If the night is against us

148
If the night is against us


In general, I planned this article as a calm addition to “Don’t be torn to pieces by a pack”, because in the process of discussing it a couple of ideas appeared, but on February 14 I made my own changes.



No move


Two weeks have passed since the death of the RK “Ivanovets” and several days have passed since I wrote the article “Do not be torn to pieces by the pack,” and what do we see? Again a massive, and at the same time sudden, night attack under the cover of an air raid, again the ship was unable to move, and again repeated attacks on the hole. There are, of course, differences, important, but not fundamental. How can one be calm here? It's difficult, but you have to.

Once again, the enemy posted video clips from the cameras of the attacking fireships, but there were noticeably fewer angles and cameras involved than there were during the attack on the missile boat. I assume that this is due to the enemy’s desire to deploy Magura BECs capable of sinking a fairly large ship with a very small number, and thereby exerting maximum psychological pressure. I am sure that this is a trick, and the attacking fireships were significantly more than the declared five.

However, numbers are numbers, but from the video it is clear that the first BECs approached at low speed from the shore without the slightest resistance, that at the beginning of the attack the ship had no speed and that the fire ships were targeted and without interference, not counting the shelling from small arms weapons, the bursts from which flashed only once in the frames, exploded at least three times in the same place closer to the stern of the ship. And this is a direct consequence of conclusions that were not drawn at all from previous attacks...

It is clear that Alupka, off the coast of which the BDK was attacked, is much east of the mouth of Donuzlav, where the Ivanovets died, but it is also clear that the western (and southern) part of the Black Sea is weakly (if at all) controlled by the Black Sea fleet Russia. And this means that neither ships nor ships throughout the entire World Cup waters are insured against attacks by unmanned enemy boats (and this enemy is by no means the Navy) with a cruising range of 800 km. Therefore, it is absolutely unclear why the BDK stood at night, without movement and without protection, within obvious reach of the fireships, and even under the supervision of the Global Hawk, which, in our minds, should have been shot down a long time ago. The Houthis for example.

It may seem strange to persistently mention the lack of speed for a large and not very fast ship, with a full speed of only 17,5 knots / 32 km/h, since it’s not difficult to catch up with it, and it will take a very long time to accelerate, but if you think about it, nothing strange.

The fact is that really stealthy in all ranges, with a low silhouette (this is not the same as semi-submersible) BECs, forced to attack a moving target, sharply lose their stealth as they gain speed, thanks to the bow breaker, diverging waves and wake! This means that it will be possible to detect and start shelling fire ships earlier. In addition, re-targeting a moving ship into an already damaged hole will be at least difficult, and this will dramatically increase survivability. What can we say about faster ships?

From here follows an elementary solution - outside points covered by boomnet barriers, overnight mooring of ships should be prohibited!

And even more so, such parking should be prohibited during an air raid warning. If it is impossible to hide behind nets, the proposed course of action may be as follows: following a broken zigzag (but not a regular zigzag!) course along or away from the shore in an arbitrary direction or along a closed route of irregular shape. Maintain combat speed (cruising speed). Of course, the sea must be closely monitored by all available means.

And all this has been known and used since the time of the Great Patriotic War!

Well, that's it, now we can return to what was planned.

How to resist?


Let me remind you that in the article “Don’t be torn to pieces by a flock,” I tried to collect the fastest and most feasible methods and means to counter remote-controlled, stealthy, high-speed unmanned kamikaze boats, in the absence of modern means of detection at night and the lack/ineffectiveness of weapons.

One of the methods is maintaining the speed with the ability to quickly reach the maximum speed, and the means are LED spotlights for the effective use at night of a sighting column that controls the fire of 30-mm machine guns, and FPV-drones for an additional channel of destruction. Also mentioned was the unused possibility of reversible impact on the satellites of the Starlink system, without which the BECs simply would not be able to operate in any way effectively.

And when discussing with jdiver and a little later with Last centurion First, balloons that jammed Starlink subscriber terminals were mentioned, and then tethered multicopters were mentioned as being much more convenient to use. In Russia, civilian models of tethered multicopters have been created and produced, capable of lifting several kilograms of load, from high-definition video cameras to radio signal repeaters, to a height of up to 150 meters and staying there for a significant time, in some cases unlimited.

Not being an expert not only in jamming, but also simply in radio business, I will nevertheless take the liberty of asserting that jamming to prevent the normal operation of the Starlink subscriber terminal from a height of 150 m to an overlap radius of several hundred meters is simply possible due to the interference power and short distance. But this is a costly business and, if there are no ready-made jammers, then it takes some time to implement.

But the second idea is exactly what is needed, can be implemented extremely quickly and from what is available! Namely: shooting radar jamming shells (dipole reflectors) from the standard launchers of shipborne electronic warfare systems, which are on all (I’m sure, without exception) ships, and if suddenly not, then in the bases - of course.

Depending on the vertical pointing angle, clouds of dipoles can be placed either practically above the ship or at a distance, depending on the type, up to 1,5 km, and the duration of action is 5–10 minutes, depending on the weather.

But these clouds will not interfere with the radar, but will interrupt the connection between the satellite and the BEC. The density and dimensions can be adjusted by installing the fuse and the frequency of firing the shells.

It is unknown what algorithm is included in the control system of Ukrainian fireships when the signal is lost, maybe a complete stop, which would be ideal, or maybe continuation of movement in the direction specified before the connection was lost, but even in the worst case, if there is a homing system for the ship via the thermal imaging channel, the task of defending the ship will become much easier!

After all, evasive maneuvers will be inaccessible to the fireship, and it is not a fact that with the characteristic bumpiness there will be no homing failures.

It may be possible to get by by firing shells towards the attacking fireships, but, more likely, you will have to set up interference all around at the first sign of a massive night attack.

Optical and thermal interference is visually denser and placed closer to the ship, but in the absence of photo radar interference, let it be there.

At the same time, due to the low radar signature of boats, the use of artillery radars against them is still ineffective, and clouds of dipoles are unlikely to interfere with the guidance of guns and machine guns through optical channels. Controlling FPV drones in the cloud will likely be impossible.

I wrote this article not for the sake of anything, but solely in the hope that some of the sailors will catch the eye of this text and at least bring some benefit.
148 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +6
    19 February 2024 04: 04
    Please count the words
    “Optical and thermal interference is visually denser and placed closer to the ship, but in the absence of photo radar interference, let it be.” caption to the photo, I apologize for not being able to correctly attach them to the photo.
  2. +4
    19 February 2024 05: 13
    I think and thought that it was time!!!
    It’s time to shoot down all these drones and “pilots” that provide data to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and ideally we need to deprive Ukraine of both the Black Sea coast, and places of storage of finished products (BEC), and places of production...
    What is needed here is effective and comprehensive reconnaissance...(someone is derailing the trains)...
    1. +8
      19 February 2024 06: 54
      Quote: ROSS 42
      and places of storage of finished products (BEC), and places of production...

      I’m almost sure that Ukrainian companies do not produce anything, but ready-made BECs are delivered by ships, even by trucks. Therefore, searching for production sites will not yield anything - most likely.
      1. +2
        19 February 2024 06: 59
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        I'm almost sure that ukra don't produce anything

        I agree...It is somewhat doubtful that they have reached the level of production of electronics of the given parameters. Screwdriver assembly is their role in this segment.
        Even stamping cases requires materials, presses and other equipment.
        Among other things, I have doubts that these BECs are coming from Ukraine, and not from the shores of the “friends” from NATO.
      2. +3
        19 February 2024 11: 22
        What is the most terrible enemy in war? This is predictability of behavior, location, tactics... and the list goes on.

        How do ships operate at the base at night? Probably - motionless, which means - predictable.

        Black Sea Fleet ships, targets of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, must move at night. Preferably not at a linear rate. And move along a pseudo-random course that changes daily.

        This is not a guarantee of invulnerability, but a reduction in the chances of being hit.
        1. -1
          19 February 2024 11: 47
          Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
          Black Sea Fleet ships, targets of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, must move at night. Preferably not at a linear rate. And move along a pseudo-random course that changes daily.

          This is not a guarantee of invulnerability, but a reduction in the chances of being hit.

          And importantly, this countermeasure is available right now!
        2. +6
          19 February 2024 16: 48
          Black Sea Fleet ships, targets of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, must move at night. Preferably not at a linear rate. And move along a pseudo-random course that changes daily.

          All these proposed measures are all private measures that will not change the deplorable situation in the Black Sea Fleet. The main reason for the depressing position of this fleet is that it lost control over the Black Sea and gave up the initiative. If at the beginning of the Northern Military District the fleet was still trying to organize control over ships going to and from Ukraine. Then after the conclusion of the grain deal, he simply avoided it. But with the formal cancellation of the deal, nothing has changed. We don’t know what they are transporting there and from there by sea, we can only guess. If a dozen whole flock of sea drones departs from the coast of Odessa, Nikolaev and goes under its own power for almost three hours to the coast of Crimea (160-200 km), and all of our reconnaissance, not only naval, does not know about this and does not even guess, then what? it says. That someone simply eats bread in vain and receives a salary for nothing. It seems that after the loss of the Black Sea Fleet flagship, we even removed patrol ships and submarines from the coast of Ukraine. Otherwise, how can we explain all this that our ships at night off the coast of Crimea are completely unaware, like blind kittens waiting for BECs to approach them unnoticed and comb their tails and manes. Why do the Americans and the British, thousands of kilometers from their borders, know about our every move in the Crimea and on the Black Sea, but we don’t, right under our noses? Unlike us, they do intelligence work. They have UAVs, reconnaissance aircraft, and satellites flying around the sea and near our coast, tracking us online. What prevents us from doing the same? Where are our Orions, hunters, Altiuses above the Black Sea? Not ready, are they finalizing and testing everything? But at least bottom acoustic sensors and buoys could be installed off the coast, at bases, in roadsteads, in order to promptly learn about the departure to sea, movement and approach of enemy drones to our shores. Is this also an impossible task for our glorious Black Sea Fleet? To restore control over the Black Sea and the stability of the Black Sea Fleet, we first need to organize normal reconnaissance there and return the initiative to our own hands. And all other measures are secondary.
        3. +2
          19 February 2024 22: 39
          Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
          Black Sea Fleet ships, targets of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, must move at night.

          A ship is not a car or even a tank. Just launching the main ones will carry away 60 liters of diesel fuel, and now imagine a dozen NKs “cruising”... So the rear of the naval base will not be able to store any fuel for them!
          - (WHERE? - in the harbor??? Have you all lost your mind, or what!? The water area is not an autobahn or even a highway! What about the radii of circulation, and the inertia? And the reaction time! - you definitely decided with your own hands, right in the base, drown all the NK!!!) - any shipmaster will tell you.
          Therefore, I suggest postponing night walks inside the harbor until better times. When instead of combat units you have pleasure yachts at your disposal, you can even take them from the oligarchs! I don't feel sorry for them.
          At night, NKs should stand without lights at different piers, with a PDSS/PPDO watch on display, with night vision devices, behind booms with closed gates for the passage of ships. And in front of the booms, PPDO and MPK/TSh boats with GAS equipment in the ShP mode should ply. and periodically carry out control grenade launching. You can fire single shots from the RBU, at different, most dangerous bearings. It would be even better if a line of anti-submarine detachments with an anti-submarine weapon would be deployed at sea, and an air patrol even further away.
          Therefore, from a practical point of view and navigation experience, this is unacceptable!
          1. 0
            20 February 2024 04: 25
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            (WHERE? - in the harbor??? Have you all lost your mind, or what!? The water area is not an autobahn or even a highway for you! And the radii of circulation, and the inertia? and the reaction time! - you definitely decided with your own hands drown all the NKs right in the base!!!) - any shipmaster will tell you.

            I understand your indignation, but please be more careful!
            This leads to an elementary solution: outside points covered by boom net barriers Night mooring of ships should be prohibited!

            If it is impossible to hide behind nets the expected course of action could be as follows

            Sorry for using just a couple of phrases to describe the obvious.

            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            And before the booms they must ply boats
            That's it, cruise OUT barriers.
            What about fuel? We've already saved money. Just twice.
          2. 0
            22 February 2024 06: 36
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            Just launching the main ones will carry away 60 liters of diesel fuel

            It's not about the amount of fuel, it's not that much. And in the dubious efficiency and danger of navigation.
            This is why the Global Hawk flies at night and can see well in the darkness - it has the ability to receive radar and infrared images and especially of moving objects.
            But it is possible, for example, to well illuminate the entrance to the harbor with floodlights and thus improve visibility for observers.
    2. +3
      19 February 2024 09: 36
      Yes, and we are FOR it! But this is unrealistic in the current political situation. And even with our leadership. Firstly, this is an attack on a NATO country (and only LADIES can do this, and only with language). Secondly, this can be done , but the bells of those making decisions have long since rotted
  3. +6
    19 February 2024 05: 47
    The author wrote good article with love for the fleet. But, in no way do I want to offend the Author, I still want to note, is it necessary to invest in the fleet if it is either stationed in bases or is sunk when it goes to sea? Wouldn't it be better for the Defense Ministry to pay closer attention to aviation, UAVs and weapons for ground forces? These rusty tin cans did not prove themselves in either the First or Second World Wars. In this case, I do not mean nuclear submarines and coastal guard ships. Large ships are not capable of anything other than demonstrating the flag and advanced technologies. I think that I did not offend the sailors commenting here with my words
    1. +6
      19 February 2024 06: 29
      Of course, you got a little carried away that there is no point in investing in the fleet. Firstly, one ship, especially the BDK, is not a warrior against unmanned attack weapons. Secondly, what do we want if for the last 10 years the emphasis has been on “holding parades and biathlons”, “building parks and churches”. Accordingly, people who knew how to ensure the holding of these “parades” were promoted to command positions.
      1. +1
        19 February 2024 07: 38
        Quote: Vladimir M
        Of course, you got a little carried away that there is no point in investing in the fleet

        I didn't say that. In the conditions of the Northern Military District, where the fleet plays a secondary role, it is better to direct the money to something else that actually fights and brings returns
        1. +1
          19 February 2024 07: 52
          There are objective and subjective reasons for the fact that the fleet now plays a secondary role. And these reasons did not arise now.
        2. 0
          19 February 2024 14: 56
          Unfortunately, we do not have military personnel with the level of strategic foresight equal to Marshal Ustinov or admirals Kuznetsov and Gorshkov. Modern “effective managers” are simply not able to quickly and correctly organize the supply of the army that it really needs in war, and I certainly don’t want to say anything about the lack of effective training programs for conscript soldiers and sergeants. And it all comes from here.
          1. +2
            19 February 2024 22: 25
            Quote: bug120560
            Unfortunately, we do not have military personnel with the level of strategic foresight equal to Marshal Ustinov or admirals Kuznetsov and Gorshkov. Modern “effective managers” are simply not able to quickly and correctly organize the supply of the army that it really needs in war, and I certainly don’t want to say anything about the lack of effective training programs for conscript soldiers and sergeants. And it all comes from here.

            Real managers working in private business are really effective.
            But the rabble that grew up in state grub, in Roscosmos, in the military-industrial complex, in the Moscow Region, is not only ineffective. They're not even managers.
            A rabble with or without shoulder straps.
            With and without positions.
            Just rabble.

            And managers, they never worked on defense.
            Because the smart guy never went into defense after college.
            I wasn’t going to work for pennies.
            1. +1
              20 February 2024 04: 36
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Real managers working in private business are really effective.

              It’s a pity that there are far from 100 percent real managers there. Enough ballast. Purely observation.

              Well, the opposite situation is true, when the slag is also not 100 percent, there are also effective ones - “real” in your words.
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Because the smart guy never went into defense after college.
              I wasn’t going to work for pennies.
              Never - from 90 to now? Is “never” too strong a word for 30 years old?
              However, this is not particularly relevant to the topic of the article.
    2. 0
      19 February 2024 06: 31
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      The author wrote a good article with love for the fleet.

      Thank you!
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      But, in no way do I want to offend the Author, I still want to note, is it necessary to invest in the fleet if it is either stationed in bases or is sunk when it goes to sea?

      Where to go? Is it really possible for a more or less independent country to give up its commercial and fishing fleet? Obviously not. That’s all, someone has to guard it, and the farther the ships go, the farther the ships should be able to go, and this is directly related to their size.
      And this is not counting confrontation with a very likely enemy, with the goal, for example, of disrupting missile launches across the country, and at least helping allies and supplying their foreign bases. So your opinion is wrong, but no offense. hi
      1. +4
        19 February 2024 07: 40
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        the farther ships go, the farther ships should be able to go

        It seems to me that we are now not in the weight category in which the USSR was. The ocean fleet is, alas, too much for us today
        1. +1
          19 February 2024 08: 36
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          It seems to me that we are now not in the weight category in which the USSR was. The ocean fleet is, alas, too much for us today

          The USSR generally began with literal pelvises. Russia has been hit much harder, so far.
          However, this has little to do with the topic of the article. hi
          1. +1
            19 February 2024 09: 51
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            The USSR generally began with literal pelvises

            At that time, the USSR had no time for the fleet to survive. Yes, we strayed from the topic of the article
      2. -2
        20 February 2024 10: 06
        “Is it possible for a more or less independent country to abandon the merchant and fishing fleet? Obviously not. That’s all, someone should protect it.”
        How many ships are currently flying the Panamanian flag? How many pennants, and what kind, are there in the Panama Navy? and how they get by
        1. +1
          20 February 2024 10: 13
          Quote: ZloyKot
          “Is it possible for a more or less independent country to abandon the merchant and fishing fleet? Obviously not. That’s all, someone should protect it.”
          How many ships are currently flying the Panamanian flag? How many pennants, and what kind, are there in the Panama Navy? and how they get by

          And how many ships does Panama really own?
          1. -2
            21 February 2024 09: 19
            "And how many ships does Panama really own?"
            no idea, if they fly a flag, it means they are under jurisdiction. How many ships does the Russian Federation own?
            1. +2
              21 February 2024 10: 18
              Quote: ZloyKot
              no idea, if they fly a flag, it means they are under jurisdiction.?

              What nonsense, it’s the same as considering companies registered in Cyprus to be the property of Cyprus. Well, before you write nonsense, at least ask what a “flag of convenience” is, and how states bear responsibility for ships with such a flag - no way! By the way, ships sail “under” the flag of Mongolia, if you understand what we’re talking about.. .
              1. -2
                21 February 2024 10: 38
                “What is a “flag of convenience”, and how are states responsible for ships with such a flag - no way! By the way, ships sail “under” the flag of Mongolia, if you understand what we’re talking about..”
                sir, I know all this, and perhaps better than you. don't consider yourself the smartest
                "how many pennants, and what kind, are there in the Panama Navy? and how do they get by"
                and they swim, and no one touches them, and does not arrest them, apparently, Panama has a strong navy, judging by your statements
                1. +1
                  21 February 2024 10: 56
                  Quote: ZloyKot
                  sir, I know all this, and perhaps better than you. don't consider yourself the smartest

                  And if you know, then why are you asking moronic questions?
                  Quote: ZloyKot
                  and they swim, and no one touches them, and does not arrest them, apparently, Panama has a strong navy, judging by your statements
                  Once again, an expert on the nuances of registration “under a flag of convenience” - the states of such a flag do not bear any responsibility to shipowners, and accordingly, these ships are not obliged to protect and do not protect. And accordingly, such states do not need the Navy, especially Mongolia.

                  I don’t see an answer to the question - how many ships does Panama actually own? Russia owns about a dozen nuclear icebreakers.
                  1. -1
                    23 February 2024 22: 13
                    “Russia owns about a dozen nuclear icebreakers”
                    Well? do they swim in the red sea, the indian ocean, or the mediterranean? Or is it still in the Arctic, where no one can get close to them?
                    1. +1
                      24 February 2024 04: 44
                      Quote: ZloyKot
                      and they swim, and no one touches them, and does not arrest them, apparently, Panama has a strong navy, judging by your statements



                      At 15:30 p.m., the Houthis fired a missile at the Panamanian-flagged vessel Number 9, which was owned and operated by Bermuda and the United Kingdom. The latest incident occurred at approximately 16:30, when a distress signal was issued by the crew of the Panamanian-flagged vessel Sophie II.



                      Quote: ZloyKot
                      Well? do they swim in the red sea, the indian ocean, or the mediterranean? Or is it still in the Arctic, where no one can get close to them?

                      Excuse me, but there is no desire to discuss with an outright idiot who believes that having nuclear icebreakers, the country does not have many ships of other classes and purposes.
                      1. -2
                        24 February 2024 10: 10
                        "Excuse me, but there is no desire with an outright imbecile"
                        Have you thought carefully, smart, or clever, who do you consider yourself to be, before making such arguments? strictly according to instructions, dispute styles
                        "that having nuclear icebreakers, the country does not have many"
                        where did I say that? has, albeit not a lot, but a little that remains. right now you're going to start singing about tankers and gas carriers, vegetable specialist laughing , these are the same pipes, only floating
                        "At 15:30 Houthis"
                        and the Houthis spread rot on the Amers, the small-shaven people, and their navy, regardless. Got it, Vova?
                      2. +1
                        24 February 2024 12: 33
                        Quote: ZloyKot
                        Got it, Vova

                        With you, sad non-name, everything is clear.
    3. +4
      19 February 2024 07: 21
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      These rusty tin cans did not prove themselves in either the First or Second World Wars.

      I'm far from naval affairs, but I'll put in my 5 cents. These are the realities of modern war and armed conflicts. Just look at the commotion caused by the Houthis in the Red Sea. There is already news that they have underwater drones, so it’s too early to call the fleet “rusty, tin cans,” we’re not the only ones with problems of this kind.
      1. +1
        19 February 2024 07: 42
        Quote: suhorukofal
        Just look at the noise they made through the Houthis in the Red Sea

        Now the war is in Ukraine, not in the Red Sea. There are completely different conditions and different goals.
        1. +2
          19 February 2024 07: 48
          Conditions are always and everywhere different. I repeat, it’s not about the conditions and goals, but about the methods and means of destruction themselves; we’re not the only ones with this problem.
      2. 0
        19 February 2024 10: 24
        Quote: suhorukofal
        Just look at the commotion caused by the Houthis in the Red Sea.

        Which? If you do not take cargo traffic, then the coalition fleet should say “a huge thank you” to the Houthis. They received “exercises as close as possible to combat++++” or, if you prefer, “combat operations----”. We have already practiced everything except anti-aircraft defense and missile attacks on enemy NKs (for now). Exercises (not parades) still need to be carried out and expenses must be borne accordingly, and here even the launches of targets are “at the expense of the receiving party.”
        1. 0
          19 February 2024 10: 43
          And they themselves answered. What a trifle, cargo traffic is only about 10%.
          up to 10% could be lost to global GDP if the Red Sea crisis intensifies

          Let me remind you that this is capitalism and the first thing they consider is money, it’s not just shooting a little. It’s even strange that you have to explain such things. I think it is needless to say that these exercises are somewhat expensive. Well, you rich people won’t understand; losses in billions are such a small thing for you.
          But oh well, to get to the point of the post, these attacks just show the potential of drones, not only the coalition is so smart, they are also testing weapons on it, analyzing the use
          1. -1
            19 February 2024 10: 47
            Quote: suhorukofal
            And they themselves answered. What a trifle, cargo traffic is only about 10%.

            And what? Have commodity prices risen? So it is for us too.
            The only "+" for us is maintaining oil prices at 78-82, yes, but for now... request
            And the fact that a potential enemy gets real combat experience is, of course, bullshit. Give us free rein so we can wow them!..
            1. +1
              19 February 2024 10: 53
              Quote: Adrey
              And what? Have commodity prices risen? So it is for us too.

              I don't even know what to answer to this. Read some articles on this subject, if for you it’s just “prices for goods have risen,” then I can’t even imagine what to answer.
              This is not even taking into account the topic of the post: new types of weapons and that they can be used not only by our fleet.
              1. -1
                19 February 2024 13: 40
                Quote: suhorukofal
                And they themselves answered. What a trifle, cargo traffic is only about 10%.
                up to 10% could be lost to global GDP if the Red Sea crisis intensifies

                Quote: suhorukofal
                I don't even know what to answer to this. Read some articles on this subject if for you it’s just “prices for goods have risen”

                I see you have read and watched a lot on this topic. Would you mind sharing your sources with the audience? And at the same time, indicate how many percent of world GDP has already been lost as a result of almost three months of “hooliganism” by the Houthis in the Red Sea?
                Quote: suhorukofal
                weapons are also tested on it, applications are analyzed

                Certainly. So far the result is near zero. Even the newfangled ballistic anti-ship missiles.
                1. -1
                  19 February 2024 13: 54
                  Everyone is good at clowning around, as I understand it, the only arguments you have are your giggles and hags
                  Here are the links that appear on the first request:
                  https://ria.ru/20231222/poklon-1917335724.html
                  https://lenta.ru/news/2023/12/21/do-10-mirovogo-vvp-kakoy-uscherb-mozhet-nanesti-krizis-v-krasnom-more-globalnoy-i-rossiyskoy-ekonomike/
                  Briefly and offhand, here is a small clipping from Franz Press:
                  Shell decided to suspend the transit last week amid concerns that a successful attack could cause a major spill and jeopardize the safety of the ship's crew, The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday.
                  The company declined to comment on the matter when contacted by AFP.
                  The magazine also reported that in December, a tanker chartered by Shell was attacked by a drone in the Red Sea and pursued by Houthi boats.
                  The oil major's decision came after Britain's BP said in December it would suspend oil transit through the Red Sea.
                  Shipping giant Maersk also noted earlier this month that it would route ships around Africa instead of using the Red Sea and Suez Canal for the foreseeable future.
                  Meanwhile, Qatar's prime minister said liquefied natural gas supplies would be affected by tensions in the region, warning that strikes in Yemen could worsen the crisis.
                  About 12 percent of global trade typically passes through the Bab el-Mandeb Strait, the entrance to the Red Sea between southwest Yemen and Djibouti. But rebel attacks have led to much of the shipping being diverted thousands of miles around Africa.
                  1. +1
                    19 February 2024 14: 46
                    Quote: suhorukofal
                    https://ria.ru/20231222/poklon-1917335724.html
                    https://lenta.ru/news/2023/12/21/do-10-mirovogo-vvp-kakoy-uscherb-mozhet-nanesti-krizis-v-krasnom-more-globalnoy-i-rossiyskoy-ekonomike/

                    The link doesn't open, but I believe you. The publication date of the article is 21/12/23, the note you provided is dated 16/01/24. What has changed in global GDP over these 2-2.5 months? Did you fall hard?
                    Looking at the price of oil, I can say that it has roughly risen from 73 to 82, apparently due to other reasons.
                    Let's finish here, otherwise we will see below, and justifiably, the author of the article attributes the flood hi
                2. +1
                  19 February 2024 14: 28
                  Dear colleagues on the forum, your dispute does not correspond to the topic of the article.
    4. +1
      19 February 2024 22: 57
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Large ships are not capable of anything other than demonstrating the flag and advanced technologies.

      So in the Black Sea Fleet, besides 11356, there are no “large ships.” And those, by and large, are intended for the Mediterranean. But without large ships in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet, you will have nothing to do. A fleet consisting of “coast guard ships” pressed to the shore , is doomed to destruction. It will not be able to withstand large NKs that have reached the point of using CRBMs. It will not be able to displace the SSNs from the ROP, let alone destroy them.
      And then, we are currently not building anything larger than 22350 (I hope so far).
      Therefore, save your maxims for a conversation during a smoke break in a dugout or on a bench near the house... with well-wishers like you.
      Don't be offended. I, like you, in my remark addressed to the sailors, did not want to offend those not involved in the fleet.
      1. -1
        20 February 2024 05: 00
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        But without large ships you will have nothing to do in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet

        What is the task of large ships in the TF and SF? You too should not be offended, but the presence of submarines with nuclear weapons nullifies all the efforts of our enemies. As long as we have nuclear weapons, we don’t need any large surface ships. Well, at least not today.
        1. +2
          20 February 2024 09: 46
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          the presence of submarines with nuclear weapons nullifies all the efforts of our enemies. As long as we have nuclear weapons, we don’t need any large surface ships.

          Without large NKs in the DMZ, our submarines will be pecked out in no time by the anti-submarine aircraft of the adversary. Their combat stability will not be ensured. Therefore, not only missile ships are needed, but aircraft carriers are also needed. Otherwise, you will have to sit in the bases, and the adversary will carry out everything that he outlined in his doctrine “From the sea against the shore.” If you're interested, read it. You will understand a lot about the Anlo-Saxons and their vision of the problems of war and peace.
          1. +1
            20 February 2024 11: 02
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            our submarines will be pecked out in no time by the anti-submarine aircraft of the adversary.

            To “peck” a submarine, it must first be detected. And the crew’s task is precisely to break away from the pursuit after the boat has left the base. It’s not for nothing that all submarine bases are located in the Arctic zone, in order to break away from their pursuers under the ice as soon as possible
            1. +1
              20 February 2024 11: 32
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              to get away from your pursuers under the ice as soon as possible

              Where will anyone wait for them? That's right - numerous multi-purpose nuclear submarines of a potential enemy, which it will no longer be possible to get rid of with the help of our surface ships and anti-submarine aircraft. Great again! Without a surface fleet, the stability of SSBNs is very low.
  4. +6
    19 February 2024 06: 11
    Due to the loss of several ships by the Black Sea Fleet since the beginning of the Northern War, one gets the impression that the command staff of the Black Sea Fleet is too relaxed with a comfortable duty station near the warm sea. For some reason, previous mistakes with attacks on ships and the base in Sevastopol are not taken into account, and if they are taken into account, it is somehow unprofessional and weak. I think that the cup of patience regarding the facts of losses of the Black Sea Fleet has already overflowed in the Russian Defense Ministry. There was information (not official) that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Viktor Sokolov, had been dismissed. Regarding NATO reconnaissance aircraft and UAVs, the issue is very sensitive. They calmly carry out their activities without violating the borders of the Russian Federation, incl. and on a tip from Ukrainian BECs and UAVs. Here you either adopt radical methods, or come to terms with the situation and take it for granted. But this is up to the country's leadership to decide.
    1. +1
      19 February 2024 06: 35
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Regarding NATO reconnaissance aircraft and UAVs, the issue is very sensitive. They calmly carry out their activities without violating the borders of the Russian Federation, incl. and on a tip from Ukrainian BECs and UAVs.

      It would be good without disturbing, there are still possible options over neutral waters, but they hang near the territorial waters of NATO countries, dumping them in the “house” at the slightest threat.
    2. -2
      19 February 2024 22: 26
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Due to the loss of several ships by the Black Sea Fleet since the beginning of the Northern War, one gets the impression that the command staff of the Black Sea Fleet is too relaxed with a comfortable duty station near the warm sea. For some reason, previous mistakes with attacks on ships and the base in Sevastopol are not taken into account, and if they are taken into account, it is somehow unprofessional and weak. I think that the cup of patience regarding the facts of losses of the Black Sea Fleet has already overflowed in the Russian Defense Ministry. There was information (not official) that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Viktor Sokolov, had been dismissed. Regarding NATO reconnaissance aircraft and UAVs, the issue is very sensitive. They calmly carry out their activities without violating the borders of the Russian Federation, incl. and on a tip from Ukrainian BECs and UAVs. Here you either adopt radical methods, or come to terms with the situation and take it for granted. But this is up to the country's leadership to decide.

      Several?
      20 ships lost.
      20 ...
      Look closely at the losses.
      Recount.
      What's left there?
  5. +2
    19 February 2024 08: 50
    I wonder why the Houthis, so beloved by the local public, have not sunk anything until now. Despite drones, missiles and BEC? After all, they are such skillful warriors, and against them there are only mattress covers and Europeans in diapers.
    PS This is sarcasm, if anything. But I would like to see an article with an analysis of actions on this topic.
    1. +5
      19 February 2024 08: 56
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      I wonder why the Houthis, so beloved by the local public, have not sunk anything until now. Despite drones, missiles and BEC? After all, they are such skillful warriors, and against them there are only mattress covers and Europeans in diapers.

      Because they are much worse with target designation and the ability to control drones, unlike the Hikhlovs, and their opponents are much better with the same target designation, echeloning and simply weapons, due to the fact that they did not abandon the fleet, unlike us. crying
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      But I would like to see an article with an analysis of actions on this topic.
      For me personally, there is very little data, pure guesswork. hi
      1. 0
        19 February 2024 10: 32
        I would seriously consider the option that the Houthis are not going to really sink anything, as well as the fact that the coalition is not going to bomb anything serious from the Houthis.
        This whole movement is needed to put financial pressure on Israel and it is bearing fruit.
        1. +1
          19 February 2024 10: 50
          Quote: nikolaevskiy78
          I would seriously consider the option that the Houthis are not going to really sink anything, as well as the fact that the coalition is not going to bomb anything serious from the Houthis.
          This whole movement is needed to put financial pressure on Israel and it is bearing fruit.

          This means that the Houthis have perfectly mastered the strategy of indirect action. good
          However, this does not concern the topic of the article.
          1. 0
            19 February 2024 11: 18
            Not related to the topic, but in the comments you comment on the Houthis. However, it’s not your business, it doesn’t concern you. Let him touch only what he touches, and let him not touch what he doesn’t touch. Amen
            1. 0
              19 February 2024 11: 45
              Quote: nikolaevskiy78
              Not related to the topic, but in the comments you comment on the Houthis. However, it’s not your business, it doesn’t concern you. Let him touch only what he touches, and let him not touch what he doesn’t touch. Amen

              And hallelujah! And in the article I envied the Houthis’ clarity a little, not without this.
              1. +1
                19 February 2024 11: 48
                Ok, the main thing is not to touch the untouchable, otherwise the untouchable will become touchable untouchable. Okay, let's do without the Houthis))
        2. +1
          19 February 2024 14: 00
          Hello Mikhail! hi
          Quote: nikolaevskiy78
          This whole movement is needed to put financial pressure on Israel and it is bearing fruit.

          Put Europe instead of Israel and you will have a much more interesting picture of what is happening both near the Suez Canal and at the mouth of the Red Sea! wink
    2. +1
      19 February 2024 14: 21
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      I wonder why the Houthis, so beloved by the local public, have not sunk anything until now.

      Arab media: British bulk carrier damaged by Houthi shelling sank
  6. 0
    19 February 2024 08: 51
    Well, to be honest, the fleet in the Northern Military District has not shown itself to be very good, to put it mildly, with the exception of the Marine Corps, which takes part in land battles. And I don’t mean the personnel, who, as always, not thanks to, but in spite of, show courage and heroism. The problem is that the ships turned out to be vulnerable, and vulnerable to at least several types of threats, and sloppiness. The first bells were already at the beginning of the Northern Military District, after the death of the flagship, it was already a bell. And ships are in dire need of protection from UAVs, from unmanned torpedoes and missiles, and unfortunately, protection was needed yesterday...
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 08: 57
      Quote from turembo
      And ships are in dire need of protection from UAVs, from unmanned torpedoes and missiles, and unfortunately, protection was needed yesterday...

      The article outlines a couple of methods.
      1. -1
        19 February 2024 08: 59
        And this is good, the problem is not being hushed up, there are proposals
        1. +1
          19 February 2024 09: 00
          Quote from turembo
          And this is good, the problem is not being hushed up, there are proposals

          It's Among Us drinks is not kept silent, in the naval environment it seems to be deaf...
      2. -1
        19 February 2024 22: 29
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Quote from turembo
        And ships are in dire need of protection from UAVs, from unmanned torpedoes and missiles, and unfortunately, protection was needed yesterday...

        The article outlines a couple of methods.

        I can easily give you an example of how I can direct the BEC even in the case of Starlink’s 1000 meter dead zone...
        1. 0
          20 February 2024 04: 13
          Quote: SovAr238A
          I can easily give you an example of how I can direct the BEC even in the case of Starlink’s 1000 meter dead zone...

          I always welcome logically/technically sound counterarguments! If only they were not reduced to assumptions that are difficult to implement.
    2. +2
      19 February 2024 09: 21
      Quote from turembo
      Well, to be honest, the fleet in the Northern Military District has so far shown itself, to put it mildly, not very well
      There is such a version that since the times of the USSR, the leaders sent their underage children to the Black Sea Fleet in order to make a career and soak up the warm sea. So, looking at the results of the Black Sea Fleet, this doesn’t seem so crazy hi
      1. +2
        19 February 2024 14: 03
        Quote: Stirbjorn
        the top people sent their undergrowth to make a career in the warm sea

        Who exactly? Names to the studio, please!
  7. -1
    19 February 2024 09: 04
    What does night and day have to do with it? Why the hell keep big ships in Crimea? Was Moscow not enough? Using the BDK as a transport is a great idea; a bridge and a land corridor are not enough? Here the admirals need to be judged. The World Cup is a puddle in which the maximum is a border guard boat to fight poachers. It’s like with the Airborne Forces: the most senseless troops. They teach you to jump from an airplane, knowing that air defense will not allow you to even get close to the landing site. They waste a lot of money and use them as infantry. The same is with the Marines, there will be no amphibious landings, at most, the deployment of saboteurs and even then is unlikely.
    1. -1
      19 February 2024 09: 31
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      What does night and day have to do with it? Why the hell keep big ships in Crimea? Was Moscow not enough? Using the BDK as a transport is a great idea; a bridge and a land corridor are not enough? Here the admirals need to be judged. The World Cup is a puddle in which the maximum is a border guard boat to fight poachers. It’s like with the Airborne Forces: the most senseless troops. They teach you to jump from an airplane, knowing that air defense will not allow you to even get close to the landing site. They waste a lot of money and use them as infantry. The same is with the Marines, there will be no amphibious landings, at most, the deployment of saboteurs and even then is unlikely.

      Not only were BDKs actively used, and possibly being used to supply our forces in Syria, but what about other ships?
      But in general, your comment does not correspond well to the topic of the article.
    2. -1
      19 February 2024 12: 04
      What does night and day have to do with it? Why the hell keep big ships in Crimea? Was Moscow not enough? Using the BDK as a transport is a great idea; a bridge and a land corridor are not enough? Here the admirals need to be judged. The World Cup is a puddle in which the maximum is a border guard boat to fight poachers.


      The Black Sea is a closed water area with an area of ​​440 thousand square meters. km (the world's oceans are 361 million sq. km) without the possibility of reaching at least the Mediterranean Sea in the event of war, either legally (Montreux Convention) or physically (the British attempt in 1915 to break through the strait failed).
      After the return of Crimea to Russia, coastal missile systems are sweeping the entire Black Sea. A warship is more expensive and vulnerable than land weapons; keeping ships where there is no way to realize an advantage - strategic mobility can only be explained by the GDP’s passion for parades and the desire of the naval leadership to retain command positions - in fact, in Russia, due to its geographical location, there are only two fleets - the Northern and The Pacific Fleet, the former fleet, sat in the Marquis Puddle in the last war until the end of 1944, and there is no need to talk about the Black Sea Fleet today.

      The only way to save large ships is to transfer them from behind the Crimean Bridge - the most guarded strategic object, and after the completion of the Northern Military District, liquidate the Black Sea Fleet and transfer the ships to other fleets.
      1. +1
        19 February 2024 14: 34
        Quote: Ivan Seversky
        The only way to save large ships is to transfer them from behind the Crimean Bridge - the most guarded strategic object, and after the completion of the Northern Military District, liquidate the Black Sea Fleet and transfer the ships to other fleets.

        And then wonder why unknown submarines sink our ships as they please, whoever wants to land on the coast, and who knows who launched missiles from beyond the horizon, hitting coastal cities? Because the “solution” proposed to you leaves no other options...
        1. 0
          19 February 2024 15: 08
          And then wonder why unknown submarines sink our ships as they please, whoever wants to land on the coast, and who knows who launched missiles from beyond the horizon, hitting coastal cities? Because the “solution” proposed to you leaves no other options...


          Ukraine has no submarines or missile boats; the rest of the Ukrainian fleet was destroyed in the first month. Keep 25 thousand Black Sea Fleet personnel to fight a couple of Budanov’s boats that landed in Crimea and were destroyed? Calibers can be launched from ships from the Kerch Strait, and the army can be strengthened with the freed-up personnel, as in 1854.
          1. +1
            19 February 2024 15: 24
            Quote: Ivan Seversky
            Ukraine has no submarines or missile boats; the rest of the Ukrainian fleet was destroyed in the first month. Keep 25 thousand Black Sea Fleet personnel to fight a couple of Budanov’s boats that landed in Crimea and were destroyed?

            Those. Do you think the Northern Military District will put an end to not only the outskirts but also the Black Sea NATO forces? However.
            Quote: Ivan Seversky
            and after the completion of the Northern Military District, liquidate the Black Sea Fleet and transfer the ships to other fleets.
  8. +1
    19 February 2024 09: 48
    I'll throw my 5 cents into the discussion of the topic. Not for the sake of “fucking”, maybe for the benefit. It’s still a shame for the state, even without quotation marks.
    Dear author, all you propose is an inner circle of defense, and wars, as a rule, are not won by defense alone request .
    I’ll start with the disadvantages that (it seems to me) are in your proposals:
    1. LED spotlights - good, of course, but what didn’t you like about the standard ones? Separately, the searchlight operator (whether he will find or not find the target is a question), and the gunner on the sight separately implies interaction and communication between them. May have problems. It’s not easier to install and shoot a thermal imaging sight instead of an ancient ring sight (or together) (even if it’s a good hunting sight, detection of a large target will be 2+ km).
    2. Tethered means of detecting and installing jamming - economically, but will negatively affect the speed and maneuverability of the ship, and this is undoubtedly a very important means of defense, which you yourself agree with. A slight glitch in the system (and this is easy for us) and the ship will “pull” the drone out of the sky during the maneuver. A sufficiently large balloon will be a serious obstacle to air defense during an air raid raid. As if their missiles would not arrive.
    3. Dipole reflectors - it is not a fact that they will affect the operation of the Starlink, but if they do, then they will therefore “hamper” the operation of their own electronic warfare, if one is used.

    The day before yesterday there was an article here with suggestions on this topic, so I’ll repeat it:
    1. "Orlan" tested and mastered by industry with ejection launch (can be welded onto any ship larger than "Grachenka"), landing in a net at the stern (two light, foldable booms). Reconnaissance and detection within a radius of 30-40 km from the ship (where, by the way, the BEC must still go at cruising speed and not in sneaking mode and therefore more noticeable).
    2. Weapons in the form of mass-produced “Lancets” or FVP drones capable of reaching the target area scouted by “Orlan” and independently carrying out additional reconnaissance and attacking the target.
    For everything there is a maximum of 4 operators on the ship.
    This, of course, does not exclude close-in defense in any way, but it allows you to move the radius of combat operations directly away from the target ship, to work proactively and in attack. hi
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 10: 42
      Quote: Adrey
      Dear author, all you propose is an inner circle of defense, and wars, as a rule, are not won by defense alone
      Absolutely true, but this is because I propose solutions that are as quick as possible to implement, and some only by the will of the ship’s commander!

      Quote: Adrey
      1. LED spotlights - good, of course, but what didn’t you like about the standard ones? Separately, the searchlight operator (whether he will find or not find the target is a question), and the gunner on the sight separately implies interaction and communication between them. May have problems. It’s not easier to install and shoot a thermal imaging sight instead of an ancient ring sight (or together) (even if it’s a good hunting sight, detection of a large target will be 2+ km).
      Standard ones, compared to LED spotlights, are weaker and more power-hungry. Interconnection has been ensured since war times by a “talking hat”))) - a headset, no problem. As for the sight, I’m not against it, but I’m afraid it’s beyond the capabilities of the Black Sea Fleet command for a number of reasons. The only thing is that a specific thermal imager may be less effective than a good night vision device, due to the complete electric movement of the BECs.

      Quote: Adrey
      Tethered means of detecting and installing jamming are economical, but will negatively affect the speed and maneuverability of the ship, and this is undoubtedly a very important means of defense, which you yourself agree with. A slight glitch in the system (and this is easy for us) and the ship will “pull” the drone out of the sky during the maneuver. A sufficiently large balloon will be a serious obstacle to air defense during an air raid raid. As if their missiles would not arrive.
      Balloons have already been rejected and are not discussed, but with tethered drones you are completely wrong. The fact is that even civilian drones are capable of delivering up to 65 km/h, which means they won’t limit the speed of a ship, even a high-speed one, the maneuverability of a drone even weighing hundreds of kg is many times higher than that of a multi-hundred-ton ship, which means there is no limitation here either. Well, a break in the cable channel, if it happens, will only lead to the return of the drone to the ship, because... drones are equipped with batteries for such an eventuality.
      Quote: Adrey
      Dipole reflectors are not a fact that they will affect the operation of the Starlink, but if they do, then they will therefore “hamper” the operation of their own electronic warfare if one is used.

      The fact is that they will influence. Dipole clouds, when placed in a timely manner, are able to completely disrupt the guidance of anti-ship missiles from the ARLGSN to the ship, and then the signal power and range and information content of the signal are not comparable with the signals of the Starlink system. And what will affect the operation of electronic warfare, well, this electronic warfare does not yet exist, and whether it will happen is not a fact. And there are shells with dipoles and launchers for them, right now.


      Quote: Adrey
      1. "Orlan" tested and mastered by industry with ejection launch (can be welded onto any ship larger than "Grachenka"), landing in a net at the stern (two light, foldable booms). Reconnaissance and detection within a radius of 30-40 km from the ship (where, by the way, the BEC must still go at cruising speed and not in sneaking mode and therefore more noticeable).
      This is a sound proposal, although not without its downsides. The only question is the implementation time! Because on the RK, MRK and MPK there is not much space on the deck even for catapults, not to mention arrows with nets. All this requires time for design and at least a minimum time for testing the launch and, more importantly, a trouble-free landing. By the way, tethered drones are fully equipped with high-definition cameras, probably with night channels.
      Quote: Adrey
      For everything there is a maximum of 4 operators on the ship.
      This is very little, because only at least two Orlans are needed for round-the-clock duty, and that’s two crews. Plus attack drones. But I repeat, I’m not against it - it’s just a factor of time, and in the case of the Black Sea Fleet, also the will and mind of the command.
      1. +1
        19 February 2024 11: 05
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The only thing is that a specific thermal imager may be less effective than a good night vision device, due to the complete electric movement of the BECs.

        Yes, the target will not glow brightly in the “greenhouse”, but the silhouette and wake will be visible. In short, you need to check.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Because on the RK, MRK and MPK there is not much space on the deck even for catapults,

        They are quite light and small in size. You could even consider a removable option.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        not to mention arrows with nets.

        On board at the stern, similar to early shots for anti-torpedo nets.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        and with tethered drones you are completely wrong.

        Maybe. But if you think about the future (we won’t be fighting with Ukraine alone in our lives), then a large (and it is a large) tethered drone for enemy detection radars will be like a “beacon in the night”, accurately indicating the location of the carrier ship.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        This is very little, because only at least two Orlans are needed for round-the-clock duty

        It is controlled by one operator. The rest, when alerted, can control waves of attacking drones. 3-4 in the wave, the rest on approach on the atopilot.
        1. 0
          19 February 2024 13: 57
          Quote: Adrey
          On board at the stern, similar to early shots for anti-torpedo nets.

          No, not really an option, because either take the UAV on your feet, or the accident rate will be high. If I understand correctly what you are proposing to receive from the board.
          Quote: Adrey
          But if you think about the future (we won’t be fighting with Ukraine alone in our lives), then a large (and it is a large) tethered drone for enemy detection radars will be like a “beacon in the night”, accurately indicating the location of the carrier ship.
          Not at all, I wrote about a mass of hundreds of kg for clarity; such drones do not all reach ten kg. So, even without measures to reduce radar visibility, the ship will be detected much earlier than the drone. A tethered drone is a very promising thing for ships.

          Quote: Adrey
          It is controlled by one operator. The rest, when alerted, can control waves of attacking drones. 3-4 in the wave, the rest on approach on the atopilot.
          Well, let’s say, but FPV drones have their own specifics, noticeably different from winged ones, and even more so from winged and reconnaissance UAVs.
          1. +1
            19 February 2024 15: 28
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            No, not really an option, because either take the UAV on your feet, or the accident rate will be high. If I understand correctly what you are proposing to receive from the board.

            No, we misunderstood. Place on the stern side at gunwale level. In the stowed position along the side at gunwale level. To receive a UAV, lift it vertically upward, catch the UAV above the poop deck, and enter the UAV from the stern in the direction of the ship's movement.
          2. +2
            19 February 2024 15: 38
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            but FPV drones have their own specifics, noticeably different from winged ones,

            These ones really have. How about the Lancets? They don’t seem to be controlled with glasses, and the launchers shouldn’t be very large.
            1. 0
              19 February 2024 16: 50
              Quote: Adrey
              Place on the stern side at gunwale level. In the stowed position along the side at gunwale level. To receive a UAV, lift it vertically upward, catch the UAV above the poop deck, and enter the UAV from the stern in the direction of the ship's movement.

              Now I understand, well, the vertical network looks unsafe for a UAV, it will fall onto the deck, which is a bit complicated.

              Quote: Adrey
              These ones really have. How about the Lancets? They don’t seem to be controlled with glasses, and the launchers shouldn’t be very large.
              Maybe, but the FPV drone is still more maneuverable, especially considering how the BECs loop around. At least they would be accepted here...
              1. +1
                19 February 2024 16: 54
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Now I understand, well, the vertical network looks unsafe for a UAV, it will fall onto the deck, which is a bit complicated.

                It won't fall. Booms at an angle of 75-60* in the direction of receiving the UAV, a net with a formed “bag”. Admission to the “matnya seine” will work out.
              2. +1
                19 February 2024 16: 57
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                especially considering how BECs loop around.

                In this section (20-30 km from the target) they are still moving without maneuvering. They lack detection of air threats.
                1. 0
                  19 February 2024 17: 43
                  Quote: Adrey
                  It won't fall. Booms at an angle of 75-60* in the direction of receiving the UAV, a net with a formed “bag”. Admission to the “matnya seine” will work out.

                  Got it. If there is room, then a working reception! hi
                  Quote: Adrey
                  In this section (20-30 km from the target) they are still moving without maneuvering. They lack detection of air threats.
                  I don’t know here, you probably saw the footage when our Reapers, it seems, were filled with kerosene. So then the planes were reliably tracked by the camera. "Magur" has a similar camera, obviously with a couple of degrees of freedom. But maybe I'm complicating things, I won't persist. hi
                  1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        19 February 2024 11: 14
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        All this requires time for design and at least a minimum time for testing the launch and, more importantly, a trouble-free landing.

        It's true. If we carry out R&D and development in “peacetime” mode, then we will definitely be left without a fleet. And you look not only Black Sea...
  9. +1
    19 February 2024 10: 59
    About 10 years ago they wrote that each of our ships will have a drone, first on those ships that go to sea, and then on all the others. Where are they?
    Where are the thermal imagers and night sights on ships? According to military correspondents, Admiral Sokolov prohibited the installation of additional equipment on ships. What is this called anyway? And who ordered the ship to go out into the raid without night sights and stand motionless? What kind of cunning move is this? And especially the ship "Caesar Kunikov", named after the Marine commander who died on February 14? Some will say it’s a coincidence, while others will think that there was some betrayal.
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 11: 07
      Quote: glory1974
      According to military correspondents, Admiral Sokolov prohibited the installation of additional equipment on ships.

      That’s why I wrote this and the previous article, in which there are at least three ways to quickly stop the problem with BECs without at all touching not only the design, but even the staffing schedule of the ship’s crew.
      1. -2
        19 February 2024 11: 33
        quickly resolve the problem with BECs without at all touching not only the design, but even the staffing schedule of the ship’s crew.

        So Sokolov apparently tried to deal with the problem. The result is known.
        No dipole reflectors block the satellite communication signal, especially data transmission at high speeds. The speed will decrease for a short time, and not for all backs.
        It is necessary to carry out a complex of organizational and technical measures.
        And additionally place shooters along the side, and install machine guns and night sights. And shoot with dipoles, you’re going to drown anyway, so maybe we’ll finally reduce the transmission speed. And we need to install additional bomb launchers, and in general everything that is available. If necessary, place 10 machine guns along the side, or more, but achieve the result.
        Install civilian hydroacoustic stations, fishing echo sounders, or at least something that will help detect the target in time on all ships.
        Patrol the coastal area using a UAV. If detected, raise the ORLAN with laser illumination into the air to adjust the Krasnopoli guided missiles. Place one gun on the shore with a reserve of Krasnopoli to cover the ships.
        Call out to residents of coastal cities to go out to sea on their yachts and motor boats for patrol, organize watch in the water area and alert communications.
        1. -2
          19 February 2024 13: 45
          Quote: glory1974
          So Sokolov apparently tried to deal with the problem. The result is known.
          Something even with maintaining speed at night, the most basic technique, this is not visible. This means your statement that Sokolov somehow fought is false.

          Quote: glory1974
          fishing echo sounders, at least something that will help detect the target in time.

          How can an echo sounder, even a super-military one, help in detecting noise?

          Quote: glory1974
          Place one gun on the shore with a reserve of Krasnopols to cover the ships.
          One gun where? On beach? Which bank, left, right, Russian, Turkish? Sorry, but even if you set a gun at 20 km, what to do at a distance of 40 km from the coast, eh?

          Quote: glory1974
          Call out to residents of coastal cities to go out to sea on their yachts and motor boats for patrol, organize watch in the water area and alert communications.
          And what? And whoever doesn’t go, should he be forced? And who will go and arm him with what? If they were afraid to arm the self-defense forces with machine guns in the Belgorod region.
          Sorry, but a set of good wishes, I’m not against them, by the way, mixed with nonsense - this is not “a set of organizational and technical measures.”


          And finally, because it’s important, how did you substantiate this statement?
          Quote: glory1974
          No dipole reflectors block the satellite communication signal, especially data transmission at high speeds. The speed will decrease for a short time, and not for all backs.

          Dipoles dampen the radar pulse, which is noticeably more powerful, and primitive, at shorter distances, but here it is a high-speed, but weak signal, and also requiring precise guidance.
          1. +1
            19 February 2024 16: 38
            How can an echo sounder, even a super-military one, help in detecting noise?

            An echo sounder, also a type of sonar, detects individual fish, not like unmanned boats.
            And noise detection is the operation of the sonar in passive mode without the use of sound or ultrasonic radiation.
            1. 0
              19 February 2024 17: 38
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              An echo sounder, also a type of sonar, detects individual fish, not like unmanned boats.

              When an impulse is given! And even if he can detect the noise of the BEC propulsion at a reasonable distance, which still needs to be identified and classified, then who will be on duty with him, the fisherman?
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              And noise detection is the operation of the sonar in passive mode without the use of sound or ultrasonic radiation.
              But no, this is the work of a passive hydroacoustic station. With a sonar - this is already a complex. And echo sounders are not included in such complexes.
              The echo sounder does not beat with the theme of timely detection of fire ships.
          2. 0
            20 February 2024 09: 08
            the assertion that Sokolov somehow fought is false.

            I tried to convey the idea that if you do nothing, there will be no result. Similar to your proposals, do not change anything on the ships, neither the staff nor the weapons.
            How can an echo sounder, even a super-military one, help in detecting noise?

            An echo sounder detects not noise, but objects using echolocation. The same as radar, only in the range of sound waves. He can see fish hundreds of meters away. It will detect a backing several hundred meters away, determine the distance, course, that’s all you need for shooting.
            One gun where? On beach? And what a shore

            All attacks on ships were not on the open sea, but near the coastline. The large landing craft "Kunikov" was 2 km from the shore. "Ivanovets" no more than 5 km. "Olenegorsky miner" 5 km.
            Place the gun on the shore near the base, and it will cover up to 25 km from the coast. Place at least a gun battery near our main bases.
            And what? And whoever doesn’t go, should he be forced? And who will go and arm him with what? If they were afraid to arm the self-defense forces with machine guns in the Belgorod region.
            Sorry, but it’s a bunch of good wishes, I’m not against them, by the way, mixed with nonsense

            In the same way, our admirals do not know history and do not trust their fellow citizens. And in the United States in 1941, during the Battle of the Atlantic, they were faced with a shortage of anti-aircraft ships, and turned to people for help. Thousands responded, went out into the ocean on patrol, discovered fascist boats and they radioed to the coast guard. Ernest Hemiguay also went out on his boat, do you know that one?
            Dipoles dampen the radar pulse, which is noticeably more powerful, and primitive, at shorter distances, but here it is a high-speed, but weak signal, and also requiring precise guidance.

            The dipole does not suppress the radar signal, but produces a large cloud of illumination in which the target is lost. The satellite communication signal is broadband and can only be suppressed by targeted interference. That’s why they travel with a “nuclear suitcase” and are not afraid that it will be suppressed.
            1. 0
              20 February 2024 10: 09
              Quote: glory1974
              I tried to convey the idea that if you do nothing, there will be no result. Similar to your proposals, do not change anything on the ships, neither the staff nor the weapons.
              I am writing about the fastest possible measures that can literally be used now, even with the current leadership of the Black Sea Fleet...

              Quote: glory1974
              An echo sounder detects not noise, but objects using echolocation. The same as radar, only in the range of sound waves. He can see fish hundreds of meters away. It will detect a backing several hundred meters away, determine the distance, course, that’s all you need for shooting.
              Sorry, but you missed a simple thing - the echo sounder works in depth, not in width, and BeKs - they float on top. And they detect surface targets using noise direction finding. An elementary thing. Not to mention that “hundreds of meters away” is too close.

              Quote: glory1974
              All attacks on ships were not on the open sea, but near the coastline. The large landing craft "Kunikov" was 2 km from the shore. "Ivanovets" no more than 5 km. "Olenegorsky miner" 5 km.
              Why such confidence? It was repeatedly reported that attacks on ships were repelled at sea. It’s just that the attacks weren’t massive. But all three cases occurred when the ships were idle.

              Quote: glory1974
              Place the gun on the shore near the base, and it will cover up to 25 km from the coast. Place at least a gun battery near our main bases.
              That is, you are not aware of such a small detail that all of these ships were armed with guns from 57 to 76,2 mm? And if there had been timely detection and target designation, BeKam would have had no chance. And then what is better than a 152 mm gun, the shell of which will also fly for a couple of tens of seconds from the shot? Yes, nothing, except that it can already fly into the ship. And another little thing, where to shoot if there is a ship between the gun and the fireship? Even a howitzer shell does not fall strictly vertically, but here a cannon shell does.

              Quote: glory1974
              In the same way, our admirals do not know history and do not trust their fellow citizens. And in the United States in 1941, during the Battle of the Atlantic, they were faced with a shortage of anti-aircraft ships, and turned to people for help. Thousands responded, went out into the ocean on patrol, discovered fascist boats and they radioed to the coast guard. Ernest Hemiguay also went out on his boat, do you know that one?
              Oooh, they reported - there was near-zero efficiency. However, Hemiguay may not have it, but Hemiguay certainly does. And another little thing - it’s difficult to confuse a submarine with a boat, but a boat with a boat is very easy to sink a boat with volunteers.

              Quote: glory1974
              The dipole does not suppress the radar signal, but produces a large cloud of illumination in which the target is lost. The satellite communication signal is broadband and can only be suppressed by targeted interference.
              What are you saying, why is the target lost in this cloud? Is it because the radio signal was reflected from the dipoles, instead of being reflected from the target? And how does this differ from jamming? And why can’t a signal from a satellite be reflected from dipoles without reaching the terminal? Why? Well, about the “broadband” signal - what is the transmission/reception bandwidth, please announce the entire list.

              Quote: glory1974
              That’s why they travel with a “nuclear suitcase” and are not afraid that it will be suppressed.
              Yeah, with “nuclear suitcases” they only go to places where dipoles are shot and jammed.
              Sorry, but discussing with a person who has such “attention” to “trifles” is counterproductive.
              1. 0
                21 February 2024 13: 10
                I am writing about the fastest possible measures that can literally be used now, even with the current leadership of the Black Sea Fleet.

                What measures? Use standard tools that are already available? Do you think someone prohibits the use of regular ones? The problem is that the regular ones don't work. This is what Sokolov could not understand, and you are following the same path.
                the echo sounder works in depth, not in width, and BaKi - they float on top.

                This comment made my day! And of course it didn’t occur to you to expand it wide. Clearly, it won’t work. The waves emitted by the echo sounder will probably drown wassat
                Are you not aware of such a little thing that all of these ships were armed with guns from 57 to 76,2 mm? And if there had been timely detection and target designation, BeKam would have had no chance. And then what is better than a 152 mm gun, the shell of which will also fly for a couple of tens of seconds from the shot?

                Not a single back was destroyed by this caliber. You probably haven’t heard about the “Krasnopol” complex either. It has laser target designation and can hit a moving target. One shot, one target.
                They reported that there was near-zero efficiency.

                80 years have passed since those times. Each boat has equipment that was previously not available to every destroyer.
                Why is the target lost in this cloud? Is it because the radio signal was reflected from the dipoles, instead of being reflected from the target? And how is this different from jamming?

                Silencing is different from reflection. It’s like silencing and reflecting. In general, the first lecture in the 1st year, when the conceptual apparatus is developed.
                1. 0
                  21 February 2024 13: 29
                  Quote: glory1974
                  And of course it didn’t occur to you to expand it wide. Clearly, it won’t work. The waves emitted by the echo sounder will probably drown

                  In principle, this is enough to assess your level...
                  1. 0
                    21 February 2024 14: 06
                    And what level? For example, you criticize, but you didn’t even bother to study the topic, at least read about side-view echo sounders, how they can work without the background of the bottom. What is your level?
                    1. 0
                      21 February 2024 14: 38
                      Quote: glory1974
                      And what level? For example, you criticize, but you didn’t even bother to study the topic, at least read about side-view echo sounders, how they can work without the background of the bottom. What is your level?

                      Why study nonsense? Well, a side-view echo sounder, but the fact that it has a limited angle of view is a trifle? Not counting the fact that BeK is a surface target.
                      Sorry, but I think your proposals are downright stupid.
                      1. 0
                        26 February 2024 09: 57
                        The BeK is a semi-submersible target. It has an antenna and a video camera on the surface. In addition, in Ukraine there are fully submersible backs. They were used to attack the Crimean Bridge. In addition, it is possible to install an intelligent guidance system, similar to the one we have on the Lancets. In this case, even if you drown out the Starlink, there will be no sense. The radar on the surface may also not detect it, or it will see it at a short range.
                        Back is not some super new weapon. They are similar to torpedoes, or self-propelled mines, as they were originally called, and methods of combating and detecting them have been developed. All that remains is to repeat it at a new technological level.
                        The basis of detection means is hydroacoustic stations, hydrophones, which are based on the principle of echolocation. How the main means of detection, used for 100 years, can be stupid, I cannot understand.
                      2. 0
                        26 February 2024 14: 29
                        Quote: glory1974
                        The BeK is a semi-submersible target. It has an antenna and a video camera on the surface.

                        Being unmanned and having a low silhouette does not yet make a boat semi-submersible. And in the example of “Magur”, and all the BeKs that somehow showed up in attacks, this is clearly visible. But you use it without understanding the meaning of the word “semi-submersible”.

                        Quote: glory1974
                        In addition, in Ukraine there are fully submersible backs. They were used to attack the Crimean Bridge.
                        No, they didn't. You didn't bother to check it. And just in case, fully submersible BeKs are AUVs - autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicles, not boats.

                        Quote: glory1974
                        They are similar to torpedoes, or self-propelled mines, as they were originally called, and methods of combating and detecting them have been developed. All that remains is to repeat it at a new technological level.

                        You don’t understand the simplest thing, the BACs used by the Navy are surface-mounted, low-visibility boats running quietly.

                        Quote: glory1974
                        The basis of detection means is hydroacoustic stations, hydrophones, which are based on the principle of echolocation... ...How the main means of detection, used for 100 years, can be stupid, I cannot understand.
                        And again, ignorance of basic things. Because in addition to active sonar, passive noise direction finding is also used, which gives a significantly greater detection range of a noisy target. And surface targets, which include Ukrainian ones. BeKi can only be detected by passive noise direction finding. As well as torpedoes at long ranges. Well, the hydrophone is strictly a passive device.
                        So there is no need to cover up your personal stupidity with things you don’t understand at all.

                        In general, stupidity about echo sounders placed on their sides, stupidity about Krasnopoli, stupidity about the impossibility of jamming satellite communications with passive interference.
                      3. 0
                        1 March 2024 09: 30
                        ignorance of basic things. Because in addition to active sonar, passive noise direction finding is also used,

                        Well, the hydrophone is strictly a passive device.

                        Full confusion.
                        And surface targets, which include Ukrainian ones. BeKi can only be detected by passive noise direction finding. As well as torpedoes at long ranges.

                        Do you also have torpedoes as surface targets?
                        There’s no need to cover up your personal stupidity with things you don’t understand at all

                        This is yes.
                        side-mounted echo sounders

                        Is that what you call side-scan echo sounders? wassat
                        nonsense about the impossibility of jamming satellite communications with passive interference.

                        This is absolutely a gem. If you prove that satellite communications can be jammed by passive interference, you will receive a Nobel Prize.
                        In general, you, in principle, did not hide your level, you immediately wrote that you are not an expert in what you are writing about. But why blame your opponent for something you don’t understand yourself?
                      4. 0
                        1 March 2024 10: 42
                        Quote: glory1974
                        But why blame your opponent for something you don’t understand yourself?

                        Yes, you are basically zero in this topic...
                        Otherwise they wouldn't have written this:
                        Quote: glory1974
                        The BeK is a semi-submersible target. It has an antenna and a video camera on the surface. In addition, in Ukraine there are fully submersible backs. They were used to attack the Crimean Bridge.

                        And this:
                        Quote: glory1974
                        The basis of detection means is hydroacoustic stations, hydrophones, which are based on the principle of echolocation.

                        You are so wrong that you imagine that the hydrophone is based on echolocation. And they didn’t give a damn about the fact that noise direction finding is purely listening to sounds and, accordingly, has nothing to do with echolocation. Much like radio direction finding and radar.


                        Quote: glory1974
                        Do you also have torpedoes as surface targets?
                        Well, you just don’t see what’s not interesting to you, that’s how much you understand the topic (not at all)
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        As well as torpedoes at long ranges.

                        To the distant ones! No echolocation can detect a torpedo at a distance of 5 km, only noise direction finding.


                        Quote: glory1974
                        This is absolutely a gem. If you prove that satellite communications can be jammed by passive interference, you will receive a Nobel Prize.
                        I’ll try to give you a simple example, maybe you’ll understand, but what am I talking about?
                        Place a metal basin over a household satellite dish (passive interference) and enjoy the absence of a signal.

                        Quote: glory1974
                        Is that what you call side-scan echo sounders? wassat
                        Yes, even with a perpendicular view, civilians are no longer effective beyond a couple of three or five hundred meters, which means they are meaningless against a high-speed target. And against a surface target they are ineffective at any distance.

                        Once again, I no longer consider you simply incompetent, even compared to me, in the issues raised. I already think you’re not very smart at all in even the simplest topics.
              2. -1
                21 February 2024 13: 14
                By the way. The new command has already announced that it will use aviation to fight the backs. KA-27, 29 helicopters. The truth about the fact that they have been used since last year, with a known result, was modestly kept silent. They also said nothing about changes on the ships. I hope they are preparing a surprise for the Ukrainians and Britons.
  10. +1
    19 February 2024 11: 04
    Admirals are admirals, but on any ship there is a captain who is always in place, and he is personally responsible for the tactical means of accomplishing the task, while possessing powers that no land unit commander has.
    What prevents him from deciding to move in a zigzag?
    Is anyone saving on diesel fuel? Sound the alarm, call people names and spit like the late Prigogine, but don’t nod your head or click your heels. You must take care of the ship with its sailors, and not someone’s greedy pride. Borrow 4-5 drones with thermal imagers from the ground forces, train operators and conduct reconnaissance around the clock.
    Or is initiative not welcomed in the navy? Transfer all unwelcoming admirals to heads of the library (there was such an admiral in recent history).
    1. +1
      20 February 2024 04: 44
      Quote: faterdom
      Admirals are admirals, but on any ship there is a captain who is always in place, and he is personally responsible for the tactical means of accomplishing the task, while possessing powers that no land unit commander has.

      For a long time I avoided your comment, but not because it is empty, on the contrary, it is very important! I was just being careful.
      Precisely, it is the commander who is the king and god on the ship entrusted to him. And some of the methods and techniques collected and proposed by me are designed to be used even by not a brave, but at least not a cowardly commander!
      1. +2
        20 February 2024 11: 29
        In the delta of the North. Dvina near Arkhangelsk (very complex, helmsman Ryabov and the Swedes won’t let you lie) in the 18th century, the crew ran aground and ruined a newly built frigate.
        The captain and all the officers were demoted, and the entire crew was sent to hard labor. Although, if we take the current legislation, the majority, of course, are not personally guilty.
        Just the loss of an expensive, brand new warship out of the blue without war or an enemy was appreciated. The British, at the same time and under such circumstances, would have hanged those on the mainsail and at the helm. For a long time under investigation, the Tsushima naval commanders shifted the blame onto each other and onto the dead.
        And now it is also reflected in blatant irresponsibility, which, apparently, has raised managers instead of brave combat commanders.
        And further. Many have been coming out of submariners for decades to senior positions in naval leadership.
        Without question, they are courageous and responsible people, experienced, but the tactics are completely different from those of the surface one, one might say a related, different specialty. And if for a boat to freeze in the depths means to become invisible, then for a surface ship, especially a larger one, it will make itself an easy target.
        1. 0
          20 February 2024 11: 44
          Quote: faterdom
          In the delta of the North. Dvina near Arkhangelsk (very complex, helmsman Ryabov and the Swedes won’t let you lie) in the 18th century, the crew ran aground and ruined a newly built frigate.
          The captain and all the officers were demoted, and the entire crew was sent to hard labor. Although, if we take the current legislation, the majority, of course, are not personally guilty.

          In terms of the rank and file, it’s a bit harsh, of course, but overall it’s understandable. In general, there are also recent examples:
          In mid-December, the Northern Fleet Commander Vice-Admiral Golovko 1942, with pain in his heart, as he writes in his memoirs, signed an order: stop the search for "Smashing", consider the ship dead.
          Were brought to court Kurileh, Rudakov, Kalmykov, Isaenko. The navigator, signalman and lukpoy sent to the penal platoon. The commander of the ship Kurilekh was shot.
          But this is pure cowardice.
          https://topwar.ru/18411-istoriya-tragedii-esminca-sokrushitelnyy.html?ysclid=lsu44ujucb501974967

          Quote: faterdom
          And further. Many have been coming out of submariners for decades to senior positions in naval leadership.
          Without question, they are courageous and responsible people, experienced, but the tactics are completely different from those of the surface one, one might say a related, different specialty. And if for a boat to freeze in the depths means to become invisible, then for a surface ship, especially a larger one, it will make itself an easy target.

          An interesting idea, of course, I myself consider submariners to be the strongest in spirit and prepared for independent action, but it is not at all obvious that it was precisely such submariners who made it to the top.
  11. +7
    19 February 2024 11: 15
    The author, as is traditional for today’s site, has absolutely no idea what he is writing about, in particular, the mechanism of action of dipole reflectors. The dipole, in order to create interference, must be tuned to resonance with the frequency of the radiation. To do this, its length is selected slightly less than the length of the suppressed transmitting station. The projectiles of the PK-16 (RUPP-82) jammer complex, inherited by the fleet since distant Soviet times, contain dipoles designed to interfere with missile homing heads and cannot create any interference for the communication channel between the satellite and an unmanned boat, because the radio wave ranges completely wounded. To do this, it is necessary to create new projectiles with different dipole sizes.
    1. -2
      19 February 2024 11: 30
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The author, as is traditional for today’s site, has absolutely no idea what he is writing about, in particular, the mechanism of action of dipole reflectors.

      I can imagine a little.
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The dipole, in order to create interference, must be tuned to resonance with the frequency of the radiation. To do this, its length is selected slightly less than the length of the suppressed transmitting station.

      About half.
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The projectiles of the PK-16 (RUPP-82) jammer complex, inherited by the fleet since distant Soviet times, contain dipoles designed to interfere with missile homing heads and cannot create any interference for the communication channel between the satellite and an unmanned boat, because the radio wave ranges completely wounded.
      Even rain interferes with the reception and transmission of AT Starlink. And here a cloud of completely radio-opaque elements will resist not radar pulses, but an information-rich, yet low-power signal. And yes, it’s a funny coincidence that the wavelengths used by Starlink are 2 cm plus/minus, approximately like the ARLGSN of many anti-ship missiles. wink
      Thank you for your critical but to the point comment!
      1. +3
        19 February 2024 15: 42
        And yes, it’s a funny coincidence that the wavelengths used by Starlink are 2 cm plus/minus

        The bands 10,7–12,7 GHz and 37,5–42,5 GHz are used to transmit data from Starlink satellites to ground terminal 17,8. The bands 18,6-18,8 GHz, 19,3-37,5 GHz and 42,5-14 GHz are used for satellite-to-gateway transmission. Transmission from the terminal back to the satellites in orbit occurs in the bands 14,5–47,2 GHz, 50,2–50,4 GHz and 51,4–27,5 GHz. The bands 29,1-29,5 GHz, 30-47,2 GHz, 50,2-50,4 GHz and 51,4-51,4 GHz are used to send information from the gateways back to the satellites. These are the frequencies that are publicly available. 0,58 GHz is already a millimeter range - XNUMX mm.
        As you can see, the “plus or minus” is very large. But there may also be frequencies that are not “voiced”.
        So “Starlink” your shooting with dipoles is “off the charts”.
        And about the “cloud of completely radio-opaque elements”. That “cloud” that is in your photo is not dipoles, these are infrared elements (torch-parachute) for interfering with the infrared seeker of the A3-TST-60U projectile. This “cloud” lasts up to 80 seconds in calm weather. And the “cloud” of dipoles of the A3-TSP-60U projectile is not at all so dense and lasts for a maximum of ten minutes in the absence of wind. In windy weather, the “working” time is correspondingly reduced significantly.
        1. -1
          19 February 2024 17: 03
          Quote: Dekabrist
          51,4 GHz is already a millimeter range - 0,58 mm.

          Someone deceived you, because the calculator gives 5,8 mm, i.e. 0,5 cm.
          Yet again:
          The length of the dipoles and their thickness are chosen so as to ensure effective scattering of radio waves over as wide a range of frequencies as possible. As a rule, their length is approximately equal to half the wavelength of the suppressed radar. However, dipoles are used whose length significantly exceeds the radar wavelength.

          https://studfile.net/preview/1691090/page:2/
          Quote: Dekabrist
          That “cloud” that is in your photo is not dipoles, these are infrared elements (torch-parachute) for interfering with the infrared seeker of the A3-TST-60U projectile.

          What I wrote about in the article, and specifically drew attention to this in the first comment.
          In windy weather, the “working” time is correspondingly reduced significantly. Even a minute is a lot.
          1. +1
            19 February 2024 19: 14
            Someone deceived you

            The keyboard is a typo, instead of cm I wrote mm, it doesn’t change the essence.
            The length of the dipoles and their thickness are selected to ensure effective scattering of radio waves over a wider frequency range if possible.

            Absolutely correct. The dipole reflectors of the A3-TSP-60U projectile operate in the wavelength range ranging from 2 to 12 cm. Almost the entire frequency range of the Starlink terminal is outside these limits.
            By the way, try to find out what transparency windows and radio wave absorption windows are, especially MMD, then you will immediately understand why these particular frequencies were chosen for Starlink’s operation.
            1. -1
              20 February 2024 04: 08
              Quote: Dekabrist
              Absolutely correct. The dipole reflectors of the A3-TSP-60U projectile operate in the wavelength range ranging from 2 to 12 cm. Almost the entire frequency range of the Starlink terminal is outside these limits.
              Oh, you and I read the same sources hi , though you are not all the way through. Because “operate in the range” does not mean that it does not work below this range, it means that tests to counteract radar with a shorter wavelength were not carried out, due to lack of need! Do you know why? Because a dipole that is arbitrarily longer than a half-wave is excellent, well, a little worse in fact, but just a little, it copes with its responsibilities. And a dipole with a length that is a multiple of a half-wave also works better than an ideal half-wave.
              It’s just that the essence of the half-wave problem is to place as many dipoles as possible into the finite volume of the warhead, because there will be fewer long ones than short ones.

              Quote: Dekabrist
              By the way, try to find out what transparency windows and radio wave absorption windows are, especially MMD, then you will immediately understand why these particular frequencies were chosen for Starlink’s operation.
              What does the radio transparency of the atmosphere have to do with the EPR cloud of metal/metallized dipoles? Is this a normal natural atmospheric phenomenon?

              Quote: Dekabrist
              The keyboard is a typo, instead of cm I wrote mm, it doesn’t change the essence.

              As is already clear, it doesn’t change at all, hi though for a different reason. wink
  12. -2
    19 February 2024 11: 39
    One gets the impression that our Black Sea Fleet now adheres only to defensive tactics, and in this way we will not win the campaign at sea. I agree with the author of the article on technical measures to counter beks
  13. -3
    19 February 2024 11: 44
    Since the Houthis are not afraid of anyone, then the US UAVs that are hanging around near Crimea need to be attacked by the Houthis. You can go directly to the base in Italy
  14. -3
    19 February 2024 11: 52
    I will continue, if a country is known to be selling drones to the outskirts and pointing them at our ships, it must be warned that in essence it is at war with Russia and we are ready to use our weapons against its fleet. We will not win the war only by defense. Questions for our management How long?
    1. +1
      19 February 2024 12: 25
      We don’t even have a state of war with Ukraine, like the fleets of our Western partners. Everything there is untouchable. Here we have a high-ranking official, Igor Shuvalov, who filed a lawsuit in London, saying that the sanctions were imposed in vain. And most importantly, he’s not shy about anything. He has to take his dogs to London on private planes. Former governor Ovsyannikov is worried about capital there, good people. Pure patriots. And you sink the French fleet.
      1. -3
        19 February 2024 12: 41
        I'm not suggesting a legal declaration of war, but there are more sophisticated methods. For example: somewhere in the vastness of the world's oceans, drones emerge from a container ship under a neutral flag and sink a warship, and everyone throws up their hands: who sank it, where did the drones come from? We need to act more subtly!
  15. +3
    19 February 2024 12: 55
    Vladimir, thank you for once again raising this topic. I read the article and comments - there are some brief thoughts.
    On re-equipment of ships.
    From my own experience. Being the first mate at the bpk pr. 1134a, I dealt with this issue in 87-88.
    There was a corresponding command directive.
    Within 3-4 days:
    - received with art. warehouses 2 "Utesa" and b/z; - welder from rem. the BC-5 team welded the brackets on the wings of the signal bridge sideways;
    - set up storage places in a camp style.
    And this is in peacetime, without haste.
    Summary - there would be will and desire.
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 14: 37
      Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
      Vladimir, thank you for once again raising this topic.
      hi
      Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
      Within 3-4 days:
      - received with art. warehouses 2 "Utesa" and b/z; - welder from rem. the BC-5 team welded the brackets on the wings of the signal bridge sideways;
      - set up storage places in a camp style.
      And this is in peacetime, without haste.

      If you don't mind, do you remember the reason for such modernization?
      1. +3
        19 February 2024 16: 11
        I agree with Dekabrist in the technical part regarding DO (dipole reflectors), but disagree with the form of communication.
        According to DO.
        Starlink on an object works in two ranges: approximately 3 cm and 0,7 cm. Based on this, the size should be DO.
        You can scatter it from an aircraft or deploy it from a ship complex.
        Questions:
        - how much DO is needed to cover the entire field of action of BeK;
        - lifetime of the DO field;
        For the PK-16 and on the new ones, there is probably a 3 cm DO (Harpoon seeker), but 0,7 cm is the question.
        Regarding ship systems (I am not considering creating a new one).
        As an additional option, modify the RBU:
        - equipping the RSL warhead with appropriate dipoles and a remote fuse;
        - PSA - calculation of detonation at a certain point of the ballistic trajectory.

        According to the installation of "Cliffs" the starting point is the Falklands crisis of 82 + boats in the Middle East.
        1. -2
          19 February 2024 17: 25
          Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
          I agree with Dekabrist in the technical part regarding DO (dipole reflectors), but disagree with the form of communication.

          It’s a tolerable form, not without an ulcer, but it doesn’t bother me, but technically my opponent is wrong.
          Because:
          The length of the dipoles and their thickness are chosen so as to ensure effective scattering of radio waves over as wide a range of frequencies as possible. As a rule, their length is approximately equal to half the wavelength of the suppressed radar. However, dipoles are used whose length significantly exceeds the radar wavelength.

          https://studfile.net/preview/1691090/page:2/

          Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
          - how much DO is needed to cover the entire field of action of BeK;

          This is already a difficult question for me, but judging by the sources, the radius of dispersion of dipoles and at the same time the density of the cloud is much higher than that of the projectiles of IR jammers. Simply due to the fact that dipoles are not always foil, but a polymer film with a coating and the number of units per pack (aviation, unknown weight) is from tens of thousands to millions. The warhead of the radar jamming projectile is several kilograms, the AZ-TSP-60U projectile is 1,7 kg.

          Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
          According to the installation of "Cliffs" the starting point is the Falklands crisis of 82 + boats in the Middle East.
          That's right, the Falklands, the English had a failure with close-range air defense. But I don’t know about the boats, I only remember the oldest “Cole”, and this is 2000.

          Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
          As an additional option, modify the RBU:
          - equipping the RSL warhead with appropriate dipoles and a remote fuse;
          Many in the comments suggest using the RSL almost for its intended purpose against BECs, only setting up an instant detonation.
          1. 0
            19 February 2024 18: 47
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
            According to the installation of "Cliffs" the starting point is the Falklands crisis of 82 + boats in the Middle East.
            That's right, the Falklands, the English had a failure with close-range air defense.

            "Cliffs" is not a solution at all. Put at least 10 on board with non-replaceable crews (calculate how much the crew will increase). This is only a means of destruction, and at the “last moment”, at a minimum distance. At 2 km they “don’t steer”, but at 500m it’s already “point-blank and at the last moment” at speeds of 60-80 km/h. You don't need to escape from this - you need to run. "Cliff" is the "last line" of defense.
            1. +2
              19 February 2024 18: 56
              I'll quote myself. Post editing time is now severely limited request
              Quote: Adrey
              "Cliff" is "The Last Frontier"defense.

              And here it is often presented as chief and almost the only one.
              With this approach we will go far...
              1. 0
                19 February 2024 19: 05
                Quote: Adrey
                Quote: Adrey
                "Cliff" is the "last line" of defense.

                I "bent" this. The last one is PTZ...
            2. +1
              19 February 2024 19: 29
              Using the example of the “Cliffs” installation, I simply showed that if you have the decision and will, this can be done very quickly and with available means.
              A CP machine gun is not the only possible solution, but it will increase the firepower of the ship.
              Now the ships are at peacetime level or slightly higher. Wartime staff 01, as a rule, increases the number of l / s from 15 to 25% and places are reserved for this. They slept only on bunks, they will also sleep on lockers.
              1. 0
                19 February 2024 19: 33
                Quote: Nikolay Kazakov
                Using the example of the “Cliffs” installation, I simply showed that if you have the decision and will, this can be done very quickly and with available means.
                A CP machine gun is not the only possible solution, but it will increase the firepower of the ship.
                Now the ships are at peacetime level or slightly higher. Wartime staff 01, as a rule, increases the number of l / s from 15 to 25% and places are reserved for this. They slept only on bunks, they will also sleep on lockers.

                With all due respect... what do states have to do with it, as well as firepower at dagger range? The problem is something else request
                1. +2
                  19 February 2024 20: 12
                  You suggested calculating how much the crew would increase. I considered and expressed my opinion that this is not significant. And installing machine gun command posts is a quick and easily implemented way to increase the fire performance of a ship. But, I agree, the main problem is the timely detection of BeK.
          2. +1
            19 February 2024 19: 31
            but technically the opponent is wrong.

            In addition to general phrases, you would be interested in the specific meanings of “a possibly wider range.” It is wide, only in the opposite direction.
            1. -3
              20 February 2024 04: 28
              Quote: Dekabrist
              In addition to general phrases, you would be interested in the specific meanings of “a possibly wider range.” It is wide, only in the opposite direction.

              Yes, already, see the answer to your comment above.
  16. +1
    19 February 2024 13: 11
    Quote......But the second idea is exactly what is needed, can be implemented extremely quickly and from what is available! Namely: shooting radar jamming shells (dipole reflectors) from the standard launchers of shipborne electronic warfare systems, which are on all (I’m sure, without exception) ships, and if suddenly not, then in the bases - of course....... .......
    Are you sure that the bases have all this? We may or may not have everything. In 2 years of war, I have never seen on video battles that our attacking tanks used smoke screens to protect themselves from enemy ATGMs. Perhaps they are simply not there either and the mortars on the towers are just for declaration. There is also the issue of mine danger. The fleet has practically nothing to protect against mines, Black Sea. I think the next stage is the deployment of sea mines using drones on the routes of Russian ships, both civilian and military. Such work with unmanned ships has already been carried out in the West. This means that the Krajina warriors will soon appear. This is also a big problem. There will be mines, there is no way to destroy them. Then it makes no sense at all to talk about any kind of shipping of Russian ships in the Black Sea.
    1. -1
      19 February 2024 14: 23
      Quote: cmax
      Are you sure that the bases have all this?

      This is standard equipment! And it’s really massive.

      Quote: cmax
      In 2 years of war, I have never seen on video battles that our attacking tanks used smoke screens to protect themselves from enemy ATGMs.
      In general, smoke was used several times, even in footage, especially with the T-90M, and I’m sure it is used by other vehicles.
  17. 0
    19 February 2024 14: 54
    Therefore, it is absolutely unclear why the BDK stood at night, without movement and without protection, within obvious reach of the fire ships, and even under the supervision of the Global Hawk,

    if the situation with the “slaughter” of several Black Fleet ships is regularly repeated, then this “means that someone needs it.” Nothing just happens. The relevant authorities need to carefully look into all this.
  18. -1
    19 February 2024 15: 26
    They have been talking about bonds since the beginning of the war. But apparently our sailors are simply not military sailors. They are: discipline, painting, washing, etc. Why organize reconnaissance? But to organize at least some kind of order for large ships - what is that? Ships shouldn't wander around alone. They should not spend the night at the same pier. All these NATO intelligence officers should have problems in the World Cup. Would you like me to give you a hint? A couple of hanging containers with coarse sand on the Su-30SM. And when this scout looks at the fish, apologize. So, by chance the sand woke up.
  19. BAI
    -4
    19 February 2024 16: 07
    If a US (NATO) reconnaissance aircraft appears in neutral space over the Black Sea, a Su 24, Il 114, Tu 95, or anyone else, with electronic warfare equipment, should appear next to it. If the Su 24 was able to jam the US Donald Cook, then it’s easier to jam the plane. Why is electronic warfare still not installed on aircraft?
    1. 0
      19 February 2024 17: 53
      Quote: BAI
      If a US (NATO) reconnaissance aircraft appears in neutral space over the Black Sea, a Su 24, Il 114, Tu 95, or anyone else, with electronic warfare equipment, should appear next to it. If the Su 24 was able to jam the US Donald Cook, then it’s easier to jam the plane. Why is electronic warfare still not installed on aircraft?

      Probably because we collect all the electronic components for this equipment all over the world, often illegally
    2. +3
      19 February 2024 18: 04
      Quote: BAI
      If a US (NATO) reconnaissance aircraft appears in neutral space over the Black Sea, a Su 24, Il 114, Tu 95, or anyone else, with electronic warfare equipment, should appear next to it. If the Su 24 was able to jam the US Donald Cook, then it’s easier to jam the plane. Why is electronic warfare still not installed on aircraft?
      1. -1
        19 February 2024 18: 18
        Quote: Tlauicol
        If the Su 24 was able to jam the US Donald Cook, then it’s easier to jam the plane

        Well, they didn’t sink, that’s not bad! wink
  20. +1
    20 February 2024 14: 30
    The Black Sea Fleet is very important: as soon as Ukraine loses on the land battlefield, it will have to restore its reputation by attacking the ships of this fleet. I think the Ukrainians would prefer that the Black Sea Fleet continue to exist, otherwise how will they advertise it in the West?
    1. +1
      20 February 2024 15: 42
      Quote from: 陈乐为
      The Black Sea Fleet is very important: as soon as Ukraine loses on the land battlefield, it will have to restore its reputation by attacking the ships of this fleet.

      The joke is sharp, yes. But there will be no Ukraine, but the Russian Black Sea Fleet will exist.
      1. 0
        20 February 2024 15: 53
        Well, Russia really needs to defeat Ukraine as soon as possible before all the boats turn into submarines... I admit, my words sounded harsh.
        Attack is the best defense.
  21. +1
    21 February 2024 12: 53
    Quote: ROSS 42
    I think and thought that it was time!!!
    It’s time to shoot down all these drones and “pilots” that provide data to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and ideally we need to deprive Ukraine of both the Black Sea coast, and places of storage of finished products (BEC), and places of production...
    What is needed here is effective and comprehensive reconnaissance...(someone is derailing the trains)...

    And in response, our partners will begin to shoot down passenger planes. Or does anyone doubt this?
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 03: 36
      Quote: Grossvater
      And in response, our partners will begin to shoot down passenger planes. Or does anyone doubt this?

      These scum can, of course, but in the Northern Military District zone, a very vast flight zone, there are no civilian vehicles at all, and the UAV can be written off, even if it’s a Patriot. And international flights... Even an idiot will know who shot it down.
  22. 0
    21 February 2024 12: 55
    Question for those who are in the know: don’t the acoustics catch these boats? There is a RBU, after all, to shoot torpedoes. But a torpedo is generally a much more difficult target.
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 03: 45
      Quote: Grossvater
      Question for those who are in the know: don’t the acoustics catch these boats? There is a RBU, after all, to shoot torpedoes. But a torpedo is generally a much more difficult target.

      It probably catches, especially those installed on specialized ASW ships and large ships from a frigate, but most likely at a short distance, when there is little time to react. But neither the RK, nor the MRK, nor the BDK have hydroacoustics, and the new anti-sabotage sonars are lowered Now, in my opinion, no, everything is old, non-working. A torpedo is an easier target to detect than a surface boat, which can also move at low speed, but a torpedo cannot.
  23. +1
    21 February 2024 13: 11
    You are writing an article for whom, for us sofa experts. We know how not to push or how to do it. For officers and admirals of the Black Sea Fleet. It's useless . They and how we graduated from a military school under the USSR. We remember what we taught before, but they forgot everything under the strict leadership of the General Staff of Laos, who are busy with a revolution in military affairs.
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 03: 48
      Quote from Deon59
      For officers and admirals of the Black Sea Fleet. It's useless .

      Commanders of ships, especially small ones, are people who, if something happens, will drown themselves. And the comrades on the small ships are definitely not stiff, to be honest, that’s the hope...
  24. 0
    21 February 2024 20: 40
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Therefore, searching for production sites will not yield anything - most likely.


    Reaper, from which Bendery’s unmanned boats received target designation, made in the USA,
    but for some reason you can’t shoot him down.
    The Houthis shot down a couple of Reapers, and they didn’t want to sneeze at anything.
    They have no common interests with their 'dear Western partners'.
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 03: 53
      Quote: Comrade Kim
      Bendery unmanned boats

      Bandera, dear comrade! hi
      Quote: Comrade Kim
      but for some reason you can’t shoot him down.
      I’m almost sure that there is no ban on this, but I’m one hundred percent sure that until there is a direct command from the Kremlin, comrades with wide stripes will be ashamed themselves...
      But by the way, if you look at the flight patterns, you can see that enemy reconnaissance aircraft are flying either near their borders or very close to their borders.