put them in their place), but how it was there in these industries before, 1000 years ago, 1500 years ago, 2000 years ago, and so on. !!! What is the main problem? Let's say a certain historian wrote a huge professional work on some ancient topic. A military man read it and, from his professional point of view, noted that in terms of the description of ancient military campaigns and battles or the “Tatar-Mongol invasion” (and in winter!!!!), this shtafirka wrote complete nonsense. But over 50 percent of all historical works are descriptions of ancient military campaigns and battles. But since a military man is also not a chemist, not a physicist, not a metallurgist, not a shipbuilder (and a land military man does not understand naval affairs); not a doctor; not an artist... he understandably thought that it was only for him, for the military part, that the historian wrote nonsense. Well, I wrote and wrote that the military has other things to do than poke this historian in the face of his stupidity? Of course, the military man read it... and forgot. At the same time as the military man, I read the work of a historian, let’s say a doctor. And he also noted that from his professional point of view, the historian wrote complete nonsense about ancient medicine. But since the doctor is not a specialist in the military sphere, in painting, physics, chemistry (although he is probably a little in chemistry), shipbuilding, music, and so on, and the doctor has plenty of his own affairs, he did not bother with refuting the work of a professional historian. And in exactly the same way the historian’s work was read by: - ​​chemist; - physicist; - sculptor; - artist; - metallurgist - shipbuilder and so on. Everyone noted that the writing in their area was complete nonsense!!!
      2. +1
        3 March 2024 23: 43
        Ending.
        But since none of them sees the big picture, and the book is full of enthusiastic reviews from the historian’s colleagues - historians like him (herself) - the book is published, children study from it, films are made from it , and after some time, subsequent generations of historians consider that work to be a “document”. Previously and now, a lot of historians enthusiastically describe all possible different military campaigns and battles. Name at least one modern official historian with a higher military education who writes on the topics of “ancient campaigns”? ? We don't have those!!! At best, a military historian describing, for example, Napoleon’s campaign or the Crimean War, will in vain mention Caesar or A. Macedonian in the preface, but only because “ancient history” is not his topic. And without mentioning the “campaigns of the ancients,” it is somehow not customary to describe the campaigns of Napoleon or Skobelev. Well, like during the years of Soviet power, not a single scientific work could be published without mentioning the role of Comrade Stalin, and then simply the role of the CPSU in the issue being considered in the work. Even if the topic is: “On ways to improve the quality of insemination of cows.” Other historians, who have not even built boats with their own hands, enthusiastically describe huge five-decker, or even ten-decker, ancient ships. Name at least one official historian who had a higher education in the field of shipbuilding or navigation? We don't have those. How many historical dissertations and “works” on the topic “ancient military campaigns and conquests” were submitted for review to the Academy of the General Staff? ZERO !!! Historians understand perfectly well that all their “works” need to be discussed exclusively within their own environment. Because if their “works,” for example on the topic of “ancient campaigns and battles,” are officially reviewed by professional military personnel, it will be such a shame!!! Likewise, among historians, all the clearings have long been divided. And all historians cultivate their own clearings exclusively, without interfering with other people’s clearings of their historian neighbors. And from these clearings some of them still have just bread, and some already have bread and butter. Some historians even bread with butter and red caviar. And there are those who also have black caviar. And none of the historians wants to lose their piece of bread. With butter. And caviar.